From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 17 04:46:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13937 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thyme.cisco.com (thyme.cisco.com [171.69.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13932 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shibumi@thyme.cisco.com) Received: from miranda-bsd.cisco.com (khoover-dhcp-171-69-112-70.cisco.com [171.69.112.70]) by thyme.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id EAA20996 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by miranda-bsd.cisco.com (8.8.8) id EAA06112; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:46:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901171246.EAA06112@miranda-bsd.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:02:03 MST." Reply-to: shibumi@cisco.com X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:46:32 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:02:03 MST, Sendmail channeled Wes Peters saying: > I can certainly build a FreeBSD box that will kick living hell out > of a 2500 for far less money, and run a web server, nntp cache, > mail server, and ftp server all on it at the same time. Anyone can bottom feed. I used to beat the 2500 on a 386 PC running KA9Q NOS two years before the 2500 was released. One of the original things I did with FreeBSD was to make a router-on-a-floppy build, which included NTP. However, if you're a bank or an oil company, you might be using different measurements than I was about what made a suitable router. I get a little tired of the "gold brick" line about Cisco routers. If you can find something that meets your needs thats less expensive (in terms of TCO), please go buy it. Its only that sort of pressure that can keep any company competitive. | Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | | Engineering Computer Services | | | Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | |===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| | "If you let your daughter learn French, you might just as well train her | | to become a whore" -- Friedrich Ludwig Jahn, leader of the | | Burschenschaften around 1818 | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 17 08:20:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01228 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01041 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 08:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04428; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:20:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36A20DB1.300F0846@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:20:01 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shibumi@cisco.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update References: <199901171246.EAA06112@miranda-bsd.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Kenton A. Hoover" wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:02:03 MST, Sendmail channeled Wes Peters saying: > > I can certainly build a FreeBSD box that will kick living hell out > > of a 2500 for far less money, and run a web server, nntp cache, > > mail server, and ftp server all on it at the same time. > > Anyone can bottom feed. I used to beat the 2500 on a 386 PC running KA9Q NOS > two years before the 2500 was released. One of the original things I did with > FreeBSD was to make a router-on-a-floppy build, which included NTP. However, > if you're a bank or an oil company, you might be using different measurements > than I was about what made a suitable router. And if you're a small insurance office or travel agency, you'll probably use different measurements than the bank or oil company. Remember, this article appeared in "Smart Reseller" magazine, which is addressed to exactly the sort of people who build and install systems for small businesses. In that context, I think having one box with all or most of your internet services on it, and a service contract from the vendor, will have the lowest TCO. > I get a little tired of the "gold brick" line about Cisco routers. If you can > find something that meets your needs thats less expensive (in terms of TCO), > please go buy it. Its only that sort of pressure that can keep any company > competitive. There's nothing wrong with being labelled "good, but expensive." Ask the engineers at Lexus. Or Mercedes-Benz. ;^) Personally, I've been surprised to see Cisco moving into the low end in the last few years. I guess it is to make sure they can offer solutions to an entire enterprise, and/or to offer low-end routers to ISPs and such who want to remain all-Cisco. Their low-end offerings like the 2500 series are competent, but awfully pricey for what you get. But, if you're a die-hard all-Cisco shop, what's an extra $1000 between friends, right? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 17 09:41:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07763 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nethammer.qad.org (nethammer.qad.org [195.211.170.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07758 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonas@nethammer.qad.org) Received: (from jonas@localhost) by nethammer.qad.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA27850 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:41:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jonas) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:41:08 +0100 From: Jonas Luster To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update Message-ID: <19990117184108.A27834@nethammer.qad.org> References: <369D9976.EE53D4E8@softweyr.com> <199901170133.RAA03310@miranda-bsd.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901170133.RAA03310@miranda-bsd.cisco.com>; from Kenton A. Hoover on Sat, Jan 16, 1999 at 05:33:16PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spoke Kenton A. Hoover: > You have a Linux box that will switch at OC-12 speeds available? No, but I have some Ascends and its FreeBSD-based-Development-System :) > (I do not speak for my employer...) (Neither do I :) jonas -- Freie Newsserver: http://nethammer.qad.org/freie.newsserver.php3 Pon-Gen ist immer noch eine jungendfreie Sache To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 17 12:40:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26331 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id VAA03752 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:40:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by campa.panke.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01547 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:50:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from wosch) Message-ID: <19990116185047.A1529@panke.de.