From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 04:56:37 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:56:32 -0800 (PST)
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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Subject: Re: Linus on IRC
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> From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
> Date: 13 Feb 1999 01:48:08 +0100
> 
> I suggest less fanaticism and more rationality. And folks, please let's
> drop the unwarranted ad hominem attacks. Lately, with the rising anti-
> Microsoft sentiments, people paint Bill Gates as some kind of devil.
> This is absurd. Mr. Gates is simply a very successful business man.
> Whether due to great ability or sheer luck I can't tell and I don't
> particularly care about. Now similar mud slinging appears in the BSD
> community directed against Linus Torvalds.
  
  and richard nixon was just a very successful president.
  let's not harp upon the illegal activities of they people.

jmb

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 06:12:18 1999
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: tlambert@primenet.com
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> From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:45:11 +0000 (GMT)
> 
> Yes, it is, from a commercial standpoint.  So is BSD.  Both of them
> have interfaces that change far too frequently to be worthwhile
> porting all the software that exists to them.  You write something
> for DOS or Windows, and it continues to run forever.  Same for

  for very short values of forever unless you discount unscheduled
  reboots.  ;)

jmb

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 11:00:16 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:59:58 -0700
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
 
>*NOTE* This has been moved to chat.
>
>BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
>been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
>off. 

And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they 
intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for 
patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
the event uses Linux, and only Linux.

It's also worth noting that the Bay Area organizers are telling users 
of alternative operating systems that are NOT "open source" that they 
must do "separate" protests. This includes BSDi, as well as Solaris,
BeOs, OS/2, NetWare, etc. They are also making sure that the URL that's
popularized as having information about the event is the URL of a
site devoted to Linux. They're turning the event not into a genuine
protest against Microsoft's tactics but rather into a publicity stunt
for their one alternative.

BAFUG should make DARN sure that the press knows it's there. Better
bring BIG banners with "FreeBSD" and the daemon logo displayed
prominently -- not to mention disks, buttons, and T-shirts, if possible. 
And TALK to the press -- as much as the Linuxoids, if not more so. Don't 
let the Linux "handlers" be the only ones represented in the reports. 
You can bet that the rabid Linux zealots  will try to give the impression 
that everyone there is a Linux user, or that BSD is somehow "the same as"
Linux and need not be mentioned.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 11:46:12 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:46:02 -0800
From: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 11:59:58AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
>  
> >BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
> >been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
> >off. 
> 
> And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
> that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
> press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they 
> intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for 
> patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
> the event uses Linux, and only Linux.

Brett, your zealotry has reached unprecedented heights.  Please keep
all harping about the evils of Linux limited to GPL/FSF/Stallman-
related topics.  Those at least make sense and are within the realm
of possibility.

>From the very first paragraph of <http://hugin.imat.com/refund/>, the
Bay Area refund organization:

"If you are a user of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or another
free/Open Source operating system, you may be entitled to a refund
for unused Microsoft products bundled with your computer."

The Bay Area movement, and Rick Moen in particular, has done a 
fantastic job of uniting different OS camps in this effort, achieving
that goal without any sniping between camps (until you had to shoot
off your mouth/fingers).  Just admit that, for this one day, all Open
Source (and even all non-Microsoft) OSes have a common enemy.  If you
can't do that, then just shut up and let the rest of us try to get our
money back.  You can resume your regular tirade on February 16th.

Regards,

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                 Bureaucrats cut red tape -- lengthwise.
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 12:21:44 1999
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To: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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At 11:46 AM 2/14/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote:
 
>Brett, your zealotry has reached unprecedented heights.  Please keep
>all harping about the evils of Linux limited to GPL/FSF/Stallman-
>related topics.  Those at least make sense and are within the realm
>of possibility.

Greg, your credulousness has reached unprecedented depths. Please
make sure you know of what you speak before you say anything.

>>From the very first paragraph of <http://hugin.imat.com/refund/>, the
>Bay Area refund organization:
>
>"If you are a user of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or another
>free/Open Source operating system, you may be entitled to a refund
>for unused Microsoft products bundled with your computer."

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Users of BSDI,
SCO, Solaris, BeOS, OS/2, and NetWare are likewise entitled to
refunds. Yet Rick Moen, a Linux zealot whose Web site is named
(characteristically) "linuxmafia", refuses to allow users of
these OSes to participate in his event. He has agreed to allow
users of the BSDs to participate, but then conveniently fails
to mention that they're involved when he speaks to the press.
Look at the press reports that have been generated from his
group's effort! Funny how they don't mention FreeBSD, or
any OS other than Linux, at all. Guess why.

>The Bay Area movement, and Rick Moen in particular, has done a 
>fantastic job of uniting different OS camps in this effort, achieving
>that goal without any sniping between camps (until you had to shoot
>off your mouth/fingers).

Nonsense. Rick has alienated users of commercial alternative OSes
by specifically stating, on their Web site, that they are not
welcome to participate but instead are invited to mount "separate"
efforts. In a message on the Appraising Microsoft mailing list,
Rick wrote:

|We're not "dividing people":  We're just organising open-source OS
|users who wish to return their unused, unwanted, bundled Microsoft
|software covered by an appropriate EULA.  If you don't like that for 
|any reason, that's fine, too:  Feel free to run your own effort in 
|your own way.

In short, "We're not dividing people, but you are not
welcome because you don't run one of the OSes we've deemed
acceptable."

I tried to get a group of NetWare admins to come and participate,
but when the first few I spoke to saw Rick's Web page, and saw
the exclusionary language, they declined.

>Just admit that, for this one day, all Open
>Source (and even all non-Microsoft) OSes have a common enemy.  

I will, but Rick won't. And you can bet that, when the press comes
to call, he'll promote this as a Linux-only effort, making the BAFUG
members and organizers feel foolish for lending their support. But
if they're going to go, the BAFUG folks had darn well better make
themselves noticed, buttonhole reporters, and make a REDOUBLED
effort to make sure that this event isn't perceived as Linux-only.
Because that's Rick's goal, denials to the contrary.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 12:23:48 1999
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I will not be a bad idea if FreeBSD folks decide to show which I doubt
for they love to hang out on the FreeBSD mailing lists to indeed
wear a FreeBSD T-Shirt --- if you have one of course 8)

	Have Fun,
	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 12:30:41 1999
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        Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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At 12:22 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
 
>I will not be a bad idea if FreeBSD folks decide to show which I doubt
>for they love to hang out on the FreeBSD mailing lists to indeed
>wear a FreeBSD T-Shirt --- if you have one of course 8)

I think that's a great idea. Are FreeBSD buttons available? (If not,
it should be easy to take some readily available artwork and make some.)

But it's still important to talk directly to the press. Many of the
press people there (especially those who are NOT from computer trade
pubs) won't know that a picture of Chuck The Besneakered Daemon represents
something other than Linux. (They may even mistakenly believe that
it represents Microsoft and/or Bill Gates.) They'd better make the
point that FreeBSD is the "other, better free UNIX." Or, again, they'll
be seen as supporting Linux and will have been played for fools.

--Brett Glass

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 12:55:18 1999
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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> At 12:22 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>  
> >I will not be a bad idea if FreeBSD folks decide to show which I doubt
> >for they love to hang out on the FreeBSD mailing lists to indeed
> >wear a FreeBSD T-Shirt --- if you have one of course 8)
> 
> I think that's a great idea. Are FreeBSD buttons available? (If not,
> it should be easy to take some readily available artwork and make some.)

Not yet.  I'm thinking I really ought to go, even though Vacaville is 
a damn long way to come from.  I'll go through the WC offices and grab 
some promo stuff (stickers are my favorite tool), but I don't think I 
could manage tshirts or hats at this point.  I'll see what I can do - I 
would hope that not too many prospective FreeBSD hat-orderes would mind 
that their hats had been preworn for an hour or two in a major protest.

> But it's still important to talk directly to the press. Many of the
> press people there (especially those who are NOT from computer trade
> pubs) won't know that a picture of Chuck The Besneakered Daemon represents
> something other than Linux. (They may even mistakenly believe that
> it represents Microsoft and/or Bill Gates.) They'd better make the
> point that FreeBSD is the "other, better free UNIX." Or, again, they'll
> be seen as supporting Linux and will have been played for fools.

Brett - will _you_ be there?  For all your irritation, you know how to
handle these people, as well as spot them.  Remember that most of us are
tech types; give us a break.

I'll be at the Oakland staging area I expect.  (Cursing that we don't 
have the Daemon Babe outfits yet...)

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 13:10:10 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:08:33 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 12:50 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>Brett - will _you_ be there?  

I'll be in Southern California. I was originally going to go to the
Bay Area. But when I saw the FAQ and my friends the NetWare admins
opted out (and also opted out of arranging to bring more NetWare
people), I decided to stay in LA, where I'll already be on a
consulting job. I'll have to fight traffic to get to one of
their sites; traffic there is NASTY.

>For all your irritation, you know how to
>handle these people, as well as spot them.  Remember that most of us are
>tech types; give us a break.

It's not hard. One of the best way is to have something WRITTEN
to hand them, so that when they gather their notes the information is
there. I'd recommend anything you have about FreeBSD, including the
booklet that comes inside the CD-ROM. Copies of positive reviews
will also get their attention, as will a simple "What is FreeBSD?"
FAQ. Remember, about 3/4ths of the COMPUTER trade press has never heard 
of FreeBSD, and I expect that the number of people in the MAINSTREAM press 
who have heard of it is so vanishingly small as to be negligible. Just 
getting a mention in the stories that run on the major newswires would be 
invaluable.

>I'll be at the Oakland staging area I expect.  (Cursing that we don't 
>have the Daemon Babe outfits yet...)

You're not talking about the blonde female daemon character that recently
popped up in Daemon News, are you? ;-)

--Brett


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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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Today Mike Smith wrote:

> Not yet.  I'm thinking I really ought to go, even though Vacaville is 
> a damn long way to come from.  I'll go through the WC offices and grab 
> some promo stuff (stickers are my favorite tool), but I don't think I 
> could manage tshirts or hats at this point.  I'll see what I can do - I 
> would hope that not too many prospective FreeBSD hat-orderes would mind 
> that their hats had been preworn for an hour or two in a major protest.

That should make them command a premium price.  Especially if
they get bloody in the fracas.  :)

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jack@germanium.xtalwind.net     Crystal Wind Communications, Inc.
          Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key.
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 13:22:44 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:08:33 MST."
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> It's not hard. One of the best way is to have something WRITTEN
> to hand them, so that when they gather their notes the information is
> there. I'd recommend anything you have about FreeBSD, including the
> booklet that comes inside the CD-ROM. Copies of positive reviews
> will also get their attention, as will a simple "What is FreeBSD?"
> FAQ. Remember, about 3/4ths of the COMPUTER trade press has never heard 
> of FreeBSD, and I expect that the number of people in the MAINSTREAM press 
> who have heard of it is so vanishingly small as to be negligible. Just 
> getting a mention in the stories that run on the major newswires would be 
> invaluable.

Ok.  I think we have some text we did for Comdex; I'll hit Jordan about 
it (he's just a shade busy right now...).

> >I'll be at the Oakland staging area I expect.  (Cursing that we don't 
> >have the Daemon Babe outfits yet...)
> 
> You're not talking about the blonde female daemon character that recently
> popped up in Daemon News, are you? ;-)

I'm talking about a friend or three that are basically waiting for me 
to find suitable red leather catsuits and accessories so they can 
wander around poking people with tridents.  Think Bannarama's "Venus" 
video if you're having trouble with the image...

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 13:34:51 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:33:20 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902142118.NAA05424@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 01:18 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>I'm talking about a friend or three that are basically waiting for me 
>to find suitable red leather catsuits and accessories so they can 
>wander around poking people with tridents.  Think Bannarama's "Venus" 
>video if you're having trouble with the image...

Actually, I'm thinking of the "Devil Girls" from Schmidt and Jones'
musical, "Celebration." 

If you want to obtain unusual leather goods in the Bay Area, try

http://www.stormyleather.com/

Friends who are into bondage and discipline (I'm not) say that 
this is THE place to go in the Bay Area for such things.

However, I'd think that red leotards and tights would be just as
effective and more comfortable (leather is sweaty). They're also
MUCH more  available if you're seeking to outfit a few she-daemons 
on short notice. There must be approximately one zillion dancewear
stores in the Bay Area.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 13:57:26 1999
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 11:59:58AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
>  
> >*NOTE* This has been moved to chat.
> >
> >BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
> >been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
> >off. 
> 
> And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
> that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
> press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they 
> intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for 
> patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
> the event uses Linux, and only Linux.

No, brett this is not the case. I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed took
great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux. They
emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD was
better in a good number of ways.

> It's also worth noting that the Bay Area organizers are telling users 
> of alternative operating systems that are NOT "open source" that they 
> must do "separate" protests. This includes BSDi, as well as Solaris,
> BeOs, OS/2, NetWare, etc. They are also making sure that the URL that's
> popularized as having information about the event is the URL of a
> site devoted to Linux. They're turning the event not into a genuine
> protest against Microsoft's tactics but rather into a publicity stunt
> for their one alternative.

Brett, I am confused how someone who is not here and does not know the
people involved can pretend to know what is going on. The above statement is
_NOT_ what is going on. Other OS people have been invited and a number of
them, such as Solaris and SCO will be there. The BeOs people have be asked
by Rick Moen a number of time to attend. They just can't seem to get their
act together. 

I have been running BAFUG for 2 years now (April in our 2nd anniversary) and
Nicole Harrington and I have been doing the Install-A-Thons for almost a
year now. I have never seen you at either the BAFUG meetings or the
Install-A-Thons. I have seen Duncan MacKinnon, Rick Moen and, Don Marti at
our meetings and Install-A-Thons. In fact, these hard-core Linux people and
others have shown up at most of our Install-A-Thons to help out with
promoting FreeBSD and installing FreeBSD. I can't count the number of times
I have heard Rick Moen say to people asking about Linux or FreeBSD that
FreeBSD has a better IP stack or VM system. He often tells people that if
they are running a web server that is getting 1000 hits a day that either
Linux or FreeBSD will do but if you are getting 1,000,000 hits a day you
had better be running FreeBSD, that Linux will just not hold up to that
kind of traffic.

The truth of the matter is that here in the Bay Area the Linux and FreeBSD
camps work together based on the theory that "The enemy of my enemy is my
friend". We play very well together. Both camps are mature enough to
acknowledge the strengths of the other OS and weakness of their own
OS. You, on the other hand, are an ideologue and a zealot. Something that
most people including myself do not like. You are giving FreeBSD a bad
name. If you wish to be an ideologue, fine, just do it some where else.

I have not seen you at any of the meetings and have never shown up to work
the Install-A-Thons. The only thing you have contributed to the Refund Day
effort is to piss and moan about how the evil Linux people are taking
over. To be very blunt, I am running this show and you don't have a say in
this.  Let me ask you, are you running a users group in your area? Are you
running Install-A-Thons? What are you doing to promote FreeBSD beside
pissing and moaning? All you are managing to do is to get youself enshrined
in peoples kill filters. 

Brett, If you don't have something positive to contribute please have the
good grace to bugger off.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:02:48 1999
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        Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
From: Drew Baxter <netmonger@genesis.ispace.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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References: <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org>
 <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com>
 <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com>
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I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
a holiday.. :)

At 04:57 PM 2/14/99 , Josef Grosch wrote:
>On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 11:59:58AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
>> At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
>>  
>> >*NOTE* This has been moved to chat.
>> >
>> >BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
>> >been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
>> >off. 
>> 
>> And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
>> that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
>> press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they 
>> intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for 
>> patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
>> the event uses Linux, and only Linux.
>
>No, brett this is not the case. I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
>News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed took
>great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux. They
>emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD was
>better in a good number of ways.
>
>> It's also worth noting that the Bay Area organizers are telling users 
>> of alternative operating systems that are NOT "open source" that they 
>> must do "separate" protests. This includes BSDi, as well as Solaris,
>> BeOs, OS/2, NetWare, etc. They are also making sure that the URL that's
>> popularized as having information about the event is the URL of a
>> site devoted to Linux. They're turning the event not into a genuine
>> protest against Microsoft's tactics but rather into a publicity stunt
>> for their one alternative.
>
>Brett, I am confused how someone who is not here and does not know the
>people involved can pretend to know what is going on. The above statement is
>_NOT_ what is going on. Other OS people have been invited and a number of
>them, such as Solaris and SCO will be there. The BeOs people have be asked
>by Rick Moen a number of time to attend. They just can't seem to get their
>act together. 
>
>I have been running BAFUG for 2 years now (April in our 2nd anniversary) and
>Nicole Harrington and I have been doing the Install-A-Thons for almost a
>year now. I have never seen you at either the BAFUG meetings or the
>Install-A-Thons. I have seen Duncan MacKinnon, Rick Moen and, Don Marti at
>our meetings and Install-A-Thons. In fact, these hard-core Linux people and
>others have shown up at most of our Install-A-Thons to help out with
>promoting FreeBSD and installing FreeBSD. I can't count the number of times
>I have heard Rick Moen say to people asking about Linux or FreeBSD that
>FreeBSD has a better IP stack or VM system. He often tells people that if
>they are running a web server that is getting 1000 hits a day that either
>Linux or FreeBSD will do but if you are getting 1,000,000 hits a day you
>had better be running FreeBSD, that Linux will just not hold up to that
>kind of traffic.
>
>The truth of the matter is that here in the Bay Area the Linux and FreeBSD
>camps work together based on the theory that "The enemy of my enemy is my
>friend". We play very well together. Both camps are mature enough to
>acknowledge the strengths of the other OS and weakness of their own
>OS. You, on the other hand, are an ideologue and a zealot. Something that
>most people including myself do not like. You are giving FreeBSD a bad
>name. If you wish to be an ideologue, fine, just do it some where else.
>
>I have not seen you at any of the meetings and have never shown up to work
>the Install-A-Thons. The only thing you have contributed to the Refund Day
>effort is to piss and moan about how the evil Linux people are taking
>over. To be very blunt, I am running this show and you don't have a say in
>this.  Let me ask you, are you running a users group in your area? Are you
>running Install-A-Thons? What are you doing to promote FreeBSD beside
>pissing and moaning? All you are managing to do is to get youself enshrined
>in peoples kill filters. 
>
>Brett, If you don't have something positive to contribute please have the
>good grace to bugger off.

---
Drew "Droobie" Baxter
Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM)
OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA
http://www.droo.orland.me.us

PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:04:57 1999
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        Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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References: <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <19990214135704.A13436@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214170107.03c0c730@genesis.ispace.com>
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> a holiday.. :)

We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:11:34 1999
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At 05:04 PM 2/14/99 , Josef Grosch wrote:
>We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
>be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
>the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?

I'm 17, it's likely I've been exposed to different things than my peers,
but I can't say that I have heard of that off the top of my head :-)

Maybe I'll jump into IMDB later and go check it out.

I take it noone wants to get s giant window sticker and put it in the
Microsoft lobby window? *snicker*



---
Drew "Droobie" Baxter
Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM)
OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA
http://www.droo.orland.me.us

PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:13:27 1999
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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> On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> > a holiday.. :)
> 
> We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?

Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
deal with something so flimsy as "doors".

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:21:57 1999
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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At 05:09 PM 2/14/99 , Mike Smith wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
>> > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
>> > a holiday.. :)
>> 
>> We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
>> be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
>> the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
>
>Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
>vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
>deal with something so flimsy as "doors".

Now we're not allowed to talk about potentially illegal acts in the
listservs and all.  I recommend a disclaimer like: While I may think this
is a good idea, I will not be held responsible should someone attach their
pickup truck to the front doors of Microsoft and remove them from the
hinges.  I will however not guarantee that I will shout and cheer should
such an occurance exist.

Wear it on the back of your name tag proudly.


---
Drew "Droobie" Baxter
Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM)
OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA
http://www.droo.orland.me.us

PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:23:44 1999
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 01:21:28PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 11:46 AM 2/14/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote:
>  
> >From the very first paragraph of <http://hugin.imat.com/refund/>, the
> >Bay Area refund organization:
> >
> >"If you are a user of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or another
> >free/Open Source operating system, you may be entitled to a refund
> >for unused Microsoft products bundled with your computer."
> 
> This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Users of BSDI,
> SCO, Solaris, BeOS, OS/2, and NetWare are likewise entitled to
> refunds. Yet Rick Moen, a Linux zealot whose Web site is named
> (characteristically) "linuxmafia", refuses to allow users of
> these OSes to participate in his event. He has agreed to allow
> users of the BSDs to participate, but then conveniently fails
> to mention that they're involved when he speaks to the press.

Rick has been very good about mentioning this as an Open Source
event, and not a Linux or OpenBSD or any other OS event.  If the
media has Linux on the brain and can't seem to report on anything
else, that isn't Rick's fault.  I have been physically present on
several occasions when he has been speaking about Refund Day, and
he has been fair and very non-partisan on both of those occasions.

> >The Bay Area movement, and Rick Moen in particular, has done a 
> >fantastic job of uniting different OS camps in this effort, achieving
> >that goal without any sniping between camps (until you had to shoot
> >off your mouth/fingers).
> 
> Nonsense. Rick has alienated users of commercial alternative OSes
> by specifically stating, on their Web site, that they are not
> welcome to participate but instead are invited to mount "separate"
> efforts. In a message on the Appraising Microsoft mailing list,
> Rick wrote:
>
> |We're not "dividing people":  We're just organising open-source OS
> |users who wish to return their unused, unwanted, bundled Microsoft
> |software covered by an appropriate EULA.  If you don't like that for 
> |any reason, that's fine, too:  Feel free to run your own effort in 
> |your own way.
>
> In short, "We're not dividing people, but you are not
> welcome because you don't run one of the OSes we've deemed
> acceptable."

Brett, this is ridiculous.  He has every right to limit this movement
to open-source OSes if he wants to.  As he says, if you don't like it,
go ahead and organize your own refund effort.  I suppose you would 
also like it if Daemon News started reporting Linux and Microsoft
programs/achievements, to somehow prove that we "deem them acceptable"?  

> >Just admit that, for this one day, all Open
> >Source (and even all non-Microsoft) OSes have a common enemy.  
> 
> I will, but Rick won't. And you can bet that, when the press comes
> to call, he'll promote this as a Linux-only effort, making the BAFUG
> members and organizers feel foolish for lending their support. But
[...]
> Because that's Rick's goal, denials to the contrary.

When you prove yourself as adept a mind-reader as you claim, I will
begin to believe your largely-unfounded statements.  Until then, Rick,
BAFUG, and the Linux Mafia will have an enjoyable Windows Refund Day
and hopefully get some money back from Microsoft.  

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                  "I think not," said Descartes...
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com            and promptly disappeared.
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/     
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052      

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:25:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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At 01:57 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
 
>No, brett this is not the case. I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
>News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed took
>great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux. They
>emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD was
>better in a good number of ways.

I hope that this is the case. It doesn't seem to be the case with the
group that's organizing the Bay Area event, though.

>The BeOs people have be asked
>by Rick Moen a number of time to attend. They just can't seem to get their
>act together. 

They shouldn't need to get a separate "act" together. This is an unnecessary
hurdle which Rick is imposing -- apparently in an attempt to get them to
bugger off.

>I have been running BAFUG for 2 years now (April in our 2nd anniversary) and
>Nicole Harrington and I have been doing the Install-A-Thons for almost a
>year now. I have never seen you at either the BAFUG meetings or the
>Install-A-Thons. 

That's because I jet in and out of the Bay Area on business (I live in 
Wyoming). Since I found out you existed (about 2 months ago), I haven't
had an opportunity to attend any of our events. 

>The truth of the matter is that here in the Bay Area the Linux and FreeBSD
>camps work together based on the theory that "The enemy of my enemy is my
>friend". 

It sure doesn't appear that way. I've been at a number of Bay Area
events at which the Linuxoids have bashed the BSDs at great length.

>You, on the other hand, are an ideologue and a zealot. 

Nope, you might say I'm an ANTI-ideologue and an ANTI-zealot. I see
Linux zealots trashing the BSDs and pushing the GPL -- which is 
destructive, anti-business, and anti-choice -- at the expense of 
those of us who'd like to have a choice. I have therefore spoken out 
about the problem.

>Let me ask you, are you running a users group in your area? Are you
>running Install-A-Thons? 

Yes and yes.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:31:21 1999
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At 02:23 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote:

>Brett, this is ridiculous.  He has every right to limit this movement
>to open-source OSes if he wants to.  As he says, if you don't like it,
>go ahead and organize your own refund effort.  I suppose you would 
>also like it if Daemon News started reporting Linux and Microsoft
>programs/achievements, to somehow prove that we "deem them acceptable"?  

I'd say that this situation is rather different. He is specifically
excluding people with an interest in the issue at hand because
he doesn't like to OSes they run.

>> >Just admit that, for this one day, all Open
>> >Source (and even all non-Microsoft) OSes have a common enemy.  
>> 
>> I will, but Rick won't. And you can bet that, when the press comes
>> to call, he'll promote this as a Linux-only effort, making the BAFUG
>> members and organizers feel foolish for lending their support. But
>[...]
>> Because that's Rick's goal, denials to the contrary.
>
>When you prove yourself as adept a mind-reader as you claim, I will
>begin to believe your largely-unfounded statements.  

Watch what he does tomorrow.

--Brett


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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 02:09:00PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> > > a holiday.. :)
> > 
> > We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> 
> Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
> vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
> deal with something so flimsy as "doors".

I assume that was a demonstration of your wonderful dry humor. Being an 4th
generation New Yorker it's a bit too subtle for me ;-)

Please keep in mind people that this will not be a storming of the
Bastille, gratifying as it might be. We should be respectful of their
property. We should be firm yet polite when we ask for our money back.


Josef 

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:41:46 1999
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Drew Baxter <netmonger@genesis.ispace.com>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
        Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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References: <4.1.19990214170107.03c0c730@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <19990214135704.A13436@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214170107.03c0c730@genesis.ispace.com> <19990214140428.B13436@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214170927.03b5c3a0@genesis.ispace.com>
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:10:43PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> At 05:04 PM 2/14/99 , Josef Grosch wrote:
> >We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> >be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> >the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> 
> I'm 17, it's likely I've been exposed to different things than my peers,
> but I can't say that I have heard of that off the top of my head :-)
> 
> Maybe I'll jump into IMDB later and go check it out.

A highly recommended documentary about the author and general gadfly Michael
Moore trying to interview General Motors chairman of the board Roger Moore
about why GM closed the Flint, Michigan plant and threw thousands of
people out of work. Roger Moore spent the entire movie dodging Michael
Moore and came off looking like he and GM had something to hide. It was a
very big black mark against GM. The film is out on video and Blockbuster
does carry it.


Josef 

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:45:43 1999
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Just a small aside, but as I'm working here on a document on 
Microsoft Word (yeah I know it should be Applixware or something on a 
FreeBSD box - so sue me) and a small problem occurred which brought 
to mind the recent posting of the Bill Gates interview in which he 
asserts that Microsoft Software has no bugs.

Perhaps Mr Gates could kindly explain to me where my capital W's have 
gone. Possibly they're sulking in a corner, upset at my rapid touch 
typing.  I'm now no longer sure how my client will react to my 
"ebsite" proposal.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled BSD vs Linux flamefest.

