From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 0:14:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from balsam.methow.com (balsam.methow.com [206.107.156.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C7CD1525C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:14:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcole@balsam.methow.com) Received: (qmail 13992 invoked by uid 535); 12 Sep 1999 07:14:17 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:14:17 -0700 From: Travis Cole To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 11:50:41PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been lurking on this list for a while and though I would speak up. I am actualy interesting in some (not all) of what Brett has to say. If you are not interested, that is what procmail filters and delete are for. -- --Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 1:29:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030B714CC8 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id SAA09297; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:28:49 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma009292; Sun, 12 Sep 99 18:28:46 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21235; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:28:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18908; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:27:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20008; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:27:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Travis Cole Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? References: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> In-Reply-To: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> from Travis Cole at "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:14:17 -0700" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:27:59 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 12th September 1999, Travis Cole wrote: >I am actualy interesting in some (not all) of what Brett has to say. > >If you are not interested, that is what procmail filters and delete are for. The problem is that he continually attacks Jordan and various other contributors and challenges them to respond to his posts. As far as I can tell, this has done nothing except waste the time of active project supporters and contributors. I support free speech and such, but if Brett kept a bit quieter more useful work would get done. I've been successfully ignoring Brett for ages now, but every time he drags Jordan into another pointless argument, I grind my teeth. Brett, the project is doing fine, Jordan is a fine lad, the sun is shining on us all. Save your anger for real problems, like fighting the oppressive governments you see on the news every evening. Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 2:13:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A441814BD4 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.148]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA5853; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:13:42 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA81796; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:08:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:08:19 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: How about another mailing list? Message-ID: <19990912110819.B81750@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199909120131.VAA09514@arutam.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <199909120131.VAA09514@arutam.inch.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Francisco Reyes (freyes@inch.com) [990912 04:44]: >Many of the questions posted in the "questions" list are related to >some of the server daemons (i.e. sendmail, apache, squid) commonly used >with FreeBSD. > >How about a list for them? >Freebsd-daemons How about a a few parts in the FAQ, pointing at the daemons' FAQs? I mean, ask if they read a FAQ or manual and the answer is 9 times out of 10: "no". -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best When faith is lost, when honor dies, The man is dead! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 2:13:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4F214DDA for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.148]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB5853; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:13:43 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA81792; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:06:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:06:56 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best Message-ID: <19990912110656.A81750@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199909120128.VAA09328@arutam.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: <199909120128.VAA09328@arutam.inch.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Francisco Reyes (freyes@inch.com) [990912 04:44]: >There is an article at Linux Weekly News http://www.lwn.net/ how BIND >8.2 will have some code which although still free to distribute it will >not meet %100 the definition of Open Source. > >There are a number of people who seem to be outraged at this >restrictions and are crying out for changing the parts of BIND that use >DNSafe. So we are basically saying ... it works, it is free, we can >change it, but.... let's go and re-do it anyway.. and with any luck we >will leave some bugs or use not as safe methods. Sick part is, there's even a GPL BIND project somewhere, can't remember the name now though... That one is definitely not coming on my boxes anytime soon... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best There are only 2 families in the world, the Haves, and the Have Nots. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 2:54:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864941525C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 02:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA45110; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:24:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 22:24:28 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Doug , Donald Burr , Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... Message-ID: <19990911222428.A44368@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in > Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides > if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 4:45: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2844E14C25 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 04:45:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13703; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:44:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: wwoods@cybcon.com Cc: jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please don't let Timor people die References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Sep 1999 13:44:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: William Woods's message of "Sat, 11 Sep 1999 10:29:10 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -security] William Woods writes: > On 11-Sep-99 jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt wrote: > > In the referendum promoted by UN 80 % of East Timor people voted for > > Independence. Since then thousands on people have been killed > > JUST FOR THEIR VOTE . Almost all international journalists have been > > forced to leave East Timor ( only four rested ) . > > [...] > Fuck off..... It's spam, but it's well-meaning spam. If you don't like it, killfile it, blackhole the sender's domain, or just ignore it, but there's no reason to be rude. If you need someone to be rude to, talk to Brett Glass . Invite him to go with you on a holiday trip to East Timor, or something. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 4:58:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FA814D68 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 04:58:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13721; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:58:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: jorgandar blackmoon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ethernet device References: <19990910230709.24160.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Sep 1999 13:58:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: jorgandar blackmoon's message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:07:09 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jorgandar blackmoon writes: > Ok i have a newbie question. I have a NetGear ethernet card, and > currently FreeBSD only seems to support 3Com (blahhhh...far overpriced > for it's worth...) and others. "only 3Com and others"? Take a closer look at the HCL in the handbook: DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 6:21:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED50214A06 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id JAA13902; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909121321.JAA13902@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:22:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:06:56 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Sick part is, there's even a GPL BIND project somewhere, can't remember >the name now though... Definitely too many people with too much time in their hands. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 6:32:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB59114D3B for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id JAA14137; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909121327.JAA14137@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:28:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: How about another mailing list? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:08:19 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>How about a list for them? >>Freebsd-daemons > >How about a a few parts in the FAQ, pointing at the daemons' FAQs? > >I mean, ask if they read a FAQ or manual and the answer is 9 times out >of 10: "no". Wouldn't they need to read the FreeSD FAQ first? :-) I think that people will ask questions about daemons no matter what. Even if we do such new list, there will still be people who will ask them in "questions". I am just hoping that such list will help to organize the questions. It is also to be said in favor of new users who don't read FAQs that they simply need time to adjust if they are coming from a non Unix like OS. Other times one does one's searches the wrong route and read FAQs and man pages, but since one is clueless one was reading the wrong ones. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 6:47:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE12A14D48 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 06:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA27874; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909121347.JAA27874@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "David Scheidt" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:47:59 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:52:16 -0500 (CDT), David Scheidt wrote: >> >What do you get over qmail, postfix or even plain ole sendmail, >> >> Easy installation of a POP server, MTA and list server. >> >POP: >su - root >cd /usr/ports/mail/popper >make && make install >sed s/^#pop3/pop3/ /etc/inetd.conf > /tmp/inetd.conf && mv /tmp/inetd.conf \ > /etc/inetd.conf If I had found those notes in the past I may have tried it.. :-) >MTA: >sendmail works out of the box. Before I went to to look for a POP server and even before I thought of chancing my MTA I had looked at sendmail. I bought the sendmail book and printed all info I could find in sendmail security, virtual email, etc... I thought I had all the information I needed and was planning to use it. The one thing that made me shy away from it was the thought of setting up security properly.Even that I had printouts from sendmail.org with all the different configurations, but it seemed a challenge. The best option seemed to be pop before relay. When I downloaded Dmail to check the pop server I noticed it had an MTA and decided to give it a try. Worst case I could run back to sendmail. After Dmail was installed and I read how easy it was to setup some minimun level of security I came to realize that at least for my home box all I need is to limit by host and this was practically trivial so I was very happy. >cd /usr/ports/mail/majordomo >make && make install >configure it, which is a PIA, I admit. List management was again something I wasn't looking for, but when I saw it was there I will give it a try. >Alternativly, go grab listar from www.listar.org. It works quite nicely on >*BSD. (I plan on turning it into a port, just as soon as I figure that out. >Is there a reference on how to do that? ) I didn't really needed a list manager, since my web provider let's me have Majordomo and they will only charge like $10 per list configuration and no monthly cost. I will look at Dlist and if it is as easy to configure as the smtp/pop part of Dmail I may use it for sending jokes to my friends, but not really have any plans for anything more serious than that. In particular at home I have a modem connection so it doesn't make sense to run big lists. >My home machines have zero users other than me. The machine on my desk at >work has two or three users, runs a group mailing list, and such. All free >software, 90% of which worked out of the box. (I made popper and listar; >total time invested: less than 2 hours. ..And that is why those software made sense to you. In my case I had spent money and much more than 2 hours just reading up on sendmail (in preparation of trying to use it) and about 2 hours just searching dejanews for which pop server to use. The whole dmail installation (not countain download which was about 15 minutes) was about 20 minutes. >That's fine. Most of what you get works out of the box, The issue is "does it do what I want". Sendmail works out of the box if you just want to pass mail, but once you want to have some security built in and not have it too restrictive, but yet secure.. and once you get into virtual email, etc.. then it becomes a pain. >The best solutions in this case are the open source ones. There are >certainly things that there are no good open source solutions for, and in >those cases, I will use a commerical product. The best solution is what one can get to work with the least amount of time, does ALL you need and is either free or it's cost is less than what it would cost in time to go with a different solution. >But for most people, it works out of the box on FreeBSD. It appears that >for the people that the free version of dmail works for, will have the >default sendmail setup work. But I don't want default behavior. I want to do some virtual names, and have some security.. The other thing I am going to get from the company that makes Dmail is a web interface... And yes I know there are free alternatives and I also have already spent hours searching and reading all emails about it that I bump into, but I am sure that It will be easier to go with their solution. >qmail's big advantage is that it scales really well to multiple servers So that is a feature that makes it an appropiate solution for someone looking for scalability.Definitely not my case. After all was said and done I still think that "for me" Dmail is a good solution. I never claimed it was good for everybody, but for some people it may prove just what the doctor ordered. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 8: 3: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5575B15414 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08293; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:02:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: David Scheidt Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah I know the person who wrote Listar, and we discussed its portability to *BSD. I'm sure he would love to have it in the ports tree. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 8: 9:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB63E14D70 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08353; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:08:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Stephen McKay Cc: Travis Cole , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah I think Brett would serve us alot better by going to some linux lists...wait a minute....maybe he's a plant from the linux people... /me starts playing the song "Double Agent" by Rush. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Sunday, 12th September 1999, Travis Cole wrote: > > >I am actualy interesting in some (not all) of what Brett has to say. > > > >If you are not interested, that is what procmail filters and delete are for. > > The problem is that he continually attacks Jordan and various other > contributors and challenges them to respond to his posts. As far as I > can tell, this has done nothing except waste the time of active project > supporters and contributors. I support free speech and such, but if Brett > kept a bit quieter more useful work would get done. I've been successfully > ignoring Brett for ages now, but every time he drags Jordan into another > pointless argument, I grind my teeth. > > Brett, the project is doing fine, Jordan is a fine lad, the sun is shining > on us all. Save your anger for real problems, like fighting the oppressive > governments you see on the news every evening. > > Stephen. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 8:20:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FF1154E2 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 08:20:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14251; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:20:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Francisco Reyes" Cc: "David Scheidt" , "FreeBSd Chat list" Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. References: <199909121347.JAA27874@vulcan.addy.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Sep 1999 17:20:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes"'s message of "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:47:59 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Francisco Reyes" writes: > When I downloaded Dmail to check the pop server I noticed it had > an MTA and decided to give it a try. Worst case I could run back > to sendmail. After Dmail was installed and I read how easy it > was to setup some minimun level of security I came to realize > that at least for my home box all I need is to limit by host and > this was practically trivial so I was very happy. Wait a second - you say you're concerned about security, but you trust an MTA and a POP server to which you don't have the source code. Spot any inconsistencies? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 9:20:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CD614EB3 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09673 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:17:31 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:17:31 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best In-Reply-To: <19990912110656.A81750@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >* Francisco Reyes (freyes@inch.com) [990912 04:44]: >>There is an article at Linux Weekly News http://www.lwn.net/ how BIND >>8.2 will have some code which although still free to distribute it will >>not meet %100 the definition of Open Source. I read this brief on slashdot. What /. says is "does not meet the Free Software Definition of Debian." Does it really not meet the OSD from opensource.org? Is DNSafe an addon that sullies tho openness of the entire BIND package? This whole thing seems to be a great way to plug something BINDish from the Gnu camp. I read slashdot a lot. When it comes to licensing I take it with two tablespoons of soy sauce. Beside, read Ousterhout's commitment to free software. He states that if he ever closed TCL then the free software community would start with the last free version and continue development. BIND is also subject to this threat. The scary part is that the NIH people are pushing their ground up reimplementation, not for the sake of technology, but licensing. The B in BIND stands for Berkeley. If BIND ends up closed there is nothing preventing *BSD from becoming the ersatz custodian of BIND. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 9:53:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1041515505 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04547; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:53:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37DBDA70.DAB93A49@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 09:53:04 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0904 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Nonetheless, there seems to be a relatively small group of people > who can be relied upon to pounce on anyone one who asks questions > that are, er, inconvenient. What you're saying is simply not true. I ask inconvenient and annoying questions all the time, but no one has ever "pounced" on me. I either get A) ignored, B) answers. On the other hand, there is a large group of people who find you to be nothing but annoying, and a minority (perhaps even a significant one) who still find you either entertaining or thought provoking. Personally, I find your arguments to be either inane, incomprehensible or both. It also occurred to me quite a while ago that you get GREAT joy out of stirring things up, and you use any means possible to do so. Therefore I've simply stopped responding to your posts, and frankly I too wish you'd just go away. My whole purpose in responding to this one is simply to point out to those members of the list that may not know better that the FreeBSD project is not above criticism, and they need not fear expressing their opinions. It really isn't WHAT you say brett, in fact, it's not even really HOW you say it. Frankly, it's YOU brett. We don't like you. We don't like that you're just here to stir up trouble, and in fact I think the best thing that could happen would be for you to go start your own distribution, since the spectacular failure that you are going to create for yourself may, finally, shut you up. At least for a week or two. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 10: 7:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4859B14C9F for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42858; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:43:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:43:28 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Greg Lehey Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) Message-ID: <19990912114328.A41092@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 11:03:29AM +0930 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh bloody hell. On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 11:03:29AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 8 September 1999 at 22:52:54 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > >>> I think it's high time you put your > >>> money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. > > > >> I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? > > > > "We" means at least DES and myself. > > And me. I agree entirely. > > Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on > the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or > at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being > forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. Put me in the disagree strongly camp. Brett's asking questions, he's not flaming anyone, he's hardly frothing at the mouth, as other people have characterised it, and he's raised interesting points about the precise relationship between FreeBSD and WC. I can fully accept that when this was a smaller project it was perfectly acceptable to have a fairly nebulous and undefined relationship with WC. They give us 'x' (where 'x' is server space, promotional opportunities, and, in some cases, employment) and we cater our release schedule around their release schedule, make sure they're mentioned prominently online, and so on. But the FreeBSD project is getting larger, and will continue to do so. There will come a point where that sort of nebulous and (apparently) not well defined relationship will need to be made clearer and more explicit. Brett certainly does not deserve censure for pointing this out. About the only thing he has done is re-post questions that he's already asked before. But since the answers he was getting were either (a) not from people who could actually comment accurately anyway (which is most of us replying on this thread actually -- if you're e-mail address doesn't end @cdrom.com and you're not Brett then you can't really add anything useful to the discussion) or (b) were so well qualified with 'if', 'perhaps', and 'maybe' that they are, to all intents and purposes, useless. As I've already commented by private e-mail to both Brett and Jordan, they should be on the phone to one another at this point, trying to sort it out. And if Jordan hasn't got the time or the inclination to do so then he should hand the responsibility off to someone else at Walnut Creek to do so. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 11: 4:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07FAE14D2E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09977 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:51:24 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:51:24 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: FreeBSD-bies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. I kind of like it. FreeBSD-bies, BSD-bies, OpenBSD-bies, NetBSD-bies. It just rolls off the tongue. If you like it, use it. Call me crazy, if this jargon catches on it could create an aura of community to those outside the community. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 11:15:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4065E15826 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.156]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA73F1; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:13:45 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA86357; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:07 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please don't let Timor people die Message-ID: <19990912200307.E83446@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7i In-Reply-To: Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no) [990912 16:05]: >It's spam, but it's well-meaning spam. If you don't like it, killfile >it, blackhole the sender's domain, or just ignore it, but there's no >reason to be rude. If you need someone to be rude to, talk to Brett >Glass . Invite him to go with you on a holiday trip >to East Timor, or something. Apparantly Mount Vesuvius is lovely this time of year as well =) Or Libanon, it appears they like photographers =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 11:43:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [209.145.74.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DB914C10 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00505; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:42:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:42:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dirk GOUDERS , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More press In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Dirk GOUDERS writes: > > Oh, sorry -- my "browse-url-at-mouse" function made > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/02c36562c23246242c00.html > > > > of it... > > Netscape uses commans to separate parameters to the OpenURL command. > Fortunately, the API is open and documented, so there's nothing to > stop someone from writing a small command-line util that does the > equivalent of "netscape -remote" except faster and better. Note, I redirected this to -chat. Try the following: : adrian@lorax; cat ~/bin/netscape_r #!/bin/sh if [ $# != 1 ]; then echo "netscape_r URL" exit 1; fi URL=$(echo $1 | sed -e 's/,/%2c/g') exec /usr/local/bin/netscape -remote "openURL(${URL})" I set 'netstape_r' as my external browser in pine and it works just fine. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12: 5:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279F714DBC for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA15212; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:05:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Sep 1999 21:05:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:51:24 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. Umm, yes, but what does it *mean*? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12: 9:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand2.global.net.uk (sand2.global.net.uk [195.147.246.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED8814DBB for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pees01a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.145.239] helo=marder-1.) by sand2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11QEzr-0004tK-00; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:09:08 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id UAA00492; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:00:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:00:52 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: wwoods@cybcon.com, jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt, FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Please don't let Timor people die Message-ID: <19990912200052.A273@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 01:44:59PM +0200 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 01:44:59PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > [moved from -security] > > William Woods writes: > > On 11-Sep-99 jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt wrote: > > > In the referendum promoted by UN 80 % of East Timor people voted for > > > Independence. Since then thousands on people have been killed > > > JUST FOR THEIR VOTE . Almost all international journalists have been > > > forced to leave East Timor ( only four rested ) . > > > [...] > > Fuck off..... > > It's spam, but it's well-meaning spam. If you don't like it, killfile > it, blackhole the sender's domain, or just ignore it, but there's no > reason to be rude. If you need someone to be rude to, talk to Brett > Glass . Invite him to go with you on a holiday trip > to East Timor, or something. > ROFL (before wiping spilt coffee from keyboard) > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12:30:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1065F14BE9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id OAA88419 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:30:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA02844 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:28:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:28:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <19990912154950.D10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For whatever my opinion may be worth, the list charter suggests that this is the place for any discussion at all. As much as I disagree with Brett's egalitarian vision of FreeBSD's future and strident advocacy, I dislike the sophomoric and sometimes acid responses he seems to draw from others on this list. Would I be out of line suggesting that those who don't like what Brett writes simply not read or respond? To expel someone from this list simply because they are disliked doesn't speak well for those on this list or the FreeBSD community. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12:42:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A9414A2D for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from pees01a02.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.145.239] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11QFVT-00067B-00; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:41:47 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id UAA00717; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:33:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:33:30 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Dirk GOUDERS , Wes Peters , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More press Message-ID: <19990912203330.A668@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 02:42:58PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 02:42:58PM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > On 12 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Dirk GOUDERS writes: > > > Oh, sorry -- my "browse-url-at-mouse" function made > > > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/02c36562c23246242c00.html > > > > > > of it... > > > > Netscape uses commans to separate parameters to the OpenURL command. > > Fortunately, the API is open and documented, so there's nothing to > > stop someone from writing a small command-line util that does the > > equivalent of "netscape -remote" except faster and better. > > Note, I redirected this to -chat. > > Try the following: > > : adrian@lorax; cat ~/bin/netscape_r > #!/bin/sh > if [ $# != 1 ]; then > echo "netscape_r URL" > exit 1; > fi > URL=$(echo $1 | sed -e 's/,/%2c/g') > exec /usr/local/bin/netscape -remote "openURL(${URL})" > Do you happen to know how to pass URLs containing commas to Netscape this way? I use urlview with this in ~/.urlview: COMMAND netscape -remote 'openURL(%s)' however Netscape barfs on URLs that contain things like: 30999847,0,19,1.html the kind of thing you see in zdnet URLs for instance. I've tried wrapping ``%s'' in both double and single quotes (not at the same time ;-) ) but they just get passed literally. The problem seems to be with Netscape, not urlview. > I set 'netstape_r' as my external browser in pine and it works just > fine. > > Adrian > -- > [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12:45:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r28.bfm.org [216.127.220.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C665154D4 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA00259; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:45:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:44:53 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: When they came for Brett Message-ID: <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> References: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:27:59PM +1000 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE X-SG-Player-ID: 0278852114 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 06:27:59PM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >The problem is that he continually attacks Jordan and various other >contributors and challenges them to respond to his posts. As far as I >can tell, this has done nothing except waste the time of active project >supporters and contributors. I support free speech and such, but if Brett >kept a bit quieter more useful work would get done. I've been successfully >ignoring Brett for ages now, but every time he drags Jordan into another >pointless argument, I grind my teeth. I, too, support free speech. I used to read Brett's messages, even discuss things with him. Now I delete them without reading. After all, you have read one of his messages, you have read them all. I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a dangerous precedent. Otherwise, the day might come I'd be saying: "When they came for Brett, I did not protest because he was a troll..... When they came for me, there was no one left to protest." Besides, it is my suspicion, all the people who keep rebutting Brett, *want* to discuss things with him (or perhaps just hope to cause him a heart attack). Everyone knows that he will respond to every single message to him, so if they really did not want to see his messages, they would ignore him, or even filter him out. Cheers, Adam -- When two do the same, it's not the same -- Slovak proverb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 12:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06F1C14A0E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:59:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA84896; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:57:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:57:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Mark Ovens Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Dirk GOUDERS , Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More press In-Reply-To: <19990912203330.A668@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: | The problem seems to be with Netscape, not urlview. The problem is ALWAYS with Netscape. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13: 6:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECC5614A0E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:06:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14572; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:06:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:06:06 -0600 To: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: References: <19990912154950.D10106@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:28 PM 9/12/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: >As much as I disagree with Brett's egalitarian vision of FreeBSD's >future and strident advocacy, I realize that not everyone agrees with the idea of strident advocacy (though, from a memetic viewpoint, it is something that has to be done, IMHO). And, as I say frequently, disagreement is fine: while it sometimes leads to arguments, it also leads to thoughtful examination of the issues. But, just out of curiosity, why do you disagree with the notion of egalitarianism -- or at least even-handedness -- where distributions are concerned? If FreeBSD becomes known as, effectively, the property of Walnut Creek CDROM, it will almost certainly dampen contributors' desire to contribute. They will realize that they are working not for the good of all but -- to a large extent -- for the exclusive benefit of Walnut Creek CDROM. This would not be a good thing, and therefore the impediments to the creation of alternative distributions should be removed. In addition, the existence of multiple distributions means more contributions of money, time, and advocacy by the creators of those distributions. This can only be a good thing. >I dislike the sophomoric and sometimes >acid responses he seems to draw from others on this list. So do I, and I must admit that I don't fully understand why the people who post them are showing such venom. Nothing I've said, or would like to do, is adverse to the interests or success of FreeBSD as a development project, and postings which characterize me as an "enemy of the project" seem more designed to prejudice others against me than to contribute something constructive to the discussion. In fact, I think that my proposals stand to do the project great good. >Would I be out of line suggesting that those who don't like what Brett >writes simply not read or respond? This is what I do when I find that I'm not interested in a topic. (I don't generally tune out individual people, because I want to hear what they have to say even if I don't agree with them. But your mileage may vary, of course.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:22:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B756154F9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA86285; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:22:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: | In addition, the existence of multiple distributions means more contributions | of money, time, and advocacy by the creators of those distributions. This | can only be a good thing. Depends..what if each distributor starts putting in their own "enhancements" and different utilities and whatnot, a la Linux, to the point where the different distributions aren't compatible anymore? That would be BAD. :) That's what I really like about FreeBSD, there's one standard distro with the same setup and utilities installed everywhere. I do think it's important to disentangle FreeBSD from Walnut Creek, though. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:39:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A45D153F0 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072F23453; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:39:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Greg Lehey Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) In-Reply-To: <19990912110329.M10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I vote to let Brett Glass stay. If I don't like what he (or anyone else for that matter) has to say in a particular post, I can delete it and move on. Or I can use procmail and send his posts to /dev/null. Notice in the above that any actions taken are those of an individual - not the collective or the mob. Yes, I will agree that sometimes that when I see Brett's name in the From: field I say to myself, "here we go again" but of late he has raised some interesting issues that many in the FreeBSD community either already know the answers to or haven't given much thought, especially the relationship betweeen FreeBSD and Walnut Creek. Anyway, it's just -chat... On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 11:03:29 +0930 > From: Greg Lehey > To: W Gerald Hicks > Cc: Brett Glass , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net > Subject: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) > > On Wednesday, 8 September 1999 at 22:52:54 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > >>> I think it's high time you put your > >>> money where your mouth is. Go away. We're not interested. > > > >> I note that you use the royal "we" here. Are you royalty? > > > > "We" means at least DES and myself. > > And me. I agree entirely. > > Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on > the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or > at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being > forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:40:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [209.145.74.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36308153F0 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00674; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:38:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@ubergeeks.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Mark Ovens Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Dirk GOUDERS , Wes Peters , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More press In-Reply-To: <19990912203330.A668@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 02:42:58PM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On 12 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > Dirk GOUDERS writes: > > > > Oh, sorry -- my "browse-url-at-mouse" function made > > > > > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/02c36562c23246242c00.html > > > > > > > > of it... > > > > > > Netscape uses commans to separate parameters to the OpenURL command. > > > Fortunately, the API is open and documented, so there's nothing to > > > stop someone from writing a small command-line util that does the > > > equivalent of "netscape -remote" except faster and better. > > > > Note, I redirected this to -chat. > > > > Try the following: > > > > : adrian@lorax; cat ~/bin/netscape_r > > #!/bin/sh > > if [ $# != 1 ]; then > > echo "netscape_r URL" > > exit 1; > > fi > > URL=$(echo $1 | sed -e 's/,/%2c/g') > > exec /usr/local/bin/netscape -remote "openURL(${URL})" > > > > Do you happen to know how to pass URLs containing commas to Netscape > this way? Read the sed command in the script. Yes, it handles commas just fine. They are correctly encoded with their hex character number. > I use urlview with this in ~/.urlview: > > COMMAND netscape -remote 'openURL(%s)' > > however Netscape barfs on URLs that contain things like: > > 30999847,0,19,1.html > > the kind of thing you see in zdnet URLs for instance. I've tried > wrapping ``%s'' in both double and single quotes (not at the same > time ;-) ) but they just get passed literally. > > The problem seems to be with Netscape, not urlview. The problem is with the urlview script. Netscape is just receiving a single string via the -remote option, "open......)". The embedded commas look like argument separators to netscape for the openURL() function. cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:42:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03F38153F0 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:42:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 65343 invoked by uid 1003); 12 Sep 1999 20:43:30 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:43:30 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies Message-ID: <19990912224330.A64771@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:05:37PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun 1999-09-12 (21:05), Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. > > Umm, yes, but what does it *mean*? FreeBSD users, apparently (according to Jason's -questions post), much like "FreeBSD'ers" or "Linuxite" (for Linux, obviously). Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:47:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD42814BC3 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09910; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:47:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:47:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When they came for Brett In-Reply-To: <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a > dangerous precedent. I would second this although I've also had long drawn out "conversations" on various subjects. That said I _often_ wish he would just be quiet or use a more direct way (like actually calling Walnut Creek/Jordan about the specific questions he has) to communicate. > Everyone knows that he will respond to every single message to him, so > if they really did not want to see his messages, they would ignore > him, or even filter him out. This is not always true. If you form your questions/comments so that they are very very specific he will ignore them. He recently said he'd been doing a lot of advocacy and Jordan, among others, noted that we haven't seen any of these articles. I would personally like to see them so I can read them (because I do enjoy his articles usually) and so I can put pointers to them in Daemon News. I then asked him to please send me where these were published, even if it was solely in print. I've never heard back from him. The reason people get annoyed with Brett is that he always says he's doing something or willing to do something but then never, as far as we (speaking for the people on the list - kinda bold) can tell follows through with any actual work. He's like a foreman who sits on his butt all day telling people what to do while a house is being built but couldn't personally hammer a nail if he was asked to. And Brett, if you're reading this I would _still_ like pointers to these recent articles. Brett Taylor ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Co-editor in Chief brett@daemonnews.org * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:50:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B901214BC3 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA91516; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:50:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:50:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies In-Reply-To: <19990912224330.A64771@rucus.ru.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: | > > In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. | > | > Umm, yes, but what does it *mean*? | | FreeBSD users, apparently (according to Jason's -questions post), much like | "FreeBSD'ers" or "Linuxite" (for Linux, obviously). Excuse me, but the correct term is "Linux weenies". -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ There are more stars in the sky than there are -><- grains of sand on all the beaches of the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 13:57:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 188F014BC3 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:57:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jay Nelson" , Subject: RE: Brett or no Brett? Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 13:57:20 -0700 Message-ID: <000001befd61$6769baf0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But, just out of curiosity, why do you disagree with the notion of > egalitarianism -- or at least even-handedness -- where distributions are > concerned? If FreeBSD becomes known as, effectively, the property of > Walnut Creek CDROM, it will almost certainly dampen contributors' > desire to contribute. They will realize that they are working not for the > good of all but -- to a large extent -- for the exclusive benefit > of Walnut Creek CDROM. This would not be a good thing, and therefore the > impediments to the creation of alternative distributions should > be removed. Bluntly, if two things are not equally good, it is not sensible to treat them equally. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 14:14:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277DD14D80 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15085; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:14:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:14:09 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jay Nelson" , From: Brett Glass Subject: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: jkh@cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <000001befd61$6769baf0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:57 PM 9/12/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Bluntly, if two things are not equally good, it is not sensible to treat >them equally. Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If so, who is to judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or she should be treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he or she is not of sufficient "quality?" In the more specific case of the FreeBSD project and creators of FreeBSD distributions: Does it make sense to favor large companies over small ones? Or older ones over newcomers? Or established but less daring distributions over ones that try to "push the envelope?" If a distribution has more bugs or problems than another (perhaps because it attempted to add great new features), but is working to improve, should it be penalized in any other way than by the marketplace? IMHO, the answer to all of the questions in the paragraph immediately above is a resounding "no." FreeBSD, Inc. should set a level playing field for all would-be distributors, and then allow the marketplace to reward or penalize the products based on user experience. This is what is occurring in the Linux world, and it works fantastically. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 14:51:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EA1521553E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 71050 invoked from network); 12 Sep 1999 21:51:52 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 12 Sep 1999 21:51:52 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:51:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990912215155.EA1521553E@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > But, just out of curiosity, why do you disagree with the notion of > egalitarianism -- or at least even-handedness -- where distributions > are concerned? If FreeBSD becomes known as, effectively, the > property of Walnut Creek CDROM, it will almost certainly dampen > contributors' desire to contribute. They will realize that they are > working not for the good of all but -- to a large extent -- for the > exclusive benefit of Walnut Creek CDROM. This would not be a good > thing, and therefore the impediments to the creation of alternative > distributions should be removed. Brett, I want you to pay close attention to this bit: IT'S NOT A FUCKING CONSPIRACY! We now return you to your regularly scheduled paranoia. -- C. PS To those people who don't find Brett Glass annoying, come back in 12 months and tell us if you still feel that way. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 15: 0:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2759814D05 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:00:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id RAA88696; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA10980; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:43:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:43:34 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] >But, just out of curiosity, why do you disagree with the notion of >egalitarianism -- or at least even-handedness -- where distributions are Even-handedness, I would support -- egalitarianism reduces everything to the lowest common denominator. The best innovations, the best products, the best combat teams are at their best and most efficient when the team is strongly focused on a single mission with a strongly focused leader. These people, typically, are not the most liked, but they are the most capable of achieving excellence. One of the reasons I encourage the use of FreeBSD as opposed to Linux is precisely because of the development model and the demonstrated focus of the FreeBSD project. Although, I could say nearly the same for all of the *BSDs. Nobody seems to like Theo, but he has brought focus and direction to OpenBSD. When he disagreed with the NetBSD core, he rolled his own. I respect that. I believe that all the BSDs are correct in focusing on the server side of the world. In that world, the concerns and objectives are entirely different than the desktop world. Look at what we already have. There is little value to vinum, for example on the desktop. There is tremendous value, though on the server side. To focus on the desktop would mean ignoring the very real benefits FreeBSD offers to just become another "me-too" in the egalitarian rabble of Linux. FreeBSD offers a _very_ attractive alternative to IS folks who have been around enough to see all the shortcomings of Linux. (Besides, the desktop world sucks -- you have to deal with users;) >concerned? If FreeBSD becomes known as, effectively, the property of >Walnut Creek CDROM, it will almost certainly dampen contributors' >desire to contribute. They will realize that they are working not for the Why? If WC became WC$, then we would see more Theos;) Up to now, though, WC has given us _far_ more than it's taken. Don't look for skunks till you smell one;) WC has bellied up to the bar with hard dollars and support, yet they allow all of us do download their supported product at no charge. Their support is one of the reasons FreeBSD is the most popular *BSD available. They obviously, though, have a vested interest in the name "FreeBSD". If WC and core have decided to target the server world, why not cooperate and further that goal? Strengthen the group rather than dividing it. If, on the other hand, you can't float in that boat, I see no reason why you couldn't take any *BSD code you like and develop the "FriendlyBSD" distribution. From a personal point of view, you're trying to sell me on the value of the market acceptance of the Maudie Fricks of the world. Maudie doesn't run IT, and, frankly, I don't give a damn about Maudie because I have no intention of supporting Maudie. There is absolutely nothing that you, or anyone else could say that would change my attitude. Sorry. >good of all but -- to a large extent -- for the exclusive benefit >of Walnut Creek CDROM. This would not be a good thing, and therefore the >impediments to the creation of alternative distributions should be removed. > >In addition, the existence of multiple distributions means more contributions >of money, time, and advocacy by the creators of those distributions. This >can only be a good thing. An alternative distribution under a different name, __may__ be a good thing -- but depends on the quality and direction of the contributors. I still don't understand why you want to turn FreeBSD from it's current, successful direction and turn it into another Linux-like CF. >>I dislike the sophomoric and sometimes >>acid responses he seems to draw from others on this list. > >So do I, and I must admit that I don't fully understand why the people I suspect that some haven't quite matured, yet. >who post them are showing such venom. Nothing I've said, or would like >to do, is adverse to the interests or success of FreeBSD as a development Actually, what you've advocated _is_ adverse to the interests of FreeBSD -- if, in fact, FreeBSD is targeting the server side of the world. >project, and postings which characterize me as an "enemy of the project" >seem more designed to prejudice others against me than to contribute >something constructive to the discussion. In fact, I think that my proposals >stand to do the project great good. The great good that you see comes mostly from the way you see. I, frankly, don't see your vision. What I like most about FreeBSD is that I can walk in, install and configure a working 24/7 system in a relatively short period of time and walk out -- without worrying about calls in the middle of the night. If you are successful in shifting the focus to the desktop, I would most likely start installing one of the other *BSDs. Why not use your skills to help advance our acceptance on the server side of the world instead of trying to convert us? --Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 15: 0:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35B515532 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id RAA88699; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:00:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA10994; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:57:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:57:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Brett Glass Cc: David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@cdrom.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >At 01:57 PM 9/12/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > >> Bluntly, if two things are not equally good, it is not sensible to treat >>them equally. > >Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If so, who is to >judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or she should be >treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he or she is not of >sufficient "quality?" Jeesh, Brett -- stop the socialist propaganda. David is absolutely right. And, yes, I would apply that to human beings as well -- though I didn't see anything up to this point that would have moved the discussion to "human beings". If you couldn't string two intelligent sentances together, I sure as hell wouldn't hire you as a writer. If _I_ am the one making the choice, _I_ will decide who meets "sufficient quality." This diversion, Brett, is an an example of why people aren't listening to you. Why not change your tactics? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 15:21:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DE514E05 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23043; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:41:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:41:52 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Brett Glass Cc: Phil Regnauld , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Message-ID: <19990912224152.A20302@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> <12874.936232439@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990907234944.047c0980@localhost> <19990908114806.04124@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908100529.05259560@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990908100529.05259560@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:24:56AM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 10:24:56AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > O'Reilly has turned down several book proposals on BSD UNIX -- from me and > from other authors -- saying that Linux has so much more market share that it > offers them a greater return. I note that on the recent Slashdot interview with Tim O'Reilly he was asked what he thought one of his biggest mistakes was, and he says something to the effect of "Turning down the opportunity to publish Greg Lehey's _Complete FreeBSD_". It might be worth contacting them again and asking again. If their response is negative I suggest it's also worth asking for permission to republish their reasons why not to this list. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 15:22:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D4314E05 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23105; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:42:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:42:22 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Doug Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990912224222.A20508@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> <37DBDA70.DAB93A49@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37DBDA70.DAB93A49@gorean.org>; from Doug on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:53:04AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug, On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:53:04AM -0700, Doug wrote: > My whole purpose in responding to this one is simply to point out to those > members of the list that may not know better that the FreeBSD project is > not above criticism, and they need not fear expressing their opinions. It > really isn't WHAT you say brett, in fact, it's not even really HOW you say > it. Frankly, it's YOU brett. We don't like you. You've got your priorities backwards. You should be reading the message, and not the messenger. I find that makes dealing with e-mail much less stressful. If you only want to read messages from people you like then you (and anyone else that has this problem) should invest some time learning procmail. Brett's raising interesting points, he's not resorting to flaming and other abuse and is, IMHO, showing a great deal of restraint in the face of considerable provocation. It may very well be that Brett's fears are groundless, that the concerns he has about WC and how they might feel about a 'competing' packaging of FreeBSD are empty, and that this whole issue can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. In the meantime, I'm seeing a large number of people respond to Brett's messages without actually answering the questions he's asking, or qualifying their answers with so many 'perhaps', 'maybe', and 'possibly' that it's no wonder that he's having to repeat his questions, because no one's answering them. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 16:23:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scrabble.freeuk.net (scrabble.freeuk.net [212.126.144.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0FE1516F for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:23:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@cream.org) Received: from [212.126.147.211] (helo=cream.org) by scrabble.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 11QIyB-0007jv-00; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 23:23:39 +0000 Content-Length: 2779 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:23:33 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Boothman To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jay Nelson Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > But, just out of curiosity, why do you disagree with the notion of > egalitarianism -- or at least even-handedness -- where distributions are > concerned? If FreeBSD becomes known as, effectively, the property of > Walnut Creek CDROM, it will almost certainly dampen contributors' > desire to contribute. They will realize that they are working not for the > good of all but -- to a large extent -- for the exclusive benefit > of Walnut Creek CDROM. This would not be a good thing, and therefore the > impediments to the creation of alternative distributions should be removed. I've been following this conversation for some time and, up until now, have managed to resist the urge to comment. However, unlike some of the other posters to this list, I say what I say without the slightest anger towards Brett. Brett. I honestly cannot understand your obvious antangonism towards Walnut Creek (For the sake of comedy, refered to as WC). Here's the picture as I see it : 1) If i choose to buy the WC CD set, WC gets some money (they are a for-profit organisation) and the FreeBSD project gets some money (this benfits us all). 2) If I download via FTP (from ftp.uk.freebsd.org to cut WC out of the picture), WC know nothing of and get nothing from the transaction. 3) If I buy the cheapbytes CD set, WC know nothing of and get nothing from the transaction. 4) If I install vis a laplink cable from my mate's box, WC know nothing of and get nothing from the transaction. I cannot see how FreeBSD could be seen as WC's property. There are so many ways to install FreeBSD that don't envolove WC that this HAS to be true. However, I fundamentally believe that WC's CD set is the best way to get FreeBSD. If you leave your ports tree as installed by a release, the vast majority of the 100s of ports are available to you without having to touch a modem. (A godsend if you live in the UK where telecoms costs are a joke and an embarassment) WC simply present the best way to get FreeBSD. If I got unmetered net access tomorrow, I may never buy another WC product again. I owe them nothing. Equally, if another company offered a similar CD set for less, I would be tempted; but it's unlikely they would be offering a donation to the project the way WC does. So Brett. Lighten up. WC aren't the next X-File. They are a commerical organisation that through tremendous insight and foresight gave FreeBSD financial and logistical backing from near the very beginning, so that they could benifit from it's success. I'm sure they have. But they have been riding on the back of FreeBSD's success, NOT the other way round. --- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org Unmetered Telecoms. Join the Fight! http://www.unmetered.org.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 16:38:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118B51555C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:38:26 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jay Nelson" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 16:38:26 -0700 Message-ID: <000501befd77$e91dea60$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 01:57 PM 9/12/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Bluntly, if two things are not equally good, it is not > sensible to treat > >them equally. > > Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If so, > who is to > judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or she should be > treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he or > she is not of > sufficient "quality?" Yes, I would apply that to anyone and everything. I treat human beings differently based upon how they deserve to be treated. In fact, the virtue of 'fairness' is pretty much defined as 'treating people the way they deserve'. The virtue that you are talking about, on the other hand, is 'mercy'. That of giving people or things that which they do not deserve. This particular virtue is one I seldom practice. > In the more specific case of the FreeBSD project and creators of FreeBSD > distributions: Does it make sense to favor large companies over > small ones? > Or older ones over newcomers? Or established but less daring > distributions > over ones that try to "push the envelope?" If a distribution has > more bugs or > problems than another (perhaps because it attempted to add great > new features), > but is working to improve, should it be penalized in any other > way than by the > marketplace? The FreeBSD team is part of the marketplace. The marketplace doesn't just include consumers. It includes holders of intellectual property wielding that property to achive that particular market outcome that they prefer. It may not make any difference to you whether Coke or Pepsi sells more, and you may be entirely content to "leave it to the market", but to ask Coke to do so is absurd. > IMHO, the answer to all of the questions in the paragraph > immediately above is > a resounding "no." FreeBSD, Inc. should set a level playing field for all > would-be distributors, and then allow the marketplace to reward > or penalize the > products based on user experience. This is what is occurring in > the Linux world, > and it works fantastically. You are not asking for a level playing field. You are pretending to, but you are not. Right now, you have a level playing field. You can ask the FreeBSD team for things it owns as well as anyone else can. What you want, on the other hand, is a blank check. Permission to use another's property however you please, even against their wishes. This is where delve into the absurd. Yes, the Linux world more or less does work this way. It is part of the reason that Linux is so fragmented. Personally, I think this fragmentation is good, but the FreeBSD team (as far as I can tell) does not. They don't want to be like that, and that's their right. I don't think you'll have any success convincing them differently with arguments that basically say, "the way you are acting is inconsisten with my best interests". It's fun to try though. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 17: 1:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60B114CBF for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 17:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11297 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 04:58:25 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 04:58:25 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought you all might like to hear this. Some of you have pissed an moaned for the last year about how FreeBSD needs a Red Hat like company to keep us relevant. For those of you who have voiced this concern this news is a boon. FreeBSD now has a commercial backer. Like Red Hat this company recently went public and is a strong supporter of open source. They even run the world busiest FTP server. The name of the company is Walnut Creek CDROM! I am sure all of those people who formerly castigated FreeBSD for not doing enough to attract a commercial backer will be appeased. Hopefully you guys understand the inferences I am making and you see the irony in certain arguments of past and present. Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. Brett, being an effective writer, demands the attention of others to bring perspective to the discussion. People like Jordan end up spending time answering Brett's criticisms regardless of their merit. Procmail filters are not the answer. Sure, they protect one from Brett's lambaste. They don't save FreeBSD from him. Can you imagine if everything Brett wrote made its way to slashdot? The consequences would be terrible. It is bad enough that our competition is antagonistic. I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18: 2:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3BF14D3D; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08190; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37DC4D13.5DA3F399@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:02:11 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0912 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? References: <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990908090734.04837d40@localhost> <199909090252.WAA01836@bellsouth.net> <4.2.0.58.19990911232324.04ae2530@localhost> <37DBDA70.DAB93A49@gorean.org> <19990912224222.A20508@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > > Doug, > > On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 09:53:04AM -0700, Doug wrote: > > My whole purpose in responding to this one is simply to point out to those > > members of the list that may not know better that the FreeBSD project is > > not above criticism, and they need not fear expressing their opinions. It > > really isn't WHAT you say brett, in fact, it's not even really HOW you say > > it. Frankly, it's YOU brett. We don't like you. > If you only want to read messages from people you like then you (and anyone > else that has this problem) should invest some time learning procmail. Well reasoned debate with people who have viewpoints different from my own is the main reason I spend any time on the internet at all. > Brett's raising interesting points I don't disagree with that, the problem is the one or two good points Brett raises are lost in amongst the brambles and thorns of his tortured pseudo-logic, rambling and paranoia. > he's not resorting to flaming and other > abuse and is, IMHO, showing a great deal of restraint in the face of > considerable provocation. Brett adds his own fuel to the fire. He carefully frames his arguments in terms that guarantee him an incendiary response, and thus the chance to play the martyr. He either really is smart (and therefore capable of clear, honest discourse) or he really is a dolt who happens on a good point now and then. Either way, he's not worth my time. > It may very well be that Brett's fears are groundless, that the concerns > he has about WC and how they might feel about a 'competing' packaging of > FreeBSD are empty, and that this whole issue can be resolved to everyone's > satisfaction. > > In the meantime, I'm seeing a large number of people respond to Brett's > messages without actually answering the questions he's asking, or > qualifying their answers with so many 'perhaps', 'maybe', and 'possibly' > that it's no wonder that he's having to repeat his questions, because > no one's answering them. Mostly becasue (as Brett well knows) no one on the list really can. How on earth would any of us know how WC will respond to another distribution, and how can speculating on it be anything other than an exercise in futility? The only people who might have any idea are Jordan and maybe DG, and it's not like Brett doesn't know their email addresses. Now, the only thing more pathetic than arguing _like_ brett is arguing _about_ brett, so I'll stop this here. You're free to draw any conclusions you like about my post, my priorities or my motivations. I've said what I have to say, so now I'm done. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:16: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13ECB14D84 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:15:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16940; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:15:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912185632.04af8df0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:15:28 -0600 To: Brett Taylor , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: When they came for Brett Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:47 PM 9/12/99 -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: > > Everyone knows that he will respond to every single message to him, so > > if they really did not want to see his messages, they would ignore > > him, or even filter him out. > >This is not always true. If you form your questions/comments so that they >are very very specific he will ignore them. He recently said he'd been >doing a lot of advocacy and Jordan, among others, noted that we haven't >seen any of these articles. I would personally like to see them so I can >read them (because I do enjoy his articles usually) and so I can put >pointers to them in Daemon News. I then asked him to please send me where >these were published, even if it was solely in print. I've never heard >back from him. That's because I already answered the same question for someone else, not more than a week ago, on this list. Funny: I've noted that when I repeat myself for the benefit of people who have ignored my earlier postings, those who wish to discredit me -- or discourage others from reading my messages -- claim that I do nothing but say the same things over and over. But if I don't respond to the redundant queries, I'm told that I must not have a good answer. Aha! Catch-22! This is what's known as being "trolled." The object is either to discredit the target, wear him or her out, or waste his or her time. Your earlier message seemed well-meaning and friendly, but after this one I must ask: is this your intent as well? I hope not. >The reason people get annoyed with Brett is that he always says he's doing >something or willing to do something but then never, as far as we >(speaking for the people on the list - kinda bold) can tell follows >through with any actual work. In several cases, I have not followed through because I was told that my proposed contribution would not be appreciated. This has happened, at times, when I've volunteered code, debugging time (in particular, fixing the fxp driver so that it works with Netfinity servers), and advocacy. In most cases, however, I *do* follow through. In fact, my drive to see if I can successfully do a FreeBSD distribution is following through in a big, BIG way, since as I'd be putting quite a large amount of my own money -- and more than full time every day -- on the line to push and enhance FreeBSD. The income stream it generated wouldn't make anyone rich, but it would fund participation in conferences in trade shows for the purpose of advocacy, and would do development that would flow back to the FreeBSD code base. Even the basic due diligence required to mount such an effort is a very big and time-consuming effort. > He's like a foreman who sits on his butt >all day telling people what to do while a house is being built but >couldn't personally hammer a nail if he was asked to. You obviously are not familiar with my background. I've hammered quite a lot of nails. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:35: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498CD14DE8; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-135.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.135]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA22468; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:34:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37DC54A6.8534696@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:34:30 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list , phk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best References: <199909120128.VAA09328@arutam.inch.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > > There is an article at Linux Weekly News http://www.lwn.net/ how BIND > 8.2 will have some code which although still free to distribute it will > not meet %100 the definition of Open Source. > > Highlights of the license are: > -Free to use > -Free to change as long as the they have the right to use the changes > -Some parts of the code can only be used for DNS handling functions > -If said parts of the code are changed they can not modify the API > > The "parts" I am refering to are the DNSsafe part of Bind. > > There are a number of people who seem to be outraged at this > restrictions and are crying out for changing the parts of BIND that use > DNSafe. So we are basically saying ... it works, it is free, we can > change it, but.... let's go and re-do it anyway.. and with any luck we > will leave some bugs or use not as safe methods. > > I am so happy I use FreeBSD with it's BSD license style. Personally, I'm leaning toward PHK's Beerware license. But I'd have to change it and make it a Soda (etc .) -ware license. (I can't legally drink, nor do I care to.) "And quite frankly, I think I have gotten much more out of my beerware license than most people have from their GNU or BSD licenses." - Poul-Henning Kamp That would be the defining point for me. If your going to give it away, give it away (now! :-) Else, what's the point? Crippleware has _never_ been popular. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:35:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB6114DF9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17134; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:35:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:35:43 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:58 AM 9/13/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >I thought you all might like to hear this. Some of you have pissed an >moaned for the last year about how FreeBSD needs a Red Hat like company to >keep us relevant. For those of you who have voiced this concern this news >is a boon. > >FreeBSD now has a commercial backer. Like Red Hat this company recently >went public and is a strong supporter of open source. They even run the >world busiest FTP server. > >The name of the company is Walnut Creek CDROM! I am sure all of those >people who formerly castigated FreeBSD for not doing enough to attract a >commercial backer will be appeased. Walnut Creek is more than just a "commercial backer" of FreeBSD. It is the owner of the trademark "FreeBSD," which means that -- in theory -- it can prevent anyone else from publishing a distribution of FreeBSD that can say that it's FreeBSD on the label." It employs several of the key developers, thereby possessing considerable leverage over them and the project. It hosts the project's Web site and the "FreeBSD Mall" Web site (the only source of FreeBSD-related products mentioned on the project's Web site.) It is the only distributor of FreeBSD CD-ROMs mentioned on the FreeBSD Web site or in its literature, even though there are others. It's as if Red Hat owned the name "Linux," employed Linus Torvalds and controlled his salary, benefits and bonuses, and could preclude anyone else from doing a OS distribution with "Linux" in the name. In short, Walnut Creek has the ability to monopolize sales of CD-ROMs bearing the name "FreeBSD." There's only one company that's unaffiliated with Walnut Creek that currently ships FreeBSD as a separate product: Cheap Bytes. And WC could shut them down at any time by asserting its ownership of the trademark. They could even sue Cheap Bytes for mistakenly printing, on every CD-ROM, that FreeBSD is a trademark of FreeBSD, Inc. when it is not. >Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. The fact that they provoke such a strong response from you suggests that they may be good points indeed. >Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. Not so. I've pointed out, however, that FreeBSD is losing market share and is being crowded out of its niche by Linux. >Brett, being an effective writer, Thank you! >demands the attention of others to bring perspective >to the discussion. People like Jordan end up spending time answering >Brett's criticisms regardless of their merit. Actually, I've tried to communicate with Jordan offline. He responded to my last private e-mail by quoting half of it in a PUBLIC response posted to this list, and did not respond to the rest. >Procmail filters are not the answer. Sure, they protect one from Brett's >lambaste. They don't save FreeBSD from him. FreeBSD is in no danger from me. It MIGHT, however, be endangered by inaction, an overly complacent attitude, or the factors mentioned above which preclude alternative distributions. >I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing FreeBSD harm. You're blaming the messenger. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:38: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7125714DF9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17158; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912193601.04ad0da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:37:40 -0600 To: Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:57 PM 9/12/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > >Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If so, who is to > >judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or she should be > >treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he or she is not of > >sufficient "quality?" > >Jeesh, Brett -- stop the socialist propaganda. It's not "socialist propaganda." It's a form of argument known as "reductio ad absurdum," which shows that an idea is absurd by taking it to its logical conclusion. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:39:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6447E152CA; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:39:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id VAA28950; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199909130139.VAA28950@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:40:31 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Market share and platform support Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:41:52 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: >> O'Reilly has turned down several book proposals on BSD UNIX -- >I note that on the recent Slashdot interview with Tim O'Reilly >..he thought one of his biggest mistakes was... >"Turning down the opportunity to publish Greg Lehey's Complete FreeBSD_". >It might be worth contacting them again and asking again. if they come with a negative response we should get their permission not only to post the reply here, but to Slashdot too. It would be the only true way to get more than a "just go away" answer. His replies did seem genuine though.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:42:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D033514DF9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-135.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.135]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA10973; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:42:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37DC5680.95E5EC61@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:42:24 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Crawford Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > | > > In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. > | > > | > Umm, yes, but what does it *mean*? > | > | FreeBSD users, apparently (according to Jason's -questions post), much like > | "FreeBSD'ers" or "Linuxite" (for Linux, obviously). > > Excuse me, but the correct term is "Linux weenies". I prefer "Linux Luser". :-) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:48:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DAB14DF9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:48:14 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jay Nelson" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:48:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000201befd8a$0b0dcac0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912193601.04ad0da0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > At 04:57 PM 9/12/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > >Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If > so, who is to > > >judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or > she should be > > >treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he > or she is not of > > >sufficient "quality?" > > > >Jeesh, Brett -- stop the socialist propaganda. > > It's not "socialist propaganda." It's a form of argument known as > "reductio > ad absurdum," which shows that an idea is absurd by taking it to > its logical > conclusion. Actually, this is a pretty unique form of reductio ad absurdum. Normally, reductio ad absurdum is used to refute 'general principles' by demonstrating that there are extreme cases to which they don't apply. However, what Brett did is the equivalent of "Because David's argument isn't true about people, it must not be true about FreeBSD." That would be an absurd argument even if its premises were true. I would further point out that equating "treating people differently" with "depriv[ing] them of rights" is typical of socialist propoganda. That is probably part of what prompted the response you got. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:51:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36BC314D9C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01086; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:20:55 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990913112055:7396=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:20:55 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Bac Cc: FreeBSD-chat Cc: FreeBSD-chat , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990913112055:7396=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 13-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > thereby possessing considerable leverage over them and the project. It hosts > the project's Web site and the "FreeBSD Mall" Web site (the only source of > FreeBSD-related products mentioned on the project's Web site.) It is the > distributor of FreeBSD CD-ROMs mentioned on the FreeBSD Web site or in > its literature, even though there are others. So switch to NetBSD then. Stop trying to protect people who are NOT naive about these things and NOT too stupid too care. You are just making people hate you more and more by showing how little you actually respect their intellect. > shut them down at any time by asserting its ownership of the trademark. > They could even sue Cheap Bytes for mistakenly printing, on every CD-ROM, > FreeBSD is a trademark of FreeBSD, Inc. when it is not. Well given they suck pretty hard (from what I hear) I wouldn't really mind. > >Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. > The fact that they provoke such a strong response from you suggests that > they may be good points indeed. Probably not, they're just plain emotional manipulation to get people's hackles up. > >Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. > Not so. I've pointed out, however, that FreeBSD is losing market share and > is being crowded out of its niche by Linux. What a positive statement! I'm so reasured by your continuing support for FreeBSD. > >I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing FreeBSD > You're blaming the messenger. *THATs* a cop out. 