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:50:47 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux PR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/pr/ [1]Linux Life [2]Linux. The Internet's Operating System. Linux PR There's a lot of great software and ideas in the Linux world. Most of it's free, and much of it is of a higher quality than its commercial counterparts. Although there is a good flow of information about new releases on Linux newsgroups and news sites, there is little exposure for these products in the popular press (although there have been many [3]reviews and articles about Linux in general lately). This site aims to encourage Linux developers and users to create press releases worthy of publication, and provide resources for general public relations. Why Write a Press Release? If you take a quick scan of the computer section of your local newspaper and most trade magazines you will notice that many articles (especially those announcing new products) are near-verbatim reprints of press releases. Some online journals go so far as to include the full PR header, with headline and datestamps. Conversely, press releases are designed with this in mind: catchy headlines are given to the publisher and the text of the release is often in the style of an article, with interesting anecdotes from "sources outside the company" or "satisfied users". Writing a press release can get you instant recognition outside of your usual developer and user communities. As increasing numbers of people move to using free software, the popular press is becoming a necessary way of getting new product information to potential users. After all, the press is there to report news to its readers, not to play patsy to commercial empires. If your product is of interest to a publication's readership, it is in their interest to publish an announcment about it, regardless of your product's licensing policies, packaging or sexual preference. How to Write a Press Release The first step is to learn how to write a decent press release. Here's some pointers: [4]Dr. Randall Hansen's Guide to Writing Successful Press Releases [5]Internet InfoScavenger Press Release Pointers [6]Writing Successful News Releases [7]Rules for Writing Press Releases [8]Microsoft's "Press Pass" [NEW] Example Linux Press Releases Here's some good examples of press releases which have been written for freely-available Linux software: * [9]Emacspeak-98 * [10]Samba 2.0 When to Write a Press Release One thing to note about Microsoft's "Press Pass" is the sheer volume of press releases coming from that company. It's no wonder their penetration into the popular press is so large. With anywhere up to ten press releases per day, it's no wonder that at least a few trickle into almost every computer publication on the planet. Write Press Releases often Some simple advice to infer from that would be to write press releases often, without expecting all of them to be published. Of course you don't want to spam global news services with information about every bugfix you release, but short, informative releases about new product features and other announcements, every few months, cannot go astray. I'd suggest that the main reason free software is not reported in a volume comparable to commercial software is not because the reporters are all lame and the press sites are all ruled by commercial pressures, but because they are unaware of the developments in the free software community. There is enough free software released that anyone not checking [11]Fresh Meat daily will miss most releases. You cannot expect every newpaper and trade magazine reporter to keep up to date with releases that even diehard Linux users can easily miss. Write Press Releases early (but not until you have a basic system working.) There is a lead in time of somewhere between a few months and a few years between when an idea is formed and when a product is implemented. Users also need this time to get ready for the technology that lies ahead. By announcing your product some time before the fully stable version is released, the marketplace can become accustomed to the idea that your product exists, and interested users can ready themselves to integrate it into their environment. Many developers of proprietary software announce features well before they are implemented. As a free software developer, you should not need to use this tactic. Get some code working, release some betas, then announce the imminent availability of the stable version and describe its features in detail. When the stable version is released, make a more complete announcement, reiterating the features and emphasising the current availability of the product. Write follow-up Press Releases for stable software If your free software product is mature, and only undergoes the occasional cleanup, there is no reason to rest on your laurels. There are many cases where a simple press release to the effect that your product provides some particular service or is provably reliable can be beneficial. For example, if a proprietary software company announces a planned product with features which have already reached maturity in your free product (a not uncommon occurrence in the free software community), then release a statement to that effect. For example, if you see a news item like: RANDOMSOFT CORP. ANNOUNCES PLANS FOR ACTIVE-EDGAR TO BRING EDGAR TECHNOLOGY TO THE DESKTOP and your mature free software product XEdgar has been doing this for a while, then write a press release along the lines of: JOHN HACKER BRINGS EDGAR TECHNOLOGY TO THE DESKTOP TODAY WITH XEDGAR or even LINUX BRINGS EDGAR TECHNOLOGY TO THE DESKTOP TODAY WITH XEDGAR repeatedly referring to the current availability and maturity of the product, while emphasizing all the whizz-bang features that make Edgar technology a must-have. Similarly, if the trade press are buzzing about some technology with which you are working, let people know. If you sit back silently thinking "hey, that's what I'm doing" when people are talking about how cool some feature would be, tell them. You may as well encourage people to use your product rather than let them wait a few years until they hear a large company announce their version. _________________________________________________________________ I've written my Press Release, now what? Tell the Linux Community One of the first things you'll do to get the message out is inform the general Linux community. You can (and should) do this early, even when your software is not quite stable, to get the message out (that your software exists) and encourage others to help develop it. [12]comp.os.linux.announce mail to [13]linux-announce@news.ornl.gov [14]Linux Today mail to [15]editors@linuxtoday.com or use the [16]online form. [17]Linux Weekly News mail to [18]lwn@lwn.net [19]Linux World mail to [20]lweditors@linuxworld.com [21]Fresh Meat [22]Slashdot.org [23]Web Resources at SSC [24]Linux Applications and Utilities Page mail to [25]blatura@xnet.com [26]Linux Documentation Project mail to [27]gregh@sunsite.unc.edu [28]Linux Links mail to [29]webmaster@linuxlinks.com You can find more sites, particularly indices for more specialised areas, at [30]Linux Life. Tell the Rest of the World This is of course what press releases are designed for, and in order to get the message out to the "Real World" you'll have to get in contact with the usual print and online magazines. The [31]Linux Advocacy mini-HOWTO suggests getting in touch with your local newspaper - chances are they'll be willing to publish your article, and possibly relay it to a