						-- C.
						("Reboot: it's not just a process, it's a
						complete Customer Support Solution![tm]")
-- 
Craig Harding         Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd
     "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 14:47:14 1999
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To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:32:06 PST."
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> On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 02:09:00PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > > On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > > > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> > > > a holiday.. :)
> > > 
> > > We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > > be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > > the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> > 
> > Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
> > vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
> > deal with something so flimsy as "doors".
> 
> I assume that was a demonstration of your wonderful dry humor. Being an 4th
> generation New Yorker it's a bit too subtle for me ;-)

Sorry.  I was assuming that your movie reference was a subtle way of 
saying "not being there would be a bad idea for them".  I was just 
putting a different angle on it.

> Please keep in mind people that this will not be a storming of the
> Bastille, gratifying as it might be. We should be respectful of their
> property. We should be firm yet polite when we ask for our money back.

Indeed.  However it would be silly for them to assume that we will be 
so nice.  I'm not expecting riot foam, but I wouldn't be surprised if 
they're prepared to get heavy.  I think they have more class than to 
deliberately escalate things though. *shrug*  We shall see what we see.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 15:04:54 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:04:34 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 02:42:39PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 02:09:00PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:01:38PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > > > > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> > > > > a holiday.. :)
> > > > 
> > > > We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > > > be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > > > the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> > > 
> > > Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
> > > vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
> > > deal with something so flimsy as "doors".
> > 
> > I assume that was a demonstration of your wonderful dry humor. Being an 4th
> > generation New Yorker it's a bit too subtle for me ;-)
> 
> Sorry.  I was assuming that your movie reference was a subtle way of 
> saying "not being there would be a bad idea for them".  I was just 
> putting a different angle on it.

Yes, that was exctacly what I had in mind. Michael Moore is one of my heros
and that movie had a hugh impact on me when I first say it.

> > Please keep in mind people that this will not be a storming of the
> > Bastille, gratifying as it might be. We should be respectful of their
> > property. We should be firm yet polite when we ask for our money back.
> 
> Indeed.  However it would be silly for them to assume that we will be 
> so nice.  I'm not expecting riot foam, but I wouldn't be surprised if 
> they're prepared to get heavy.  I think they have more class than to 
> deliberately escalate things though. *shrug*  We shall see what we see.

I assume that they will have the "rent-a-cops" all ready to go if it does
go badly. I also assume that they are planning for the worst. Remember that
the media will be there so if things do get ugly we, the OSS people, will
look bad. This is why I urge that we be polite yet firm. Peaceful,
non-violent, non-cooperation is always the best and most powerful tool in
these situations. I, personally, will have nothing to do with the
destruction of property or any criminal acts. I suspect that vast majority
of people attending tomorrows event are of a like mind.

If, G*D forbid it, things do start getting ugly our best tactic will be to
just walk away. We want nothing to do with trouble.

Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 15:25:52 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:16:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: New York Users Group (FUNY?) (fwd)
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don;t know if this ever got posted to -announce, so I'll try again. -Pat


___________________________________________________________________________

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:28:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: freebsd-announce@freebsd.org
Subject: New York Users Group (FUNY?)

There will be a steering/planning committee of the New York City FreeBSD
Users Group or FreeBSD USers of New York or whatever ;) at the Bombay
Palace restaurant between 5th and 6th on 52nd street in New York City on
February 26, 1999 (thats next Friday). Anyone with an interest in a users
group and the direction we should be taking in the NY metro area is
invited to attend. Any requests for info should be directed towards me
(lynch@rush.net). This includes directions, transportation questions, etc.

-Pat Lynch

___________________________________________________________________________

Pat Lynch						lynch@rush.net
Systems Administrator					Rush Networking

Remark made by Bertrand Meyer (inventor of the Eiffel language) at a
panel discussion at OOPSLA '89:

        "COBOL programmers are destined to code COBOL for the
         rest of their lives, and thereafter."

___________________________________________________________________________




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 15:27:21 1999
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From: Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.nws.net>
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
In-Reply-To: <19990214144126.F13436@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "Feb 14, 1999  2:41:26 pm"
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:23:52 -0500 (EST)
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Someone want to see if Bill Gates can install Win95 with networking.
I remember that one time a Ford exec was the only one who took the challenge
of changing his own oil in a pickup.

Bill

> On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:10:43PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > At 05:04 PM 2/14/99 , Josef Grosch wrote:
> > >We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > >be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > >the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> > 
> > I'm 17, it's likely I've been exposed to different things than my peers,
> > but I can't say that I have heard of that off the top of my head :-)
> > 
> > Maybe I'll jump into IMDB later and go check it out.
> 
> A highly recommended documentary about the author and general gadfly Michael
> Moore trying to interview General Motors chairman of the board Roger Moore
> about why GM closed the Flint, Michigan plant and threw thousands of
> people out of work. Roger Moore spent the entire movie dodging Michael
> Moore and came off looking like he and GM had something to hide. It was a
> very big black mark against GM. The film is out on video and Blockbuster
> does carry it.
> 
> 
> Josef 
> 
> -- 
> Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
> jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 
> 

---
  Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
  villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
  bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 15:48:02 1999
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Actually, the challenge was to see if any CEO's knew how to use their own
products. When asked, an IBM exec could not format a floppy ( or didn't
care). Ironically, the only one to accept the challenge was a GM exec and
he changed the oil in his car. Do you think Bill cares if he can install his
own product or not? That's what VP's are for.....

On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Bill Pechter wrote:

> Someone want to see if Bill Gates can install Win95 with networking.
> I remember that one time a Ford exec was the only one who took the challenge
> of changing his own oil in a pickup.
> 
> Bill
> 
> > On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 05:10:43PM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote:
> > > At 05:04 PM 2/14/99 , Josef Grosch wrote:
> > > >We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > > >be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > > >the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> > > 
> > > I'm 17, it's likely I've been exposed to different things than my peers,
> > > but I can't say that I have heard of that off the top of my head :-)
> > > 
> > > Maybe I'll jump into IMDB later and go check it out.
> > 
> > A highly recommended documentary about the author and general gadfly Michael
> > Moore trying to interview General Motors chairman of the board Roger Moore
> > about why GM closed the Flint, Michigan plant and threw thousands of
> > people out of work. Roger Moore spent the entire movie dodging Michael
> > Moore and came off looking like he and GM had something to hide. It was a
> > very big black mark against GM. The film is out on video and Blockbuster
> > does carry it.
> > 
> > 
> > Josef 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
> > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> > 
> > 
> 
> ---
>   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
>   villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
>   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 17:31:52 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:01:41 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
        Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Brett Glass and reality (was: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics)
References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org>
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On Sunday, 14 February 1999 at 11:59:58 -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
>
>> *NOTE* This has been moved to chat.
>>
>> BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
>> been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
>> off.
>
> And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
> that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
> press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they
> intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for
> patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
> the event uses Linux, and only Linux.

Brett, others have shown the errors in your claims.  They're not minor
errors: they are *completely unrelated to the facts*.

I've long since stopped taking anything you say seriously, and I wish
you'd realise that you do not represent the opinions of the majority
of the FreeBSD community.  If you are going to get involved in this
business, I certainly hope that nobody associates you with FreeBSD.

And now would you kindly shut up?

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 17:36:53 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:36:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: FUNY (oops forgot the time)
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Thanks DES for pointing out I forgot the time :

 Meeting will start between 7:30 and 8:00 PM< with formalities to start
 around 8:30 I think (gives us time to socialize and wait for stragglers
=)
 
 -Pat


___________________________________________________________________________

Pat Lynch						lynch@rush.net
Systems Administrator					Rush Networking

Remark made by Bertrand Meyer (inventor of the Eiffel language) at a
panel discussion at OOPSLA '89:

        "COBOL programmers are destined to code COBOL for the
         rest of their lives, and thereafter."

___________________________________________________________________________


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 18:11:58 1999
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On the contrary , we need more people like Brett Glass.

He is trying to "rally the troops" if you can't contribute in a 
positive fashion stay out of it.

	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 18:45:36 1999
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Josef Grosch wrote:

> > > [..."Roger & Me"...]
> > 
> > Maybe I'll jump into IMDB later and go check it out.
> 
> A highly recommended documentary about the author and general gadfly
> Michael Moore trying to interview General Motors chairman of the
> board Roger Moore about why GM closed the Flint, Michigan plant and
> threw thousands of people out of work. Roger Moore spent the entire
> movie dodging Michael Moore and came off looking like he and GM had
> something to hide. It was a very big black mark against GM. The film
> is out on video and Blockbuster does carry it.

I'll second Josef's comments about Roger & Me. It's a serious film, 
but also absolutely hilarious. A superb example of guerilla 
documentary. I wish I had the time to make things like this.

						-- C.

-- 
Craig Harding         Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd
     "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 19:18:02 1999
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On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> On the contrary , we need more people like Brett Glass.
> 
> He is trying to "rally the troops" if you can't contribute in a 
> positive fashion stay out of it.

FreeBSD doesn't need zealots any more than Linux needs them.  Don't
confuse advocacy and zealotry.

Jason

Jason Evans <jasone@canonware.com>
http://www.canonware.com/~jasone
Home phone: (650) 856-8204
Work phone: (415) 808-8742
"I once knew a happy medium.  Her name was Zohar." - James Foster


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 19:30:57 1999
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At 07:06 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Jason Evans wrote:
 
>FreeBSD doesn't need zealots any more than Linux needs them.  Don't
>confuse advocacy and zealotry.

I agree. The Linux "faithful" are engaging in zealotry by refusing to 
allow users of commercial operating systems to participate
WITH them in the Windows Refund Day event. We should advocate
that people do the right thing instead.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 19:33:22 1999
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At 12:01 PM 2/15/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
 
>I've long since stopped taking anything you say seriously, 

You're welcome to do that -- at your own risk, of course.

>and I wish
>you'd realise that you do not represent the opinions of the majority
>of the FreeBSD community.  

I don't claim to speek for "the majority of the FreeBSD community,"
and neither should you. 

>And now would you kindly shut up?

I haven't asked YOU to shut up, Greg. I think it's rude of you
to ask me to do the same just because you happen to disagree
with me. I believe that time will bear out my conclusions
vis-a-vis the intentions of the Linux zealots and the effects of
the GPL. Until then, kindly show some respect for others' views.

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 20:02:35 1999
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Well okay,  if you don't  like Brett's advcocay or "zealotry" lets hear
your advocacy -- I am all ears !


By definition almost all freebsd hackers are FreeBSD zealots and yes
we do need people that are willing to "market" FreeBSD . 
I confess after so many years hacking, working and playing on FreeBSD
it is kind of hard to think of anything else 8)



	Amancio


	
> On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > On the contrary , we need more people like Brett Glass.
> > 
> > He is trying to "rally the troops" if you can't contribute in a 
> > positive fashion stay out of it.
> 
> FreeBSD doesn't need zealots any more than Linux needs them.  Don't
> confuse advocacy and zealotry.
> 
> Jason
> 
> Jason Evans <jasone@canonware.com>
> http://www.canonware.com/~jasone
> Home phone: (650) 856-8204
> Work phone: (415) 808-8742
> "I once knew a happy medium.  Her name was Zohar." - James Foster
> 



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 20:10:39 1999
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 08:28:05PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 07:06 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Jason Evans wrote:
>  
> >FreeBSD doesn't need zealots any more than Linux needs them.  Don't
> >confuse advocacy and zealotry.
> 
> I agree. The Linux "faithful" are engaging in zealotry by refusing to 
> allow users of commercial operating systems to participate
> WITH them in the Windows Refund Day event. We should advocate
> that people do the right thing instead.

I don't know about other Linux people but here in the Bay Area this is
_NOT_ the case. I know for a fact that the SCO, Solaris, OS/2, and BeOs
people have been invited to participate. They have all been asked several
times. The SCO and Solaris people have told us that they will be there. I
have no idea what happened with the OS/2 people but the BeOs people just
can't seem to muster up a few people to show up.

Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 20:25:38 1999
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To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:57 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
 
>I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
>News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed took
>great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux. They
>emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD was
>better in a good number of ways.

Are you sure they really did that? If so, how come the only Mercury News
article on the subject (other than a tiny passing reference in Dan
Gillmor's column), at

http://www.sjmercury.com/breaking/docs/026444.htm

only alludes to operating systems other than Linux in a vague way
and mentions NO other by name?

I think that the event is being cast as Linux-only by the promoters,
and that you're being used. I really mean it.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 21:14:28 1999
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From: "Freddie Cash" <fcash@bigfoot.com>
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:13:59 -0800
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> >I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
> >News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed
> >took great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux.
> >They emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD
> >was better in a good number of ways.

> Are you sure they really did that? If so, how come the only Mercury News
> article on the subject (other than a tiny passing reference in Dan
> Gillmor's column)
> only alludes to operating systems other than Linux in a vague way
> and mentions NO other by name?

> I think that the event is being cast as Linux-only by the promoters,
> and that you're being used. I really mean it.

That may be true of the SJ MN, but CNet Radio mentions Linux, 
OS/2, Netware, "and other alternative OS".  Yes, the headline is 
"Linux Users Head for Microsoft", but the rest of the story deals 
with all non-MS OS's.

There is a definite Linux slant, but it is not the only OS mentioned.  
There's also a neat mention of the difficulty to buy a PC w/o 
Windows, due to MS-OEM contracts.

Freddie


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 21:18:40 1999
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:18:21 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 09:25:18PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 01:57 PM 2/14/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
>  
> >I was interviewed by the San Jose Mercury
> >News and the reporter told me that all the Linux people he interviewed took
> >great pains to point out that there were other OSS beside Linux. They
> >emphasized that Linux is equal to FreeBSD in most ways and FreeBSD was
> >better in a good number of ways.
> 
> Are you sure they really did that? If so, how come the only Mercury News
> article on the subject (other than a tiny passing reference in Dan
> Gillmor's column), at
> 
> http://www.sjmercury.com/breaking/docs/026444.htm
> 
> only alludes to operating systems other than Linux in a vague way
> and mentions NO other by name?
> 
> I think that the event is being cast as Linux-only by the promoters,
> and that you're being used. I really mean it.

First off, notice that the article came from USA Today. The Merc News picked
up that article for reprint, a common practice in the newspaper business. I
was interviewed by a reporter from the Merc News. Second, editors frequently
remove detail that you and I consider important but they consider confusing
to the average reader. Third, how much influence do you think the Linux
people have over the reporters and editors of the San Jose Mercury News and
USA Today ? Brett, you have been watching the X-Files way too much.

Either way I am really bored with this argument. You have your opinion and
thank you for being so generous with it but I do not agree. I will
continue to do what I consider best for FreeBSD regardless of what you have
to say. 


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 21:30:58 1999
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: announce@bafug.org
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: BAFUG participation in Bay Area Microsoft Refund Day
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                           -=> FINAL NOTICE <=-

On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can join with
other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of Win9x
and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City, for 
refund.  With television coverage and reporters from all over the
world.

(This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract.
See:  http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html)

The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same day)
in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and the 
Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity.  See:
http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html   (all articles, and timeline)

Main Windows Refund Day sites:
    * http://hugin.imat.com/refund/      <- Monitor this one for the Bay Area.
    * http://LinuxMall.com/refund/
    * http://zork.net/refund/
    * http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html
    * http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html
    * http://hugin.imat.com/refund/japan/
    * http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/
    * http://www.linux-center.org/detaxe/index.shtml
    * http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/

Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to 
assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday, 
when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City.

Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there.  The band 
"Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed 
to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

Is Microsoft just a tad nervous?  They might be, given that we
troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company 
PR events into open-source ones:  

    * http://www.svlug.org/events/tea-party-199811.shtml
    * http://hugin.imat.com/svlug/
    * http://www.penguincomputing.com/svlug-rally.html
    * http://hugin.imat.com/launch98/
    * http://www.svlug.org/events/launch98.shtml

We are also getting a large amount of press coverage. At last count we had
62 articles including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia, New
Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Copies of these articles can
be found at http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html
     
A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_
maybe some from Sun Microsystems.  And that's not to mention the
party in San Francisco, afterwards.

(IMPORTANT:  See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html
for full details on the following, including directions and maps.)

    ==> Mountain View: Meet Posse organizer Chris Di Bona outside VA
        Research, 1235 Pear Ave. #111. near N. Shoreline Blvd. Also, please
        notify Chris immediately that you will be coming, at
        mv@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)  

    ==> Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott McNeil at the passenger pickup
        zone at the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later than 10 AM. Also,
        please notify Scott immediately that you will be coming, at
        ebay@linuxmafia.com. Please include if you can offer or are in need
        of a ride! Please note that the BART parking lot is for BART
        patrons. There is nearby on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.)

    ==> San Francisco: Meet Posse organizer Rick Moen inside The CoffeeNet
        Internet cafe, 744 Harrison @ 3rd/4th Streets, no later than 10
        AM. Also, please notify Rick immediately that you will be coming,
        at sf@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)  

    ==> Santa Clara: Meet Posse organizer Ian Kluft outside the Hotel
        Marriott Santa Clara, 2700 Mission College Blvd @ Great America, at
        the "F7" parking post near the tennis courts. Also, please notify
        Ian immediately that you will be coming, at
        sc@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.)

Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember
afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco. 

Wear your BSD t-shirts!  Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon!  
Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast, 
in any event.

This notice is also available on the BAFUG web site at
http://www.bafug.org/RefundDay.html 
      


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:21:11 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150720.AAA10143@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:20:58 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 14, 99 11:59:58 am
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> >*NOTE* This has been moved to chat.
> >
> >BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has
> >been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this
> >off. 
> 
> And the Linux people are doing everything in their power to make sure
> that the public thinks EVERYONE there is a Linux user. Note that the
> press report you quoted mentions ONLY Linux! My belief is that they 
> intend to play the users of other operating systems who show up for 
> patsies -- use them to strengthen the impression that everyone at
> the event uses Linux, and only Linux.

So do what I'm going to do: show up in your FreeBSD T-shirt.  It
doesn't matter if you are actually there to get a refund or not;
there's no way to tell that from the other side of the camera.


> BAFUG should make DARN sure that the press knows it's there. Better
> bring BIG banners with "FreeBSD" and the daemon logo displayed
> prominently -- not to mention disks, buttons, and T-shirts, if possible. 

Tell Jordan.  He has that stuff for the trade shows.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:28:56 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150728.AAA10313@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:28:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990214142404.00b2c340@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 14, 99 02:33:20 pm
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> >I'm talking about a friend or three that are basically waiting for me 
> >to find suitable red leather catsuits and accessories so they can 
> >wander around poking people with tridents.  Think Bannarama's "Venus" 
> >video if you're having trouble with the image...
> 
> Actually, I'm thinking of the "Devil Girls" from Schmidt and Jones'
> musical, "Celebration." 

Think adult she-devil halloween costumes at an "All-A-Dollar" or a
"Pic-N-Save" type store, where they tend to shovel out off season
goods for very cheap.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:42:23 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150742.AAA10571@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:41:57 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990214135704.A13436@mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Feb 14, 99 01:57:04 pm
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> What are you doing to promote FreeBSD beside pissing and moaning? All
> you are managing to do is to get youself enshrined in peoples kill
> filters. 

Brett is a typical journalist.  The only difference is, he's *FreeBSD's*
journalist.

Brett has done many published articles about FreeBSD.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Brett has been a strong FreeBSD
evangelist, and while you may not agree with everything (or even
anything) that he says under the influence of evnagelical fervor,
FreeBSD needs evangelists.


> Brett, If you don't have something positive to contribute please have the
> good grace to bugger off.

I think if the only thing he has done in this thread is rile up
FreeBSD'ers, who were going to give the day a miss, into going and
"showing the colors", then he's done his evangelical best for FreeBSD.
Brett is contributing what he can.  Not everyone is a kernel hacker;
I think the KDE thread (on advocacy?  chat?) recognizes this fact.
To (probably mis-) quote SEF:

	The free software community has finally found a geek who
	thinks writing applications are cool.  God help us all.

Or to coin one from me:

	FreeBSD: Not just for kernel hackers any more

Or to coin another one:

	FreeBSD: Not just the power to serve

I personnally am very happy FreeBSD is starting to get people other
than kernel geeks (like me) involved.  Now if only we could find a
lot of people who thought writing articles, books, and documentation
was a cool thing to do on the weekend.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:44:05 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150743.AAA10647@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:43:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902142209.OAA05763@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Feb 14, 99 02:09:00 pm
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> > > I'm just kinda curious if Microsoft is closed tomorrow because tomorrow is
> > > a holiday.. :)
> > 
> > We have spoken to microsoft several times and they have said that they will
> > be open. Now, if that is just a ploy and they are closed then this is all
> > the better. Do you remember the movie "Roger and Me" ?
> 
> Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
> vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
> deal with something so flimsy as "doors".

I have it on good authority that Foster City's normal contingent
of three police officers on duty is going to be somewhat augmented.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:49:54 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150749.AAA10756@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:49:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990214150434.A15239@mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Feb 14, 99 03:04:34 pm
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> If, G*D forbid it, things do start getting ugly our best tactic will be to
> just walk away. We want nothing to do with trouble.

I can see the news report now, a camera panning over a group wearing
FreeBSD T-shirts, cue voice-over:

	"A group of Hells Angels stormed an office building in
	 Foster City, California today..."


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sun Feb 14 23:53:19 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150753.AAA10849@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:53:01 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Now we're not allowed to talk about potentially illegal acts in the
> listservs and all.  I recommend a disclaimer like: While I may think this
> is a good idea, I will not be held responsible should someone attach their
> pickup truck to the front doors of Microsoft and remove them from the
> hinges.  I will however not guarantee that I will shout and cheer should
> such an occurance exist.

What is that quote?  Ah, yes, here in my left frontal lobe...

	"I may not like what you have to say, but I will defend to
	 the death your right to die in a fire of suspicious origin."


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 00:15:20 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902150814.BAA11333@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Brett Glass and reality (was: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for  Linux tactics)
To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:14:53 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
        grog@lemis.com, kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990214200902.A16343@mooseriver.com> from "Josef Grosch" at Feb 14, 99 08:09:02 pm
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> > I agree. The Linux "faithful" are engaging in zealotry by refusing to 
> > allow users of commercial operating systems to participate
> > WITH them in the Windows Refund Day event. We should advocate
> > that people do the right thing instead.
> 
> I don't know about other Linux people but here in the Bay Area this is
> _NOT_ the case. I know for a fact that the SCO, Solaris, OS/2, and BeOs
> people have been invited to participate. They have all been asked several
> times. The SCO and Solaris people have told us that they will be there. I
> have no idea what happened with the OS/2 people but the BeOs people just
> can't seem to muster up a few people to show up.

You need to read the FAQ; Brett is right.  From:

http://hugin.imat.com/refund/faq/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: Are users of proprietary non-Microsoft OSes on Intel, such as BeOS,
   SolarisX86, SCO UnixWare, OS/2, QNX, and NeXTstep for Intel (to name
   a few) also welcome? 

A: This is an initiative of and by the open-source software community.
   We welcome separate efforts by users of proprietary OSes, who would
   certainly have an equally valid claim. If you hear of such an effort
   or want to start one, please contact arlo@linuxmafia.com, and we'll
   be glad to assist (e.g., share information and link to your Web site). 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently VA Research is making and distributing T-shirts for
coming to the refund day.  From the wording, I think they may
specifically be Linux T-shirts, and that you have to show up
at one of the car-pool points to get one (e.g., they may not
give them out at the site if you didn't come with them).  This
would definitely provide higher visibility by providing Linux
branded "uniforms".


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 00:25:03 1999
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Brett Glass and reality (was: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:14:53 GMT."
             <199902150814.BAA11333@usr08.primenet.com> 
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> Apparently VA Research is making and distributing T-shirts for
> coming to the refund day.  From the wording, I think they may
> specifically be Linux T-shirts, and that you have to show up
> at one of the car-pool points to get one (e.g., they may not
> give them out at the site if you didn't come with them).  This
> would definitely provide higher visibility by providing Linux
> branded "uniforms".

I can't imagine that too many of the FreeBSD folks showing up won't 
have FreeBSD tshirts.  So wear them!

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 03:11:20 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:19:39 +0100
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Subject: sybase & database 
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I have seen there is a free implementation of sybase for Linux
(http://www.sybase.com/adaptiveserver/linux/).
I am not really interested because I am happily using Postgresql , but
sometimes it's better to have several choices to choose from... Anyone have
experienced this one on a FreeBSD box ? And the Oracle 8 ? 

Thanks...



Best Regards,
Gianmarco Giovannelli ,  "Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco  
http://www2.masternet.it 




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Testing new mail configuration and patches on a live list on
hub.freebsd.org..

Yell (to me) if I've botched it..  Only freebsd-chat is affected.

Cheers,
-Peter



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15  8:51:41 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:33:11 -0700
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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At 07:28 AM 2/15/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
>Think adult she-devil halloween costumes at an "All-A-Dollar" or a
>"Pic-N-Save" type store, where they tend to shovel out off season
>goods for very cheap.

I don't know if they need to go THAT cheap. However, leather catsuits
of the type described in Mike's message typically start at $500 for
"basic black" and go 'way up for custom colors. That's a hefty
investment.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 10:12: 2 1999
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From: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Message-ID: <19990215101142.B96546@wopr.caltech.edu>
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 02:09:00PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:

> Given that this is California, there should be enough truck-like 
> vehicles involved that someone will have enough chain and traction to 
> deal with something so flimsy as "doors".

Of course they'll all be lowered so that they lose the transmission
on a speed bump, and the owners won't let the paint job get a
scratch.

At least in LA, where the concept of "truck" seems to be greatly
misunderstood.

-- 
Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com> * Stay close to the Vorlon.
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 10:16:43 1999
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References: <199902142209.OAA05763@dingo.cdrom.com>
 <19990214140428.B13436@mooseriver.com>
 <199902142209.OAA05763@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 10:11 AM 2/15/99 -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote:
 
>Of course they'll all be lowered so that they lose the transmission
>on a speed bump, and the owners won't let the paint job get a
>scratch.
>
>At least in LA, where the concept of "truck" seems to be greatly
>misunderstood.

Two trucks make a motorcycle, for sufficiently small values of
"truck."

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 11:13:54 1999
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From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kline@tera.com, brett@lariat.org,
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On 15-Feb-99 Terry Lambert wrote:

> I personnally am very happy FreeBSD is starting to get people other
> than kernel geeks (like me) involved.  Now if only we could find a
> lot of people who thought writing articles, books, and documentation
> was a cool thing to do on the weekend.

*Walks in*

Hey Terry, guess ye never visited the www.freebsdzine.org? The main
`leaders' of that site (which include at least: Jim Mock, Dan Langille,
Robert Garrett and myself) are very actively working on all sorts of
articles, just not for the ezine... Keep yer eyes open...

*Walks out*

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven        join #FreeBSD on Undernet
asmodai(at)wxs.nl          This is my Truth, tell me your's... 
Network/Security Specialist      <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
*BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 11:41:15 1999
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From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
        Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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On 15-Feb-99 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:
> Hey Terry, guess ye never visited the www.freebsdzine.org? The main
> `leaders' of that site (which include at least: Jim Mock, Dan Langille,
> Robert Garrett and myself) are very actively working on all sorts of
> articles, just not for the ezine... Keep yer eyes open...

