From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 4 21: 4: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rmx11.iname.net (rmx11.iname.net [165.251.12.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2688314C33 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 21:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmonroy@email.com) Received: from webc01.globecomm.net by rmx11.iname.net (8.9.1a/8.8.0) with ESMTP id XAA18130 ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 23:59:22 -0400 (EDT) From: jmonroy@email.com Received: (from nobody@localhost) by webc01.globecomm.net (8.9.1a/8.9.2.Alpha2) id AAA03293; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:01:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: webc01.globecomm.net: nobody set sender to jmonroy@email.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <9907050001551K.23986@webc01.globecomm.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Torvalds Lays an Egg Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/20399.html Regards Jessem. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 5 10:29:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5975D14C2F for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:29:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p09s02a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.210.10] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 111CYb-0002ur-00 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:29:30 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00297 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:25:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:25:16 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD mentioned in new O'Reilly book Message-ID: <19990705182516.A256@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Today I bought a copy of the newly published (May 1999) O'Reilly book "Programming with Qt" by Matthias Kalle Dalheimer. In the first chapter he mentions FreeBSD twice, "...popular free Unix-like operating systems, such as Linux or FreeBSD....". I don't know if there are further references (give me a chance, it's a 350-page book). OK, so it's not earth-shattering FreeBSD advocacy but it's good to see an author not using "Linux" as an umbrella term for free Unix. Nice one, Matthias. There is also a short section "Red Hat's position towards Qt" in which he explains that Red Hat's opinion is that Qt is not free according to their deinition of free. I don't know whether he intends it as a criticism of Red Hat but I certainly read it as such. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:markov@globalnet.co.uk http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 5 12:46:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CAE14BE9 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAACA8 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:44:07 -0400 Message-ID: <37810B96.66135FD6@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:46:30 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Embed Together: The Case For BSD In Network Appliances Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I nice article, mentioning PicoBSD ! http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9906of2.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 11: 3: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.digital-web.net (unix1.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CCF14F52 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by unix1.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30675 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@unix1.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD mention in SANS web cast Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was listening to the SANS web cast for IP Concepts: A SANS LevelOne Short Course and he ( sorry can't remember his name ) mentioned FreeBSD's /etc/service list as being very good and one he recommends for info on service/port data. This is kind of funny given the recent discussion about what port radius should be listed at :-) The course was pretty basic, but he covered the basic ip topics pretty well. Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 13:11:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C47914FA0; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:11:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip145.houston3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.169.145]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CA4370BB; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07723; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:09:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:09:44 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cheesy benchmarks Message-ID: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so amazingly -- well -- stupid. http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ -- Chris Costello The whole is the sum of its parts, plus one or more bugs To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 16:57:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E720A14CFF; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:57:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA13972; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:27:12 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA25978; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:27:11 +0930 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:27:11 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done > some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so > amazingly -- well -- stupid. > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ What's stupid about them? Apart from the fact that details of kernel tuning (if any) and compiler options weren't specified, I guess. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 17: 3:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD5514CFF; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip145.houston3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.169.145]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BDC037074; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA35312; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:02:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:02:38 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks Message-ID: <19990706190238.Q4158@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 09:27:11AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 6, 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > > > It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done > > some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so > > amazingly -- well -- stupid. > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > What's stupid about them? Apart from the fact that details of kernel tuning > (if any) and compiler options weren't specified, I guess. The fact that they're using the loopback device, and are making both the server and client on the same single machine. > > Kris > > ----- > "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, > because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." > -- Unknown > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Chris Costello My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 17: 7: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4D514E3F; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id JAA13944; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:36:50 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA18942; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:36:49 +0930 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:36:49 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990706190238.Q4158@holly.dyndns.