From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jun 27 18: 6:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0n.netaddress.usa.net (www0n.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 493CF15296 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 690 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jun 1999 01:06:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990628010614.689.qmail@www0n.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.43 by www0n via web-mailer(M3.2.0.17) on Mon Jun 28 01:06:14 GMT 1999 Date: 27 Jun 99 18:06:14 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD CD's second source X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.2.0.17) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Someone sent me this link. = Maybe someone should help them. I;m not sure about this "FREE BSE" version. ;-> http://www.auctioner.net/bsd32.html Price is listed here. http://www.auctioner.net/application2.html --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jun 27 21:19:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18521524A for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25675; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:19:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025659; Sun Jun 27 21:19:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA25049; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:19:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906280419.VAA25049@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ] To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 04:19:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jesus.monroy@usa.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <67710.930334288@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 25, 99 11:11:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It is possible to take his ability to make pilot errors away from > > him, and avoid this type of complaint altogether. It's called > > "usability engineering". > > No, that's called "Windows." You've obviously never installed a third party driver under Windows. Usability engineering means that after you are done doing it, the resulting code is usable. I don't call a driver that depends on a specific version of a system component that's "upgraded" every time something demands you install the latest version of Internet Explorer particularly usable. There is a difference between taking away options, and taking away useless options. For example, it should be impossible to install x86 FreeBSD without writing a DOS partition table and a DOS-capable MBR, and it should be impossible to install Alpha FreeBSD without a similar DEC-UNIX compatible record. That the tools permit something like that occuring at all is a commentary on the foibles of the tools. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 2:27:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEF414E2D for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:30:57 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761796AA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: "'junkmale@xtra.co.nz'" , Kelly Yancey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Using MS on FreeBSD sites Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:25:05 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Langille [SMTP:junkmale@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 9:50 AM > To: Kelly Yancey > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Using MS on FreeBSD sites > > Another point: I write Windows applications for a living. [ML] > And for the real kicker: I use FrontPage 98 which means I use Windows > on > my desktop. Does that bother you? What should we do about that? [ML] You should be damned to writing Windows applications for a living :) Now, seriously, who cares what do you use to build the Diary? Man, use whatever works for you, be pragmatic. And FrontPage editor definitely beats vi or emacs for HTML, especially tables. Fine tuning is still best done in a non-WYSIWYG editor. > best wishes [ML] Same here, /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 7: 2:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kronos.alcnet.com (kronos.alcnet.com [63.69.28.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BF814DA6 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:02:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kbyanc@alcnet.com) X-Provider: ALC Communications, Inc. http://www.alcnet.com/ Received: from kbyanc (ws-41.alcnet.com [63.69.28.41]) by kronos.alcnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/antispam) with SMTP id KAA61801; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:14:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kelly Yancey" To: "Ladavac Marino" , Cc: Subject: RE: Using MS on FreeBSD sites Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01bec170$4c7cd560$291c453f@kbyanc.alcnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761796AA@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don't get me wrong. I use MS products myself at home and work (actually, this e-mail is written in Outlook). Honestly, I don't expect there are that many people (proportionally) who can say they don't use *any* MS products ever. The only reason I even bothered mentioning it is that I have my share of headaches from linux kids who seem to get a kick out of pointing out anything associated with FreeBSD (even, as in this case, unofficially) that involves MS. Just like some FreeBSD fans get kicks out of pointing out when anything related to linux involves MS (or even FreeBSD, ie. the recent talk about linuxcountry.com being hosting on FreeBSD). I have to admit that I have been rather paranoid lately because I have a number of proposals for projects where I have suggested FreeBSD and am having to fight off attacks from the linux front. I've actually had a server at my own office get linuxed despite my protests (I server *I* have to maintain) after the linux advocate pulled up every piece of dirt he could find on FreeBSD. Whether or not FreeBSDDiary.com is designed with Microsoft FrontPage may not qualify as dirt, but I won't be surprised when somehow it gets turned into an argument for linux and shows up during my next server proposal. I know the world isn't black and white, there are plenty of products from plenty of manufactures, all of which we use either because we want to or have to. I assume most, if not all, FreeBSD advocates realize this and realize there is plenty of room for healthy competition between all operating systems and all applications. The question is: are all other advocates playing by the same rules? I really didn't mean to offend anyone by pointing out the site was done in FrontPage (I don't care for FrontPage myself, but then again, I used another MS product for my web design: notepad :) ). Kelly ~kbyanc@posi.net~ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve - http://www.freebsd.org/ Join Team FreeBSD - http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD > -----Original Message----- > From: Ladavac Marino [mailto:mladavac@metropolitan.at] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:25 AM > To: 'junkmale@xtra.co.nz'; Kelly Yancey > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: RE: Using MS on FreeBSD sites > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Langille [SMTP:junkmale@xtra.co.nz] > > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 9:50 AM > > To: Kelly Yancey > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Using MS on FreeBSD sites > > > > Another point: I write Windows applications for a living. > [ML] > > And for the real kicker: I use FrontPage 98 which means I use Windows > > on > > my desktop. Does that bother you? What should we do about that? > [ML] You should be damned to writing Windows applications for a > living :) > > Now, seriously, who cares what do you use to build the Diary? > Man, use whatever works for you, be pragmatic. And FrontPage editor > definitely beats vi or emacs for HTML, especially tables. Fine tuning > is still best done in a non-WYSIWYG editor. > > > best wishes > [ML] Same here, > /Marino > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 7:54:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from OAAI.COM (ns1.oaai.com [142.148.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B47B15159 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:54:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maury@OAAI.COM) Received: from sasquatch (sasquatch.oaai.com [142.148.106.72]) by OAAI.COM (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04453 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:56:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from maury) Message-Id: <199906281456.KAA04453@OAAI.COM> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ] In-Reply-To: <67710.930334288@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 25, 99 11:11:28 am Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:01:42 -0400 From: Maury Markowitz X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You've obviously never installed a third party driver under Windows. It doesn't even have to be thrid party, DirectX causes no end of grief for me. I have a game a friend loaned me that wanted DX3. I already had DX5, which is a full superset. Nevertheless the game required me to install 3 over top, so everything else stopped working. Installing 5 again make that game stop working. Uggg. > Usability engineering means that after you are done doing it, the > resulting code is usable. I don't call a driver that depends on > a specific version of a system component that's "upgraded" every > time something demands you install the latest version of Internet > Explorer particularly usable. Our NT installs came with an older version of IE, 3 I think. I was going to the MS page for something, but believe it or not I couldn't log into one of the pages without upgrading IE first. That alone makes me wonder. But anyway I downloaded IE 5 and tried to install it. It said I needed SP4. So I download that. It tells me it needs SP3. So I throw it all in the trash and empty trash. And then just try renaming a file to something it doesn't like. You type in the name and a dialog appears telling you it's bad. However it leaves the bad name on the file, with the editor up. This means you have to fix it before you can do *anything* else - like find out why the name is bad! Worse, for some reason if you hit return to close the dialog, that sometimes sends the return to the editor, which attempts to close it with the still-bad name, and the dialog comes back up. These are all examples of poor engineering. All it takes to remove these is attention to detail, a true want to do the right thing. If you think usability, you get usability for free, it simply infuses your products. Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 13:39:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774A414C19 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:39:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id QAA02877; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma002657; Mon, 28 Jun 99 16:38:51 -0400 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:38:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Linux vs. NT, take 2. To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In case you haven't seen it already: http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1015266,00.html SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 19: 0: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D289814BDC for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 27767 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jun 1999 02:07:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19990629020705.27766.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.31 by nwcst286 via web-mailer(M3.2.0.17) on Tue Jun 29 02:07:05 GMT 1999 Date: 28 Jun 99 19:07:05 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.2.0.17) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > It is possible to take his ability to make pilot errors away from > > > him, and avoid this type of complaint altogether. It's called > > > "usability engineering". > > = > > No, that's called "Windows." > = > You've obviously never installed a third party driver under Windows. > = > Usability engineering means that after you are done doing it, the > resulting code is usable. I don't call a driver that depends on > a specific version of a system component that's "upgraded" every > time something demands you install the latest version of Internet > Explorer particularly usable. > = Yes, if we don't recall that one, let remind you. Up until about 4 months ago M$ suggested people install IE 4.x to solve the Y2K problem. That is might under the heading of "usability engineering" but I would label plain stupid. It would require a 100MByte download to fix a 2 byte problem. > There is a difference between taking away options, and taking away > useless options. > = > For example, it should be impossible to install x86 FreeBSD without > writing a DOS partition table and a DOS-capable MBR, and it should > be impossible to install Alpha FreeBSD without a similar DEC-UNIX > compatible record. That the tools permit something like that > occuring at all is a commentary on the foibles of the tools. > = Wait, I disagree with you Terry. I beleive the issue one using a DOS-capable MBR is pretty well in-hand. The way the installation currently works you get a DOS-capable MBR bt default. = The install script goes out of it's way to say "don't do this", then "do you really want to do this?", "Are you really sure you want to do this?". If after these install steps the installer blows, then we really can't help them. I also note the "dangerously dedicated" sheet in the handbook. Have I missed something? --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 19:11:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst293.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst293.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8211114E06 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 7002 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Jun 1999 02:15:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19990629021538.7001.qmail@nwcst293.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.38 by nwcst293 via web-mailer(M3.2.0.17) on Tue Jun 29 02:15:38 GMT 1999 Date: 28 Jun 99 19:15:38 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Seth , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Cc: krooger@debian.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.2.0.17) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth wrote: > In case you haven't seen it already: > = > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1015266,00.html > = Look like they walked right into it. I stated to several people this would not be a good idea. Microsoft is good at setting people for things like this. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 19:47:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lambdamoo.to (00-60-67-24-29-83.bconnected.net [209.53.17.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B636F14FBE for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:47:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from krooger@debian.org) Received: from jwalther (helo=localhost) by lambdamoo.to with local-smtp (Exim 3.02 #1 (Debian)) id 10ynt7-0008TV-00; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:44:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:44:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Walther X-Sender: jwalther@lambdamoo.to To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Seth , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] In-Reply-To: <19990629021538.7001.qmail@nwcst293.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was tested, not the faster web servers. Jonathan Walther On 28 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Seth wrote: > > In case you haven't seen it already: > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1015266,00.html > > > Look like they walked right into it. > I stated to several people this would not be a good idea. > > Microsoft is good at setting people for things like > this. > > > --- > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 23:35: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21C014C87 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id QAA03682; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:04:55 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA04346; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:04:54 +0930 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:04:53 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Jonathan Walther Cc: Jesus Monroy , Seth , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 28 Jun 1999, Jonathan Walther wrote: > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > tested, not the faster web servers. BTW, unless I'm mistaken FreeBSD was also benchmarked in this test by Mike Smith et al. And we didn't do all that well - the reason seems to be that our SMP architecture is not as advanced as Linux, which in turn was shat on by NT and Solaris. This has spurred the current design work on improving our SMP architecture, and I'm confident that good things will come out of this now that the coffee has been smelled :-) I don't recall if uniprocessors were benchmarked as well - one would hope we'd perform somewhat better there. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 28 23:40:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fep1.post.tele.dk (fep1.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910FD14E10 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bigchief@aub.dk) Received: from chief ([194.239.157.161]) by fep1.post.tele.dk (InterMail v4.0 201-221) with SMTP id <19990629064030.GUME27563.fep1@chief>; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:40:30 +0200 Message-ID: <006c01bec1fa$449e1c70$126b330a@pdm.dk> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Klintrup?= To: "Jonathan Walther" , "Jesus Monroy" Cc: "Seth" , References: Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:40:24 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonathan Walther To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Seth ; Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 4:44 AM Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] > > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > tested, not the faster web servers. > > Jonathan Walther I think this test shows that theres still a lot to be done on linux .. it performed allright i guess, but theres still some way to go before it is mature enough for larger systems ... but it's getting there .. They DID test the faster servers like zeus (read it again .. :) and it stopped right where apache did (almost :), it was a kernel problem... It would have been fun to see how FreeBSD performed in this test, i'm not sure it would outperform NT, but I think that it would perform better than linux .. to some extend ... just my 5 cents /Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 1: 6:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51E814E94 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA13613 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:06:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:06:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Konrad Heuer To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Man Pages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting FreeBSD, but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. I think nearly every UNIX user or system administrator needs to look into the man pages from time to time. Beside my experience with FreeBSD I have some experience with different flavours of Linux, with Compaq/Digital UNIX, AIX, Solaris, Ultrix and SunOS. When looking for a man page about a subject I've a good chance to find it on a FreeBSD host, and furthermore, I've a good chance to find a readable and understandable man page there. As far as I've realised, this statement doesn't hold for all of the other systems ... Regards // // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _____= __=20 // Gesellschaft f=FCr wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __= / _ \ // Datenverarbeitung mbH G=D6ttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/= // / // Am Fa=DFberg, D-37077 G=D6ttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___= /____/=20 // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----= - // http://www.freebsd.org // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 1:11:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BF814E94 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greg@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg (gquinlan [194.81.0.56]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA90408 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:09:26 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <013801bec207$013a2520$380051c2@qmpgmc.ac.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: Subject: Something this amazing requires FBSD not NT! Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:11:35 +0100 Organization: Queen Mary's Hospital (SWLCT) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think it would be of interest to cutting edge FreeBSD buffin's. Alien Technology.... Hanger-52.... X-Files.... ??? Check-it out! http://www.accpc.com/tcapstore.htm They have got it wrong though instead of Win NT it should come with FreeBSD. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 3:15:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE02114BF4 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greg@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg (gquinlan [194.81.0.56]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA97853 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:13:00 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <019001bec218$43a14a40$380051c2@qmpgmc.ac.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: References: <006c01bec1fa$449e1c70$126b330a@pdm.dk> Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:15:07 +0100 Organization: Queen Mary's Hospital (SWLCT) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Many years ago when dealing with another x86 based OS I was employed to tune the OS's for clients. (which all centred around how much power the machine had and how many users the client had, or what they were doing, db etc) Back then you could install the OS out of the box... and make it run like a dog (so many people did this!) Or I could take a little time to increase network resources, read/write buffers, maximum processes, etc and make the same operating system perform like a F1 race car. The point I am trying to make is that; Despite the fact that Linux (FreeBSD) runs well on low specified hardware, Microfuss does not. Who out there in user land has a machine as highly specked as the one used for testing without taking the time to tune it. Is it not reasonable to ask for a broad spectrum test rather than an extreme (to show what a farce the test was.) It is fair to say that while Micro-softness are a media machine, it can also argued that this is the only tactic left for them to stop the Linux (FreeBSD) media avalanche (of course they can't buy a Free-OS) It is highly flattering to think that the richest computer software company in the world should compare itself with FREE software..... I think that people should be laughing rather than getting angry..... Microfuzz is getting worried??? It is also fair to say that Micro-madness is guilty of manipulating data yet again, not going for independent tests (as they did in giga-net tests!) ... and from now on should be know as Micro-minded. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 5:33:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CB6F14C39 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jpurser@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 6376 invoked by alias); 29 Jun 1999 12:33:34 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 6364 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jun 1999 12:33:33 -0000 Received: from dialupb142.vncr.uswest.net (HELO spijpurser) (207.225.93.142) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 29 Jun 1999 12:33:33 -0000 Message-ID: <002801bec22b$6fe34460$833dfea9@spijpurser> Reply-To: "John Purser" From: "John Purser" To: References: Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:32:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If we're going to look at their relative performances as ratios then lets look at the ratio of their costs! Anybody know the current cost of NT with unlimited user licenses? John Purser ----- Original Message ----- From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathan Walther Cc: Jesus Monroy ; Seth ; Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] > On Mon, 28 Jun 1999, Jonathan Walther wrote: > > > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > > tested, not the faster web servers. > > BTW, unless I'm mistaken FreeBSD was also benchmarked in this test by Mike > Smith et al. And we didn't do all that well - the reason seems to be that our > SMP architecture is not as advanced as Linux, which in turn was shat on by NT > and Solaris. This has spurred the current design work on improving our SMP > architecture, and I'm confident that good things will come out of this now > that the coffee has been smelled :-) > > I don't recall if uniprocessors were benchmarked as well - one would hope we'd > perform somewhat better there. > > Kris > > ----- > "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 5:51:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A232D14EAB for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:54:16 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761796B1@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: 'John Purser' , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:47:33 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: John Purser [SMTP:jpurser@uswest.