From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 19:49:45 1999
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:49:43 -0500
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From: John <papalia@UDel.Edu>
Subject: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K
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Hey all,
I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it
will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main
servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote
offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have:
- Mail server
- Router
- Existing AIX-based box
- Possibly web server
- Firewall (separate machine).
- A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple
client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based.
Simply put, my plans were to make all severs FreeBSD, with the exception of
the one machin that HAS to be NT, and the existing AIX machine (it has a
maintenance contract from the supplier on it).
We're trying to make sure that all is well in the world, and today my boss
comes to me and says "how about using Windows 2000 for the network?". I've
been hunting high and low, but have only come up with a bunch of articles
on what Win2K is SUPPOSED to do, not what it IS doing (yes, I do realize
it's still in Beta).
I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts?
Here's the needs:
- Ease of maintenance
- GREAT stability
- High security
If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is supposed
to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts file is for.
I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. So, the idea of support is
somewhat important. My concern is that they install an MS network now, and
spend an eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis,
with the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 -->
win95). My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented
FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, b)
the first major crash, c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent
need to update RSAREF2), or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're
running 3.x-stable, and a new port comes out that they REALLY need that
only runs on the newer versions.
Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might find
more information?
Thanks in advance,
John Papalia
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 19:58:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:56:43 +0100
To: John <papalia@UDel.Edu>
From: Olaf Hoyer <ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de>
Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
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>- Mail server
>- Router
>- Existing AIX-based box
>- Possibly web server
>- Firewall (separate machine).
>- A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple
>client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based.
>Here's the needs:
>- Ease of maintenance
>- GREAT stability
>- High security
Hi!
OK, here are some arguments:
Mail/news servers are far more efficient on a UNIX box, NTs creeping there.
Higher stability
Every new product, especially Microshit, needs lotsa bugfixes and
servicepacks, and you don't get them in time, and cannot fix it yourself,
because of NT not being open source.
FreeBSD is a mature product, with its roots being long before M$ was founded
Leaner product, you only install what you need, and you got a better job of
tightening security holes. NT installs just everything, and then you wonder
whats up.
M$ Internet Explorer shit everywhere as integral part of OS-very big leak
Better performance due to leaner driver concept.
Hope that helps
Regards
Olaf Hoyer
- - - - - - - -=20
Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de
home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU)
Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20
da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird.
Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20
auch in dich hinein.
(Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 15 20: 0: 3 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:57:14 +0100
To: John <papalia@UDel.Edu>
From: Olaf Hoyer <Inferno@nightfire.de>
Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
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>- Mail server
>- Router
>- Existing AIX-based box
>- Possibly web server
>- Firewall (separate machine).
>- A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple
>client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based.
>Here's the needs:
>- Ease of maintenance
>- GREAT stability
>- High security
Hi!
OK, here are some arguments:
Mail/news servers are far more efficient on a UNIX box, NTs creeping there.
Higher stability
Every new product, especially Microshit, needs lotsa bugfixes and
servicepacks, and you don't get them in time, and cannot fix it yourself,
because of NT not being open source.
FreeBSD is a mature product, with its roots being long before M$ was founded
Leaner product, you only install what you need, and you got a better job of
tightening security holes. NT installs just everything, and then you wonder
whats up.
M$ Internet Explorer shit everywhere as integral part of OS-very big leak
Better performance due to leaner driver concept.
Hope that helps
Regards
Olaf Hoyer=20
------
Olaf Hoyer ICQ: 22838075 mailto: Olaf.Hoyer@nightfire.de
home: www.nightfire.de (The home of the burning CPU)
Death be my master, my soul and saviour... (The book of inferno, chapter II)
"There is no justice, there is just me", said the Reaper (Terry Pratchett)
Wer mit Ungeheuern k=E4mpft, mag zusehn,=20
da=DF er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird.
Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund=20
auch in dich hinein.
(Friedrich Nietzsche, Jenseits von Gut und B=F6se)
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 1: 1:18 1999
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From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: John <papalia@UDel.Edu>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Need to justify FreeBSD vs. Win2K
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991215224130.009ed100@mail.udel.edu>
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On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, John wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I've been helping my old boss to design a WAN for the company. What it
> will consist of is three offices connected by Frame Relay. All main
> servers centralized to one office, the other two to be remote. The remote
> offices will have fileservers/routers. The main office will have:
>
> - Mail server
> - Router
> - Existing AIX-based box
> - Possibly web server
> - Firewall (separate machine).
> - A single NT machine for a proprietary software package - simple
> client/server architecture. All communication with it will be IP based.
>
> Simply put, my plans were to make all severs FreeBSD, with the exception of
> the one machin that HAS to be NT, and the existing AIX machine (it has a
> maintenance contract from the supplier on it).
>
> We're trying to make sure that all is well in the world, and today my boss
> comes to me and says "how about using Windows 2000 for the network?". I've
> been hunting high and low, but have only come up with a bunch of articles
> on what Win2K is SUPPOSED to do, not what it IS doing (yes, I do realize
> it's still in Beta).
>
> I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts?
>
> Here's the needs:
> - Ease of maintenance
> - GREAT stability
> - High security
>
> If I walk, they really don't have an IT guy. The one they have is supposed
> to be an "NT guru", but I had to explain to him what a hosts file is for.
> I don't hold much hope for him lasting long. So, the idea of support is
> somewhat important. My concern is that they install an MS network now, and
> spend an eternity doing upgrades and security patches on a monthly basis,
> with the every present fear of MS turning off the support (ala Win3.1 -->
> win95). My thougths were that with a well configured and well documented
> FreeBSD network, they'll be running solid until a) the first breakin, b)
> the first major crash, c) a security upgrade is necessary (like the recent
> need to update RSAREF2), or d), we're up to v.6.x-stable, and they're
> running 3.x-stable, and a new port comes out that they REALLY need that
> only runs on the newer versions.
>
> Any thoughts of how to reason this out with them, or where I might find
> more information?
First off I'm not sure exactly what your problem is.
here you have FreeBSD something:
1) you're skilled at setting up
2) has been working for people for ages
3) is available right now
then you have Lose2k:
1) can't set it up becasue it isn't released
2) no one besideds yourself would probably be able to set it up anyway
3) would take longer than FreeBSD to setup because you'd have to learn
MS's beta software which will probably have major changes once the
release is made and require upgrades.
I would ask your boss:
1) do you want me to waste time learning something when I already
know something that will do the job.
2) do you want to have to upgrade all the machines the instant the
'real' lose2k comes out
3) do i really have a need to run Halflife on a server? becasue
i'm not really even sure Halflife is on lose2k's compatibility list.
4) do you have the nagging urge to spend 6k on software licenses?
because if he does there are dozens of under-payed sysadmins would
could use a copy of Halflife, money better spent.
> I need help justifying one against the other. Any thoughts?
>
> Here's the needs:
> - Ease of maintenance
> - GREAT stability
> - High security
How do _any_ of these come into light when lose2k isn't even released yet?