*sigh*

Read: not just, _not_ just not.  =P

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven        join #FreeBSD on Undernet
asmodai(at)wxs.nl          This is my Truth, tell me your's... 
Network/Security Specialist      <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
*BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 12:18:47 1999
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Subject: Re: Brett Glass and reality (was: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for  Linux tactics)
In-Reply-To: <199902150814.BAA11333@usr08.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 15, 99 08:14:53 am"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:18:24 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com,
        hasty@rah.star-gate.com, grog@lemis.com, kline@tera.com,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Terry Lambert said:
> 
> You need to read the FAQ; Brett is right.  From:
> 
> http://hugin.imat.com/refund/faq/
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Q: Are users of proprietary non-Microsoft OSes on Intel, such as BeOS,
>    SolarisX86, SCO UnixWare, OS/2, QNX, and NeXTstep for Intel (to name
>    a few) also welcome? 
> 
> A: This is an initiative of and by the open-source software community.
>    We welcome separate efforts by users of proprietary OSes, who would
>    certainly have an equally valid claim. If you hear of such an effort
>    or want to start one, please contact arlo@linuxmafia.com, and we'll
>    be glad to assist (e.g., share information and link to your Web site). 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Apparently VA Research is making and distributing T-shirts for
> coming to the refund day.  From the wording, I think they may
> specifically be Linux T-shirts, and that you have to show up
> at one of the car-pool points to get one (e.g., they may not
> give them out at the site if you didn't come with them).  This
> would definitely provide higher visibility by providing Linux
> branded "uniforms".
> 
> 
The in-a-way *sad* thing is that the BSD people are held to a higher
standard...

I wonder if the BSD people are Republicans of the free software world,
and Linux people are the Democrats :-).  (Allusion to the very sorry
state of politics in the US -- extreme double standard.)  Whether or
not Brett is over-advocating, at least he has the commitment to do so.
Is he anywhere as "bad" as Stallman (regarding blind, religious and
judgemental advocacy), for example?  How negatively has he affected
the software industry?  Is it anywhere nearly as bad as most of the
truly religious advocates?  Can Brett's attitude really be resolved
to religion, or is it really concern over the distruction of the
financial motivations for creativity?  It is pretty obvious that
it is the latter, and not the former.

BSD people are not allowed to "lower" themselves to the advocacy level?
That is (in a way) sad, but also good (in a way.)

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 13:48: 8 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:47:48 -0800
From: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
To: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
        Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Message-ID: <19990215134748.A26542@athena.tera.com>
References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <19990214114602.P22179@orcrist.mediacity.com>
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On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 11:46:02AM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 14, 1999 at 11:59:58AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> > At 01:42 PM 2/13/99 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
> >  
		[[ hyperbolic harping ... ]]

> 
> Brett, your zealotry has reached unprecedented heights.  Please keep
> all harping about the evils of Linux limited to GPL/FSF/Stallman-
> related topics.  Those at least make sense and are within the realm
> of possibility.
> 
> >From the very first paragraph of <http://hugin.imat.com/refund/>, the
> Bay Area refund organization:
> 
> "If you are a user of Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or another
> free/Open Source operating system, you may be entitled to a refund
> for unused Microsoft products bundled with your computer."
> 
> The Bay Area movement, and Rick Moen in particular, has done a 
> fantastic job of uniting different OS camps in this effort, achieving
> that goal without any sniping between camps (until you had to shoot
> off your mouth/fingers).  Just admit that, for this one day, all Open
> Source (and even all non-Microsoft) OSes have a common enemy.  If you
> can't do that, then just shut up and let the rest of us try to get our
> money back.  You can resume your regular tirade on February 16th.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Greg
> -- 
> Gregory S. Sutter                 Bureaucrats cut red tape -- lengthwise.

		
		As much as I respect Brett Glass for his 
		pro-*BSD sentiments, you're right, Greg.

		It's exactly these kinds of fractious shoutings
		that keep the *BSD camps in the extreme minority.

		gary




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 14: 7: 3 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:06:49 -0800
From: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
To: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
Cc: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
        jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
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References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <19990214114602.P22179@orcrist.mediacity.com> <19990215134748.A26542@athena.tera.com>
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 01:47:48PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote:

> 		It's exactly these kinds of fractious shoutings
> 		that keep the *BSD camps in the extreme minority.

You're attributing our "market share" to people like Brett?  It seems
to me that both Microsoft and Linux have supporters who are both
more offensive and more ignorant, and they seem to be doing okay.

I think the segment of people who have never heard of FreeBSD is a
lot bigger than the segment of people whom Brett has offended.

I'm sure that the FreeBSD Project is not so fragile that it can be
destroyed by a single vocal supporter.

-- 
Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com> * UNIX is a lever for the intellect. -J.R. Mashey
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 14:24:36 1999
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Reply-To: "Jack Velte" <jackv@earthling.net>
From: "Jack Velte" <jackv@earthling.net>
Cc: <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: GNOME, the threat that Microsoft can't stop.
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:22:05 -0500
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http://www.feedmag.com/re/re173_master.html

An exclusive FEED interview with the man behind GNOME, the threat that
Microsoft can't stop.

Telecommutes don't get any bigger than this. The spearhead is a 26-year-old
system administrator in Mexico City who is struggling to finish up his
undergraduate degree in math. ("It's a problem," he says. "I just don't
enjoy math any more.") The guy responsible for the icons lives in Helsinki
and found out about the movement on Internet Relay Chat (IRC). The heart of
the desktop was coded by two Berkeley undergrads -- Class of '97 -- who
wrote a free version of Photoshop from scratch because they "wanted to make
a web page" -- it's now the graphics application for the system. And
somebody, somewhere, created in his or her free time "Wanda, the fish
applet" that runs on the bottom of the screen and tells the future.


Part of bottom navigation of Gnome, including Wanda the fortune-telling
fish.

No doubt that future is going to be damn interesting. All these people --
plus at least another 250 from around the planet -- are working on Gnome
1.0, a user-friendly, free operating system designed for you and me and
people like our parents. Gnome is part of Richard Stallman's GNU Project to
develop free software alternatives to proprietary code that dominates the
market. (Gnome stands for "GNU Network Object Model Environment.") Scheduled
for release in late February (don't tell anybody) after 14 months of heavy
development, Gnome is not intended to be another free software innovation
strictly for hardcore hackers. "This is aimed at regular users -- for home
users or kids or secretary-people," says Miguel de Icaza, the Gnome frontman
from Mexico City. "It's for people who are not trained to be programmers" --
namely, the millions stuck on Microsoft Windows or Macs or even OS/2 and not
happy about it.

It's an ambitious project, and one with an enormous amount of momentum.
Already Gnome has a word processor ("Go"), a spreadsheet ("Gnumeric"), a
calendar ("Gnomecal"), the aforementioned Photoshop clone ("Gimp"), even a
Tetris rip-off in Polish ("Gnometris"). Red Hat Labs, the research and
development facility at one of the best-known free software distributors, is
behind it. The lab's director Dr. Mike has dedicated a team of developers to
working on it: "My primary satisfaction is knowing that Gnome will allow
non-technical users to enjoy the same powerful OS that I have for so long."

In this interview, Gnome creator Miguel de Icaza talks about the project,
the dangers of "overestimating Microsoft," and the challenge of getting an
open source project off the ground.

-- Austin Bunn




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 14:45:20 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:45:12 -0800
From: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>
To: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
Cc: Gary Kline <kline@tera.com>, Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>,
        Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics
Message-ID: <19990215144512.B26542@athena.tera.com>
References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> <4.1.19990214114417.03fa0480@mail.lariat.org> <19990214114602.P22179@orcrist.mediacity.com> <19990215134748.A26542@athena.tera.com> <19990215140648.A99426@wopr.caltech.edu>
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 02:06:49PM -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 01:47:48PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote:
> 
> > 		It's exactly these kinds of fractious shoutings
> > 		that keep the *BSD camps in the extreme minority.
> 
> You're attributing our "market share" to people like Brett?  It seems
> to me that both Microsoft and Linux have supporters who are both
> more offensive and more ignorant, and they seem to be doing okay.
> 
> I think the segment of people who have never heard of FreeBSD is a
> lot bigger than the segment of people whom Brett has offended.
> 
> I'm sure that the FreeBSD Project is not so fragile that it can be
> destroyed by a single vocal supporter.
> 


	I think we've got to have more unity--more cooperation--
	among the 3 flavors of BSD before the great majority of
	BSD users will be other than geeks and nerds.  

	I also believe that Linux is billions of times better than
	DOS/Lose, and that FBSD is better than Linux.  But my 
	personal biases are beside the point.  

	At issue is a display of unity in the Free-unix|open-source
	movement against M$.   People need to chill...

	gary


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 15:14:36 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:14:38 -0800
From: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, announce@bafug.org
Subject: Windows Refund Day: Bay Area Report
Message-ID: <19990215151438.A19842@orcrist.mediacity.com>
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FreeBSD folk,

This report is being written from the CoffeeNet, where we've all met
after the event in Foster City.  We didn't exactly "storm the Gates",
but both the Linux and FreeBSD communities turned out in force, 
accompanied by a couple of others (I saw a Sun and an SCO person).  
We got to the parking garage where the Microsoft "welcome table" was 
set up.  There were Microsoft-sponsored refreshments and a lot of 
press, including many major stations.

A few of us grabbed some press members with cameras and headed for
the main entrance.  We arrived and were greeted by a friendly 
Microsoft security guard, who told us that we were not allowed to go
up to the ninth floor (where the Microsoft offices are).  When the
press members began questioning her, she called another person, who
apparently called security, because they showed up long before any
Microsoft representative would talk to us. 

I was interviewed by several press members at this time, right from
the lobby of the Microsoft office.  Several others had arrived by this
time and we were becoming more forceful in our attempts to get to the
Microsoft Office.  People began getting on the elevators, only to find
that they had been locked down so that nobody could visit the ninth
floor.  those going to the tenth and using the stairs found that the
stair doors were locked from the inside as well, so nobody actually got
into the office.  (Later, they locked the elevators down completely.)

After twenty minutes or so of increased numbers of refund attempters, a
person claiming to be a Microsoft representative appeared.  While
several of us attempted to get some straight answers out of him, he
would only give us the typical Microsoft doubletalk.  He handed out a
sheet explaining Microsoft's statement on the refund policy[1] and would
only echo what was contained on that paper.  Although several tried, we
were unable to get him to admit even that this was Microsoft policy and
not just a random statement.  

Around this time, the rest of the group arrived and the press began
seriously interviewing everyone.  I saw Eric Raymond and many others
being questioned repeatedly on the purpose of the gathering and whether
Microsoft had issued a statement.  There was a _lot_ of mass media
presence at the event, and Microsoft's attempts to stonewall us at the
door didn't impress anyone.  I look forward to the news reports tonight
and tomorrow.

Toward the end, we all just stood in the courtyard and kibitzed before
finally breaking up around 1:45 to return to our regularly scheduled
activities (and a fine gathering at the CoffeeNet).  Gregory Sutter,
reporting for OSS News[2], signing off.

[1] For the full document, see <http://www.bafug.org/ms-letter.html>
after 20:00 PST today.

[2] and Daemon News.

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                     My reality check just bounced.
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 15:52:59 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
To: dyson@iquest.net
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:52:45 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jgrosch@mooseriver.com, brett@lariat.org,
        jasone@canonware.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, grog@lemis.com,
        kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902152018.PAA01687@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 15, 99 03:18:24 pm
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Windows Refund Day


Well, a number of FreeBSD people actually showed up to "show the flag"
on "Windows Refund Day".

Not knowing the target time and being a Foster City resident, rather
than going to Oakland and carpooling back to Foster City, I showed up
a little before 11am.

The signs all said "Microsoft Event", and pointed around back to
the parking garage, where Microsoft had deflected the event to the
top floor of the parking garage.

The Foster City Police Department was out in record numbers.  I
counted five officers, which means that they had the normal
contingent, plus two officers on overtime.  There were a number
of private security officers there, as well, apparently employees
of the property management company that owns the building where
the Microsoft sales office is enshrined.

Being fully an hour early, there were few advocates, a few officers,
a grundle of reporters (I'd estimate around 50 of them) and the
members of the band "Severe Tire Damage", attempting to gain entry
to the garage to set up their equipment.

Severe Tire Damage was denied on the basis of noise ordinances;
the parking garage was perhaps as mush as 10 minutes walk from the
Leo J. Ryan Park in Foster City, where there are weekly free
concerts Friday evening throughout the summer.

In addition to the reporters, there was a professionally done silk
screened banner proclaiming "Microsoft Welcomes The Linux Community",
under which various beverages were placed on a table (generally
referred to throughout the event as "The Kool Aide").  Also on the
table were letters from Microsoft, claiming that you had your
choice of any OS on your PC (apparently, laptops aren't PCs), and
that you should contact the manufacturer for a refund, not Microsoft.

Also president was a Microsoft Spokesman (toeing the company line).

Prior to the zero hour of 12 noon, Microsoft people "rebadged" the
"Microsoft Event" signs as "Linux Event" signs -- excellent spin
control, actually, given that what started out as "Windows Refund Day"
was first downgraded to "Microsoft Event", and then "Linux Event".

The only thing that felt missing from the spin control process was an
"InstallShield" dialog box, with progress indicator, and two reboots.
Who says Microsoft doesn't support hot swapping?


I was rather disappointed in the V.A. Research T-shirts.  As expected,
they were more specific to Linux than they were to the Windows Refund
Day event.

At around 12 noon, the parade made its entry, apparently from the
CostCo parking lot, down Vintage Park Drive, and left on Tower Lane.
Visible were many V.A. Research shirts, numerours penguins, several
FreeBSD shirts, and Eric Raymond, in a Yoda robe.

Pausing briefly for a photo opportunity, and then crossing the street
in groups so as to not block traffic, the group enetered the parking
structure, and, apparently for best visual effect, headed up the ramp
to the fourth floor.

As things wound up tighter, the people who had a legitimate refund
claim were herded into a corner for a rehersal of the plan of action:
the people would go in in groups, no more than 10 at a time, take the
elevator to the 9th floor office, and politely and firmly request a
refund.

This worked for the first several groups; or "worked", inasmuch that
no refund was forthcoming, and the supplicants were not permitted to
enter the Microsoft offices, proper.

Contrary to Microsoft's claims of making personnel available to
answer questions, after the first several groups, Microsoft locked
off the elevator access to their floor.

Attempts were made to go to a floor higher or lower, and walk the
stairs, but the stairs were only for fire escape, and so those
attempting that route had to exit at street level, refundless.

Much was made of the failure to obtain refunds; you will undoubtedly
see and hear those in at least the first and second groups in
interviews published over the next few days.  Apparently, it has
already been on CNN (Hi, Mom!).  Maybe they won't cut out the FreeBSD
T-shirts out of the picture, or report it as a Linux event, like
Microsoft tried to spin it.  But I won't hold my breath.  8-(.


Other than Eric Raymond declaiming to a reporter "Where do we go next?
We're taking over the servers and the corporate IS.", and the poor
BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
Several CDROM people were there), all in all a good way to spend a
Monday.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 16: 6:24 1999
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        jasone@canonware.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, grog@lemis.com,
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:52:45 GMT."
             <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:05:27 -0800
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> BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?

Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
materials. :)

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 16:33:39 1999
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To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com> 
   of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:05:27 PST." <18680.919123527@zippy.cdrom.com> 
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"Jordan K. Hubbard" writes:
> > BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> > the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> 
> Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
> materials. :)

Quick! Everyone should contribute their Microsoft Refunds to the 
FreeBSD Flag Fund!  :-)

--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net
=====================================================================
The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its
capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 16:36:18 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:35:47 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>,
        Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com,
        hasty@rah.star-gate.com, grog@lemis.com, kline@tera.com,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 04:05:27PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> > the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> 
> Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
> materials. :)

Note to self, Get banner made for future events ......


Josef 

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 17: 1: 9 1999
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, dyson@iquest.net,
        jgrosch@mooseriver.com, brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com,
        grog@lemis.com, kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:05:27 PST."
             <18680.919123527@zippy.cdrom.com> 
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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> > BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> > the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> 
> Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
> materials. :)
> 
> - Jordan

Say whatever happen to the Daemon dolls . It would have been 
perfect for the demo --- something for microsoft in their spare
time to squeeze 8)

	Cheers,
	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 17: 1:33 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
In-Reply-To: <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 15, 99 11:52:45 pm"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:00:30 -0800 (PST)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
        brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
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According to Terry Lambert:
> Windows Refund Day
> 
> 
> Well, a number of FreeBSD people actually showed up to "show the flag"
> on "Windows Refund Day".
> 
		
		[[ .. ]]

> 
> Other than Eric Raymond declaiming to a reporter "Where do we go next?
> We're taking over the servers and the corporate IS.", and the poor
> BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> Several CDROM people were there), all in all a good way to spend a
> Monday.
> 
> 

	Thanks for the great reporting, Terry.  Besides the 
	regular press, did anyone get this on tape??  Seems
	to me that this event could grow into an hour show
	for Nova or NPR.  And if we're lucky, other non-sensational
	news orgs  (like the BBC).

	Brett, this is entirely fit for your skills....seems to me.

	gary



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 17: 3:46 1999
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cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, dyson@iquest.net,
        jgrosch@mooseriver.com, brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com,
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:00:21 PST."
             <199902160100.RAA10960@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:02:52 -0800
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They're still somewhere in production.  I don't know when they'll
arrive.

- Jordan

> > > BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> > > the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> > 
> > Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
> > materials. :)
> > 
> > - Jordan
> 
> Say whatever happen to the Daemon dolls . It would have been 
> perfect for the demo --- something for microsoft in their spare
> time to squeeze 8)
> 
> 	Cheers,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 17: 4:30 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:35:47 PST."
             <19990215163547.A19905@mooseriver.com> 
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I do believe that we have a few hardware engineers and physics on board so ,
how about one those laser gadgets to animate Chucky on walls 8)


	Have Fun Guys!
	Amancio

> On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 04:05:27PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > > BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> > > the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> > 
> > Probably because we don't have a FreeBSD flag in the trade show
> > materials. :)
> 
> Note to self, Get banner made for future events ......
> 
> 
> Josef 
> 
> -- 
> Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
> jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 17:19:47 1999
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:33:11 MST."
             <4.1.19990215063152.040ced40@mail.lariat.org> 
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> At 07:28 AM 2/15/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
> >Think adult she-devil halloween costumes at an "All-A-Dollar" or a
> >"Pic-N-Save" type store, where they tend to shovel out off season
> >goods for very cheap.
> 
> I don't know if they need to go THAT cheap. However, leather catsuits
> of the type described in Mike's message typically start at $500 for
> "basic black" and go 'way up for custom colors. That's a hefty
> investment.

You get what you pay for.  8)
-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 19:21:41 1999
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To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: The Great Linux Event !
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:21:31 -0800
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2209072,00.html

	Read On,
	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 19:23: 5 1999
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To: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
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Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day: Watch out for Linux tactics 
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             <19990215140648.A99426@wopr.caltech.edu> 
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> 
> I'm sure that the FreeBSD Project is not so fragile that it can be
> destroyed by a single vocal supporter.

Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
fool of himself today, as usual.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 19:29:11 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:59:00 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Microsoft refunds (was: The Great Linux Event !)
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On Monday, 15 February 1999 at 19:21:31 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2209072,00.html

It's funny that nobody has taken issue with the fact that Microsoft
refuses to even meet people with a legitimate business request.  It's
one thing for them to hold a reception for people who are just along
for the ride, but they should have been available for the people who
wanted their money back.  I see their action as being in a breach of
their own license.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 19:37:12 1999
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
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Subject: Re: Microsoft refunds (was: The Great Linux Event !) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:59:00 +1030."
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Hi Greg!

When I read the news article I said : "Ouch -- Microsoft f** up "

It is almost as they want to be sue to prove I guess that Linux
is a viable option --- very weird and it should be very interesting
to see how it turns out. My take after a short analysis Microsoft
is going to start handing out the refunds so lets see what 
the week brings 8)

	Cheers,
	Amancio

> On Monday, 15 February 1999 at 19:21:31 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2209072,00.html
> 
> It's funny that nobody has taken issue with the fact that Microsoft
> refuses to even meet people with a legitimate business request.  It's
> one thing for them to hold a reception for people who are just along
> for the ride, but they should have been available for the people who
> wanted their money back.  I see their action as being in a breach of
> their own license.
> 
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 19:40:50 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
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             <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com> 
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> ... and the poor
> BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
> the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
> Several CDROM people were there),

One (I) was there.  The only "flag" I'm aware of is the 8' booth 
banner, which would have been near impossible to carry or display.  

As it was, I think almost every marcher and media face went away with a 
FreeBSD 3.0 CDROM, stickers, promo lit, and as much patter as Josef and 
I could manage to ram at them.  I also managed to interfere with ESR 
several times in order to get himself to correct his phrasing (linux 
-> relevant term), and stickered him on camera.

> all in all a good way to spend a
> Monday.

Too cold for me, but certainly worthwhile.  Where were the rest of you 
lazy bastards?

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 20:11:28 1999
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Subject: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
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Unfortunately, the very thing I expected to happen DID happen: the 
"Linux faithful" appear to have made sure that FreeBSD was not mentioned 
in news coverage of the event. The following articles mentioned Linux 
exclusively:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_279000/279926.stm
http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/zdtvnews/ (See February 15th early and late news reports)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/cte395.htm
http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/ap/docs/148082l.htm

This one happened to mention OS/2 (follow the link from the "news burst" to
the main article):

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/filters/bursts/0,3422,2209061,00.html

This one actually mentioned FreeBSD, but only as one of a laundry list of
operating systems:

http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/reuters/docs/146260l.htm

In short, the FreeBSD users who joined the group were represented to the
press by the organizers as being Linux enthusiasts.

This is what I was concerned about. The FreeBSD supporters who attended were
taken for a ride.

--Brett Glass


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 20:20:52 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
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On 16-Feb-99 Mike Smith wrote:
> > all in all a good way to spend a
> > Monday.
>  Too cold for me, but certainly worthwhile.  Where were the rest of you 
>  lazy bastards?
It was too far to ride.

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 20:31:39 1999
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To: David Kelly <dkelly@hiwaay.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
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At 06:33 PM 2/15/99 -0600, David Kelly wrote:
 
>Quick! Everyone should contribute their Microsoft Refunds to the 
>FreeBSD Flag Fund!  :-)

If we can get some materials and artwork, I and my wife (whom
Jordan met at COMDEX) will volunteer to do the sewing.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 20:34:25 1999
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At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
>fool of himself today, as usual.

How? Do tell.

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21: 1: 2 1999
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At 05:15 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>You get what you pay for.  8)

But... but... I just downloaded FreeBSD 3.1, and I paid.... ;-)

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21: 5:24 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day 
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At 10:35 PM 2/15/99 , Mike Smith wrote:
>> ... and the poor
>> BSD turnout relative to the Linux numbers (why didn't someone bring
>> the FreeBSD flag from the trade show materials at Walnut Cree CDROM?
>> Several CDROM people were there),
>
>One (I) was there.  The only "flag" I'm aware of is the 8' booth 
>banner, which would have been near impossible to carry or display.  
>
>As it was, I think almost every marcher and media face went away with a 
>FreeBSD 3.0 CDROM, stickers, promo lit, and as much patter as Josef and 
>I could manage to ram at them.  I also managed to interfere with ESR 
>several times in order to get himself to correct his phrasing (linux 
>-> relevant term), and stickered him on camera.
>
>> all in all a good way to spend a
>> Monday.
>
>Too cold for me, but certainly worthwhile.  Where were the rest of you 
>lazy bastards?

I was here in my 'NOC' playing Forsaken.,  Because alas, I'm in Maine, and
all that people do here is 'play that nifty solitaire thingy that comes
with the computer'.

Sickening, I know.


---
Drew "Droobie" Baxter
Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM)
OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA
http://www.droo.orland.me.us

PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21:18:38 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:17:53 -0800 (PST)
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http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/

Good talk about how PR can be done.

Catchya Later,		|	Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter.
Jason Wells		|	http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21:22: 5 1999
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http://unix.oreilly.com/news/unix_love_0299.html

I was cruising ORA tonight. This is cute. Only a nerd could understand
this article.

Catchya Later,		|	Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter.
Jason Wells		|	http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21:47:39 1999
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From: "Craig Harding" <crh@outpost.co.nz>
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:45:57 +1200
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Subject: Newsflash: The Media Are Stupid
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So Brett Glass sends a major alert to the list, pointing out that the 
mainstream news media so far have only focused on Linux users as 
participants in Windows Refund Day. "It's all a big Linux users 
conspiracy" he cries. "Something Must Be Done."[1]

Apart from not knowing what this Something might be to make Linux 
people spontaneously be nice to FreeBSD people [2], Brett's apparent 
enthusiasm for conspiracy theories and Linux bashing have caused him 
to miss the real problem:

Mainstream journalists are stupid. Really stupid. The media's 
specialty "Science & Technology" reporters often know 
surprisingly little about technical matters, so expecting normal 
journo's to grasp the subtleties of the "huge" differences between 
FreeBSD and Linux[3] (for example) is wildly optimistic at best.

I run a video production company, which among other things provides
freelance camera crews for the daily news bulletin of one of the two 
national television networks in New Zealand. I frequently work 
alongside well-known TV reporters. They're great people, but the 
nature of the game is that stories are usually 75% written before the 
journo begins the first interview. Even if they do understand the 
intricacies involved (such as the journo I worked with covering an 
airline crash investigation who holds a private pilot's license), 
their explicit goal is to present the story in a way that will appeal 
to the average person in the street - complicated parts of the story 
are deliberately simplified.

Admittedly my experience is primarily in TV news, which sticks to the 
shallow end of the journalism pool. But let's be honest - with a 
few notable exceptions, the mainstream media isn't interested in 
reporting in depth any more.

Note that while I strongly disagree with Brett about his 
Linux-bashing, I deplore attempts to silence him. In case you haven't 
been paying attention, one of the instrumental factors in Linux's 
success was clearly the uncontrolled, over-the-top, blind, ignorant, 
evangelical advocacy of lots of Linux enthusiasts. They didn't check 
their activities with any PR co-ordinator or core team, they just 
went around telling people Linux is the greatest thing in the world, 
irregardless of how wrong that was.

I'm not, BTW, trying to say that Brett is ignorant or blind (which I
realise could be the inference from my previous paragraph). I'm just
saying one of the things FreeBSD needs is people willing to simply
advocate the bloody OS! Even blindly, even if they're doing it in a
manner that would cause the core team to reach for the nuke switch.
Sure a paid PR or marketing position associated with WC is a good
thing (actually a great thing), but we need the other stuff as well.

BTW Brett - while you were lamenting the evils of Linux, the 
FreeBSDers who actually attended Windows Refund Day and handed out 
FreeBSD stuff probably achieved far more for FreeBSD advocacy.

This is getting Lambert-esque - I better stop.

						-- C.


[1] Yes this is wildly paraphrasing. I'll now wildly paraphrase my 
own message to save the flamers the trouble: "Whine whine namedrop 
proof-by-association whine".

[2] A few of the ideas that sprang to mind:
	Kidnap the penguin
	Kidnap Linus
	Buy out Microsoft, rename Win 2000 to Inferior-To-FreeBSD 1.0
	Buy out NBC, rename MSNBC to BSD News
	Appoint Jordan as the next Pope.
	Encourage Terry to stop holding back and tell us what he really 
		thinks.

[3] Some of those enormous differences, as seen by a journalist:

Linux is an OS alternative to Windows, it's roughly based on
Unix[tm], it's freely available for download on the Internet, it
runs web servers better than Windows.

FreeBSD is an OS alternative to Windows, it's roughly based on
Unix[tm], it's freely available for download on the Internet, it
runs web servers better than Windows. 

