From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 7: 9:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from des.follo.net (des.follo.net [195.204.143.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA614156DE for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@des.follo.net) Received: (from des@localhost) by des.follo.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA82448; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:08:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: IP masquerading Organization: Yes Interactive Visit-Us-At: http://www.yes.no/ From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Aug 1999 16:08:28 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 5 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 04:06 #freebsd Yaakov> Isn't IP Masquerade where you put funny costumes on all your IP frames and have them dance around until midnight when they have their netmasks removed. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@yes.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 8:59:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864A715235 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 08:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18606; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:58:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: members@funy.org Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, groo@cs.stevens-tech.edu Subject: pictures from dinner with Luigi last night Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Luigi, it was fun, even if we did get lost on the way back to Tinton Falls... ;) pictures are located at http://www.funy.org/luigi and will be linked off the main page in a minute or two ;) Thanks to Bill Squier too who came out with us, and de-facto represented the NetBSD contingent ;) Fun was had by all 5 of us, I think ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 14:27:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from penelope.skunk.org (penelope.skunk.org [208.133.204.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FB3151E9; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@penelope.skunk.org) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by penelope.skunk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA84706; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:29:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben Rosengart To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Mike Pritchard , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes In-Reply-To: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > I guess they don't teach manual typewriting classes any more :-) > It *had* to be two spaces or you got seriously marked down! > > Two spaces has been burned into my brain since high school! (I wonder > if I can sue?) . For proof, just look at all the postings I've > ever made to these lists. > > I'm not nitpicking... I couldn't care less what other people do. But > I think it's an amusing generational effect. I never took a manual typewriting class, but I was taught the same convention. So I wouldn't call it generational[0]. [0] I was also taught not to begin sentences with "so". -- Ben UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group StarMedia Network, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 15:34:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69D2B15165 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 15:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id VAA18709; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:55:14 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199908291955.VAA18709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: pictures from dinner with Luigi last night To: lynch@bsdunix.net (Pat Lynch) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:55:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: members@funy.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, groo@cs.stevens-tech.edu In-Reply-To: from "Pat Lynch" at Aug 29, 99 11:58:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1006 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Luigi, it was fun, even if we did get lost on the way back to Tinton > Falls... ;) > > pictures are located at http://www.funy.org/luigi and will be linked off > the main page in a minute or two ;) > > Thanks to Bill Squier too who came out with us, and de-facto represented > the NetBSD contingent ;) > > Fun was had by all 5 of us, I think ;) definitely. You were great guests and i hope to see you sometime in Italy for a special FUNY meeting -- heck, there is even a direct flight from JFK to pisa with air-europe! cheers luigi -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . Universita` di Pisa TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522 . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/ ==== First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication ==== -----------------------------------+------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 16:12:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D3C14DE4; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pb8s10a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.218.185] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11LE7c-0002Pg-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:12:25 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00435; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:01:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:01:51 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Ben Rosengart Cc: Matthew Dillon , Mike Pritchard , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes Message-ID: <19990830000150.B265@marder-1> References: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Ben Rosengart on Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:29:20PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:29:20PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote: > [redirected to -chat] > > On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > I guess they don't teach manual typewriting classes any more :-) > > It *had* to be two spaces or you got seriously marked down! > > > > Two spaces has been burned into my brain since high school! (I wonder > > if I can sue?) . For proof, just look at all the postings I've > > ever made to these lists. > > > > I'm not nitpicking... I couldn't care less what other people do. But > > I think it's an amusing generational effect. > > I never took a manual typewriting class, but I was taught the same > convention. So I wouldn't call it generational[0]. > > [0] I was also taught not to begin sentences with "so". > ...or "and" or "but" > -- > Ben > > UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group > StarMedia Network, Inc. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 16:19:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F07115246 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pb8s10a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.218.185] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11LEEU-0004lR-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:19:30 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00477 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:12:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:12:01 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Correct casting in ANSI C Message-ID: <19990830001201.C265@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To achieve *strict* ANSI compliance, what is the correct way to use cast(s) in the following code. gcc doesn't complain, even with ``-Wall'', but Sun's ANSI C compiler gives a warning like "the semantics of SCONV change in ANSI C; use an explicit cast". Do I need to cast each int (& the literal 1000), or just cast the whole expression? int i = 123, j = 57, k = 500; double d; d = i / j + k / 1000; -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 17: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monster.abyss.net (dark.abyss.net [207.198.22.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 797A51584A for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Received: from nightmare.abyss.net (ksb@nightmare.abyss.net [10.0.0.3]) by monster.abyss.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA07209 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:50:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:01:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kevin S. Brackett" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hi Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm looking to buy a DEC Alpha motherboard+cpu combo for home use, any ideas where I can get these? (As i'm under the impression that common pc hardware works on/with them...) thanks! :) - kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 18:44: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17AB714DD3 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11LF8y-000AJ2-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:17:52 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11LF8x-0009lB-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:17:51 +0100 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:17:51 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Correct casting in ANSI C Message-ID: <19990830011750.A37445@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19990830001201.C265@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990830001201.C265@marder-1> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > To achieve *strict* ANSI compliance, what is the correct way to > use cast(s) in the following code. > > gcc doesn't complain, even with ``-Wall'', Or `-Wall -ansi -pedantic'. > but Sun's ANSI C compiler > gives a warning like "the semantics of SCONV change in ANSI C; use > an explicit cast". Do I need to cast each int (& the literal 1000), > or just cast the whole expression? > > int i = 123, j = 57, k = 500; > double d; > > d = i / j + k / 1000; Hmm. I think you can just cast one part of each division, to make it do it in floating point, or something. How about d = (double)i / j + (double)k / 1000; or, somewhat cleaner, d = (double)i / j + k / 1000.0; Otherwise it will just do an integer division (or so it appears -- I'm not an expert at this sort of thing). It seems you need to get some floating point into each division. You might like to go and ask this in comp.lang.c, where all the ANSI C experts hang out. Incidentally, your mail came through with lines padded out to 80 characters with trailing spaces, did you break something? I don't think it's my end, I haven't noticed it on anything else. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 29 20:40: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C4114F96 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:39:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from ppp18415.on.bellglobal.com (Hamilton-ppp44868.sympatico.ca [206.172.76.61]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02122; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by ppp18415.on.bellglobal.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA69536; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:40:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:40:16 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Andrew Kenneth Milton Cc: Peter Jeremy , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting ways to print 3000 spaces... Message-ID: <19990829234016.C64768@ppp18415.on.bellglobal.com> Reply-To: hoek@FreeBSD.ORG References: <99Aug30.091841est.40333@border.alcanet.com.au> <199908292333.JAA73359@mail.theinternet.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199908292333.JAA73359@mail.theinternet.com.au>; from Andrew Kenneth Milton on Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 09:33:54AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 09:33:54AM +1000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > > I would have said acting like first year undergraduates d8) > Solving some peripheral part of a problem in some clever way rather > than actually solving the problem, and then hoping for partial credit d8). Oh, and you passed your first year as an undergraduate through some other method? Sure.... -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 2:39:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F93815108 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 02:39:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p2fs12a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.220.48] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11LNsk-0006rP-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:37:43 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id KAA00529; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:29:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:29:39 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Ben Smithurst Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Correct casting in ANSI C Message-ID: <19990830102938.A265@marder-1> References: <19990830001201.C265@marder-1> <19990830011750.A37445@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990830011750.A37445@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 01:17:51AM +0100 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 01:17:51AM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > To achieve *strict* ANSI compliance, what is the correct way to > > use cast(s) in the following code. > > > > gcc doesn't complain, even with ``-Wall'', > > Or `-Wall -ansi -pedantic'. > No > > but Sun's ANSI C compiler > > gives a warning like "the semantics of SCONV change in ANSI C; use > > an explicit cast". Do I need to cast each int (& the literal 1000), > > or just cast the whole expression? > > > > int i = 123, j = 57, k = 500; > > double d; > > > > d = i / j + k / 1000; > > Hmm. I think you can just cast one part of each division, to make it do it > in floating point, or something. How about > > d = (double)i / j + (double)k / 1000; > > or, somewhat cleaner, > > d = (double)i / j + k / 1000.0; > Both of these work of course but the second one is, as you say, cleaner. It was just that there was a debate at work about the correct way (someone said you had to cast *all* the ints) to be *strict* ANSI. > Otherwise it will just do an integer division (or so it appears -- I'm > not an expert at this sort of thing). It seems you need to get some > floating point into each division. > That's what I think. > You might like to go and ask this in comp.lang.c, where all the ANSI C > experts hang out. > I may do that. > Incidentally, your mail came through with lines padded out to 80 > characters with trailing spaces, did you break something? I don't think > it's my end, I haven't noticed it on anything else. > Interesting. I made a typo in the address and it bounced so I just copied and pasted the original into a new message. Mutt, it seems, pads the displayed lines to the window width. BTW Ben, I've used the 2 font progs you sent me, fontdump and fontmake. Great job (I wanted to make an iso-8x8 thin font). Only thing that took a while to figure out is that the .fnt files are uuencoded. > -- > Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and > | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 8:16:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8399414C27 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07180 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:14:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990830090826.04661c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:14:26 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Windows 2000 to demand Microsoft-specific DNS extensions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The PC Week article at http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1016137,00.html suggests that Windows 2000, which incorporates Microsoft's "Active Directory," will require Microsoft's proprietary extensions to DNS in order to function. This, in turn, will require a site to use NT servers as its domain name servers. This article is badly written in that it skips the fundamental technical details, does not explore the possibility that there might be workarounds for the problem, and dwells instead on the petty, internal corporate turf wars that this misfeature might cause. Nonetheless, it's food for thought: Can Microsoft successfully force companies to change their server platforms by manipulating its ubiquitous desktop client? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 8:43:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCC115193 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11LSUr-000BQc-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:33:21 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11LSUp-000AMw-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:33:19 +0100 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 15:33:19 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Correct casting in ANSI C Message-ID: <19990830153319.A39818@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19990830001201.C265@marder-1> <19990830011750.A37445@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <19990830102938.A265@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990830102938.A265@marder-1> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: >> You might like to go and ask this in comp.lang.c, where all the ANSI C >> experts hang out. > > I may do that. RTFFAQ first though :-) I don't remember seeing anything about this though, but there might be something -- IIRC it's about 7000 lines long. > Interesting. I made a typo in the address and it bounced so I just > copied and pasted the original into a new message. Mutt, it seems, > pads the displayed lines to the window width. It's easier to just go into `sent-mail' (or whatever you call it) and hit `e' (edit-message, you may have it bound differently). That will just bring the message up in your editor, where you can correct the address and send again. No mucking about with copy and paste. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 9:55: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21DE14C3B; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA83395; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:53:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Ben Rosengart , Matthew Dillon , Mike Pritchard , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes References: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> <19990830000150.B265@marder-1> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Aug 1999 18:53:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:01:51 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > On Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:29:20PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote: > > [0] I was also taught not to begin sentences with "so". > ...or "and" or "but" Or "or". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 10:20:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id C6A9F14DC2; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:20:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990830090826.04661c40@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:14:26 -0600) Subject: Re: Windows 2000 to demand Microsoft-specific DNS extensions Message-Id: <19990830172027.C6A9F14DC2@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The PC Week article at > > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,1016137,00.html > > suggests that Windows 2000, which incorporates Microsoft's "Active > Directory," will require Microsoft's proprietary extensions to DNS in order > to function. This, in turn, will require a site to use NT servers as its > domain name servers. This article is badly written in that it skips the the copies fo windows 2000 being used/tested here are using an HP B-180 as their nameserver. seems to work as well as any microsoft product and significantly better than some. > fundamental technical details, does not explore the possibility that there > might be workarounds for the problem, and dwells instead on the petty, > internal corporate turf wars that this misfeature might cause. Nonetheless, > it's food for thought: Can Microsoft successfully force companies to change > their server platforms by manipulating its ubiquitous desktop client? there is a lawsuit before judge penfield jackson on this very issue. the doj contends that microsoft could do such a thing and has acted illegally in the past. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 14:38:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C48F14D50; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:38:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p61s11a06.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.219.98] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11LZ7R-00034f-00; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:37:38 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id WAA00313; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:30:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:30:05 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Ben Rosengart , Matthew Dillon , Mike Pritchard , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes Message-ID: <19990830223004.A270@marder-1> References: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> <19990830000150.B265@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 06:53:43PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 06:53:43PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > On Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:29:20PM -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote: > > > [0] I was also taught not to begin sentences with "so". > > ...or "and" or "but" > > Or "or". ^^ Yes :-) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 19:20:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D6205.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.155.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB526150B7 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00608; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:22:35 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:22:33 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got a match? In-Reply-To: <19990816114104.A231@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wonder what kind of security features this thing has. I wouldn't want script kiddies fooling with my lights, or the thermostat :) On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: | Here is an interesting web site about the new IPic - a match head | sized web-server: | | http://www-ccs.cs.umass.edu/~shri/iPic.html | | This is a tiny chip that can be added to just about appliance. The IPic | is a TCP/IP stack in hardware, along with a web server built in. | | That should allow us to turn on a coffee machine, program a VCR, or | cook dinner from our computers, whether at home or via the Internet. | | Technical documentation is available from the above web site. | | I just discovered the web site by reading about it in a different | mailing list (that is, I had nothing to do with its design, mind you). | | Fascinating... | | Adam | | -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 20:41:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3FA15441; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15115; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:41:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990830213923.0475bcd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:40:05 -0600 To: Ben Rosengart , Matthew Dillon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes Cc: Mike Pritchard , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:29 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ben Rosengart wrote: > [0] I was also taught not to begin sentences with "so". So? ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 20:59:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDA614D89 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15274 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:59:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990830215758.046f2420@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:59:15 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Interesting article on Linux and BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's an interesting editorial on Linux and BSD at http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/column/0,4712,2321752,00.html Participants on this list may want to read it and jump into the Talkback, where the "Linux Faithful" are (of course) attempting to put down BSD UNIX. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 21:28:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34394153BA for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (mercury-1-74.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.87.74]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id XAA18194; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:28:40 -0500 Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B6D0A0; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:29:09 -0500 (CDT) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Interesting article on Linux and BSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:59:15 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990830215758.046f2420@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:29:09 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990831042909.2B6D0A0@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.2.0.58.19990830215758.046f2420@localhost>, Brett Glass wrote: } There's an interesting editorial on Linux and BSD at It's not really. It's about Linux, and mentions FreeBSD, BSD/OS and BSDs in general. And its mentions of them are generally in a positive light. } http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/column/0,4712,2321752,00.html } } Participants on this list may want to read it and jump } into the Talkback, where the "Linux Faithful" are (of course) } attempting to put down BSD UNIX. Which part did you read with such a chip on your shoulder that you think anyone is attempting to put down BSD? ~In fact, for integrators with customers who want to add their own particular ~twist to operating system level functionality, the BSD operating systems are ~a better choice than Linux. But, for reasons having more do with timing and ~marketing, and nothing to do with technical superiority, the BSD operating ~systems labor in relative obscurity. Hopefully you don't object to what was said in the part I quoted above, which is not in any way out of line with the tone of the rest of the article. That's what you've been trying to beat people over the head with in a much more annoying manner for a long time. The article does mention in-fighting among UNIX vendors causing problems and losses in market share, but there's nothing inaccurate or finger-pointing about saying that. Your agenda is showing rather badly. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 23:24:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FFAF15108 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16141 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:21:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831001836.04730df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:18:52 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Blind access to FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A blind friend is interested in using FreeBSD, and I need information on how to help her use it with a screen reader. Apparently, there's a "BLINUX" project, but this is -- of course -- Linux-specific. Does anyone out there have information on FreeBSD accessibility for the blind and/or visually impaired? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 30 23:24:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E0515108 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 23:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16144; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:21:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831001932.0473d100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:21:46 -0600 To: Jon Hamilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Interesting article on Linux and BSD Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990831042909.2B6D0A0@woodstock.monkey.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:29 PM 8/30/99 -0500, Jon Hamilton wrote: >Which part did you read with such a chip on your shoulder that you >think anyone is attempting to put down BSD? Why did you have such a chip on your shoulder about BSD advocacy that you failed to read the TalkBacks? Your ignorance AND your unwarranted desire to condemn are showing rather badly. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 1:26:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from drago.cert.org.tw (drago.cert.org.tw [140.117.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C54153A3 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 01:26:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from foxfair@drago.cert.org.tw) Received: from foxfair (foxfair.cc.nsysu.edu.tw [140.117.100.101]) by drago.cert.org.tw (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07804 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:23:09 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:16 +0800 From: Foxfair Hu To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Message-Id: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.25.04 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI: http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=TECB29 and Jordan said "we were the snobs!" *sneaking :p -Foxfair. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 2: 5:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 78B8D15398 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 20073 invoked by uid 1000); 31 Aug 1999 09:14:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:14:28 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting article on Linux and BSD Message-ID: <19990831111426.A19746@paert.tse-online.de> References: <19990831042909.2B6D0A0@woodstock.monkey.net> <4.2.0.58.19990831001932.0473d100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831001932.0473d100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:21:46AM -0600 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Brett, On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:21:46AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >Which part did you read with such a chip on your shoulder that you > >think anyone is attempting to put down BSD? > Why did you have such a chip on your shoulder about BSD advocacy that > you failed to read the TalkBacks? > Your ignorance AND your unwarranted desire to condemn are showing rather > badly. Yes, ... I've read the TalkBacks and it was and it is clearly visible, that the BSD-people make their points moreover they stick to the facts. Whereas it seems, that your only goal is to constantly bash the linux-way of things. BTW. ... I wasn't aware of the fact (you stated), that the BSDs have a 'multi-threaded' IP-stack? AFAIK the linux ip-stack is _currently_ a bit more multi-threaded than FreeBSDs ... Kind regards, Andreas -- : TSE GmbH Neue Medien : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 4:32:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3461A15234 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 04:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA86379; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:30:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Foxfair Hu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 31 Aug 1999 13:30:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Foxfair Hu's message of "Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:25:16 +0800" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Foxfair Hu writes: > http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=TECB29 Can't they *ever* get the meaning of BSD right? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 7:57:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E466C159C1 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19341; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:56:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831085258.046dedb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:56:25 -0600 To: Andreas Braukmann , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Interesting article on Linux and BSD In-Reply-To: <19990831111426.A19746@paert.tse-online.de> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831001932.0473d100@localhost> <19990831042909.2B6D0A0@woodstock.monkey.net> <4.2.0.58.19990831001932.0473d100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:14 AM 8/31/99 +0200, Andreas Braukmann wrote: >Yes, ... I've read the TalkBacks and it was and it is clearly visible, >that the BSD-people make their points moreover they stick to the facts. >Whereas it seems, that your only goal is to constantly bash the >linux-way of things. Nonsense, and you know it. I am opposed to the anti-programmer nature of the GPL, and to the Linuxoids' constant bashing of the BSDs with outright falsehoods (e.g. the specious claim that the BSDs are "fragmented" and Linux is not). >BTW. ... I wasn't aware of the fact (you stated), that the BSDs >have a 'multi-threaded' IP-stack? >AFAIK the linux ip-stack is _currently_ a bit more multi-threaded >than FreeBSDs ... Use the source, Luke. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 9: 2:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7461814DB6 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20050; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:01:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:01:31 -0600 To: Foxfair Hu , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 PM 8/31/99 +0800, Foxfair Hu wrote: >FYI: > >http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=TECB29 > > and Jordan said "we were the snobs!" *sneaking :p > > -Foxfair. Actually, the most telling line in this article is a quote from Eric Raymond, who says: "The BSD people had a lot of advantages," Raymond said, but "they got one thing wrong that completely overcame all their advantages. They got their sociology wrong." ESR is largely correct in this. FreeBSD's current development group does chase away good people by requiring conformity and unquestioning assent; mavericks, no matter how much good they might do, are not welcome. But Steve Vaughan-Nichols also hits it on the head when he says that marketing is a problem. As a person who (in somewhat of a Jekyll and Hyde manner) both hacks and markets, I can see the problems in FreeBSD's approach. It is possible to work around it, and I'd love to mount an effort to bring FreeBSD's marketing and evangelism up to par. In fact, as I've mentioned in earlier messages, I now have some folks volunteering funding and asking me to do this. And I am close to getting the TIME to pursue it as well. What I'm concerned about, though, is that the developers might literally try to sabotage such an effort. In that case, it'd be necessary to do a fork (which I'd hate to do; it entails much wasted and duplicated work) or to go with one of the other BSDs (perhaps OpenBSD). So, I'm in somewhat of a quandary here. Would Jordan Hubbard, in a million years, even accept the existence of an effort that would actively market and evangelize BSD UNIX? Would Walnut Creek try to take FreeBSD private if such an effort became too successful? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 13: 8: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77DE14C1C for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.226.16]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3ABB; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:06:09 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA59150; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:06:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 22:06:32 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: Foxfair Hu , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Message-ID: <19990831220632.B58178@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [People easily offended by strong words, go read another message] * Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) [990831 18:33]: >What I'm concerned about, though, is that the developers might literally try >to sabotage such an effort. In that case, it'd be necessary to do a fork >(which I'd hate to do; it entails much wasted and duplicated work) or to go >with one of the other BSDs (perhaps OpenBSD). So, I'm in somewhat of a >quandary here. Would Jordan Hubbard, in a million years, even accept the existence >of an effort that would actively market and evangelize BSD UNIX? Would Walnut >Creek try to take FreeBSD private if such an effort became too successful? For blood's sake Brett, are you bloddy paranoid or something? Every mail you sent nowadays always mentions Jordan as the big bad wolf and with you being the humble sheep that only wants to do this or that. In the beginning of my mailinglist forays I had respect for you due to your analysis of the GPL and all that related. However you wasted all your respect by now. By now I think you and your rabit behaviour actually matches Theo's zealotry and I would sincerely suggest to relocate your efforts to OpenBSD as you already hinted at in the above. Also, for all your `preaching' and `evanglism' you even consider forking yet another BSD? Then I see you have learned as little as you continuously chose to criticise Jordan for. The developers welcome advocacy, in fact, some of us do it through development in ways you probably can't understand since you appear too focused on your own little private agenda. Also, in all my encounters with Jordan I am starting to see his points more and more and I admit sometimes wonder at certain things he does, but after all, Jordan is not god, or Mr. BSD, or whatever, he's only human and IMNSHO entitled to make mistakes. Can you finally accept stuff like this and start to actually do SOMETHING? We have a saying here in Rotterdam which translates to "No words, but deeds." You sir, should probably never relocate to Rotterdam. Enjoy your ongoing BSD life. I hope I will not be a part of it in whatever idea you want to give to these words. