From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 3 11:45:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E2714A00 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.43]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA74B5 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:45:02 -0400 Message-ID: <37F7A597.669247E7@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 13:51:03 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Mechanical Engineering References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just found that BRL has a FreeBSD binary!! http://ftp.arl.mil/brlcad/ I actually did fill their license some time ago, but I never recieved any answer then, there's no doubt that FreeBSD is gaining more and more acceptance each day. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 11:20:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from panzer.kdm.org (panzer.kdm.org [216.160.178.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF7E154F1 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:20:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.kdm.org) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.kdm.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA72330; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:20:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ken) Message-Id: <199910041820.MAA72330@panzer.kdm.org> Subject: Re: A record? In-Reply-To: <199910041752.TAA21587@gratis.grondar.za> from Mark Murray at "Oct 4, 1999 07:52:28 pm" To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:20:01 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Kenneth D. Merry" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected from -current to -chat ] Mark Murray wrote... > > 7:46PM up 375 days, 20:09, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 > > FreeBSD xxxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxx 2.2.6-STABLE FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE #0: Tue May 5 15:51:34 SAST 1998 xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxx:/usr/src/sys/compile/XXX i38 > 6 > > This box was used as a shell server for more than a year; it was > hardened for shell use, and served us admirably. We recently (with > some sadness) closed down the shell service, but the actual box > will live in some other (staff-serving) incarnation. It isn't quite a record. I seem to recall people posting 400 day or so uptimes before. In any case: # uname -rs FreeBSD 2.1.7.1-RELEASE # uptime 2:12PM up 377 days, 1:21, 2 users, load averages: 0.26, 0.11, 0.03 The box in question is a shell/web/ftp server. It started out with 1.1.5.1 in 1994. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@kdm.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 11:33:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EDD155A0 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA70087; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F8F2CF.DA4A2F99@owp.csus.edu> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 18:32:47 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kenneth D. Merry" Cc: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? References: <199910041820.MAA72330@panzer.kdm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kenneth D. Merry" wrote: > > [ redirected from -current to -chat ] > > Mark Murray wrote... > > > 7:46PM up 375 days, 20:09, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.01, 0.00 > > > FreeBSD xxxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxx 2.2.6-STABLE FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE #0: Tue May 5 15:51:34 SAST 1998 xxxx@xxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxx.xxx:/usr/src/sys/compile/XXX i38 > > 6 > > > > This box was used as a shell server for more than a year; it was > > hardened for shell use, and served us admirably. We recently (with > > some sadness) closed down the shell service, but the actual box > > will live in some other (staff-serving) incarnation. > > It isn't quite a record. I seem to recall people posting 400 day or so > uptimes before. In any case: Hehehehehehe. Not even close. Take a look at : http://uptime.hexon.cx/ There are several machines with higher uptimes. This doesn't really speak for their load though. > # uname -rs > FreeBSD 2.1.7.1-RELEASE > # uptime > 2:12PM up 377 days, 1:21, 2 users, load averages: 0.26, 0.11, 0.03 > > The box in question is a shell/web/ftp server. It started out with 1.1.5.1 > in 1994. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 12:13:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075DF150D0 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00413 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:14:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:14:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: converting RTF Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just tried to use my copy of Word Perfect 8 to decode a RTF doc, and it blew up ... I think that's from the recent signal changes in current. I posted that to FreeBSD-current, so they know, but I still need those RTF docs converted. Anyone out there have the ability to convert RTF docs to any medium I can read under FreeBSD? The ports utility, rtf2LaTeX, seems to choke on the docs, and only converts about 5 lines before croacking. This stuff is audio documentation for a sound card I'm interested in ... I've been doing a lot of audio + midi reading, and I want to know more about this card. Please, if you can convert these files any way at all, even if it looks poor, if it's readable, it's ok. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 13:52:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD70714D31 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-108.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.108] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA23486; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:51:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37F9135B.9DEDB85@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 15:51:39 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Walter Campbell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange reboots References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Walter Campbell wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Andreas Berg wrote: > > > I recently installed FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE (990926-snapshot). The reason I > > upgraded was that my old 3.2-STABLE got unstable and rebooted a little now > > and then, just like it felt like it. Now, a couple of hours after the > > installation of 3.3-STABLE, I get the same strange phenomenon, the box just > > reboots. > > > I've had the same problems...all due to hardware. Machine would randomly > reboot about once a week, then once every two days or so, finally once a > day. Tried upgrading hte software, checked for possible heat problems, > checked the RAM, all fine...Disabled the L2 cache, haven't had a single > problem since (unless you count the machine room getting flooded by > Hurricane Floyd). Most unusual things can be traced down to hardware > problems. Ah, now that's a great way to get replacement parts / better equipment. But how to get the firehose into the machine room.... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 16: 7:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594FD155A6 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id XAA19181 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:04:36 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id QAA18772 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:04:59 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id TAA24010; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:05:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14329.12959.621354.82477@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 16:05:03 -0700 (MST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: new port to try out -- flexbackup X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, For those of you with tape backup units, please try out a new port of some software called "flexbackup." A friend of mine wrote it and I've contributed patches along with making the FreeBSD port. You can find a FreeBSD package and port shar (submitted but not yet committed to the ports tree! ... ports/14108 hint hint, wink wink) at (current version is 0.9.6) http://members.home.com/edwinh/flexbackup/ In essence it's a huge perl script that automates using dump, afio, cpio, or even zip to archive things onto tape. It also helps retreiving listings from non-dump(8) archives and plans are in the works for a restore-like interface (and hopefully GTK+ if he gets the time to learn how ;) for other archive formats such as afio/cpio/zip (will work like dump/restore with an interactive "shell"). It can also automate doing archives over a network via rsh or ssh. I highly recommend its use. -Jr ps: I don't have all dependencies for the "package" correct. If you wish to use external buffering you'll need to install the "buffer" port. Same goes for afio. The "port" shar does have these dependencies correct, however. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 17:18:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2886C14E75 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13263; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F9436B.889B106B@mindless.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:16:43 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Scott Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? References: <199910041820.MAA72330@panzer.kdm.org> <37F8F2CF.DA4A2F99@owp.csus.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Scott wrote: > Hehehehehehe. Not even close. Take a look at : > > http://uptime.hexon.cx/ > > There are several machines with higher uptimes. This doesn't really > speak for their load though. It's rather nice to see that 7 of the top 10 are BSD systems, and that 5 of those 7 are FreeBSD. :-) Question: Linux 2.0.18 has been running for 907 days? I wasn't aware that Linux 2.0 had been out that long (2.5 years). -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 19:15:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id D663815063; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD53A1CD472; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:15:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Newton Cc: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? In-Reply-To: <199910042315.IAA13155@gizmo.internode.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Mark Newton wrote: > ... and, before this thread gets completely out of control, I direct > posters to http://uptime.viper.net.au (warning: if you're easily offended, > don't bother). ROFL! This is the funniest thing I've seen all day - it captures the sentiment of comparing uptimes perfectly. It also gives new meaning to the tagline I've seen floating around on people's signatures: "Viagra for your server". Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 19:18:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 64DE915063; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0291CD472; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:18:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "D.M.P." Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? In-Reply-To: <37F9436B.889B106B@mindless.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > Question: Linux 2.0.18 has been running for 907 days? I wasn't > aware that Linux 2.0 had been out that long (2.5 years). It's probably wise to take these figures with a fairly large grain of salt (although they do make good PR). It's amazing what you can do by fiddling with your system clock or tweaking your kernel's "time of last boot" variable :-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 22:26:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A0861512D for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 66322 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 05:26:09 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 05:26:09 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:26:08 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Chuck Robey Cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: converting RTF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > Anyone out there have the ability to convert RTF docs to any medium I can > read under FreeBSD? The ports utility, rtf2LaTeX, seems to choke on the > docs, and only converts about 5 lines before croacking. Staroffice can create RTF, I presume it can read them. Failing that mail 'em to me, and I will turn them into something sane for you. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 22:27:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69E2D1528E for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 66668 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 05:27:43 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 05:27:43 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:27:43 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Kris Kirby Cc: Walter Campbell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange reboots In-Reply-To: <37F9135B.9DEDB85@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > I've had the same problems...all due to hardware. Machine would randomly > > reboot about once a week, then once every two days or so, finally once a > > day. Tried upgrading hte software, checked for possible heat problems, > > checked the RAM, all fine...Disabled the L2 cache, haven't had a single > > problem since (unless you count the machine room getting flooded by > > Hurricane Floyd). Most unusual things can be traced down to hardware > > problems. > > Ah, now that's a great way to get replacement parts / better equipment. > But how to get the firehose into the machine room.... Don't joke. AT&T wireless found fish in some other equipment after floyd. David scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 23: 6: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D802154B4 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23044; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:04:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991005000224.04249100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 00:04:24 -0600 To: Kris Kirby , Walter Campbell From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Strange reboots Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37F9135B.9DEDB85@airnet.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Usually, this is due to hardware, but sometimes it isn't. I discovered, by accident, that failing to compile FreeBSD 2.2.7 or 2.2.8 with the ATAPI_STATIC option would cause random reboots on some of our systems. Probably a timing problem in the disk code. Never found out what the race condition was, but did solve the problem by compiling the kernel with different options. --Brett At 03:51 PM 10/4/99 -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: >Walter Campbell wrote: > > > > On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Andreas Berg wrote: > > > > > I recently installed FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE (990926-snapshot). The reason I > > > upgraded was that my old 3.2-STABLE got unstable and rebooted a little now > > > and then, just like it felt like it. Now, a couple of hours after the > > > installation of 3.3-STABLE, I get the same strange phenomenon, the box just > > > reboots. > > > > > I've had the same problems...all due to hardware. Machine would randomly > > reboot about once a week, then once every two days or so, finally once a > > day. Tried upgrading hte software, checked for possible heat problems, > > checked the RAM, all fine...Disabled the L2 cache, haven't had a single > > problem since (unless you count the machine room getting flooded by > > Hurricane Floyd). Most unusual things can be traced down to hardware > > problems. > >Ah, now that's a great way to get replacement parts / better equipment. >But how to get the firehose into the machine room.... > >-- >Kris Kirby > >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 4 23:56:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E022B15071 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 23:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 5697 invoked by uid 1003); 5 Oct 1999 06:58:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:58:24 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "D.M.P." , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? Message-ID: <19991005085824.A5143@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <37F9436B.889B106B@mindless.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 1999-10-04 (19:18), Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Question: Linux 2.0.18 has been running for 907 days? I wasn't > > aware that Linux 2.0 had been out that long (2.5 years). > > It's probably wise to take these figures with a fairly large grain of salt > (although they do make good PR). It's amazing what you can do by fiddling > with your system clock or tweaking your kernel's "time of last boot" > variable :-) Amusingly, when Windows 2000 Professional (beta 3) hibernates (dumps memory and stuff to disk, and turns off) and is woken up, it retains your uptime. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 0: 2: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ro.com (sh1.ro.com [205.216.92.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EFE515104 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tnt1-97-16.ro.com [208.134.97.16]) by ro.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/RO-1.01) with ESMTP id CAA16689; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 02:01:02 -0500 Message-ID: <37F9A22E.D4C6C6D7@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 02:01:02 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange reboots References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > Ah, now that's a great way to get replacement parts / better equipment. > > But how to get the firehose into the machine room.... > > Don't joke. AT&T wireless found fish in some other equipment after floyd. > > David scheidt I'm sorry, I just had the thought of Simon, the BOFH. You shouldn't have told me about the fish, another joke comes to mind... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 5:56:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF75014BD5 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 05:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18186; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:56:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:56:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: David Scheidt Cc: FreeBSD-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: converting RTF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, David Scheidt wrote: > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > Anyone out there have the ability to convert RTF docs to any medium I can > > read under FreeBSD? The ports utility, rtf2LaTeX, seems to choke on the > > docs, and only converts about 5 lines before croacking. > > Staroffice can create RTF, I presume it can read them. Failing that mail > 'em to me, and I will turn them into something sane for you. Thanks, guys, Ollivier Robert did the first one for me, then I was disappointed to see they were copies (under different names) of docs that I had in ascii. I'll stop. The format was so bad on one it wouldn't convert at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 8:44:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08FD150E9; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA73488; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FA1CBE.9043B522@owp.csus.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 15:43:58 +0000 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: "D.M.P." , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > > > Question: Linux 2.0.18 has been running for 907 days? I wasn't > > aware that Linux 2.0 had been out that long (2.5 years). I don't know how long it's been out, when did 2.2.x come out? Heck, I don't really care. > > It's probably wise to take these figures with a fairly large grain of salt > (although they do make good PR). It's amazing what you can do by fiddling > with your system clock or tweaking your kernel's "time of last boot" > variable :-) > > Kris I can verify that the two FreeBSD boxes with my name next to them have been up that long ( and it would have been longer if the power hadn't gone out for quite awhile one night ). They belong to my previous employer, and when I talk to them they say both machines are still humming right along. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 9: 0:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0903F14FAD; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-179.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.179]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05629; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:59:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37FA2063.8C8EF327@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 10:59:31 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Mark Newton wrote: > > > ... and, before this thread gets completely out of control, I direct > > posters to http://uptime.viper.net.au (warning: if you're easily offended, > > don't bother). > > ROFL! This is the funniest thing I've seen all day - it captures the > sentiment of comparing uptimes perfectly. I'm sure the method is extensible enough to be used to compare just about anything that involves numbers used in comparison. RC5DES keyrate, blockrate, amount of hard drive space, memory, etc. An interesting application of HTML... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 10:11:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 329F715650 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-101.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.101] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA20556 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:11:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37FA3107.13B3B673@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:10:31 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we can't ask for a little help in porting... Of course, I'm one to speak. The only Mac I own doesn't work. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 10:55:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAB7150D6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA90789; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:54:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:54:14 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FA3107.13B3B673@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > can't ask for a little help in porting... > > Of course, I'm one to speak. The only Mac I own doesn't work. Look in the archives of FreeBSD-sparc on when (and how) to ask a commercial entity for help. The demand for freebsd that runs on 68x machines is probably low to very low. Especially has NetBSD has been available for some time and FreeBSD doesn't (AFAIK) support VME yet. > -- > Kris Kirby > > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 11:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC47F155E5 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:52:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id UAA20603 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:51:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id AB3BD885C; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:32:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:32:51 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? Message-ID: <19991005203251.A90633@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <37F9436B.889B106B@mindless.com> <19991005085824.A5143@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991005085824.A5143@rucus.ru.ac.za> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Neil Blakey-Milner: > Amusingly, when Windows 2000 Professional (beta 3) hibernates (dumps > memory and stuff to disk, and turns off) and is woken up, it retains > your uptime. That's expected. I used to have a SunOS 4.1.3u1 laptop (Tadpole) in my previous job and with hibernation I nearly reached 200 days of uptime. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #74: Thu Sep 9 00:20:51 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 11:53:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB80155E5 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id UAA20848 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:52:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9CBB5885C; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:34:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:34:39 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Message-ID: <19991005203439.B90633@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <37FA3107.13B3B673@airnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <37FA3107.13B3B673@airnet.net> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Kris Kirby: > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > can't ask for a little help in porting... To be honest, if someone wants to port to 68k, I'd don't bother. Run NetBSD on that machine BUT get Apple to help on the [nonexistent] PowerPC port :-) :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #74: Thu Sep 9 00:20:51 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 11:55:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D6D315634 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 11:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 12374 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 18:55:43 -0000 Received: from userat31.