Yeah, I see it much clearer now. Chalk and cheese.
-- 
Craig Harding         Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd
     "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 21:57:10 1999
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You've got my vote.
>         Buy out Microsoft, rename Win 2000 to Inferior-To-FreeBSD 1.0
>         Buy out NBC, rename MSNBC to BSD News
>         Appoint Jordan as the next Pope.

-- 
Eric Hodel
hodeleri@seattleu.edu

Where do you want to go today?  http://www.FreeBSD.org

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:15: 6 1999
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On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Eric Hodel wrote:

>You've got my vote.
>>         Buy out Microsoft, rename Win 2000 to Inferior-To-FreeBSD 1.0
>>         Buy out NBC, rename MSNBC to BSD News
>>         Appoint Jordan as the next Pope.

I am not sure I could let a Pope like that kiss any babies.

Catchya Later,		|	Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter.
Jason Wells		|	http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:15:23 1999
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On 15-Feb-99 Jack Velte wrote:
> Part of bottom navigation of Gnome, including Wanda the fortune-telling
> fish.
> 
> No doubt that future is going to be damn interesting. All these people --
> plus at least another 250 from around the planet -- are working on Gnome
> 1.0, a user-friendly, free operating system designed for you and me and
> people like our parents. Gnome is part of Richard Stallman's GNU Project

I sincerely hops that the Operating System line is a typo. Gnome is only a
GFX frontend.

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven        join #FreeBSD on Undernet
asmodai(at)wxs.nl          This is my Truth, tell me your's... 
Network/Security Specialist      <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
*BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:17:46 1999
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To: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Eric Hodel <hodeleri@seattleu.edu>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Newsflash: The Media Are Stupid
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 10:14:23PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Eric Hodel wrote:
> 
> >You've got my vote.

> >>         Buy out Microsoft, rename Win 2000 to Inferior-To-FreeBSD 1.0
> >>         Buy out NBC, rename MSNBC to BSD News
> >>         Appoint Jordan as the next Pope.
> 
> I am not sure I could let a Pope like that kiss any babies.

Maybe he could content himself with fathering your babies.

-d

-- 
dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:24:25 1999
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Subject: Re: Newsflash: The Media Are Stupid 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:17:56 CST."
             <19990216001756.R1256@stumpy.dannyland.org> 
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:23:52 -0800
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"OK, OK, everyone stop it.  It's silly!  The bit about Microsoft and
Linux was OK, but then it just got silly!  Carry on!"

> On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 10:14:23PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Eric Hodel wrote:
> > 
> > >You've got my vote.
> 
> > >>         Buy out Microsoft, rename Win 2000 to Inferior-To-FreeBSD 1.0
> > >>         Buy out NBC, rename MSNBC to BSD News
> > >>         Appoint Jordan as the next Pope.
> > 
> > I am not sure I could let a Pope like that kiss any babies.
> 
> Maybe he could content himself with fathering your babies.
> 
> -d
> 
> -- 
> dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:25: 8 1999
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>,
        Eric Hodel <hodeleri@seattleu.edu>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Newsflash: The Media Are Stupid
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 10:23:52PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> "OK, OK, everyone stop it.  It's silly!  The bit about Microsoft and
> Linux was OK, but then it just got silly!  Carry on!"

Damn constrictive core members. ;)

-danny

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:56: 9 1999
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:55:53 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page
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                          FreeBSD Counter Project


The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have
put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is
an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a 
very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used
and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to
ISVs and hardware and software vendors. 

You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can
be found at :

    http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html

Couple of caveats:

    * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the
      project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see
      this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct
      marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. 

    * Suggestions and comments are welcome!

    * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations
      sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install
      chances are you are in this database. 


This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month.


-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 22:57:28 1999
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Message-ID: <19990215225722.B21200@mooseriver.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:57:22 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page
Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
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                         Retail outlets for FreeBSD


A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of
FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a
number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at

    http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html  

Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email,
and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you
friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD.


This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th.

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Mon Feb 15 23:46:16 1999
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On Mon, 15 Feb 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote:

> http://unix.oreilly.com/news/unix_love_0299.html
> 
> I was cruising ORA tonight. This is cute. Only a nerd could understand
> this article.
 
I *love* it :-)

Marco


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  0:51:59 1999
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Jordan K Hubbard wrote:

> We are pleased, as always, to announce the availability of
> 3.1-RELEASE, the much anticipated follow-on release to FreeBSD 3.0
> (released November, 1998).  Many hundreds of bug fixes and general
> enhancements have been made to the system so please see the release
> notes at http://www.freebsd.org/releases/3.1R/notes.html for more
> information.
> 

I love the GIF of Chuck delivering the goods at
http://www.freebsd.org/releases :-)

-- 
      FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
      My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov
_______________________________________________________________
Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK
CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry
mailto:marko@uk.radan.com                  http://www.radan.com

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  2:46:49 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:46:47 -0700
From: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>
To: freebsd-chat@freeBSD.org
Subject: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
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--yrj/dFKFPuw6o+aM
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Recently in my area I was put in contact with a company that had been
seeking FreeBSD help for a while (specifically for an upgrade to 3.0),
and they ended up digging up (as he put it) a 'linux admin' who was
woefully incompetent with FreeBSD and ended up formatting both of
their systems (loosing all data), after wedging them to a point where
he couldn't recover them (although from what I understand it was
probably a simple error).

Regardless, the manager made the comment to me that 'you [FreeBSD] guys
are very hard to find' which made me consider things a little bit.=20
Most people I know are willing to do a little freelance work,
regardless of the current job they may hold.  With this in mind it
might not be a bad idea to have a resource available where FreeBSD
admins who are interested in work (temporary freelance or permanent)
can simply register their name and area they are in, along with contact
information.  Other people and businesses would be able to use this to
get ahold of help more readilly.  The service would definitely want to
have a disclaimer, and despite the fun factor it shouldn't keep
information on skill levels nor anything other than 'this person says
they know freebsd as an administrator', leaving everything up to the
end user.

This is of course not too different than what exists currently under
the Commercial Consultanting Services list, but it'd be specifically
for individuals (and firms I suppose), as a searchable database
oriented off of the admin location--specifically designed to aid
people who _need_ FreeBSD support and email/news/etc is not sufficient
(or they dont want to do the work themselves).

While I could easilly run and spin this off on my own server, I do not
see much of a reason to do that, as it would work best as a part of
the central site.

-Brandon Gillespie

(btw, please CC me to any replies, as I am not on -chat).

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  7: 0:39 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:59:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jason C. Wells" <jcwells@u.washington.edu>
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To: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
In-Reply-To: <19990216034647.A13474@ice.cold.org>
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On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brandon Gillespie wrote:

>While I could easilly run and spin this off on my own server, I do not
>see much of a reason to do that, as it would work best as a part of
>the central site.
>
>-Brandon Gillespie

You should get in touch with freebsdrocks.org and perhaps UGU. UGU is unix
centric. freebsdrocks is obviously more FreeBSD specific. UGU already
maintains info for unix consultants. freebsdrocks is interested in job
seekers but that site is fledgling. I am sure they would love to here from
you.


Catchya Later,		|	Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter.
Jason Wells		|	http://www.freebsd.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  8:45:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:45:11 -0700
To: crh@outpost.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Newsflash: The Media Are Stupid
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>BTW Brett - while you were lamenting the evils of Linux, the 
>FreeBSDers who actually attended Windows Refund Day and handed out 
>FreeBSD stuff probably achieved far more for FreeBSD advocacy.

I actually attended an event in another city, though it rather
fizzled.

And you know darn well that I don't think Linux itself is
evil; it's the GPL, and the rabid zealots who attempt to
exclude all alternatives (and, yes, they DID successfully
exclude users of commercial OSes pretty much entirely
in the Bay Area) which do great harm.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  8:47: 6 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:11:16 MST."
             <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org> 
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> Unfortunately, the very thing I expected to happen DID happen: the 
> "Linux faithful" appear to have made sure that FreeBSD was not mentioned 
> in news coverage of the event. The following articles mentioned Linux 
> exclusively:

I doubt it had much to do with the "Linux Faithful", so much as the 
total paucity of FreeBSD supporters turning out (that includes you, 
Brett, since you admit to wimping out yourself).

> This is what I was concerned about. The FreeBSD supporters who attended were
> taken for a ride.

Microsoft contributed significantly to this with their labelling of the 
event as a "Linux" Event.
-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  8:49:48 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:49:24 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux 
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199902161634.IAA17833@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 08:34 AM 2/16/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>I doubt it had much to do with the "Linux Faithful", so much as the 
>total paucity of FreeBSD supporters turning out (that includes you, 
>Brett, since you admit to wimping out yourself).

No, I didn't "wimp out." I simply did not go to the Bay Area, because
the event was run by a Linux group and was intended to exclude users
of many alternative OSes.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9: 0:26 1999
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To: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>
cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Chuck GIF 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:51:18 GMT."
             <36C93185.AA11017E@uk.radan.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:58:57 -0800
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> I love the GIF of Chuck delivering the goods at
> http://www.freebsd.org/releases :-)

There are more where that came from - look forward to a new series of
images on T-shirts, CDs and whatnot.  One of the 1st ones is already
on the new 3.1 CD.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9: 9: 8 1999
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Chuck GIF 
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 08:58 AM 2/16/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
 
>> I love the GIF of Chuck delivering the goods at
>> http://www.freebsd.org/releases :-)
>
>There are more where that came from - look forward to a new series of
>images on T-shirts, CDs and whatnot.  One of the 1st ones is already
>on the new 3.1 CD.

I want to know where I can get my copy of "FreeBSD 4.0." (I think I'll
pass on "FreeBSD 2000;" Microsoft has jinxed THAT name.)

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9:11:58 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
In-Reply-To: <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Feb 15, 99 07:35:19 pm"
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:16:52 -0500 (EST)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
        brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
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Mike Smith said:
> 
> Too cold for me, but certainly worthwhile.  Where were the rest of you 
> lazy bastards?
> 
Indianapolis -- you think that I am a good advocate anyway? :-).  In
person I am very quiet, and careful what I say, and in email: flame-city :-).

Also, I have been on a 3wk lightning project (helping my company with a
750K receivable.) :-).

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9:12:10 1999
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To: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>
cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 03:46:47 MST."
             <19990216034647.A13474@ice.cold.org> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:11:53 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
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> Regardless, the manager made the comment to me that 'you [FreeBSD] guys
> are very hard to find' which made me consider things a little bit.=20

Did he try sending mail to freebsd-jobs first?  As far as I know, this
is the premium place for job-seekers to subscribe themselves and for
job-providers to post their reqs.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9:21: 5 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:20:32 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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References: <Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:06:49 PST."             <19990215140648.A99426@wopr.caltech.edu>
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At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
>fool of himself today, as usual.

A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."

He's clearly gone over to the Dark Side. ;-)

--Brett

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9:40:45 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:40:41 -0800
From: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
Message-ID: <19990216094041.A18012@wopr.caltech.edu>
References: <Your <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com> <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org>
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On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 09:11:16PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:

> This one actually mentioned FreeBSD, but only as one of a laundry list of
> operating systems:
> 
> http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/reuters/docs/146260l.htm

Today's Mercury Center story mentions Linux and FreeBSD on equal
footing at the beginning of the story, and has a laundry-list later
on.

http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/march021699.htm

-- 
Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com> * Valtoo!
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16  9:48:38 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:48:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
To: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
cc: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sun, 14 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote:

> Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there.  The band 
> "Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed 
> to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE.

I have an issue with this.  The band Everything (www.ecolon.com) has been
doing MBONE broadcast concerts for at least 4 years now.  I suggest
someone ask STD if they are in fact the first on the net, before they get
sued.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10: 2:47 1999
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
cc: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:11:53 PST."
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Hi Jordan,

I think people want a job web page with a pointer from www.freesd.org.

	Best Regards,
	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10: 4: 0 1999
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From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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On 16-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote:

> I want to know where I can get my copy of "FreeBSD 4.0." (I think I'll
> pass on "FreeBSD 2000;" Microsoft has jinxed THAT name.)

cvsup to CURRENT Brett =P

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven      http://www.freebsdzine.org> 
asmodai(at)wxs.nl          This is my Truth, tell me your's... 
Network/Security Specialist      <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
*BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10:10:19 1999
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To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: They Just Won't Do WINDOWS!
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San Jose Mercury Newspape's Front Page :

The protesters back "open source" or "free software" operating systems, 
such as Linux, and FreeBSD , a version of Unix.


Congrats to the FreeBSD folks who attended!!!

	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10:16:39 1999
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:02:09 PST."
             <199902161802.KAA45614@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:16:22 -0800
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Well, if somebody wants to create and actively maintain a jobs page, I
won't stand in their way.  It would have to be actively maintained,
however, since there's nothing more useless than a page full of stale
job listings that have already been filled and resumes from people who
went back to full-time employment long ago.  If that happens, people
will stop visiting the page and we'll have simply wasted our time.

- Jordan

> Hi Jordan,
> 
> I think people want a job web page with a pointer from www.freesd.org.
> 
> 	Best Regards,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10:28:20 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:49:24 MST."
             <4.1.19990216094823.0410d990@mail.lariat.org> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:28:04 -0800
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> No, I didn't "wimp out." I simply did not go to the Bay Area, because
> the event was run by a Linux group and was intended to exclude users
> of many alternative OSes.

I wish people would stop looking at this so one-dimensionally.  The
function of these events is not JUST to stoke the press, though that's
always nice, but to also meet some of your fellow geeks and plant the
seed that maybe Linux isn't the only game in town and there are others
who feel just as passionately about a different solution.

In effect, somebody needs to evangelize to the evangelists and that
appears to have happened here regardless of how the press chose to
spin the event.  Don't forget that most of these folks probably never
even heard of Linux 2 or 3 years ago and it's not like their minds are
completely closed to the idea of something else being free and
wonderful - I've personally converted many dozens of Linux users over
to FreeBSD, some of whom are now our loudest advocates.

Even more importantly, expecting the press corps to grow brains and
learn that there's more than one poster child to show off is just not
realistic.  Linux currently has the spotlight and the press is going
to continue to focus the spotlight in one place, at least for awhile,
because that's what the press does.  They're not TRYING to present a
balanced viewpoint here and rarely do, they're just trying to get some
of that Linux buzz on themselves and show that they're "hip" too in
covering it.  I've had press people tell me directly that they know
about FreeBSD but they have no desire to confuse their audience by
focusing on more than one free OS since their audience is still trying
to come to grips with the idea of any OS being free at all.  I don't
have to like this, but I also can't say I blame them.  One sound bite,
one poster child, one solid 15 minutes of fame at a time - that's how
the game works.

As an example, anyone here ever see People Magazine and their "sexiest
man alive" cover feature they like to run on the news stands every few
months?  I remember it was Mel Gibson just a few months ago, as I
stood there with my Ben and Jerry's slowly melting and waiting for
check-out, and just the other day it was now Leonard DiCaprio.  Mel
Gibson is, as far as I know, still alive and well but evidently he's
no longer sexy if we believe People Magazine, my point simply being
that the press is NOT about balanced coverage and expecting it to be
is, frankly, the height of stupidity.  The press is about hype, and
hype works best when it's concentrated.

Given time, I expect that people both inside and outside the press
will get tired of Linux since even the most aggressive press agent has
a hard time getting it to stay focused on anything (just ask the
artist formerly known as Prince) and it will be our 15 minutes on
stage, assuming that we don't screw it up.

- Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10:29:21 1999
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
cc: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:16:22 PST."
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Okay, let me think about it . The problem that I see is that the
"right" kind of people for the job may not necessarily want to share
the info with other head hunters.


	Tnks!
	Amancio



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 10:45: 1 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902161844.LAA20541@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:44:25 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net,
        jgrosch@mooseriver.com, brett@lariat.org, jasone@canonware.com,
        grog@lemis.com, kline@tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <18974.919126972@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 15, 99 05:02:52 pm
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> > Say whatever happen to the Daemon dolls . It would have been 
> > perfect for the demo --- something for microsoft in their spare
> > time to squeeze 8)
>
> They're still somewhere in production.  I don't know when they'll
> arrive.

I was thinking of gutting a "Furby" and turning it into a "BiSDy"...
I'm waiting for the nxt generation, since they are supposed to have
better mechanicals.

I wonder if the Furby people (Tiger Electronics, LTD) would do a
"BiSDy" production run for us... I'm sure that in 10 years or so,
a "BiSDy" from a limited production run of a custom "Furby" would
be worth a hell of a lot of money.

If you get Tiger to bite on this, put me down for 10 of them or $600
worth of the things, whichever gets me the larger number (MSRP is $30
for a standard "Furby").


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:12:34 1999
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Message-Id: <199902161912.MAA22370@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:12:14 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 15, 99 09:11:16 pm
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> Unfortunately, the very thing I expected to happen DID happen: the 
> "Linux faithful" appear to have made sure that FreeBSD was not mentioned 
> in news coverage of the event. The following articles mentioned Linux 
> exclusively:

[ ... ]

> In short, the FreeBSD users who joined the group were represented to the
> press by the organizers as being Linux enthusiasts.
> 
> This is what I was concerned about. The FreeBSD supporters who attended were
> taken for a ride.

Not true everywhere... here's one where Linux and BSD are both
mentioned exactly once (though Linux is first and NetWare was
next, before a generic BSD):

	http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2191274,00.html

Here's another one that mentions Linux first, then FreeBSD:

	http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2209072,00.html

If you don't read down very far, then it's equal billing.  If you
do read dow, including Microsoft's mention, it's only 6 to 1 (and
Microsoft is mentioned 2 to 1 over Linux).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:27:23 1999
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To: chat@freebsd.org
Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux 
In-Reply-To: <22294.919189684.kithrup.freebsd.chat@zippy.cdrom.com>
References: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:49:24 MST."
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In article <22294.919189684.kithrup.freebsd.chat@zippy.cdrom.com> you write:
>I wish people would stop looking at this so one-dimensionally.  The
>function of these events is not JUST to stoke the press, though that's
>always nice, but to also meet some of your fellow geeks and plant the
>seed that maybe Linux isn't the only game in town and there are others
>who feel just as passionately about a different solution.

Indeed.

In today's San Jose Mercuery News article about the event, the phrase was
"Linux and FreeBSD, a Unix like operating system."  In the article, and in the
caption for a photograph.

Jordan used to say this; I don't know if he still believes it:  Linux is not
"the enemy," Microsoft is "the enemy," and every user who moves from Windows
to Linux is a win for us, because it gets them going in the right direction.
(Okay, that's paraphrased, my memory is good but not good enough to quote him
directly.)

Whatever Brett says, do the opposite.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:35:57 1999
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Message-Id: <199902161935.MAA23974@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: We should all read this
To: jcwells@u.washington.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:35:18 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902152117190.1414-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu> from "Jason C. Wells" at Feb 15, 99 09:17:53 pm
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> http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/
> 
> Good talk about how PR can be done.

OK, for a short article.

I suggest the following books:

	Crossing the Chasm : Marketing and Selling High-Tech Products
	to Mainstream Customers -- Geoffrey A. Moore
	Harperbusiness
	ISBN: 0887307175

	Inside the Tornado : Marketing Strategies from Silicon
	Valley's Cutting Edge -- Geoffrey A. Moore
	Harperbusiness
	ISBN: 0887307655

	Successful Marketing Strategy for High Tech Firms (Artech
	House Professional Development and Technology Management
	Library) -- Eric Viardot
	Artech House
	ISBN: 0890067708

	Marketing High Technology : An Insider's View -- William H.
	Davidow
	Free Press
	ISBN: 002907990X

	The Macintosh Way -- Guy Kawasaki
	Addison-Wesley Pub Co
	ISBN: 0673461750

	Selling the Dream : How to Promote Your Product, Company,
	or Ideas-And Make a Difference-Using Everyday Evangelism
	-- Guy Kawasaki
	Harperbusiness
	ISBN: 0887306004

	How to Drive Your Competition Crazy : Creating Disruption
	for Fun and Profit -- Guy Kawasaki
	Hyperion (Adult Trd Pap)
	ISBN: 0786881631 

	Rules for Revolutionaries : The Capitalist Manifesto for
	Creating New Products and Services -- Guy Kawasaki, Michele
	Moreno, Gary Kawasaki
	Harperbusiness
	ISBN: 0887309968

	Radical Marketing : From Harvard to Harley, Lessons From Ten
	That Broke the Rules and Made It Big -- Glenn Rifkin
	Harperbusiness
	ISBN: 0887309054

					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:44: 9 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:43:40 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>,
        Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: Brandon Gillespie <brandon@roguetrader.com>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 10:16:22AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> Well, if somebody wants to create and actively maintain a jobs page, I
> won't stand in their way.  It would have to be actively maintained,
> however, since there's nothing more useless than a page full of stale
> job listings that have already been filled and resumes from people who
> went back to full-time employment long ago.  If that happens, people
> will stop visiting the page and we'll have simply wasted our time.

On my list of things to do is to create a FreeBSD jobs page for BAFUG. Not
only is stale job listings useless so are jobs hundres of miles away. Jobs
are local and job listing should also be.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:46:54 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902161946.MAA24787@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
To: jcwells@u.washington.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:46:23 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brandon@roguetrader.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902160657520.375-100000@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu> from "Jason C. Wells" at Feb 16, 99 06:59:51 am
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> You should get in touch with freebsdrocks.org and perhaps UGU. UGU is unix

can't find freebsdrocks.org: Non-existent host/domain


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:52:23 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:50:58 -0700 (MST)
From: Brett Taylor <brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, brandon@roguetrader.com,
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
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Hi,

Terry wrote:

> can't find freebsdrocks.org: Non-existent host/domain

www.freebsdrocks.com

Brett
******************************************************************
Brett Taylor            brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu
http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/

"Bart, a woman is like a beer.  They look good, they smell good, 
 and you'd step over your own mother just to get one!" 
						Homer Simpson



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:52:39 1999
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:43:40 PST."
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I think that we want a global job listing . For intance , I may 
want a job in a beautiful lushious carribean island (gosh, 
I am actually drolling ).    

The single biggest point of contention is to find someone or an
organization willing to support the page.

	Cheers,
	Amancio

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 11:52:43 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902161951.MAA25480@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: ESR: Star Bore?
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:51:07 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, mph@pobox.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990216101905.041142c0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 16, 99 10:20:32 am
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> >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> >fool of himself today, as usual.
> 
> A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."

Too bad.  I went around mentioning to reporters that he was supposed
to be "Yoda".

Do they sell "Bill Gates" masks anywhere?  It would be intersting,
while in a full "Darth Vader" costume, to take off the helmet to
reveal a Bill Gates mask.  That picture would end up everywhere,
no matter at what press event you did it.  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12: 4:35 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902162004.NAA26568@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:04:03 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <22294.919189684@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 16, 99 10:28:04 am
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> I wish people would stop looking at this so one-dimensionally.  The
> function of these events is not JUST to stoke the press, though that's
> always nice, but to also meet some of your fellow geeks and plant the
> seed that maybe Linux isn't the only game in town and there are others
> who feel just as passionately about a different solution.

There were a *lot* of Linux people getting FreeBSD CDROM's out there,
I have to admit.  8-).

I was also disappointed that there wasn't a FreeBSD "Press Handler"
there (that would be *you*, Jordan; I'm not nearly as good at
"speechifyin'").


> Given time, I expect that people both inside and outside the press
> will get tired of Linux since even the most aggressive press agent has
> a hard time getting it to stay focused on anything (just ask the
> artist formerly known as Prince) and it will be our 15 minutes on
> stage, assuming that we don't screw it up.

An excellent point.

FreeBSD should be putting together a well rehearsed and very polished
performance for when the clock rolls around to FreeBSD's 15 minutes
so that they are used to best advantage.  I think that Linux is, in
a lot of ways, squandering large amounts of their stage time.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12: 6:17 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902162005.NAA26657@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:04:57 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
        brandon@roguetrader.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> I think that we want a global job listing . For intance , I may 
> want a job in a beautiful lushious carribean island (gosh, 
> I am actually drolling ).    

I don't think that was very droll...


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12:21:38 1999
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Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), jgrosch@mooseriver.com,
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web... 
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:21:08 -0800
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Okay, you convince me that at least I should go away for a vacation
to one of those beautiful islands 8)

	Tnks!
	Amancio


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12:26:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:26:12 -0500
From: Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: FreeBSD represented at Refund Day NYC
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Here's an article mentioning yours truly:

http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2209391,00.html

Here's a picture:

http://www.masto.com/album/showpic.cgi?picid=365
-- 
Christopher Masto        Director of Operations      NetMonger Communications
chris@netmonger.net        info@netmonger.net        http://www.netmonger.net

    "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12:30:16 1999
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:04:03 GMT."
             <199902162004.NAA26568@usr02.primenet.com> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:27:59 -0800
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> I was also disappointed that there wasn't a FreeBSD "Press Handler"
> there (that would be *you*, Jordan; I'm not nearly as good at
> "speechifyin'").

I think it's going to require additional speachfiers to really cover
these events adequately.  In my case, I was working away at home all
day on the damn 3.1 release while the rest of you were off having fun
taunting Microsoft. :-)

- Jordan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12:34: 2 1999
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Cc: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, jcwells@u.washington.edu,
	brandon@roguetrader.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD administrator/consultant db on web...
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On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brett Taylor wrote:

>> can't find freebsdrocks.org: Non-existent host/domain
>
>www.freebsdrocks.com

That is what I meant.

Catchya Later,		|	Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter.
Jason Wells		|	http://www.freebsd.org/



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 12:49:43 1999
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To: Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD represented at Refund Day NYC 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:26:12 EST."
             <19990216152611.A22929@netmonger.net> 
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:48:24 -0800
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> Here's an article mentioning yours truly:
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/news/0,4538,2209391,00.html

Well done!  Good coverage all around, and this particular event
doesn't sound like quite so much the circus the Foster City event was
(which, to be honest, makes the Linux attendees look just a bit
immature when you read the various press accounts - I'm almost rather
glad that FreeBSD didn't get tarred with the same brush at that
event).

- Jordan


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 13: 2:33 1999
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Want to see ZDTV's coverage of the event? Go *right now* to

http://play.rbn.com/?zd/zdtv/live/zdtv-20.rm




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 13: 2:51 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:57:45 -0700
To: Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990216094041.A18012@wopr.caltech.edu>
References: <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org>
 <Your <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com>
 <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 09:40 AM 2/16/99 -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote:
 
>Today's Mercury Center story mentions Linux and FreeBSD on equal
>footing at the beginning of the story, and has a laundry-list later
>on.
>
>http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/march021699.htm

Just saw that. As far as I can tell, it's the ONLY one that mentions FreeBSD 
other than the one I pointed out yesterday. It's good that someone did.

Ironically, even Microsoft passed it off the the press as a Linux event.

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 13: 9:57 1999
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At 11:27 AM 2/16/99 -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote:
 
>Whatever Brett says, do the opposite.

In that case, Sean, keep flaming me. ;-)

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 13:11:21 1999
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	jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net,
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At 06:44 PM 2/16/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:

>If you get Tiger to bite on this, put me down for 10 of them or $600
>worth of the things, whichever gets me the larger number (MSRP is $30
>for a standard "Furby").

I'll buy a couple as well.

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 14: 2:50 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:02:42 -0700
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Subject: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
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According to the article at 

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html

IBM is announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors
of Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity" here?
The announcement will come at LinuxWorld at the end of the month; there may
still be time to do something.