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best I think, therefore I am. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 15:34:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A4214E46 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23784; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:33:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831153723.00a39c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:33:33 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: Foxfair Hu , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990831220632.B58178@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:06 PM 8/31/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >[People easily offended by strong words, go read another message] > >* Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) [990831 18:33]: > > >What I'm concerned about, though, is that the developers might literally try > >to sabotage such an effort. In that case, it'd be necessary to do a fork > >(which I'd hate to do; it entails much wasted and duplicated work) or to go > >with one of the other BSDs (perhaps OpenBSD). So, I'm in somewhat of a > >quandary here. Would Jordan Hubbard, in a million years, even accept the existence > >of an effort that would actively market and evangelize BSD UNIX? Would Walnut > >Creek try to take FreeBSD private if such an effort became too successful? > >For blood's sake Brett, > >are you bloddy paranoid or something? No, just realistic. Jordan has said before, to me personally, that he'll see Linux-style evangelism for FreeBSD "over [his] dead body." I don't think I'm being paranoid if I take Jordan at his word -- figuratively, if not literally. >Every mail you sent nowadays always mentions Jordan as the big bad wolf >and with you being the humble sheep that only wants to do this or that. I don't think that the above is a fair assessment. I *do* fault Jordan for FreeBSD's failures in the areas of advocacy, marketing, and PR, and I think that this is justified since he is the leader of the project and has been quite outspoken in his opposition to effective tactics in this area. But " big bad wolf?" No. >In the beginning of my mailinglist forays I had respect for you due to >your analysis of the GPL and all that related. However you wasted all >your respect by now. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I personally have done my best to be consistent, upfront, ethical, and forthcoming with my views, and to stick to this approach even in the face of opposition or attempts to quash dissent. I would hope that this would ENGENDER respect, but of course, everyone uses different criteria to determine what they will respect and what they will not. One cannot satisfy everyone, so I simply seek to exhibit qualities that I personally find worthy of respect. >By now I think you and your rabit behaviour actually matches Theo's >zealotry and I would sincerely suggest to relocate your efforts to >OpenBSD as you already hinted at in the above. I haven't been "rabid" by any means, nor have I exhibited many of the traits that cause Theo to grate on others. (One trait I *have* exhibited is stubbornness, but then, Jordan and you yourself do too.) >Also, for all your `preaching' and `evanglism' you even consider >forking yet another BSD? Then I see you have learned as little as you >continuously chose to criticise Jordan for. I said -- if you'll reread my message -- that if I made a serious investment in a distribution of FreeBSD I would have no CHOICE but to fork it if Jordan and/or Walnut Creek acted, in some way, to harm that effort. As I mentioned there, I consider forking to be wasteful and unnecessary. But I do recognize that Jordan is an employee of Walnut Creek. That means that, legally, Walnut Creek could begin to claim ownership of any contribution he made to the project on company time. (I would hope that this would never happen, but if one is making a substantial investment one must always consider such a risk and disclose it to investors.) Walnut Creek would have a financial incentive to do this if it decided to cut out CheapBytes and/or other companies that might publish distributions of FreeBSD. US law is very clear on the fact that this is possible. >The developers welcome advocacy, in fact, some of us do it through >development in ways you probably can't understand Development is not advocacy. It may foster or facilitate advocacy, and advocacy, in turn, may help development by aiding the recruitment of good developers. Nonetheless, they are two very different activities. I understand very well how the two interact. >since you appear too >focused on your own little private agenda. I am not focused on any specific agenda. What I offer, in fact, is a "big picture" view from the outside -- one that might not be available to some who are too close to the project to get this perspective. >Also, in all my encounters with Jordan I am starting to see his points >more and more and I admit sometimes wonder at certain things he does, >but after all, Jordan is not god, or Mr. BSD, or whatever, he's only >human and IMNSHO entitled to make mistakes. Agreed. However, he is widely regarded as "Mr. FreeBSD" and/or as a demigod (or maybe a hemidemisemigod?) by many. Certainly, there are some who accept his opinion less critically than they should, or because they fear that dissent will cause problems. (I personally think that controversy is healthy.) >Can you finally accept stuff like this and start to actually do >SOMETHING? I actually have been doing quite a lot. Some of what I've been up to cannot be made public due to client confidentiality, etc. But even so, the things that ARE public -- the large installations of BSD UNIX (not all are FreeBSD, but most are), the magazine articles, etc. -- have made a big difference. I daresay that I'm frequently responsible when BSD UNIX is mentioned in articles which spotlight Linux. Before I go much further with bigger plans, however, I need assurances that I will be able to pursue the release of a heavily evangelized distribution without direct opposition from key players. It's OK if they wouldn't do what I do THEMSELVES. However, I don't want to wind up in an emergency situation where my project would be forced to fork, or suddenly switch to another BSD-derived system such as NetBSD or OpenBSD, to continue. Right now, I see a real risk of that, for two reasons: First, Jordan is currently an employee of Walnut Creek, which may see a financial interest in precluding the development of other distributions. I'd want assuranced from Jordan and RAB that this would not happen. Second, Jordan and some other key players have vocally opposed the sort of active evangelism which, memetically, is necessary for FreeBSD to compete against Linux in the software ecosystem. (Right now, BSD's niche in that ecosystem is being eroded.) >We have a saying here in Rotterdam which translates to "No words, but >deeds." You sir, should probably never relocate to Rotterdam. Actually, I found it to be a nice place during my brief visit. But, as stated above, my deeds speak for themselves. Now, it could be that, to you, nothing but committed code counts as "deeds," but I hope not. Such a view would be very shortsighted -- right now, evangelism and promotion matter much more. In fact, without them, the current shortage of developers to fix known problems (recently cited by Matt Dillon and others in other threads here) may worsen, as more and more find that Linux offers them a better return on their investments of time and effort. >Enjoy your ongoing BSD life. I hope I will not be a part of it in >whatever idea you want to give to these words. You don't have to be a part of it, though you may change your mind once you see the results. What I ask is that my efforts not be actively opposed by you or by The Powers That Be, such as they are. Call my ideas silly or Quixotic if you will; that's fine. (As I've said above, I have no problem with controversy.) But I need to know that I can pursue this project without a risk of problems due to "friendly fire," as it were. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 17: 2:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C01B15A30 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id TAA50000 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA01234 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:57:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:57:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue and some of the complaints Brett is raising. Why should we evangelize? What value is there in selling any Unix OS to the Maudie Fricks of the world? I can't see Unix on the desktop (not even Linux) until some serious and large development effort and dollars go into a no-brain interface that Maudie can use out of the box. AIX failed at that, Solaris failed at that -- and so has every other flavor of unix I know. None of the core teams nor the Linux cadre are drawn to that aspect of Unix for the simple fact that Unix has not been, nor is likely to be about the desktop and the point and click user. Rather, Unix has been about more serious, working systems. I run into a large number of old farts in the Unix world who are still bitter about Sun abandoning SunOS in favor of SYSVR4. Most have been in the trenches and are delighted to know that BSD is still alive and well -- most of them aren't too thrilled about Linux. Most of them don't deal with toy systems, rather 24/7 mission critical systems and have a tendency to judge quality systems by how often and when their pagers go off. I agree with them. The development model that appears to stiffle "creativity" and the "sociology" -- both of which are null terms, as far as I can tell, is precisely the model under which professional software is developed. It's the model that makes all of the *BSDs a superior choice to the haphazard phenomenon lumped under the umbrella of "Linux". Word is spreading and awareness is growing. Patience seems more appropriate than zealotry. Most professionals are turned away by evangelical zeal -- they've seen too much in the past, they won't buy it now. Surprisingly, they are also skeptical of the availability of source -- they perceive it as an invitation to intrusion as has been demonstrated so many times in the past with Linux systems. They are slow to embrace open source at the OS level. Robust security and quality, though, makes open source more desirable -- but security and quality are most important. If advocacy makes us look like Linux, we will be rejected as no better than Linux. So the real queston is this: it's a long, slow process converting professonals, and zealotry won't do it -- quality will. To whom would you rather appeal; the professionals or the desktop crowd? Sorry for my long winded 4 bits. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 17:30:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.twcny.rr.com (mail1-0.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD45014E58 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reichman@twcny.rr.com) Received: from twcny.rr.com ([24.95.188.113]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-53939U80000L80000S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:29:41 -0400 Message-ID: <37CC75D5.35EDB227@twcny.rr.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:39:49 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I must say reading this article kinda gets to me. I have been using FreeBSD for about 4 yrs now. In fact I was using FreeBSD before I even heard about Linux. I love using this operating system and was weened on it while getting my CS degree. I must say after reading and reading for years that it is time to stop promoting the "we're following in the footsteps of Linux" spiel. Regardless of any truths or untruths to the statement. The article says things like this: Article: You might call FreeBSD the other Linux. Me: Then again, you might not. Article: Like Linux, FreeBSD is an operating system modeled after Unix. Me: Uh.. Like Greg Lehey says in "The Complete FreeBSD" 3rd Edition pg 9 bottom right, Linux is a kernel. I say, a complete Linux Distribution is like FreeBSD because FreeBSD is UNIX. Article: Hubbard says FreeBSD is content to be a follower, while Linux breaks the trail for free software. "We're letting them walk through eight feet of snow first, "Hubbard said. Penguins, it seems, are better at that sort of thing than demons. Me: I am not sure this kind of promotion is in anyway good for FreeBSD. I would rather not hear it at all, let alone over and over in every other article I read comparing FreeBSD and Linux. The longer FreeBSD promotes itself as second, the more burn-in of that statement will result. I must admit though, I dont talk to Oracle or make it to the West Coast for LinuxWorld, FreeBSDCons or Freenix events. I dont see it all like Jordan. He definetly has the big picture. I do think the above article statement is old and getting older. I would like to hear more positive things. I have seen Jordan make statements of how he thinks FreeBSD is the best operating system and how he doesnt think FreeBSD is getting the recognition it deserves. More of this kind of attitude and talk is what FreeBSD needs, not analogies to snow and Penguins no matter how funny penguins look. :) Foxfair Hu wrote: > > FYI: > > http://www.startribune.com/stOnLine/cgi-bin/article?thisSlug=TECB29 > > and Jordan said "we were the snobs!" *sneaking :p > > -Foxfair. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- \|/ (@ @) +-----------oOO----(_)-------------------+ | Mark S. Reichman | | reichman@twcny.rr.com | | Radar Tech/Oracle Developer/Programmer | +-------------------------oOO------------+ |__|__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 18:16:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86A31512A for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25354; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:14:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:13:49 -0600 To: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:57 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: >Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the >whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue and some of the complaints Brett >is raising. That's fine and healthy. >Why should we evangelize? What value is there in selling any Unix OS >to the Maudie Fricks of the world? The main value -- both socially and to users in particular -- is that their computers will be reliable and secure. Daily, I assist users whose Windows and NT systems have crashed, lost data, been penetrated and corrupted, etc. We are *all* hurt by this, as it raises the cost of goods and services and prevents businesses from serving us as well as possible. On a more individual level, it hurts people by destroying their work, eating their valuable time, and frustrating instead of assisting them. UNIX isn't an ideal operating system by any means, but it can certainly help this situation. >I can't see Unix on the desktop >(not even Linux) until some serious and large development effort and >dollars go into a no-brain interface that Maudie can use out of the >box. AIX failed at that, Solaris failed at that -- and so has every >other flavor of unix I know. None of the core teams nor the Linux >cadre are drawn to that aspect of Unix for the simple fact that Unix >has not been, nor is likely to be about the desktop and the point and >click user. Even Windows really isn't "about" the point-and-click user; it just seems to be initially. (Ultimately, the user needs to know a bit about what he or she is doing, just as you need to know where the gas cap is on a car. If you don't, the car will eventually stop.) But I am more optimistic about the development of GUIs for UNIX. I think we will soon see not one but several options which are usable by naive users. >Rather, Unix has been about more serious, working systems. I do not believe that working -- seriously well -- precludes user friendliness. >I run into >a large number of old farts in the Unix world who are still bitter >about Sun abandoning SunOS in favor of SYSVR4. Most have been in the >trenches and are delighted to know that BSD is still alive and well -- >most of them aren't too thrilled about Linux. Most of them don't deal >with toy systems, rather 24/7 mission critical systems and have a >tendency to judge quality systems by how often and when their pagers >go off. I agree with them. So do I, in fact. >The development model that appears to stiffle "creativity" and the >"sociology" -- both of which are null terms, as far as I can tell, is >precisely the model under which professional software is developed. The "sociology" to which ESR refers is not limited to the development model but embraces both the developers and the user community. In fact, it has MORE to do with marketing and advocacy than with development. There is no one model under which "professional software" is developed. >It's the model that makes all of the *BSDs a superior choice to the >haphazard phenomenon lumped under the umbrella of "Linux". One cannot infer cause and effect here. I am inclined to believe that it is 20 years of history -- including the development of consistent conventions and lots of tried and true, time tested code -- that gives BSD UNIX the edge. And the edge may go away if there aren't lots of enthusiastic eyeballs poring over the code and making improvements. >Word is >spreading and awareness is growing. Patience seems more appropriate >than zealotry. The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience" will only result in a continuation of this trend. >Most professionals are turned away by evangelical zeal I disagree with this opinion. In my experience, the professionals with whom I deal will only consider a new operating environment if many people with whom they come in contact STRONGLY recommend it. The BSDs' lack of strident evangelism makes it less likely that this will occur. On the other hand, Linux owes its runaway success to it. >-- they've seen >too much in the past, they won't buy it now. Surprisingly, they are >also skeptical of the availability of source -- they perceive it as an >invitation to intrusion as has been demonstrated so many times in the >past with Linux systems. Because the availability of source is common to both the BSDs and Linux, this is not a factor that would lead one to choose one over the other. However, open source is making a good name for itself in the area of security; on balance, administrators are coming to see it as a "pro" rather than a "con." >They are slow to embrace open source at the >OS level. Robust security and quality, though, makes open source more >desirable -- but security and quality are most important. If advocacy >makes us look like Linux, we will be rejected as no better than Linux. > >So the real queston is this: it's a long, slow process converting >professonals, True. (Though that's not a question. ;-) >and zealotry won't do it -- quality will. Advocacy ("zealotry" is your word, not mine) is also essential. Again, in my experience, repeated word-of-mouth recommendation -- STRONG recommendation, not a wimpy "oh, yeah, it's the other free UNIX, you might consider it too" -- is what sways professionals. So do other factors, such as marketing, certification, support after the sale, etc. > To whom would >you rather appeal; the professionals or the desktop crowd? Both. To frame it as "one or the other" is a false dilemma. >Sorry for my long winded 4 bits. No problem. These topics need discussing. Besides, this IS "chat." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 18:45: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701F01547B for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18397; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909010140.SAA18397@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:13:49 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:40:54 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while >I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of >Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience" >will only result in a continuation of this trend. You've said this repeatedly on many occasions, but I have yet to see from you one tiny shred of evidence to back it up. On the contrary, all of my numbers show that FreeBSD is growing rapidly - in fact, faster than Linux. This is despite the fact that Linux is apparantly making inroads into the desktop market. My numbers are real numbers based on product sales and download stats. You may think the numbers can be dismissed as being inaccurate for whatever reasons you may have, but WHERE are YOUR numbers? ...and why are you still trolling on the FreeBSD lists after switching some months ago to OpenBSD? I mean really...why don't you go pester them about their totally broken marketing efforts? They sure need it far more than we do. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 21:23:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt010nb9.san.rr.com [204.210.12.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8791509A for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24627; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37CCAA15.C7A22CC8@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:22:45 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0826 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Nelson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the > whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue Then please bring it up on -advocacy, and only there. Quite a few of us don't subscribe to that list on purpose. Thanks, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 21:40:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCB914D92 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18336.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.16]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA23311; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by ppp18415.on.bellglobal.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA99773; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:08:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:08:03 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass Cc: Foxfair Hu , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Message-ID: <19990831180803.A99505@ppp18415.on.bellglobal.com> Reply-To: hoek@FreeBSD.ORG References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 10:01:31AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 10:01:31AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > Actually, the most telling line in this article is a quote from Eric > Raymond, who says: [....] > ".... They got their sociology wrong." Either that, it's the when-you-have-a-hammer,-all-problems-are-nails syndrome. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 21:55:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82559150EB for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id XAA50352 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:53:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA01562 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:35:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:35:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >At 06:57 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > >>Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the >>whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue and some of the complaints Brett >>is raising. > >That's fine and healthy. I'm not so sure;) >>Why should we evangelize? What value is there in selling any Unix OS >>to the Maudie Fricks of the world? > >The main value -- both socially and to users in particular -- is that >their computers will be reliable and secure. Daily, I assist users >whose Windows and NT systems have crashed, lost data, been penetrated >and corrupted, etc. We are *all* hurt by this, as it raises the cost of >goods and services and prevents businesses from serving us as well as >possible. On a more individual level, it hurts people by destroying >their work, eating their valuable time, and frustrating instead of >assisting them. UNIX isn't an ideal operating system by any means, >but it can certainly help this situation. My experience is that users don't give a damn or care -- as long as they don't have to invest any effort. Nor do they want to deal wth the necessity of plugging in a network cable to make their system work. Their perception is more important than ther reality. OK -- this is admittedly a jaded view, but one I have confirmed more frequently than any other. From an admin point of view, I would prefer they use _some_ real OS, so I wouldn't have to walk all the way over to their machine to return configurations back to sane values, but that ain't gonna happen. [snip] >Even Windows really isn't "about" the point-and-click user; it just seems It's not? My experience asserts otherwise. Sorry. >to be initially. (Ultimately, the user needs to know a bit about what he or >she is doing, just as you need to know where the gas cap is on a car. If you Ahh... therein lies the rub. You are in the publishing industry. I've spent many years in nearly the same industry. From what I've seen produced, most users don't have a clue about what they're doing. "Good enough" was the phrase I heard over and over. How would any OS help them produce better quality? As a M$ promotional years ago promised, they'll be "professionals in an hour". Any Unix isn't likely to change their attitudes. >don't, the car will eventually stop.) > >But I am more optimistic about the development of GUIs for UNIX. I think >we will soon see not one but several options which are usable by naive >users. There's no question that the GUIS are getting fatter and fancier. But if you are to retain the power of X, how can you shield the users from the complexity of X? Conversely, how can you prevent the user from opening one of the potential vulnerabilities of X? Have you not heard, "... I didn't change anything, but it doesn't work."? Hell, users won't be happy until an OS can understand their intentions. Unix will _not_ be on the desktop until users are capable of understanding Unix. Sorry. >>Rather, Unix has been about more serious, working systems. > >I do not believe that working -- seriously well -- precludes user friendliness. Bull. If you have 10 choices, you only have 10*10 things to learn. If you have 1000 choices... Those of us who have come to rely on Unix have generally had a problem to solve that couldn't be solved otherwise and had a clear enough vision of the result to wade through the complexities. Do you seriously believe the average "user" out there cares enough to do the same? If you reduce the choices (aka user friendly) available in Unix, you reduce Unix (which you can certainly do;) But why? Why is it so essential that the casual user enjoy greater reliability when he surfs tits.com or turns out more "good enough" grocery store style publishing? What is gained by this "market" share? >>I run into >>a large number of old farts in the Unix world who are still bitter >>about Sun abandoning SunOS in favor of SYSVR4. Most have been in the >>trenches and are delighted to know that BSD is still alive and well -- >>most of them aren't too thrilled about Linux. Most of them don't deal >>with toy systems, rather 24/7 mission critical systems and have a >>tendency to judge quality systems by how often and when their pagers >>go off. I agree with them. > >So do I, in fact. Then how can you have it both ways? The development effort for this mythical user friendly GUI is many times the effort required to make a stable production system and, in my opinion, causes the same problems exhibited by M$. If they have failed to create a stable system with all their millions and snickers, what makes you think volunteers and enthusiasts can improve on that model? >>The development model that appears to stiffle "creativity" and the >>"sociology" -- both of which are null terms, as far as I can tell, is >>precisely the model under which professional software is developed. > >The "sociology" to which ESR refers is not limited to the development >model but embraces both the developers and the user community. In fact, >it has MORE to do with marketing and advocacy than with development. >There is no one model under which "professional software" is >developed. Probably true, but I haven't seen the Linux model used in the real world, yet. Again, I'm sorry if I'm jaded, but "advocacy" and "marketing" has meant, in the past, that I enjoy the unique opportunity of following behind to make the marketing lies come true. Brett, I'm sorry if my attitudes aren't very appealing, but my attitudes are more prevelant than you may realize. I don't like having to do the clean up, nor do many others. The reason that you are seeing resistance can be traced back to variations on that same attitude. >>It's the model that makes all of the *BSDs a superior choice to the >>haphazard phenomenon lumped under the umbrella of "Linux". > >One cannot infer cause and effect here. I am inclined to believe that >it is 20 years of history -- including the development of consistent >conventions and lots of tried and true, time tested code -- that gives >BSD UNIX the edge. And the edge may go away if there aren't lots of >enthusiastic eyeballs poring over the code and making improvements. Again, I disagree. It may be the difference of the worlds in which we each work, but from what I see, when someone invests a $1/4M in a system, the cost of the OS is pocket change. The criteria change. The basis for decision changes. Slick desktops don't amount to a tinker's damn. Think outside the box for a moment. Intel hardware is beginning to grow up. Major manufacturers are beginning to look at the higher end market, mission critical servers and data warehouses. Trust me when I tell you that they are paying attention to the free OSs and seeing them as a potential means of offloading development and maintenance costs. At the same time, they are furiously trying to learn how they can leverage the free OS hysteria (to which Linux has greatly contributed) into more profitable hardware sales. Seasoned admins are disenchanted with Linux, are looking for stable platforms and will go with which ever one won't get them out of bed at 2AM. They don't care whether it's free or not. The *BSDs are growing in the quiet corners. From my perspective, I would rather appeal to the professional admins than the Maudie fricks. [snip] >The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while >I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of >Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience" >will only result in a continuation of this trend. So what? Let Linux go for the desktop. Let them fail as M$ has done;) Why must we be Linux? >>Most professionals are turned away by evangelical zeal > >I disagree with this opinion. In my experience, the professionals with >whom I deal will only consider a new operating environment if many people >with whom they come in contact STRONGLY recommend it. The BSDs' lack of >strident evangelism makes it less likely that this will occur. On the >other hand, Linux owes its runaway success to it. You deal with different people, then. Most of the people with whom I deal are more motivated by what allows a good night's sleep. They don't give a damn whether it's Solaris, AIX, HPUX or any other OS as long as they don't get paged in the middle of the night or come in to find they've been cracked. _Now_, if they can find that reliability _with_ source and decent support, they pay attention. They've been disappointed with the Linux hoopla and are quitely turning back to the roots. The SunOS admins are beginning to come home now that the true BSD is back. True, some are going to one of the other BSD's, because FreeBSD doesn't run on their hardware, but that's not a bad thing. Please don't screw the pooch by turning BSD into an evangelical crusade that makes us look like Linux. >>-- they've seen >>too much in the past, they won't buy it now. Surprisingly, they are >>also skeptical of the availability of source -- they perceive it as an >>invitation to intrusion as has been demonstrated so many times in the >>past with Linux systems. > >Because the availability of source is common to both the BSDs and Linux, >this is not a factor that would lead one to choose one over the other. Of course not -- it leads them to reject both because of the bad experiences they've all heard from Linux. >However, open source is making a good name for itself in the area of >security; on balance, administrators are coming to see it as a "pro" >rather than a "con." Not in my world. Why not talk to the people who put 16 hours a day maintaining mission critical systems and then get paged in the middle of the night? They don't care nearly so much about open source as they do about reliability and security. If they can get that with open source, more the merrier, but most of the box office has shown that the stellar open source system has been the target of the most successful attacks. They don't put their butts on the line, no matter how many evangelists there are. [snip] >>So the real queston is this: it's a long, slow process converting >>professonals, > >True. (Though that's not a question. ;-) Yeah, OK, your right -- I've been dealing with users too much;) >>and zealotry won't do it -- quality will. > >Advocacy ("zealotry" is your word, not mine) is also essential. Again, >in my experience, repeated word-of-mouth recommendation -- STRONG >recommendation, not a wimpy "oh, yeah, it's the other free UNIX, you might >consider it too" -- is what sways professionals. So do other factors, >such as marketing, certification, support after the sale, etc. Brett, I'm sorry, I don't see that working in my world. 90% of the decisions boil down to what hardware and applications are supported. Management goes for price and sizzle, staff goes for whatever means a warm supper and a good nights sleep. If you really want to promote BSD, lobby the ISVs to deliver working _mission_ applications for FreeBSD and cede the desktop to whomever is foolish enough to chase that chimera. >> To whom would >>you rather appeal; the professionals or the desktop crowd? > >Both. To frame it as "one or the other" is a false dilemma. Excuse me? Not in my world. Where I work, there is a _strong_ distinction between the two. Most of the large manufacturers with whom I have contact view Linux as a passing fad and one they can leverage to generate more hardware sales and ultimately pull the IT infrastructure into their own OS and support. The real OS dollars are in support;) They don't really give a damn about the desktop. They're more interested in infrastructure and big iron. If we squawk like penguins and other assorted fowl, we will be considered in the same light and ultimately do more damage than good. If, on the other hand, we maintain a professional demeanor and product, we will continue to make inroads in the infrastructure and ultimately gain the respect and support of not only IT staff and management, but the manufacturers as well. IMHO, chasing the Linux hysteria is a very bad thing to do and a waste of the skill and effort that brought the BSDs to their current quality. Besides, the "big" names have used BSD code for years and will continue to do so. It's the BSD copyright that rolls by on commercial OS installs -- not Linux. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23: 3:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7693F1512C for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07842 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The ongoing Brett thread. Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:02:50 -0700 Message-ID: <7838.936165770@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org First, let me just say that since I don't subscribe to this list (too much noise), I haven't been following the discussions and don't really want to get sucked into any either; I'm too busy right now doing many of the things which Brett seems to feel I'm not doing to waste my time in an extended flame war. I'm also not sure if I even understand Brett's concerns about "Walnut Creek CDROM taking FreeBSD private" since that's nothing we've ever shown the slightest inclination to do and to even worry about such a thing happening strikes me as nothing short of paranoid. If one is frequently chased by little green aliens then one has every right to worry about them, but if one has never even SEEN a little green alien then it's probably rational to assume that it shouldn't rank high on one's list of personal worries. It has always been Walnut Creek CDROM's wish that FreeBSD be as open as possible, we've never made any bones about that fact, and we've even sneakily tried sending sample copies of our CDs to known pirates in Asia in hopes that they'd copy the heck out of the disks and spread them (and the FreeBSD cause) far and wide. Since that doesn't seem to have worked (the pirates are picky and only seem to go for the high-dollar value products), Bob and I are going to Japan, Hong Kong and China next month to try the more direct route. We want FreeBSD to cover the earth and we'll do whatever we can to make that happen. I also take issue with Brett's assertion that he's somehow single-handedly responsible for FreeBSD's recent exposure in the Linux market since that only a grave disservice to the time and energy that I and many others have invested in showing up at Linux conferences, participating in open source panels, going to the O'Reilly show, doing television interviews, writing articles for electronic and paper publications, etc etc. In fact, I can't recall seeing anything from Brett since the article in "Smart Reseller" and that was more than 8 months ago. I'm happy and even a little proud to say that my own recent efforts at doing PR have been far more timely and effective than anything I've seen recently from Brett, and I've every reason to be - I've worked damn hard at it lately! I'm also well aware that the Boston Globe interview I recent did was rather heavily slanted against us and I've already commented in -advocacy on how my words were taken out of context and otherwise heavily filtered by a journalist with a pre-existing agenda, but sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad. If I only did interviews with journalists I knew and trusted personally, I'd miss out on the many *positive* opportunities for good PR and I probably also wouldn't be in the Wall Street Journal this week (keep an eye open for that article, I think it's going to be everything that the Boston Globe article was not). I also hope to get a few inches in Byte Online this month and the 6 different magazine interviews I did in Japan (C Magazine, Unix User, Software Design, Linux magazine and the intro issue of the new "Linux/BSD" magazine) have all shown up in the July/August/September issues and appear to be quite good. My sincere thanks to the folks in Japan who organized that press tour and deserve a great deal of credit for establishing venues that I and Satoshi Asami were able to speak at. With their help, it went very well and was definitely worth our time. As Satoshi's experience also shows, I'm hardly the only one around here capable of doing PR and I encourage each and every one of you to "get on the stump" and take every opportunity you can to spread the word. Contrary to what was said earlier, I've also *never* objected to "linux style advocacy" and think that many of the things that Linux has done are quite obviously effective or we wouldn't be seeing the Linux penguin on everything from T-shirts to condoms. What I've only (and always) objected to was "attack advocacy", where one tries to score points for one's product by attacking the competition. I've also referred to this as "rabid advocacy" in the past and I've always been quite clear with Brett, in email and in person, that it's THIS I object to and really would regard as a step down to see done on the FreeBSD side. Even though it may generate what look like short-term gains to turn around and slam your competition, I think the long-term effects are only negative and there is always a large contingent of folks who *don't* react well to this kind of "advertising" and will, furthermore, never forget it if you do it so much as ONCE. When it comes to mud-slinging, memories are long and I think we've all worked too hard to have a reputation for more maturity and level-headedness than this. Sure, there is probably always some collection of angry teens out there who won't flock to your cause if you're not burning something or getting a gang together to go kick the other side's butts, but that kind of "action" is not our cup of tea and I prefer to leave the knife-fighting for the West Side Story fans and those who feel that they're not achieving something if they haven't kicked a few puppies before breakfast. I think we can do better than this, we HAVE done better than this, and we will CONTINUE to do better than this if I have anything at all to say about it. As David has already pointed out, FreeBSD is growing very rapidly right now, we're getting more "column inches" in the press than ever before and the health of the FreeBSD product line at Walnut Creek CDROM has never been better. These are certainly not the signs of a "dying effort", as our detractors so frequently love to claim, and this hardly seems like the time to try and pull defeat from the jaws of victory by turning to a non-productive and needlessly confrontrative stragegy when the current one IS working whether certain individuals choose to acknowledge the manifest truth of that or not. If people weren't paying attention then I wouldn't be in the position of having to actually turn down certain speaking engagements now due to having a surplus of them and only one body to be in a single place at a time. I also don't think I'd be getting invited to anywhere near as many linux shows and linux events (in which we're graciously invited to share the spotlight) if I chose to slam them out of some ill-defined and immature marketing ideal which substituted sheer volume for substance. As always, please keep an eye on the press page at www.freebsd.org for updates on FreeBSD in the press. Many of us are working very hard and racking up the frequent flier miles (to say nothing of jet lag) in the service of FreeBSD evangelism and the proof of our efforts is both very tangible and available for all to see, even if we aren't always as good as we should be at keeping the press page up to date (something for which I also share significant responsibility - I've been so busy, I haven't even had a chance to keep Mr. Koshy updated on my own interview schedule). I apologise for that and will work harder to keep everyone aware of the FreeBSD articles I manage to get into print, radio and television. I hope to see you all at FreeBSDCon '99! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [194.77.0.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839251522A for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:26:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: from klemm.gtn.com (pppak04.gtn.com [194.231.123.169]) by picalon.gun.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20810; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:26:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA35173; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:25:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:25:59 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: de-bsd-chat@DE.FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new songs (mp3) from our band ... Message-ID: <19990901082559.A34918@titan.klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE SMP X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi ! Please visit: http://www.freebsd.org/~andreas/64bits/ The next weeks we'll be working on sympathy for the devil (demon ;-) That could be a hit for the BSD audience ;-) What do you think ??? Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD Get new songs from our band: http://www.freebsd.org/~andreas/64bits/index.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23:34:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088A914C0C; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:34:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.167]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01532; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:28:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA11740; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:28:06 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:28:05 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: wosch@freebsd.org Subject: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23:43:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from forty-two.egroups.net (adsl-63-193-211-127.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.193.211.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D36914C0C for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@forty-two.egroups.net) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by forty-two.egroups.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id XAA87070; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:42:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:42:40 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 08:28:05AM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Approved: graham.spanier Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 08:28:05AM +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > Hi, > > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in my office! :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23:51:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDB89153B7 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27991; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:49:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990831233029.00a238a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:39:59 -0600 To: dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909010140.SAA18397@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:40 PM 8/31/99 -0700, David Greenman wrote: > >The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while > >I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of > >Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience" > >will only result in a continuation of this trend. > > You've said this repeatedly on many occasions, but I have yet to see from >you one tiny shred of evidence to back it up. There's plenty. Check out the various Internet host surveys, such as the one at http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/data/r.9904.txt: BSDs down, Linux up. Linux is, according to The Gartner Group, the only non-Microsoft operating system which is gaining market share. >On the contrary, all of my >numbers show that FreeBSD is growing rapidly - in fact, faster than Linux. >This is despite the fact that Linux is apparantly making inroads into the >desktop market. My numbers are real numbers based on product sales and >download stats. Walnut Creek's sales and downloads are unlikely to be an accurate reflection of the world at large. They are also likely to be biased in favor of FreeBSD, since there are many other sources for Linux. > ...and why are you still trolling on the FreeBSD lists Your message is a wonderful demonstration of some of the points I've made. In particular, your unwarranted personal attack, in the fragment above, is typical of what happens whenever anyone on these lists does not toe the party line and pretend that all is fine and dandy. It is also why I am concerned about supporting FreeBSD. >after switching some months ago to OpenBSD? Oh? And where did you dredge up this bit of misinformation? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 31 23:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FB8154B7 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA72170; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:57:15 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 08:28:05AM +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > Hi, > > > > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > > Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in > my office! :) Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., also in my office. ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 0: 4:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6639714D96 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28168; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:03:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901010019.047c57c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 01:01:22 -0600 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> References: <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings from Laramie, Wyoming, at LARIAT HQ. --Brett Glass At 11:57 PM 8/31/99 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 08:28:05AM +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > > > > Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in > > my office! :) > >Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., >also in my office. ;-) > > >Josef > >-- >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 0:22:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8322154D9 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA89920; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:20:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Jay Nelson Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Sep 1999 09:20:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jay Nelson's message of "Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:35:27 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson writes: > On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >At 06:57 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > > >Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the > > >whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue and some of the complaints Brett > > >is raising. > > That's fine and healthy. > I'm not so sure;) > [...] Please take this off -chat. Now. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC1815418 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17966 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010759.AAA17966@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. Josef -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E4D1545B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17992 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010759.AAA17992@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6B115487 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18030 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010800.BAA18030@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. Josef -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40901542A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA17977 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010759.AAA17977@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 00:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF4FE15490 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18044 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010800.BAA18044@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 1: 0:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5F715494 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA18062 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909010800.BAA18062@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 2:25:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3155614D7C for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 02:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00809 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 02:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 02:25:54 -0700 Message-ID: <804.936177954@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [Brett dribbles.. ] > >There's plenty. Check out the various Internet host surveys, such as the >one at http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/data/r.9904.txt: BSDs down, Linux up. >Linux is, according to The Gartner Group, the only non-Microsoft >operating system which is gaining market share. 1. Anyone looking at that first counter will be quickly struck by how, well, essentially lame it is - especially as it has one of the more unusual definitions of "BSD Family" I've ever seen. I also don't see how they calculate their own stats since if you look at the numbers they've posted, on 01/99 the "BSD Family" had 150961 entries and on 04/99 they had 186385 entries. This is a decline? Even so, their on stats engine also claims that its ability to "recognise" BSD OSes by whatever odd heuristic it uses has gone down between 1/99 and 4/99, making the numbers even less credible. 2. Elvis is, according to the National Enquirer, still alive and employed as a night manager at the EZ-Rest Truck Stop and Live Snake Show just 27 miles outside of Tempke, Arizona. Does this make it so? Probably not. Is the notoriously well clued-in Gartner Group's (NOT) claim that Linux is the only non-Microsoft OS to gain marketshare any more credible? Again, I seriously doubt it and the numbers just don't support them. We ARE gaining market share and that's easy to prove even if you don't care to accept Walnut Creek CDROM's marketing data. Just look at the number of FreeBSD newsgroup postings, or people camped out on #freebsd in IRC, or the number of FreeBSD downloads from the various mirror sites, or at just about any other publically available metric you'd care to examine. All, were you to actually take the time to graph them, show a steady increase. Yet because the Gartner Group says otherwise, you would have us believe that we should all just pack our tents and go home because a Large and Prestigious organization like the Gartner Group is never, ever wrong or biased in any way. Nope. Not them, not Mindcraft. Say Brett, I have this fine tower in Paris I think I can let you have for scrap at a very reasonable price since you're in the market! This "rebuttal" to David's comments makes me doubt your own credibility even more, if such is possible, and I am frankly both worried and curious that you could even be talking about "advocating FreeBSD" effectively when all you ever seem to do in public is slam it. This is an example of the kind of "boosterism" you want us all to get behind? Boy, with "positive role-models" like you, who needs enemies? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 2:54:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0A114D0A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 02:54:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA24136 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:53:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA41131; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:56:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:56:13 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 10:01:31AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > ESR is largely correct in this. FreeBSD's current development group does > chase away good people by requiring conformity and unquestioning assent; [...] Hey everyone, it's time for "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! Q. What is the comment Brett Glass makes most often on freebsd-chat ? A. We're losers, BSD sucks at PR, we chase people away, and we eat their grandhchildren. Brett, just stick a URL in the bottom of your mail, like: It'll save bandwidth and keep us from having to point out that THIS BELONGS ON ADVOCACY AND NOT ON FUCKING -CHAT! -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 6:38:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092B014DA5 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01821; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:38:02 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Phil Regnauld Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Phil Regnauld wrote: > Hey everyone, it's time for > > "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! > > Q. What is the comment Brett Glass makes most often on freebsd-chat ? > > A. We're losers, BSD sucks at PR, we chase people away, and we eat > their grandhchildren. A1. I'm leaving this list and will never be back. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 8:36: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A25152B9 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 08:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF5A3658; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:15:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Phil Regnauld Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, Brett left -advocacy - don't encourage him to come back! On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:56:13 +0200 > From: Phil Regnauld > To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? > SNIP! > > It'll save bandwidth and keep us from having to point out that THIS > BELONGS ON ADVOCACY AND NOT ON FUCKING -CHAT! > > > -- > Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 9:26: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEB8314D07 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA33503; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:25:33 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990901092533.C33057@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net>; from GReg Sutter on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, GReg Sutter wrote: > > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > > Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in > my office! :) Greetings from Pasadena, in the sub-basement of the astronomy department at Caltech, at California and Wilson. At least it's not the sub-sub-basement, or the solar shaft. -- Matthew Hunt * Inertia is a property http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * of matter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 9:36:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F5115461 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 48C3F421D; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35CD79C16; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:35:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: <19990901092533.C33057@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: :On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, GReg Sutter wrote: : :> > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! :> :> Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in :> my office! :) : :Greetings from Pasadena, in the sub-basement of the astronomy :department at Caltech, at California and Wilson. Greets from NASA LaRC. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 9:48:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08ECE14DA5 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:48:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04285; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16156; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909011646.MAA16156@sable.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jamie Bowden Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Gregory Sutter , Matthew Hunt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: > >:On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, GReg Sutter wrote: >: >:> > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! >:> >:> Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in >:> my office! :) >: >:Greetings from Pasadena, in the sub-basement of the astronomy >:department at Caltech, at California and Wilson. > > Greets from NASA LaRC. > > Jamie Bowden Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. --- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10: 0: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159EF154E1 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from fieldeng (fieldeng.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:56:43 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990901125726.02f9b0b0@cstone.net> X-Sender: highway@cstone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 12:57:26 -0400 To: John Baldwin From: Sean Michael Whipkey Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909011646.MAA16156@sable.cc.vt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:46 PM 9/1/99 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of >the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. Greetings from Charlottesville, VA, in the home of Cornerstone Networks, C-ville's biggest ISP and a large user of FreeBSD. :-) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Cornerstone Networks Engineering - highway@cstone.net Report received spam to: spam-report@cstone.net with the full headers Cornerstone Networks - 804.817.7000 or 800.325.9848 - http://www.cstone.net I'm a good person. It's the Internet's fault! - http://www.sluggy.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10: 1: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70060154F2 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id SAA24896 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:59:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id TAA43939; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990901190212.17889@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:02:12 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) References: <199909011646.MAA16156@sable.cc.vt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199909011646.MAA16156@sable.cc.vt.edu>; from John Baldwin on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:46:16PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10: 8: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl (schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.238.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5177D15A4B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from wit395301.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.235.121]:33543 "EHLO vangelderen.org" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl with ESMTP id ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:07:21 +0200 Message-ID: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:06:08 +0200 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Regnauld Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld wrote: > [...] > > Hey everyone, it's time for > > "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html --J -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10: 8: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C9A15A73 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:07:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14677; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:08 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01690; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:07:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990901125726.02f9b0b0@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings from the corner of Tucows Flint office. Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > At 12:46 PM 9/1/99 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > >Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > >the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > Greetings from Charlottesville, VA, in the home of Cornerstone Networks, > C-ville's biggest ISP and a large user of FreeBSD. :-) > > SeanMike > > -- > SeanMike Whipkey - Cornerstone Networks Engineering - highway@cstone.net > Report received spam to: spam-report@cstone.net with the full headers > Cornerstone Networks - 804.817.7000 or 800.325.9848 - http://www.cstone.net > I'm a good person. It's the Internet's fault! - http://www.sluggy.com > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:13:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A956615392 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA14957 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:11:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01717 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:11:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:11:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Procmail. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with important stuff from employees and bosses. Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:13:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211761552E for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA15014; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:12:28 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01722; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:12:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:12:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org heh Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > Phil Regnauld wrote: > > [...] > > > > Hey everyone, it's time for > > > > "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! > > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html > > --J > -- > Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 09E73150FA; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEED11CD8BA; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:16:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Smc659@aol.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StarOffice giveaway of source code In-Reply-To: <8a24adf3.24fe9e65@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 Smc659@aol.com wrote: > Heres what suns web page says: > > "Our aim is to .com office productivity. We are publishing the StarOffice ^^^^^^^ Now there's a verb I hadn't seen before. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:19:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B66150B6 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA47158; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:17:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:17:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Sean Michael Whipkey Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990901125726.02f9b0b0@cstone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: > At 12:46 PM 9/1/99 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > >Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > >the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > Greetings from Charlottesville, VA, in the home of Cornerstone Networks, > C-ville's biggest ISP and a large user of FreeBSD. :-) Oh yeah! Well, hi from Radford - proud home of my 2 FreeBSD machines and soon to be a SPARC NetBSD box. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:20:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0FD6150B6 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:9741 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:20:30 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:20:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) In-Reply-To: <19990901190212.17889@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > John Baldwin writes: > > > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the > Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. Greetings from the second floor of my house in Toronto, Canada! Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:30:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl (schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.238.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC9A14C9F; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:30:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from wit395301.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.235.121]:34311 "EHLO vangelderen.org" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl with ESMTP id ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:28:52 +0200 Message-ID: <37CD620B.DDD47A5B@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:27:39 +0200 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, wosch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wolfram Schneider wrote: > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! Greetings from Ol'Ta, The Valley, Anguilla BWI ;-) Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D867A14D11 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p7es11a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.235.127] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11MEON-0004TH-00; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:41:52 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00492; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:34:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:34:14 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Alex Perel Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Message-ID: <19990901183414.F283@marder-1> References: <19990901190212.17889@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Perel on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:20:15PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:20:15PM -0400, Alex Perel wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > > > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > > > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > > > Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the > > Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. > > Greetings from the second floor of my house in Toronto, Canada! > Greetings from the ground (US:first) floor of my house in Chippenham, England > Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 > veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com > > Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD > == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:45:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terrapin.ru.ac.za (terrapin.ru.ac.za [146.231.128.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C184914C18 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:45:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@mithrandr.moria.org) Received: from duca.dialup.ru.ac.za ([146.231.98.24] helo=mithrandr.moria.org) by terrapin.ru.ac.za with esmtp (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11MERp-0008Fj-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:45:29 +0200 Received: (qmail 57576 invoked by uid 1001); 1 Sep 1999 16:23:05 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:23:05 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes Message-ID: <19990901182305.D55125@mithrandr.moria.org> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <199908281738.KAA05273@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrzej Bialecki on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:40:13PM +0200 Organization: Rhodes University Computer Users' Society X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 1999-09-01 (16:40), Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > :I vote for two spaces after the period before the start of a new sentence. > > :Even in the digital age, I've always found that the two spaces make > > > I guess they don't teach manual typewriting classes any more :-) > > It *had* to be two spaces or you got seriously marked down! > > Doesn't apply here in Europe. I vote against putting in too much > stars&stripes dependent stuff... ;-) I was about to mention something about Britain, but I suppose we can't go about calling them European. (: And (at least in my school, which tries its best to appear British and colonial, and more recently my university) here in .za the convention persists. Of course, we could, like me, just never use more than one sentence per paragraph (making sure we use the correct conjunctions), which has always caused havoc in my brief involvement in user education and documentation. I'd also like to advocate the return of the semi-colon; it is underused. (Follow-ups to -chat) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:45:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7EF14E13 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p7es11a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.235.127] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11MERv-0005HB-00; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:45:31 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00509; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:37:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:37:54 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Arthur H. Johnson II" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. Message-ID: <19990901183754.G283@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Arthur H. Johnson II on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: > I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to > seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my > mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with > important stuff from employees and bosses. > So, if I set up procmail can I use it to grab my e-mail from a POP3 server (dial-up ISP account)? I could do with a setup like this instead of just having mutt stuff it all in /var/mail/mark. Do you know any URL's related to procmail? Thanks > Arthur H. Johnson II > http://www.linuxberg.com > Linuxberg Manager > arthur@tucows.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:49:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393BC14C11 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05480; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:51:19 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06308; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:47:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html Prominently bookmarked in Netscape. -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:51:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mwhq.mead.com (mwhq.mead.com [38.231.129.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B0A14C18 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from CP4@mead.com) Received: by mwhq.mead.com; id NAA23259; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:51:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Received: from unknown(10.20.2.118) by mwhq.mead.com via smap (4.1) id xma023054; Wed, 1 Sep 99 13:50:50 -0400 Received: by dayton2.mead.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.4 (830.2 3-23-1999)) id 852567DF.00625BE7 ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:54:20 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MEAD To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:54:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings from the second floor of the Mead Coated Board building in Phenix City, AL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 10:51:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01AD14C18 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:51:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA17387; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:51:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03007; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:51:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:51:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. In-Reply-To: <19990901183754.G283@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I acutally use Fetchmail to get the email and use procmail to filter everything into readable folders. Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: > > I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to > > seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my > > mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with > > important stuff from employees and bosses. > > > > So, if I set up procmail can I use it to grab my e-mail from a POP3 > server (dial-up ISP account)? I could do with a setup like this > instead of just having mutt stuff it all in /var/mail/mark. Do you > know any URL's related to procmail? > > Thanks > > > Arthur H. Johnson II > > http://www.linuxberg.com > > Linuxberg Manager > > arthur@tucows.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 11:56:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8152B1557F for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05018; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:49:24 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06262; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:45:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 13:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Phil Regnauld Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > Phil Regnauld wrote: >> [...] >> >> Hey everyone, it's time for >> >> "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! > > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html Prominently bookmarked on Netscape. :-) -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 12:13: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A6F154DA; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16906; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37CD7B68.19DD8B09@owp.csus.edu> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:15:52 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wosch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > Hi, > > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > > -- > Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org Greetings from my office on the 5th floor of the ECS building at CSU Sacramento. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 12:48:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792551550B; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:48:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: from yedi.iaf.nl (uucp@localhost) by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with UUCP id VAA31738; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:26:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA08764; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:44:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from wilko) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199909011644.SAA08764@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes In-Reply-To: from Aled Morris at "Sep 1, 1999 4:50:54 pm" To: aledm@routers.co.uk (Aled Morris) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Cc: abial@webgiro.com, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, mpp@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-pgp-info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Aled Morris wrote ... > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > >On Sat, 28 Aug 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > > >> :> I've never heard of that. I've always found that two spaces > >> :> after end-of-sentence punctuation makes things easier to read! > >> : > >> :I vote for two spaces after the period before the start of a new sentence. > >> :Even in the digital age, I've always found that the two spaces make > > > >> I guess they don't teach manual typewriting classes any more :-) > >> It *had* to be two spaces or you got seriously marked down! > > > >Doesn't apply here in Europe. I vote against putting in too much > >stars&stripes dependent stuff... ;-) > > > >Andrzej Bialecki > > It does apply in the UK - two spaces is pretty standard. I guess this > isn't an Americanism (for once!) So, it is probably an Anglicism. It is definitely non-standard in the Netherlands. My touch typing lessons dictated 1 space. W/ -- | / o / / _ Arnhem, The Netherlands - Powered by FreeBSD - |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 12:52: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10F4C15B55 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 12:52:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from poirot.umd.edu (poirot.umd.edu [128.8.10.129]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA09066; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by poirot.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA02661; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:51:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: poirot.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:51:57 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@poirot.umd.edu To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html Was that done according to FDP standards? Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 13: 4:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl (schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.238.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111F914EA5 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from wit395301.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.235.121]:9480 "EHLO vangelderen.org" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl with ESMTP id ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:03:54 +0200 Message-ID: <37CD8661.D8A02A39@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:02:41 +0200 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html > > Was that done according to FDP standards? Dunno. But it's valid HTML 4.0 Strict ;-p Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 13:49:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DFB15AD2 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pf9s08a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.232.250] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11MHIu-00085H-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:48:24 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id VAA00402 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:40:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:40:46 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Matrix screensaver Message-ID: <19990901214046.B278@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Saw this in -current. Andrzej Bialecki has written a Matrix screensaver (the streams of green characters cascading down the screen) for the console. Looks good. d/l the binaries and source from: http://www.freebsd.org/~abial/matrix_3.2.tgz http://www.freebsd.org/~abial/matrix_4.0.tgz (the 3.2 version works fine on 3.1 too) -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 13:49:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261AA15B22 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:49:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (planetx-1-175.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.142.177]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id PAA19314; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:49:29 -0500 Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20A8A0; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:49:44 -0500 (CDT) To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:34:14 BST." <19990901183414.F283@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 15:49:44 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990901204944.B20A8A0@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <19990901183414.F283@marder-1>, Mark Ovens wrote: } Greetings from the ground (US:first) floor of my house in Chippenham, England ``Ground floor'' is also in common use in the US. Saying ``ground floor'' will confuse very few people here, whereas the phrase ``knocked me up'' has a completely different meaning here and may get you either blank stares or gasps of astonishment :) -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 13:57: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [195.147.248.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A4B415A16 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:56:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pf9s08a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.232.250] helo=marder-1.) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11MHQp-000805-00; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:56:35 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id VAA00472; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:48:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:48:56 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Jon Hamilton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Message-ID: <19990901214856.C278@marder-1> References: <19990901183414.F283@marder-1> <19990901204944.B20A8A0@woodstock.monkey.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990901204944.B20A8A0@woodstock.monkey.net>; from Jon Hamilton on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:49:44PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:49:44PM -0500, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > In message <19990901183414.F283@marder-1>, Mark Ovens wrote: > > } Greetings from the ground (US:first) floor of my house in Chippenham, England > > ``Ground floor'' is also in common use in the US. Saying ``ground floor'' > will confuse very few people here, When I visited the US (OK, it was 19 years ago) it always seemed to be called the first floor. > whereas the phrase ``knocked me up'' > has a completely different meaning here and may get you either blank > stares or gasps of astonishment :) > I presume you mean in the context of "...knocked on the door and woke me up". It also has another meaning, although the woman concerned would be unlikely to describe it that way. Of course the phrase "Can I bum a fag" *most definitely* has different meanings here and there ;-) > -- > Jon Hamilton > hamilton@pobox.com > > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14: 1:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AB315529 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from frost.umd.edu (frost.umd.edu [128.8.10.186]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09527; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by frost.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA04042; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:00:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: frost.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:00:01 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@frost.umd.edu To: Mark Ovens Cc: Jon Hamilton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) In-Reply-To: <19990901214856.C278@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Of course the phrase "Can I bum a fag" *most definitely* has > different meanings here and there ;-) I'll bite, what does that mean? :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14: 9:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from topsecret.net (gill.apk.net [207.54.148.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 28DCA15529 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gill@topsecret.net) Received: from stumpy by topsecret.net with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:05:31 -0400 From: "James Gill" To: "Mark Ovens" , Subject: RE: Matrix screensaver Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:05:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <19990901214046.B278@marder-1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@freebsd.org X-Return-Path: gill@topsecret.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rad. the text-only monitor i'm using needed something better than star now if i can just find a green one to replace the orange one, i'll be able to provide my callers with "an exit" --gill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mark Ovens > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 4:41 PM > To: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Matrix screensaver > > > Saw this in -current. > > Andrzej Bialecki has written a Matrix screensaver (the streams of > green characters cascading down the screen) for the console. Looks > good. > > d/l the binaries and source from: > > http://www.freebsd.org/~abial/matrix_3.2.tgz > http://www.freebsd.org/~abial/matrix_4.0.tgz > > (the 3.2 version works fine on 3.1 too) > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14:22:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A4D15BCF for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:21:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05410; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:20:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 15:20:19 -0600 To: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: >>That's fine and healthy. >I'm not so sure;) Why not? Controversy is good. Aristotle, way back in ancient Greece, recognized that the dialectic -- argument and discussion -- is what leads to progress and to knowledge. >My experience is that users don't give a damn or care -- as long as >they don't have to invest any effort. Nor do they want to deal wth the >necessity of plugging in a network cable to make their system work. >Their perception is more important than ther reality. UNIX is better equipped to provide this than any other operating system currently available, because it is better at self-maintenance. > >Even Windows really isn't "about" the point-and-click user; it just seems > >It's not? My experience asserts otherwise. Sorry. If you've dealt with Windows users, you should see why Windows doesn't really help the point-and-click user. It gives the illusion that everything is working fine while cruft -- useless files, leaked memory, etc. -- piles up in the background. Then, finally, BOOM! -- the system fails. This is not a service to the user. >Ahh... therein lies the rub. You are in the publishing industry. No, I'm not. I'm a hacker, freelance writer, electrical engineer, chip designer, musician, rental property manager -- and a few other things besides. >I've >spent many years in nearly the same industry. From what I've seen >produced, most users don't have a clue about what they're doing. "Good >enough" was the phrase I heard over and over. How would any OS help >them produce better quality? By working reliably. Wordsmiths don't need fancy graphics; they need reliable ways of writing and communicating words. >>But I am more optimistic about the development of GUIs for UNIX. I think > >we will soon see not one but several options which are usable by naive > >users. > >There's no question that the GUIS are getting fatter "Fatness" is not necessarily an asset. >and fancier. Neither is fanciness. >But >if you are to retain the power of X, how can you shield the users from >the complexity of X? Actually, one of the things that has most hobbled UNIX's mainstream acceptance is that its default GUIs are based on X. X was designed with the wrong priorities for today's computing models (i.e. for situations where bandwidth and CPU speed are infinite and memory is expensive) and has viciously tricky APIs. >>I do not believe that working -- seriously well -- precludes user friendliness. >Bull. If you have 10 choices, you only have 10*10 things to learn. If >you have 1000 choices... "Choices" != "working." >If you reduce the choices (aka user friendly) available in Unix, you >reduce Unix (which you can certainly do;) But why? You don't need to reduce the choices in UNIX; only in the naive user's environment. >>The "sociology" to which ESR refers is not limited to the development > >model but embraces both the developers and the user community. In fact, > >it has MORE to do with marketing and advocacy than with development. > >There is no one model under which "professional software" is > >developed. > >Probably true, but I haven't seen the Linux model used in the real >world, yet. That's because it produces unpredictable results. Development proceeds in fits and starts, and progress is chaotic and nonlinear. (Not good when you have to ship products and have customers relying on you.) But then, the FreeBSD development process has this trait too. [...] >Think outside the box for a moment. It's the fact that I am "thinking outside the box" that's causing some people on this list to flame and/or attempt to ridicule me. Novel ideas -- or even obvious ones that a group has programmed itself to ignore (e.g. emperors not wearing clothes) -- often provoke that response in this forum. As this discussion continues, expect people to make all sorts of excuses to shut it off before it goes anywhere. They'll range from "this is off-topic" (even though there's nothing that's really "off-topic" on a "chat" mailing list) to "I'm unsubscribing" to the unfounded accusation that "Brett is bashing FreeBSD" (which I am not). Anything to squelch the discussion or avoid listening! >Intel hardware is beginning to >grow up. Major manufacturers are beginning to look at the higher end >market, mission critical servers and data warehouses. Trust me when I >tell you that they are paying attention to the free OSs and seeing >them as a potential means of offloading development and maintenance >costs. At the same time, they are furiously trying to learn how they >can leverage the free OS hysteria (to which Linux has greatly >contributed) into more profitable hardware sales. All true enough. >Seasoned admins are disenchanted with Linux, Not true. More are going to Linux than to the BSDs, for all kinds of reasons: better PR, the notion that since Linux has more market share it will be better supported, the availability of certification programs, highly capitalized vendors (e.g. Red Hat), etc. >are looking for stable >platforms and will go with which ever one won't get them out of bed at >2AM. Linux, while technically inferior to the BSDs, meets that criterion well enough for many. >They don't care whether it's free or not. The *BSDs are growing >in the quiet corners. From my perspective, I would rather appeal to >the professional admins than the Maudie fricks. I see such an attitude as unwarranted snobbery. Everyone needs more reliable software. >>The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while > >I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of > >Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience" > >will only result in a continuation of this trend. > >So what? Let Linux go for the desktop. Let them fail as M$ has done;) >Why must we be Linux? I did not say that the BSDs must *be* Linux, but rather that Linux is usurping BSD's proper place in both the desktop *and* server markets. This is occurring due to poor marketing and promotion and a failure to establish effective evangelism. > >I disagree with this opinion. In my experience, the professionals with > >whom I deal will only consider a new operating environment if many people > >with whom they come in contact STRONGLY recommend it. The BSDs' lack of > >strident evangelism makes it less likely that this will occur. On the > >other hand, Linux owes its runaway success to it. > >You deal with different people, then. Most of the people with whom I >deal are more motivated by what allows a good night's sleep. And they will be told, by more people and more emphatically, that Linux will allow them a good night's sleep. Perhaps before they ever HEAR of FreeBSD. >They've been disappointed with the Linux hoopla and are quitely >turning back to the roots. Very few are actually disappointed with the "Linux hoopla." Again, while Linux is technically inferior to the BSDs, it is reliable enough to allow lots of sleep. It's certainly light years ahead of NT. >>> To whom would > >>you rather appeal; the professionals or the desktop crowd? > > > >Both. To frame it as "one or the other" is a false dilemma. > >Excuse me? Not in my world. Where I work, there is a _strong_ >distinction between the two. The distinction is an artifact of history. It exists only because Microsoft Windows overwhelmingly dominates the desktop (and is the exclusive platform for the most popular productivity applications) but is not reliable enough for the server space. Users and administrators alike fervently wish that they could run one OS on both. This is driving the acceptance of NT, alas, and will continue to do so until UNIX is competitive on the desktop. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14:24:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E6271554E for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05437; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901152145.047b4d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 15:22:16 -0600 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:20 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Please take this off -chat. Now. It's appropriate for -chat. It covers many areas, not just advocacy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14:25:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from penelope.skunk.org (penelope.skunk.org [208.133.204.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0781F14EBB for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@penelope.skunk.org) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by penelope.skunk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10201 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:55:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben Rosengart To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes In-Reply-To: <19990901182305.D55125@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > I'd also like to advocate the return of the semi-colon; it is > underused. Not in my writing; in fact, I sometimes have to make a conscious effort not to overuse it. -- Ben UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group StarMedia Network, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 14:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [195.147.248.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C246714C83 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pc5s07a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.231.198] helo=marder-1.) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11MIFI-0000Ho-00; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:48:44 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id WAA00599; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:41:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:41:07 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: James Howard Cc: Jon Hamilton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Message-ID: <19990901224107.D278@marder-1> References: <19990901214856.C278@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from James Howard on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:00:01PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:00:01PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Of course the phrase "Can I bum a fag" *most definitely* has > > different meanings here and there ;-) > > I'll bite, what does that mean? :) > "Can I scrounge a cigarette" > Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:14:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450DC14F71 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19346; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:14:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:14:18 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Ben Rosengart Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please review: rc file changes Message-ID: <19990901171418.D18814@futuresouth.com> References: <19990901182305.D55125@mithrandr.moria.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Ben Rosengart on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:55:30PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:55:30PM -0400, a little birdie told me that Ben Rosengart remarked > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > I'd also like to advocate the return of the semi-colon; it is > > underused. > > Not in my writing; in fact, I sometimes have to make a conscious effort > not to overuse it. I second the movement. Semicolons are a wonderful tool, which I use left and right; I don't think it's possible to overuse them. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:14:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5ECD14F71 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA19249; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:12:56 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:12:56 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) Message-ID: <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:20:19PM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:20:19PM -0600, a little birdie told me that Brett Glass remarked > > Why not? Controversy is good. Aristotle, way back in ancient Greece, > recognized that the dialectic -- argument and discussion -- is what > leads to progress and to knowledge. Aristotle did this to forward a personal agenda and complete the burial of the Sophists. However, we stray from the necessary flameage, so for the sake of completeness, 'Your mother was a hamster...' -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:47: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBF41555C for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06227; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:44:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:43:10 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... In-Reply-To: <804.936177954@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:25 AM 9/1/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >1. Anyone looking at that first counter will be quickly struck by how, > well, essentially lame it is - especially as it has one of the more > unusual definitions of "BSD Family" I've ever seen. The definition of "BSD Family" follows from the results returned by queso, the program used to do the survey. They could have used nmap, but nmap soaks up much more bandwidth. > I also don't > see how they calculate their own stats since if you look at the numbers > they've posted, on 01/99 the "BSD Family" had 150961 entries and on > 04/99 they had 186385 entries. This is a decline? In market share. Look at the numbers. > Even so, their > on stats engine also claims that its ability to "recognise" BSD > OSes by whatever odd heuristic it uses has gone down between 1/99 > and 4/99, making the numbers even less credible. The heuristic wasn't that odd. It's just that it was catching systems with BSD-based TCP/IP stacks -- OS/2 systems, for example. Fortunately, there are so few OS/2 systems on the Net as to make this a minor problem. >2. Elvis is, according to the National Enquirer, still alive and > employed as a night manager at the EZ-Rest Truck Stop and Live > Snake Show just 27 miles outside of Tempke, Arizona. Does this > make it so? Probably not. Straw man argument. > Is the notoriously well clued-in > Gartner Group's (NOT) claim that Linux is the only non-Microsoft OS > to gain marketshare any more credible? Yes. They're paid big bucks and are in a fiercely competitive market where customers demand accuracy. >Again, I seriously doubt > it and the numbers just don't support them. We ARE gaining market > share No. The installed base appears to be growing, slowly. But an increase in numbers does not necessarily indicate an increase in market share. Even David G., whose projections of FreeBSD's growth seem to me to be overly optimistic, admits that the gap between Linux and FreeBSD is growing. On April 15th of this year, he wrote: >FreeBSD has in the past and continues >to grow at nearly the _exact_ same exponential growth curve that Linux has; >we're just about 2 years behind them and considering that they actually started >two years before FreeBSD was formed, this should come as no surprise. It's >definately not an even playing field and Linux clearly has a time advantage. I disagree with David's contention that FreeBSD is growing at "the same exponential growth rate that Linux has," but let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that this is the case. If the growth factor for both is g, then each will have g times the installed base than it did the year before. Now, it doesn't take a mathematician to realize that, in David's model, the GAP between the sizes of the user bases also grows by a factor of g every year. In fact, the larger g is, the more Linux pulls ahead. Simple math. What's more, if you assume that the total number of users of ALL OSes is increasing at a uniform rate, FreeBSD's market share MUST decline relative to that of Linux. Why? Because, having fewer users, its market share is impacted more by the user bases of other OSes. And this is using David's assumptions and figures, which are not based on scientifically sampled data and are likely to be overoptimistic. The large and exponentially growing gap between FreeBSD and Linux is a serious problem. >This "rebuttal" to David's comments makes me doubt your own >credibility even more, if such is possible, and I am frankly both >worried and curious that you could even be talking about "advocating >FreeBSD" effectively when all you ever seem to do in public is slam >it. No, Jordan, I do not "slam" FreeBSD or BSD UNIX in general, and you should not attempt to discredit me by making this false claim. I do carefully critique the way in which BSD UNIX in general is being marketed, promoted, and evangelized. > This is an example of the kind of "boosterism" you want us all to >get behind? Boy, with "positive role-models" like you, who needs >enemies? Advocacy is more than just being a "booster" or shouting "Rah! Rah!" on the sidelines. It also involves identifying problems and solving them. It seems as if some of the members of this list would rather shoot the messenger than deal with FreeBSD's problems in the area of marketing and evangelism. Recognition of the problem -- which even according to David's numbers is growing exponentially -- is necessary before right action can be taken. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:49:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69B9155A6 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06285; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:49:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901164402.047b2650@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:47:49 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? In-Reply-To: <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:56 AM 9/1/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Hey everyone, it's time for > > "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! > > Q. What is the comment Brett Glass makes most often on freebsd-chat ? > > A. We're losers, BSD sucks at PR, we chase people away, and we eat > their grandhchildren. This is an example of another endemic problem in the FreeBSD community: Dissent is not tolerated. In the above, you attempt to mischaracterize what I say so as to give yourself, and others, a (lame) excuse to dismiss it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:51:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BFC1557A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06296; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901164801.047ec220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:48:45 -0600 To: jack , Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:38 AM 9/1/99 -0400, jack wrote: > A1. I'm leaving this list and will never be back. Another example of an attempt to "shun" anyone who does not toe the party line. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:54:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE1F15AFF for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06352; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:54:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:52:40 -0600 To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I find it hard to believe that anyone would have nothing better to do than to post a defamatory Web page in an attempt to shout down the slightest rumbling of dissent -- but there you have it. This page reflects very badly on the poster and on the maturity level of those involved. --Brett Glass At 07:06 PM 9/1/99 +0200, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: >Phil Regnauld wrote: > > [...] > > > > Hey everyone, it's time for > > > > "The freebsd-chat FAQ" ! > >http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html > >--J >-- >Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:55:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BD315588 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id AAA14759 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:55:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 57EBA8711; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:49:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:49:01 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902004901.A33289@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:57:15PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5543 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Josef Grosch: > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > also in my office. ;-) Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 15:56: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFEB415581 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 15:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id AAA14760 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:55:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 13A3F8711; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:52:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:52:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Message-ID: <19990902005218.B33289@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <804.936177954@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <804.936177954@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 02:25:54AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5543 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > Nope. Not them, not Mindcraft. Say Brett, I have this fine tower > in Paris I think I can let you have for scrap at a very reasonable > price since you're in the market! Hey, Jordan, you already want to sell this fine tower I sold you one month ago? Didn't you liked it? :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16: 1:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl (schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.238.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E204015A6A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:01:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from wit395301.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.235.121]:34568 "EHLO vangelderen.org" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl with ESMTP id ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:01:38 +0200 Message-ID: <37CDB007.7F798F1A@vangelderen.org> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 01:00:23 +0200 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > I find it hard to believe that anyone would have nothing better > to do than to post a defamatory Web page in an attempt to shout down > the slightest rumbling of dissent -- but there you have it. This > page reflects very badly on the poster and on the maturity level of > those involved. Judging on the number of positive reactions (12 so far) I think the time was rather well-spent ;-p Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org - JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:10:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.idiotswitch.org (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C271A14D9D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: from a11.idiotswitch.org (a11.idiotswitch.org [10.0.0.11]) by www.idiotswitch.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 64943A4; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:12:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Rod Taylor To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:05:26 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99090119093901.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm mildly interested in what you consider these to be. Can we fix these problems? Are they problems, or choices with long term payoffs rather than immediate. Does FreeBSD want a larger userbase, afterall... With the good, comes the bad. Rather than defending your yet to be shared thoughts. Please discuss, with me if noone else, just what we can do. And, I suggest you ignore the overly negative feedback, and consider only the constructive feedback. Perhaps one of the user groups could use your thoughts to help spread it throughout their area as a test base. If it accomplishes what is wanted, then the project is expanded. If not, it's confined to that area or stopped should the results be negative. I make the assumption your plan is feasible. On Wed, 01 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Advocacy is more than just being a "booster" or shouting "Rah! Rah!" on the > sidelines. It also involves identifying problems and solving them. It seems > as if some of the members of this list would rather shoot the messenger than > deal with FreeBSD's problems in the area of marketing and evangelism. Recognition > of the problem -- which even according to David's numbers is growing > exponentially -- is necessary before right action can be taken. -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -J. Edgar Hoover (contributed by Chris Johnston) -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B971115ACD for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06583; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:12:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901170732.04847ea0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:11:02 -0600 To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37CDB007.7F798F1A@vangelderen.org> References: <37CB916C12C.56BBFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost> <19990901115613.00503@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:00 AM 9/2/99 +0200, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: >Judging on the number of positive reactions (12 so far) I think the >time was rather well-spent ;-p In short, you and a handful of others (though I doubt that there were actually 12 of them) are gloating over a personal attack that proves nothing. Again, a demonstration of a serious problem within the group. When the status quo and conformity are valued over all else, it means trouble. Ditto when someone is attacked for attempting to inject a bit of reality. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:25:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A350B14E2C for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-209.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.209]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA18081 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:23:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37CDB582.FBD048D4@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:23:46 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) References: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CP4@mead.com wrote: > > Greetings from the second floor of the Mead Coated Board building in Phenix > City, AL Greeting from the second floor of the "Brian Kirby" building in exotic Lacey's Spring, Alabama. Home of five FreeBSD i386 boxen, an alpha running FreeBSD, and "the craptop" (386SX-20, 3M, 60MB)... all in one room. (Never all at the same time!) (Hint: Look at Huntsville, Alabama and just under the Tennessee River. It's at highway 36 and 231.) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:32:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAAE6154AD for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA24714; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:31:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:31:25 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Message-ID: <19990901183125.G18814@futuresouth.com> References: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com> <37CDB582.FBD048D4@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37CDB582.FBD048D4@airnet.net>; from Kris Kirby on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:23:46PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:23:46PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Kris Kirby remarked > CP4@mead.com wrote: > > > > Greetings from the second floor of the Mead Coated Board building in Phenix > > City, AL > > Greeting from the second floor of the "Brian Kirby" building in exotic > Lacey's Spring, Alabama. Home of five FreeBSD i386 boxen, an alpha > running FreeBSD, and "the craptop" (386SX-20, 3M, 60MB)... all in one > room. (Never all at the same time!) While not precisely Alabama... Good morning from the ground floor (we don't build multi-story here ;) of FutureSouth Communications here in scenic Tupelo, Mississippi (the birthplace of Elvis Presley, as none of us residents are ever allowed to forget), housing a moderate variety of FreeBSD machines, and a few NT boxes to keep the admins from being bored. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:36: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C21154AD for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06521; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:06:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901165443.047f7a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:05:19 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) Cc: Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:12 PM 9/1/99 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> Why not? Controversy is good. Aristotle, way back in ancient Greece, > > recognized that the dialectic -- argument and discussion -- is what > > leads to progress and to knowledge. > >Aristotle did this to forward a personal agenda and complete the burial >of the Sophists. Who deserved, in many ways, to be buried. Socrates, Plato, et al specialized in argument via leading questions (see any of Plato's dialogues), a ploy which can only be overcome by questioning the questions. Hence, Aristotle's insistence upon FREE discussion of issues rather than the Sophists' overly constrained questioning, which could be manipulated to lead only where the questioner desired. >However, we stray from the necessary flameage, so for the sake of >completeness, 'Your mother was a hamster...' "That's not an argument, that's abuse." ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:40:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C19154AD; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11MGXx-0003T2-00; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:59:53 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11MGXw-0001qN-00; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:59:52 +0100 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:59:51 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StarOffice giveaway of source code Message-ID: <19990901205951.A7065@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <8a24adf3.24fe9e65@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 Smc659@aol.com wrote: > >> Heres what suns web page says: >> >> "Our aim is to .com office productivity. We are publishing the StarOffice > ^^^^^^^ > Now there's a verb I hadn't seen before. You've never looked at Sun's website before, then? I think they just try to get ".com" into every sentence, e.g. "How to .com", "Sun .coms High-Performance Computing", "We're the dot in .com", just ignore them. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:48:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt010nb9.san.rr.com (dt010nb9.san.rr.com [204.210.12.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFDB14D9D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt010nb9.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA35119; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt010nb9.san.rr.com To: Rod Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... In-Reply-To: <99090119093901.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One more polite request. Please, DO NOT discuss advocacy on -chat. If you want to discuss advocacy issues please subscribe to the freebsd-advocacy list and have at it. There are many of us on -chat that do not want our mailboxes filled with this stuff. Thanks, Doug On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Rod Taylor wrote: > I'm mildly interested in what you consider these to be. Can we fix these > problems? Are they problems, or choices with long term payoffs rather than > immediate. Does FreeBSD want a larger userbase, afterall... With the good, > comes the bad. > > Rather than defending your yet to be shared thoughts. Please discuss, with me > if noone else, just what we can do. And, I suggest you ignore the overly > negative feedback, and consider only the constructive feedback. Perhaps one of > the user groups could use your thoughts to help spread it throughout their area > as a test base. If it accomplishes what is wanted, then the project is > expanded. If not, it's confined to that area or stopped should the results be > negative. I make the assumption your plan is feasible. > > On Wed, 01 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Advocacy is more than just being a "booster" or shouting "Rah! Rah!" on the > > sidelines. It also involves identifying problems and solving them. It seems > > as if some of the members of this list would rather shoot the messenger than > > deal with FreeBSD's problems in the area of marketing and evangelism. Recognition > > of the problem -- which even according to David's numbers is growing > > exponentially -- is necessary before right action can be taken. > > -- > Justice is incidental to law and order. -J. Edgar Hoover > (contributed by Chris Johnston) > -- > > Rod Taylor > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:51:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9288314D9D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from quark.feynman.com (planetx-2-186.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.142.252]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id SAA09419; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:50:57 -0500 Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by quark.feynman.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09497; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:52:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:52:28 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Message-ID: <19990901185228.A9481@quark.feynman.com> References: <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:43:10PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:25 AM 9/1/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > --------------------Major snip------------ Am not sure why I'm wasting time responding to this, but I couldn't restrain myself... > > No. The installed base appears to be growing, slowly. But an increase > in numbers does not necessarily indicate an increase in market share. > True where the numbers are concerned. > Even David G., whose projections of FreeBSD's growth seem to me to be > overly optimistic, admits that the gap between Linux and FreeBSD > is growing. On April 15th of this year, he wrote: > > >FreeBSD has in the past and continues > >to grow at nearly the _exact_ same exponential growth curve that Linux has; > >we're just about 2 years behind them and considering that they actually started > >two years before FreeBSD was formed, this should come as no surprise. It's > >definitely not an even playing field and Linux clearly has a time advantage. > > I disagree with David's contention that FreeBSD is growing at > "the same exponential growth rate that Linux has," but let's assume, for > the sake of discussion, that this is the case. If the growth factor > for both is g, then each will have g times the installed base than it did > the year before. > > Now, it doesn't take a mathematician to realize that, in David's model, the > GAP between the sizes of the user bases also grows by a factor of g every > year. In fact, the larger g is, the more Linux pulls ahead. Simple math. > What's more, if you assume that the total number of users of ALL OSes is > increasing at a uniform rate, FreeBSD's market share MUST decline relative > to that of Linux. Why? Because, having fewer users, its market share > is impacted more by the user bases of other OSes. > Huh! Buy what convoluted piece of logic does the above play out? > No, Jordan, I do not "slam" FreeBSD or BSD UNIX in general, and you should > not attempt to discredit me by making this false claim. I do carefully critique > the way in which BSD UNIX in general is being marketed, promoted, and evangelized. > Critique indeed! Brett, I am beginning to lose respect for someone that used to fight the good fight for BSD. Your motives are at time questionable -- tongue firmly planted in cheek. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 16:59:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (TRAVELERS.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351411560B for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 16:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by travelers.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26373; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:58:37 -0400 (EDT) From: cjc26@cornell.edu X-Sender: cjc26@travelers.mail.cornell.edu To: Doug Cc: Rod Taylor , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But what about fairings??? On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Doug wrote: > One more polite request. Please, DO NOT discuss advocacy on -chat. > If you want to discuss advocacy issues please subscribe to the > freebsd-advocacy list and have at it. There are many of us on -chat that > do not want our mailboxes filled with this stuff. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 17:17:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBCC315574 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:17:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net) Received: from lunatic.oneinsane.net (insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.231]) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01252 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from insane@localhost) by lunatic.oneinsane.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14304 for freeBSD-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:17:05 -0700 From: "Ron 'The InSaNe One' Rosson" To: freeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) Message-ID: <19990901171705.C13580@lunatic.oneinsane.net> Reply-To: Ron Rosson References: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com>; from CP4@mead.com on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:54:33PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD lunatic.oneinsane.net 3.2-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net X-PGP-KEY: http://www.oneinsane.net/~insane/insane-pgp5i.txt X-Uptime: 5:16PM up 28 days, 9:19, 4 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 01 Sep 1999, CP4@mead.com was heard blurting out: Greetings from San Diego, CA and El Cajon, CA ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's Quote: "It's important to pay close attention in school----for years I thought that bears masturbated all winter." ---Damon R. Milhem To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 17:28:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69ECE1543D for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Received: from localhost (dburr@localhost) by 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA96071; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:28:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr To: John Baldwin Cc: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Gregory Sutter , Matthew Hunt Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: <199909011646.MAA16156@sable.cc.vt.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, John Baldwin wrote: JB>On 01-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote: JB>> On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: JB>>:On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, GReg Sutter wrote: JB>>:> > greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! JB>>:> Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in JB>>:> my office! :) JB>>:Greetings from Pasadena, in the sub-basement of the astronomy JB>>:department at Caltech, at California and Wilson. JB>> Greets from NASA LaRC. JB>Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of JB>the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. Oh what the hell... :) Greetings from sunny Southern California, specifically right smack dab in the middle of downtown Santa Barbara, CA. -- Donald Burr WEB: http://www.Powered-By.AC/ PO Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 Tel:(805)957-9666 FAX:(800)492-5954 Member and software developer with The FreBSD Project - http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ *** FreeBSD *** A FREE, 32 Bit UNIX OS for PC's -- The Power to Serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 17:34:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70DE155C0 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12878; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Sep 1999 16:43:10 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:33:59 -0700 Message-ID: <12874.936232439@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Is the notoriously well clued-in > > Gartner Group's (NOT) claim that Linux is the only non-Microsoft OS > > to gain marketshare any more credible? > > Yes. They're paid big bucks and are in a fiercely competitive market > where customers demand accuracy. Haha. You have a lot more trust in people who are paid big bucks than I do, clearly, and also are assuming that their results aren't simply OLD at this point. When was that report generated? What figures were the person or persons generating the report using at the time? It's quite possible for highly skilled, well-paid people to make mistakes even with the best of intentions or we wouldn't have lost a shuttle and the U.S. government would operate like a swiss watch (one could correctly deem international politics to be "fiercely competetive" and the US government is certainly paid some of the biggest bucks of all). And no, this isn't simply a straw-man argument, this is a direct refutation of your claim that being in a competetive market and being paid big bucks is some sort of instant ticket to Objective Truth(tm). > No. The installed base appears to be growing, slowly. But an increase > in numbers does not necessarily indicate an increase in market share. Slowly? I don't see where you get that impression and, again, I don't think you're even bothering to try and look for data beyond what's already been chewed up and regurgitated by the likes of the Gartner Group. David asked for numbers and so far all you've given us is somebody's canned report and a single URL from the notoriously inaccurate "queso" stats (and for more info on why I think it's inaccurate, do a slashdot search for "queso" and read up on the flames). That's not citing stats, that's looking for one or two numbers which fit your agenda and then stopping there. It's poor science and it's a poor argument. > Even David G., whose projections of FreeBSD's growth seem to me to be > overly optimistic, admits that the gap between Linux and FreeBSD > is growing. On April 15th of this year, he wrote: Now here's an issue we can actually agree on. OF COURSE there's a growing "gap" between the Linux and FreeBSD camps - I've pointed out many times that it's definitely the Linux people who are currently enjoying their 15 minutes of fame and given that they're in the spotlight, only a fool would suggest that they're going to get the most hit points right now. That "gap", however, is not the issue. The issue is whether or not we are growing TOO and growing fast enough to satisfy any reasonable requirements for forward momentum. We are doing all of that and more, and I don't see what purpose would be served by trying to do a "Michael Jackson", only to become rapidly overwhelmed by an influx of screaming fans (though ours scream for different and less pleasant reasons) and resulting in us seeing core and all our principal developers retiring to various fenced retreats with only monkeys and small children for company. Sometimes it's possible to grow TOO fast, and let me just remind you that where "Linux" gets to spread the load across a whole bunch of different distributions and literally thousands of developers, many of whom are paid for their full-time work by the likes of Red Hat, Caldera, SUSE and TurboLinux, we have only one FreeBSD and one group of people to hold the line. The NetBSD and OpenBSD groups, as competent as they are, don't have the numbers to share that load to any significant degree and so it's just us. That's the "downside" to having only one distribution and I think it's a reasonable price to pay for not having our development and our user base splintered across the same number of distributions that Linux is seeing today. They might get a lot more load-sharing out of it, but at a very high price. You can't always have your cake and eat it too, Brett, that's just the facts of life. If we can continue to grow at a *reasonable* pace and continue to attract good developers, we can have the best of both worlds in that we'll be creating the kind of product we WANT to create and getting considerable user buy-in for it. Will we achieve world domination and push Linux out of the position it's in? Quite likely not, and I'm not even sure that market dominance is even all it's cracked up to be. Let me turn the question around: Since you're clearly so fired up by numbers and nose-counting, why aren't you part of the Linux community now? They're clearly where it's at by every metric you hold dear in the arguments you've been making, so why stick around here? Just for the purposes of argument, let's also say that it WAS my intention to take on Linux in a head-on fight, along with Microsoft and Solaris since a competitor is a competitor, after all, and we can't afford to ignore Russia while we're attacking England. What do you seriously think that would take? I'll tell you what it would take, it would take an entire BATALLION of Brett Glasses and (one hopes) a few armies worth of developers in the background to produce something even worth evangelising about. You can't really be so egotistical as to asssume that you, single-handedly (or even you and 50 other guys with a few million dollars worth of capital), can compete with Red Hat and its 2 billion dollar war market cap? And that's just ONE of groups you'd have to defeat to push Linux from its perch. The folks at SUSE and TurboLinux might not be Red Hat but they have their own millions, and I can assure you that they wouldn't take any serious attempt to unseat them lying down. Yet still you come here with your little war plans and your pointy stick and tell us that we can all charge the enemy's line of assembled M1 tanks if we're all just pure of heart and make sure to smear the magic chicken blood on our chests which wards off bullets. Uh huh. Go for it, Brett, and we'll all be behind you in the follow-up attack, I promise. :-) I think we're doing very well right now and I would personally HATE to see us attempt to grow so fast that we leave all of our traditional goals behind and instead start doing what marketing tells us we should be doing, the first thing probably being to drop all of our ideas about being a robust solution and instead do 14 releases a year, each one with a big PR blitz behind it and some fancy packaging to make up for the fact that the bits are actually rushed-out crapola. And oh yeah, we should also name it to "FreeLinux" and drop that whole BSD kernel thing since OBVIOUSLY it's Linux which has the mindshare and we should all tap into that immediately. Hell, they'd probably even be RIGHT to suggest such things on a purely objective basis, but then we wouldn't be FreeBSD anymore either and what would honestly be the point? I'm still waiting for some concrete proposals from you which explain just how exactly we're going to compete with Linux where it's currently strongest without compromising our own principles for being the technically sound, well thought-out solution. I imagine that BMW went through a similar soul-searching crisis in the 60's, when a little automotive upstart called Volkswagon started stamping out beetle-shaped cars in huge quantities. I'm even sure that some marketing execs probably came to them with the best of intentions at some point and said "stop focusing on producing a really nice luxury automobile, get some sheet metal in here and stamp out something to compete with VW! There's no clearly future in producing an expensive, high-quality car - just look at their sales figures!" You claim that you're here to identify and solve problems but, like those hypothetical execs, I think you're also far too myopically focused on the Brett Glass Method of marketing and have lost your own ability to see the forest for the trees. Of course, every time someone refuses to toe the Brett Glass party line, you cannot tolerate the faintest rumblings of dissent and do your best to shoot the messenger. Does that sound familar, by any chance? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 17:40:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA8914BCC for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12898 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:38:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The chat charter. Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:38:51 -0700 Message-ID: <12893.936232731@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some people have tried to get this redirected to the -advocacy group. Don't do that. This is not really about advocacy, this is about a strong conflict of views and, as such, belongs nowhere BUT -chat. Chat is for everything and anything, including pseudo-advocacy arguments, discussions on whether the X Files is a documentary or fiction, the number of caffinated ferrets required to fix NFS, ANYTHING. It's a totally open charter and to object to a thread in -chat makes about as much sense as telling Brett Glass to shut up. It ain't gonna happen and it's not a good use of your time to get involved in such a debate. Chat is for, well, chat and that pretty much covers everything. If you don't like occasional noise, don't subscribe to this list. Nobody is forcing you to do so. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 17:45:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52FE15425 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:45:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA00395; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:45:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:45:27 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. Message-ID: <19990901194527.H18814@futuresouth.com> References: <12893.936232731@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <12893.936232731@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:38:51PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:38:51PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > Chat is for everything and anything, including pseudo-advocacy > arguments, discussions on whether the X Files is a documentary or > fiction, the number of caffinated ferrets required to fix NFS, Interesting that you should mention that last bit. According to the charter: --- ...It includes discussion about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or not... --- ^^^^ (it's misspelled in the charter, don't shoot the messenger ;) So where's your Mt Dew and how long do you plan on taking? ;> -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 18:16:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B03715546 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-209.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.209]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07260 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37CDCFDC.918C0248@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:16:12 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) References: <852567DF.00625A41.00@dayton2.mead.com> <37CDB582.FBD048D4@airnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > running FreeBSD, and "the craptop" (386SX-20, 3M, 60MB)... all in one > room. (Never all at the same time!) Never all _on_ at the same time... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 18:19:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt010nb9.san.rr.com (dt010nb9.san.rr.com [204.210.12.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B0D15A6A for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt010nb9.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA35929; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:18:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:18:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt010nb9.san.rr.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The chat charter. In-Reply-To: <12893.936232731@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Some people have tried to get this redirected to the -advocacy group. > Don't do that. This is not really about advocacy, this is about a > strong conflict of views and, as such, belongs nowhere BUT -chat. Actually calling the topic "strong conflict of views" is even more charitable than I was. > Chat is for everything and anything, Ok, so I'll use my share of "everything and anything" to keep asking people not to rehash the same stupid "not getting us anywhere" arguments in -chat. :) But seriously folks, I wasn't really responding to Brett since I know that won't do anyone any good. My comments were directed specifically at those whose posts started with words to the effect of, "I'd like to diverge from this topic and talk about the advocacy issues related to...." The polite responses I've received in private e-mail indicate to me that there may yet be hope. Doug -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 18:50:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A6615172 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-209.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.209]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07452; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:50:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37CDD7EE.B97A753C@airnet.net> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:50:38 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: <12893.936232731@localhost> <19990901194527.H18814@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:38:51PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > > > Chat is for everything and anything, including pseudo-advocacy > > arguments, discussions on whether the X Files is a documentary or > > fiction, the number of caffinated ferrets required to fix NFS, > > Interesting that you should mention that last bit. According to the > charter: > --- > ...It includes discussion about whether Jordan looks like a tune ferret or > not... > --- > ^^^^ > (it's misspelled in the charter, don't shoot the messenger ;) > > So where's your Mt Dew and how long do you plan on taking? ;> No no, you've missed the point. The answer is 453 caffinated ferrets, but we can only get about 20 before someone gets bitten, and then it's off with their heads for the rabies test. Frightful. Animal control hates us for it. That and corporate sponsorship is hard to find for a project like this. Do you have any idea how much it costs in soda alone, even using the cheap stuff? And what about all those cages that need cleaning? The smell alone.... :-) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 18:51:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500DA15172 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 18:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08235; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:51:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:51:01 -0600 To: Frank Pawlak From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990901185228.A9481@quark.feynman.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:52 PM 9/1/99 -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: >> Now, it doesn't take a mathematician to realize that, in David's model, the > > GAP between the sizes of the user bases also grows by a factor of g every > > year. In fact, the larger g is, the more Linux pulls ahead. Simple math. > > What's more, if you assume that the total number of users of ALL OSes is > > increasing at a uniform rate, FreeBSD's market share MUST decline relative > > to that of Linux. Why? Because, having fewer users, its market share > > is impacted more by the user bases of other OSes. > > > >Huh! Buy what convoluted piece of logic does the above play out? You can see the first point simply by drawing a graph. Start two exponential curves, one at the origin and another farther in. The size of the gap between the curves will increase exponentially. The second point is more subtle, but is easy to understand if you think about it in the following way. Let's suppose Linux and FreeBSD were the only two OSes in existence. If this were the case, and they followed the exponential curves that David posits, their market shares would remain constant. But there ARE other OSes, of course, so we must introduce them into the equation. What is the effect of doing this? Well, because FreeBSD has far fewer users than Linux, those other OSes cut into its market share more, on a percentage basis, than into the market share of Linux. (The disparity increases as Linux pulls farther ahead of FreeBSD.) So, FreeBSD can (and does!) see a decrease in market share even as Linux sees an increase. The OS Counter statistics are not perfect, but if anything they OVERestimate the penetration of the BSDs. Why? Because queso mis-identifies some other OSes as "BSD Family," and also because the survey was of RIPE addresses. (The BSDs have higher penetration in Europe than in the States, because the culture there is -- and always has been -- more receptive to alternative OSes.) Also, FreeBSD systems comprise only some of the systems identified as "BSD Family." When one considers all of these factors, it becomes clear that FreeBSD is *definitely* losing market share. This should be a matter of concern to FreeBSD users. Fortunately, I believe that the trend can be reversed. > > No, Jordan, I do not "slam" FreeBSD or BSD UNIX in general, and you should > > not attempt to discredit me by making this false claim. I do carefully critique > > the way in which BSD UNIX in general is being marketed, promoted, and evangelized. > > > >Critique indeed! Brett, I am beginning to lose respect for someone that used >to fight the good fight for BSD. Disagreement is not justification for a loss of respect. (I respect many people with whom I disagree.) On the other hand, if I ever fail to adhere to principle in the face of opposition, you are by all means entitled to lose respect for me. >Your motives are at time questionable -- tongue firmly planted in cheek. Which begs the obvious question: What do you believe my motives are? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 19:33:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E9A5B14D69 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 96324 invoked from network); 2 Sep 1999 02:31:07 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 2 Sep 1999 02:31:07 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:31:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> References: <37CD5D00.646508CA@vangelderen.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990902023307.E9A5B14D69@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:06 PM 9/1/99 +0200, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: > > >http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html > > I find it hard to believe that anyone would have nothing better to > do than to post a defamatory Web page in an attempt to shout down > the slightest rumbling of dissent -- but there you have it. This > page reflects very badly on the poster and on the maturity level of > those involved. Really? I thought it was funny. Satire is most effective when applied to politics, and I'm afraid that's where we are at present. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 19:50:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762CF14EDB for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from quark.feynman.com (dantooine-1-127.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.1]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id VAA28419; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:49:22 -0500 Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by quark.feynman.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA10014; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:50:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:50:45 -0500 From: Frank Pawlak To: Brett Glass Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... Message-ID: <19990901215045.A10001@quark.feynman.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <19990901185228.A9481@quark.feynman.com> <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:51:01PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:52 PM 9/1/99 -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >> Now, it doesn't take a mathematician to realize that, in David's model, the > > > GAP between the sizes of the user bases also grows by a factor of g every > > > year. In fact, the larger g is, the more Linux pulls ahead. Simple math. > > > What's more, if you assume that the total number of users of ALL OSes is > > > increasing at a uniform rate, FreeBSD's market share MUST decline relative > > > to that of Linux. Why? Because, having fewer users, its market share > > > is impacted more by the user bases of other OSes. > > > > > > >Huh! Buy what convoluted piece of logic does the above play out? > > You can see the first point simply by drawing a graph. Start two exponential > curves, one at the origin and another farther in. The size of the gap between > the curves will increase exponentially. > This much is clear. > The second point is more subtle, but is easy to understand if you think about > it in the following way. Let's suppose Linux and FreeBSD were the only two > OSes in existence. If this were the case, and they followed the exponential > curves that David posits, their market shares would remain constant. But > there ARE other OSes, of course, so we must introduce them into the equation. > What is the effect of doing this? Well, because FreeBSD has far fewer users > than Linux, those other OSes cut into its market share more, on a percentage > basis, than into the market share of Linux. (The disparity increases as Linux > pulls farther ahead of FreeBSD.) So, FreeBSD can (and does!) see a decrease > in market share even as Linux sees an increase. > This is where I think that fuzzy logic enters the argument. > The OS Counter statistics are not perfect, but if anything they OVERestimate > the penetration of the BSDs. Why? Because queso mis-identifies some other OSes > as "BSD Family," and also because the survey was of RIPE addresses. (The BSDs > have higher penetration in Europe than in the States, because the culture there > is -- and always has been -- more receptive to alternative OSes.) Also, FreeBSD > systems comprise only some of the systems identified as "BSD Family." When one > considers all of these factors, it becomes clear that FreeBSD is *definitely* > losing market share. This should be a matter of concern to FreeBSD users. > Fortunately, I believe that the trend can be reversed. > > > > No, Jordan, I do not "slam" FreeBSD or BSD UNIX in general, and you should > > > not attempt to discredit me by making this false claim. I do carefully critique > > > the way in which BSD UNIX in general is being marketed, promoted, and evangelized. > > > > > > >Critique indeed! Brett, I am beginning to lose respect for someone that used > >to fight the good fight for BSD. > > Disagreement is not justification for a loss of respect. (I respect many people > with whom I disagree.) On the other hand, if I ever fail to adhere to principle in > the face of opposition, you are by all means entitled to lose respect for me. > > >Your motives are at time questionable -- tongue firmly planted in cheek. > > Which begs the obvious question: What do you believe my motives are? Please don't put words on my lips. I never implied that I'm losing respect because we disagree. That would be pretty small of me. Correct, disagreement is not a reason to lose respect for a person. However, I am getting the feeling that you a beating a hollow drum. For sake of argument, let's just assume that perhaps Jordan, and David have solid ground on which to base their argument. In my own humble way I have seen evidence that would tend to corroborate their statements. For example, a year or so ago I didn't see much BSD except at ISPs. Where as today I am finding it in IS departments right along with Linux. And, am hearing such things like it makes for a better server platform. Is this smoke and mirrors? Further, it is well known by you that I of all people do not worship at the Jordan shrine, so there is no ulterior motive to come to his defense. To refresh your memory -- about a year ago there was a particularly nasty flame war......etc. As to your motives, at this point that appears to be an open question. I think that we are all very clear that you have issues with the marketing program. But, your tactics are not going to get it done, and you are smart enough to know that. I have read some of your articles which indicate a level headed approach to the issues. On this forum that approach appears to be missing. Unless your motives are to constantly piss people off. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 19:56:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from topsecret.net (gill.apk.net [207.54.148.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CB9914EF4 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 19:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gill@topsecret.net) Received: from stumpy by topsecret.net with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Wed, 01 Sep 1999 22:54:40 -0400 From: "James Gill" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:53:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901164908.047b2c90@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Return-Path: gill@topsecret.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I find it hard to believe that anyone would have nothing better > to do than to post a defamatory Web page ... judging by the timestamps in my inbox this discussion has been going on about thirty one hours from Brett's first post on the subject to the one quoted above. and at last check there is no journaling filesystem or bretthat distribution. go figure. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 20:58:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtprch1.nortel.com (smtprch1.nortelnetworks.com [192.135.215.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5475214E19 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrens@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zcars01t by smtprch1.nortel.com; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:47:17 -0500 Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com by zcars01t; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:55:03 -0400 Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com [47.196.31.114]) by hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA34037 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:57:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew Atrens" Reply-To: "Andrew Atrens" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings from the first floor of my home, just a stone's throw from the Ottawa River, in Canada's capital. Andrew. -- +-- | Andrew Atrens Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada. | | All opinions expressed are my own, not those of any employer. | --+ Heller's Law: The first myth of management is that it exists. Johnson's Corollary: Nobody really knows what is going on anywhere within the organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 21:44: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5347A14D41; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.160]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2375; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:43:52 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA64936; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:43:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:43:05 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, wosch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902064305.A64923@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <37CD620B.DDD47A5B@vangelderen.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <37CD620B.DDD47A5B@vangelderen.org> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Jeroen C. van Gelderen (jeroen@vangelderen.org) [990901 21:19]: >Wolfram Schneider wrote: >> greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > >Greetings from Ol'Ta, The Valley, Anguilla BWI ;-) Where? =) Anyways, let me not be a stranger: Good morning from Smitshoek [near South-Rotterdam], the Netherlands. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Peace at any price. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 22:13:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C87115019 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.198.15]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB208F; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:13:52 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA64951; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:50:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 06:50:44 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Arthur H. Johnson II" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. Message-ID: <19990902065044.C64923@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990901183754.G283@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <19990901183754.G283@marder-1> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Mark Ovens (mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) [990901 21:19]: >On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: >> I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to >> seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my >> mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with >> important stuff from employees and bosses. > >So, if I set up procmail can I use it to grab my e-mail from a POP3 >server (dial-up ISP account)? I could do with a setup like this >instead of just having mutt stuff it all in /var/mail/mark. Do you >know any URL's related to procmail? The obvious: www.procmail.org As Arthur already said in his follow-up mail. Use fetchmail to leech boxes and then procmail them. I have example scripts if ye want/need them... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Life is just one damned thing after another. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 23:17:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF5F14F08 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from scotty.masternet.it (ppp-massa52-64-17.iol.it [212.52.64.17]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA34345 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:15:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-ID: <37F5A3A3.8A514B@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 08:18:11 +0200 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <37CD620B.DDD47A5B@vangelderen.org> <19990902064305.A64923@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > * Jeroen C. van Gelderen (jeroen@vangelderen.org) [990901 21:19]: > >Wolfram Schneider wrote: > >> greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! > > > >Greetings from Ol'Ta, The Valley, Anguilla BWI ;-) > Hi, just to continue the greetings serie here mines. I am in Italy at Forte dei Marmi, a well known seaside place in the west coast. I think my FreeBSD box is the only FreeBSD box installed in about 50 km of radius :-) ... the nearest are Luigi Rizzo's ones at University of Pisa (about 20 minutes by car on the south). On Monday I'll return home in Prato, near Florence (about 15km) and far from here 100km to the east. Greetings again... -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 1 23:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC1515172 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06287; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:02:09 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990902160209:18482=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: <37F5A3A3.8A514B@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:02:09 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990902160209:18482=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 02-Oct-99 Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I think my FreeBSD box is the only FreeBSD box installed in about 50 km > of radius :-) ... the nearest are Luigi Rizzo's ones at University of > Pisa (about 20 minutes by car on the south). > > On Monday I'll return home in Prato, near Florence (about 15km) and far > from here 100km to the east. Speaking of far flung FreeBSD boxen.. We have some that are in Esrange Sweden, and one near Sao Paulo in Brazil.. There is also one which is near Cape Jervis in South Australia which is the only one within 100km or so :) (As far as I know anyway :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990902160209:18482=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN84Z6VbYW/HEoF9pAQH5zgP9FsJUCICFqrnZX3q848g+rQIjKsxbw6Tc PJPv61QTLSQzJ64BZJxL37ChW5GwgFBdJX4ub10ubmp1Br0XNXnRC2PmTRlNg1Sc jTJ9CEFKvFJgNCIWdZ+U0L6c/xasrrfcXmDuKCRk6Ip7hFsP+4yo+8oabDn1pILH Cdqav9jCIY0= =N/a5 -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990902160209:18482=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 0:11: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAAD15582 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA94002; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:09:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902004901.A33289@keltia.freenix.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Sep 1999 09:09:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Ollivier Robert's message of "Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:49:01 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert writes: > According to Josef Grosch: > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > > also in my office. ;-) > Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) Greetings from the offices of Yes! Interactive in Ski, Norway! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 0:30: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817FF14C39 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 00:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA94082; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:29:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: <12893.936232731@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Sep 1999 09:29:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:38:51 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > Some people have tried to get this redirected to the -advocacy group. > Don't do that. This is not really about advocacy, this is about a > strong conflict of views and, as such, belongs nowhere BUT -chat. It's not about a strong conflict of views. It's about Brett's inferiority complex and his habit of going off on a Jihad against you just to get some attention. In a way, he's a lot like Dan in Dilbert ("A stubborn dumb guy with a V-neck sweater"). Dilbert: "This is when you agree with me and we move on with our lives." Dan: "I will fight you to the end of the Earth!" So, Brett, please just go away, and don't bother to come back. (this is not what I'd *really* like to say, but Jordan threatened to take me off the list if I didn't restrain myself) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 1:12:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAB6214F32 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04046; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:16:35 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA88728; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:12:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37CDD7EE.B97A753C@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: The chat charter. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Matthew D. Fuller" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Sep-99 Kris Kirby wrote: > No no, you've missed the point. The answer is 453 caffinated ferrets, > but we can only get about 20 before someone gets bitten, and then it's > off with their heads for the rabies test. Frightful. Animal control > hates us for it. That and corporate sponsorship is hard to find for a > project like this. Do you have any idea how much it costs in soda alone, > even using the cheap stuff? And what about all those cages that need > cleaning? The smell alone.... Daily, I attempt to handle 920 caffeinated ferrets.. does that mean I could tune Jordan multiple times in addition to fixing a NFS configuration or two? Oh yeah, and those ferrets were drinking Garfield's coffee. ;-) I also manage to chug down about 7-L of pop: 4-L of Faygo Moon Mist + 3-L of Faygo Ohana Punch. I like mixing them together. I bought 10-L in all yesterday: 2 3-L Moon Mist and 2 2-L Ohana Punch bottles. Hmm.. _SOMEBODY_ is gonna have to test the sugar level in my bloodstream one of these days. I swear, I can feel the blood racing through my veins... Whoa.. maybe since my blood is racing I could tune Jordan to be a tune ferret! Poor DES. ;-) -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 1:18:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AC8615514 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:18:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04509; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:20:30 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA88817; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:16:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Donald Burr Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: Matthew Hunt , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jamie Bowden , John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Sep-99 Donald Burr wrote: > Greetings from sunny Southern California, specifically right smack dab in > the middle of downtown Santa Barbara, CA. Myself from Metamora, Michigan (small town near Lapeer), and also have a condo in Keego Harbor, Michigan, about 5 minutes from Pontiac and 40 minutes from downtown Detroit. Oh yeah, and I house 2 FreeBSD machines here. Sadly, one is on a decapitated laptop built for Windoze, and thus, even with my CardBus ethernet card, I can't get 4.0-CURRENT on it. Goddamnit. *nudge PAO* -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 1:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC71D14EC5; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04688; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:22:23 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA88862; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:18:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990901205951.A7065@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Ben Smithurst Subject: Re: StarOffice giveaway of source code Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Ben Smithurst wrote: > You've never looked at Sun's website before, then? I think they just > try to get ".com" into every sentence, e.g. "How to .com", "Sun .coms > High-Performance Computing", "We're the dot in .com", just ignore them. Sounds scarily similar to InterNIC, aka Network Solutions, aka "The Dot Com People" "We're so friendly we try to help everyone register their own domain name and then we fly away and don't help them change their nameserver IP addresses quickly enough to avoid losing money" . -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 1:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E790915483 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA13719; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:04:24 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA91107; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:04:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:04:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Josef Grosch Cc: Gregory Sutter , Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902180419.M87614@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:57:15PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 31 August 1999 at 23:57:15 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:42:40PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 08:28:05AM +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> greetings from San Francisco Downtown, JH Mason street! >> >> Greetings from San Francisco SoMa, Brannan St. at 3rd St., in >> my office! :) > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > also in my office. ;-) :-) Greetings from Echunga SA, beyond the black stump. From Revision 1.1 of the title matter of "The Complete FreeBSD": .\" $Id: title.mm,v 1.1 1995/11/16 17:59:12 grog Exp $ \s14 Using FreeBSD\s10 .br by Greg Lehey .sp .5i Copyright \(co 1995 by Walnut Creek CDROM. All rights reserved. .br Printed in the People's Republic of California .sp 4i This book was written in \fItroff\fP and formatted with the GNU \fIgroff\fP package running under FreeBSD 2.1. It was set in ITC Garamond. Jack Velte wasn't amused, even for a prerelease. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 1:36:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C25815512 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06804; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 01:39:44 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA89251; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 04:35:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901170732.04847ea0@localhost> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > In short, you and a handful of others (though I doubt that there were > actually 12 of them) are gloating over a personal attack > that proves nothing. I think you just view it as a personal attack. Don't be shocked at my reply - everyone would take it personally. Honest. I, for one, am sick of your bullshit. You try to rub your so-called "facts" that are researched by unreliable sources into my nose. It seems to have been going on longer than I've been on these mailing lists, which is a few months (advocacy and security seem to be your "strong points"). I really can't wait until the next foolish email I get from you ("I need assurance that the core team won't let X, Y, or Z to happen" is going to get about as reliable an answer as if you asked Bill Gates "Are you going to take over the world?"). Honest. This is what you get. Laugh, it's supposed to be funny. Honest. > Again, a demonstration of a serious problem within the group. When > the status quo and conformity are valued over all else, it means > trouble. Ditto when someone is attacked for attempting to inject > a bit of reality. I think your syringe must have been infected. Thank goodness the folks here have enough lysosomes to protect themselves. ;-) -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 2: 3:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from drago.cert.org.tw (drago.cert.org.tw [140.117.100.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D3214C10 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from foxfair@drago.cert.org.tw) Received: from foxfair (foxfair.cc.nsysu.edu.tw [140.117.100.101]) by drago.cert.org.tw (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07426 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:00:20 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:02:21 +0800 From: Foxfair Hu To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ? Message-Id: <37CE3D1D33E.928EFOXFAIR@drago.cert.org.tw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver 1.25.04 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 2 1999, James Howard wrote: : On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Jeroen C. van Gelderen wrote: : > http://jeroen.vangelderen.org/freebsd-chat-faq.html : Was that done according to FDP standards? Not yet, but I'm considering about it more seriously. :-) : Jamie Cheers, -Foxfair. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 2: 4:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A95D514D11 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA10286; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:07:51 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA96374; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:03:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990901214856.C278@marder-1> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 05:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greeting Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Sep-99 Mark Ovens wrote: > When I visited the US (OK, it was 19 years ago) it always seemed > to be called the first floor. It's just you. "Ground floor" is commonly used at hospitals, and sometimes hotels. Perhaps you haven't been to enough hospitals in the US. -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 2:17:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF3414E0E for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA94369; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:14:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Will Andrews Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Sep 1999 11:14:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: Will Andrews's message of "Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:12:29 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews writes: > Poor DES. ;-) w00t? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 2:55: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52B41515D for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA22268; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:53:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA48987; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:56:05 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902115604.39367@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:56:04 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Will Andrews Cc: Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: <37CDD7EE.B97A753C@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Will Andrews on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:12:29AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews writes: > > Hmm.. _SOMEBODY_ is gonna have to test the sugar level in my bloodstream one of > these days. I swear, I can feel the blood racing through my veins... You mean, the blood level in your sugar ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 2:55:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479FC1515D for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 02:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA22354; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:54:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA48995; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:57:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902115711.64122@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:57:11 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. References: <12893.936232731@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 09:29:54AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > So, Brett, please just go away, and don't bother to come back. > > (this is not what I'd *really* like to say, but Jordan threatened to > take me off the list if I didn't restrain myself) If we pay, can we put you and Brett in a cage, and watch you mudwrestle ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 3:10:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694ED14EB4 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA23851; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:08:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA49102; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:11:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902121136.56380@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:11:36 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... References: <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:43:10PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > The large and exponentially growing gap between FreeBSD and Linux is a > serious problem. Does this mean that, when the FreeBSD project is "finished dying", you'll disappear and leave us alone ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 3:15: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1314B15410 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA24385; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:14:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA49149; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:16:55 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902121655.14581@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:16:55 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by... References: <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:43:10PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > No, Jordan, I do not "slam" FreeBSD or BSD UNIX in general, and you should > not attempt to discredit me by making this false claim. I do carefully critique > the way in which BSD UNIX in general is being marketed, promoted, and evangelized. TO criticize (criticise, UK spelling) A critique > Advocacy is more than just being a "booster" or shouting "Rah! Rah!" on the > sidelines. It also involves identifying problems and solving them. It seems > as if some of the members of this list would rather shoot the messenger than > deal with FreeBSD's problems in the area of marketing and evangelism. Recognition > of the problem -- which even according to David's numbers is growing > exponentially -- is necessary before right action can be taken. You're trying to get people to forcefully "recognize" a problem. And I say "a" problem because so far you're disagreeing with David Greenman's "non-scientific" approach to gathering the data. Tell me, then, what the scientifically correct way would be ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 3:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846E314D1E for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA25627; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:26:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA49204; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:29:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902122922.16712@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:29:22 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Market economics and subjective reality (Re: Sorry, I just couldn't let this go by...) References: <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <804.936177954@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901152642.047b0250@localhost> <19990901185228.A9481@quark.feynman.com> <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901193136.00c4f360@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:51:01PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > curves that David posits, their market shares would remain constant. But > there ARE other OSes, of course, so we must introduce them into the equation. > What is the effect of doing this? Well, because FreeBSD has far fewer users > than Linux, those other OSes cut into its market share more, on a percentage > basis, than into the market share of Linux. (The disparity increases as Linux > pulls farther ahead of FreeBSD.) So, FreeBSD can (and does!) see a decrease > in market share even as Linux sees an increase. For once I'll reason at your level: YOU estimate that FreeBSD can only survive/be viable/whatever if and only if its relative share / market share as compared to other OSes is high enough -- something like: "exponential is not enough, since factor 2 growth means FreeBSD will have 6 million users less than Linux (whatever that means), then 12 million less" (even if we'll still have the same ratio) Jordan (and most other people here -- shoot me if I'm putting words in people's mouth, don't worry, they've been sterilized) are saying: "it doesn't matter what the market share/user base ratio is, as long as we get at least 1 million users, with the following objectives: 1 million users: people will develop drivers for us 2 million users: companies will develop drivers for us 4 million users: people will write stupid articles, but get us notices, and start using BSD outside prod. environments 8 million users: we can find a scape goat to be our Messiah, even if he's Finnish I think it's about "miminum user base for survival and healthy activity" vs. "we're not good enough! we're gonna die! we can't be Pepsi, we have to be Coca-Cola!" Err.. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 3:33:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DFD14D70 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:33:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA25855; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:31:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA49227; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:34:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990902123429.49433@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 12:34:29 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Jay Nelson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) References: <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990901144318.047adb10@localhost> <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> <4.2.0.58.19990901165443.047f7a30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990901165443.047f7a30@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 05:05:19PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > >However, we stray from the necessary flameage, so for the sake of > >completeness, 'Your mother was a hamster...' > > "That's not an argument, that's abuse." ;-) What about the elderberries ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 5:48:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (TRAVELERS.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE9B114D54 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 05:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by travelers.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15547; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:48:31 -0400 (EDT) From: cjc26@cornell.edu X-Sender: cjc26@travelers.mail.cornell.edu To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Ollivier Robert writes: > > According to Josef Grosch: > > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > > > also in my office. ;-) > > Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) > > Greetings from the offices of Yes! Interactive in Ski, Norway! Good morning from Big Red Hell (aka Cornell University), Ithaca, New York, USA, home of about 14,000 inmates suffering from various stages of stress-induced insanity....IT'S MY SENIOR YEAR!! SWEET JESUS, ONLY NINE MORE MONTHS TO GO AND I'M OUTTA HERE!!!!...er, um, sorry..:) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 7: 2:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (uswgco3.uswest.com [209.54.108.174]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE02155D1 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mmeola@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com) Received: from egate-ut3.uswc.uswest.com (egate-ut3.uswc.uswest.com [148.157.122.201]) by uswgco3.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19924 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from smokey.uswc.uswest.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by egate-ut3.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26343 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:01:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.151.207]) by smokey.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.11/uswc-hub.950320) with ESMTP id IAA23021 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:01:26 -0600 Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.8+Sun/uswc-server.950313) with ESMTP id IAA28368 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:01:25 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.3 3/22/99 From: Matt Meola To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) In-Reply-To: <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> References: <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> X-URL: http://www.qsl.net/kc0dxw Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:01:24 -0600 Message-ID: <28366.936280884@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:12:56 -0500 "Matthew D. Fuller" said: > Aristotle did this to forward a personal agenda and complete the burial > of the Sophists. !! > However, we stray from the necessary flameage, so for the sake of > completeness, 'Your mother was a hamster...' '...And your father smelt of elderberries!' I love that movie... BTW, I tend to agree with Jay Nelson, in his original post. Rabid evangelism of FreeBSD is ultimately harmful, from my view. FreeBSD is a rock, and while Linux is solid also, FreeBSD is better. Better with upgrades (not only cvsup, but ctm, too), better with ports and packages, and, for one, *very* much better with support. Linux is good. I like Linux. But I like FreeBSD better. Moreover, FreeBSD's quality is reflected in the quality of its support -- these mailing lists, perhaps with the exception of -chat, are far and away better than usenet for support. No flames, just the facts. -questions is by far a better resource than all of Usenet combined. This quality, both in code and in support, comes from the quality of character of the people involved. To specifically target the masses for wholescale conversion to FreeBSD is to degrade the overall quality of the userbase. To do so, one ought to also distribute flame-retardant clothing. Now, we surely don't want to push people away; I do not mean to advocate a position of elitism. However, I can confidantly recommend FreeBSD for use, fully evangelizing not only its qualities, but also the qualities of the user community. To invite someone to use FreeBSD is to invite them into our family, to invite them into an environment where they will "grow", both technically and emotionally, to grow into their own role as, someday, a mentor. Linux suffers from the tyranny of the majority -- it is seen as a solid product foisted upon the world by a bunch of arrogant, pimple-faced kids. Let's just make FreeBSD what it can be, and let it sell itself. -- Matt Meola Bailey, Colorado Amateur Radio Operator - KC0DXW http://www.qsl.net/kc0dxw ARES District Six AEC NRA Life Member "Gun control means using two hands." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 7:17:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from enterprise.sanyusan.se (enterprise.sanyusan.se [195.24.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3D215ACD for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from anders@enterprise.sanyusan.se) Received: (from anders@localhost) by enterprise.sanyusan.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA51989; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:14:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from anders) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:14:51 +0200 From: Anders Andersson To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Gianmarco Giovannelli , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902161451.A45136@enterprise.sanyusan.se> References: <37F5A3A3.8A514B@scotty.masternet.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Daniel O'Connor (doconnor@gsoft.com.au) [990902 08:30]: > > Speaking of far flung FreeBSD boxen.. > We have some that are in Esrange Sweden, and one near Sao Paulo in Brazil.. > There is also one which is near Cape Jervis in South Australia which is the > only one within 100km or so :) > (As far as I know anyway :) Esrange in Sweden? Where is that located? Hmm, Sounds like I need a map. Anders -- Anders Andersson anders@sanyusan.se Sanyusan International AB http://www.sanyusan.se/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 7:31:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC9815C14 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18402.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.82]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10862; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA01580; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:12:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:12:59 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey Cc: Josef Grosch , Gregory Sutter , Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902101259.B1098@mad> Reply-To: hoek@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902180419.M87614@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990902180419.M87614@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:04:19PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:04:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > .br > Printed in the People's Republic of California > .sp 4i > This book was written in \fItroff\fP and formatted with the GNU \fIgroff\fP > package running under FreeBSD 2.1. It was set in ITC Garamond. > > Jack Velte wasn't amused, even for a prerelease. Haha. Knowing him only from his email, I can only guess at the extensive lecture you must've gotten. :-) -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 7:45:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch [62.48.0.