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.137.134) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 18:55:43 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA00956; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:55:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:55:31 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Kris Kennaway , "D.M.P." , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A record? Message-ID: <19991005195531.A315@marder-1> References: <37F9436B.889B106B@mindless.com> <19991005085824.A5143@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991005085824.A5143@rucus.ru.ac.za> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 08:58:24AM +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Mon 1999-10-04 (19:18), Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > Question: Linux 2.0.18 has been running for 907 days? I wasn't > > > aware that Linux 2.0 had been out that long (2.5 years). > > > > It's probably wise to take these figures with a fairly large grain of salt > > (although they do make good PR). It's amazing what you can do by fiddling > > with your system clock or tweaking your kernel's "time of last boot" > > variable :-) > > Amusingly, when Windows 2000 Professional (beta 3) hibernates (dumps > memory and stuff to disk, and turns off) and is woken up, it retains > your uptime. > Well, they had to find some way of getting the uptime measured in weeks, didn't they :) BTW, has anyone else read the supposed decree from Lord Gates to the W2K development team that "...anything that requires a reboot is to be considered a bug". Now that I have got to see. > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 13: 4:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFC8015634 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23611; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:03:03 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A record? In-Reply-To: <19991005195531.A315@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Mark Ovens wrote: > BTW, has anyone else read the supposed decree from Lord Gates to > the W2K development team that "...anything that requires a reboot > is to be considered a bug". Now that I have got to see. That should make their tech support interesting. From what I've heard their only answers now are either reboot or reinstall. Guess that will leave them with only one. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 13:27:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AAC514E1F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00756; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:25:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:25:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <19991005203439.B90633@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Ollivier Robert wrote: > To be honest, if someone wants to port to 68k, I'd don't bother. Run > NetBSD on that machine BUT get Apple to help on the [nonexistent] > PowerPC port :-) :-) Um, there is a PPC port isn't there? From the webpage: Ports in the source tree: macppc powerpc Apple Power Macintosh 1.4.1 stable It supposedly supports: Apple Power Macintosh 7300/7600 Apple Power Macintosh 8500/8600 Apple Power Macintosh 9500/9600 Apple Power Macintosh G3 MT266/DT233 Apple PowerBook 2400c/180 Apple PowerBook 3400 Apple iMac (all flavors) and Blue G3 Apple PowerBook G3/400 UMAX Apus2000 PowerComputing PowerWave 604/120 Motorola StarMax 3000/240 Apple Power Macintosh 7500 (With G3 upgrade) There's also support for the older 68k machines. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 13:53:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3683615686 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28740; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:00:54 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10593; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37FA3107.13B3B673@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Kris Kirby Subject: RE: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Oct-99 Kris Kirby wrote: > It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > can't ask for a little help in porting... The 68K machines are, as far as I'm concerned, obsolete. The last one I used regularly (once or more a day) was the Mac LC 575, and that was in 1995. I do not care anymore for such worthless hardware. If you have a junky one around, it's probably good enough that NetBSD would be able to run on it (I think). The PowerPC platform.. that's another story. Hopefully someday FreeBSD will be ported to that platform. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 13:59:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 06F6414DA8; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F296F1CD46D; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:59:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Ovens Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , "D.M.P." , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A record? In-Reply-To: <19991005195531.A315@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Amusingly, when Windows 2000 Professional (beta 3) hibernates (dumps > > memory and stuff to disk, and turns off) and is woken up, it retains > > your uptime. > > > > Well, they had to find some way of getting the uptime measured in > weeks, didn't they :) > > BTW, has anyone else read the supposed decree from Lord Gates to > the W2K development team that "...anything that requires a reboot > is to be considered a bug". Now that I have got to see. Well, I suppose "sneezing" is often the result of influenza, so I guess that does count. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 14: 6: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF14615651 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id XAA26859 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:02:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 4E325885C; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:58:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:58:53 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Message-ID: <19991005225853.A94194@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19991005203439.B90633@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Taylor: > Um, there is a PPC port isn't there? For NetBSD yes, not for FreeBSD :) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #74: Thu Sep 9 00:20:51 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 14:18: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 500A615667; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F381CD46D; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:17:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Satoshi Asami Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX In-Reply-To: <199910051145.EAA81782@freefall.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Satoshi Asami wrote: > asami 1999/10/05 04:45:18 PDT > > Modified files: > . INDEX > Log: > New index, with 2,685 (3 x 5 x 179) ports. I don't think I've quite > stumbled upon someone's p (or q) this time. Damn you, this was mine!! :-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 14:19: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA2B15676 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08054; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:16:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd007942; Tue Oct 5 14:16:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17594; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:16:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910052116.OAA17594@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:16:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 5, 99 08:54:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > > had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > > parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > > can't ask for a little help in porting... > > > > Of course, I'm one to speak. The only Mac I own doesn't work. > > Look in the archives of FreeBSD-sparc on when (and how) to ask a > commercial entity for help. > > The demand for freebsd that runs on 68x machines is probably low to very > low. Especially has NetBSD has been available for some time and FreeBSD > doesn't (AFAIK) support VME yet. NetBSD runs fine on my 68040 HP box. And binaries will run across the HP/Amiga/Macintosh platforms, no problems. I think a 680x0 FreeBSD port would be a neat thing; you could easily leverage the NetBSD work for most of it. For that matter, NetBSD runs on iMacs (PPC); Doug Ambrisko uses netbooting to boot them up occasionally around here. Come to think of it, Whistle has rather an "in" with I.B.M. for things like RS/6000 and other equipment as well, these days, seeing as I.B.M. owns us... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 14:32:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E488915345 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08719; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:18:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd008322; Tue Oct 5 14:18:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17605; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:17:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910052117.OAA17605@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:17:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991005203439.B90633@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Oct 5, 99 08:34:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > > can't ask for a little help in porting... > > To be honest, if someone wants to port to 68k, I'd don't bother. Run > NetBSD on that machine BUT get Apple to help on the [nonexistent] > PowerPC port :-) :-) See other post. NetBSD runs on iMac's. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 18: 7: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9551714CE6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA327C; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:06:31 -0400 Message-ID: <37FA47E8.DE86C509@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 13:48:08 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the -hackers archives...somewhere. cheers, Pedro. Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > > had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > > parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > > can't ask for a little help in porting... > > > > Of course, I'm one to speak. The only Mac I own doesn't work. > > Look in the archives of FreeBSD-sparc on when (and how) to ask a > commercial entity for help. > > The demand for freebsd that runs on 68x machines is probably low to very > low. Especially has NetBSD has been available for some time and FreeBSD > doesn't (AFAIK) support VME yet. > > > -- > > Kris Kirby > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 18:54: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id E0CFC15263; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57971CD46D; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:52:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni Cc: Narvi , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FA47E8.DE86C509@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the > -hackers archives...somewhere. That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 18:58:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C84150E6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.58]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA32F5; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:56:07 -0400 Message-ID: <37FAADB0.63D3A71A@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:02:24 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Narvi , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org REALLY ? It did sound strange, but even a core team member fell... Pedro. Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > > Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the > > -hackers archives...somewhere. > > That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? > > Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 19: 4:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4B31530F; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA78855; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:32:24 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:32:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni Cc: Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Message-ID: <19991006113224.C78191@freebie.lemis.com> References: <37FAADB0.63D3A71A@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <37FAADB0.63D3A71A@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 5 October 1999 at 21:02:24 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > Kris Kennaway wrote: >> >> On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >> >>> Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the >>> -hackers archives...somewhere. >> >> That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? > > REALLY ? It did sound strange, but even a core team member fell... What evidence did you have that it was a hoax? It sounded pretty plausible to me. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 19:13:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 737CD156A4; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2791CD46D; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Greg Lehey Cc: Pedro Fernando Giffuni , Narvi , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <19991006113224.C78191@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? > > > > REALLY ? It did sound strange, but even a core team member fell... > > What evidence did you have that it was a hoax? It sounded pretty > plausible to me. http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=771119+773696+/usr/local/www/db/text/1999/freebsd-hackers/19990808.freebsd-hackers As far as I could tell from the discussion on -committers and -hackers, no-one ever saw a copy of the alleged port. I'm quite prepared to stand corrected on this, though! Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 21:48:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B2614EE7 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27719; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FAD45F.9A04C962@mindless.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:47:27 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > On 05-Oct-99 Kris Kirby wrote: >> It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple >> had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some >> parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of >> porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. >> However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we >> can't ask for a little help in porting... > > The 68K machines are, as far as I'm concerned, obsolete. The last one I used > regularly (once or more a day) was the Mac LC 575, and that was in 1995. I do > not care anymore for such worthless hardware. If you have a junky one around, > it's probably good enough that NetBSD would be able to run on it (I think). Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 21:49:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 79090156D0 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:49:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 6231 invoked by alias); 6 Oct 1999 04:49:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19991006044915.6230.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 6218 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 04:49:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 04:49:14 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: Terry Lambert Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:46:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Come to think of it, Whistle has rather an "in" with I.B.M. for > things like RS/6000 and other equipment as well, these days, > seeing as I.B.M. owns us... 8-). Hey, if anyone is motivated to make an RS/6000 port, my roommate has an old model 7012 workstation that could be made available. Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 22:16:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8E314E5F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.53]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA34DA; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:15:32 -0400 Message-ID: <37FACEBE.CF43E093@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 23:23:26 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Greg Lehey , Narvi , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seemed very improbable that someone in isolation could undertake such a task, but FWIW, someone in Atlanta told me the guy in question was not a perl script after all ... :-) I recall all this news are more than a month old...which OTOH is not too much, but there was a later posting that suggested another thing: I am unable to find it in FreeBSD-SMP (I sometimes visit those lists using egroups), but I THINK it was phk, while asking people not to whine about Matt Dillon's lack-of commit privs, that he mentioned that the 680xx effort was real. I don't care much about this particular port, but seeing FreeBSD on another platform (any platform) is always a good thing. cheers, Pedro. Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? > > > > > > REALLY ? It did sound strange, but even a core team member fell... > > > > What evidence did you have that it was a hoax? It sounded pretty > > plausible to me. > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=771119+773696+/usr/local/www/db/text/1999/freebsd-hackers/19990808.freebsd-hackers > > As far as I could tell from the discussion on -committers and -hackers, > no-one ever saw a copy of the alleged port. I'm quite prepared to stand > corrected on this, though! > > Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 5 23:43:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.inx.de (www.inx.de [195.21.255.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F90814E77 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from n35-2.berlin.snafu.de ([195.21.35.2] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by www.inx.de with esmtp (Exim 3.02 #1) id 11YknM-00042A-00; Wed, 06 Oct 1999 08:43:24 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 8304C143; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:10:50 +0200 (CEST) To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We have have answers! [Was: Re: praise be to Torvalds?] References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 06 Oct 1999 01:10:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Tue, 28 Sep 1999 22:27:32 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes on freebsd-chat: > http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Node/4081/ Sorry, David, but I can't be the only one: While I have basically unlimited Web accesss (although slow) at work, I read the mailing lists at home, where I pay for connection setup and connect time. (And I'll have to wait until this changes here in Germany.) So, if you want to communicate your point even to us foreign ones: State what you mean to say, briefly perhaps, and *then* include the URL for reference, in case someone is interested in the details. Sorry -- and I regret myself this isn't how it ought to be. Greetings, -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 6:27:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CAC15226 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from tracy.umd.edu (tracy.umd.edu [128.8.10.51]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA23653; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by tracy.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA28558; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tracy.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:27:07 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@tracy.umd.edu To: "D.M.P." Cc: Will Andrews , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FAD45F.9A04C962@mindless.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. Here at the University of Maryland, the Aerospace people have built a robot using a 68k processor and a more powerful version using PPC. I kind of suspect they are using VME boards for it. A friend of mine is working as a programmer on the project but he has no idea what is inside the box. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 7:10:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F914156E8 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04350; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:09:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:09:24 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert Cc: kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <199910052116.OAA17594@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > > > had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > > > parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > > > porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > > > However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > > > can't ask for a little help in porting... > > > > > > Of course, I'm one to speak. The only Mac I own doesn't work. > > > > Look in the archives of FreeBSD-sparc on when (and how) to ask a > > commercial entity for help. > > > > The demand for freebsd that runs on 68x machines is probably low to very > > low. Especially has NetBSD has been available for some time and FreeBSD > > doesn't (AFAIK) support VME yet. > > NetBSD runs fine on my 68040 HP box. And binaries will run across > the HP/Amiga/Macintosh platforms, no problems. > > > I think a 680x0 FreeBSD port would be a neat thing; you could > easily leverage the NetBSD work for most of it. > 'Neat'? Definately. But that is mostly besides the point. > For that matter, NetBSD runs on iMacs (PPC); Doug Ambrisko uses > netbooting to boot them up occasionally around here. > > Come to think of it, Whistle has rather an "in" with I.B.M. for > things like RS/6000 and other equipment as well, these days, > seeing as I.B.M. owns us... 8-). > PPC and 68xxx are whole different worlds. PPC port would definately be nice. Esp. one supporting a wide range of different PPC processors (within the limits that these have MMU, etc.) > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 7:24: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308B3150DF; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04610; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:21:49 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:21:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Greg Lehey Cc: Pedro Fernando Giffuni , Kris Kennaway , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <19991006113224.C78191@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 5 October 1999 at 21:02:24 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > Kris Kennaway wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > >> > >>> Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the > >>> -hackers archives...somewhere. > >> > >> That turned out to be a hoax, didn't it? > > > > REALLY ? It did sound strange, but even a core team member fell... > > What evidence did you have that it was a hoax? It sounded pretty > plausible to me. > No talk of it since then, inc. on the -platforms and nothing showing up either on the news page or the tree? > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 7:24: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62AD01512F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:22:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04586; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:20:49 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:20:49 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FA47E8.DE86C509@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > Actually, there was also a recent 68x port somewhere, look in the > -hackers archives...somewhere. > A totally unconfirmed port at that. Could just as well have been a troll. > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 7:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1459615197; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04673; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:24:08 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:24:08 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Pedro Fernando Giffuni Cc: Kris Kennaway , Greg Lehey , Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FACEBE.CF43E093@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > It seemed very improbable that someone in isolation could undertake such > a task, but FWIW, someone in Atlanta told me the guy in question was not > a perl script after all ... :-) > > I recall all this news are more than a month old...which OTOH is not too > much, but there was a later posting that suggested another thing: I am > unable to find it in FreeBSD-SMP (I sometimes visit those lists using > egroups), but I THINK it was phk, while asking people not to whine about > Matt Dillon's lack-of commit privs, that he mentioned that the 680xx > effort was real. > I don't remember that. But I do remember Jordan saying that even if it should prove to not be a hoax (highly doubtful) it's inclusion in the tree should still be given a lot of consideration. > I don't care much about this particular port, but seeing FreeBSD on > another platform (any platform) is always a good thing. > > cheers, > > Pedro. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 8: 4:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD5E14CD3 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:04:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: by super-g.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 921CEB91C; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F35DB91B; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:04:09 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Will Andrews Cc: Kris Kirby , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Will Andrews wrote: > The 68K machines are, as far as I'm concerned, obsolete. The last one I used > regularly (once or more a day) was the Mac LC 575, and that was in 1995. I do > not care anymore for such worthless hardware. If you have a junky one around, > it's probably good enough that NetBSD would be able to run on it (I think). Yep, I've got a IIx running NetBSD. I gave up on it because it didn't like only having 5MB of RAM. If anyone knows where to get *cheap* memory for this thing, I'd much appreciate it. It's "special". If I could spend less than $30 for 16M, I'd be pretty happy... Charles > The PowerPC platform.. that's another story. Hopefully someday FreeBSD will be > ported to that platform. :-) > > -- > Will Andrews > GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- > ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ > G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 8:48:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13CE155BD for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:48:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04071; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:48:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Message-Id: <199910061548.LAA04071@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37FB5B9D.34C6EFC8@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 11:48:55 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) Cc: mwlucas@gltg.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat for hopefully obvious reasons] On 06-Oct-99 Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> >> mwlucas@gltg.com writes: >> > http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~dispatch/stupid-bsd-questions.txt >> >> Looks great! >> >> BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) > > I think it was more on the lines of "Suppose a FreeBSD developer had > a date with a couple of hot twins..." :-) Yes, and DES is trying to facilitate this so as to make the example in the document a truly real-life example. I'm sure that several other developers would be more than willing to help in that effort. --- John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 9:28:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4F71570C for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p17-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.146]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id BAA05437; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:28:00 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB7828.F38432A2@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 01:26:16 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@gltg.com, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Stupid Newbie questions (was re: developer assessment) References: <199910061548.LAA04071@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > > [moved to -chat for hopefully obvious reasons] Yup. :-) > >> BTW, do the hot twins down the hall have a phone number? 8) > > > > I think it was more on the lines of "Suppose a FreeBSD developer had > > a date with a couple of hot twins..." :-) > > Yes, and DES is trying to facilitate this so as to make the example in > the document a truly real-life example. I'm sure that several other > developers would be more than willing to help in that effort. Oh, in that case, I volunteer! -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 9:44:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B491571A for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA07624; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:44:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:44:10 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Style Challenge! In-Reply-To: <199910061607.MAA06336@server.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > > As I said, check the archives where this was hashed out earlier. All > new (English) documentation is supposed to use double spaces. If it > really bothers people, then I'll write a sed script to go put double > spaces in everywhere in the older docs as well. > Bothers is maybe too strong. Most of the 'one space after period' people just don't care all that much. > > And if they get always compressed by the styles sheets anyways, why > > bother at all? > > In the future this behavior may be tweaked in the style sheets. The At which point the now silent people will probably start shouting and it will lead nowhere. It is ugly on paper - really ugly. It is also ugly onscreen. But that's IMHO. > issue, however, has to do with the readability of the source. The > style sheets determine the output, so output and input formats are two > different animals. The documentation writers decided earlier to go > with double spaces for the (English) documentation because we find it > easier to read. Some of us are anal about grammar as well. Not to Being anal about grammar is definately ok with me. > mention that most of us are in the habit of using two spaces after > sentences, so keeping it at two spaces makes our lives easier. :) For Looking at the lists in general, it is about even. > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/ > PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 14: 7:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saturn.psn.net (saturn.psn.net [207.211.58.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CAB1153B6 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from shadow.blackdawn.com (5042-243.008.popsite.net [209.224.140.243]) by saturn.psn.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23562; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:17:33 -0700 (MST) Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA31540; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:07:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37FAD45F.9A04C962@mindless.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: "D.M.P." Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Oct-99 D.M.P. wrote: > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. True, however, the difference can be spelled out in three letters - PCI. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 15:35:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A28A1577A for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14417 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:34:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991006162742.041343e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:34:32 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: This would be funny if it weren't so true Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just got a copy of this satirical post pointing out the similarity between the GPL and a chain letter. Hey, maybe the GPL *is* really a chain letter in disguise! Edited to correct a few spelling and grammatical errors. --Brett The GNU Public Letter This License was sent to you for good luck. Copy this License, attach it to all of your computer source files and publish them on the Internet. If enough people do this, everyone will begin to wish you good luck, that is, good luck trying to get a job as a computer programmer! This loop was started by an American computer scientist with bad hygiene. It should iterate three times before terminating. terminating. terminating. terminating. terminatin. Damn buggy GNU software. You may modify your copy or copies of this License or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the License, and copy and distribute such modifications or work, provided that you give all of your money to the GNU Collective. Do it within twenty-four hours and count nine years and you will have some great good fortune, mostly in your fortune cookie file. Do not break the License, for whoever does will have bad luck. Linus Torvalds placed this license on Minix. He became renowned as a genius, and was mobbed by screaming teenage girls. Anonymous Coward threw this message away and was flamed to death on Slashdot. The chain grows a definite power over the expected code. Do not break the chain. See what happens in the 9th year. Sucker. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 17: 9: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22FF614CB2 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12496; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FBE46A.F0D3147B@mindless.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:08:10 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > > On 06-Oct-99 D.M.P. wrote: > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. > > True, however, the difference can be spelled out in three letters - PCI. Three little letters that aren't needed when you're talking about gatewaying a dialup or ISDN connection. Even my DSL line here at home runs full-speed through a 3c509 on a 486DX33. -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 18:19:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id F2A2E14D5C; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E864A1CD45C; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:18:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Taylor Cc: Adam Szilveszter , Greg Skafte , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > MS abandoned porting to the alpha. This means they have no testbed right > now for running/developing 2000 on a 64-bit chip, like say Merced, I mean > Itanium. :-) ^^^^^^^ Gotta love marketing. I can't wait for the Ercury, the Ickel and the Utherfordium! Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 18:46:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EE714E35 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25322; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:44:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd025305; Wed Oct 6 18:44:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA21696; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:44:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910070144.SAA21696@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: gryph@mindless.com (D.M.P.) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:44:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FAD45F.9A04C962@mindless.com> from "D.M.P." at Oct 5, 99 09:47:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Will Andrews wrote: > > On 05-Oct-99 Kris Kirby wrote: > >> It wasn't that long ago that I began to think about the fact that Apple > >> had contacted the FreeBSD folks (-core, I think) about including some > >> parts into Mac OS X. For some reason, I thought about the possiblity of > >> porting FreeBSD to the "Mac" platform and was suddenly enlightened. > >> However, if Mac OS X doesn't run on 68K machines, I see no reason why we > >> can't ask for a little help in porting... > > > > The 68K machines are, as far as I'm concerned, obsolete. The last one > > I used regularly (once or more a day) was the Mac LC 575, and that > > was in 1995. I do not care anymore for such worthless hardware. If > > you have a junky one around, it's probably good enough that NetBSD > > would be able to run on it (I think). > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. FWIW: Name: Palm Vx Availability: October 4 Cost: $449 (http://www.palm.com/products/palmvx/index.html) RAM: 8MB Network: iRDA Processor: 68328 <-- Note Keyboard: Serial (KeySync Palm Keyboard DKP62, $69.00) This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19: 6:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3160C15360 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02010; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:04:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001992; Wed Oct 6 19:04:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22371; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:04:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910070204.TAA22371@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:04:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 6, 99 05:09:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > For that matter, NetBSD runs on iMacs (PPC); Doug Ambrisko uses > > netbooting to boot them up occasionally around here. > > > > Come to think of it, Whistle has rather an "in" with I.B.M. for > > things like RS/6000 and other equipment as well, these days, > > seeing as I.B.M. owns us... 8-). > > > > PPC and 68xxx are whole different worlds. PPC port would definately be > nice. Esp. one supporting a wide range of different PPC processors > (within the limits that these have MMU, etc.) I already have a FreeBSD from 3 years ago that runs on a Motorolla Powerstack, not that that's any big deal, now that there are NetBSD ports to PPC, and no one is using PPCBug to boot things anymore. Jack Vogel had a FreeBSD 1.1.5 that ran SMP on a 4 processor SPARC box (4.5 years ago); he also had the original Intel SMP stuff running 4 years ago (I have his patches against the 17 Oct 1995 tree snapshot; these formed the original basis of the FreeBSD SMP work when they were reseurrected by people with commit priviledges). Mostly, until some people with pull regarding the source tree organization came on board and shoved the alpha port down "some peoples" throats, the source tree just wasn't organized correctly for non-Intel ports to be integrated properly, so they have languished. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19:11:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F2215360; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:11:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA17993; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:09:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAABha4cJ; Wed Oct 6 19:09:00 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22483; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:09:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910070209.TAA22483@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:09:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, kris@hub.freebsd.org, grog@lemis.com, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 6, 99 05:24:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't remember that. But I do remember Jordan saying that even if it > should prove to not be a hoax (highly doubtful) it's inclusion in the tree > should still be given a lot of consideration. And then done, anyway, to iron out platform specific "gotchas" for platforms that the people with the power to say "no" actually _do_ care about. It doesn't matter that the machine has been called "obsolete" by elitists (processor snobs, actually); the source tree will "learn" portability lessons from any port that's integrated. Look at all the crap work that won't have to be done for Merced because of the Alpha port fixing the 64-bitness, and probably only a small amount of the other platform specific code, given that it's not really a totally alien bus structure or totally alien support chip structure for the machines which are currently supported. All ports are good, if they increase portability of the code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19:13:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB7E15360 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA25713; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:12:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYxaWlY; Wed Oct 6 19:12:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22636; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:12:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910070212.TAA22636@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Style Challenge! To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:12:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jobaldwi@vt.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 6, 99 07:44:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As I said, check the archives where this was hashed out earlier. All > > new (English) documentation is supposed to use double spaces. If it > > really bothers people, then I'll write a sed script to go put double > > spaces in everywhere in the older docs as well. > > > > Bothers is maybe too strong. Most of the 'one space after period' people > just don't care all that much. Vi cares. Do a join (J) on these two lines; it will put in two spaces. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19:19:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A916157B6; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06516; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:17:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006480; Wed Oct 6 19:17:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22753; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:17:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910070217.TAA22753@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: kris@hub.freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:17:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@peloton.runet.edu, sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu, skafte@worldgate.ca, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Oct 6, 99 06:18:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > > > MS abandoned porting to the alpha. This means they have no testbed right > > now for running/developing 2000 on a 64-bit chip, like say Merced, I mean > > Itanium. :-) > ^^^^^^^ > Gotta love marketing. I can't wait for the Ercury, the Ickel and the > Utherfordium! They are going to have a problem when they get to the "Alogens"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19:22:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A301F15006 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA84908; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:29:18 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:29:18 +1000 From: John Birrell To: Terry Lambert Cc: "D.M.P." , andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Message-ID: <19991007122917.A83921@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> References: <37FAD45F.9A04C962@mindless.com> <199910070144.SAA21696@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <199910070144.SAA21696@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 01:44:37AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 01:44:37AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. > > > FWIW: > > Name: Palm Vx > Availability: October 4 > Cost: $449 (http://www.palm.com/products/palmvx/index.html) > RAM: 8MB > Network: iRDA > Processor: 68328 <-- Note > Keyboard: Serial (KeySync Palm Keyboard DKP62, $69.00) > > This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. For embedded work, m68k and i386 are still useful. I have local changes to the FreeBSD makefiles to cross build to various targets, including m68k, PPC and sparc. I hope to commit the cross-build changes after David O'Brien reviews the egcs/gcc makefile restructure. Now that I am working for a client with lots of Sparc machines and that they have given me secure access to these outside hours, I can (finally) contribute to FreeBSD/Sparc. I guess that sparc and m68k FreeBSD ports will be like the alpha was - people won't contribute until some of the initial (no-brain) work is done. Unlike the alpha port, though, using a NetBSD kernel for bootstrap purposes is not required. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ john.birrell@opendirectory.com.au To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 19:43:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5C714F96 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29723; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FC0834.10942EB3@mindless.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:40:52 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: <199910070144.SAA21696@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. > > FWIW: > > Name: Palm Vx > Availability: October 4 > Cost: $449 (http://www.palm.com/products/palmvx/index.html) > RAM: 8MB > Network: iRDA > Processor: 68328 <-- Note > Keyboard: Serial (KeySync Palm Keyboard DKP62, $69.00) > > This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. Can a program written for a 680x0 processor run on the 68328? If so, I'd get one and put NetBSD on it just to silence those PalmLinux people. -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 20:28:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 070E81500E for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.37]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4381; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:25:56 -0400 Message-ID: <37FC1444.6D895A4A@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 22:32:20 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "D.M.P." Cc: Terry Lambert , andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) References: <199910070144.SAA21696@usr09.primenet.com> <37FC0834.10942EB3@mindless.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It would seem so... http://ebus.mot-sps.com/ProdCat/psp/0,1250,MC68328~934310090795,00.html at least they share the same documentation. cheers, Pedro. "D.M.P." wrote: > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > > > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > > > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. > > > > FWIW: > > > > Name: Palm Vx > > Availability: October 4 > > Cost: $449 (http://www.palm.com/products/palmvx/index.html) > > RAM: 8MB > > Network: iRDA > > Processor: 68328 <-- Note > > Keyboard: Serial (KeySync Palm Keyboard DKP62, $69.00) > > > > This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. > > Can a program written for a 680x0 processor run on the 68328? If so, > I'd get one and put NetBSD on it just to silence those PalmLinux > people. > > -- > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > the human mind." -- Cicero > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 6 22:18:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B84A14C23 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:18:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-229.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.229]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA03713 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:16:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37FC2CC8.FE003B03@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 00:16:56 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Uptimes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had to reset my BIOS and forgot to set the date. To wit, I started the machine up, logged in, and then ntpdate'd from a local source. Shocking: kris:ninbox: {13} w 12:16AM up 22:40, 4 users, load averages: 1.49, 1.24, 0.89 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT kris v1 - 01Jan98 8 -csh (csh) kris v2 - 11:33PM 41 -csh (csh) kris v9 - 01Jan98 643days ./proxyper kris va - 01Jan98 8 ./rc5des kris:ninbox: {14} -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 3:26:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF8514C25 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 03:26:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA61616; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:25:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:25:25 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "D.M.P." Cc: Terry Lambert , andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) In-Reply-To: <37FC0834.10942EB3@mindless.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Don't count 68k's out just yet. There's quite a few Performa and > > > Quadra systems still in use as firewall boxes or low-traffic mail > > > servers. Just as one would use a 486 for the same jobs with FreeBSD. > > > > FWIW: > > > > Name: Palm Vx > > Availability: October 4 > > Cost: $449 (http://www.palm.com/products/palmvx/index.html) > > RAM: 8MB > > Network: iRDA > > Processor: 68328 <-- Note > > Keyboard: Serial (KeySync Palm Keyboard DKP62, $69.00) > > > > This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. > > Can a program written for a 680x0 processor run on the 68328? If so, > I'd get one and put NetBSD on it just to silence those PalmLinux > people. All the embedded 68xxx processors are made up of: a) ordinary 680x0 core b) internal bus c) a number of peripherials > > -- > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > the human mind." -- Cicero > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 13:46:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hq2.paccar.com (hq2.paccar.com [208.30.11.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44BB15278 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from EricHodel@PACCAR.com) Received: by hq2.paccar.com; id NAA14033; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mistools.misrenton.paccar.com(160.69.1.1) by hq2.paccar.com via smap (4.1) id xma013860; Thu, 7 Oct 99 13:44:45 -0700 Received: by mistools.misrenton.paccar.com id NAA05628; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by misrenmxc1.misrenton.paccar.