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 14:27:21 1999
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From: Jon Acker <ackerj@easynet.co.uk>
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At 15:02 16/02/99 -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
>According to the article at 
>
>http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html
>
>IBM is announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors
>of Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
>FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity" here?
>The announcement will come at LinuxWorld at the end of the month; there may
>still be time to do something.
>
>--Brett Glass


Could someone out there pleae create a freebsd-crusaders mailing list?

 * Jonathan Acker
 * 0181 374-1012
 * ackerj@easynet.co.uk 


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 14:32:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:31:00 -0700
To: Jon Acker <ackerj@easynet.co.uk>, chat@freebsd.org
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
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At 10:17 PM 2/16/95 +0000, Jon Acker wrote:
 
>Could someone out there pleae create a freebsd-crusaders mailing list?

It's pretty clear that you'd like to label anyone who doesn't want to see
the only viable competition for Linux go down the tubes a "crusader."

Perhaps you should sit at home in a chastity belt and wait for the 
"crusaders" to return.

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 16:30:19 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:29:45 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>,
	Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, mph@pobox.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ESR: Star Bore?
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:51:07PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> > >fool of himself today, as usual.
> > 
> > A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> > event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> > himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."
> 
> Too bad.  I went around mentioning to reporters that he was supposed
> to be "Yoda".
> 
> Do they sell "Bill Gates" masks anywhere?  It would be intersting,
> while in a full "Darth Vader" costume, to take off the helmet to
> reveal a Bill Gates mask.  That picture would end up everywhere,
> no matter at what press event you did it.  8-).

A great Holloween costume! 

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 16:40: 0 1999
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On Tuesday, 16 February 1999 at 11:43:40 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 10:16:22AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Well, if somebody wants to create and actively maintain a jobs page, I
>> won't stand in their way.  It would have to be actively maintained,
>> however, since there's nothing more useless than a page full of stale
>> job listings that have already been filled and resumes from people who
>> went back to full-time employment long ago.  If that happens, people
>> will stop visiting the page and we'll have simply wasted our time.
>
> On my list of things to do is to create a FreeBSD jobs page for BAFUG. Not
> only is stale job listings useless so are jobs hundres of miles away. Jobs
> are local and job listing should also be.

I disagree.  First, a lot of the work I do is in North America.
Secondly, some areas are so underpopulated that they would have to
find somebody elsewhere.  Where do they look if there are 30 different
sites?

I think the correct way to do this would be to start with a single
world-wide page and subdivide when it gets too big.  It's obviously a
good idea to sort it geographically.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 17:21:37 1999
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 09:11:53AM -0800, a little birdie told me
that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked
> > Regardless, the manager made the comment to me that 'you [FreeBSD] guys
> > are very hard to find' which made me consider things a little bit.=20
> 
> Did he try sending mail to freebsd-jobs first?  As far as I know, this
> is the premium place for job-seekers to subscribe themselves and for
> job-providers to post their reqs.

Then that is indeed a frightening and depressing thought.
I have 9 messages in my freebsd-jobs folder.
Nov 10, Nov 10, Nov 26, Dec 01, Dec 10, Jan 05, Jan 07, Jan 07, Jan 14.

Some premium place...



---

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| Matthew Fuller     http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd |
* fullermd@futuresouth.com       fullermd@over-yonder.net *
| UNIX Systems Administrator      Specializing in FreeBSD |
*   FutureSouth Communications   ISPHelp ISP Consulting   *
|  "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends,   |
*    is because I haven't figured out how to light the    *
|                     middle yet"                         |
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 19:18: 7 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:16:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Brett Taylor <brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990216150210.040f2c00@mail.lariat.org>
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Hi,

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote:

> According to the article at 
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html IBM is
> announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors of
> Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
> FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity"
> here?

And it doesn't say so in this article, but I've read elsewhere that
they're doing this on PowerPC based servers.  Not a lot we can do if we
don't have a PowerPC port.

Brett
******************************************************************
Brett Taylor            brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu
http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 19:38:33 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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Subject: Re: ESR: Star Bore? 
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> At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
>  
> >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> >fool of himself today, as usual.
> 
> A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."

1) He looked more like Yoda, and watching him pulling FreeBSD stickers 
   off his "costume" was pretty funny.

2) "Theorist"?  Sure, he certainly doesn't do anything _practical_.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 19:54:18 1999
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), brett@lariat.org,
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> I was also disappointed that there wasn't a FreeBSD "Press Handler"
> there (that would be *you*, Jordan; I'm not nearly as good at
> "speechifyin'").

I was the best we had, and a bit new at the game.  I thought I did a
reasonable job - Josef already had the SJ Mercury people (and maybe
others) sorted out beforehand, and I spent a lot of time mugging people 
with notebooks while he and Greg were making sure the CDs went around.

> FreeBSD should be putting together a well rehearsed and very polished
> performance for when the clock rolls around to FreeBSD's 15 minutes
> so that they are used to best advantage.  I think that Linux is, in
> a lot of ways, squandering large amounts of their stage time.

Ack.  "Bus shelter". 8)

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 20: 4:36 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
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> According to the article at 
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html
> 
> IBM is announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors
> of Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
> FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity" here?
> The announcement will come at LinuxWorld at the end of the month; there may
> still be time to do something.

Brett:

 a) Fuck Off.

 b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).

 c) Give us more money, or see a) again.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 20:32:38 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:31:45 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>,
	"Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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References: <199902161802.KAA45614@rah.star-gate.com> <22260.919188982@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990216114340.A2160@mooseriver.com> <19990217110944.T515@lemis.com>
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On Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 11:09:44AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 16 February 1999 at 11:43:40 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote:
> > On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 10:16:22AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> >> Well, if somebody wants to create and actively maintain a jobs page, I
> >> won't stand in their way.  It would have to be actively maintained,
> >> however, since there's nothing more useless than a page full of stale
> >> job listings that have already been filled and resumes from people who
> >> went back to full-time employment long ago.  If that happens, people
> >> will stop visiting the page and we'll have simply wasted our time.
> >
> > On my list of things to do is to create a FreeBSD jobs page for BAFUG. Not
> > only is stale job listings useless so are jobs hundres of miles away. Jobs
> > are local and job listing should also be.
> 
> I disagree.  First, a lot of the work I do is in North America.
> Secondly, some areas are so underpopulated that they would have to
> find somebody elsewhere.  Where do they look if there are 30 different
> sites?
> 
> I think the correct way to do this would be to start with a single
> world-wide page and subdivide when it gets too big.  It's obviously a
> good idea to sort it geographically.


Sorry, I guess I did not express my idea with any clarity. I rarely hear of
jobs in Chicago or Perth but I do hear of jobs in the Bay Area and in
LA. Yes, there should be a central point of reference but people in the
various geographic areas should run their own page. If there is one central
page instead of a page of links that would means either one person will be
getting a lot of job postings to add to the page or many people have
read/write privileges on this web site. Neither situation is optimal. A
page of links to geographicly maintained pages seems a good compromise.

My $0.002


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 21:15:42 1999
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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Subject: Re: ESR: Star Bore? 
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At 07:32 PM 2/16/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>1) He looked more like Yoda, and watching him pulling FreeBSD stickers 
>   off his "costume" was pretty funny.

Funny that would be. ;-) Seriously -- he declined to wear them?

>2) "Theorist"?  Sure, he certainly doesn't do anything _practical_.

Except write rambling, poorly structured papers about cathedrals
and bazaars.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 21:19: 9 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:18:51 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
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At 07:58 PM 2/16/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:

> a) Fuck Off.

This does not seem like it would be a particularly
productive activity.

> b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).

And what has IBM said? Apparently, they are approaching SEVERAL
Linux vendors, including small ones. But there's not a peep
about FreeBSD.

> c) Give us more money, or see a) again.

For what would more money be used?

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 21:51:50 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:51:31 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, jcwells@u.washington.edu
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: We should all read this
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:35:18PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/
> > 
> > Good talk about how PR can be done.
> 
> OK, for a short article.
> 
> I suggest the following books:
> 
> 	Crossing the Chasm : Marketing and Selling High-Tech Products
> 	to Mainstream Customers -- Geoffrey A. Moore
> 	Harperbusiness
> 	ISBN: 0887307175
> 
> 	Inside the Tornado : Marketing Strategies from Silicon
> 	Valley's Cutting Edge -- Geoffrey A. Moore
> 	Harperbusiness
> 	ISBN: 0887307655
> 
> 	Successful Marketing Strategy for High Tech Firms (Artech
> 	House Professional Development and Technology Management
> 	Library) -- Eric Viardot
> 	Artech House
> 	ISBN: 0890067708
> 
> 	Marketing High Technology : An Insider's View -- William H.
> 	Davidow
> 	Free Press
> 	ISBN: 002907990X
> 
> 	The Macintosh Way -- Guy Kawasaki
> 	Addison-Wesley Pub Co
> 	ISBN: 0673461750
> 
> 	Selling the Dream : How to Promote Your Product, Company,
> 	or Ideas-And Make a Difference-Using Everyday Evangelism
> 	-- Guy Kawasaki
> 	Harperbusiness
> 	ISBN: 0887306004
> 
> 	How to Drive Your Competition Crazy : Creating Disruption
> 	for Fun and Profit -- Guy Kawasaki
> 	Hyperion (Adult Trd Pap)
> 	ISBN: 0786881631 
> 
> 	Rules for Revolutionaries : The Capitalist Manifesto for
> 	Creating New Products and Services -- Guy Kawasaki, Michele
> 	Moreno, Gary Kawasaki
> 	Harperbusiness
> 	ISBN: 0887309968
> 
> 	Radical Marketing : From Harvard to Harley, Lessons From Ten
> 	That Broke the Rules and Made It Big -- Glenn Rifkin
> 	Harperbusiness
> 	ISBN: 0887309054


Second the recommendation for anything Guy Kawasaki has written. He used to
be the product manager for the Mac at Apple. I have heard him speak in
Chicago and he was interviewed by Terry Gross of the radio program "Fresh
Air" He is a very intelligent person who has spent a lot of time successfully
pushing an excellent product with very poor upper management backup. He is
not shy about sharing his ideas.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 21:59:13 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:59:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
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To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: freebsd-admin 0.3 released, major bug fix
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freebsd-admin 0.3 has been released.  This fixes a major bug that snuck
into 0.2 which will cause /etc/master.passwd and /etc/group to get
truncated to 0 bytes (Ouch!).

Thanks to Mark Ovens for reporting this bug after it bit him (Good thing
we have /var/backups/, eh? :)

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                     brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!                       http://www.freebsd.org

daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS
           2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 22: 3:32 1999
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From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
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Subject: freebsd-admin 0.3, contd.
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Oops.  Forgot to mention that you can get it at, as usual:

http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/~brian/freebsd-admin/

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                     brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!                       http://www.freebsd.org

daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS
           2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 22: 4:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:04:10 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: freebsd-admin 0.3 released, major bug fix
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 09:59:11PM -0800, Brian W. Buchanan wrote:
> freebsd-admin 0.3 has been released.

Where?

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 22: 5:15 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:04:58 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: freebsd-admin 0.3, contd.
References: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902162202530.699-100000@smarter.than.nu>
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 10:03:27PM -0800, Brian W. Buchanan wrote:
> Oops.  Forgot to mention that you can get it at, as usual:
> 
> http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/~brian/freebsd-admin/

Oh, there :-)


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 22:15: 2 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:14:39 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Chuck GIF
References: <36C93185.AA11017E@uk.radan.com> <21662.919184337@zippy.cdrom.com>
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 08:58:57AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > I love the GIF of Chuck delivering the goods at
> > http://www.freebsd.org/releases :-)
> 
> There are more where that came from - look forward to a new series of
> images on T-shirts, CDs and whatnot.  One of the 1st ones is already
> on the new 3.1 CD.

Where can I place an advance order for a daemon on a whatnot?


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Tue Feb 16 23:46:37 1999
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To: mph@pobox.com
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.chat
References: <Your <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com>
     <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org> <19990216094041.A18012@wopr.caltech.edu>
From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" <bkogawa@primenet.com>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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In localhost.freebsd.chat you write:

>On Mon, Feb 15, 1999 at 09:11:16PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:

>> This one actually mentioned FreeBSD, but only as one of a laundry list of
>> operating systems:
>> 
>> http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/breaking/reuters/docs/146260l.htm

>Today's Mercury Center story mentions Linux and FreeBSD on equal
>footing at the beginning of the story, and has a laundry-list later
>on.

>http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/march021699.htm

For those not receiving hardcopy of the Mercury News, the article in
question was on the front page of the Mercury News, and the first
mention of FreeBSD made the page cutoff; thus, FreeBSD was indeed
Front Page News.

-- 
bryan k ogawa  <bkogawa@primenet.com>   http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  1:51:55 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:00:24 +0100
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From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
Subject: Linux vs FreeBSD
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First I want to say I don't want generate "holy wars" ... these are only
personal opinion :-)

I installed a Red Hat which is considered the flagship of the Linux
distribution in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).
After a little use , I don't succeded in understand why a person would
prefer Linux instead FreeBSD, which in my opinion is far better.

1) FreeBSD is easier to install and it install in a more intuitive way. The
Linux "innovative" graphical fdisk is, in my opinion, very obscure.

2) The packages selection of Red Hat is a pain. 

3) The configuration of a Linux box is quite different from a FreeBSD one,
but I think ours is far superior even if I can't judge this because I have
the habit of configuring only FreeBSD boxes.
I like very much the idea to have a single file full of "options" to
customize the system.

4) I love the centralized way to stay in sync with cvsup. We have installed
a cvsup server (cvsup.masternet.it or 194.184.65.3) which not only mantain
in sync the ISP boxes, but also all the boxes I have installed here and
there (friends, company, university...) . Thanks also to cvsup4.freebsd.org
which I polled at every 24th minute :-) 

...

The only thing I have found I like in linux more than FreeBSD is the infos
the /proc file system give back to users, info like cpuinfo, mem etc etc .
Okay things that can be usefull only few times but I think they can be used
by other programs like systeminfo and similar. Why not to extend our /proc
file system ?  

I think if one can choose the distribution shares of the two OSes would be
very different from the actual ones ... The problem is , especially in
Italy, that on ten shops, only two, perhaps three have FreeBSD while
everyones have Linux. And if they have Linux they have the last
distributions, while of FreeBSD is easy they could have old version. If
you, that don't know anything or have only vague ideas about UNIX world,
arrive in a shop and want a UNIX like operating system you take what you
find first. And it's a pity on 10 times 7 or 8 it is Linux. My local
bookstore don't have any books on BSD while it is full of books on Linux.
Some of them are in Italian, too.
So it is a cat that eats it's tail (Jordan perhaps understand the
picture... I see he is full of cats :-)
More avaliability, more sells, more users, more interest and so on... 

Ok, let's finish to speak and go to populate the world with another FreeBSD
box. :-)

Thanks for your time and attention (if any :-).



Best Regards,
Gianmarco Giovannelli ,  "Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco  
http://www2.masternet.it 





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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  2: 1: 0 1999
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To: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:00:24 +0100."
             <4.1.19990217095946.00928d20@194.184.65.4> 
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Same here I don't understand the linux popularity at all and I have
installed red-hat 5.2 . The same box screams with FreeBSD + ide dma +
softupdates -- with linux you know it is not so fast 8)


	Cheers,
	Amancio




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  3:18:58 1999
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>,
	Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Chuck GIF 
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On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote:

> At 08:58 AM 2/16/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>  
> >> I love the GIF of Chuck delivering the goods at
> >> http://www.freebsd.org/releases :-)
> >
> >There are more where that came from - look forward to a new series of
> >images on T-shirts, CDs and whatnot.  One of the 1st ones is already
> >on the new 3.1 CD.
> 
> I want to know where I can get my copy of "FreeBSD 4.0." (I think I'll
> pass on "FreeBSD 2000;" Microsoft has jinxed THAT name.)
> 

That's easy - the FreeBSD 4.0, etc. is in the coming (note that the daemon
is still driving, and not yet unloading).

I am sure it will be replaced by a different image when FreeBSD 4.0 is
there, where the daemon unloads the goods.

8-)

> --Brett
> 

	Sander

	There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future -
	all these are just illusions.




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  3:31:33 1999
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From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it>
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On 17-Feb-99 Amancio Hasty wrote:
>  Same here I don't understand the linux popularity at all and I have
>  installed red-hat 5.2 . The same box screams with FreeBSD + ide dma +
>  softupdates -- with linux you know it is not so fast 8)
Hype is an amazing thing :(

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  5:23:58 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, Matthew Hunt <mph@pobox.com>,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ESR: Star Bore?
References: <Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:06:49 PST."             <19990215140648.A99426@wopr.caltech.edu> <4.1.19990216101905.041142c0@mail.lariat.org>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 17 Feb 1999 14:23:51 +0100
In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:20:32 -0700"
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Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> writes:
> At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> >fool of himself today, as usual.
> A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."

His appearance in Userfriendly must have gone to his head...

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  5:28:41 1999
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Subject: IBM and Linux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902162015480.11437-100000@peloton.physics.montana.edu> from Brett Taylor at "Feb 16, 1999  8:16:57 pm"
To: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu (Brett Taylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:28:17 -0500 (EST)
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> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote:
> 
> > According to the article at 
> > 
> > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html IBM is
> > announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors of
> > Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
> > FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity"
> > here?
> 
> And it doesn't say so in this article, but I've read elsewhere that
> they're doing this on PowerPC based servers.  Not a lot we can do if we
> don't have a PowerPC port.
> 
> Brett
> ******************************************************************
> Brett Taylor            brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu
> http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/


The word is Netfinity Servers (x86) as well as Power PC 
boxes.  Probably going to fill the OS/2 Warp Power PC niche as 
well as add another OS to the Netfinity.  When I worked at IBM

I remember some server PC's which used to ship with
CD's for WinNT, OS/2 Warp Server, Netware 3.x and 4.x and SCO and
all you had to do was order an install license key from IBM
to load them.

The boxes designed for OS/2 for PowerPC became low end AIX boxes 
(IDE Drive etc.).  The higher end ones with  SCSI were very nice
AIX boxes.

Looks like a reasonable thought.  Linux would fill out a nice low end
position for IBM without being as much of a political problem
as pushing OS/2 against Microsoft.  Linux is used inside IBM as a 
popular hobby os -- since FreeBSD had no token ring support.

Bill
---
  Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
  villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
  bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  5:30:49 1999
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> Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> writes:
> > At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> > >fool of himself today, as usual.
> > A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> > event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> > himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."
> 
> His appearance in Userfriendly must have gone to his head...
> 
> DES
> -- 
> Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no

Not surprising.

Bill

(who amazingly has an Autographed ESR copy of Hacker's Dictionary -- ESR was 
selling 'em two years ago at the Trenton Computer Festival)
---
  Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
  villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
  bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  6:25:43 1999
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From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
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On 17-Feb-99 Mike Smith wrote:

> Brett:
> 
>  a) Fuck Off.
> 
>  b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).
> 
>  c) Give us more money, or see a) again.

Mike, this leaves nothing to imagination ;)

One thing to think about, imagine IBM using FreeBSD, the report said they
would make their own (proprietary) version of it. Nice to have recognition
with it, but it doesn't add anything to the Project as a whole with regard
to software development/ideas.

But then again, I might have missed some agreement...

---
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven      http://www.freebsdzine.org> 
asmodai(at)wxs.nl          This is my Truth, tell me your's... 
Network/Security Specialist      <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
*BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how <http://www.freebsd.org>


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  7:35:46 1999
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To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" <bkogawa@primenet.com>, mph@pobox.com
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902170749.XAA10730@foo.primenet.com>
References: <Your <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com>
 <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 11:49 PM 2/16/99 -0800, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote:
 
=>>http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/march021699.htm
>
>For those not receiving hardcopy of the Mercury News, the article in
>question was on the front page of the Mercury News, and the first
>mention of FreeBSD made the page cutoff; thus, FreeBSD was indeed
>Front Page News.

It's great that the Merc came through! Thank Heaven. Other mentions
of FreeBSD were rare.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  8:37:22 1999
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To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>,
	Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
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At 07:20 AM 2/17/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote:

>One thing to think about, imagine IBM using FreeBSD, the report said they
>would make their own (proprietary) version of it. 

IBM is stingy with development resources. They'd probably take the "canned"
version from Walnut Creek.

I've run FreeBSD on their x86 servers, so I know they can. The only possible
issue is lack of token ring support.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  9:40:20 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902171740.KAA15480@usr07.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu (Brett Taylor)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:40:06 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9902162015480.11437-100000@peloton.physics.montana.edu> from "Brett Taylor" at Feb 16, 99 08:16:57 pm
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> > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,389494,00.html IBM is
> > announcing that it will work with not one but SEVERAL distributors of
> > Linux, pre-installing their distributions on PCs. But NOT A WORD about
> > FreeBSD! Hello, Walnut Creek.... Can you say, "missed opportunity"
> > here?
> 
> And it doesn't say so in this article, but I've read elsewhere that
> they're doing this on PowerPC based servers.  Not a lot we can do if we
> don't have a PowerPC port.

Plenty of us would be happy to do the work, if IBM loaned the hardware
for a port.  I rather expect NetBSD runs on it already, but if not, it
would probably be necessary to have access to some documentation,
though IBM has always been very public with documentation (the IBM
Technical Reference had a BIOS source listing).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17  9:46:21 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902171745.KAA15904@usr07.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:45:55 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: mike@smith.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990216221552.04027680@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 16, 99 10:18:51 pm
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> > b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).
> 
> And what has IBM said? Apparently, they are approaching SEVERAL
> Linux vendors, including small ones. But there's not a peep
> about FreeBSD.
> 
> > c) Give us more money, or see a) again.
> 
> For what would more money be used?

The implication is that this is the mysterious "other platform" that
Jordan keeps referring to, and that one of the things Mike was hired
to do was "work on the port".

I think you guys are talking about different things.

I think that Mike is talking about the port, and Brett is talking
about selling IBM on FreeBSD.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 10: 2: 8 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902171801.LAA17056@usr07.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
To: gmarco@giovannelli.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:01:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990217095946.00928d20@194.184.65.4> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Feb 17, 99 11:00:24 am
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> I think if one can choose the distribution shares of the two OSes would be
> very different from the actual ones ... The problem is , especially in
> Italy, that on ten shops, only two, perhaps three have FreeBSD while
> everyones have Linux. And if they have Linux they have the last
> distributions, while of FreeBSD is easy they could have old version. If
> you, that don't know anything or have only vague ideas about UNIX world,
> arrive in a shop and want a UNIX like operating system you take what you
> find first. And it's a pity on 10 times 7 or 8 it is Linux. My local
> bookstore don't have any books on BSD while it is full of books on Linux.
> Some of them are in Italian, too.
> So it is a cat that eats it's tail (Jordan perhaps understand the
> picture... I see he is full of cats :-)
> More avaliability, more sells, more users, more interest and so on... 

You should contact Jordan and see if he wants/needs an Italian
branch office.

Walnut Creek CDROM works with a Japanese company to produce a
Japanese version of FreeBSD on CDROM in Japan that closely tracks
the US releases.  I'm sure he would be willing to talk about
working a similar deal for Italy.

Contact: Jordan Hubbard <jkh@freebsd.org>

There has to be money in it for someone.

If you are willing to front the translation work, you might be able
to get translated copies of "The Complete FreeBSD" book; alternately,
there are 5 or 6 Japanese FreeBSD books, at last count, which could
also be translated.

In either case, you would need to work out publication rights with
the authors/publishers, depending on how rights are assigned.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 10:47: 6 1999
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To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Cc: Mark Ovens <marko@uk.radan.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Chuck GIF 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:14:39 +1100."
             <19990217171438.36311@welearn.com.au> 
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:46:38 -0800
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> Where can I place an advance order for a daemon on a whatnot?

"Select customers only" *wink*. :)


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 10:53:24 1999
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Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>,
	Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
References: <199902170358.TAA02705@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990217093525.04073990@mail.lariat.org>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 17 Feb 1999 19:53:06 +0100
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Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> writes:
> I've run FreeBSD on their x86 servers, so I know they can. The only possible
> issue is lack of token ring support.

It is my understanding that this is being worked on.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 11:55:20 1999
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD at Windows Refund Day
In-Reply-To: <199902161844.LAA20541@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 16, 99 06:44:25 pm"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:54:42 -0500 (EST)
Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
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Terry Lambert said:
> > > Say whatever happen to the Daemon dolls . It would have been 
> > > perfect for the demo --- something for microsoft in their spare
> > > time to squeeze 8)
> >
> > They're still somewhere in production.  I don't know when they'll
> > arrive.
> 
> I was thinking of gutting a "Furby" and turning it into a "BiSDy"...
> I'm waiting for the nxt generation, since they are supposed to have
> better mechanicals.
> 
> I wonder if the Furby people (Tiger Electronics, LTD) would do a
> "BiSDy" production run for us... I'm sure that in 10 years or so,
> a "BiSDy" from a limited production run of a custom "Furby" would
> be worth a hell of a lot of money.
> 
> If you get Tiger to bite on this, put me down for 10 of them or $600
> worth of the things, whichever gets me the larger number (MSRP is $30
> for a standard "Furby").
> 
Put a little light sensor in it, so that if it sees a penguin, it goes
yuck!!! :-).

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 12: 7: 7 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:05:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Brett Taylor <brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
In-Reply-To: <199902171740.KAA15480@usr07.primenet.com>
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Hi,

On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > Brett (Taylor) wrote:

> > And it doesn't say so in this article, but I've read elsewhere that
> > they're doing this on PowerPC based servers.  Not a lot we can do if we
> > don't have a PowerPC port.
> 
> Plenty of us would be happy to do the work, if IBM loaned the hardware
> for a port.  I rather expect NetBSD runs on it already, but if not, it
> would probably be necessary to have access to some documentation,
> though IBM has always been very public with documentation (the IBM
> Technical Reference had a BIOS source listing).

I believe NetBSD has a port - it may be beta as I recall though - haven't
bothered to check their page though.

Brett
******************************************************************
Brett Taylor            brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu
http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/

"Bart, a woman is like a beer.  They look good, they smell good, 
 and you'd step over your own mother just to get one!" 
						Homer Simpson




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 12:23:26 1999
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On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 07:32:31PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> > At 07:18 PM 2/15/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> >  
> > >Be that as it may, I'm glad we "lost" Eric Raymond.  He made a complete 
> > >fool of himself today, as usual.
> > 
> > A USA Today report claims that Eric Raymond attended the Bay Area
> > event dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, and referred to
> > himself repeatedly as a "Linux Theorist."
> 
> 1) He looked more like Yoda, and watching him pulling FreeBSD stickers 
>    off his "costume" was pretty funny.

Especially since he had one of the "Powered by FreeBSD" stickers on the
collar of his robe while giving interviews.  I'm not sure if it was in a
position visible to the cameras though.  Nice job, Mike. :)

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                    "Very funny, Scotty.
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com              Now beam down my clothes."
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 12:33:53 1999
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Date: 17 Feb 1999 21:14:09 +0100
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Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it> wrote:

> First I want to say I don't want generate "holy wars" ... these are only
> personal opinion :-)

And I don't intend to be the penguin's advocate here, although the
remainder of this article may look like it.

> I installed a Red Hat which is considered the flagship of the Linux
> distribution

Depends on whom you ask. Personally, I'd consider Debian the "flagship".
Opinions vary greatly, and as Maddog Hall (Linux advocate at
DEC^H^H^HCompaq) points out: what do three Linux users who each favor a
different distribution finally agree to install? FreeBSD. :-)

Also you should be careful to distinguish the features or shortcomings
of a particular distribution from that of Linux in general. Yes, I
realize that this is not obvious if your experience is limited to a
single distribution.