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > > > What's stupid about them? Apart from the fact that details of kernel tuning > > (if any) and compiler options weren't specified, I guess. > > The fact that they're using the loopback device, and are > making both the server and client on the same single machine. Fair enough, that does seem silly. Kris ----- "Never criticize anybody until you have walked a mile in their shoes, because by that time you will be a mile away and have their shoes." -- Unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 17:57:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C5A114CB4; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:28684 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:56:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:56:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Chris Costello , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > What's stupid about them? Apart from the fact that details of kernel tuning > (if any) and compiler options weren't specified, I guess. The fact that the C and perl code are not equivalent for one thing. If you are going to print the Content-Type header yourself in one, do the same thing in the other. It's skewed. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 6 18:28:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from impatience.valueclick.com (impatience.valueclick.com [216.64.159.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA37C14F6E for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ask@valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 28109 invoked by uid 500); 7 Jul 1999 01:28:38 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 7 Jul 1999 01:28:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:28:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Chris Costello , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done > > some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so > > amazingly -- well -- stupid. > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > What's stupid about them? [...] That they're distributed out of context. The context was not OS benchmarking, but comparing different ways of generating content. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - more than 14M impressions per day, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 0:58: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B17DD14C8B; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA17012; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:57:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA02615; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:10:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990707101034.41857@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:10:34 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Alex Perel Cc: Kris Kennaway , Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Perel on Tue, Jul 06, 1999 at 08:56:53PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Perel writes: > > The fact that the C and perl code are not equivalent for one thing. If you > are going to print the Content-Type header yourself in one, do the same > thing in the other. It's skewed. I think it's not so much that the results are skewed than the fact that it's not even worth calling it a bench: - inconsistent setup - no tuning description - no optimization description - no filesystem layout descriptions (it doesn't really matter, since this one will obviously stay in memory) etc... It's just not a benchmark. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 1: 3: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rmx11.iname.net (rmx11.iname.net [165.251.12.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA9B71531E for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmonroy@email.com) Received: from webc01.globecomm.net by rmx11.iname.net (8.9.1a/8.8.0) with ESMTP id DAA16268 From: jmonroy@email.com Received: (from nobody@localhost) by webc01.globecomm.net (8.9.1a/8.9.2.Alpha2) id EAA26844; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:00:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: webc01.globecomm.net: nobody set sender to jmonroy@email.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <990707040048DB.14441@webc01.globecomm.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Salon.com:Linux is like a Chinese peasant uprising Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not sure if this got send; Sorry if you get his twice. Linux is like a Chinese peasant uprising http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/07/06/linux_china/index.html Archived usual place. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 1: 3: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rmx11.iname.net (rmx11.iname.net [165.251.12.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CE815331 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmonroy@email.com) Received: from webc01.globecomm.net by rmx11.iname.net (8.9.1a/8.8.0) with ESMTP id DAA16258 From: jmonroy@email.com Received: (from nobody@localhost) by webc01.globecomm.net (8.9.1a/8.9.2.Alpha2) id EAA26764; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 04:00:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: webc01.globecomm.net: nobody set sender to jmonroy@email.com using -f MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <990707035929EI.14647@webc01.globecomm.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 03:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Salon.com:Linux is like a Chinese peasant uprising Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Linux is like a Chinese peasant uprising http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/07/06/linux_china/index.html Archived usual place. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 6:12:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C981114D79; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:27661 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:12:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:12:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Kris Kennaway , Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990707101034.41857@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > I think it's not so much that the results are skewed than the fact > that it's not even worth calling it a bench: > > - inconsistent setup > - no tuning description > - no optimization description > - no filesystem layout descriptions (it doesn't really matter, since > this one will obviously stay in memory) > > etc... > > It's just not a benchmark. It's a wonderful display of incompetence and lack of thought, that's what it is. Methinks it was done haphazardly, and for what purpose? Anyone even remotely educated will look at this and laugh. :) Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 9:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F08151B6 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14859; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907071615.MAA14859@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Mark L. Holloway'" , kahn@deadbbs.com Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:16:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Windows NT and it's use in the business world Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org References: <000501bea7d6$552cec80$a4f40518@cx273271-a.pwy1.sdca.home.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, After reading the mail below, I must agree with Alfred with respect to microsofts marketing. Face it, Gates is the marketing man of the century (for $$). Although I don't really know if FreeBSD per se has a clause regarding a guarantee or non-gurantee, the NT system constantly needs to be rebooted when you install most software. Which, in a corporate environment, could be a real pain. As for exchange, I know nothing about it. I just use plain 'ol sendmail but then I only have 3 stations here at home. In the business world, I am told by a person who sells networking for company of about 50 employees, they (the big shots) will ask there buddies "hey what are you using.." "NT" one will reply the other.. "novell". So it's more like keeping up with the "Jones" as the big wigs are into business deals and are for the most part, totally computer illiterate (yes even more than me..as I can hardly believe). Also in the real business world, where I can think of a true example. Someone very close to me works for a major Canadian financial institution. In a large capacity. They use windows9.x for managers workstations, Novell for groupwise and maybe some other applications like shares. But the backbone of the whole place is AIX on AS400's. So once again, it's a flavor of Unix that is the Supreme OS. I certainly agree and understand with companies using ms products for workstations. If I owned or managed a company that needed employees to