*sigh*
-Alfred
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 5:31:52 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:31:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
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Subject: The Bazaar part II
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OK, so we're all at the Bazaar , ok well theres only 5 or 6 of us, but hey
its a start, we've unloaded over 50 CD's , 6 beanie Daemons, one small
plushie Daemon and 4 or 5 mousepads, a toolkit cd, and a snapshot CD.
and we're making it know that despite the fact that this conference is so
Linux oriented, we're not about to let people forget us.
I was talking to the sendmail.net folks (really cool people) and a
reporter came over and asked "WHat is Sendmail"...so of course we spane
tht enext 10 minutes telling her what sendmail was , then she says "I'm
doing an article on Linux."
I proceeded to ask her "Why Linux?, instead of the whole Open Source/Free
Software Movement", and she said "Investors like Linux", so I proceeded to
give her reasons why investors would like FreeBSD, if they only knew it
was being run. (Yahoo, US West, Walnut Creek), and proceeded to explain,
she asked me several more questions, recorded them on her handy dndy
pocket recorder, (while my digital camera was stolen, but thats a
different issue, and not her fault, I was only distracted by her)
so anyway, I'm hoping I opened her mind up to the whole community, not
just Linux (and specifically mentioned FreeBSD several times)
Overall the Bazaar has been a clusterf***, and not many people here.
Annelise, Lorraine, Chris Masto, Brian Reichert, Marc Rassbach, and Bob
Bruce were essentially the "FreeBSD Contingent".
We had a *BSD BoF yesterday as well, which went off rather well
considering it was unorganized. Unfortunately trying to get everything
else together left the BoF unplanned. A Technical BoF would have been
cool, but it floated at the outset (partly because of me, and my dilemma
of feeling like an outsider at an Open Source event, mostly because it
REALLY seemed like a Linux event) to the advocacy issue.
There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and
the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first
choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we
identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will
identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening.
Of course they will fall short of calling the distribution some
alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use
"Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name.
Linux's popularity largely owes to Linus' name in alot of ways, heres an
OS kernel thats named after a person, it makes him the De Facto figurehead
of that particular part of the Open Source movement. The fcat that he's
pretty friendly, and pretty charismatic as well helps. The Press has
someone to focus on. We don;t have that. Nor do I think we really want to
have that.
Marc and I had dinner with Eric Raymond the other night and before edinner
we had discussed BSD advocacy, and he said "I would like to the see the
BSD's succeed, but I just don;t see it happening", and I asked the reason.
He said it was due to the fact that we just don;t have the advocacy
efforts and ethusiasm that Linux has, lets face it, the best hackers are
not always the best advocates. Most of us would rather sit and hack code
and play with machines that work, rather than get out and scream it from
the rooftops. These kinds of activitiess thake alot out ot of us. After 3
days I'm pretty burnt out. I wonder how Jordan does it, or is he burnt
too? ;)
Anyway getting back on track, he said, we've got some real technical
strengths over linux, but without he head-on approach in advocacy, he sees
it sinking.
I don't. I believe that to start doing that (the way Brett Glass has been
saying for a long time) would violate the integrity of the personality of
any of the respective *BSD projects. We're not rabid groupies, we rarely
get that mentality, we're thinking people, and less likely to follow a
trend in compuing unless it has sound merits technically.
TO gain notoriety, we have to lose our strength?
By the same token, the grassroots efforts are working out well I think,
ok, maybe if we use the benchmark of linux as far as advocacy, we've
failed. But I kindof see ourselves as a slow success. A well know
linux-connected bookstore (linuxcentral) was telling me that 6 months ago,
they recieved no calls requesting any *BSD items (CD's etc.), now they get
people asking and requesting (specifically FreeBSD) quite a bit.
He said that he thinks we *are* growing, and doing just fine. I think at
some point that were going to contact Walnut Creek or FreeBSD.org about
marketing the Complete FreeBSD and the 4 CD set.
I mean I think some things were accomplished here. But not as much as I
would have hoped.
oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the
embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom.
Anyway, thoughts? opinions? I have a couple suggestions, but nothing I
have the time to take on currently, but I'll post those later.
-signing off from the Bizarre
-Pat
__
Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
lynch@bsdunix.net
Systems Administrator Rush Networking
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 6: 5:53 1999
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To: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
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Pat Lynch wrote:
>
> Of course they will fall short of calling the distribution some
> alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use
> "Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name.
>
!!!
I think we're doing much better than we were, FWIW. My prime suggestion
is that Walnut Creek put as many copies of the Power Pack and Applixware
FBSD on shelves as they can produce. I also think Ton Roosendaal should
be contacted to see if he would let WC package Blender in a box. I think
it's a great marketdroid-type decision to take freeware and print the
manuals and package it in a box. DO NOT bundle them together, the idea
is for people to see that there's STUFF TO BUY for FreeBSD. I think the
Power Pak is actually a mistake, it would be better to split out the
components as separate products. I'd much rather see 1) the Book, 2) the
OS, 3) the Bleeding Edge (CURRENT snapshot?), 4) the Toolkit, 5) the
Office Suite, and 6) the incredible graphics package Blender on the
shelves. It seems that part of the reason Linux has taken off at escape
velocity is that there's lots of stuff to buy, and the impulse to pull
out one's wallet overwhelms the brain's desire to make a technical
decision on an OS. I think it started when Linux people (including WC)
put Linux on the shelf. You had a purchase decision in front of you: Buy
Slackware or buy WGS, or buy ?. What we need to do is to make it buy
FreeBSD or buy RH or buy SuSE? We can't quickly put a gazillion books on
the shelf, but we can put FreeBSD-native open source products on the
shelf with pretty manuals. Such projects would be a lot simpler than the
Applix port was, and I think they'd have almost as much impact. There'd
be something new to look forward to buying every time you hit the store.
That would also be an argument to sell the store managers. Any time
there's a _line_ of related products they have more potential for
follow-on sales.
In a nutshell, gain retail shelf exposure!
--
Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros"
================= S i l v e r L y n x ===================
PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356
Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 6:48:29 1999
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From: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
To: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
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Pat, Sounds like you did a good job. I have a few suggestions.
> There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and
> the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first
> choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we
> identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will
> identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening.
>
Its way past time to drop "*BSD" and "BSD's" We need to adopt "BSD".
Our marketing approach needs to be targeted to tell people about BSD.
Only by harnessing the entire strength of the BSD community will people
realize just how big we are.
Personally, I think FreeBSD is almost as big as RedHat, however RedHat
isn't big enough to be "Linux" by itself, there are over 100 distributions
that make a big enough impact that Linux gets the press.
FreeBSD isn't big enough to storm the opensource market by itself.
NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI all have a pretty big market share. We all need
to push BSD and people will notice us. Our net presence is quite big when
you look at BSD.
BSD is a toolbox with several tools, FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, PicoBSD,
OpenBSD, etc...
If people feel they can switch between them to use the right one to get
the job done, they will stay with BSD because there is a BSD to fit all
their needs. The specialization we have achieved, makes us stronger than
Linux and we need to market that.
I'll get off my soap box now.
Chris Coleman
Daemon News Editor in Chief
http://www.daemonnews.org
Bringing BSD together
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 8:26:20 1999
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From: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
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To: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
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Thanks, that actually solidified things in my mind. Theres been alot of
talk about "tools" herem and describing BSD as a toolkit is a great way to
go about it. Thanks.