> in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
> doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).

Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard
partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different
approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. (How do
{Net,Open}BSD/i386 handle this?)

> 1) FreeBSD is easier to install and it install in a more intuitive way.

I'd say both Red Hat and FreeBSD are equally easy/cumbersome to install.
I find the Debian installation superior, but then installation is a one-
time event, so I don't weigh it much when considering the overall
quality of a distribution/operating system.

Last time I installed FreeBSD it was *painfull*. Some ensuing flamage in
de.comp.os.unix.bsd pointed out that the way I expected a beginner
installation to be handled was actually available as "expert" or
"custom" installation, whereas the "novice" installation I had chosen
ran in a way I would only expect for people who had gone through the
process before. Different minds, I guess.

So far the easiest installations I have done/witnessed were Red Hat
Linux and OpenBSD respectively on Sparc IPCs. The PC hardware zoo,
brain-dead BIOS, and parallel installation of several operating systems
is the stuff of nightmares.

> The Linux "innovative" graphical fdisk is, in my opinion, very obscure.

The Red Hat Disk Druid?
The normal cfdisk is a twin of its FreeBSD counterpart.

> 2) The packages selection of Red Hat is a pain. 

Didn't notice. I'm fairly certain you can choose a default set (or maybe
among several default sets) of packages.

> 3) The configuration of a Linux box is quite different from a FreeBSD one,
> but I think ours is far superior even if I can't judge this because I have
> the habit of configuring only FreeBSD boxes.

Important point here: If you are used to working with FreeBSD (Linux),
and then give Linux (FreeBSD) a quick try, you are not likely to compare
both operating systems fairly.

> I like very much the idea to have a single file full of "options" to
> customize the system.

I certainly don't have all the configuration of my BSD box in a single
file. Conversely, SuSE Linux has an rc.conf-style central configuration
file. Lots of differences there between the various Linux distributions.

Recently a rather vocal Linux user in our unix user group mentioned that
he now felt reasonably confident to venture beyond YaST (proprietary
setup and system administration frontend provided with SuSE Linux).
Somebody like this would be horrified if he had to deal from the start
with raw configuration files like under FreeBSD.

> 4) I love the centralized way to stay in sync with cvsup.

You can set up cvsup for Linux, too.

Are you referring to the concept of cvsuping the source and making the
world? Yes, some people like this. Others would be horrified and much
prefer to pull pre-compiled packages from the net. Different
preferences.

> If you, that don't know anything or have only vague ideas about UNIX
> world, arrive in a shop and want a UNIX like operating system you take
> what you find first.

Actually, nowadays people have only vague ideas about Linux, arrive in a
shop, and want the Linux operating system. Unix? Huh? Oh, it's Linux
compatible? Linux has a lot of press, even in the idiot PC rags, and
many users from the Wintel universe who pick up on it have no idea of
the Unix universe at all.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                  naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
    100+ SF Book Reviews: <URL:http://home.pages.de/~naddy/reviews/>



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 13:43:47 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:18:51 MST."
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> At 07:58 PM 2/16/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> > a) Fuck Off.
> 
> This does not seem like it would be a particularly
> productive activity.

It would prevent you impacting on other peoples' productivity.

> > b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).
> 
> And what has IBM said? Apparently, they are approaching SEVERAL
> Linux vendors, including small ones. But there's not a peep
> about FreeBSD.

We can't run on anything other than their NetFinity systems at the 
moment, and we are still trying to complete limited qualification on 
them.  We run OK on about half their range at the moment; the other 
half suffer from the "initialising fxp0 hangs" bug.

> > c) Give us more money, or see a) again.
> 
> For what would more money be used?

Employing one or more developers to extend/fix our code to the point
where we properly supported IBM's hardware, so that we could obtain
qualification and thus move to the next stage.  At the moment, we're
listed as a partially supported but not qaulified software item in their
database - I'm told that this means that if an IBM customer asks a
NetFinity rep about us, he will be able to point them in our direction.

To get to the point where IBM would even be *able* to ship FreeBSD, we 
need to run properly on their hardware.  I've been trying to move the 
remaining issues for some time now.


-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 13:54:10 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:49:42 -0700
To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber),
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From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
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At 09:14 PM 2/17/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
 
>> I installed a Red Hat which is considered the flagship of the Linux
>> distribution
>
>Depends on whom you ask. Personally, I'd consider Debian the "flagship".

Or maybe the "Death Star?" ;-)

>> in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
>> doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).
>
>Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard
>partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different
>approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. (How do
>{Net,Open}BSD/i386 handle this?)

The FreeBSD approach is more like the "Extended DOS Partition" with
"logical drives" within it. The good thing about this is that since
IBM, in its wisdom, only provided for four partitions, you can have
more OSes on the disk.

>Actually, nowadays people have only vague ideas about Linux, arrive in a
>shop, and want the Linux operating system. Unix? Huh? Oh, it's Linux
>compatible? Linux has a lot of press, even in the idiot PC rags, and
>many users from the Wintel universe who pick up on it have no idea of
>the Unix universe at all.

Sad but true. People don't want to learn history; they want appliances
that can be used without thought or training.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 13:54:16 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:53:59 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
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At 01:38 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>We can't run on anything other than their NetFinity systems at the 
>moment, 

That's what they're proposing to put Linux on.

>and we are still trying to complete limited qualification on 
>them.  We run OK on about half their range at the moment; the other 
>half suffer from the "initialising fxp0 hangs" bug.

Could this be due to probing, I wonder? IBM machines tend to have
weird hardware that responds badly to probes. It could be that
other drivers (which could be deactivated) are mucking up the
hardware. This used to happen with OS/2.

>> For what would more money be used?
>
>Employing one or more developers to extend/fix our code to the point
>where we properly supported IBM's hardware, so that we could obtain
>qualification and thus move to the next stage.  

Heck, if they sent me a machine to play with, I'd do that just for
fun.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 14:50:21 1999
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), mike@smith.net.au,
	chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:45:55 GMT."
             <199902171745.KAA15904@usr07.primenet.com> 
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> > > b) I have been working on this since mid-late last year.  See a).
> > 
> > And what has IBM said? Apparently, they are approaching SEVERAL
> > Linux vendors, including small ones. But there's not a peep
> > about FreeBSD.
> > 
> > > c) Give us more money, or see a) again.
> > 
> > For what would more money be used?
> 
> The implication is that this is the mysterious "other platform" that
> Jordan keeps referring to, and that one of the things Mike was hired
> to do was "work on the port".

No.  I have too much on my plate altogether already.

> I think you guys are talking about different things.
> 
> I think that Mike is talking about the port, and Brett is talking
> about selling IBM on FreeBSD.

No, I'm talking about making FreeBSD run on IBM's x86 systems first, so 
that we can then sell them on it.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 15:28:45 1999
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From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> >and we are still trying to complete limited qualification on 
> >them.  We run OK on about half their range at the moment; the other 
> >half suffer from the "initialising fxp0 hangs" bug.
> 
> Could this be due to probing, I wonder? IBM machines tend to have
> weird hardware that responds badly to probes. It could be that
> other drivers (which could be deactivated) are mucking up the
> hardware. This used to happen with OS/2.

No.  You wire the pins from the 82558 to the PCI bus, and that's it.  

> >> For what would more money be used?
> >
> >Employing one or more developers to extend/fix our code to the point
> >where we properly supported IBM's hardware, so that we could obtain
> >qualification and thus move to the next stage.  
> 
> Heck, if they sent me a machine to play with, I'd do that just for
> fun.

Would you commit to producing results?  They offer pretty good leasing
deals, and if you were willing to commit to something, we might be able
to fund the lease.  The other issue is the IBM ServeRAID controller, 
again for which there is a Linux driver but no FreeBSD driver; this 
would need to be written from scratch.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 18:51:39 1999
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Mike Smith wrote:

> > all in all a good way to spend a
> > Monday.
>
> Too cold for me, but certainly worthwhile.  Where were the rest of you
> lazy bastards?

Installing a FreeBSD 2.2.8 firewall on a friend's machine in Arlington, MA.
And let me tell you, it was a bitch, too, for especially a project I normally
can do asleep.    The sort of day where the owner of the machine had bought
the only 100Mb 3COM card that FreeBSD has never heard of ...

--
Drew Derbyshire         UUPC/extended e-mail:  software@kew.com
                                   Telephone:  617-279-9812

"Your arm felt good wrapped around my shoulder
 And I -- I felt I like I belonged
 And I -- I felt I could be someone . . ."      - Tracey Chapman




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 18:57: 7 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902180256.TAA09211@usr06.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 02:56:28 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Feb 17, 99 09:14:09 pm
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> > in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
> > doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).
> 
> Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard
> partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different
> approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. (How do
> {Net,Open}BSD/i386 handle this?)

The same way.  The same way Ultrix, Solaris, SVR3 on an NCR tower,
SVR4, and, basically, every UNIX and clone except Linux, Minix,
and Coherent (from Marc Williams Company) handle it.

Some replace the name "disklabel" with "VTOC" (Volume Table Of Contents),
but basically it's the same way that most UNIX has been doing it
forever.   Anyone with a UNIX background would recognize it instantly.


> You can set up cvsup for Linux, too.
> 
> Are you referring to the concept of cvsuping the source and making the
> world? Yes, some people like this. Others would be horrified and much
> prefer to pull pre-compiled packages from the net. Different
> preferences.

If Linus (God forbid) was standing next to the non-publig server
and was hit by a chunk of "blue ice" falling off a 747, Linux would
have a hell of a hard time recovering to the point that foreward
progress was actually possible, since the set of people who could
regrate the distributions, with the correct modification histories,
including the rationale for decisions that they may want to later
reverse, is vanishingly small.

FWIW, the same can be said of the Apache group and NetBSD.  Probably
OpenBSD as well.

There's a big redundancy advantage in full copies of your source
management archive being outside the radious of one tactical nuke.

For example, if MS were ever really hurting over "Open Source", even
with 10 "MS Nuke 2000"'s they couldn't get rid of FreeBSD (though,
amusingly, they *could* wipe out Novell with one 8-)).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 19: 2: 2 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902180301.UAA09685@usr06.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:01:48 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au,
	chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > I think you guys are talking about different things.
> > 
> > I think that Mike is talking about the port, and Brett is talking
> > about selling IBM on FreeBSD.
> 
> No, I'm talking about making FreeBSD run on IBM's x86 systems first, so 
> that we can then sell them on it.

Ugh.  Anybody have one of these problem machines they are willing
to work with someone to get it fixed?

Someone want to work with anybody with one of these machines to
fix the problems?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 21:22: 6 1999
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From: "Jack Velte" <jackv@earthling.net>
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Subject: IBM + RedHat
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:19:23 -0500
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IBM, Red Hat Deal To Be Finalized
(02/17/99, 8:13 p.m. ET)
By Edward F. Moltzen, Computer Reseller News
IBM will officially announce on Thursday an alliance with Red Hat Software
that will optimize Red Hat's version of Linux to run on IBM hardware
including Netfinities, Intellistations, and ThinkPads.

The deal also calls for joint marketing of Official Red Hat Linux into the
IBM reseller channel on those systems, according to a draft of Thursday's
press release reviewed by Computer Reseller News.

Sources close to the Armonk, N.Y.-based computer giant, said the move
initially will focus on uniprocessor and dual-processor solutions. At the
start of the agreement, IBM is not planning to preload Linux onto hardware
developed by its Personal Systems Group, sources said.

The deal with Red Hat is expected to be the first of IBM's key moves within
the Linux arena. IBM is expected to unveil more of its Linux at the
Linuxworld conference on March 1 in San Jose, Calif.

Among the moves separate from the Red Hat IBM deal is preloading of the
low-cost Linux operating system onto low-end RS/6000s.

Executives at IBM and Red Hat could not be reached for comment.

However, industry sources said that IBM has been intent on offering the same
support for Linux that it does other operating systems from Windows NT to
Novell NDS to OS/2.

The Red Hat deal gives IBM the ability to ensure the version of Linux works
well with its hardware.

Netfinity servers and other boxes out of the IBM Personal Systems Group are
shipped into the reseller channel with "open bays" to have operating systems
preloaded by resellers and integrators. After development work is performed
to tune Red Hat Linux for the IBM systems, IBM could offer standard support
on solutions in the same manner as other platforms, industry sources said.

However, as part of the deal, IBM will provide ThinkPads to Red Hat
developers so that, eventually, the notebooks would run with Linux.

Red Hat also will perform hardware-certification testing and provide
dedicated customer training, according to the preliminary statement reviewed
by CRN.

In addition to Red Hat, IBM has been in talks with LinuxPPC, in Madison,
Wis., and "several other" Linux independent software vendors about other
agreements, said industry sources.







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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 21:36:53 1999
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Subject: IBM to offer Linux with Netfinity computers - NYT
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:34:35 -0500
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IBM to offer Linux with Netfinity computers
New York Times

NEW YORK -- In perhaps the most significant endorsement yet of the little
operating system that could, IBM Corp. will announce Wednesday that
beginning next month it will ship its Netfinity line of network server
computers with the free operating system Linux pre-installed alongside
Microsoft's Windows NT.

Linux is a highly regarded flavor of Unix, a kind of operating system widely
used in powerful business machines that serve as the hub of local computer
networks and Web sites.

But despite its power and stability, Linux has not gained wide acceptance
because corporations have had nowhere to turn for support; it was designed
and built by a loose international coalition of programmers who freely share
its source code and collaborate on its development. Thus, there is no
company that can be held responsible for the product.

IBM will address that drawback by offering customers technical support for
the software through an agreement with a Linux distributor, Red Hat
Software.

The move by IBM comes on the heels of decisions by several other computer
manufacturers -- most notably Hewlett-Packard and Dell Computer -- to sell
machines that run Linux, making it a viable competitor to other flavors of
Unix and, most notably, to Windows NT.

Although some system administrators and programmers within companies have
embraced Linux because of its flexibility and propensity not to crash, the
operating system has rarely been officially sanctioned by management because
of its orphan status.

``This increases the credibility of Linux in organizations,'' said Stacey
Quandt, an analyst with Giga Information Group in Cambridge, Mass. ``A lot
of companies are running Linux on some server in a closet somewhere, but
when IBM comes out and says they're supporting it, it creates a lot more
credibility.''

IBM said customer demand had been growing for Linux, particularly among
Internet service providers and companies that want to take advantage of its
open source code to modify their systems for their own needs.

``If you go back to early PC days, what you typically saw was technically
literate folks using PC's at home and moving them into businesses where it
wasn't a top-down decision,'' said Phil Hester, chief technology officer of
IBM's personal systems group. ``This has a lot of that same feel to it. We
think we need to understand this marketplace and grow with it.''

Hester's division, which is based in Raleigh, N.C., just five miles from Red
Hat's headquarters, has set up a laboratory to test Linux on the Netfinity
servers, as well as on work stations and its Thinkpad line of laptops. In
addition to Linux and Windows NT, the Netfinity servers will continue to be
shipped with IBM's OS/2 operating system.

The deal positions Red Hat, which also supplies Linux to Hewlett-Packard, as
the leading commercial distributor of the operating system, although IBM
left open the possibility that it would also contract with one of Red Hat's
competitors, like Caldera Inc. or SuSe.

Linux, which can be had free on the Internet, has spawned a cottage industry
of distributors that combine its various pieces on a CD-ROM with basic
technical information.

Red Hat, a five-year-old start-up that last year received an equity
investment from the Intel Corp., aims to make money by selling technical
assistance to Linux's growing customer base. Under the agreement with IBM,
customers will have the option of buying Red Hat support directly or through
IBM. The company's existing support contracts range from $1,000 a year for a
single user to $60,000 a year for enterprises, depending on the number of
computers linked to the server.

Microsoft uses a different approach, pricing its support for the Windows NT
Server by ``incident,'' meaning that when a customer has a problem, he gets
Microsoft's help for a specified amount of money. Typically, this is about
$195, with a volume discount for companies that prepay for 10 incidents.
Windows NT itself range in price from about $250 for a single computer to
about $55 per computer when licensed for 25 or more computers.

``Intel's endorsement of Red Hat meant Linux was OK to use,'' said Robert C.
Young, Red Hat's chief executive. But anyone who bought it still took on the
liability for buying hardware not supported for Linux. Now IBM is stepping
up and taking responsibility for the hardware component.''

Still, analysts caution that the bigger hurdle for Linux is a lack of
software that runs on it.

``Applications drive operating system sales,'' said Bill Petersen, research
director for IDC Research. ``The fact that Linux is available on hardware
gives chief information officers the ability to say, `Great, I can get
Linux,' but their next question is, `What can I run on it?' The story only
begins to get interesting when more organizations begin to make their
applications available for it.''




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 23: 1:13 1999
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:06:37 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199902172324.PAA01535@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 03:24 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>> Could this be due to probing, I wonder? IBM machines tend to have
>> weird hardware that responds badly to probes. It could be that
>> other drivers (which could be deactivated) are mucking up the
>> hardware. This used to happen with OS/2.
>
>No.  You wire the pins from the 82558 to the PCI bus, and that's it.  

It's true that with most highly-integrated peripheral controllers
(including the 82558), it's hard to deviate much from the reference
design. But what else is at the port addresses scanned by the various
drivers (not just the fxp driver, but others)? It's possible that
some arcane bit of motherboard hardware is being messed up -- perhaps
by a driver that isn't even finding the peripheral it's looking for.
IBM machines are like that.

>> Heck, if they sent me a machine to play with, I'd do that just for
>> fun.
>
>Would you commit to producing results?  They offer pretty good leasing
>deals, and if you were willing to commit to something, we might be able
>to fund the lease.  The other issue is the IBM ServeRAID controller, 
>again for which there is a Linux driver but no FreeBSD driver; this 
>would need to be written from scratch.

I'd need to learn what was involved in writing a RAID driver, but
if there's existing code that shows how RAID has been mapped into
the SCSI subsystem I can certainly adapt it.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 23: 3:14 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:06:37 MST."
             <4.1.19990217225925.0401f9d0@mail.lariat.org> 
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> At 03:24 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
>  
> >> Could this be due to probing, I wonder? IBM machines tend to have
> >> weird hardware that responds badly to probes. It could be that
> >> other drivers (which could be deactivated) are mucking up the
> >> hardware. This used to happen with OS/2.
> >
> >No.  You wire the pins from the 82558 to the PCI bus, and that's it.  
> 
> It's true that with most highly-integrated peripheral controllers
> (including the 82558), it's hard to deviate much from the reference
> design. But what else is at the port addresses scanned by the various
> drivers (not just the fxp driver, but others)? It's possible that
> some arcane bit of motherboard hardware is being messed up -- perhaps
> by a driver that isn't even finding the peripheral it's looking for.
> IBM machines are like that.

Brett, I take back everything I said about offering you hardware to 
write drivers with.  If you're that far behind the ball with the way 
that PCI works, it wouldn't be even vaguely economical.

Just accept that courtesy of the marvels of modern PnP architectures, 
what you are fretting about is effectively impossible.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 23: 7: 2 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:06:47 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199902180609.WAA03463@dingo.cdrom.com>
References: <Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:06:37 MST."             <4.1.19990217225925.0401f9d0@mail.lariat.org>
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At 10:09 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>Brett, I take back everything I said about offering you hardware to 
>write drivers with.  If you're that far behind the ball with the way 
>that PCI works, it wouldn't be even vaguely economical.

It has nothing to do with PCI. A probe for something else ENTIRELY
could be mucking things up. No, it's not "supposed" to happen, but
it does. Take it from an EE who's designed chips and motherboards:
a VGA driver or a sound card driver can mess up the works in subtle
ways. Heck, you might even find that the machine never hangs when
booted with, say, a serial console and no video card.

>Just accept that courtesy of the marvels of modern PnP architectures, 
>what you are fretting about is effectively impossible.

There's a reason why they call it "Plug 'n Pray." Scans for various
sorts of legacy hardware *can* mess up a motherboard. And IBM's
motherboards are sometimes weird.

This is why one of the first things you should try -- if you haven't
already -- is disabling nonessential, seemingly unrelated drivers in 
the kernel. If you're lucky, you'll find that removing one of them
mysteriously makes the problem go away. If you're not, you'll have 
to check for other problems such as race conditions, etc. I'd have 
to observe the problem occurring, and perhaps single-step the
machine through the problem code while looking at the spec sheet, to 
develop other ideas.

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 23:15: 1 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:06:47 MST."
             <4.1.19990217234718.0401de40@mail.lariat.org> 
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> At 10:09 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
>  
> >Brett, I take back everything I said about offering you hardware to 
> >write drivers with.  If you're that far behind the ball with the way 
> >that PCI works, it wouldn't be even vaguely economical.
> 
> It has nothing to do with PCI. A probe for something else ENTIRELY
> could be mucking things up. 

Uh, no.  Or at least, if it did, the machine would not be on the 
market.  What we do when it comes to probing is an order of magnitude 
less offensive than what Microsoft and Linux do.

> This is why one of the first things you should try -- if you haven't
> already -- is disabling nonessential, seemingly unrelated drivers in 
> the kernel. If you're lucky, you'll find that removing one of them
> mysteriously makes the problem go away. If you're not, you'll have 
> to check for other problems such as race conditions, etc. I'd have 
> to observe the problem occurring, and perhaps single-step the
> machine through the problem code while looking at the spec sheet, to 
> develop other ideas.

Thanks for "hardware newbie 101" Brett, but no, I know what isn't
happening, and what you're thinking of (port mirroring) has already been
dismissed.

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Wed Feb 17 23:42:40 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:37:27 -0700
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You? 
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199902180710.XAA03755@dingo.cdrom.com>
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At 11:10 PM 2/17/99 -0800, Mike Smith wrote:
 
>> It has nothing to do with PCI. A probe for something else ENTIRELY
>> could be mucking things up. 
>
>Uh, no.  Or at least, if it did, the machine would not be on the 
>market.  What we do when it comes to probing is an order of magnitude 
>less offensive than what Microsoft and Linux do.

Yep, but it could be just the wrong thing for that particular
motherboard. I know, for example, that FreeBSD's usual boot
sequence makes the Gateway Solo here in the lab -- a laptop with an
internal PCI bus that's specified as entirely "Plug 'n Play" -- go 
utterly berserk. The laptop's on the market and works fine with
Windows and Linux. There's just something in FreeBSD (I haven't
bothered to figure out what) that causes it to go "Kaboom!"
Probably a combination of quirky motherboard design and bad luck.

>Thanks for "hardware newbie 101" Brett, but no, I know what isn't
>happening, and what you're thinking of (port mirroring) has already been
>dismissed.

It could be much more subtle than that. I don't know the motherboard, so
I don't know what it's doing with interrupts, DMA, onboard peripherals,
etc. Your Ethernet controller could be starved for cycles; interrupts
could be getting lost; the PHY could be weird or could die if there's
no cable plugged in; who knows? Without hardware in front of me, I
can only make educated guesses, but I do tend to make many MORE guesses
than most people. And usually find the problem.

--Brett




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  0:50:38 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:49:10 -0800
From: Gregory Sutter <gsutter@pobox.com>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: "Bryan K. Ogawa" <bkogawa@primenet.com>, mph@pobox.com,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Windows Refund Day Press Reports: Linux, Linux, Linux
Message-ID: <19990218004910.A5367@orcrist.mediacity.com>
References: <Your <199902152352.QAA19305@usr02.primenet.com> <199902160335.TAA14355@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990215205736.03f18100@mail.lariat.org> <19990216094041.A18012@wopr.caltech.edu> <199902170749.XAA10730@foo.primenet.com> <4.1.19990217082603.04010a90@mail.lariat.org>
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On Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 08:26:56AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 11:49 PM 2/16/99 -0800, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote:
>  
> >For those not receiving hardcopy of the Mercury News, the article in
> >question was on the front page of the Mercury News, and the first
> >mention of FreeBSD made the page cutoff; thus, FreeBSD was indeed
> >Front Page News.
> 
> It's great that the Merc came through! Thank Heaven. Other mentions
> of FreeBSD were rare.

Apparently, my interview with a CBS radio reporter was aired.  I didn't
hear it, but when I spoke it, it included several FreeBSD references.
(If anyone happened to tape it, I'm interested in hearing what parts of
it made the radio.  Thanks!)

Greg
-- 
Gregory S. Sutter                     "Software is like sex; it's better
mailto:gsutter@pobox.com               when it's free."  -- Linus Torvalds
http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/
PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  3:48:41 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:47:04 +1100 (EST)
From: gcross@netspace.net.au
Reply-To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Subject: Port upgrade check/report tool
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
are now out-of-date and need upgrading.

So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.

It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.

Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
about it and download the tarball from:

	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 

I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
a wider audience.

Thanks
Graeme

--
Graeme Cross                                      gcross@netspace.net.au

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  5: 0:46 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:59:44 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>,
	Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>,
	Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
Message-ID: <19990218135944.A75263@bitbox.follo.net>
References: <199902170358.TAA02705@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990217093525.04073990@mail.lariat.org> <xzp67909819.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no>
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On Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 07:53:06PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
> Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> writes:
> > I've run FreeBSD on their x86 servers, so I know they can. The only possible
> > issue is lack of token ring support.
> 
> It is my understanding that this is being worked on.

It is my understanding that this is available from
http://anarchy.stdio.com/ and is under review by <name of guilty party
removed> for inclusion in FreeBSD.  Unfortunately, this has been my
understanding for quite a long while.

Big thanks to Larry Lile for putting in the work he has done on this!

Eivind.



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  5:53:40 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:01:33 +0100
To: gcross@netspace.net.au
From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@scotty.masternet.it>
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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At 22.47 18/02/99 +1100, you wrote:
>I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
>then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
>are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
>
>So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
>
I have this one...

