From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 0:44:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAB4151F9 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA87738 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907120742.DAA87738@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:42:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Fellow FreeBSD'ers, I would just like to say that it irks me to death that I must spend $16,500.00 (canadian) to take a 23 week long immersion course to be "prepared" for MCSE, Oracle and A+ certification. Although the school (private) I am going to will touch on solaris for a whole week, many people I have talked to on IRC tell me I am wasting my time. However I am not. Here, in Toronto at least. Many companies looking to hire people want to see 1) a university degree or 2) a ton of experience they can call and get references on the applicants. 3) Certification from recognized systems (for a lack of a better term). It would be great if FreeBSD would come up with a program (self study with exams or online at times that would coincide with what ever it takes to make it worth FreeBSD coordinators time) that has imbedded, the very least to which a person would be able to run a network consisting of a FreeBSD backbone (meaning FreeBSD would be doing the most important jobs for networking, mail and interoperability between other OS's), implementing shares for MS workstations like Samba, on the FreeBSD machines. And so on. I am pretty sure some key or instrumental people are on this list. And it is to you, that this letter is addressed. This FreeBSD certification (the learning and the material) should not be for free. It should be at a fair market price. It would at first be hard to implement but not impossible, it would make FreeBSD a more looked at product by the big wigs at companies that decided what they will use for operating systems. Linux is starting (or has already done so) this very soon. I don't say this to keep up with the "Jones" but rather give those of us (not totally competent) a chance to present ourselves as technically proficient to prospective client or to a company as a position for a career. I will only assume that most of you on this list are quite proficient in the usage and ability of FreeBSD. As a user of this great and awesome product, I would love to put on a business card "FreeBSD Certified" with the ability to show my records of passed tests to the person I am trying to work for or sell my services to. I truly hope that the people in the decision making group will really take this seriously and come up with a starting list of what would be needed for any specific level of FreeBSD certification. Lanny Baron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 1:23:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE8F14ECC for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 01:23:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA23954; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:23:14 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990712182309.08163@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:23:10 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: lnb@cybertouch.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again References: <199907120742.DAA87738@freedom.cybertouch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199907120742.DAA87738@freedom.cybertouch.org>; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 03:42:58AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 03:42:58AM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > Hello Fellow FreeBSD'ers, > I would just like to say that it irks me to death that I must spend > $16,500.00 (canadian) to take a 23 week long immersion course to > be "prepared" for MCSE, Oracle and A+ certification. Although the > school (private) I am going to will touch on solaris for a whole week, > many people I have talked to on IRC tell me I am wasting my time. Depending on what you want to do and what you've already done, they could very well be right. No piece of paper from anywhere is enough without lots of demonstrable recent experience, unless it's very different at your end of the world. > I truly hope that the people in the decision making group will really > take this seriously and come up with a starting list of what would > be needed for any specific level of FreeBSD certification. Sure, that's my field. I can start the shopping list off for you. First you need to develop the course and assessment procedures. To do that you need a budget with enough hundreds of $K in it to employ a team of training researchers, course design experts, subject experts, someone to manage and someone to support the team, an office to run from and their overheads and expenses. When it's all worked out, then you start working on the course materials, another long slow process involving highly paid people. Then you publicise it and try to convince people to pay however many dollars they need to pay to recoup the above costs in a reasonable time. Then try to convince employers that the paper means something. (In Australia, and possibly other countries, unless it was competency based, official recognition as a vocational qualification wouldn't be considered) I'm not saying that any particular course is worth the money, but they do cost a lot to put together and deliver, and that's after the relevant competencies have been determined precisely and the assessment framework has been put together. Any idea who would pay for this to be created? And how they'd expect to get their money back? Or would it be cobbled together by untrained volunteers in their spare time and treated by the industry as such? Is there a middle way? -- Regards, -*Sue*- (with tongue only half in cheek) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 6:36:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B22914DBE for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22993 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:39:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907121339.IAA22993@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 08:36:12 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 08:35:55 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:35:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <19990712182309.08163@welearn.com.au> References: <199907120742.DAA87738@freedom.cybertouch.org>; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 03:42:58AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 03:42:58AM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > I would just like to say that it irks me to death that I must spend > > $16,500.00 (canadian) to take a 23 week long immersion course to be > > "prepared" for MCSE, Oracle and A+ certification. Although the school > > (private) I am going to will touch on solaris for a whole week, many > > people I have talked to on IRC tell me I am wasting my time. Free adivice is generally worth what you pay for it. Many times advice you pay for is worth no more. And conditions change with markets and local laws. Your mileage may vary. Lots of anti-certification people are motivated by the sour-grapes syndrome... "I can't get it, therefore it must not be any good". And many people overlook what the certifications were intended to do. The training course for the granddaddy of the lot, the Novell CNE, was intended to take a person who was already a computer expert and make that person an expert with NetWare. It was not intended to make a high school dropout marketable. Nor to help a person in a mid-life crisis find a new career. This is not to say those aren't worthwhile goals, just that they aren't the goals of the training or testing programs. The testing programs were designed to insure employers that prospective employees know how to use the systems they are tested and certified upon. The employers liked the idea, and then everyone wanted certification. Jobs started requiring certification. Even jobs that really didn't need certification because it was such an easy thing to screen for when looking at resumes or cv's. Which lead in turn to quick "shake and bake" classes where in just a week or two you could learn to pass the certification tests. Even if you were a dolt. This has weakened the perceived value of the certification to many technical people and to some employers. I will point out that no training course and certification - by itself - is sufficient. Have you ever had a bad doctor? A bad lawyer? And both of them were the product of a much more rigourous educational and certification process than the computer industry does, or can, insist upon. So, is the training worth it? It depends on your goals. Are you trying to just get certified so you can get a job? Then a shake'n'bake course could be a good investment. Just don't take it too seriously once you're done. However, 23 weeks doesn't sound like a shake'n'bake course. (A note to non-USA residents.... "Shake'n'bake" is a commercial seasoning mixture. You put into a baggie with chicken or pork chops and shake. The seasoning covers the meat, which you remove and bake. Quick and easy. Almost like cooking. Many soldiers in the US Army refer to the Officer Canidate School as "shake'n'bake", a deragatory term intended to convey that in 8 weeks they don't teach enough to make an officer useful. Graduates are referred to as "another shake'n'bake".) If you want to learn what you are doing, a longer course is a good idea. A real danger in commercial courses is that it's too easy to pick up the mind set of the vendor. After Novel courses you'll know that NetWare rulez! After Microsoft courses you'll know that NT will blow away NetWare and Unix. Oracle will probably teach you that Sybase drools. And so on. Regaining one's equilibrium can take a while. A common comment in this forum with regards to FreeBSD books is that "Unix books are FreeBSD books, because FreeBSD is Unix." Cool. I believe there are courses that lead to certification as Unix administrators. Those courses should do the trick for FreeBSD as well. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: I BM, You BM, They BM, We all BM for IBM. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 8:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from thneed.ubergeeks.com (thneed.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5D315016 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by thneed.ubergeeks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13231; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:23:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) X-Authentication-Warning: thneed.ubergeeks.com: adrian owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:23:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Lanny Baron Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907120742.DAA87738@freedom.cybertouch.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Lanny Baron wrote: > Hello Fellow FreeBSD'ers, > I would just like to say that it irks me to death that I must spend > $16,500.00 (canadian) to take a 23 week long immersion course to > be "prepared" for MCSE, Oracle and A+ certification. Although the > school (private) I am going to will touch on solaris for a whole week, > many people I have talked to on IRC tell me I am wasting my time. > > However I am not. Here, in Toronto at least. Many companies > looking to hire people want to see 1) a university degree or 2) a ton > of experience they can call and get references on the applicants. 3) > Certification from recognized systems (for a lack of a better term). Well, you might check out the USENIX certification debate. I'm of two minds on the whole issue, but I'm sure that any certification that they settle upon would apply pretty well to FreeBSD. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 9:14:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F85214EBF; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA14392; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:13:49 +0300 (EEST) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:13:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Chris Costello Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 6 Jul 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > It seems someone who seems to be rather inexperienced has done > some benchmarks with FreeBSD against Linux. They're so > amazingly -- well -- stupid. > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? > -- > Chris Costello > The whole is the sum of its parts, plus one or more bugs Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 10:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A577150C2; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id TAA19933; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:20:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id TAA15994; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990712193432.16491@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:34:32 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Narvi Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks References: <19990706150944.I4158@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 07:13:49PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Narvi writes: > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > > > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? The complaint is: badly done benchmark. Who cares if "we" won or not ? It's a discredit for serious operating systems :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 11:18:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D20F1511B for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA04199; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA16183; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:17:17 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA18210; Mon, 12 Jul 99 11:17:15 PDT Message-Id: <378A312D.ACEAFA07@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:17:17 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Lanny Baron , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > Hello Fellow FreeBSD'ers, > > I would just like to say that it irks me to death that I must spend > > $16,500.00 (canadian) to take a 23 week long immersion course to > > be "prepared" for MCSE, Oracle and A+ certification. Although the > > school (private) I am going to will touch on solaris for a whole week, > > many people I have talked to on IRC tell me I am wasting my time. > > > > However I am not. Here, in Toronto at least. Many companies > > looking to hire people want to see 1) a university degree or 2) a ton > > of experience they can call and get references on the applicants. 3) > > Certification from recognized systems (for a lack of a better term). > > Well, you might check out the USENIX certification debate. I'm of > two minds on the whole issue, but I'm sure that any certification that they > settle upon would apply pretty well to FreeBSD. There are other "professional training" organizations that teach classes in UNIX programming, system administration, network administration, etc. All of these apply to FreeBSD in the general sense, though I doubt many of them use FreeBSD in the classroom exercises. You could easily take such a class then run home each night to re-implement the exercises on FreeBSD. Personally I fail to understand why having a college degree is viewed with such disdain by so many of the people asking for FreeBSD certification. What's wrong with educating yourself? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 11:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mom.hooked.net (mom.hooked.net [206.80.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AA915025 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from fish.hooked.net (garbanzo@fish.hooked.net [206.80.6.48]) by mom.hooked.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA16575; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda Reply-To: Alex Zepeda To: Mike Avery Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907121339.IAA22993@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > Lots of anti-certification people are motivated by the sour-grapes > syndrome... "I can't get it, therefore it must not be any good". And > many people overlook what the certifications were intended to do. Not hardly, TekMetrics offers free certification; try it out (www.tekmetrics.com). It's a fucking joke. Not only does their whole registration process fail to work properly (hey, I got a transcript id of 0; which is apparently invalid :) ), but their tests are a joke. For the hell of it, I took the OOP/C++ and Linux Administration tests. I know less about the anal retentive univ. level C++ "science of desiging a program" than I do about Linux; so it's easier for me to grab questions about the Linux test and say they were stupid. But considering that they had a handful of questions (out of 65) that related purely to C, I was disappointed. The Linux Administration test was far worse. It covered a lot of topics most, if not all, garden variety admins would never need to know (namely X) in depth; and had a single question pertaining to Apache, one to Samba, and two about filesystem names. The crowning blow was the last question, which asked about the difference between Gnome and KDE. I haven't taken any pay certifications (well, gosh, on a student's budget that comes as no suprise to me). But, I figure, the comercial ones can't be that much more useful; and if your employer/employer-to-be really wants you to be certified, they might even offer to pay the costs related with getting you certified. Also, I sincerely hope that Tekmetrics never, ever, creates a FreeBSD certification test, it would only be comparable to a black eye. - alex You better believe that marijuana can cause castration. Just suppose your girlfriend gets the munchies! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 12: 9:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F19814F5A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA23345; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:12:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907121912.OAA23345@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 14:08:52 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 14:08:32 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Alex Zepeda Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:08:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199907121339.IAA22993@hostigos.otherwhen.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 Jul 99, at 11:36, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > > > Lots of anti-certification people are motivated by the sour-grapes > > syndrome... "I can't get it, therefore it must not be any good". And > > many people overlook what the certifications were intended to do. > Not hardly, TekMetrics offers free certification; try it out > (www.tekmetrics.com). It's a fucking joke. Not only does their whole > registration process fail to work properly (hey, I got a transcript id of > 0; which is apparently invalid :) ), but their tests are a joke. I think that was covered in my first paragraph... "Free adivice is generally worth what you pay for it. Many times advice you pay for is worth no more. And conditions change with markets and local laws. Your mileage may vary." The certifications in question were the MSCE, Oracle and A+ tests. Overall, whatever their real merits, the MSCE and Oracle certifications do help one get a job. And the A+ helps, but not as much. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: ROTFL: Rats on Thorazine Feel Lazy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14: 6:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C471015044 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01182; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:11:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Mike Avery Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907121912.OAA23345@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > The certifications in question were the MSCE, Oracle and A+ tests. > Overall, whatever their real merits, the MSCE and Oracle > certifications do help one get a job. And the A+ helps, but not as > much. Yes, but aside from publically expressing my disdain that things like Tekmetrics exist (and were possibly interested in FreeBSD); I think that most certifications are completely bogus. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:38:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579D21524C for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23480; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:40:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907122140.QAA23480@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 16:36:30 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 16:36:00 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Alex Zepeda Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:35:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199907121912.OAA23345@hostigos.otherwhen.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 Jul 99, at 13:11, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > > The certifications in question were the MSCE, Oracle and A+ tests. > > Overall, whatever their real merits, the MSCE and Oracle certifications > > do help one get a job. And the A+ helps, but not as much. > Yes, but aside from publically expressing my disdain that things like > Tekmetrics exist (and were possibly interested in FreeBSD); I think that > most certifications are completely bogus. In the end, Tekmetrics will live or die on their own merits, much like MindCru^haft. As will the other certifications. Are they bogus? It depends on your needs, and your expectations. One very critical issue is... what does it mean to be a Unix/Linux/FreeBSD/NT/NetWare/WhatEver administrator? It means different things to different people. Some admins spend most of their days abusing users. Some spend their days constructing and re-constructing servers. Some specialize in communications issues. And on and on and on. So, any test will miss some areas that you consider essential. Or that I consider essential. Or both. As long as well intentioned, capable people have trouble agreeing what it means to be a network or system manager, they will also have trouble agreeing on what constitutes a meaningful test. If I were an employer, I'd view certifications much the same way that I view college diplomas - as a tangible indication that the person applying for the job has been able to learn specific skills well enough to pass specific tests, and that this suggests that they will be able to learn whatever I need them to know to do the job at hand. I don't view either a diploma or a certification as an indication that someone can already do the job. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Wouldn't it be nice if, just occasionally, I could deal with people who are far enough up the evolutionary ladder to have opposing thumbs To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:38:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A93A15180 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA91810; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:36:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Mike Avery Cc: Alex Zepeda , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907121912.OAA23345@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With all due respect, I totally disagree with Mike. I got to know the system administrator for @home.com in Canada. He told me that with certification like Sun for example, they would hire me up in a flash. He asked me if FreeBSD has certification. I told him, not to my knowledge at this time. Mike it's quite possible (as I do not have the honor of knowing your personally) that you have quite a bit of experience in the IT field and/or you have a degree from a University. The degree could be in basket weaving. However, it clearly says, Mike can sit on his tush and do what it takes to get this piece of paper. That in itself is worth a lot. Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:43:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB4E14D30 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA91855; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:43:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Mike Avery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In no way was I referring to TekMetrics. I was referring to FreeBSD itself offering the certification and the course that would lead up to it (if you needed the background material). I still hope that the FreeBSD Project will seriously consider a REAL certification that is not easy to get, requires sufficient knowledge on running the system, complete networking (deep level of TCP/IP), mail for an organization...etc... This could also lead to different levels of Certs. depending on what route you take. Lanny On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > Lots of anti-certification people are motivated by the sour-grapes > syndrome... "I can't get it, therefore it must not be any good". And > many people overlook what the certifications were intended to do. Not hardly, TekMetrics offers free certification; try it out (www.tekmetrics.com). It's a fucking joke. Not only does their whole registration process fail to work properly (hey, I got a transcript id of 0; which is apparently invalid :) ), but their tests are a joke. For the hell of it, I took the OOP/C++ and Linux Administration tests. I know less about the anal retentive univ. level C++ "science of desiging a program" than I do about Linux; so it's easier for me to grab questions about the Linux test and say they were stupid. But considering that they had a handful of questions (out of 65) that related purely to C, I was disappointed. The Linux Administration test was far worse. It covered a lot of topics most, if not all, garden variety admins would never need to know (namely X) in depth; and had a single question pertaining to Apache, one to Samba, and two about filesystem names. The crowning blow was the last question, which asked about the difference between Gnome and KDE. I haven't taken any pay certifications (well, gosh, on a student's budget that comes as no suprise to me). But, I figure, the comercial ones can't be that much more useful; and if your employer/employer-to-be really wants you to be certified, they might even offer to pay the costs related with getting you certified. Also, I sincerely hope that Tekmetrics never, ever, creates a FreeBSD certification test, it would only be comparable to a black eye. - alex You better believe that marijuana can cause castration. Just suppose your girlfriend gets the munchies! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:48: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-39.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B66515271 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:47:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA53331; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:45:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Lanny Baron Cc: Mike Avery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike it's quite possible (as I do not have the honor of knowing your > personally) that you have quite a bit of experience in the IT field and/or > you have a degree from a University. The degree could be in basket > weaving. However, it clearly says, Mike can sit on his tush and do what it > takes to get this piece of paper. No it's not. I for instance consider myself reasonably adept at maintaining a FreeBSD or Linux box, and I've had no formal training, same with C and C++. I don't think that a one size fits all test will ever be able to accurately represent the skill level of a test taker, and often times it simply represents that they were able to pay enough money to take the test. Some tests may be better than others; but really the only worthwhile test, is how well you preform on the given job. > That in itself is worth a lot. For instance take the Golden State Exams (a California brain fart of sorts). I got recognition with "Honors" for taking the Biology test for basically not blowing anything up during the test. Standardized testing and certification is bogus, some more than others. Sadly, PHBs just don't get it. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:48:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-39.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBED15180 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:48:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA53336; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:48:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Lanny Baron Cc: Mike Avery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In no way was I referring to TekMetrics. I was referring to FreeBSD itself > offering the certification and the course that would lead up to it (if you > needed the background material). I still hope that the FreeBSD Project > will seriously consider a REAL certification that is not easy to get, > requires sufficient knowledge on running the system, complete networking > (deep level of TCP/IP), mail for an organization...etc... > > This could also lead to different levels of Certs. depending on what > route you take. Sure, I know you weren't. But, that was just an example of how certification can go horribly wrong. Even disregarding Tekmetrics, there are so many different applications for FreeBSD administration (are you admining a lab where students will be using X, a mission critical server, or a small web site, or just a variety of different servers at an ISP). To accurately assure competency with FreeBSD, there'd have to be an infinite number of tests. However, I'd be willing to print up some certs at Kinkos for anyone who can write a Hello World program that compiles under FreeBSD. And hell, I'll stand by the certs too and perhaps even create a snazzy logo for web pages. :) - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:53:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4F6C14E80 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA91941; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:52:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:52:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Mike Avery Cc: Alex Zepeda , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907122140.QAA23480@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As long as well intentioned, capable people have trouble agreeing what it means to be a network or system manager, they will also have trouble agreeing on what constitutes a meaningful test. If I were an employer, I'd view certifications much the same way that I view college diplomas - as a tangible indication that the person applying for the job has been able to learn specific skills well enough to pass specific tests, and that this suggests that they will be able to learn whatever I need them to know to do the job at hand. I don't view either a diploma or a certification as an indication that someone can already do the job. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * I aggree with you with respect to differentiation between people viewing on what a person can do or what the person is truly qualified for. But then, would you go a person who says he/she can preform open heart surgery yet does not have any certification indicating the practitioner has recognized certification in surgery? Trust me to the extent that without either a degree (usually in Computer Science, a lot of experience [ verifiable] or certification, you won't get any type of good job/career here. Companies that even get you contract jobs won't touch you with out the above. Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 14:59:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4EE515271 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA23501; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:01:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907122201.RAA23501@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 16:58:17 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 16:57:56 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Lanny Baron Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:57:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: Alex Zepeda , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199907121912.OAA23345@hostigos.otherwhen.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 Jul 99, at 17:36, Lanny Baron wrote: > With all due respect, I totally disagree with Mike. I got to know the > system administrator for @home.com in Canada. He told me that with > certification like Sun for example, they would hire me up in a flash. He > asked me if FreeBSD has certification. I told him, not to my knowledge at > this time. Since you didn't quote any of my message, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or Alex. Alex thinks all certifications are bogus. I think they have limited usefulness, especially in getting a job. I also think some certifications are worth more in some markets than others. Will a "Mr. GoodWrench" certification help get someone a job at the hospital? Or a MSCE certificate in most Unix shops? Or a Sun certification in a NetWare shop? The first decision to make is, "What do I want to do?" The second is, "Which, if any, certifications will help me? Either professionally, or in just getting a job?" The next question is whether it's worth the effort. In some markets, it's not only worth it, it's all but essential, whether you like it or not. If that bothers you, ignore those markets. > Mike it's quite possible (as I do not have the honor of knowing your > personally) that you have quite a bit of experience in the IT field and/or > you have a degree from a University. The degree could be in basket > weaving. However, it clearly says, Mike can sit on his tush and do what it > takes to get this piece of paper. > That in itself is worth a lot. I have a degree. In photography, with minors in philosophy, psychology, and industrial education. (Don't ask... it's a long story.) About the time I got my degree, the first micro kits became available. So, I also took some programming courses so I'd be able to program the silly thing when it was built. And then I worked for years as a programmer. As you said, the degree shows I am willing to learn. And that is worth a lot. Industry certifications say much the same thing. That a person is willing to learn more about their profession. I strongly feel that the trend towards certification mills decreases the value of the certification. The original goal of the certifications was to take a person that is already "computer literate" (I HATE that phrase) and train them in THIS particular technology, whether that's a database, an OS, a NOS, router management, a language, or whatever and then test them to certify that they knew enough to be useful. When the certificate becomes the goal in and of itself, and when the training isn't designed to teach you to understand the technology, but instead focuses on how to pass the flippin' test, then the student and the company that hires that student are being ripped off. However..... there IS a simple answer. When you are hiring someone, don't filter just on two, three, and four letter acronyms. Let degrees and certification be part of the overall evaluation. Take the finalists on a tour of the place. Show 'em your setup. Ask 'em questions. If you're any good, you'll soon know if they know what you need 'em to. And if they have the background to pick it up quickly enough to be of use. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 15: 2: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958F91529E for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA92025; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:01:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Mike Avery , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > In no way was I referring to TekMetrics. I was referring to FreeBSD itself > offering the certification and the course that would lead up to it (if you > needed the background material). I still hope that the FreeBSD Project > will seriously consider a REAL certification that is not easy to get, > requires sufficient knowledge on running the system, complete networking > (deep level of TCP/IP), mail for an organization...etc... > > This could also lead to different levels of Certs. depending on what > route you take. Sure, I know you weren't. But, that was just an example of how certification can go horribly wrong. Even disregarding Tekmetrics, there are so many different applications for FreeBSD administration (are you admining a lab where students will be using X, a mission critical server, or a small web site, or just a variety of different servers at an ISP). To accurately assure competency with FreeBSD, there'd have to be an infinite number of tests. However, I'd be willing to print up some certs at Kinkos for anyone who can write a Hello World program that compiles under FreeBSD. And hell, I'll stand by the certs too and perhaps even create a snazzy logo for web pages. :) - alex It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up with programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its own certification. It may not go far right away, but down the road, as with most good products, it would succeed. Tell me, do you think certification from Cisco is useless as well? As for what aspects of FreeBSD in terms of knowledge with what you said, that's just it. Different types of certification for different areas of knowledge. Someone who is into programming is different from one who is into networking. Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 15:11:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E56F15283 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@freedom.cybertouch.org) Received: from localhost (lnb@localhost) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA92045; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:09:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Lanny Baron To: Mike Avery Cc: Alex Zepeda , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907122201.RAA23501@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: City: Thorhill Province: Ontario Postal: L4J 6X4 Tel: 905-763-1900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I agree with you in part. Try this though. Send a resume to top financial or Insurance companies here and see the reply you get without any type of formal training and/or degree/certification. And yes you are right, a chef has certification...but not the type needed to take over a sys admin job. Of course if you get into a small company where you meet the sys admin, he/she will know in a few minutes whether or not you know what is needed. On the other hand, a human resources person, may have a hard time knowing much more than turning on and off, their workstation (and even that can be a major feat for some of them). Lanny On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Mike Avery wrote: On 12 Jul 99, at 17:36, Lanny Baron wrote: > With all due respect, I totally disagree with Mike. I got to know the > system administrator for @home.com in Canada. He told me that with > certification like Sun for example, they would hire me up in a flash. He > asked me if FreeBSD has certification. I told him, not to my knowledge at > this time. Since you didn't quote any of my message, I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me or Alex. Alex thinks all certifications are bogus. I think they have limited usefulness, especially in getting a job. I also think some certifications are worth more in some markets than others. Will a "Mr. GoodWrench" certification help get someone a job at the hospital? Or a MSCE certificate in most Unix shops? Or a Sun certification in a NetWare shop? The first decision to make is, "What do I want to do?" The second is, "Which, if any, certifications will help me? Either professionally, or in just getting a job?" The next question is whether it's worth the effort. In some markets, it's not only worth it, it's all but essential, whether you like it or not. If that bothers you, ignore those markets. > Mike it's quite possible (as I do not have the honor of knowing your > personally) that you have quite a bit of experience in the IT field and/or > you have a degree from a University. The degree could be in basket > weaving. However, it clearly says, Mike can sit on his tush and do what it > takes to get this piece of paper. > That in itself is worth a lot. I have a degree. In photography, with minors in philosophy, psychology, and industrial education. (Don't ask... it's a long story.) About the time I got my degree, the first micro kits became available. So, I also took some programming courses so I'd be able to program the silly thing when it was built. And then I worked for years as a programmer. As you said, the degree shows I am willing to learn. And that is worth a lot. Industry certifications say much the same thing. That a person is willing to learn more about their profession. I strongly feel that the trend towards certification mills decreases the value of the certification. The original goal of the certifications was to take a person that is already "computer literate" (I HATE that phrase) and train them in THIS particular technology, whether that's a database, an OS, a NOS, router management, a language, or whatever and then test them to certify that they knew enough to be useful. When the certificate becomes the goal in and of itself, and when the training isn't designed to teach you to understand the technology, but instead focuses on how to pass the flippin' test, then the student and the company that hires that student are being ripped off. However..... there IS a simple answer. When you are hiring someone, don't filter just on two, three, and four letter acronyms. Let degrees and certification be part of the overall evaluation. Take the finalists on a tour of the place. Show 'em your setup. Ask 'em questions. If you're any good, you'll soon know if they know what you need 'em to. And if they have the background to pick it up quickly enough to be of use. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 15:29:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-10.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BE6514CE1 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA54767; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Mike Avery Cc: Lanny Baron , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again In-Reply-To: <199907122201.RAA23501@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Since you didn't quote any of my message, I'm not sure if you're > disagreeing with me or Alex. Alex thinks all certifications are > bogus. I think they have limited usefulness, especially in getting a > job. No, I think both things; they're not mutually exclusive. I think they're bogus and not necesarily a good judge of how competent a person is, but PHBs and the like tend to need something to differentiate all the people with 4.0 GPAs; and thus tend to look at certifications. It's sorta like grades (and grade inflation). Not necesarily accurate reprentaions (read: are/can be bogus), but generally sets you apart (in a positive manner) from the rest of the crowd; and certainly not required to know how to admin a * box. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 15:33:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D839A15034 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA26942; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:32:41 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990713083222.24542@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:32:23 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Lanny Baron Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up with > programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its own > certification. It may not go far right away, but down the road, as with > most good products, it would succeed. And who will pay for this to be developed? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 17:27:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64EEF14CE0 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23612; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:29:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907130029.TAA23612@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 19:25:32 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 19:24:58 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Sue Blake Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:24:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990713083222.24542@welearn.com.au> References: ; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 13 Jul 99, at 8:32, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up with > > programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its own > > certification. It may not go far right away, but down the road, as with > > most good products, it would succeed. > And who will pay for this to be developed? It kinda depends.... if all we want is certification, it's cheap and easy. If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING*, then it'll be harder. Still, the training courses and testing are two different aspects. I suspect generating the tests would be fairly easy..... and the questions on them can be validated in a few hundred test cycles so a short, valid, test could be administered.... If the certification was in demand, that would spawn training courses and training books..... Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Move your vowels every day or you'll get consonated. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 18:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC541512D for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02835; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:50:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA08082; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:50:29 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id UAA08668; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:50:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:50:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199907130150.UAA08668@free.pcs> To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-advocacy In-Reply-To: References: ; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400 Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: >On 13 Jul 99, at 8:32, Sue Blake wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > >> > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up with >> > programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its own >> > certification. It may not go far right away, but down the road, as with >> > most good products, it would succeed. > >> And who will pay for this to be developed? > >It kinda depends.... if all we want is certification, it's cheap and easy. > If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING*, then it'll be harder. > >Still, the training courses and testing are two different aspects. I >suspect generating the tests would be fairly easy..... and the >questions on them can be validated in a few hundred test cycles so a >short, valid, test could be administered.... *cough* *cough* You've never done this before, have you? Generating and validating the test is the _hard_ part. Calculating the reliability and validity of the test, using factor analysis to weed out the useless questions, and insure that scores wind up with a normal distribution takes a while. I asked a professional (my wife, actually, :-), and she said that it would take a minimum of a year to develop a reliable test. The curriculum is the easy part. As to different areas of proficiency, you're absolutely right. There wouldn't be "one" test, but different tests based on what skillsets you were looking for, and what the goal of the test was. Yes, I was half kicking around the idea of seriously doing this. However, 1) the test would not be free, and 2) I wonder whether there really is a market for this or not. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 19:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34A61506C for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23721; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907130227.VAA23721@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 21:24:01 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.45); 12 Jul 99 21:23:33 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: Jonathan Lemon , advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:23:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <199907130150.UAA08668@free.pcs> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 Jul 99, at 20:50, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >On 13 Jul 99, at 8:32, Sue Blake wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up > > > > with programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its > > > > own certification. It may not go far right away, but down > > > > the road, as with most good products, it would succeed. > > > And who will pay for this to be developed? > > It kinda depends.... if all we want is certification, it's cheap > > and easy. If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING*, then it'll be > > harder. > > Still, the training courses and testing are two different aspects. > > I suspect generating the tests would be fairly easy..... and the > > questions on them can be validated in a few hundred test cycles so > > a short, valid, test could be administered.... > *cough* *cough* > You've never done this before, have you? Well, I used to be a teacher... and I have had experience with generating and validating tests. > Generating and validating the test is the _hard_ part. Calculating > the reliability and validity of the test, using factor analysis to > weed out the useless questions, and insure that scores wind up with > a normal distribution takes a while. > I asked a professional (my wife, actually, :-), and she said that > it would take a minimum of a year to develop a reliable test. The > curriculum is the easy part. Ahhhh.... yeah. It's always easy to say your part is the hard part and the other guys is the easy part. Generating a curriculum is not easy. If it is intended to work, challenge all the students, without putting those at the far ends of the bell curve into a coma. Workshops are easy... courses and curricula are a lot harder. Once a test has been created, determining which questions are discrimators is pretty easy. Determining WHAT they discriminate can be hard. Like I said, if we don't care about validity, it's easy. If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING* then it gets a lot harder. > As to different areas of proficiency, you're absolutely right. There > wouldn't be "one" test, but different tests based on what skillsets you > were looking for, and what the goal of the test was. > Yes, I was half kicking around the idea of seriously doing this. However, > 1) the test would not be free, and 2) I wonder whether there really is a > market for this or not. It's a chicken or the egg problem. Has FreeBSD reached a critical mass where it seems to matter to employers whether or not people are certified for FreeBSD? What differences would you expect to see in a FreeBSD certified person and a Certified Unix Admin? (Sorry, can't remember the names of the group that handles that certification right now....) Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: A bad joke is a parody error... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 20:45:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A109B14F06 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA93504; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907130343.XAA93504@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: Sue Blake , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:44:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org In-reply-to: <19990713083222.24542@welearn.com.au> References: ; from Lanny Baron on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > And who will pay for this to be developed? > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- When you say who is going to pay for it, I don't know what you mean exactly. Sue, you know lots of people like Greg Lehey for example, that can work with other (someone told me the name Mike Mcusak sorry if its misspelled) very knowledgeable people that can make course ware that would have to be purchased by either individuals or tech schools. I know of one school here in Toronto that is very well known, and who is starting to offer linux certs. I asked them about FreeBSD but they have never heard of it. Going back to your question. If you start off at a certain level..and I am no expert at this. But, say you, a trainer says, a minium FreeBSD certification for networking would entail, installing FreeBSD (meaning you must also have some knowledge of hardware), security to be implemented, dns setup, user/group and permission knowledge. Lets say just for argument that what I have just mentioned is enough for "level 1" entry. You would need some people to make up tests and maybe even to demonstrate it in a lab (say in a training school). FreeBSD has ties with CDROM.com so something might be workable there. You (the student) need books and the cd (made presumably by cdrom.com). I know I am over simplifying it. But I feel that it not only could be done, but should be done. Most parts of any "course" that FreeBSD could offer are already written. It's a matter of binding what a group of people could decide on, what knowledge is needed for what level. Then when that is complete, banging on doors of these training schools might well prove worth it. I will call tomorrow, but a legit training school in toronto ( i think they are in the states too... its called learnix..maybe.. here it is http://www.learnix.com) offer Sun. HP-UX Microsoft and Oracle. The cost I have written here in Canadian $'s for Sun cert (assuming you pass the tests) is $8,900 and that does NOT include the cost of the tests. They (learnix) seem to be growing. More and more companies are sending their staff for training. I am not going there only because they don't offer job help and the school i will go to is more geared for those going from another industry to the IT industry. So when you say "who is going to pay for it" I guess ultimately the student will. In as far as the FreeBSD Project is concerned. If this could be brought to life, and had success, would they (the owners, investors and maybe those that develop a really good course) not get back more than they put in? If I had the technical knowledge and know-how, I would love to participate in something like this. But then thats only my opinion. Regards, Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 20:46:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8459314F06 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03127; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:46:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id WAA12633; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:46:12 -0500 Message-ID: <19990712224611.48334@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:46:12 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again References: <199907130227.VAA23721@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199907130227.VAA23721@hostigos.otherwhen.com>; from Mike Avery on Jul 07, 1999 at 09:23:24PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jul 07, 1999 at 09:23:24PM -0500, Mike Avery wrote: > > Generating and validating the test is the _hard_ part. Calculating > > the reliability and validity of the test, using factor analysis to > > weed out the useless questions, and insure that scores wind up with > > a normal distribution takes a while. > > > I asked a professional (my wife, actually, :-), and she said that > > it would take a minimum of a year to develop a reliable test. The > > curriculum is the easy part. > > Ahhhh.... yeah. It's always easy to say your part is the hard part and > the other guys is the easy part. Generating a curriculum is not easy. > If it is intended to work, challenge all the students, without putting > those at the far ends of the bell curve into a coma. I didn't mean to imply that it was trivial to develop a curriculum. However, the point of a certification _should_ be to measure knowledge and ability, and so should be logically detached from the curricula itself. In other words, it shouldn't matter how they obtained their skillset, so the testing should be general enough not to be biased towards a particular training method. > Once a test has been created, determining which questions are > discrimators is pretty easy. Determining WHAT they discriminate > can be hard. Hmm. I sometimes think that psychometric specialists and educators are at times diametrically opposed. :-) > Like I said, if we don't care about validity, it's easy. If we want it > to *MEAN SOMETHING* then it gets a lot harder. I think this is the key point. If we don't really care about validity, then it's kind of pointless, really. All you do is open up a one-week workshop, and all attendees get an automatic "certification". Isn't this what Red Hat does? This doesn't mean anything, and is just another way for a company to funnel more money into their coffers. > It's a chicken or the egg problem. Has FreeBSD reached a critical > mass where it seems to matter to employers whether or not people > are certified for FreeBSD? > > What differences would you expect to see in a FreeBSD certified > person and a Certified Unix Admin? (Sorry, can't remember the > names of the group that handles that certification right now....) I think a more pertinent question would be whether employers would value a "FreeBSD certificate" over a "Generic Unix" certificate. I would expect a 'FreeBSD' specific person to be familar with the specifis nuances of the system, and be able to start working immediately without running into "compatability" type blunders. (terminfo/termcap, lp/lpr, group wheel, rc/runlevels, that kind of stuff). Personally, I wouldn't see that much difference. However, I know several people who, once they learn a specific system, will always try to make other systems behave the same way instead of learning the behavior of the new system. For these people, having a brand-specific certification is useful. I would also like to think that sites that are running FreeBSD are more likely to be better educated as to what is required of a unix admin, and accept a generic certification instead of a more "safe" specific certification. However, for all I know, this is wishful thinking. -- JOnathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 21: 4:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766DF14D5A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA93660; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907130404.AAA93660@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: Jonathan Lemon , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:05:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org Cc: Princess Noemie In-reply-to: <199907130227.VAA23721@hostigos.otherwhen.com> References: <199907130150.UAA08668@free.pcs> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, It is evident that certification is getting more attention. But then as one who wrote below says, that in many cases it's a joke. True. I will agree. Just knowing enough to pass some tests that "get you by the exams" is not enough. When I talked to ms people at microsoft they told me that they are changing the test questions to make it more adept (is that the right word?) to a person truly knowing what he/she is doing with NT and networking. While writing this mail, I am looking at a printout of a Sun course being offered at Learnix. I will quote the "Program Details" to show what I thing the pros at FreeBSD can make 10000% better. "The Sun Certified Administrator Program for Solaris ^tm 7 is comprised fo two examinations: Part 1 exam will be available on April 30, 1999 and Part II exam will be available on June 11, 1999. You are given 90 minuets to complete the 72 multiple-choice and short answer type questions asked on each exam. To pass Part I you must score at least 75%, Part II only requires a score of 70% or better to pass. The fee for writing each exam is $150." I would hope/think that FreeBSD, as its system is great (but hard as hell to learn), could make it that one must "prove" their knowledge. Make them set up a network, from scratch. Then ask questions. I know you geniuses (i am not being sarcastic when i say that) of FreeBSD can make this happen. Lanny > On 12 Jul 99, at 20:50, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >On 13 Jul 99, at 8:32, Sue Blake wrote: > > >> On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > > > > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up > > > > > with programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its > > > > > own certification. It may not go far right away, but down > > > > > the road, as with most good products, it would succeed. > > > > > And who will pay for this to be developed? > > > > It kinda depends.... if all we want is certification, it's cheap > > > and easy. If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING*, then it'll be > > > harder. > > > > Still, the training courses and testing are two different aspects. > > > I suspect generating the tests would be fairly easy..... and the > > > questions on them can be validated in a few hundred test cycles so > > > a short, valid, test could be administered.... > > > *cough* *cough* > > > You've never done this before, have you? > > Well, I used to be a teacher... and I have had experience with > generating and validating tests. > > > Generating and validating the test is the _hard_ part. Calculating > > the reliability and validity of the test, using factor analysis to > > weed out the useless questions, and insure that scores wind up with > > a normal distribution takes a while. > > > I asked a professional (my wife, actually, :-), and she said that > > it would take a minimum of a year to develop a reliable test. The > > curriculum is the easy part. > > Ahhhh.... yeah. It's always easy to say your part is the hard part and > the other guys is the easy part. Generating a curriculum is not easy. > If it is intended to work, challenge all the students, without putting > those at the far ends of the bell curve into a coma. > > Workshops are easy... courses and curricula are a lot harder. > > Once a test has been created, determining which questions are > discrimators is pretty easy. Determining WHAT they discriminate > can be hard. > > Like I said, if we don't care about validity, it's easy. If we want it > to *MEAN SOMETHING* then it gets a lot harder. > > > As to different areas of proficiency, you're absolutely right. There > > wouldn't be "one" test, but different tests based on what skillsets you > > were looking for, and what the goal of the test was. > > > Yes, I was half kicking around the idea of seriously doing this. However, > > 1) the test would not be free, and 2) I wonder whether there really is a > > market for this or not. > > It's a chicken or the egg problem. Has FreeBSD reached a critical > mass where it seems to matter to employers whether or not people > are certified for FreeBSD? > > What differences would you expect to see in a FreeBSD certified > person and a Certified Unix Admin? (Sorry, can't remember the > names of the group that handles that certification right now....) > > Mike > > ====================================================================== > Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com > (409)-842-2942 (work) > ICQ: 16241692 > > * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * > > A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: > A bad joke is a parody error... > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 21:22:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freedom.cybertouch.org (freedom.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C1BE14E2A for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lnb@cybertouch.org) Received: from wired (wired.cybertouch.org [216.183.2.3]) by freedom.cybertouch.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA93788; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907130421.AAA93788@freedom.cybertouch.org> From: "Lanny Baron" To: Jonathan Lemon , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, Princess Noemie Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:23:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Reply-To: lnb@cybertouch.org In-reply-to: <199907130227.VAA23721@hostigos.otherwhen.com> References: <199907130150.UAA08668@free.pcs> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't know who wrote the 2 paragraphs below but, Why not start it going? What is the harm? If you do, can I get involved somehow? > > > Yes, I was half kicking around the idea of seriously doing this. However, > > 1) the test would not be free, and 2) I wonder whether there really is a > > market for this or not. > > It's a chicken or the egg problem. Has FreeBSD reached a critical > mass where it seems to matter to employers whether or not people > are certified for FreeBSD? > Its not the problem of reaching a critical mass... it's more of creating a demand in the corporate IT world for people certified that can actually do things to keep a corporation happy. Or even the small 1 or 2 person team that wants to sell their services (networking, web implementation, internet/intranet..sorry Greg i know you hate that word intranet). > What differences would you expect to see in a FreeBSD certified > person and a Certified Unix Admin? (Sorry, can't remember the > names of the group that handles that certification right now....) > The difference I see is that FreeBSD can go the extra 500 miles. Make levels of certification as MS is starting to do. Sorry i am not trying to copy ms. But they are starting. ... level 1.. installing and setting up FreeBSD server for handling mail, dns, routing. level 2 Providing File and Print sharing for MS workstations (maybe including PPP knowledge for dial-up as companies allow their employee's to dial in to do work) and so on. What I envision is that FreeBSD could actually get to the point where things like apache, sql server, and other business related/ISP related information technology could be certified by a core team of experts who run FreeBSD and whom, develop for the great OS. Lanny Get the idea. Man, are all scientists this stubborn? Make a committee, and get the ball rolling. > Mike > > ====================================================================== > Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com > (409)-842-2942 (work) > ICQ: 16241692 > > * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * > > A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: > A bad joke is a parody error... > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 12 21:50:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dtgnet.com (outmail.dtgnet.com [216.16.0.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F205714E32 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dragonknight@dtgnet.com) Received: from dragonk (rap-dialup-165.dtgnet.com [216.16.6.165]) by dtgnet.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14060 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <001301becceb$319b6140$0101a8c0@dtgnet.com> From: "Dragon Knight ][" To: References: <199907130150.UAA08668@free.pcs> <199907130421.AAA93788@freedom.cybertouch.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:49:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some very interesting points have been brought up so far in this thread, but I thought I might just add to it. So here goes. In my experience talking to NT / Novell network admins the Microsoft and Novell type Cert's are fairly difficult and provide a really good reference as to a persons ability to do the job. In fact, many computer shops around here require you to obtain your MCSE or something of the like within six months of being hired. On the other hand, when I talk to some of the guys who run a local ISP, run mostly with FreeBSD and a little NT, they consider the Microsoft certification a complete joke. They are all Microsoft certified, of course, and they don't deny that it has helped them at least get an interview in the past. I guess there is more than one point to this... Even though they consider MS Certification laughable, having it has helped them to a certain degree in their careers. .. .. Why do the NT guys swear by their certification and the nix guys seem the be somewhat seperated about it? I, for one, think that certification is a great idea, but only if it is done correctly. The tests must be ever changing / evolving with computer and related technology and the OS. There should be several types of certification, each with different levels of.. expertise. Perhaps depending upon how much a person could recall from memory, or how much experience they have.. or both. Even being certified at the lowest level should require substantial knowledge of what you are being certified in (eg: the tests need to be difficult). And for the higher levels of certification you might consider evaluation of the person to be certified by other admin's while the evaluated goes through trying and meticulously planned drills on a real network. IMHO, FreeBSD is one of the best OS's out there, and any type of certification for it should be the best out there. If some sort of certification does happen sometime in the future, it should not be a good certification, it should be taken over the top so as to be one of the best nix type certifications out there. I'm only a Junior in high school, but if such a beast did exist... I'd save my pennies for it without hesitation. Samuel Greear To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 12:28:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0556414C8E; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:28:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA27293; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:33:42 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:33:42 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Chris Costello , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheesy benchmarks In-Reply-To: <19990712193432.16491@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Narvi writes: > > > > > > http://perl.pattern.net/bench/ > > > > > > > What's the complaint? "We" won 3 out of 5 tests? > > The complaint is: badly done benchmark. Who cares if "we" > won or not ? > > It's a discredit for serious operating systems :-) > Badly done operating systems are a discredit to operating systems. Badly done benchmarks are a discredit to benchmarks. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 14:16:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851061506C; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18944; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:15:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:14:57 -0600 To: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 14:34: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D561507D; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id XAA07210; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:32:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id XAA18957; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:46:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990713234608.05117@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:46:08 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 13, 1999 at 03:14:57PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > > Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? Err... Who engineers the releases for the Cheap Bytes ? They're the same bits as the WC Cdrom. You're confusing distribution, media and packaging, IMHO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 14:42:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from OAAI.COM (ns1.oaai.com [142.148.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A799114DD2 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maury@OAAI.COM) Received: from sasquatch (sasquatch.oaai.com [142.148.106.72]) by OAAI.COM (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04275 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:43:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from maury) Message-Id: <199907132143.RAA04275@OAAI.COM> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 13, 1999 at 03:14:57PM -0600 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:49:38 -0400 From: Maury Markowitz X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. That has both advantages and disadvantages though, depending on the context. Throughout the 80's having a single source was one of the favourite excuses for MIS to reject Macs. Later when they tried cloning a different group complained that it was all too confusing. C'est la vie. > You're confusing distribution, media and packaging, IMHO. Well I'd say that if you look at "BSD" rather than "FreeBSD" the forking is just as bad as it is on the Linux side of things. Forking is bad. There are now three generally similar BSD releases out there, and arguing which is better actually makes them all worse. Of course only a dreamer would suggest that some anti-forking is due for the BSD world. Somebody pinch me! Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 15:46:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F98A1535F; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA10154; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA07564; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:44:04 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA24988; Tue, 13 Jul 99 15:44:04 PDT Message-Id: <378BC133.65CD6266@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:44:03 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:30 AM 7/3/99 -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to claim that it > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > > Ever hear of Cheap Bytes? Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? Welcome back, Brett. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 16: 9:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F50414C06 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) id AAA02208; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:08:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 00:08:25 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Mike Avery Cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Certification...again Message-ID: <19990714000824.A1645@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: ; <19990713083222.24542@welearn.com.au> <199907130029.TAA23612@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199907130029.TAA23612@hostigos.otherwhen.com>; from Mike Avery on Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 07:24:52PM -0500 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 07:24:52PM -0500, Mike Avery wrote: > On 13 Jul 99, at 8:32, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > > > > It appears you are making a joke of it. FreeBSD could come up with > > > programs for different areas of proficiency. Each with its own > > > certification. It may not go far right away, but down the road, as with > > > most good products, it would succeed. > > > And who will pay for this to be developed? > > It kinda depends.... if all we want is certification, it's cheap and easy. > If we want it to *MEAN SOMETHING*, then it'll be harder. For reference, I contacted TekMetrics about this a couple of weeks ago when this discussion first surfaced. They charge USD 20-40,000 to develop a test, depending on the type of test. I don't know if that's on the high side or the low side for the industry. I mention this simply as a datapoint. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 18:43:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9A715145 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17430; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:42:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd017411; Tue Jul 13 18:42:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22838; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:42:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907140142.SAA22838@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache To: seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org (Seth) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:42:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Seth" at Jul 8, 99 04:31:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hold up a sec. FreeBSD did NOT perform as well. Check the stats again. > The only things FreeBSD beat the other OS in was serving STATIC pages (and > mod_perl handler stuff). The "crucial" tests (dynamic content via cgi's) > showed the other OS to edge out our beloved FreeBSD. Pre-forking would probably make a difference. It might be a pain to make "ps" et. al. ignore the preforked process(es), though... My assumption about the three runs was not what others have come up with (run it until the numbers say what you want), but was, I think, to ensure that everything that was going to be in cache was in cache, as it would be if the server were under heavy traffic to the listed pages. I can think of three ways of speeding up Apache service of static content (one of the places FreeBSD and Linux lost out to IIS on NT in the beake-offs). Similar changes could make a difference to Samba as well (e.g. lazy closes, prebinding of generated data after response but before idle, etc.) Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 18:46:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1484C15145 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19666; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:45:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd019655; Tue Jul 13 18:45:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22945; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:45:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907140145.SAA22945@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:45:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37859E8A.9DF700CD@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Jul 9, 99 04:02:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At the very least, we don't know how Apache was compiled in each > one. It might be just a matter of compiler optimization... Speaking of which, does GCC do tail-call optimization yet? Also, has anyone assessed the amount of assembly code changes that would be necessary to use callee-pop (which GCC _does_ support)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 21:34:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE9D1503F; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22412; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:31:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:31:54 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378BC133.65CD6266@softweyr.com> References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. >Welcome back, Brett. To what? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 13 21:51:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A79A3153A4 for ; Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 59867 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 04:49:02 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 04:49:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:49:02 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. > > Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. > So what? They have to avoid the Walnut Creek compilation copyright. Big deal. Do they have a code base that isn't the FreeBSD CVS repository? If they don't, they aren't a different distribution than FreeBSD, Inc's. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 11:27:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF57F15418 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA21657; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA05532; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:25:51 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA19130; Wed, 14 Jul 99 11:26:02 PDT Message-Id: <378CD63A.459F14A0@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:26:02 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Maury Markowitz Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907132143.RAA04275@OAAI.