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 2:32 PM > To: advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] > > If we're going to look at their relative performances as ratios then > lets > look at the ratio of their costs! Anybody know the current cost of NT > with > unlimited user licenses? > [ML] Peanuts. Even compared to the electricity bill that will accummulate over the lifetime of the machine where it runs. /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 7:13:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from OAAI.COM (ns1.oaai.com [142.148.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1489314E12 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maury@OAAI.COM) Received: from sasquatch (sasquatch.oaai.com [142.148.106.72]) by OAAI.COM (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06001 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:15:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from maury) Message-Id: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:20:52 -0400 From: Maury Markowitz X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting FreeBSD, > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. Sorry about another newbie Q here, but how do I suck them into a readble text file? Is there something that will read them and spit out RTF or even just plain text? Or is there an easy grep I can do on them? Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 7:29:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C0B414E12 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:29:23 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id NHL6LZB0; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:20:23 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 10yyt4-0005iw-00; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:29:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:29:26 +0100 To: Maury Markowitz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages Message-Id: <19990629152925.A21978@palmerharvey.co.uk> References: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM>; from Maury Markowitz on Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 10:20:52AM -0400 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 10:20:52AM -0400, Maury Markowitz wrote: > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting > FreeBSD, > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > Sorry about another newbie Q here, but how do I suck them into a > readble text file? Is there something that will read them and spit > out RTF or even just plain text? Or is there an easy grep I can do > on them? Generally, with a man page you need to do: % man ls | col -b > textfile The col -b will strip out most of the stuff that's confusing. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "It's amazing how much you miss -good- Unix command line tools after you get used to Linux and the GNU ones. How Unix vendors can ship ancient shells with no job control and no cursor editing by default and still wonder why people buy NT is beyond me." -- Alan Cox -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 8:55:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46C415013 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA01696; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:55:40 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3778E7A7.1F548BE@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:35:03 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Walther , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Walther wrote: > > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > tested, not the faster web servers. Err... you should take a few pills of reality. The distinction between RedHat and linux distributions in general, the lack of "Linux bigwigs", the fact that Apache was used instead of other servers only affects the Linux community, which is not likely to change it's mind in first place. And the fact that Mindcraft is still involved doesn't taint the results anymore than the fact that Microsoft is involved, giving the steps taken to insure a fair process (quote me one non-Linux source saying the results a dubious!). This has a HUGE impact against Linux. And even an impact against other open source operating systems. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Win 98 source code? Eight monkeys, five minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 12:46:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1BD514F60 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:46:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pf6s02a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.210.247] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 10z3q2-0002vn-00; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:46:39 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id UAA00390; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:42:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:42:49 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Maury Markowitz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages Message-ID: <19990629204249.B253@marder-1> References: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM>; from Maury Markowitz on Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 10:20:52AM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 10:20:52AM -0400, Maury Markowitz wrote: > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man= =20 > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting =20 > FreeBSD, > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. >=20 > Sorry about another newbie Q here, but how do I suck them into a =20 > readble text file? Is there something that will read them and spit =20 > out RTF or even just plain text? Or is there an easy grep I can do =20 > on them? >=20 To print them try: man | /usr/bin/pr -t -F -o8 | lpr The ``-o8'' shifts the text to the right 8 character spaces. It's not necessary, but it gives you a left hand margin if you wish to punch the printouts for a ring binder. If you redirect this to a file instead of piping to lpr you will see something like: S^HSY^HYN^HNO^HOP^HPS^HSI^HIS^HS for headings etc, which are the bold chars (backspacing and printing twice) so use this to get a text file: man | /usr/bin/pr -F -t | sed 's/.=08//g' > where ``^H'' is typed as Ctrl-V Ctrl-H. HTH > Maury >=20 >=20 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >=20 --=20 FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 12:58:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF0B14C1C for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pf6s02a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.210.247] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10z415-0005aI-00; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:58:03 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id UAA00448; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:54:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:54:13 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Maury Markowitz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages Message-ID: <19990629205413.D253@marder-1> References: <199906291415.KAA06001@OAAI.COM> <19990629204249.B253@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990629204249.B253@marder-1>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 08:42:49PM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 08:42:49PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > man | /usr/bin/pr -F -t | sed 's///g' > > Oops, that should appear as 's/.^H//g' (I'm using vi, and typed it as Ctrl-V Ctrl-H so it backspaced over the ``.'' in the message). > where ``^H'' is typed as Ctrl-V Ctrl-H. > > HTH > > > Maury > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 13:11:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC41514CAC for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11844; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:11:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd011782; Tue Jun 29 13:11:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24171; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:11:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906292011.NAA24171@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]] To: jesus.monroy@usa.net (Jesus Monroy) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:11:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990629020705.27766.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> from "Jesus Monroy" at Jun 28, 99 07:07:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > There is a difference between taking away options, and taking away > > useless options. > > > > For example, it should be impossible to install x86 FreeBSD without > > writing a DOS partition table and a DOS-capable MBR, and it should > > be impossible to install Alpha FreeBSD without a similar DEC-UNIX > > compatible record. That the tools permit something like that > > occuring at all is a commentary on the foibles of the tools. > > Wait, I disagree with you Terry. I beleive the issue > one using a DOS-capable MBR is pretty well in-hand. > The way the installation currently works you get > a DOS-capable MBR bt default. > > The install script goes out of it's way to say > "don't do this", then "do you really want to do this?", > "Are you really sure you want to do this?". > > If after these install steps the installer blows, > then we really can't help them. Which is really the whole point. Part of usability is supportability. I am vehemently against desktop themese for this reason; I keep imagining the following nightmare, over and over: U: So why is it doing the wrong thing when it boots? S: Because you have a bad boot configuration file; if we delete it, everything should be OK. U: How do I do that? S: Well, first double-click the little computer icon... U: I don't have a little computer icon. S: What icon do you click to get at the icon you click to get at your printer settings? U: Barney. S: OK, double-click "Barney"... U: OK. S: Now locate the file named "boot-config.txt" U: I don't have one. S: You have to have one, given the symptoms you describe. U: Wait; I have two "boot-config" files, is one of them it? S: I don't know. Click the "View" menu, and select "Preferences" U: OK. S: What's the "hide known file extensions" checkbox setting? U: It says "Yes, I want to confuse the hell out of support people and myself, if at all possible". S: Uncheck that checkbox, and click "OK". U: OK. Now I have a "boot-config.bak" and a "boot-config.txt". S: OK, drag the "boot-config.txt" over to the trash can icon. U: I don't have a trash can icon. S: S: Black hole? U: No. S: Paper shreader? U: No. S: Recycle bin? U: No. S: Beaker of acid? U: Yes. S: Drag it over to that... U: OK. It's printing... S: ... And on and on... The only way you prevent this sort of crap is by not enabling it in the first place. If you have an option that can result in the system not working, don't offer it to the user. A friend of mine recent upgraded from 2.something release to 3.something release. This is a UNIX engineer who has decases of computer experience under his belt. It took him, literally, 3 tries and about 6 hours to do this supposedly simple task. This was primarily the fault of the boot block changes, the fact that by default, the "obviously correct action" in a number of areas was the wrongest possible thing you could do (luckily, he had tape backups of his /usr -- I told you he had experience), and the /etc reorganization being poorly supported on upgrade. If a UNIX engineer has this sort of trouble, then an ordinary mortal who is not even UNIX literate is going to have a much worse time of it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 13:17:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0731614E17 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08673; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:17:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd008586; Tue Jun 29 13:17:07 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24314; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:16:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906292016.NAA24314@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] To: krooger@debian.org (Jonathan Walther) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:16:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jesus.monroy@usa.net, seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jonathan Walther" at Jun 28, 99 07:44:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > tested, not the faster web servers. You didn't read this part, apparently: | For instance, the open-source community objected to Mindcraft's | use of the Apache Web server in its benchmarks, claiming that | using Zeus, a Web server available commercially from Zeus | Technology, would improve results. We tested Zeus on Linux and | found its performance peaked almost exactly where Apache's did. | | Working with Red Hat programmer Zach Brown, we traced the | problem back to the lack of a multithreaded IP stack in the Linux | networking subsystem, which caused a performance plateau in | the operating system, not in the Web server. > > Look like they walked right into it. > > I stated to several people this would not be a good idea. Talk to Mike Smith. FreeBSD's numbers are worse than Linux's. Maybe this will finally crack the "we fear change" nut open to the point that people can start working on cranking up the performance without fear of reprisals... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 13:23:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4CD14D73 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id QAA17106; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma016961; Tue, 29 Jun 99 16:23:01 -0400 Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:22:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] In-reply-to: <199906292016.NAA24314@usr08.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jonathan Walther , jesus.monroy@usa.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Talk to Mike Smith. FreeBSD's numbers are worse than Linux's. > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark results (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that benchmarks aren't good than I am that my application performance suffers relative to other platforms. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 13:31:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884C814E54 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45724; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Seth Cc: Terry Lambert , Jonathan Walther , jesus.monroy@usa.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:22:57 EDT." Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:29:51 -0700 Message-ID: <45720.930688191@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world > application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark results > (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that benchmarks Plenty. Netbench is notorious for not actually testing the load balancing abilities or performance degradation curve as the number of users increases, both important factors in "real life" testing. Unfortunately, real-life testing is not easily quantified and so we have netbench instead. Until somebody writes something better, that will be the benchmark to jury-rig your responses for in order to come out ahead on benchmark tests. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 13:46:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.ham.muohio.edu (dragon.ham.muohio.edu [134.53.147.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F6D150F7 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:45:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by dragon.ham.muohio.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21789; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:49:00 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: dragon.ham.muohio.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:48:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Howard X-Sender: howardjp@dragon.ham.muohio.edu To: Mark Ovens Cc: Maury Markowitz , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages In-Reply-To: <19990629204249.B253@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > To print them try: > > man | /usr/bin/pr -t -F -o8 | lpr Why not just purchase the O'Reilly versions? I had heard they were out of print but they can still be found in many stores. I do realize they are out of date, how about a new printing with the latest FreeBSD manpages? Would O'Reilly do it? What about Walnut Creek? I'd buy them. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 14: 9:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6C814EB5 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA58536; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:09:23 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Message-ID: <19990629140923.C40465@001101.zer0.org> References: <45720.930688191@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <45720.930688191@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 01:29:51PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 01:29:51PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world > > application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark results > > (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that benchmarks > > Plenty. Netbench is notorious for not actually testing the load > balancing abilities or performance degradation curve as the number of > users increases, both important factors in "real life" testing. Another factor that is not taken into account in any benchmark is general OS stability. NT may be able to kick our butts in some application performance tests, but can they continue to deliver that performance for a year without administrative intervention? I doubt that most NT boxen are anywhere near that stable. Uptime and platform stability is as important as performance. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "Software is like sex; it's better mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when it's free." -- Linus Torvalds http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 14:27:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B4D14BCD for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23142; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:27:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd023069; Tue Jun 29 14:26:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27977; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:26:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906292126.OAA27977@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] To: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org (Seth) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:26:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, krooger@debian.org, jesus.monroy@usa.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Seth" at Jun 29, 99 04:22:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Talk to Mike Smith. FreeBSD's numbers are worse than Linux's. > > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world > application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark results > (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that benchmarks > aren't good than I am that my application performance suffers relative to > other platforms. That particular test is a packet capture of real world traffic, played back through the actual SAMBA code that would have been invoked by the traffic, and the playback rate determining the benchmark result. So for that particular test, the answer is "no, there's no validity to the claim that the benchmark is not representative of a real world load or real world expected results". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 14:35: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F8F14EDB for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA12807; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA27817; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:34:03 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA09748; Tue, 29 Jun 99 14:33:59 PDT Message-Id: <37793BC7.FAB4D452@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:33:59 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Jonathan Walther , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] References: <3778E7A7.1F548BE@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Jonathan Walther wrote: > > > > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated. > > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed the > > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fact > > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > > tested, not the faster web servers. > > Err... you should take a few pills of reality. > > The distinction between RedHat and linux distributions in general, > the lack of "Linux bigwigs", the fact that Apache was used instead > of other servers only affects the Linux community, which is not > likely to change it's mind in first place. And the fact that > Mindcraft is still involved doesn't taint the results anymore than > the fact that Microsoft is involved, giving the steps taken to > insure a fair process (quote me one non-Linux source saying the > results a dubious!). > > This has a HUGE impact against Linux. And even an impact against > other open source operating systems. But most of the credible sources have been pointing out Linux faired much better than in the original MindCraft tests, and that the experimental Linux 2.3 kernel showed promise of being in the ballpark with NT once again. The capsule review in Network World pointed out this benchmark gave the Linux developers some valuable performance data on WHERE to improve their systems. It also pointed out that Solaris x86 whups NT pretty handily without resorting to stupid stunts like putting the guts of the FTP and HTTP servers into the kernel. From the preliminary results reported here the other day, we have even further to go to rise to these reported performance levels. Anyone who is surprised by that hasn't been following the development of NT, Solaris, or Linux very closely. The world is beginning to accept that SMP servers are a good idea, and SMP is becoming "where it's at" in the world of servers. If our SMP support lags far behind, we will NOT be "where it's at" pretty quickly. So, kudos and applause to the group working on better SMP scalability. You guys are the future of FreeBSD. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 14:58:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4031B1518A for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) id JAA11245; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:16:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:16:40 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jonathan Walther , Jesus Monroy , Seth , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] Message-ID: <19990629091640.A10948@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 04:04:53PM +0930 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 04:04:53PM +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > BTW, unless I'm mistaken FreeBSD was also benchmarked in this test by Mike > Smith et al. Could Mike Smith (or someone else involved in the testing) please confirm or deny this? A comment from Mike last week certainly seemed to imply that FreeBSD was involved in these tests, but I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the articles I've read about it. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 29 15: 7:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA75151F6 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09870; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:07:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd009779; Tue Jun 29 15:07:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29642; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:07:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906292207.PAA29642@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.] To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:07:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, tlambert@primenet.com, krooger@debian.org, jesus.monroy@usa.