larger news network. You should also consider having your press release translated into other languages. The [32]Linux Publicity Project writes and translates press releases. You may also be able to find volunteers from various countries among your users or development team to translate your press release and distribute it to local publications. Of course you should also send your press release to as many relevent online news services as possible. Here's some large news sites to start on (feel free to [33]send me more): [34]Business Wire, High Tech [35]32 Bits online [36]CMPnet [37]Infoworld [38]news.com [39]OS News [40]ZDNet anchordesk mail to [41]press_releases@anchordesk.com Search Engines And of course you'll want to add your site to some popular search engines. Here's some direct links to search engine submission forms. [42]Yahoo [43]AltaVista [44]Excite [45]Infoseek [46]Lycos _________________________________________________________________ Developing a project? Check out Linux Life's [47]Linux Development resources. _________________________________________________________________ If you have any ideas or suggestions for this article, please mail me, Conrad Parker, at [48]conradp@cse.unsw.edu.au. Credits Thanks to [49]Leonard Richardson for some great links and ideas. _________________________________________________________________ [50][LINK] [51]K's Place | [52]Code | [53]Linux Resources | [54]Random Maintained by [55]conradp@cse.unsw.edu.au. Last modified Fri Jan 15 1999 Developed on Linux. References 1. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/ 2. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/ 3. http://odin.appliedtheory.com/linux-activism/ 4. http://www.stetson.edu/~rhansen/prguide.html 5. http://www.infoscavenger.com/prtips.htm 6. http://www.mrb-pr.com/mrbnews.htm 7. http://www.andrea.com/rules.html 8. http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/ 9. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/pr/releases/emacspeak98.html 10. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/pr/releases/samba2.0.html 11. http://www.freshmeat.net/ 12. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/mjr/linux/cola.html 13. mailto:linux-announce@news.ornl.gov 14. http://www.linuxtoday.com/ 15. mailto:editors@linuxtoday.com 16. http://linuxtoday.com/contrib.pl 17. http://www.lwn.net/ 18. mailto:lwn@lwn.net 19. http://www.linuxworld.com/ 20. mailto:lweditors@linuxworld.com 21. http://freshmeat.net/ 22. http://slashdot.org/ 23. http://www.linuxresources.com/web.html 24. http://www.xnet.com/~blatura/linapps.shtml 25. mailto:blatura@xnet.com 26. http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/ 27. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/pr/gregh@sunsite.unc.edu 28. http://www.linuxlinks.com/ 29. mailto:webmaster@linuxlinks.com 30. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/ 31. http://www.datasync.com/~rogerspl/Advocacy-HOWTO.html 32. http://www.li.org/linfo/LPP/index.shtml 33. mailto:conradp@cse.unsw.edu.au 34. http://www.businesswire.com/hightechlink/ 35. http://www.32bitsonline.com/ 36. http://www.cmpnet.com/ 37. http://www.infoworld.com/ 38. http://www.news.com/ 39. http://www.osnews.com/ 40. http://www.zdnet.com/ 41. mailto:press_releases@anchordesk.com 42. http://www.yahoo.com/docs/info/include.html 43. http://www.altavista.digital.com/av/content/addurl.htm 44. http://www.excite.com/Info/add_url.html 45. http://www.infoseek.com/AddUrl?pg=Dcaddurl.html 46. http://www.lycos.com/addasite.html 47. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/development/ 48. mailto:conradp@cse.unsw.edu.au 49. http://crummy.home.ml.org/~leonard/ 50. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/ 51. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/ 52. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/code.html 53. http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux.html 54. http://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/conradp/rings/nav.cgi?ring=fractalmule&url=http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/&action=random 55. mailto:conradp@cse.unsw.edu.au -- Wolfram Schneider http://freebsd.org/~w/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 17 13:01:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29425 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thyme.cisco.com (thyme.cisco.com [171.69.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29420 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shibumi@thyme.cisco.com) Received: from miranda-bsd.cisco.com (khoover-dhcp-171-69-112-70.cisco.com [171.69.112.70]) by thyme.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA02189 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by miranda-bsd.cisco.com (8.8.8) id NAA08229; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:01:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901172101.NAA08229@miranda-bsd.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mentioned in SRO Update In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:20:01 MST." <36A20DB1.300F0846@softweyr.com> Reply-to: shibumi@cisco.com X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:01:24 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You're rather behind the times in terms of the low-end. Try the 76x and 77x products, or if you want something that actually runs real IOS, the 16xx. Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW are selling something other than cost effectiveness or TCO. Cisco isn't a brand in the same way that either of those companies are. On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:20:01 MST, Sendmail channeled Wes Peters saying: > There's nothing wrong with being labelled "good, but expensive." Ask > the engineers at Lexus. Or Mercedes-Benz. ;^) > > Personally, I've been surprised to see Cisco moving into the low end > in the last few years. I guess it is to make sure they can offer > solutions to an entire enterprise, and/or to offer low-end routers > to ISPs and such who want to remain all-Cisco. Their low-end offerings > like the 2500 series are competent, but awfully pricey for what you > get. But, if you're a die-hard all-Cisco shop, what's an extra $1000 > between friends, right? ;^) | Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | | Engineering Computer Services | | | Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | |===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| "What kind of people are you that can drown innocent people in concrete egg cups?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 19 07:08:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10111 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:08:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10103 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:08:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/best.sh) id HAA27602 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:08:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990119070822.A26584@best.