From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 1:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5824914F87 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 01:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 11971 invoked by alias); 14 Mar 1999 09:24:47 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 11950 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 1999 09:24:46 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Mar 1999 09:24:46 -0000 Message-ID: <36EB805D.6E266065@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 01:24:45 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Name ideas? [Was: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this...] References: <4.1.19990312205306.03fcc4f0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: >At 07:28 PM 3/12/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg >> >>But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) > >ROFL! A daemonatrix! ;-) Just wonderin' about this, what shall we call her? Bride of Chuckie perhaps? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 2:57: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C5E14C96 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 02:56:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id LAA17594 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:56:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by paula.panke.de.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA01111; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:37:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wosch) Message-ID: <19990314113734.25135@panke.de.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:37:34 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: The FreeBSD WebBoard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.freebsd.org/projects/#fbsdboard The FreeBSD WebBoard is a place where the FreeBSD community can help eachother out. They can leave postings and have them answered while at the same time, other FreeBSD users can view these problems and learn from them. Keep in mind that this WebBoard is very new and things are currently being added. If there are few or no messages posted, feel free to still post as it may still get answered. -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 6:10:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 354B0153F8 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id XAA15912; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:07:56 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36EB9DCC.985AD1FE@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:30:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly article: Whence the Source: Untangling the Open Source/Free Software Debate References: <24351.921273950@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990312161356.00cb39c0@localhost> <19990313112920.O429@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > > True. However, in order to compare and contrast the products, one > > still must mention the competition's weaknesses. > > No, this isn't necessary, and in many countries it's illegal. True enough. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "My theory is that his ignorance clouded his poor judgment." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 6:13: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A2815384 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 06:13:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id XAA16774; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:12:55 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36EBC368.2F9BEC2@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:10:48 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg > > But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) See, this is what I am talking about. Can you imagine a female penguin half as cool? (no pun intended) (ok, ok, I admit it: pun half intended) ;-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "What happened?" "It moved, sir!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 8:18: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB3A14C93 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Received: from jancomulti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03220; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:15:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Message-ID: <36EBE089.28DDF054@jancomulti.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 17:15:05 +0100 From: "Pål Sommerhein" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD WebBoard References: <19990314113734.25135@panke.de.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > http://www.freebsd.org/projects/#fbsdboard > Hi I get "fbsdboard.lynxcom.net" does not hava a DNS entry when trying to follow the link "The FreeBSD WebBoard" on the page refered to above. Best regards, Paal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 8:23:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B7D14ECA for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 08:23:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA04754; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:22:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990314092048.00d06cb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:22:42 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36EBC368.2F9BEC2@newsguy.com> References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I agree. There's only one thing it still needs: a good slogan. So I'd like to (humbly) propose the following: "FreeBSD. The power to MAKE you serve." --Brett At 11:10 PM 3/14/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >> >> http://www.intrastar.net/~karen/special/ad.jpg >> >> But Brett was looking for more aggressive advocacy, wasn't he? :-) > >See, this is what I am talking about. Can you imagine a female >penguin half as cool? (no pun intended) (ok, ok, I admit it: pun >half intended) ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 9:19:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1030E15118 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Received: from jancomulti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03285; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:16:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Message-ID: <36EBEF02.611FC2D6@jancomulti.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:16:50 +0100 From: "Pål Sommerhein" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD WebBoard References: <19990314113734.25135@panke.de.freebsd.org> <36EBE089.28DDF054@jancomulti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pål Sommerhein wrote: > Hi > I get "fbsdboard.lynxcom.net" does not hava a DNS entry > when trying to follow the link "The FreeBSD WebBoard" on > the page refered to above. I get through now, no problem. Maybe it was due to the distribution of the new (I assume) DNS name for this site. Paal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 12:46:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA89156CC for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:46:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA16763; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:46:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Nocturne Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Name ideas? [Was: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this...] References: <4.1.19990312205306.03fcc4f0@localhost> <36EB805D.6E266065@uswest.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 1999 21:46:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: Nocturne's message of "Sun, 14 Mar 1999 01:24:45 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nocturne writes: > Just wonderin' about this, what shall we call her? > > Bride of Chuckie perhaps? Well, since the BSD Daemon's name is not Chuckie, I think we should just call her the BSD Daemonatrix. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 12:48:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE01156D7 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 12:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA16820; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:47:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990314092048.00d06cb0@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Mar 1999 21:47:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Sun, 14 Mar 1999 09:22:42 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > I agree. There's only one thing it still needs: a good slogan. So > I'd like to (humbly) propose the following: > > "FreeBSD. The power to MAKE you serve." Gee, Brett, you certainly have a way with words. Good thing I wasn't drinking when I read that, or I'd have a soggy keyboard now :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 19:31:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC6C814F16 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 11184 invoked from network); 15 Mar 1999 03:30:48 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 15 Mar 1999 03:30:48 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA01026; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:30:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903150330.WAA01026@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Mar 14, 99 09:47:57 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:30:44 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dcs@newsguy.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav said: > Brett Glass writes: > > I agree. There's only one thing it still needs: a good slogan. So > > I'd like to (humbly) propose the following: > > > > "FreeBSD. The power to MAKE you serve." > > Gee, Brett, you certainly have a way with words. Good thing I wasn't > drinking when I read that, or I'd have a soggy keyboard now :) > So much for freedom; With FreeBSD, you don't have the option of not serving :-). Sounds like GPL-style freedom :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 20:43:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B449C15023 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA09515; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:43:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990314110244.00d08280@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990314110244.00d08280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:12:41 -0700 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: "In your face" marketing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A comic that appeared today http://www.mercurycenter.com/premium/comics/03_14/ballard_street.gif suggests that there's something to be said for the occasional bit of "in your face" marketing. (Not that it should be done to excess, of course.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Mar 14 20:55:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB3F714F04 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA09590; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:54:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990314214626.03f4dec0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:47:01 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net, des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903150330.WAA01026@y.dyson.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:30 PM 3/14/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: =>So much for freedom; With FreeBSD, you don't have the option of not >serving :-). Sounds like GPL-style freedom :-). The difference is, with the GPL, it's not a joke (sigh). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 6:54:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1904814D1E for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-021.thuntek.net [207.66.52.21]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA10588 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:54:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:54:25 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: License nightmare Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If GNU gcc is GPL, is FreeBSD in violation, or is it just 'including source' and not 'using' that requires disclosure of sources? -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 10:16: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from main-sd1.artnetonline.com (unknown [194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E7C31512C for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di-024.hamburg.dialin-gw.net (di-024.hamburg.dialin-gw.net [195.90.225.24]) by main-sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id za737983 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:14:51 +0100 Content-Length: 588 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:18:04 +0100 (CET) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: kuehl@lgk.de To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Name ideas? [Was: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of th Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Nocturne Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 14-Mar-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Nocturne writes: >> Just wonderin' about this, what shall we call her? >> >> Bride of Chuckie perhaps? > > Well, since the BSD Daemon's name is not Chuckie, I think we should > just call her the BSD Daemonatrix. How about Desdaemona? ;-) Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Lars Gerhard Kuehl Phone: +49 40 54768010 Mobile: +49 171 9307085 Fax : +49 40 54768012 Email : kuehl@lgk.de #ifdef is your friend, and everyone's else enemy #endif /* is your friend */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 11:12:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3253155FC for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id UAA61269; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:11:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: License nightmare References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 1999 20:11:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: Donald Wilde's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 1999 07:54:25 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde writes: > If GNU gcc is GPL, is FreeBSD in violation, or is it just 'including > source' and not 'using' that requires disclosure of sources? Where did you get the idea that we did not distribute the gcc sources? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 11:14:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138C21561A for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11944; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:13:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:13:28 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <199903130328.TAA27624@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So if someone offers me a red plush Chuck suit in the style of sports mascots, I would be glad to wear it to the next LinuxWorld (especially if you pay my airfare :). Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12: 9:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAD11503E for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-061.thuntek.net [207.66.52.61]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA22835; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:08:43 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36ED68D6.C7820CAD@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:08:54 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: License nightmare References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Donald Wilde writes: > > If GNU gcc is GPL, is FreeBSD in violation, or is it just 'including > > source' and not 'using' that requires disclosure of sources? > > Where did you get the idea that we did not distribute the gcc sources? > No, I mean the sources of code that is generated with gcc. The GPL could be interpreted to mean that binaries created using gcc as a tool are subject to the license. If I'm just having bad dreams needlessly, please tell me so. :-) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:12:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7A514CD1 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:12:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA63490; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:12:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Donald Wilde Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: License nightmare References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> <36ED68D6.C7820CAD@thuntek.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 1999 21:12:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: Donald Wilde's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:08:54 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Donald Wilde writes: > > > If GNU gcc is GPL, is FreeBSD in violation, or is it just 'including > > > source' and not 'using' that requires disclosure of sources? > > Where did you get the idea that we did not distribute the gcc sources? > No, I mean the sources of code that is generated with gcc. The GPL could > be interpreted to mean that binaries created using gcc as a tool are > subject to the license. If I'm just having bad dreams needlessly, please > tell me so. :-) Richard Stallman has very specificly stated that this is not the case. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:14:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7FE14D24 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-061.thuntek.net [207.66.52.61]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA23893; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:13:32 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36ED69F7.9F4BEA9F@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:13:43 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: License nightmare References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> <36ED68D6.C7820CAD@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Donald Wilde writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Donald Wilde writes: > > > > If GNU gcc is GPL, is FreeBSD in violation, or is it just 'including > > > > source' and not 'using' that requires disclosure of sources? > > > Where did you get the idea that we did not distribute the gcc sources? > > No, I mean the sources of code that is generated with gcc. The GPL could > > be interpreted to mean that binaries created using gcc as a tool are > > subject to the license. If I'm just having bad dreams needlessly, please > > tell me so. :-) > > Richard Stallman has very specificly stated that this is not the case. > wonderful, thanks a lot! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:18: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0B515019 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:16:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA63680; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:16:38 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: License nightmare References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> <36ED68D6.C7820CAD@thuntek.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Mar 1999 21:16:38 +0100 In-Reply-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav's message of "15 Mar 1999 21:12:09 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > Richard Stallman has very specificly stated that this is not the case. s/specificly/specifically/. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:33:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914F814EE8 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:32:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA15507; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:31:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990315131545.03fc2510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:31:32 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Donald Wilde From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: License nightmare Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36ED1F21.12E97D6D@thuntek.net> <36ED68D6.C7820CAD@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:12 PM 3/15/99 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Richard Stallman has very specificly stated that this is not the case. Yes, this is true. However, Stallman has now begun to advocate the use of the GPL on various runtime libraries. (See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html for more on this.) If you fall into the "trap" of using one of these libraries in a commercial application (and it's set up to be a "trap," in that RMS advocates that the GPL be used on libraries which aren't available elsewhere), you must reveal your source code. LibGTop is an example of a library which Stallman insisted upon releasing under the GPL rather than the LGPL. So do be careful. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:33:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-2.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143AE15056; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA04335; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:33:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:33:32 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concerning PC Mags pitiful mention of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990306102112.007ada60@we.mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Ok, this is concerning the ariticle in PC Magazine's March edition (Vol. > 18, No. 6 Marche 23, 1999). To make a long story short, they had like too > articles on Linux and the GPL. The first one was some editors note, then > the other was a full blown Unix timeline, installation guide, and > comparisons between 4 different distributions. > > Well actually, they called it more of an "Open Source" aritcle. Not just a > Linux article. I finally got around to reading that horrible article (a URL was just posted to /.). Yich. Please, everyone, it's time for some Brett style advocacy. These guys can't even figure out what the acronym KDE stands for (hint: it's NOT Kool Desktop Environment). - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 12:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98CDC14CD1 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA13310; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:47:15 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903152047.NAA13310@pcslink.com> Subject: Re: License nightmare In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Mar 15, 99 09:12:09 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:47:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, des@flood.ping.uio.no, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Richard Stallman has very specificly stated that this is not the case. Although I'm sure he would LIKE it to be the case :) >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 13: 7:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sss00205.schwab.com (sss00205.schwab.com [162.93.15.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80894150C9 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Laura.Hudson@Schwab.COM) Received: (from root@localhost) by fire sf id QAA28526 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from s0001asf.schwab.com(162.93.32.201) by sss00205 via smap (V2.1/2.1+anti-relay+anti-spam) id xma028490; Mon, 15 Mar 99 16:03:05 -0500 Received: (from root@localhost) by ihop sf id PAA01164 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: ( Schwab Email ) by copymail sf with ESMTP id PAA01144 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by N2101PMX.nt.schwab.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:03:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Hudson, Laura" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:03:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm sure that what we really need is a booth-babe daemon Appealing to the hormones of geeks is the best way to advocate freebsd *grin* -Laura > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Watson [mailto:robert@cyrus.watson.org] > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:13 AM > To: Jordan K. Hubbard > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... > > > > So if someone offers me a red plush Chuck suit in the style of sports > mascots, I would be glad to wear it to the next LinuxWorld > (especially if > you pay my airfare :). > > Robert N Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ > Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 15 19:54:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2698214BF1 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 28259 invoked by alias); 16 Mar 1999 03:53:57 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 28215 invoked by uid 0); 16 Mar 1999 03:53:56 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 03:53:56 -0000 Message-ID: <36EDD5D2.40D78C10@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:53:54 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hudson, Laura" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [format recovered] "Hudson, Laura" wrote: >> So if someone offers me a red plush Chuck suit in the style of sports >> mascots, I would be glad to wear it to the next LinuxWorld >> (especially if you pay my airfare :). > > I'm sure that what we really need is a booth-babe daemon > > Appealing to the hormones of geeks is the best way to advocate freebsd > > *grin* I can see it now... "Hello there you sexy computer guy... Would you do me an *awfully* big favour?" FreeBSD: The Power to Service? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 5:32:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFED14FB7 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01638; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:35:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:35:40 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Hudson, Laura" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How will any one be able to tell if she's sexy in a big red daemon suit? ;-) On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Hudson, Laura wrote: > I'm sure that what we really need is a booth-babe daemon > > Appealing to the hormones of geeks is the best way to advocate freebsd > > *grin* > > -Laura > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert Watson [mailto:robert@cyrus.watson.org] > > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:13 AM > > To: Jordan K. Hubbard > > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... > > > > > > > > So if someone offers me a red plush Chuck suit in the style of sports > > mascots, I would be glad to wear it to the next LinuxWorld > > (especially if > > you pay my airfare :). > > > > Robert N Watson > > > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C > > > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ > > Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 7:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784691512B for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:40:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14868; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:39:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36EE7B3B.7A0796C1@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:39:39 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hudson, Laura" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Hudson, Laura" wrote: > > I'm sure that what we really need is a booth-babe daemon > > Appealing to the hormones of geeks is the best way to advocate freebsd > > *grin* A company at Interop a couple of years ago had two *very nice looking* "little red devils" wandering around handing out goodies if you were wearing one of their badges. My VP of Engineering spent most of the day "running into" the two of them in turn. Are you volunteering for booth-babe duty? *I'm* certainly not a candidate. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 8:31:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1C915280 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:30:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA23073; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:29:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:28:52 -0700 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Hudson, Laura" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:35 AM 3/16/99 -0500, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > How will any one be able to tell if she's sexy in a big red daemon >suit? > >;-) In that case, it'll just have to be a *little* red daemon suit. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 10:20:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EE41547A for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:19:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES1 by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1460.8) id GWQ22KKF; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:17:37 -0800 Message-ID: <00c601be6fd9$a8c1eba0$1d43a8c0@shanes1.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: "Adrian Filipi-Martin" , "Hudson, Laura" Cc: Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:20:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maybe she should not be wearing the whole suit... ;-) David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Software Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com The big news: http://www.personalogic.com/home/press/prs_releaseAOL.stm -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Hudson, Laura Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 5:32 AM Subject: RE: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... > > How will any one be able to tell if she's sexy in a big red daemon >suit? > >;-) > >On Mon, 15 Mar 1999, Hudson, Laura wrote: > >> I'm sure that what we really need is a booth-babe daemon >> >> Appealing to the hormones of geeks is the best way to advocate freebsd >> >> *grin* >> >> -Laura >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Robert Watson [mailto:robert@cyrus.watson.org] >> > Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 11:13 AM >> > To: Jordan K. Hubbard >> > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> > Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... >> > >> > >> > >> > So if someone offers me a red plush Chuck suit in the style of sports >> > mascots, I would be glad to wear it to the next LinuxWorld >> > (especially if >> > you pay my airfare :). >> > >> > Robert N Watson >> > >> > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ >> > PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C >> > >> > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ >> > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ >> > Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > > Adrian >-- >[ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 12:34:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 607471545E for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:34:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA04753; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA09429; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:34:10 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA18988; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:34:02 -0700 Message-ID: <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:34:20 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:35 AM 3/16/99 -0500, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > How will any one be able to tell if she's sexy in a big red daemon > >suit? > > > >;-) > > In that case, it'll just have to be a *little* red daemon suit. ;-) Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know this incredibly cute little blonde... (Picture not sent to the mailing list out of politeness...) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 13: 5:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DA115381; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA11550; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:04:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Alex Zepeda Cc: gummibear@we.mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concerning PC Mags pitiful mention of FreeBSD References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:04:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Alex Zepeda's message of "Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:33:32 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Zepeda writes: > I finally got around to reading that horrible article (a URL was just > posted to /.). Care to share it with us? I haven't seen anything about it in my headline listings. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 13:12:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D183015057 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA25922; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:10:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:10:43 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know >this incredibly cute little blonde... I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX sysadmins. This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more of it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 13:54:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C599314EE3 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:54:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA60480 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:54:00 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:54:00 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Apple's open source... Message-ID: <19990316235359.F432@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, Well, what's the verdict... http://www.publicsource.apple.com/ I'm not one for Brett style advocacy, but this takes the cake. They used BSD and CMU licensed software to develop most of the OS, and then release it with a big announcement of 'open source' under a more restrictive license... Seems to be basically the Netscape Public Licence with a s/Netscape/Apple Public/g. And they invite ESR to the launch. Not one mention of NetBSD, or FreeBSD. And yes we remember that they used a NetBSD userland, with lots of FreeBSD thrown in... http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=928440&c=3 http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=772422&c=3 At the very least they're in violation of the BSD advertising clause... -Jeremy -- | ----------------------------------------------------- --+-- "What a crazy world we live in, | we save the whales yet support abortion" - MIC | ----------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 14: 5: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BEF1501F for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:05:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA26493; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:04:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990316145928.00a501d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:04:36 -0700 To: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-Reply-To: <19990316235359.F432@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Worse still, the press is mentioning Linux in articles about the announcement, and crediting it for the move, even though NOT A SINGLE SHRED of the software that's being released is under the GPL or part of Linux. It's all BSD-derived, or under the MIT X or Apache licenses. See http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,33833,00.html for sample coverage. --Brett P.S. -- I'm not sure what you mean by "Brett-style advocacy." I have only described in a very general way what I have in mind, and that plan is only a proposal and subject to revision. At 11:54 PM 3/16/99 +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: >Hi all, > >Well, what's the verdict... http://www.publicsource.apple.com/ > >I'm not one for Brett style advocacy, but this takes the cake. They >used BSD and CMU licensed software to develop most of the OS, and then >release it with a big announcement of 'open source' under a more >restrictive license... Seems to be basically the Netscape Public >Licence with a s/Netscape/Apple Public/g. And they invite ESR to the >launch. > >Not one mention of NetBSD, or FreeBSD. And yes we remember that they >used a NetBSD userland, with lots of FreeBSD thrown in... > >http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=928440&c=3 >http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=772422&c=3 > >At the very least they're in violation of the BSD advertising clause... > > -Jeremy > >-- > | ----------------------------------------------------- >--+-- "What a crazy world we live in, > | we save the whales yet support abortion" - MIC > | ----------------------------------------------------- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 14:39:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2568115595 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:39:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA10878; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:38:46 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:38:42 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 02:10:43PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 02:10:43PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know > >this incredibly cute little blonde... > > I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty > redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. > > What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX > sysadmins. > > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > of it. Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis before I can get it up. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 14:45: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D27D15309 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:44:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA023682116; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:08:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:08:36 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316145928.00a501d0@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Worse still, the press is mentioning Linux in articles about the > announcement, and crediting it for the move, even though NOT A > SINGLE SHRED of the software that's being released is under the > GPL or part of Linux. It's all BSD-derived, or under the MIT X > or Apache licenses. I wrote the author and let him know his inaccuracies, I'd encourage others to do the same. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 15:22:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C7EE14CC3 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id AAA14790; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:21:48 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... References: <4.1.19990316145928.00a501d0@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 1999 00:21:47 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:04:36 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > See > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,33833,00.html > > for sample coverage. To quote the author, "[A]n editor put that in there; I know better. We're fixing it in an soon-to-be-posted update." DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 15:44:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-8.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E7D14CB5; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA70624; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: gummibear@we.mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Concerning PC Mags pitiful mention of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 16 Mar 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Alex Zepeda writes: > > I finally got around to reading that horrible article (a URL was just > > posted to /.). > > Care to share it with us? I haven't seen anything about it in my > headline listings. Look for "Software Returns to Source" http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/features/opensource/index.html - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 15:47:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5522C14F5F for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:47:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA27563; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:47:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990316163409.0404ce60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:47:00 -0700 To: Sue Blake From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> References: <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:38 AM 3/17/99 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. >I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis >before I can get it up. To get WHAT up? The organ or the OS? ;-) Seriously, though, most trade shows are really a battle for attendees' attention. Now, maybe it's just the horrible, awful primal nature of the human species, but any male who doesn't at least glance at an attractive woman in a revealing costume probably DOES have some sort of problem. (Fortunately, most computer geeks are very much, er, fully functional, as Brent Spiner would say. Perhaps that's why there are so many of us.) The "booth bunny" thing is all in good fun, and the women I know who have done booth duty understand this. Some of them -- horror of horrors! -- even enjoy the attention they get from all the geeks. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 16:49:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B51114E7A for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:49:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA13982 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:50:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990316235359.F432@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:49:43 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Other than complaining on how FreeBSD and NetBSD were not really given enough credit in the press releases for this, how do people think this Apple strategy will work out wrt *BSD's? Once the BSD's are given more credit, which is bound to happen (from Linux advocates complaining that "this isn't really linux", if nothing else), won't this give the *BSD's some more attention? Isn't that a good thing? Even if we don't get *attention*, won't this mean that developers might be "more inclined" to have their code compile under the *BSD's? Isn't that a good thing? We do need to improve the visibility of the *BSD connection, but if that is done, then what do people think about this? As to the licensing issues, I was assuming the "more restrictive license" referred to *Apple* source code that is being released. Ie, the source for Appletalk support, or HFS support, etc. They are releasing more source code than just the pieces from *BSD's, after all. Seems to me that this "more restrictive" license is an improvement over no source at all for those things -- which is the only license we used to have for them. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 17:22:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463B8151D8 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:21:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA07812; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA18580; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:19:53 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA06759; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:19:47 -0700 Message-ID: <36EF0345.15C6BF89@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:20:05 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 02:10:43PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know > > >this incredibly cute little blonde... > > > > I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty > > redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. > > > > What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX > > sysadmins. > > > > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > > of it. > > Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. > I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis > before I can get it up. I take it you didn't look at the picture. Perhaps you should. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 17:22:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7091515218 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:22:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA07824; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:20:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA18606; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:20:41 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA06814; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:20:39 -0700 Message-ID: <36EF037A.3E2F0CBA@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:20:58 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------23D8D01304B32118E8DBF497" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------23D8D01304B32118E8DBF497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sue Blake wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 02:10:43PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know > > >this incredibly cute little blonde... > > > > I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty > > redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. > > > > What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX > > sysadmins. > > > > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > > of it. > > Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. > I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis > before I can get it up. That's right, you didn't GET the picture. Hmm. OK, here it is; less stress-test your MIME mailer... -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? 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from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA07888; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA26067; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:29:02 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id SAA07315; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: <36EF056F.CCE1EA3D@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:29:19 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know > >this incredibly cute little blonde... > > I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty > redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. > > What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX > sysadmins. OK, OK, to quell the groundswell of comments/requests/etc, here's the picture for everyone who's interested: http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/cutie.html Now that you're back, re-read the above part about LITTLE blonde. And anyone who disagrees she's incredibly cute will be summarily executed. ;^) But she'd make an excellent mini-daemon, wouldn't she? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 17:52: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B71715035 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA03872; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:51:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:51:34 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" Reply-To: stox@enteract.com To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <36EF056F.CCE1EA3D@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > OK, OK, to quell the groundswell of comments/requests/etc, here's the > picture for everyone who's interested: > > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/cutie.html > > Now that you're back, re-read the above part about LITTLE blonde. And > anyone who disagrees she's incredibly cute will be summarily executed. > > ;^) > > But she'd make an excellent mini-daemon, wouldn't she? Looks like she already is! :-) - Ken Stox stox@imagescape.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 18:33:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C84A15233 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA18506; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:02:48 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA69402; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:02:47 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990317130246.V429@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:02:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Sue Blake Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> <36EF037A.3E2F0CBA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36EF037A.3E2F0CBA@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 06:20:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=muttTNu429 On Tuesday, 16 March 1999 at 18:20:58 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 16, 1999 at 02:10:43PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >>> >>>> Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know >>>> this incredibly cute little blonde... >>> >>> I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty >>> redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. >>> >>> What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX >>> sysadmins. >>> >>> This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more >>> of it. >> >> Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. >> I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis >> before I can get it up. > > That's right, you didn't GET the picture. Hmm. OK, here it is; > less stress-test your MIME mailer... Uh-uh. You put in the wrong attachment type. Should be image/jpeg, like the attached image of a FreeBSD core team member. Anybody want to identify him? 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x3qsUuZF0XqV3OJd3rV5cSwgDGfWqD44NXrIhlIrmTujd33KEqlWINdt4B1LdFPp7kZU+ZH9 D1/p+dcddAeYQeCKn0G+On63bTA/Lu2N9DxR5D6XPWy3qeaeDlQy9qBGGiXceCODS42LiouD YhKyDcMc1VniOMr2NTSDY4VBwaX5miO6ldBe5U2AfNimyKG+YGrTRbec8VWeMK+VOM9c0XHu QBsrtPUVYUq6eXIMgio3CKRjGaerA8dKGk1qEZWd0UpESGTaykVDqLxjT5CGOcVrtBHMm1sN jvWVqVh5trJHE2Gx3715dTATjUvDVHqUcbCULS0Z/9k= --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 19:43:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BCD6315234 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:43:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 23767 invoked by alias); 17 Mar 1999 03:43:08 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 23683 invoked by uid 0); 17 Mar 1999 03:43:05 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 03:43:05 -0000 Message-ID: <36EF24C6.591973B9@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:43:02 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <36EF056F.CCE1EA3D@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> At 01:34 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> >> >Well, if you're going to make it a *little* red daemon suit, I know >> >this incredibly cute little blonde... >> >> I know a cute, skinny brunette who'd do it, as well as a very pretty >> redhead who has done "booth bunny" duty before and enjoyed it. >> >> What's more, neither is an "airhead;" in fact, both are UNIX >> sysadmins. > >OK, OK, to quell the groundswell of comments/requests/etc, here's the >picture for everyone who's interested: > > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/cutie.html > >Now that you're back, re-read the above part about LITTLE blonde. And >anyone who disagrees she's incredibly cute will be summarily executed. Granted she's got the look, but I worry about anyone getting to networking at such an early age. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 21: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E10E0151A8 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA00388; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:03:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990316201426.00cdf290@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990316201426.00cdf290@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:15:52 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36EF056F.CCE1EA3D@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:29 PM 3/16/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >OK, OK, to quell the groundswell of comments/requests/etc, here's the >picture for everyone who's interested: > > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr/cutie.html > >Now that you're back, re-read the above part about LITTLE blonde. And >anyone who disagrees she's incredibly cute will be summarily executed. It looks as if she's about to execute HERSELF with all those cables... Aaack! >But she'd make an excellent mini-daemon, wouldn't she? No daemon too big; none too small. We can use all kinds. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 21:36:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC5D15528 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:36:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12165; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:35:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters Cc: Sue Blake , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:20:58 MST." <36EF037A.3E2F0CBA@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:35:49 -0800 Message-ID: <12163.921648949@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > That's right, you didn't GET the picture. Hmm. OK, here it is; > less stress-test your MIME mailer... Awwwwwwwwww! What a cute kid. Well, up until the point where she starts pulling those plugs out of the wall while daddy's working, that is. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 16 23:27: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5637B14E6A for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:27:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA27296; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:26:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Sue Blake Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990316092824.00988bd0@localhost> <36EEC04C.A686DFBD@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> <19990317093842.16900@welearn.com.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 1999 08:26:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: Sue Blake's message of "Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:38:42 +1100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake writes: > Sheesh, and you guys wonder why women don't think FreeBSD is for them. > I don't need any underfed dolly-headed tit poker to power my penis > before I can get it up. c|n>k DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 0: 2:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-11.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EFD14E9D for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:02:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA28851; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:01:54 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990316140656.00ab8ea0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > of it. I can see it now. The Walnut Creek Swimsuit Calendar... - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 0:22:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 00B871552F for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:22:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 3554 invoked by alias); 17 Mar 1999 08:21:55 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 3530 invoked by uid 0); 17 Mar 1999 08:21:54 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 08:21:54 -0000 Message-ID: <36EF661F.CC89B6D8@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:21:51 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Zepeda wrote: > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > > of it. > > I can see it now. The Walnut Creek Swimsuit Calendar... A "Hackers of FreeBSD" edition? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 0:46:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from confusion.skinner.org (confusion.skinner.org [209.3.31.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422D315236 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:46:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skinner@skinner.org) Received: from confusion.skinner.org (skinner@confusion.skinner.org [209.3.31.16]) by confusion.skinner.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA38369 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:52:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from skinner@skinner.org) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:52:52 -0500 (EST) From: S K I N N E R To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: :)On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: :) :)> This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more :)> of it. :) :)I can see it now. The Walnut Creek Swimsuit Calendar... :) :)- alex I can see it now. Jan. is Mz Deamon Process Feb. is Mz Cron Job :) ******************************************************************** Robert Skinner skinner{at}skinner[dot]org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal Ego http://www.skinner.org ******************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 1: 4: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D761516D for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:03:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13063; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:04:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "In your face" marketing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:12:41 MST." <4.1.19990314110244.00d08280@localhost> <4.1.19990314110244.00d08280@localhost> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:04:12 -0800 Message-ID: <13061.921661452@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > suggests that there's something to be said for the occasional bit of > "in your face" marketing. (Not that it should be done to excess, of > course.) The challenge, of course, being to find in-your-face marketing which isn't too, erm, in-your-face. ;-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 7:10: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4532014BD7 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:09:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA02579; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:09:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990317080703.00ce0d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:07:59 -0700 To: Nocturne , Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36EF661F.CC89B6D8@uswest.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:21 AM 3/17/99 -0800, Nocturne wrote: >Alex Zepeda wrote: >> >> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >> >> > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more >> > of it. >> >> I can see it now. The Walnut Creek Swimsuit Calendar... > >A "Hackers of FreeBSD" edition? I don't know about that, but there could certainly be a "Daemons" calendar. Or, if people are willing to dress their kids up in cute daemon costumes, a "Daemon Spawn" calendar. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 10:21:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9215414E18 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id DAA28335; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:20:02 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36EFD036.BF34EB94@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:54:30 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wes Peters , Sue Blake , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <12163.921648949@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > That's right, you didn't GET the picture. Hmm. OK, here it is; > > less stress-test your MIME mailer... > > Awwwwwwwwww! What a cute kid. Well, up until the point where she > starts pulling those plugs out of the wall while daddy's working, > that is. :-) Nah, she was probably doing maintenance. You know how the kids these days always know more about high-tech stuff than us adults... ;-> -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "What happened?" "It moved, sir!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 12:21:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BA215331 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:21:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA16439; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA09972; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:19:30 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA14680; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:19:11 -0700 Message-ID: <36F00E52.A08D40E6@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:19:30 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Nocturne , Alex Zepeda , advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990317080703.00ce0d50@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:21 AM 3/17/99 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > > >Alex Zepeda wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> > >> > This is quite a fun sort of advocacy. I think we should see more > >> > of it. > >> > >> I can see it now. The Walnut Creek Swimsuit Calendar... > > > >A "Hackers of FreeBSD" edition? > > I don't know about that, but there could certainly be a "Daemons" > calendar. Or, if people are willing to dress their kids up in > cute daemon costumes, a "Daemon Spawn" calendar. ;-) Hey, now! We resemble that remark! -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 12:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from alcanet.com.au (border.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9911533B for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter.jeremy@auss2.alcatel.com.au) Received: by border.alcanet.com.au id <40363>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:34:12 +1000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:46:34 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: FreeBSD in the Newspapers To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <99Mar18.063412est.40363@border.alcanet.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's a reasonable sized article `Rising Support for BSD', which is mostly about FreeBSD, in Tuesday's Sydney Morning Herald. The article occupies about 50 column inches, including a large photo of the 2.0.5R CD-ROM artwork (from Tatsumi's web page - with acknowledgement). The text can be found at http://www.it.fairfax.com.au/990316/openline1.html Cheers, Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 13:37:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2918A154D5 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA47038; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:36:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , Nocturne , Alex Zepeda , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <4.1.19990317080703.00ce0d50@localhost> <36F00E52.A08D40E6@softweyr.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 17 Mar 1999 22:36:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:19:30 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > Brett Glass wrote: > > I don't know about that, but there could certainly be a "Daemons" > > calendar. Or, if people are willing to dress their kids up in > > cute daemon costumes, a "Daemon Spawn" calendar. ;-) > Hey, now! We resemble that remark! ITYM "resent". HTH, HAND! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 14: 6:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88003154C4 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:06:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA98147; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:05:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeremy Lea Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:54:00 +0200." <19990316235359.F432@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:05:30 -0800 Message-ID: <98145.921708330@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At the very least they're in violation of the BSD advertising clause... I don't want to get into the "larger issues" here right now (too busy), but I just wanted to point out that the BSD advertising clause (and the documentation credit clause which follows it) has since been shown to be legally unenforceable. It counts for nothing. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 14:36:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C8015350 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA07368; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:34:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990317153337.00a72470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:34:01 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeremy Lea From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <98145.921708330@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:05 PM 3/17/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I don't want to get into the "larger issues" here right now (too >busy), but I just wanted to point out that the BSD advertising clause >(and the documentation credit clause which follows it) has since been >shown to be legally unenforceable. It counts for nothing. Interesting! Do you have a citation for this? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 14:54:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6896152C9 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:54:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA98507; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:54:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:49:43 EST." Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:54:36 -0800 Message-ID: <98505.921711276@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Other than complaining on how FreeBSD and NetBSD were not really given > enough credit in the press releases for this, how do people think this > Apple strategy will work out wrt *BSD's? If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are just as valuable in their own way. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 15:33:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDFE150AB for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA07921; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:32:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990317162855.03e94b60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:32:48 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Garance A Drosihn From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <98505.921711276@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:54 PM 3/17/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so >much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be >*very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but >there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones >who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are >just as valuable in their own way. Does the Apple license allow the FreeBSD Project to use what's contributed by third parties? As I read it, only the authors and Apple can use the changes, and Apple can't contribute other people's changes to the BSDs -- only its own. In short, the contributors to Apple's code have to be asked if they will ALSO contribute to the BSDs. (I don't see why they wouldn't, though.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 15:37:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 850681520E for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id IAA13795; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:37:46 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F03A26.847D9870@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:26:31 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Garance A Drosihn , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... References: <98505.921711276@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Other than complaining on how FreeBSD and NetBSD were not really given > > enough credit in the press releases for this, how do people think this > > Apple strategy will work out wrt *BSD's? > > If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so > much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be > *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but > there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones > who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are > just as valuable in their own way. Moreover, the point to many of us is getting *high quality code* to be used/available. I think this has been accomplished. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "What happened?" "It moved, sir!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 16:36:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD02151C1 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:36:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA30735; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Wes Peters , Brett Glass , Nocturne , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 17 Mar 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Wes Peters writes: > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > I don't know about that, but there could certainly be a "Daemons" > > > calendar. Or, if people are willing to dress their kids up in > > > cute daemon costumes, a "Daemon Spawn" calendar. ;-) > > Hey, now! We resemble that remark! > > ITYM "resent". HTH, HAND! We might resemble it, ya never know. But what we do need is a big inflatable Daemon. I mean, if you saw the pictures of Linux World... http://marc.merlins.org/linux/lwce_winter99/Day2/Showfloor.html#Slashdot And noticed jkh looks well.. stoned. Not that I'm not wondering about this guy: http://marc.merlins.org/linux/lwce_winter99/Day2/Showfloor/80_linuxmall.jpg Besides, a float in a Macy's parade would rock.. sixty feet of Chuck... hell yeah! - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 16:47:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4455314C0A for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25664; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:46:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd025634; Wed Mar 17 17:46:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA22250; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:46:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903180046.RAA22250@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Apple's open source... To: reg@shale.csir.co.za (Jeremy Lea) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:46:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <19990316235359.F432@shale.csir.co.za> from "Jeremy Lea" at Mar 16, 99 11:54:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, what's the verdict... http://www.publicsource.apple.com/ > > I'm not one for Brett style advocacy, but this takes the cake. They > used BSD and CMU licensed software to develop most of the OS, and then > release it with a big announcement of 'open source' under a more > restrictive license... Seems to be basically the Netscape Public > Licence with a s/Netscape/Apple Public/g. And they invite ESR to the > launch. > > Not one mention of NetBSD, or FreeBSD. And yes we remember that they > used a NetBSD userland, with lots of FreeBSD thrown in... > > http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=928440&c=3 > http://www.geocrawler.com/mail_msg.php3?msg_id=772422&c=3 > > At the very least they're in violation of the BSD advertising clause... No, they aren't, uless they cit specific features or use of the code. They probably specifically didn't mention FreeBSD and NetBSD because of the caluse, in fact. 8-). The license qualifies as Open Source under the ESR/board definition of Open Source (I think a more correct term would be "Source Available", but that would lead to ESR's bandwagon being smaller, and as far as I can tell, the whole Open Source thing is about number of people in the wagon, not any philosophical or philanthropic leanings ESR has. Basically, they are making sure you give away source code so that they can snag it, and that you assign any patent rights via a non-revocable license in combination with an assignment of the code or derivative works thereof. You are still free to build an Apple hardware based Cobalt box (for example) and have proprietary code on the thing, in addition to the OS. The main dodge seems to be the patent rights and making the source to modifications available to Apple, if they should ask for it while, or within 12 months after you stop, shipping a product on the code. It might be highly amusing to port the thing to Intel. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 17:33:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE0D15485 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17158; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:33:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017100; Wed Mar 17 18:33:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA25941; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:33:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903180133.SAA25941@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Apple's open source... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:33:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: reg@shale.csir.co.za, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <98145.921708330@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 17, 99 02:05:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > At the very least they're in violation of the BSD advertising clause... > > I don't want to get into the "larger issues" here right now (too > busy), but I just wanted to point out that the BSD advertising clause > (and the documentation credit clause which follows it) has since been > shown to be legally unenforceable. It counts for nothing. Can you cite this? I have a copy of the Opinion by the judge in the USL vs. UCB/BSDI suit, rendered in regard to the countersuit by UCB against USL, that states that it *is* enforceable. Note that this isn't a Judgement, merely an Opinion following the pretrial motions. It was my understanding that this statement, in combination with other statements regarding the potential merits of the USL claims rendered in the same Opinion were the reason USL decided to pursue a settlement. As an Opinion, it doesn't bear much weight, but if you were to pursue a similar claim in the same venue (the 5th US District Court), I find it unlikely that you wouldn't get a similar answer. In addition, since the UCB license doesn't contain a severability clause, it seems to me that if that license term was held to be invalid, that the license as a whole would be held to be invalid. And since the license is the only thing granting you rights to use the code, your right to use the code would be revoked, pending you obtaining a relicense from the original author(s) and/or assigns. So while you may not like the so-called advertising clause because you buy into Stallman's erroneous arguments about "pile on" (which only occurs when mentioning (a) features, or (b) use, of the software), holding the license to be invalid is not in your best interests, unless you have already obtained the source under an alternate license. I'm pretty sure neither I, not John Dyson, nor Sean Eric Fagin have been approached about alternate licensing... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 18:10:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B0F150AB for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19504; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:45:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019428; Wed Mar 17 18:45:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26695; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:45:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903180145.SAA26695@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Apple's open source... To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:45:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, drosih@rpi.