-Pat
__
Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
lynch@bsdunix.net
Systems Administrator Rush Networking
On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Chris Coleman wrote:
> Pat, Sounds like you did a good job. I have a few suggestions.
>
>
> > There were several, very well known problems identified with the BSD's and
> > the advocacy movement (I call myself a pan-BSD advocate, while my first
> > choice is obvious by the clothes I wear to these things , FreeBSD) and we
> > identitifed problems but no solutions, hopefully Marc Rassbach and I will
> > identify some possible solutions by the time we all leave this evening.
> >
>
> Its way past time to drop "*BSD" and "BSD's" We need to adopt "BSD".
>
> Our marketing approach needs to be targeted to tell people about BSD.
> Only by harnessing the entire strength of the BSD community will people
> realize just how big we are.
>
> Personally, I think FreeBSD is almost as big as RedHat, however RedHat
> isn't big enough to be "Linux" by itself, there are over 100 distributions
> that make a big enough impact that Linux gets the press.
>
> FreeBSD isn't big enough to storm the opensource market by itself.
> NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDI all have a pretty big market share. We all need
> to push BSD and people will notice us. Our net presence is quite big when
> you look at BSD.
>
> BSD is a toolbox with several tools, FreeBSD, NetBSD, BSDI, PicoBSD,
> OpenBSD, etc...
>
> If people feel they can switch between them to use the right one to get
> the job done, they will stay with BSD because there is a BSD to fit all
> their needs. The specialization we have achieved, makes us stronger than
> Linux and we need to market that.
>
> I'll get off my soap box now.
>
> Chris Coleman
> Daemon News Editor in Chief
> http://www.daemonnews.org
> Bringing BSD together
>
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:10:29 1999
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Pat Lynch' <lynch@bsdunix.net>,
"'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
Subject: RE: The Bazaar part II
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:09:54 -0500
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Hi,
I'm new to the advocacy list and pretty new to FreeBSD, I have been using
and learning it for about 6 months now and ready to start doing some
programming specifically FreeBSD related. In my professional life, I'm a
programmer - Object Pascal, some C++ and SQL, and unfortunately I'm stuck in
a WinTel shop, but hopefully that is changing. And with that on to my
thoughts and opinions on this subject.
So, I came to FBSD after 2 years of 'play' with Linux. I went to Linux
because I hated windows every since 2.0 and what it did to the whole PC
community. Linux was the first Free OS I had heard of So I gave it a shot.
At First I thought it was great. Then when I really started trying to become
productive it didn't hold up to the hype (at least for me). I wasn't about
to go back to Windows so I didn't know what. I debated a return to DOS until
I remembered that cute little devil (I now know it's a daemon) I had seen in
on a web site somewhere.
So know I preach FreeBSD to my co-workers. And it always the same first
question. "What is that?" Where as when I spoke of Linux advocacy it never
was "what's that it's" but "Is it better that windows", "Is it hard to
install", "what kind of apps are there" or some question that didn't require
me to sit down and explain the genesis of the OS. Now being that I work with
a bunch of programmers, DBAs and Tech guys you would think that BSD had some
recognition factor but no it does seem to. Here is a prime example of *BSD
needing exposure. I seems to me that if your in a tech community and they
have no clue as to what it even is there is a problem in the marketing.
Although, recently I have seen full size ads in Linux Journal for FreeBSD.
That's a start.
One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD
there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with
tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my
web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement in
general.
I believe that you are write in saying that it takes a lot of energy
to advocate. Not only that but it takes a lot of time. This seems to
something that people who use *BSD actually lack. Linux seem more for
younger up and coming hackers/programmers etc. But the BSD are for those who
know what they want and need to get it done without having to hack a patch
to make it work correctly. I think free time of the advocates is the biggest
obstacle. I maybe wrong, I'm not sure but that how I see it. I keep try to
put in the time I can on what ever I can but life, advocacy and work just
are mixed enough in my life now to be much help. "TO gain notoriety, we have
to lose our strength?" I really like that. I think that sums up my whole
rant here. Hell I might even use that as my new sig. :)
Rod
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:15:45 1999
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From: "Haikal Saadh" <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>
To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: <advocacy@freebsd.org>
References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA5E@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>
Subject: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:24:58 +0530
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> One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
> hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
> pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD
> there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
> 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with
> tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my
> web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement
in
> general.
Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd
ports tree?
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:19:42 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:19:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
To: Haikal Saadh <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
In-Reply-To: <003d01bf47e6$4ab21c20$86c101ca@bandhu>
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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote:
> > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
> > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
> > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD
> > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
> > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with
> > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my
> > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement
> in
> > general.
>
> Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd
> ports tree?
Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
Chris Coleman
Daemon News Editor in Chief
http://www.daemonnews.org
Bringing BSD together
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:25: 8 1999
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From: "Haikal Saadh" <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>
To: "Chris Coleman" <chrisc@vmunix.com>
Cc: <advocacy@freebsd.org>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9912161218260.20971-100000@vnode.vmunix.com>
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:34:38 +0530
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----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
To: Haikal Saadh <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>
Cc: Person, Roderick <personrp@ccbh.com>; <advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote:
>
> > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There
add
> > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD
web
> > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for
FreeBSD
> > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of
a
> > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users
with
> > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of
rededicating my
> > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source
movement
> > in
> > > general.
> >
> > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the
freebsd
> > ports tree?
>
> Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
>
I would imagine, no.
freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for
the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter of
getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD.
Of course, freshmeat.daemonnews.org sounds just as well..a joint venture
between DN and freshmeat, perhaps?
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:26:59 1999
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Haikal Saadh' <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
"Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:26:08 -0500
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I have to be honest on this, never much cared for the design of freshmeat
when I used Linux only, so I did know about a FreeBSD ports available there.
But I do see that it still predominately a Linux site, even though I did see
the BeBits section, but still no open BSD endorsement or section...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haikal Saadh [SMTP:wyldephyre2@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:55 AM
> To: Person, Roderick
> Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org
> Subject: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
>
> > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
> > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
> > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for
> FreeBSD
> > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
> > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users
> with
> > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating
> my
> > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source
> movement
> in
> > general.
>
> Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the
> freebsd
> ports tree?
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:50:37 1999
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Haikal Saadh' <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:50:06 -0500
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I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be more
sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be able to
sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have you.
I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more harm
then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro.
Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html .
Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of Linux
only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity in
the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take the
FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries need
to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports collection
and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market your
targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the world
domination scope of attack.
> -----Original Message-----
>
> > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
> >
> I would imagine, no.
> freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for
> the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter
> of
> getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD.
> Of course, freshmeat.daemonnews.org sounds just as well..a joint venture
> between DN and freshmeat, perhaps?
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 9:56:24 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:57:37 +0100
From: Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
To: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Message-ID: <19991216185737.A17351@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
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Hi!
On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 10:34:38PM +0530, Haikal Saadh wrote:
>
> I would imagine, no.
> freshmeat.net offers a ports tree similar to our 'proper' ports tree, for
> the benefit of our linux using brethren. I think it would just a matter of
> getting someone to adapt the makefiles to freeBSD.