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:08:22 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [lbf@umich.edu: GeeK: Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=liOOAslEiF7prFVr X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ok folks. Return your MS software now. :) -- Yan --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Forwarded message from ben Received: from proxy1.ba.best.com (root@proxy1.ba.best.com [206.184.139.12]) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with ESMTP id GAA25789 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:56:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from naughty.monkey.org (IDENT:sclerous@naughty.monkey.org [152.160.231.194]) by proxy1.ba.best.com (8.9.2/8.9.2/best.in) with ESMTP id GAA22841 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:54:43 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: geeks-outgoing@monkey.org Received: by naughty.monkey.org (VMailer, from userid 502) id CEB4B4AAB; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:54:08 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: geeks@monkey.org Received: by naughty.monkey.org (VMailer, from userid 1001) id CE4A78673; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:54:06 -0500 (EST) Delivered-To: geeks@monkey.org Received: from bonn.eecs.umich.edu (bonn.eecs.umich.edu 141.213.10.86) by naughty.monkey.org (VMailer) via SMTP id CEA028398; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lbf@localhost) by bonn.eecs.umich.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA21411 for geeks@monkey.org; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:40:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lbf) Message-ID: <19990119084011.A21400@umich.edu> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:40:11 -0500 From: ben To: geeks@monkey.org Subject: GeeK: Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: geeks-owner@monkey.org Precedence: bulk read and enjoy -- particularly the string of correspondence with toshiba (2nd link). ben ----- Forwarded message from voytek@sbt.net.au ----- From: voytek@sbt.net.au Subject: [Pilot-Unix] ot: Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:29:52 BestServHost: lists.best.com Errors-To: pilot-unix-errors@lists.best.com To: pilot-unix@lists.best.com perhaps a little off topic, but could well be relevant to all of us who use no windows, but are forced to pay for it with every PC: Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Posted by sengan on Monday January 18, @03:38PM from the that-EULA-can-be-useful dept. freejack writes "Here's an incredible story of how one Linux user got his money back for the Windows pre-installed on the laptop he bought. He used the fact the Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the software if you do not agree to its terms." http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/18/1539214.shtml and, the how-to-do-it kit is at: http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html voytek eymont sbt information systems 44 chippen street chippendale nsw 2008 www.sbt.net.au/links/ ----- End forwarded message ----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 20 10:28:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from leaf.lumiere.net (leaf.lumiere.net [207.218.152.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29471 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@leaf.lumiere.net) Received: (from j@localhost) by leaf.lumiere.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA06451; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:30:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:30:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jesse To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [lbf@umich.edu: GeeK: Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund] In-Reply-To: <19990119070822.A26584@best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No, return it on Feb 15th. :) Refund for Windows action Posted by sengan on Wednesday January 20, @12:09PM from the update-da-story dept. In an update on the windows refund story, BiGGO writes "Someone was quick enough to open a site about the EULA-refund trick. They are encouraging people who were forced to pay for Windows but never used it to ask for a refund on a special refund day, Feb 15th" 136 people have already joined them in the 24 hours since the site went live. --- Jesse http://www.lumiere.net/ On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Ok folks. > Return your MS software now. :) > > -- Yan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 04:55:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02192 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:55:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02179 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pb@ludd.luth.se) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (pb@father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA21022 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:55:01 +0100 From: Peter Brevik Received: (pb@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA26361 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:55:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: M$ refund.. To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:54:59 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG About getting refund on M$ os bundling. As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you have to pay for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an option in US ? /Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 05:53:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06791 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:53:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ska.bsn (d231.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06779 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 05:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00758; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:59:20 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990122005917.A747@ska.bsn> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:59:17 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. References: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se>; from Peter Brevik on Thu, Jan 21, 1999 at 01:54:59PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is this not an option in US ? > > /Peter I can't talk for the US being in Australia but I always buy from people who give you the option of not paying for a MS operating system. This usually means not buying from a big-name company but many suppliers assemble systems from quality parts at very reasonable rates. The whole license mess that's been uncovered seems to be far more of a problem for the larger Microsoft OEM customers who've simply shipped the Microsoft license agrement as part of their products without considering its implications to themselves (I'm sure they had people read it before shipping product [at least the first time] but they probably dismissed the possibility any consumer would reject the purchase based on the license, if they read it at all). The exact legal interpretation of the agreement is still open (AFAIK) but seems to allow the refund route if "product(s)" is interpretered to mean the Microsoft OS alone. That seems okay to me. I'm not even entitled to a refund so I can't be biased ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 07:10:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13486 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13479 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:10:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from magus@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.9.246] (helo=magus) by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 103Lkk-00071x-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:10:39 -0700 From: "Anthony Chavez" To: "FreeBSD-Advocacy Mailing List" Subject: RE: M$ refund.. Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:06:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be454f$90e03be0$f60946a6@magus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Peter Brevik > Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 5:55 AM > To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: M$ refund.. > > As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you > have to pay > for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. > And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an > option in US ? I live in the US, and I *ALWAYS* buy my computers in parts, and I've never been forced to buy MS Windows when I do so. However, I'm not sure if people who buy pre-packaged systems have to or not. -- "Do what keepeth thou from wilting shall be the loophole in the law." Anthony Chavez ICQ: 17901391 -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GCS/M/MU/S/TW d-()>---(++) s+:+>+:- a?>- C++++(---) UBS++++(+)>$ P+>+++++ L- E+++ W--(+) N+(+++) o? K? w---(+++)>$ O- M--(+)>$ V-- PS+++() PE Y+>++ PGP>+++ t---(+) 5-- X- R++* !tv b+>++ DI--- D---(++) G-() e+*>++++ h!>++ r>+++ y+++++** ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 07:12:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13831 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:12:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13826 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:12:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Mike.Jeays@statcan.ca) Received: from stcinet (stcinet.statcan.ca [142.206.128.146]) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.9.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA06014; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA20537; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:12:45 -0500; sender Mike.Jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from bora2.statcan.ca (bora2.statcan.ca [142.206.248.251]) by smtpshb.statcan.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18402; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:15:30 -0500 Received: from smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca by bora2.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id EAA29967; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 04:25:28 -0500 ; sender Mike.Jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca [142.205.132.248]) by smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26006; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:07:52 -0500 Received: from imap1a.statcan.ca (imap1a.statcan.ca [142.205.234.34]) by smtpsha.iusd.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25999; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:07:44 -0500 X-Internal-ID: 36A68657000007B5 Received: from a.statcan.ca (142.205.169.91) by imap1a.statcan.ca (NPlex 2.0.112); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:04:49 -0500 Message-ID: <36A73498.E467FBA5@a.statcan.ca> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:07:20 -0500 From: Mike Jeays Organization: Statistics Canada/Statistique Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Brevik CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. References: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In many cases, the computer manufacturer has made a deal with Microsoft that says they can re-sell MS software with machines at a very favourable price, but that they MUST provide it with ALL the machines they sell. Thus they are breaking their agreement if they sell machines without. The alternative is to go to small clone-makers, who often provide excellent service and assemble reliable machines to order - with or without MS products. One enterprising individual in Australia actually managed to get his money back! See below for more details. Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund Posted by sengan on Monday January 18, @03:38PM from the that-EULA-can-be-useful dept. freejack writes "Here's an incredible story of how one Linux user got his money back for the Windows pre-installed on the laptop he bought. He used the fact the Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the software if you do not agree to its terms." http://slashdot.org/articles/99/01/18/1539214.shtml and, the how-to-do-it kit is at: http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html Peter Brevik wrote: > > About getting refund on M$ os bundling. > > As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you have to pay > for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. > And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an option in US ? > > /Peter > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 08:53:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ime.net (ime.net [209.90.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25910 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4021.ime.net [209.90.195.31]) by ime.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06026; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990121114719.00c9c8f0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:13 -0500 To: Peter Brevik , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: M$ refund.. In-Reply-To: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:54 PM 1/21/99 +0100, Peter Brevik wrote: > > About getting refund on M$ os bundling. > >As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you have to pay >for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. >And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an option in US ? > > /Peter This is true for cases when you buy your machines in parts. My machine was built from high-grade Supermicro equipment, and it did not come with Windows. There are many companies here (I.e. Dell, Gateway 2000, etc) that have a binding contract with Microsoft. You have to have A copy of Windows come with the machine. Gateway 2000 offers an upgrade to NT 4 Workstation for something around 99 dollars during initial order of your machine. Microsoft locks in companies with cheaper rates on Windows bulk packs and licenses in many cases. Gateway 2000 is not able to ship their machines with Linux or with no operating system because of this bind with Microsoft. This in itself could vastly affect the possiblity of Alternative OSes (FreeBSD, et al) being available with a NEW PC. Microsoft sees the threat that Free UNIXes have proposed thusfar and is not likely to make it easy to move forward more. I think it's intriguing that something free is getting more media play lately than Microsoft paying for ad spots and getting into legal trouble. :-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 08:59:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26485 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:59:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pb@ludd.luth.se) Received: from father.ludd.luth.se (pb@father.