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990317162855.03e94b60@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 17, 99 04:32:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so > >much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be > >*very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but > >there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones > >who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are > >just as valuable in their own way. > > Does the Apple license allow the FreeBSD Project to use what's > contributed by third parties? As I read it, only the authors > and Apple can use the changes, and Apple can't contribute > other people's changes to the BSDs -- only its own. In > short, the contributors to Apple's code have to be asked if > they will ALSO contribute to the BSDs. (I don't see why they > wouldn't, though.) It depends upon the aggregate license of the file being modified. The answer is, as in the Sun and USL cases, that merely plunking an agregate license statement does not hold you to terms stricter than the original license, unless you make functional modifications. The cites for this are the FTP software use of SCO "unplublished, proprietary" header files for their TCP/IP implementation on SCO Xenix, prior to TCP/IP being a part of the base OS. Now, it's interesting to note that the requirement for the license to be acknowledged before download *may* constitute a "shrinkwrap" license. If you agree to the terms of the license, you agree that any file labelled with their agregate license is covered by the license. I believe that this is irrespective of the lack of functional modifications, since you are given "value", in the form of the code that did not come from FreeBSD (or NetBSD or whatever) in exchange for your agreement. The actual hope that should be held out is that they will revise their license, as they have reserved the right to do, to ensure that they get copies of any modifications, but that you aren't required to distribute them to anyone else *but* them. The patent licenses can remain intact (though they will stick in the craw of many companies, I fear). The issue of the claim credit clause (more accurate than the Stallman characterization of "advertising clause" -- one wonders if he is "anti-choice or anti-life"; aren't Aristotilian means and binary absolutes wonderful tools for beating people over the head?) is one of whether they trigger it by specifically mentioning features or use of particular software covered by the clause in their advertising. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 19:15:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C793914C35 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:15:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA99587; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:14:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: reg@shale.csir.co.za, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:33:17 GMT." <199903180133.SAA25941@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:14:06 -0800 Message-ID: <99585.921726846@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Can you cite this? > > I have a copy of the Opinion by the judge in the USL vs. UCB/BSDI > suit, rendered in regard to the countersuit by UCB against USL, > that states that it *is* enforceable. I'd have to find the folks at BSDI who originally communicated this to me - it was a couple of years ago, so I make no guarantees, I simply know that they had it "vetted" by a lawyer and that's what he said. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 19:59:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8BF15286 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:59:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA99835 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Prev-Resent: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:59:48 -0800 Prev-Resent: "advocacy@freebsd.org " Forwarded: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:34:44 -0800 Forwarded: "local-tech@cdrom.com " Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07005 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dxmerch@earthlink.net) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by time.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA39803 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dxmerch@earthlink.net) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17163 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from red-anus (ip175.san-francisco34.ca.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.84.175]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05572 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:45:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990315104324.00933670@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: dxmerch@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:44:50 -0800 To: jkh@cdrom.com From: "Dennis E. Burke" Subject: Enterarts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ From CNN's newswire service ] Enterarts, Inc. Feasibility Marketing Study Completed for Art Portal Project PHOENIX--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 15, 1999--Keith Chesser, president, Deerbrook Publishing Group (OTC BB:DBPG) announces that its wholly owned subsidiary Enterarts, Inc. has completed its Feasibility & Marketing Study for its Internet Art Portal project and will begin implementation immediately. Decisions on some of the supporting technology have been made. Operating Systems such as Microsoft's NT (Nasdaq:MSFT), SUN -- Solaris (Nasdaq:SUNW), Linux and FreeBSD were all considered. The company has selected the FreeBSD operating system. FreeBSD is an advanced BSD Unix operating system for "PC-compatible" computers. Using the included SAMBA software, we can share files with Win95 or NT applications. FreeBSD also supports AppleTalk (Nasdaq:AAPL) and Novell (Nasdaq:NOVL). Because we anticipate a high traffic Web portal, capacity and reliability were important factors in our decision, considering the track record of other high traffic portals such as Infoseek.com (Nasdaq:SEEK), Excite.com (Nasdaq:XCIT) Yahoo.com (Nasdaq:YHOO) who utilize FreeBSD, we feel this OS is the most suitable to run a reliable and responsive Web server. The study was conducted by Anna Gregg who was contracted recently to spearhead the company's Internet Art Portal project. Ms. Gregg specializes in evaluations on company needs, network designs and implementation, managerial, business development, operations, marketing and sales for the communications industry. Experience includes tenure at MCI/WorldCom (Nasdaq:WCOM) as a Strategic Investment Account Manager and Consultant to MCI's Executive Management and Engineering Team, Precision Systems, Inc. (The Home Shopping Network) (Nasdaq:PSYS) as Director of Technical Sales, Consultant to AT&T Paradyne, Inc. (NYSE:T), Director/Network Design Manager for Contel Federal Systems/Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), National Network Technical Support Representative for Satellite Business Systems/IBM (NYSE:IBM) and Lab Engineer/Account Field Engineer for Northern Telecom/Nortel (NYSE:NT). Gregg also possesses numerous specialized certifications and skills with Internet Frame Relay, ARM, SMDS, Remote LAN Dial, Video/Audio Conferencing, Sun workstations, T-1 Span Line, Fiber Optic Networks etc. Persons seeking additional information and/or those who would like to be added to the company's email list for future updates and press releases, may send email to Wired@JazzAndJava.com. This press release contains forward-looking information within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and is subject to the safe harbors created by those sections. Actual results may differ materially due to a number of risks, including the uncertainty of completion of the contemplated transactions. This press release provides general information and should not be construed as an offer to sell securities. The material contained herein has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable, but is not complete and its accuracy can not be guaranteed. This report is for informational purposes only and should not be construed as advice or meet the investment needs of any particular investor or designed to be the basis of any investment decisions. * CONTACT: Randy Howard, 602/850-4345 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 20:57:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F01114C19 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 1524 invoked by alias); 18 Mar 1999 04:57:28 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 1377 invoked by uid 0); 18 Mar 1999 04:57:22 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 18 Mar 1999 04:57:22 -0000 Message-ID: <36F087B0.CBBA9E60@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:57:20 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Zepeda wrote: >http://marc.merlins.org/linux/lwce_winter99/Day2/Showfloor.html#Slashdot From higher up the page: "Yes, the FreeBSD guys had a booth. If you haven't had a chance to try it, you really should. It is still faster and more robust that[sic] linux for certain things (after all, it's based on code that is more than 15 years old, and that also has been reviewed and improved by thousands of people). Linux still has a lot to learn from Freebsd, and this includes the efficiency of their team (compare a core team that uses CVS vs Linus who does all commits via text patch through pine editor, and that this medium has a variable high drop rate). Let's hope bitmover fixes some of those issues." Now all we have to do is convince the rest of the world. :-) Also this quote from JKH: "...FreeBSD, based on 15y+ old code written by a bunch of people is certainly as sexy as Linux, which was written from scratch, originally by one guy." Jordan, is this a misquote? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 21: 7:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52DB14E3B for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00356; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:07:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nocturne Cc: Alex Zepeda , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:57:20 PST." <36F087B0.CBBA9E60@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:07:46 -0800 Message-ID: <353.921733666@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Also this quote from JKH: > > "...FreeBSD, based on 15y+ old code written by a bunch of people is > certainly as sexy as Linux, which was written from scratch, originally > by one guy." > > Jordan, is this a misquote? It's definitely a misquote of some sort. For one thing, I would have said "is not as sexy" since it doesn't make sense the way it's phrased (the analogy conflicts with the purpose of the sentence :). I'm also not sure if that's "exactly" what I said, but I've made the comment more than once that one of the reasons the press doesn't talk to us is because we're a bunch of "old men" working on an "old operating system", not some young and sexy OS newcomer with a nice Cinderella story behind him ("young Finnish computer science student conquers world" - the press just eats that up). Given than, I'm sure it's close enough to what I said or meant and we just need to throw a "not" in there at the right place to make the quote parse. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 21:52:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0277B154DB for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:52:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id OAA26830; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:52:08 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F09323.4BAD44CA@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:46:11 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nocturne Cc: Alex Zepeda , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <36F087B0.CBBA9E60@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nocturne wrote: > > Also this quote from JKH: > > "...FreeBSD, based on 15y+ old code written by a bunch of people is > certainly as sexy as Linux, which was written from scratch, originally > by one guy." > > Jordan, is this a misquote? The PC term is "creative listening"... ;-> -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "What happened?" "It moved, sir!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 21:53:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C2814DE1 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:53:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA02484; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:56:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:56:34 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Garance A Drosihn , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-Reply-To: <98505.921711276@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Other than complaining on how FreeBSD and NetBSD were not really given > > enough credit in the press releases for this, how do people think this > > Apple strategy will work out wrt *BSD's? > > If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so > much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be > *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but > there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones > who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are > just as valuable in their own way. > > - Jordan I think we are all forgetting that there is one place that the lineage of the MacOS X sources: the copyright headers in so many files. It's hard to hide this when you distribute the sources. ;-) The advertising clause notwithstanding, copyright law is enforcible. Still, it's pretty cool for a company that was sooooo closed in the past. cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 21:59:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C62F14DAD for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02495; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:00:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:00:00 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-Reply-To: <199903180046.RAA22250@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > It might be highly amusing to port the thing to Intel. > > > Terry Lambert ROTFL. Seriously though, wasn't Rhapsody running on Intel at some point. This is Rhapsody, right? Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 22:31:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from moremagic.merlins.org (adsl-209-233-33-50.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.233.33.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A6814D61 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@merlins.org) Received: (from merlin@localhost) by moremagic.merlins.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA30641; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:25 -0800 Message-ID: <19990317223223.A29531@merlins.org> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:32:23 -0800 From: Marc Merlin To: Nocturne Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Alex Zepeda , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Wes Peters , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm not quite sure what to think of this... References: <387.921733855@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <387.921733855@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 09:10:55PM -0800 X-Sysadmin: BOFH X-URL: http://marc.merlins.org/ X-Operating-System: Proudly running Linux 2.2.2/Red Hat Linux release 5.2 (Apollo) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You can think of this that I'm a big bonehead :-( On Wed, Mar 17, 1999 at 09:10:55PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Also this quote from JKH: > > > > "...FreeBSD, based on 15y+ old code written by a bunch of people is > > certainly as sexy as Linux, which was written from scratch, originally > > by one guy." > > > > Jordan, is this a misquote? > > It's definitely a misquote of some sort. For one thing, I would have > said "is not as sexy" since it doesn't make sense the way it's phrased > (the analogy conflicts with the purpose of the sentence :). As the author of the http://marc.merlins.org/linux/lwce_winter99/Day2/Showfloor.html#Freebsd page, I'd like to apologize to everyone. This is obviously a misquote (I hope most people corrected in their mind when they read this). That's what you get for trying to do too much in too little time, with not sleep :-( Yes, the quote (from memory) was "is certainly _not_ as sexy as Linux". Jordan may also have said 25 years instead of 15 years, but I prefered to be safe and put 15y+ since either way the point remains the same. I started by adding the "not" and ended up rewording the whole sentence to make it closer to what Jordan said (yeah, I'm not a journalist, and I was just casually talking with him so I didn't exactly have a notepad with me to take notes as I wasn't interviewing him in the first place. It's only later that I thought I should put a few good words for FreeBSD in my page) Once again, I'm really sorry for the mess-up. My goal was obviously to help you guys and entice more linux people to take a look at FreeBSD instead of spending time on those "my distribution is better than yours" flamewars. Marc PS: Hopefully everyone should be happier with the new version of the page, but if you think I should modify it, I happily accept feedback (you should have Emailed me as soon as you read the page, I'd have fixed it sooner) PPS: you can reply to the from address, but if you want to originate a new message to it (i.e. without 'Re:' in the subject), you have to drop the "_news" part. -- "Microsoft is to software what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking" Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/ (friendly to non IE browsers) Finger marc_f@merlins.org for PGP key and other contact information To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 17 23:50:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E931538F for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA152540; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:51:31 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199903180046.RAA22250@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:50:20 -0500 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Terry Lambert From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:00 AM -0500 3/18/99, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: >On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> It might be highly amusing to port the thing to Intel. >> >> Terry Lambert > > ROTFL. Seriously though, wasn't Rhapsody running on Intel > at some point. This is Rhapsody, right? NeXTSTEP was available for Intel as of release 3.1. By release 3.3, it was also supporting HP/PA-RISC and Sun/SPARC workstations. I still compile some things "quad-FAT" (for all four architectures) on a NeXTstation at home. NeXTSTEP was renamed OPENSTEP with release 4.0. Support for HP hardware "faded away" at some point (4.0? 4.1? 4.2?). When Apple bought NeXT (the company), OPENSTEP (the OS) was code-named Rhapsody. As recently as the August 1998 release, Rhapsody was available for both PowerPC and Intel. No SPARC, no PA-RISC. Apple added more things, changed the GUI to be very MacOS-ish, and now call it "MacOS X Server". Chances are mighty good that most (if not all) of MacOS X Server is still running on some Intel hardware at Apple -- it's just that they are not going to make that available as a product. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 1:56:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B457153D9 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA09798; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:57:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903180957.BAA09798@pike.cdrom.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: BSD advertising clause In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:14:06 PST." <99585.921726846@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:57:34 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" said... >> Can you cite this? >> >> I have a copy of the Opinion by the judge in the USL vs. UCB/BSDI >> suit, rendered in regard to the countersuit by UCB against USL, >> that states that it *is* enforceable. > >I'd have to find the folks at BSDI who originally communicated this to >me - it was a couple of years ago, so I make no guarantees, I simply >know that they had it "vetted" by a lawyer and that's what he said. I saw an article a while ago by a law professor from Berkeley who felt it was invalid. I don't remember her name, and I can't find the article, but as I recall, she made two arguements: 1. It violates the "fair use" provisions of copyright law. Anyone has a right to mention things like features and use of software, and you cannot use copyright conditions to deprive someone of these rights. 2. It constitues "restraint of trade", because it puts conditions not only on the party doing the copying, but also on third parties such as distributors and resellers. In the US, once you sell a product, you cannot put any conditions on how it will be sold, such as price levels, discounts, channels, or advertising restrictions. That is collusion and restraint of trade. The "advertising clause" is probably unenforcable. But that doesn't seem to matter, since no one seems interested in enforcing it anyway. The only effect it has is to provide ammunition to detractors of the BSD license, and maybe enough legal uncertainty to convince a few people to avoid using BSD software. I have never talked to anyone who thinks it is a good idea. We should try to get it revoked. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 7:24:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054D014DF9 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA14203; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:23:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318082221.03f07c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:23:49 -0700 To: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD advertising clause Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903180957.BAA09798@pike.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:57 AM 3/18/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: >2. It constitues "restraint of trade", because it puts conditions not > only on the party doing the copying, but also on third parties such > as distributors and resellers. In the US, once you sell a product, > you cannot put any conditions on how it will be sold, such as price > levels, discounts, channels, or advertising restrictions. That is > collusion and restraint of trade. I was under the impression that this was called the "first sale" doctrine. In any event, wouldn't this invalidate parts of the GPL, too? And/or the notice on many products that says, "For non-commercial use only?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 8: 2:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5361544F for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:02:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA08365; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:04:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:04:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Garance A Drosihn Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Terry Lambert , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > Apple added more things, changed the GUI to be very MacOS-ish, > and now call it "MacOS X Server". Chances are mighty good that > most (if not all) of MacOS X Server is still running on some > Intel hardware at Apple -- it's just that they are not going > to make that available as a product. And this is a mistake for Apple, IMHO. Personally, I'd love to see Apple and MacOS give Winblows a run for its money. I also wouldn't mind running ClarisWorks or similar on a FreeBSD box under MacOS emulation ;) but that's another story entirely. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 10: 6:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADA514EBF for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:06:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24279; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:57:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd024246; Thu Mar 18 11:57:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05591; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:05:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903181805.LAA05591@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD advertising clause To: rab@pike.cdrom.com (Robert A. Bruce) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:05:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903180957.BAA09798@pike.cdrom.com> from "Robert A. Bruce" at Mar 18, 99 01:57:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I saw an article a while ago by a law professor from Berkeley who felt > it was invalid. I don't remember her name, and I can't find the article, > but as I recall, she made two arguements: > > 1. It violates the "fair use" provisions of copyright law. Anyone has > a right to mention things like features and use of software, and you > cannot use copyright conditions to deprive someone of these rights. This is utter BS. I can't believe a law professor from Berkeley who was willing to make such comments in a public forum has not read the law; this makes me doubt either your veracity or your memory. Here is the relevent cite: --------------------------------------------------------------------- United States Code TITLE 17 - COPYRIGHTS Sec. 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include - (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors. Sec. 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided: (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful. Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This pretty blatantly contraindicates your claim. Note that the people who drafted the law know the disctinction between the words "use" and "utilize", unlike Richard Stallman. > 2. It constitues "restraint of trade", because it puts conditions not > only on the party doing the copying, but also on third parties such > as distributors and resellers. In the US, once you sell a product, > you cannot put any conditions on how it will be sold, such as price > levels, discounts, channels, or advertising restrictions. That is > collusion and restraint of trade. This is also utter BS. I can cite here, as well, but the cite will be significantly longer, and therefore harder to follow for a layman who has not invested significant time studying law. The problem with this argument is the construction; it would be true if what were being sold were the cod, but that is not what is sold when you obtain software. Instead, what you are buying is a license to use the software. This is why ownership of the media and accompanying materials is retained by the company granting the license. Because the construction is preconditioned on a sale of the software, not the license, and there is no sale of the software, the conclusion is not supported. > The "advertising clause" is probably unenforcable. But that doesn't > seem to matter, since no one seems interested in enforcing it anyway. It's enforcable. It was a primary basis of the UCB countersuit, and it was not summarily thrown out as a faulty construction. This is a matter of public record, available to anyone who sends a self addressed stamped envelope, a FOIA request form, and copying fees to the 5th district court clerk's office. Alternately, you can present in person and merely pay a copying fee. The same process can get you a copy of the preliminary Opinion which was rendered when the case was remanded. > The only effect it has is to provide ammunition to detractors of the > BSD license, and maybe enough legal uncertainty to convince a few people > to avoid using BSD software. No more ammunition than the viral nature of the GPL. The GPL doesn't qualify as restraint of trade, since, like the UCB license, it's a license, not a transfer of ownership. But it *does* qualify as racketeering under the RICO statutes. Check out the legal basis for the McCarthy-era HUAC anti-communist witch hunts. > I have never talked to anyone who thinks it is a good idea. We should > try to get it revoked. Well, then you've never talked to a developer. You can have my claim credit clause when you pry it from my cold, dead hands; it's the only thing preventing my code from being infected by the GPL such that I can never use my code in a commercial product unless I want to become a job-shop programmer ultimately working for the "GNU Manifesto". If you want an alternate license for my code, I will be happy to provide one that specifically prohibits licensing of it or of any derivative works under terms requiring the distribution of source. I have been thinking about relicensing my code under such a clause for a long time time now. I feel that if Cisco, for example, can't use my networking code in their products, that it really doesn't have the intended effect of raising the bar for everyone; it's unlikely that Cisco will code up a new frob if the vast majority of the world doesn't demand it. And they won't, because the vast majority of the world uses Cisco, and it doesn't have the new frob. If the only people for whom the bar is raised is the subset of society holding Marxist philosophies, what is the point of putting the code out there? Why put it out there for anyone, if I'm not putting it out there for everyone? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 10:13:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FEE14E34 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27380; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:05:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd027353; Thu Mar 18 12:05:05 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06611; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:12:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903181812.LAA06611@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD advertising clause To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:12:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990318082221.03f07c30@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 18, 99 08:23:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >2. It constitues "restraint of trade", because it puts conditions not > > only on the party doing the copying, but also on third parties such > > as distributors and resellers. In the US, once you sell a product, > > you cannot put any conditions on how it will be sold, such as price > > levels, discounts, channels, or advertising restrictions. That is > > collusion and restraint of trade. > > I was under the impression that this was called the "first sale" > doctrine. > > In any event, wouldn't this invalidate parts of the GPL, too? And/or > the notice on many products that says, "For non-commercial use only?" No. It's "first use doctorine", not "first sale doctorine". First use doctorine only applies to transfer of ownership of the media. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 11:38:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D53D14E58 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18193; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:38:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com (Robert A. Bruce), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD advertising clause In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:05:34 GMT." <199903181805.LAA05591@usr04.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:38:59 -0800 Message-ID: <18191.921785939@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is utter BS. I can't believe a law professor from Berkeley who > was willing to make such comments in a public forum has not read the > law; this makes me doubt either your veracity or your memory. Here is > the relevent cite: I can't believe that somebody with no formal legal training would jump into this argument and attempt a more "correct" interpretation either. I have no reason to believe your interpretation is any less BS than any other (in fact, given who it's coming from, my BS meter is more or less pegged at the moment) and I would much much rather see someone with actual legal training vs mere pretentions at it come in and clear things up at this point; watching a bunch of hackers who haven't passed the bar debate it doesn't exactly meet my criteria for productive discussion either. Why don't we just shelve this until someone who's actually a lawyer can be consulted? > Well, then you've never talked to a developer. You can have my claim > credit clause when you pry it from my cold, dead hands; it's the only He's not talking about the "claim credit" clause - the "advertising clause" he's talking about doesn't effect you at all. This is a red herring. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 12:19:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from astor.interport.net (astor.interport.net [199.184.165.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2F60156C2; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@interport.net) Received: from interport.net (seth@park.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.2]) by astor.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09365; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (seth@localhost) by interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12999; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:17:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Netscape browser Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just FYI (please forgive me if this is out-of-line, but it's my first email to this group): I spoke with some Netscape developers on the 16th. They confirmed that Microsoft will be porting MSIE to Linux [1]. I asked them what it would take to get FreeBSD on their list of "Officially Supported" platforms. They said that there is interest among the developers [2], but that they'd need emails sent to nav-support@netscape.com to gauge interest. Can we get the word out? I don't think spamming them is a great idea, but one email per address, short, polite, and to the point, might get us a native port that's supported. After that we might be able to talk them into porting their server applications :) If you need more info, please let me know. Thanks. SB [1] According to the developer I talked to, Microsoft's slogan for this project is "Bringing the Internet to Unix". [2] My feeling is that it's worth their while to officially support a native FreeBSD port, since we already have the option of running Linux bins. Since I think most people would rather run a native port than an emulated one (comments?), this gives Netscape an opportunity to "lock in" the FreeBSD userbase before M$ gets an opportunity. Seth Bromberger seth@interport.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 12:48:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA69814E1C for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:48:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA073618061; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:14:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:14:21 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: > [1] According to the developer I talked to, Microsoft's slogan for this > project is "Bringing the Internet to Unix". I hate to break it to the boys in Redmond, but Unix the only reason the Internet came to them in the first place. It's good to see Microsoft becoming the foster parent of the Internet, I must have missed the press release claiming ownership. > [2] My feeling is that it's worth their while to officially support a > native FreeBSD port, since we already have the option of running Linux > bins. Since I think most people would rather run a native port than an > emulated one (comments?), this gives Netscape an opportunity to "lock in" > the FreeBSD userbase before M$ gets an opportunity. Native applications are always going to run better the emulated ones, you never have to worry about a specific case that hasn't been brought up before. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 14:24:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from astor.interport.net (astor.interport.net [199.184.165.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B2014D54 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@interport.net) Received: from interport.net (seth@park.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.2]) by astor.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27934; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (seth@localhost) by interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21452; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:24:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:24:00 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy To: Bill Fumerola Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > I hate to break it to the boys in Redmond, but Unix the only reason the > Internet came to them in the first place. > > It's good to see Microsoft becoming the foster parent of the > Internet, I must have missed the press release claiming ownership. > You didn't miss it. Al Gore volunteered to be their spokesperson. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 14:57: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED031548F; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA18683; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:56:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:56:12 -0700 To: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:17 PM 3/18/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >I spoke with some Netscape developers on the 16th. They confirmed that >Microsoft will be porting MSIE to Linux [1]. I asked them what it would >take to get FreeBSD on their list of "Officially Supported" platforms. >They said that there is interest among the developers [2], but that they'd >need emails sent to nav-support@netscape.com to gauge interest. Funny: Bill Gates recently mentioned FreeBSD by name in an interview, but not Linux. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 15:10:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396C91548F; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:10:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00706; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:09:37 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jason J. Horton" Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images Message-ID: <19990318150936.B27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason J. Horton on Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:15:03PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Jason J. Horton wrote: > Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images > of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff > off of websites. Does anyone have any images to recommend? I'm sure we've all seen the German site with a whole bunch of small, low res stuff, but what Jason is probably looking for (and what I am definitely looking for) is a few large, print-quality images of Beastie. Can anyone help? Regards, Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 15:46:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcc.ctc.edu (bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.180.