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D73815A00 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 29304 invoked from network); 2 Sep 1999 14:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) ([195.134.128.41]) (envelope-sender ) by mailtoaster1.pipeline.ch (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 2 Sep 1999 14:43:39 -0000 Message-ID: <37CE8D51.E3CAA262@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:44:33 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902004901.A33289@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Ollivier Robert writes: > > According to Josef Grosch: > > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > > > also in my office. ;-) > > Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) > > Greetings from the offices of Yes! Interactive in Ski, Norway! Greetings from my Office in Zurich, Switzerland and my twenty-something FreeBSD boxen! -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 8: 9:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop111.ocn.ne.jp (pop111.ocn.ne.jp [202.234.233.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973B015B6E for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from academy@academyjapan.co.jp) Received: from pop111.ocn.ne.jp by pop111.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA19963; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:07:54 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:07:54 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199909021507.AAA19963@pop111.ocn.ne.jp> From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?QWNhZGVteSBKYXBhbn==?= To: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?ZnJlZWJzZC1jaGF0QEZyZWVCU0Qub3Jn?= X-Mailer: Direct Email v0.22 Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJUYlbCVTRUVPQyROJCpDTiRpJDshIRsoQkluZm8gb24gVmlkZW9waG9uZW==?= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org $B$3$s$K$A$o!"(B $B$3$l$OJXMx!*(B Here's a good news for you, $B%[%F%k!"N94[!"C1?HIkG$!"N13X$K$b(B a news of the Videophone $B:GE,$J%K%e!<%9(B! over the normal coloer telephone line. $B:#!"@$3&$GOCBj$N4JC1%F%l%SEEOC(B All you have to do is just $B$N>R2p$G$9!#(B connect this videophone with $B<+Bp$N%F%l%S$HEEOC$K$D$J$0$@$1$G(B the telephone and television. $B#T#VEEOC$KAaJQ$o$j!*!J9);vITMW!K(B which you have in your home. $BEEOCBe$O!":#$^$G$HF1$8$G$9!#(B Telephone charge is the same as ever. $B1s$/$NM'?M$d2HB2$H!"4i$r8+$J$,$i(B Face to face communication with distant $BOC$;$k$N$G0l0B?4!*!*(B your distant family $BCMCJ$O0lBf$G(B69,000$B1_$G$9!#(B Price per unit: 6,9000 yen $B2<$r%/%j%C%/$7$F$_$F2<$5$$!#(B Please click left below. http://www.academyjapan.co.jp academy@academyjpan.co.jp $B%"%+%G%_!; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from academy@academyjapan.co.jp) Received: from pop111.ocn.ne.jp by pop111.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id AAA22742; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:23:18 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:23:18 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199909021523.AAA22742@pop111.ocn.ne.jp> From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?QWNhZGVteSBKYXBhbn==?= To: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?Y2hhdEBGcmVlQlNELm9yZ2==?= X-Mailer: Direct Email v0.22 Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJUYlbCVTRUVPQyROJCpDTiRpJDshIRsoQkluZm8gb24gVmlkZW9waG9uZW==?= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org $B$3$s$K$A$o!"(B $B$3$l$OJXMx!*(B Here's a good news for you, $B%[%F%k!"N94[!"C1?HIkG$!"N13X$K$b(B a news of the Videophone $B:GE,$J%K%e!<%9(B! over the normal coloer telephone line. $B:#!"@$3&$GOCBj$N4JC1%F%l%SEEOC(B All you have to do is just $B$N>R2p$G$9!#(B connect this videophone with $B<+Bp$N%F%l%S$HEEOC$K$D$J$0$@$1$G(B the telephone and television. $B#T#VEEOC$KAaJQ$o$j!*!J9);vITMW!K(B which you have in your home. $BEEOCBe$O!":#$^$G$HF1$8$G$9!#(B Telephone charge is the same as ever. $B1s$/$NM'?M$d2HB2$H!"4i$r8+$J$,$i(B Face to face communication with distant $BOC$;$k$N$G0l0B?4!*!*(B your distant family $BCMCJ$O0lBf$G(B69,000$B1_$G$9!#(B Price per unit: 6,9000 yen $B2<$r%/%j%C%/$7$F$_$F2<$5$$!#(B Please click left below. http://www.academyjapan.co.jp academy@academyjpan.co.jp $B%"%+%G%_!; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA32076; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:29:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:28:59 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Andre Oppermann Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902092859.A31981@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902004901.A33289@keltia.freenix.fr> <37CE8D51.E3CAA262@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <37CE8D51.E3CAA262@pipeline.ch> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:44:33PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Ollivier Robert writes: > > > According to Josef Grosch: > > > > Greetings from The People's Republic of Brekeley, Vine st. & Milvia st., > > > > also in my office. ;-) > > > Greetings from Les Ulis, France, my home :) > > > > Greetings from the offices of Yes! Interactive in Ski, Norway! > > Greetings from my Office in Zurich, Switzerland and my twenty-something > FreeBSD boxen! > What the hell... Greetings from Guatemala city, Guatemala. Here at the University Francisco Marroquin I'm slowly converting each and every machine to FreeBSD... -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 10: 4:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand5.global.net.uk (sand5.global.net.uk [194.126.80.249]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68EF155C5 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p46s10a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.234.71] helo=marder-1.) by sand5.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11MaH3-0002Ex-00; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:03:45 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id RAA00874; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:56:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:56:03 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: "Arthur H. Johnson II" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. Message-ID: <19990902175603.B296@marder-1> References: <19990901183754.G283@marder-1> <19990902065044.C64923@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990902065044.C64923@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:50:44AM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:50:44AM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > * Mark Ovens (mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) [990901 21:19]: > >On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: > >> I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to > >> seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my > >> mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with > >> important stuff from employees and bosses. > > > >So, if I set up procmail can I use it to grab my e-mail from a POP3 > >server (dial-up ISP account)? I could do with a setup like this > >instead of just having mutt stuff it all in /var/mail/mark. Do you > >know any URL's related to procmail? > > The obvious: > > www.procmail.org > > As Arthur already said in his follow-up mail. Use fetchmail to leech > boxes and then procmail them. > Yep, I've got it all set up now :-) > I have example scripts if ye want/need them... > Yes please, or can you tell me what's wrong with the .procmailrc I've made. Although it puts the stuff from -chat in /var/mail/chat and -questions in /var/mailquestions etc. it also puts a copy in /var/mail/mark, not what I want. I deally, if something is To:'d or Cc:'d to more than one maillist I want copy in each lists mailbox, but only none freebsd.org addressed mail to go in my personal box. This is my .procmailrc: # .procmailrc # routes incoming mail to appropriate mailboxes PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin MAILDIR=/var/mail DEFAULT=/var/mail/mark LOGFILE=$HOME/procmail.log SHELL=/bin/sh :0: *^TO_(chat|advocacy|doc|questions|users)@freebsd { :0 c *^TO_.*chat chat :0 c *^TO_.*doc doc :0 c *^TO_.*advocacy advocacy :0 c *^TO_.*questions questions :0 *^TO_.*users ukusers } > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > Life is just one damned thing after another. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 10:11:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4141553F for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA29461; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:11:23 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04624; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:11:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:11:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Mark Ovens Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. In-Reply-To: <19990902175603.B296@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hummmm, i dont know, but check out mine: # Please check if all the paths in PATH are reachable, remove the ones that # are not. PATH=$PATH MAILDIR=$HOME/mail # You'd better make sure it exists DEFAULT=$MAILDIR/.incomming LOGFILE=$HOME/.procmaillog LOCKFILE=$HOME/.lockmail :0 * ^Subject.*subscribe* work/work :0 * ^Subject.*New Program* work/work :0 * ^Subject.*Program Update* work/work :0 * ^From.*staffroom@tucows.com work/trash :0 * ^To.*list@linuxberg.com work/list :0 * ^To.*suggest@linuxberg.com work/.incomming :0 * ^From.*helpdesk@linuxberg.com work/work :0 * ^From.*@linuxberg.com work/.incomming :0 * ^From.*@tucows.com work/.incomming :0 * ^From.*cvs* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^From.*ports* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^To.*ports* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^From.*Ports* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^To.*Ports* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^From.*current* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^From.*Current* personal/freebsd-os :0 * ^From.*@FreeBSD.ORG personal/freebsd-discussions :0 * ^From.*@freebsd.org personal/freebsd-discussions It might have something to do with the brackets. Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:50:44AM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > * Mark Ovens (mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) [990901 21:19]: > > >On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 01:11:32PM -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: > > >> I just don't know how I lived without procmail! Everything is filtered to > > >> seperate folders now and instead of being delete happy, i actually read my > > >> mailing list mail now at my convienience rather than grouped with > > >> important stuff from employees and bosses. > > > > > >So, if I set up procmail can I use it to grab my e-mail from a POP3 > > >server (dial-up ISP account)? I could do with a setup like this > > >instead of just having mutt stuff it all in /var/mail/mark. Do you > > >know any URL's related to procmail? > > > > The obvious: > > > > www.procmail.org > > > > As Arthur already said in his follow-up mail. Use fetchmail to leech > > boxes and then procmail them. > > > > Yep, I've got it all set up now :-) > > > I have example scripts if ye want/need them... > > > > Yes please, or can you tell me what's wrong with the .procmailrc I've made. Although it puts the stuff from -chat in /var/mail/chat and -questions in /var/mailquestions etc. it also puts a copy in /var/mail/mark, not what I want. I deally, if something is To:'d or Cc:'d to more than one maillist I want copy in each lists mailbox, but only none freebsd.org addressed mail to go in my personal box. > > This is my .procmailrc: > > > # .procmailrc > # routes incoming mail to appropriate mailboxes > > PATH=/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin > MAILDIR=/var/mail > DEFAULT=/var/mail/mark > LOGFILE=$HOME/procmail.log > SHELL=/bin/sh > > :0: > *^TO_(chat|advocacy|doc|questions|users)@freebsd > { > :0 c > *^TO_.*chat > chat > > :0 c > *^TO_.*doc > doc > > :0 c > *^TO_.*advocacy > advocacy > > :0 c > *^TO_.*questions > questions > > :0 > *^TO_.*users > ukusers > > } > > > -- > > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > > Life is just one damned thing after another. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 10:48:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt010nb9.san.rr.com (dt010nb9.san.rr.com [204.210.12.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D040314BF2 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt010nb9.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA43772; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:46:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt010nb9.san.rr.com To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The chat charter. In-Reply-To: <19990902115711.64122@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > > So, Brett, please just go away, and don't bother to come back. > > > > (this is not what I'd *really* like to say, but Jordan threatened to > > take me off the list if I didn't restrain myself) > > If we pay, can we put you and Brett in a cage, and watch you > mudwrestle ? I can get the cage. Doug (They don't call me "Studded" for nuthin' you know.) -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 10:51:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt010nb9.san.rr.com (dt010nb9.san.rr.com [204.210.12.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EAE155F2 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:51:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt010nb9.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA43780 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt010nb9.san.rr.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Normally I'd pass on a thread this, but as so many others have said, "what the heck." :) Greetings from the 13th floor of the Sentre tower in beautiful downtown San Diego, where we have a fabulous 360 degree view of "America's Finest City," and FreeBSD is finally making some inroads after months of prodding by me. Doug (and yes, I really do mean the 13th floor) -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 13:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F8114D0F for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id WAA10023 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:37:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 1B30A870A; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:04:50 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Procmail. Message-ID: <19990902220450.A41164@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <19990902175603.B296@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Arthur H. Johnson II on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 01:11:17PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5543 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Arthur H. Johnson II: > :0 > * ^To.*ports* > personal/freebsd-os It is far easier to dispatch according to Sender: (which is put here just for that). :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-(freebsd-|)current.* freebsd/current :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-(freebsd-|)hardware.* freebsd/hardware PS : and PLEASE trim down quotes when replying, it is wasteful to quote the entire message... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 13:41:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B132B15403 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07685; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:39:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5Lay8o; Thu Sep 2 13:39:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17890; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:40:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909022040.NAA17890@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:40:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Sep 2, 99 10:51:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Normally I'd pass on a thread this, but as so many others have > said, "what the heck." :) > > Greetings from the 13th floor of the Sentre tower in beautiful > downtown San Diego, where we have a fabulous 360 degree view of "America's > Finest City," and FreeBSD is finally making some inroads after months of > prodding by me. > > Doug (and yes, I really do mean the 13th floor) Greetings from the 2nd floor of the IBM Global Services Network Operations Center in Rochester New York (no, I don't normally work from there). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 15:12:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E516C15C9A for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 3482 invoked by alias); 2 Sep 1999 22:11:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 3475 invoked from network); 2 Sep 1999 22:11:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 1999 22:11:36 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:09:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone see this item on slashdot? Someone immediately came to the conclusion that they can now re-release BSD code under the GPL. I'm not sure I see the connection... Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 15:42:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.idiotswitch.org (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B81D14D55 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: from a11.idiotswitch.org (a11.idiotswitch.org [10.0.0.11]) by www.idiotswitch.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B590D91; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:44:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Rod Taylor To: walton@nordicrecords.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:39:48 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99090218411704.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 02 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: > Anyone see this item on slashdot? > Someone immediately came to the conclusion that they can now > re-release BSD code under the GPL. I'm not sure I see the > connection... Aside from me not seeing the connection either, why would we want to restrain freebsd's userbase? Alot of companies like the BSD license the way it is (companies that contribute back even) because of what they can do for their clients because of it. -- Never try to guess your wife's size. Just buy her anything marked 'petite' and hold on to the receipt. (contributed by Chris Johnston) -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 15:49:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEE8614E9D for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id AAA16273 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:47:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 8F504870A; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:41:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:41:41 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990902224141.A41692@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:51:07AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5543 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Doug: > Doug (and yes, I really do mean the 13th floor) I thought US building didn't had any 13th floor (at least in elevators) ? :) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 15:51:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9787C15BA3 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18667; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:49:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990902163233.00b91890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 16:49:50 -0600 To: walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause In-Reply-To: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The connection is that the GPL (anthropomorphically speaking), and its proponents, are greedy. While they accuse vendors of proprietary software of "hoarding" code, they themselves hoard code under the aegis of the GPL, preventing its practical commercial use. Any change in licensing is regarded as an opportunity to pounce. --Brett Glass At 03:09 PM 9/2/99 -0700, Dave Walton wrote: >Anyone see this item on slashdot? >Someone immediately came to the conclusion that they can now >re-release BSD code under the GPL. I'm not sure I see the >connection... > >Dave > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Dave Walton >Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide >walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 16:14:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449E914E9D for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id BAA29184; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:11:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id BAA52938; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:14:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990903011448.47118@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:14:48 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <4.2.0.58.19990902163233.00b91890@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990902163233.00b91890@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:49:50PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > While they accuse vendors of proprietary > software of "hoarding" code, they themselves hoard code under the > aegis of the GPL, How so ? > preventing its practical commercial use. Define "practical commercial use". -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 16:26:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8AB314D0C for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:26:27 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Phil Regnauld" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:26:26 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bef59a$93fd1cc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <19990903011448.47118@ns.int.ftf.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Responding with 2-4 word dumb questions just forces a pointless rehash of what everybody already knows. > Brett Glass writes: > > > While they accuse vendors of proprietary > > software of "hoarding" code, they themselves hoard code under the > > aegis of the GPL, > > How so ? All the GPLed code is extremely hard to use in commercial products. As a result, commercial developers wind up reinventing the wheel and producing lower quality products at higher prices. The benefits nobody. > > preventing its practical commercial use. > > Define "practical commercial use". Including in a commercial product, increasing its quality and decreasing its cost. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 16:29:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B40A14C3C for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 16:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id BAA29282; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:27:48 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id BAA53071; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:30:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990903013046.06406@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:30:46 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990903011448.47118@ns.int.ftf.net> <000001bef59a$93fd1cc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <000001bef59a$93fd1cc0$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:26:26PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz writes: > > Responding with 2-4 word dumb questions just forces a pointless rehash of > what everybody already knows. The question wasn't rhetoric. I'm glad you can answer for Brett. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 17:17:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47C5914D25 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03546; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:32:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Phil Regnauld Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, walton@nordicrecords.com Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause In-Reply-To: <19990903013046.06406@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > David Schwartz writes: > > > > Responding with 2-4 word dumb questions just forces a pointless rehash of > > what everybody already knows. > > The question wasn't rhetoric. > > I'm glad you can answer for Brett. No need for sarcasm, the GPL makes it impossible for commercial companies to incorperate GPL'd code into a propriatary product. This kills the competative advantage the company has. You may think of it as a good thing (forcing source disclosure), but it's not the only way to get the results you want. Many companies have used BSD code and then contributed back some considerable pieces of work, at the same time keeping a competative edge by keeping certain things to themselves. Although many companies play the GPL game, this sort of symbiotic relationship would not be possible under the GPL and it makes for a much more attractive codebase. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 17:26:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B51C14E0D for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19609; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:26:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990902180514.00b96f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 18:06:39 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990903013046.06406@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <000001bef59a$93fd1cc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <19990903011448.47118@ns.int.ftf.net> <000001bef59a$93fd1cc0$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:30 AM 9/3/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >David Schwartz writes: > > > > Responding with 2-4 word dumb questions just forces a pointless rehash of > > what everybody already knows. > > The question wasn't rhetoric. Yes, it was. It seems as if one of your standard tactics, when you don't agree with someone, is to ask sophomoric or obvious questions so as to waste that person's time and bandwidth. > I'm glad you can answer for Brett. He is, in fact, answering for quite a few of us. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 18:14:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.idiotswitch.org (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0352415670 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:14:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: from a11.idiotswitch.org (a11.idiotswitch.org [10.0.0.11]) by www.idiotswitch.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E62A991 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:17:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Rod Taylor To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:10:57 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99090221142707.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 02 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > You may think of it as a good thing (forcing source disclosure), > but it's not the only way to get the results you want. Many > companies have used BSD code and then contributed back some > considerable pieces of work, at the same time keeping a competative > edge by keeping certain things to themselves. I don't suppose you'd be able to write an article for daemonnews which lists some of the code contributed by companies. As well as some reasons why they have contributed. This might be an interesting read for some GPL lovers to show that you don't need to force corporations. Please don't mention the GPL or Linux at all in the article. (I'm getting tired of the comparison drivel, which does seem to continously take pok shots at Linux.) I'd also like to use the article for my advocacy stuff :) -- And when the future hinges on the next words that are said, don't let -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 18:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2831A14DB1; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA18119; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:59:11 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA94306; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:59:11 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:59:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: hoek@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Josef Grosch , Gregory Sutter , Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Message-ID: <19990903105910.Z87614@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990901082805.A11723@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990831234239.U20512@forty-two.egroups.net> <19990831235715.A72154@mooseriver.com> <19990902180419.M87614@freebie.lemis.com> <19990902101259.B1098@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990902101259.B1098@mad>; from Tim Vanderhoek on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:12:59AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 2 September 1999 at 10:12:59 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:04:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> .br >> Printed in the People's Republic of California >> .sp 4i >> This book was written in \fItroff\fP and formatted with the GNU \fIgroff\fP >> package running under FreeBSD 2.1. It was set in ITC Garamond. >> >> Jack Velte wasn't amused, even for a prerelease. > > Haha. Knowing him only from his email, I can only guess at the > extensive lecture you must've gotten. :-) It wasn't that significant. Jack had better things to keep him busy in those days. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 22:17:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com (c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com [24.4.230.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D344415DCB for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com) Received: from localhost (alex@localhost) by c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA04022; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 23:15:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alex@c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 23:15:34 -0600 (MDT) From: alex To: Alex Perel Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With FreeBSD, I've had amazing longevity with my code. Not because they're slow to change, but because, in my opinion, (flame proof clothes ready) it was designed 'right' the first time. -Slashdot On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > > > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > > > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > > > Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the > > Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. > > Greetings from the second floor of my house in Toronto, Canada! Greetings from Aurora, Colorado !! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 2 22:41:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ashleyassociates.co.jp (pc4.ashleyassociates.co.jp [210.171.118.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199BD14EA7 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daniel@ashleyassociates.co.jp) Received: from ashleyassociates.co.jp [210.171.118.2] by mail.ashleyassociates.co.jp with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD5F15AA009C; Fri, 03 Sep 1999 14:27:59 +0900 Message-ID: <37CF5E94.55DA982C@ashleyassociates.co.jp> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 14:37:24 +0900 From: Daniel Jung X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alex Cc: Alex Perel , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetingsfrom San Francisco Downtown) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Konnichiwa from the country where riding trains in the morning to work is living hell but has awesome animes. Once again.... Greetings FreeBSD lovers! Pikachu.... alex wrote: > > With FreeBSD, I've had amazing longevity with my code. > Not because they're slow to change, but because, in my > opinion, (flame proof clothes ready) it was designed > 'right' the first time. -Slashdot > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > > > > > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > > > > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > > > > > Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the > > > Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. > > > > Greetings from the second floor of my house in Toronto, Canada! > > Greetings from Aurora, Colorado !! > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message alex wrote: > > With FreeBSD, I've had amazing longevity with my code. > Not because they're slow to change, but because, in my > opinion, (flame proof clothes ready) it was designed > 'right' the first time. -Slashdot > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > > > > > > Greetings from Blacksburg, in the fourth floor of Rasche Hall, one of > > > > the cadet dormitories at Virginia Tech. > > > > > > Greetings from the second floor of the T&D Department of the > > > Copenhagen Kingdom Hospital, Denmark. > > > > Greetings from the second floor of my house in Toronto, Canada! > > Greetings from Aurora, Colorado !! > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 0:13:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C9B14CC5 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27019; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:43:17 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990903164316:22955=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: <19990902161451.A45136@enterprise.sanyusan.se> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:43:16 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Anders Andersson Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Gianmarco Giovannelli Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990903164316:22955=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 02-Sep-99 Anders Andersson wrote: > Esrange in Sweden? Where is that located? Hmm, Sounds like I need a map. Near the top somewhere.. :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990903164316:22955=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN891DFbYW/HEoF9pAQEC0AP+KxdDxl+KRGL5avQJboLoD3nYWRrGFWZ/ Boj1E2mQwaKCpGIrKrBNvvQxB2gdUzD0vrXN4p16I3YzT0E5f9sABcIq9FUBmLmh vvUqCI8epPrS7L/hCxbPmKb1V748aE4L+AQulgwNQZAroL2OeWfE/IJ3c8pHCDiI fbeRQ7UbFlg= =a38h -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990903164316:22955=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 1: 4: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F35155EE for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08096; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:03:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990902224141.A41692@keltia.freenix.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Sep 1999 10:03:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Ollivier Robert's message of "Thu, 2 Sep 1999 22:41:41 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert writes: > According to Doug: > > Doug (and yes, I really do mean the 13th floor) > I thought US building didn't had any 13th floor (at least in elevators) ? :) You should definitely read Robert Heinlein's short story _The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag_. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 1: 6:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A0014CEE for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08103; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:05:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Matt Meola Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) References: <19990901171256.C18814@futuresouth.com> <28366.936280884@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Sep 1999 10:05:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Matt Meola's message of "Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:01:24 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matt Meola writes: > On Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:12:56 -0500 "Matthew D. Fuller" said: > > However, we stray from the necessary flameage, so for the sake of > > completeness, 'Your mother was a hamster...' > '...And your father smelt of elderberries!' Hmm, it seems to be today's "IMDb movie of the day" :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 1:11: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F8E14FFB for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:11:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08120; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:10:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Sep 1999 10:10:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dave Walton"'s message of "Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:09:19 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dave Walton" writes: > Anyone see this item on slashdot? > Someone immediately came to the conclusion that they can now > re-release BSD code under the GPL. I'm not sure I see the > connection... The advertising clause is a "further restriction" which conflicts with the GPL's requirement that "no further restrictions" be placed on the code. The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to relicense BSD code under the GPL. What a lot of people seem to have missed is that Berkeley's removal of the advertising clause only affects Berkeley's code (that is, code which is "Copyright 19xx The Regents of the University of California.") Any *other* code released under the BSD license *with* the advertising clause is unaffected. Contrast this with the common practice, in the GPL world, of releasing code "under the terms of the GNU Public License version 2 or newer", which makes it possible for the FSF to change the license *even on code they were never involved in writing*. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 2: 6:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F0B15076 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA14002; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:01:50 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA55650; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:04:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990903110451.01960@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:04:52 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Daniel Jung Cc: alex , Alex Perel , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings, Earthlings! Take me to your Jordan. (Re: Greetingsfrom San Francisco Downtown) References: <37CF5E94.55DA982C@ashleyassociates.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <37CF5E94.55DA982C@ashleyassociates.co.jp>; from Daniel Jung on Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 02:37:24PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel Jung writes: > Konnichiwa from the country where riding trains in > the morning to work is living hell You've ridden on Amtrak ? > but has awesome animes. Oh. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 2: 8:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1873015076 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:08:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA14497; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:07:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA55705; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:10:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990903111035.34383@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:10:35 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: David Schwartz , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, walton@nordicrecords.com Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990903013046.06406@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 05:32:12PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein writes: > > No need for sarcasm, the GPL makes it impossible for commercial companies > to incorperate GPL'd code into a propriatary product. This kills the > competative advantage the company has. There, you said it: "makes it impossible for commercial companies" -- that assumes a certain definition of "commercial companies", and to what extent it's "impossible" for them. In the traditional approach of protecting a trade-secret, maybe. But I like people to explain things instead of repeating them like lemmings. > You may think of it as a good thing (forcing source disclosure), > but it's not the only way to get the results you want. I'm neutral to the GPL: I don't use it, but if it fits someone's purpose, good for them. I don't like people who aggressively promote it as the One True License either. But the license in itself is not evil. Just a choice, that people should consider CAREFULLY before making it. There was a very good interview (in one Login of L. Peter Deutsch about his writing Ghostscript, and why he regretted using the GPL). > Although many companies play the GPL game, this sort of symbiotic > relationship would not be possible under the GPL and it makes for > a much more attractive codebase. I don't know about "not possible" -- more difficult in a very competitive envrionment, maybe. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 2:18:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A9814D95 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:18:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:00 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id RWF23XZH; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:15:30 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11MpSN-0000cf-00; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:27 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:27 +0100 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Message-ID: <19990903101626.A1215@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 10:10:54AM +0200 From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 10:10:54AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > What a lot of people seem to have missed is that Berkeley's removal of > the advertising clause only affects Berkeley's code (that is, code > which is "Copyright 19xx The Regents of the University of > California.") What even more people seem to have missed is that new FreeBSD code is down to a two clause license for some time anyhow... /usr/src/COPYRIGHT for those who haven't bothered to pay attention (back of the class, please!). -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "Ordinary folks who don't understand computers don't deserve to be mocked. Ordinary people who want to use their computers but refuse to learn anything about them do." -- slashdot comment ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 2:28:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sandra.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (sandra.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C388214D95 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.60]) by sandra.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06938; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:25:50 +0200 Received: (from tg@localhost) by zabagek.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20432; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:26:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de) To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990903101626.A1215@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> From: Thomas Gellekum In-Reply-To: Dominic Mitchell's message of "Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:27 +0100" Date: 03 Sep 1999 11:26:42 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070095 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.95) XEmacs/20.4 (Emerald) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell writes: > What even more people seem to have missed is that new FreeBSD code is > down to a two clause license for some time anyhow... > > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT for those who haven't bothered to pay attention (back > of the class, please!). # $FreeBSD: src/COPYRIGHT,v 1.2.2.1 1999/08/29 15:55:24 peter Exp $ # @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 [...] 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgement: This product includes software developed by the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors. 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 2:43:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8F9153F2 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:33 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id RWF23X7B; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:03 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11Mpr5-0000fC-00; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:59 +0100 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:41:59 +0100 To: Thomas Gellekum Cc: Dominic Mitchell , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Message-ID: <19990903104158.A2411@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990903101626.A1215@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Thomas Gellekum on Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:26:42AM +0200 From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:26:42AM +0200, Thomas Gellekum wrote: > Dominic Mitchell writes: > > > What even more people seem to have missed is that new FreeBSD code is > > down to a two clause license for some time anyhow... > > > > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT for those who haven't bothered to pay attention (back > > of the class, please!). > > # $FreeBSD: src/COPYRIGHT,v 1.2.2.1 1999/08/29 15:55:24 peter Exp $ > # @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 > [...] > 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > must display the following acknowledgement: > This product includes software developed by the University of > California, Berkeley and its contributors. > 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors > may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software > without specific prior written permission. Darn. I was sure we were down to a 2 clause copyright. Guess I'll have to hunt a little harder... -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "Ordinary folks who don't understand computers don't deserve to be mocked. Ordinary people who want to use their computers but refuse to learn anything about them do." -- slashdot comment ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 5: 6: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7003114DC1 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 05:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25552; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:05:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Rod Taylor Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause In-Reply-To: <99090221142707.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can think of a few riught off ther bat. Whistle, Cybernet, and Walnut Creek....any others? ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Rod Taylor wrote: > On Thu, 02 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > You may think of it as a good thing (forcing source disclosure), > > but it's not the only way to get the results you want. Many > > companies have used BSD code and then contributed back some > > considerable pieces of work, at the same time keeping a competative > > edge by keeping certain things to themselves. > > I don't suppose you'd be able to write an article for daemonnews which lists > some of the code contributed by companies. As well as some reasons why they > have contributed. This might be an interesting read for some GPL lovers to > show that you don't need to force corporations. > > Please don't mention the GPL or Linux at all in the article. (I'm getting > tired of the comparison drivel, which does seem to continously take pok shots > at Linux.) > > I'd also like to use the article for my advocacy stuff :) > > -- > And when the future hinges on the next words that are said, don't let > -- > > Rod Taylor > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 9:17:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9EB14BEB for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA34694; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:01:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:01:20 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Pat Lynch Cc: Rod Taylor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Message-ID: <19990903100120.F34503@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <99090221142707.11076@a11.idiotswitch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 08:05:06AM -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > I can think of a few riught off ther bat. Whistle, Cybernet, and Walnut > Creek....any others? > BSDI? -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 10:48: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA6815C21 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 2341176D; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:47:19 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Message-ID: <19990903104719.C620@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990903101626.A1215@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19990903101626.A1215@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 10:16:27AM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > On Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 10:10:54AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > What a lot of people seem to have missed is that Berkeley's removal of > > the advertising clause only affects Berkeley's code (that is, code > > which is "Copyright 19xx The Regents of the University of > > California.") > > What even more people seem to have missed is that new FreeBSD code is > down to a two clause license for some time anyhow... > > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT for those who haven't bothered to pay attention (back > of the class, please!). http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/freebsd-license.html -Chris -- cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org "One should forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged." --Heinrich Heine To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 11:21: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (n2000039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06F91521A for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA05563; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:21:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <37D01143.2CA9BC5@nisser.com> Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 20:19:47 +0200 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause References: <19990902221136.3481.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > ... > What a lot of people seem to have missed is that Berkeley's removal of > the advertising clause only affects Berkeley's code (that is, code > which is "Copyright 19xx The Regents of the University of > California.") Any *other* code released under the BSD license *with* > the advertising clause is unaffected. Contrast this with the common > practice, in the GPL world, of releasing code "under the terms of the > GNU Public License version 2 or newer", which makes it possible for > the FSF to change the license *even on code they were never involved > in writing*. Not truly in that the user gets to pick the licence he deems best from the entire range starting with the one it was originally released under. That can not be undone. Effectively you're right of course, in that most coders will just release to whatever's the current licence without actually reading or deliberating it. After all, a million lemmings can't be wrong! ;) Still, it does make BSD one of the, if not the, freest OS around. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 16:17:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B066158FB for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 7494 invoked by alias); 3 Sep 1999 23:17:22 -0000 Message-ID: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 7481 invoked from network); 3 Sep 1999 23:17:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 3 Sep 1999 23:17:21 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:15:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com References: "Dave Walton"'s message of "Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:09:19 -0700" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Sep 99, at 10:10, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The advertising clause is a "further restriction" which conflicts with > the GPL's requirement that "no further restrictions" be placed on the > code. Yes, but that isn't the only "restriction" in the BSD license. So what does it change? > The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to > relicense BSD code under the GPL. Does it? Only the copyright holder can change the license, and they can do that whether or not there is an advertising clause. Removal of that clause doesn't allow a third party to change the license, because they don't have that right. > Contrast this with the common > practice, in the GPL world, of releasing code "under the terms of the > GNU Public License version 2 or newer", which makes it possible for > the FSF to change the license *even on code they were never involved > in writing*. I know. So people are running around bragging about how their license ensures that the code is "forever free", while they are using the only license in the world that specifically allows retroactive changes. Talk about failing to grasp the concept... Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 16:30:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7BC150A9 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:30:28 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 16:30:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bef664$4e26f110$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to > > relicense BSD code under the GPL. > > Does it? Only the copyright holder can change the license, and > they can do that whether or not there is an advertising clause. > Removal of that clause doesn't allow a third party to change the > license, because they don't have that right. Yes it does, because the license gives them that right. Try reading it. :) DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 18: 8:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 579CD14C86 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: (qmail 56307 invoked from network); 4 Sep 1999 01:07:54 -0000 Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.42) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 1999 01:07:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:07:54 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com To: Dave Walton Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause In-Reply-To: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 3 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: > > I know. So people are running around bragging about how their > license ensures that the code is "forever free", while they are using > the only license in the world that specifically allows retroactive > changes. Talk about failing to grasp the concept... Typically it says "Version 2 or any later version, at your option." (I am too lazy to go look to seee what the actual wording is.) But it doesn't mean that FSF can change your license to the code. They can only increase your options -- but that does mean they could copy the BSD license terms or something similiar. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 18:29:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5A414D3E for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:29:07 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:29:07 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bef674$e16b08c0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Typically it says "Version 2 or any later version, at your option." (I am > too lazy to go look to seee what the actual wording is.) But it doesn't > mean that FSF can change your license to the code. They can only increase > your options -- but that does mean they could copy the BSD > license terms or > something similiar. > > David Scheidt What it does mean is that if the FSF ever wanted to sell someone code that you wrote and GPLed, they could. They could simply issue a newer version of the GPL that allowed that someone to do whatever it is that they wanted to your code. Suddenly, your code would be licensed under those new terms. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 18:41:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B39514DB5 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 7746 invoked by alias); 4 Sep 1999 01:41:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19990904014121.7744.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 7733 invoked from network); 4 Sep 1999 01:41:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 1999 01:41:21 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: "David Schwartz" , Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 18:39:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Berkeley removes Advertising Clause Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com In-reply-to: <000001bef664$4e26f110$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <19990903231722.7492.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Sep 99, at 16:30, David Schwartz wrote: > > > The removal of the advertising clause makes it possible to > > > relicense BSD code under the GPL. > > > > Does it? Only the copyright holder can change the license, and > > they can do that whether or not there is an advertising clause. > > Removal of that clause doesn't allow a third party to change the > > license, because they don't have that right. > > Yes it does, because the license gives them that right. Try reading it. :) I have, and I don't see that. You can redistribute as long as you meet certain conditions. One of those conditions is that the copyright, conditions, and disclaimer (which constitute the license) be kept. Also, by default, the right to determine the license belongs to the copyright holder, and I don't see anything in the license that specifically assigns that right to the user. Hey, I might be wrong (IANAL). I just don't see what you say is in there. But I'm only too happy to be educated. Please show me where in the license it gives away the right to change the license. Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 22:22:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6663615264 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 22:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA57768 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:31:29 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:31:29 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: DeSpamming a Personal Friend Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have _tried_ to get my friend to stop spreading spam, urban legends, virus warnings. Every time I try I get "lighten up dude" in return. I have less time to turn the tables on him than I do to read his crap. I was thinking of sending him good times spoof via procmail with each "FW:" header. Does anyone have any good ideas on how to get him to realize what a burden he is being? I would really hate to 'cat his_stubborn_@ss > /dev/null'. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 3 23:49:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890F4150BD for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 23:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA14033; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:48:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: DeSpamming a Personal Friend References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Sep 1999 08:48:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:31:29 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > Does anyone have any good ideas on how to get him to realize what a burden > he is being? I would really hate to 'cat his_stubborn_@ss > /dev/null'. Hack up a procmail filter which bounces all his mail with a notice explaining that since his signal-to-noise ratio is too low, you are not accepting mail from him. DES "No mercy to spammers" -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 0:10:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (226-193.adsl2.avtel.net [207.71.226.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B68715161 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Received: from 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (dburr@60-Hz.Powered-By.AC [207.71.226.193]) by 60-Hz.Powered-By.AC (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14640; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr@Powered-By.AC) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:09:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr To: SBLUG Users Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whoo boy, this is pretty scary actually. Big Brother *IS* watching you! -- Donald Burr *NEW!* FreeBSD Dev. | FreeBSD: The WWW: http://www.Powered-By.AC/ *NEW!* ICQ #16997506 | Power to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | Serve! http:// Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | www.freebsd.org/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 02:39:22 GMT From: Pam To: dburr@pobox.com Subject: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:35:19 -0700, Rick Ellis wrote: >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa/ -- my new email address: beep@west.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 1: 3: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 918E31504A for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 01:03:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from walton@nordicrecords.com) Received: (qmail 8649 invoked by alias); 4 Sep 1999 08:00:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19990904080059.8647.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 8630 invoked from network); 4 Sep 1999 08:00:58 -0000 Received: from adsl-216-103-90-137.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net (HELO walton) (216.103.90.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 1999 08:00:58 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Donald Burr , SBLUG Users Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:58:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) Reply-To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Donald Burr said: > Whoo boy, this is pretty scary actually. Big Brother *IS* > watching you! > > >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa/ Here's a page that covers it in more detail: http://www.cryptonym.com/hottopics/msft-nsa.html It includes an interesting detail that CNN missed: "Note for Win2k - there appear to be three keys in Win2k; Microsoft's, the NSA's, and an unknown third party's." Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton Webmaster, Postmaster Nordic Entertainment Worldwide walton@nordicdms.com http://www.nordicdms.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 7:24:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6D9915BFD for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from win98 (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id KAA22145; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909041423.KAA22145@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: "FreeBSD-chat" Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 10:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: DeSpamming a Personal Friend Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04 Sep 1999 08:48:22 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >"Jason C. Wells" writes: >> Does anyone have any good ideas on how to get him to realize what a burden >> he is being? I would really hate to 'cat his_stubborn_@ss > /dev/null'. > >Hack up a procmail filter which bounces all his mail with a notice >explaining that since his signal-to-noise ratio is too low, you are >not accepting mail from him. I must agree with DES here. I had someone I told her 3 times to stop sending me all those warnings and chain letters. By the third letter I was nog on the friendliest of moods and sent her an email telling her to stop or I would have to filter her. She still kept sending those emails... This was on ICQ so I simply added to my list of people to ignore. I don't know if ICQ gives any notification, but at that point I was not hopeful she would stop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 7:37: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (TRAVELERS.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337E614C9B for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 07:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from travelers.mail.cornell.edu (travelers.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.13]) by travelers.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14532; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: cjc26@cornell.edu X-Sender: cjc26@travelers.mail.cornell.edu To: Dave Walton Cc: Donald Burr , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990904080059.8647.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What was it that the CEO of Sun said? "You already don't have any privacy, so get over it"? On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: > Donald Burr said: > > > Whoo boy, this is pretty scary actually. Big Brother *IS* > > watching you! > > > > >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa/ > > Here's a page that covers it in more detail: > > http://www.cryptonym.com/hottopics/msft-nsa.html > > It includes an interesting detail that CNN missed: > > "Note for Win2k - there appear to be three keys in Win2k; > Microsoft's, the NSA's, and an unknown third party's." > > Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 8:49:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.atl.bellsouth.net (mail3.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DD314E8F for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 08:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-100-230.asm.bellsouth.net [216.78.100.230]) by mail3.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00642; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA27325; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:53:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199909041553.LAA27325@bellsouth.net> To: Donald Burr Cc: SBLUG Users , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Sep 1999 00:09:15 PDT." Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 11:53:31 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Whoo boy, this is pretty scary actually. Big Brother *IS* > watching you! Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :-) Seriously, I have been aware of Microsoft's coziness with the NSA since about 1992 when they maintained an office on Microsoft's 'campus' in Redmond. I've always taken it for granted that Microsoft extends them special priviledges. Complaining to your representatives is useless in this case since the NSA operates above the law and with total disregard for the constitutionality of their actions. The only solution (for me at least) is an all-out boycott of Microsoft products. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 11:37:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (ws154.qiv.com [63.68.191.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0896414E7A for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id NAA67066; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:36:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA00887; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:35:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 13:35:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: cjc26@cornell.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 4 Sep 1999 cjc26@cornell.edu wrote: >What was it that the CEO of Sun said? "You already don't have any >privacy, so get over it"? Not completely true, yet. Has anyone considered the very real possiblity that open source software is likely to be one of the next targets of our boys in black? After all, there are only two threats they still face. Secure communication is one. They seem to have closed all communication holes except open source. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 12:34:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tch.org (tacostand.tch.org [199.74.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E22C214BF6 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser@tch.org) Received: (from ser@localhost) by tch.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA16729 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 12:33:26 -0700 From: Steve Rubin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Richard Stevens Message-ID: <19990904123326.A16716@tch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I apologize if this was discussed elsewhere.. STEVENS, W. Richard, noted author of computer books died on September 1. He is best known for his ``UNIX Network Programming'' series (1990, 1998, 1999), ``Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment'' (1992), and ``TCP/IP Illustrated'' series (1994, 1995, 1996). Richard was born in 1951 in Luanshya, Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia), where his father worked for the copper industry. The family moved to Salt Lake City, Hurley, New Mexico, Washington, DC and Phalaborwa, South Africa. Richard attended Fishburne Military School in Waynesboro, Virginia. He received a B.SC. in Aerospace Engineering from the University of Michigan in 1973, and an M.S. (1978) and Ph.D. (1982) in Systems Engineering from the University of Arizona. He moved to Tucson in 1975 and from then until 1982 he was employed at Kitt Peak National Observatory as a computer programmer. From 1982 until 1990 he was Vice President of Computing Services at Health Systems International in New Haven, CT, moving back to Tucson in 1990. Here he pursued his career as an author and consultant. He was also an avid pilot and a part-time flight instructor during the 1970's. He is survived by his loving wife of 20 years, Sally Hodges Stevens; three wonderful children, Bill, Ellen and David; sister, Claire Stevens of Las Vegas, NV; brother, Bob and wife Linda Stevens of Dallas, TX; nieces, Laura, Sarah, Collette, Christy; and nephew, Brad. He is predeceased by his parents, Royale J. Stevens (1915-1984); and Helen Patterson Stevens (1916-1997). Helen lived in Tucson from 1991-1997, and Royale lived here in the early 1930's attending Tucson High School while his father was treated for TB at the Desert Sanitorium (now TMC). The family asks that in lieu of flowers, donations be made in Richard's name to Habitat for Humanity, 2950 E. 22nd Street, Tucson, AZ 85713. A memorial service for Richard will be held at St. Phillip's in the Hills Episcopal Church on Tuesday, September 7th at 12:00 noon. Following the service there will be a reception in the Murphy Gallery of the Church. Please wear colorful clothing to the service; Richard loved colors. -- Steve Rubin - ser@tch.org - http://www.tch.org/~ser/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 15:16:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBF915491 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 15:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-154.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.154]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA20491; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:15:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA74346; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 17:15:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199909042215.RAA74346@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: walton@nordicrecords.com Cc: Donald Burr , SBLUG Users , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door open to NSA - September 3, 1999 (fwd) In-reply-to: Message from "Dave Walton" of "Sat, 04 Sep 1999 00:58:39 PDT." <19990904080059.8647.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 17:15:41 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dave Walton" writes: > Donald Burr said: > > > Whoo boy, this is pretty scary actually. Big Brother *IS* > > watching you! > > > > >http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/03/windows.nsa/ > > Here's a page that covers it in more detail: > > http://www.cryptonym.com/hottopics/msft-nsa.html > > It includes an interesting detail that CNN missed: > > "Note for Win2k - there appear to be three keys in Win2k; > Microsoft's, the NSA's, and an unknown third party's." That one must belong to CDC (Cult of the Dead Cow) :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 16:41: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E815E151A6 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 16:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27788; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 16:44:37 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01019; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 19:40:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199909042215.RAA74346@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 19:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: David Kelly Subject: Re: (fwd) CNN - Crypto expert: Microsoft products leave door ope Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Sep-99 David Kelly wrote: > That one must belong to CDC (Cult of the Dead Cow) :-) Ohhhh.. I thought you meant Center for Disease Control at first.. I was scared to death, but maan, cDc is _way_ better than a government agency! :-> Can't have M$ trying to help test biological warfare through Windoze machines! -- Will Andrews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 4 21:27: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu (exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974041502E for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 21:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu (ppp25.pm2a.wport.com [206.129.99.74]) by exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id RKP9HDML; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 21:25:10 -0700 Message-ID: <37D1F111.BBCB3D3C@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999 21:26:57 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Greetings from San Francisco Downtown References: <19990902224141.A41692@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Doug: > > Doug (and yes, I really do mean the 13th floor) > > I thought US building didn't had any 13th floor (at least in elevators) ? :) Its one of those deals where the contractor won't put it in because the landlords might be superstitious, but failing that, the landlord will say now because the leaser might be superstitious. Bah. There is a building being put up in Bellevue, WA that has a concrete shaft of some sort with numbers painted on the outside. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 ... -- Eric Hodel - hodeleri@seattleu.edu | Customers will come to our Aspiring programmer & FPS minor demi-god. | 'home page' in unbelievable ------------------------------------------/ numbers and find out every- thing we want them to know. --Bill Gates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message