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <45720.930688191@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 29, 99 01:29:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world > > application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark results > > (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that benchmarks > > Plenty. Netbench is notorious for not actually testing the load > balancing abilities or performance degradation curve as the number of > users increases, both important factors in "real life" testing. > Unfortunately, real-life testing is not easily quantified and so we > have netbench instead. Until somebody writes something better, that > will be the benchmark to jury-rig your responses for in order to come > out ahead on benchmark tests. :-) The difference between the standalone test that Julian was using and the netbench test is not insignificant. However, even the Netbench test is somewhat representative, in that it uses actual code stripped out of Lotus Notes, Word Perfect, and other real applications to create the client load. The thing that is unrealistic about netbench is that it performs its operations back to back, so instead of "create a file", "edit a long time", "save the edits", it becomes "create a file", "save the edits". If anything, this is a bias *in favor* of large data caches, and would be pro-FreeBSD. There are a number of obvious fixes one could make to SAMBA to ensure that the SAMBA numbers were much better; I ran into this same benchmark (and the much tougher LANPERF benchmark, which _does_ similate the "edit a long time" delay) when working on the NetWare for UNIX server product. There are also a number of obvious changes to FreeBSD that would speed up the benchmark, as well. Here are some of them: 1) SAMBA should cache the first 9k of any executable file; the clients loader behaviour for executable files is repetitive and non-sequential during the first 9k. Caching the first 9k will have the following effects: A) The data will be there for the repetitive non-sequential requests when the requests are made B) The requests, since they will result in cache hits, will not, by their non-sequential nature, defeat sequential access detection based read-ahead. 2) FreeBSD should export an API that does SMB globbing in the kernel. This will mean that only data matching the pattern need be pushed over the user/kernel boundary, which will reduce the amount of data pushed by a directory iteration by one half (directory iteration is done seperately for files and directories by the clients). SAMBA must be modified to utilize this interface. 3) SMB clients, by the nature of the NETBIOS calls that a client must initiate to get data, are in fact a combination of other calls and a "stat" in almost all cases. There are several things you can do about this: A) When FreeBSD is doing a directory iteration, it should pre-fault the inode of each file returned during the iteration (perhaps using the API in #2, above), in the expectation that the stat information will be requested as well. B) The API in #2, above, should probably return the stat information, as well as merely the file name. C) It is reasonable to want to modify or provide aternative versions of the open, close, and other calls that return stat information, as well. 4) SMB clients will do case insensitive lookups for files that they want to execute or open. The SAMBA code must implement case insensitivity in user space code. In the case of a "miss" (e.g. a case mismatch on the stored vs. the requested file name), the SAMBA code must iterate the directory (very expensive) in order to select the matching file name. This implies that there would be a significant benefit from performing the case insensitive lookup in the kernel. This is _not_ a variant of #2, above, since it means alternate interfaces for state, open, unlink, rename, and other file-name taking calls. These changes alone would result in a significant performance increase for SAMBA clients. More advanced changes would be useful as well. For example, if you examine the locality model for SMB using programs, you conclude that the following would also be useful: 5) A method for triggering read-ahead behaviour from user space to usefully trade on the fact that the nature of the client/server communication is request/response. The read-into-cache could be occurring while the client is receiving and acting on the data sent it, prior to the next request. The trigger would be pulled after the send to the client, prior to the engine sleeps waiting for more client requests. As a suggestion, a read of zero bytes would make a useful read-ahead trigger. 6) Add to the kernel based globbing a negative hit cache based on pattern indices instead of actual strings, per the standard negative hit directory entry lookup cache. 7) Add to the case insensitve searches a hit lookaside cache. This could be as simple as placing the looked up name, as well as the matching name, into the directory entry lookup cache. 8) WINDOWS clients are well known to search many locations for a file, frequently for many different files in a single program instance. By implementing predictive lookaside cacheing, it should be possible to satisfy the first failing request with the sixth (succesful) request predicted for the file, based on past searches of a similar nature. This is functually similar to an inversion of the FreeBSD use of /usr/compat/. 9) Clearly, a lot of time is wasted in translating SMB locks in and out. This is both because SMB locks are non-coelesced, by definition, resulting in a redundant UNIX "shadow" being maintained for interoperability, and because locks at negative and/or "outrageous" file offsets are often used by programs, such as Excel and Word, to implement internal semaphores. This list is hardly exhaustive, but you should get the idea... a few simple changes (except the globbing and case insensitivity changes, since FreeBSD's lookup API is incapable of forwarding POSIX namespace escapes more than one path component deep because of the way its currentl [mis]written and the locking, due to the architectural deficiencies in the locking code not permitting non-coelescing locks via a parameter change), probably capable of being encapsulated in a single kernel module, would result in a significant performance improvement, with no other changes. Now if you wanted to go "whole hog", you would probably turn around SMB reads and writes seperately from all other SMB operations, and load a kernel module that knew about SMB reads and writes in order to do the dirty work... this would resolve the fact that readfile() is useless for SMB (and any other protocol that depends on data object size and/or a canonical wire format different from the cannonical storage format, e.g. POP3, IMAP4, SMTP, ACAP, LDAP, etc.). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 0: 2: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD59D14D1E for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15881; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:41:01 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA27013; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:36:05 +0300 (IDT) X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:36:05 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Jamie Howard Cc: Mark Ovens , Maury Markowitz , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Man Pages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Jamie Howard wrote: > On Tue, 29 Jun 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > To print them try: > > > > man | /usr/bin/pr -t -F -o8 | lpr > > Why not just purchase the O'Reilly versions? I had heard they were out of > print but they can still be found in many stores. > > I do realize they are out of date, how about a new printing with the > latest FreeBSD manpages? Would O'Reilly do it? What about Walnut Creek? > > I'd buy them. :) > > Jamie Well, if you can print PostScript, you'll have much better output by just using: man -t | lpr > > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2: 3:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay04.netaddress.usa.net (relay04.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CAF114D47 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:03:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 24040 invoked from network); 30 Jun 1999 09:03:04 -0000 Received: from www0h.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.37) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 1999 09:03:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 5468 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 09:03:03 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630090303.5467.qmail@www0h.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.37 by www0h via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 09:03:03 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 02:03:03 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Jonathan Walther , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] Cc: Seth , advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I beg to inform you that this is a dillusion on your part. Many mangers will not start to take the = M$ marketing push seriously. Regardless of = the test status and (non)involved entities. Jonathan Walther wrote: > = > The only damage was to Redhat. None of the Linux bigwigs participated.= > Linus, Alan Cox, Jeremy Alison... none of them participated or endorsed= the > benchmarks. Linux is pulling through this one pretty well. And the fa= ct > that Mindcraft is still involved taints all results in the eyes of the > journalistic community. As well as the fact that Apache was what was > tested, not the faster web servers. > = > Jonathan Walther > = > On 28 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > Seth wrote: > > > In case you haven't seen it already: > > > = > > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1015266,00.html > > > = > > Look like they walked right into it. > > I stated to several people this would not be a good idea. > > = > > Microsoft is good at setting people for things like > > this. > > = > > = > > --- > > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = > > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml > > = > > = > > = > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/= ?N=3D1 > > = --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:28: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C22114E0C for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:27:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 5965 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 09:28:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630092816.5964.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.21 by nwcst276 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 09:28:16 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 02:28:16 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Konrad Heuer wrote: > = > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man= > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting = > FreeBSD, > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > = Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where incorrect. Where do you want to go today? --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:32:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 43ABD150BC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 8975 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 09:40:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630094027.8974.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.33 by nwcst288 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 09:40:27 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 02:40:27 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: John Purser , Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John Purser" wrote: > If we're going to look at their relative performances as ratios then > lets > look at the ratio of their costs! Anybody know the current cost of NT = > with > unlimited user licenses? > = This point is waste of time. Please save it for the LINUX kids. I for one consider this comment kindeling material. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:40:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D0914C04 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA01159; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:40:31 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990630194026.02734@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:40:26 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages] References: <19990630092816.5964.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990630092816.5964.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting > > FreeBSD, > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > incorrect. For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract from the point that Konrad is making. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:45:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0j.netaddress.usa.net (www0j.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56A6314C4B for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 10407 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 09:45:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630094546.10406.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.39 by www0j via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 09:45:46 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 02:45:46 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]] Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > There is a difference between taking away options, and taking away > > > useless options. > > > = > > > For example, it should be impossible to install x86 FreeBSD without= > > > writing a DOS partition table and a DOS-capable MBR, and it should > > > be impossible to install Alpha FreeBSD without a similar DEC-UNIX > > > compatible record. That the tools permit something like that > > > occuring at all is a commentary on the foibles of the tools. > > > > Wait, I disagree with you Terry. I beleive the issue > > one using a DOS-capable MBR is pretty well in-hand. > > The way the installation currently works you get > > a DOS-capable MBR bt default. = > > = >...........[MAJOR SNIP].............. > = > A friend of mine recent upgraded from 2.something release to > 3.something release. This is a UNIX engineer who has decases of > computer experience under his belt. It took him, literally, 3 > tries and about 6 hours to do this supposedly simple task. This > was primarily the fault of the boot block changes, the fact that > by default, the "obviously correct action" in a number of areas > was the wrongest possible thing you could do (luckily, he had > tape backups of his /usr -- I told you he had experience), and > the /etc reorganization being poorly supported on upgrade. > = > If a UNIX engineer has this sort of trouble, then an ordinary > mortal who is not even UNIX literate is going to have a much worse > time of it. > = I see your point, but no solution. I know the = boot block is badly documented. As a matter of fact, the documentation in FreeBSD is incorrect, or at least the = notes. May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run down these daemons I just don't have the energy for a fight like that. = In any case, I move camps, IF you can present a decent alternative. Never mind the political battle, if = you have a worthy idea, I will at least read (listen). If I agree, you'll get my support and voice. (if you want) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:55:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04F2315259 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 4410 invoked from network); 30 Jun 1999 09:55:09 -0000 Received: from nw173.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.73) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 1999 09:55:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 1599 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 09:55:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630095505.1598.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.73 by nw173 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 09:55:05 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 02:55:05 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Gregory Sutter , Jordan K.Hubbard Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, krooger@debian.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Tue, Jun 29, 1999 at 01:29:51PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Is there any validity to the discussion on -hackers that real-world= > > > application performance doesn't corroborate the poor benchmark = > > > results > > > (as far as FreeBSD is concerned)? I'm less concerned that = > > > benchmarks > > = > > Plenty. Netbench is notorious for not actually testing the load > > balancing abilities or performance degradation curve as the number of= > > users increases, both important factors in "real life" testing. > = > Another factor that is not taken into account in any benchmark is > general OS stability. NT may be able to kick our butts in some > application performance tests, but can they continue to deliver that > performance for a year without administrative intervention? I > doubt that most NT boxen are anywhere near that stable. Uptime > and platform stability is as important as performance. > = WRONG! This factor will not be taken into account by buying managers. I've worked with several companies on similar issues only = to draw a blank. One company for instance found a bug in a competitors unit. The bug manifested itself when a user sent 1024 bytes through the buffer, not 1023 nor 1025, "1024 bytes"! The bug would the lose the page in the buffer, never to be seen from again. The company then, after getting it's hands on the competitors mailing list sent everyone a one sheet page explaining the bug. The even went as far as send a diskette with a program to reproduce the bug. The results was less that 5% were interested in something different. Which amounted to hitting the red button on the front of the unit every day. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 2:58:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp (nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp [131.112.148.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC1915259 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 02:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp) Received: from localhost (neon.enveng.titech.ac.jp [131.112.148.211]) by nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06423; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:51:22 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp) To: sue@welearn.com.au Cc: jesus.monroy@usa.net, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages] In-Reply-To: <19990630194026.02734@welearn.com.au> References: <19990630092816.5964.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net> <19990630194026.02734@welearn.com.au> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94b37 on Emacs 19.34 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990630190131N.masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:01:31 +0900 From: UEBAYASHI Masao X-Dispatcher: imput version 990623(IM117) Lines: 22 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > incorrect. > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > from the point that Konrad is making. For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first word ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of science for it, but I cannot remember it now... Masao --- At last my signature can be internationalized! LOL |- _|_ -|- -|- /|\ /|\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 3: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 73C901549B for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 2967 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 10:03:55 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630100355.2966.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.57 by nwcst312 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 10:03:55 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 03:03:55 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] Cc: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > = > > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are > > > the man > > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting = > > > FreeBSD, > > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > > = > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > incorrect. > = > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > from the point that Konrad is making. > = > = Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references and missing descriptions. = Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on correct. So think this through before you popoff.) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 3:28:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A5E153DC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA01279; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:28:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990630202812.34161@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:28:12 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: UEBAYASHI Masao Cc: jesus.monroy@usa.net, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages] References: <19990630092816.5964.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net> <19990630194026.02734@welearn.com.au> <19990630190131N.masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990630190131N.masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp>; from UEBAYASHI Masao on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > incorrect. > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first word > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged by these two people, that's all. > > Masao > > --- > At last my signature can be internationalized! LOL > > |- > _|_ > > -|- -|- > /|\ /|\ Hey, that's neat! :-) -- Regards, ___ / ___ / \ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 3:29:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33A214D9A for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:32:32 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761796BD@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: 'Jesus Monroy' , John Purser , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:26:36 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: Jesus Monroy [SMTP:jesus.monroy@usa.net] > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:40 AM > To: John Purser; advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] > > "John Purser" wrote: > > If we're going to look at their relative performances as ratios then > > lets > > look at the ratio of their costs! Anybody know the current cost of > NT > > with > > unlimited user licenses? > > > This point is waste of time. Please save it for the LINUX kids. > I for one consider this comment kindeling material. [ML] The sky must be falling--I'm in agreement with Jesus concerning this comparison. /Marino > --- > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at > http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 3:56:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 96C21154AF for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 03:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 16125 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 11:02:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630110231.16124.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.35 by nwcst290 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 11:02:31 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 04:02:31 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Sue Blake , UEBAYASHI Masao Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] Cc: jesus.monroy@usa.net, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > incorrect. > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract= > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > = > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first word > > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > = > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... > = > No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged by > these two people, that's all. > = There is nothing to judge here. Plainly documents are incorrect and you are talking out your shoes (I'm trying to be nice.). --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 4: 0:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 657E9154AF for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:00:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 7124 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 11:00:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630110033.7123.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.57 by nwcst312 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 11:00:32 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 04:00:32 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Ladavac Marino , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [RE: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]]] Cc: krooger@debian.org, jkh@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ladavac Marino wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jesus Monroy [SMTP:jesus.monroy@usa.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:40 AM > > To: John Purser; advocacy@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] > > = > > "John Purser" wrote: > > > If we're going to look at their relative performances as ratios the= n > > > lets > > > look at the ratio of their costs! Anybody know the current cost of= > > NT = > > > with > > > unlimited user licenses? > > > = > > This point is waste of time. Please save it for the LINUX kids. > > I for one consider this comment kindeling material. > [ML] The sky must be falling--I'm in agreement with Jesus > concerning this comparison. > = HAHAHA<>, I love it... Please note this person had no help whatsoever from jordan. (Sorry Jordan. :^\ ) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 4:15:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC19215006 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:15:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-143-157.s30.as2.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.157]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id HAA10597; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906301115.HAA10597@smtp4.erols.com> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990630100355.2966.