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <424G1PX0>; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:44:46 -0700 Message-ID: From: Eric Hodel Reply-To: drbrain@magnesium.net To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: People with too much time on their hands Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:44:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k -- Eric Hodel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 14:22:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.gfit.net (ns.gfit.net [209.41.124.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C258814C8F for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Received: from paranor.embt.net (timembt.iinc.com [206.67.169.229]) by mercury.gfit.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA21918 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:25:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991007172106.009a7fe8@mail.embt.com> X-Sender: tembt@mail.embt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:21:06 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Tom Embt Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:44 PM 10/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > >A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k > awesome, i will have to make a freebsd version... Tom Embt tom@embt.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 14:41:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id A831815274; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F8831CD476; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:41:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: drbrain@magnesium.net Cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Eric Hodel wrote: > http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > > A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k This is probably just the result of some minor playing with /usr/ports/graphics/aaview Still looks pretty cool, though. Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 14:50:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6215C1517C for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20430; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:50:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd020343; Thu Oct 7 14:50:28 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05987; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:50:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910072150.OAA05987@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: gryph@mindless.com, tlambert@primenet.com, andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Narvi" at Oct 7, 99 01:25:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > This is enough memory to run a 68x FreeBSD on a Palm Pilot. > > > > Can a program written for a 680x0 processor run on the 68328? If so, > > I'd get one and put NetBSD on it just to silence those PalmLinux > > people. > > All the embedded 68xxx processors are made up of: > a) ordinary 680x0 core > b) internal bus > c) a number of peripherials I think the question was about whether or not it could support paged virtual memory, i.e. does it have an MMU. I think the answer is "yes", because of the "3". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 14:56:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neptune.psn.net (neptune.psn.net [207.211.58.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687DB1517C for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 5042-243.008.popsite.net ([209.224.140.243] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by neptune.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 2.12 #3) id 11ZLVz-0005Ma-00; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:56:04 -0700 Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA72977; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:55:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37FC2CC8.FE003B03@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Kris Kirby Subject: RE: Uptimes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Oct-99 Kris Kirby wrote: > kris v9 - 01Jan98 643days ./proxyper > kris va - 01Jan98 8 ./rc5des I run both of these in the background (they are auto-started by /usr/local/etc/rc.d/[proxyper,rc5des].sh), rather than have them take up a tty. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 17:23: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC979153B5 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10553; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:51:18 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199910072150.OAA05987@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:51:18 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@airnet.net, andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, gryph@mindless.com, (Narvi) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Oct-99 Terry Lambert wrote: > > All the embedded 68xxx processors are made up of: > > a) ordinary 680x0 core > > b) internal bus > > c) a number of peripherials > > I think the question was about whether or not it could support > paged virtual memory, i.e. does it have an MMU. > > I think the answer is "yes", because of the "3". Well providing it isn't an 030EC core.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 19:12:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id DCE3F14E40; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15FA1CD44F; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:12:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Maury Markowitz Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Maury Markowitz wrote: > The week before that (actually three weeks ago now) a single message in a > remote POP mailbox stopped the entire mail system from working. Whenever it > attempted to get mail from that mailbox, the MAPI DLL would start taking up > 99% of the CPU - forever. The machine slowed to a crawl. Now do they > propose that making all mail retrieval go through a single DLL is a good > idea for stability? And why is it that Netscape had no problem reading it > (thus clearing the logjam)? The IT guys had no idea what to do, they wanted > to do a re-install or suggested I use something else for POP because this > sort of thing happened "all the time". There was an article on bugtraq a month or so back which claimed that one of the M$ mail products (probably outlook) would hang like this if it received a message which was fragmented such that the first character in the fragment was a '+' (I think). This sounds like an incredible protocol layering violation if true, but I can't remember whether anyone else replied confirming it. Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 20:17:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5741614A29 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-112.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.112] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA09340; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:17:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37FD624B.897F0DA1@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:17:31 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Will Andrews Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Uptimes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Will Andrews wrote: > > On 07-Oct-99 Kris Kirby wrote: > > kris v9 - 01Jan98 643days ./proxyper > > kris va - 01Jan98 8 ./rc5des > > I run both of these in the background (they are auto-started by > /usr/local/etc/rc.d/[proxyper,rc5des].sh), rather than have them take up a tty. I used to do this too, but certain advantages are to be had with individual ttys. I don't have a permanent connection to the net, I have a dial up. It is therefore advantageous to know when the proxy needs dumping. I also like to suspend or stop rc5des from remote (watch -W is your friend.) I do know the immense risk I run, but I am soon to finish up my firewall rules.... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 20:19:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E85E14A29 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-112.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.112] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA13135; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:18:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37FD62A1.CFF3B784@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:18:57 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drbrain@magnesium.net Cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Hodel wrote: > > http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > > A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k Well, after aalib, what were you expecting? :-) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 7 23:30:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0C415451 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA80180 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:31:39 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:31:39 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Heck With Mac68k, How about G3/G4? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darwin runs based on BSD 4.4. If you have been paying real close attention you know that Apple people have talked about using FreeBSD code. ( I use to search their sight and come back with hits for FreeBSD this and that. ) I know Darwin runs a Mach microkernel. It would seem to me that one could build FreeBSD source under the Mach kernel using whatever compiler runs on Darwin to create a pseudo port of FreeBSD that uses -stable with a Mach kernel. Maybe using a NetBSD kernel would be even better. It seems like one would need a cpu = G3 config option once all the tools are built and away you go. Kinda like the great aout-to-elf conversion. I know its not _that_ easy. I would think it is easier than starting from scratch. Are there any Mac owners out there crazy enough to do this? I know Jordan might not spend any effort to make it happen. If someone gave it to him on a silver platter I bet he wouldn't say no. :) Why would _I_ want such a thing? Choice and diversity is my reason. Anything to break the dominant Wintel paradigm is good with me. Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 6:36:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6751D14E61 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15058; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:36:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Dave Walton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: praise be to Torvalds? In-Reply-To: <19990929004056.2942.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org can they do that? I thought the GPL strictly prohibits extra "conditions" like the CPSL. of course who's to say the GPL would hold up in court. I'm rather amused.... I hope I find someone running one of these boxes...I'll change everything back to "daemon. kill, and abort" ;) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Dave Walton wrote: > > This is cute. Brings a whole new meaning to the concept of > operating system holy wars. But why do you suppose they didn't > base this project on BSD? We have such an adorable mascot! > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/19990927/tc/19990927332.html > > > Dave > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 6:49:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08CBD14FEF for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15150; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:48:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kirby , Walter Campbell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange reboots In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991005000224.04249100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org WOw, didn;t know this, that explains the crashes on my machine... I'll have to compile another kernel and reboot. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Usually, this is due to hardware, but sometimes it isn't. I discovered, > by accident, that failing to compile FreeBSD 2.2.7 or 2.2.8 with > the ATAPI_STATIC option would cause random reboots on some of our > systems. Probably a timing problem in the disk code. Never found out > what the race condition was, but did solve the problem by compiling > the kernel with different options. > > --Brett > > At 03:51 PM 10/4/99 -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: > > >Walter Campbell wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Andreas Berg wrote: > > > > > > > I recently installed FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE (990926-snapshot). The reason I > > > > upgraded was that my old 3.2-STABLE got unstable and rebooted a little now > > > > and then, just like it felt like it. Now, a couple of hours after the > > > > installation of 3.3-STABLE, I get the same strange phenomenon, the box just > > > > reboots. > > > > > > > I've had the same problems...all due to hardware. Machine would randomly > > > reboot about once a week, then once every two days or so, finally once a > > > day. Tried upgrading hte software, checked for possible heat problems, > > > checked the RAM, all fine...Disabled the L2 cache, haven't had a single > > > problem since (unless you count the machine room getting flooded by > > > Hurricane Floyd). Most unusual things can be traced down to hardware > > > problems. > > > >Ah, now that's a great way to get replacement parts / better equipment. > >But how to get the firehose into the machine room.... > > > >-- > >Kris Kirby > > > >------------------------------------------- > >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 7:52: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C141F14D7D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03770 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:51:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:51:50 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yesterday, I was speaking over dinner with a fellow who does MIS for the government of a large and populous state. I talked to him about my deployment of Berkeley UNIX at client sites, and happened to mention that, currently, FreeBSD is being targeted primarily if not exclusively at the server market. He made some interesting points about what happens when one attempts to position an operating system as being exclusively for use on a server. I asked him if I could paraphrase his remarks online, and he agreed. Here's what he said, based on my scribblings. "Targeting the server only is a death wish. Novell tried, and they're being beaten bloody by NT. Banyan tried -- they even used UNIX -- and never became popular in the first place even though they were years ahead of everyone. Microsoft even failed with LAN Manager. FreeBSD will fail at this too; everyone will go to Linux whether it's better or not. "The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for servers, the same thing will happen to it." Comments? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 9:46:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EE9414EFA for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA81028; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:48:07 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: s8-37-26.student.washington.edu: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:48:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >"Targeting the server only is a death wish. Novell tried, and they're being Internet? >beaten bloody by NT. Banyan tried -- they even used UNIX -- and never >became popular in the first place even though they were years ahead of >everyone. Microsoft even failed with LAN Manager. FreeBSD will fail at this Internet? >too; everyone will go to Linux whether it's better or not. Linux ain't bad. And if it is the evil some say it is, then it will also fall to something better. >"The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate >software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. >Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and No need for an NT admin. Bullshit. That is the biggest myth of NT. And if the workload requires a staff of six, then what diff does it make if one person is Unix and 5 do help desk. Who wants to pay for licenses? Who wants to pay for down time? Downtime in manufacturing for example costs even small companies MILLIONS each day. The cost of _any_ admin is trivial compared to this. Seperate software? You mean like a seperate telnetd. Or maybe a seperate IIS. Or maybe a seperate set of pointing and clicking and rebooting for each install instead of dropping in a set of rc files. >then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And >they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock >solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The >operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a >few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure If this was true, Unix would bo on the desktop already. >everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be >able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now Also bullshit. >if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because >Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. And it does run, for a couple days. Well there you go. The people this guy works for made the wrong decision based on dubious criteria. Do these people really think the family van is going to work as well on the race track as getting groceries? >The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be >server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for >servers, the same thing will happen to it." What about the cost of the software? Was that a factor? Was the software really any good? What about the internet and it's protocols. Did companies adapt to that? Is it possible that perhaps alllllllll of the issues aren't really shown here so that Brett can beat us up some more about how fucked up we all are? Back to gloom and doom, Brett? I know you couldn't stay away from it for very long. Yes, you posted some techie stuff that you rarely seemed to post before. You seemed to be taking a different tack. I knew you were just keeping your foot in the door so you could perpetuate your doomsaying at a later date. Brett, I really think you should jump ship now so that when FreeBSD hits the Davey Jones' locker you can be safe. Oh, and FreeBSD does the desktop as good as any unix but not as good as Mac or Windows. So what? Thank You, | http://students.washington.edu/jcwells Jason Wells | "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither | freedom nor security." - Benjamin Franklin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 11:24:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB3D1583C for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05808; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008111822.0453a530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:23:04 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:48 PM 10/8/99 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >"Targeting the server only is a death wish. Novell tried, and they're being > >Internet? If I construe your comment above correctly, you mean to say that the rise of the Internet hurt Novell, not its server-only positioning. But if this were so, why is NT prospering? NetWare, like NT, supported NFS and TCP/IP long before the Internet gathered speed as a phenomenon. > >beaten bloody by NT. Banyan tried -- they even used UNIX -- and never > >became popular in the first place even though they were years ahead of > >everyone. Microsoft even failed with LAN Manager. FreeBSD will fail at this > >Internet? See above. > >too; everyone will go to Linux whether it's better or not. > >Linux ain't bad. And if it is the evil some say it is, then it will also >fall to something better. Well, as you know, I personally believe that Linux is a problem because, being licensed under the GPL, it is part of a destructive agenda. But the fellow with whom I was speaking didn't know much about the GPL, its motivations, or its effects. He thought that Linux was inferior to FreeBSD because it was not based on the same time-tested technology and was less reliable and stable. But he seems to think that the desire of Linux developers to challenge Microsoft on the desktop is key to its future success. > >"The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate > >software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. > >Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and > >No need for an NT admin. Bullshit. That is the biggest myth of NT. I think that what he was saying was that there was no need for a SEPARATE NT admin. And I can see his point: CNEs in NetWare shops were treated like gods and gurus and had to have specialized training. Institutions are rankled by "priesthoods." >And if >the workload requires a staff of six, then what diff does it make if one >person is Unix and 5 do help desk. Because the "server administrator" must be a separate person who is more specialized and more expensive. (Specialists cost more.) And if there's only one, there's no backup for him or her, so you really must have more than one. >Who wants to pay for licenses? Who wants to pay for down time? Downtime in >manufacturing for example costs even small companies MILLIONS each day. >The cost of _any_ admin is trivial compared to this. Not from a company's standpoint. Mandatory benefits and overhead can make the cost of an additional employee at least double his or her salary. NT isn't cheap, but still doesn't cost as much as more bodies. So, NT seems more economical in both the short and long terms. > >then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And > >they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock > >solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The > >operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a > >few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure > >If this was true, Unix would bo on the desktop already. Alas, NT has beaten it there, except in certain market niches. (Stock traders have been using Sun workstations for years.) And Linux is close behind. This fellow's point, however, is that FreeBSD becomes irrelevant if it stays a server-only OS, because it does not satisfy the burning desire for a "single" solution (or, actually, a family of very closely related solutions built upon the same code base). > >if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because > >Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. > >And it does run, for a couple days. True. But companies value standardization of business processes and procedures -- as well as hardware and software -- so much that they will sacrifice a lot to get it. Including reliability. >Well there you go. The people this guy works for made the wrong decision >based on dubious criteria. He agrees that they made the wrong decision, but understands their criteria. And I do too. >Do these people really think the family van is >going to work as well on the race track as getting groceries? No, but they both use many of the same parts. They use very similar engines; it's the tuning and the peripherals that are different. > >The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be > >server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for > >servers, the same thing will happen to it." > >What about the cost of the software? Was that a factor? Linux will solve that for these people. When it's fit for the desktop, it stands to do very well. >Was the software >really any good? What about the internet and it's protocols. Did companies >adapt to that? All of the important Internet protocols are available on NT. Yes, the implementations are suboptimal, insecure, and often a bit incompatible, but they're close enough for most customers. I only get the chance to convert them to UNIX after they've been bitten -- hard -- by security holes and proprietary lock-ins. And, even then, they are in denial and need a hard sell. >Is it possible that perhaps alllllllll of the issues aren't >really shown here What other issues do you think are important? >so that Brett can beat us up some more about how fucked >up we all are? "Beat people up?" (He says, quoting from the famous "Tai Kwan Leep" comedy sketch by The Frantics. See the transcription at http://saturn.math.uaa.alaska.edu/~royce/Funny/leep.html or the MP3 at http://linux11.ma.utexas.edu/users/pgoetz/Tai.Kwan.Leap.mp3 to get the reference. The transcription just can't do these comedic geniuses justice.) Seriously, my goal isn't to beat anyone up. That benefits no one. But it's always useful to bring some good points to light. >Back to gloom and doom, Brett? I know you couldn't stay away from it for >very long. No, but maybe useful information that might lead to a minor course correction. Why try to quell discussion when the issue seems to be important to FreeBSD's future? >Brett, I really think you should jump ship now so that when FreeBSD hits >the Davey Jones' locker you can be safe. I don't think that it's rational to jump ship when you see an iceberg in the distance -- especially when there's plenty of time to steer clear. You might say that I'm calling from the crow's nest well in advance. >Oh, and FreeBSD does the desktop as good as any unix but not as good as >Mac or Windows. Yes, but NOBODY KNOWS IT! And so they're foregoing FreeBSD for other things. Which is a shame. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 11:30:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303DE15853 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA87929; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:29:59 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Yesterday, I was speaking over dinner with a fellow who does MIS for the > government of a large and populous state. I talked to him about my > deployment of Berkeley UNIX at client sites, and happened to mention that, > currently, FreeBSD is being targeted primarily if not exclusively at the > server market. > > He made some interesting points about what happens when one attempts to > position an operating system as being exclusively for use on a server. I > asked him if I could paraphrase his remarks online, and he agreed. Here's > what he said, based on my scribblings. Before I comment on these comments, I believe everyone involved in FreeBSD would love to see FreeBSD be much more comparable to Windows ( support, apps, drivers, etc ) in the desktop world. However being that resources are finite then tough decisions must be made. FreeBSD comes from a strong server background and chose ( I believe correctly ) to play to that strength. That being said it has not totally forgot the desktop market ( that's just not the main focus ). I've been running FreeBSD on my desktop at work ( as well as servers ) and I'm very happy. > > "Targeting the server only is a death wish. Novell tried, and they're being > beaten bloody by NT. Banyan tried -- they even used UNIX -- and never > became popular in the first place even though they were years ahead of > everyone. Microsoft even failed with LAN Manager. FreeBSD will fail at this > too; everyone will go to Linux whether it's better or not. To compare Novell's problems with FreeBSD isn't really 1:1 I believe. As I see it Novell blew it because it took them way too long to switch to IP. Inspite of that fact Novell still has a pretty healthy install base, and most Novell admin.'s would probably tell you they would like to continue to use it, but Novell didn't catch up to the Internet age fast enough. I would think that if you were to launch a large survey to find out from (ex) Novell admins why they switched none of them would mention anything that dealt with desktop issues. > > "The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate > software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. An IS person said this? Wow, where did this person go to school, I'll be sure to avoid it. Seriously, having an IS department is a fact of business. I would like to be able to do all my own work when my car breaks down, but that's not always realistic. Now I know there are some things I can do ( replace a battery, starter, etc ) but some things are either beyond me or just aren't worth the time/effort for me to do it myself ( rebuild the engine ). So some issues I fix myself, others go to the shop to be fixed. The same is true of working on computers. 4 or so years ago I worked in an IS department of some 12 people or so. For the most part everyone had there specialty. I did the bulk of the end user PC support, others dealt with phone issues, VMS admin, Unix admin, Promis programmers, etc. No one in that company ever thought twice about having that group of people ( the IS dept ). We made things happen and the rest of the company knew it. > Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and > then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And Nothing has changed here. If they are going to have a server OS they will need someone who knows who to keep it going, that's true of NT, VMS, unix, Novell, any NOS will need someone who knows it. If we were expand on this this idea your friend presented then we should see fundamental changes in things like Oracle. Using the idea that people are tired of paying big bucks for people who know what they are doing then everyone will dump Oracle and go to some database that anyone can admin, like say Access for instance. Of course they may have issues with Access, like allowing dozens of systems to access it at the same time, support for transactions, scaling to have hundreds of megabytes of data. Access doesn't really do those things very well, but you would save money by not having to hire those expensive people to come set it up and take care of it :-) So far none of this has proved that pressing support for desktop like features ( training a monkey to use it ) supports your friends argument. > they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock > solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The I would disagree here also. If this were the case OS/2 would have 100% of the desktop market. Just because something it more "advanced" doesn't mean that it will win ( see my point about OS/2 ? ). Determining if a product will be successful has other issues besides being the most advanced product. Microsoft has learned this point well, they've done their homework and hire people who know how to do "business", not so much computers. On this point you do have to give Microsoft some credit, because of them and Apple the computer has become more assessable to more and more people. The unix world is racing towards the center to gain ease of use, the windows world is racing towards the center to gain stability ( not unlike politicians racing to the center as the election gets closer ). It remains to be seen who will win. Unix has been making bigger leaps than windows I think, but there really is still quite a bit of distance to go. NT on the other side has a lot of baggage that is making it hard to move towards the center. > operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a Now this I agree with. I would love to have an OS that will run everything for me. It remains to be seen if this will ever happen. > few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure > everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be > able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now > if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because The type of people who only deal with "desktop" systems aren't in jobs to work on "servers", they are there to actually work on company issues, not internal items. It's simply not possible to have one generic type of person and expect them to fill every possible position. I would hate to see what would happen if my work told I now also had to do all of the accounting, I'm afraid my two courses in accounting in college just wouldn't be enough for me to do that job well. The same is true of expecting every desktop user to be able to take managing a "server". Now about this statement about NT taking over and security. This makes me seriously question your friend. All operating systems having security issues. Unix has been around for along time and has spent a lot of time cleaning things up. NT doesn't have as much history, but it to is trying to clean things up. Aside from the debate as to the ability of MS to clean up NT's security issues, the fact is that both NT and unix have had issues. Some argue that NT's default security is crummy ( and I would agree with them ), but on the other side, how many Linux distro's don't have shadow passwords enabled by default? I believe that part of the reason that NT has not taken over in the NOS market is because of security issues, but to blame it entirely on that shows a lack of understanding, IMHO. > Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. > The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be > server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for > servers, the same thing will happen to it." This may or may not be true, but mice show up when I leave food out, but I can't create mice by leaving food out. I don't believe that the arguments of your friend point to anything that could be considered constructive. Having said that I believe there are some very valid arguments for increased desktop support, it's just that your friend didn't come up with any of them. In all fairness I believe that the reason your friend see's things this way is because of his experiences and issues. From his point of view the items he brings up may be very true, however my experiences have obviously been very different than his. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 11:32:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B137C150FD for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16717; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016664; Fri Oct 8 11:32:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07829; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:32:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910081832.LAA07829@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:32:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, kris@airnet.net, andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, gryph@mindless.com, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Connor" at Oct 8, 99 09:51:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 07-Oct-99 Terry Lambert wrote: > > > All the embedded 68xxx processors are made up of: > > > a) ordinary 680x0 core > > > b) internal bus > > > c) a number of peripherials > > > > I think the question was about whether or not it could support > > paged virtual memory, i.e. does it have an MMU. > > > > I think the answer is "yes", because of the "3". > > Well providing it isn't an 030EC core.. http://www.mot-sps.com/products/microprocessors/32_bit/mc68ez328.html 8-(. It's an EZ, since it can handle more than 2M of DRAM. But it has "Programmable Memory Access", which is apparently Motorolla's way of disguising the fact that it doesn't have an MMU. The Palm Pilot itself may include an MMU. The processor supports supervisor mode based memory block protection. THis could be abused as if the chip were an Alpha, MIPS, or 386 (which doesn't support write protect in supervisor mode) to implement paged memory management in software, I think, but you'd be faulting a lot in order to handle and restart the request in user mode code. 8-(. I also couldn't find out whether or not MOPSW (move processor status word) was a protected instruction in user m0ode or not. If not (it isn't on the vanilla MC68000), then the hardware would be incapable of supporting a real virtual machine, as the original Amiga's can attest. It looks like the Palm Linux guys, if they are doing anything, are running with SVR3.2/x86 Xenix 2.x non-paged memory management, if they are running at all, unless I'm really missing the boat. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 11:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3021581F for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21214; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:43:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd021193; Fri Oct 8 11:43:37 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08439; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:43:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910081843.LAA08439@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:43:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 8, 99 08:51:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yesterday, I was speaking over dinner with a fellow who does MIS for the > government of a large and populous state. I talked to him about my > deployment of Berkeley UNIX at client sites, and happened to mention that, > currently, FreeBSD is being targeted primarily if not exclusively at the > server market. [ ... ] > Comments? > > --Brett This probably belongs on Advocacy. The invitation for comments looks like "and I'll whup the man what says it ain't so" -- I think the article itself is sufficient solicitation. It would be nice if the original guy posted it, such that the message was not damned in some small minds by the messenger. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 13:45:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5704214D29 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:45:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05835; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:08:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002546; Fri Oct 8 12:04:08 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09205; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910081903.MAA09205@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Oct 8, 99 09:48:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >"The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate > >software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. > >Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and > > No need for an NT admin. Bullshit. That is the biggest myth of NT. And if > the workload requires a staff of six, then what diff does it make if one > person is Unix and 5 do help desk. He said "seperate experts", not "no experts". I think the point was that Windows training is transferrable between their server and desktop operating systems. I believe that this is true, and that one of the biggest reasons this is true is "InstallShield". > >then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And > >they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock > >solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The > >operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a > >few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure > > If this was true, Unix would bo on the desktop already. UNIX is not on the desktop because of Kanwahl Rheki, when he was at Novell, deciding to "deemphasize the desktop". I was in the conference room on the first floor of the Novell Sandy, Utah office off the 106th south exit off Interstate 15, where I worked for Novell, when this announcement was made regarding UnixWare. Ray Noorda (then CEO of Novell) was in the room too, watching how this preannouncement would play to the engineering staff, as a predictor of press reaction. I personally asked the question "If people aren't going to be running UnixWare on their desktops, wat _Novell_ operating system will they be running on their desktops?". Rheki's answer was "They won't be running a Novell OS, they'll be running Windows". To this answer, Ray Noorda got up and stormed out of the room; soon afterwards, Rheki "left to pursue other opportunities"; but the damage of the deemphasis had already been done. UNIX needs a vendor with *BALLS* to hit the desktop, but I firmly believe that the desktop can be hit. Novell was a mere 16 Million dollar investment from this at one point, and gave up out of fear of Microsoft. UNIX also needs an ABI unification, where you can turn frigging "vendor extensions" *OFF* and be guaranteed of running across all platforms. I believe the first Free UNIX that standardizes on an ABI in alignment with a commercial vendor could be enough to trigger a cascade of UNIX unification: a "shot heard 'round the world". > >everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be > >able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now > > Also bullshit. The training barrier we are talking about here is the ability to use a common interface on both desktop and server platforms. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to perform complex operations using those interfaces. In most cases, the interfaces explicitly limit your range of choices, by default, to those which will work for 95% of users. This doesn't totally shut out "power users", but it does shut out the barrier to usage called "complexity" that most people can't get their heads around. > Oh, and FreeBSD does the desktop as good as any unix but not as good as > Mac or Windows. So what? I think the thesis, that of needing to support the desktp to win the server war, is a valid one. It certainly rings true with my professional experience, both at Novell, USL, and elsewhere. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14: 0:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34171530D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15598; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:00:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:00:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Terry Lambert Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? In-Reply-To: <199910081903.MAA09205@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > [snip of everything that's gone before] There's an interesting article at XML.com. It's a talk that Tim O'Reilly gave in Tokyo at a Linux convention. In the article he points out that he believes there's a new revolution in computing going on - not software, not hardware, but a shift to web sites as the "killer app" and that all of the focus of the Linux users on "beating MS at the desktop" is totally misplaced when they should be focusing on what is to come. http://xml.com/pub/1999/10/tokyo.html Anyway, I think this is a nice contrast to what Brett normally talks about (not focusing solely on the server and taking on the desktop) - whether it has any merits I'll leave to you the reader. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:14:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.gfit.net (ns.gfit.net [209.41.124.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EE314F58 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Received: from paranor.embt.net (timembt.iinc.com [206.67.169.229]) by mercury.gfit.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA12176 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:18:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19991008171430.00abc170@mail.embt.com> X-Sender: tembt@mail.embt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:14:30 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Tom Embt Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:44 PM 10/7/99 -0700, you wrote: >http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > >A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k > >-- >Eric Hodel > The inevitable...(I couldn't resist) http://www.embt.com/tom/FreeBSD/textlogo1.html ~70K, made with PHP3 Tom Embt ICQ UIN: 11245398 tom@embt.com d:-)> ------------------------------------------------------------------ "You're one of those condescending Unix computer users!" "Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer" - Dilbert. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:20:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4AF14F3F for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.38]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5F56; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:19:49 -0400 Message-ID: <37FE1596.ACDA5DEE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 11:02:30 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We have good people, and they are working on what they do best. If we wanted to do intensive client side work, then we would have to find *other* people to do it because AFAIK our hands are full. Throwing away money and resources to the client is a nonsense. Have you installed linux on a laptop? Do you really think that other platforms (Redhat, for example) with much more resources than we have will actually displace M$ ? If this happens, which I sincerely doubt, it will be in many years. Unix is not meant for simple minded users. OTOH, all the efforts that RH and other companies are doing to improve X translate directly to us. We have the opportunity to see how they fall (GGI for example) and redo things better . Quite honestly Brett, I think you could better try to convince Corel, Oracle, IBM, and SGI that FreeBSD is the way to go for their server products. There's nothing that people on this list can do to improve our client positioning. cheers, Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > Yesterday, I was speaking over dinner with a fellow who does MIS for the > government of a large and populous state. I talked to him about my > deployment of Berkeley UNIX at client sites, and happened to mention that, > currently, FreeBSD is being targeted primarily if not exclusively at the > server market. > > He made some interesting points about what happens when one attempts to > position an operating system as being exclusively for use on a server. I > asked him if I could paraphrase his remarks online, and he agreed. Here's > what he said, based on my scribblings. > > "Targeting the server only is a death wish. Novell tried, and they're being > beaten bloody by NT. Banyan tried -- they even used UNIX -- and never > became popular in the first place even though they were years ahead of > everyone. Microsoft even failed with LAN Manager. FreeBSD will fail at this > too; everyone will go to Linux whether it's better or not. > > "The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate > software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. > Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and > then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And > they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock > solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The > operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a > few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure > everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be > able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now > if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because > Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. > The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be > server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for > servers, the same thing will happen to it." > > Comments? > > --Brett > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:29: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B6B14EA3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07530; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:28:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:28:37 -0600 To: Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:29 PM 10/8/99 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > Before I comment on these comments, I believe everyone involved in >FreeBSD would love to see FreeBSD be much more comparable to Windows ( >support, apps, drivers, etc ) in the desktop world. However being that >resources are finite then tough decisions must be made. It is true that resources are finite. But as FreeBSD grows in applicability, the pool of resources available for its development will also expand. > FreeBSD comes >from a strong server background and chose ( I believe correctly ) to >play to that strength. That being said it has not totally forgot the >desktop market ( that's just not the main focus ). I've been running >FreeBSD on my desktop at work ( as well as servers ) and I'm very happy. I run it on several desktops and am happy with it too. But if it is to reach the mainstream, it mustn't CLAIM that it's designed only for servers! If it does, it is literally telling the world it has limitations it does not really have. And, seeing that Linux does not claim such limitations, users will choose Linux. I'm reminded of the quote from Richard Bach's "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" -- "Argue for your limitations, and you get to keep them." >To compare Novell's problems with FreeBSD isn't really 1:1 I believe. No analogy is perfect. NetWare, in fact, was in worse shape because it really could NOT be changed to address the desktop. The irony is that FreeBSD CAN, but is telling the world that it cannot or will not. >As I see it Novell blew it because it took them way too long to switch >to IP. They actually had NFS before the Internet became privatized; they could handle clients which used IP. And routing of IPX wasn't a problem; Cisco supported it VERY early on. Print service was available to IP clients too. So, the two main things that Netware did -- file and print services -- were covered. Web service came as an NLM as soon as the Web began to grow. Netscape's Commerce Server for Netware is quite good, I'm told. > Inspite of that fact Novell still has a pretty healthy install >base, and most Novell admin.'s would probably tell you they would like >to continue to use it, but Novell didn't catch up to the Internet age >fast enough. I would think that if you were to launch a large survey to >find out from (ex) Novell admins why they switched none of them would >mention anything that dealt with desktop issues. That's because NetWare could NOT work on the desktop. But if they switched their servers to NT, customers could run the same thing on the server as on the clients. That was Microsoft's promise, and it was just what the admins wanted to hear. Microsoft won big. > > "The trouble is that no one wants to have separate training, separate > > software, separate configuration, or separate experts for the server. > > An IS person said this? Not just one IS person -- LOTS of them. Stewart Alsop said it at the Senate's hearings on Microsoft. Gates says it regularly in his pitches to CIOs and IS people, and they like what they hear. > Wow, where did this person go to school, I'll >be sure to avoid it. Seriously, having an IS department is a fact of >business. Of course it is! Using the same OS on the client and the server does not and should not eliminate the IS department. But it does make its work MUCH easier. > > Companies are tired of paying a CNE 'guru' big bucks to fix NetWare and > > then keeping a whole separate staff around to support DOS and Windows. And > > Nothing has changed here. If they are going to have a server OS they >will need someone who knows who to keep it going, that's true of NT, >VMS, unix, Novell, any NOS will need someone who knows it. Agreed. But it is easier to find that expertise, and keep it around in house, when there are fewer OSes to