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 843C914E78; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA20820; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:37:34 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images In-Reply-To: <19990318150936.B27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Jason J. Horton wrote: > > Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images > > of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff > > off of websites. > > Does anyone have any images to recommend? I'm sure we've all seen the > German site with a whole bunch of small, low res stuff, but what Jason > is probably looking for (and what I am definitely looking for) is a few > large, print-quality images of Beastie. Can anyone help? My wife has drawn some new ones for her comic strip on the Daemon News. I might be able to talk my wife in to giving out an original or drawing a custom one, depending on the purpose. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 16:27:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A56F114BC9; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-110-184.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.110.184]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA07640; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:26:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36F19986.A33178F@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:25:42 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: fr, en, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:17 PM 3/18/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: > > >I spoke with some Netscape developers on the 16th. They confirmed that > >Microsoft will be porting MSIE to Linux [1]. I asked them what it would > >take to get FreeBSD on their list of "Officially Supported" platforms. > >They said that there is interest among the developers [2], but that they'd > >need emails sent to nav-support@netscape.com to gauge interest. > > Funny: Bill Gates recently mentioned FreeBSD by name in an interview, but > not Linux. > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message I'd like to know, if they support it for *BSD, will it work on the MacOS X and vice versa? How much compatibility is there (or do you expect) between MacOS X and FreeBSD? I'm not a programmer :-) Thank You -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][French piss me off! - Cartman, South Park] [The FreeBSD User Guide][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/freebsd/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 16:45:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6D014F11; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10NnPN-0004MH-0A; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:45:06 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00366; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:44:36 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00326; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:41:32 GMT (envelope-from marko) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:41:32 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netscape browser Message-ID: <19990319004132.A276@marder-1.localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Zippy on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 03:17:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 03:17:39PM -0500, Zippy wrote: > Just FYI (please forgive me if this is out-of-line, but it's my first > email to this group): > > I spoke with some Netscape developers on the 16th. They confirmed that > Microsoft will be porting MSIE to Linux [1]. I asked them what it would > take to get FreeBSD on their list of "Officially Supported" platforms. [checks calendar to make sure it's not 1st April] Err, why exactly would any self-respecting Unix user want Internet Exploder? > They said that there is interest among the developers [2], but that they'd > need emails sent to nav-support@netscape.com to gauge interest. > > Can we get the word out? I don't think spamming them is a great idea, but > one email per address, short, polite, and to the point, might get us a > native port that's supported. After that we might be able to talk them > into porting their server applications :) > > > If you need more info, please let me know. Thanks. > > SB > > [1] According to the developer I talked to, Microsoft's slogan for this > project is "Bringing the Internet to Unix". > Hahahaha, ROFL, and just what do they think has been running the Internet for the last God knows how many years? If all the Unix boxes on the 'net were replaced with NT tonight, the Internet wouldn't exist tomorrow. Mind you, I guess you've got to admire M$ for having the balls to use that slogan. > [2] My feeling is that it's worth their while to officially support a > native FreeBSD port, since we already have the option of running Linux > bins. M$ support FreeBSD? Isn't that like King Herod supporting an orphanage? > Since I think most people would rather run a native port than an > emulated one (comments?), this gives Netscape an opportunity to "lock in" > the FreeBSD userbase before M$ gets an opportunity. > > > > Seth Bromberger seth@interport.net > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 16:59:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FEC14E1C; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:59:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA29179; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:29:10 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA79390; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:29:10 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:29:09 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) References: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 03:56:12PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 18 March 1999 at 15:56:12 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:17 PM 3/18/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: > >> I spoke with some Netscape developers on the 16th. They confirmed that >> Microsoft will be porting MSIE to Linux [1]. I asked them what it would >> take to get FreeBSD on their list of "Officially Supported" platforms. >> They said that there is interest among the developers [2], but that they'd >> need emails sent to nav-support@netscape.com to gauge interest. > > Funny: Bill Gates recently mentioned FreeBSD by name in an interview, but > not Linux. Details? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 17:37: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from isinet.com (mail.isinet.com [199.4.155.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DF914DF2; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aturoff@isinet.com) Received: by pandora.isinet.com id <113793>; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:25:31 -0500 Message-Id: <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:34:28 -0500 From: Adam Turoff Reply-To: aturoff@isinet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) References: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 18 March 1999 at 15:56:12 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > Funny: Bill Gates recently mentioned FreeBSD by name in an interview, but > > not Linux. > > Details? If you search lwn.net 6-10 weeks ago, you'll find a better version of this reference. Basically, billg was interviewed by ix in Germany, back when they were beating the 'sure we have competition -- look at Linux' drum. Same context. Except that billg said FreeBSD instead of Linux. The microsoft-ologists came to the conclusion that this is an example of microsoft's internal compliance department (or marketing, or PR, or somesuch) at work. The story goes that there is an internal gestapo that fines anyone who talks to the press and mentions a term/competitor by name if that term/competitor is on the internal blacklist. The mention of FreeBSD was thought to mean that Linux made it onto the blacklist, but billg had a prepared speech, so he s/Linux/FreeBSD/g; to avoid paying the fine. Of course, I read this on the web, so it *MUST* be true. -- Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 17:41: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BFE14D22; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:39:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA29361; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:09:21 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA79735; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:09:21 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990319120920.J429@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:09:20 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: aturoff@isinet.com Cc: Brett Glass , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) References: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com>; from Adam Turoff on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 08:34:28PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 18 March 1999 at 20:34:28 -0500, Adam Turoff wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Thursday, 18 March 1999 at 15:56:12 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >>> Funny: Bill Gates recently mentioned FreeBSD by name in an interview, but >>> not Linux. >> >> Details? > > If you search lwn.net 6-10 weeks ago, you'll find a better version > of this reference. > > Basically, billg was interviewed by ix in Germany, back when they > were beating the 'sure we have competition -- look at Linux' drum. > > Same context. Except that billg said FreeBSD instead of Linux. Ah yes, I remember that well. I was the person who posted the message. Bill *did* mention Linux. But in his usual evasive fashion, only when they were talking about something else. When they talked about Linux, he replied about FreeBSD. I see this more as an indication of his evasive style than anything about Linux or FreeBSD. > The microsoft-ologists came to the conclusion that this is an example > of microsoft's internal compliance department (or marketing, or PR, > or somesuch) at work. The story goes that there is an internal gestapo > that fines anyone who talks to the press and mentions a term/competitor > by name if that term/competitor is on the internal blacklist. > > The mention of FreeBSD was thought to mean that Linux made it onto > the blacklist, but billg had a prepared speech, so he s/Linux/FreeBSD/g; > to avoid paying the fine. Yes. This, too, was mentioned, and I sent out a more detailed explanation refuting it. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 18:34:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server1.cyberix.com (server1.cyberix.com [207.106.53.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E7714BDD for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad@cyberix.com) Received: from BillyJoeBob (max1-ppp-8.cyberix.com [207.106.53.187]) by server1.cyberix.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA04335; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:28:29 -0500 (EST) From: "Brad Benson" To: "Malartre" Cc: Subject: RE: Netscape browser Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:32:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000201be71b0$c321af20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <36F19986.A33178F@aei.ca> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd like to know, if they support it for *BSD, will it work on the MacOS > X and vice versa? How much compatibility is there (or do you expect) > between MacOS X and FreeBSD? > I'm not a programmer :-) > Thank You From everything I read, it seems that the only real *BSD part of MacOS X is the userland. The kernel is Mach based and The GUI is not X windows. I'm not sure how it works, but they have developed there own GUI. Apple basically went out and took a dab from here and a dab from there to come up with something new. I'm under the impression that most *unix apps will compile under OSX, but I doubt seriously anything from FreeBSD could be run from a binary on OSX. I also wonder what would be involved in porting GUI X-windows apps to OSX's new GUI. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 18:39: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC6514F10 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:39:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19550; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, r3cgm@cdrom.com Subject: Re: Daemon images In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:09:37 PST." <19990318150936.B27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:39:16 -0800 Message-ID: <19548.921811156@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Does anyone have any images to recommend? I'm sure we've all seen the > German site with a whole bunch of small, low res stuff, but what Jason > is probably looking for (and what I am definitely looking for) is a few > large, print-quality images of Beastie. Can anyone help? Please see http://www.freebsdmall.com under the Advocacy section, and please don't cross-post; this doesn't belong in -questions and -advocacy both. We're trying to make this a definitive collection of daemon imagery, so those with images not found on this site should send mail to r3cgm@cdrom.com and give them to him. Hopefully, in time, we can make this a one-stop-shop for all "professional quality" images. I've already started the ball rolling with high resolution JPEG and EPS versions of the 5 images commissioned from the Dutch design house. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 18:57:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4E0714CA0 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA05515; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:56:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:56:51 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, r3cgm@cdrom.com Subject: Re: Daemon images Message-ID: <19990318185651.F27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <19990318150936.B27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> <19548.921811156@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19548.921811156@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 06:39:16PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 06:39:16PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Does anyone have any images to recommend? I'm sure we've all seen the > > German site with a whole bunch of small, low res stuff, but what Jason > > is probably looking for (and what I am definitely looking for) is a few > > large, print-quality images of Beastie. Can anyone help? > > Please see http://www.freebsdmall.com under the Advocacy section, and > > We're trying to make this a definitive collection of daemon imagery, > so those with images not found on this site should send mail to > r3cgm@cdrom.com and give them to him. Hopefully, in time, we can make > this a one-stop-shop for all "professional quality" images. I've > already started the ball rolling with high resolution JPEG and EPS > versions of the 5 images commissioned from the Dutch design house. Actually, that page contains only a link to the German FreeBSD graphics page. Are you being prescient again, Jordan? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Information wants to be free. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 19: 6:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DCB154CD for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19711; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:06:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, r3cgm@cdrom.com Subject: Re: Daemon images In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:56:51 PST." <19990318185651.F27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:06:35 -0800 Message-ID: <19709.921812795@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Actually, that page contains only a link to the German FreeBSD graphics > page. Are you being prescient again, Jordan? Christopher (r3cgm) is supposed to make a picture gallery there; I sent him all the "seed" pictures already. If he hasn't set this up yet then get on his case since I've already announced it and he was *supposed* to have set it up by now. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 19:11:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C0E14F70; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ingrid@cityscope.net) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA00422; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:10:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from ogd-ut1-05.ix.netcom.com(205.186.175.37) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000327; Thu Mar 18 21:10:02 1999 Message-ID: <36F1C073.69F25B4B@cityscope.net> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:11:47 -0600 From: Ingrid Kast Fuller Reply-To: ingrid@cityscope.net Organization: CityScope Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 10, 1999 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Jason J. Horton wrote: > > > Does anyone know where one can find decent hi resolution images > > > of the BSD Daemon? Everything I can find is small, low res stuff > > > off of websites. > > > > Does anyone have any images to recommend? I'm sure we've all seen the > > German site with a whole bunch of small, low res stuff, but what Jason > > is probably looking for (and what I am definitely looking for) is a few > > large, print-quality images of Beastie. Can anyone help? > > My wife has drawn some new ones for her comic strip on the Daemon News. I > might be able to talk my wife in to giving out an original or drawing a > custom one, depending on the purpose. > > -Chris Chris, Please ask her to make an original so that we can use it for making T-shirts or other marketing materials. Please let me know if she has time, I think it would be great! Ingrid Fuller To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 19:59: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71CD615527; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:58:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA21060; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:58:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318205557.03f2d3b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:58:10 -0700 To: Mark Ovens , Zippy From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990319004132.A276@marder-1.localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:41 AM 3/19/99 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Err, why exactly would any self-respecting Unix user want Internet >Exploder? For the same reason that any self-respecting Internet user would want AOL's browser. In other words, BOTH are bug-ridden and porked out and distributed by companies that may not have users' best interests in mind. Maybe we should try to get a FreeBSD port of Opera. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 19:59: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BA215524; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA21057; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:58:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318205117.03f2bdd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:54:52 -0700 To: Chris Coleman , Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Daemon images Cc: "Jason J. Horton" , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990318150936.B27599@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:37 PM 3/18/99 -0800, Chris Coleman wrote: >My wife has drawn some new ones for her comic strip on the Daemon News. I >might be able to talk my wife in to giving out an original or drawing a >custom one, depending on the purpose. > > -Chris And excellent drawings they are! For those who haven't seen Susannah's work, it can be found at http://www.daemonnews.org/199902/darby.html and http://www.daemonnews.org/199903/darby.html T-shirts featuring the characters from the strip would make great promotional items both for BSD-based OSes and for the strip itself. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20: 1: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F199815556; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA21086; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:00:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318205927.03f2e520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:00:21 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , aturoff@isinet.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990319120920.J429@lemis.com> References: <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:09 PM 3/19/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> The microsoft-ologists came to the conclusion that this is an example >> of microsoft's internal compliance department (or marketing, or PR, >> or somesuch) at work. The story goes that there is an internal gestapo >> that fines anyone who talks to the press and mentions a term/competitor >> by name if that term/competitor is on the internal blacklist. >> >> The mention of FreeBSD was thought to mean that Linux made it onto >> the blacklist, but billg had a prepared speech, so he s/Linux/FreeBSD/g; >> to avoid paying the fine. > >Yes. This, too, was mentioned, and I sent out a more detailed >explanation refuting it. Ah, but Ballmer has since verified it. It's a sort of game the execs play. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:12:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4086D14DBD; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:11:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA29926; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:41:27 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA80265; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:41:25 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990319144125.S429@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:41:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , aturoff@isinet.com Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) References: <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> <19990319120920.J429@lemis.com> <4.1.19990318205927.03f2e520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990318205927.03f2e520@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 18, 1999 at 09:00:21PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 18 March 1999 at 21:00:21 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:09 PM 3/19/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> The microsoft-ologists came to the conclusion that this is an example >>> of microsoft's internal compliance department (or marketing, or PR, >>> or somesuch) at work. The story goes that there is an internal gestapo >>> that fines anyone who talks to the press and mentions a term/competitor >>> by name if that term/competitor is on the internal blacklist. >>> >>> The mention of FreeBSD was thought to mean that Linux made it onto >>> the blacklist, but billg had a prepared speech, so he s/Linux/FreeBSD/g; >>> to avoid paying the fine. >> >> Yes. This, too, was mentioned, and I sent out a more detailed >> explanation refuting it. > > Ah, but Ballmer has since verified it. It's a sort of game the execs play. Ballmer verified that the c't article didn't mention Linux? He's wrong. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:28: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C894E15543; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:27:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02453; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:27:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:27:21 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Ingrid Kast Fuller Cc: Chris Coleman , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images In-Reply-To: <36F1C073.69F25B4B@cityscope.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Ingrid Kast Fuller wrote: > Chris Coleman wrote: > > My wife has drawn some new ones for her comic strip on the Daemon > > News. I might be able to talk my wife in to giving out an original > > or drawing a custom one, depending on the purpose. > Please ask her to make an original so that we can use it for making > T-shirts or other marketing materials. Please let me know if she has > time, I think it would be great! This has already been announced on the Daemon News mailing list so I'll assume it's okay to repost here. We have t-shirts! :-) http://ezine.daemonnews.org/tshirts.html Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:30: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A002914E60 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21279; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:29:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F1D2B1.B734E5A2@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:29:37 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990318205557.03f2d3b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:41 AM 3/19/99 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >Err, why exactly would any self-respecting Unix user want Internet > >Exploder? > > For the same reason that any self-respecting Internet user would want > AOL's browser. > > In other words, BOTH are bug-ridden and porked out and distributed by > companies that may not have users' best interests in mind. > > Maybe we should try to get a FreeBSD port of Opera. Maybe? Why don't you call or email them, Brett? It can't hurt to ask. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:44:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE42155CD for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA21391; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:44:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318214104.03f4bba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:41:42 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F1D2B1.B734E5A2@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990318205557.03f2d3b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:29 PM 3/18/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> Maybe we should try to get a FreeBSD port of Opera. > >Maybe? > >Why don't you call or email them, Brett? It can't hurt to ask. I did. Their initial reaction (about a year ago): We want to see a groundswell of interest. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:44:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C2115629; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA21396; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:44:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318214326.03f24f10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:44:17 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , aturoff@isinet.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990319144125.S429@lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990318205927.03f2e520@localhost> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> <19990319120920.J429@lemis.com> <4.1.19990318205927.03f2e520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:41 PM 3/19/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Ah, but Ballmer has since verified it. It's a sort of game the execs play. > >Ballmer verified that the c't article didn't mention Linux? He's >wrong. No, Ballmer mentioned that the execs have to pay into a kitty if they mention certain competitors by name during a public appearance. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:53:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F7214D08 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21312; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:53:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F1D82D.D62A15FB@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:53:01 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990318205557.03f2d3b0@localhost> <4.1.19990318214104.03f4bba0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:29 PM 3/18/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >> Maybe we should try to get a FreeBSD port of Opera. > > > >Maybe? > > > >Why don't you call or email them, Brett? It can't hurt to ask. > > I did. Their initial reaction (about a year ago): We want to see > a groundswell of interest. Yet another letter-writing campaign? How's their Linux version coming along? We might be able to stir up a bunch of interest if we can make a port or package and get people to "kick the tires" with the linuxulator. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 20:57:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999C9156C4 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:57:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA21510; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:56:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990318215447.03f129e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:56:33 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F1D82D.D62A15FB@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990318205557.03f2d3b0@localhost> <4.1.19990318214104.03f4bba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:53 PM 3/18/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >How's their Linux version coming along? We might be able to stir up >a bunch of interest if we can make a port or package and get people >to "kick the tires" with the linuxulator. The idea of getting app support via Linux emulation is a bad one; it guarantees that native support for FreeBSD will be rare. I'd rather see some folks (and, yes, I'd help, though I'm not qualified to do it alone) build FreeBSD emulation for Linux. Then, app vendors could make a business case for targeting FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 21: 9:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D5D714F77 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:09:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id AAA08155; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma008117; Fri, 19 Mar 99 00:08:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:08:41 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: <4.1.19990318215447.03f129e0@localhost> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > I'd rather see some folks (and, yes, I'd help, though I'm not qualified > to do it alone) build FreeBSD emulation for Linux. Then, app vendors could > make a business case for targeting FreeBSD. > > --Brett Tough sell, considering 1) Linux's press of late (the heads of software companies read the trades and WSJ and see Linux all over the place lately, but no mention of FreeBSD), and 2) Jordan's assertion that vendors should port to Linux instead of FreeBSD if they've only got resources for one. Maybe his stance would change if there were a FreeBSD emulator? I think that the prospects of getting native support for applications WITHOUT the vendors first developing for Linux are bleak, at least right now. I'm not sure whether a FreeBSD emulator for Linux would change that. It may be a good idea whose time isn't right. However, if the resources to develop such a beast are available now, why not? SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 18 22:26: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dns1.e-scape.net (unknown [207.245.48.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C43414D24 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:25:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefanos@dns1.e-scape.net) Received: (from stefanos@localhost) by dns1.e-scape.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18566 for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:22:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Stefanos Kiakas Message-Id: <199903190622.BAA18566@dns1.e-scape.net> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: MacOSX, X, GNUstep etc Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mac OS X is basically Nextstep/Openstep with cosmetic GUI changes for the average Mac user. It was possible to run X apps under Nextstep/Openstep by using software which implemented X on top of the Display Postscript server. The most interesting part of Mac OS X is the OpenStep object oriented framework for implementing applications. This framework is being implemented by GNUstep (www.gnustep.org), using the LGPL license. Several Nextstep/Openstep developers have said they will make their applications available for Linux/FreeBSD if GNUstep is source compatible with the work done by Apple. If porting an application is simple enough, I'm sure we can encourage other Mac developers to provide their applications for FreeBSD. Although I have not had the time to compile GNUstep on FreeBSD, I remember reading about the success of other users in compiling and running the GNUstep test applications under FreeBSD 3.1. stef To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 0:11:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcc.ctc.edu (bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.180.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25C915009; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA27093; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:02:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:02:03 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: Brett Taylor Cc: Ingrid Kast Fuller , freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Please ask her to make an original so that we can use it for making > > T-shirts or other marketing materials. Please let me know if she has > > time, I think it would be great! > > This has already been announced on the Daemon News mailing list so I'll > assume it's okay to repost here. We have t-shirts! :-) > > http://ezine.daemonnews.org/tshirts.html Thanks Brett. :-) Yes, we have T-Shirts :-) You will notice McKusick's Copyright at the bottom of the page. All things are kosher, we have the standard agreements. I have a few ideas for some other T-shirts that will soon be appearing on that web page. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 1:13:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F06B514BCF for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:13:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20563; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:14:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:08:41 EST." Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:14:17 -0800 Message-ID: <20561.921834857@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Tough sell, considering 1) Linux's press of late (the heads of software > companies read the trades and WSJ and see Linux all over the place > lately, but no mention of FreeBSD), and 2) Jordan's assertion that vendors > should port to Linux instead of FreeBSD if they've only got resources for > one. Maybe his stance would change if there were a FreeBSD emulator? I think it's kind of strange to envision a world where ISVs were suddenly persuaded to jump on the FreeBSD bandwagon just because Linux could now emulate its binaries. In real life I'd more expect to hear "FreeBSD already emulates Linux binaries, so why wouldn't we just build for the platform with the greatest numbers and let FreeBSD run that? It runs Linux stuff, right? Why would anybody want to do the opposite?" I can't think of any really good counter-arguments for this that any suit worth his pinstripes would believe. My "stance" on this is nothing more than simple pragmatism in action. There's no point in trying to get vendors to do native ports when FreeBSD is so far off their radars that it's a struggle just to get them to not go so hog-wild with their (inevitable) Linux ports that they don't run under emulation. Even getting them to put FreeBSD somewhere in the copy of their linux advertising blurbs (saying it's supported under emulation) is a serious chore, and that one's a total "gimme" as far as potential sales are concerned. How receptive do you think they're going to be to a native port under such circumstances? Not very, I'll tell you, and I do ask this frequently of ISVs, just as a checklist item, and I usually end up checking the "No" box with little hope of an immediate reversal on the decision. "Critical mass" from a market-interest perspective seems to be about 2-3 million users. We're not quite there yet and, by my best estimates, we need to basically just double in size to start registering on these radar screens. At our current rate of growth, we might just make that target sooner than people think. In any case, the PR value of having working native ports is certainly substantial but I still don't understand how some of the previous posters in this thread could consider FreeBSD's Linux emulation a "bad" thing from a PR perspective when you just imagine the outcry that would arise from not being able to use the growing number of Linux apps. Proposing that these ISVs would all just suddenly port their apps to FreeBSD if FreeBSD didn't run the Linux apps at all also truly strains credulity when you consider the other significant mitigating factors, such as a Linux user base some 7X the size of FreeBSD's or the sheer attention it's been receiving in the press (managers make decisions based on what they read or see on TV, ok?). If we didn't have Linux emulation, a lot of RealAudio (5.0), Mathematica and Fortran 90 users, to name but a few of the growing list of examples, would be forced to drop FreeBSD entirely or stick with whichever version last supported Linux emulation. I would also expect them to express rather loud displeasure over this, saying it was time to switch to Linux since we obviously couldn't run their apps anymore and clearly had the Big Head about running Linux binaries for some purile reason or another. It would be very very negative PR indeed. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 3:40:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD543154A0; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 03:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA02127; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:39:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36F22779.89A34025@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:31:21 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aturoff@isinet.com Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft (was: Netscape browser) References: <4.1.19990318155537.03f05850@localhost> <19990319112909.H429@lemis.com> <99Mar18.202531est.113793@pandora.isinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adam Turoff wrote: > > Same context. Except that billg said FreeBSD instead of Linux. He said MS were competing with FreeBSD for years. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "What happened?" "It moved, sir!" PS: And losing... ;-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 5:40:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fbsd.omaha.com (unknown [207.252.120.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2AC15530; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 05:39:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) Received: from localhost (opsys@localhost) by fbsd.omaha.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id HAA01803; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:39:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) X-Authentication-Warning: fbsd.omaha.com: opsys owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:39:11 -0600 (CST) From: "Open Systems Inc." X-Sender: opsys@localhost To: Mark Ovens Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <19990319004132.A276@marder-1.localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Err, why exactly would any self-respecting Unix user want Internet > Exploder? Not to condone IE or MS but netscape renders slower than hell. I can pull up our local news papers URL and it sits for a good few seconds while it renders the page then draws it. IE just loads it right up. I just don't like netscape that much anymore. Its slow, buggy and slow. And between the two choices IE seems more stable, and faster. Granted im sure its full of hacks and whatnot but it's still faster. I cant believe I just endorsed a MS product, Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 6:35: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07B014E04 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:35:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id IAA18901; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:34:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:34:42 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-Reply-To: <20561.921834857@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With all this talk about Linux emulation I thought I'd share an experience that I had earlier this week. The company that I work for uses Netscape's Directory Server product on Solaris for now, but with a nearly idle Quad CPU Linux box and Netscape announcing an alpha-quality version of a Linux port there is serious talk about using it instead. I know the guy who owns the Linux box and have convinced him to give me a partition or two on one of the drives to install FreeBSD and try running this program under emulation. Now to the crux of the problem. Try as I might I can't get Netscape to record anywhere that I'm downloading a copy of the Linux version only to run it on a FreeBSD box. This is very bad! I download the Linux version. It counts towards Linux sales. Somebody in sales mentions it to another company and they release a Linux version of their product because of bloated Linux interest numbers. This happens again and again, and we arrive at where we are today - Linux getting all the press and support because Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 6:57:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1895A14DCA for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22359; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:57:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:57:02 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Price wrote: > > Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies > > I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that > using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster > interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) > unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. This is an excellent opportunity for some advocacy that has a chance of doing something useful. Getting vendors of Linux apps to a) test their products under FreeBSD linux emulation, or at least accept OUR test results; b) advertise their products as being compatible with FreeBSD; and c) record sales number for FreeBSD to guage the user base would be a big plus to the FreeBSD community. This might even eventually lead to commitments to produce FreeBSD native versions, or at least to guarantee (and bug-fix) their code will run under the linuxulator. I've already gotten the vendors of Wingz (spreadsheet) to agree to a and b, and to put whatever logo we can come up with on their Linux download page. They are interested in tracking sales numbers, too, but aren't going to do anything until we get them a logo and etc for steps a and b. So, if you're really interested in running with this, email me back privately and I'll send you over all the archived information. And good luck getting any artwork; I *never* manage to get past that step. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7: 8:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A67C15052 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id KAA10677; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmai09776; Fri, 19 Mar 99 10:07:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:03:15 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-reply-to: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not to get too far into the details, but maybe a 'runs on FreeBSD' logo or something like that so that vendors can help with awareness? SB On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > This is an excellent opportunity for some advocacy that has a chance > of doing something useful. Getting vendors of Linux apps to a) test > their products under FreeBSD linux emulation, or at least accept OUR > test results; b) advertise their products as being compatible with > FreeBSD; and c) record sales number for FreeBSD to guage the user > base would be a big plus to the FreeBSD community. This might even > eventually lead to commitments to produce FreeBSD native versions, or > at least to guarantee (and bug-fix) their code will run under the > linuxulator. > > I've already gotten the vendors of Wingz (spreadsheet) to agree to > a and b, and to put whatever logo we can come up with on their Linux > download page. They are interested in tracking sales numbers, too, > but aren't going to do anything until we get them a logo and etc for > steps a and b. > > So, if you're really interested in running with this, email me back > privately and I'll send you over all the archived information. And > good luck getting any artwork; I *never* manage to get past that > step. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7:20:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gamma.qmw.ac.uk (gamma.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.6.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 64F1014D81 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:20:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk by gamma.qmw.ac.uk with SMTP-QMW with ESMTP; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:19:49 +0000 Received: from brunos-sun [138.37.88.185]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with SMTP; id PAA07755; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:18:26 GMT Received: locally by brunos-sun (SMI-8.6/QMW-client-3.2b); poster "scott"; id PAA09712; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:14:52 GMT Message-ID: <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:14:51 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Wes Peters , Steve Price Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:57:02AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:57:02AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Steve Price wrote: > > > > Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies > > > > I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that > > using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster > > interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) > > unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. > > This is an excellent opportunity for some advocacy that has a chance > of doing something useful. Getting vendors of Linux apps to a) test > their products under FreeBSD linux emulation, or at least accept OUR > test results; b) advertise their products as being compatible with > FreeBSD; and c) record sales number for FreeBSD to guage the user > base would be a big plus to the FreeBSD community. This might even > eventually lead to commitments to produce FreeBSD native versions, or > at least to guarantee (and bug-fix) their code will run under the > linuxulator. > > I've already gotten the vendors of Wingz (spreadsheet) to agree to > a and b, and to put whatever logo we can come up with on their Linux > download page. They are interested in tracking sales numbers, too, > but aren't going to do anything until we get them a logo and etc for > steps a and b. The logo business was discussed to death a few months back on this very list, as part of the 'Works with FreeBSD' branding program.....whatever happened to that? I recall that someone was going to take all the suggestions we all made and do something constructive with them. So, whoever that someone was, are you still out there? Cheers, Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F3515508 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O16s-000ArN-0C; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:22:55 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA01412; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:21:53 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24471; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:21:52 GMT Message-ID: <36F26B75.5951644@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:21:25 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Steve Price wrote: > > Try as I might I can't get Netscape to record anywhere that > I'm downloading a copy of the Linux version only to run it on > a FreeBSD box. This is very bad! I download the Linux version. > It counts towards Linux sales. Somebody in sales mentions it > to another company and they release a Linux version of their > product because of bloated Linux interest numbers. This happens > again and again, and we arrive at where we are today - Linux > getting all the press and support because > There is exactly the same problem when registering Corel WP8 for Linux. I posted a message about this a while ago and someone replied with some e-mail addresses for Corel. I sent an e-mail to them about it but, as you might guess, I got no response. > Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies > > I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that > using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster > interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) > unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. > I suppose it's understandable that they're not interested when you look at it from their point of view. They are only interested in gauging how many people are using the Linux *version* of the product so they can decide whether to continue developing it. Even though we're using the software under FreeBSD, and want them to know it, it's still the Linux version. This is the same kind of situation with OS/2 Warp and Windows (3.x). Win 3.x apps would run (often better) under Warp but how many companies had "runs under OS/2" in their adverts or on the product box? If we're honest what we are looking for is some free advocacy/advertising for FreeBSD but Netscape/Corel aren't out to promote OSs, just sell their product. I doubt that adding "also runs on FreeBSD" is going to do much to enhance their sales as most (all?) FreeBSD users know that they can run Linux programs. Don't get me wrong. I would love to see "FreeBSD" everywhere "Linux" appears on these company's websites, packaging, adverts etc. but I can understand why it doesn't happen. > -steve > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7:33:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EFBE154C6 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA24805; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:32:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319082724.03f70100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:32:45 -0700 To: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990318215447.03f129e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:08 AM 3/19/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >> I'd rather see some folks (and, yes, I'd help, though I'm not qualified >> to do it alone) build FreeBSD emulation for Linux. Then, app vendors could >> make a business case for targeting FreeBSD. >> >> --Brett > >Tough sell, considering 1) Linux's press of late (the heads of software >companies read the trades and WSJ and see Linux all over the place >lately, but no mention of FreeBSD), and 2) Jordan's assertion that vendors >should port to Linux instead of FreeBSD if they've only got resources for >one. Maybe his stance would change if there were a FreeBSD emulator? I think it would. As we have learned both from OS/2 and from current experience with FreeBSD, he who emulates is in a bad position to get native ports. He who is emulated, on the other hand, is in a good one. So, why not introduce FreeBSD emulation for Linux and maintain it? FreeBSD would by no means grab all of Linux's market share, but Jordan could then say, "Develop for FreeBSD and you'll run on Linux too." A much better message. Such an effort would also tap the zeitgeist in Debian and on Slashdot, where people are proposing various combinations of Linux and the BSDs. This could be the single best move that could be made to promote FreeBSD right now. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7:39:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7991914DCA for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O1MW-0006JS-0A; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:39:05 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA01486; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:38:28 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24820; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:38:27 GMT Message-ID: <36F26F59.D481A0CE@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:38:01 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Scott Mitchell wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:57:02AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Steve Price wrote: > > > > > > Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies > > > > > > I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that > > > using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster > > > interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) > > > unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. > > > > This is an excellent opportunity for some advocacy that has a chance > > of doing something useful. Getting vendors of Linux apps to a) test > > their products under FreeBSD linux emulation, or at least accept OUR > > test results; b) advertise their products as being compatible with > > FreeBSD; and c) record sales number for FreeBSD to guage the user > > base would be a big plus to the FreeBSD community. This might even > > eventually lead to commitments to produce FreeBSD native versions, or > > at least to guarantee (and bug-fix) their code will run under the > > linuxulator. > > > > I've already gotten the vendors of Wingz (spreadsheet) to agree to > > a and b, and to put whatever logo we can come up with on their Linux > > download page. They are interested in tracking sales numbers, too, > > but aren't going to do anything until we get them a logo and etc for > > steps a and b. > > The logo business was discussed to death a few months back on this very > list, as part of the 'Works with FreeBSD' branding program.....whatever > happened to that? I recall that someone was going to take all the > suggestions we all made and do something constructive with them. So, > whoever that someone was, are you still out there? > Since Wes has done the hard work and got a vendor to agree to add a mention for FreeBSD (nice one Wes!) we ought to get this topic resurrected and a conclusion reached without delay. > Cheers, > > Scott > > -- > =========================================================================== > Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just > | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" > QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 7:46:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4C41561A for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:46:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA24966; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:45:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:45:11 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Zippy From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20561.921834857@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:14 AM 3/19/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I think it's kind of strange to envision a world where ISVs were >suddenly persuaded to jump on the FreeBSD bandwagon just because Linux >could now emulate its binaries. In real life I'd more expect to hear >"FreeBSD already emulates Linux binaries, so why wouldn't we just >build for the platform with the greatest numbers and let FreeBSD run >that? It runs Linux stuff, right? Why would anybody want to do the >opposite?" This is why Linux emulation has, if anything, hurt FreeBSD's ability to attract native ports. The answer is not to try to bring the mountain to Mohammad (mountains are big and hard to move) but to bring Mohammad to the mountain where he can preach to the masses and win some converts. This is why I believe that FreeBSD emulation for Linux is the correct move. >In any case, the PR value of having working native ports is certainly >substantial Jordan, it's ESSENTIAL. Companies determine the amount they'll invest in a platform by looking at NATIVE app sales for that platform. As has been said elsewhere in this now-bifurcated thread, a sale of a Linux binary for a FreeBSD box counts as a Linux install. Having been heavily involved with OS/2 Warp, I can state this unequivocally: emulating a more popular platform forecloses opportunities to get native apps. FreeBSD, though, has a golden opportunity that OS/2 didn't have. You couldn't get Windows to emulate OS/2 (it simply didn't have the architecture), but you CAN get Linux to emulate FreeBSD. Making FreeBSD a "universal API" would also be very palatable to companies like Sun and SCO, which are now grudgingly working on supporting Linux as a binary format and don't really want to. They'd jump at a chance to use an API that ISN'T part of a movement whose stated purpose is to wipe them out. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8: 1:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F11E14D4A for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:01:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id LAA14029; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma013056; Fri, 19 Mar 99 10:59:30 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:59:23 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: <4.1.19990319082724.03f70100@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > I think it would. As we have learned both from OS/2 and from current > experience with FreeBSD, he who emulates is in a bad position to > get native ports. He who is emulated, on the other hand, is in a > good one. So, why not introduce FreeBSD emulation for Linux and > maintain it? FreeBSD would by no means grab all of Linux's market share, > but Jordan could then say, "Develop for FreeBSD and you'll run on Linux > too." A much better message. Such an effort would also tap the zeitgeist > in Debian and on Slashdot, where people are proposing various combinations > of Linux and the BSDs. > Doubt this would work. The reason the present system works (Linux emulation under FreeBSD) is because it's in FreeBSD's interest to support the linux emulation. The reverse isn't true, unfortunately. Telling a vendor to make a native port to FreeBSD because the FreeBSD folks are maintaining an emulation package for Linux won't fly. The company would be putting its trust in the FreeBSD community to maintain that package. If the maintainers decided to drop the package, the company would lose its linux market base. Why would they do that when they can port directly to linux and tap the market directly? I don't think there's much we can do to convince vendors to provide native ports unless we start growing our userbase -- which we're doing. (However, the latest graphs show FreeBSD usage slipping a bit relative to other OS's.) Unfortunately, hype works in the real world. We need some of it. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8: 6:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C7F115024 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:06:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O1mH-00031X-0A; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:05:41 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA01584; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:04:51 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25395; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:04:51 GMT Message-ID: <36F27588.1A591EBF@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:04:24 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Open Systems Inc." Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Open Systems Inc." wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Err, why exactly would any self-respecting Unix user want Internet > > Exploder? > > Not to condone IE or MS but netscape renders slower than hell. > I can pull up our local news papers URL and it sits for a good few seconds > while it renders the page then draws it. IE just loads it right up. > I just don't like netscape that much anymore. Its slow, buggy and slow. > And between the two choices IE seems more stable, and faster. > Granted im sure its full of hacks and whatnot but it's still faster. > I'd agree that Netscape has become a real dog in the performance dept., and I'm looking for another browser that has the "features" of Netscape but is not such a slug, but I would draw the line at using IE. What is going to be next? MS Office for Linux?. The danger with M$ porting apps to Linux is having M$ "standards" imposed (Unix users using Word docs as a standard file format :-( ). FreeBSD should reject the use of IE, let the Linux camp become infected with the M$ virus (I wonder what RMS, ESR et al think of it?). > I cant believe I just endorsed a MS product, You should be asheamed. Go and wash your mouth out with soap ;-) > Chris -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:12:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7038C15706 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA25269; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:11:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319090556.00b604d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:10:02 -0700 To: Zippy From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990319082724.03f70100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:59 AM 3/19/99 -0500, Zippy wrote: >Doubt this would work. The reason the present system works (Linux >emulation under FreeBSD) is because it's in FreeBSD's interest to support >the linux emulation. The reverse isn't true, unfortunately. Doesn't matter. WE'd do it, just as AT&T created Plan 9 emulation for UNIX. >Telling a >vendor to make a native port to FreeBSD because the FreeBSD folks are >maintaining an emulation package for Linux won't fly. The company would >be putting its trust in the FreeBSD community to maintain that package. >If the maintainers decided to drop the package, the company would lose its >linux market base. Wouldn't happen. It's open source, remember? They have the source; they can maintain the emulation. That's the BEST possible insurance. >Why would they do that when they can port directly to >linux and tap the market directly? Because FreeBSD, by some estimates, has 2/3 the installed base of Linux. If you could increase the potential market for the same SKU by 66%, why not do it? >Unfortunately, hype works in the real world. We need some of it. We need hype, too. But this would be an opportunity to learn from the history of OS/2 and not repeat its (perhaps fatal) mistake. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:14:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718081586D for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04350; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:13:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:13:26 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Open Systems Inc." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <36F27588.1A591EBF@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > "Open Systems Inc." wrote: > > > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Not to condone IE or MS but netscape renders slower than hell. > I'd agree that Netscape has become a real dog in the performance > dept., Are you guys using Navigator or Communicator? I refuse to use Communicator (bloatware) and only use Navigator. All of my machines are M$ free so the only other browser I use is lynx so I can't really compare Navigator to anything else (fairly - I mean lynx doesn't have graphics)! :-) Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:31:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA0E14F80 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10O2B8-0006lO-0B; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:31:23 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA01685; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:29:46 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25766; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:29:45 GMT Message-ID: <36F27B5F.38CE18FD@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:29:19 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Taylor Cc: "Open Systems Inc." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Taylor wrote: > > Hi, > > > "Open Systems Inc." wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Not to condone IE or MS but netscape renders slower than hell. > > > I'd agree that Netscape has become a real dog in the performance > > dept., > > Are you guys using Navigator or Communicator? I refuse to use > Communicator (bloatware) and only use Navigator. All of my machines are > M$ free so the only other browser I use is lynx so I can't really compare > Navigator to anything else (fairly - I mean lynx doesn't have graphics)! > :-) > I use Communicator as I used to use it for mail as well, but I now use mutt for mail. Is standalone Navigator faster that Navigator in Communicator? I suppose it should be since Communicator is one binary for all the products. > Brett > *********************************************************** > Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * > brett@daemonnews.org * > * > http://www.daemonnews.org/ * > *********************************************************** -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:35:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jbaugher.campus.vt.edu (jbaugher.campus.vt.edu [198.82.58.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C467C14BCF for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbaugher@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu) Received: by jbaugher.campus.vt.edu via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:20 -0500 From: Josh Baugher To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Taylor , "Open Systems Inc." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser Message-ID: <19990319113520.A27698@jbaugher.campus.vt.edu,> References: <36F27B5F.38CE18FD@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <36F27B5F.38CE18FD@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 04:29:19PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Mark Ovens : > I use Communicator as I used to use it for mail as well, but I now > use mutt for mail. Is standalone Navigator faster that Navigator > in Communicator? I suppose it should be since Communicator is one > binary for all the products. Is there anyway to make mutt the mail client used when you click on a "mailto:" link on a webpage? Josh -- Josh Baugher http://www.acm.vt.edu/~jbaugher/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:49:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A069314FA1 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:49:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA55781; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:47:44 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Wes Peters , Steve Price , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) Message-ID: <19990319084744.A55685@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>; from Scott Mitchell on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 03:14:51PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 03:14:51PM +0000, Scott Mitchell wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 07:57:02AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Steve Price wrote: > > > > > > Linux sales = real Linux sales + sales for emulated copies > > > > > > I don't know the solution to this problem. I do know that > > > using a Linux product under emulation doesn't do much to bolster > > > interest (at least not from the company putting out the product) > > > unless we get the numbers to count in our favor. > > > > This is an excellent opportunity for some advocacy that has a chance > > of doing something useful. Getting vendors of Linux apps to a) test > > their products under FreeBSD linux emulation, or at least accept OUR > > test results; b) advertise their products as being compatible with > > FreeBSD; and c) record sales number for FreeBSD to guage the user > > base would be a big plus to the FreeBSD community. This might even > > eventually lead to commitments to produce FreeBSD native versions, or > > at least to guarantee (and bug-fix) their code will run under the > > linuxulator. > > > > I've already gotten the vendors of Wingz (spreadsheet) to agree to > > a and b, and to put whatever logo we can come up with on their Linux > > download page. They are interested in tracking sales numbers, too, > > but aren't going to do anything until we get them a logo and etc for > > steps a and b. > > The logo business was discussed to death a few months back on this very > list, as part of the 'Works with FreeBSD' branding program.....whatever > happened to that? I recall that someone was going to take all the > suggestions we all made and do something constructive with them. So, > whoever that someone was, are you still out there? He is an opportunity that we should not let slip by us. We should use some of our very scarce money to pay a grapic artist to come up with a "Works with FreeBSD" logo. It seems that we have even fewer graphic artists than writers in our camp. Now that I think about it, we have a standing offer to put a FreeBSD logo up at link exchange. Getting vendors to put our logo on their web page means we will get more mind share with the suits. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 8:55:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999381505D for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:54:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA16148; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:53:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:53:53 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: # Jordan, it's ESSENTIAL. Companies determine the amount they'll invest # in a platform by looking at NATIVE app sales for that platform. As # has been said elsewhere in this now-bifurcated thread, a sale of a # Linux binary for a FreeBSD box counts as a Linux install. Having # been heavily involved with OS/2 Warp, I can state this unequivocally: # emulating a more popular platform forecloses opportunities to get # native apps. And to use the same argument that I get from the Linux folks here when I say they can run Linux binaries under emulation on FreeBSD, "Why would I want to run an emulated binary if I can run it on the real thing?". [1] Let's face it the market for Linux is there and at least in the minds of many the market for FreeBSD is not. Why would a company write a native FreeBSD binary (for a market that doesn't exist) so the market that does exist can run it under emulation? [2] Your FreeBSDulator for Linux idea will only work if we convince them there is a market for FreeBSD and that more people will want to use FreeBSD than Linux. This is the reason that despite all its warts the Linuxulator is probably our best best right now. They develop a product for what they believe to be a safe bet and get an additional smaller market via emulation for free. What we should be focusing our effort on is getting them to realize that the market for FreeBSD *is* there. We do that by making them take note that when we use the Linux version of their product we do so via Linux emulation under FreeBSD. When we have enough people using their product under FreeBSD, then we turn the tables, unveil your FreeBSDulator, and announce that since their biggest market is FreeBSD they should have a native FreeBSD version. The big plus it that with your FreeBSDulator they get to keep the Linux market too and make their biggest market happy by having native apps. # FreeBSD, though, has a golden opportunity that OS/2 didn't have. You # couldn't get Windows to emulate OS/2 (it simply didn't have the # architecture), but you CAN get Linux to emulate FreeBSD. # # Making FreeBSD a "universal API" would also be very palatable to # companies like Sun and SCO, which are now grudgingly working on # supporting Linux as a binary format and don't really want to. They'd # jump at a chance to use an API that ISN'T part of a movement whose # stated purpose is to wipe them out. # # --Brett [1] This is a rhetorical question so please don't respond to me or the list with a long list of the reasons why. I think we all know a few reasons why, but they are really not salient to the issue at hand. [2] Another rhetorical question. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9: 2:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D604914EE6 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04588; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:47 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Open Systems Inc." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <36F27B5F.38CE18FD@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > I use Communicator as I used to use it for mail as well, but I now use > mutt for mail. Is standalone Navigator faster that Navigator in > Communicator? I suppose it should be since Communicator is one binary > for all the products. I've noticed it's certainly faster on start-up and it's certainly much less of a memory hog! Give it a try (there's even a 4.5 version which works pretty well - it's what I use - still hangs on a few Java pages, but what Netscape doesn't? :-) ). Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9:21:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADE5114F47 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 45319 invoked by uid 1001); 19 Mar 1999 17:21:09 -0000 Date: 19 Mar 1999 09:21:09 -0800 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:21:09 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) Message-ID: <19990319092109.A45269@dub.net> References: <36F265BE.36C1F4ED@softweyr.com> <19990319151451.E23921@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <19990319084744.A55685@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990319084744.A55685@ontario.mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:47:44AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 08:47:44AM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 03:14:51PM +0000, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > The logo business was discussed to death a few months back on this very > > list, as part of the 'Works with FreeBSD' branding program.....whatever > > happened to that? I recall that someone was going to take all the > > suggestions we all made and do something constructive with them. So, > > whoever that someone was, are you still out there? > > He is an opportunity that we should not let slip by us. We should use some > of our very scarce money to pay a grapic artist to come up with a "Works > with FreeBSD" logo. It seems that we have even fewer graphic artists than > writers in our camp. Now that I think about it, we have a standing offer to > put a FreeBSD logo up at link exchange. Getting vendors to put our logo on > their web page means we will get more mind share with the suits. I also think this is a great idea. I don't know that we necesarily need to hire a graphic artist to get the job done. The logo doesnt need to be that complicated. Check out: http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/bsd/fhp_mini.jpg I think something along these lines would be ideal. It's none intrusive and simple. (Yes, I am volunteering to do this) :) -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9:36:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D38414D81 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:36:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA04269; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:48 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319090556.00b604d0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: # >Telling a # >vendor to make a native port to FreeBSD because the FreeBSD folks are # >maintaining an emulation package for Linux won't fly. The company would # >be putting its trust in the FreeBSD community to maintain that package. # >If the maintainers decided to drop the package, the company would lose its # >linux market base. # # Wouldn't happen. It's open source, remember? They have the source; they # can maintain the emulation. That's the BEST possible insurance. But you probably wouldn't release it under the GPL and if it isn't GPL'd many in the Linux community won't use it. Are you suggesting the company support FreeBSD emulation or that the Linux community to support it? If the former, then why would the company do that when we already support FreeBSD emulation for them and having their product run on FreeBSD comes at our expense not their's? If the latter, then why would anyone in the Linux community want to support emulation when they already have native support? Your FreeBSDulator idea will be great thing to have but only after we have turned the tables and FreeBSD has a bigger userbase than Linux. When this happens the Linux community can write the emulator themselves so that they can keep their beloved OS. # >Why would they do that when they can port directly to # >linux and tap the market directly? # # Because FreeBSD, by some estimates, has 2/3 the installed base of Linux. # If you could increase the potential market for the same SKU by 66%, # why not do it? # # >Unfortunately, hype works in the real world. We need some of it. # # We need hype, too. But this would be an opportunity to learn from the # history of OS/2 and not repeat its (perhaps fatal) mistake. # # --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907CB1553F for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA26314; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:47:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:47:19 -0700 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:53 AM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: >And to use the same argument that I get from the Linux folks here >when I say they can run Linux binaries under emulation on FreeBSD, >"Why would I want to run an emulated binary if I can run it on the >real thing?". [1] Let's face it the market for Linux is there and >at least in the minds of many the market for FreeBSD is not. Why >would a company write a native FreeBSD binary (for a market that >doesn't exist) so the market that does exist can run it under >emulation? [2] Again, to increase the size of the market. Another big incentive: they can include tested, BSD-licensed code in their commercial applications without giving away the farm due to the GPL. >Your FreeBSDulator for Linux idea will only work if we convince >them there is a market for FreeBSD and that more people will want >to use FreeBSD than Linux. I disagree. If that were true, the emulator wouldn't be needed at all. >This is the reason that despite all >its warts the Linuxulator is probably our best best right now. >They develop a product for what they believe to be a safe bet and >get an additional smaller market via emulation for free. You don't seem to get it. Emulation of a more popular platform is not a positive; it's a negative! Sales into the FreeBSD installed base are seen as sales into the Linux installed base, and native ports never exist. This is what killed OS/2 Warp. We must learn from history: he who emulates is in a weaker position, not a stronger one. >What we should be focusing our effort on is getting them to realize >that the market for FreeBSD *is* there. We can do that as well. But they won't unless they see native FreeBSD versions of software selling. (Remember, marketroids are completely blind to anything other than sales figures.) >We do that by making them >take note that when we use the Linux version of their product we do >so via Linux emulation under FreeBSD. When we have enough people >using their product under FreeBSD, then we turn the tables, unveil >your FreeBSDulator, and announce that since their biggest market is >FreeBSD they should have a native FreeBSD version. You can't suddenly "turn the tables" like that. Instead, you must make gradual, persistent inroads based on your strengths. One strength that Linux will NEVER have is commercially reusable BSD-licensed code. If we make it usable for Linux via a FreeBSD emulation library that runs on Linux, we can start winning binary ports. And that's key. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9:49:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5493D14C30 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA26334; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:49:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319104812.00a869c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:48:44 -0700 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990319090556.00b604d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:35 AM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: >Are you suggesting the company support FreeBSD emulation >or that the Linux community to support it? I suggest that we and Debian support it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 9:59:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A151E14CB6 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:59:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA15725; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:59:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:59:22 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Zippy wrote: # # Not to get too far into the details, but maybe a 'runs on FreeBSD' logo or # something like that so that vendors can help with awareness? Actualy I was thinking more along the lines of making them (the vendors) aware that some of their sales/downloads were being used on FreeBSD. Something like giving the person installing a port an opportunity to send a message to the vendor saying that they were trying the Linux version under FreeBSD's emulation. Or maybe even a web page that allowed the user to register the fact they are using (or intend to) a Linux binary under emulation and then forward this info to the vendor at regular intervals. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 10:35:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494E1153A9 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:35:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA26798; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319113326.00997d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:35:15 -0700 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:59 AM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: >Actualy I was thinking more along the lines of making them >(the vendors) aware that some of their sales/downloads were >being used on FreeBSD. Good luck! Marketing people are not the brightest of folk. All they'll see is, "We sold XX copies of the Linux version; I guess Linux is popular. No reason to support those losers running FreeBSD." This is what happened with OS/2, and nothing that was done either by IBM or by user advocates could stop it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 10:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50BE514F79 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:42:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA05043; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:41:05 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:41:05 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: # At 10:53 AM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: # # >Why # >would a company write a native FreeBSD binary (for a market that # >doesn't exist) so the market that does exist can run it under # >emulation? [2] # # Again, to increase the size of the market. Another big incentive: # they can include tested, BSD-licensed code in their commercial # applications without giving away the farm due to the GPL. That's exactly my (counter)point. They don't believe the market exists, so writing it doesn't gain them anything in their minds. # >Your FreeBSDulator for Linux idea will only work if we convince # >them there is a market for FreeBSD and that more people will want # >to use FreeBSD than Linux. # # I disagree. If that were true, the emulator wouldn't be needed # at all. I will be needed so that the Linux advocates can run FreeBSD binaries. # >This is the reason that despite all # >its warts the Linuxulator is probably our best best right now. # >They develop a product for what they believe to be a safe bet and # >get an additional smaller market via emulation for free. # # You don't seem to get it. Emulation of a more popular platform # is not a positive; it's a negative! Sales into the FreeBSD # installed base are seen as sales into the Linux installed # base, and native ports never exist. This is what killed OS/2 # Warp. We must learn from history: he who emulates is in a # weaker position, not a stronger one. I do get it and I'm not advocating emulation. I'm advocating that we pound on their door and let them know that there is a market in FreeBSD. We do that by making them aware that we are using their Linux products in FreeBSD. If we don't and we continue to use their Linux offerings we only add to the numbers that say that Linux is popular. Yes there is a catch-22 here in that us supporting Linux emulation can be a hindrance but we have to find some way to convince them that FreeBSD does have market share while at the same time convincing people to use FreeBSD in the first place. # >What we should be focusing our effort on is getting them to realize # >that the market for FreeBSD *is* there. # # We can do that as well. But they won't unless they see native # FreeBSD versions of software selling. (Remember, marketroids are # completely blind to anything other than sales figures.) Which is why I have offered my services to several companies to do a port for them. They almost always come back with NDAs (which I have no problem with) and prices in the 5-digit range to buy in. # You can't suddenly "turn the tables" like that. Instead, you must # make gradual, persistent inroads based on your strengths. One # strength that Linux will NEVER have is commercially reusable # BSD-licensed code. If we make it usable for Linux via a FreeBSD # emulation library that runs on Linux, we can start winning binary # ports. And that's key. Yes, the tables must slowly turn themselves. # --Brett # # # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 10:46:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E211518B for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:46:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA22274; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:45:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:45:42 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: Brett Glass Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319104812.00a869c0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: # At 11:35 AM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: # # >Are you suggesting the company support FreeBSD emulation # >or that the Linux community to support it? # # I suggest that we and Debian support it. Ok. So write it already. :) Thouhg my abilities are probably not up to the task of writing it with you, I can certainly help test whatever you come up with. # --Brett # # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11: 2: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A505D15444 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:02:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA27071; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:58:47 -0700 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:41 PM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: ># Again, to increase the size of the market. Another big incentive: ># they can include tested, BSD-licensed code in their commercial ># applications without giving away the farm due to the GPL. > >That's exactly my (counter)point. They don't believe the >market exists, so writing it doesn't gain them anything in >their minds. If it is pointed out that FreeBSd has an installed base that is, by some measures, 66% that of Linux, they'll be interested if they otherwise have nothing to lose. And they have a LOT to gain if they can use BSD-licensed code verbatim in their apps. This is a tremendous selling point that has not been properly promoted. We need to say: "Want your app to do FTP? Fine -- here's the code from FreeBSD's FTP client, and it's ready to go so long as your binary is compiled for FreeBSD. If you want to compile for Linux, uh, well, there are a few changes you'll need to make -- plus more testing. So it's better to target FreeBSD. Your app will still run on Linux perfectly well via the emulator." ># >Your FreeBSDulator for Linux idea will only work if we convince ># >them there is a market for FreeBSD and that more people will want ># >to use FreeBSD than Linux. ># ># I disagree. If that were true, the emulator wouldn't be needed ># at all. > >I will be needed so that the Linux advocates can run FreeBSD >binaries. Yes, but at that point it would be a secondary concern. ># You don't seem to get it. Emulation of a more popular platform ># is not a positive; it's a negative! Sales into the FreeBSD ># installed base are seen as sales into the Linux installed ># base, and native ports never exist. This is what killed OS/2 ># Warp. We must learn from history: he who emulates is in a ># weaker position, not a stronger one. > >I do get it and I'm not advocating emulation. I'm advocating >that we pound on their door and let them know that there is a >market in FreeBSD. I agree that this is a good idea. Let's do that too! But let's also get FreeBSD emulation into Linux. If we don't, we're missing a huge opportunity. >Yes there is a catch-22 here >in that us supporting Linux emulation can be a hindrance but >we have to find some way to convince them that FreeBSD does >have market share while at the same time convincing people to >use FreeBSD in the first place. We need to do more than that. We need to provide them with a practical strategy for application development that allows them to compile and ship native code for FreeBSD with the assurance that they'll be able to get good sales volumes. The FreeBSD emulator for Linux is the selling point that will close the sale. ># We can do that as well. But they won't unless they see native ># FreeBSD versions of software selling. (Remember, marketroids are ># completely blind to anything other than sales figures.) > >Which is why I have offered my services to several companies >to do a port for them. They almost always come back with >NDAs (which I have no problem with) and prices in the 5-digit >range to buy in. That's why it's so important to get the company to develop its INITIAL version for FreeBSD, not Linux. After that, doing a port may seem too expensive to them, especially if Linux emulation is available on FreeBSD. Only if FreeBSD emulation is available on Linux can we capture that first port. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11: 2: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B46E15487 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:02:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA27075; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319115901.03f189b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:00:43 -0700 To: Steve Price From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990319104812.00a869c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:45 PM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: >Ok. So write it already. :) Thouhg my abilities are probably >not up to the task of writing it with you, I can certainly help >test whatever you come up with. The best people to work on it (and, yes, I *am* volunteering to help) are the folks who have worked on the Linux emulator. They're used to tracking the differences between the APIs, so we should have one of those people as the technical lead. I'd be glad to serve as a coder and also as an organizer. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11: 7:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849911514D for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:06:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA11396; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA13874; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:05:55 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA02851; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <36F2A00B.6715411@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:05:47 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 01:14 AM 3/19/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >In any case, the PR value of having working native ports is certainly > >substantial > > Jordan, it's ESSENTIAL. Companies determine the amount they'll invest > in a platform by looking at NATIVE app sales for that platform. Bzzzt! Wrong again! Software development companies -- remember I've worked for several and even RAN one for a year -- care about how many sales they can get for development dollars. It's called ROI - Return On Investment. Trust me on this, they don't give a tinkers damn about what they're spending their money on, just on the ration of how much in to how much out. As a for instance, this was a critical choice when Axent decided to release Security Toolkit on SVR4/x86. We searched long and hard to identify a least common denominator version of SVR4/x86 so we could develop ONE VERSION that would run on all x86 ABI compliant systems, and maintained the other systems for testing only. It ended up running on NCR, Dell (yes, Dell had their very own SVR4 product in those days), Intel's in-house version, and UHC SVR4 (which was probably very close to the Dell version). I don't remember if they ever got it to work on Solaris x86, but it probably did. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:15:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAA715018 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA11520; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA14170; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:14:49 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA03375; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:14:41 -0700 Message-ID: <36F2A21B.109F2ADC@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:14:35 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zippy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Zippy wrote: > > Not to get too far into the details, but maybe a 'runs on FreeBSD' logo or > something like that so that vendors can help with awareness? We went through a long discussion of this last December, go search the advocacy archives for phrases like "runs on" or "works with". It died due to lack of time and the ongoing continual inability to get anyone with artistic talent interested in helping out with logos. Of course, that was before Sussanah Coleman popped up on the FreeBSD volunteers list; it might be a lot easier to get some artwork now. We had discussed three different logos, one for native apps, one for supported hardware, and one for emulation apps from the world of Linux, SCO, etc. Jason Wells was very interested in this as well, you may want to contact him. You'll find him back there in the archives, too. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:29:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9E314DB0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:29:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA27317; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:29:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319121637.03faccf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:19:31 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <36F2A00B.6715411@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:05 PM 3/19/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> Jordan, it's ESSENTIAL. Companies determine the amount they'll invest >> in a platform by looking at NATIVE app sales for that platform. > >Bzzzt! Wrong again! Software development companies -- remember I've >worked for several and even RAN one for a year -- care about how many >sales they can get for development dollars. It's called ROI - Return >On Investment. Which they estimate by looking at installed bases and sales of binaries compiled for specific platforms. The maximum ROI would come if the developer could use BSD-licensed code verbatim in his or her app and target both FreeBSD and Linux via the emulator. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:44: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391E71517C for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:44:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA11831; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA15096; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:43:11 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA05067; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:43:10 -0700 Message-ID: <36F2A8C8.FC32C967@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:43:04 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> <4.1.19990319121637.03faccf0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:05 PM 3/19/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > >> Jordan, it's ESSENTIAL. Companies determine the amount they'll invest > >> in a platform by looking at NATIVE app sales for that platform. > > > >Bzzzt! Wrong again! Software development companies -- remember I've > >worked for several and even RAN one for a year -- care about how many > >sales they can get for development dollars. It's called ROI - Return > >On Investment. > > Which they estimate by looking at installed bases and sales of binaries > compiled for specific platforms. > > The maximum ROI would come if the developer could use BSD-licensed code > verbatim in his or her app and target both FreeBSD and Linux via the > emulator. Use BSD-licensed code in his or her app? We're talking about applications here, not operating system kernels! How many APPLICATIONS do you know of that incorporate part of the operating system into them? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:48:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1577150BA for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA245970761; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:12:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:12:41 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990318215447.03f129e0@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > I'd rather see some folks (and, yes, I'd help, though I'm not qualified > to do it alone) build FreeBSD emulation for Linux. Then, app vendors could > make a business case for targeting FreeBSD. I fail to see how this would help FreeBSD at all. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:49:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7D415186 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:49:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA27501; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:49:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319124703.03fc0ac0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:49:22 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <36F2A8C8.FC32C967@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> <4.1.19990319121637.03faccf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:43 PM 3/19/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> The maximum ROI would come if the developer could use BSD-licensed code >> verbatim in his or her app and target both FreeBSD and Linux via the >> emulator. > >Use BSD-licensed code in his or her app? We're talking about applications >here, not operating system kernels! How many APPLICATIONS do you know of >that incorporate part of the operating system into them? Let's see.... In the past few years, I've done about 10 apps with code from parts of the FreeBSD userland. I've also pulled chunks from the kernel. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 11:56:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7914114FDF for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:56:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id OAA11875; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmaa10614; Fri, 19 Mar 99 14:54:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:54:09 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: <4.1.19990319115901.03f189b0@localhost> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just a request, please: I'm already subscribed to advocacy, so please eliminate my address when replying. I currently get two copies of everything. Thanks. SB On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:45 PM 3/19/99 -0600, Steve Price wrote: > > >Ok. So write it already. :) Thouhg my abilities are probably > >not up to the task of writing it with you, I can certainly help > >test whatever you come up with. > > The best people to work on it (and, yes, I *am* volunteering to > help) are the folks who have worked on the Linux emulator. They're > used to tracking the differences between the APIs, so we should have > one of those people as the technical lead. I'd be glad to serve > as a coder and also as an organizer. > > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 12: 1:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0848914FF8 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wsanchez@scv4.apple.com) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com ([17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA37566 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:37:36 -0800 Received: from scv4.apple.com (scv4.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (mailgate2.apple.com- SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:37:35 -0800 Received: from joliet-jake (joliet-jake.apple.com [17.202.40.140]) by scv4.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA33678 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:36:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Apple's open source... Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:37:31 -0800 From: Wilfredo Sanchez Reply-To: wsanchez@apple.com X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I noticed that there was a conversation on Darwin here, and I thought it would be worth replying to some of it. Note I'm not in this list; I was just browsing the archive. I hope this is helpful. Jeremy Lea : | I'm not one for Brett style advocacy, but this takes the cake. They | used BSD and CMU licensed software to develop most of the OS, and then | release it with a big announcement of 'open source' under a more | restrictive license... Actually large parts of what we are redistributing are done so under the original license. I put the Apple License on anything that might have code in it which is significantly ours, whether that is in fact the case or not, because that was to best way for me to get more code out early. I hope to clean that up some later, when I get more time to go through things carefully. You'll notice, perhaps, that text_cmds, for example, it all NetBSD code with minor bug fixes I've done over the past year and a half, and we not only didn't put the Apple license on that code, but I've committed those changes into NetBSD's tree. We have no intention of duplicating effort and forking projects from wherever we're getting them if we can help it. You'll probably also not that the kernel does have the Apple license on it, and while much of the code is BSD and CMU code, I feel this is fairly well justfified, because we've added a whole lot into that project (HFS+ support, AppleTalk, lots of other work). That's not to say that we aren't willing to send all of our NFS code to the BSD groups without Apple license restrictions, but it does mean that for now, we need to start restrictive, and then think about relaxing things. It's not possible to go the other way. Brett Glass : | Worse still, the press is mentioning Linux in articles about the | announcement, and crediting it for the move, even though NOT A | SINGLE SHRED of the software that's being released is under the | GPL or part of Linux. It's all BSD-derived, or under the MIT X | or Apache licenses. Um, last I checked emacs, grep, groff, gawk, gnutar, and others were under the GPL. We don't have anything under the MIT X license to my knowledge. Please do your research before making such an assertion. I don't think we're hiding the fact that BSD provided much of our code. 4.4BSD is an advertised component of Mac OS X Server. In any case, the code speaks for itself. Garance A Drosihn : | Even if we don't get *attention*, won't this mean that developers might | be "more inclined" to have their code compile under the *BSD's? Isn't | that a good thing? FreeBSD is our primary reference compatibility platform. When we are wondering how X should behave, I log into freebsd.apple.com (in my office) and find out. We also check Solaris and Linux, because it helps to play nice with them, too. | We do need to improve the visibility of the *BSD connection, We are trying, by the way, with the advertising clause. The installation manual for Mac OS X Server (both printed and on-disk) includes a big list of acknolwegdements for the BSD stuff as well as every other copyright I could find (just to be fair, even though it's not required). Keep in mind that it's not a trivial thing to paste that much spew into every document we produce. | As to the licensing issues, I was assuming the "more restrictive | license" referred to *Apple* source code that is being released. | Ie, the source for Appletalk support, or HFS support, etc. They | are releasing more source code than just the pieces from *BSD's, | after all. Seems to me that this "more restrictive" license is | an improvement over no source at all for those things -- which is | the only license we used to have for them. In all fairness, we did start more restrictive than the ideal, and as I said, I'll look into correcting that over time. "Jordan K. Hubbard" : | If Apple actually contributes code back, I won't actually care so | much what their PR dept. does or does not acknowledge. It would be | *very nice* to get public acknowledgement, don't get me wrong, but | there are all kinds of "technology partners" out there and the ones | who contribute technical assistance (bug fixes, reports, etc) are | just as valuable in their own way. We'd love to get a better-established relationship with FreeBSD, as I mentioned before. We really like FreeBSD. We have a nice arrangement with NetBSD and a really excellent one with the Apache Group. I think we may want to be more plublic about these things; it may be good for all involved. I'll see what I can do about that. In fact, I'm still looking to use FreeBSD libraries in the future, and I've even started some of the porting work, though I keep getting distracted. :-) -Fred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 12:18: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from osprey.grizzly.com (osprey.grizzly.com [209.133.20.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DBA14EF2 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:18:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from markd@Grizzly.COM) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA19634; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:17:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:17:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903192017.MAA19634@osprey.grizzly.com> X-Authentication-Warning: osprey.grizzly.com: markd set sender to markd@grizzly.com using -f From: Mark Diekhans To: brett@lariat.org Cc: sprice@hiwaay.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:58:47 -0700) Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: Brett Glass ... >If it is pointed out that FreeBSd has an installed base that is, >by some measures, 66% that of Linux, they'll be interested if they >otherwise have nothing to lose. What is the source for this number? I have never seen anything that indicated that it is anywhere near this high. >And they have a LOT to gain if they can use BSD-licensed code >verbatim in their apps. Which has little to do with a native freebsd port. The cost of the small amount of work required to port most chunks of code that an application might want to use to Linux is tiny compared to the manufacturing, marketing and support costs of another platform. >a few changes you'll need to make -- plus more testing. So >it's better to target FreeBSD. Your app will still run on Linux >perfectly well via the emulator." No, it will not. The user most likely doesn't have the emulator, some action will have to be take to get it installed and running on their system. Since it is almost certainly more than a LKM (libraries, etc), this is not an easy thing to manage. Why would a Linux vendor include a FreeBSD emulator unless the demand generated by the apps only being available for FreeBSD was there? >I agree that this is a good idea. Let's do that too! But let's >also get FreeBSD emulation into Linux. If we don't, we're >missing a huge opportunity. It seems to be a opportunity to spend precious resources pursing a real long shot when there are many things that have a higher probability in producing good results. >We need to do more than that. We need to provide them with >a practical strategy for application development that allows >them to compile and ship native code for FreeBSD with the >assurance that they'll be able to get good sales volumes. >The FreeBSD emulator for Linux is the selling point that will >close the sale. A practical strategy for application development would be just that: a development environment that lets a single source generate native binaries for both Linux and *BSD. Not that I am proposing this, as it will still need market pressure to get it adopted and incure costs for support and manufacturing. >Only if FreeBSD emulation >is available on Linux can we capture that first port. How do we make it available on Linux? Requiring the application vendor to include it on their CD-ROM adds a large support cost. They would need strong market pressure to do this. In my personal experience, Linux emulation has been one of the best faetures in terms of promoting FreeBSD to individual users. If one could just compile and use Linux drivers, it would have helped in couple of situations (no proposal here). It has been a huge benefit to getting my own work done, and in the long run, that's what most end-users really care about. Ultimately, if FreeBSD doesn't help me get my work done better than other environments, I am going to drop it. Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 12:28:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFF514CF2 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:28:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA52177; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:28:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:45:11 MST." <4.1.19990319083523.03f7c470@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:28:19 -0800 Message-ID: <52175.921875299@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is why I believe that FreeBSD emulation for Linux is the correct > move. I still think that this exhibits a rather staggering degree of naivete' about how business actually works, however. I wasn't aware that we were putting together a wish list of items that we could have if peace and love reigned over the earth and man loved his fellow man (outside of SF), I thought that we were here to discuss real-life issues. In real-life, just having FreeBSD emulation for Linux by no means gets people to suddenly rush to produce FreeBSD binaries because, as I said before, the incentive just isn't there and it isn't there because of NUMBERS, nothing that you or I can change overnight. It's also a point which is undoubtedly moot since I don't see anyone capable of doing the actual work to implement such a thing emerging from the woodwork anywhere. Various people in the Linux world have looked at this problem at various times, if for no reason other than to shut us up about the emulation issue, and they've all concluded that It Would Be Hard - too hard to contemplate for such a nebulous gain. If you've got one hiding in your back pocket and think you can convince the Linux vendors to adopt it (without such buy-in, the discussion is again moot) then by all means go for it, but I rather suspect that I'll see NFS and PCCARD support fixed before I ever see FreeBSD emulation in Linux (and those first two projects have been going on for *years* without success so far :). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 12:32: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D163F14D02 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:32:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA52191; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:10:02 MST." <4.1.19990319090556.00b604d0@localhost> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:31:26 -0800 Message-ID: <52189.921875486@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Doubt this would work. The reason the present system works (Linux > >emulation under FreeBSD) is because it's in FreeBSD's interest to support > >the linux emulation. The reverse isn't true, unfortunately. > > Doesn't matter. WE'd do it, just as AT&T created Plan 9 emulation for > UNIX. An emulation that the typical Linux user had to download and incorporate into their kernel in order to get it to work would, by no means, make the average software vendor jump up and down about how FreeBSD was now a universal API (as Brett desires). That's too much to expect of the typical Linux user. That means you couldn't just take the "doesn't matter" attitude here since you'd want the emulation *bundled* into Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, etc. in order to be effective. Please, at least think things through to a minimal degree while you're making your wish lists. :) > Because FreeBSD, by some estimates, has 2/3 the installed base of Linux. I think those estimates probably involved large amounts of crack cocaine. There's no way in hell we're 2/3rds their size; that's wishful thinking on a grand scale. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 12:53:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E23114BF5 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:53:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA52252; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:53:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Steve Price Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:34:42 CST." Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <52250.921876798@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Try as I might I can't get Netscape to record anywhere that > I'm downloading a copy of the Linux version only to run it on > a FreeBSD box. This is very bad! I download the Linux version. I'm afraid that this is something of a red-herring argument, albeit probably unintentionally. To explain why, let's examine the process which goes on behind the scenes in producing something like the Netscape directory server product and how you, the user, fit into all of this: 1. Vendor X (in this case Netscape) has product Y which they'd like to get to the maximum number of users, both for reasons of profit and to grow mindshare. They then do some research to determine which plaforms will give them the maximum bang-for-buck in this direction, since all development work is expen$ive. 2. Having gone and done various literature searches, vendor X determines that the major OS vendors are the commercial folks (Solaris, SCO, etc) and Linux, at least from the installed base perspective. FreeBSD doesn't quite show up here simply because our installed base is a lot more nebulous and we don't show up on the cover of Time regularly, so they're less inclined to settle for our nebulous numbers (vs Linux's almost equally nebulous numbers). 