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maury Markowitz wrote: > > > > >In addition to FreeBSD being rock solid, it has the right to > claim that it > > > >is a one distribution OS. Unlike linux which has several. > > That has both advantages and disadvantages though, depending on > the context. Throughout the 80's having a single source was one of > the favourite excuses for MIS to reject Macs. Later when they tried > cloning a different group complained that it was all too confusing. > C'est la vie. > > > You're confusing distribution, media and packaging, IMHO. > > Well I'd say that if you look at "BSD" rather than "FreeBSD" the > forking is just as bad as it is on the Linux side of things. Forking > is bad. There are now three generally similar BSD releases out > there, and arguing which is better actually makes them all worse. > > Of course only a dreamer would suggest that some anti-forking is > due for the BSD world. Somebody pinch me! OK, you're pinched. You're also wrong. Forking isn't bad, it improves the breed. The three BSD releases aren't all that similar, and each brings a unique perspective that COULD NOT be addressed by one of the other BSD projects. And, to put it mildly, BSD is far less "forked" than Linux: Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, SuSE, Turbo, Caldera, etc. I'm sure there are quite a few more, it seems like a new Linux distro is announced about once a week these days, each with slightly different libraries, slightly different configuration, and slightly different application support. Yeah, right, what a way to run an OS. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 11:31:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009B615434; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA21698; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA05628; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:28:44 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA19264; Wed, 14 Jul 99 11:28:52 PDT Message-Id: <378CD6E5.5662FBFD@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:28:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:44 PM 7/13/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Sure. They're another company that sells THE FreeBSD distribution on CD-ROM. > > Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, and they both contain the same OS. Unlike Caldera, Red Hat, Debian, Slackware, SuSE, Turbo, etc., which are different operating systems that all use the Linux kernel. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 13:27:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4AB414E5F; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29154; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:26:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:26:48 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:49 PM 7/13/99 -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >> Wrong. Their distribution is one CD-ROM. Walnut Creek's is four. > > > >So what? They have to avoid the Walnut Creek compilation copyright. >Big deal. Do they have a code base that isn't the FreeBSD CVS repository? >If they don't, they aren't a different distribution than FreeBSD, Inc's. > >David Scheidt That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the kernel and even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to distinguish a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different setup program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different default configuration. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 13:36:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D0414FC7; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29262; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:34:44 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378CD6E5.5662FBFD@softweyr.com> References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. > > > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. > >No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- >Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, But it is not identical. It contains a different installation program and a different selection of third-party applications and utilities. This is the same distinction which exists between Linux distributions. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 14:47:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (korea-161.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.225.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7512C14FCB; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA01369; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 platforms. Hmm. Brett, your point wasn't valid, please don't start another useless flame war over something so unimportant. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15: 9:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BEE14E1C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00347; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:14 -0600 To: Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 >platforms. As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux itself came from the same CVS tree. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:25:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C1515443; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA20358; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:24:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA21201; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:38:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715003822.16534@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:38:22 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 04:09:14PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass writes: > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. What CVS tree ? Linux is not maintained under CVS. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:28:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4D9154A1; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32033; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:28:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. > > >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > >platforms. > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal is. Who cares? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B1915443; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00597; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714162928.045b8520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:30:13 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990715003822.16534@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pardon me; I meant to say from the same source tree. --Brett At 12:38 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Brett Glass writes: > > > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > > itself came from the same CVS tree. > > What CVS tree ? Linux is not maintained under CVS. > >-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:34:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699521546C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00600; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714163037.045b9f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:32:15 -0600 To: Tani Hosokawa From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:28 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal >is. Who cares? We all should, because there's an important question here: What constitutes a distribution? I say that any package that includes a significantly different selection of components qualifies. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:41:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C470115401; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA25164; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA14849; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:39:26 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA02574; Wed, 14 Jul 99 15:39:41 PDT Message-Id: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:39:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:28 PM 7/14/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. > > By that definition, Red Hat and Caldera would be the same distribution. They would be if they shipped the same configuration files, libraries, etc. They do not. They ship the same kernel, with differing RedHat and Caldera configuration files, userland utilities, libraries, X servers, etc. This is not the case with CheapBytes and Walnut Creek FreeBSD discs. Cheap- Bytes takes the same kernel, libraries, utilities, and installation program and creates a single disc. Walnut Creek fills 3 additional disks with more binary packages, more source distributions, a live filesystem, and the CVS repository, but the entire operating system is the same. > > > >So does Pacific HiTech in Japan. Did you have a point to make? > > > > > > Yes, but clearly it was too subtle for some folks to catch. > > > >No, you thought you had a point to make, but you were mistaken. The Cheap- > >Bytes FreeBSD disc is roughly equivalent to disc 1 from Walnut Creek, > > But it is not identical. It contains a different installation program and > a different selection of third-party applications and utilities. This is > the same distinction which exists between Linux distributions. This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. The CheapBytes disc is a subset of what is on the Walnut Creek disk, but the system installed in your hard disk after running either install is the same. This is NOT true with Red Hat vs. Caldera (vs. Debian vs. etc) and no matter how many times you say it is, it STILL won't be. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:43:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6927415450; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA25196; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA14933; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:42:59 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA02732; Wed, 14 Jul 99 15:43:14 PDT Message-Id: <378D1283.1DC90AE2@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:43:15 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 02:46 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > >You don't get the same programs, libraries or configuration files at all. > > >For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > >system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > >management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > >platforms. > > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. What part of "Linux is a kernel, not an OS" didn't you understand? The part that required you to know the difference between the two? Quote the "Wes's criteria" you speak of here or shut up and stop INTENTIONALLY misquoting me. And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:49:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365A2154D1; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA20774; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:48:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id BAA21308; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990715010308.38726@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 01:03:08 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Wes Peters Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 04:39:41PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- we call it fly fucking. :-) > The CheapBytes disc is a subset of what is on the Walnut Creek disk, but > the system installed in your hard disk after running either install is > the same. This is NOT true with Red Hat vs. Caldera (vs. Debian vs. etc) > and no matter how many times you say it is, it STILL won't be. What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, because they were not distributed in the same way. Different distributions of the same version, then. This is redefinition for the sake of it, or procrastination -- in French: enculage de mouche, in Danish: flyknepperi. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 15:50:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F81154A7; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32295; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:50:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714163037.045b9f00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there any significant difference between either of the two FreeBSD "distributions"? On Linux, for example, the differences are really massive between distributions. Different libraries, different apps, different configurations, different file layouts,different administration tools... For example, Slackware has your basic installation wizard, a rudimentary package manager (really, it manages tarballs with an install script embedded in them), libc5 (libc6 now, but most of the binaries still are linked against libc5), and that's about it. RedHat has a spiffy installation wizard, all the authentication is PAMified, it supports MD5 passwords, has the RPM package manager, it uses SysVinit, all the configuration files are in /etc/, all the software is configured completely differently, Vixie cron instead of Dillon cron, different version of the C compiler, additional X drivers, ... in fact, most utils are significantly different. Stampede, also radically different. And it has the Stampede package manager. SuSE, uses RPMs, but again massive differences. ROCK, from what I understand, consists of a handful of shell scripts and some sourcecode. Debian uses the .deb packages. Again, not compatible with any of the others, although Debian can use RPMs. Now, if I log in to any one of these distributions with only knowledge of one, chances are I'm going to be functionally useless aside from basic tasks for about a week. I can't even copy binaries between some of these. If I log in to a Walnut Creek FreeBSD machine, then I check out a Cheapbytes FreeBSD machine, I'm probably not going to have any difficulty whatsoever. I can FTP down any packages I want from any standard FreeBSD FTP site, I can use the ports collection, it's all compatible, and for the most part, identical. I don't see any real difference between the two. Their fundamentally the same, and anything different is just fluff. On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:28 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > >Actually, there is no CVS tree for Linux :) I don't see what the big deal > >is. Who cares? > > We all should, because there's an important question here: What constitutes > a distribution? I say that any package that includes a significantly different > selection of components qualifies. > > --Brett > --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 16:10:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07CF8154B5; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:10:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01713; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:09:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, Paul Anderson , ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714160756.046fdbf0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As I understand it, by Wes's criteria, this wouldn't count because Linux > itself came from the same CVS tree. Nope. Read: > >But it's still FreeBSD. Regardless of whether you buy the WC 4 disk set > >or the CheapBytes 1 disk set, you get the same kernel, the same configuration > >files, the same libraries, the same operating system. The same libraries, the same configuration files. As I already pointed out, they're not the same. The kernel is not the whole operating system. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 17:34:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5DE414E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01693; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:34:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:34:10 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990715010308.38726@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> <199907030108.VAA24907@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <4.2.0.58.19990713151423.0447bc20@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990713223011.044ee920@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990714142755.04765a40@localhost> <378D11AD.A28551B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:03 AM 7/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Wes Peters writes: > > > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. > > Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- > we call it fly fucking. :-) In the US, we use a more polite term: "nit picking." But that's not what's going on here. FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over the difference between the distributions that are available, and also to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple distributions. > What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition > of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, > because they were not distributed in the same way. Or even with the same applications and utilities. > Different distributions of the same version, then. Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different distributions of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 17:44:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9361714E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00699; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:43:04 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:43:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > This is going nowhere, you're just disagreeing to disagree. As usual. > > > > Not really, in fact -- we have an expression for in Europe -- > > we call it fly fucking. :-) > In the US, we use a more polite term: "nit picking." > > But that's not what's going on here. > > FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over > the difference between the distributions that are available, and also > to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple > distributions. Any time I've ever heard of this particular point being raised it was to boost FreeBSD, since it's easier to develop for a single platform. For example, the NTP people dropped official support of Linux because of the frequency of changes to the kernel, as well as the difficulty in making it work on all flavours of Linux. They mentioned FreeBSD specifically as a more stable platform developer-wise. > > What Brett is doing is pointing us at the dictionary definition > > of distrbution: CheapBytes and WC may not be the same distribution, > > because they were not distributed in the same way. > Or even with the same applications and utilities. > > > Different distributions of the same version, then. > Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of > Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different distributions > of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. Unless I'm mistaken, the Cheapbytes CD is copied from the "official" CD set, with stuff removed. What you have after installing is essentially identical. What's different? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 17:55:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B121542D; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01870; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:54:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714185301.046d7460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:54:16 -0600 To: Tani Hosokawa From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:43 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Unless I'm mistaken, the Cheapbytes CD is copied from the "official" CD >set, with stuff removed. What you have after installing is essentially >identical. My Cheap Bytes CD had a different selection of stuff to install than the Walnut Creek CD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 17:58:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA1814E90; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:07 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:07 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bece5d$1a099ab0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Regardless, two FreeBSD-3.2 machines running different 'distributions' are probably going to be a lot more alike than two Linux-2.0.36 machines running different distributions. My belief is that this is both a good thing and a bad thing. This is simply another area where Linux and FreeBSD differ. Each operating system's respective adovcates will be happy to sing the praises of their operating system's respective choices and complain about other operating system's choices. David Schwartz Check your NTP server: http://www.gpsclock.com/check.html > FreeBSD isn't a "one-distribution" OS. To say so would be to gloss over > the difference between the distributions that are available, and also > to suggest that the OS was so unpopular as not to be worthy of multiple > distributions. [SNIP] > Exactly. Just as Red Hat, Caldera, etc. have different distributions of > Linux that contain the same Linux kernel, there are different > distributions > of FreeBSD with the same versions of the kernel, etc. > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 17:58:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5878E15487; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:08 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Tani Hosokawa" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:58:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bece5d$1a9b0540$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Any time I've ever heard of this particular point being raised it was to > boost FreeBSD, since it's easier to develop for a single platform. For > example, the NTP people dropped official support of Linux because of the > frequency of changes to the kernel, as well as the difficulty in making it > work on all flavours of Linux. They mentioned FreeBSD specifically as a > more stable platform developer-wise. Amusing, considering that the latest versions of NTP run fine on Linux and break on FreeBSD. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 18: 6:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B74B14CCF; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02007; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:05:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:05:29 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: , In-Reply-To: <000001bece5d$1a099ab0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990714182909.045589a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:58 PM 7/14/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Regardless, two FreeBSD-3.2 machines running different 'distributions' are >probably going to be a lot more alike than two Linux-2.0.36 machines running >different distributions. > > My belief is that this is both a good thing and a bad thing. It could be either! It depends upon the way in which those systems are alike. For example, if the userland commands are similar, it's less likely that a person who runs or administers one will have trouble with another. But it's also good to have distributions tailored for different needs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 18:13:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bootes.ebtech.net (bootes.ebtech.net [142.250.0.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A59214F54; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@geeky1.ebtech.net) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bootes.ebtech.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with UUCP id UAA13034; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:32:03 -0400 Received: from localhost (paul@localhost) by geeky1.ebtech.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA25955; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:56:44 -0400 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:56:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Anderson To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Alex Zepeda wrote: > > For instance Caldera includes KDE, Qt, a Qt based installer and IIRC > system configuration tool Caldera also has different tools for package > management. RedHat does not; RedHat is also available for non x86 > platforms. Hmm. > Sorry, but, you're just plain wrong. RedHat *DOES* include KDE and Qt, Caldera uses RPM just like RedHat, the text configuration files are almost *EXACTLY* the same, the only real difference is in commercial products included with the distribution and the GUI config tools. TTYL! --- Paul Anderson - Self-employed Megalomaniac paul@geeky1.ebtech.net Member of the Sarnia Linux User's Group http://www.sar-net.com/slug http://zephyr.sellad.on.ca/~paul "Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 19:19:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B0A114BCE for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17020; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:18:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016994; Wed Jul 14 19:17:54 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11653; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:17:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150217.TAA11653@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 02:17:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: maury@OAAI.COM, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378CD63A.459F14A0@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 14, 99 12:26:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Of course only a dreamer would suggest that some anti-forking is > > due for the BSD world. Somebody pinch me! > > OK, you're pinched. You're also wrong. Forking isn't bad, it improves > the breed. The three BSD releases aren't all that similar, and each > brings a unique perspective that COULD NOT be addressed by one of the > other BSD projects. I think this is baloney. Linux is addressing the SMP, multiplatform, and agregate distribution as we speak. Forking is an artifact, an emergent property, with roots in both the organizational structure that is carried by all of the BSD groups, and in the tools used by the BSD groups (CVS, in particular) implying strictures that _require_ herd behaviour to prevent forks. The number of Linux distributions is actually a bad thing, for Linux continuity _and_ Linux marketing. But the multiplicity of Linux distributions is _not_ analogous to the forking that has occurred in the BSD world. The closest approach Linux has made to forking are the "ac" kernels, the close calls with libc vs. glibc, and the GGI project (other, older examples, exist). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:11:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-3.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A58414FE6; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:11:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA00414; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:08:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Paul Anderson Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Lanny Baron , cjclark@home.com, ulairi@jps.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Paul Anderson wrote: > Sorry, but, you're just plain wrong. RedHat *DOES* include KDE and Qt, RH has only included and supported KDE/Qt in 6.0; and it did that very grudgingly. > Caldera uses RPM just like RedHat, the text configuration files are almost > *EXACTLY* the same, SuSE also uses RPM. But RPMs for SuSE wouldn't be guaranteed to work on RH and Caldera. There are enough subtle file system layout differences that RPMs are intentionally built for a specific distribution. At one time; there were PAM related bugs that tended to affect only RH because it was the only distro that used PAM. They are different, period. It's more than skin deep. A package designed for the official FreeBSD will also work on a CheapBytes system. > the only real difference is in commercial products included with the > distribution and the GUI config tools. TTYL! Caldera also includes a graphical installer (Lizard). RH OTOH has a text based one as well as DiskDruid or whatever it's called. CheapBytes and the "official" distribution have the same installer. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hooked.net (pm3-3.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B9A154A3; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by hooked.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA00435; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:10:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With all this anal retentive nit picking not really serving an intelligent purpose, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned PicoBSD. If anything was a second distribution of FreeBSD; that would be it. - alex I thought felt your touch In my car, on my clutch But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:18:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA91C14BB8; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27722; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027703; Wed Jul 14 20:17:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14817; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:17:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:17:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378D1283.1DC90AE2@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 14, 99 04:43:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source > control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some > backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a number of the issues that result in the emergent property of forking in the BSD distributions deriving from the BSD distributions use of CVS. Bitkeeper is now publically available, so long as your change log (not including source, -- just comments) is visible on the web (or you buy a license). See http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk12.html for details. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75E0154A3; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA70192; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jul 1999 03:17:13 -0000." <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:38:36 -0700 Message-ID: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product are. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86C561517E; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03139; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page that was given in the e-mail... I quote: "Everyone needs a good source management system. Since we are a Linux based company, we are especially tuned to the needs of the Linux team: Linus really needs good source management. The current Linux development model has some problems and Linus needs tools to help solve those problems. Without a decent distributed source management system, all of the merging and tracking work falls on Linus' shoulders and that is getting to be way too much for any one person, even someone like Linus. The goal of the Bitkeeper effort is to provide tools that help the Linux kernel effort, and more specifically, help Linus. If the tool is good enough for the Linux effort, it is more than capable enough for just about any other task. The problem with most systems is that they don't scale. They all work great for 1-5 developers. It doesn't matter which one you choose. However, they all tend to fall apart when you have 1000 developers. Since we have experience in source management, having designed and implemented most of Sun's TeamWare source management system, we are quite familiar with the scaling problem and feel that we can provide a better, more scalable and more reliable answer. We did it before, and this one is better." and "Release plans are delayed due to Linus' desire to have the LOD feature supported in version 1.0." If that's not enough, go skim the linux-kernel archives. On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > > Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or > anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, > please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs > pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? > > I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that > this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts > other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible > proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. > > Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using > bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm > asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product > are. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 20:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297E91517E; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA70262; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:46:13 PDT." Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 20:50:08 -0700 Message-ID: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based browsing interface, so where are they? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 21:12:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-97.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B98154CA; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [207.23.37.97]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA03398; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:12:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > browsing interface, so where are they? :) "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a closed beta" So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it will be shortly. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 23: 5:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85F10154E9; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id XAA27703; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id XAA03654; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:04:06 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23696; Wed, 14 Jul 99 23:04:22 PDT Message-Id: <378D79E5.D429E5A4@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:04:21 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907150317.UAA14817@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > And, by the way, Linux doesn't have a CVS tree, or any other sort of source > > control system. They have Linus' home machine, and (hopefully) some > > backups somewhere. Great way to run a development program. > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > number of the issues that result in the emergent property of > forking in the BSD distributions deriving from the BSD > distributions use of CVS. If Linus uses BitKeeper to store his "backups", that's just fine and good. The point still remains that the list of people who can commit changes to the official Linux kernel remains at: Linus Torvalds > Bitkeeper is now publically available, so long as your change log > (not including source, -- just comments) is visible on the web > (or you buy a license). Bitkeeper has been publically available for quite some time; our system engineering group evaluated it last summer before choosing Perforce. It seems quite effective, but doesn't seem to scale well to geographically distributed development teams. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 14 23:11:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC971507C; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id XAA27763; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id XAA04458; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:09:27 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA23924; Wed, 14 Jul 99 23:09:38 PDT Message-Id: <378D7B21.51FCE5D3@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:09:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tani Hosokawa Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, terry@whistle.com Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a closed beta" > > So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it will be shortly. So you've just confirmed that no such specific documentation exists, or can exist, because Linux has not yet officially transitioned to BitKeeper. This also points out it will be some time before the scalability and usability of BitKeeper, or the willingness of the Linux leaders to submit to the discipline of such a tool can be proven. Gee, Terry, this seems eerily familiar. Who else do we know that ran through every existing source code control system on the planet but refused to submit to any of them himself? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 6: 3:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D27114E13; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:03:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA09107; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma008366; Thu, 15 Jul 99 09:01:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:01:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Seth Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel is yet another distribution? SB On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the kernel and > even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to distinguish > a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different setup > program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different default > configuration. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 9:28:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D02521559D; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id JAA03116; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA13763; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:27:01 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA22329; Thu, 15 Jul 99 09:26:45 PDT Message-Id: <378E0BC3.2A9B0361@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:26:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Cc: Brett Glass , David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth wrote: > > In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel > is yet another distribution? Maybe, maybe not. It's entirely possible they're using one of the "standard" distributions. I know of one rather large embedded system vendor who has just inked a deal with a Linux distributor for their embedded products, but can't say anything until the public announcement is made. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 9:42:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from OAAI.COM (ns1.oaai.com [142.148.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED39C155A5 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maury@OAAI.COM) Received: from sasquatch (sasquatch.oaai.com [142.148.106.72]) by OAAI.COM (8.9.1/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01326 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:42:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from maury) Message-Id: <199907151642.MAA01326@OAAI.COM> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Source control packages Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:49:03 -0400 From: Maury Markowitz X-Mailer-Extensions: SWSignature 1.3.2 X-Mailer: by Apple MailViewer (2.106) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I know this isn't really on topic, but it does seem to be the best place to ask considering the other threads. I'm currently using CVS. I don't like it. The reasons I don't like it are... a) branching and merging don't seem to work for me. This is primarily a problem with diffing as far as I can tell, but I have to go in and hand edit practically every file I've modified from a branch. It's also far too complex an operation, and I find the whole tagging concept rather confusing. b) merging two edits on the same branch rarely works. Again this seems to be a diff problem, but there's cases where the only thing that changed was the number of spaces in a blank line, and this has caused huge blocks of my file to be marked as conflicting. c) there's no way to do "stamping". For instance when I'm about to do a release build I'd like some way to stamp the repository saying "I've used this version to make my 1.1 build". Instead it does this the other way around, putting crud in your files that YOU can pull out. d) it puts crud in my files! e) it puts crud in my directories. f) having the no checkin/checkout is pretty cool, but there are some times where this is exactly what you want to do. I'd prefer to have this as an option (locking). Any suggestions people? Is perforce the way to go? Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 9:42:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FC2155B3; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08241; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:41:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715104104.043a5a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:41:53 -0600 To: Seth From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714142422.0455d7e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You might call it that, yes. Though it wasn't really intended to be a distribution of software without hardware. --Brett At 09:01 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Seth wrote: >In which case we can assume that this new router based on a Linux kernel >is yet another distribution? > >SB > >On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > That's not what makes a different distribution. As with Linux, the > kernel and > > even the userland environment can be identical! All that's needed to > distinguish > > a distribution is a different set (or subset) of utilities, a different > setup > > program, different bundled application programs, and/or a different > default > > configuration. > > > > --Brett > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 10: 8: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6242E14BE3; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from terry@whistle.com) Received: from whistle.com (tlambert.whistle.com [207.76.205.208]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA81731; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378E1448.B7C0E7B6@whistle.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:03:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Tani Hosokawa , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <378D7B21.51FCE5D3@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Tani Hosokawa wrote: > > > > On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. > > > > Go read the web page that was given in the > > > > e-mail... I quote: > > > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. > > > I asked for specifics and I meant specifics. URLs > > > demonstrating an *active use* of Bitkeeper please - I > > > know it's intended to offer a web based browsing > > > interface, so where are they? :) > > > > "Because we haven't written up a license yet, this is a > > closed beta" > > > > So, it's not in active use right now for Linux, but it > > will be shortly. > > So you've just confirmed that no such specific documentation > exists, or can exist, because Linux has not yet officially > transitioned to BitKeeper. This also points out it will be > some time before the scalability and usability of BitKeeper, > or the willingness of the Linux leaders to submit to the > discipline of such a tool can be proven. > > Gee, Terry, this seems eerily familiar. Who else do we know > that ran through every existing source code control system > on the planet but refused to submit to any of them himself? Not me. I was one of the people who instituted CVS at Novell. I'd be interested to know who you think you are talking about, though. 8-). I think you guys are reading the wrong URL's. Instead of reading the out of date: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html I suggest you read: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk12.html http://www.bitkeeper.com/free.html http://lwn.net/1999/features/BitKeeper.phtml ...and of course, going back to: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html and reading the last sentence of paragraph 1: Mail sales@bitmover.com if you want to take part in the Beta program. -- Terry Lambert -- Whistle Communications, Inc. -- terry@whistle.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- This is formal notice under California Assembly Bill 1629, enacted 9/26/98 that any UCE sent to my email address will be billed $50 per incident to the legally allowed maximum of $25,000. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 11:17:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFEA314DC4 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15915; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:16:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA26462; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:16:27 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA11987; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:16:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:16:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199907151816.NAA11987@free.pcs> To: maury@OAAI.COM, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Source control packages X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-advocacy In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: > > I'm currently using CVS. I don't like it. The reasons I don't >like it are... [ .. snip .. ] Nobody really seems to like CVS. However, all the alternatives seem to be either 1. worse, or 2. commercial. So go ahead and bitch all you like. > Any suggestions people? Is perforce the way to go? I think that Perforce is quite nice. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 12:52:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1F01515B; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:52:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11734; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:50:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd011714; Thu Jul 15 12:50:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03679; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:49:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151949.MAA03679@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:49:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wes@softweyr.com, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <70188.932009916@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 14, 99 08:38:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Wrong. They have Larry McVoy's "BitKeeper", which addresses a > > Who's "they", and please don't answer "The Linux community" or > anything else which is equivalently vague to the point of absurdity, > please be specific. Which group(s) are using it and what are the URLs > pointing to on-line proof of this in each case? Linux Torvalds. Paragraph 3: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk05.html Paragraph 2: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html > I ask these questions because your statement strongly implies that > this technology is in active use now by "them" and that contradicts > other statements I heard at USENIX, making the question of tangible > proof somewhat relevant in deciding which story is true. > > Also please note that I'm not asking "which people will be using > bitkeeper" or "which people are thinking of using bitkeeper", I'm > asking who the current, active poster-children users of this product > are. VA research, Intel, SGI (I assume this is Jeremy Allison), and Quantum. See paragraph 1: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bk06.html Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 12:58:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65947155F1; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29035; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028962; Thu Jul 15 12:56:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03978; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:56:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907151956.MAA03978@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <70258.932010608@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jul 14, 99 08:50:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > browsing interface, so where are they? :) I don't know if this is their report format or not: http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a beta. I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 13:46:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from erdos.askjeeves.com (erdos.askjeeves.com [204.71.204.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34810155CC for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:46:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@erdos.askjeeves.com) Received: from erdos.askjeeves.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by erdos.askjeeves.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10194; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:51:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199907152051.NAA10194@erdos.askjeeves.com> To: Maury Markowitz Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Source control packages In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:49:03 EDT." <199907151642.MAA01326@OAAI.COM> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:51:00 -0700 From: Jason Nordwick Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Any suggestions people? Is perforce the way to go? PRCS is an easy to use version control program. It does not support locking, however. I have used it for over a year now and like it. http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/~jmacd/prcs.html >Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 15 13:57: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1CD155FD; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10637; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:56:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990715145410.0439dc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:54:27 -0600 To: Alex Zepeda From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990714190320.04556180@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It's yet another. --Brett At 08:10 PM 7/14/99 -0700, Alex Zepeda wrote: >With all this anal retentive nit picking not really serving an intelligent >purpose, I'm suprised nobody has mentioned PicoBSD. If anything was a >second distribution of FreeBSD; that would be it. > >- alex > >I thought felt your touch >In my car, on my clutch >But I guess it's just someone who felt a lot like I remember you. > - Translator To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 1:29:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7036614E86 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:29:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08346 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:29:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:29:38 -0700 Message-ID: <8342.932113778@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://ebs.tamu.edu/kamu-fm/gig-24jun99.ram You need a realaudio client to listen to this. It contains two interviews, one with Chris DiBona of VA Research on Linux and one with me on FreeBSD. The radio interviewer actually manages to make my ramblings sound semi-coherent (a rare talent) and gives us a great plug at the end, so it's probably worth sitting through the whole thing even if some of the things the Linux guys says make you want to grit your teeth a little. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 4:37:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A260314C89 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 04:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA19252; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:36:57 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <378F1953.45D13394@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:36:51 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Interview with Jordan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG jkh, you didn't warn us enough against teeth cringing on the Linux guy... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Would you like to go out with me?" "I'd love to." "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do next?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 6:27: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3F61514E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA81221; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:23:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. References: <8342.932113778@zippy.cdrom.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 1999 15:23:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:29:38 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > http://ebs.tamu.edu/kamu-fm/gig-24jun99.ram Transcripts? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 9:19:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.digital-web.net (unix1.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2211414D50 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by unix1.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA45380; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:15:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@unix1.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. In-Reply-To: <8342.932113778@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 16 Jul 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://ebs.tamu.edu/kamu-fm/gig-24jun99.ram > > The radio interviewer actually manages to make my ramblings sound > semi-coherent (a rare talent) and gives us a great plug at the end, so > it's probably worth sitting through the whole thing even if some of > the things the Linux guys says make you want to grit your teeth a > little. :-) > > - Jordan As I'm sure many people will point out, the linux guy sure did come down on FreeBSD pretty hard at times. To the interviewer's credit I think he did an excellent job of not falling into an OS bashing mode. After hearing the linux guy I was concerned that the interviewer was going to expect Jordan to answer these issues that were brought up, to be put on the defensive. However I don't think he did, as far as the interviewer is concerned I think it was a very fair interview. If anything it made the guy from VA Linux look bad because out of the three people ( Linux, FreeBSD, and the interviewer ), the linux guy was the only one who spent large amounts of timing bashing. ( Of course NT bashing is open to all :-) Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 9:55:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BD9156B2 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA85921; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:53:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: maury@OAAI.COM, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source control packages References: <199907151816.NAA11987@free.pcs> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 1999 18:53:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jonathan Lemon's message of "Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:16:26 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon writes: > Nobody really seems to like CVS. However, all the alternatives seem > to be either 1. worse, or 2. commercial. You forget: 3. free, slightly better, and in beta, and 4. free, really cool, but still in the design phase (with a prototype approaching). > So go ahead and bitch all > you like. That's neither constructive nor polite. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 9:58:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD86156A6 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA85993; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:56:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), dwilde1@thuntek.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache References: <199907140145.SAA22945@usr02.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 1999 18:56:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Wed, 14 Jul 1999 01:45:40 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert writes: > Also, has anyone assessed the amount of assembly code changes > that would be necessary to use callee-pop (which GCC _does_ > support)? Callee-pop isn't practical for languages that support functions with variable numbers of parameters. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 10:46:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4888B151A1 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19756; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:43:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id MAA02914; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:43:02 -0500 Message-ID: <19990716124302.45822@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:43:02 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: maury@OAAI.COM, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source control packages References: <199907151816.NAA11987@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Jul 07, 1999 at 06:53:55PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jul 07, 1999 at 06:53:55PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > Nobody really seems to like CVS. However, all the alternatives seem > > to be either 1. worse, or 2. commercial. > > You forget: 3. free, slightly better, and in beta, and 4. free, really > cool, but still in the design phase (with a prototype approaching). Which ones? I did notice that someone (you?) made a passing reference to another system, but I don't know anything about it. > > So go ahead and bitch all > > you like. > > That's neither constructive nor polite. I was aiming for `empathy', but apparently it didn't come out that way. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 10:48:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9C114D80 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA87133; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:48:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , maury@OAAI.COM, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source control packages References: <199907151816.NAA11987@free.pcs> <19990716124302.45822@right.PCS> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Jul 1999 19:48:14 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jonathan Lemon's message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:43:02 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon writes: > On Jul 07, 1999 at 06:53:55PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > Nobody really seems to like CVS. However, all the alternatives seem > > > to be either 1. worse, or 2. commercial. > > You forget: 3. free, slightly better, and in beta, and 4. free, really > > cool, but still in the design phase (with a prototype approaching). > Which ones? I did notice that someone (you?) made a passing reference > to another system, but I don't know anything about it. 3. refers to BitKeeper, 4. refers to OVCS. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 11:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FF5B14C80; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA20382; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA02363; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:51:02 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA07985; Fri, 16 Jul 99 11:50:55 PDT Message-Id: <378F7F0F.873EA9A4@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:50:55 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907151956.MAA03978@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > I don't know if this is their report format or not: > > http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ > > I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would > know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a > beta. > > I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). No more TerryBSD? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 12:57:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nostrum.com (mail.nostrum.com [206.28.8.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B1B156B3 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pckizer@nostrum.com) Received: (from pckizer@localhost) by mail.nostrum.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA12727; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:56:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199907161956.OAA12727@mail.nostrum.com> From: Philip Kizer To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:15:29 EDT." Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:56:58 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ CC list trimmed] Joseph Scott wrote: > As I'm sure many people will point out, the linux guy sure did >come down on FreeBSD pretty hard at times. Urgh...at times I was wanting to know if he had even tried using any of the *BSDs to back up his arguments. > To the interviewer's credit I think he did an excellent job of not >falling into an OS bashing mode. [ ... ] However I don't think he did, >as far as the interviewer is concerned I think it was a very fair >interview. I'll be sure to pass that on to Charles (the interviewer/my "team leader" :). Charles would have a hard time bashing any OS if his arguments weren't technically correct (he'd hear it from us); and, he knows how well FreeBSD is performing certain "mission critical" services for TAMU. > If anything it made the guy from VA Linux look bad because out of >the three people ( Linux, FreeBSD, and the interviewer ), the linux guy >was the only one who spent large amounts of timing bashing. ( Of course >NT bashing is open to all :-) Ya, well, that may be our view on it, but I know too many fans of certain OSs who's myopic view towards anything not ***** likely left them nodding along with various misinformation. -philip -- AKA: Philip Kizer Texas A&M CIS Operating Systems Group, Unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 14: 1: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1A414E58 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id NAA21718; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA06333; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:58:55 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn2.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA14197; Fri, 16 Jul 99 13:58:36 PDT Message-Id: <378F9CFB.57042F1E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:58:35 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Maury Markowitz Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source control packages References: <199907151642.MAA01326@OAAI.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Maury Markowitz wrote: > > I know this isn't really on topic, but it does seem to be the best > place to ask considering the other threads. > > I'm currently using CVS. I don't like it. The reasons I don't > like it are... > > a) branching and merging don't seem to work for me. This is > primarily a problem with diffing as far as I can tell, but I have to > go in and hand edit practically every file I've modified from a > branch. It's also far too complex an operation, and I find the whole > tagging concept rather confusing. Perforce is better at this than CVS, and much faster, but the unerlying complexity is still there. Merging a branch back into a moving code- line is hard work because difficult things are being done. Perforce does give you nway merging capabilities, that helps. Say you've got a main development line and a branch to implement some hairy new feature. Once the hairy new feature is done, you're ready to integrate it back into the main branch. Rather than just integrating away, and potentially breaking the main branch for a long time, you integrate from the main line to branch, make the branch work, then integrate back to the main line. This means your integration into the main line is much smaller (and therefore less failure prone) than integrating the whole mess from the start. > b) merging two edits on the same branch rarely works. Again this > seems to be a diff problem, but there's cases where the only thing > that changed was the number of spaces in a blank line, and this has > caused huge blocks of my file to be marked as conflicting. As in "cvs udpate" leaves <<<<<< doo-doos in your source? That's a feature of just about any concurrent system; the diff programs aren't smart enough to interleave your changes with another users changes other than on a line-by-line basis. Visual merge tools, especially those that run in an editing environment, can help here. I dig emacs ediff mode, but there are alternatives. > c) there's no way to do "stamping". For instance when I'm about to > do a release build I'd like some way to stamp the repository saying > "I've used this version to make my 1.1 build". Instead it does this > the other way around, putting crud in your files that YOU can pull > out. Huh? You missed "cvs rtag"? > d) it puts crud in my files! > > e) it puts crud in my directories. Perforce does none of the above, it puts the crud in the database on the server. You do have to crud up your environment a little, but it's pretty livable. > f) having the no checkin/checkout is pretty cool, but there are some > times where this is exactly what you want to do. I'd prefer to have > this as an option (locking). > > Any suggestions people? Is perforce the way to go? Not if you want locking, Perforce don't play that (stupid, time-wasting, productivity robbing) game. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 16:47:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from insecurity.shockwave.org (shockwave.lh.vix.com [204.152.188.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C53514EF0 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shibumi@insecurity.shockwave.org) Received: (from shibumi@localhost) by insecurity.shockwave.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA41718 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shibumi) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:12:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Kenton Hoover Message-Id: <199907170012.RAA41718@insecurity.shockwave.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Far be from me to agree with Brett... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ...but I think that one could make a reasonable argument that PAO is a different release of FreeBSD from the mainline release. Admittedly it is not shipped on CDs, but its different enough from FreeBSD, yet based upon it. | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@marchordie.org | | Private Citizen | | | San Francisco, California | | |===================== http://www.shockwave.org/~shibumi ====================| | Lisa, if the Bible has taught us nothing else - and it hasn't- it's | | that girls should stick to girls' sports, such as hot oil wrestling | | and foxy boxing and such and such. | | -- Homer Simpson | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 17: 7:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2253014CF1 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07525; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:04:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd007511; Fri Jul 16 17:04:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18541; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:03:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907170003.RAA18541@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Benchmarking web apps on Apache To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:03:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dcs@newsguy.com, dwilde1@thuntek.net, billf@chc-chimes.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Jul 16, 99 06:56:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Terry Lambert writes: > > Also, has anyone assessed the amount of assembly code changes > > that would be necessary to use callee-pop (which GCC _does_ > > support)? > > Callee-pop isn't practical for languages that support functions with > variable numbers of parameters. If the prototypes are required to be in scope, this is detectable. In other words, it can work for carefully written code. Microsoft Visual C++ does this (and tail call optimization to JMP instead of CALL + RET). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 17: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0193B14FC2; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26562; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd026537; Fri Jul 16 17:09:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18806; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 17:09:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907170009.RAA18806@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:09:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <378F7F0F.873EA9A4@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 16, 99 12:50:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Well, Linus is officially committed to it, IIRC. Go read the web page > > > > that was given in the e-mail... I quote: > > > > > > This doesn't answer my question at all, unfortunately. I asked for > > > specifics and I meant specifics. URLs demonstrating an *active use* > > > of Bitkeeper please - I know it's intended to offer a web based > > > browsing interface, so where are they? :) > > > > I don't know if this is their report format or not: > > > > http://www.bitkeeper.com/bugdb/ > > > > I'm pretty sure the log is on a different machine, which you would > > know the name of if you sent email to them and signed on for a > > beta. > > > > I would, but I'm not the head of a free software project. ;-). > > No more TerryBSD? ;^) I'm hoping for a "TerryBSD group" in the FreeBSD bitkeeper repository. I'm not stuck on the name; I'd be just as happy with, say, "New Technology" (FreeBSD/NT), or "VFS Research" (FreeBSD/VR), which both have a nice marketing cachet... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 21:16: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5180514E0F; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA09253; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:15:23 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37900353.5F688C0A@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:15:15 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Wes Peters , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT vs Linux vs FreeBSD References: <199907170009.RAA18806@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > No more TerryBSD? ;^) > > I'm hoping for a "TerryBSD group" in the FreeBSD bitkeeper > repository. I'm not stuck on the name; I'd be just as happy > with, say, "New Technology" (FreeBSD/NT), or "VFS Research" > (FreeBSD/VR), which both have a nice marketing cachet... And deprive us of actually being able to run a TerryBSD? You wish! :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Would you like to go out with me?" "I'd love to." "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do next?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 21:39:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B8415084 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA11504; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:39:24 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <379008F4.1131C4B2@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:39:16 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Scott Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joseph Scott wrote: > > As I'm sure many people will point out, the linux guy sure did > come down on FreeBSD pretty hard at times. At one point, he spent a good amount of time bashing BSD, and then said "that does not answer your question, ..." and then proceeded *not* to answer the question again! > To the interviewer's credit I think he did an excellent job of not > falling into an OS bashing mode. After hearing the linux guy I was > concerned that the interviewer was going to expect Jordan to answer these > issues that were brought up, to be put on the defensive. However I don't > think he did, as far as the interviewer is concerned I think it was a very > fair interview. I was concerned that might happen too. Kudos for both interviewer and Jordan not to fall in this trap. The Linux guy kept trying to weasel out of the questions, while Jordan answered them straight-forward. > If anything it made the guy from VA Linux look bad because out of > the three people ( Linux, FreeBSD, and the interviewer ), the linux guy > was the only one who spent large amounts of timing bashing. ( Of course > NT bashing is open to all :-) I think that anyone not biased would end up seeing FreeBSD on a better light, for the sole reason that Jordan was more, err, likable. :-) But, then again, I'm biased. I'd really like to hear what unbiased people thought... Hey, can we slashdot this? Or was it slashdotted already? (And, if so, what's the link?) I have had things accepted to slashdot before, so I think I can _succesfully_ submit it. :-) Just send the link again if anyone is interested. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Would you like to go out with me?" "I'd love to." "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do next?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 21:48: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B779314C49 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivea20.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.64]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06032; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37900ADB.6CA2BD98@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 00:47:23 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Joseph Scott , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. References: <379008F4.1131C4B2@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm wondering if we can get a transcript of this, since my net connection is just terrible right now and i've taken about 12 minutes to get the first 2 of the show. If anyone knows of a transcript please point me in the right direction. "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > As I'm sure many people will point out, the linux guy sure did > > come down on FreeBSD pretty hard at times. > > At one point, he spent a good amount of time bashing BSD, and then > said "that does not answer your question, ..." and then proceeded > *not* to answer the question again! > > > To the interviewer's credit I think he did an excellent job of not > > falling into an OS bashing mode. After hearing the linux guy I was > > concerned that the interviewer was going to expect Jordan to answer these > > issues that were brought up, to be put on the defensive. However I don't > > think he did, as far as the interviewer is concerned I think it was a very > > fair interview. > > I was concerned that might happen too. Kudos for both interviewer > and Jordan not to fall in this trap. The Linux guy kept trying to > weasel out of the questions, while Jordan answered them > straight-forward. > > > If anything it made the guy from VA Linux look bad because out of > > the three people ( Linux, FreeBSD, and the interviewer ), the linux guy > > was the only one who spent large amounts of timing bashing. ( Of course > > NT bashing is open to all :-) > > I think that anyone not biased would end up seeing FreeBSD on a > better light, for the sole reason that > Jordan was more, err, likable. :-) But, then again, I'm biased. I'd > really like to hear what unbiased people thought... > > Hey, can we slashdot this? Or was it slashdotted already? (And, if > so, what's the link?) > > I have had things accepted to slashdot before, so I think I can > _succesfully_ submit it. :-) Just send the link again if anyone is > interested. > > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > > "Would you like to go out with me?" > "I'd love to." > "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do > next?" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 The above email Copyright (C) 1999 Laurence Berland All rights reserved To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 21:53:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2671C1509E for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:53:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00696; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Joseph Scott , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:39:16 +0900." <379008F4.1131C4B2@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 21:53:04 -0700 Message-ID: <692.932187184@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Jordan was more, err, likable. :-) But, then again, I'm biased. I'd > really like to hear what unbiased people thought... Me too - there's always room for improvement. Wish I hadn't had such a bad cold during the interview too, but them's the breaks. > Hey, can we slashdot this? Or was it slashdotted already? (And, if > so, what's the link?) By all means, slashdot away. Use the RAM file for the interview itself (http://ebs.tamu.edu/kamu-fm/gig-24jun99.ram) or use the URL for the parent page (http://cis.tamu.edu/news/gigabytes/index.html). Any of the ezines who want to add a link as well should kindly do so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 16 22: 1:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF2EE14C49 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 1999 22:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id OAA13858; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:01:10 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37900E0E.F4DB87C@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 14:01:02 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Joseph Scott , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. References: <692.932187184@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Jordan was more, err, likable. :-) But, then again, I'm biased. I'd > > really like to hear what unbiased people thought... > > Me too - there's always room for improvement. Wish I hadn't had > such a bad cold during the interview too, but them's the breaks. Aha! So you *did* have a cold! I was wondering about that, but I was afraid to ask in case you didn't... :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Would you like to go out with me?" "I'd love to." "Oh, well, n... err... would you?... ahh... huh... what do I do next?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 17 18: 7: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18ED614F6B for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 15946 invoked by alias); 18 Jul 1999 01:05:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 15911 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jul 1999 01:05:17 -0000 Received: from fdsl72.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.72) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 18 Jul 1999 01:05:17 -0000 Message-ID: <37912846.FC0B14A5@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:05:10 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laurence Berland Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Joseph Scott , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux on college radio show. References: <379008F4.1131C4B2@newsguy.com> <37900ADB.6CA2BD98@confusion.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Laurence Berland wrote: > > I'm wondering if we can get a transcript of this, since my net > connection is just terrible right now and i've taken about 12 minutes to > get the first 2 of the show. If anyone knows of a transcript please > point me in the right direction. Did anyone else have problems with the sound cutting out to static every couple of minutes? I'm pretty sure it's just hiccups in the stream, but just has to be a concidence that it only happened when DiBona was talking, right? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 17 22:43:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from joe.halenet.com.au (joe.halenet.com.au [203.37.141.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F10114DDE for ; Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bbird@halenet.com.au) Received: from richardt (modem-127-st.halenet.com.au [203.55.33.127]) by joe.halenet.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA12671 for ; Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:02:01 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from bbird@halenet.com.au) Message-ID: <000501bed0e1$b47c0c00$7f2137cb@richardt> Reply-To: "bbird" From: "bbird" To: Subject: Joining Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 15:52:19 +1000 Organization: Bowerbird Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As a new user of FreeBSD, I would like to be placed on your mailing list. Regards Don Hansford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message