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:15:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Konrad Heuer , Sue Blake Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30-Jun-99 Jesus Monroy wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: >> > Konrad Heuer wrote: >> > > >> > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are >> > > the man >> > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting >> > > FreeBSD, >> > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. >> > > >> > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% >> > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where >> > incorrect. >> >> For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract >> from the point that Konrad is making. >> >> > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > and missing descriptions. > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) Relatively speaking they are a heck of a lot better than manpagse for some commercial Unices. They may not be perfect, but they're a heck of a lot closer.. and that was the original poster's point, which your survey has nothing to do with. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 4:21:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C466414BB8 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA17229; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:19:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:19:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Konrad Heuer To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Sue Blake , UEBAYASHI Masao , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] In-Reply-To: <19990630110231.16124.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > > incorrect. > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > >=20 > > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first word > > > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > >=20 > > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > > > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... > >=20 > > No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged by > > these two people, that's all. > >=20 > There is nothing to judge here. Plainly documents are incorrect > and you are talking out your shoes (I'm trying to be nice.). Still I feel very comfortable with my statement about the FreeBSD man pages. I don't expect them to be 100% perfect. Would be nice, of course, but I don't claim that. If I would claim it I had to be ready to do the job (and I unfortunately don't have the time). Let's not forget that most of the work on FreeBSD is done by volunteers. Regards // // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _____= __=20 // Gesellschaft f=FCr wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __= / _ \ // Datenverarbeitung mbH G=D6ttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/= // / // Am Fa=DFberg, D-37077 G=D6ttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___= /____/=20 // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----= - // http://www.freebsd.org // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 4:29:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B955214C91 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 04:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id VAA01504; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:29:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990630212942.07725@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:29:42 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Jesus Monroy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] References: <19990630110231.16124.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990630110231.16124.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 04:02:31AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 04:02:31AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > > incorrect. > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first word > > > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > > > > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > > > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... > > > > No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged by > > these two people, that's all. > > > There is nothing to judge here. Plainly documents are incorrect > and you are talking out your shoes (I'm trying to be nice.). No you're not, Honey, but that's fine, I know you can't help it and I certainly won't hold it against you. You must be short on sleep like you were the other day. I hope it gets better for you soon, and that the others will treat you kindly, no matter what you might say. Now it seems to be 4AM in your part of the world so I don't want to keep you up any longer. Sweet dreams, Dear! :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 5:17:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from trickster.net (trickster.net [199.1.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C8B14BCE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 05:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from travis@trickster.net) Received: from localhost (travis@localhost) by trickster.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24697 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:17:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Travis Ruthenburg To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Rob Malda mentions FreeBSD in Wired interview Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In a recent Wired News interview with Rob Malda about the acquisition of slashdot by andover.net FreeBSD was specifically mentioned. From page 2 of the interview : Wired News : Do you plan to make any changes? Malda: Malda: There's a lot of areas we'd like to spend more time on, focus more on. We can expand certain topics we don't cover as well as we'd like to. As far as fundamentally what we're covering, we're not going to change that. We'd like to do more original content. We'd like to focus more on the FreeBSD stuff. We'd like to do more of the political stuff. We cover a lot of these topics and we just barely gloss over them. [other stuff omitted] Travis Ruthenburg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 6:14:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2052C14E82 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA13321; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma012837; Wed, 30 Jun 99 09:13:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:13:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]] In-reply-to: <19990630094546.10406.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net> To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > I see your point, but no solution. I know the > boot block is badly documented. As a matter of fact, > the documentation in FreeBSD is incorrect, or at least the > notes. > > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > a fight like that. So what you're saying is the following: "I see problems, but I'm not going to take the time to help fix them. Instead, I'll just keep complaining"? > In any case, I move camps, IF you can present a > decent alternative. Never mind the political battle, if > you have a worthy idea, I will at least read (listen). > If I agree, you'll get my support and voice. (if you want) And what exactly is your support and voice worth when it's not backed up by any sort of constructive action? SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 7:53:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nw171.netaddress.usa.net (nw171.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9ED5F14E0D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 15959 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 14:53:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630145327.15958.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.71 by nw171 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 14:53:27 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 07:53:27 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Konrad Heuer , Sue Blake X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > = > On 30-Jun-99 Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > >> > Konrad Heuer wrote: > >> > > = > >> > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are > >> > > the man > >> > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promotin= g = > >> > > FreeBSD, > >> > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > >> > > = > >> > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > >> > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > >> > incorrect. > >> = > >> For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > >> from the point that Konrad is making. > >> = > >> = > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > > and missing descriptions. > > = > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) > = > Relatively speaking they are a heck of a lot better than manpagse for > some > commercial Unices. They may not be perfect, but they're a heck of a lo= t > closer.. and that was the original poster's point, which your survey ha= s > nothing to do with. > = Well, as long as we are going to insert the foot, let's do it right. Thank you for following along folks in the game of "who's foot will be inserted first?" Let's start by quote the original contestant: "To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are the man pages. " The implicatation is that there are many good things about FreeBSD. (hmm. good so far). Second implication, so maybe we'll strech this a bit and say "of the 100 great things about FreeBSD, the man pages is one". (hmm, still sounds good.) Now from my end, 15% of the pages have been show to be incorrect. (hmm...) let us say error decrement between here and the top. Let's say this is at the bottom of the list, thereby making it the least correct. (hmm...) Conclusion: The weather man is better at predicting the the weather on 24 hour basis than the man pages are. Wow that sounds great now... doesn't it! Someone had me my umbrella, weatherman predicts brown rain in large clumpy balls. :^> (hammer away peabrain) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 7:59:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A477A14E0D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 22023 invoked from network); 30 Jun 1999 14:59:49 -0000 Received: from www0s.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.48) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 1999 14:59:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 5744 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 14:59:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630145945.5743.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.48 by www0s via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 14:59:45 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 07:59:45 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Konrad Heuer Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] Cc: Sue Blake , UEBAYASHI Masao , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Konrad Heuer wrote: > = > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not > > > > > detract > > > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > = > > > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first = > > > >word > > > > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > > > = > > > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > > > > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... > > > = > > > No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged= = > > > by > > > these two people, that's all. > > > = > > There is nothing to judge here. Plainly documents are incorrect > > and you are talking out your shoes (I'm trying to be nice.). > = > Still I feel very comfortable with my statement about the FreeBSD man > pages. I don't expect them to be 100% perfect. Would be nice, of course= , > but I don't claim that. If I would claim it I had to be ready to do the= > job (and I unfortunately don't have the time). Let's not forget that = > most > of the work on FreeBSD is done by volunteers. > = Okay, if you feel comfortable, I won't take that away from you, but please don't expect me to let you say we have great man pages in public. 'Cause I won't. A stiff shot of jack would be nice, but Jordan has advise me against drinking and emailing. (I still don't see how it make much of a differenc) Wait a minute, you got the time to annoy us with "gee the documentation is great", but no time for sending in spelling errors, typos, missing command line flags, = simple forgotten index. BTW, I do remember FreeBS work "is done by volunteers". I'm one of them. Please insert your foot somewhere else. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8: 4:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst323.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst323.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A4C9314E0D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 14326 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 15:04:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630150424.14325.qmail@nwcst323.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.68 by nwcst323 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 15:04:24 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 08:04:24 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Sue Blake , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 04:02:31AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 07:01:31PM +0900, UEBAYASHI Masao wrote: > > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not > > > > > detract > > > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > = > > > > For my studying English, I think the _trick_ is that the first = > > > > word > > > > ``incorrect'' can be read as two cases. > > > > = > > > > If it was really trick, there is more stricter term of logic of > > > > science for it, but I cannot remember it now... > > > = > > > No, I don't think it's any trick. Different things are being judged= = > > > by > > > these two people, that's all. > > > = > > There is nothing to judge here. Plainly documents are incorrect > > and you are talking out your shoes (I'm trying to be nice.). > = > No you're not, Honey, but that's fine, I know you can't help it and > I certainly won't hold it against you. You must be short on sleep like > you were the other day. I hope it gets better for you soon, and that > the others will treat you kindly, no matter what you might say. > = I am short on sleep, but not comments. And this one is not comming back. BTW, HONEY. Me love you long time, me so horny. You parlay. = > Now it seems to be 4AM in your part of the world so I don't want to > keep you up any longer. Sweet dreams, Dear! :-) > = Dreams were nice. Hope your having a nice day. Please let me know when you have an opinion about correct. Have a nice day. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8:12:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0i.netaddress.usa.net (www0i.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F47E14C4F for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 3659 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 15:12:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630151230.3658.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.38 by www0i via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 15:12:30 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 08:12:30 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Seth , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]] Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > I see your point, but no solution. I know the = > > boot block is badly documented. As a matter of fact, > > the documentation in FreeBSD is incorrect, or at least the = > > notes. > > = > > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > > a fight like that. = > = > = > So what you're saying is the following: "I see problems, = > but I'm not going > to take the time to help fix them. Instead, I'll just keep = > complaining"? > = No, wrongo. I report bugs and I fix bugs. I DON'T run down the morons that make them. = Should you have problems with this statement, my opinions are of record and can be found at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?12953 > > In any case, I move camps, IF you can present a > > decent alternative. Never mind the political battle, if = > > you have a worthy idea, I will at least read (listen). > > If I agree, you'll get my support and voice. (if you want) > = > And what exactly is your support and voice worth when it's not backed > up by any sort of constructive action? > = "when you assume you make an ass out of u and me", = Tony Randall, Odd Couple (TV show). Have a nice day. Thanks for playing. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8:12:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay03.netaddress.usa.net (relay03.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A1758153A9 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 16452 invoked from network); 30 Jun 1999 15:12:36 -0000 Received: from nw179.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.79) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 1999 15:12:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 15708 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 15:12:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630151236.15707.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.79 by nw179 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 15:12:36 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 08:12:36 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Seth Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]] Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > I see your point, but no solution. I know the = > > boot block is badly documented. As a matter of fact, > > the documentation in FreeBSD is incorrect, or at least the = > > notes. > > = > > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > > a fight like that. = > = > = > So what you're saying is the following: "I see problems, = > but I'm not going > to take the time to help fix them. Instead, I'll just keep = > complaining"? > = No, wrongo. I report bugs and I fix bugs. I DON'T run down the morons that make them. = Should you have problems with this statement, my opinions are of record and can be found at: http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?12953 > > In any case, I move camps, IF you can present a > > decent alternative. Never mind the political battle, if = > > you have a worthy idea, I will at least read (listen). > > If I agree, you'll get my support and voice. (if you want) > = > And what exactly is your support and voice worth when it's not backed > up by any sort of constructive action? > = "when you assume you make an ass out of u and me", = Tony Randall, Odd Couple (TV show). Have a nice day. Thanks for playing. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8:28:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D379814EEB for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA153771226; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:13:47 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:13:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Konrad Heuer , Sue Blake , UEBAYASHI Masao , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] In-Reply-To: <19990630145945.5743.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > BTW, I do remember FreeBS work "is done by volunteers". > I'm one of them. Please insert your foot somewhere else. With the exception that you don't do 'work' or anything with tangible value. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8:29:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A4114EEB for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA155511373; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:16:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:16:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Seth , Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]] In-Reply-To: <19990630151236.15707.qmail@nw179.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > "when you assume you make an ass out of u and me", > Tony Randall, Odd Couple (TV show). Corollary: When Jesus Monroy speaks he makes an ass out of himself. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 8:37:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34667153A9 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id LAA19012; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xmaa18175; Wed, 30 Jun 99 11:36:11 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:35:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]] In-reply-to: <19990630151230.3658.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net> To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Should you have problems with this statement, my opinions > are of record and can be found at: > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?12953 > To quote from your 17 March 1993 post referenced above: "I have been told more than once, by many people, from afar as well as in person, that my utterances welcome detraction and criticism." So I see people had the same objections to your posts back in 1993 as I do now. This still doesn't address my original claim. You've reported that 15% of the man pages have errors in them, and also disputed another person's claim that the manpages are a strength. What are you doing to resolve the situation? I refer you to your recent post: > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > a fight like that. as well as to the GNATS database, where an originator search for "Monroy" turns up no matches for any open or closed PR's. SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 9:16:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D41AC153C5 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 27551 invoked from network); 30 Jun 1999 16:16:49 -0000 Received: from nw176.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.76) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 30 Jun 1999 16:16:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 19860 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 16:16:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630161641.19859.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.76 by nw176 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 16:16:41 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 09:16:41 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > BTW, I do remember FreeBS work "is done by volunteers". > > I'm one of them. Please insert your foot somewhere else. > = > With the exception that you don't do 'work' or anything with tangible > value. > = Yes, thanks for your un-informed opinion. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 9:18: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4DBDF153C5 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 4290 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 16:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630161804.4289.qmail@nwcst277.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.22 by nwcst277 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 16:18:04 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 09:18:04 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > "when you assume you make an ass out of u and me", = > > Tony Randall, Odd Couple (TV show). > = > Corollary: > = > When Jesus Monroy speaks he makes an ass out of himself. > = Very bad. Please apply jkh@freebsd.org for lessons. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 9:38:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1567B1553E for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA177795508; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:25:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:25:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] In-Reply-To: <19990630161641.19859.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > With the exception that you don't do 'work' or anything with tangible > > value. > > > Yes, thanks for your un-informed opinion. As Seth pointed out so vividly, you've never submitted a PR. You've never given a patch or solution to the things to bitch in broken English about. Even when you made your little statistical post in freebsd-doc, you never provided patches you merely stated something was wrong. That is the only time I've ever seen anything that you've complained about end up in the tree. You give the impression that you are just 'too {cool,smart,busy}' to get tangled in the details of actual work instead of just bitching. I hope your next {rant,post,statistical rip on FreeBSD,opinion,PR,bug report,complaint} ends with a patch. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 9:45:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7E2615537 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 12267 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 16:44:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.67 by nwcst322 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 16:44:42 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 09:44:42 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Seth , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth wrote: > = > = > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > Should you have problems with this statement, my opinions > > are of record and can be found at: > > = > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?12953 > > = > = > To quote from your 17 March 1993 post referenced above: > = > "I have been told more than once, by many people, from afar as = > well as in > person, that my utterances welcome detraction and criticism." > = > So I see people had the same objections to your posts back in 1993 = > as I do now. > = Welcome to the club. > This still doesn't address my original claim. You've reported that = > 15% of > the man pages have errors in them, and also disputed another person's > claim that the manpages are a strength. What are you doing to resolve = > the situation? = > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, my posting was noted and correct by the documentation team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, ask them. > I refer you to your recent post: > = > > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > > a fight like that. = > = Currently, errors in the documentation are constantly creeping in because fixes (or changes) are made to the base utility set, or the parts they = use (ie. command-line flags). This in turn does not get commited to documentataion until the = documentation error is reported or the programmer who may the (possible) error figures this out. In any case, it's a real lack of communication between the documentation team, the core team or freebsd-hackers in general. Where is the root of the problem? I don't know. Can this be solved? I don't know. Well this problem continue to manifest itself at irregular times and without warning? Yes, it's a real daemon. Do you feel yelling at the programers or docuementers trying to find out where this problem is? I certainly don't have the energy for this. > as well as to the GNATS database, where an originator search for = > "Monroy" turns up no matches for any open or closed PR's. > = And you won't. The system is worse than fixable. It has not active responsibility. I watch bugs go from open->closed to closed->open and back again. The system does note entail qualifiable or = referencable documentation. Thereby the same = documentation will be re-hash and re-corrected. If you have a suggestion on how to fix that, I'm all ears. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 9:55:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E06D015532 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 7961 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Jun 1999 16:55:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19990630165514.7960.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.57 by nwcst312 via web-mailer() on Wed Jun 30 16:55:14 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 09:55:14 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Bill Fumerola X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > > With the exception that you don't do 'work' or anything with > > > tangible value. > > > = > > Yes, thanks for your un-informed opinion. > = > As Seth pointed out so vividly, you've never submitted a PR. You've = > never given a patch or solution to the things to bitch in broken = > English about. > = > Even when you made your little statistical post in freebsd-doc, you = > never > provided patches you merely stated something was wrong. That is the onl= y > time I've ever seen anything that you've complained about end up in the= > tree. > = > You give the impression that you are just 'too {cool,smart,busy}' to ge= t > tangled in the details of actual work instead of just bitching. > = > I hope your next {rant,post,statistical rip on FreeBSD,opinion,PR,bug > report,complaint} ends with a patch. > = I been asked in-house to make a reasonable concession on = this matter as it seems that "zero-tolerance" may not be within some peoples vocabulary. My concession is that FreeBSD does have better documentation than some OSs. As a matter of fact, compared to M$ documentation the man pages are a dream. There's my patch. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 10:23:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6C5F14CA2 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id KAA22967; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA22622; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:22:07 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03149; Wed, 30 Jun 99 10:21:43 PDT Message-Id: <377A5226.4F6D6F8E@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:21:42 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Sue Blake , Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]] References: <19990630100355.2966.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > > > > > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are > > > > the man > > > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting > > > > FreeBSD, > > > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > incorrect. > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > and missing descriptions. > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) Hey, Jesus, why don't you go fix the pages instead of "popoff"ing. You arrogant asshole. In case you hadn't noticed it, your survey gathered nothing but yawns because you didn't proffer any help in fixing the situation. Sue has helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of clueless newbies, in many cases by teaching them to read the man pages provided with FreeBSD. Nobody has made any claims they are perfect, but the are a substantial resource and should be stressed as one of the resources making FreeBSD a great system. Put up or shut up. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 10:24:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41C514C07 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id KAA22979; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA22694; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:24:18 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03286; Wed, 30 Jun 99 10:24:16 PDT Message-Id: <377A52C0.A85DE12E@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:24:16 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Konrad Heuer , Sue Blake Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] References: <19990630145327.15958.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 30-Jun-99 Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > >> > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are > > >> > > the man > > >> > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for promoting > > >> > > FreeBSD, > > >> > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > >> > > > > >> > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > >> > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > >> > incorrect. > > >> > > >> For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > >> from the point that Konrad is making. > > >> > > >> > > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > > > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > > > and missing descriptions. > > > > > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > > > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > > > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) > > > > Relatively speaking they are a heck of a lot better than manpagse for > > some > > commercial Unices. They may not be perfect, but they're a heck of a lot > > closer.. and that was the original poster's point, which your survey has > > nothing to do with. > > > Well, as long as we are going to insert the foot, let's do > it right. Thank you for following along folks in the game > of "who's foot will be inserted first?" Yours, of course. Do you have problems with athelete's mouth? If you really feel you MUST continue this assinine tirade, STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT LINE YOU ASSHOLE! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 10:28: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D7414D9B for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id KAA23027; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA22792; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:27:12 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03432; Wed, 30 Jun 99 10:27:10 PDT Message-Id: <377A536D.66C00B5E@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:27:09 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Gregory Sutter , "Jordan K.Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, krooger@debian.org Subject: Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]] References: <19990630095505.1598.qmail@nw173.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > The results was less that 5% were interested in something > different. Which amounted to hitting the red button on > the front of the unit every day. The results of any mass mailing are 3 - 3.5%. Always. Was there a point lurking in here somewhere? And, by the way, stop changing the subject line, asshole. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 10:31:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA2514C59 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18064; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:35:45 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Seth , Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] In-Reply-To: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Seth wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > > Should you have problems with this statement, my opinions > > > are of record and can be found at: > > > > > > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/cgi-bin/newsread?12953 > > > > > > > To quote from your 17 March 1993 post referenced above: > > > > "I have been told more than once, by many people, from afar as > > well as in > > person, that my utterances welcome detraction and criticism." > > > > So I see people had the same objections to your posts back in 1993 > > as I do now. > > > Welcome to the club. > > > This still doesn't address my original claim. You've reported that > > 15% of > > the man pages have errors in them, and also disputed another person's > > claim that the manpages are a strength. What are you doing to resolve > > the situation? > > > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, > my posting was noted and correct by the documentation > team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, > ask them. > > > > I refer you to your recent post: > > > > > May notes I see, in the code and occasionaly in man(1) > > > pages are just wrong. Mind you I not going to run > > > down these daemons I just don't have the energy for > > > a fight like that. > > > Currently, errors in the documentation are constantly > creeping in because fixes (or changes) are made > to the base utility set, or the parts they > use (ie. command-line flags). This in turn does > not get commited to documentataion until the > documentation error is reported or the programmer > who may the (possible) error figures this out. > > In any case, it's a real lack of communication > between the documentation team, the core team > or freebsd-hackers in general. > > Where is the root of the problem? I don't know. > Can this be solved? I don't know. > Well this problem continue to manifest itself > at irregular times and without warning? > Yes, it's a real daemon. > > Do you feel yelling at the programers or > docuementers trying to find out where this > problem is? I certainly don't have the energy for this. Wow, i'm glad i've never been given the beating you are when I disagreed with some people on the lists... :) Problems with man pages is the most goddam easy thing to fix. just use cvsup to grab the source tree in cvs format, use this cvsup file: *default host=cvsup.FreeBSD.org *default base=/usr *default prefix=/home/ncvs *default release=cvs *default delete use-rel-suffix *default compress src-all checkout the tree from the repository: export CVSROOT=/home/ncvs cd ~ ; mkdir src ; cvs co . now go edit a few manpages, when you are done and have verified that your changes really reflect the current state of things, then: cd ~/src/src ; cvs diff -u > ~/man.diff now put ~/man.diff on the web someplace. then you log onto irc and point out the url to your patchfile to the commiters on the channel, or better yet get a "sponsor" meaning someone who will commit for you and email them the url. I used to feel as disillusioned (sp) as you do about the state of doing things for the FreeBSD project, but it's really quite simple once you get realize that when they say "show us the diffs" they mean it. There is no garantee that your patches will be accepted once you do all this, but i'd say barring any glaring errors or ommisions you have a 90% chance of getting doc changes in. Sitting on your butt harrasing the doc people will just get you scorn. You have to make up your mind as to you real goals. oh, yeah easy way to check your manpages: nroff -man putc.3 | less > --- > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml I *LOVE* this quote. :) -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|bright@wintelcom.net] systems administrator and programmer Win Telecom - http://www.wintelcom.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 10:32:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B3914C59 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greg@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg (gquinlan [194.81.0.56]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA65075 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:51:22 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <000001bec310$ae436ce0$380051c2@qmpgmc.ac.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: References: <19990629020705.27766.qmail@nwcst286.netaddress.usa.net> Subject: Linux and Hardware! Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:46:24 +0100 Organization: Queen Mary's Hospital (SWLCT) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who said that Linux wasn't gaining speed ;( Even hardware manufacturers are getting in on the act! www.supermicro.com Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 11:38:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C711564D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA55592; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:38:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]]] References: <19990630165514.7960.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jun 1999 20:38:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jesus Monroy's message of "30 Jun 99 09:55:14 PDT" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy writes: > There's my patch. Good for you. Could you also please stop pointlessly changing the subject line all the time, or at least use a MUA which generates correct References: and In-Reply-To: header lines? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 13: 0:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B362155CE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip145.houston3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.169.145]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48B3370BD; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA69711; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:59:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:59:34 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] Message-ID: <19990630145934.C67585@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 09:44:42AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, > my posting was noted and correct by the documentation > team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, > ask them. Using 'send-pr' to send documentation bugs is the exact same as sending the info directly to the freebsd-doc mailing list, with the added bonus of having the problem report and all followups saved for future reference. -- Chris Costello Death is a nonmaskable interrupt. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 16:31:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59BC15453 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26385; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:31:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026359; Wed Jun 30 16:30:55 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10390; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:30:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199906302330.QAA10390@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] To: jesus.monroy@usa.net (Jesus Monroy) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:30:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, jesus.monroy@usa.net, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> from "Jesus Monroy" at Jun 30, 99 09:44:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, > my posting was noted and correct by the documentation > team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, > ask them. That's "retarded 'pr' system". My guess as to the speed is that it's a result of sending email instead of using the 'pr' system. For what it's worth, I can't get the 'sendpr' stuff to work from my freebsd box behind the corporate firewall because it's apparently overly anal about reverse DNS. > Currently, errors in the documentation are constantly > creeping in because fixes (or changes) are made > to the base utility set, or the parts they > use (ie. command-line flags). This in turn does > not get commited to documentataion until the > documentation error is reported or the programmer > who may the (possible) error figures this out. > > In any case, it's a real lack of communication > between the documentation team, the core team > or freebsd-hackers in general. > > Where is the root of the problem? I don't know. > Can this be solved? I don't know. > Well this problem continue to manifest itself > at irregular times and without warning? > Yes, it's a real daemon. It's possible to resolve. The engineering technique is called "literate programming". There was apparently a nice talk about it at Usenix, with someone building a kernel using the technique to allow them to publish an example. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 16:38:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A41D1545D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:38:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA023130713; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:25:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jesus Monroy , seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] In-Reply-To: <199906302330.QAA10390@usr09.primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > For what it's worth, I can't get the 'sendpr' stuff to work from > my freebsd box behind the corporate firewall because it's > apparently overly anal about reverse DNS. http://www.FreeBSD.org/send-pr.html, with uuencoded patches. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 17:46:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0i.netaddress.usa.net (www0i.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F2E915779 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 23525 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 00:46:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701004604.23524.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.38 by www0i via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 00:46:04 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 17:46:04 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > > Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. > > > = > > Thank you for that interject mr. attitude. > > BTW, I thought I was in you kill-file.... promises, promises. > = > No, I was advocacting your entry in the FreeBSD.org killfile. > = Then why don't you post the script. And quit yapping. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 17:55:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay04.netaddress.usa.net (relay04.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C5FF156ED for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 24673 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 00:55:12 -0000 Received: from www0a.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.30) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 00:55:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 14503 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 00:55:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701005511.14502.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.30 by www0a via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 00:55:11 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 17:55:11 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] Cc: Sue Blake , Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are= > > > > > the man > > > > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for > > > > > promoting > > > > > FreeBSD, > > > > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > > > > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > incorrect. > > > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract= > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > > > > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > > and missing descriptions. > > = > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) > = > Hey, Jesus, why don't you go fix the pages instead of "popoff"ing. > You arrogant asshole. > = > In case you hadn't noticed it, your survey gathered nothing but > yawns because you didn't proffer any help in fixing the situation. > = Yawns... That certainly does not seem to be the case after the last 50 or so messages on this mailing list. = I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, including yours. > Sue has helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of clueless newbies, in many= > cases by teaching them to read the man pages provided with FreeBSD. = > Nobody has made any claims they are perfect, but the are a substantial > resource and should be stressed as one of the resources making FreeBSD > a great system. > = Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. > Put up or shut up. > = I am putting up... would you like more of the same. I got fixes, where are your answers? --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 17:58:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 461C1153CC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 18173 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 00:58:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701005831.18172.qmail@nwcst312.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.57 by nwcst312 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 00:58:31 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 17:58:31 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Konrad Heuer , Sue Blake X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > > John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > > On 30-Jun-99 Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > >> > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good > > > >> > > are > > > >> > > the man > > > >> > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for = > > > >> > > promoting > > > >> > > FreeBSD, > > > >> > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here= =2E > > > >> > > > > > >> > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > >> > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > >> > incorrect. > > > >> > > > >> For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not = > > > >> detract > > > >> from the point that Konrad is making. > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > > > > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > > > > and missing descriptions. > > > > > > > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > > > > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > > > > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) > > > > > > Relatively speaking they are a heck of a lot better than manpagse = > > > for > > > some > > > commercial Unices. They may not be perfect, but they're a heck of = a = > > > lot > > > closer.. and that was the original poster's point, which your > > > survey has > > > nothing to do with. > > > > > Well, as long as we are going to insert the foot, let's do > > it right. Thank you for following along folks in the game > > of "who's foot will be inserted first?" > = > Yours, of course. Do you have problems with athelete's mouth? If = > you really feel you MUST continue this assinine tirade, STOP CHANGING = > THE SUBJECT LINE YOU ASSHOLE! > = What the hell are you talking about? There is no tirade. I am simple stating facts. An I am not changing the subject line. The presriptions will now be dispensed at the water cooler in the rear of the building. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18: 2:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6E01551C for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA052015589; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:46:29 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Wes Peters , Sue Blake , Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] In-Reply-To: <19990701005511.14502.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, > including yours. You need to actually do something to step on {toes,egos,territory}. Being a large dickhead seems to be the only thing that you do to anger people. You're not some trend-setting, fight the power, go-getter, , etc.. that is somehow "bucking the system" and getting flak for it. You're just an ass. > I got fixes, where are your answers? You just choose not to share your fixes? - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18: 3:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A602E15745 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 25662 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 01:10:00 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701011000.25660.