support. The depth of expertise is also likely to be greater. And problems which might arise because the "server expert" doesn't understand the client -- or vice versa -- go away! It's really tremendously appealing. I see this desire constantly at the sites where I consult. > > they want their workstations to act like servers: fast, efficient, and rock > > solid. They don't want to see these traits limited to the server! The > > I would disagree here also. If this were the case OS/2 would have 100% >of the desktop market. OS/2 failed for many reasons. It emulated Windows, which killed native application development; it wasn't multiuser, which limited its security paradigm and required access controls to be "glued on" after the fact; the event handling was single-threaded (primarily due to the ignorance of Microsoft developers in its early days, but the problem was never corrected); it was poorly marketed; the press and system vendors were bullied by Microsoft into shunning it; and there were factions within IBM itself which sought to kill it in favor of AIX, Windows, or NT. > Just because something it more "advanced" >doesn't mean that it will win ( see my point about OS/2 ? ). OS/2 is advanced in some ways (particularly the Workplace Shell GUI), but has always been behind the curve in others. >Determining if a product will be successful has other issues besides >being the most advanced product. Microsoft has learned this point well, >they've done their homework and hire people who know how to do >"business", not so much computers. Which brings us back around to what CIOs and IS managers want: one OS on the desktop and the server. > On this point you do have to give Microsoft some credit, because of >them and Apple the computer has become more assessable to more and more >people. The unix world is racing towards the center to gain ease of >use, the windows world is racing towards the center to gain stability ( >not unlike politicians racing to the center as the election gets closer >). It remains to be seen who will win. Unix has been making bigger >leaps than windows I think, but there really is still quite a bit of >distance to go. NT on the other side has a lot of baggage that is >making it hard to move towards the center. I'm not sure what you mean by "the center" in the analogy above. Could you elaborate? > > operating system that everybody wants will run on everything, maybe with a > > Now this I agree with. I would love to have an OS that will run >everything for me. Me too! This is the big brass ring that NT and Linux are going for. FreeBSD should be in the running for it as well, since it has advantages over both. > > few tweaks for what it's doing, and will be reliable, fast, and secure > > everywhere. And if you know how to fix the desktop machine, you will be > > able to work on the server too. NT would have taken over the world by now > > if it weren't so insecure. It took over my organization just because > > The type of people who only deal with "desktop" systems aren't in jobs >to work on "servers", they are there to actually work on company issues, >not internal items. It's simply not possible to have one generic type >of person and expect them to fill every possible position. People will always specialize. But the less disjoint we make the skill sets required to manage the client and the server, the more we benefit. Less retraining, less confusion, less redundant staffing, better use of people's time -- even better career paths, as people move more easily from the help desk to serious administration. >I would hate >to see what would happen if my work told I now also had to do all of the >accounting, I'm afraid my two courses in accounting in college just >wouldn't be enough for me to do that job well. The same is true of >expecting every desktop user to be able to take managing a "server". Whoa; let's be realistic here. We wouldn't expect every USER to manage a server; however, it's a big plus if the knowledge used to manage a desktop is directly applicable to the server and vice versa. Let's consider an example. To manage the IP stack on a Windows client, you have to know the commands "winipcfg" and "route print" -- plus all their idiosyncrasies and command line switches. You also need to know your way around the Network Control Panel applet -- for example, that you should ignore Microsoft's annoying messages which state that the network is "not complete" if you turn off NetBIOS. (Leaving NetBIOS on is actually a big security risk, so Microsoft's messages goad administrators into making clients insecure. You have to KNOW that the system will work better if you ignore the message. MCSEs, as a rule, do not.) On a UNIX server, you might use "ifconfig -a" and "netstat -r" (which also have their own peculiarities) to manage IP configuration and routing. There are also bunches of daemons to know about, including inetd (which may or may not be serving as a front end for the others). Wouldn't it be nice to teach your network admins one set of commands, rather than requiring them to speak (and be trained in) multiple dialects? I must admit that I get some consulting hours due to this Tower of Babel, but I'd rather be doing other things. > Now about this statement about NT taking over and security. This makes >me seriously question your friend. All operating systems having >security issues. Unix has been around for along time and has spent a >lot of time cleaning things up. NT doesn't have as much history, but it >to is trying to clean things up. Aside from the debate as to the >ability of MS to clean up NT's security issues, the fact is that both NT >and unix have had issues. Some argue that NT's default security is >crummy ( and I would agree with them ), but on the other side, how many >Linux distro's don't have shadow passwords enabled by default? This is one of the reason I favor the BSDs. I very much like the way that OpenBSD is super-secure by default, for example. > I believe that part of the reason that NT has not taken over in the NOS >market is because of security issues, but to blame it entirely on that >shows a lack of understanding, IMHO. When I'm out in the field, I hear what my clients have to say. Security is far and away the BIGGEST reason NT has not taken over. It dominates every other issue. > > Microsoft *promised* that it would run on both the server and the desktop. > > The OS graveyard is littered with the bones of OSes that wanted to be > > server-only. If FreeBSD is going to make itself look like it's only for > > servers, the same thing will happen to it." > > This may or may not be true, but mice show up when I leave food out, >but I can't create mice by leaving food out. You don't need to create the mice; there are PLENTY out there already! And if you feed them, they'll create more for you. ;-) >I don't believe that the >arguments of your friend point to anything that could be considered >constructive. Having said that I believe there are some very valid >arguments for increased desktop support, it's just that your friend >didn't come up with any of them. What arguments for desktop support do YOU believe are valid? > In all fairness I believe that the reason your friend see's things this >way is because of his experiences and issues. From his point of view >the items he brings up may be very true, however my experiences have >obviously been very different than his. As always, different strokes for different folks. But I think that all of the evidence points back to the same thing: Forsaking the desktop is not a good policy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:37:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44B514CBF for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07625; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008153040.044486e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:37:07 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910081843.LAA08439@usr07.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:43 PM 10/8/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >This probably belongs on Advocacy. Maybe. However, the last time I mentioned something like this on -advocacy, I was flamed for being "off topic!" So, I decided to post to -chat, where no one could make that accusation. >The invitation for comments looks like "and I'll whup the man what >says it ain't so" -- I think the article itself is sufficient >solicitation. I'm not looking to "whup the man who says it ain't so," but I would like to hear if there are strong arguments on the other side. >It would be nice if the original guy posted it, I asked him to. But as a government employee, he said that doing that would get him in hot water! He told me to feel free to post an approximation of what he said, so long as I didn't post it under his name. >such that the >message was not damned in some small minds by the messenger. Am I such a bad person to serve as the messenger? Yes, I have said some controversial things here in the past, and that may have rubbed a few people the wrong way. But I think that folks will agree that I mean well, even if I have ideas that they sometimes consider to be odd. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:38:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CC714F50 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA23600; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:38:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:38:12 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Message-ID: <19991008163812.H20768@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 03:28:37PM -0600, a little birdie told me that Brett Glass remarked > > It is true that resources are finite. But as FreeBSD grows in applicability, > the pool of resources available for its development will also expand. And someone in that then-grown pool will care about the desktop in a personal way, and will work to improve it, and solve the problem. Right now, nobody (or very few people) take the desktop personally, so nothing will get done because nobody cares enough to do it. 'Because it has to be done' is nowhere near as big an incentive as 'I want to do this'. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:49:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812FB14E06 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07732; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:49:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008154001.043f3220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:49:31 -0600 To: Brett Taylor , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199910081903.MAA09205@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, thank you for pointing out that speech. It bring up some good points. O'Reilly's remarks are also consistent with what I'm saying. In his speech, he advocates the use of the Web browser *as* a desktop environment, which is fine! (Netscape had the same idea long before Tim did, and the concept scared Microsoft silly.) It'd certainly be better than Yet Another X Window Manager. But what is that web-browser-cum-GUI-cum-desktop going to run on? (There has to be an underlying OS, after all.) Why not let it be BSD? It might be one good way for FreeBSD to invade the desktop without just mimicking what Linux and GNOME are doing. --Brett At 05:00 PM 10/8/99 -0400, Brett Taylor wrote: >Hi, > > > [snip of everything that's gone before] > >There's an interesting article at XML.com. It's a talk that Tim O'Reilly >gave in Tokyo at a Linux convention. In the article he points out that he >believes there's a new revolution in computing going on - not software, >not hardware, but a shift to web sites as the "killer app" and that all of >the focus of the Linux users on "beating MS at the desktop" is totally >misplaced when they should be focusing on what is to come. > > http://xml.com/pub/1999/10/tokyo.html > >Anyway, I think this is a nice contrast to what Brett normally talks about >(not focusing solely on the server and taking on the desktop) - whether it >has any merits I'll leave to you the reader. :-) > >Brett >***************************************************** >Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * >Dept of Chem and Physics * >Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * >Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * >Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * >***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:51:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po9.andrew.cmu.edu (PO9.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D41814E06 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po9.andrew.cmu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23613; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix6.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix6.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix6.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.unix6.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4rzaRDa00Uw_1CoKk0@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:51:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Valentino Crimi To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008111822.0453a530@localhost> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008111822.0453a530@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The question in my mind, though, is: "What can one add to the kernel to make FreeBSD a better desktop environment?" And the answer, is... nothing (almost). The OS's job is to get mouse and keyboard clicks to the appropriate programs, manage their resources, and otherwise let the number crunchers keep crunching, and the netscapes keeps scaping. Not a single new kernel feature or utility is really going to change the fact that 99% of the Desktop "experience" is up to the Gnome/KDE guys. In terms of code, FreeBSD is fairly well latched onto Linux's train of development as far as X and window managers go.. if anything, FreeBSD can at least state that they are commited to keeping KDE and Gnome well-ported and up to date, and have stated support for the programs (which I feel already exists) which Desktop users may wish to use. Marketing and visibility, Brett, are your cup of tea, and maybe you should go about and state the following things: A excellent kernel for servers can be just as good for desktops. At the kernel level, so long as you don't attempt to do things like bring X or OpenGL into the kernel and shoot robustness in the head you work on what is essentially 'server' stuff, the better your networking code, the better your paging code, etc, the better you'll run as a Desktop. Desktop is -ALL- about KDE/Gnome, FreeBSD's ports people are committed to staying current with the latest in those group's development, the groups themselves are aware of portability. And an X desktop on FreeBSD looks exactly the same as an X Desktop on Linux. And the work that goes into making networking and vm operations more efficient will pay off. The job of the FreeBSD group is to make the best underlying OS possible. There aren't nearly enough commiters to make the WordProcessors, spreadsheets, cute window managers and graphical mp3 players the world wants. Go into the ports tree, though, and they're all there for you. FreeBSD is doing all it can to be the best Desktop unix system possible IMHO. Obviously, people making xamp aren't FreeBSD developers, per se, but their efforts are felt as much by us FreeBSD users as they are by all other users of Unix. In short, this is admittedly a matter of perception, not reality. I think people should listen to Brett in that if we are using what would make not only a nifty server OS, but a good desktop one as well. Lets clearly state it. Let's also make clear, though, that FreeBSD is merely the support for a good desktop, and that a desktop is really X/Gnome/KDE. FreeBSD just happens to run apps very well, wether they be single or multiuser. And here I present some random crap, probably with a few deep errors here and there: GUI configuration is lacking, admittedly. With the new /etc/defaults/rc.conf vs /etc/rc.conf files, I wouldn't think it would be impossible to configure the system, possibly ppp, and begin to move yet closer to a fully GUI system. One has to be VERY careful though, because rarely have I found GUI to mean simpler. Very often when doing Linux tech support at an internship this summer I found it easier to ask the person on to "cd /etc" and fire up vi. Once confused, GUI configuration tools are sheer hell to work with. Which brings up another thing. If Linux were to 'take over' as the Desktop OS of choice.. you wouldn't have to retrain your stuff to handle FreeBSD, or many unicies for that matter. I almost never use Linux systems, but given a quick perusal of the startup scripts and the odd man page, I'm right back at home. At a certain level, a server will never be equivalent to a desktop. You can have the same Kernel and core concepts, sure, (this is what I am asserting.. that a good kernel can be both a good desktop and server, but The REAL problem, frankly, is in Xserverland.. FreeBSD can never install and boot you into X because it still takes a somewhat knowledgable human to configure. This seems to be changing as of release 4. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 14:58:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D72114F88 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07819; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:57:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008155031.043f2ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:57:44 -0600 To: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FE1596.ACDA5DEE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM 10/8/99 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >We have good people, and they are working on what they do best. If we >wanted to do intensive client side work, then we would have to find >*other* people to do it because AFAIK our hands are full. Then let's! As I've already mentioned, I'd like to facilitate and finance some more work on FreeBSD via a new distribution. Maybe I could hire some folks to do this, and get some volunteers too! >Throwing away money and resources to the client is a nonsense. Have you >installed linux on a laptop? Yes, and it was painful. >Do you really think that other platforms >(Redhat, for example) with much more resources than we have will >actually displace M$ ? If this happens, which I sincerely doubt, it will >be in many years. It won't happen at all unless we try, though! >Unix is not meant for simple minded users. Actually, it's better at self-maintaining than most OSes. I have clients whose sites I visit once every quarter. The server hums away in the back closet with NO maintenance. I've never seen a Windows system do that! My simple-minded users PREFER UNIX. >OTOH, all the efforts that RH and other companies are doing to improve X >translate directly to us. We have the opportunity to see how they fall >(GGI for example) and redo things better . > >Quite honestly Brett, I think you could better try to convince Corel, >Oracle, IBM, and SGI that FreeBSD is the way to go for their server >products. Does Corel have server products? (Other than Corel Linux itself, I don't know of any.) It'd be great to get their CLIENT products onto FreeBSD as a native port. But this would require gaining steam as a client OS. And even then, they might not do it because they have foolishly bought into Linux. As for the others -- yes, they should port their server stuff AND their client stuff. Both. Otherwise, people who wish to run the same OS on both client and server will pick something other than FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 15: 0:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED53114F78 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07842; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:00:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:00:00 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991008163812.H20768@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:38 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >And someone in that then-grown pool will care about the desktop in a >personal way, and will work to improve it, and solve the problem. >Right now, nobody (or very few people) take the desktop personally, so >nothing will get done because nobody cares enough to do it. 'Because it >has to be done' is nowhere near as big an incentive as 'I want to do >this'. Well, I WANT TO DO THIS. That's one of the reasons I'm waiting with bated breath for Jordan to grant me permission to use the name "FreeBSD" on a new distribution. Once I have this permission, I can generate the income to fund the effort -- and donate a whole lot of code back to the project. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 15: 2:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94A714F78; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id PAA05500; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA03381; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:03 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA19690; Fri, 8 Oct 99 15:01:47 PDT Message-Id: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:02:01 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the target: Yet little is known about how Internet-based virtual teams (IVT) really operate and what problems develop in that sort of cooperation. Some evident problems are: o overload and subsequent burnout of leading developers due to excessive load, with significant loss of interest in a given product; o a conservative approach to architecture (it's really difficult to change the architecture of a product after its development has started) o e-mail based written communication to some degree tends to distort meaning and invite fights and flame wars. Hmm. Sound familiar? This is worth a read for everyone, that's why I've emailed this to -chat as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 15:17:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD3A14DF3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26394; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:17:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:17:24 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Message-ID: <19991008171724.J20768@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <19991008163812.H20768@futuresouth.com> <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 04:00:00PM -0600, a little birdie told me that Brett Glass remarked > > Well, I WANT TO DO THIS. That's one of the reasons I'm waiting with bated > breath for Jordan to grant me permission to use the name "FreeBSD" on a > new distribution. Once I have this permission, I can generate the income > to fund the effort -- and donate a whole lot of code back to the project. Well, GOOD FOR YOU and GO FOR IT. I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it. My 'desktop' work consists of running Netscape, mutt, and a crapload of vi, so I don't particularly care, but it'd be 'nice' in a general sense to have more widespread support for X, Y, and Z. I don't care enough to push hard for it myself; I have bigger worries in my life. But I doubt many people will stand in your way on the narrow subject of 'push for the desktop'. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 15:23:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B1315014 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08104; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:23:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008162119.00a71d30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:23:35 -0600 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991008171724.J20768@futuresouth.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <19991008163812.H20768@futuresouth.com> <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:17 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >Well, GOOD FOR YOU and GO FOR IT. >I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it. My 'desktop' work consists of >running Netscape, mutt, and a crapload of vi, so I don't particularly >care, but it'd be 'nice' in a general sense to have more widespread >support for X, Y, and Z. And you are EXACTLY the kind of who could be targeted very easily with a good, fast, simple desktop. I have lots of ideas on how to do this with less development effort than the GNOME guys are putting in. Again, all I need is the go-ahead from FreeBSD, Inc.; my written request was Express Mailed to them not long ago. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 15:36:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n66.san.rr.com (dt011n66.san.rr.com [204.210.13.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB94D14F6B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n66.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA82475; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37FE71EE.E0CADCC4@gorean.org> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:36:30 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0927 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:38 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > >And someone in that then-grown pool will care about the desktop in a > >personal way, and will work to improve it, and solve the problem. > >Right now, nobody (or very few people) take the desktop personally, so > >nothing will get done because nobody cares enough to do it. 