#!/bin/sh
#
# File: update-packages
#
# Checks for new packages in the supplied INDEX file to update your
installation
#
# Usage: update-packages INDEX
#

record_update ( )
{
	to_be_installed=`sed -e "$1p" -n ${temp}.pkg_list`
	echo "${i}|${to_be_installed}" >>${temp}.work_list
}

#
# Standard variables
#
progname=`basename $0`
temp=/tmp/${progname}.$$
pkg_dir=/var/db/pkg

#
default=unknown
for i in `ls ${pkg_dir}`
do
	if [ -d ${pkg_dir}/${i} ]
	then
		name=`expr "${i}" : "\(.*\)-.*"`
		version=`expr "${i}" : ".*-\(.*\)"`
		desc=`grep "^${name}-" $1`
		if [ $? -eq 0 ]
		then
			count=0
			echo "${desc}" | while read pkg_desc
			do
				pkg_name=`echo "${pkg_desc}" | cut -f 1 -d "|"`
				new_version=`expr "${pkg_name}" : "${name}-\(.*\)"`
				if expr ${new_version} \> ${version} >/dev/null
				then
					if [ ${count} -eq 0 ]
					then
						echo ""
						echo "Package name        :    ${name}"
						echo "Installed version   :    ${version}"
						echo -n "Available version(s): "
					else
						echo -n "                      "
					fi
					count=$((${count}+1))
					echo "${count}) ${new_version}"
					echo ${count} >${temp}.count
					echo ${pkg_desc} >>${temp}.pkg_list
				fi
			done
			#
			# I loose the contents of "count" here, so recover from file
			#
			if [ -f ${temp}.count ]
			then
				count=`cat ${temp}.count`
				rm ${temp}.count
			fi
			if [ ${count} -ne 0 ]
			then
				case ${default} in
					unknown)
						if [ ${count} -gt 1 ]
						then
							read -p "Do you want to install any of these packages
(1-${count}/No/All/nOne/Quit) ? " reply
						else
							read -p "Do you want to install this package (Yes/No/All/nOne/Quit)
? " reply
							if [ "$reply" = "y" -o "$reply" = "Y" ]
							then
								reply=1
							fi
						fi
						reply=`echo ${reply} | tr "[:upper:]" "[:lower:]"`
						case ${reply} in
							q|quit)
								rm ${temp}.pkg_list
								exit 1
								;;
							""|n|no)
								;;
							a|all)
								record_update 1
								default=all
								;;
							o|none)
								rm ${temp}.pkg_list
								break
								;;
							[0-9]*)
								if [ ${reply} -ge 1 -a ${reply} -le ${count} ]
								then
									record_update ${reply}
								fi
								;;
						esac
						;;
					all)
						record_update 1
						;;
				esac
				rm ${temp}.pkg_list
			fi
		else
			echo ""
			echo "${progname}: warning: ${name} not found in index file"
		fi
	fi
done

echo "Here we are..."
cat ${temp}.work_list
rm ${temp}.work_list


Best Regards,
Gianmarco Giovannelli ,  "Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco  
http://www2.masternet.it 





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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  7:31:47 1999
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subscribe

- 
E=mc^2

student: 1 each       | Ken Keeler
                      | "Look, it's all a bunch of ones and zeros."


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  7:49:19 1999
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	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:49:05 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:49:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
To: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
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On 17 Feb 1999, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it> wrote:

> > in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
> > doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).
> 
> Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard
> partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different
> approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. (How do
> {Net,Open}BSD/i386 handle this?)

I'm curious why you make this claim?  It's no more difficult to understand
than the dos users concept of an extended partition with multiple logical
drives defined within it.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  8:28:11 1999
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To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:47:04 +1100."
             <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> 
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> I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> 
> So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> 
> It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
> fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
> 
> Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
> about it and download the tarball from:
> 
> 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
> 
> I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
> a wider audience.

You could have added it into PIB...

-- 
\\  Sometimes you're ahead,       \\  Mike Smith
\\  sometimes you're behind.      \\  mike@smith.net.au
\\  The race is long, and in the  \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\  end it's only with yourself.  \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  8:31:56 1999
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From: Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
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Could you guys stop with the ego jockeying?  It's embarrassing to watch.
-- 
Christopher Masto        Director of Operations      NetMonger Communications
chris@netmonger.net        info@netmonger.net        http://www.netmonger.net

    "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18  9:20:45 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:20:36 -0800
From: Unfurl <unfurl@dub.net>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
Message-ID: <19990218092036.A41753@dub.net>
References: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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On Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
> I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> 
> So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> 
> It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
> fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
> 
> Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
> about it and download the tarball from:
> 
> 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
> 
> I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
> a wider audience.

Why not just use cvsup?

-Bill


-- 
unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back!
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 10:49:39 1999
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From: Bill Pechter <pechter@pechter.nws.net>
Message-Id: <199902181849.NAA04456@pechter.nws.net>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <199902181552.KAA15641@gatekeeper.itribe.net> from Jamie Bowden at "Feb 18, 1999 10:49: 4 am"
To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:49:08 -0500 (EST)
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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> On 17 Feb 1999, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> 
> > Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@giovannelli.it> wrote:
> 
> > > in an empty partition (and it get two , damn it because it
> > > doens't know that partitions can be sub-divided in slice for swap i.e.).
> > 
> > Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard
> > partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different
> > approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. (How do
> > {Net,Open}BSD/i386 handle this?)
> 
> I'm curious why you make this claim?  It's no more difficult to understand
> than the dos users concept of an extended partition with multiple logical
> drives defined within it.
> 
> Jamie Bowden

The difficulty is that Linux can be installed and run completely
out of EXTENDED Partitions (with no primary) and we can't (at least
couldn't in 2.x or 1.x).

DRAWBACK!!!

This means if there's Win95 and WinNT and OS/2 and an extended partiton
we CAN'T be installed, where Red Hat can. (Since there are bootloaders
that can be used to boot from an extended partition.)

This actually happened to me and forced me to reconfigure and and
another disk.

Bill
---
  Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a 
  villain in a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller 
  bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 10:56:54 1999
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From: "Dan Langille" <junkmale@xtra.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
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References: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>; from gcross@netspace.net.au on Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100
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On 18 Feb 99, at 9:20, Unfurl wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
> > I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> > then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> > are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> > 
> > So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> > 
> > It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
> > fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
> > 
> > Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
> > about it and download the tarball from:
> > 
> > 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
> > 
> > I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
> > a wider audience.
> 
> Why not just use cvsup?

Will cvsup tell you what needs to be updated without downloading them?  I 
thought that's what the above will do.

--
Dan Langille
The FreeBSD Diary
http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 11:48: 3 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:47:41 -0700
To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden)
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:49 PM 2/18/99 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote:

>The difficulty is that Linux can be installed and run completely
>out of EXTENDED Partitions (with no primary) and we can't (at least
>couldn't in 2.x or 1.x).
>
>DRAWBACK!!!

Actually, with System Commander you can boot out of a "logical
drive" in an extended partition.

This may be another motivation for cleaning up the way logical drives
inside extended partitions are numbered. I'm not a FreeBSD file system
expert, and I think several of them would need to be modified to fix
the numbering so that there was a way to say "the third logical drive
in extended partition N." Right now, there really isn't due to the
vagaries of the numbering scheme.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 11:50:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:50:39 -0700
To: Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
In-Reply-To: <19990218113151.A9451@netmonger.net>
References: <199902180710.XAA03755@dingo.cdrom.com>
 <4.1.19990217234718.0401de40@mail.lariat.org>
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No "ego" here -- I don't have anything to prove, and if my offer
of time and sweat really isn't welcome, I'll just go away. But
that would be a shame.... FreeBSD really needs to become an option 
on those IBM machines.

--Brett

At 11:31 AM 2/18/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote:
 
>Could you guys stop with the ego jockeying?  It's embarrassing to watch.
>-- 
>Christopher Masto        Director of Operations      NetMonger Communications
>chris@netmonger.net        info@netmonger.net        http://www.netmonger.net
>
>    "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 11:54:22 1999
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To: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@scotty.masternet.it>,
	gcross@netspace.net.au
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 03:01 PM 2/18/99 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote:
 
>At 22.47 18/02/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
>>then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
>>are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
>>
>>So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.

What do you do if the ports for that version have vanished? I have
one 2.2.7 machine; when it looks for ports for 2.2.7, it says
it can't find them anymore.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 12: 3:24 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902182001.NAA06456@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:01:17 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902180609.WAA03463@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Feb 17, 99 10:09:49 pm
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> > It's true that with most highly-integrated peripheral controllers
> > (including the 82558), it's hard to deviate much from the reference
> > design. But what else is at the port addresses scanned by the various
> > drivers (not just the fxp driver, but others)? It's possible that
> > some arcane bit of motherboard hardware is being messed up -- perhaps
> > by a driver that isn't even finding the peripheral it's looking for.
> > IBM machines are like that.
> 
> Brett, I take back everything I said about offering you hardware to 
> write drivers with.  If you're that far behind the ball with the way 
> that PCI works, it wouldn't be even vaguely economical.
> 
> Just accept that courtesy of the marvels of modern PnP architectures, 
> what you are fretting about is effectively impossible.

Does this mean we can change the LANCE ISA probe order back?

It seems to me that an ISA probe could be doing the deed.

Alternately, hasn't the driver been updated since it was last
snapshot?  I remember seeing something fly past, but I have little
interest in the fxp stuff, so I didn't save it.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 12: 7:23 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902182006.NAA06716@usr02.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:06:23 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902180710.XAA03755@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Feb 17, 99 11:10:11 pm
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> > >Brett, I take back everything I said about offering you hardware to 
> > >write drivers with.  If you're that far behind the ball with the way 
> > >that PCI works, it wouldn't be even vaguely economical.
> > 
> > It has nothing to do with PCI. A probe for something else ENTIRELY
> > could be mucking things up. 
> 
> Uh, no.  Or at least, if it did, the machine would not be on the 
> market.  What we do when it comes to probing is an order of magnitude 
> less offensive than what Microsoft and Linux do.

Heh.

Microsoft probes to the point of you needing to reboot and logs the
fact that the probe locked the system up, and says "I think I won't
poke there next time".

I have seen a number of IBM boxes that locked hard 4 times during a
Windows 95 install.

I liken the Linux probe stuff to the PAO stuff: do whatever you
have to do to make it work.

FreeBSD has similar areas, even if people don't like to point a
flashlight at them very often (or look when someone else points
one).  The VFS integration is one.  The Mach32/serial driver
probe interaction is another.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 12:58:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:58:08 +0200
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
Message-ID: <19990218225807.C63286@shale.csir.co.za>
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Well FreeBSD might not have cracked the nod in the mainstream press, but
this article mentions us a lot:

   http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=36ca97df-06acf840

Now Mike's already admitted to the stickers... *nudge*, *nudge*, *wink*,
*wink*. :)

Seems like a good time was had by all.

 -Jeremy

-- 
  |   "Come home my prodigal son, come home and lets be one,
--+--  don't want to see you cry, don't make me tell you why,
  |    you've lived in a house with me, my blood has set you free,
  |    in the world you'll surely die, nothing else will satisfy." -MIC


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 13: 6: 0 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:09:32 +0100
To: Unfurl <unfurl@dub.net>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Gianmarco Giovannelli <gmarco@scotty.masternet.it>
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <19990218092036.A41753@dub.net>
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 <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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> Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
>> about it and download the tarball from:
>> 
>> 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
>> 
>> I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
>> a wider audience.
>
>Why not just use cvsup?

How ?



Best Regards,
Gianmarco Giovannelli ,  "Unix expert since yesterday"
http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco  
http://www2.masternet.it 





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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 13: 9:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:07:44 +1100 (EST)
From: gcross@netspace.net.au
Reply-To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
To: brett@lariat.org
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 18 Feb, Brett Glass wrote:
> At 03:01 PM 2/18/99 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote:
>  
>>At 22.47 18/02/99 +1100, you wrote:
>>>I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
>>>then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
>>>are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
>>>
>>>So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> 
> What do you do if the ports for that version have vanished? I have
> one 2.2.7 machine; when it looks for ports for 2.2.7, it says
> it can't find them anymore.

Brett, is this a problem with my script (eg. it is failing to find an
INDEX file) or are you making a more general statement about the moving
nature of available ports & packages for FreeBSD?

Cheers
Graeme

--
Graeme Cross                                      gcross@netspace.net.au



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 13:11:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:09:44 +1100 (EST)
From: gcross@netspace.net.au
Reply-To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
To: unfurl@dub.net
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
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On 18 Feb, Unfurl wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
>> I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
>> then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
>> are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
>> 
>> So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
>> 
>> It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
>> fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
>> 

> Why not just use cvsup?

1. AFAIK, cvsup only upgrades, it doesn't advise

2. Not everyone can or does use cvsup

Cheers
Graeme

--
Graeme Cross                                      gcross@netspace.net.au



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 13:39:36 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:39:24 -0800
From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@mooseriver.com>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: We get a mention in "The Economist"
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The Economist has noticed that Yahoo runs on FreeBSD.

http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/current/index_wb9834.html


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 3.0
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 14: 8:55 1999
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From: Matt Meola <mmeola@uswest.com>
To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool 
In-Reply-To: <19990218185752.EAVE3226200.mta2-rme@wocker> 
References: <19990218185752.EAVE3226200.mta2-rme@wocker> 
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> On 18 Feb 99, at 9:20, Unfurl wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
> > > I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> > > then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> > > are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> > > 
> > > So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> > > 
> > > It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
> > > fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
> > > 
> > > Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
> > > about it and download the tarball from:
> > > 
> > > 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
> > > 
> > > I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
> > > a wider audience.
> > 
> > Why not just use cvsup?
> 
> Will cvsup tell you what needs to be updated without downloading them?  I 
> thought that's what the above will do.

Nope, cvsup just updates the source.

Well, it seems that we've been going in parallel paths; I've written a 
Python script to do essentially the same thing, 'cept that it will go 
ahead and build/install the necessary ports as well.

The only thing is, making a port will install over an older version, 
yet the pkg stuff for the old version remains in /var/db/pkg/.  So, is 
it proper to do a "make deinstall" before the "make all install"?


-- 
Matt Meola (matt.meola@usa.net)  KC0DXW
Bailey, Colorado
"Gun control means using two hands."




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 14:40: 5 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:42:30 -0700
To: gcross@netspace.net.au
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902182111.IAA13073@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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At 08:07 AM 2/19/99 +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
 
>Brett, is this a problem with my script (eg. it is failing to find an
>INDEX file) or are you making a more general statement about the moving
>nature of available ports & packages for FreeBSD?

It's a general problem. After one version comes out, the ports for older
ones aren't available via FTP anymore. They should probably do something
via symlinks unless there's a reason why the ports won't work on an older
version.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15: 8:28 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:07:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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I think mergemaster has a contender for coolest system tool.

Way to go.

You might want to make it find installed ports that are not in the index
file (ports that have been renamed or deleted).

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:

> I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> 
> So, I have written a Python program that will do just that.
> 
> It will work with either a local copy of a current ports INDEX file, or
> fetch one (via ftp or http) from a FreeBSD site.
> 
> Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read
> about it and download the tarball from:
> 
> 	http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html 
> 
> I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to
> a wider audience.
> 
> Thanks
> Graeme
> 
> --
> Graeme Cross                                      gcross@netspace.net.au
> 

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS |
| winter@jurai.net |      This Space For Rent     | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax  |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage?   |



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:30:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:53:25 +0000
From: Nik Clayton <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk>
To: Matt Meola <mmeola@uswest.com>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
Message-ID: <19990218225325.A28239@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>
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--1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> > > On Thu, Feb 18, 1999 at 10:47:04PM +1100, gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
> > > > I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> > > > then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> > > > are now out-of-date and need upgrading.

ports/sysutils/pkg_version does the thing.

If you apply the attached patch (which has been sent to the author) you
get a new "-c" flag which prints out the commands you need to run to update
the applications that are out of date.

N
-- 
                    Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole

--1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pkg_version.diff"

--- pkg_version.org	Sat Jan  2 12:18:40 1999
+++ pkg_version	Sat Jan  2 13:27:03 1999
@@ -43,8 +43,10 @@
 
 #$indexFile = "ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports-current/INDEX";
 $IndexFile = 'file:/usr/ports/INDEX';
+$ShowCommandsFlag = 0;
 $DebugFlag = 0;
 $VerboseFlag = 0;
+$CommentChar = "#";
 
 #
 # CompareVersions
@@ -89,49 +91,23 @@
 }
 
 #
-# GetName
+# GetNameAndVersion
 #
-# Try to get the "name" of a package, which is basically everything before
-# what we think is its version number.
+# Get the name and version number of a package. Returns a two element
+# array, first element is name, second element is version number.
 #
-sub GetName {
+sub GetNameAndVersion {
     local($string);
     $string = $_[0];
 
-    # If no hyphens, we assume the whole thing is the name.
-    if ($string !~ m/-/) {
-	return $string;
-    }
-    else {
-	# Truncate the string until we've eaten exactly one hyphen.
-	# What's left at the start of the string is the package name.
-	while ((chop $string) ne '-') { }
-	return $string;
-    }
-}
+    # If no hyphens then no version number
+    return ($string, "") if $string !~ /-/;
 
-#
-# GetVersion
-#
-# Try to get the version number of a package.
-#
-sub GetVersion {
-    local($string);
-    $string = $_[0];
-
-    # If no hyphens, assume no version number
-    if ($string !~ m/-/) {
-	return "";
-    }
-    else {
-	# Gobble the string from the start until we've eaten all
-	# of the hyphens.  What's left at the end of the string is
-	# the version number.
-	while ($string =~ m/-/) {
-	    $string =~ s/.*-//;
-	}
-	return $string;
-    }
+    # Match (and group) everything in between two hyphens. Because the
+    # regexp is 'greedy', the first .* will try and match everything up
+    # to (but not including) the last hyphen
+    $string =~ /(.*)-(.*)/;
+    return ($1, $2);
 }
 
 #
@@ -144,7 +120,8 @@
 pkg_version $Version
 Bruce A. Mah <bmah\@ca.sandia.gov>
 
-Usage: pkg_version [-d debug] [-h] [-v] [index]
+Usage: pkg_version [-c] [-d debug] [-h] [-v] [index]
+-c              Show commands to update installed packages
 -d debug	Debugging output (debug controls level of output)
 -h		Help (this message)
 -v		Verbose output
@@ -156,10 +133,13 @@
 #
 # Parse command-line arguments, deal with them
 #
-if (!getopts('dhv') || ($opt_h)) {
+if (!getopts('cdhv') || ($opt_h)) {
     &PrintHelp();
     exit;
 }
+if ($opt_c) {
+    $ShowCommandsFlag = $opt_c;
+}
 if ($opt_d) {
     $DebugFlag = $opt_d;
 }
@@ -194,8 +174,7 @@
 open CURRENT, "$CurrentPackagesCommand|";
 while (<CURRENT>) {
     ($packageString, $rest) = split;
-    $packageName = &GetName($packageString);
-    $packageVersion = &GetVersion($packageString);
+    ($packageName, $packageVersion) = &GetNameAndVersion($packageString);
     $currentPackages{$packageName}{'name'} = $packageName;
     if (defined $currentPackages{$packageName}{'version'}) {
 	$currentPackages{$packageName}{'version'} .= "," . $packageVersion;
@@ -213,10 +192,10 @@
 
 open INDEX, "$IndexPackagesCommand|";
 while (<INDEX>) {
-    ($packageString, $rest) = split(/\|/);
-    $packageName = &GetName($packageString);
-    $packageVersion = &GetVersion($packageString);
+    ($packageString, $packagePath, $rest) = split(/\|/);
+    ($packageName, $packageVersion) = &GetNameAndVersion($packageString);
     $indexPackages{$packageName}{'name'} = $packageName;
+    $indexPackages{$packageName}{'path'} = $packagePath;
     if (defined $indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'}) {
 	$indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'} .= "," . $packageVersion;
     }
@@ -231,13 +210,10 @@
 # Produce reports
 #
 foreach $packageName (sort keys %currentPackages) {
+    $~ = "STDOUT_VERBOSE"  if $VerboseFlag;
+    $~ = "STDOUT_COMMANDS" if $ShowCommandsFlag;
 
-    if ($VerboseFlag) {
-	printf "%-20s ", "$packageName-$currentPackages{$packageName}{'version'}";
-    }
-    else {
-	printf "%-20s ", "$packageName";
-    }
+    $packageNameVer = "$packageName-$currentPackages{$packageName}{'version'}";
 
     if (defined $indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'}) {
 
@@ -247,53 +223,82 @@
 	$indexRefcount = $indexPackages{$packageName}{'refcount'};
 	$currentRefcount = $currentPackages{$packageName}{'refcount'};
 
+	$packagePath = $indexPackages{$packageName}{'path'};
+	
 	if (($indexRefcount > 1) || ($currentRefcount > 1)) {
-	    print "?";
-	    if ($VerboseFlag) {
-		printf " multiple versions (index has %s)", 
-		"$indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'}";
-	    }
+	    $versionCode = "?";
+	    $Comment = "multiple versions (index has $indexVersion)";
 	}
 	else {
 
 	    $rc = &CompareVersions($currentVersion, $indexVersion);
-
+	    
 	    if ($rc == 0) {
-		print "=";
-		if ($VerboseFlag) {
-		    print " up-to-date";
-		}
+		next if $ShowCommandsFlag;
+		$versionCode = "=";
+		$Comment = "up-to-date";
 	    }
 	    elsif ($rc < 0) {
-		print "<";
-		if ($VerboseFlag) {
-		    printf " needs updating (index has %s)", 
-		    "$indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'}";
-		}
+		$versionCode = "<";
+		$Comment = "needs updating (index has $indexVersion)"
 	    }
 	    elsif ($rc > 0) {
-		print ">";
-		if ($VerboseFlag) {
-		    printf " succeeds index (index has %s)",
-		    "$indexPackages{$packageName}{'version'}";
-		}
+		next if $ShowCommandsFlag;
+		$versionCode = ">";
+		$Comment = "succeeds index (index has $indexVersion)";
 	    }
 	    else {
-		print "?";
-		if ($VerboseFlag) {
-		    printf " Comparison failed.";
-		}
+		$versionCode = "?";
+		$Comment = "Comparison failed";
 	    }
 	}
     }
     else {
-	printf "?";
-	if ($VerboseFlag) {
-	    printf " unknown in index";
-	}
+	$versionCode = "?";
+	$Comment = "unknown in index";
     }
 
-    print "\n";
-
+    write;
 }
 
+exit 0;
+
+#
+# Formats
+#
+# $CommentChar is in the formats because you can't put a literal '#' in
+# a format specification
+
+# General report (no output flags)
+format STDOUT =
+@<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  @<
+$packageName,              $versionCode
+.
+  ;
+
+# Verbose report (-v flag)
+format STDOUT_VERBOSE =
+@<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  @<  @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+$packageNameVer,           $versionCode, $Comment
+.
+  ;
+
+# Report that includes commands to update program (-c flag)
+format STDOUT_COMMANDS =
+@<
+$CommentChar  
+@< @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+$CommentChar, $packageName
+@< @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+$CommentChar, $Comment  
+@<
+$CommentChar
+cd @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+$packagePath
+make
+pkg_delete -f @<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
+              $packageNameVer
+make install
+
+.
+  ;

--1yeeQ81UyVL57Vl7--


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:31:30 1999
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From: Kris Kennaway <kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg
To: gcross@netspace.net.au
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au>
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:

> I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> are now out-of-date and need upgrading.

/usr/ports/sysutils/pkg_version

Does yours have any extra features?

Kris

-----
(ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its 
productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter
of 1901.

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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:35:27 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Date: 18 Feb 1999 21:20:56 +0100
Message-ID: <7ahsn8$ov0$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
References: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <4.1.19990217144340.040145d0@mail.lariat.org>
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Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> wrote:

> The FreeBSD approach is more like the "Extended DOS Partition" with
> "logical drives" within it.

Yes, but it isn't extended partitions, which are apparently supported
across various operating systems. FreeBSD does its own thing there, and
from the point of view of a typical PC user, with or without Linux
experience, FreeBSD is *gratuitously* different.

(Personally, I use dedicated mode anyway.)

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                  naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
    carpe librum: books 'n' reviews <URL:http://www.carpe.com/buch/>



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:37:26 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:39:37 +1100 (EST)
From: Graeme Cross <gcross@netspace.net.au>
X-Sender: gcross@torrent
To: Kris Kennaway <kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9902190958150.8070-101000@bragg>
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On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 gcross@netspace.net.au wrote:
> 
> > I haven't found a tool that will look at the current ports index file,
> > then look at the ports installed on my system and tell me which ports
> > are now out-of-date and need upgrading.
> 
> /usr/ports/sysutils/pkg_version
> 
> Does yours have any extra features?

Hmmmm - wasn't aware of either PIB or pkg_version, but am now.
From a quick peruse of the source, pkg_version is very similar in
function.

Cheers
Graeme

--
Graeme Cross
gcross@netspace.net.au  




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:41:19 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:42:41 +1100 (EST)
From: Graeme Cross <gcross@netspace.net.au>
X-Sender: gcross@torrent
To: Matt Meola <mmeola@uswest.com>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool 
In-Reply-To: <199902182208.PAA09529@ima2wk6.ima2>
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Matt Meola wrote:

> Well, it seems that we've been going in parallel paths; I've written a 
> Python script to do essentially the same thing, 'cept that it will go 
> ahead and build/install the necessary ports as well.
> 
> The only thing is, making a port will install over an older version, 
> yet the pkg stuff for the old version remains in /var/db/pkg/.  So, is 
> it proper to do a "make deinstall" before the "make all install"?

How will that cope with ports that are installed and rely on the port you
are about to "make deinstall"?

Cheers
Greame

--
Graeme Cross
gcross@netspace.net.au  




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:45:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:47:29 +1100 (EST)
From: Graeme Cross <gcross@netspace.net.au>
X-Sender: gcross@torrent
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.02.9902181806470.15262-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:

> You might want to make it find installed ports that are not in the index
> file (ports that have been renamed or deleted).

Yes - that is trivial to add and could be of use.

How often are ports removed from the official ports archive, and for what
sorts of reasons? 

Cheers
Graeme

--
Graeme Cross
gcross@netspace.net.au  




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:48:16 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:18:08 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
References: <19990218225807.C63286@shale.csir.co.za>
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WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog
Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
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On Thursday, 18 February 1999 at 22:58:08 +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote:
> Well FreeBSD might not have cracked the nod in the mainstream press, but
> this article mentions us a lot:
>
>    http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=36ca97df-06acf840
>
> Now Mike's already admitted to the stickers... *nudge*, *nudge*, *wink*,
> *wink*. :)
>
> Seems like a good time was had by all.

Does anybody else get this page with black text on a black background?

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:54:12 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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	Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:53:48 -0500 (EST)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:53:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Graeme Cross <gcross@netspace.net.au>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.02.9902191043150.24129-100000@torrent>
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On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Graeme Cross wrote:
> Yes - that is trivial to add and could be of use.
> 
> How often are ports removed from the official ports archive, and for what
> sorts of reasons? 

Fairly often it seems.  Usually its a repository copy.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS |
| winter@jurai.net |      This Space For Rent     | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax  |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage?   |



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:54:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:53:50 -0700
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>,
	chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
In-Reply-To: <19990219101808.Z14890@lemis.com>
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 <19990218225807.C63286@shale.csir.co.za>
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At 10:18 AM 2/19/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
 
>Does anybody else get this page with black text on a black background?

You probably have Netscape set to override the page colors.

--Brett Goass


"When you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy 
is to dismount. But lawyers have other strategies, including buying 
a stronger whip, changing riders ... declaring that the horse is 
better, faster and cheaper dead, and, finally, harnessing several 
dead horses together for increased speed." 

Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, quoted in The Wall Street Journal


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 15:56: 6 1999
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Subject: Re: Walnut Creek, Where Are You?
To: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:55:37 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, brett@lariat.org, asmodai@wxs.nl,
	mike@smith.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990218135944.A75263@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Feb 18, 99 01:59:44 pm
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> > > I've run FreeBSD on their x86 servers, so I know they can. The only
> > > possible issue is lack of token ring support.
> > 
> > It is my understanding that this is being worked on.
> 
> It is my understanding that this is available from
> http://anarchy.stdio.com/ and is under review by <name of guilty party
> removed> for inclusion in FreeBSD.  Unfortunately, this has been my
> understanding for quite a long while.
> 
> Big thanks to Larry Lile for putting in the work he has done on this!

Actually, this reminds me.

There is a NetBEUI implementation for FreeBSD; it was done by MITRE.

Has anyone with an official standing (e.g. Jordan) contacted them
about rolling it into FreeBSD proper?