3. Engineering is given directions based on this survey work and, eventually, produce N binaries for these various platforms. 4. You, the user, are finally presented with this list of binaries on some FTP server. If it's there for Linux, you as a FreeBSD user can run it. If it's not, you can't and it doesn't matter (historically) how loudly you hell for a native version since you just didn't stack up in step #2 and no amount of yelling is going to immediately change that, if at all. 5. Given market feedback, Vendor X eventually goes back and does steps 2-4 again. This is where "emulation" hurts us, yes, but we'd also have never gotten past step 4 without it. Catch-22. Rather than take the emulation out and merely trade one evil for another, however, there are better alternatives. Pressuring vendor X to put "FreeBSD (with Linux emulation)" down as a survey item, for example, so that you can be a proper part of step #5 is one good approach. Another is to try and get vendor X to have their product do just a little bit of extra scratching around to determine whether it's running on a real Linux box or actually a FreeBSD box. This isn't so far-fetched since many vendors are having to do this kind of thing anyway just to figure out which *linux* flavor they're running on, assuming that such demographic/technical data is important to them. There's also a common fallacy here, which is that if we just but had a FreeBSD native version of product Y, life would be good and we'd be well on our way to establishing a good relationship with vendor X and the market it served. Our experience with Xi Graphics and the CDE product proved the exact opposite. XiG sells thousands of copies of CDE for Linux and, after significant pressure from ME (for which I feel more than a little responsible) to get a FreeBSD native version out there so we could reach parity with XiG's product line (and they do sell a lot of FreeBSD servers, so it seemed a reasonable thing to do at the time), they finally invested the time and money to do it. Tada! CDE for FreeBSD! Call marketing! Put it on the web pages! To make a long story short, they sold 3 whole copies of it and finally discontinued the product again. There just wasn't any interest, for some reason, and by demanding a native product I pretty much just wasted their time and money. That's not a good example of how you make friends with vendors or establish market credibility and, by shooting our bolt with CDE, we may well have a much steeper ramp to climb if we ever want to ask XiG for something similar in the future. It's sadly not at all inconceivable to imagine that we could well end up doing this AGAIN to some other ISV if we just blindly demanded FreeBSD native versions in knee-jerk fashion without actually checking to see if there's a *market* for them, and it's not enough to say that this is the ISV's problem and not ours since we're the ones trying to establish some credibility for ourselves - it IS our problem if the ISV goes away again in disgust. That, in a mere 5000 words, is why I'm now a pragmatist. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 13: 5:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 519C115208 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:04:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA28144; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:04:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:56:16 -0700 To: Mark Diekhans From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903192017.MAA19634@osprey.grizzly.com> References: <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:17 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Mark Diekhans wrote: >>a few changes you'll need to make -- plus more testing. So >>it's better to target FreeBSD. Your app will still run on Linux >>perfectly well via the emulator." > >No, it will not. The user most likely doesn't have the emulator, some action >will have to be take to get it installed and running on their system. Since >it is almost certainly more than a LKM (libraries, etc), this >is not an easy thing to manage. Why would a Linux vendor include a FreeBSD >emulator unless the demand generated by the apps only being available for >FreeBSD was there? Because the incremental cost of putting it on the disk is roughly zero, and every user who has to call in and ask how to load it explicitly represents a potential support call and hence an expense. The user might even give up and SWITCH to FreeBSD if the Linux vendor is not helpful. Hence, it is in the Linux vendor's best interest to include the emulator. >It seems to be a opportunity to spend precious resources pursing a >real long shot when there are many things that have a higher probability >in producing good results. It's not a long shot at all; it's really the biggest chance FreeBSD has to leverage the success of Linux. Linux emulation, by contrast, was the long shot -- and in fact a very bad strategy. He who emulates, suffocates. >A practical strategy for application development would be just that: >a development environment that lets a single source generate native >binaries for both Linux and *BSD. Not that I am proposing this, >as it will still need market pressure to get it adopted and >incure costs for support and manufacturing. The emulator could be part of that scheme. The object would be to have the binary be a FreeBSD binary rather than a Linux binary. >>Only if FreeBSD emulation >>is available on Linux can we capture that first port. > >How do we make it available on Linux? Requiring the application >vendor to include it on their CD-ROM adds a large support cost. >They would need strong market pressure to do this. Again, get it into the mainstream Linux distributions. >In my personal experience, Linux emulation has been one of the best faetures >in terms of promoting FreeBSD to individual users. Alas, every time you do that, FreeBSD gets another strike against it in the eyes of application developers. Remember: the popularity of a platform depends on the number and variety of apps targeted explicitly for it. History has shown that very little else matters. If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 13: 8:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFD715486 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-014.thuntek.net [207.66.52.14]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA18177 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:55 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F2BC2B.451EFFA@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:05:47 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Enterarts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I want to follow up on that posting of the Enterarts press release. ALthough I, too, laugh at the pre-IPO boilerplate (required by the SEC) about forward-looking information, etc., nonetheless, any of you who can get FreeBSD onto the CNN newswire like this as you apply FreeBSD in your companies should most definitely do so. MHO is that FreeBSD doesn't need any more raving-looney advocacy, we need more Yahoo!s. Forget about competing with Linux or Solaris or NT, spend your time building more Yahoo!s with the BSD license. Nothing will bring money to our doors faster than phenomenal business success, and nothing else is likely to have much of any effect at all. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 13:35:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from osprey.grizzly.com (osprey.grizzly.com [209.133.20.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A759156C3 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:35:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from markd@Grizzly.COM) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19894; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:34:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903192134.NAA19894@osprey.grizzly.com> X-Authentication-Warning: osprey.grizzly.com: markd set sender to markd@grizzly.com using -f From: Mark Diekhans To: brett@lariat.org Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:56:16 -0700) Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: Brett Glass >Because the incremental cost of putting it on the disk is roughly zero, and >every user who has to call in and ask how to load it explicitly represents >a potential support call and hence an expense. The incremental cost is not zero, there is a lot more to manufacturing than cutting a CD-ROM (cheaper than dirt); its the testing of an additional platform. Having to test the emulator installation adds signficantly to this cost. If there where only one `Linux', it would probably be more costly than testing the application. Given that there are several `Linux' and `Linux' in practice is a testing nightmare, the cost of testing the emulator would be very high. > The user might even give >up and SWITCH to FreeBSD if the Linux vendor is not helpful. Hence, it is >in the Linux vendor's best interest to include the emulator. Huh? Why would a vendor be movated to make their product look bad? I doubt that they would be willing to incure the support cost of the emulator unless it was obviously outweighted by profit. >It's not a long shot at all; it's really the biggest chance FreeBSD has >to leverage the success of Linux. Linux emulation, by contrast, was the >long shot -- and in fact a very bad strategy. He who emulates, suffocates. I see little agreement with this assertion; and my experience doesn't agree either. >>A practical strategy for application development would be just that: >>a development environment that lets a single source generate native >>binaries for both Linux and *BSD. Not that I am proposing this, >>as it will still need market pressure to get it adopted and >>incure costs for support and manufacturing. > >The emulator could be part of that scheme. The object would be to >have the binary be a FreeBSD binary rather than a Linux binary. You are failing to see the difference; a development environment would allow producing the both binaries at lower cost than a runtime installation of the emulator. It would still be doubtful that this would be enough to get them to do the port without more market pressure. >Again, get it into the mainstream Linux distributions. How? Why would the Linux distributors do this? Has RedHat been asked? >>In my personal experience, Linux emulation has been one of the best faetures >>in terms of promoting FreeBSD to individual users. > >Alas, every time you do that, FreeBSD gets another strike against it >in the eyes of application developers. No, what I have another user who is using FreeBSD instead of Linux. (I did lose several to inferior laptop support). Granted, its not as good as having them use FreeBSD and FreeBSD native apps, but its better than using Linux and Linux native apps (which is better than Windozes and Windozes apps). >Remember: the popularity of a platform depends on the number and variety of >apps targeted explicitly for it. History has shown that very little else >matters. If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. I have been doing commercial software development for 19 years and my experience does not agree with this assertion. This is not saying that native applications are not important, simply that they are not as important as the availablity of applications in general and user base So where does the use of FreeBSD is 66% of Linux statistic come from? Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 13:37:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61764156CF for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id QAA13143; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xmat11906; Fri, 19 Mar 99 16:33:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-reply-to: <52250.921876798@zippy.cdrom.com> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let's get back to the purpose of my original message for a second, please. The demand is there for a Netscape browser that runs natively on FreeBSD. How do I know this? Because it's free [1], and there's no reason for FreeBSD users to use anything else at this time! Do you know any FreeBSD user who, given the choice of a native port and an emulated one, with all else being equal (version numbers, features, etc), would pick the emulated one (except for development or as an academic exercise)? I don't. That said, let's start by moving small stones. Netscape is willing to consider an OFFICIAL FreeBSD port -- they just need to hear it from us. Jordan: how's THAT for pragmatism? (To readers who may wish to respond: please do not reply to all... just reply to the group. Thanks.) SB [1] Before I get flamed for semantics violations, let me define "free". "Free" in this context means that the majority of users can download a fully-functional copy of the program without obligation of payment. On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It's sadly not at all inconceivable to imagine that we could well end > up doing this AGAIN to some other ISV if we just blindly demanded > FreeBSD native versions in knee-jerk fashion without actually checking > to see if there's a *market* for them, and it's not enough to say that > this is the ISV's problem and not ours since we're the ones trying to > establish some credibility for ourselves - it IS our problem if the > ISV goes away again in disgust. > > That, in a mere 5000 words, is why I'm now a pragmatist. :-) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 14: 7:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498BD15794 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:07:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA18283; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:06:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:06:57 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) In-Reply-To: <52250.921876798@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: # > Try as I might I can't get Netscape to record anywhere that # > I'm downloading a copy of the Linux version only to run it on # > a FreeBSD box. This is very bad! I download the Linux version. # # I'm afraid that this is something of a red-herring argument, albeit # probably unintentionally. To explain why, let's examine the process # which goes on behind the scenes in producing something like the # Netscape directory server product and how you, the user, fit into all # of this: [pragmatism elided] Definitely unintentional. Their biggest issue was not in doing the port. It only took a couple of weeks to do the Linux port according to one of the developers that I spoke to. It is the maintenance costs associated with having to support another port. How does one go about combatting this type of logic? Logic that as a developer myself I have a hard time refuting. Having an emulator that allows me to use a Linux binary works for me, but to others within my organization, emulation is not an option when they can use it on the real deal. They don't seem to care about having a more robust platform on which to run it. The patented answer is that "Linux is happening" so we are going to use that. To which I respond, "NT is happening too, but you are wanting to move away from it. Now that we have the freedom to choose let's evaulate our alternatives and pick what works best for us." I can't seem to win for losing. In fact, just today a person came into my office and wanted to ask Dr. Linux (which is what my company has labeled me since I am the biggest free OS advocate here and they believe free OS == Linux) a question. With my skin crawling, I smiled, answered their question, and sent them on their merry way. I'm about two shakes of a gnat's *ss away from announcing my discovery of a new distribution, BSD/Linux, to see how far that flies before they catch on. :) The same people who told me a year ago I was nuts for mentioning wanting to use free software have now come full circle and want to do everything with Linux. In their minds Linux == free software. :( -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 14:14:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B06157B0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:14:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id RAA00762; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (4.1) id xma000602; Fri, 19 Mar 99 17:13:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:13:25 -0500 (EST) From: Zippy Subject: 66%? To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just FYI, here are the latest (paraphrased) stats from IOSC (http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount). I'm sure we can all poke holes in the methodology, so let's not start :) Sample: RIPE + .edu, for ftp+news+www services: 1. Linux Count 287093, +0.9% last 3 months, 28.5% recognition ... 5. *BSD Count 150961, -6.0% last 3 months, 15.0% recognition The data are pretty raw. Since queso is used, there's a chance that hosts aren't recognized properly (% recognition shows this? Can't find the docs.) Anyway, just more numbers to ponder. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 14:26: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B4C15A60 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:25:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA13743; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA20026; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:25:38 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA15170; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: <36F2CEDB.CECBD52E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:25:31 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wsanchez@apple.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apple's open source... References: <199903191936.LAA33678@scv4.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > > In fact, I'm still looking to use FreeBSD libraries in the future, > and I've even started some of the porting work, though I keep > getting distracted. :-) Go tell Tim Swihart *I* said to leave you alone and let you get on with the really important (i.e. FreeBSD) work. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 14:40:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D422915810 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:40:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA13914; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:39:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA20413; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 14:39:23 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA16019; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: <36F2D20C.5813EB8A@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:39:08 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Steve Price , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) References: <52250.921876798@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Try as I might I can't get Netscape to record anywhere that > > I'm downloading a copy of the Linux version only to run it on > > a FreeBSD box. This is very bad! I download the Linux version. > > I'm afraid that this is something of a red-herring argument, albeit > probably unintentionally. To explain why, let's examine the process > which goes on behind the scenes in producing something like the > Netscape directory server product and how you, the user, fit into all > of this: > > [...] > > It's sadly not at all inconceivable to imagine that we could well end > up doing this AGAIN to some other ISV if we just blindly demanded > FreeBSD native versions in knee-jerk fashion without actually checking > to see if there's a *market* for them, and it's not enough to say that > this is the ISV's problem and not ours since we're the ones trying to > establish some credibility for ourselves - it IS our problem if the > ISV goes away again in disgust. > > That, in a mere 5000 words, is why I'm now a pragmatist. :-) It's important to establish a relationship with a vendor before attempting to yank them around also. That's the compelling part of sending them a brand if their product already works; they don't have to do the work. Once that has happened, we can wedge our foot further and further into the door. Here's an ideal sequence: 1) We tell vendor that their Linux product works on FreeBSD. We've created a package that will install it, and we'd like them to stick our little logo and a link to the package file on their web site. They say "sure" and do it. 2) The app, whatever it is, achieves a level of satisfaction among FreeBSD users. It's becoming apparent that people are using it on FreeBSD, so we ask them to track how many FreeBSD vs. Linux downloads they're getting. They say "sure" and do it. 3) The app starts getting popular, FreeBSD people are clicking for it in droves. The advocacy group has cautioned people not to share it, but to download from the vendor so they get an accurate view of how many FreeBSD users they're getting. Now, there are just these few little bugs we see in FreeBSD, or this nice feature. If they'd just add some code to check to see if this is a FreeBSD machine, and if so, add this little extra function... They say "sure" and it comes out in the next release. 4) The app gets wildly popular. FreeBSD downloads are (nearly) outstripping Linux downloads. The vendor calls Jordan and says "can you recommend a good FreeBSD-savvy programmer who wants to work from home and get paid boatloads of money to make a FreeBSD-native version of our app?" Jordan gives them my name, and we *all* live happily ever after, but me especially. See what a great plan this is? 'Sbeautiful, man! ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 16:27:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0D614EC5 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA29804; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:27:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:26:53 -0700 To: Mark Diekhans From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Netscape browser Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903192134.NAA19894@osprey.grizzly.com> References: <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:34 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Mark Diekhans wrote: >>Because the incremental cost of putting it on the disk is roughly zero, and >>every user who has to call in and ask how to load it explicitly represents >>a potential support call and hence an expense. > >The incremental cost is not zero, there is a lot more to manufacturing than >cutting a CD-ROM (cheaper than dirt); its the testing of an additional >platform. Having to test the emulator installation adds signficantly >to this cost. Not very much. Remember, the disk foundries don't do huge amounts of testing, and this one small part of a very large distribution. >If there where only one `Linux', it would probably be >more costly than testing the application. Given that there are several >`Linux' and `Linux' in practice is a testing nightmare, the cost of testing >the emulator would be very high. Non sequitur. The publisher of each distribution would only test his distribution. >> The user might even give >>up and SWITCH to FreeBSD if the Linux vendor is not helpful. Hence, it is >>in the Linux vendor's best interest to include the emulator. > >Huh? Why would a vendor be movated to make their product look bad? They'd be motivated to make it look GOOD by including the emulator. >>It's not a long shot at all; it's really the biggest chance FreeBSD has >>to leverage the success of Linux. Linux emulation, by contrast, was the >>long shot -- and in fact a very bad strategy. He who emulates, suffocates. > >I see little agreement with this assertion; and my experience doesn't >agree either. You claim to write software. But have you ever marketed it? Are you aware of what tactics have actually succeeded out there in the cold, hard, real world? I'd venture to say that you're refusing to learn from history and hence are doomed to repeat it. FreeBSD == the OS/2 of the free software world. >You are failing to see the difference; a development environment would allow >producing the both binaries at lower cost than a runtime installation of the >emulator. It would still be doubtful that this would be enough to get them >to do the port without more market pressure. If they create two binaries, that's still two SKUs. Twice as many products in inventory; twice as many to ship. Twice as much of a loss per revision. And since the FreeBSD version will sell fewer copies than the Linux version, SOMEONE will get the bright idea of dropping the FreeBSD one. Sorry, but the binary must be for FreeBSD and ONLY for FreeBSD, or it's a net loss. >>>In my personal experience, Linux emulation has been one of the best faetures >>>in terms of promoting FreeBSD to individual users. >> >>Alas, every time you do that, FreeBSD gets another strike against it >>in the eyes of application developers. > >No, what I have another user who is using FreeBSD instead of Linux. (I did >lose several to inferior laptop support). Granted, its not as good as having >them use FreeBSD and FreeBSD native apps, but its better than using Linux and >Linux native apps (which is better than Windozes and Windozes apps). It's not good for the platform. The only thing that ultimately benefits the platform is sales of apps compiled specifically for that platform. >I have been doing commercial software development for 19 years and my >experience does not agree with this assertion. That's the problem: you've been doing development, not marketing or sales. And you haven't followed the economics of the software industry, as I have for 20 years. I hate to be the voice of pragmatism here, but the strategy you're suggesting is not a winning one. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 17:24:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E8314E95 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA00350; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:23:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319182117.00c2dab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:22:57 -0700 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Aussie Linux Y2K failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This just came in via Dave Farber's "Interesting People" list: >Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:41:16 -0500 >From: Jock Gill >To: Dave Farber > >Dave, > >For IP sleuthing. > >From a reliable source I learned that earlier today, Friday, in >Australia, at a large icecream plant, their was a very significant >Y2K test. And a very unsettling failure. Seems that their Linux >servers went awry. Seems that this test was confirmed at Linux >central but that no one undestands the problem: i.e no known fix at >this moment. This is unsettling if true. > >Perhaps IPers can tell the rest of us the true situation with Linux >and Y2K. I regret that I am unable to give the exact steps which >provoked the Linux Y2K problem. > >Regards, > >Jock > Can any of our Aussie mailing list participants confirm this? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 18:47:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from osprey.grizzly.com (osprey.grizzly.com [209.133.20.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CA215027 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from markd@Grizzly.COM) Received: (from markd@localhost) by osprey.grizzly.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA23502; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:46:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:46:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903200246.SAA23502@osprey.grizzly.com> X-Authentication-Warning: osprey.grizzly.com: markd set sender to markd@grizzly.com using -f From: Mark Diekhans To: brett@lariat.org Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Fri, 19 Mar 1999 17:26:53 -0700) Subject: Re: Netscape browser References: <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: Brett Glass >At 01:34 PM 3/19/99 -0800, Mark Diekhans wrote: ... >Non sequitur. The publisher of each distribution would only test his >distribution. No, none of this is a non sequitur; my point has been missed. Unless the majority of installed Linux systems have the emulator *already* installed, an app vendor is going to have to include it and do additional testing on Linux. Now if the emulator is always available, it alters the cost picture significantly to an app developer (although they still need to test to ensure its going to run on Linux). So how is this going to happen? >You claim to write software. I do write software, commercial, free and research. Right now, I sometimes do all three in the same day. > But have you ever marketed it? I make no claims to be a marketing expert, but I have participated in many engineering decisions based around marketing, software distrubtions, etc. >Are you >aware of what tactics have actually succeeded out there in the cold, hard, >real world? I have at least 1/2 a clue. > I'd venture to say that you're refusing to learn from history >and hence are doomed to repeat it. FreeBSD == the OS/2 of the free software >world. By turning insulting, you detract from the credibity of this argument. If IBM can't convince vendors to port to a platform with a minor market share, how can FreeBSD, Inc? >And since the FreeBSD version will sell fewer copies than the Linux version, >SOMEONE will get the bright idea of dropping the FreeBSD one. Sorry, but >the binary must be for FreeBSD and ONLY for FreeBSD, or it's a net loss. So far, you haven't made a case that has convinced me, or it appears very many others, that this will happen. >It's not good for the platform. The only thing that ultimately benefits the >platform is sales of apps compiled specifically for that platform. So its better to just let people run Linux since the apps they need are not there *now*? Since most of the people that I have assisted are not running high-end servers, there will be little reason for them to switch once they have started down one path unless the tables completely turn in the app world. >That's the problem: you've been doing development, not marketing or sales. >And you haven't followed the economics of the software industry, as I have >for 20 years. Doing development does not make me being complete ignorant of related areas, where did that conclusion come from? Having certain knowledge of some areas does make one an expert and I claim no expertise in these fields. But claiming expertise is not enough to buttress a weak proposal with a lot of holes. Fill in the gaps with the details. Create a site outline a formal marketing and engnieering planning for getting an emulator in place and making it economically advantageous to vendors. >I hate to be the voice of pragmatism here, but the strategy >you're suggesting is not a winning one. If you really want people to get behind your proposal as being a pragmatism strategy, you are going to have have to lay out a much more detailed proposal on the various problems people see in actually having it succeed. I don't think anyone would argue that having tons of native FreeBSD ports would be great, but until there is a method to make that happen. You are making the proposal for an alternative strategy, its up to you to make a convincing case. A much better use of your time than arguing with me. After all, I might just be some high school visual basic programmer who is posting this because I can get a friday night date. Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 19:34:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (ha1.rdc1.tn.home.com [24.2.7.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C6E1536A for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:34:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from conio@home.com) Received: from thanatos ([24.4.122.130]) by mail.rdc1.tn.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with SMTP id <19990320033424.WZEM9916.mail.rdc1.tn.home.com@thanatos> for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:34:24 -0800 From: "Sam Stephenson" To: Subject: Sample FreeBSD Images Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:31:58 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2212 (4.71.2419.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Although I'm not a member of the Advocacy List, I heard from another subscriber about your need for images and decided to make a few. A huge fan of FreeBSD myself, I too have often felt the need for more publicity and a fresh image for the FreeBSD community. Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, and write me back if you like what you see. I'd be happy to create more, and/or design web pages if necessary. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. --Sam Stephenson conio@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 19:46: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F7114C94 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA05849; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:44:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319224024.00ac6f10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:42:38 -0500 To: "Sam Stephenson" , From: Brian Adkins Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:31 PM 3/19/99 -0500, Sam Stephenson wrote: >Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, >and write me back if you like what you see. I'd be happy to create more, >and/or design web pages if necessary. Thank you for your time, and I look >forward to hearing from you soon. > >--Sam Stephenson Nice work Sam. It's nice to see a logo image that doesn't have the Berkeley daemon! As much as I like the little guy, I don't think he has to be on *every* logo. Brian Adkins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 20: 6:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aspect.nichols.com (aspect.nichols.com [152.136.53.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5020D14C94 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kyserj@nichols.com) Received: from sapphire.nichols.com (sapphire.nichols.com [152.136.50.27]) by aspect.nichols.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA60979 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:06:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from nichols.com ([152.136.49.231]) by sapphire.nichols.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6928; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:06:19 -0600 Message-ID: <36F31F42.C3E6090E@nichols.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:08:34 -0600 From: "Jeff Kyser" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Stephenson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sam Stephenson wrote: > Although I'm not a member of the Advocacy List, I heard from another > subscriber about your need for images and decided to make a few. A huge fan > of FreeBSD myself, I too have often felt the need for more publicity and a > fresh image for the FreeBSD community. > > I'm a newbie, so apologies in advance, but how about "the power to set you free"as a slogan? -jeff > Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, > and write me back if you like what you see. I'd be happy to create more, > and/or design web pages if necessary. Thank you for your time, and I look > forward to hearing from you soon. > > --Sam Stephenson > conio@home.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 20:12:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6627514E9F for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23870; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:12:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F3201B.EFAC54D9@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:12:11 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Adkins Cc: Sam Stephenson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images References: <4.1.19990319224024.00ac6f10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Adkins wrote: > > At 10:31 PM 3/19/99 -0500, Sam Stephenson wrote: > >Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, > >and write me back if you like what you see. I'd be happy to create more, > >and/or design web pages if necessary. Thank you for your time, and I look > >forward to hearing from you soon. > > > >--Sam Stephenson > > Nice work Sam. It's nice to see a logo image that doesn't have the > Berkeley daemon! As much as I like the little guy, I don't think he has to > be on *every* logo. Exactly the opposite of what I thought. I like the logos without the daemon, but they seem lacking somehow. Here's what we need: 1) Slogans. Decide if we're going to stick with one, or go with the three tiers that have been discussed, to wit: a) hardware that is known to work well with FreeBSD - motherboards, I/O cards, hard disks, graphics adapters, whatever. b) native FreeBSD applications, like Netscape Navigator/Communicator and (soon to be) Applixware. Also any "free" app suites that have been ported to FreeBSD - KDE, Gnome, etc. c) emulated applications that are known to work well with FreeBSD. We've discussed requiring these to have an installation kit for FreeBSD before being badged. Examples include Wingz, WordPerfect, etc. 2) Logo(s) suitable for boxes. These should be roughly 1" x 1", camera ready images like the "SCO OK" and "Cool it works with Linux" logos. 3) Logo(s) suitable for web pages. These should be attractive and fast to load. For simplicity sake, it would probably be best to assume a slogan for the time being. Your "Runs on FreeBSD" is fine for this use. ;^) Have at it. Invite your artistic friends to the party. It's not possible to lose this contest unless nobody shows up. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 20:32:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.iwaynet.net (smtp.