From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 00:58:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03313 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from insomnia.local.net (arc1-63.netwalk.net [206.175.61.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03293 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from localhost (jmutter@localhost) by insomnia.local.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA00220; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 03:58:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) X-Authentication-Warning: insomnia.local.net: jmutter owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 03:58:32 -0500 (EST) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jm7996@devrycols.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: jm7996@devrycols.edu, Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-Reply-To: <19990124171121.A36690@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sunday, 24 January 1999 at 0:35:52 -0500, James A. Mutter wrote: > >> My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: > >> > >> 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. > >> 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is > >> more familiar. > >> 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete > >> operating system. > >> 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. > >> 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if > >> system load is high. > >> 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD > >> behaves better. > >> 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open > >> files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. > > > > Don't forget this one: > > 8. The Linux filesystem, ext2, is _evil_ and not to be trusted. > > I'd be a whole lot happier if people wouldn't make statements like > this. If it's evil, explain. If you don't know any good reasons, > don't spread misinformation. The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file systems due to this. It surprises me that the Linux vendors don't turn this 'feature' off by default. They could include in the doc's an explanation of why it's turned off and give the users instructions on how to turn it back on, if they like. Please correct me if I'm wrong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 01:46:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07259 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:46:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07252 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:46:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA23497; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:58 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id UAA47525; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:57 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:56 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: jm7996@devrycols.edu Cc: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Message-ID: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990124171121.A36690@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from James A. Mutter on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 03:58:32AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 24 January 1999 at 3:58:32 -0500, James A. Mutter wrote: >> On Sunday, 24 January 1999 at 0:35:52 -0500, James A. Mutter wrote: >>>> My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: >>>> >>>> 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. >>>> 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is >>>> more familiar. >>>> 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete >>>> operating system. >>>> 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. >>>> 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if >>>> system load is high. >>>> 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD >>>> behaves better. >>>> 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open >>>> files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. >>> >>> Don't forget this one: >>> 8. The Linux filesystem, ext2, is _evil_ and not to be trusted. >> >> I'd be a whole lot happier if people wouldn't make statements like >> this. If it's evil, explain. If you don't know any good reasons, >> don't spread misinformation. > > The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches > writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power > failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back > to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file > systems due to this. UFS does this too. > It surprises me that the Linux vendors don't turn this 'feature' off by > default. They could include in the doc's an explanation of why it's > turned off and give the users instructions on how to turn it back on, if > they like. I don't know if it's possible to turn it off in Linux. You can't turn it off in UFS either. In fact, the manner in which disk writes are cached is pretty central to FreeBSD's performance. > Please correct me if I'm wrong. The only ``file system'' I know which doesn't cache significantly is Microsoft's DOS file system. The performance is correspondingly bad. I think you've made my point. This ``evil'' feature of ext2fs was probably borrowed, at least in concept, from BSD's UFS. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 01:54:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07693 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:54:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [208.221.12.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07686 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17434; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:49:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: jm7996@devrycols.edu, Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:56 +1030." <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:49:14 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>> I'd be a whole lot happier if people wouldn't make statements like >>> this. If it's evil, explain. If you don't know any good reasons, >>> don't spread misinformation. >> >> The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches >> writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power >> failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back >> to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file >> systems due to this. > >UFS does this too. Uh, he's talking about metadata, and no FFS does not cache metadata writes by default. >> It surprises me that the Linux vendors don't turn this 'feature' off by >> default. They could include in the doc's an explanation of why it's >> turned off and give the users instructions on how to turn it back on, if >> they like. > >I don't know if it's possible to turn it off in Linux. You can't turn >it off in UFS either. In fact, the manner in which disk writes are >cached is pretty central to FreeBSD's performance. Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance wasn't very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs is "fast and loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside of making ext2fs filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a system crash or power failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is much slower as a result. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 02:22:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10596 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:22:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA10590 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:22:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17890; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:25:34 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:25:33 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 01:49:14AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 01:49:14AM -0800, David Greenman wrote: > >>> I'd be a whole lot happier if people wouldn't make statements like > >>> this. If it's evil, explain. If you don't know any good reasons, > >>> don't spread misinformation. > >> > >> The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches > >> writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power > >> failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back > >> to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file > >> systems due to this. > > > >UFS does this too. > > Uh, he's talking about metadata, and no FFS does not cache metadata > writes by default. we, those on comp..freebsd.misc have had this discussion before, please don;t tell terry were on again for 12 rounds. its not terry i an worried about its teh rest of the people who had such convincing opinion about why he was so wrong. otherwise it was a very interesting discussion, i learnt a lot, just to keep up. > >> It surprises me that the Linux vendors don't turn this 'feature' off by > >> default. They could include in the doc's an explanation of why it's > >> turned off and give the users instructions on how to turn it back on, if > >> they like. > > > >I don't know if it's possible to turn it off in Linux. You can't turn > >it off in UFS either. In fact, the manner in which disk writes are > >cached is pretty central to FreeBSD's performance. > > Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance wasn't > very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs is "fast and > loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside of making ext2fs > filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a system crash or power > failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is much slower as a result. ok to laod gun, just please don't shoot just yet. is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is freebsd going to evolve such a creature ? what would teh arguments be one way ot the other, please. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 02:46:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12805 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [208.221.12.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12800 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17862; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:42:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901241042.CAA17862@implode.root.com> To: jonathan michaels cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:25:33 +1100." <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:42:05 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance wasn't >> very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs is "fast and >> loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside of making ext2fs >> filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a system crash or power >> failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is much slower as a result. > >ok to laod gun, just please don't shoot just yet. > >is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is freebsd >going to evolve such a creature ? > >what would teh arguments be one way ot the other, please. Softupdates is a thing that Kirk McKusick developed for FFS, based on work by Greg Ganger, that manages a sophisticated set of metadata dependencies such that metadata writes can be defered without danger of filesystem corruption if the system should crash or lose power. It's sort of a new and improved FFS and is not related to journaling/log-structured filesystems. FFS with softupdates is believed to be at least as fast as LFS without any of the downside of LFS (such as the need to do a periodic cleanup pass). -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 02:48:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13103 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:48:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13096 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.15]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA33AD; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:48:08 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:56:38 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: jonathan michaels Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 01:49:14AM -0800, David Greenman wrote: >> Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance >> wasn't very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs >> is "fast and loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside >> of making ext2fs filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a >> system crash or power failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is >> much slower as a result. > > is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is > freebsd going to evolve such a creature ? Nay, it's _not_ the same as a journaling filesystem. Well, I was actually looking into that the other day (looking at VxFS, JFS and the Novell FS) and afaik FreeBSD has no such thing. Journaling differs from SoftUpdates (metadata enhancers) in that SU caches metadata and repositions the cached writes to allow for more contigious writes. A journaling filesystem keeps a logfile in which every transaction to the filesystem gets logged/journaled (d'oh =) and in case of a serious crash it can back out every transaction if needed. Some people who deal exclusively with filesystems will surely modify my answer to reflect their better understanding of the above, but this is in how far I know how they work. > what would teh arguments be one way ot the other, please. Dunno for sure as I am not an adept in the intricities of filesystems. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 05:25:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAB02682 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02675 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:25:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id WAA04515; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:25:14 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36AB1B9B.549FDE56@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:09:47 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jonathan michaels CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG jonathan michaels wrote: > > is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is freebsd > going to evolve such a creature ? No, softupdates is not a journaling filesystem. It is a different semantics for writes for ffs. (Well, I suppose softupdates "technology" is applicable to any fs, but in our case, is ffs.) FreeBSD evolving a journaling filesystem depends on someone doing it. :-) A journaling fs has advantages over Delayed Ordered Writes fs, which is softupdates' poor cousin, so to speak (in what they do, not in who did them). So, I guess a journaling fs has advantages over softupdates, but I'd have to go back to my archives to "recall" them :-). But it is a little bit unlikely someone would trouble him/herself with a journaling fs given softupdates. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 05:25:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02696 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02689 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:25:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id WAA04524; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:25:18 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36AB1C0A.E67D57A5@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:11:38 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: jonathan michaels , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <199901241042.CAA17862@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > > and is not related to journaling/log-structured filesystems. FFS with > softupdates is believed to be at least as fast as LFS without any of the > downside of LFS (such as the need to do a periodic cleanup pass). Given that a journaling fs is not the same beast as a log fs (or so I was led to believe), this statement is a little bit misleading, since the question stated explicitly *journaling* fs. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 05:26:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02732 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:26:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02718 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 05:25:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id WAA04461; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:25:05 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36AB1A5E.35F73F4C@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:04:30 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: jm7996@devrycols.edu, Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <19990124171121.A36690@freebie.lemis.com> <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > > The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches > > writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power > > failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back > > to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file > > systems due to this. > > UFS does this too. Ext2fs in Linux defaults to full-async: data and metadata. This is much worse than ffs' default in FreeBSD, of metadata-sync + data-async. FreeBSD's ffs can be configured as full sync or full async, in addition to it's default behavior. AND, we now have softupdates. :-) Ok, ok, it has licensing issues... > I don't know if it's possible to turn it off in Linux. You can't turn > it off in UFS either. In fact, the manner in which disk writes are > cached is pretty central to FreeBSD's performance. You can turn it off in Linux, though I don't know if they have a "half-async" mode. As for FreeBSD, see above... :-) > I think you've made my point. This ``evil'' feature of ext2fs was > probably borrowed, at least in concept, from BSD's UFS. Nope, they default to full-async. That IS evil. If they don't have a half-async, which gives much better resistance to crash, that's evil too. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 07:06:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11812 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:06:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11804; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:06:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:06:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901241506.HAA11804@hub.freebsd.org> From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: grog@lemis.com CC: jm7996@devrycols.edu, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> (message from Greg Lehey on Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:56 +1030) Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <19990124171121.A36690@freebie.lemis.com> <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:15:56 +1030 > From: Greg Lehey > > > > The Linux filesystem, or ext2fs, if I'm not mistaken by default caches > > writes to the disk. If the machine should suddenly go down, power > > failure, unexpected crash, etc..., this information doesn't make it back > > to the disk. I've known many a Linux user who has lost _entire_ file > > systems due to this. > > UFS does this too. > [snip] > The only ``file system'' I know which doesn't cache significantly is > Microsoft's DOS file system. The performance is correspondingly bad. > > I think you've made my point. This ``evil'' feature of ext2fs was > probably borrowed, at least in concept, from BSD's UFS. FFS is significantly better than ext2fs. ext2fs does not order metadata writes. ext2fs does not use synchrouns writes for metadata. therefore the filesystems structures are not consistent until a shutdown or a long enough period of inactivity passes for the disk data to match that in cache. softupdates solves the problem by maintaining the dependencies on memory and keeping the filesystems on disk consistent. at least, thats my understanding. ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 13:20:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20622 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20561 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.196]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA221D for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:19:45 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:28:04 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: cool stuff! Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Check this out: http://www.scotgold.com/Daemon.htm Was posted on NetBSD advocacy... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 13:30:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21898 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21887 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:30:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18899; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:33:38 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990125083337.B18834@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:33:37 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 11:56:38AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 01:49:14AM -0800, David Greenman wrote: > > >> Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance > >> wasn't very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs > >> is "fast and loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside > >> of making ext2fs filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a > >> system crash or power failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is > >> much slower as a result. > > > > is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is > > freebsd going to evolve such a creature ? > > Nay, it's _not_ the same as a journaling filesystem. Well, I was actually > looking into that the other day (looking at VxFS, JFS and the Novell FS) > and afaik FreeBSD has no such thing. yup, i can see that. i asked my question 'cause i;m looking to "sell" freebsd to a freind about to dump a significant investment in good novell technology for a ms win nt shop approach. for him "the novell journalling filesystem" is everything and he is sorta convinced nt will give him "the same", brochures are marvellious, read enough of them and you will believe anything. > Journaling differs from SoftUpdates (metadata enhancers) in that SU caches > metadata and repositions the cached writes to allow for more contigious > writes. A journaling filesystem keeps a logfile in which every transaction > to the filesystem gets logged/journaled (d'oh =) and in case of a serious > crash it can back out every transaction if needed. thier are a few other tricks depending on the skill of teh implementors but as i understand it that is the basic argument. > Some people who deal exclusively with filesystems will surely modify my > answer to reflect their better understanding of the above, but this is in > how far I know how they work. that would be good to see .. also provide some ammunition to use. > > what would teh arguments be one way ot the other, please. > > Dunno for sure as I am not an adept in the intricities of filesystems. its times like these i wish had my old library, to many moves and to many forced cleanouts .. shame, but thats life. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 13:37:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22303 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22297 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18927; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:40:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990125084024.C18834@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:40:24 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> <36AB1B9B.549FDE56@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36AB1B9B.549FDE56@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 10:09:47PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 10:09:47PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > jonathan michaels wrote: > > > > is this softupdates teh same as a journaling filesystem, if not is freebsd > > going to evolve such a creature ? > > No, softupdates is not a journaling filesystem. It is a different > semantics for writes for ffs. (Well, I suppose softupdates > "technology" is applicable to any fs, but in our case, is ffs.) > > FreeBSD evolving a journaling filesystem depends on someone doing > it. :-) A journaling fs has advantages over Delayed Ordered Writes > fs, which is softupdates' poor cousin, so to speak (in what they do, > not in who did them). So, I guess a journaling fs has advantages > over softupdates, but I'd have to go back to my archives to "recall" > them :-). But it is a little bit unlikely someone would trouble > him/herself with a journaling fs given softupdates. yes, it is starting to look like that. now all i have to do is workout how to sell teh 'softupdates' concept to a died in teh wool novell journelling fs database manager whose hide has been saved more than once by journelling. ummm, not an easy task . but we will prevail .. grin. revicved with thanks jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 19:31:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:31:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05753 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id MAA00329; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:31:02 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36ABE034.892A3547@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:08:36 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jonathan michaels CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> <19990125083337.B18834@caamora.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG jonathan michaels wrote: > > > Some people who deal exclusively with filesystems will surely modify my > > answer to reflect their better understanding of the above, but this is in > > how far I know how they work. > > that would be good to see .. also provide some ammunition to use. Well, Terry can explain this *really* well. Err... I mean, in very fine details. :-) He once did a comparision of log/journaled/dow/soft on -fs, before soft was integrated into FreeBSD. I'm almost decided to search my old-stuff cd-roms for that thread... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 19:31:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05778 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05773 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:31:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id MAA00338; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:31:08 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36ABE1DB.15EFFF9F@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:15:39 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jonathan michaels CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View References: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> <36AB1B9B.549FDE56@newsguy.com> <19990125084024.C18834@caamora.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG jonathan michaels wrote: > > yes, it is starting to look like that. now all i have to do is workout how to > sell teh 'softupdates' concept to a died in teh wool novell journelling fs > database manager whose hide has been saved more than once by journelling. > > ummm, not an easy task . but we will prevail .. grin. If he understand what he is talking about, and if Novell DTRT, you can't. Softupdates will garantee metadata consistency, though our implementation still depends on fsck to remove partial metadata commits (these partial commits do *not* leave the fs in an inconsistent state, mind you). If the transaction interface is exported from Novell's jfs to the application, though, it will garantee application data consistency as well. In the specific case of databases, this is a MAJOR win. If it is not exporting the transaction interface, though, or if the application is not using it, one would be hard pressed to provide any advantage of his jfs to our softupdates. I think. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com If you sell your soul to the Devil and all you get is an MCSE from it, you haven't gotten market rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 20:01:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07941 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:01:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07928 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19728; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:04:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990125150422.G18834@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:04:22 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> <19990125083337.B18834@caamora.com.au> <36ABE034.892A3547@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36ABE034.892A3547@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:08:36PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:08:36PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > jonathan michaels wrote: > > > > > Some people who deal exclusively with filesystems will surely modify my > > > answer to reflect their better understanding of the above, but this is in > > > how far I know how they work. > > > > that would be good to see .. also provide some ammunition to use. > > Well, Terry can explain this *really* well. Err... I mean, in very > fine details. :-) He once did a comparision of > log/journaled/dow/soft on -fs, before soft was integrated into > FreeBSD. > > I'm almost decided to search my old-stuff cd-roms for that thread... daniel, if you do and you find it can you let me know where it is, please. cheers jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 20:08:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09425 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09417 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19751; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:11:21 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990125151120.H18834@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:11:20 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990124201556.E36690@freebie.lemis.com> <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> <19990124212533.B17658@caamora.com.au> <36AB1B9B.549FDE56@newsguy.com> <19990125084024.C18834@caamora.com.au> <36ABE1DB.15EFFF9F@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36ABE1DB.15EFFF9F@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:15:39PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 12:15:39PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > jonathan michaels wrote: > > > > yes, it is starting to look like that. now all i have to do is workout how to > > sell teh 'softupdates' concept to a died in teh wool novell journelling fs > > database manager whose hide has been saved more than once by journelling. > > > > ummm, not an easy task . but we will prevail .. grin. > > If he understand what he is talking about, and if Novell DTRT, you > can't. > > Softupdates will garantee metadata consistency, though our > implementation still depends on fsck to remove partial metadata > commits (these partial commits do *not* leave the fs in an > inconsistent state, mind you). > > If the transaction interface is exported from Novell's jfs to the > application, though, it will garantee application data consistency > as well. In the specific case of databases, this is a MAJOR win. yup, this is what it is all about, rdbms, i'm not sure if its sybase/informix or oracle, but you can build web server database backends and do online maintenance with it (i think this sorta makes it oracle). > If it is not exporting the transaction interface, though, or if the > application is not using it, one would be hard pressed to provide > any advantage of his jfs to our softupdates. I think. :-) as i said, he seems to think its teh onlyway to go, and now with oracle having a linux version, i think thier is a chance to slow the drift to ms win nt. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 24 22:11:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23460 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:11:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23439 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.210]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA27A3; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:11:11 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990125083337.B18834@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:19:33 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: jonathan michaels Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > yup, i can see that. i asked my question 'cause i;m looking to "sell" > freebsd to a freind about to dump a significant investment in good > novell technology for a ms win nt shop approach. for him "the novell > journalling filesystem" is everything and he is sorta convinced nt will > give him "the same", brochures are marvellious, read enough of them and > you will believe anything. Tell you friend that he is an idiot. I administer over 450 NetWare servers, about 99% of them 4.11. There are also a dozen NT servers. General uptime on the NetWare servers surpasses the NT ones. Plus for data-access the Novell FS outperforms NT's quite on a few times... NetWare + FreeBSD = deadly combo... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jan 25 04:32:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08840 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08834 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 04:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20508; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:36:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990125233610.C19792@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:36:10 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990125083337.B18834@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 07:19:33AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 07:19:33AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 11:56:38AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> On 24-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > > > yup, i can see that. i asked my question 'cause i;m looking to "sell" > > freebsd to a freind about to dump a significant investment in good > > novell technology for a ms win nt shop approach. for him "the novell > > journalling filesystem" is everything and he is sorta convinced nt will > > give him "the same", brochures are marvellious, read enough of them and > > you will believe anything. > > Tell you friend that he is an idiot. i've already done that jeroen, and i've also told him he is on his own if he goes down teh nt path .. that one sorta shook him, he thought i was kidding about my remarks cancering his organisation with ms win nt servers. > I administer over 450 NetWare servers, about 99% of them 4.11. There are > also a dozen NT servers. General uptime on the NetWare servers surpasses > the NT ones. Plus for data-access the Novell FS outperforms NT's quite on a > few times... this has been my experience as well. > NetWare + FreeBSD = deadly combo... i know that nt and freebsd would be a bad move, but in what way would a mixed environment like netware and freebsd be a bad thing ? regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jan 25 12:12:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03956 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:12:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03905 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:11:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA051464017; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:20:17 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:20:17 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Konrad Heuer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Konrad Heuer wrote: > My current arguments (of different quality) for FreeBSD are: > > 1. FreeBSD has an excellent pedigree. > 2. For someome who has experiences with SunOS, Ultrix etc. FreeBSD is > more familiar. > 3. Linux is a kernel plus distributor's work, FreeBSD is a complete > operating system. > 4. Linux NFS performance is bad. > 5. Linux process scheduling algorithm is worse than that of FreeBSD if > system load is high. > 6. As far as I've observed, the virtual memory system of FreeBSD > behaves better. > 7. The Linux kernel has internal limits (e.g. max number of open > files) which may cause troubles on bigger systems. I enjoyed reading your mail, but just one point. Knocking Linux doesn't constitute "..arguments for FreeBSD". Point #4, as some will tell you isn't something we excel at (at least in the past) - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jan 25 12:34:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07075 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07010 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:33:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.84]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1AB6; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:04:54 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990125233610.C19792@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:13:16 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: jonathan michaels Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 25-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 07:19:33AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> NetWare + FreeBSD = deadly combo... > > i know that nt and freebsd would be a bad move, but in what way would a > mixed environment like netware and freebsd be a bad thing ? Heh, sorry... I meant that FreeBSD and NetWare just mega rule together. Deadly as in don't fock with it, 'cause it will kick yer arse ;) (pardon the french) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 26 13:36:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03759 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03751 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 9271 invoked from network); 26 Jan 1999 21:34:14 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Jan 1999 21:34:14 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA01210; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:34:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901262134.QAA01210@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View In-Reply-To: <199901240949.BAA17434@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Jan 24, 99 01:49:14 am" To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:34:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, jm7996@devrycols.edu, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman said: > > Actually, prior to softupdates, FreeBSD's filesystem performance wasn't > very good compared to ext2fs for the very reason that ext2fs is "fast and > loose" by defering metadata writes. This has the downside of making ext2fs > filesystem integrity unreliable in the face of a system crash or power > failure. FFS does not have this problem, but is much slower as a result. > Ext2fs can get by being a little more fast and loose than FFS because ext2fs doesn't have fragments. Fragment relocation and reallocation adds a little risk to ffs, but not much. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 27 03:26:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00609 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:26:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA00603 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:26:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25832; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:30:26 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990127223025.B25789@caamora.com.au> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:30:25 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD - A User's Point of View Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990125233610.C19792@caamora.