'Because it > >has to be done' is nowhere near as big an incentive as 'I want to do > >this'. > > Well, I WANT TO DO THIS. That's one of the reasons I'm waiting with bated > breath for Jordan to grant me permission to use the name "FreeBSD" on a > new distribution. Once I have this permission, I can generate the income > to fund the effort -- and donate a whole lot of code back to the project. Before we start yet another "Brett Glass Vaporware, Inc." thread, please at least be honest about what's happening, and stop trying to paint Jordan as the bad guy here. The decision is not Jordan's alone, and the name is not the only thing holding your alleged project up. If it is, your lack of sufficiently astute legal counsel has already doomed your efforts before you start. Personally I hope that no one grants you the right to use the name FreeBSD. At the same time if you can manage to make a commercially successful desktop environment based on freebsd code I say more power to you. I think that there _is_ a desktop market for freebsd, and I think Terry made some good points in his comments. Doug -- "Stop it, I'm gettin' misty." - Mel Gibson as Porter, "Payback" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 16: 6:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 4D4CF14CEA; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433241CD460; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:06:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Kris Kirby Cc: drbrain@magnesium.net, "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: <37FD62A1.CFF3B784@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, Kris Kirby wrote: > Eric Hodel wrote: > > > > http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > > > > A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k > > Well, after aalib, what were you expecting? :-) Actually, despite my earlier comment aalib doesn't do colours. Does anyone know what software they did use for this? Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 16:18:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C7214FA1; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id SAA82648; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:19:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:19:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar In-Reply-To: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For > instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the > target: Yet, in some ways its not. Its somewhere in the middle of being good, and of being.. bad. Some parts of it, which you noted, are worthy to bookmark and use this as a reference, while others.... I'll simply refer to ESR's responce: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/response-to-bezroukov.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 16:23: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBEB14FA1 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:23:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08855; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:22:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008170522.043eec70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:22:46 -0600 To: Doug From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FE71EE.E0CADCC4@gorean.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <37FE3827.A45735D8@owp.csus.edu> <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008155827.0443c960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:36 PM 10/8/99 -0700, Doug wrote: > Before we start yet another "Brett Glass Vaporware, Inc." thread, >please at least be honest about what's happening, and stop trying to >paint Jordan as the bad guy here. I'm not painting Jordan as a "bad guy." I know he's busy. I talked to him by telephone last week, though, and he said to send a written request. So, I did -- and we're hoping for a quick response! We do need to get permission to use the mark in the product name before proceeding. >The decision is not Jordan's alone, >and the name is not the only thing holding your alleged project up. Actually, the project isn't being "held up" by this.... Yet. But at some point it will move to the critical path. >If it is, your lack of sufficiently astute legal counsel has already doomed >your efforts before you start. We have a good lawyer, but it doesn't take particularly astute legal counsel to know that we need permission. > Personally I hope that no one grants you the right to use the name >FreeBSD. I'm sorry to hear that. Why would you begrudge us the use of the name? Our hope is to help the FreeBSD Project and expand FreeBSD's user base. We want the name so as to identify with the group and to give proper credit. Yes, we could use something totally different -- but this would hurt all concerned. >At the same time if you can manage to make a commercially >successful desktop environment based on freebsd code I say more power to >you. I think that there _is_ a desktop market for freebsd, and I think >Terry made some good points in his comments. Well, good! I hope that I can convince you that what we produce is worthy of the FreeBSD name. Our plans are to include the FreeBSD CD exactly as the Project generates it, with all of our additions on one or more separate CDs. So, it would follow the precedent set by Walnut Creek's "FreeBSD Power Pack" -- and should be every bit as worthy of using the name. We won't ship it if it isn't. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 17: 3:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 3FEC7153BC; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7EC1CD462; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:03:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Tom Embt Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19991008171430.00abc170@mail.embt.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Tom Embt wrote: > The inevitable...(I couldn't resist) > > http://www.embt.com/tom/FreeBSD/textlogo1.html Ahh, cool - I didn't notice they were made up of source code, not just pixel density-selected characters (a la aalib). > ~70K, made with PHP3 I'd like to know more about how you did this.. Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 17:30:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neptune.psn.net (neptune.psn.net [207.211.58.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BDB14DE5 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@shadow.blackdawn.com) Received: from 5042-243.008.popsite.net ([209.224.140.243] helo=shadow.blackdawn.com) by neptune.psn.net with esmtp (PSN Internet Service 2.12 #3) id 11ZkPQ-0006YZ-00; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:30:49 -0700 Received: (from will@localhost) by shadow.blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA00837; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:30:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4rzaRDa00Uw_1CoKk0@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 20:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Will Andrews From: Will Andrews To: Thomas Valentino Crimi Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Oct-99 Thomas Valentino Crimi wrote: > The REAL problem, frankly, is in Xserverland.. FreeBSD can never > install and boot you into X because it still takes a somewhat > knowledgable human to configure. This seems to be changing as of > release 4. This is mostly a problem on the part of the X Consortium, IMO. Although the FreeBSD project could (among its ranks) write its own configuration utility to figure out what card somebody has, write a good XF86Config for it, etc. This would require a huge database, however, and a rather knowledgeable person who understands X11 code well enough.. Frankly, however, I think XF86Setup sucks. Bad. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 17:53:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8251414FC9 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA17762; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:53:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA2ya4KI; Fri Oct 8 17:53:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01748; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:53:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090053.RAA01748@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: brett@peloton.runet.edu (Brett Taylor) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:53:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brett Taylor" at Oct 8, 99 05:00:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There's an interesting article at XML.com. It's a talk that Tim O'Reilly > gave in Tokyo at a Linux convention. In the article he points out that he > believes there's a new revolution in computing going on - not software, > not hardware, but a shift to web sites as the "killer app" and that all of > the focus of the Linux users on "beating MS at the desktop" is totally > misplaced when they should be focusing on what is to come. > > http://xml.com/pub/1999/10/tokyo.html > > Anyway, I think this is a nice contrast to what Brett normally talks about > (not focusing solely on the server and taking on the desktop) - whether it > has any merits I'll leave to you the reader. :-) Which is really belied by Tim's company's own actions, with regard to publication of Linux vs. BSD materials, IMO. This is a situation where he publically holds one opinion, but acts in contravention of that opinion. Linus has consistently, in recent times, played a political role as an anti-Microsoft crusader, using it as a rallying point to attract ever more support for Linux. Tim's organization, through their publications, has demonstrably demonstrated, through a preferential support of Linux, support by proxy for this position, while claiming at the same time that BSD represents a superior server OS. One could argue either that one of these contradictory views must be falsely held, or that he's torn between philosophy (BSD) and following the money (Linux). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 17:57:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1117B15448 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20212; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:57:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAmuaqzN; Fri Oct 8 17:57:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01911; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:57:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090057.RAA01911@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:57:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008143949.043f2a30@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 8, 99 03:28:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Before I comment on these comments, I believe everyone involved in > >FreeBSD would love to see FreeBSD be much more comparable to Windows ( > >support, apps, drivers, etc ) in the desktop world. However being that > >resources are finite then tough decisions must be made. > > It is true that resources are finite. But as FreeBSD grows in applicability, > the pool of resources available for its development will also expand. [ ... ] > I'm reminded of the quote from Richard Bach's "Jonathan Livingston > Seagull" -- "Argue for your limitations, and you get to keep them." This is your salient point. If someone wants to work on something, and you tell them that that's not where your platform is at, they will go elsewhere. It is only if someone asks to work on something, and you tell them "Sure! Welcome aboard! The more the merrier!" that you will attract contributors outside of your preestablished (or defacto) clique. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 17:59: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7600414FC9 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:59:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from avarice (unknown@avarice [10.0.0.2]) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27294; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:58:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:58:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tani Hosokawa To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Taylor , jcwells@u.washington.edu, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? In-Reply-To: <199910090053.RAA01748@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Which is really belied by Tim's company's own actions, with > regard to publication of Linux vs. BSD materials, IMO. > > This is a situation where he publically holds one opinion, but > acts in contravention of that opinion. > > Linus has consistently, in recent times, played a political role > as an anti-Microsoft crusader, using it as a rallying point to > attract ever more support for Linux. > > Tim's organization, through their publications, has demonstrably > demonstrated, through a preferential support of Linux, support > by proxy for this position, while claiming at the same time that > BSD represents a superior server OS. > > One could argue either that one of these contradictory views > must be falsely held, or that he's torn between philosophy (BSD) > and following the money (Linux). Do you know how many submissions they get for BSD related books compared to how many submissions they get for Linux related books? --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18: 8:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1BF115351 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA22818; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:08:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAWia4rS; Fri Oct 8 18:08:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02228; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:07:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090107.SAA02228@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:07:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008153040.044486e0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 8, 99 03:37:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe. However, the last time I mentioned something like this on > -advocacy, I was flamed for being "off topic!" So, I decided to > post to -chat, where no one could make that accusation. [ ... ] > >The invitation for comments looks like "and I'll whup the man what > >says it ain't so" -- I think the article itself is sufficient > >solicitation. > > I'm not looking to "whup the man who says it ain't so," but I would > like to hear if there are strong arguments on the other side. [ ... ] > >such that the > >message was not damned in some small minds by the messenger. > > Am I such a bad person to serve as the messenger? Yes, I have > said some controversial things here in the past, and that may > have rubbed a few people the wrong way. But I think that folks > will agree that I mean well, even if I have ideas that they > sometimes consider to be odd. There is a particular aspect to your style, evidenced by the "Comments?" invitation, that has a social tendency to be taken as you attempting to challenge the status quo. If you could merely provide the information, without editorializing it, I think that people would be more receptive. I also think you have a tendency to defend with zeal ideas which require a more politic and less knee-jerk defense, if they are to be accepted. If you could take a page from that URL you posted about the "Critique of Vulgar Raymondism", and in particular, the referenced link about Lysenkoism, you would probably be more effective in communicating on -advocacy. Now people might say "Terry is one to talk...", but I think my own position is more akin to that of Jamie Zawinski. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:12:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96EC153C0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:12:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA04855; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:41:23 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from darius@dons.net.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199910081832.LAA07829@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 10:40:57 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, gryph@mindless.com, andrews@TECHNOLOGIST.COM, kris@airnet.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Daniel O'Connor) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Oct-99 Terry Lambert wrote: > The Palm Pilot itself may include an MMU. Hmm.. well I have one :) Last time I pulled it apart I didn't notice an extra chip for it (which > It looks like the Palm Linux guys, if they are doing anything, > are running with SVR3.2/x86 Xenix 2.x non-paged memory > management, if they are running at all, unless I'm really > missing the boat. 8-(. Well I looked at the web site for 'ELKS - The Embeddable Linux Kernel Subset' and its more like a learning kernel that you use Linux to compile. Not sure how it managed VM functions since the web page is full of broken links and I couldn't be bothered downloading the source (http://www.elks.ecs.soton.ac.uk/) Hmm.. well further along the http://www.linux.org/projects/ports.html page, I see there is the Linux Microcontroller page.. But alas the web page doesn't seem to bother explaing HOW it works, they just tell you it does.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:14:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4CF8153C0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09776; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:14:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008190610.042a9770@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:12:30 -0600 To: Terry Lambert , brett@peloton.runet.edu (Brett Taylor) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910090053.RAA01748@usr09.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:53 AM 10/9/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >Which is really belied by Tim's company's own actions, with >regard to publication of Linux vs. BSD materials, IMO. > >This is a situation where he publically holds one opinion, but >acts in contravention of that opinion. O'Reilly tends to jump on, and ride, bandwagons after the bandwagons get going. They do NOT push the bandwagon, even though they would be very effective in that role. As a result, they're not super-enthusiastic about FreeBSD titles. They do not seem convinced that they'd get the same ROI from a general FreeBSD book as they would from even a "niche" Linux book. I've been campaigning to do a FreeBSD book for them, but I do not sense much enthusiasm. My last e-mail, containing a proposal that they solicited, has not yet been answered. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:16:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1884B153C0 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26880; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:16:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjWaOt0; Fri Oct 8 18:16:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02614; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:16:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090116.SAA02614@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:16:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@peloton.runet.edu, tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008154001.043f3220@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Oct 8, 99 03:49:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > O'Reilly's remarks are also consistent with what I'm saying. In his > speech, he advocates the use of the Web browser *as* a desktop environment, > which is fine! (Netscape had the same idea long before Tim did, and the > concept scared Microsoft silly.) It'd certainly be better than Yet Another > X Window Manager. > > But what is that web-browser-cum-GUI-cum-desktop going to run on? (There has > to be an underlying OS, after all.) Why not let it be BSD? It might be > one good way for FreeBSD to invade the desktop without just mimicking what > Linux and GNOME are doing. IMO, and that of some other people, among them researchers at I.B.M. Almaden, X Windows is an albatross, which should probably be dumped, at least as the top level interface. The replacement for this would be a CORBA application, compatible with KOM (per KDE), or some similar technology. This would allow embedding of applications (including X servers) into diplay devices. This would also allow "application farms", where your desktop is somewhere on the Internet, and through an authentication method, and via transport level security (e.g. IPSEC/IKE or SSL), you would authenticate to get your desktop embedded at your current location (whether this be a terminal, a full computer, or just a PDA). In such a world, the platform in front of you (i.e. "the desktop") doesn't matter, it's the back end servers that matter. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:26:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D58214F1A for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA89198; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FE99CE.B8EC30E8@owp.csus.edu> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 01:26:39 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <199910090057.RAA01911@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Before I comment on these comments, I believe everyone involved in > > >FreeBSD would love to see FreeBSD be much more comparable to Windows ( > > >support, apps, drivers, etc ) in the desktop world. However being that > > >resources are finite then tough decisions must be made. > > > > It is true that resources are finite. But as FreeBSD grows in applicability, > > the pool of resources available for its development will also expand. > > [ ... ] > > > I'm reminded of the quote from Richard Bach's "Jonathan Livingston > > Seagull" -- "Argue for your limitations, and you get to keep them." > > This is your salient point. > > If someone wants to work on something, and you tell them that > that's not where your platform is at, they will go elsewhere. > > It is only if someone asks to work on something, and you tell > them "Sure! Welcome aboard! The more the merrier!" that you > will attract contributors outside of your preestablished (or > defacto) clique. In an effort to not drag this on forever I'll try and be to the point. If an organization/company/venture/whatever wants to be involved in enhancing FreeBSD for the desktop then I'm all for it. I would personally have some personal qualifacations on that though. Any said company/org/group should stay true to FreeBSD's model of development ( ie : should work in harmony with core/committers ). If they can't do that then they should figure out what they need to do to make that happen, actively try and make the relationship better/work and not just denounce it. I will even go so far as to say that if anyone in the future refers to FreeBSD as only a server OS they should gently be reminded that many of us enjoy it's use on the desktop ( the past in behind us, if we really want to do any good we need to move on ). However I don't think that we should shy away from saying that FreeBSD is one awesome server OS. So no one should get bent of shape when someone says something like : "FreeBSD is the best server OS out there." in a discussion of server OS's ( that example is extreme, but you get the idea ). I'm looking forward to getting a copy of Applixware at FreeBSD Con. I'm hoping that will fit a gap in FreeBSD on the desktop. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:31: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4FA514C57 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA28497; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAARgaqI3; Fri Oct 8 18:26:31 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02965; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:26:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090126.SAA02965@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Valentino Crimi) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:26:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4rzaRDa00Uw_1CoKk0@andrew.cmu.edu> from "Thomas Valentino Crimi" at Oct 8, 99 05:51:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The question in my mind, though, is: > > "What can one add to the kernel to make FreeBSD a better desktop > environment?" > > And the answer, is... nothing (almost). GGI would be a good start. So would either a CORBA enabled VNC viewer, or some other OMG style component, that could use the GGI to do its diplays. > The OS's job is to get mouse and keyboard clicks to the appropriate > programs, manage their resources, and otherwise let the number crunchers > keep crunching, and the netscapes keeps scaping. Not a single new > kernel feature or utility is really going to change the fact that 99% of > the Desktop "experience" is up to the Gnome/KDE guys. I think the OS's job is actually to abstract the hardware from the software, so that the software doesn't have to worry about where it is running. You can achieve this in two ways: (1) run the software on a server where it is a native binary, or (2) run it in a virtual machine, either dynamically bound (e.g. Java) or installation bound (e.g. ANDF). > In terms of code, FreeBSD is fairly well latched onto Linux's train of > development as far as X and window managers go.. if anything, FreeBSD > can at least state that they are commited to keeping KDE and Gnome > well-ported and up to date, and have stated support for the programs > (which I feel already exists) which Desktop users may wish to use. > Marketing and visibility, Brett, are your cup of tea, and maybe you > should go about and state the following things: X is really a dead end. There should be no difference between the desktop display software, and any other software which exports a canvas into which another application can be embedded. The historical and artificial division of X as a frame buffer acccess protocol has been as damaging as anything else to UNIX, and is also a serious limitation on Windows, even in the face of the Citrix code. Even the Citrix WinFrame stuff, which allows multiple sessions under NT, has a serious limitation in that each session -- like an X server -- consumes inordinate (and unjustifiable, for the function) resources that could be better applied elsewhere. Where X is an "outie", the Citrix WinFrame code is an "innie". > The job of the FreeBSD group is to make the best underlying OS > possible. There aren't nearly enough commiters to make the > WordProcessors, spreadsheets, cute window managers and graphical mp3 > players the world wants. It only requires committers when the code goes into FreeBSD's source tree. I believe that the division between the kernel and the rest of the OS allows Linux to take advantage of aggregation far better than FreeBSD, at the obvious cost in incompatabilities between distributions. Yet such incompatabilities are in user space, and could, with effort, be ameliorated. > The REAL problem, frankly, is in Xserverland.. FreeBSD can never > install and boot you into X because it still takes a somewhat > knowledgable human to configure. This seems to be changing as of > release 4. GGI would resolve that, in allowing FreeBSD video drivers (written under NDA and distributed in binary format) to come on vendors adaptor driver disks. Such drivers would replace the default VGA (or MDA, etc.) driver only if installed, so minimum functionality could be obtained. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:31:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E089914C57; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01461; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:31:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAwmaaUc; Fri Oct 8 18:31:10 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03156; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:31:06 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090131.SAA03156@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands To: kris@hub.freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:31:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@airnet.net, drbrain@magnesium.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Oct 8, 99 04:06:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > http://rio.dhs.org/penguin.html > > > > > > A giant text picture, careful, its something like 400k > > > > Well, after aalib, what were you expecting? :-) > > Actually, despite my earlier comment aalib doesn't do colours. Does anyone > know what software they did use for this? It looks like a screenshot from the ASCII VGA library, having rendered a GIF in a VGA of the size that they chose to use for the pixelization process, with the ASCII-art driver replaces by a concatenation, sans whistespace, of a portion of Linux's init_main.c. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:45:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6E21538A for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA04352; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:44:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAG6aG8h; Fri Oct 8 18:44:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03530; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:43:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090143.SAA03530@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: unknown@riverstyx.net (Tani Hosokawa) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:43:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@peloton.runet.edu, jcwells@u.washington.edu, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tani Hosokawa" at Oct 8, 99 05:58:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... O'Reilly publication of Linux books vs. BSD books ... ] > Do you know how many submissions they get for BSD related books compared > to how many submissions they get for Linux related books? I don't know about how many unsolicited proposals (or manuscripts) they get; I do know that there is approximately a 8:1 bias in solicitations, however. A book on Linux will sell copies. It is apparent that the ratio in which it will sell relative to a book on BSD is 8 times that of the BSD book. My point was that the commentary in the cited reference, and other public comments Tim has made, are contradictory. This either means that the cited reference was untrustworthy, or that Tim is philosophically in the BSD camp, but not fiscally supportive of his philosophy. Either of which conclusions are available, for anyone else with access to the public record and the cited article, to draw. I would be happy to be proven wrong (e.g. Tim is soliciting at 8:1 in favor of Linux, but Linux books would outsell BSD books at 16:1, and Tim is putting his money where his mouth is). Alternatively, I can still respect Tim for being a good businessman; after all, I collaborated on a user manual for a UNIX product with him back in the late 1980's, when he was just starting out with the "Nutshell" series, and he has been able to grow quite a sizable business based on his shred acumen. Either way, the cite must be taken with a grain of salt; it is not suffient in itself to refute the argument it purported to refute, without clarification from Tim himself. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 18:45:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B2714D60 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:45:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18217; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:45:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd018157; Fri Oct 8 18:45:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03577; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:45:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910090145.SAA03577@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:45:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910090107.SAA02228@usr09.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Oct 9, 99 01:07:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... ] > If you could take a page from that URL you posted about the > "Critique of Vulgar Raymondism", and in particular, the > referenced link about Lysenkoism, you would probably be more > effective in communicating on -advocacy. Sorry; it was Daniel C. Sobral who posted the URL. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 19: 5:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from modgud.nordicrecords.com (h21-168-107.nordicdms.com [207.21.168.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AFE4152CC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwalton@acm.org) Received: (qmail 19029 invoked by alias); 9 Oct 1999 02:05:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19991009020511.19026.qmail@modgud.nordicrecords.com> Received: (qmail 19011 invoked from network); 9 Oct 1999 02:05:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO walton) (207.21.168.137) by mail.nordicdms.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 1999 02:05:10 -0000 From: "Dave Walton" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:02:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands Reply-To: dwalton@acm.org Cc: Kris Kennaway , Tom Embt X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Tom Embt wrote: > > > The inevitable...(I couldn't resist) > > > > http://www.embt.com/tom/FreeBSD/textlogo1.html > > > > ~70K, made with PHP3 > > I'd like to know more about how you did this.. > More to the point, where's the code? :) Dave ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Walton dwalton@acm.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 19:25:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819C714BD3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:25:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA62CC; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:25:11 -0400 Message-ID: <37FEA918.1279A571@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:31:52 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008155031.043f2ca0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Brett, if you are going to throw YOUR money in, I'll give you moral support :-). Start hiring this GUI expert that quit working with the Red Hat people..the author of enlightenment. Maybe I read wrong, but it seems like he was not converted to the GPL. > > Does Corel have server products? (Other than Corel Linux itself, I don't > know of any.) It'd be great to get their CLIENT products onto FreeBSD > as a native port. But this would require gaining steam as a client OS. > And even then, they might not do it because they have foolishly bought > into Linux. > I was thinking more in the line of their NC's stuff. But now that I think it they are producing an installation utility for Linux, and they are now facing problems with the fanatic GPLr's, so if you contact them you'll probably convince them of the GPL error. > As for the others -- yes, they should port their server stuff AND their > client stuff. Both. Otherwise, people who wish to run the same OS on > both client and server will pick something other than FreeBSD. > Start with the server stuff...the rest will surely fall later. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 19:54:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7009514C83 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6313 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: <37FEAFE6.5393A768@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:00:54 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I've never seen nothing revolutionary in ESR's postulates. Organizations have been very well studied by serious people like Claude Menard. See my old article in the Daemon News for a reference (Structuring and Funding Free Software Organizations). FWIW, Linus also showed Mozilla as an example where opensource simply didn't work. I think the license also has an influence, but that is just IMHO :-). Pedro. Wes Peters wrote: > > "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at > > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. > > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. > > This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For > instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the > target: > > Yet little is known about how Internet-based virtual teams (IVT) > really operate and what problems develop in that sort of cooperation. > Some evident problems are: > > o overload and subsequent burnout of leading developers due to > excessive load, with significant loss of interest in a > given product; > o a conservative approach to architecture (it's really difficult to > change the architecture of a product after its development has > started) > o e-mail based written communication to some degree tends to distort > meaning and invite fights and flame wars. > > Hmm. Sound familiar? This is worth a read for everyone, that's why I've > emailed this to -chat as well. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 20:12:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456D114FD4 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:12:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id FAA23400; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 05:12:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id CA9FC885C; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:13:01 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:13:01 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Porting FreeBSD to the Mac (68K or PPC) Message-ID: <19991009031301.A24860@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Daniel O'Connor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199910081832.LAA07829@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199910081832.LAA07829@usr07.primenet.com> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Terry Lambert: > The Palm Pilot itself may include an MMU. Nope. No memory protection at all AFAIK. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #74: Thu Sep 9 00:20:51 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 20:43:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C5A15357; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10631; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:21:23 -0600 To: Wes Peters , "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:02 PM 10/8/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >"Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at > > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. > > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. > >This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. And a few REALLY serious mistakes, especially where FreeBSD is concerned. For example: " Being less PC-friendly then Linux and due to legal problems with AT&T, at some point the FreeBSD movement lost momentum and later suffered also from an internal split (OpenBSD)." Like many writers who cover open source, he seems to go out of his way to dismiss the BSDs, applying several of the bogus arguments in Raymond's "Halloween memo." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 21: 9:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7485614EB4 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10827; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:09:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008214637.04368e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:09:30 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Online discussion style (Was: Targeting the server...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199910090107.SAA02228@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008153040.044486e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:07 AM 10/9/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >There is a particular aspect to your style, evidenced by the >"Comments?" invitation, that has a social tendency to be taken >as you attempting to challenge the status quo. How would you have invited people to comment? Or do you think that the mere posting of the information was sufficient invitation to comment? >If you could merely provide the information, without editorializing >it, I think that people would be more receptive. I tried to avoid editorializing in the initial posting. I gave only a brief introduction for context; the rest of the post was a paraphrase of this fellow's remarks, based on my notes. I tried to be as accurate as I could. >I also think you have a tendency to defend with zeal ideas which >require a more politic and less knee-jerk defense, if they are >to be accepted. I'll fully admit that I tend to like animated (though still civil) discussions. I often get flamed, though, because certain people (not everyone!) interpret spirited discussion as a challenge. I'm not sure how to avoid this! I'd like to convey my enthusiasm for online discussion without turning threads into flame wars, if there's a way to do that. >If you could take a page from that URL you posted about the >"Critique of Vulgar Raymondism", and in particular, the >referenced link about Lysenkoism, you would probably be more >effective in communicating on -advocacy. Hmmm. I wasn't the one who posted the link; I think it was Wes Peters. I'm not sure, however, what you mean about the reference to Lysenkoism. Could you explain? >Now people might say "Terry is one to talk...", but I think my >own position is more akin to that of Jamie Zawinski. Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Jamie Zawinski, as I recall, recently burned out on running the Mozilla project. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 21:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BAF15870 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10871; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:15:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008221247.0440b100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:15:18 -0600 To: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FEA918.1279A571@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008155031.043f2ca0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:31 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >Brett, if you are going to throw YOUR money in, I'll give you moral >support :-). Start hiring this GUI expert that quit working with the Red >Hat people..the author of enlightenment. Maybe I read wrong, but it >seems like he was not converted to the GPL. What's his name? Where can I find his work? Information about his philosophy? >I was thinking more in the line of their NC's stuff. But now that I >think it they are producing an installation utility for Linux, and they >are now facing problems with the fanatic GPLr's, so if you contact them >you'll probably convince them of the GPL error. Yes, they are facing big problems with fanatic GPLers. And I warned them MONTHS ago that they would. But the Corel people to whom I've spoken don't admit to any desire to change course; in fact, they're trying to sweep the conflicts under the rug. All I could say (though in different words) was, "I told you you'd get bitten." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 21:16:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360D114EC2 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10887; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:16:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008221540.04466c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:16:13 -0600 To: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar In-Reply-To: <37FEAFE6.5393A768@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:00 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >FWIW, Linus also showed Mozilla as an example where opensource simply >didn't work. Ah, but Linus claims that it's because Netscape didn't give away the farm. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 8 23:58:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B017814A05 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.51]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6497; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:58:13 -0400 Message-ID: <37FEE917.DFD7A445@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 02:04:55 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008155031.043f2ca0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008221247.0440b100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:31 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: > > >Brett, if you are going to throw YOUR money in, I'll give you moral > >support :-). Start hiring this GUI expert that quit working with the Red > >Hat people..the author of enlightenment. Maybe I read wrong, but it > >seems like he was not converted to the GPL. > > What's his name? Where can I find his work? Information about his > philosophy? > There must be a home page for enlightenment, or I can look it back in Slashdot, where the intimate details were ventilated..he preferred the artistic license over the GPL. I'll look it up but it will take some time..I'm fighting W98 on my laptop :-(. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 9 0: 9:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8EF158FD; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id QAA02574; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:09:10 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FEE9AC.DA06F3AF@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 16:07:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Benjamin M. Manes" Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Benjamin M. Manes" wrote: > > > This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For > > instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the > > target: > > Yet, in some ways its not. Its somewhere in the middle of being good, and > of being.. bad. Some parts of it, which you noted, are worthy to bookmark > and use this as a reference, while others.... I'll simply refer to ESR's > responce: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/response-to-bezroukov.html Well, the part about OpenBSD splitting from FreeBS was a little bit... off the mark? :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 9 0:48:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com (c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com [24.4.230.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C2D152E5; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com) Received: (from alex@localhost) by c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA16442; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:48:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from alex) From: alex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14334.62288.240083.55919@c74763-a.aurora1.co.home.com> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:48:32 -0600 (MDT) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Tom Embt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: People with too much time on their hands In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19991008171430.00abc170@mail.embt.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 9 1:41:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634BE14F8C; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.20]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAE370E; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:41:13 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28102; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:39:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:39:41 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar Message-ID: <19991009103941.E28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On [19991009 08:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 04:02 PM 10/8/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>"Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: >> > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at >> > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. >> > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. >>This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. >And a few REALLY serious mistakes, especially where FreeBSD >is concerned. For example: I won't start on that door you just opened. =P >" Being less PC-friendly then Linux and due to legal problems with AT&T, >at some point the FreeBSD movement lost momentum and later suffered also >from an internal split (OpenBSD)." s/FreeBSD/NetBSD right? I seriously wonder why people why write articles which `attack' other articles do not do proper research prior to releasing it. I mean, this is an error which actually puts FreeBSD in a somewhat negative light whilst being completely untrue. *sigh* -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Delirious again, mesmerise my senses, our Souls entwine one more time... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 9 8:25:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCCE91502C for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14347; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA02723; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA18877; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:25:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:25:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199910091525.KAA18877@free.pcs> To: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: > >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> At 09:31 PM 10/8/99 -0500, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote: >> >> >Brett, if you are going to throw YOUR money in, I'll give you moral >> >support :-). Start hiring this GUI expert that quit working with the Red >> >Hat people..the author of enlightenment. Maybe I read wrong, but it >> >seems like he was not converted to the GPL. >> >> What's his name? Where can I find his work? Information about his >> philosophy? >> > >There must be a home page for enlightenment, or I can look it back in >Slashdot, where the intimate details were ventilated..he preferred the >artistic license over the GPL. I'll look it up but it will take some >time..I'm fighting W98 on my laptop :-(. If you're referring to Rasterman , who worked for RedHat and wrote Enlightenment, he now works for VA Research. See -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 9 10:17:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C997614C83 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.60]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6A75; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:16:58 -0400 Message-ID: <37FF7A1F.D984C749@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 12:23:43 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea? References: <199910091525.KAA18877@free.pcs> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ahh well, he was too creative for my taste anyway ;-). Pedro. Jonathan Lemon wrote: > ... > > > >There must be a home page for enlightenment, or I can look it back in > >Slashdot, where the intimate details were ventilated..he preferred the > >artistic license over the GPL. I'll look it up but it will take some > >time..I'm fighting W98 on my laptop :-(. > > If you're referring to Rasterman , who > worked for RedHat and wrote Enlightenment, he now works for VA Research. > See > -- > Jonathan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message