I imagine it would be more than just modifyng some Makefiles to get
this done... as I see it (I am a -STABLE user) we need a lot of catch-up
work if we want to compile and run the latest Linux apps on FBSD. (Binary
compatibility is rather good now.) The fact that we do not have all the
libraries the current linux distros have (at least in -STABLE we still are
at the level of RH 5.x which becomes quickly outdated.) makes porting hard.
Also in Linux development is much more individualistic there is nothing to bar
somebody from
using stuff from wherever using includes, libraries etc as they choose.
That is why before downloading a Linux app you always have to check very
carefully the sysreqs. That is why you often have to upgrade the gcc or libc
just because of a new app that requests this. This leads to very nasty
problems with key components getting out of sync and a frequent need for
tricks and tips to keep the thing going. This is almost a non-issue with FBSD
if you are tracking -STABLE in reasonable intervals, you likely have everything
you need. Maybe that is why we have fewer 'insider tips'?
I even have seen Linux progs that would only compile against a particular
revision of a library from a CVS repository. I do not think this heterogenity
fits in well
with our practice. The "problem" if you wanna have it that way is not new:
What already *is* implemented in BSD tends to work solidly and is developed
until it reaches a great degree of maturity. But this approach obviously
makes it quite impossible to track every new trend and make it conform to
our ideals. We chose perfection over speed, that's it.
Regards:
Szilveszter ADAM
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu *
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* Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. *
* I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... *
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 10: 8:33 1999
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Szilveszter Adam' <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>,
advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:08:00 -0500
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>That is why you often have to upgrade the gcc or libc
>just because of a new app that requests this. This leads to very
nasty
>problems with key components getting out of sync and a frequent
need for
>tricks and tips to keep the thing going. This is almost a non-issue
with FBSD
>if you are tracking -STABLE in reasonable intervals,
That is exactly why I gave up on Linux. The last time I did that I wanted a
68k news reader and had to download 175M of stuff to upgrade my entire
system. Gladly I have never done this on FBSD. Examples, such as this, need
to be put in the face of Linux users and advocates. This is the prefect type
of promotion to attest to the power of BSD.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 11: 3:25 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:04:40 +0100
From: Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
To: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: BSD software
Message-ID: <19991216200440.B17351@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
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In-Reply-To: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA61@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>; from personrp@ccbh.com on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:08:00PM -0500
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Hi!
On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:08:00PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote:
> That is exactly why I gave up on Linux. The last time I did that I wanted a
> 68k news reader and had to download 175M of stuff to upgrade my entire
> system. Gladly I have never done this on FBSD. Examples, such as this, need
> to be put in the face of Linux users and advocates. This is the prefect type
> of promotion to attest to the power of BSD.
Well, this example must be rather extreme, on the other hand... but yes,
these benefits need to be emphasized. Also the fact that many BSD flavors
have the ability to receive source upgrades via cvsup and then remake the
world (well, I am not sure for NetBSD and do not think it is possible with
BSDI)
But the place where we
need to put these facts is the mainstream media and places like the Bazaar,
instead of in the face of Linux advocates.
Otherwise you will be in for some religious battle in which nobody is right
and yet everybody has valid points. It is not them who need convincing IMHO.
Especially because I have not heard many rants against any BSD from the
Linux people, which was not always true from our side. (In fact when I
talked to Linux fans at a computer fair last spring here, they were kind of
respectful towards me as soon as they learned that I used BSD. They
considered it to be some sort of "more serious thing" compared to Linux...
it was interesting and heartwarming to hear this.:-)
And till the time an average manager or someone interested outsider gets the
idea there is still a long way to go... when you talk to them about their
computing experience they usually consider DOS and different versions of Win as
alternatives to each other...and some of them have heard of MacOS. The IT
press also does things wrong by only offering tips for Win and also lots of
shareware and the Linux sections are kinda "for serious hackers only" so
that average people get scared away. And when it comes to discussing
alternatives, they rant about rare things like BeOS or some really
outlandish (for most people)
things like the Amiga or ZX-Spectrum so that the whole thing has no more
than pure entertainment value. The mind boggles. At least this is the
situation here in Hungary now.
Regards:
Szilveszter ADAM
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu *
* Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua *
* Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. *
* I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... *
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 12:46:50 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:46:12 +0000
From: Joseph Scott <joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu>
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To: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
Cc: Haikal Saadh <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
"Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
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Chris Coleman wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote:
>
> > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
> > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
> > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD
> > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
> > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with
> > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my
> > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement
> > in
> > > general.
> >
> > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd
> > ports tree?
>
> Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
This is something that I've thought a bit. I'd really like to see
something like freshmeat.net for the ports collection. Maybe even
tying into freshmeat.net for crossover stuff.
I think this is a neat idea, my schedule is getting a little heavy,
but I'd be interested in something like this.
--
Joseph Scott
joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu
Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 12:50:33 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:50:01 +0000
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To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: "'Haikal Saadh'" <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
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"Person, Roderick" wrote:
>
> I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be more
> sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be able to
> sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have you.
>
> I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more harm
> then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro.
I wasn't really thinking of a joint venture so much as a site in the
same vain as freshmeat.net ( vain != design ) for the ports/packages
collection.
>
> Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html .
> Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of Linux
> only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity in
> the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take the
> FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries need
> to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports collection
> and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market your
> targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the world
> domination scope of attack.
Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt binaries
based on the ports collection.
--
Joseph Scott
joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu
Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:11:12 1999
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Message-ID: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>
From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Joseph Scott' <joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu>
Cc: 'Haikal Saadh' <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:10:36 -0500
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> Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt
binaries
> based on the ports collection.
Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I
use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside
of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist
anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home
page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I
download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD
centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on
FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD
package, maybe just a binary tar.
I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Scott [SMTP:joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 3:50 PM
> To: Person, Roderick
> Cc: 'Haikal Saadh'; Chris Coleman; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
>
>
> "Person, Roderick" wrote:
> >
> > I would say you need to spawn a site off either, but there need to be
> more
> > sites. People want choices variety. People are greedy and want to be
> able to
> > sustain that greed whether it's for food, knowledge, money or what have
> you.
> >
> > I would be leery of a daemon news/ freshmet venture, it could do more
> harm
> > then good making FreeBSD just another Linux Distro.
>
> I wasn't really thinking of a joint venture so much as a site in the
> same vain as freshmeat.net ( vain != design ) for the ports/packages
> collection.
>
> >
> > Look at this site http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~conradp/linux/test.html .
> > Every link here is Linux. Linux Magazines, Clothing tons and tons of
> Linux
> > only stuff. This is what I mean by need more web sites, more diversity
> in
> > the sites. The Ports Tree is a wonderful thing, but if you want to take
> the
> > FreeBSD market where the Linux market is the more pre-compile binaries
> need
> > to be available. Not everyone wants to download the entire ports
> collection
> > and do builds via a network connections. It all depends on what market
> your
> > targeting what type of additions need to be made. Myself I like the
> world
> > domination scope of attack.
>
>
> --
>
> Joseph Scott
> joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu
> Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:18:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:17:36 +0000
From: Joseph Scott <joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu>
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To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: "'Haikal Saadh'" <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
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"Person, Roderick" wrote:
>
>> Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt binaries
>> based on the ports collection.
> Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I
> use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside
> of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist
> anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home
> page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I
> download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD
> centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on
> FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD
> package, maybe just a binary tar.
>
> I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats.
Ok I think I see what you are talking about. Would it be safe to sum
up what you are describing as : something similar to freshmeat.net
with a focus on FreeBSD apps?
That being said you may want to check out :
http://www.bsdapps.org
I'm not sure how much is there. It takes work to come up with all
this stuff :-)
If you are interested in something like a freshmeat.net for BSD then
I would either talk to the bsdapps.org folks and help them by
volunteering some time/effort or come up with a design/proposal for a
new site.
--
Joseph Scott
joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu
Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 13:28:28 1999
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From: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
To: 'Joseph Scott' <joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu>
Cc: 'Haikal Saadh' <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: RE: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:27:45 -0500
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Well I guess this is along the lines of what I mean. I'll have to check it
out more and e-mail them too. Thanks!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Scott [SMTP:joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 4:18 PM
> To: Person, Roderick
> Cc: 'Haikal Saadh'; Chris Coleman; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
>
>
> "Person, Roderick" wrote:
> >
> >> Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt
> binaries
> >> based on the ports collection.
>
> > Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections.
> I
> > use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist
> outside
> > of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist
> > anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the
> Home
> > page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I
> > download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a
> FreeBSD
> > centric site that includes such apps that aren't found anywhere on
> > FreeBSD.org in a binary and source package - not necessarily a FreeBSD
> > package, maybe just a binary tar.
> >
> > I think were arguing for the same thing but with different formats.
>
> Ok I think I see what you are talking about. Would it be safe to
> sum
> up what you are describing as : something similar to freshmeat.net
> with a focus on FreeBSD apps?
>
> That being said you may want to check out :
>
> http://www.bsdapps.org
>
> I'm not sure how much is there. It takes work to come up with all
> this stuff :-)
>
> If you are interested in something like a freshmeat.net for BSD then
> I would either talk to the bsdapps.org folks and help them by
> volunteering some time/effort or come up with a design/proposal for a
> new site.
>
> --
>
> Joseph Scott
> joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu
> Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14: 4:52 1999
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From: "Ignacio Cristerna" <ignacioc@avantel.net>
To: <advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:03:05 -0600
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Jeez, I love it when the FreeBSD list brings a lot of e-mails. It means the
community is alive and well. I wish the FreeBSD sites could show that energy
and life.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14:24:20 1999
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To: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:31:43 EST."
<Pine.BSF.4.05.9912160745260.10407-100000@bytor.rush.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:23:57 -0800
Message-ID: <63617.945383037@zippy.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
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> OK, so we're all at the Bazaar , ok well theres only 5 or 6 of us, but hey
> its a start, we've unloaded over 50 CD's , 6 beanie Daemons, one small
> plushie Daemon and 4 or 5 mousepads, a toolkit cd, and a snapshot CD.
> and we're making it know that despite the fact that this conference is so
> Linux oriented, we're not about to let people forget us.
This sounds like a more than reasonable achievement, folks - don't
beat yourselves up! The fact that there was a tangible presence there
at all is what should be applauded, especially once you do your
homework a little and calculate just how many shows go by where
there's little or no presence at all. It sounds like you've shown the
Linux people who attended that the BSDs are still alive and kicking,
and from such small seeds often grow many interesting things. :)
> alamagamation of core team members names (or maybe we should just use
> "Hubbix" (Jordan?)) as the OS name.
Retch!
> the rooftops. These kinds of activitiess thake alot out ot of us. After 3
> days I'm pretty burnt out. I wonder how Jordan does it, or is he burnt
> too? ;)
I'm definitely not immune to burn-out and that's why I wasn't in NYC
this December. I had to take at least a month off. :)
> Anyway getting back on track, he said, we've got some real technical
> strengths over linux, but without he head-on approach in advocacy, he sees
> it sinking.
Eric has always predicted the falling of the BSD sky and I don't see
how this latest commentary is inconsistent in any way with his
previous positions. We can only but prove his pessimism to be
misplaced by stubbornly refusing to sink. :)
> He said that he thinks we *are* growing, and doing just fine. I think at
> some point that were going to contact Walnut Creek or FreeBSD.org about
> marketing the Complete FreeBSD and the 4 CD set.
That would be great, have them drop us a line.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 14:29:49 1999
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To: dwilde1@thuntek.net
Cc: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:10:12 MST."
<3858F2C4.57480E83@thuntek.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:29:15 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
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> it's a great marketdroid-type decision to take freeware and print the
> manuals and package it in a box. DO NOT bundle them together, the idea
> is for people to see that there's STUFF TO BUY for FreeBSD. I think the
> Power Pak is actually a mistake, it would be better to split out the
> components as separate products.
Heh, unfortunately, this is engineer-thinking rather than channel
sales thinking. :) First off, the components are available split off
as separate products and have been for far longer than the PowerPak
has been a discrete product. The Pak was created due to retailer
demand, who didn't *want* a whole bunch of $39.95 products (on which
they make little) on the shelves and taking up valuable shelf space.
They wanted something more compact and priced up around $59.00 and so
that's what they got. You don't dictate terms to the channel, it
dictates terms to you and you better listen or you don't get to stay
in there very long. :-)
> shelves. It seems that part of the reason Linux has taken off at escape
> velocity is that there's lots of stuff to buy, and the impulse to pull
And the retailers hate this, the only thing keeping them stocking all
those diverse products is the fact that the products are all in
competition with one another and there's no *hope* of consolidation.
The size of the Linux market means the retailers have to still devote
the shelf space, but they don't have to be happy about it. We,
unfortunately, are too small to get away with that kind of
behavior. :)
Not to say that retailers wouldn't mind more products in the FreeBSD
line, they just want them to cost more than $50. This means creating
bundles of some sort since raising the price of the base product would
suck rocks and everyone here would agree.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 15:13:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:18:04 -0700
From: Donald Wilde <dwilde1@thuntek.net>
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Organization: Wilde Media
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freeBSD.org
Subject: Re: The Bazaar part II
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"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
>
Not to say that retailers wouldn't mind more products in the FreeBSD
> line, they just want them to cost more than $50. This means creating
> bundles of some sort since raising the price of the base product would
> suck rocks and everyone here would agree.
>
> - Jordan
Is THAT why we can't buy any $299 Pentiums? I thought it was just
Windoooooozzzzzzeee.....
Thanks for the comments, Jordan. As I live, I learn. :-)
--
Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros"
================= S i l v e r L y n x ===================
PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356
Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 16:24:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:24:15 -0500 (EST)
From: John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>
To: Ignacio Cristerna <ignacioc@avantel.net>
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org
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On 16-Dec-99 Ignacio Cristerna wrote:
> Jeez, I love it when the FreeBSD list brings a lot of e-mails. It means the
> community is alive and well. I wish the FreeBSD sites could show that energy
> and life.