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:13:16PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:13:16PM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 25-Jan-99 jonathan michaels wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 07:19:33AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > >> NetWare + FreeBSD = deadly combo... > > > > i know that nt and freebsd would be a bad move, but in what way would a > > mixed environment like netware and freebsd be a bad thing ? > > Heh, sorry... > > I meant that FreeBSD and NetWare just mega rule together. Deadly as in > don't fock with it, 'cause it will kick yer arse ;) (pardon the french) no worries jeroen, recieved with thanks. ps, minor victory .. linux (debian distribution) as a database server and freebsd (not v3) as a ppp server router gateway machine. also, to all who sent email and explained 'jfs' and how to fix inherant weakness in freebsd and linux server solutions (all have been passed on as is) a sincere thank you. a small victory, but it is a begining. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 27 19:49:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02078 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02069 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12442 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:51:39 +0500 Message-ID: <36AFDE5D.C206DB9@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:49:49 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IDC's Feb. 1998 report on FreeBSD ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I saw this in www.IDC.com, but it coest $1,500. A well their prediction is probably outdated. ____________________________ Abstract This Bulletin discusses whether FreeBSD will come "out of the closet" and into the corporate mainstream. Table of Contents IDC Opinion FreeBSD Defined Commercial Offering Of BSD FreeBSD And BSDI Deployment FreeBSD And Linux; What's The Difference? Analysis ____________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 30 08:43:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09292 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:43:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09281 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06223 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:43:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36B33693.4E14B115@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:42:59 -0700 From: Wes =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peters=D4?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=40=21=EA?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=80?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=EA?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=80=DD=E7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=805=EA?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=C0?==?iso-8859-1?Q?=EA?= Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: BSD news from each camp?] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daemon News needs your help. Please send any news items, including relevant URLs, to editors@daemonnews.org for the monthly news wrap-up. Thanks for your help. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: BSD news from each camp? Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:23:14 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Bertrand Reply-To: Louis Bertrand To: DaemonNews core team Folks, please post on your respective mailing lists (misc or advocacy, as appropriate) to get news and updates from the various development and support teams. For example, I just learned on Slashdot today that NetBSD has a port to the Sun UltraSPARC (bravo!). We should be a little noisier about milestones like that... Thanks --Louis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 30 20:50:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08687 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:50:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-13.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08682 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA51078 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:47:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:47:32 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ZDNet and FreeBSD? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was curious to see how worked up the Linux zelots would get over ZDNet's coverage of it, and a favorable review of it, when I came across this.. Hmm.. http://www.zdnet.com/talkback/41_26343_107474.html - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 30 20:55:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09280 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:55:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr164328-a.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.112.125.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09274 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA24722; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:55:38 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: cpiazza@home.net From: Chris Piazza To: Alex Zepeda Subject: RE: ZDNet and FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, could you post the original article url? I can't find the article that all the feedback is talking about. thanks, -Chris On 31-Jan-99 Alex Zepeda wrote: :> I was curious to see how worked up the Linux zelots would get over ZDNet's :> coverage of it, and a favorable review of it, when I came across this.. :> Hmm.. :> :> http://www.zdnet.com/talkback/41_26343_107474.html :> :> - alex :> :> :> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 30 21:40:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13475 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-7.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13469 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00317; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:37:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Chris Piazza cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: ZDNet and FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Chris Piazza wrote: > Hi, could you post the original article url? I can't find the article > that all the feedback is talking about. Lynx and Netscap grok everything, and I can find it with both. The article's name is Linux, time to switch. It should be a clear shot from www.zdnet.com - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 30 21:42:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13722 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:42:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr164328-a.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.112.125.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13715 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:42:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA24877; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:41:56 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: cpiazza@home.net From: Chris Piazza To: Alex Zepeda Subject: RE: ZDNet and FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 31-Jan-99 Alex Zepeda wrote: :> On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Chris Piazza wrote: :> :>> Hi, could you post the original article url? I can't find the article :>> that all the feedback is talking about. :> :> Lynx and Netscap grok everything, and I can find it with both. The :> article's name is Linux, time to switch. It should be a clear shot from :> www.zdnet.com :> :> - alex yeah, right after I sent that message I found it :\... I should take some more time next time :) -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message