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.18]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00313 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:59:07 +0100 From: Peter Brevik Received: (pb@localhost) by father.ludd.luth.se (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA05206 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:59:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199901211659.RAA05206@father.ludd.luth.se> Subject: M$ refund.. ,a possible circumvent? To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:59:05 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL15 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If the big companies are offering computers with M$ os only. Why not just use a small company for buying one's computers. As it seems you get things cheaper and at one's specification ? My reason to buy computer in parts is mainly I'm very determine on having the "right stuff" :). Like SCSI, soundcard & video supported by fbsd, many slots etc.. Many resellers at least in Sweden/Norway sell almost only IDE discs with their computers. Or SCSI at fantasy prices.. so usually the computer get bought at one place and the scsi stuff at another. Another thought is that if you must have M$ software bundled, it must be stored. And when you order a harddisc I haven't heard that you have to buy software bundled with the disc. So if one order the computer without storage media and place the media order separatly. Maybe one could circumvent the OS bundling ? /Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 10:14:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06922 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from atari.cmj.com (atari.cmj.com [206.215.141.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06916 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:14:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aaronc@atari.cmj.com) Received: from localhost (aaronc@localhost) by atari.cmj.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA03442; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from aaronc@atari.cmj.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:20:30 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Clow To: Drew Baxter cc: Peter Brevik , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990121114719.00c9c8f0@genesis.ispace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Drew Baxter wrote: > This is true for cases when you buy your machines in parts. My machine was > built from high-grade Supermicro equipment, and it did not come with Windows. I always buy in parts anyway (don't trust manufacturers to put the best parts in their computers, or to stay non-proprietary)... The case in question -- the person who got cash back for returning Microsoft -- was dealing with a laptop. It's easy to put a tower together yourself and avoid the Win95/98 bundling thingy, however, it's a little more difficult when you're trying to put a laptop together. 8) My roommate, who is a Linux junkie, bought his tower from VA Research (www.varesearch.com) and it came with Linux out of the box. He couldn't find a company to do the same with a laptop however... Aaron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 10:37:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09944 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@thneed.ubergeeks.com) Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23241; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:37:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@thneed.ubergeeks.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:39:06 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Peter Brevik cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. ,a possible circumvent? In-Reply-To: <199901211659.RAA05206@father.ludd.luth.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Peter Brevik wrote: > Another thought is that if you must have M$ software bundled, it must be > stored. And when you order a harddisc I haven't heard that you have to buy > software bundled with the disc. So if one order the computer without storage > media and place the media order separatly. Maybe one could circumvent the > OS bundling ? > > /Peter No, they'll still ship you media. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 12:25:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24255 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:25:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24232 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 103Qf5-0007gr-00; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:25:07 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA04187; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:24:39 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14547; Thu, 21 Jan 99 20:24:36 GMT Message-Id: <36A78CB3.8A4DE6A7@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:23:15 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. References: <4.1.19990121114719.00c9c8f0@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > > At 01:54 PM 1/21/99 +0100, Peter Brevik wrote: > > > > About getting refund on M$ os bundling. > > > >As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you have to pay > >for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. > >And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an option in US ? > > > > /Peter > > This is true for cases when you buy your machines in parts. My machine was > built from high-grade Supermicro equipment, and it did not come with Windows. > > There are many companies here (I.e. Dell, Gateway 2000, etc) that have a > binding contract with Microsoft. You have to have A copy of Windows come > with the machine. Gateway 2000 offers an upgrade to NT 4 Workstation for > something around 99 dollars during initial order of your machine. > > Microsoft locks in companies with cheaper rates on Windows bulk packs and > licenses in many cases. Gateway 2000 is not able to ship their machines > with Linux or with no operating system because of this bind with Microsoft. > This in itself could vastly affect the possiblity of Alternative OSes > (FreeBSD, et al) being available with a NEW PC. Microsoft sees the threat > that Free UNIXes have proposed thusfar and is not likely to make it easy to > move forward more. > Can you, or anyone, clarify something here. I seem to remember that this practice of binding PC suppliers into agreements whereby they _have_ to pre-install a copy of Windozw on _every_ PC they sell was ruled illegal in the US several years ago. Was it not the subject of another anti-trust suit against M$, that in part led to this current case because the DOJ claimed that M$ were not abiding by the earlier ruling and that was what the $1M per day "fine" they (the DOJ) were seeking was about?. BTW, I spell checked this e-mail and Netscape threw up "FreeBSD" as an unknown word. The _only_ suggestion it offered was "friends". Nice to know someone likes us :-) > I think it's intriguing that something free is getting more media play > lately than Microsoft paying for ad spots and getting into legal trouble. :-) > > --- > Drew "Droobie" Baxter > Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) > OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA > http://www.droo.orland.me.us > > PGP ID: 409A1F7D > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 21 17:22:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02040 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:22:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02030 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA13007; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:17:05 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36A7CAFD.E3F782EC@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:49:01 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jeays CC: Peter Brevik , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: M$ refund.. References: <199901211255.NAA26361@father.ludd.luth.se> <36A73498.E467FBA5@a.statcan.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Peter Brevik wrote: > > > > About getting refund on M$ os bundling. > > > > As I understood when you buy from US, M$ os get supplied, and you have to pay > > for it.. however, I have always bought my computer in parts in Sweden. > > And no one ever forced me to buy M$ os with it. Is this not an option in US ? What was the last time you bought a notebook in parts, for instance? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 22 13:18:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15130 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15124 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:18:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-60-240.nm.us.ibm.net [32.100.60.240]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA128680 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:18:29 GMT Message-ID: <36A8E975.CA69DBFF@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:11:17 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: FreeBSD in Nature's article] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------14E6223ADE9B309CCE3AA788" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------14E6223ADE9B309CCE3AA788 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wow... what a bold and brilliant initiative. Cheers to all concerned in its inception and how can we get them to write more about it??? --------------14E6223ADE9B309CCE3AA788 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from hub.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18] by in5.ibm.net id 917035119.216640-1 ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:58:39 +0000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00407 for www-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:44:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-www) Received: from kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br [143.106.51.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00393 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vazquez@iqm.unicamp.br) Received: by kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br (V-MTA, from userid 105) id C67973AD; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:43:44 -0200 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:43:44 -0200 From: Pedro A M Vazquez To: www@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in Nature's article Message-ID: <19990122174344.N53886@kalypso.iqm.unicamp.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-www@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://helix.nature.com/webmatters/tomog.html --------------14E6223ADE9B309CCE3AA788-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 22 15:51:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04107 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:51:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04102 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:51:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-60-213.nm.us.ibm.net [32.100.60.213]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA178274; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:51:38 GMT Message-ID: <36A90D62.2E4FDB7A@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:44:34 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: core@daemonnews.org CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon news Proofreaders References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman writes: >> PS: Is it only me or is the enthusiasm fading for our >> magazine?? >Looking at our stats, it is slowly fading.... However, there has been >some increased attention by some outside people. We are getting lots of >requests for mirror sites and such. The big problems is that we have more >outside writers this month than regular writers. Speaking for myself, my *enthusiasm* hasn't faded, but my time has. Actually, I should think it's a big plus that we have outside writers clamoring to speak their piece. That should speak many (mounted!) volumes about the fact that the effort has been well placed and well received. In fact, I think the whole BSD advocacy effort has done much in the last eight months (has it only been EIGHT MONTHS?). Jordan and WC have ben inspired to make stickers AND peachy-keeno plates for our computers, the core team is -RELEASEing more than ever, faster than ever, and there's actually legitimate talk started by DaemonNews towards re-merging he source trees among the BSDen. It is true that many of us have made promises and commitments we haven't kept or have been shouted down on, and I've been guilty as Original Sin. I just want to point to the incredible rise in the perception of BSD in the last eight months. Eight months ago, BSD was down there with Algol and PL-1 as dead, dead, dead. Now we even see LinuxWorld writing that FreeBSD is a better Linux than Linux. What does that tell you? Somebody's doing something right, and we should all be proud and reenergize ourselves to go write some code ...err, articles. Cheer yourselves, guys, and realize that there are enough of you who are dedicated to be making a real difference, and that's what counts. We who have less dedication or more obligations do what we can, and because we care we make our needles count when we stick them in. Please direct further cheers to -chat; this isn't the place for them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 22 18:11:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23361 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23356 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:11:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id DAA20790 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:11:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:11:10 +0100 (CET) From: Konrad Heuer To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA23357 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is