You should be reading -current, -hackers, or cvs-all then. They almost always
have lots of posts. :)
--
John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 20:22:32 1999
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Message-Id: <3859BA98.EE868489@softweyr.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:22:48 -0700
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
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To: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>
Cc: Haikal Saadh <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
"Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BAS software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
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Chris Coleman wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Haikal Saadh wrote:
>
> > > One thing I think FreeBSD can benefit from is more web pages! There add
> > > hundred of Linux pages and as far as I know there a maybe 12 FreeBSD web
> > > pages. You can go to LinuxBerg to find any app for Linux. But for FreeBSD
> > > there is only FreeBSD.org for apps. I think there needs to be more of a
> > > 'third part' presence in the FBSD web community. More pages by users with
> > > tips, tricks, custom app whatever. I have been thinking of rededicating my
> > > web site to such things instead of being a focus for open source movement
> > in
> > > general.
> >
> > Hmm...maybe someone could tie in the freshmeat.net ports tree to the freebsd
> > ports tree?
>
> Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
http://apps.daemonnews.org. I like that. It'd be really cool if it could
cross-refence the ports/packages for {Free,Net,Open}BSD automagically,
indicating which are available on each platform.
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 16 20:32: 4 1999
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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:32:02 -0700
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
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To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: "'Joseph Scott'" <joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu>,
"'Haikal Saadh'" <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
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"Person, Roderick" wrote:
>
> > Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt
> binaries
> > based on the ports collection.
> Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I
> use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside
> of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist
> anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home
> page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I
> download the source and compiled it for FBSD.
So the appropriate thing to do would be:
a) Create a port kit that will fetch, patch (if needed), make,
and install it on FreeBSD.
b) Submit the port via send-pr and/or a friendly neighborhood
committer.
c) Then port it to NetBSD and OpenBSD. Shuffle the order of
BSDs to your liking. If you need access to a NetBSD or
OpenBSD machine, this can probably be provided.
d) Tell the world about it on a site devoted to BSD apps.
This mythological site could/should also offer porting helps, maybe a mailing
list or two, an IRC channel, and perhaps even access to porting machines.
I'll just be we can get kind-hearted FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD users to
open up their machines, or donate machines to the site, for porting work.
We don't need 4300 different sites all with a different, incompatible list
of some things that may or may not run on your machine, we need ONE really
good site with ONE exhaustive, authoritative list of EVERYTHING that runs
on your BSD machine. Then we need to tell everyone on the planet how to get
to it.
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:13:20 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc: Chris Coleman <chrisc@vmunix.com>,
Haikal Saadh <wyldephyre2@yahoo.com>,
"Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BAS software
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On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Wes Peters wrote:
> > Does Daemon News need to spawn a new site?
>
> http://apps.daemonnews.org. I like that. It'd be really cool if it could
> cross-refence the ports/packages for {Free,Net,Open}BSD automagically,
> indicating which are available on each platform.
>
Actually it would also be nice of people who are ports maintainers can
learn the differences btwn each of the project's port stuff (theres only a
couple things) and write makefiles/patches for ports so they compile on
all three platforms, and submit them to each ports/pkg-src maintainer.
I'm working on some ports for a couple things (although in light of my
recent job move and my recent advocacy efforts, some things have been
pushed aside, but one is a Listar port (which is actually almost ready and
pretty trivial), and would be nice to get into the ports tree. But I also
want it to go in all three package/ports collections.
anyway, I'm at work so actually have something to do after being gone for
three days, but I'll report back on the rest of the Bazaar when I get a
chance, and what I see as having been accomplished.
-Pat
__
Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
lynch@bsdunix.net
Systems Administrator Rush Networking
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:33:54 1999
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From: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
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To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-jobs@freebsd.org
Subject: linux in the schools (fwd)
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I know its not alot of money, but its practically a volunteer position, so
if anyone in the New York City area is interested, let me know or contact
lucia@lrw.net
the second thing on here is a chance to semi-wire a school, and start them
out with FreeBSD possibly, they are currently thinking of using linux, but
I assume that they will probably use whatever the volunteer advises them
to. ;)
-Pat
__
Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
lynch@bsdunix.net
Systems Administrator Rush Networking
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:20:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Lucia Ruedenberg Wright <lucia@lrw.net>
To: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
Cc: Randy Wright <rw26@lrw.net>
Subject: linux in the schools
Hi Pat - you spoke up at today's panel on linux in the schools, thinking
you might know of someone who could take a sysadmin position for a while
to help out the alternative school district convert their schools labs to
linux.
Randy thinks that there is money for such a position at around
$40,000/year. If you think you can find somebody who would be interested,
please contact us and I'll forward the info on to Shantanu Saha, the
systems engineer there.
also, if you are interested in helping Jack Giordano at VTC (Vocational
Training Center) let me know. You can check out the website with contact
info and school needs:
http://lxk12.org
You can contact Jack at 718-289-5746
Tell him you got the number from me and are interested in helping out,
he should update you and make a date to meet at the school.
Lucia
___________________________________________________________
lucia@lrw.net http://www.lrw.net/~lucia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You don't stop playing because you grow old;
You grow old because you stop playing.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 8:38:40 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:40:21 +0100
From: Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BAS software
Message-ID: <19991217174021.D12454@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
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Hi!
On Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:12:50AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Wes Peters wrote:
>
>
> Actually it would also be nice of people who are ports maintainers can
> learn the differences btwn each of the project's port stuff (theres only a
> couple things) and write makefiles/patches for ports so they compile on
> all three platforms, and submit them to each ports/pkg-src maintainer.
Hmmmm.... Of course this would be great! But have you considered this:
FreeBSD has it easy because we mainly have to care for the x86 platform (yes
sure we also support Alpha but there is a huge difference in the user
base...) whereas OpenBSD also supports Alpha and the Sparc. NetBSD supports
an endless variety of platforms. And the user base of those flavors is a much
more balanced mix. For example surprisingly many people are running OpenBSD on
the Sparc. And of course they all want ports available. With some ports this
is no problem, but even we have a couple of
ONLY_FOR_ARCHS ports which in practice means only for x86... and consider
that even in (Open|Net)BSD with its multiplatform focus there are some
fundamental things missing from non-x86 implementations, like virtual
consoles for the Sparc which makes this work you are proposing a huge one
with a need for many development machines and experienced programmers...
and also on OpenBSD for example ports are only guaranteed to work on
-CURRENT, which in practice is a snapshot (there is no separate -CURRENT and
-STABLE branch on OBSD) and it makes testing difficult because it is
constantly moving target... but it would be really nice indeed to have this
sort of cooperation!
Just some quick thoughts...
Regards:
Szilveszter ADAM
--
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* Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu *
* Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua *
* Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. *
* I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... *
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 10:12:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:08:06 +0300
From: Alex Kapranoff <alex@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su>
To: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Message-ID: <19991217210806.B1038@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su>
References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu>
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On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 04:10:36PM -0500, Person, Roderick wrote:
> > Take a look at the packages collection, these are prebuilt
> binaries
> > based on the ports collection.
> Ok, maybe I'm just not clear enough. I know about the ports collections. I
> use it religiously. But, there has to be apps for freeBSD that exist outside
> of the ports collections. My favorite mail app from Linux doesn't exist
> anywhere on a FreeBSD, not in the ports not in the packages. But, the Home
> page of the apps suggested that it has be compile against FreeBSD. So, I
> download the source and compiled it for FBSD. I'm just suggesting a FreeBSD
Why don't you just submit that wonderful app to the ports collection?