use programs like Office, I would think it is a lot more common. To train employee's to use FreeBSD workstations could be very expensive and I would imagine a lot of people quitting over it. They don't want to learn (the employees ..) new (ok not so new but new to them) OS's and how to run Xemacs. Not only that, most companies I have sent resumes to, expect it in ms .doc format. Why? So they know you at least can use ms word. But all that led me to start to learn Samba. Samba with FreeBSD and you pro's know can out preform NT. It's a matter of marketing on a personal level to get it going. I wonder if any of you have done it. If so, can you tell me your success story? Regards, Lanny > On Wed, 26 May 1999, kahn wrote: > > > > >> I'm not trying to start a flame war..I am just curious. If NT is as > >> horrible of an OS as everyone claims then why do web sites like > >> Barnes and Noble, Ebay, CDW, and BuyComp (among others) use it? > >> > >> I'm not trying to praise NT - just wanting some information > >> explaining why people should choose one OS over another. > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> Mark > >> > > I would have to say NT is not as bad as I would like it to be. Granted I > > have to restart it more then any of my UNIX machines, It is still not that > > bad. I use NT to host my web-based email, beacuse I use exchange as the > > server. I use FreeBSD as the host for my main pages. > > > > Most companys use NT simple because it is expected of them, or just simpler > > to setup. Even better for the big companies, It seems better to go with a > > product that has a responsible company behind it. This is not to say that > > Micro$oft is a responsible company, just responsible for their product. For > > the systems I have setup here and there, I use what ever the customer wants. > > > > Hope this helps. > > It doesn't help, and you are perpetuating a total lie, ever notice the > the "License Agreement" the you always click "yes" to whenever you install > ANY aplication or are bound to by simply open the shrinkwrap. > > it goes somewhat along the lines of: > > --- > > "We ain't responsible if this stuff falls over and makes you go broke > cause you loose all your customers, or if the machine catches fire, etc, > etc, etc..." > > Do you agree to this absurdity? (YES) (no) > > --- > > Microsoft may support you if you pay them _enough_, but purchasing > MS software in no way insures you against a blue screen of death. > > They are not "responsible for their product", they make sure you sign > off to that whenever you install or open one of their products. > > NT is just used because of marketting, NT is used because because > the lowest commmon demoninator in computing is sliding away from > us. NT is used because people are just damn lazy and would rather > be stuck in GUI hell than have the flexibility offered by unix. > > rant rant etc.. > > sorry, I just hate the "well it's a commercial app, the company will > stand behind it" speel, it just doesn't happen except in IT people's > fantasies. > > How is MS ever going to recoup you for downtime in the real world? > > -Alfred > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 9:28:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B73315286 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 17:28:03 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id N96YD319; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:28:53 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 111uYS-0000Ag-00; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:28:16 +0100 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:28:16 +0100 To: Lanny Baron Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Mark L. Holloway'" , kahn@deadbbs.com Subject: Re: Windows NT and it's use in the business world Message-Id: <19990707172816.A630@palmerharvey.co.uk> References: <000501bea7d6$552cec80$a4f40518@cx273271-a.pwy1.sdca.home.com> <199907071615.MAA14859@freedom.cybertouch.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907071615.MAA14859@freedom.cybertouch.org>; from Lanny Baron on Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 12:16:25PM -0400 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 12:16:25PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > But the backbone of the whole place > is AIX on AS400's. That'll be OS/400, not AIX. It's a whole different (and *very* proprietary) beast. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 11:34:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DC8154A5 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29193; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:40:56 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Lanny Baron Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Mark L. Holloway'" , kahn@deadbbs.com Subject: RE: Windows NT and it's use in the business world In-Reply-To: <199907071615.MAA14859@freedom.cybertouch.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Jul 1999, Lanny Baron wrote: > Hello all, > > After reading the mail below, I must agree with Alfred with respect > to microsofts marketing. Face it, Gates is the marketing man of > the century (for $$). Although I don't really know if FreeBSD per se > has a clause regarding a guarantee or non-gurantee, the NT > system constantly needs to be rebooted when you install most > software. Which, in a corporate environment, could be a real pain. It is a realy pain, the amount of downtime forced onto a company because of NT quickly adds up to thousands and even thousands of thousands of dollars. > I certainly agree and understand with companies using ms > products for workstations. If I owned or managed a company that > needed employees to use programs like Office, I would think it is a > lot more common. To train employee's to use FreeBSD > workstations could be very expensive and I would imagine a lot of > people quitting over it. They don't want to learn (the employees ..) > new (ok not so new but new to them) OS's and how to run Xemacs. > Not only that, most companies I have sent resumes to, expect it in > ms .doc format. Why? So they know you at least can use ms word. This argument against unix has always been total bull sh*t, give someone in marketting a computer with no OS installed and you're being a fool. Two week later they still won't have anything installed. When windows is used not only are the machine pre-configured but then they are crippled severly so someone "doesn't drag the internet into the recycling bin" FreeBSD can also be installed, non-crippled ahead of time for these people, there is no OS to learn, how many people in accounting really know how to change thier IP address in 95? in NT? in FreeBSD? When does this actually matter? I admit the unix desktop need a lot more work put into it in terms of desktop publishing needs before it can offer the richness available in the MS world. Once some real interapplication communication framework is done (gnome and kde are already doing this) you can expect to see some great stuff coming up. > But all that led me to start to learn Samba. Samba with FreeBSD > and you pro's know can out preform NT. It's a matter of marketing > on a personal level to get it going. > > I wonder if any of you have done it. If so, can you tell me your > success story? > > Regards, > > Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 7 14:58:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs6-45.arl.netwalk.net [216.69.201.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD42414D4C for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA65761; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:57:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 18:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Lanny Baron , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Mark L. Holloway'" , kahn@deadbbs.com Subject: Re: Windows NT and it's use in the business world In-Reply-To: <19990707172816.A630@palmerharvey.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :On Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 12:16:25PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: :> But the backbone of the whole place :> is AIX on AS400's. : :That'll be OS/400, not AIX. It's a whole different (and *very* :proprietary) beast. :-- It's really too bad that AIX won't run on an AS/400. I might have some use them then. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 0:30:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (mail.metropolitan.at [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE6A14C01 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 00:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:33:04 +0200 Message-ID: <55586E7391ACD211B9730000C11002761796E2@r-lmh-wi-100.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: "'jmutter@netwalk.com'" , Dominic Mitchell Cc: Lanny Baron , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "'Mark L. Holloway'" , kahn@deadbbs.com Subject: RE: Windows NT and it's use in the business world Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:26:58 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: James A. Mutter [SMTP:jmutter@netwalk.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 12:02 AM > To: Dominic Mitchell > Cc: Lanny Baron; Alfred Perlstein; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; > 'Mark L. Holloway'; kahn@deadbbs.com > Subject: Re: Windows NT and it's use in the business world > > :On Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 12:16:25PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > :> But the backbone of the whole place > :> is AIX on AS400's. > : > :That'll be OS/400, not AIX. It's a whole different (and *very* > :proprietary) beast. > :-- > > It's really too bad that AIX won't run on an AS/400. I might have > some use them then. :) [ML] Sure it does. It is even mandatory (AFAIK) as the IP stack runs under AIX. The same applies to the new releases of OS/390. In any case, the AS400 web server runs in the AIX subsystem (the AIX filesystems appear as big datasets in the OS/400 filesystem, and AIX also has a view of other OS/400 datasets). /Marino > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 8: 3:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from luna.pingnet.ch (luna.pingnet.ch [194.148.8.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F5E155FB for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 08:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mgilly@bonsai-studio.com) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (pop-zh-5-dialup-4.freesurf.ch [194.230.18.4]) by luna.pingnet.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09942 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:06:13 GMT Message-Id: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 17:01:37 +0000 Subject: FreeBSD as Webserver (long) From: "Miguel Gilly" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bonsai Studio: Web Design and More http://www.bonsai-studio.com Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, This is a _long_ message about FreeBSD as Webserver, Hardware-Monitoring support and a Web based configuration of FreeBSD. first I'd like to tell a little about me: I'm currently involved in the web design business, and what brought me to FreeBSD, was the need for a Webserver. First, I considered a solution on Macintosh with Webten (=Apache), an OS I worked with over the last years. After playing around with Webten for a while, the whole system crashed. So I started to look at Linux which is supposed to be stable. I digged at Linux sites for a few weeks, and installed Suse 6.1 on my PC. I wasn't very excited, though I know MS-DOS and Windows 386, 3.0, 3.1 etc. and was used to tweak config files. However, two weeks ago I discovered the FreeBSD site. It was much more what I was looking for: Serious, professional attitude and a conservative approach. Built to last and survive in production enviroments. That's exactly what I was looking for. But after some time, I realized, that there are some significant things missing in FreeBSD (as well as Linux btw.): An intelligent clustering software for webservers and support for Server Hardware Extensions (read: hardware-monitoring, logging and alerting on Intel Server Boards or IBM Netfinity series for example). This leads to this mail offering some suggestions. Probably they where posted before, as the need is obvious, so forgive me if I recite old requests for the n'th time. 1. Redundant, scaleable remote webserver clustering The idea behind this is simple. Take two cheap Boxes, colocate them at different ISP's, and if one server fails (one ISP goes offline, a harddisk or NIC fails or whatever else happens) the other one takes over. Add more servers as needed either at the same ISP or over more remote sites to grow with your needs. Mirroring the content is not such a problem, but load balancing and health monitoring requires an intelligent software (let's call it router), that 1. Works on the same machine as the webserver or on a dedicated machine 2. Traces the client to determine it's location and direct him to its topologically closest available router 3. Keeps the client on the same webserver during the whole session, to allow e.commerce and SSL connections 4. Keeps a record of load, health and cache-content of all servers within the cluster as well as the load and health of all other routers (one router only manages it's own servers, and communicates with all other routers that manage their own servers. Routers report overall load of the cluster). 5. Scaleable from a simple 2 servery configuration to a worldwide clustered cluster of hundreds of servers. Hardware price/performance considerations: One Enterprise Level Quad Xeon with 2MB caches and RAID costs around 50-70K, depending on what you buy. 12 P2/450 Boxes with 256 MB RAM each cost around 15K, and offer more CPU performance, which is relevant for dynamic content and SSL encryption. Add a redundant Fileserver with RAID and ATM (OC-3) networking for another 15K. What do you get for half the price of an Enterprise Server? More redundancy and more CPU power. Tradeoff? Heat, power consumption, required space. If that's not a problem, it's your solution. That is, if you have the right software. You can buy boxes w/o redundant power supplies, redundant NIC's and without any disks (LAN boot) or use small IDE-Flash disks to boot. If one box fails, take it out, fix it, and put it back in. The point is, you can start with two boxes and scale pretty well until a certain level (where you will compete with the largest sites of the world or even beyond), by adding a central fileserver, switch-ports, network bandwith (OC-12) and more remote sites. All your investements are protected, from the very beginning with your first server pair. Or a more simple example: Take two simple AMD K6-3 boxes with SCSI drive and compare the price to a redundant server with the same performance. You pay less for the two boxes and have more redundancy. For example, though it rarely fails, the mainboard isn't redundant on a conventional server, no matter what price range. Also the software isn't (a software hang cuts the whole service off). You can twist and turn it as long as you want, two non-redundant small boxes offer more redundancy than a single redundant server, probably for less money. The cluster-software is the core of all. Keeping users on the same machine during a session and maintaining a cache record and load status of each machine within a cluster allows an efficient use of the caches, preventing a popular site to fill all node-caches with its content as it happens with simple load balancing. 2. Hardware-Monitoring: Intel Server Boards and servers from IBM, HP, Compaq etc. offer all enhanced hardware monitoring capabilities. Unfortunately, only few commercial operating systems are supported. For a server that is in a mission critical enviroment, hardware monitoring is imperative. FreeBSD would strenghten it's position as reliable, bulletproof Server OS by supporting those features. It would also convince more decision makers to switch to FreeBSD, because from a marketing point of view, it has a lot of weight. Think about spending a lot of money for a IBM Netfinity server, put FreeBSD on it and you can't use all those nice things that distinguish it from a simple PC... The same goes for Intel Server Boards, that notify the administrator when a CPU fan fails or even when an entire CPU goes down (in SMP systems). But again, no support in FreeBSD. It would be enough to focus on one OEM supplier (Intel) and one System supplier (IBM), instead of supporting all kinds of extensions. Both brands mentioned above are known to be conservative and offer reliable products for x86-world standards. 