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.35 by nwcst290 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 01:10:00 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 18:10:00 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, krooger@debian.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > > The results was less that 5% were interested in something > > different. Which amounted to hitting the red button on > > the front of the unit every day. > = > The results of any mass mailing are 3 - 3.5%. Always. Was there a > point lurking in here somewhere? > = > And, by the way, stop changing the subject line, asshole. > = Wes, you are really out there today. I have not changed a single SUBJECT LINE. Has this heat wave got you? cause I'm in ACed offices. Perhaps thats what's needed. Nurse we'll take those later, can we have a tall glass of lemonade. With lemon please. For my friend. Those of you in the peanut gallery please note, I'm now kindly timming the CC line. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18: 8:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2E5153CC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA04608; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:07:49 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990701110745.54894@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:07:45 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Wes Peters , Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] References: <19990701005511.14502.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990701005511.14502.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 05:55:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 05:55:11PM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Wes Peters wrote: > > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > To my mind *one* of the points where FreeBSD is really good are > > > > > > the man > > > > > > pages. I don't have a proposal how to use this fact for > > > > > > promoting > > > > > > FreeBSD, > > > > > > but my intention is to mention that strength of FreeBSD here. > > > > > > > > > > > Very incorrect. Just a few days ago I show that 15% > > > > > of the online whatis(1) and man(1) records where > > > > > incorrect. > > > > > > > > For one definition of "incorrect". What you showed does not detract > > > > from the point that Konrad is making. > > > > > > > > > > > Wait a minute. Where is this arrogant attitude coming from! > > > The results plainly should wrong pages index, bad references > > > and missing descriptions. > > > > > > Please explain your idea (or definition of "correct"). > > > (Please note I know where all the IEEE papers are on > > > correct. So think this through before you popoff.) > > > > Hey, Jesus, why don't you go fix the pages instead of "popoff"ing. > > You arrogant asshole. > > > > In case you hadn't noticed it, your survey gathered nothing but > > yawns because you didn't proffer any help in fixing the situation. > > > Yawns... That certainly does not seem to be the case > after the last 50 or so messages on this mailing list. Oh them. That's just because you're so funny :-) > I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, > including yours. It's obvious that you're trying, but it doesn't come across as a threat, just amusing. You should see the kind of jokes about you that circulate in private email. Some of us are even quite concerned for your health. Everyone knows you're behaving like a sociaopathic troll who's short on sleep and a few other things, and that it's just because you're bored and feel like a silly little man sometimes. Nobody in their right mind would ever take you seriously. So don't worry, you won't make any enemies here, we'll look after you. > > Sue has helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of clueless newbies, in many > > cases by teaching them to read the man pages provided with FreeBSD. > > Nobody has made any claims they are perfect, but the are a substantial > > resource and should be stressed as one of the resources making FreeBSD > > a great system. > > > Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. Yes, I agree, FreeBSD doesn't deserve your loyalty! Send me your address in private mail and I'll send you my Linux CDs. I've also got a list of Linux contacts to start you off, and I'll pick out all the fun ones who are easily trolled (that's most of them). -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18: 9:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D303B153CC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-037.thuntek.net [207.66.52.37]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA08137; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:09:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <377ABED0.CD0A16C9@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:05:20 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] References: <19990701005511.14502.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. > > > Put up or shut up. > > > I am putting up... would you like more of the same. > > I got fixes, where are your answers? > Jesus, shut up, please. If you despise it, leave. If you want to fix it, submit patches. I don't consider what you called a patch worthy of the name. This is getting really disgusting, and you're wasting a lot of bandwidth with your obtuseness. SHUT UP if you've got nothing valid to add. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:12:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0x.netaddress.usa.net (www0x.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 05667153CC for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:12:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 25027 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 01:12:34 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701011234.25026.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.53 by www0x via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 01:12:33 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 18:12:33 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > > Do you feel yelling at the programers or > > docuementers trying to find out where this > > problem is? I certainly don't have the energy for this. > = > Wow, i'm glad i've never been given the beating you are when I = > disagreed with some people on the lists... :) > = This is nothing. I actually think the love me. :-) > Problems with man pages is the most goddam easy > thing to fix. > = > just use cvsup to grab the source tree in cvs = > format, use this cvsup file: > = BUZZZZZtttt. wrong. Are you helping M$ with their Y2K plan? = Did you hear that about M$? They actually suggested that people download at 200Megabyte file (MSiE) to fix a 2 byte problem. Now, in your case, it's 4 paragraphs and 4-6 hours of my time. NO thank you. = Let's ask a real question: Why can't program fixers write the fricken man page fix also? What's up with that? = Is this the correct response: Okay, I'll take the glory, but we have janitors to clean up after we are done. We call them document specialist(sp?). So let's try again,kids... Let talk about a real answer, = Or is everyone out on this one also. > > --- > > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = > > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml > = > I *LOVE* this quote. :) > = Thanks, just wish I had said it. :-) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:14:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA6AE1568F for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 23906 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 01:15:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701011513.23905.qmail@nwcst021.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.21 by nwcst276 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 01:15:13 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 18:15:13 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Greg Quinlan , Subject: Re: [Linux and Hardware!] X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Greg Quinlan" wrote: > Who said that Linux wasn't gaining speed ;( > = > Even hardware manufacturers are getting in on the act! > = > www.supermicro.com > = Yes, I hear Ben and Jerry will be on the bandwagon soon. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:19: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0j.netaddress.usa.net (www0j.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B8FE1558F for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 2467 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 01:19:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701011902.2466.qmail@www0j.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.39 by www0j via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 01:19:02 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 18:19:02 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jesus Monroy Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]]]] Cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Jesus Monroy writes: > > There's my patch. > = > Good for you. Could you also please stop pointlessly changing the > subject line all the time, or at least use a MUA which generates > correct References: and In-Reply-To: header lines? > = Sorry, in case you were unaware, it says usa.net in my email. Have a nice day. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:21:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DEA014D46 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 3648 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 01:21:27 -0000 Received: from nw176.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.76) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 01:21:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 3638 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 01:21:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701012126.3637.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.76 by nw176 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 01:21:26 GMT 1999 Date: 30 Jun 99 18:21:26 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > > for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, > > my posting was noted and correct by the documentation > > team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, > > ask them. > = > Using 'send-pr' to send documentation bugs is the exact same > as sending the info directly to the freebsd-doc mailing list, > with the added bonus of having the problem report and all > followups saved for future reference. > = Chris, I see your point, but right now I'm off to see Wild, Wild, West, the movie. I'm assuming this is a thing that can be fixed. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:28:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB9D14E60 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id KAA23416; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:58:24 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA03407; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:58:23 +0930 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:58:23 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jesus Monroy , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > then you log onto irc and point out the url to your patchfile > to the commiters on the channel, or better yet get a "sponsor" > meaning someone who will commit for you and email them the url. I will personally commit any manpage fixes which are provided to me. How's that for an offer? :-) Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:39:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630E01548C for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25031; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:39:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd024992; Wed Jun 30 18:39:31 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14703; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:39:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907010139.SAA14703@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]] To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:39:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jesus.monroy@usa.net, wes@softweyr.com, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990701110745.54894@welearn.com.au> from "Sue Blake" at Jul 1, 99 11:07:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yes, I agree, FreeBSD doesn't deserve your loyalty! Send me your > address in private mail and I'll send you my Linux CDs. I've also > got a list of Linux contacts to start you off, and I'll pick out > all the fun ones who are easily trolled (that's most of them). Gee, Sue, don't post things like this to advocacy unless you want 50 or so people beating down your front door for your list of contacts. If the list fell into the hands of some clever Linuxer, who knows what would happen!?! They might put together some perl scripts to automatically keep them so embroiled in responding to trolls that the remaining Linux people's productivity would shoot up an order of magintude or more! Do we really want that?!? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 18:43:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5301542D for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19190; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] In-reply-to: Your message of "30 Jun 1999 18:12:33 PDT." <19990701011234.25026.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:42:39 -0700 Message-ID: <19156.930793359@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It's time to end this thread. Please end your participation in it voluntarily so that we're not forced to end it involuntarily again. Thank you. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 20:43:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCE514CBE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01064; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:43:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <377AE3CC.67EBC388@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:43:08 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, krooger@debian.org Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Linux vs. NT, take 2.]]] References: <19990701011000.25660.qmail@nwcst290.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > > > The results was less that 5% were interested in something > > > different. Which amounted to hitting the red button on > > > the front of the unit every day. > > > > The results of any mass mailing are 3 - 3.5%. Always. Was there a > > point lurking in here somewhere? > > > > And, by the way, stop changing the subject line, asshole. > > > Wes, you are really out there today. > I have not changed a single SUBJECT LINE. Yes, you have. You keep encasing the previous subject line in Re: [], that's why the subject has become so, er, inbred. Pay attention here. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 20:50: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CED14CBE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01080; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:49:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <377AE562.B223987B@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:49:54 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Who's been messing with the PR system? References: <19990630164442.12266.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jesus Monroy wrote: > > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > for reporting bugs. OK, who retarted the PR system behind my back, and why didn't I get one of the tarts? I *really* like tarts. Well, not so much since I've been married, of course, but still it'd be nice to have one or two around to vacuum. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 21: 1:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC4B14CBE for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01111; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:00:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <377AE7F4.7D56B888@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:00:52 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jesus Monroy , Seth , Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Wow, i'm glad i've never been given the beating you are when I > disagreed with some people on the lists... :) You probably didn't know it, but JMJr. has 6 or 7 years of history with some of the FreeBSD community -- none of it good. We weren't beating him because we disagreed, we were beating him because he's JMJr. and has come back to haunt us and turn our or beloved mailing lists into a twisty maze of incomprehensible blatherings. In fact, I'm not sure JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the monkey cage at some zoo... [Capsule review of editing man pages elided...] > then you log onto irc and point out the url to your patchfile > to the commiters on the channel, or better yet get a "sponsor" > meaning someone who will commit for you and email them the url. Just use send-pr to submit the patch, somebody will get it, review it, and commit it if OK, or bounce it back to you if it needs more work. I don't IRC, it already takes enough time to sift through 600 emails per day. Unlike JMJr., I do occasionally commit things to FreeBSD. ;^) > I used to feel as disillusioned (sp) as you do about the state of doing > things for the FreeBSD project, but it's really quite simple once > you get realize that when they say "show us the diffs" they mean it. Yes, we do. As Seth pointed out, JMJr. has never even bothered to file a problem report with the send-pr command, let alone submit a fix to something, so his grandiose claims of contributions to FreeBSD ring VERY hollow. You have to be careful about sending in good quality patches to FreeBSD, though. If you keep it up, everyone will eventually get tired of committing patches for you and make you do it yourself. ;^) > There is no garantee that your patches will be accepted once you > do all this, but i'd say barring any glaring errors or ommisions > you have a 90% chance of getting doc changes in. > > Sitting on your butt harrasing the doc people will just get you > scorn. It's nice to see people realizing this (as well as not changing the subject line). ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 21:38:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DC315518 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:38:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01161; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:38:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <377AF0B8.9076225F@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:38:16 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jesus Monroy , seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]] References: <199906302330.QAA10390@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > Currently, errors in the documentation are constantly > > creeping in because fixes (or changes) are made > > to the base utility set, or the parts they > > use (ie. command-line flags). Errors in the documenation are constantly creeping in because that is just how the world works. You can be a part of the problem, or a part of the solution. To be a part of the solution, feel free to submit re-written man pages, new man pages, or just diffs. > > Where is the root of the problem? I don't know. > > Can this be solved? I don't know. > > Well this problem continue to manifest itself > > at irregular times and without warning? > > Yes, it's a real daemon. > > It's possible to resolve. The engineering technique is called > "literate programming". There was apparently a nice talk about > it at Usenix, with someone building a kernel using the technique > to allow them to publish an example. JavaDoc does a somewhat credible job along these lines as well. Wind River systems, the makers of the VxWorks embedded OS, also uses an internal documentation format so the man pages are maintained in the source files. None of these are as complete as Web, the literate programmin tool, which embeds the code within the documentation, but all are at least steps in the right direction. Encouraging programmers to update the documentation as they update the code is a step in the right direction, too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 21:49: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.ghostgbtb.com (modem10.tekrab.net [208.30.20.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0219155A5 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by server.ghostgbtb.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA95271; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:48:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) X-Authentication-Warning: server.ghostgbtb.com: mrami owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:48:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez X-Sender: mrami@server.ghostgbtb.com To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Who's been messing with the PR system? In-Reply-To: <377AE562.B223987B@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > > for reporting bugs. > > OK, who retarted the PR system behind my back, and why didn't I get one > of the tarts? I *really* like tarts. Well, not so much since I've been > married, of course, but still it'd be nice to have one or two around to > vacuum. Rule of thumb: Every minute spent reading JMJr postings is a minute less to spend looking for tarts. I have others, too. Marc. -- Marc Ramirez - Owner Great Big Throbbing Brains mrami@gbtb.com http://www.gbtb.com Our brains throb, so yours won't have to! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 23:14:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B621214CA4 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 99320 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Jul 1999 06:14:24 -0000 Date: 30 Jun 1999 23:14:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:14:24 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: JMJ's Existance Message-ID: <19990630231423.C82637@dub.net> References: <377AE7F4.7D56B888@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <377AE7F4.7D56B888@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > ... In fact, I'm not sure > JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the monkey > cage at some zoo... Oh no, he exists. We saw him, or his avatar at least, in the usenix terminal room. Fear. -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 23:26:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80E914E28 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA65939; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bill Swingle Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: JMJ's Existance In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:14:24 PDT." <19990630231423.C82637@dub.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: <65936.930810353@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Naw, that was a *different* Jesus. Jesus Monroy was not at USENIX at any time this year. :) > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > ... In fact, I'm not sure > > JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the monkey > > cage at some zoo... > > Oh no, he exists. We saw him, or his avatar at least, in the usenix > terminal room. Fear. > > -Bill > > -- > -=| Bill Swingle - unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com > -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 30 23:54: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0551E14C83 for ; Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA03342; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:24:00 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA87177; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:23:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:23:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Bill Swingle , Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: JMJ's Existance Message-ID: <19990701162358.H82831@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990630231423.C82637@dub.net> <65936.930810353@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <65936.930810353@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 11:25:53PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 30 June 1999 at 23:25:53 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>> ... In fact, I'm not sure >>> JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the monkey >>> cage at some zoo... >> >> Oh no, he exists. We saw him, or his avatar at least, in the usenix >> terminal room. Fear. > > Naw, that was a *different* Jesus. Jesus Monroy was not at USENIX > at any time this year. :) More specifically, that was Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta, who heads the Spanish branch of the Documentation Project. He's a normal person. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 0:36:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nw171.netaddress.usa.net (nw171.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9E5A15620 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 5664 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 07:36:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701073624.5663.