Why create websites for searching FreeBSD-apps and not use the
www.freebsd.org/ports? You miss something from the list - then add it.
I think FreeBSD win in being centralized not scattered across the Net.
I believe that every program which is said to run on FreeBSD _should_ be
present in ports tree. So that I don't use some awkward websearch but just
cd /usr/ports; grep mail INDEX | more
--
Alex Kapranoff,
2:50/383.20@fidonet,
Voice: +7(0832)791845.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 14:42: 2 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:42:34 -0700
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
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To: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-jobs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: linux in the schools (fwd)
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Pat Lynch wrote:
>
> I know its not alot of money, but its practically a volunteer position, so
> if anyone in the New York City area is interested, let me know or contact
> lucia@lrw.net
>
> the second thing on here is a chance to semi-wire a school, and start them
> out with FreeBSD possibly, they are currently thinking of using linux, but
> I assume that they will probably use whatever the volunteer advises them
> to. ;)
This is a great idea!
Wait a minute, didn't somebody write a column about this not too long ago?
Let me see...
http://www.daemonnews.org/199901/d-advocate.html
Yup, there it is: ``Find somebody who needs some help and slip them a BSD
CD-ROM. Get involved with your local high school computer club, a UNIX user
group, ACM chapter, IEEE society, etc. ''
Close enough. What a great idea. ;^)
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 19: 3:21 1999
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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:03:14 +0000
From: Mark Ovens <mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org>
To: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: We're No. 1 :)
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Maybe I've missed a post here but it seems we're No.1 in the OS
ratings :) (of course *we* all knew that, it's just that everyone
else didn't)
http://www.deja.com/rate/list_items.xp?CID=11997
--
"there's a long-standing bug relating to the x86 architecture
that allows you to install Windows too ;"
-Matthew D. Fuller
________________________________________________________________
FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/
mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 20:22: 8 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:20:36 -0700
From: Donald Wilde <dwilde1@thuntek.net>
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To: Mark Ovens <mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
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Mark Ovens wrote:
>
> Maybe I've missed a post here but it seems we're No.1 in the OS
> ratings :) (of course *we* all knew that, it's just that everyone
> else didn't)
>
> http://www.deja.com/rate/list_items.xp?CID=11997
>
Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen
where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many.
Jeez, even A/UX came up three times before BSD... Fortunately, NT came
up while I was hitting reload... <vicious STOMP, STOMP, STOMP EVIL
VERMIN>! Funny, how after I rated NT, it switched me to rating cellular
phones.... I had to start over from your original URL. :-) Gotcha,
finally, you ____! :-))) happy comper!
--
Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros"
================= S i l v e r L y n x ===================
PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356
Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Dec 17 20:59:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:57:06 -0600
From: Tim Tsai <tim@futuresouth.com>
To: Donald Wilde <dwilde1@thuntek.net>
Cc: Mark Ovens <mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :)
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> Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen
> where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many.
It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the
BSD link to rate it.
Tim
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 1:17:31 1999
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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 01:19:38 -0800
From: Brent Kearney <brent@kearneys.ca>
To: Konrad Heuer <kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de>
Cc: FreeBSD Questions <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org>,
freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Observations from Germany
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9912162114590.21150-100000@gwdu60.gwdg.de>; from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de on Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 09:34:44PM +0100
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On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 09:34:44PM +0100, Konrad Heuer wrote:
>
> I see that SuSE does a good job in Germany. SuSE Linux is nowadays offered
> by large purchasers and mail-order-houses like Comtech (a large
><snip>
> seemed to move exclusively to the Windows systems. On the other hand, I
> would much more like to see FreeBSD in that context than SuSE Linux
The primary reason why SuSE, RedHat, etc, enjoy commercial success is because
they are commercial enterprises with those goals in mind. Riding the wave of
Linux hysteria, these companies produce significantly different Operating
Systems, although because they all use the Linux kernel, tag "Linux" on the
end of their corporate identities, and reap the efforts of the open source
community to produce the products that they market.
How can FreeBSD maximize the benefit from the Linux hysteria? The approach
so far seems to be largely "grassroots" campaigning. With more and more techies
discovering the benefits of FreeBSD, it squeaks into the scaffolding of the
Internet.
I think the latest media blips about FreeBSD, "Even better than Linux?",
etc., are exactly what the FreeBSD community needs. The media loves mystery
and hype. Were a company to evangelize FreeBSD the way that SuSE and RedHat do
for Linux, this hype might reach similar proportions, and the OS could gain
similar popularity.
This is all, of course, purely speculative. I know nothing about gaining the
support of hardware vendors. Just a little armchair philosophy =)
-Brent
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 5:26:32 1999
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From: "Chris Silva" <bitsurfr@enteract.com>
To: <advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: RE: We're No. 1 :)
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 07:25:34 -0600
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Hmmm - maybe we ought to do something about this?!
http://www.dhbrown.com/dhbrown/OpSysScoreCard.cfm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Tim Tsai
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 10:57 PM
> To: Donald Wilde
> Cc: Mark Ovens; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :)
>
>
> > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen
> > where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many.
>
> It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the
> BSD link to rate it.
>
> Tim
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 6:15:14 1999
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Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:16:18 +0100
From: Szilveszter Adam <sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :)
Message-ID: <19991218151618.A8925@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu>
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On Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:25:34AM -0600, Chris Silva wrote:
> Hmmm - maybe we ought to do something about this?!
>
> http://www.dhbrown.com/dhbrown/OpSysScoreCard.cfm
>
As far as I can see they only rated products that are UNIX(r) systems.
(Yes, before you ask it also pertains to NT. According to the X/Open Group
techinically it also could receive the right to be a UNIX(r) if they applied
for it and its POSIX functionality were to be found adequate.
Now, that's funny. Check the X/Open Group website for details.)
This
seems to be rather a matter of principle which led them to overlook
everything else in the field. They also note that they were not interested
in market share, customer satisfaction or whatever, they only rank these
OS-es according to their techincal requirements.
Also they tout the 64-bit abilities and that is where we -due to the
huge user base on the x86 platform- are at a disadvantage, Alpha
notwithstanding.
Cheers:
Szilveszter ADAM
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Szilveszter ADAM * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu *
* Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua *
* Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. *
* I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... *
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Dec 18 7:15: 3 1999
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Subject: Re: We're No. 1 :)
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Tim Tsai wrote:
>
> > Considering that it took me morew than ten tries to get to the screen
> > where I could rate BSD, it is a wonder that we have even that many.
>
> It is strange the way it is layout - but you just have to click on the
> BSD link to rate it.
>
Doh! and me a web developer, no less. TNX!