3. Web based configuration for FreeBSD To attract more non Unix folks (I had to push myself quite a bit to accept the challenge of Unix, but I finally saw no alternative to a Unix-based webserver), a GUI based configuration would be a great thing. This is also a part where I would be willing and able to contribute. Back to the web business: Today, more complex sites become standard: Dynamic content, scripting extensions, databases, SSL certificates and custom logging to name the most common. The typical Virtual Server offering of an ISP can't fullfill the demands of a professional website. A webdesigner is very soon at a point where he considers to buy his own webserver to have full control over his projects and colocates it at an ISP. Now, especially smaller companies don't have always a Unix savvy team member, so they are tempted to go with one of those popular gadget operating systems, as they fear the complexity of Unix and expect high support costs. To make Unix (in this case FreeBSD) more attractive and also productive to them, a GUI based administration is the key. I'm thinking about a browser (HTML) based GUI, that starts shell scripts on the host. It can be easily used over the web to administrate a server. It would allow Mac users (most webdesigner are) to stay in their enviroment (Mac Browser) when they access the Unix server, which gives them a familiar feel and builds up trust to the new system. This convinces more than any feature list, I guess. Summary: What's basically needed for a great webserver package is the webcluster software, hardware-monitoring support and a web based GUI for FreeBSD. All this would make a great turnkey solution based on FreeBSD, which could be offered additionally to the standard distribution. As webservers there could be a choice of Apache and Roxen (and others). You put in Floppy and CD, it asks you few things on startup (i.e. which webserver to install), and there you have a preconfigured, ready to use webserver with web based administration. You could even put it on a headless machine, eliminating the need for a keyboard or graphic adapter. It would attract all kinds of web design companies, ISP's, organizations and corporations or whoever else is in need of a reliable, redundant, scaleable and easy to maintain webserver (who's not?). Similar commercial products are available, but either are they not scaleable, don't allow SSL/ecommerce and dynamic content or they are in the highest price ranges (again not scaleable to small configurations). Offering this above mentioned functionality in a free OS would make it a real no brainer which system to choose, and in a lively and fast growing market like the Internet, it would help FreeBSD to gain widespread popularity in the webserver space, which can be considered as prestigious. Though the desktop/workstation segment is also interesting, I think this could be addressed with another specialized package of FreeBSD. Again, a web based GUI administration as found in certain webservers would help a lot to break the ice between mainstream users and Unix. HTML is quickly edited and makes it a really flexible and future proof choice for configurating FreeBSD (also remotely over any SSL capable browser). Best wishes Miguel Gilly PS: A less controversial and more business friendly mascot wouldn't hurt to promote FreeBSD (go ahead, hit me ;-) ) -- Bonsai Studio Web Design & E-Commerce http://www.bonsai-studio.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 9:54:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF3A15570 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id CAA08975; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:54:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990709025417.37827@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:54:17 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Miguel Gilly Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD as Webserver (long) References: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch>; from Miguel Gilly on Thu, Jul 08, 1999 at 05:01:37PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Miguel, thanks for so much well considered input and suggestions. Before everyone leaps up shouting "NO!" I'd like to challenge you to rethink part of it, because with a little shift in orientation it might be taken more seriously. See what you think. On Thu, Jul 08, 1999 at 05:01:37PM +0000, Miguel Gilly wrote: > 3. Web based configuration for FreeBSD > > To attract more non Unix folks (I had to push myself quite a bit to accept > the challenge of Unix, but I finally saw no alternative to a Unix-based > webserver), a GUI based configuration would be a great thing. This is also > a part where I would be willing and able to contribute. I'm sure such tools would be welcomed, should someone make them available. But you will find considerable resistance to providing a soft GUI option if the _reason_ for it is to attract people without unix skills and/or to let them take on admin responsibilities with too few skills. I have been dabbling with Mac OS X Server, and watched the Rhapsody discussions among Mac people about GUI versus CLI with interest. You would have seen it all too, I'm sure. There was a strong push for disabling the CLI by those who claimed everything could be done with a mouse and that that method would allow someone with little or no networking knowledge to take full responsibility for a server. I've heard of intelligent mice but this goes a little too far IMO :-) Even the Macintosh people were divided, and many of them frustrated the others by being incapable of imagining that a GUI couldn't do everything for them. Some of them cannot conceive of the volume and complexity of knowledge required to run a server properly when they have all of the options that a Unix platform makes available to mere humans. Both sides of that debate were extreme, nobody really listened or offered any slack to the other side, and it got nowhere. Now we have Mac OS X Server, which is basically a BSD UNIX, and all these poor bastards clicking frantically on dialog boxes hunting for missing options that would be just a few keystrokes away if they knew how. Then look at FreeBSD. We're at the opposite end of the spectrum. From its roots FreeBSD has always been a high performance system for high performance geeks by high performance geeks, and it just so happens to do other jobs (like web hosting) well at the same time. Now some people are starting to use FreeBSD as their first Unix, but honestly, we don't have the resources to support them as well as the others do. It is not the nature of FreeBSD that we actively attract those who need very basic hand-holding, though they are quite welcome if they turn up of their own volition knowing what they're in for. For a perspective on the current starting point requirements (my view), see http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/slow/ready.html Some people have suggested that those who are going to be busy learning how to use the basic tools and so on should play with Linux for a while first, where they can find a lot of other beginners to learn and experiment with and people with free time to handhold them. When they are ready for prime time, they can switch over to FreeBSD. That view seems rather extreme but it has been well argued. The few (human, voluntary) resources we have are concentrated in areas like development, the most essential documentation, and FreeBSD-specific support. We have more volunteers hoping to make their mark on improvements to FreeBSD in a business context than we have volunteers wanting to teach the fundamental generic skills that most have acquired elsewhere a long time ago. This contrasts sharply with Linux, for example. Is that a bad thing? Yes or no, it has made FreeBSD the system it is today. As someone who came to FreeBSD with few skills and had trouble finding out what to learn and how, I have sympathy with what you are saying. As someone who spends far too much time with Macintosh "technical" people and web designers, what you are saying makes me a little nervous. I hope you can use my comments to help tailor your arguments to be well received, because what you're talking about is a large cultural shift. > A webdesigner is very soon at a point where he