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.71 by nw171 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 07:36:24 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 00:36:24 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: This one's for you. X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In an attempt to point out a few of the shortcomings of FreeBSD, it has become evident that some have = come to their own conclusions. Be that as it is, I will answer all remaining unresponded messages. However, as the discussion seems to wandering heavily into personal attacks I see it neccessary to discontinue those threads. To add to this I personally take all responsibility = for the nature of the discussion and do take it upon myself to limit my comments of a personal nature in the future. Plainly there is reason to = believe many people have done fine work regard = FreeBSD, applications, documentaion and advocacy. Again I will remind many of you, as I did in years past, the true nature of opinions held borders on sheer arrogance. In this context, I'm am fully = aware that this will lead to further attack and adhoc vigilantionizum (sp?). None the less, the trail I'm laying down will in fact lead to a better FreeBSD and more user moving to *BSD. Someone will surely claim this is = truely arrogant on my part. Let me clear the air now, and finally once-and-for-all; yes this is truely arrogant on my part. To finish up, my hope is that this distraction will end. I will do my part by NOT commenting for the next 7 calender days. To be perfectly clear, any items not in my inbox by the time = of this posting will not get a response. And finally, I am once again posting the original information regarding the errors in documentation. Personal message sent to me on this matter will get a response and it will remain personal. That is, it will not be posted to newsgroups or mailing lists. Items sent not relating to this will be return un-replied. My hope is that this current distraction will end and many of us can go back to the real topics. Regards Jessem. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Document: Documentation errors in FreeBSD Run Date: 6/17/99 Description: The following is a listing of incomplete, ambigous or failed references for FreeBSD using whatit(1) and man(1). This survey was conducted using FreeBSD 3.1. A complete Listing can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hub/8031/psuedo-indicators/fbsduti= ls.html Score: directory no reference ambigous reference other total available /bin 0 1 1 2 32 /sbin 8 5 0 13 82 /usr/bin 42 33 0 75 394 /usr/sbin 8 7 2 17 183 ---- ---- total total 107 691 Final Score 107.0/691.0 =3D 0.1548 (15.5%= ) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 0:51:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nw171.netaddress.usa.net (nw171.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66E9F15620 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 6860 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 07:51:18 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701075118.6859.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.71 by nw171 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 07:51:18 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 00:51:18 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: etc...] Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > = > > > > Do you feel yelling at the programers or > > > > docuementers trying to find out where this > > > > problem is? I certainly don't have the energy for this. > > > = > > > Wow, i'm glad i've never been given the beating you are when I = > > > disagreed with some people on the lists... :) > > > = > > This is nothing. I actually think the love me. :-) > = > You've really pushed it too far when Jordan comes down on you. > Please read on though. > = YACK, Yack, Yack. > > > Problems with man pages is the most goddam easy > > > thing to fix. > > > = > > > just use cvsup to grab the source tree in cvs = > > > format, use this cvsup file: > > > = > > BUZZZZZtttt. wrong. > > Are you helping M$ with their Y2K plan? > > = > > Did you hear that about M$? > > They actually suggested that people download > > at 200Megabyte file (MSiE) to fix a 2 byte problem. > > = > > Now, in your case, it's 4 paragraphs and 4-6 > > hours of my time. NO thank you. > = > Let's take this in perspective, there are two ways you > could have aquired FreeBSD a) purchased cdrom b) download > = > switch(purchase) { > a: you already have the repository on one of the cdroms, > all you need to do is copy it over to harddisk and = > then run cvsup against it, this will drastically cut > down on the cvsup download size/time > = > b: you downloaded freebsd off the internet, bite the bullet > and download the whole repo. > = > } > = Yes, I have this in my perspective. So what? > > Let's ask a real question: > > Why can't program fixers write the fricken man > > page fix also? > > What's up with that? > = > You mistakenly belive it's done on purpose, I assure you it's not. > Sometimes people forget to document things. It's an innocent > side effect of a rapidly evolving project. > = No, I have not made any such assumption. = My assumtion is that no effort is made to clear up this situation. You are lend evidence to this arguement by showing true arrogance on this and beleive that this is OKAY and that this is a "rapidly evolving project". None of this is true. More to the truth is, it is a group of amatuers that are learning through the prospect of others. And with this, when facts are pointed out more arrogance ensues. My Point. My whole damm arguement, discussion, = retoric and diatribe is that this does not need to happen and has no reason to continue. > > Is this the correct response: > > Okay, I'll take the glory, but we have janitors > > to clean up after we are done. We call them > > document specialist(sp?). > = > No we call them "small contributors" and give them respect. > You get a perminant entry in the cvs log on a "contributed by" line, > it's a nice thing and actually gives you a warm fuzzy feeling > when you see the commit go through, trust me. > = I can tell you, I'm getting no warm fuzzies. I see things go from open->close and close->open and back. What is that saying. NO-cluebies at work. > Notice there is no "bitched until I fixed it" line? :) > = Yes, thank you. > > So let's try again,kids... Let talk about > > a real answer, = > > = > > Or is everyone out on this one also. > = > No, i think everyone pretty much has agreed that you're a wanker, > take a month off, fix some docs and file a pr. = > Nope. > Use the web interface > if you hate the command line one, i personally don't like the > command line one because of reverse DNS issues. > = That is broken also. > People will be waiting, you _can_ redeem yourself. :) > = They can wait in a M$ convention for all I care. :-) > Patches lead the way to redemption. > = Not on your life. :-) ---- This is not my regular signature message. "Do you want to touch my monkey?" --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 0:58:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0r.netaddress.usa.net (www0r.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D384152C7 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 4358 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 07:58:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701075817.4357.qmail@www0r.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.47 by www0r via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 07:58:17 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 00:58:17 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > In case you hadn't noticed it, your survey gathered nothing but > > > yawns because you didn't proffer any help in fixing the situation. > > > > > Yawns... That certainly does not seem to be the case > > after the last 50 or so messages on this mailing list. > = > The last 50 or so messages on the list have all been about explaining > in great detail why you're an asshole, not about the man pages. The > fact that you can't tell the difference just illustrates what an asshol= e > you are. > It's an awfully lovely presentation also isn't it. = > > I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, > > including yours. > = > No, but I do get my hackles up when someone starts verbally abusing Sue= =2E > She's a close personal friend as well as a valuable instructor for = > FreeBSD, and you certainly have NO ground to stand on and accuse her > of arrogance, not in this forum or any other. > = Why not, you are guilty of the same. > > > Sue has helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of clueless newbies, in = > > > many cases by teaching them to read the man pages provided with = > > > FreeBSD. > > > Nobody has made any claims they are perfect, but the are a = > > > substantial > > > resource and should be stressed as one of the resources making = > > > FreeBSD > > > a great system. > > > > > Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. > = > If you despise it so, why don't you just go away. > = Maybe because I love it so. > > > Put up or shut up. > > > > > I am putting up... would you like more of the same. > > = > > I got fixes, where are your answers? > = > Answers? I wrote man pages for the aio_ routines last week. They're > being reviewed by several committers who are familiar with the aio > system, and I will probably commit them this weekend. I haven't seen > you contribute ANYTHING to FreeBSD in years, buddy-boy. > = That is correct. > You, on the other hand, haven't even taken the time to sort the results= > of your survey into a well-organized PR, let alone submit patches or = > correct man pages. = > Why? Would you prefer this SURVEY continue to perhaps the last 6 revisions of the OS just to show what a truely hacked job it has been. > Since you seem to think this is so important, why = > don't you detail the inconsistencies and I'll get to work fixing them? > = Be happy to. You'll see it in a posting. If not, please feel free to send me a personal message on this. My word to you is that I will keep the message personal and you will get this information. > So, I repeat, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Stop BrettGlassing us. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ When I know what this is I might consider it. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1: 2:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 106D815620 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip145.houston3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.169.145]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CEB3728B; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA72105; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:01:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:01:53 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This one's for you. Message-ID: <19990701030153.D71244@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990701073624.5663.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990701073624.5663.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 12:36:24AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 1, 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > Document: Documentation errors in FreeBSD > Run Date: 6/17/99 > Description: The following is a listing of incomplete, ambigous or > failed references for FreeBSD using whatit(1) and man(1). > This survey was conducted using FreeBSD 3.1. > > A complete Listing can be found at: > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Hub/8031/psuedo-indicators/fbsdutils.html > > Score: > directory no reference ambigous reference other total available > /bin 0 1 1 2 32 > /sbin 8 5 0 13 82 > /usr/bin 42 33 0 75 394 > /usr/sbin 8 7 2 17 183 > ---- ---- > total total 107 691 > > Final Score 107.0/691.0 = 0.1548 (15.5%) This is hardly helpful. What you should do is actually help and make some patches and submit them with send-pr. -- Chris Costello After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1: 6: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B222155D8 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip145.houston3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.169.145]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB2C373DF; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA72127; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:04:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:04:37 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: etc...] Message-ID: <19990701030437.E71244@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990701075118.6859.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990701075118.6859.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 12:51:18AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 1, 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > I can tell you, I'm getting no warm fuzzies. > I see things go from open->close and close->open > and back. What is that saying. > > NO-cluebies at work. You also have not ever tried it. I don't see your name at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/contrib-additional.html Strangely, no results turn up when I search for you in the PR database. -- Chris Costello If a program is useless, it must be documented. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1: 7: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B61CA14C14 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 21785 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 08:06:57 -0000 Received: from nw174.netaddress.usa.net (HELO .netaddress.usa.net) (204.68.24.74) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 08:06:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 15336 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:06:53 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701080653.15335.qmail@.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.74 by nw174 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:06:53 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:06:53 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Swingle , Wes Peters Subject: Re: [JMJ's Existance] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Swingle wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > ... In fact, I'm not sure > > JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the monke= y > > cage at some zoo... > = Wes, this is pretty old. > Oh no, he exists. We saw him, or his avatar at least, in the usenix > terminal room. Fear. > = No I was not there. It must have been my clone, daemon or cron job that got away from me. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1: 9:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 31DB0151FE for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:08:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 22321 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:08:13 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701080813.22320.qmail@nwcst322.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.67 by nwcst322 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:08:13 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:08:13 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: [Re: JMJ's Existance] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 30 June 1999 at 23:25:53 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 10:00:52PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > >>> ... In fact, I'm not sure > >>> JMJr. really exists, I think he's really just a terminal in the > >>> monkey > >>> cage at some zoo... > >> > >> Oh no, he exists. We saw him, or his avatar at least, in the usenix > >> terminal room. Fear. > > > > Naw, that was a *different* Jesus. Jesus Monroy was not at USENIX > > at any time this year. :) > = > More specifically, that was Jesus Rodriguez Cuesta, who heads the > Spanish branch of the Documentation Project. He's a normal person. > = Well at least there is one of that is normal. :-) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1:16:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay04.netaddress.usa.net (relay04.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF2EF14CB4 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 14437 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 08:16:25 -0000 Received: from www0a.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.30) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 08:16:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 16511 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:16:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701081621.16510.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.30 by www0a via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:16:21 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:16:21 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > I guess you want me to resort to that retarted'pr' system > > for reporting bugs. Albeit the current defacto standard, > > my posting was noted and correct by the documentation > > team in less than 48hrs. Why so soon? Can't tell you, > > ask them. > = > That's "retarded 'pr' system". My guess as to the speed is that > it's a result of sending email instead of using the 'pr' system. > = > For what it's worth, I can't get the 'sendpr' stuff to work from > my freebsd box behind the corporate firewall because it's > apparently overly anal about reverse DNS. > = The system needs a revision, but unfortunaly I took a vow of silence for the next seven days. We can pick this up then, if you like. > > Currently, errors in the documentation are constantly > > creeping in because fixes (or changes) are made > > to the base utility set, or the parts they = > > use (ie. command-line flags). This in turn does > > not get commited to documentataion until the = > > documentation error is reported or the programmer > > who may the (possible) error figures this out. > > = > > In any case, it's a real lack of communication > > between the documentation team, the core team > > or freebsd-hackers in general. > > = > > Where is the root of the problem? I don't know. > > Can this be solved? I don't know. > > Well this problem continue to manifest itself > > at irregular times and without warning? > > Yes, it's a real daemon. > = > It's possible to resolve. The engineering technique is called > "literate programming". There was apparently a nice talk about > it at Usenix, with someone building a kernel using the technique > to allow them to publish an example. > = There are many solutions. But again on 7 day hold. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1:39:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2CE361554B for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 24611 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:45:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701084526.24610.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.34 by nwcst289 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:45:26 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:45:26 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > On 30 Jun 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > = > > I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, > > including yours. > = > You need to actually do something to step on {toes,egos,territory}. > Being > a large dickhead seems to be the only thing that you do to anger people= =2E > = > You're not some trend-setting, fight the power, go-getter, cliche>, etc.. that is somehow "bucking the system" and getting flak fo= r > it. > = > You're just an ass. > = > > I got fixes, where are your answers? > = > You just choose not to share your fixes? > = Bill, it's more than apparent that your opinion of me is: I'm an ass, I'm an asshole, I'm a jerk, I'm a flake. To make it easy for all involved. When I see you using ass or a derivative thereof, I will just say "Thank you, Bill. And have a nice day." So, "Thank you, Bill. And have a nice day." --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1:47: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay03.netaddress.usa.net (relay03.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.183]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 666C014BB8 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 17822 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 08:46:55 -0000 Received: from www0t.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.49) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 08:46:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 23077 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:46:55 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701084655.23076.qmail@www0t.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.49 by www0t via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:46:55 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:46:55 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 05:55:11PM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > Sue Blake wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 02:28:16AM -0700, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > > > > > Konrad Heuer wrote: >,,,,,,,,,,,,,[SNip SNap SNup].................... > > > > > > > > > > In case you hadn't noticed it, your survey gathered nothing but > > > yawns because you didn't proffer any help in fixing the situation. > > > = > > Yawns... That certainly does not seem to be the case > > after the last 50 or so messages on this mailing list. > = > Oh them. That's just because you're so funny :-) > = Well, thank you. > > I think more along the line I'm stepping on toes and egos, > > including yours. > = > It's obvious that you're trying, but it doesn't come across as a > threat, just amusing. You should see the kind of jokes about you that > circulate in private email. Some of us are even quite concerned > for your health. > = It's not the first time... please see Jordan. BTW, feel free to post some of those jokes. I could use a good laugh now and then. > Everyone knows you're behaving like a sociaopathic troll who's short on= > sleep and a few other things, and that it's just because you're bored > and feel like a silly little man sometimes. Nobody in their right mind > would ever take you seriously. So don't worry, you won't make any > enemies here, we'll look after you. > = Well, I'm not sure what to think, except I know you are taking me seriously. > > > Sue has helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of clueless newbies, in = many > > > cases by teaching them to read the man pages provided with FreeBSD.= = > > > Nobody has made any claims they are perfect, but the are a substant= ial > > > resource and should be stressed as one of the resources making Free= BSD > > > a great system. > > > = > > Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. > = > Yes, I agree, FreeBSD doesn't deserve your loyalty! Send me your > address in private mail and I'll send you my Linux CDs. I've also > got a list of Linux contacts to start you off, and I'll pick out > all the fun ones who are easily trolled (that's most of them). > = NO thank you. I already have RH,Caldera,Debain,SUSE and Ysgradill. (damm could never pronouce or spell the last.) As for the Linux group.. they love me too. :-) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 1:53:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from relay05.netaddress.usa.net (relay05.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC4E2156B9 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 23531 invoked from network); 1 Jul 1999 08:53:10 -0000 Received: from nw176.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.76) by outbound.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 1 Jul 1999 08:53:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 4698 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 08:53:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701085309.4697.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.76 by nw176 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 08:53:09 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 01:53:09 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > Jesus Monroy wrote: > > = > = > > Yes, greatly despised(sp?) and loved system. > > = > > > Put up or shut up. > > > > > I am putting up... would you like more of the same. > > = > > I got fixes, where are your answers? > > = > Jesus, shut up, please. = > Why we are getting things fixed. You should be happy. > If you despise it, leave. = You should know by now I love it. = > If you want to fix it, submit patches. = > It's getting fixed as we speak. > I don't consider what you called a patch worthy of the name. > I have not written a patch to date. The early PatchKit should have been called "The Greate Pumpking Packet Kit", but it missed it's calling. :-( As for the current patch system it seems to be faring no better. > This is getting really disgusting, and you're wasting a lot of > bandwidth with your obtuseness. = > I'm obtuse? I reporting facts. You don't like them? > SHUT UP if you've got nothing valid to add. > I've always SpeakUP when I have valid things to add. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 2:33: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8489214BD0 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 27733 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 09:39:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701093922.27732.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.34 by nwcst289 via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 09:39:22 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 02:39:22 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Kris Kennaway , Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > = > > then you log onto irc and point out the url to your patchfile > > to the commiters on the channel, or better yet get a "sponsor" > > meaning someone who will commit for you and email them the url. > = > I will personally commit any manpage fixes which are provided to me. = > How's that for an offer? :-) > = Sorry, no fixes to offer, will never have any. = Prevously I had a rather long response, but my browser blewup. I take that as a sign. :-) --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 2:36:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from www0i.netaddress.usa.net (www0i.