--
Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros"
================= S i l v e r L y n x ===================
PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356
Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 19 16:17:39 1999
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From: Pat Lynch <lynch@bsdunix.net>
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To: marc rassbach <marc@tandem.milestonerdl.com>
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way to go!
also, if everyone requests a copy of the source of the modified GNU tar in
Veritas' NetBAckup, they would probably freak, and thats what I'm about to
do ;)
-Pat
__
Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
lynch@bsdunix.net
Systems Administrator Rush Networking
On Sun, 19 Dec 1999, marc rassbach wrote:
> This proves:
> http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/20/51/scoop/news.html#Linux
>
> If we beat the press over the head with the BSD *AND* Linux message, they
> respond!
>
> Go team BSD!
>
> (perhaps the 2000 glasses should be the self-apointed cry of 'this is the
> year of BSD publicity!'?)
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Dec 19 22:54:42 1999
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Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:53:11 +0200
From: Neil Blakey-Milner <nbm@mithrandr.moria.org>
To: Alex Kapranoff <alex@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su>
Cc: "Person, Roderick" <personrp@ccbh.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: BSD software [was Re: The Bazaar part II]
Message-ID: <19991220085311.B38843@mithrandr.moria.org>
References: <576A688A7DA7D011899B00805FEA1AFF9ADA63@sych02.isdip.upmc.edu> <19991217210806.B1038@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su>
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On Fri 1999-12-17 (21:08), Alex Kapranoff wrote:
> I think FreeBSD win in being centralized not scattered across the Net.
> I believe that every program which is said to run on FreeBSD _should_ be
> present in ports tree. So that I don't use some awkward websearch but just
>
> cd /usr/ports; grep mail INDEX | more
How about:
cd /usr/ports && make search key=mail
*grin*
Neil
--
Neil Blakey-Milner
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Dec 20 21:24:18 1999
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>
> oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the
> embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom.
I've heard similar opinions elsewhere. What I really love about
free-bsd (asside from the fact that it is a true UNIX, has vnodes
and etc.) is how well organized the build tree is. Linux is such
a mess. And even Red Hat looks all bits and pieces. Does it do
dependancies? If so, you have to work at it. What a pain!
Ahh, the beauty of FreeBSD. The obvious works! I go to the location
of the product I wish to install. I insert a tarball CD if I have one.
I type make. And voila--I'm Alfred E. Newman. It's a piece of cake.
So why should I bother with some fancy-schmancy (rather expensive
looking) and not very unix looking red-hat os, when I can have: The
Pure, the Tested, The "I don't cost you a disk partition every time you
want to add more than 135M of swap" Operating sysem, Chuck-ee's in Love,
MR. FreeBSD!!! : )
(I'm not an advocate... do I look like an advocate..? 8 }
John Barnes
>
> Anyway, thoughts? opinions? I have a couple suggestions, but nothing I
> have the time to take on currently, but I'll post those later.
>
> -signing off from the Bizarre
>
> -Pat
>
> __
>
> Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net
> lynch@bsdunix.net
> Systems Administrator Rush Networking
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 21 1:55:46 1999
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shadowfx wrote:
>
> >
> > oh, the one other thing, Marc suggested we go into advoacting in the
> > embedded market, where our licensing allows much more freedom.
If you agree with this, you're going to enjoy next month's Daemons Advocate
column. Stay tuned.
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Dec 21 10:35:54 1999
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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:35:49 -0500 (EST)
From: James Howard <howardjp@wam.umd.edu>
To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Byte/Russia
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Among other items in my (snail) mail this morning was a copy of
Byte/Russia. My ability to speak Russian is very low and my ability to
write it is even lower. However, on page 76 is a translated version of
"The Real FreeBSD" from the September DaemonNews. There are some other
things about FreeBSD too, but I am not able to tell what it means :)
If anyone speaks Russian well, check it out.
--
Jamie Howard
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 7:50:53 1999
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so, a founding member comes home for the holidays....
sure the 1st sounds good as long as I can start moving stuff to my new
apartment during the day....
anyway let me know what's up, I'm almost up for a quiet party at the new
place except I'm not sure we'll definitely be in by then.
-Pat
__
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lynch@unix.sh
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 7:53:46 1999
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I sent that to the wrong list, meant to go to -chat instead, my humble
apologies.
I have advocacy on the brain.
-Pat
__
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Dec 22 16:56: 4 1999
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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:15 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: James Howard <howardjp@wam.umd.edu>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Byte/Russia
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On Tuesday, 21 December 1999 at 13:35:49 -0500, James Howard wrote:
> Among other items in my (snail) mail this morning was a copy of
> Byte/Russia. My ability to speak Russian is very low and my ability
> to write it is even lower. However, on page 76 is a translated
> version of "The Real FreeBSD" from the September DaemonNews.
In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon
News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note
my name at the end on page 81.
> There are some other things about FreeBSD too, but I am not able to
> tell what it means :)
The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the
Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56.
> If anyone speaks Russian well, check it out.
Well, that eliminates me :-) But the only other stuff I saw were
short news articles on page 91: an ad for the FreeBSDCon, information
about reorganizations in NetBSD and the release of 1.4.1 and something
about OpenBSD which I don't understand enough to quote.
One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical
detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also
give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96
pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an
almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long,
article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing.
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 18:26:37 1999
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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 21:26:17 -0500 (EST)
From: James Howard <howardjp@wam.umd.edu>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Byte/Russia
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On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote:
> In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon
> News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note
> my name at the end on page 81.
In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article
on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name
at the end of page 77. :)
> The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the
> Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56.
Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we
are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the
November issue. Which one do you have?
> One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical
> detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also
> give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96
> pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an
> almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long,
> article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing.
Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles
on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in
here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :)
Jamie
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 19:23:48 1999
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Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:53:50 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: James Howard <howardjp@wam.umd.edu>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Byte/Russia
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On Thursday, 23 December 1999 at 21:26:17 -0500, James Howard wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> In fact, it's a translation of "UNIX or BSD?" from the June Daemon
>> News (http://www.daemonnews.org/199906/d-advocate.html). You'll note
>> my name at the end on page 81.
>
> In the copy in my hand, page 81 is smack dead in the middle of an article
> on Perl (cannot miss Larry Wall and his shirts...). You'll note my name
> at the end of page 77. :)
>
>> The other main articles are a translation of "The Cathedral and the
>> Bazaar" on page 16 and "ISDN Networking" on page 56.
>
> Those are articles on bug reports and notebooks, respectively. I think we
> are talking about two different issues. I think I said it was in the
> November issue. Which one do you have?
Ah, I was beginning to think I got something wrong here. Yes, this is
the October issue.
>> One thing that does impress me about the magazine is the technical
>> detail, which I haven't seen in a US magazine for decades. They also
>> give a surprising amount of attention to UNIX. The magazine is 96
>> pages, including all ads, and 22 of them are about UNIX. There's an
>> almost total lack of Microsoft (just a single, albeit rather long,
>> article about setting up TCP/IP on Windoze). Very refreshing.
>
> Indeed, I was freaking astouned by that. There were some other articles
> on Linux, which of course, I cannot make out, except for "Linux" stuck in
> here and there. Definetly my kind of people. :)
Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-)
Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Dec 23 21:41:49 1999
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From: James Howard <howardjp@wam.umd.edu>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: Re: Byte/Russia
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On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote:
> Right. Well, there could be more BSD :-)
Always. Since they did take from DaemonNews for both October and
November, does anyone know if they did for this month as well?
Jamie
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