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C598C1570D for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by smtp.iwaynet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA06682 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:31:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990319232410.00ab42e0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:32:12 -0500 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Adkins Subject: Successful sites using FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm very new to FreeBSD (I installed it a few days ago), and one of the things that impressed me when I was evaluating it prior to deciding to try it out was Yahoo!'s and Walnut Creek's use of it. The fact that those two heavily hit sites used FreeBSD gave me a very favorable impression of the operating system. I was surprised I wasn't made aware of that fact until I started looking specifically at the operating system. If those kind of success stories were more widely known, I think it would benefit FreeBSD. I don't suppose Yahoo! would be willing to put a "powered by" log on their front page :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 20:46:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424E915526 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:46:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11939; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:45:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:45:36 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Sam Stephenson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Sam Stephenson wrote: > Take a look at a few of my sample images at > http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, and write me back if you like what > you see. I'd be happy to create more, and/or design web pages if > necessary. I think they look pretty good. However why does the bottom one's border not go all the way to the left side? Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 20:56:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DE6153A9 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (ppp-111-113.mtl.aei.ca [207.107.111.113]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14455; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:54:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36F329DD.AB3F11B2@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:53:49 -0500 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: fr, en, zh MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Brian Adkins , Sam Stephenson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images References: <4.1.19990319224024.00ac6f10@mailbox.iwaynet.net> <36F3201B.EFAC54D9@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Brian Adkins wrote: > > > > At 10:31 PM 3/19/99 -0500, Sam Stephenson wrote: > > >Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, > > >and write me back if you like what you see. I'd be happy to create more, > > >and/or design web pages if necessary. Thank you for your time, and I look > > >forward to hearing from you soon. > > > > > >--Sam Stephenson > > > > Nice work Sam. It's nice to see a logo image that doesn't have the > > Berkeley daemon! As much as I like the little guy, I don't think he has to > > be on *every* logo. > > Exactly the opposite of what I thought. I like the logos without the > daemon, but they seem lacking somehow. > > Here's what we need: > > 1) Slogans. Decide if we're going to stick with one, or go with the > three tiers that have been discussed, to wit: ...snip... I remember that when I was between FreeBSD 2.2.5 and all those linux distributions, I choosed FreeBSD because: 1) It was writed on it "...Rock-Stable...". That was what really convinced me, has I was a Windows 95 user reinstalling the big thing each month again and again... 2) There where japanese characters on the back side :-) I like Rock-Stable. -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][French piss me off! - Cartman, South Park] [The FreeBSD User Guide][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/freebsd/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 19 23:30:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-24.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5021503A; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:30:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA01218; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:30:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:30:16 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: "Open Systems Inc." Cc: Mark Ovens , Zippy , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Open Systems Inc. wrote: > Not to condone IE or MS but netscape renders slower than hell. Navigator for X is slower than hell. Navigator 4.5 on my PII/450 is about on par with Navigator 4.5 on a P166 Win95 box. Hmm. > I can pull up our local news papers URL and it sits for a good few seconds > while it renders the page then draws it. IE just loads it right up. > I just don't like netscape that much anymore. Its slow, buggy and slow. > And between the two choices IE seems more stable, and faster. > Granted im sure its full of hacks and whatnot but it's still faster. Wait until you've got to use Windows update. I've seen the actual windows update crash MSIE various times, then watch as *.microsoft.com was treated as www.microsoft.com, and oh have you seen the MSIE5 installer GPF yet? Or have you seen IE3 basically take over your computer as you're downloading something with your modem? It's crap.. a rose by any other name... From what I've seen MSIE is pretty nice when it works, which isn't too often for me. And as unstable as most of the browsers are, I think it's just the X11 versions of Navigator that are suffering the most. > I cant believe I just endorsed a MS product, /me smacks you with a dead penguin - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 0: 7:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1290E150AA for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:07:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12990; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:05:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903200805.AAA12990@implode.root.com> To: Brian Adkins Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Successful sites using FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 23:32:12 EST." <4.1.19990319232410.00ab42e0@mailbox.iwaynet.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:05:25 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I'm very new to FreeBSD (I installed it a few days ago), and one of the >things that impressed me when I was evaluating it prior to deciding to try >it out was Yahoo!'s and Walnut Creek's use of it. The fact that those two >heavily hit sites used FreeBSD gave me a very favorable impression of the >operating system. > >I was surprised I wasn't made aware of that fact until I started looking >specifically at the operating system. > >If those kind of success stories were more widely known, I think it would >benefit FreeBSD. I don't suppose Yahoo! would be willing to put a "powered >by" log on their front page :) We've asked. Many times. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 3: 6:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFA214F52 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA08155; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:06:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Taylor Cc: Sam Stephenson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Mar 1999 12:06:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brett Taylor's message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:45:36 -0700 (MST)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Taylor writes: > I think they look pretty good. However why does the bottom one's border > not go all the way to the left side? Look closer: the daemon has his tail hooked around the left border. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 3: 7:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5EA014F9F for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 03:07:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA08172; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:07:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Sam Stephenson" Cc: Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Mar 1999 12:07:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Sam Stephenson"'s message of "Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:31:58 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Sam Stephenson" writes: > Take a look at a few of my sample images at http://thanatos.conio.net/fbsd/, > and write me back if you like what you see. Excellent work! I'll definitely use some of this on my own sites. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 4:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D403155FF for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 04:43:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26249; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:41:47 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:41:47 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: Mark Diekhans , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Netscape browser Message-ID: <19990320084146.A25246@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319103804.00a8ec60@localhost> <4.1.19990319114734.00b794b0@localhost> <4.1.19990319134858.03fd24e0@localhost> <199903192134.NAA19894@osprey.grizzly.com> <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990319171820.00c28ed0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:26:53PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett, On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 05:26:53PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >>It's not a long shot at all; it's really the biggest chance FreeBSD has > >>to leverage the success of Linux. Linux emulation, by contrast, was the > >>long shot -- and in fact a very bad strategy. He who emulates, suffocates. > > > >I see little agreement with this assertion; and my experience doesn't > >agree either. > > You claim to write software. But have you ever marketed it? Are you > aware of what tactics have actually succeeded out there in the cold, hard, > real world? I'd venture to say that you're refusing to learn from history > and hence are doomed to repeat it. FreeBSD == the OS/2 of the free software > world. At this point it doesn't matter what Jordan or anyone else thinks of this idea. If you think it's a good idea then just *go and do it*. If it works, that's great. If it doesn't work, well, that's a bit of a pisser, but sometimes the world works like that. Expending all this energy just *talking* about it when there's no code to talk about is, basically, fruitless. In fact, it's probably worse than that. There's *nothing* the *BSD folks can do to stop you (and others) writing a FreeBSD emulator for Linux. I suspect you might have a harder job selling it to the RedHat, Debian, and other distributions, but you can at least give it a shot. If nothing else it'll be quite a cool technology demonstration. [ Aside: on a related note, the VMWare folks; can a host OS and a guest OS talk to one another? If they can, it might be more interesting to *really* push for FreeBSD to be supported as a host OS so we can then run Linux binaries that way. Linux is already a supported host OS, so Linux can *already* run FreeBSD binaries. Worth thinking about. ] Just go and do it. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 5:21:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2D21504A for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ifi.uio.no) Received: from bergelmir.ifi.uio.no (2602@bergelmir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.172]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id OAA08469 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:21:15 +0100 (MET) Received: (from des@localhost) by bergelmir.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:21:15 +0100 (MET) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: [Patrick Oonk ] Promail trojan From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Mar 1999 14:21:14 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 54 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ...or, "Why You Should Never Trust Closed-Source Software". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ifi.uio.no ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Message-ID: <19990319224030.D7090@atro.pine.nl> Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:40:30 +0100 Reply-To: patrick@pine.nl From: Patrick Oonk Subject: Promail trojan To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG http://cool.icestorm.net/aeon/news.html News and security advisories from Aeon Labs. [03.99] ProMail v1.21, an advanced freeware mail program for Windows 95/98, is a trojan. It has been spread through several worldwide distribution networks (SimTel.net, Shareware.com and others) as proml121.zip. Upon discovering - through LAN sniffing - that the program would attempt to connect to SMTP instead of POP3 when a regular mail check was performed, we reverse-engineered the software. The executable, which appears to have been created with Borland Delphi, has been packed with Petite (a shareware Win32-EXE compressor) and then "hexed" to make disassembly harder. ProMail v1.21 supports multiple mailboxes; every time a new mailbox is created, an "ini" file containing the users full name, passwords, email addresses, servers and more is generated. Prior to doing any other action, the program performs a check for a valid network connection which, if found, allows for the sending of ALL of the personal user data, including the user's password in encrypted format, to an account on NetAddress - a free email provider. Apart from this "feature", the software is 100 % functional and very well done. For further information or a more detailed analysis contact us. -- : Patrick Oonk - http://patrick.mypage.org/ - patrick@pine.nl : : Pine Internet B.V. Consultancy, installatie en beheer : : Tel: +31-70-3111010 - Fax: +31-70-3111011 - http://www.pine.nl/ : : -- Pine Security Digest - http://security.pine.nl/ (Dutch) ---- : : "unix is voor types zonder sociaal leven..." - Patrick van Eijk : ------- End of forwarded message ------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 5:23:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD04114D1D for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17956; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:22:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017948; Sat Mar 20 06:22:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04230; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:22:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201322.GAA04230@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD advertising clause To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:22:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, rab@pike.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18191.921785939@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 18, 99 11:38:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > This is utter BS. I can't believe a law professor from Berkeley who > > was willing to make such comments in a public forum has not read the > > law; this makes me doubt either your veracity or your memory. Here is > > the relevent cite: > > I can't believe that somebody with no formal legal training would jump > into this argument and attempt a more "correct" interpretation either. As I have stated before, feel free to obtain your own copy of the Opinion from the clerks office. The judge who rendered the opinion certainly had legal training; I'm merely paraphrasing his statements, and those of Counsel from the Venture Law Group. I am constatly amazed by what people assume I have and have not studied. No, I am not a member of the Bar; but neither do I think legal documents (or standards documents) are so opaque that you have to specialize in a tiny field of study to understand their denotations (and connotations). If you want a professional legal opinion rather than hearsay, pay someone to render one; I'm sure we're all eager to see the results posted. > > Well, then you've never talked to a developer. You can have my claim > > credit clause when you pry it from my cold, dead hands; it's the only > > He's not talking about the "claim credit" clause - the "advertising > clause" he's talking about doesn't effect you at all. This is a red > herring. I suppose here that you're trying to relabel clause 2 as the "claim credit" clause, and 3 as the "advertising" clause. This is an incorrect characterization; clause 2 is the "license reproduction" clause. The "advertising" clause is Richard Stallman's name for the "claim credit" clause, and I refuse to allow his label to stick. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 5:54:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50DBA14F23 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23288; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:53:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd023277; Sat Mar 20 06:53:08 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05578; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:53:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201353.GAA05578@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux emulation != FreeBSD sale (was Re: Netscape browser) To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:53:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, wes@softweyr.com, sprice@hiwaay.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990319084744.A55685@ontario.mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Mar 19, 99 08:47:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > He is an opportunity that we should not let slip by us. We should use some > of our very scarce money to pay a grapic artist to come up with a "Works > with FreeBSD" logo. It seems that we have even fewer graphic artists than > writers in our camp. Now that I think about it, we have a standing offer to > put a FreeBSD logo up at link exchange. Getting vendors to put our logo on > their web page means we will get more mind share with the suits. Spec the graphic, provide whatever clip-art that anyone could see incorporating, and the logo will come. Right now, there's a big barrier to entry (it's like Dilbert talking to the marketing people about the GruntMaster 6000 or the underwater barbecue). We want it a bit edgier, with pizazz, and does it have to be an operating system? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 6:13:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1653F14CA8 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:13:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07967; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:07:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd007948; Sat Mar 20 08:07:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06344; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:12:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201412.HAA06344@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netscape browser To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:12:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F2A8C8.FC32C967@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 19, 99 12:43:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > The maximum ROI would come if the developer could use BSD-licensed code > > verbatim in his or her app and target both FreeBSD and Linux via the > > emulator. > > Use BSD-licensed code in his or her app? We're talking about applications > here, not operating system kernels! How many APPLICATIONS do you know of > that incorporate part of the operating system into them? I think that a FreeBSD emulator that was maintained for the top 5 Linux distributions (for example) would tend to stabilize Linux considerably, from the point of view of a developer. This stability alone would be worthwhile; given the FreeBSD ABI and libraries, FreeBSD is the natural platform to develop code on. Consider that this would make the FreeBSD libraries the predominant cross-distribution Linux libraries, immediately. The problem with Linux productization, as was shown by the Cobalt CERT advisory for the WWW pages not being in a subdirectory of the users home directory, instead of the user's home directory, is that everyone has to do their own, and everyone has to dot all of the I's and cross all of the T's themselves. And it's a daunting task, fraught with the risk of mistakes like Cobalt's, however quickly it was corrected. There is also no little cachet in the fact that as Linux components are updated, component integrators are pressured by users to make Ad-Hoc changes that end up being detrimental to the stability of the system. Witness the RedHat, S.U.S.E., and Debian libc compatability issues... which then drive compiler issues, which then drive... etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 6:22:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DDC14F52 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26674; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:22:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd026666; Sat Mar 20 07:22:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06712; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:22:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201422.HAA06712@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netscape browser To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:22:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <52175.921875299@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 99 12:28:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I thought that we were here to discuss real-life issues. Uh, no, it's to discuss marketing. 8-). > In real-life, just having FreeBSD emulation for Linux by no > means gets people to suddenly rush to produce FreeBSD binaries > because, as I said before, the incentive just isn't there and it isn't > there because of NUMBERS, nothing that you or I can change overnight. Right. You would probably need to provide a full-on developement kit as RPM's and whatever other packaging stuff there is on the Linux distributions you target. Such a kit would produce "Linux" binaries, but "file" would recognize them as FreeBSD. > It's also a point which is undoubtedly moot since I don't see anyone > capable of doing the actual work to implement such a thing emerging > from the woodwork anywhere. SEF would be a good candidate, if you could way-lay him. Or Soren. Brett is spot-on about it being a job best suited to past successful emulator writers to act as tech lead and to track the binary changes. > Various people in the Linux world have looked at this problem at > various times, if for no reason other than to shut us up about the > emulation issue, and they've all concluded that It Would Be Hard - > too hard to contemplate for such a nebulous gain. With respect, there is a difference between a software engineer and a programmer. This job needs a software engineer. I'm unfortunately overcommitted on basic technology reference implementations and IETF drafts at this point. You need an engineer to design it; once that's done, programmers can take on the task of implementing the design. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 6:25:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4E214FC5 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA16420; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:24:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: sales@vmware.com, tech_info@vmware.com Subject: FreeBSD as a host OS From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Mar 1999 15:24:27 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, After reading your FAQ and product specs, I am convinced that VMWare is the best thing since sliced bread. However, I am very disappointed that you have no plans to support FreeBSD as a host OS; if you did, I would gladly pre-order a copy. I am quite certain that the FreeBSD development team will be happy to provide any technical assistance needed in porting VMWare to FreeBSD. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 6:29:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93A614E1E for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:29:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29846; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:29:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd029829; Sat Mar 20 07:29:00 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07045; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:28:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201428.HAA07045@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Netscape browser To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:28:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <52189.921875486@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 19, 99 12:31:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > An emulation that the typical Linux user had to download and > incorporate into their kernel in order to get it to work would, by no > means, make the average software vendor jump up and down about how > FreeBSD was now a universal API (as Brett desires). That's too much > to expect of the typical Linux user. That means you couldn't just > take the "doesn't matter" attitude here since you'd want the emulation > *bundled* into Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, etc. in order to be > effective. Please, at least think things through to a minimal degree > while you're making your wish lists. :) Linux would be paid. They'd get the entirety of the ports and packages, with all of the automation and build repeatability that the Linux soloutions don't bring to the table. Frankly, I can't imagine at least one or two distributions wouldn't fall totally in line and adopt the FreeBSD user space for the same automation and build repeatability reasons. FreeBSD has already been approached about something similar by Debian, albiet in a somewhat introverted fashion. One warning here: the Larry McVoy clock is ticking on the source code control for full Linux distributions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 6:44: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA3414EEB for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:44:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00334; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:43:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd000319; Sat Mar 20 07:43:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07607; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:43:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903201443.HAA07607@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sample FreeBSD Images To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:43:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brian@lojic.com, conio@home.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36F3201B.EFAC54D9@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 19, 99 09:12:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Nice work Sam. It's nice to see a logo image that doesn't have the > > Berkeley daemon! As much as I like the little guy, I don't think he has to > > be on *every* logo. > > Exactly the opposite of what I thought. I like the logos without the > daemon, but they seem lacking somehow. Heh. Maybe if we drew little corks on his horns (and trident) so that he couldn't accidently put someone's eye out with them, he'd be more politically correct... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 7: 2:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E17614D02 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:02:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu ([132.170.240.30]:43395 "HELO pegasus.cc.ucf.edu" ident: "ewayte") by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu with SMTP id <4404-14265>; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:58:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:58:21 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte Reply-To: Eric Wayte To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in the funny pages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dan Langille posted this link on FreeBSD-chat: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990320.html I just *loved* the 'twitch' part - especially after reading Jordan's report from LinuxWorld! Eric Wayte Database Administrator University of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 7:23:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37DF6152B2 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:23:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-068.thuntek.net [207.66.52.68]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA29634; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:23:20 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F3BD05.51608DD3@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:21:41 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Patrick Oonk ] Promail trojan References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > ...or, "Why You Should Never Trust Closed-Source Software". > > DES Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > ...or, "Why You Should Never Trust Closed-Source Software". > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ifi.uio.no > ------- Start of forwarded message ------- > Message-ID: <19990319224030.D7090@atro.pine.nl> > Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:40:30 +0100 > Reply-To: patrick@pine.nl > From: Patrick Oonk > Subject: Promail trojan > To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG > > http://cool.icestorm.net/aeon/news.html > > News and security advisories from Aeon Labs. > > [03.99] > > ProMail v1.21, an advanced freeware mail program for Windows 95/98, is a > trojan. Yow... broadcast this from the rooftops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 7:29:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076C714F37 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-068.thuntek.net [207.66.52.68]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA00311; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:29:20 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F3BE6D.15695F35@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:27:41 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Wayte Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the funny pages References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ask him if we can keep a local copy on FreeBSD.org? -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 10:35:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE9814D7D; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-017.thuntek.net [207.66.52.17]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA25768; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:35:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36F3E9FE.9669DD32@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:33:34 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: nggg... is not Linux... is not Linux...] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0B5E9A87499A951880D9F36D" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0B5E9A87499A951880D9F36D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy camper! -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net --------------0B5E9A87499A951880D9F36D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from dewey.mindlink.net (IDENT:root@dewey.mindlink.net [204.174.16.4]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA24717 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 11:28:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from 00-80-c8-4c-ba-af.bconnected.net ([209.53.12.221] helo=aspectus) by dewey.mindlink.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #4) id 10OQU6-0004OR-00 for dwilde1@thuntek.net; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:28:34 -0800 Message-ID: <005001be72ff$d59fd000$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> From: "Illiad" To: "Donald Wilde" Subject: Re: nggg... is not Linux... is not Linux... Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 10:31:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Donald, >Loved it! > >Might it be possible to have a local copy on FreeBSD.org? You bet. I do ask that you place a line that says "Reposted with persmission from Illiad. User Friendly is copyright (c) Illiad 1999" etc etc blah blah blah. God I hate legal crap. Anyway, that and a link back to the site would be cool. cheers! Illiad ==================================== Illiad * illiad@userfriendly.org User Friendly, the Comic Strip http://www.userfriendly.org/ --------------0B5E9A87499A951880D9F36D-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 13: 5:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AC714C4A for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:05:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990320210614.DLXW682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:06:14 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Donald Wilde Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 09:06:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the funny pages Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <36F3BE6D.15695F35@thuntek.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990320210614.DLXW682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20 Mar 99, at 8:27, Donald Wilde wrote: > Ask him if we can keep a local copy on FreeBSD.org? I don't think we need to ask. The following is from http://www.userfriendly.org/faq/rights/#web but we hve to wait 2 months. Can I put my favourite USER FRIENDLY cartoons up on my Web page? Sure, within reason. Three or four strips is fine by me. If you start becoming a User Friendly mirror site I could take exception. Also, please don't post any cartoons that are less than 60 days old on your own Web page. That's all I ask. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 17: 5:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E8314D60; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 17:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27096; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:05:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36F445DC.C411784@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:05:32 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: nggg... is not Linux... is not Linux...] References: <36F3E9FE.9669DD32@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > Happy camper! So, how long before we see this on the home page? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 18:18:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53F1114FC9 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00594; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:20:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:20:27 -0500 (EST) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: David Greenman Cc: Brian Adkins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Successful sites using FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199903200805.AAA12990@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >If those kind of success stories were more widely known, I think it would > >benefit FreeBSD. I don't suppose Yahoo! would be willing to put a "powered > >by" log on their front page :) > > We've asked. Many times. > > -DG While I'm sure their ad spots are way out of everyone's price range, do you think even a lesser token payment would sway them at all? I'd be willing to chip in a hundred or two. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 21:10:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BA414C80 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA14982; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:08:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903210508.VAA14982@implode.root.com> To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Brian Adkins , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Successful sites using FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:20:27 EST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:08:14 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Sat, 20 Mar 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >> >If those kind of success stories were more widely known, I think it would >> >benefit FreeBSD. I don't suppose Yahoo! would be willing to put a "powered >> >by" log on their front page :) >> >> We've asked. Many times. >> >> -DG > > While I'm sure their ad spots are way out of everyone's price >range, do you think even a lesser token payment would sway them at all? >I'd be willing to chip in a hundred or two. We've appeared in their add rotation before for free. They just aren't willing to do a powered-by-FreeBSD button. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 20 22:27:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zeprod.MorningStar.Com (zeprod.MorningStar.Com [137.175.23.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6167714BE2 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:27:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@lojic.com) Received: from daytona (overkill.Progressive-Systems.Com [209.41.220.250]) by zeprod.MorningStar.Com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01107 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:26:24 -0500 Message-Id: <4.1.19990321012057.00fa7680@mailbox.iwaynet.net> X-Sender: adkins@mailbox.iwaynet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:26:52 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brian Adkins Subject: RC5-64 Contest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, the distributed.net people got the stats back up today and Team FreeBSD rose 3 to rank 32 and NetBSD Users dropped 1 to rank 28 on the daily stats! http://rc5stats.distributed.net/rc5-64/tlist.php3?low=1&limit=100&source=y A good friend of mine is an avid NetBSD user, but there's nothing wrong with a little healthy competition :) There's still not that many people participating. I think it's possible for Team FreeBSD to keep moving up the rankings, even to the number one slot. It's a fun contest and it might even increase visibility. See http://www.distributed.net/rc5/ for more info on joining the contest and joining Team FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message