'You can't critisize me - I'm just the messenger' I'll say what a lot of other people have said, you state the problem without suggesting any decent solutions. Not exactly constructive critisism. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990913112055:7396=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN9xYf1bYW/HEoF9pAQF9owP7BLwWCHI3Y6KdRvfVaEgzqDQjJ5LdFMKv SQdtjjpV8zZc10kaLs9uwa/mZeswNsf/p13LDpTniEnt8HMkeuzqqKbioVCyY9G6 rjBca/ld3ENneN1I7fCnBiNjvVlGJhQcwhD7oK0DxwJFQooDPhn8dFte9PU0keqC wL7YcDYqFo0= =uToN -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990913112055:7396=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:54:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B24014E6C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17322; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:54:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912193942.04adfac0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:48:28 -0600 To: Cliff Crawford From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990912134942.04a5d7a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:22 PM 9/12/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: >Depends..what if each distributor starts putting in their own "enhancements" >and different utilities and whatnot, a la Linux, to the point where the >different distributions aren't compatible anymore? That would be BAD. :) >That's what I really like about FreeBSD, there's one standard distro with the >same setup and utilities installed everywhere. It's true that incompatibilities are bad news, so perhaps the distributors should agree (I don't think a formal or legal constraint is necessary) that they'll all include certain key things and/or test with certain products. The marketplace can likewise help to enforce compatibility by reporting problems and demanding that they be fixed. Word spreads fast. >I do think it's important to disentangle FreeBSD from Walnut Creek, though. So do I. Yes, it is true: any new distributor will not yet have had a chance to contribute as much as Walnut Creek has. But to use this to justify putting a newcomer them at a disadvantage is to create a big barrier to entry that may lock everyone else out for good. Not a good thing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 18:54:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF5914E6C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 18:54:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17325; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:54:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912194922.04ab7810@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:54:16 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jay Nelson" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: In-Reply-To: <000201befd8a$0b0dcac0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912193601.04ad0da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 9/12/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: Actually, this is a pretty unique form of reductio ad absurdum. Normally, >reductio ad absurdum is used to refute 'general principles' by demonstrating >that there are extreme cases to which they don't apply. > > However, what Brett did is the equivalent of "Because David's argument >isn't true about people, it must not be true about FreeBSD." Not so. Your argument WAS about people: in particular, about unequal treatment of people who do distributions of FreeBSD. > I would further point out that equating "treating people differently" with >"depriv[ing] them of rights" is typical of socialist propoganda. Actually, I was thinking of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, two pillars of good ol' capitalist democracy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 19: 3:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF6014E6C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17403; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912195547.04ac89c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:18 -0600 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Bac Cc: FreeBSD-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:20 AM 9/13/99 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. > > The fact that they provoke such a strong response from you suggests that > > they may be good points indeed. > >Probably not, they're just plain emotional manipulation to get people's hackles >up. Actually, I'm stating them with as little emotion as possible. They're just FACTS, that's all. The issue is, what to do about them? > > >Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. > > Not so. I've pointed out, however, that FreeBSD is losing market share and > > is being crowded out of its niche by Linux. > >What a positive statement! I'm so reasured by your continuing support for >FreeBSD. If I did not support FreeBSD, I wouldn't express concern about this. I'd say, "Oh, goody! Linux is winning!" The fact that I note that something ungood is going on, rather than just wearing a painted-on happy face, does not mean I am unsupportive of FreeBSD. Quite the contrary. As I've said many times, I want to do something about it and have noted ways in which I believe the trends can be reversed. > > >I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing FreeBSD > > You're blaming the messenger. > >*THATs* a cop out. 'You can't critisize me - I'm just the messenger' >I'll say what a lot of other people have said, you state the problem without >suggesting any decent solutions. Have you been off in hyperspace somewhere? REALLY. I've been proposing many solutions -- including some very bold ones that'd take a big chunk of my own time, money, and energy. Execution, however, depends on avoidance of sabotage by either Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc., either of which could kill the project and perpetuate FreeBSD's slide. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 19:27:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.gfit.net (ns.gfit.net [209.41.124.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE42614D80 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:27:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Received: from paranor (timembt.iinc.com [206.67.169.229]) by mercury.gfit.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17321 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:30:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990912222728.00a03440@mail.embt.com> X-Sender: tembt@mail.embt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:27:28 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Tom Embt Subject: another list just for you Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Create another mailing list: freebsd-debate_politics_and_conspiracy_theories_with_brett_glass@freebsd.org let's see how many people (don't) sign up for that On the serious side.. Brett: calm the hell down. Tom Embt tom@embt.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 19:29:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 7DF0E14EF8; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:29:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: adam@whizkidtech.net Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> (adam@whizkidtech.net) Subject: Re: When they came for Brett Message-Id: <19990913022957.7DF0E14EF8@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a > dangerous precedent. Otherwise, the day might come I'd be saying: "When > they came for Brett, I did not protest because he was a troll..... When > they came for me, there was no one left to protest." in my tenure as postmaster (the last 5 or 6 years), i have banned less than 6 people from the lists. i dont believe that you have to worry. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 19:30:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69CC614EF8 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from ppp5835.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1224.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.225.72]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27985; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by ppp5835.on.bellglobal.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA20096; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:11:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:11:01 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Message-ID: <19990912221101.A20062@ppp5835.on.bellglobal.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990912193601.04ad0da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912193601.04ad0da0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 07:37:40PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 07:37:40PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > It's not "socialist propaganda." It's a form of argument known as "reductio > ad absurdum," which shows that an idea is absurd by taking it to its logical > conclusion. All theories in accord with common sense are absurd when taken to their logical conclusion. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 19:48:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624C314D31 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:48:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12183; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:18:31 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA21020; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:18:29 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:18:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jay Nelson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990913121828.J10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990912154950.D10106@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jay Nelson on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 02:28:19PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 14:28:19 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > > Would I be out of line suggesting that those who don't like what Brett > writes simply not read or respond? To expel someone from this list > simply because they are disliked doesn't speak well for those on this > list or the FreeBSD community. I don't think anybody's talking about expulsion. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20: 0:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1D815534 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:00:40 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel O'Connor" , "Brett Glass" Cc: "FreeBSD-chat" Subject: RE: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Bac Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:00:40 -0700 Message-ID: <000401befd94$2981eb80$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > *THATs* a cop out. 'You can't critisize me - I'm just the messenger' > I'll say what a lot of other people have said, you state the > problem without > suggesting any decent solutions. Not exactly constructive critisism. I would say that it's important to agree on the problems before even attempting to agree on the solutions. So I don't think that this particular criticism is valid. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40BCF154E9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11709 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:00:36 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:00:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >Walnut Creek is more than just a "commercial backer" of FreeBSD. It is the >owner of the trademark "FreeBSD," which means that -- in theory -- it can >prevent anyone else from publishing a distribution of FreeBSD that can >say that it's FreeBSD on the label." One thing you fail to mention is that FreeBSD, Inc is property of Jordan K Hubbard. If WC does this crazy thing you propose, I will put out JasonBSD tomorrow based on 3.x-stable and ask Jordan to run the project for me. :p >Cheap Bytes. And WC could shut them down at any time by asserting its >ownership of the trademark. Hell, they could sue Jordan for naming his business FreeBSD, Inc. In fact, one might say that they have already lost trademark because they have not defended their TM against the avaricous jkh. And what is Jordan, chopped liver? Without his support WC won't have squat. >>Brett, being an effective writer, > >Thank you! Your welcome! >I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing FreeBSD harm. >You're blaming the messenger. What problems and what nag? Look, jkh knows all of the things you say. FreeBSD and WC are his gravy train. We can trust him because he is trustworthy, but we can also trust him because he has a vested interest in the success of FreeBSD. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20: 7:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04DE154E9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11718; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:03:52 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:03:52 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <19990913121828.J10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: >I don't think anybody's talking about expulsion. Nope. Expulsion would be effective perhaps, but I wouldn't pull the switch. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20:10:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C82154E9 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA12287; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:40:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA21161; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:40:11 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:40:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Message-ID: <19990913124011.N10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990913121828.J10106@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 08:03:52AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 13 September 1999 at 8:03:52 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I don't think anybody's talking about expulsion. > > Nope. Expulsion would be effective perhaps, but I wouldn't pull the > switch. People have posted good reasons not to expel him. He's not doing anything reprehensible or illegal, he's just getting on the nerves of the majority of the people on the list, as this thread has shown. That's all I wanted to do, and I think it makes my point. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20:40:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C7B14D59 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-197.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.197]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA26522; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:40:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA77139; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:40:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199909130340.WAA77139@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSd Chat list From: David Kelly Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best In-reply-to: Message from "Jason C. Wells" of "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:17:31 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:40:20 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > >* Francisco Reyes (freyes@inch.com) [990912 04:44]: > >>There is an article at Linux Weekly News http://www.lwn.net/ how BIND > >>8.2 will have some code which although still free to distribute it will > >>not meet %100 the definition of Open Source. > > I read this brief on slashdot. What /. says is "does not meet the Free > Software Definition of Debian." What I gathered from the Debian position was "BIND does not meet the anti-intellectual-property-ownership agenda as defined by Richard Stallman." IMHO there is a big difference between my definition of "Open Source" and the political agenda behind FSF and GPL. To be open source the product does not have to be freely redistributable, it simply means you are given a copy of the source code. One of the earliest examples of Open Source that I'm familiar with is the monitor PROM in my Apple //e. I paid all of $10 for the Genuine Apple book containing the assembly listing. It was quite helpful. In the 80 column text scroll routine it was quite obvious the author disabled interupts exactly the opposite of the way documentation said, and his comments said. By the time I looked, had figured that out for myself. When the term "Open Source" popped up in the popular media a year or so ago, it meant something close to what I think of as Open Source. Today it has been bullied into something almost the mirror image of FSF. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20:49:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E7014D8E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18153; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:49:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912213809.04abd8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:49:04 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jay Nelson" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-Reply-To: <000501befd77$e91dea60$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:38 PM 9/12/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Would you apply that statement to human beings in general? If so, > > who is to > > judge the "quality" of the human being? Or to say that he or she should be > > treated differently -- i.e. deprived of rights -- because he or > > she is not of > > sufficient "quality?" > > Yes, I would apply that to anyone and everything. I treat human beings >differently based upon how they deserve to be treated. In fact, the virtue >of 'fairness' is pretty much defined as 'treating people the way they >deserve'. No; fairness is treating them equally regardless of what you may think they deserve. >The virtue that you are talking about, on the other hand, is 'mercy'. That >of giving people or things that which they do not deserve. This particular >virtue is one I seldom practice. I can tell, since you're mercilessly twisting what I've said. ;-) > > In the more specific case of the FreeBSD project and creators of FreeBSD > > distributions: Does it make sense to favor large companies over > > small ones? > > Or older ones over newcomers? Or established but less daring > > distributions > > over ones that try to "push the envelope?" If a distribution has > > more bugs or > > problems than another (perhaps because it attempted to add great > > new features), > > but is working to improve, should it be penalized in any other > > way than by the > > marketplace? > The FreeBSD team is part of the marketplace. The marketplace doesn't just >include consumers. Different marketplace. Again, you're applying some very twisted logic here. >It includes holders of intellectual property wielding >that property to achive that particular market outcome that they prefer. FreeBSD, Inc. does not own most of the intellectual property in FreeBSD; it's owned by the authors, and in most cases bears their personal copyright notices. The many contributors to FreeBSD did not do so in order that FreeBSD, Inc. would serve as an auctioneer for their work, "selling" it to the bidder that gave Jordan Hubbard's FreeBSD, Inc. the most money. They intended to release it for anyone's use -- in the spirit of the BSD license. For FreeBSD, Inc. to pick winners and losers is to violate their intent. > > IMHO, the answer to all of the questions in the paragraph > > immediately above is > > a resounding "no." FreeBSD, Inc. should set a level playing field for all > > would-be distributors, and then allow the marketplace to reward > > or penalize the > > products based on user experience. This is what is occurring in > > the Linux world, > > and it works fantastically. > > You are not asking for a level playing field. You are pretending to, but >you are not. Not so. Right now, the playing field is clearly slanted toward Walnut Creek CDROM. > Right now, you have a level playing field. You can ask the >FreeBSD team for things it owns as well as anyone else can. The "FreeBSD team" is different from, and much bigger than, FreeBSD, Inc. And the latter does not own most of the intellectual property in FreeBSD. It is allowed to use it by virtue of the BSD license. >What you want, >on the other hand, is a blank check. Permission to use another's property >however you please, even against their wishes. Again, not so. The express purpose of the FreeBSD project -- see the FAQ -- is to create code that anyone can use for any purpose. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 20:49:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69C014D8E for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 20:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18150; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:49:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990912213243.04ade440@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:34:44 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990913124011.N10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990913121828.J10106@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 PM 9/13/99 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >People have posted good reasons not to expel him. He's not doing >anything reprehensible or illegal, he's just getting on the nerves of >the majority of the people on the list, as this thread has shown. No, it hasn't. Only a few vociferous people have accepted your invitation to condemn me publicly, out of the hundreds who are "tuned in." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 21:28:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F005514D9C for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA12537; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:58:43 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA21610; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:58:39 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:58:39 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Message-ID: <19990913135838.R10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 08:00:36AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 13 September 1999 at 8:00:36 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Walnut Creek is more than just a "commercial backer" of FreeBSD. It is the >> owner of the trademark "FreeBSD," which means that -- in theory -- it can >> prevent anyone else from publishing a distribution of FreeBSD that can >> say that it's FreeBSD on the label." > > One thing you fail to mention is that FreeBSD, Inc is property of Jordan K > Hubbard. There's a good reason for that: it isn't. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 12 22:50:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6998015210 for ; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12967; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:50:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912213243.04ade440@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The only thing I'm going to say on this one Brett. Its because most of us stopped listening to you long ago, and therefore, when Greg asked us to answer that, we knew it was about you and therefore didn;t think that anything involving you merited an answer. Personally, I think you can rant and rave until the cows come home, you don't seem to have changed any minds here. BTW, you can tell your "investors" that they may find Theo DeRaadt (the owner of the "OpenBSD" "name") alot less cooperatve, and if he is copperative at first, he has a reputation of biting the mouth that feeds him. History shows this. If they are unhappy about the FreeBSD and OpenBSD situations, NetBSD *may* be a good choice. while I feel I have an interest in FreeBSD, I will not knock that project...they have some very good minds and developers and could use a little exposure. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:40 PM 9/13/99 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >People have posted good reasons not to expel him. He's not doing > >anything reprehensible or illegal, he's just getting on the nerves of > >the majority of the people on the list, as this thread has shown. > > No, it hasn't. Only a few vociferous people have accepted your invitation > to condemn me publicly, out of the hundreds who are "tuned in." > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 0: 9:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C778014F03 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-78-41-37.ath.bellsouth.net [216.78.41.37]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA22017 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from wghicks@localhost) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) id DAA01807 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:14:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:14:04 -0400 (EDT) From: W Gerald Hicks Message-Id: <199909130714.DAA01807@bellsouth.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: wghicks@bellsouth.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org unsubscribe (blah!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 1:27:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF86D14A06 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA13309; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:57:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA22651; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:57:27 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:57:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <19990913175727.A10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 07:35:43PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 19:35:43 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:58 AM 9/13/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> I thought you all might like to hear this. Some of you have pissed an >> moaned for the last year about how FreeBSD needs a Red Hat like company to >> keep us relevant. For those of you who have voiced this concern this news >> is a boon. >> >> FreeBSD now has a commercial backer. Like Red Hat this company recently >> went public and is a strong supporter of open source. They even run the >> world busiest FTP server. >> >> The name of the company is Walnut Creek CDROM! I am sure all of those >> people who formerly castigated FreeBSD for not doing enough to attract a >> commercial backer will be appeased. > > Walnut Creek is more than just a "commercial backer" of FreeBSD. It > is the owner of the trademark "FreeBSD," which means that -- in > theory -- it can prevent anyone else from publishing a distribution > of FreeBSD that can say that it's FreeBSD on the label." It employs > several of the key developers, thereby possessing considerable > leverage over them and the project. It hosts the project's Web site > and the "FreeBSD Mall" Web site (the only source of FreeBSD-related > products mentioned on the project's Web site.) It is the only > distributor of FreeBSD CD-ROMs mentioned on the FreeBSD Web site or > in its literature, even though there are others. > > It's as if Red Hat owned the name "Linux," employed Linus Torvalds > and controlled his salary, benefits and bonuses, and could preclude > anyone else from doing a OS distribution with "Linux" in the name. OK, for once in a while I'll answer one of your messages rather than tell you to shut up. The reason for that is that, for once in a while, you've made a valid point. I hadn't noticed that, hidden as it was in rhetoric, when I sent my "to be or not to be" message yesterday. > In short, Walnut Creek has the ability to monopolize sales of > CD-ROMs bearing the name "FreeBSD." There's only one company that's > unaffiliated with Walnut Creek that currently ships FreeBSD as a > separate product: Cheap Bytes. And WC could shut them down at any > time by asserting its ownership of the trademark. They could even > sue Cheap Bytes for mistakenly printing, on every CD-ROM, that > FreeBSD is a trademark of FreeBSD, Inc. when it is not. Yes. You're right. This was done in Jack Velte's days, and it parallels BSDI's registration of the name BSD and the FSF patenting some large prime number. None of these organizations did it for their own benefit, but to avoid somebody else patenting it. You'll know that both Linux and Samba have had problems in this area, so the danger was real. The problem is, can we trust Walnut Creek? Unlike the FSF and Linux International, they're a for-profit company, and it's valid to doubt their motives. I certainly did. But I know Bob Bruce, and I'm sure enough of his good will that we don't even have a written contract for my book: it's all described in a series of mail messages. But you and I are of wildly different temperaments, and you're more than justified in your view. So what do you suggest we do about it? Come up with a sensible, level-headed idea about who should own the name, and Walnut Creek might even go along with you. How about Linux International? Maddog Hall, despite his name, is a sensible person and has even contributed money to BSD to ensure that it doesn't go under. >> Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. > > The fact that they provoke such a strong response from you suggests > that they may be good points indeed. You're missing the point. >> Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. > > Not so. I've pointed out, however, that FreeBSD is losing market share and > is being crowded out of its niche by Linux. Well, you've claimed it. >> I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing > FreeBSD harm. You're blaming the messenger. If you're the messenger, who made these claims? I thought you were the originator. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 1:30:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB43114FC9 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 01:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA13338; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:00:22 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA22676; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:00:21 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:00:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Bac Message-ID: <19990913180021.B10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990912192050.04abebc0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19990912195547.04ac89c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912195547.04ac89c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 08:03:18PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 20:03:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:20 AM 9/13/99 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >>> Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. >>> The fact that they provoke such a strong response from you suggests that >>> they may be good points indeed. >> >> Probably not, they're just plain emotional manipulation to get people's hackles >> up. > > Actually, I'm stating them with as little emotion as possible. They're just > FACTS, that's all. The issue is, what to do about them? Brett Glass is an invader from outer space. That's a FACT. Of course, I don't have any proof. >>>> Nearly all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. >>> Not so. I've pointed out, however, that FreeBSD is losing market share and >>> is being crowded out of its niche by Linux. >> >> What a positive statement! I'm so reasured by your continuing support for >> FreeBSD. > > If I did not support FreeBSD, I wouldn't express concern about this. I'd say, > "Oh, goody! Linux is winning!" I support FreeBSD. And I say (in somewhat different terminology) "Oh, goody! Linux is winning!". They're not winning against us, they're not even really winning against Microsoft, they're winning against the whole closed source mind set. And they're doing a lot of our evangelism for us. >>>> I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. >>> I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing FreeBSD >>> You're blaming the messenger. >> >> *THATs* a cop out. 'You can't critisize me - I'm just the messenger' >> I'll say what a lot of other people have said, you state the problem without >> suggesting any decent solutions. > > Have you been off in hyperspace somewhere? REALLY. I've been proposing many > solutions -- including some very bold ones that'd take a big chunk of my own > time, money, and energy. Execution, however, depends on avoidance of sabotage > by either Walnut Creek or FreeBSD, Inc., either of which could kill the > project and perpetuate FreeBSD's slide. Like me, he's probably been ignoring you due to your low signal to noise ratio. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 2: 7:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B3A14F8A for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12321; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 19:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:26:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) In-Reply-To: <19990913175727.A10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 19:35:43 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:58 AM 9/13/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > >> I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > > > > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing > > FreeBSD harm. You're blaming the messenger. > > If you're the messenger, who made these claims? I thought you were > the originator. There's this annoying guy who posts to slashdot about it (demise of FreeBSD), funny name though, "Anonymous Coward" :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 2:23:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794C014A07 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22078; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:23:08 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:23:08 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that (sorry if i'm telling you how to suck eggs) Anonymous Coward is for anyone who posts and doesn't register first. Andrew Perry On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:26:43 +0000 (GMT) > From: Alfred Perlstein > To: Greg Lehey > Cc: Brett Glass , > "Jason C. Wells" , > FreeBSD-chat > Subject: Re: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) > > > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 19:35:43 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 04:58 AM 9/13/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > > >> I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > > > > > > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing > > > FreeBSD harm. You're blaming the messenger. > > > > If you're the messenger, who made these claims? I thought you were > > the originator. > > There's this annoying guy who posts to slashdot about it (demise > of FreeBSD), funny name though, "Anonymous Coward" :) > > -Alfred > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 2:33:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25B315043 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Greg.Quinlan@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (qmh-00553.qmpgmc.ac.uk [10.1.20.82]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA46763; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:28:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: "Pat Lynch" , "Adrian Wontroba" Cc: , "Greg Quinlan" References: Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:34:00 +0100 Organization: Queen Marys Hospital (SWLCT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well my apologies to the people of SCO. I must point out that I had been involved with SCO from about '86 when it was just Xenix 2.x, and sold the product to my customers for years, singing the praises of Unix/Xenix. But unfortunately it all went a bit pear shaped with later releases ... and I lost a lot of respect for SCO in general. My major gripes were that the OS was not stable anymore, there were major problems fundamentally with it. In one instance I was almost sued by a company because SCO's PPP did not work. (some time later SCO dumped-it for another PPP product.) This would not have been so bad but the distributor maintained there was nothing wrong.....until it was proven... I could go on and on .... Problems with TCP, Problems with patches not installing, symbolic links lost everywhere.... If something went wrong ...well, you needed to reinstall..... I had one customer that I could not install the OS because the boot floppy (N1) would not recognise an IDE CD-ROM and a SCSI hard disk combination... I even got told that it was supported. Then-the saga of moving from unlimited user version to limited (16.32, ...512) trying to explain to customers that it was just so they could identify and look after their customers better. Ohh... yes then there was the saga with registration, with the very first version of OSR5.... I called all the numbers for the on-line registration, all around the world (when I was in Australia) none of them were connected....except one, so I had to wait all night at a client (that was a 3hr drive from my Office,) until 5.00am to ring SCO direct in the US to get a registration code ..... In the early days of SCO, I seemed to be first to encounter problems.... I stuck by them and played the game.... then gave up.... if I had access to some source ...well I was dreaming..... and now I use FreeBSD where-ever possible, but support HP-UX, Digital Unix, SUN-OS, and SCO, but not Linux that was just as bad, (although friends say I should give it another chance) So the moral to the story is: I carefully looked at other OS's and selected FreeBSD. ;) Anyway, you probably know why I'm so surprised that they give the Open Source arena such great support. As for skunkware they do not support it or have enhanced-it!? As for staying in business ... well they lost mine... Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat Lynch To: Adrian Wontroba Cc: Greg Quinlan ; Sent: Saturday, September 11, 1999 5:30 PM Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda > THis is extremely true, having known some of the people over at SCO. > People like Kean Johnston and ROn Record (Kean was at outr FreeBSD dinner > at USENIX) are believers in Open Source (ROn puts together the skunkware > CD) and believe it or not, they are p0artial to FreeBSD for the Open > Source OS choice (well at least Kean is ;)) > > I nticed thier committment to Open Source back at the '98 USENIX > conference in New Orleans, and even more recently at the '99 conference in > Monterey. I'm pretty impressed personally, and Ron's a pretty knowledgable > guy. THey also employ alot of people in that department to put together > the skunkware cd's as well as the other free software that they distribute > now with the OS (gnome,kde,etc.) > > Kudos to SCO for maintaining the commercial UNIX of thier own, while > really battling for Open Source. They do have to stay in business though, > so good luck getting SYS V source ;) > > -Pat > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > > (moving from stable to chat) > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 11:37:50AM +0100, Greg Quinlan wrote: > > > http://www.sco.com/profservices/linux/ > > > > > > I see that SCO is coming to the rescue of OpenSource Unix environments, with > > > risk assessment, stability, and most of all expertise. > > > > > > I quote: > > > > > > "we believe that SCO has the largest staff of Open Source experts of any > > > commercial software vendor." > > > > > > "As a founding sponsor of Linux International, SCO is a strong proponent of > > > the Open Source movement, citing it as a driving force for innovation. Over > > > the years, SCO has contributed source code to the movement." > > > > > > ~~~~~ > > > > > > It's just lucky for us that SCO is there to drive forward Open Source!! > > > (huge sarcasm)!! > > > > > > Does anyone know if they done anything for FreeBSD Sability? :) > > > > Not all the sarcasm is deserved. Until I saw the light, and the cost > > benefits, I ran SCO UNIX and then OpenDeathTrap. SCO had quite a > > positive attitude to what is now called Open Source. Some of their > > developers were very helpful and active in the SCO news groups and > > mailing lists. Header files and libraries were available for the base > > system so that you could use gcc rather than the ever so expensive > > development system (I think). There were, still are for all I know, > > the periodic Skunkware CDs, chock full of ported and compiled freeware, > > which SCO would send to you for free. > > > > Their claim to having the largest staff of Open Source experts of any > > commercial software vendor could well be true. I'm sure that they do > > believe the Open Source approach and attendant innovation is overall > > good for them. While they will loose a few sales to organisations who > > switch to Linux or *BSD, the majority of their customers seem to be > > prepared to pay lots for the product, and more for support. > > > > Yes, a competitor, but a friendly one. They don't seem to have any > > ambitions to take over the entire OS market, just enlarge their niche. > > > > -- > > Adrian Wontroba > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 2:44:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5B014DB1 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA27683; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:42:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA28176; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:47:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990913114732.51670@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:47:32 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Greg Quinlan Cc: Pat Lynch , Adrian Wontroba , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda References: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk>; from Greg Quinlan on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 10:34:00AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Quinlan writes: > Then-the saga of moving from unlimited user version to limited (16.32, > ...512) trying to explain to customers that it was just so they could > identify and look after their customers better. Ohh... yes then there was > the [...] > So the moral to the story is: I carefully looked at other OS's and selected > FreeBSD. ;) Well, that hasn't much to do with their positive attitude towards Free Software. Not that I'm denying the fact that their marketing sucks, and that their products suck. Phil, remembering the time when SCO seriously wanted people to pay $1000 for a TCP/IP stack. I just hung up on them. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 3:19:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECF515058 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Greg.Quinlan@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (qmh-00553.qmpgmc.ac.uk [10.1.20.82]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA49689; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:16:51 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <003601befdd1$e2f5bbe0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: "Pat Lynch" , "Adrian Wontroba" , References: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990913114732.51670@ns.int.ftf.net> Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:22:30 +0100 Organization: Queen Marys Hospital (SWLCT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Phil Regnauld > Well, that hasn't much to do with their positive attitude towards > Free Software. > > Not that I'm denying the fact that their marketing sucks, and that > their products suck. > > Phil, remembering the time when SCO seriously wanted people > to pay $1000 for a TCP/IP stack. I just hung up on them. > I remember that :).... $1275 (RRP) for TCP .... $1275 for NFS.... hahaha I think it was a bit like buying a car; What?? You want wheels! (TCP) and Seats??? (NFS) ..... Sorry this model does not come with an air-bag!!! (Source). Although we do provide break-down assistance (Loads of Patches). They even charged you more if you got the OS on 1/4 " tape, rather than floppies... (so of course the customer bought the floppy version.) I was always delighted when on disk 13 of 43 floppy disks .... "I/o error unable to read distribution floppy" :() ...(did not get SCO on CD back then) The good old days... ;) I must absolutely agree "their marketing sucks" big time... I still think Microsoft owns 40% of SCO?! You'd think the marketing would have been as slick as MickySoft! Or was it deliberate sabotage? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 3:31:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B981E14A0A for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26671; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:31:08 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:31:08 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , "Daniel O'Connor" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Bac In-Reply-To: <19990913180021.B10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org crikey, chat has been been busy lately :-) 1/ put me down for a "brett shut up: vote" (however i would never support banning him and I know you (members of the list) don't either. This is a message to brett.) 