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0EB5614BD0 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesus.monroy@usa.net) Received: (qmail 1948 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jul 1999 09:36:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19990701093630.1947.qmail@www0i.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.38 by www0i via web-mailer() on Thu Jul 1 09:36:29 GMT 1999 Date: 1 Jul 99 02:36:29 PDT From: Jesus Monroy To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer () Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Yes, I agree, FreeBSD doesn't deserve your loyalty! Send me your > > address in private mail and I'll send you my Linux CDs. I've also > > got a list of Linux contacts to start you off, and I'll pick out > > all the fun ones who are easily trolled (that's most of them). > = > Gee, Sue, don't post things like this to advocacy unless you want 50 > or so people beating down your front door for your list of contacts. > = > If the list fell into the hands of some clever Linuxer, who knows > what would happen!?! They might put together some perl scripts > to automatically keep them so embroiled in responding to trolls > that the remaining Linux people's productivity would shoot up an > order of magintude or more! Do we really want that?!? > = HAHAHAHAHA, Terry we don't always agree on things, but some of your message just keep me rolling. --- "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, = pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 4:38:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30CA155E9 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id VAA28065; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:08:50 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA23075; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:08:37 +0930 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 21:08:37 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] In-Reply-To: <19990701093922.27732.qmail@nwcst289.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Jul 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > > I will personally commit any manpage fixes which are provided to me. > > How's that for an offer? :-) > > > Sorry, no fixes to offer, will never have any. I think that about says it all, really. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 7:21:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E3015363 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA024593648; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:07:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This one's for you. In-Reply-To: <19990701073624.5663.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Jul 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > failed references for FreeBSD using whatit(1) and man(1). $ whatis whatit whatit: nothing appropriate I know Sue pointed this out. It get funnier knowing that we(FreeBSD committers) are being accused of not fixing documentation when errors are pointed out. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 7:22:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319B6156A8 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA024653737; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:08:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 06:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: My FreeBSD Experience ]]]]]] In-Reply-To: <19990701081621.16510.qmail@www0a.netaddress.usa.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Jul 1999, Jesus Monroy wrote: > There are many solutions. But again on 7 day hold. Stopping or holding requires doing something to begin with. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 12: 2:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B46A15203 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02101; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:02:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001220; Thu Jul 1 12:02:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09564; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:00:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907011900.MAA09564@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] To: jesus.monroy@usa.net (Jesus Monroy) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:00:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990701085309.4697.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> from "Jesus Monroy" at Jul 1, 99 01:53:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I don't consider what you called a patch worthy of the name. > > I have not written a patch to date. > The early PatchKit should have been called > "The Greate Pumpking Packet Kit", but it missed it's calling. :-( > > As for the current patch system it seems to be faring > no better. Not to tempt you out of your self imposed seven day email celebacy, but... The original patchkit was done the way it was done because Bill Jolitz did not expose a source repository of any kind. I realize that the strictures of the patchkit were onerous, but they derived from a human being (me) being the equivalent of a CVS merge. The ordering dependencies only triggered on overlapping patches, but when they triggered, there was a single order-of-application mutex that triggered (gated through a human -- again, me) to ensure that the patches did not fail to apply. Yes, I take full responsibility for the emergent properties of this system, starting with the fact that the serialization was such a bottleneck that people became uncomforatable enough with the choke-hold that they started a completely new repository using a real source management system. And Voi'la, we have NetBSD, the first 386BSD schism. Similarly, I believe the current CVS system, with the inability to run simultaneous views on the repository (what Linus Torvalds and Larry McVoy call "LOD"'s or "Lines Of Developement"), has similar emergent properties. You can make fun of the patchkit, as Lynne Jolitz (who I respect, and whose obvious territoriality at the time is excusable under the circumsatnces of the time) did, and in a similar vein ("one third of the patches are good; one third of them are ineffective but harmless; one third of them are wrong" -- with the implied "I won't tell you which third is which"). However, without my effort, and the subsequent efforts of the people I foisted the job off onto (Nate Williams, Rod Grimes, Jordan, et al.), the world would be a much poorer place. Yes, it's obvious that there are problems that result from emergent properties of the current system. Those of us with sufficiently advanced mathematical tools, an understanding of games and complexity theory, and non-linear dynamics even have mathematical models that are predictive of the systems overall behaviour. It is one thing to call attention to the problem occasionally, to ensure that it is not forgotton; it is another entirely to pour salt in the wound. The problem before us is not to salt wounds, but to design a system such that it has the resulting emergent properties which we designate as desirable. This task is non-trivial in the extreme, to put it mildly. Unless you have concrete proposals, I believe that you have exceeded the threshold of "occasionally" for this particular thread. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. > > > This is getting really disgusting, and you're wasting a lot of > > bandwidth with your obtuseness. > > > I'm obtuse? I reporting facts. You don't like them? > > > SHUT UP if you've got nothing valid to add. > > > I've always SpeakUP when I have valid things to add. > > > --- > "I'd rather pay for my freedom than live in a bitmapped, > pop-up-happy dungeon like NT." > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9809of1.shtml > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 13: 2:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FA815083 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpthompson@home.net) Received: from c665834-a ([24.7.95.143]) by mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <19990701200230.VBJZ8807.mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com@c665834-a> for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:02:30 -0700 Message-Id: <4.1.19990701124821.00bf3900@mail.atomz.com> X-Sender: mpthompson@mail.smateo1.sfba.home.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:59:19 -0700 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Mike Thompson Subject: New web service using FreeBSD servers exclusively Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I thought that I would pass along to everyone that my partners and I have just launched a major new web service that uses Intel servers running FreeBSD 2.2.8 exclusively. We have been extremely happy with the software development process under FreeBSD and we constantly remind ourselves how good our choice was to choose FreeBSD early on in the development cycle. If anyone want's to take a look, the URL is "www.atomz.com". We don't yet have a credit graphic for FreeBSD on the site, but we are working on it right now. If someone can send some URLs that show how other companies running FreeBSD servers have credited FreeBSD, this would help me out. We are entering a very competitive market on the web and we have noticed that most of our competition has choosen that other Unix-like OS or even worse, that OS from Redmond. In any case, we hope that choosing FreeBSD will be one of the reasons we will leap ahead of the competition and stay ahead. By the way, if you like the service at "www.atomz.com" please feel free to join -- it's free. Also, the more members we get the more FreeBSD servers we will need :-). Mike Thompson CT0/Co-Founder mike@atomz.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 1 18:19:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D75C14FDD for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03023 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:19:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907020119.UAA03023@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 1 Jul 99 20:19:08 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 1 Jul 99 20:18:49 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:18:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New web service using FreeBSD servers exclusively Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <4.1.19990701124821.00bf3900@mail.atomz.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Jul 99, at 12:59, Mike Thompson wrote: > We don't yet have a credit graphic for FreeBSD on the site, but we > are working on it right now. If someone can send some URLs that > show how other companies running FreeBSD servers have credited > FreeBSD, this would help me out. Well..... I'd look at http://www.freebsd.org On the bottom of the page are a bunch of credits.... Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: I'll never forget good ol' what's-his-name. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 2 22:46:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BA115278 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.54.113]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB260D; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:46:37 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA61461; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:31:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:31:23 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Chris Costello Cc: Jesus Monroy , Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: etc...] Message-ID: <19990703073123.A61399@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990701075118.6859.qmail@nw171.netaddress.usa.net> <19990701030437.E71244@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990701030437.E71244@holly.dyndns.org>; from Chris Costello on Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 03:04:37AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Chris Costello (chris@calldei.com) [990701 10:47]: > I don't see your name at > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/contrib-additional.html Well I'll be damned, my name is even on it. *big grin* And I only did some port updates, send-pr's with fixes and general moaning and bitching on the lists. =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at it's best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 2 22:46:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4089114D18 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.54.113]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA260D; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:46:35 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA61481; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:43:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:43:59 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Jesus Monroy Cc: Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: On programmers and documentation Message-ID: <19990703074359.B61399@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990701011234.25026.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990701011234.25026.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net>; from Jesus Monroy on Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 06:12:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Jesus Monroy (jesus.monroy@usa.net) [990701 06:47]: > > Let's ask a real question: > Why can't program fixers write the fricken man > page fix also? > What's up with that? I'd rather have DES, EE, Alfred, Brian, David, Mike, Kirk, Matt, Wes, Peter, Doug, etc, etc. write initial documentation and leave it for some others to change them to better documentation. This alows them to work on resolving bugs. > Is this the correct response: > Okay, I'll take the glory, but we have janitors > to clean up after we are done. We call them > document specialist(sp?). So I may start to call myself a document specialist now eh? Anyways Jesus, it takes time to work on these things, I invest time in trying to get the documentation correct. Sheldon is doing a great job on the GNATS database (plus the occasional help from me and some others), Doug is doing great things for the -questions stuff so that -current gets addressed on certain issues. Chris Piazza has been very active on -ports. Nik has done wonders for -doc. (And now I am forgetting hordes of other people.) I have yet to see your name appear out of the blue. Instead of writing mails that merely accuse (which I take personal because I invested time in it) I would ask you to put forth another 5-10 minutes on the mail/subject and look at WHAT needs to be fixed and HOW plus, if available, with diff-/patchfile. If you just criticise without giving proper feedback/help yer not really making friends. Everyone can miss `parasites' for lack of a better term. [parasites as in feeding on the precious time of others which could have been used to fix the little manpage problems present which started this whole fscking thread] [NOTE: first posting about this subject, I will only reply to sensible answers] With regards, -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at it's best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 2 23:46:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDE814BD5 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:46:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.54.113]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6CF4; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:46:35 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA61524; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:47:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 07:47:56 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jesus Monroy , dwilde1@thuntek.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: [Re: [FreeBSD Man Pages]]]] Message-ID: <19990703074756.C61399@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990701085309.4697.qmail@nw176.netaddress.usa.net> <199907011900.MAA09564@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <199907011900.MAA09564@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 07:00:33PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Terry Lambert (tlambert@primenet.com) [990701 22:48]: > > You can make fun of the patchkit, as Lynne Jolitz (who I respect, > and whose obvious territoriality at the time is excusable under > the circumsatnces of the time) did, and in a similar vein ("one > third of the patches are good; one third of them are ineffective > but harmless; one third of them are wrong" -- with the implied > "I won't tell you which third is which"). However, without my > effort, and the subsequent efforts of the people I foisted the > job off onto (Nate Williams, Rod Grimes, Jordan, et al.), the > world would be a much poorer place. We know that Terry, and the lot of us respect that in turn of contributing back to the Project. However certain individuals seem to lack that attitude and those who find themselves guilty after reading this sentence should damn wel be. So, here then Terry, a cyber toast to you and the rest of the committing and submitting people! CHEERS! -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at it's best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 3 2:46:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD48A14D03 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 02:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.54.162]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA200F for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:46:37 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA62126 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:40:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:40:42 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: c't dutch version Message-ID: <19990703114042.E61399@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The July/August issue mentions that MacOS-X has a BSD/Mach base on which everything runs. (page 73) Small piece of credit but interesting nonetheless. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at it's best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 3 8:30:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F5114D92; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA35492; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I must disagree with you with respect to business's and the use of NT combined with FreeBSD or with Window 9.x or MAC's. The reason is as follows. If I have a small office or even an office with 50+ workstations and happen to be in the financial industry, I would want my staff to do their work without having to spend countless hours trying to teach them FreeBSD. If they are already comfortable with MS OFFICE or whatever MAC uses ( I know nothing of MAC's) then why the need for the "pain". Face it, most people who work for organizations like banks or law firms etc; will use windows based programs for their day to day work. From the security standpoint, NT does offer ways in which a logon will only let you see what ever the sys admin has allowed for a particular user. With Win 9.x the same thing is basically do-able. However you need to know the ins and outs of the win 9.x OS and well. The other (and really good approach) way is to implement Samba. With Samba running, all machines can be forced to use the same Profiles for desktops and shares can easily be set up, allowing the System Admin to control who sees what, where and when. This also gives a boost for those that can "sell" their services to a firm and thereby become the sysadmin. As we all know, you need not send a cheque to anyone for the amount of users accessing the file server. Windows, as I have written an article about in with respect to Samba, is great. What I like best is that it really shows (and proves beyond a shadow of doubt) that FreeBSD is a fantastic OS. Going back to security for a sec. We all know how well FreeBSD works with security. There will be no contention here for dispute. The way I see it, is to get business IT department heads to implement FreeBSD. In the local papers here (Toronto, Canada) recently, there have been quite a few articles by journalists regarding linux and how "good" it is. Some of these journalists have been criticizing the Gov't here for needlessly spending money on Microsoft products when they could implement linux for print and file sharing services. In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. Well, enough said on that point. Have a great day :-) Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 3 17: 1: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (bootes.ebtech.net [142.250.0.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A87314CC8; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@geeky1.ebtech.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id TAA19695; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:03:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (paul@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id TAA03637; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:05:02 -0400 Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 19:05:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Anderson To: Lanny Baron Cc: cjclark@home.com, ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Lanny Baron wrote: > > In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > Multiple distributions is a good thing, IMHO. You can pick and choose which one you want, and how you want the system setup. You can't do that with FreeBSD. One thing that must be remembered about Windows, is that it's NOT a multi-user OS. Any support of multiple users is only very vague, and practically unenforceable. It's a kludge that microsoft added on when they started to realize that Windows wasn't just going to be a toy OS to run on the desktop. Unfortunately, it still is a toy, just like Microsoft's favourite language, Visual Basic. WinNT is only suitable for individual desktop machines that do not have multiple users and are in non-critical situations. At Cisco, the 10% or so of employees using Windows account for over 90% of the help desk calls. Not only is it a buggy OS, it encourages users to be dependant on tech support. Now, which is more expensive - a half-hour run through of Linux put together by one employee at $40/hr, or 15 people running a help desk at $30/hr for the rest of the company's life. TTYL! --- Paul Anderson - Self-employed Megalomaniac paul@geeky1.ebtech.net Member of the Sarnia Linux User's Group http://www.sar-net.com/slug http://zephyr.sellad.on.ca/~paul Activating user acumen teleperception subsystem, please stand by... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 3 22: 6: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B1314C30; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 22:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt4-208-166-127-207.dialup.HiWAAY.net [208.166.127.207]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA32399; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 00:05:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA29384; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:53:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199907040453.XAA29384@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Lanny Baron Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Lanny Baron of "Sat, 03 Jul 1999 11:30:26 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 23:53:25 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lanny Baron writes: > If they are already comfortable with MS OFFICE or whatever MAC uses ( I > know nothing of MAC's) then why the need for the "pain". Face it, most > people who work for organizations like banks or law firms etc; will use > windows based programs for their day to day work. I can't find the reference, but recently saw some statistics claiming DOS was still the leader in law offices. MacOS was a close 2nd. Altho NT was gaining ground. This past week I purchased a demo 21" monitor from MaxVision, a high end PC-based value added CAD shop. The nice lady who took my money bantered the president of MaxVision for selling me this 21" monitor when she only had a 15" on her desk. OTOH the application she was running to print my invoice was in 80x25 text mode. Likely DOS, maybe SCO. Little good a 21" monitor would do her. I almost fell out of my chair laughing the first time I saw the BIOS messages and FreeBSD's kernel init messages in 80x25 mode on a 21" monitor. My point is a commercial environment is often a production shop. The computer on desktops has a specific purpose, usually not including web surfing or word processing. The application is tailored to that environment. "Windows skills" have little to do with the ability to get the job done. I doubt I would have been able to coax an invoice out of the above application without quite a number of iterations of trial and error. In an engineering shop there will also be a core application or suite of applications. The OS matters less than the application. For the past 10 years I have used a Macintosh for schematic and PCB design. The applications I have been using have been getting long in the tooth and its time to consider replacing them. It appears the only productive choices I have are NT based. Those running on HP or Sun workstations are beyond my price range. I'd sure like to find something I could run under FreeBSD as I'm not a "production" computer user, I use my computers as general purpose multi-tools. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message