considers to buy his > own webserver to have full control over his projects and colocates it > at an ISP. The cost of taking control is having the prerequisite skills. > Now, especially smaller companies don't have always a Unix savvy team > member, so they are tempted to go with one of those popular gadget > operating systems, And justifiably so. You can do a lot with a MacOS web server, and what it _allows_ you to do is only a tiny part of what you can do with something like FreeBSD. In order for busy mouse pushers to achieve what they do with Macintoshes without shooting themselves in the foot, choices are restricted. The philosophy encourages anyone to have a go. A huge amount of development resources go into achieving that aim. FreeBSD is the opposite. It lays on the ammunition and even provides maps with irridescent slippery arrows pointing to the magnetised foot as target. People who have the depth of knowledge and experience to take full control and responsibility can do so without interference from little infantilising pictures demanding that a certain step be taken next. > as they fear the complexity of Unix and expect > high support costs. The complexity and the costs you speak of are real. Some things don't cost money, but their costs are just as great. FreeBSD allows much freedom and doesn't cost money, but it's far from free. From a Macintosh user's perspective, you have to either be prepared to take on what could seem an enormous learning burden, or employ someone to do much of the work for you, and often both. The amount of learning required to set up and run a powerful system like FreeBSD and use all that it has to offer, would exceed the amount of learning they have invested in their primary activity. That's why Macintoshes are so popular, and so different. When you say things like > It would allow Mac users (most webdesigner are) to stay in their > enviroment (Mac Browser) when they access the Unix server, which > gives them a familiar feel and builds up trust to the new system. > This convinces more than any feature list, I guess. you're likely to get a few people nervous... maybe unnecessarily. Would that trust be false trust? It depends on the person and the context. If you're talking about "most web designers" they are less than enfatuated with the technical side, and without a change of aspirations I can't see them coping with a FreeBSD box alone, whatever GUI interfaces were provided. Try reading through something like 'man find' and imagining how you'd put all of that into a dialog box that anyone could use. Sometimes feeling nervous is a good thing, protecting us from dangers that are real or causing us to pull up and take necessary precautions. If we weren't instinctively afraid of snakes, heights, etc there'd be a lot less of us. Oh, maybe that'd be a good thing too :-) You can't make it simple without drastically reducing functionality, or safe without making it as limited as any beginner's Macintosh application. For what you're thinking of that might be OK, especially if there was a commandline person hanging around to do the hard stuff. But where you're going to have trouble is in convincing your typical FreeBSD developer type to spend volunteer hours producing something which has the effect of making FreeBSD do LESS, not more. That's a really hard one to sell around here. > Offering this above mentioned functionality in a free OS would make it a > real no brainer which system to choose, and in a lively and fast growing > market like the Internet, it would help FreeBSD to gain widespread > popularity in the webserver space, which can be considered as prestigious. > > Though the desktop/workstation segment is also interesting, I think this > could be addressed with another specialized package of FreeBSD. Again, a web > based GUI administration as found in certain webservers would help a lot to > break the ice between mainstream users and Unix. HTML is quickly edited and > makes it a really flexible and future proof choice for configurating FreeBSD > (also remotely over any SSL capable browser). I agree with you to a large extent, but you have to be very careful how you propose these things if you want people whose orientation is 180 degrees to your own to really understand what you're saying and run with it. You have to understand their needs and concerns before they will hear yours clearly. > PS: A less controversial and more business friendly mascot wouldn't hurt to > promote FreeBSD (go ahead, hit me ;-) ) [raises barbed tail] Thwack! :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 11:32:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3CC14C8F for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:32:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07033; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:31:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:31:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Miguel Gilly Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD as Webserver (long) In-Reply-To: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > This is a _long_ message about FreeBSD as Webserver, Hardware-Monitoring > support and a Web based configuration of FreeBSD. and this reply will have much snipping :-) > 1. Redundant, scaleable remote webserver clustering FreeBSD can certainly do this - finding the info on how-to will be hard however, especially for someone who only wants to "design" webpages. See Yahoo. > [big snip - I have nothing to offer here on point 2] > 3. Web based configuration for FreeBSD > > To attract more non Unix folks (I had to push myself quite a bit to > accept the challenge of Unix, but I finally saw no alternative to a > Unix-based webserver), a GUI based configuration would be a great > thing. This is also a part where I would be willing and able to > contribute. What part of FreeBSD do you want GUI-configurable? There are a number of system administration tools to help configure FreeBSD: SAM (http://homepage.esoterica.pt/~jardim/Index.html) freebsd-admin (http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/~brian/freebsd-admin/) webmin The first 2 are in development (SAM apparently only works on 3.*-RELEASE or 4.*-RELEASE for some reason - ie, it doesn't work on 3.*-STABLE). freebsd-admin is being retooled at present and only an older version is available. Webmin is an admin program which helps configure a box through the web server running on that machine - it can also use SSL to keep things secure. It's in the ports (/usr/ports/sysutils/webmin) and I'm planning on writing an article on webmin (and the others) for DaemonNews (and it should be out in the August issue). If you want a configuration tool for Apache, there is a Tk-based tool, but it doesn't appear to be in the ports (this would be trivial - it just needs a patch to point to wish correctly as I recall) - it can be found at: http://eunuchs.org/linux/TkApache/ It almost certainly can't be used to twiddle all the best knobs however. I've only ever played around w/ it a little bit however. > I'm thinking about a browser (HTML) based GUI, that starts shell > scripts on the host. It can be easily used over the web to > administrate a server. It would allow Mac users (most webdesigner are) > to stay in their enviroment (Mac Browser) when they access the Unix > server, which gives them a familiar feel and builds up trust to the > new system. This convinces more than any feature list, I guess. See webmin above. Note as Sue said in her reply that the command line offers much greater flexibility than any "simple" gui ever will. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 11:32:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from luna.pingnet.ch (luna.pingnet.ch [194.148.8.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BE6155B6 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mgilly@bonsai-studio.com) Received: from [192.168.1.2] (pop-zh-6-dialup-240.freesurf.ch [194.230.29.240]) by luna.pingnet.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02360 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:35:45 GMT Message-Id: <199907081835.SAA02360@luna.pingnet.ch> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 20:31:17 +0000 Subject: From: "Miguel Gilly" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bonsai Studio: Web Design and More http://www.bonsai-studio.com Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3014310677_1290519_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3014310677_1290519_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit auth c0b955c5 unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy mgilly@bonsai-studio.com --MS_Mac_OE_3014310677_1290519_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <no subject> auth c0b955c5 unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy mg= illy@bonsai-studio.com