2/ brett, i saw a few posts back that you would like to see a policy of the usage of the FreeBSD (only place i'm gonna bother with the caps) logo/trademark. Well, i really like the stuff you write (except for on chat) so let's see a policy. write one and put it up. don't badger jordan and others, WRITE something. you obviously have the time to do so, let's see it happen. don't give me an excuse, do it. 3/ i'm afraid i must agree with some of the other posters in that you seem to say things in a way that antogonises people and pisses of those who spend a lot of unpaid time furthering the cause. i see this under two heading, 1: preaching to the converted and 2: browbeating those who are already working under maximum load. 4/ (quoted from previous message, sorry if it's out of context) brett>>No, it hasn't. Only a few vociferous people have accepted your brett>>invitation to condemn me publicly, out of the hundreds who are brett>>"tuned in." a group of local politicians looking for ways to justify themselves called the non-attenders at a recent meeting the "silent majority" and then claimed to speak for them. there are hundreds of people tuned in, i am one of those (i don't speak for them). i usually choose not to respond as i lack the communication skills to fence with you, especially when you (as i see it) change tangents when challenged. (actually just especially as i lack the skills) i also seek not to add fuel to the fire. i wonder how much damage your ranting does to the likes of jordan and other committers who are working as hard as they can and then are criticised by those whom they see as adding nothing. (i apologise to the other committers whose work i use daily and can't even remember their names) don't count the "silent majority" either for you or against you, they are _silent_. if they were passionately for you they'd speak, likewise if they were passionately agains you. 5/ vociferous: clamerous, loud and insistent in speech i'm sorry brett but you fit the mold as much as any of the respondents. 6/ you are stating your points with as little emotion as possible but in a way that evokes the most emotion possible (actually an idea (totally off the wall) has just come to me. could it be that you are actually not a real person but instead a ghost writer seeking to make the core and committer team look to be under fire and acting responsibly and under duress?) it cannot possible be that you do not realise the impact of your statements. the first lessons in email ettiquette demand one not respond instantly and emotionally (even if dispassionately) as it is too easy to carelessly offend 7/ may we _please_ have the url's for some of your articles. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 5: 0:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF13114FE0 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 05:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA17606; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:00:10 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When they came for Brett References: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Sep 1999 14:00:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: "G. Adam Stanislav"'s message of "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 14:44:53 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a > dangerous precedent. There already is a precedent: Jesus Monroy. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 5: 7:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7310F1555F for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 05:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA06103; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:07:09 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:07:08 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Jay Nelson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Jay Nelson wrote: > I believe that all the BSDs are correct in focusing on the server side > of the world. In that world, the concerns and objectives are entirely > different than the desktop world. Look at what we already have. There > is little value to vinum, for example on the desktop. There is > tremendous value, though on the server side. > I strongly disagree with this. vinum has a place on the desktop. Believing that vinum has no place on the desktop (in the worstation, if you will) is believing that either: a) you don't need storage at the desktop b) you don't need the storage management facilities that vinum provides are not needed on the desktop (consider that in the matter of months, the smallest available hdd will be at least 18gb) c) you don't need the speed/reliability options vinum provides on the desktop. As storage costs almost nothing (see b) you might just as well make sure it doesnt't go away or is faster. I don't think any of these are warranted. > > --Jay > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 8:54: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502AE14D21 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:53:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13612; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:53:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:53:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When they came for Brett In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990912185632.04af8df0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:47 PM 9/12/99 -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: > >This is not always true. If you form your questions/comments so that they > >are very very specific he will ignore them. He recently said he'd been > >doing a lot of advocacy and Jordan, among others, noted that we haven't > >seen any of these articles. > That's because I already answered the same question for someone else, > not more than a week ago, on this list. Okay - I certainly missed that answer. Scrolling back through the lists and such I found your reply (and thanks to Donald Tyson for forwarding it to me). Having gone through your links, I found _one_ article that was recent - July 12, 1999 in Smart Reseller. I certainly don't recall seeing the link to that story ever posted here, but there you go. That said, this is another "GPL vs. BSD" article which IMO isn't needed - this has been beaten to death innumerable times and frankly I regret Daemon News playing this up as much as we have. All this ever does is start flames. It certainly doesn't cause legions of people who use Linux to switch over. Note here that both Jordan and I had been asking about _recent_ articles and this is the only recent thing I could find (other than all of the talkback on zdnet and the occasional times I've seen you in /. comments. In my opinion, and of course this is my opinion, Jordan's work at cons, getting interviews, and handing out buttons does a lot more to switch people than constantly harping on the GPL. While I don't particularly like the GPL, I can't see how preaching to the masses will cause them to suddenly abandon it. In my opinion effective advocacy is done hand to hand. Talking to individual people or groups of users and showing them how BSD is better/easier/more powerful works. You said at one point that you have a users group there so you are certainly doing this. In addition I think you can do effective advocacy in print by telling people why BSD is better at _______, rather than just saying it has a better license. > Funny: I've noted that when I repeat myself for the benefit of people > who have ignored my earlier postings, those who wish to discredit me > -- or discourage others from reading my messages -- claim that I do > nothing but say the same things over and over. But if I don't respond > to the redundant queries, I'm told that I must not have a good answer. > Aha! Catch-22! This is what's known as being "trolled." The object is > either to discredit the target, wear him or her out, or waste his or > her time. Your earlier message seemed well-meaning and friendly, but > after this one I must ask: is this your intent as well? I hope not. No but if I specifically asked you I expected that you might, in private email, send me a list of your recent publications. I didn't figure that was much to ask, especially since you could have just forwarded me your email to Donald (since I missed that - my fault) or just told me to go dig through the list. I'm sorry I missed your post. But I also wanted an actual list, not "go search here." Anyway, enough of this. Good luck on your project. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 9:42:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42038155A5 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA78580; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "David Schwartz" , "Jay Nelson" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, jkh@cdrom.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Sep 1999 15:14:09 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990912145908.04af73a0@localhost> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:42:26 -0700 Message-ID: <78576.937240946@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In the more specific case of the FreeBSD project and creators of FreeBSD > distributions: Does it make sense to favor large companies over small ones? It makes the most sense to "favor" whichever people are doing the project the most tangible, measurable good. Perhaps if we'd all been raised in communist societies, we'd feel differently. :) In any case, since you're not talking about calling your product "FreeBSD" I have a hard time understanding the logic of this whole discussion. You're free to call a substantially derived product anything you like, just so long as that something isn't "FreeBSD" since that word is already used to describe the product exactly as it's released by the FreeBSD Project. Those who simply package it and sell it, like CheapBytes or Walnut Creek CDROM, can call the resulting product FreeBSD because it, well, is. Modify it substantially, as people like Oracle and Apple have done, and you have to call it something like "NCOS" or "OS X". None of the discussions to date have suggested that you have anything less than substantial changes in mind therefore you can call it BrettOS or something and we'll have no issue with the results. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 10: 2:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F954155DC for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22312; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 03:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:21:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Andrew Perry Cc: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 02:26:43 +0000 (GMT) > > From: Alfred Perlstein > > To: Greg Lehey > > Cc: Brett Glass , > > "Jason C. Wells" , > > FreeBSD-chat > > Subject: Re: Who owns FreeBSD? (was: Good News! FreeBSD monopoly! (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD)) > > > > > > > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > On Sunday, 12 September 1999 at 19:35:43 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 04:58 AM 9/13/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > > > > >> I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. > > > > > > > > I say that it has revealed some nagging problems which are doing > > > > FreeBSD harm. You're blaming the messenger. > > > > > > If you're the messenger, who made these claims? I thought you were > > > the originator. > > > > There's this annoying guy who posts to slashdot about it (demise > > of FreeBSD), funny name though, "Anonymous Coward" :) > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Andrew Perry wrote: > I think that (sorry if i'm telling you how to suck eggs) Anonymous Coward > is for anyone who posts and doesn't register first. Yes, I know that, hence the quotes and smiley. :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 10:50:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA70614A12 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13900; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:50:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA08336; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:50:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id MAA07240; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:50:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:50:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >discussion. You're free to call a substantially derived product >anything you like, just so long as that something isn't "FreeBSD" >since that word is already used to describe the product exactly as >it's released by the FreeBSD Project. Ah, yes, now I think that we've reached the core of the problem that Brett is having. If I understand him correctly, he wants to be able to leverage off the FreeBSD name. Creating a new distribution with a new name wouldn't allow him to make use of the mindshare behind the FreeBSD project, and might lead to the perception of another schism in the *BSD camp. Isn't there some way that we can come up with a labeling which would explicitly allow the various offshoots of FreeBSD to identify themselves with the project, while making it clear that they are separate efforts? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 11: 9: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541B015862 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA26634; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:05:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA30754; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:10:18 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990913201017.31376@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:10:17 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field References: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs>; from Jonathan Lemon on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 12:50:38PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Lemon writes: > > Isn't there some way that we can come up with a labeling which would > explicitly allow the various offshoots of FreeBSD to identify themselves > with the project, while making it clear that they are separate efforts? FreeBSD/Brett. :-) -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 11:23:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CEF314BED for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24342; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:22:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990913120027.04ae8e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:22:48 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-Reply-To: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:50 PM 9/13/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Ah, yes, now I think that we've reached the core of the problem that >Brett is having. If I understand him correctly, he wants to be able >to leverage off the FreeBSD name. Not so much "leverage off" -- if I wanted to "leverage off" a big name, I'd want to use Linux, since it's so much bigger. But I would want to IDENTIFY it as being built on top of FreeBSD. This would make it clear that it would be compatible with software written for FreeBSD, benefiting everyone: the project, which would get credit and more native software; the consumer, who wants things to be compatible; and the product, which wouldn't be mistaken for a totally different beast. > Creating a new distribution with >a new name wouldn't allow him to make use of the mindshare behind the >FreeBSD project, and might lead to the perception of another schism >in the *BSD camp. It's the latter, to my way of thinking, that would be the big problem. As an advocate of BSD UNIX in general, the last thing I would want to do is create is the perception that the BSDs were fragmenting still more! Also, to create a new fork would waste resources that could be used to improve the existing "trident." >Isn't there some way that we can come up with a labeling which would >explicitly allow the various offshoots of FreeBSD to identify themselves >with the project, while making it clear that they are separate efforts? I've proposed exactly this to Jordan in private e-mail. In essence, what I have proposed is to continue the practices which Walnut Creek and Cheap Bytes are already following. The name "FreeBSD" by itself should be reserved for products derived solely from a master release, without add-ons. (Inclusion of the ports and packages would, naturally, be optional.) But other software products that include at least a certain amount of FreeBSD could use the name "FreeBSD" as PART of their names. This is what Walnut Creek does: it sells a software/book package called "The Complete FreeBSD" and a software-only "FreeBSD Toolkit." Books and seminars on FreeBSD wouldn't have to include software to use the name, though I anticipate that they most often would. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 11:44: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474081567C for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA26944; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:42:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA30977; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:47:13 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990913204713.07674@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:47:13 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Brett Glass Cc: Jonathan Lemon , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field References: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> <4.2.0.58.19990913120027.04ae8e10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990913120027.04ae8e10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 12:22:48PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > > I've proposed exactly this to Jordan in private e-mail. In essence, what You know, you might have avoided a lot of friction and gotten supoprt for your cause earlier, if it hadn't taken you so damn long to clearly state what you wanted to do. You may unfortunately already have pissed off many people on the lists by now. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 11:52:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A73614D90 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 0F6D5425C; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F05109C3A; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:52:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :Think about it, it dropped thier shields and made their systems all :go haywire, sort of like that battleship that had to be towed back :into bay a few months ago. If we could get hostile aliens to adopt :NT we'd be safe for years and years. The USS Yorktown is an AEGIS Cruiser. I remember when it was launched at the Yorktown Naval Weapons Station back in the late 80's. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 11:54: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71C1714A12 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 89342425C; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83ED79C3A; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:54:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Rick Hamell wrote: :Senate Inquiry Committe: "So, Mr. Gates your company knowingly released :software with bugs in it for mission critical applications?" Read the license. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 12: 6:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800F614D5B for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BE51E4266; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA2B39C3B; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:06:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Cliff Crawford Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Cliff Crawford wrote: :Excuse me, but the correct term is "Linux weenies". As a Weenix Unie of many flavors, I object. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 12:13:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu (exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0B2152DD; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu (ppp3.pm2b.wport.com [206.129.99.83]) by exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SV1F9A38; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:10:21 -0700 Message-ID: <37DD4CD3.CD31F3FF@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:13:23 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Doug , Donald Burr , Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... References: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> <19990911222428.A44368@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in > > Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides > > if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... > > Did they use a wintel machine in Independence Day? I'll have to watch it again. -- Eric Hodel - hodeleri@seattleu.edu | Customers will come to our Aspiring programmer & FPS minor demi-god. | 'home page' in unbelievable ------------------------------------------/ numbers and find out every- thing we want them to know. --Bill Gates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 12:22:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563B61569E for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA25922; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 05:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:41:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Eric Hodel Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: <37DD4CD3.CD31F3FF@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in > > > Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides > > > if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... > > > > > > Did they use a wintel machine in Independence Day? I'll have to watch > it again. No, all true hackers, special agents and virrii writers use Macs, haven't you been watching movies for the last 10 years? I think the reason is that if you only have a single mouse button you get less bogged down by the UI and are better able to focus your secret agent, hacking or virus writing skills. ripping off my right and middle mouse buttons... -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 12:30:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A88814BE6 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from smarter.than.nu (ida-89-77.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.89.77]) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/) via ESMTP id MAA09303; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:30:46 -0700 (PDT) env-from (brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:30:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Eric Hodel Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: God, this is scary... In-Reply-To: <37DD4CD3.CD31F3FF@seattleu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in > > > Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides > > > if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... > > > > > > Did they use a wintel machine in Independence Day? I'll have to watch > it again. No, it was a Mac. The joke of the day was that the Mac won't interface with anything here on Earth, but amazingly works just fine when talking to alien space ships. :) -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 13:17:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu (exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67299151B6 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu (ppp8.pm2b.wport.com [206.129.99.88]) by exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SV1F9BYP; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:15:23 -0700 Message-ID: <37DD5C12.3380CFBA@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:18:26 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brian W. Buchanan" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: God, this is scary... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Brian W. Buchanan" wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > > > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in > > > > Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides > > > > if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... > > > > > > > > > > Did they use a wintel machine in Independence Day? I'll have to watch > > it again. > > No, it was a Mac. The joke of the day was that the Mac won't interface > with anything here on Earth, but amazingly works just fine when talking to > alien space ships. :) I _thought_ they used a Mac, I've not seen a wintel laptop in a movie in recent memory. The DoS message above refers to a Win95 PC, which I thought was wrong, but with the above statement... :> -- Eric Hodel - hodeleri@seattleu.edu | Customers will come to our Aspiring programmer & FPS minor demi-god. | 'home page' in unbelievable ------------------------------------------/ numbers and find out every- thing we want them to know. --Bill Gates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 13:44: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B370915235; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17149; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37DD61FC.534661@aracnet.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:43:40 -0700 From: "D.M.P." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Hodel Cc: Nik Clayton , Alfred Perlstein , Doug , Donald Burr , Pamela Gross , John DeGroof , SBLUG Users , Charles Gousha , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: God, this is scary... References: <37DAA48D.D1DD7EC2@gorean.org> <19990911222428.A44368@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <37DD4CD3.CD31F3FF@seattleu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 01:31:15PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >>> Although I think that the virus injected into the alien mothership in >>> Independance Day by Jeff Goldblum was win2k, it could save our hides >>> if packaged with enough M$ propoganda... >> >> > > Did they use a wintel machine in Independence Day? I'll have to watch > it again. No, they used a Mac Powerbook. Didn't you know? Aliens are Macintosh compatible. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 13:56:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDBC155F1 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25772; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:56:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990913144708.04ab3a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:55:12 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: Jonathan Lemon , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990913204713.07674@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990913120027.04ae8e10@localhost> <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> <4.2.0.58.19990913120027.04ae8e10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:47 PM 9/13/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > You know, you might have avoided a lot of friction and > gotten supoprt for your cause earlier, if it hadn't taken you > so damn long to clearly state what you wanted to do. But I did! In fact, I first mentioned the concept more than a month ago. No forks -- and nothing that would hurt the development project. > You may unfortunately already have pissed off many people on the lists > by now. There are, indeed, some people who are annoyed by all the traffic, if not the content. And a few people who have attacked me personally. But I hope that, when they see that I'm trying to do some good stuff which is in fact similar to what Walnut Creek is already doing, they'll come around. Who knows? Maybe even some of those who are so angry at me will forgive me (though I might have to find a way to bribe them. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 14:13:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 57CD814FE7; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: regnauld@ftf.net, jlemon@americantv.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19990913144708.04ab3a70@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:55:12 -0600) Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Message-Id: <19990913211341.57CD814FE7@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > You know, you might have avoided a lot of friction and > > gotten supoprt for your cause earlier, if it hadn't taken you > > so damn long to clearly state what you wanted to do. > > But I did! In fact, I first mentioned the concept more than a month > ago. No forks -- and nothing that would hurt the development project. you did, now that you mention it, i seem to remember seeing it.....somewhere buried in the masses of email. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 14:24: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF58514CC5 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:24:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26056; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:23:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990913152024.04acf1e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:23:42 -0600 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: When they came for Brett Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990912185632.04af8df0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:53 AM 9/13/99 -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: >Note here that both Jordan and I had been asking about _recent_ articles >and this is the only recent thing I could find (other than all of the >talkback on zdnet and the occasional times I've seen you in /. comments. I've mentioned some of them already. I must finish insulating a building before sundown, so I don't have time to compile a long list, but here's a pointer to several more, all in a bunch: http://boardwatch.internet.com/mag/writers/glass.html --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 14:52:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687A414CEE for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 14:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA97328; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:20:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:20:41 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When they came for Brett Message-ID: <19990913222041.A96444@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 02:00:09PM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 02:00:09PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > > I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a > > dangerous precedent. > > There already is a precedent: Jesus Monroy. You'll be pleased to know that some of the changes I've made to the FAQ and Handbook (or changes that I've folded in as part of submissions people have asked me to review) have been the direct result of comments made on -doc by Jesus M. So (a) he certainly hasn't been banned from all the lists, and (b) if he had been, we'd have lost commentary that's been instrumental in improving part of FreeBSD. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 17:40:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65DA915657 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA17445; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:28 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA25323; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:24 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When they came for Brett Message-ID: <19990914101024.K10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990912001417.A13908@wcug.wwu.edu> <199909120827.SAA20008@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <19990912144453.C227@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 02:00:09PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 13 September 1999 at 14:00:09 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: >> I am opposed to banning Brett from our mail lists, as that would set a >> dangerous precedent. > > There already is a precedent: Jesus Monroy. Did they ban Jesus? I don't think so. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 17:53: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092D914F2D for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 17:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA17498; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:22:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA25356; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:22:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:22:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Narvi Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Vinum on the desktop (was: Brett or no Brett?) Message-ID: <19990914102250.L10106@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 03:07:08PM +0300 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 13 September 1999 at 15:07:08 +0300, Narvi wrote: > On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Jay Nelson wrote: >> I believe that all the BSDs are correct in focusing on the server side >> of the world. In that world, the concerns and objectives are entirely >> different than the desktop world. Look at what we already have. There >> is little value to vinum, for example on the desktop. There is >> tremendous value, though on the server side. > > I strongly disagree with this. vinum has a place on the desktop. > > Believing that vinum has no place on the desktop (in the worstation, Now that's a nice word :-) > if you will) is believing that either: > > a) you don't need storage at the desktop > b) you don't need the storage management facilities that vinum > provides are not needed on the desktop (consider that in the > matter of months, the smallest available hdd will be at least 18gb) > c) you don't need the speed/reliability options vinum provides on > the desktop. As storage costs almost nothing (see b) you might > just as well make sure it doesnt't go away or is faster. > > I don't think any of these are warranted. FWIW, I think I'd agree with Jay up to a point. Most desktop users don't even do backups; they're not interested in reliability. They do one thing at a time; they're not interested in performance. They only have one disk; they can't do striping. Having said this, of course, there's nothing to stop people from using Vinum on the desktop. The real issue is that desktop machines are less demanding. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 18: 0:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14AA91518C for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 18:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id UAA91799; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 20:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA09648; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:34:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:34:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Vinum on the desktop. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Narvi wrote: [snip] >I strongly disagree with this. vinum has a place on the desktop. > >Believing that vinum has no place on the desktop (in the worstation, if >you will) is believing that either: True -- you're right -- but the context of the original comment was maiking FreeBSD more friendly for the average Joe -- to increase the marker share. For many of us, vinum is fantastic on the desktop, but that's not where it's true value lies. It's far more valuable when "marketing" to someone who has large disk arrays and data bases than the average Joe who only has one disk in his system. My point was that we have something tangible to "sell" to IT -- the server people -- something likely to get yawns from the desktop crowd. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 19:48:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D07D14CA8 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 9403 invoked by alias); 14 Sep 1999 02:48:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 9396 invoked from network); 14 Sep 1999 02:48:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 1999 02:48:51 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:46:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: CompUSA adventure Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org me: I'm looking for a non-winmodem PCI modem. sales droid: Why don't you want a winmodem? me: They're junk, and they only work with Windoze. droid: What are you using it with? me: Unix. droid: Ah. If you call Unix they should have a list of modems they support. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 19:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA9714CE8 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 19:56:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12637; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 22:56:40 -0400 (EDT) From: To: Dave Walton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure In-Reply-To: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: > me: I'm looking for a non-winmodem PCI modem. > sales droid: Why don't you want a winmodem? > me: They're junk, and they only work with Windoze. > droid: What are you using it with? > me: Unix. > droid: Ah. If you call Unix they > should have a list of modems they support. haha, now that is sad but oh so true. I have had many similar experiences at compusa, best buy etc.. I don't even talk to the sales people anymore, If I cant find what im looking for I just leave. Althought the last time I walked into the local CompUSA I was wearing my FreeBSD hat, and one of the sales dorks saw it and was a serious linux zealot and starting attacking me and proclaiming the end of the world on roll over to the new millinium and telling me how he will "stand proud when the world burns and windows is no more and I am happily booting up with LILO and linux shall rule the world!". I don't go to that store anymore :-) Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 21:55:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BD614C31 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 21:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Qkcx-000OrD-0A; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 04:55:35 +0000 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus.stade.co.uk [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12409; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 04:56:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA35275; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 04:54:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 04:54:51 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: Greg Quinlan Cc: Phil Regnauld , Pat Lynch , Adrian Wontroba , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Message-ID: <19990914045451.A35002@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990913114732.51670@ns.int.ftf.net> <003601befdd1$e2f5bbe0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <003601befdd1$e2f5bbe0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk>; from Greg Quinlan on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 11:22:30AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 11:22:30AM +0100, Greg Quinlan wrote: Regrettably, all those unfortunate things are true. Fragile, over-priced, under supported, the nickle and dime approach, ..... It was just your criticism of SCO's statement about their Open Source stance I was challenging (8-) -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 13 23: 5:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913B814E37 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA80896; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:50:38 CDT." <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 23:04:58 -0700 Message-ID: <80892.937289098@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Isn't there some way that we can come up with a labeling which would > explicitly allow the various offshoots of FreeBSD to identify themselves > with the project, while making it clear that they are separate efforts? It depends on how "separate" they are, and quantifying that is pretty difficult when it's really such a matter of "feel" for what's reasonable and what's not. I think we'll have to simply keep doing what we're doing, which is to look at each thing calling itself "FreeBSD" or using the word FreeBSD somewhere in its title and see if it looks appropriate. Things which simply call themselves FreeBSD in the software sense (e.g. having a CD labelled "FreeBSD distribution" or even "Turbo FreeBSD" :) have to conform to the basic structure of the official release, from the installation bits to the layout of sources and other components that would otherwise create great confusion were they to migrate or mutate substantially from the official version. Companion products, like "The FreeBSD coloring book" or the "FreeBSD games pack" which contain just "reasonably related" material for FreeBSD can also use the trademark as long as it's in good taste and contains some reasonable tie-in to the core product. I think the FreeBSD coloring book would be kind of cool, for example, whereas I think the "FreeBSD pop-up porno calendar" (or "Chucky the 13th") really wouldn't be. :). Some existing examples: "The Complete FreeBSD" is a book by Greg Lehey about FreeBSD. As such, it qualifies handily to use the trademark. Were the book actually about beekeeping, it would not. "The FreeBSD toolkit" is a 6-CD set containing all the extra FreeBSD packages and ports distfiles (+ other FreeBSD related things) that we can possibly cram onto them. It doesn't claim to be a distribution, and it's not, it's just an add-on pack specifically useful to FreeBSD people and it also thus qualifies to use the trademark in this fashion. Some hypothetical examples which would NOT work: "FreeBSD Ultra LEET" - A 10 CD FreeBSD distribution with a new re-vamped installer and a special bonus port to the Atari ST. This would definitely not qualify because of the different installer (and, as much as I may dislike my own installer, I at least know what people are talking about when they report "an installer bug in FreeBSD") and the Atari ST port would also be rather less than official since the project has no such thing in its CVS repository. "Really Small FreeBSD" - A binary-only distribution for embedded systems work, also containing proprietary network boot-ROM images and special drivers for various flash products. This would be a fine product, I am sure, but again it'd be just too different from "standard out-of-box expectations" that any user might reasonably have when hearing the FreeBSD name. Something with a lot of value-add for a specific use and no source tree would not meet those expectations, even though the product itself might be really great for that specific use. I'd recommend they call it something like "AtomAntOS" and just put "Based on FreeBSD" in their sales literature somewhere if they wanted to give us a nice acknowledgement and maybe catch a little of the open source buzz, however peripherally, at the same time. I hope this is clearer now. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 1:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7471914C2C for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA81671; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Subject: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:53:43 +0200." <4.1.19990914094145.016c3d00@194.184.65.4> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:13:40 -0700 Message-ID: <81668.937296820@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sold out?! I have a hard time believing that, let me check into it. - Jordan > After a big fight in find a fly to S.Francisco, my travel agency finally > succeeded in speaking with the Radisson hotel Marina for the reservation of > the room , but they told them that everything is "sold out" (every class of > room) for the period of the conference I whish to attend. > > Now I'd likt to ask: > > 1) Is there a reserved part of available places for freebsd users ? > 2) Is there another viable hotel solution _near_ to this hotel I can check ? > > Please asnswer as soon as possible, thanks... > > > > > Best Regards, > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > http://www2.masternet.it > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 1:29:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (hide14.nhs.uk [194.6.81.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CFB156CC for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:29:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Greg.Quinlan@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk) Received: from greg.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (qmh-00553.qmpgmc.ac.uk [10.1.20.82]) by amanda.swlct.sthames.nhs.