There are a hell of a lot of POS systems that are DOS based and
depend on SMB over NetBEUI.  McDonalds, for instance.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 16:54:39 1999
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To: Matt Meola <mmeola@uswest.com>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool
References: <19990218185752.EAVE3226200.mta2-rme@wocker> <199902182208.PAA09529@ima2wk6.ima2>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 19 Feb 1999 01:54:10 +0100
In-Reply-To: Matt Meola's message of "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:08:26 -0700"
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Matt Meola <mmeola@uswest.com> writes:
> The only thing is, making a port will install over an older version, 
> yet the pkg stuff for the old version remains in /var/db/pkg/.  So, is 
> it proper to do a "make deinstall" before the "make all install"?

To minimize breakage,

 a) do this in single-user mode (or with all users kicked off)
 b) make all
 c) remove the old version
 d) make install
 e) make clean

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 17: 9: 2 1999
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On 18-Feb-99 Matt Meola wrote:
>  The only thing is, making a port will install over an older version, 
>  yet the pkg stuff for the old version remains in /var/db/pkg/.  So, is 
>  it proper to do a "make deinstall" before the "make all install"?
Its a good idea.. Otherwise you can't properly remove the old port :)
This means you don't get your system cluttered with fluff from old ports.

It must be said that you don't always want to do it this way though..
eg GTK et al..

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 19:58:50 1999
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To: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
References: <19990218225807.C63286@shale.csir.co.za>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 19 Feb 1999 04:57:02 +0100
In-Reply-To: Jeremy Lea's message of "Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:58:08 +0200"
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Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za> writes:
> Well FreeBSD might not have cracked the nod in the mainstream press, but
> this article mentions us a lot:
> 
>    http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=36ca97df-06acf840

Ah, Mae Ling Mak, the hacker girl who wrote this very unappetizing
story about Richard Stallman:

     http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=367b074c-060b7ba0

Funny thing (re. what Mae Ling writes about RMS scratching himself) is
that when he was in Oslo, somebody in the audience said something to
the effect that he'd never shake RMS's hand after seeing where it'd
been - apparently RMS spent most of the evening scratching his butt. I
wouldn't know, I was taking advantage of the unusually quiet and
underpopulated lab to get some work done.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 21:49:48 1999
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From: "Jack Velte" <jackv@earthling.net>
To: <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: Upstart challenger to Microsoft's operating software gains serious momentum
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:46:29 -0500
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AP News Service
NEW YORK (AP) _ Burlington Coat Factory could have chosen new  Windows-based
computers for its 250 discount clothing stores this  year. Instead, the
chain plans to buy 1,300 machines running the  Linux operating system, an
upstart challenger to Microsoft's more  established Windows NT software
program.

The move underscores the fast-growing popularity of the Linux  system, a
respected version of the Unix operating software widely  used in powerful
business computers that run local networks of  machines or Web sites.

Linux may sound more like a ``Peanuts'' cartoon character than a  serious
operating system for business computers. But surging demand  for the
inexpensive software may pose an important new threat to  Microsoft Corp.,
the dominant computer software maker.

Giving Linux an important endorsement on Thursday, International  Business
Machines Corp. announced plans to start selling business  computers that
come pre-loaded with Linux. The rollout comes after  similar moves by Compaq
Computer Corp., Dell Computer Corp.,  Hewlett-Packard Co. and Silicon
Graphics Inc.

Linux comprised about 17 percent of the software shipped for  running
business machines last year, up from 7 percent in 1997,  says International
Data Corp., a high-tech research firm.

``Linux has come out of almost nowhere and quickly become the  darling of
certain elements of the programming community,'' said  Tim Bajarin,
president of the Creative Strategies Inc. consulting  firm, based in
Campbell, Calif.

However, it remains to be seen if Linux can break out of its  status as a
niche product and spurs mass demand among customers.

Users rave about Linux's positive attributes, such as its  tendency not to
crash and its flexibility. Developed in the early  1990s by a Finnish
student named Linus Torvalds, Linux can be  downloaded for free off the
Internet, or bought in commercial  versions from distributors such as Red
Hat Software for as little  as $50. And unlike Microsoft's software
blueprints, Linux's source  code is shared over the Web, which makes it easy
for programmers to  blend in improvements.

As a result, a small cottage industry of developers around the  globe has
sprung up. But there still are relatively few software  applications that
run on the Linux system, particularly compared to  Windows-compatible
programs.

While systems administrators and programmers at companies  increasingly are
embracing Linux, many corporate managers are  heavily committed to Microsoft
through growing investments in  Windows for desktop computers and Windows NT
for business machines.

``The momentum for Windows and Windows NT is extremely strong,''  Bajarin
said. ``Microsoft is not going to give up any territory  without a major
competitive fight.''

Still, demand for Linux is growing.

At Bristol Hotels & Resorts, a Dallas-based chain of 120 hotels,  developers
use about half-a-dozen Linux computers to design  Internet software that
will perform such tasks as letting hotel  guests make reservations online.
The company hopes to vastly  increase its use of Linux as the Internet
becomes more important to  its business.

``I'm very, very hopeful that the user community in the world  will
recognize this as an alternative and choose to embrace it,''  said Joshua
Norrid, director of application development at Bristol,  which uses about
4,000 computers.

Whether Microsoft faces strong competition has become an  important issue in
its unfolding antitrust trial in Washington,  which accuses Microsoft of
unfairly squelching rivals.

Microsoft, through a spokesman, was quick to reiterate its  contention that
rivals to its business are alive and well.

``Certainly, it's a competitive threat,'' Microsoft spokesman  Adam Sohn
said of Linux. ``We are happy to compete head-to-head  with Linux on the
merits of the technology and the business  model.''




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From owner-freebsd-chat  Thu Feb 18 23:21:17 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:17:24 -0700
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8)
Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
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At 11:02 PM 2/12/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
 
>If anything, the lack of a requirement to assign license to "The
>FreeBSD Project, Inc." or some other single entity, and the
>number of unassigned incorporated programs is what makes the
>list so large, were you to trigger the advertising clause.

True. But on the other hand, the FSF asks that all copyrights
be assigned to it, and look what happens: the software becomes
part of the GNU Blob.

--Brett

"When you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy 
is to dismount. But lawyers have other strategies, including buying 
a stronger whip, changing riders ... declaring that the horse is 
better, faster and cheaper dead, and, finally, harnessing several 
dead horses together for increased speed." 

Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, quoted in The Wall Street Journal


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19  7:48: 0 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:47:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
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On 19 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:

> Ah, Mae Ling Mak, the hacker girl who wrote this very unappetizing
> story about Richard Stallman:
> 
>      http://www.segfault.org/story.phtml?mode=2&id=367b074c-060b7ba0
> 
> Funny thing (re. what Mae Ling writes about RMS scratching himself) is
> that when he was in Oslo, somebody in the audience said something to
> the effect that he'd never shake RMS's hand after seeing where it'd
> been - apparently RMS spent most of the evening scratching his butt. I
> wouldn't know, I was taking advantage of the unusually quiet and
> underpopulated lab to get some work done.

So basically, RMS is the stereotypical geek, with odious personal habits,
and absolutely no people skills.  Why am I suddenly glad he distances
himself from anything non gnu.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19  9:16:13 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:10:52 -0600
From: Nathan Ahlstrom <nrahlstr@winternet.com>
To: "Michael C. Vergallen" <mvergall@mail.double-barrel.be>,
	"Michael V. Harding" <mvh@ix.netcom.com>
Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Donations to the FreeBSD project [Was: Re: 3.1R ISO CD Image ??]
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[Moving this discussion to freebsd-chat.]

Making a donation is a great idea.  You can do that a number of ways.
Contact Walnut Creek via any of the ways below and tell them that you would
like to donate money to the FreeBSD project.

Note:  I could not find a web page for making a donation?

Thanks!

Nathan

Ordering information from http://www.cdrom.com/info/order.htm

                        Phone 
                               (800) 786.9907
                               (925) 674.0783
                               (Open 06:00-18:00 PST Monday-Friday) 

                        Fax 
                               (925) 674.0821 

                        Email 
                               orders@cdrom.com 

                    	Postal Mail 
                               Walnut Creek CDROM
                               4041 Pike Lane, Suite F
                               Concord, CA 94520-1207
                               U.S.A. 




"Michael C. Vergallen" <mvergall@mail.double-barrel.be> wrote:
> Hi,
> I do think your idea is good, I use FreeBSD here at the office and I 
> wouldn't mind donating some money to the project ( 100 to 150 USD) for 
> me this is 30 USD for each machine. I don't purchase cdroms by principle
> because ones you have installed your systems it is useless..( I have a box
> full off obselete cdroms, witch only polute the environment if I throw
> them out I have to pay for the disposal here because they are considered 
> corporate waste... go figure). So I only use cvs to upgrade. I would
> however have no problems donating to the project on a yearly basis as
> long as I recieve a invoice to keep my accountants happy ( they are a
> bunch off blood sucking creatures..but I like to keep them sweet).
> 
> Regards,
>  
> Michael C. Vergallen 
> ---
> Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, 
> Sportstraat 28			http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/
> B 9000 Gent			ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/
> Belgium				tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976
> 			
> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Michael V. Harding wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I was a long-time subscriber, but had to drop out when the upgrades
> > started flying - I do a source code upgrade, and 2 releases a year was
> > OK, but I think I was getting 4 releases a year which was a bit steep.
> > Is there any way I can subscribe as a contributor, or as a donation -
> > support FreeBSD regularly w/o buying the media?  I wouldn't have a
> > problem kicking in, say, $50/yr.  Also, I have used FreeBSD at work -
> > I don't think that there would be a problem with having a 'support' or
> > maintenance fee per box, if it could be dialed to the appropriate
> > amount.
> > 
> > - Mike Harding
> > 
> >    Cc: Tommy Hallgren <thallgren@yahoo.com>, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG
> >    Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:29:00 -0800
> >    From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
> >    Sender: owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG
> >    X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG
> >    Precedence: bulk
> >    X-RULES: lists
> > 
> >    > True.  Seems like the last one was mirrored to other FreeBSD dist sites
> >    > though (thank goodness!  As is wellknown, access to ftp.cdrom.com out here
> > 
> >    If it was, I didn't know of any.  I specifically stuck it in incoming/
> >    so that I wouldn't get shot by mirror sites wondering where 2.4GB of
> >    extra space suddenly went.
> > 
> >    > I wonder if WalnutCreek might consider a "FreeBSD Lite" version of each new
> >    > RELEASE which is just CD#1 for $5-10.  Being a Joe-user, that's all I ever
> > 
> >    I've asked this and they don't much like the idea since it makes it
> >    extremely hard to turn a profit at those sorts of margins.  FreeBSD is
> >    not enough of a "volume" product that you could make enough just on
> >    sheer quantity alone.  Frankly, we have no idea how Cheapbytes makes
> >    any money at $4.95.
> > 
> >    - Jordan
> > 
> > 
> >    To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> >    with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message

-- 

Nathan Ahlstrom
nrahlstr@winternet.com
http://www.FreeBSD.org/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19 10:14:44 1999
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At 10:47 AM 2/19/99 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote:
 
>So basically, RMS is the stereotypical geek, with odious personal habits,
>and absolutely no people skills.  Why am I suddenly glad he distances
>himself from anything non gnu.

Unfortunately, he appears to be a relatively good virus writer and 
propagandist.

And, alas, he's not distancing himself from anything "non-GNU;" he's
attacking it. He even attacked Tim O'Reilly, AT TIM'S OWN CONFERENCE,
for not giving books away for free.

--Brett Glass



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19 10:15:56 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902191814.LAA02577@usr09.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8)
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:14:15 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu,
	hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990218191626.00cc76a0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 18, 99 07:17:24 pm
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> >If anything, the lack of a requirement to assign license to "The
> >FreeBSD Project, Inc." or some other single entity, and the
> >number of unassigned incorporated programs is what makes the
> >list so large, were you to trigger the advertising clause.
> 
> True. But on the other hand, the FSF asks that all copyrights
> be assigned to it, and look what happens: the software becomes
> part of the GNU Blob.

UCB's CSRG had the same requirement for BSD code.  It resulted in
"one blob" as well... a "blob" with a BSD license, and only one
advertising clause.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19 10:19:39 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:18:59 -0700
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu,
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At 06:14 PM 2/19/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
 
>UCB's CSRG had the same requirement for BSD code.  It resulted in
>"one blob" as well... a "blob" with a BSD license, and only one
>advertising clause.

That's quite a bit less obnoxious. It works better because the owner
can assign the copyright and still use the code for commercial purposes.
That's not possible under the General Poverty License.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19 12:58: 7 1999
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From: dannyman <dannyman@dannyland.org>
To: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990219145800.D4109@stumpy.dannyland.org>
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On Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:14:09PM +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Actually, nowadays people have only vague ideas about Linux, arrive in a
> shop, and want the Linux operating system. Unix? Huh? Oh, it's Linux
> compatible? Linux has a lot of press, even in the idiot PC rags, and
> many users from the Wintel universe who pick up on it have no idea of
> the Unix universe at all.

I look at it all as a metaphor for 19th Century American Immigration.

Alright, I'm a Chicagoan.  Most of the huddled masses of Windows users from
the backward old country of Microsoft are riding over on their CDROMs.  Linux
is New York, and when the newbies see that Giant Penguin statue greeting them
to the promised land, they think the Big Red Hat Apple of New Linux York is
it.

The smart ones though, hop on a train to Chicago.  Some of us knew somebody in
FreeBSD and so we skipped around the Big Red Hat Apple altogether and think
that someday when we've got a spare PC, we'll take a trip to visit the Giant
Penguin that is doing our Great Free Nation so much good in bringing us good
users.

Alright, it's not a great metaphor, but I like it. :)

-danny

-- 
dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Fri Feb 19 13:32:28 1999
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Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:32:05 -0700
To: dannyman <dannyman@dannyland.org>,
	Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19990219145800.D4109@stumpy.dannyland.org>
References: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
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And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.

Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)

--Brett

At 02:58 PM 2/19/99 -0600, dannyman wrote:
 
>On Wed, Feb 17, 1999 at 09:14:09PM +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> Actually, nowadays people have only vague ideas about Linux, arrive in a
>> shop, and want the Linux operating system. Unix? Huh? Oh, it's Linux
>> compatible? Linux has a lot of press, even in the idiot PC rags, and
>> many users from the Wintel universe who pick up on it have no idea of
>> the Unix universe at all.
>
>I look at it all as a metaphor for 19th Century American Immigration.
>
>Alright, I'm a Chicagoan.  Most of the huddled masses of Windows users from
>the backward old country of Microsoft are riding over on their CDROMs.  Linux
>is New York, and when the newbies see that Giant Penguin statue greeting them
>to the promised land, they think the Big Red Hat Apple of New Linux York is
>it.
>
>The smart ones though, hop on a train to Chicago.  Some of us knew somebody in
>FreeBSD and so we skipped around the Big Red Hat Apple altogether and think
>that someday when we've got a spare PC, we'll take a trip to visit the Giant
>Penguin that is doing our Great Free Nation so much good in bringing us good
>users.
>
>Alright, it's not a great metaphor, but I like it. :)
>
>-danny
>
>-- 
>dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 10:50:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8)
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990219111737.03fbfd90@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 19, 99 11:18:59 am"
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:50:28 -0500 (EST)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu,
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Brett Glass said:
> At 06:14 PM 2/19/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote:
>  
> >UCB's CSRG had the same requirement for BSD code.  It resulted in
> >"one blob" as well... a "blob" with a BSD license, and only one
> >advertising clause.
> 
> That's quite a bit less obnoxious. It works better because the owner
> can assign the copyright and still use the code for commercial purposes.
> That's not possible under the General Poverty License.
> 
That is the best description of the "GPL" I have EVER heard...  More
like GPLEFCVA$C...

General poverty license except for cdrom vendors and $upport companies.

(Hey, I don't care if people make money -- however developers should
 directly be in the money pipeline also !!!)

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 10:53:56 1999
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Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990219143045.03fe4700@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 19, 99 02:32:05 pm"
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:53:05 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dannyman@dannyland.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
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Brett Glass said:
> And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
> to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.
> 
> Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> 
One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an enclosed
(or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:14:51 1999
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From: dannyman <dannyman@dannyland.org>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990220131448.B10162@stumpy.dannyland.org>
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On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 01:53:05PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> Brett Glass said:
> > And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
> > to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.
> > 
> > Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> > 
> One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an enclosed
> (or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?

No.

-- 
dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:22:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <19990220131448.B10162@stumpy.dannyland.org> from dannyman at "Feb 20, 99 01:14:48 pm"
To: dannyman@dannyland.org (dannyman)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:21:57 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
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dannyman said:
> On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 01:53:05PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > Brett Glass said:
> > > And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
> > > to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.
> > > 
> > > Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> > > 
> > One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an enclosed
> > (or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?
> 
> No.
> 
They can smell awful.  One or two isn't so bad.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:24:39 1999
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To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
Cc: brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990220132423.C10162@stumpy.dannyland.org>
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On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 02:21:57PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> dannyman said:
> > On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 01:53:05PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> > > Brett Glass said:

> > > > And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start
> > > > trying to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold
> > > > pieces.
> > > > 
> > > > Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> > > > 
> > > One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an
> > > enclosed (or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?
> > 
> > No.
> > 
> They can smell awful.  One or two isn't so bad.

I generally try to avoid smelling penguins myself, but you know, different
strokes for different folks.

-- 
dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:36:17 1999
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> Brett Glass said:
> > And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
> > to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.
> > 
> > Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> > 
> One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an enclosed
> (or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?

I would love to see the face of a hungry wolf walking into a room full of 
penguins 8)

	Cheers,
	Amancio





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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:38:54 1999
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, dyson@iquest.net
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD 
Cc: dannyman@dannyland.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
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At 11:31 AM 2/20/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
 
>I would love to see the face of a hungry wolf walking into a room full of 
>penguins 8)

That's it! Let's do a special version of FreeBSD called LupOS.

--Brett



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 11:38:56 1999
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:36:19 -0700
To: dyson@iquest.net
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu,
	hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:50 PM 2/20/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
 
>> That's quite a bit less obnoxious. It works better because the owner
>> can assign the copyright and still use the code for commercial purposes.
>> That's not possible under the General Poverty License.
>> 
>That is the best description of the "GPL" I have EVER heard...  More
>like GPLEFCVA$C...
>
>General poverty license except for cdrom vendors and $upport companies.
>
>(Hey, I don't care if people make money -- however developers should
> directly be in the money pipeline also !!!)

The problem is that the CD-ROM vendors and support companies ultimately
won't make money on GPLed software. There's tons of free support and
free literature already, and what can't be handled by reading that
generally requires an on-site consultant. (Doing things by phone is
TREMENDOUSLY expensive.) The CD-ROM vendors, likewise, will need to plan
for the day when high-bandwidth links are ubiquitous. They'll be able
to sell commercial software (including customized versions of BSD-licensed
stuff) and make money, but not GPLed software, because they won't be able 
to gain even a small proprietary edge by adding novel features or improvements 
to the code. 

--Brett


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 12:19: 4 1999
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Message-ID: <002801be5d0d$857be580$eb01000a@mike>
From: "Mike" <skillet@nauticom.net>
To: <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD 
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I put my Money on the wolf's ;)

Mike
I once saw a Mac in the trash and right then I knew there was a god.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>; dyson@iquest.net
<dyson@iquest.net>
Cc: dannyman@dannyland.org <dannyman@dannyland.org>;
naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>;
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD


>At 11:31 AM 2/20/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
>>I would love to see the face of a hungry wolf walking into a room full of
>>penguins 8)
>
>That's it! Let's do a special version of FreeBSD called LupOS.
>
>--Brett
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
>



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 12:50:53 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902202049.NAA16452@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
To: dannyman@dannyland.org (dannyman)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:49:58 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
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In-Reply-To: <19990220131448.B10162@stumpy.dannyland.org> from "dannyman" at Feb 20, 99 01:14:48 pm
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> > Have you ever been in an enclosed area with penguins?
> 
> No.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that this will be
the majority answer for the listening audience, with the possible
exceptions of Bruce Wayne, Selina Kyle, and Oswald Cobblepot.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
PS: http://www.toymania.com/sp/sppeng.gif
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 12:52:39 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199902202052.NAA16528@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:52:16 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, dannyman@dannyland.org,
	naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199902201931.LAA75879@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Feb 20, 99 11:31:37 am
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> I would love to see the face of a hungry wolf walking into a room full of 
> penguins 8)

If the room was full of penguins, wouldn't you be a penguin too?

I know, I know... "If your friends jumped off a cliff...".

8-)


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 13:12: 4 1999
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Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <199902202049.NAA16452@usr08.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 20, 99 08:49:58 pm"
To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:09:46 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dannyman@dannyland.org, dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org,
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Terry Lambert said:
> > > Have you ever been in an enclosed area with penguins?
> > 
> > No.
> 
> I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing that this will be
> the majority answer for the listening audience, with the possible
> exceptions of Bruce Wayne, Selina Kyle, and Oswald Cobblepot.
> 
Oswald should be their mascot :-).


-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 13:12:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <19990220132423.C10162@stumpy.dannyland.org> from dannyman at "Feb 20, 99 01:24:23 pm"
To: dannyman@dannyland.org (dannyman)
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:11:51 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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dannyman said:
> > > 
> > They can smell awful.  One or two isn't so bad.
> 
> I generally try to avoid smelling penguins myself, but you know, different
> strokes for different folks.
> 
It all depends on how much a person gets around.  I have been on farms
also...  I prefer not to live near a pig-farm, for example.  Similarly,
but not as intensely, penguins have that kind problem. 

In fact, I do suggest avoiding pig-farms if you are sensitive to odors.

-- 
John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 13:15:37 1999
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To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
Cc: brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de,
	freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990220151407.F10162@stumpy.dannyland.org>
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On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 04:11:51PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote:
> dannyman said:

> > > They can smell awful.  One or two isn't so bad.
> > 
> > I generally try to avoid smelling penguins myself, but you know, different
> > strokes for different folks.
> > 
> It all depends on how much a person gets around.  I have been on farms
> also...  I prefer not to live near a pig-farm, for example.  Similarly, but
> not as intensely, penguins have that kind problem. 
> 
> In fact, I do suggest avoiding pig-farms if you are sensitive to odors.

Here at the University of Illinois, I've found it best to give the Swine
Research Facility wide berth.  Some days, the winds blow from the south, and
the campus is blanketed with a mild manure aroma.

-danny

-- 
dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 14: 7: 0 1999
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:04:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Pat Lynch <lynch@rush.net>
To: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, dannyman@dannyland.org,
	naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Does Linus Torvald's Q&A at USENIX count?

-Pat

___________________________________________________________________________

Pat Lynch						lynch@rush.net
Systems Administrator					Rush Networking

Remark made by Bertrand Meyer (inventor of the Eiffel language) at a
panel discussion at OOPSLA '89:

        "COBOL programmers are destined to code COBOL for the
         rest of their lives, and thereafter."

___________________________________________________________________________

On Sat, 20 Feb 1999, John S. Dyson wrote:

> Brett Glass said:
> > And as soon as the immigrants arrive in the country, con men start trying
> > to sell them gold-plated nickels, claiming that they're $5 gold pieces.
> > 
> > Funny, but the coins have penguins on them. ;-)
> > 
> One or two pengiuns aren't too bad, but have you ever been in an enclosed
> (or not-so-enclosed) area with penguins?
> 
> -- 
> John                  | Never try to teach a pig to sing,
> dyson@iquest.net      | it makes one look stupid
> jdyson@nc.com         | and it irritates the pig.
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
> 



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 17:34:32 1999
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:33:49 -0600
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To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Sat, Feb 20, 1999 at 08:52:16PM +0000, a little birdie told me
that Terry Lambert remarked
> 
> I know, I know... "If your friends jumped off a cliff...".

Then I could install FreeBSD on all their computers!

And I'd get all the pizza too.


---

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| Matthew Fuller     http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd |
* fullermd@futuresouth.com       fullermd@over-yonder.net *
| UNIX Systems Administrator      Specializing in FreeBSD |
*   FutureSouth Communications   ISPHelp ISP Consulting   *
|  "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends,   |
*    is because I haven't figured out how to light the    *
|                     middle yet"                         |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


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Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:49:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
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On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote:

> At 10:47 AM 2/19/99 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote:
>  
> >So basically, RMS is the stereotypical geek, with odious personal habits,
> >and absolutely no people skills.  Why am I suddenly glad he distances
> >himself from anything non gnu.
> 
> Unfortunately, he appears to be a relatively good virus writer and 
> propagandist.
> 
> And, alas, he's not distancing himself from anything "non-GNU;" he's
> attacking it. He even attacked Tim O'Reilly, AT TIM'S OWN CONFERENCE,
> for not giving books away for free.

So, Tim O'Reilly is supposed to just make books out of thin air?  Does
RMS have a connection to reality?  Paper, printing presses, binders, ink,
and labour all cost money.  Of course, there's far more overhead involved
here that I really don't feel like getting into.

What crack is he on?  Maybe he didn't notice that communism as a social
experiment failed before it ever got off the ground.  The leninist
states that grew out of it also failed, though it took far longer.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)



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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 22:39:51 1999
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To: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
Cc: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
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From: Jonas Luster <jonas@nethammer.qad.org>
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Thus spoke Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>:

> > And, alas, he's not distancing himself from anything "non-GNU;" he's
> > attacking it. He even attacked Tim O'Reilly, AT TIM'S OWN CONFERENCE,
> > for not giving books away for free.
> 
> So, Tim O'Reilly is supposed to just make books out of thin air?  Does
> RMS have a connection to reality?  Paper, printing presses, binders, ink,
> and labour all cost money.  Of course, there's far more overhead involved
> here that I really don't feel like getting into.

RMS, basically, is your out-of-the-box advocatis diaboli. Speaking to
him in a more private athmosphere shows his real concerns about Unix
and particularly Linux/FreeBSD going more and more the commecrial way
without noticing that the roots that e.g. Linux was built on are free
and should stay so.
Soft voices cannot or will not be heard in this NASDAQ-focussed,
Redmond dominated IT-world of ours, take some Linux-Vendors aim for an 
commercialised, expensive, Linux and RMS' view of the things and you'll 
find a way between this both extremes.

O'Reilly might have been the worst target to chose, but, hey, he got
his revenge :). 

jonas


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From owner-freebsd-chat  Sat Feb 20 23:39: 0 1999
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Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:08:45 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage...
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On Sunday, 21 February 1999 at  0:49:04 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote:
>
>> At 10:47 AM 2/19/99 -0500, Jamie Bowden wrote:
>>
>>> So basically, RMS is the stereotypical geek, with odious personal habits,
>>> and absolutely no people skills.  Why am I suddenly glad he distances
>>> himself from anything non gnu.
>>
>> Unfortunately, he appears to be a relatively good virus writer and
>> propagandist.
>>
>> And, alas, he's not distancing himself from anything "non-GNU;" he's
>> attacking it. He even attacked Tim O'Reilly, AT TIM'S OWN CONFERENCE,
>> for not giving books away for free.
>
> So, Tim O'Reilly is supposed to just make books out of thin air?  Does
> RMS have a connection to reality?  Paper, printing presses, binders, ink,
> and labour all cost money.  Of course, there's far more overhead involved
> here that I really don't feel like getting into.
>
> What crack is he on?  Maybe he didn't notice that communism as a social
> experiment failed before it ever got off the ground.  The leninist
> states that grew out of it also failed, though it took far longer.

To be fair to rms, if GNU is communist (and there's a lot going for
that theory; I've proposed it myself.  Funnily, rms wasn't amused),
then FreeBSD is anarchist.  That didn't work in society either.

Greg
--
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