 --MS_Mac_OE_3014310677_1290519_MIME_Part-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 13: 1:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E42150E6 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:01:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-153.thuntek.net [207.66.52.153]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA23165 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:01:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <378502C8.A50E013E@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 13:58:00 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Benchmarking web apps on Apache Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chip Turner has done some basic groundwork on benching mod_perl vs. other methodologies. He claims that FBSD is 10% faster than That Other Unix-Like OS, even as he admits that his company specializes in That Other One... http://perl.pattern.net/bench -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 13: 9:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D6B15512 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:09:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA270949371; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:56:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:56:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache In-Reply-To: <378502C8.A50E013E@thuntek.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > http://perl.pattern.net/bench Respectfully, this is full of shit. There was a discussion on #FreeBSD I believe about this, and the major problems were: (1) Client and server being run on the same machine (2) Testing through the loopback device (3) Apples and oranges. where one code used three functions to print three lines in other code it was done with ("foo\nbar\nbaz\n") and one function, IIRC. Alex Perel , I believe had more on this. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 13:19:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43CA151B9 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-153.thuntek.net [207.66.52.153]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA29566; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:18:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <378506C7.BB772E44@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 14:15:03 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench > [opinion of smell omitted] :-) > (1) Client and server being run on the same machine > (2) Testing through the loopback device > (3) Apples and oranges. > I wasn't concerned with his methodology, Bill, although I noticed the three points you make in a cursory glance. I would suspect it's #1 that's the reason FBSD works better. My only reason for the cross-post is that FreeBSD came out better. If we recall the vanished gartner group report, they came out with a more than 15% improvement for FreeBSD. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 13:32:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A30C14FF9 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id QAA21158; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma020958; Thu, 8 Jul 99 16:31:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:31:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache In-reply-to: <378506C7.BB772E44@thuntek.net> To: Donald Wilde Cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hold up a sec. FreeBSD did NOT perform as well. Check the stats again. The only things FreeBSD beat the other OS in was serving STATIC pages (and mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. SB On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > I wasn't concerned with his methodology, Bill, although I noticed the > three points you make in a cursory glance. I would suspect it's #1 > that's the reason FBSD works better. My only reason for the cross-post > is that FreeBSD came out better. If we recall the vanished gartner group > report, they came out with a more than 15% improvement for FreeBSD. > > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 13:37:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE3315526 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA281391053; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:24:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:24:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Seth Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Seth wrote: > Hold up a sec. FreeBSD did NOT perform as well. Check the stats again. > The only things FreeBSD beat the other OS in was serving STATIC pages (and > mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) > showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. > > On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > > > I wasn't concerned with his methodology, Bill, although I noticed the > > three points you make in a cursory glance. I would suspect it's #1 > > that's the reason FBSD works better. My only reason for the cross-post > > is that FreeBSD came out better. If we recall the vanished gartner group > > report, they came out with a more than 15% improvement for FreeBSD. I'd also like to add that we'd cry foul as loud as anyone if these "benchmarks" showed any other OS beating us. (I am, I guess) Let's not be hypocritical and shout from the tops of rooftops any benchmark that makes us look better unless we're really sure the benchmark is legit. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 14:59:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358601551D for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-138.thuntek.net [207.66.52.138]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id PAA24432; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37851E70.49E7FD01@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 15:56:00 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Seth , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > Let's not be hypocritical and shout from the tops of rooftops any > benchmark that makes us look better unless we're really sure the benchmark > is legit. > Very good point, Bill. U 2, Seth. I asked Chip to do it again with cleaner code and two systems, we'll see if he does. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 16:33:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from impatience.valueclick.com (impatience.valueclick.com [216.64.159.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A51214EB6 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ask@valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 9763 invoked by uid 500); 8 Jul 1999 23:33:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 23:33:09 -0000 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: Seth Cc: Donald Wilde , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG tOn Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Seth wrote: ... > mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) > showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. Nah, get real. If you're concerned about performance, cgi will be your last option. :-) - ask (doing almost all of his hits with apache/mod_perl on FreeBSD) -- ask bjoern hansen - more than 14M impressions per day, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 18: 7:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E8A14E02 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA28306; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:07:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37854160.AF450F30@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:25:04 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Gilly Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD as Webserver (long) References: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Miguel Gilly wrote: > > PS: A less controversial and more business friendly mascot wouldn't hurt to > promote FreeBSD (go ahead, hit me ;-) ) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Win 98 source code? Eight monkeys, five minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 8 22:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1516614CEC for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23817; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:40:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <37858B5B.8BFE535B@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:40:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Gilly Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD as Webserver (long) References: <199907081506.PAA09942@luna.pingnet.