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA85065; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:28:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <00d601befe8b$f35b2aa0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Reply-To: "Greg Quinlan" From: "Greg Quinlan" To: Cc: "Phil Regnauld" , "Pat Lynch" , "Adrian Wontroba" , References: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990913114732.51670@ns.int.ftf.net> <003601befdd1$e2f5bbe0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990914045451.A35002@titus.stade.co.uk> Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:34:24 +0100 Organization: Queen Marys Hospital (SWLCT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Adrian Wontroba > > > Regrettably, all those unfortunate things are true. Fragile, > over-priced, under supported, the nickle and dime approach, ..... > > It was just your criticism of SCO's statement about their Open Source > stance I was challenging (8-) It was more about supporting the Open Source arena, rather than their product or customers, that I found amusing/ disturbing. And if in the past SCO have shown that their own product to be fagile, what is their support for Open Source likely to be? :)))) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 1:49: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CCF5156BA for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA17576; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:47:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA34813; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:52:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990914105243.62964@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:52:43 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field References: <199909131750.MAA07240@free.pcs> <80892.937289098@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <80892.937289098@localhost>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Sep 13, 1999 at 11:04:58PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > FreeBSD coloring book would be kind of cool, for example, whereas I > think the "FreeBSD pop-up porno calendar" -core naked ? *shudder* > even though the product itself might be really great for that specific > use. I'd recommend they call it something like "AtomAntOS" and just > put "Based on FreeBSD" in their sales literature somewhere if they > wanted to give us a nice acknowledgement and maybe catch a little of > the open source buzz, however peripherally, at the same time. "FreeBSD inside". -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 1:52:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9C11567A for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 01:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08477; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:51:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <199909140851.KAA08477@scotty.masternet.it> Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Content-type: text/plain Mime-version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:51 +0100 X-mailer: Netbula AnyEMail(TM) 2.1 gianmarco_f_2000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Sold out?! I have a hard time believing that, let me check into it. Jordan, if you have time to check for me, could you so kind to reserve a room for me, if any... My infos are: Gianmarco Giovannelli Via della Liberazione 39 59100 Prato (PO) ITALY I'll arrive on 16-Oct and I leave on 22-Oct. My credit card is AMEX : 3752 049294 13008 04/01 G MARCO GIOVANNELLI Thanks again for your time... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 2: 5:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AB215273 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA21344; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:05:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. References: <199909140851.KAA08477@scotty.masternet.it> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Sep 1999 11:05:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:51 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org gmarco@scotty.masternet.it writes: > My credit card is AMEX : > xxxx xxxxxx xxxxx > xx/xx > x xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx Holey moley man, you really, *really* don't want to post this to a mailing list. I'd suggest you report your card stolen. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 2:12:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B637914A2E for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08850 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:12:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <199909140912.LAA08850@scotty.masternet.it> Subject: Sorry ... Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To: chat@freebsd.org From: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: Content-type: text/plain Mime-version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:12 +0100 X-mailer: Netbula AnyEMail(TM) 2.1 gianmarco_f_2000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 2:17:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036B814A2E for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08951 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:17:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <199909140917.LAA08951@scotty.masternet.it> Subject: Sorry ... Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit To: chat@freebsd.org From: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: Content-type: text/plain Mime-version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:17 +0100 X-mailer: Netbula AnyEMail(TM) 2.1 gianmarco_f_2000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am sorry with everyone for the post of my credit card info. It was due to the fact that I don't see the CC. field and I thought that was a private reply... I have blocked it and AMEX is making a new card for me right now... Sorry again for the waste of time that my message can have caused and thanks to everyone that answered me for have reported it. But, please drop the thread now ... I have understand :-) Thanks to everyone for attention... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 2:18:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF15B14A2E for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 02:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA19604; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:17:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA35019; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:22:09 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990914112209.42410@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:22:09 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. References: <199909140851.KAA08477@scotty.masternet.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:05:32AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > gmarco@scotty.masternet.it writes: > > My credit card is AMEX : > > xxxx xxxxxx xxxxx > > xx/xx > > x xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx > > Holey moley man, you really, *really* don't want to post this to a > mailing list. I'd suggest you report your card stolen. Yes, serioursly: your message will probably end up on several search engines, mail->news gateways and the like. Call your bank and cancel it ASAP. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 3:35:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F153B150BE for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 03:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem23.masternet.it [194.184.65.33]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01572; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:49:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990914094145.016c3d00@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:53:43 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After a big fight in find a fly to S.Francisco, my travel agency finally succeeded in speaking with the Radisson hotel Marina for the reservation of the room , but they told them that everything is "sold out" (every class of room) for the period of the conference I whish to attend. Now I'd likt to ask: 1) Is there a reserved part of available places for freebsd users ? 2) Is there another viable hotel solution _near_ to this hotel I can check ? Please asnswer as soon as possible, thanks... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 5: 9:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6377C151A2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 00F66425C; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0CCC9C39; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:09:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dave Walton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure In-Reply-To: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: :me: I'm looking for a non-winmodem PCI modem. :sales droid: Why don't you want a winmodem? :me: They're junk, and they only work with Windoze. :droid: What are you using it with? :me: Unix. :droid: Ah. If you call Unix they :should have a list of modems they support. Your best bet (really) is to just get an external modem, and be done with it. I have a USR Courier V.everything external, and It works on anything with a serial port. I have plugged it into SGIs and Suns, as well as Macs and PCs. It's more expensive than the internal, but I don't think the Courier internal is PCI yet, or if it even will be. If they do make a Courier internal PCI version, I seriously doubt it will be a LoseModem. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 5:14:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7E51509F for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D4F47425C; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA9519C39; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:14:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. In-Reply-To: <199909140851.KAA08477@scotty.masternet.it> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 gmarco@scotty.masternet.it wrote: :>Sold out?! I have a hard time believing that, let me check into it. : :Jordan, if you have time to check for me, could you so kind to reserve a :room for me, if any... : :My infos are: :Gianmarco Giovannelli :Via della Liberazione 39 :59100 Prato (PO) :ITALY Gianmarco, We're all adults here, but cancel that credit card. Now. Someone, somewhere is already making purchases. I'll assume sending to a public list was a mistake. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 5:20:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 32A5914D67; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:20:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com In-reply-to: <199909140851.KAA08477@scotty.masternet.it> (gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Subject: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. Message-Id: <19990914122018.32A5914D67@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PGP. whenever dealing with credit cards or any other sensitive information, use PGP to make sure that only the indented recipient can read the information. that way it does not matter that you accidently sent it to -chat. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 5:57:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A356157DA for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:57:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA00993; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:57:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04104; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:57:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:57:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: wwoods@cybcon.com, jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please don't let Timor people die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Like the US needs to get involved in another Land War in Asia. "You've made one of the classic blunders! First is never get involved in a land war in Asia, the second is never bet against a Cicillian when Death is on the line!" - Vicinni, Princes Bride Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com On 12 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > [moved from -security] > > William Woods writes: > > On 11-Sep-99 jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt wrote: > > > In the referendum promoted by UN 80 % of East Timor people voted for > > > Independence. Since then thousands on people have been killed > > > JUST FOR THEIR VOTE . Almost all international journalists have been > > > forced to leave East Timor ( only four rested ) . > > > [...] > > Fuck off..... > > It's spam, but it's well-meaning spam. If you don't like it, killfile > it, blackhole the sender's domain, or just ignore it, but there's no > reason to be rude. If you need someone to be rude to, talk to Brett > Glass . Invite him to go with you on a holiday trip > to East Timor, or something. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 6:51:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2937315041 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 06:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA37148; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. In-Reply-To: <19990914112209.42410@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a perfect example of why it's BAD to not have reply-to headers on a mailing list. On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: | Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: | > gmarco@scotty.masternet.it writes: | > > My credit card is AMEX : | > > xxxx xxxxxx xxxxx | > > xx/xx | > > x xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx | > | > Holey moley man, you really, *really* don't want to post this to a | > mailing list. I'd suggest you report your card stolen. | | Yes, serioursly: your message will probably end up on several | search engines, mail->news gateways and the like. | | Call your bank and cancel it ASAP. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7: 0:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 301D614BE2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22088; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:59:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Phil Regnauld , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Sep 1999 15:59:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cliff Crawford's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:51:00 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford writes: > Here's a perfect example of why it's BAD to not have reply-to headers > on a mailing list. Look again. The FreeBSD mailing lists don't set Reply-To. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:11:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D2214BE2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA38363; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Phil Regnauld , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: | Cliff Crawford writes: | > Here's a perfect example of why it's BAD to not have reply-to headers | > on a mailing list. | | Look again. The FreeBSD mailing lists don't set Reply-To. Yeah, that's what I just said. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:13:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (ttyA0b.phc.igs.net [216.58.103.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83714151BE for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:12:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04899; Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:35:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eagle@phc.igs.net) X-Authentication-Warning: eagle.phc.igs.net: eagle owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 00:35:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Garrett To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org as crazy as it may seem, i think brett may have actually accomplished somthing for freebsd advocacy by drawing some people closer together, in order to tell him he's a raving mad lunatic. Who's sole goal in life, seems to be to irritate jkh. Rob On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Should we have a vote? How many people would like to have Brett on > >the list (as a contributor), how many would prefer him to go away (or > >at least shut up)? I don't think he's done anything to merit being > >forcibly removed, but maybe a vote will help him get the message. > > Brett, at least shut up. > > Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells > Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither > | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:14:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (ttyA0b.phc.igs.net [216.58.103.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E879151FA for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:12:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02808; Sat, 11 Sep 1999 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from eagle@phc.igs.net) X-Authentication-Warning: eagle.phc.igs.net: eagle owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 05:29:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Garrett To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990910084750.0479a540@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So pr's now only contribute to source code, theres many areas that freebsd is lacking in, and as a writer. In particular in those areas they would greatly appreciate help, I assume this has always been the case. See somebody needs to WTFM, so others can read it. An article here or there doesn't cut it, while I'm not anywhere near as accomplished as you are, in a journalstic sense. I've done quite a bit of what i percieve as real advocacy. I have written an article for every issue of the FreeBSD zine to date, helped with several of the articles on the diary. Installed freebsd for many people, and walked lots of people through freebsd installation. No it's not a code thing.. its a mouth. verses work to accomplish thing. Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:21:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 6BB2D14A28; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, regnauld@ftf.net, gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Cliff Crawford on Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. Message-Id: <19990914142149.6BB2D14A28@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > | Cliff Crawford writes: > | > Here's a perfect example of why it's BAD to not have reply-to headers > | > on a mailing list. > | > | Look again. The FreeBSD mailing lists don't set Reply-To. > > Yeah, that's what I just said. we could set the Reply-To to the list. if set to the list, the same thing would have happened. we could set the Reply-To to the person that started the thread. if set to the person that started the thread, many threads would pop in and out of hte lists as people added the list to teh Cc: line. either way..... jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:34: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4200114C4C for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA22237; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:33:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Phil Regnauld , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Sep 1999 16:33:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cliff Crawford's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford writes: > On 14 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > | Cliff Crawford writes: > | > Here's a perfect example of why it's BAD to not have reply-to headers > | > on a mailing list. > | Look again. The FreeBSD mailing lists don't set Reply-To. > Yeah, that's what I just said. Foo! I didn't see the "not". "Reply-To" in connection with mailing lists has been discussed to death in various fora. It's a semi-religious issue, though it is my impression that most people who have actual experience managing mailing lists ("actual experience" as opposed to "strong opinions based on what one thinks managing a large mailing list may be like") are against it. That includes me. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 7:44:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F96150E8 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 07:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03935; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:44:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914080305.047718d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:44:16 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <80892.937289098@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:04 PM 9/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >It depends on how "separate" they are, and quantifying that is pretty >difficult when it's really such a matter of "feel" for what's >reasonable and what's not. I think we'll have to simply keep doing >what we're doing, which is to look at each thing calling itself >"FreeBSD" or using the word FreeBSD somewhere in its title and see if >it looks appropriate. In that case, there's a problem in that the standards are not cut and dried and objective. This creates a big risk for anyone who might consider producing a product based on FreeBSD. Would a product be denied use of the name because it was "too good" and therefore likely to divert sales from Walnut Creek? Worse still, case-by-case review would require the creator of a product to explicitly state his product plans to an employee of Walnut Creek CD-ROM, which (as you yourself say) might consider itself to be a direct competitor. Furthermore, the permission would likely have to be granted by you -- an employee of that competitor who (as you yourself said in an earlier message) would likely be working on those competitive products. THE developer of Walnut Creek's products would know every time someone was considering a new release, or maybe even a new feature. I hope that you can understand why this is cause for concern! >Things which simply call themselves FreeBSD in the software sense >(e.g. having a CD labelled "FreeBSD distribution" or even "Turbo >FreeBSD" :) have to conform to the basic structure of the official >release, from the installation bits In the source code for the current FreeBSD installer, there's a remark from one "JKH" saying, "This utility is a prototype which lasted several years past its expiration date and is greatly in need of death." Therefore, it does not seem to me that it is a good idea to discourage add-ons such as a better installer, so long as those improvements are clearly labeled as such and the original is included. >to the layout of sources and other >components that would otherwise create great confusion were they to >migrate or mutate substantially from the official version. Again, this could cause problems. Suppose a product shipped with an enhanced source browser or an improved development environment? If so, it makes sense to include the sources in a format that these additions could use. >Companion products, like "The FreeBSD coloring book" or the "FreeBSD >games pack" which contain just "reasonably related" material for >FreeBSD can also use the trademark as long as it's in good taste and >contains some reasonable tie-in to the core product. I think the >FreeBSD coloring book would be kind of cool, for example, whereas I >think the "FreeBSD pop-up porno calendar" (or "Chucky the 13th") >really wouldn't be. :). > >Some existing examples: > >"The Complete FreeBSD" is a book by Greg Lehey about FreeBSD. As >such, it qualifies handily to use the trademark. Were the book >actually about beekeeping, it would not. > >"The FreeBSD toolkit" is a 6-CD set containing all the extra FreeBSD >packages and ports distfiles (+ other FreeBSD related things) that we >can possibly cram onto them. It doesn't claim to be a distribution, >and it's not, it's just an add-on pack specifically useful to FreeBSD >people and it also thus qualifies to use the trademark in this fashion. I, personally, consider this to be an enhanced distribution, since it contains a full "snapshot" plus extras. >Some hypothetical examples which would NOT work: > >"FreeBSD Ultra LEET" - A 10 CD FreeBSD distribution with a new >re-vamped installer and a special bonus port to the Atari ST. This >would definitely not qualify because of the different installer (and, >as much as I may dislike my own installer, I at least know what people >are talking about when they report "an installer bug in FreeBSD") and >the Atari ST port would also be rather less than official since the >project has no such thing in its CVS repository. Again, it's odd that you would deny use of the trademark due to the replacement of an installer which is "in need of death" with one that makes FreeBSD easier to use. >"Really Small FreeBSD" - A binary-only distribution for embedded >systems work, A distribution for embedded systems work would not succeed if it were binary-only. Embedded systems developers INSIST on having source. I wouldn't mind, though, if the source were on online rather than on the disk, so long as I could always get to it and recompile from it if I chose. >also containing proprietary network boot-ROM images and >special drivers for various flash products. This would be a fine >product, I am sure, but again it'd be just too different from >"standard out-of-box expectations" that any user might reasonably have >when hearing the FreeBSD name. I would think that appending something appropriate to the name, such as "BlobWare Embedded FreeBSD," should be sufficient to indicate that the product was different. I, personally, could probably use a product like the above -- but only if source was either on the disk or online. > Something with a lot of value-add for >a specific use and no source tree would not meet those expectations, >even though the product itself might be really great for that specific >use. It doesn't seem to me that the FULL source tree should be on disk in every case. Kernel sources are necessary for a kernel rebuild, but the rest is so easily obtained from the Net, and so seldom used even by technically oriented users, that requiring it to be on the disk is a waste of space for many. I myself would be quite happy if the product were able to bring in the full tree from the Net upon request, but I certainly don't need it for most installs. I'd rather see the space on the first disk taken up by utilities I need; the sources could go on a later disk or even just be made available for automatic download (as they already are, in fact). Currently, I have to switch, awkwardly, between CDs to get all of the utilities I prefer to install on a new FreeBSD system. I'd rather have more of them on one CD. > I'd recommend they call it something like "AtomAntOS" and just >put "Based on FreeBSD" in their sales literature somewhere if they >wanted to give us a nice acknowledgement and maybe catch a little of >the open source buzz, however peripherally, at the same time. I think that the identification provided by a footnote such as "Based on FreeBSD" would be too weak to prevent the world at large (and especially Linux fanatics) from calling it a fork. Which would harm the reputation of all of the BSDs, most especially the one they would say it was forked from. This would hurt the project. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 8:13:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A9315302 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA42207; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Phil Regnauld , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: | "Reply-To" in connection with mailing lists has been discussed to | death in various fora. It's a semi-religious issue, though it is my | impression that most people who have actual experience managing | mailing lists ("actual experience" as opposed to "strong opinions | based on what one thinks managing a large mailing list may be like") | are against it. That includes me. Oh, well that explains it then--I've only run *small* mailing lists (~10 members) and I love Reply-to. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 8:47:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA6C1515B for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA49063; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:46:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:46:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Greg Lehey Cc: Narvi , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vinum on the desktop (was: Brett or no Brett?) In-Reply-To: <19990914102250.L10106@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > FWIW, I think I'd agree with Jay up to a point. Most desktop users > don't even do backups; they're not interested in reliability. Only because they are completely and utterly ignorant of the fact that their data will "go away" at some point in time because of hardware failures or other problems. Either that, or they accept the fact that their data does "go away" at times as normal and think there is nothing they can do about it (the MS world we live in). I deal with hundreds of computer-illiterate people every day who every once in a while say "Why can't I get my Word document off this floppy?!?!" when the ONE bad spot that grows on the disk decides to show up right in the middle of the most important document. They either expect it to "just work" 100% of the time out of sheer ignorance, or like playing russian roulette with their data. Just my personal experience. :-) > They do one thing at a time; they're not interested in > performance. They only have one disk; they can't do striping. > > Having said this, of course, there's nothing to stop people from > using Vinum on the desktop. The real issue is that desktop > machines are less demanding. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 11:22:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6196414DB2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA83266; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 08:44:16 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990914080305.047718d0@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:22:17 -0700 Message-ID: <83262.937333337@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In that case, there's a problem in that the standards are not cut > and dried and objective. This creates a big risk for anyone who Things, as they say, are tough all over. I can live with this one and so can you. > Therefore, it does not seem to me that it is a good idea to discourage > add-ons such as a better installer, so long as those improvements > are clearly labeled as such and the original is included. Nobody is discouraging any such thing, you simply can't go write a new one and then release it as part of "FreeBSD" and confuse the hell out of everybody. Do what I and Walnut Creek CDROM did instead and simply contribute it to the project and get it into the source tree, then it's no longer a divergent effort. Tada, "problem" solved. > Again, it's odd that you would deny use of the trademark due to the > replacement of an installer which is "in need of death" with one > that makes FreeBSD easier to use. Not odd at all, and if you think so then you clearly have yet to grasp the essential point. Since I've also made this point repeatedly, there's really nothing more I can do here. :) - Joradn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 11:41:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A00155D6 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA54946; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:40:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:40:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-Reply-To: <83262.937333337@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: | - Joradn Looks like there's another bug in jordan.pl. Has anyone submitted a PR yet? -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 11:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187A0155F9 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:44:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18648; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:43:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id NAA02019; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:43:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990914134355.40274@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:43:55 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Cliff Crawford Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field References: <83262.937333337@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Cliff Crawford on Sep 09, 1999 at 02:40:41PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 02:40:41PM -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > | - Joradn > > Looks like there's another bug in jordan.pl. Has anyone submitted a PR yet? No, probably just one of the ECC chips failing. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 11:46:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA83A15641 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:45:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA83501; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Cliff Crawford , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:43:55 CDT." <19990914134355.40274@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:45:20 -0700 Message-ID: <83498.937334720@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good guesses, all of you, but it was really just a buffer overrun. I'd better fix it before there's an exploit released. :) > On Sep 09, 1999 at 02:40:41PM -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > | - Joradn > > > > Looks like there's another bug in jordan.pl. Has anyone submitted a PR yet ? > > No, probably just one of the ECC chips failing. > -- > Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 11:54:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84CE15270 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 11:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06469; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:54:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914122930.04ad8c20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:53:48 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <83262.937333337@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:22 AM 9/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > In that case, there's a problem in that the standards are not cut > > and dried and objective. This creates a big risk for anyone who > >Things, as they say, are tough all over. I can live with this one and >so can you. If there were not an intimate association between you and Walnut Creek CD-ROM, I would not be concerned. But because you are an employee (and, almost certainly, a shareholder) of Walnut Creek, it seems to me that Walnut Creek's interests might come into play in such a decision. This is especially true since, at least as of this moment, Walnut Creek still owns the trademark "FreeBSD." What guarantee would a third party -- or, for that matter, the contributors who have given their code or documentation in good faith -- have that decisions would not be made solely for Walnut Creek's benefit? > > Therefore, it does not seem to me that it is a good idea to discourage > > add-ons such as a better installer, so long as those improvements > > are clearly labeled as such and the original is included. > >Nobody is discouraging any such thing, you simply can't go write a new >one and then release it as part of "FreeBSD" and confuse the hell out >of everybody. Many things written by others are released on CD-ROMs labeled "FreeBSD" now. They include everything from XFree86 to GCC to a plethora of editors, network utilities, and other tools. The installation program even invokes some of these products -- e.g. the XFree86 installer! So, there is much precedent for including something that isn't itself part of FreeBSD or the output of the FreeBSD project, and even for having it run as part of the installation. What you seem to be concerned about, in this case, is the possibility that a third party component or utility will be mistaken for the FreeBSD project's work. Again, the current release already creates this problem by invoking, for example, the XFree86 configuration utility as part of the install. But if you absolutely insisted, it would be possible to keep code which was not the product of the FreeBSD project on a separate disk. This would parallel Walnut Creek's FreeBSD Toolkit, which contains a "snapshot" release and then other disks. In this case, the product name should be able to include the name FreeBSD, just as the FreeBSD Toolkit's name does. (Any other policy would unduly favor Walnut Creek, since it already does this.) Does this sound reasonable to you? > Do what I and Walnut Creek CDROM did instead and simply >contribute it to the project and get it into the source tree, then >it's no longer a divergent effort. Tada, "problem" solved. It is very likely that many things which were done as part of that distribution would be contributed. But this should not be a requirement. You yourself, in an earlier message, spoke of the notion of contributing code after a reasonable delay. Also, some bundled items might be the licensed property of third parties, in which case it would not be possible to contribute them. This should not preclude their inclusion in the product. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 12:13:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D9C14FD0 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA21344; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:13:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:13:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: jordan.pl (was Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field) In-Reply-To: <83498.937334720@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now I'm really impressed! jordan.pl is security-minded AND self-modifying. :) On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: # Good guesses, all of you, but it was really just a buffer overrun. # I'd better fix it before there's an exploit released. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 12:24:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2731814FFD for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28365; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 05:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:43:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Julian Elischer Cc: Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbus/bus/space info at FBSDcon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Julian Elischer wrote: > yo guys, are we going to have a lecture on this > new-bus/bus-space/new-config/etc/etc. at the FreeBSDcon? > > This stuff is pretty hard to digest in one hit and it would be great if > there was some introductory talk to get us headded int eh right > direction.. At lease one more person interested. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 12:31:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C5114FFD for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00963; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:30:41 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:30:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Julian Elischer , Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbus/bus/space info at FBSDcon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > yo guys, are we going to have a lecture on this > > new-bus/bus-space/new-config/etc/etc. at the FreeBSDcon? > > > > This stuff is pretty hard to digest in one hit and it would be great if > > there was some introductory talk to get us headded int eh right > > direction.. > > At lease one more person interested. > Would be extremely nice if say at least the lecture notes showed up later somewhere for those who cannot come... > -Alfred > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 12:32:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092601502F for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem18.masternet.it [194.184.65.28]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA17445 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:32:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990914213152.00980d00@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:37:02 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: # Reply-to. (was freebsdcon and Radisson ....) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14/09/99, Cliff Crawford wrote: >On 14 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >| "Reply-To" in connection with mailing lists has been discussed to >| death in various fora. It's a semi-religious issue, though it is my >| impression that most people who have actual experience managing >| mailing lists ("actual experience" as opposed to "strong opinions >| based on what one thinks managing a large mailing list may be like") >| are against it. That includes me. > >Oh, well that explains it then--I've only run *small* mailing lists (~10 >members) and I love Reply-to. :) I love it too in my mailing lists... If reply-to is set probably I could understand better what I was doing this morning because the name of the list appeared in the To field when you reply .. :-) But it is good only if you have a closed mailing lists because if in the mailing list can write also person whose are not subscribed they don't receive answers until you write their address manually... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 12:35:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FF7151C6 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA83683; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:53:48 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990914122930.04ad8c20@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:35:03 -0700 Message-ID: <83679.937337703@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If there were not an intimate association between you and Walnut Creek > CD-ROM, I would not be concerned. But because you are an employee *shrug* - can't help you there, sorry. I've explained all this about as much as it's possible to explain it and I don't see any future alternations in this situation happening, so there you have it. > Many things written by others are released on CD-ROMs labeled "FreeBSD" > now. They include everything from XFree86 to GCC to a plethora of editors, I don't see the relevance of this point. > network utilities, and other tools. The installation program even > invokes some of these products -- e.g. the XFree86 installer! So, So? > What you seem to be concerned about, in this case, is the possibility > that a third party component or utility will be mistaken for the FreeBSD > project's work. Again, the current release already creates this problem No, I'm worried that there will be a whole third party distribution which will be mistaken for the FreeBSD Project's release. If somebody really wants to think we wrote XFree86 all by ourselves and are major coding studs, well, I won't lose any sleep over that though folks like David Dawes sure might. :) > It is very likely that many things which were done as part of that > distribution would be contributed. But this should not be a requirement. As long as the component itself was not a requirement to installing the product, I'd agree. If you make your hypothetical new installer a requirement and now all the users of "FreeBSD HyperBrett" are going through a substantially different installation experience and posting emails to -questions which say things like "I'm at the default smell configuration menu and I can't decide between (M)usty library and (D)amp basement, has anyone tried these two smells yet?", well, the people who staff those lists are going to be exceedingly confused. If you were to donate the installer to the project and everybody agreed that setting the default smell and viscosity of one's desktop were fabulous options which they really wish had been in there all along, well, then your installer would be the new default and the only "odd questions" they'd get in -questions would be from people using the old installer, to which of course they'd just yell "upgrade" and go on to the next message. No problem. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 13: 7:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0801715024 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07189; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:06:24 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <83679.937337703@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 PM 9/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> It is very likely that many things which were done as part of that > > distribution would be contributed. But this should not be a requirement. > >As long as the component itself was not a requirement to installing >the product, I'd agree. If you make your hypothetical new installer a >requirement and now all the users of "FreeBSD HyperBrett" are going >through a substantially different installation experience and posting >emails to -questions which say things like "I'm at the default smell >configuration menu and I can't decide between (M)usty library and >(D)amp basement, has anyone tried these two smells yet?", well, the >people who staff those lists are going to be exceedingly confused. How about if the user is given the option of which installer to use? Use of the new installer would not be a requirement but rather a third- party option, and clearly labeled as such. Would this work? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 13:12:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC0C14C19 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19055; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) id PAA07499; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:11:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990914151130.32047@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:11:30 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field References: <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sep 09, 1999 at 02:06:24PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sep 09, 1999 at 02:06:24PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:35 PM 9/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >> It is very likely that many things which were done as part of that > > > distribution would be contributed. But this should not be a requirement. > > > >As long as the component itself was not a requirement to installing > >the product, I'd agree. If you make your hypothetical new installer a > >requirement and now all the users of "FreeBSD HyperBrett" are going > >through a substantially different installation experience and posting > >emails to -questions which say things like "I'm at the default smell > >configuration menu and I can't decide between (M)usty library and > >(D)amp basement, has anyone tried these two smells yet?", well, the > >people who staff those lists are going to be exceedingly confused. > > How about if the user is given the option of which installer to use? > Use of the new installer would not be a requirement but rather a third- > party option, and clearly labeled as such. Would this work? Or maybe the establishment of a slightly diluted name would suffice to insure that it is different from the FreeBSD Project? E.g: Lariat/fbsd? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 13:20:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7710A152D8 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:19:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05178; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt014nb6.san.rr.com To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sorry ... In-Reply-To: <199909140917.LAA08951@scotty.masternet.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999 gmarco@scotty.masternet.it wrote: > I am sorry with everyone for the post of my credit card info. hey, no problem. Everyone makes mistakes. Just be glad you didn't post it to a linux list.... :) Doug -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 13:23:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu (exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0131A14C20 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:23:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu (ppp11.pm2a.wport.com [206.129.99.61]) by exegrnnts001.seattleu.edu with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SV1F9SWK; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:21:09 -0700 Message-ID: <37DEAED1.251F4B0@seattleu.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:23:46 -0700 From: Eric Hodel Organization: Dis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Arthur H. Johnson II" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , wwoods@cybcon.com, jotajustino@mail.telepac.pt, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Please don't let Timor people die References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Arthur H. Johnson II" wrote: > > Like the US needs to get involved in another Land War in Asia. > > "You've made one of the classic blunders! First is never get involved in > a land war in Asia, the second is never bet against a Cicillian when Death > is on the line!" > - Vicinni, Princes Bride ... [thud] I LOVE quotes from that movie. -- Eric Hodel - hodeleri@seattleu.edu | Customers will come to our Aspiring programmer & FPS minor demi-god. | 'home page' in unbelievable ------------------------------------------/ numbers and find out every- thing we want them to know. --Bill Gates To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 13:48: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7AE9714CEC for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 11193 invoked by alias); 14 Sep 1999 20:47:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19990914204756.11191.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 11180 invoked from network); 14 Sep 1999 20:47:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 14 Sep 1999 20:47:55 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 13:45:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org References: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Sep 99, at 8:09, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Your best bet (really) is to just get an external modem, and be done with > it. Good point. But to be honest, I really don't even need a modem. I have DSL. But the droid wanted to know if he could help me find anything, so I thought I'd give him a challenge. Little did I realize how badly he would fail... :) Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 14: 9:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF471526D; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:09:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17602; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:09:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017573; Tue Sep 14 14:09:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20226; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:09:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek To: walton@nordicrecords.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:09:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990911040458.688.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> from "Dave Walton" at Sep 10, 99 09:02:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's also annoying, because Jordan _must_ know this information > > himself, and is simply refusing to provide it for whatever reason, > > which just eggs Brett further on, with no end in sight. I respect > > both Brett and Jordan, but it seems to me that in this case Brett > > is being less resourceful than I've credited him, while Jordan is > > being more belligerant than I've credited him. Mostly it is my > > mislaid credit that annoys me, FWIW. > > I'm glad someone else feels the same way. As much as I respect > them, I was about ready to chide both of them for lack of any > attempt to resolve the debate when you came in and started > tossing facts around. Thanks. :) > > In their defense, I saw several instances where both sides fired off > knee-jerk responses and clearly did not take the time to read and > understand what the other was saying. So it's probably more a > matter of conditioned responses rather than belligerence or lack of > resourcefulness. > > But it *is* frustrating... Given Jordan's position as cat herder, and his recent posting on the issue, his silence is more understandable from the perspective of avoiding precipitating crisis. I don't think crisis is in the wings, really, since those of us who work for commercial players using FreeBSD typically credit it in the Free software movement, but not in advertising, since the legal caluse doesn't kick in until you mention it by name and/or call out specific features particular to the software. One thing that occurs to me is that Brett could offer to do the legwork on the trademark transfer. This doesn't satisfy Jordan's issue about the dilligent lawyer, though, so unless it's somehow mutually beneficial. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 14:18:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A6614F15 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA283332; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:18:37 -0700 Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpd7gQ9ya; Tue Sep 14 14:18:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20489; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:18:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909142118.OAA20489@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: God, this is scary... To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:18:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Doug@gorean.org, dburr@Powered-By.AC, beep@west.net, jdegroof@ix.netcom.com, sblug-users@syv.com, gousha@apple.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alfred Perlstein" at Sep 11, 99 01:31:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Although the chance to "accidentally" shoot an NT box into deep > space would be quite satisfying. > > The only drawback is some alien race picking it up and coming to > conquer us based on the assumption that we are a technically inept > species and therefore conquest would be trivial. Actually, this wouldn't be much of an issue. When they first get into long distance radio range and attempt to access our computer networks from that distance, the combination of the requirement to upgrade everything before they can get the the default home page in Internet Explorer, and the need to babysit each and every module installation will jack the latency out so far that mankind will be naturally extinct by before they get to orbit and obtain a fast enough link to do any real damage. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 14:41: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94AEE152E3 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:40:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20410; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:40:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020388; Tue Sep 14 14:40:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21495; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:40:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909142140.OAA21495@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. To: francisco@natserv.com Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:40:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dscheidt@enteract.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909120352.XAA24908@vulcan.addy.com> from "Francisco Reyes" at Sep 11, 99 11:50:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 1) It's a commercial product that runs on FreeBSD. 2) See #1. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 14:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C99714CCD for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA84069; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:56:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:06:24 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: <84065.937346173@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How about if the user is given the option of which installer to use? > Use of the new installer would not be a requirement but rather a third- > party option, and clearly labeled as such. Would this work? Assuming that it was very clearly labelled, I can't see any problems with that. Of course, you could also take this to the extreme and cause the entire distribution to be wildly divergent again by adding extra options at every turn, but I'm assuming you're not talking about anything like that. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 15:19:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143CA1523B for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04403; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:18:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004363; Tue Sep 14 15:18:40 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23085; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:18:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909142218.PAA23085@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:18:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Sep 12, 99 09:17:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does it really not meet the OSD from opensource.org? Is DNSafe an addon > that sullies tho openness of the entire BIND package? This whole thing > seems to be a great way to plug something BINDish from the Gnu camp. > > I read slashdot a lot. When it comes to licensing I take it with two > tablespoons of soy sauce. > > Beside, read Ousterhout's commitment to free software. He states that if > he ever closed TCL then the free software community would start with the > last free version and continue development. BIND is also subject to this > threat. > > The scary part is that the NIH people are pushing their ground up > reimplementation, not for the sake of technology, but licensing. > > The B in BIND stands for Berkeley. If BIND ends up closed there is nothing > preventing *BSD from becoming the ersatz custodian of BIND. It is obvious to me that the reason for the license restriction is to obtain a special dispensation for RSA for the use of its US software patents and code licensed thereof in free software. It seems to me that the license restriction is the best outcome you could possibly have expected, in the face of RSA protecting their patent rights, yet allowing DNSSEC and DNSSIG to go forward. It also seems to me that the interface restrictionis the best you could hope for in terms of removing that restriction when the RSA patents expire, and the licensed code replaced with code from a different source, without the RSA license imposed restrictions. People not subject to the RSA patents should feel free to replace the code with free implementations of the RSA patents. Those of us in the US, Canada, and elsewhere, would not have access to this _necessary_ security enhancement to BIND were it not for the license. Note that any GNU distribution that attempts to replace the code and distribute it in the US will face similar patent restrictions, so any Linux distribution that expects to be able to sell into the US should be forewarned that all the sabre-rattling in the world won't break those patents, and won't break those licenses granted while the patent was in force on code written by RSA. Note that it's common to obtain a process patent, and then obtain a license whise term is far in duration of the patent for the embodied process, whether we are talking about process patents on software, or those on chemical engineering, etc.. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 15:31:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FE1152C2 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=mistress) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11R16t-00040v-00; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:31:35 +0000 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 00:31:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Schneiders To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:35 PM 9/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >> It is very likely that many things which were done as part of that > > > distribution would be contributed. But this should not be a requirement. > > > >As long as the component itself was not a requirement to installing > >the product, I'd agree. If you make your hypothetical new installer a > >requirement and now all the users of "FreeBSD HyperBrett" are going > >through a substantially different installation experience and posting > >emails to -questions which say things like "I'm at the default smell > >configuration menu and I can't decide between (M)usty library and > >(D)amp basement, has anyone tried these two smells yet?", well, the > >people who staff those lists are going to be exceedingly confused. > > How about if the user is given the option of which installer to use? > Use of the new installer would not be a requirement but rather a third- > party option, and clearly labeled as such. Would this work? > > --Brett > Just curious: Have you got this fancy installer ready? Why not let us test it? Marc Schneiders marc@oldserver.demon.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 15:50: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750AE1528A for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:46:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:46:28 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , Cc: Subject: RE: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:46:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000001beff02$fb800080$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199909142218.PAA23085@usr09.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is obvious to me that the reason for the license restriction > is to obtain a special dispensation for RSA for the use of its > US software patents and code licensed thereof in free software. I'm quite curious why they simply didn't use other algorithms (such as MD5, DSS and DH) that are free from patent restrictions. As far as I know, there's nothing you can do with the patented encryption algorithms that you can't do without them. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 16:35:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1276714BC9 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA57657; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:10:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:10:55 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure Message-ID: <19990914201055.C56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:09:48AM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:09:48AM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Your best bet (really) is to just get an external modem, and be done with > it. I have a USR Courier V.everything external, and It works on anything > with a serial port. I have plugged it into SGIs and Suns, as well as Macs > and PCs. It's more expensive than the internal, but I don't think the > Courier internal is PCI yet, or if it even will be. If they do make a > Courier internal PCI version, I seriously doubt it will be a LoseModem. Also: * Flashing lights. Much easier to diagnose modem problems when you can see the flashing lights flash when you type "AT" (or not, as the case may be). * Separate power supply. If the modem wedges completely you can reset it without powering off the computer. * Easy to upgrade. You don't have to mess around opening the case to replace it. Death to internal modems! N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 16:37:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC49414BC9 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA56727; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:03:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:03:20 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Rob Garrett Cc: Brett Glass , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Contributors, or lack thereof Message-ID: <19990914200320.A56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990910084750.0479a540@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Rob Garrett on Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 05:29:30AM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sat, Sep 11, 1999 at 05:29:30AM -0400, Rob Garrett wrote: > So pr's now only contribute to source code, theres many areas that > freebsd is lacking in, and as a writer. In particular in those areas they > would greatly appreciate help, I assume this has always been the case. See > somebody needs to WTFM, so others can read it. An article here or there > doesn't cut it, while I'm not anywhere near as accomplished as you are, in > a journalstic sense. I've done quite a bit of what i percieve as real > advocacy. I have written an article for every issue of the FreeBSD zine to > date, helped with several of the articles on the diary. Installed freebsd > for many people, and walked lots of people through freebsd installation. > > No it's not a code thing.. its a mouth. verses work to accomplish thing. I don't quite follow that first paragraph, but just to be absolutely explicit -- use send-pr to submit new documentation! Either submit the doc and/or patches within the PR, or, if it's a large document, include a pointer to the documentation you want to submit as a URL. See for details. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 16:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD6615345; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA94047; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:39:19 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Terry Lambert Cc: walton@nordicrecords.com, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek Message-ID: <19990914163919.A94012@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990911040458.688.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 09:09:15PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 09:09:15PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [ DELETED ] > One thing that occurs to me is that Brett could offer to do the > legwork on the trademark transfer. > > This doesn't satisfy Jordan's issue about the dilligent lawyer, > though, so unless it's somehow mutually beneficial. Now that I think about it... I have a cousin in San Francisco who is an Intellectual Property lawyer. I'll give him a call tonight and see what he has to say about what it would take to transfer a trademark. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 16:40:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E02A14CFF for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA57426; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:09:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:09:05 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Phil Regnauld , gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Re: freebsdcon and Radisson Hotel Reservation. Message-ID: <19990914200905.B56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Cliff Crawford on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:13:10AM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 11:13:10AM -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > On 14 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > | "Reply-To" in connection with mailing lists has been discussed to > | death in various fora. It's a semi-religious issue, though it is my > | impression that most people who have actual experience managing > | mailing lists ("actual experience" as opposed to "strong opinions > | based on what one thinks managing a large mailing list may be like") > | are against it. That includes me. > > Oh, well that explains it then--I've only run *small* mailing lists (~10 > members) and I love Reply-to. :) It depends on your subscribers, and on the nature of the list. I run several mailing lists, some large, some small. Most of the subscribers get used to the lack of Reply-To on the list quite quickly, and actually find it useful (many of them subscribe from one address, post to the list from several, and want to be able to redirect personal replies to an address different from the posted one). The only list which has 'Reply-To' set is the announce list, where any and all replies are redirected to a chat list. Annoyingly, this causes the biggest problems, as people will reply to the announcement with a personal e-mail, and (despite the automatically prepended sig warning that replies will automatically go to the chat list unless they override it) you still get the occasional personal message going to the chat list by mistake. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 16:42:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A91381536F; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id E50BC781; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:42:15 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: Nik Clayton Cc: Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure Message-ID: <19990914164215.B3286@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990914201055.C56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19990914201055.C56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:10:55PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Death to internal modems! s/internal// -Chris -- /* cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org * *"The more I study religions the more I am convinced * * that man never worshipped anything but himself." * * --Sir Richard F. Burton */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 18:30:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334981508B for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id UAA93973; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:30:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA01622; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:50:25 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:50:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Chris Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vinum on the desktop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Chris Dillon wrote: [snip Re: users in general] >the middle of the most important document. They either expect it to >"just work" 100% of the time out of sheer ignorance, or like playing >russian roulette with their data. > >Just my personal experience. :-) These experiences are why there is so little enthusiasm, among many of us, to gain market share by competing for the desktop;) As an aside -- and this is only my opinion, so I don't want to start another mail storm -- I believe that FreeBSD offers an _exceptionally_ attractive package for the IS folks. Every single time I've talked to one who has used Linux for a while, they respond with positive interest. They assume that everything free out there has a desktop/pudwhacker orientation -- and they don't like it. When I explain some of the differences -- their interest rises. 99% of the time, they've never heard of the available *BSDs and assumed that Linux was the only alternative. That's not all bad, though. The fact that the *BSDs haven't been so heavily hyped lends credibility. They've learned to be skeptical of media hype. I wish that some who complain so loudly about our "loss of market share" (damn -- that sounds like a sales droid) would see this rather large, if not spectacular market, and apply their marketing and journalistic skills to define the difference between the point and click kiddies playing real-time audio and the IT professionals. And define how FreeBSD offers a viable alternative to the professional who is more interested in a hot dinner than gaudy screens. We're not an alternative to Linux -- we're an alternative to Solaris and AIX;) Ahh... sorry -- I started to rant. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 18:46:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17ECB14C8C for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA41228; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:46:18 -0700 Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdEIPTaa; Tue Sep 14 18:46:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA09592; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:46:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:46:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Sep 13, 99 04:58:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a long response to some short posting, but I think this discussion needs some business perspective. > Brett isn't raising good points. Brett is raising Brett's points. Nearly > all of Brett's messages hail the impending doom of FreeBSD. Brett, being > an effective writer, demands the attention of others to bring perspective > to the discussion. People like Jordan end up spending time answering > Brett's criticisms regardless of their merit. I think you are mising the boat here. Brett wants increased commercial interest in FreeBSD. Forget what his motives are, and agree on the ends (I am not asking you to agree on the means). Brett is asking the same kind of questions that IBM asked Whistle during the due dilligence phase of acquisition; this is a corporate CYA technique necessary if you intend to engage in modern business. Whistle was able to laugh most of this off, since while the fact that Whistle uses FreeBSD is available for the FreeBSD community to point at (now they can point at "Whistle Communications, Inc., an I.B.M. Company"), Whistle does not shout this from the rooftops in advertising materials; neither does it deny it, if asked. Whistle specifies use of Open Source, and it puts the legal notices in its products UI (even though it doesn't have to), and on its Open Source web site. Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). And for that, he needs to be indemnified against anticompetitive practices. I think the risk of anticompetitive practices from Walnut Creek CDROM is next to NIL, even if Brett were able to push a FreeBSD based distribution Big Time(tm). But I am not one of Brett's backers (not that I've been asked and refused, mind you; I haven't been asked), and his backers will probably need a better "seperation of church and state" to be comfortable. It may not torpedo the deal, but it may skew their risk calculation to the point where Brett can't afford the cost of the money. Do you want to see FreeBSD mentions in advertisements for commercial products in print, radio, television, etc. advertising? Then you need to indemnify the people who are willing to pay for this, to alleviate their risk. I think that it would probably be adequate to get the trademark transferred over to "The FreeBSD Project, Inc.", as Jordan stated has always been the plan. I also think that it is beholden on Brett, to a degree, to aid this process, as possible, potentially including greasing the skids by volunteering effort in this regard, which Jordan has so far been unwilling to treat as a crisis. After all, it may in fact be a crisis from Brett's perspective, but he can hardly ask Jordan to treat it as Jordan's crisis. A written statement by the project as to some minimal guidelines for what constitutes acceptable use of the trademark, such that it will be well known if Brett oversteps the line, both for the benefit of Brett knowing where the line is, as well as for the general community to be able to agree if or when it has been crossed. > Can you imagine if everything Brett wrote made its way to slashdot? The > consequences would be terrible. It is bad enough that our competition is > antagonistic. Business people think remarkably alike. I believe that if this happened, then there will be business cases discussed. There are good business cases for contributing to free software projects, even if you are not required to do so. There are also good reasons why being required to do so is a Bad Thing(tm) from a business perspective. At worst, I believe that people would have to attentively engage in control of the discussion. No one really benefits by keeping the truth hidden, and from a business perspective, most of the concerns about FreeBSD raised by Brett, and others, have sound business resonas as for why they should be concerns. On the whole, I believe the pro-FreeBSD arguments outweigh the cons, and that open and honest communication, without giving people the sense that they are still waiting for the other shoe to drop, is more beneficial than harmful for the long term success of FreeBSD. > I say that Brett's discussion here does FreeBSD harm. Sorry Jason, I have to disagree. Brett has noted social issues, which I, and others, have noted as well. He has also noted business issues (which I have been largely silent upon, but which others have noted as well). This discussion has predominantly been centered on business issues. Issues are agnostic. They only have power in the mind of the person viewing them to be positive or negative. If you see these issues as negative, then _do_ something about them, so that you can easily and authoritatively dismiss them, rather than bemoaning the "harm" they do by the mere fact of them being raised. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 19:28: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AF0156C3 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:27:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA06457; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:26:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_daWGm; Tue Sep 14 19:26:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11579; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:27:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909150227.TAA11579@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Brett Glass Bibliography To: brett@peloton.runet.edu (Brett Taylor) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:26:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, adam@whizkidtech.net, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brett Taylor" at Sep 13, 99 11:53:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a partial bibliography. This is what someone would see looking on Altavista, without referencing Brett's self-published URL's at http://www.ymmv.com/ or http://www.brettglass.com/ (his own sites) or many of the articles in his Sm@rt Reseller column, or his Bugtraq postings. Quotes of Brett Glass, mentioning BSD or FreeBSD: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/pcwk/1511/294365.html http://www8.zdnet.com/pcweek/news/0316/16users.html http://192.160.122.20/lariat.txt http://rama.asiapac.net/freebsd/ja/features.html Articles (including editorials) by Brett Glass, mentioning BSD or FreeBSD: http://www.zdnet.com/talkback/41_23386_97567.html http://www.zdnet.com/talkback/141_30206_125193.html http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/issue/0,4537,349576,00.html http://www.zdnet.com/talkback/41_23386_97567.html List articles (not includeing FreeBSD lists): http://lists.essential.org/am-info/msg00182.html http://www.zdnet.com/tlkbck/comment/22/0,7056,48225-177950,00.html http://www.zdnet.com/tlkbck/comment/22/0,7056,48225-178284,00.html http://www.zdnet.com/tlkbck/comment/22/0,7056,48225-178604,00.html http://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw/boards/FB.chat/4/145.html There is a good comprehensive index of list articles at and around: http://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw/boards/FB.chat/4/index.html It's interesting how even-handed and level headed an index omitting the other side of the conversation makes Brett Look. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 19:58:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (br3-de0.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A901569E for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:58:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Received: from heorot.hamell.hpc1.com (host74-164.iwbc.net [216.228.74.164]) by br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA92752; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 19:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Dave Walton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure In-Reply-To: <19990914204756.11191.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Good point. But to be honest, I really don't even need a modem. I > have DSL. But the droid wanted to know if he could help me find > anything, so I thought I'd give him a challenge. Little did I realize > how badly he would fail... :) I love doing that to the poor guys. (And the occasional girl if she's annoying or not cute. ) "I'm looking for a SCSI CD-Rom, Oh.. you only have IDE. Hmm, how about a IDT 233 chip? You've never heard of IDT? Ok, well I still need an ISA Network card that uses the Dec chipset. What do you mean you only sell 3Com? Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 20: 0:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146F115668 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:00:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id WAA94074; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:00:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA01754; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:48:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:48:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this >to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his >product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is >a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). Hmm... WhiteHat sounds like a good "marketing" angle. That may be the concept that distinguishes us from the rabble. You're arguments are sound. I think, though, that one of the intellectual property rights of the FreeBSD trade mark is how that mark is perceived in the world at large. It isn't clear to me what the ultimate desired perception is likely to be. That the discussion has reached this level suggests that the project has reached the mass where a decision and a clear statement needs to be made. [snip] >Do you want to see FreeBSD mentions in advertisements for commercial >products in print, radio, television, etc. advertising? Then you >need to indemnify the people who are willing to pay for this, to >alleviate their risk. This is the $64,000 question. I don't think the latter follows the first. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 20:16:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C1E14D0C for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23418; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:15:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:15:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org, adam@whizkidtech.net, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett Glass Bibliography In-Reply-To: <199909150227.TAA11579@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Terry, On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > This is a partial bibliography. This is what someone would see > looking on Altavista, without referencing Brett's self-published URL's > at http://www.ymmv.com/ or http://www.brettglass.com/ (his own sites) > or many of the articles in his Sm@rt Reseller column, or his Bugtraq > postings. Thanks for the list. However as I noted previously, I was looking for _recent_ works. I have since been pointed to an aritcle Brett wrote in July of this year, but all of the links (and I think I checked all of them) were from 1998 - not really the stuff of breaking news I can put in the Daemon News news section. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 20:49:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C4C14C05 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA26307; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:49:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbNaOsZ; Tue Sep 14 20:49:01 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15819; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:49:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909150349.UAA15819@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:49:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001beff02$fb800080$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Sep 14, 99 03:46:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It is obvious to me that the reason for the license restriction > > is to obtain a special dispensation for RSA for the use of its > > US software patents and code licensed thereof in free software. > > I'm quite curious why they simply didn't use other algorithms (such as MD5, > DSS and DH) that are free from patent restrictions. As far as I know, > there's nothing you can do with the patented encryption algorithms that you > can't do without them. MD-5 is an RSA patented algorithm, as is MD-4. What you can't do without them is DNSSEC. The DNSTSIG (transaction signatures) is flawed in a number of ways, including that it has a small replay window built into it, and it relies on certificates all the way to the root, and it has been made clear that this will not happen so long as the algorithms are on patent and/or can't be exported. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 21:10:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA4A156C7 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA56362; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:10:28 -0700 Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdStv97a; Tue Sep 14 21:10:27 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA17764; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:10:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909150410.VAA17764@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD To: jdn@acp.qiv.com (Jay Nelson) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:10:25 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Sep 14, 99 09:48:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Do you want to see FreeBSD mentions in advertisements for commercial > >products in print, radio, television, etc. advertising? Then you > >need to indemnify the people who are willing to pay for this, to > >alleviate their risk. > > This is the $64,000 question. I don't think the latter follows the > first. It's nothing immanent, but we (engineering at Whistle) are being asked our opinion on some possible marketing pieces and angles. Julian, Archie, and I are therefore potentially in a postition to get FreeBSD into some I.B.M. marketing materials, but I would bet that the window for this is rather more narrow than it currently appears (i.e. they may not want our opinions for long, once they make up their mind about "tell us about this whole 'Open Source' thingy"). It would be nice if we could point the lawyers at something reassuring so that, were we to try to commit to this type of advocacy, when they came asking for reassurance, it was already there in what passes for black and white. In a general sense, it would be nice to have this ready to go for anyone who went looking; but IBM employs over 1/10th of one percent of the population of the United States, and that's a lot of mindshare going to waste without ready backup for any advocacy we engage in. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 21:26:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632F715033; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:26:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11572; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:26:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914201318.048a7c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:27:32 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , walton@nordicrecords.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Trademark transfer (Was: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com> References: <19990911040458.688.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:09 PM 9/14/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >One thing that occurs to me is that Brett could offer to do the >legwork on the trademark transfer. The transfer of a trademark is actually quite trivial, according to an attorney friend. He says that there's basically one piece of paper to file. >This doesn't satisfy Jordan's issue about the dilligent lawyer, >though, It doesn't affect it, really. The lawyer could act exactly as before; it could even be the same lawyer. The only difference is that FreeBSD, Inc. would legally have control of the licensing of the mark (which it does not now; Walnut Creek could overrule or reverse Jordan on any decision he makes). And the client named on the lawyer's bill would be FreeBSD, Inc. Now, if someone other than FreeBSD, Inc. wanted to pay the bill, I'm sure that the lawyer would be delighted to accept the check. In fact, other backers (ahem!) would be much more likely to help defend a trademark that was owned by FreeBSD, Inc. than one that was held by a direct competitor. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 21:55:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70D51520D for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:55:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11R76U-0001A1-0B for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:55:35 +0000 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus.stade.co.uk [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA14363 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:27:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA11082 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:26:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:26:38 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett or no Brett? (was: Catching up) Message-ID: <19990915052638.E7871@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Rob Garrett on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 12:35:05AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 12:35:05AM -0400, Rob Garrett wrote: > as crazy as it may seem, i think brett may have actually accomplished > somthing for freebsd advocacy by drawing some people closer together, in > order to tell him he's a raving mad lunatic. Who's sole goal in life, > seems to be to irritate jkh. Ah, so Brett is the grain of sand in the FreeBSD oyster? More seriously: I would not want Brett banished from any FreeBSD list. I wish he would write less. To -chat. I've largely stopped reading what he has written, just picking up on some of the more interesting replies. Candidly, and without trying to be deliberately offensive, I generally find Brett-originated threads to be a seldom worth the time invested in ploughing through them. I hate to think what could be achieved if all this time, Brett's included, were spent on something more productive. He is very good with the written word and, my, don't we need a lot of words well written elsewhere in the project. Umm, what was that spell, err, ah yes: I watched The Producers a couple of nights ago. I wonder how a musical about Adolf Hitler would go down nowadays? (8-) -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 21:55:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C9241520D for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11R76c-0001A1-0B; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:55:43 +0000 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus.stade.co.uk [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA14268; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:07:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA08117; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:04:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:04:28 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: Greg Quinlan Cc: aw1@stade.co.uk, Phil Regnauld , Pat Lynch , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More SCO Propaganda Message-ID: <19990915040428.A7871@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <001601befdcb$20e94720$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990913114732.51670@ns.int.ftf.net> <003601befdd1$e2f5bbe0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> <19990914045451.A35002@titus.stade.co.uk> <00d601befe8b$f35b2aa0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <00d601befe8b$f35b2aa0$5214010a@swlct.sthames.nhs.uk>; from Greg Quinlan on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 09:34:24AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RC Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 09:34:24AM +0100, Greg Quinlan wrote: > And if in the past SCO have shown that their own product to be fagile, what > is their support for Open Source likely to be? :)))) Touche! (Translation: An un-rebutable point on Greg's part) -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 22: 0:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65347156C3; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA94941; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:00:20 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , walton@nordicrecords.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trademark transfer (Was: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek) Message-ID: <19990914220020.A94895@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990911040458.688.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19990914201318.048a7c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990914201318.048a7c60@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:27:32PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Sep 14, 1999 at 08:27:32PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:09 PM 9/14/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >One thing that occurs to me is that Brett could offer to do the > >legwork on the trademark transfer. > > The transfer of a trademark is actually quite trivial, according > to an attorney friend. He says that there's basically one piece > of paper to file. > > >This doesn't satisfy Jordan's issue about the dilligent lawyer, > >though, > > It doesn't affect it, really. The lawyer could act exactly as before; > it could even be the same lawyer. The only difference is that FreeBSD, > Inc. would legally have control of the licensing of the mark (which it > does not now; Walnut Creek could overrule or reverse Jordan on any > decision he makes). And the client named on the lawyer's bill would be > FreeBSD, Inc. > > Now, if someone other than FreeBSD, Inc. wanted to pay the bill, I'm > sure that the lawyer would be delighted to accept the check. In fact, > other backers (ahem!) would be much more likely to help defend a trademark > that was owned by FreeBSD, Inc. than one that was held by a direct > competitor. Sounds like you have a lawyer in mind. What is his/her name. Where are they admitted to practice law. What is his or her phone number. Enquiring minds want to know Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 22: 2:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25402156C3 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:02:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11833; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:02:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914223309.0489dc40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:02:13 -0600 To: Marc Schneiders From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jonathan Lemon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990914140446.04b44100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:31 AM 9/15/99 +0200, Marc Schneiders wrote: >Just curious: Have you got this fancy installer ready? I have a prototype installer in Perl that configures a system the way I do for most of my clients. It does most of what sysinstall does and many things it doesn't. It's still not everything I want it to be, though. Even precompiled, it takes up nearlly a whole 'nother floppy, which you have to mount after the system has booted. The UI needs a lot of polishing. On the plus side, it's bulletproofable (I won't claim that it's bulletproof, but rather that it has hooks to make it so), and almost TOO powerful and flexible for the job. In short, it's at the "OK, you've proven the concept; now tear it up and rewrite it correctly from scratch" stage. For which I'd like to bring in another programmer or two. This is only one of the things I'd like to do in a new distribution. There are lots of things I'd like to bundle and add, some of which would be licensed and others of which would be built. But I really need the product name to say that, at bottom, it's FreeBSD with some stuff I (and others) licensed or wrote. That's why the whole trademark thing. And even if I pared it down, the hyperinstaller, plus some of the added stuff, would likely push some of the material that's now on the first CD-ROM off the disk. (It'd go onto another disk, or -- for economy's sake -- onto the Net for retrieval if the user desired it.) But I don't see why this should be a problem as long as everything is accessible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 14 22:10:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CE0156EF; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 22:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11890; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:10:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990914230242.048a6f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 23:10:01 -0600 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Trademark transfer (Was: ANSWER: "FreeBSD" registered by Walnut Creek) Cc: Terry Lambert , walton@nordicrecords.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990914220020.A94895@mooseriver.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990914201318.048a7c60@localhost> <19990911040458.688.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <199909142109.OAA20226@usr09.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19990914201318.048a7c60@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:00 PM 9/14/99 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >Sounds like you have a lawyer in mind. What is his/her name. Where are they >admitted to practice law. What is his or her phone number. Actually, the easiest law firm for FreeBSD, Inc. to use is the one that did the trademark in the first place: McCutchen, Doyle, Brown, and Ehersen. See http://www.mccutchen.com/ --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4728614DFC for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28422 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909150800.BAA28422@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1: 0: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5881014E05 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28409 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909150800.BAA28409@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This is posted every 1st and 15th of the month. Josef (jgrosch@MooseRiver.com) -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1: 0:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moose.mooseriver.com (mooseriver.com [209.133.53.192]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E59414DBD for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@moose.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by moose.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA28396 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <199909150800.BAA28396@moose.mooseriver.com> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. Josef -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.1 1999/09/01 07:54:32 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1:42:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A9A14BD7 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24943; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:42:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: francisco@natserv.com, dscheidt@enteract.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Running email servers from home the easy way. References: <199909142140.OAA21495@usr09.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 1999 10:42:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:40:15 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > 1) It's a commercial product that runs on FreeBSD. > 2) See #1. Nononono. #1 is "There will be no fairings". DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1:48: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0263514BD7; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24959; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:48:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Nik Clayton Cc: Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure References: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990914201055.C56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 1999 10:48:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: Nik Clayton's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:10:55 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton writes: > * Flashing lights. Much easier to diagnose modem problems when you can > see the flashing lights flash when you type "AT" (or not, as the case > may be). The real reason for wanting flashing lights, of course, is that they look cool. Also, internal modems usually don't have a speaker, so they don't make cool noises during handshake either. What I miss most now that I've switched to ISDN, though, is the satisfying "click" of the relay whenever you dial or hang up. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1:50:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCADC14D86; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA26219; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:49:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA42417; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:54:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990915105401.62891@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:54:01 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Nik Clayton , Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure References: <19990914024852.9402.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> <19990914201055.C56201@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 10:48:01AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > What I miss most now that I've switched to ISDN, though, is the > satisfying "click" of the relay whenever you dial or hang up. That's on purpose -- so the telco can sneakily charge you extra. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1:51:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791D514D86; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13782; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:21:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990915182101:6802=_"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:21:01 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dave Walton , Jamie Bowden , Nik Clayton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is in MIME format --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990915182101:6802=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 15-Sep-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The real reason for wanting flashing lights, of course, is that they > look cool. > Also, internal modems usually don't have a speaker, so they don't make > cool noises during handshake either. Hmm.. the ones I had did have a speaker.. The thing which annoyed me was the inability to pick the modem up and drop kick it across the room when it wasn't working. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990915182101:6802=_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQCVAwUBN99d9VbYW/HEoF9pAQGdFQQAtnesiFAuKxAC//Oo4ZtC5E08Sd3g1oGa cEy85+lJXcGhBwWHQJ3Nm2ylEeUiFABp7aa+9oFWaMKM0VOw4BLvCEmJIHDRx/Ts GdsmGBHR5d86NGjsVhuHFJTuWqdeyuBCtckSA2sKlC1Om72G2B/6p7/RjxMnFG9W OjlUjqyMHdw= =P1qJ -----END PGP MESSAGE----- --_=XFMail.1.3.p0.FreeBSD:990915182101:6802=_-- End of MIME message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 1:53:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C64214DBF for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24996; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:53:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Sep 1999 10:53:07 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:46:13 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this > to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his > product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is > a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 2: 5:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97761501F for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA27702; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:04:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id LAA42552; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:09:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:09:29 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 10:53:07AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this > > to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his > > product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is > > a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). > > Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. SmurfBSD ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 2:41:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl (schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl [130.89.238.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF55B1508A for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 02:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeroen@vangelderen.org) Received: from wit395301.student.utwente.nl ([130.89.235.121]:36363 "EHLO vangelderen.org" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by schuimpje.snt.utwente.nl with ESMTP id ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:41:03 +0200 Message-ID: <37DF6966.81B5B9AB@vangelderen.org> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:39:50 +0200 From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always References: <199909150349.UAA15819@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > It is obvious to me that the reason for the license restriction > > > is to obtain a special dispensation for RSA for the use of its > > > US software patents and code licensed thereof in free software. > > > > I'm quite curious why they simply didn't use other algorithms > > (such as MD5, DSS and DH) that are free from patent restrictions. > > As far as I know, there's nothing you can do with the patented > > encryption algorithms that you can't do without them. > > MD-5 is an RSA patented algorithm, as is MD-4. "The MD5 algorithm is being placed in the public domain for review and possible adoption as a standard." "The MD4 algorithm is being placed in the public domain for review and possible adoption as a standard." Even if they were patented, one could use SHA(-1) or RIPEMD-160 or Tiger. Cheers, Jeroen -- Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 3: 7: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B2F14A04 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.0.1) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:06:44 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (10.100.35.12 [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id SNZVMPDF; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:05:36 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11RBxj-000LkP-00; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:06:51 +0100 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:06:51 +0100 To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990915110650.B83431@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> From: Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 11:09:29AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this > > > to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his > > > product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is > > > a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). > > > > Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. > > SmurfBSD ? White hats, blue skin. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator "vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt." -- Anon. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 3:15: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B265514A04 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA03925; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:13:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA42999; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:18:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990915121853.23723@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:18:53 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990915110650.B83431@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990915110650.B83431@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk>; from Dominic Mitchell on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 11:06:51AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell writes: > > > > > > Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. > > > > SmurfBSD ? > > White hats, blue skin. Darn. Knew I should check my colorchart. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 3:58:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570EA14EF4 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 03:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA31606; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:28:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990915121853.23723@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:27:40 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" To: Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu, Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Dominic Mitchell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Sep-99 Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > SmurfBSD ? > > White hats, blue skin. > Darn. Knew I should check my colorchart. Bah, just call it WhiteHat BSD, Smurf release. :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 4: 7:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79D9150AC for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 04:07:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id NAA08310; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:06:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id NAA43277; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:11:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990915131111.59991@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:11:11 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "Daniel J. O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jcwells@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD References: <19990915121853.23723@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel J. O'Connor on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 08:27:40PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel J. O'Connor writes: > > On 15-Sep-99 Phil Regnauld wrote: > > > > SmurfBSD ? > > > White hats, blue skin. > > Darn. Knew I should check my colorchart. > > Bah, just call it WhiteHat BSD, Smurf release. :) I guess PicoBSD already occupies that slot :-) -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 5:16:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B768714EBA for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5CC7A425E; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 516079C39; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:16:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: :Terry Lambert writes: :> Brett wants a more active commercial advocacy than this. For this :> to be possible, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that his :> product uses FreeBSD (perhaps even that his putative product is :> a FreeBSD distribution: a "WhiteHat" to Linux's "RedHat"). :Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. Black. If anyone came out with a BlackHat distro of anything, I'd buy at least one just to have it. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 5:45:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 24C8614E74 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 88277 invoked from network); 15 Sep 1999 12:44:50 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 15 Sep 1999 12:44:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:44:50 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Nik Clayton , Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Nik Clayton writes: > > * Flashing lights. Much easier to diagnose modem problems when you can > > see the flashing lights flash when you type "AT" (or not, as the case > > may be). > > The real reason for wanting flashing lights, of course, is that they > look cool. Never underestimate the importance of blinkenlights. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 6: 0: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86ABA15164; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id OAA21951; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:58:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id PAA43890; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:03:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990915150328.21649@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:03:28 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Scheidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Nik Clayton , Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 07:44:50AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > > The real reason for wanting flashing lights, of course, is that they > > look cool. > > Never underestimate the importance of blinkenlights. > Achtung! Alles touristen und non-technischen lookens peeper! Das machinen control is nicht for geerfingerpoken und mittengrabben! Oderwise is easy schnappen der spriggenwerk, blownfuse und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Des machine is diggen by experten only. Is nicht fur gerverken by das dumnkofen. Das rubberneken sightseenen keepen das cottenpicken hands in des pockets! Nicht moven propen. So relaxen und watchen das blinken light. -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 9: 7:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8D115505 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16225; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:50:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:50:27 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld From: Brett Glass Subject: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:09 AM 9/15/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > Blue. It would definitely have to be blue. > > SmurfBSD ? I'd want a more diverse user community. All the smurfs are exactly the same color, and there's only one Smurfette. Besides, the blue smurfs wear white hats. At 08:16 AM 9/15/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > Black. If anyone came out with a BlackHat distro of anything, I'd buy at > least one just to have it. The hat would probably depend on the target market. We could have: Market Version ------ ------- Western US StetsonBSD (5- and 10-gallon versions) Wisconsin CheeseBSD India TurbanBSD France ChapeauBSD Israel YarmulkeBSD Shriners FezBSD Beekeepers BeeBonnetBSD? NASA HelmetBSD (Radiation-hardened) Churches/Clergy HaloBSD (The OpenBSD daemon already wears a halo, actually, thanks to Gale Pedowitz.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 10:44:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0FA1515F for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA02643; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:44:03 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Message-ID: <19990915104403.A2472@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <199909150146.SAA09592@usr06.primenet.com> <19990915110929.31078@ns.int.ftf.net> <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 09:50:27AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 09:50:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Churches/Clergy HaloBSD (The OpenBSD daemon already wears > a halo, actually, thanks to Gale Pedowitz.) Or, for a small but influential market, FunnyPopeHatBSD. -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 14:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A0F14F44 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21118; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:50:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:50:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: Brett Glass Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: | Market Version | ------ ------- | Western US StetsonBSD (5- and 10-gallon versions) | Wisconsin CheeseBSD | India TurbanBSD | France ChapeauBSD | Israel YarmulkeBSD | Shriners FezBSD | Beekeepers BeeBonnetBSD? | NASA HelmetBSD (Radiation-hardened) | Churches/Clergy HaloBSD (The OpenBSD daemon already wears | a halo, actually, thanks to Gale Pedowitz.) Southern US Trucker'sCapBSD (Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and another beer" printed on the front. ;-) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 15: 4:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F71814F86 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from mailrelay.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21261; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu) by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.05.24.18.28.p7) with ESMTP id <0FI40079TFYIWN@gkar.cc.vt.edu>; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 18:04:01 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercia In-reply-to: To: Cliff Crawford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Phil Regnauld , Brett Glass Message-id: <0FI40079UFYIWN@gkar.cc.vt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Sep-99 Cliff Crawford wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >| Market Version >| ------ ------- >| Western US StetsonBSD (5- and 10-gallon versions) >| Wisconsin CheeseBSD >| India TurbanBSD >| France ChapeauBSD >| Israel YarmulkeBSD >| Shriners FezBSD >| Beekeepers BeeBonnetBSD? >| NASA HelmetBSD (Radiation-hardened) >| Churches/Clergy HaloBSD (The OpenBSD daemon already wears >| a halo, actually, thanks to Gale Pedowitz.) > > Southern US Trucker'sCapBSD or Southern US NascarBSD With a Dale Earnhardt signature on the box. :) --- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 15:39:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B021814FB0 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA25801; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:37:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:37:48 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Brett Glass , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Message-ID: <19990915173748.B16305@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Cliff Crawford on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 05:50:19PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 05:50:19PM -0400, a little birdie told me that Cliff Crawford remarked > > (Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and > the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and > another beer" printed on the front. ;-) I will pay $20 for one of these. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 16: 1: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAD6153B8 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:01:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20742; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:00:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990915165620.048d2a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:59:35 -0600 To: Cliff Crawford From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:50 PM 9/15/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: >(Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and >the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and >another beer" printed on the front. ;-) And a silhouette of a skinny young female daemon on the mud flaps. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 16:29:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A3915341 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM) Received: from wandrews (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13113; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:35:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990915192913.007b9570@mail.psn.net> X-Sender: andrews@mail.psn.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:29:13 -0400 To: Brett Glass From: Will Andrews Subject: Re: BPF on in 3.3-RC GENERIC kernel Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990915164546.048d0100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:52 PM 9/15/99 -0600, you wrote: >Was doing some testing on the latest release candidate of FreeBSD 3.3, and >noted that the Berkeley Packet Filter was enabled in the GENERIC kernel. Is >this a good idea? See freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG mailing list archives. Recently, there was a rather large argument over whether this should be included or not. The gist of it is that since DHCP has been deemed necessary to be enabled in GENERIC, bpf is also necessary. Please don't start up the thread here, too. Just go read the -security archives. I promise you, this was discussed to DEATH there. :-) --Will To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 17: 3:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7EF14C0E for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 17:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=mistress) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11RP13-0002kP-00; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:03:09 +0000 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 02:02:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Schneiders To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990915165620.048d2a70@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:50 PM 9/15/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > >(Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and > >the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and > >another beer" printed on the front. ;-) > > And a silhouette of a skinny young female daemon on the mud flaps. ;-) > > --Brett > Young, sure! But why skinny? Aren't we still talking about this distribution with extra's? Commercial extra's moreover? Marc -- Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 20:38:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD80B152B5 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA50340; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:37:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:37:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Brett Glass , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19990915173748.B16305@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: | > (Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and | > the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and | > another beer" printed on the front. ;-) | | I will pay $20 for one of these. Really? Hmm....is anyone else interested? :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 21:10:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F34158B8 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id GAA05893; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:08:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id GAA48173; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:13:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990916061328.37935@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 06:13:28 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Cliff Crawford Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) References: <4.2.0.58.19990915093230.048ba7b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Cliff Crawford on Wed, Sep 15, 1999 at 05:50:19PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford writes: > | NASA HelmetBSD (Radiation-hardened) > | Churches/Clergy HaloBSD (The OpenBSD daemon already wears > | a halo, actually, thanks to Gale Pedowitz.) > > Southern US Trucker'sCapBSD Denmark VikingBSD (horns and all -- Poul-Henning might have one). -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 21:38:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEA914A08 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkeysler@nwlink.com) Received: from fargo.caldonia.net (ip40.usr7.usw.du.nwlink.com [209.20.138.40]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12561; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:40:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Keeler X-Sender: kkeysler@fargo.caldonia.net To: Cliff Crawford Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Brett Glass , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The 1,000 hats of Bartholemew BSD (Was: Good News! Commercial Backing For FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Cliff Crawford wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > | > (Just picture it..a big red and white trucker's cap with the daemon logo and > | > the words "There are only three things I need in life: a beer, FreeBSD, and > | > another beer" printed on the front. ;-) > | > | I will pay $20 for one of these. > > Really? Hmm....is anyone else interested? :) > I'd buy one of those. E=mc^2 student 1 each Ken Keeler "Ooooh, they have the Internet on computers now." - Homer J. Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 22:10:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law-f300.hotmail.com [209.185.130.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F3AE214A08 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:10:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skalir@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 10096 invoked by uid 0); 16 Sep 1999 05:10:37 -0000 Message-ID: <19990916051037.10095.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 166.62.215.60 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:10:37 PDT X-Originating-IP: [166.62.215.60] From: "skalir scalar" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Chat and Help Network [was UnixHelpNetwork] update Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 21:10:37 AKDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org People, I have sent out emails before talking/speaking about a Unix Help Network, We are now up and running! We have changed names, because what want to offer help channels the such like, including infobots, intergrading infomation into FAQ's on a ftp/www site, and so on! And instead of just a 'Help' Network, We can have people come on and just chat also, but help is the main thing going here. Not many people on our network right now, If you wish to get on and help out, or you are interested in hosting a server or - hosting 'services' for us, please reply to this email or get on our current small irc network (irc.cahn.net port 6667) and get on #CAHN (main channel) and speak to 'Robertsog' or 'skalir'. Me and Robertsog run the network basically. We are looking for users, helpers, servers, irc opers, programmers, etc, etc. If you would like to be apart of this really quite neat network, just get on and speak with 'Robertsog' or 'skalir' and/or reply to this email. We are *FULLY* open to suggestions, and or comments. skalir scalar CAHN Network Admin skalir@hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 15 23:34:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tch.org (tacostand.tch.org [199.74.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A136014BE4 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser@tch.org) Received: (from ser@localhost) by tch.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA81668; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:34:13 -0700 From: Steve Rubin To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Richard Stevens Message-ID: <19990915233412.A81664@tch.org> References: <19990904123326.A16716@tch.org> <19990908164929.A45996@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990908164929.A45996@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from Oscar Bonilla on Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 04:49:29PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 04:49:29PM -0600, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 12:33:26PM -0700, Steve Rubin wrote: > > I apologize if this was discussed elsewhere.. > > > > STEVENS, W. Richard, noted author of computer books died on > > September 1. > > How did he died? Can we send compliments online? Not sure (either question). -- Steve Rubin, Packet Warrior - ser@tch.org - http://www.tch.org/~ser/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 7: 1:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE31F1546D for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10115; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:59:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Narvi Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Julian Elischer , Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbus/bus/space info at FBSDcon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org definitely, since I have a bunch of students at Stevens who would like to help with this effort, and unfortunately, unlike planned, I have been away from work too long to leave again in October :/ SO I will not be at FreeBSDcon :/ (unless a miracle happens). SO Al, take notes for me ? ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 14 Sep 1999, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > > yo guys, are we going to have a lecture on this > > > new-bus/bus-space/new-config/etc/etc. at the FreeBSDcon? > > > > > > This stuff is pretty hard to digest in one hit and it would be great if > > > there was some introductory talk to get us headded int eh right > > > direction.. > > > > At lease one more person interested. > > > > Would be extremely nice if say at least the lecture notes showed up > later somewhere for those who cannot come... > > > -Alfred > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 7:29:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFB914DED for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 07:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10319 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:29:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: funny BSD road stories Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Remember the person who got asked about her FreeBSD shirt in Texas or somewhere backwards like that? well we've got a similar story. LOrraine and I are on a road trip vacation, we drove out to Kingman AZ, by way of Boulder CO (to visit a friend there) ON our way back, by way of Rt. 40 to Rt. 25 to Boulder. We were at a truck stop in AZ btwn Flagstaff and Gallup, NM when both of us, wearing our geeks shirts (FreeBSD shirt on Lorraine, with our cute little CHucky) were getting some weird stares. All of a sudden Lorraine hears on of the women behind the counter say "Well, they're definitely not Mormons." ROTFLMAO! -Pat FreeBSD - The only OS banned in Utah ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 9:53:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC63A15460 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29584; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:53:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:52:01 -0600 To: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I seem to recall a story, posted to the Net long ago, about a couple with daemon shirts who were asked to leave a diner in western Texas by some rather belligerent locals. Why? because they had images of the "Prince of Darkness" on their shirts. Anyone have a copy of this classic? --Brett At 10:29 AM 9/16/99 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: >Remember the person who got asked about her FreeBSD shirt in Texas or >somewhere backwards like that? well we've got a similar story. > >LOrraine and I are on a road trip vacation, we drove out to Kingman AZ, by >way of Boulder CO (to visit a friend there) ON our way back, by way of >Rt. 40 to Rt. 25 to Boulder. We were at a truck stop in AZ btwn Flagstaff >and Gallup, NM when both of us, wearing our geeks shirts (FreeBSD shirt on >Lorraine, with our cute little CHucky) were getting some weird stares. > >All of a sudden Lorraine hears on of the women behind the counter say >"Well, they're definitely not Mormons." > >ROTFLMAO! > >-Pat > > >FreeBSD - The only OS banned in Utah > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net >Systems Administrator Rush Networking >___________________________________________________________________________ > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 9:58:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C07FC15460 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA90944; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E121A9.E084A68E@owp.csus.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:58:17 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > > Remember the person who got asked about her FreeBSD shirt in Texas or > somewhere backwards like that? well we've got a similar story. > > LOrraine and I are on a road trip vacation, we drove out to Kingman AZ, by > way of Boulder CO (to visit a friend there) ON our way back, by way of > Rt. 40 to Rt. 25 to Boulder. We were at a truck stop in AZ btwn Flagstaff > and Gallup, NM when both of us, wearing our geeks shirts (FreeBSD shirt on > Lorraine, with our cute little CHucky) were getting some weird stares. > > All of a sudden Lorraine hears on of the women behind the counter say > "Well, they're definitely not Mormons." > > ROTFLMAO! Hehehehehehe. Does this mean Mormon FreeBSD users have to give up thier FBSD Daemon T Shirts ? :-) > > -Pat > > FreeBSD - The only OS banned in Utah -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 10:38:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5612515166 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24652; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:34:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:34:40 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: Brett Glass Cc: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories Message-ID: <19990916113440.A24640@fisicc-ufm.edu> References: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 10:52:01AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > I seem to recall a story, posted to the Net long ago, about a couple > with daemon shirts who were asked to leave a diner in western Texas > by some rather belligerent locals. Why? because they had images of the > "Prince of Darkness" on their shirts. Anyone have a copy of this classic? > It's on Greg's Book. I'll see if I have a link to an online copy... Regards, -Oscar -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 10:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D49152A5 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00537; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:55:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916115149.048e93e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:53:48 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: LinuxChix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2335159,00.html Any female BSD users out there want to start a group of "Daemon Dames?