it really true? Has time passed so quickly? My history with FreeBSD started some years ago with 2.0-RELEASE. Ok, I had read about FreeBSD 1.x some month before that time but I didn't try until someone lent me a second hard disk drive for some weeks shortly after 2.0 was released. On the first disk there was Slackware Linux at that time, and I didn't want to remove it for FreeBSD. Some weeks later, I removed it for FreeBSD. Although the big crisis of the FreeBSD project caused by the legal problems with NET/2 were overcome with 2.0 I still remember some rumors in the freebsd newsgroup. FreeBSD would soon be dead someone told and Linux would be the future. It didn't come so. Many people have done a lot for FreeBSD in the recent years, especially the core team and the developers. Thank you very much! But as we all know, concerning publicity FreeBSD is still too much behind Linux. Germany's computer magazine iX - formerly the `multiuser/multitasking magazine', now the `magazine for information technology', may be because it now also deals with NT (my guess :-) ) - has articles about `Linux and Multimedia', `Linux Compute-Cluster' and so on. I know, there's *one* problem we must solve by ourselves: writing articles! But the other problem is how to convince people to do something with FreeBSD and not with Linux. I don't know anything that can be done with FreeBSD but that can't in principle be done with Linux. I know there are things that can better be done by FreeBSD but outstanding people often only know Linux. In the moment, I work on a FreeBSD-driven printer server for someone. One of his first questions was: "Please, can't you do that with Linux?" I was in good position and answered: "I'll only do with FreeBSD!" Other people I know are still worried about the future of FreeBSD. They say: "Wouldn't it be safer to do that with Linux?" I'm very optimistic about FreeBSD. I also know people who made unsatisfying experiences with Linux and know wish to have started with FreeBSD instead. I don't want to be misunderstood. I see it would be dangerous to attack Linux in the public. Today, there's already too much commericial interest in Linux. RedHat has done a lot for Linux, but, to tell the truth, I'm happy there's no equivalent in the world of FreeBSD. It may also be better for FreeBSD not to gain the attention by Microsoft Linux gains. To come to an end and to come to the point, we nevertheless need to have some answers concerning the questions outstanding people have about FreeBSD and Linux (see before). I try, and I'd be happy about any idea or statement I hear or read about. My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is more familiar. 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete operating system. 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if system load is high. 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD behaves better. 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. Regards // // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _______ // Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ // Datenverarbeitung mbH GÖttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / // Am Faßberg, D-37077 GÖttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----- // http://www.freebsd.org // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 23 21:35:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14073 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:35:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from insomnia.local.net (arc1-63.netwalk.net [206.175.61.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14062 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from localhost (jmutter@localhost) by insomnia.local.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00818; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:35:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) X-Authentication-Warning: insomnia.local.net: jmutter owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:35:52 -0500 (EST) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jm7996@devrycols.edu To: Konrad Heuer cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA14063 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: > > 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. > 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is > more familiar. > 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete > operating system. > 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. > 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if > system load is high. > 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD > behaves better. > 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open > files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. Don't forget this one: 8. The Linux filesystem, ext2, is _evil_ and not to be trusted. > > Regards > > // > // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _______ > // Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ > // Datenverarbeitung mbH GÖttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / > // Am Faßberg, D-37077 GÖttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ > // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----- > // http://www.freebsd.org > // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de > // > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 23 22:41:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20963 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20958 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA22959; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:11:21 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id RAA47103; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:11:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:11:21 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: jm7996@devrycols.edu Cc: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Message-ID: <19990124171121.A36690@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from James A. Mutter on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 12:35:52AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 24 January 1999 at 0:35:52 -0500, James A. Mutter wrote: >> My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: >> >> 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. >> 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is >> more familiar. >> 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete >> operating system. >> 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. >> 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if >> system load is high. >> 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD >> behaves better. >> 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open >> files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. > > Don't forget this one: > 8. The Linux filesystem, ext2, is _evil_ and not to be trusted. I'd be a whole lot happier if people wouldn't make statements like this. If it's evil, explain. If you don't know any good reasons, don't spread misinformation. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message