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Miguel Gilly wrote: > > This is a _long_ message about FreeBSD as Webserver, Hardware-Monitoring > support and a Web based configuration of FreeBSD. Hi Miguel. I'm going to toss in a few comments here, but before I do, you should go read my "opening remarks", prepared well in advance of your message, at: http://www.daemonnews.org/199907/d-advocate.html This may enlighten you a bit as to the current state of "gui admin" tools for FreeBSD. This is not to say that none exist, but may give you some insight as to why the pickings are somewhat slim. Let me add that what Sue has written on this topic covered the state of the art pretty well. Administering a UNIX system is much more complex than administering a MacOS system because MacOS was designed to drive a small computer used by "the rest of us" while UNIX was designed by alpha geeks to serve the needs of alpha geeks. Sticking a GUI on top of FreeBSD isn't going to make FreeBSD easier to administer, it's just going to make the 3 or 4 tasks the GUI is actually capable of performing a little less intimidating to GUI users. The number and variety of tasks require to keep a UNIX system humming along is pretty much a constant for any given UNIX system, and GUI-fying *all* of those tasks is a gargantuan undertaking that even Computer Associates won't completely bite off. That said, you should certainly take a look at Cybernet NetMAX, which may just provide what you're looking for. http://www.netmax.com/ As an aside, why would a fledgling web designer determined to build his or her own hosting service NOT want to partner with a good geek? Geeks are people too, whether web designers think so or not, and have many valuable traits to bring to a partnership, like being willing to trade long hours of babysitting web servers in return for some killer bandwidth. ;^) > 1. Redundant, scaleable remote webserver clustering Got that one nailed, too. Eddieware provides exactly this service, and more. Let's take it straight from the horses mouth: Eddie is a 100% software solution written primarily in the functional programming language Erlang (www.erlang.org) and is available for Solaris, Linux and FreeBSD, with Windows NT to come soon. Eddie provides advanced automatic traffic management and configuration of geographically distributed server sites, consisting of one or more Local Area Networks. See http://wwweddie.serc.rmit.edu.au/what.html for a full discussion of what Eddieware is, and http://www.eddieware.org/ in general for the full skinny. Eddieware is distributed under the Erlang Public License, which allows you royalty-free distribution rights and the ability to combine Eddieware into larger works. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 9 0:30: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1F914DB5 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:30:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id QAA24888; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:29:46 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37859F1F.3CDAB53A@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:05:03 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ask Bjoern Hansen Cc: Seth , Donald Wilde , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: > > tOn Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Seth wrote: > > ... > > mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) > > showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. > > Nah, get real. If you're concerned about performance, cgi will be your > last option. Err... Since cgi are widely used, you might want to consider that many people consider *CGI PERFOMANCE* to be very important. It's not a question of how to extract most performance out of it, but how much performance the system will give to what you actually have to serve. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Win 98 source code? Eight monkeys, five minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 9 0:30:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F76151D4 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id QAA24870; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:29:42 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37859E8A.9DF700CD@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 16:02:34 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache References: <378506C7.BB772E44@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > I wasn't concerned with his methodology, Bill, although I noticed the > three points you make in a cursory glance. I would suspect it's #1 > that's the reason FBSD works better. My only reason for the cross-post > is that FreeBSD came out better. If we recall the vanished gartner group > report, they came out with a more than 15% improvement for FreeBSD. It came better for static pages, lost in dynamic ones. Anyway, that benchmark ain't worth the bandwidth spent downloading the results. At the very least, we don't know how Apache was compiled in each one. It might be just a matter of compiler optimization... We also don't see how each machine was set up/tuned, so you can just imagine what difference would a standard FreeBSD vs a standard Linux mount for the filesystem would do to performance... Really, a friend of mine, with whom I have friendly flame wars on Linux vs BSD, sent that to me, and I just had to blast the hell out of him for wasting my time with it. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Given infinite time, 100 monkeys could type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Win 98 source code? Eight monkeys, five minutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 9 7:21:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F44155F0 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 07:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id KAA27643; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xmab27478; Fri, 9 Jul 99 10:21:21 -0400 Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 10:19:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache In-reply-to: To: Ask Bjoern Hansen Cc: Donald Wilde , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Regardless, the performance data are not in our favor. SB On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote: > tOn Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Seth wrote: > > ... > > mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) > > showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. > > Nah, get real. If you're concerned about performance, cgi will be your > last option. > > :-) > > - ask (doing almost all of his hits with apache/mod_perl on FreeBSD) > > -- > ask bjoern hansen - > more than 14M impressions per day, > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 9 13:36:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC9A14DF2 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id NAA21144; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA07025; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:36:27 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23827; Fri, 9 Jul 99 13:36:25 PDT Message-Id: <37865D49.1F23D464@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 14:36:25 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Embed Together: The Case For BSD In Network Appliances References: <37810B96.66135FD6@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > I nice article, mentioning PicoBSD ! > > http://www.performancecomputing.com/features/9906of2.shtml Very nice. All the arguments he makes for e/BSD apply equally well to picoBSD of course. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message