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 11: 7:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand4.global.net.uk (sand4.global.net.uk [194.126.80.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3A9156F7 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p9fs12a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.236.160] helo=marder-1.) by sand4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11Rfvr-000537-00; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:06:56 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA01220; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:58:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:58:22 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: Brett Glass , Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories Message-ID: <19990916185822.A282@marder-1> References: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> <19990916113440.A24640@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990916113440.A24640@fisicc-ufm.edu>; from Oscar Bonilla on Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:34:40AM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:34:40AM -0600, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 10:52:01AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > I seem to recall a story, posted to the Net long ago, about a couple > > with daemon shirts who were asked to leave a diner in western Texas > > by some rather belligerent locals. Why? because they had images of the > > "Prince of Darkness" on their shirts. Anyone have a copy of this classic? > > > > It's on Greg's Book. I'll see if I have a link to an online copy... > Newsgroups: alt.humor.best-of-usenet Subject: [comp.org.usenix] A Great Daemon Story From: Rob Kolstad Newsgroups: comp.org.usenix Subject: A Great Daemon Story Linda Branagan is an expert on daemons. She has a T-shirt that sports the daemon in tennis shoes that appears on the cover of the 4.3BSD manuals and The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD UNIX Operating System by S. Leffler, M. McKusick, M. Karels, J. Quarterman, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Reading, MA 1989. She tells the following story about wearing the 4.3BSD daemon T-shirt: Last week I walked into a local ``home style cookin' restaurant/watering hole'' in Texas to pick up a take-out order. I spoke briefly to the waitress behind the counter, who told me my order would be done in a few minutes. So, while I was busy gazing at the farm implements hanging on the walls, I was approached by two ``natives.'' These guys might just be the original Texas rednecks. ``Pardon us, ma'am. Mind if we ask you a question?'' Well, people keep telling me that Texans are real friendly, so I nodded. ``Are you a Satanist?'' Well, at least they didn't ask me if I liked to party. ``Uh, no, I can't say that I am.'' ``Gee, ma'am. Are you sure about that?'' they asked. I put on my biggest, brightest Dallas Cowboys cheerleader smile and said, ``No, I'm positive. The closest I've ever come to Satanism is watching Geraldo.'' ``Hmmm. Interesting. See, we was just wondering why it is you have the lord of darkness on your chest there.'' I was this close to slapping one of them and causing a scene--then I stopped and noticed the shirt I happened to be wearing that day. Sure enough, it had a picture of a small, devilish-looking creature that has for some time now been associated with a certain operating system. In this particular represen- tation, the creature was wearing sneakers. They continued: ``See, ma'am, we don't exactly appreciate it when people show off pictures of the devil. Especially when he's lookin' so friendly.'' These idiots sounded terrifyingly serious. Me: ``Oh, well, see, this isn't really the devil, it's just, well, it's sort of a mascot. Native: ``And what kind of football team has the devil as a mascot?'' Me: ``Oh, it's not a team. It's an operating--uh, a kind of computer.'' I figured that an ATM machine was about as much technology as these guys could handle, and I knew that if I so much as uttered the word ``UNIX'' I would only make things worse. Native: ``Where does this satanical computer come from?'' Me: ``California. And there's nothing satanical about it really.'' Somewhere along the line here, the waitress noticed my predicament--but these guys probably outweighed her by 600 pounds, so all she did was look at me sympathetically and run off into the kitchen. Native: ``Ma'am, I think you're lying. And we'd appreciate it if you'd leave the premises now.'' Fortunately, the waitress returned that very instant with my order, and they agreed that it would be okay for me to actually pay for my food before I left. While I was at the cash register, they amused themselves by talking to each other. Native #1: ``Do you think the police know about these devil computers?'' Native #2: ``If they come from California, then the FBI oughta know about 'em.'' They escorted me to the door. I tried one last time: ``You're really blowing this all out of proportion. A lot of people use this `kind of computers.' Universities, researchers, businesses. They're actually very useful.'' Big, big, big mistake. I should have guessed at what came next. Native: ``Does the government use these devil computers?'' Me: ``Yes.'' Another big boo-boo. Native: ``And does the government pay for 'em? With our tax dollars?'' I decided that it was time to jump ship. Me: ``No. Nope. Not at all. Your tax dollars never entered the picture at all. I promise. No sir, not a penny. Our good Christian congressmen would never let something like that happen. Nope. Never. Bye.'' Texas. What a country. > Regards, > > -Oscar > > -- > For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 12:23:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84267150B9 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from scotty.masternet.it (modem10.masternet.it [194.184.65.20]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20815; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:22:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-ID: <37E14407.D7E6D11F@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:24:55 +0200 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Reply-To: gmarco@giovannelli.it X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org, brett@lariat.org Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > I seem to recall a story, posted to the Net long ago, about a couple > with daemon shirts who were asked to leave a diner in western Texas > by some rather belligerent locals. Why? because they had images of the > "Prince of Darkness" on their shirts. Anyone have a copy of this classic? It should be also in the book of Greg (The complete FreeBSD) if I remember well... Ask Greg to know where he got it ... -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 13: 9:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (stumpy.dannyland.org [209.157.133.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DB514F4D for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: by stumpy.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6A2173CF0; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:09:36 -0700 From: dannyman To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies Message-ID: <19990916130935.B12399@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 10:51:24PM +0000 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 12, 1999 at 10:51:24PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > In a fit of creative writing I coined this term. > > I kind of like it. Too much. We use "Freeby" and "Freebs" around here. -d -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 13:21: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E23153F4 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA143950; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:20:49 -0700 Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpd2hfO7a; Thu Sep 16 13:20:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13171; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:20:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909162020.NAA13171@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: LinuxChix To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:20:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916115149.048e93e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Sep 16, 99 11:53:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2335159,00.html > > Any female BSD users out there want to start a group of "Daemon Dames?" Or "BSD Babes". It's even sex neutral (at least the way my sister uses it to point out various men to her friends). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 13:42:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F21514BCA for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfassad@domain.com.br) Received: from domain.com.br (200.196.135.254) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.0.024) for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:44:09 -0300 Message-ID: <37E12D94.3008049A@domain.com.br> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:49:09 +0000 From: Joao Assad X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: off-topic : optic fiber problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all! Im having some problems here trying to connect two networks with an optic fiber cable... Its a very simple connection.... I have a 400ft optic cable with 1 100-BaseFX to 100-BaseTX trasceiver in each end. then I connect 1 computer in each transceiver and try to send some data... now, whats happening is that little packets go through just fine but when I try to send big packets (like 4kb) I have over 25% packet loss... I'have tryed to send a 10mb file through FTP and ended up with 6kb/sec. any idea about what might be causing that ? thanks a lot. -- _____ _ _ _ _ _ | __ \ ___ | \_/ | ___ (_)| \ | | João Assad | | \ |/ _ \| _ |/ _ \| || \| | Depto de Operações | |__/ | <_> | | | | <_| | || |\ | ---------PSINet--------- |_____/ \___/|_| |_|\__,_|_||_| \_| http://www.domain.com.br To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 14:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365B014D33 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA17810; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:15:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:15:18 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: dannyman Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies Message-ID: <19990916161518.K16305@futuresouth.com> References: <19990916130935.B12399@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990916130935.B12399@stumpy.dannyland.org>; from dannyman on Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 01:09:36PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 01:09:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me that dannyman remarked > > We use "Freeby" and "Freebs" around here. I'm now having a truely horrifying mental image of a cross between a daemon and a Furby hovering over my while I sleep. Let's not and say we did. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 14:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from barra.domain.com.br (barra.domain.com.br [200.196.128.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA4B14E02 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfassad@domain.com.br) Received: from domain.com.br (200.196.135.254) by barra.domain.com.br (NPlex 4.0.024); Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:17:41 -0300 Message-ID: <37E13571.10E1323E@domain.com.br> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:22:41 +0000 From: Joao Assad X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: off-topic : optic fiber problem References: <000001bf0084$e897d190$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > 4Kb is awfully large for an Ethernet packet. It can cause all kinds of > problems for your network stack. Why not set an MTU of 1500 bytes? > > DS > my MTU is 1500 right now and I still have over 25% of packet loss. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Joao Assad > > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 10:49 AM > > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: off-topic : optic fiber problem > > > > > > Hello all! > > > > Im having some problems here trying to connect two networks with an > > optic fiber cable... > > Its a very simple connection.... I have a 400ft optic cable with 1 > > 100-BaseFX to 100-BaseTX > > trasceiver in each end. then I connect 1 computer in each transceiver > > and try to send some data... > > now, whats happening is that little packets go through just fine but > > when I try to send big > > packets (like 4kb) I have over 25% packet loss... I'have tryed to send a > > 10mb file through > > FTP and ended up with 6kb/sec. > > > > any idea about what might be causing that ? > > > > thanks a lot. > > > > -- > > _____ _ _ _ _ _ > > | __ \ ___ | \_/ | ___ (_)| \ | | João Assad > > | | \ |/ _ \| _ |/ _ \| || \| | Depto de Operações > > | |__/ | <_> | | | | <_| | || |\ | ---------PSINet--------- > > |_____/ \___/|_| |_|\__,_|_||_| \_| http://www.domain.com.br > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- _____ _ _ _ _ _ | __ \ ___ | \_/ | ___ (_)| \ | | João Assad | | \ |/ _ \| _ |/ _ \| || \| | Depto de Operações | |__/ | <_> | | | | <_| | || |\ | ---------PSINet--------- |_____/ \___/|_| |_|\__,_|_||_| \_| http://www.domain.com.br To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 14:19: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0530D15129 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02699; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:18:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916151642.048e3170@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:17:15 -0600 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories In-Reply-To: <37E1230B.1BBC958D@scotty.masternet.it> References: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:04 PM 9/16/99 +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >It should be also in the book of Greg (The complete FreeBSD) if I >remember well... Maybe Greg included it, but it's YEARS older than his book. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 14:36:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE538157A3 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18180 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E162EC.E008C293@aracnet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:36:44 -0700 From: "D.M.P." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: US Encryption Export press-release on C-SPAN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did anyone watch the press conference on C-SPAN today regarding US export control of strong encryption? I didn't catch all of it, but what I did catch was very interesting. A guy I would assume to be Richard Armey stated that 56- and 64-bit encryption would be "de-controlled." I take that to mean they're raising the "exportable encryption" bar to 64 bits. He also said that the licensing for export of stronger encryption would be/has been changed to a "more business-oriented model." Later in the press-conference, I believe it was Janet Reno who stated that the US government has now officially recognized the use of strong encryption by "legitimate residents" for personal security. In other words, the US government just updated their encryption by a decade or three. (For those of you who don't watch TV, or live outside the US, C-SPAN is a cable channel dedicated to covering US Congressional proceedings and press-conferences held by the US government.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 15:48:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A07E14EA5 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27860; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E17393.DA5FE1F2@aracnet.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:47:47 -0700 From: "D.M.P." X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LinuxChix References: <199909162020.NAA13171@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: >> See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2335159,00.html >> >> Any female BSD users out there want to start a group of "Daemon Dames?" > > Or "BSD Babes". I guess a "Babes of BSD" calendar is out of the question? Perhaps in suggestive poses with daemon plushies and snapshot CDs? --- DMP, who's dirty little mind is probably better off coming up with ways to make a CLI disclose error information in ways conducive to innuendo and other forms of adolescent humour. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 16:30:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C170F154A7; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id SAA99193; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:30:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA01126; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:29:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Rocking Globe article... (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An interesting article that reinforces my notion that we are doing things right;) -- Jay ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:18:04 -0400 From: Mason Loring Bliss To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Subject: Rocking Globe article... Cool, cool, cool... http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/259/business/Even_better_than_Linux+.shtml -- Mason Loring Bliss mason@acheron.middleboro.ma.us They also surf who awake ? sleep : dream; http://acheron.ne.mediaone.net only stand on waves. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 17:16:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AAA41545B for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04288 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:16:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916181224.00beff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:14:39 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: UNIX/Perl jobs available Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A new company in Boulder, CO is looking to hire several people who are skilled in Perl programming, UNIX programming and UNIX system administration. They'd like full-timers, ideally, though they may be willing to take consultants who will commit to a long-term relationship. E-mail if interested. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 18:37:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zone.unixshell.com (zone.syracuse.net [209.2.141.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D626414CA9 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Received: from localhost (ze5yr@localhost) by zone.unixshell.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA52750; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:37:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ze5yr@zone.unixshell.com) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 21:37:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Cliff Crawford To: "D.M.P." Cc: Terry Lambert , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LinuxChix In-Reply-To: <37E17393.DA5FE1F2@aracnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, D.M.P. wrote: | Terry Lambert wrote: | >> See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2335159,00.html | >> | >> Any female BSD users out there want to start a group of "Daemon Dames?" | > | > Or "BSD Babes". | | I guess a "Babes of BSD" calendar is out of the question? Perhaps | in suggestive poses with daemon plushies and snapshot CDs? I will pay $20 for one of these. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- air yang tenang jangan disangka tiada buaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 19: 4:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6C114C9A for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:04:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA62074; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:33:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:33:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: funny BSD road stories Message-ID: <19990917113357.T55065@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990916105025.048eba20@localhost> <37E1230B.1BBC958D@scotty.masternet.it> <4.2.0.58.19990916151642.048e3170@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916151642.048e3170@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 03:17:15PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 16 September 1999 at 15:17:15 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:04 PM 9/16/99 +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > >> It should be also in the book of Greg (The complete FreeBSD) if I >> remember well... > > Maybe Greg included it, but it's YEARS older than his book. Correct. It was reproduced with appropriate attributions. OTOH, the story of the original daemon T-shirt was first printed in my book. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 19:33:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5239A14E8A for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA00671 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:36:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199909170236.WAA00671@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: US Encryption Export Rules Loosen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was really surprised when I checked my mail and did not see a flood of comments on Clinton's moves to relax the export limits today. Did he know he was going to lose in Congress, or did he finally fold under the computer lobby's pressures and Gore's funding needs? ...And finally, anyone have a URL or other sources with what exactly the new plans for the rules are? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 20:21:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1AEC14EBD for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scanner@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06074 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:21:51 -0400 (EDT) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Real Audio program that discusses FreeBSD, solaris, and Linux Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just was passed this URL. It has a show called /etc that talks about unix and BSD. Kind of interesting if oyu havew 10 minutes to kil. http://www.thesync.com/etc/archives.html Episode #2. Chris Open Systems Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 22:19:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56BD14E8A for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06730; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:18:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916231554.047bd210@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:18:53 -0600 To: cjclark@home.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: US Encryption Export Rules Loosen In-Reply-To: <199909170236.WAA00671@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See the San Jose Mercury News (www.sjmercury.com) for good coverage. By the way, we shouldn't stand up and applaud just yet. It turns out that the Commerce Department still wants to approve each product individually, even though a Federal judge (Patel) has ruled that this is a prior restraint on free speech and thus violates the First Amendment. What's more, they want to know who all of your customers are; they require you to give them information about EVERY exported copy. So much for anonymous FTP downloads across the Net. --Brett At 10:36 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Crist J. Clark wrote: >I was really surprised when I checked my mail and did not see a flood >of comments on Clinton's moves to relax the export limits today. Did >he know he was going to lose in Congress, or did he finally fold under >the computer lobby's pressures and Gore's funding needs? > >...And finally, anyone have a URL or other sources with what exactly >the new plans for the rules are? >-- >Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 22:22:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115F815207 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06766; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:21:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990916231912.047c2dd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:21:55 -0600 To: Cliff Crawford , "D.M.P." From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: LinuxChix Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) In-Reply-To: References: <37E17393.DA5FE1F2@aracnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:37 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: >| I guess a "Babes of BSD" calendar is out of the question? Perhaps >| in suggestive poses with daemon plushies and snapshot CDs? > >I will pay $20 for one of these. One of the babes, or one of the calendars? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) Tell you what: If FreeBSD, Inc. will let me use a small portion of the program space (perhaps an unused section of ballroom) I'll set up photo gear and a seamless backdrop and take the pictures at the convention. Maybe we could even get Jordan to pose as one of the male "babes." --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 23:10:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8281415494 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05654; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:09:56 +0200 Message-Id: <199909170609.IAA05654@zed.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Joao Assad Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: off-topic : optic fiber problem In-Reply-To: Message from Joao Assad of "Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:49:09 -0000." <37E12D94.3008049A@domain.com.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:09:56 +0200 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Im having some problems here trying to connect two networks with an > optic fiber cable... > Its a very simple connection.... I have a 400ft optic cable with 1 > 100-BaseFX to 100-BaseTX > trasceiver in each end. then I connect 1 computer in each transceiver > and try to send some data... > now, whats happening is that little packets go through just fine but > when I try to send big > packets (like 4kb) I have over 25% packet loss... I'have tryed to send = a > 10mb file through > FTP and ended up with 6kb/sec. Probably half duplex on one side and full duplex on the other. Set both t= o = half or full duplex. Do not trust the auto setting. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 16 23:39:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1500014EEF for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:39:14 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: US Encryption Export Rules Loosen Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bf00d7$5b518120$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916231554.047bd210@localhost> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think much of the absence of commentary is due to a sensible 'wait and see' attitude. That a bit of 'I'll believe it when I see it'. I don't think the war to regain our privacy is over yet. DS > See the San Jose Mercury News (www.sjmercury.com) for good coverage. > > By the way, we shouldn't stand up and applaud just yet. It turns out > that the Commerce Department still wants to approve each product > individually, even though a Federal judge (Patel) has ruled that this > is a prior restraint on free speech and thus violates the First Amendment. > What's more, they want to know who all of your customers are; they > require you to give them information about EVERY exported copy. So > much for anonymous FTP downloads across the Net. > > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 3:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D981514F2F for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@stampede.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA16449; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 05:34:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sji-ca50-38.ix.netcom.com(209.111.213.38) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016434; Fri Sep 17 05:34:15 1999 Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id DAA41168; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 03:34:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Steve Price Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: jordan.pl (was Re: FreeBSD Distributions: Leveling the playing field) References: From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 17 Sep 1999 03:34:09 -0700 In-Reply-To: Steve Price's message of "Tue, 14 Sep 1999 14:13:42 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * From: Steve Price * Now I'm really impressed! jordan.pl is security-minded AND * self-modifying. :) That sounds very oxymoronic (i.e., dangerous).... ;) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 5:33: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C891594C for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 05:31:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA25013; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:31:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01864; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:31:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:31:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LinuxChix In-Reply-To: <199909162020.NAA13171@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My wife is a Daemon Dame! She hates Linux. Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com -- Worst Month of the Year: February. February has only 28 days in it, which means that if you rent an apartment, you are paying for three full days you don't get. Try to avoid Februarys whenever possible. -- Steve Rubenstein On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > See http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2335159,00.html > > > > Any female BSD users out there want to start a group of "Daemon Dames?" > > > Or "BSD Babes". > > It's even sex neutral (at least the way my sister uses it to point > out various men to her friends). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 9:13: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B9415804 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11421; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:12:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990917101002.04e5cdc0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:12:46 -0600 To: "Arthur H. Johnson II" , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: LinuxChix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199909162020.NAA13171@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:31 AM 9/17/99 -0400, Arthur H. Johnson II wrote: >My wife is a Daemon Dame! She hates Linux. "He's a devil, a devil, a very fiend!" "She's a devil, a devil, the Devil's dam!" -- Minor characters commenting on the behavior of Katherine and Petrucchio in Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 10:24: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sand.global.net.uk (sand.global.net.uk [195.147.248.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F86E14FCA for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@globalnet.co.uk) Received: from p82s13a07.client.global.net.uk ([195.147.237.131] helo=marder-1.) by sand.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 11S1jh-00030I-00; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:23:50 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00776; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:09:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:09:51 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: Cliff Crawford , "D.M.P." , Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: LinuxChix Message-ID: <19990917180951.A336@marder-1> References: <37E17393.DA5FE1F2@aracnet.com> <4.2.0.58.19990916231912.047c2dd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916231912.047c2dd0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:21:55PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:21:55PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:37 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > >| I guess a "Babes of BSD" calendar is out of the question? Perhaps > >| in suggestive poses with daemon plushies and snapshot CDs? > > > >I will pay $20 for one of these. > > One of the babes, or one of the calendars? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) > > Tell you what: If FreeBSD, Inc. will let me use a small portion of > the program space (perhaps an unused section of ballroom) I'll set up photo > gear and a seamless backdrop and take the pictures at the convention. And everyone accuses you of never *doing* anything for advocacy :) > Maybe we could even get Jordan to pose as one of the male "babes." Hmm.... > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 10:49:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tucows.com (mail.tucows.com [208.229.216.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBA514CA5 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@tucows.com) Received: from Arthur.Linuxberg (starwars.linuxberg.org [208.229.216.41]) by mail.tucows.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA09509; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:49:19 -0400 Received: from localhost (arthur@localhost) by Arthur.Linuxberg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00389; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:49:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: Arthur.Linuxberg: arthur owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:49:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Arthur H. Johnson II" X-Sender: arthur@Arthur.Linuxberg To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , Cliff Crawford , "D.M.P." , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: LinuxChix In-Reply-To: <19990917180951.A336@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dont you want to SELL copies? Arthur H. Johnson II http://www.linuxberg.com Linuxberg Manager arthur@tucows.com -- Familiarity breeds attempt On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 11:21:55PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:37 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Cliff Crawford wrote: > > > > >| I guess a "Babes of BSD" calendar is out of the question? Perhaps > > >| in suggestive poses with daemon plushies and snapshot CDs? > > > > > >I will pay $20 for one of these. > > > > One of the babes, or one of the calendars? (Sorry, couldn't resist.) > > > > Tell you what: If FreeBSD, Inc. will let me use a small portion of > > the program space (perhaps an unused section of ballroom) I'll set up photo > > gear and a seamless backdrop and take the pictures at the convention. > > And everyone accuses you of never *doing* anything for advocacy :) > > > Maybe we could even get Jordan to pose as one of the male "babes." > > Hmm.... > > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. > OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. > ________________________________________________________________ > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ > mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 11:57:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08872158D7 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA35763; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt014nb6.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: cjclark@home.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Encryption Export Rules Loosen In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916231554.047bd210@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > See the San Jose Mercury News (www.sjmercury.com) for good coverage. > > By the way, we shouldn't stand up and applaud just yet. It turns out > that the Commerce Department still wants to approve each product > individually, even though a Federal judge (Patel) has ruled that this > is a prior restraint on free speech and thus violates the First Amendment. That's not even close to what he ruled. The rulings to date have explicitly ignored the question of products and concentrated on the exportation of source code, and the necessity of such exportation to the efficacious discussion of the advancement of the science of cryptography (hence the free speech connection). Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 13:37: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CDF14C35 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 13:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14229; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:36:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990917143601.0476e100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:36:52 -0600 To: Doug From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: US Encryption Export Rules Loosen Cc: cjclark@home.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990916231554.047bd210@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:44 PM 9/17/99 -0700, Doug wrote: > That's not even close to what he ruled. You must be thinking of a different ruling. The judge was Marilyn Patel, who is obviously not a "he." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 14: 4:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gidora.zeta.org.au (gidora.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F1EC5152D1 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (qmail 11819 invoked from network); 17 Sep 1999 21:04:41 -0000 Received: from d151.syd2.zeta.org.au (HELO ska.bsn) (203.26.9.23) by gidora.zeta.org.au with SMTP; 17 Sep 1999 21:04:41 -0000 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA32032 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:08:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199909172108.HAA32032@ska.bsn> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 07:08:26 +1000 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: LinuxChix To: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990917101002.04e5cdc0@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We need a video (no, not that type of video, get 'yer minds out of the gutter...) Set to Mitch Ryder & the Detroit Wheels version of "Devil With The Blue Dress" *. Dancing daemons. (*) I can't imagine how lame a song about an obese penguin would be. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 14:52:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E74E154DB for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA74788; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 16:52:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 16:52:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Joao Assad Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: off-topic : optic fiber problem In-Reply-To: <37E12D94.3008049A@domain.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Sep 1999, Joao Assad wrote: > Hello all! > > Im having some problems here trying to connect two networks with an > optic fiber cable... > Its a very simple connection.... I have a 400ft optic cable with 1 > 100-BaseFX to 100-BaseTX > trasceiver in each end. then I connect 1 computer in each transceiver > and try to send some data... > now, whats happening is that little packets go through just fine but > when I try to send big > packets (like 4kb) I have over 25% packet loss... I'have tryed to send a > 10mb file through > FTP and ended up with 6kb/sec. > > any idea about what might be causing that ? Your duplex is set incorrectly. Look at the documentation for your converters and see if they support half duplex, full duplex, or both. Once you've figured that out, lock the duplex and speed settings on both ends of the link as appropriate. Auto Negotiation doesn't work across copper<->fiber converters, usually, unless the manufacturer has done some hackery. The documentation should tell you this. I've used some converters where autoneg worked properly, and others where I couldn't get a link up at all until I locked down speed/duplex on both ends. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 18:12:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 167F014F55; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 18:12:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:42510 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:12:29 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 21:12:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Nik Clayton , Jamie Bowden , Dave Walton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: CompUSA adventure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15 Sep 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Also, internal modems usually don't have a speaker, so they don't make > cool noises during handshake either. Eh, WHAT? Every internal modem I've ever used had a speaker, and I always hear the handshake. If it doesn't make sound, the speaker has been muted, but it *IS* there. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 17 19:25:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AECA154FA for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:25:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03868; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:31:51 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA36602; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:15:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990916231912.047c2dd0@localhost> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: LinuxChix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Sep-99 Brett Glass wrote: > gear and a seamless backdrop and take the pictures at the convention. Maybe > we could even get Jordan to pose as one of the male "babes." HA! (I don't think so!) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 18 13:16:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8915914D1A for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 13:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25472; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:16:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990918141411.0479bc10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 14:16:20 -0600 To: David Kelly , "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New bind not completely open source... why GPL is not always best Cc: FreeBSd Chat list In-Reply-To: <199909130340.WAA77139@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:40 PM 9/12/99 -0500, David Kelly wrote: >IMHO there is a big difference between my definition of "Open Source" >and the political agenda behind FSF and GPL. To be open source the >product does not have to be freely redistributable, it simply means you >are given a copy of the source code. One of the earliest examples of >Open Source that I'm familiar with is the monitor PROM in my Apple //e. >I paid all of $10 for the Genuine Apple book containing the assembly >listing. It was quite helpful. In the 80 column text scroll routine it >was quite obvious the author disabled interupts exactly the opposite of >the way documentation said, and his comments said. By the time I >looked, had figured that out for myself. So did I. And this helped me to identify a bug in an associate's BBS software for the Apple //e which had puzzled him for many years. He could not figure out why, when one sent characters to the system very quickly, some would be dropped -- but only now and then. I determined that the problem was that interrupts were off when the screen scrolled -- and the UART only had a one-deep buffer. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 18 18:46:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law-f302.hotmail.com [209.185.130.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98B0E15116 for ; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skalir@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 20533 invoked by uid 0); 19 Sep 1999 01:46:31 -0000 Message-ID: <19990919014631.20532.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 166.62.215.159 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:46:31 PDT X-Originating-IP: [166.62.215.159] From: "skalir scalar" To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: colocation..... Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 17:46:31 AKDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am looking for good, stable and somewhat cheap colocation, atleast on a T1 or higher and I only need 1 ip. I will be hosting a few webpages and irc'ing from this computer that I will design. Shouldn't take up hardly any bandwith. if you can provide such a service for less than $250 a month and with no setup fee, please reply to this email. And yes I will mail the box to whoever or whatever. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message