From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 8:50:26 1999
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:39:19 +0100
From: J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
To: FreeBSD chat list <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: Who's stolen the daemon's tail?
Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts
(``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail?
--
cheers, J"org
joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 11:20:58 1999
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:24:32 +0100
From: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>
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Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail?
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Hi,
On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote:
> Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts
> (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail?
... yes. :(((
I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about
the motivation ...
-Andreas
--
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 28 12: 3:45 1999
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Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:03:18 -0700
To: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>,
FreeBSD chat list <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail?
In-Reply-To: <19991128192432.B738@paert.tse-online.de>
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<19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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At 07:24 PM 11/28/1999 +0100, Andreas Braukmann wrote:
>Hi,
>
>On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote:
> > Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts
> > (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail?
>... yes. :(((
>I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about
>the motivation ...
So that we can play "Pin the tail on the daemon?"
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
--Brett
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 12:47:34 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: Andreas Braukmann <braukmann@tse-online.de>,
FreeBSD chat list <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who's stolen the daemon's tail?
References: <19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de>
<19991128173919.58027@uriah.heep.sax.de> <4.2.0.58.19991128130240.04824d00@localhost>
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Brett Glass wrote:
>
> >On Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:39:19PM +0100, J Wunsch wrote:
> > > Did nobody notice so far that on the `new-style' daemon T-Shirts
> > > (``The power to serve''), someone has stolen our daemon's nice tail?
> >... yes. :(((
> >I've noticed it the first time I was wearing it and wondered about
> >the motivation ...
>
> So that we can play "Pin the tail on the daemon?"
I checked and the traditional layout doth have the traditional tail!
Motivation? Clearly to stimulate sales of the traditional layout <g>
Roelof
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:12:24 1999
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Video Stupidity
References: <000001bf30b5$b82c5470$021d85d1@youwant.to>
<199911170254.TAA05982@usr08.primenet.com> <4.2.0.58.19991120204027.0452b630@localhost>
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Brett Glass wrote:
> Incidentally, Sony is now trying to introduce a proprietary flash
> memory format. Why another format? Partially so they can own it,
> but primarily because it has COPY PROTECTION. (Yes, that's right;
> each Memory Stick incorporates SCMS.) Now that Sony itself has a
> large content empire (which it began to bulk up shortly after it
> realized that content lost it the VHS vs. Beta battle), it wants
> to prevent its content from being copied -- at all costs. Likewise,
> have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? Again,
> this is an attempt to protect content from copying. Funny how
> everything is interconnected.
The portable cassette recorders that meet this definition are sold under
the name "Pressman", as in The Press or mass media as a whole. You're
more likely to see them in a B&H catalog than Wal-Mart.
--
Kris Kirby, KE4AHR
<kris@nospam.hiwaay.net>
-------------------------------------------
TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:15:11 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
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Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL
To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:14:48 +0000 (GMT)
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In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991123182433.04426710@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Nov 23, 99 06:26:30 pm
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> >These connotations actually derive from the writs of mandamus
> >issued to captains of what were, essentially, pirate ships (but
> >because of the writs, "they're _our_ pirates"). This practice
> >began in 1861, if memory serves me correctly.
>
> Don't you mean a "Letter of Marque" rather than a "Writ
> of mandamus?"
Yes, dammit. 8-).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 16:23:48 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199911300023.RAA17235@usr07.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix
To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:23:04 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9911241820080.1331-100000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Nov 24, 99 06:24:01 pm
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> Very interesting...
>
> On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote:
> >such as by allowing the creation of design patterns using UML as
>
> What does UML stand for?
Unified Modelling Language, brought to you by Grady Booch, James
Rumbaugh, Ivar Jacobson, et. al..
It allows you to model and combine design patterns in order to
be able to apply common soloutions to software engineering
problems.
> >weeds. Purify could not perform nearly as well on Windows systems
> >because of this (and would have problems on Linux, due to NULL
>
> Does Purify only run on unix/solaris?
It runs on protected mode OSs that can be set to not map page
zero, and in which each process has a private address space that
is not non-explicitly shared with other processes. So it's mostly
UNIX systems (SVR4 maps page zero by default following a fault
reference to to; this is a tunable, and can be disabled by
building [relinking] a new kernel).
> >Visual C++ and Visual Basic, as well as most Java IDE tools, are
> >not what I would call CASE tools, since they do not assist software
> >engineering, they only assist programming, which is something very
> >different.
>
> Thus the proliferation of good-looking poorly engineered products,
> especially for winodws.
Right. Anyone can Mac-dink pixels until they look nice; there
is no way to tell by looking at a UI whether you have a race
car engine or a lawnmower engine under the hood.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 19:52:16 1999
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From: "Craig Harding" <crh@outpost.co.nz>
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:51:29 +1200
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Subject: Your next desktop PC.........
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I don't think it's been discussed before, check out:
http://digital.jchyun.com/product/linuxpc/im01_b.jpg
The worrying thing is that it'll be enormously popular. Anyone with
artistic flair willing to mock up a FreeBSD version?
-- C.
<shudder>
--
Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I
Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade"
http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly
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From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 29 23:53:15 1999
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Date: 30 Nov 99 00:53:46 MST
From: <at950@usa.net>
To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org
Subject: DNS and the ISP black hole
Cc: postmaster@FreeBSD.org
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Hi Bret,
Sorry the ISP list
Admin. has black-holed me and Fil.Net without even ONE
warning for asking for a little pitty in the work I am doing
teaching the Congressman that FreeBSD is a better operating
system than WinNT. It is a tough job because M/S has a big
Lobby trying to get the government to not license ISP's that
don't have an official WinNT seal on their servers!
This was about my first post and I asked for help with a
sendmail problem from apache on our ISP's new server.
Actually, a lot of people on the list gave me the
information I needed to correct the problem. But the admin.
felt that asking for a little pitty being pretty much alone
in the Philippines against a large crowd of WinNT people
was reason enough to send all my postings to his /dev/null!
This Congressman is very impressed by the fact we are going
against the "best thinking" (WinNT) and that our ISP is
Providing a BETTER service using FreeBSD!
He is the Chair of the House Committee on Telecomunication
and is now drafting regulations effecting the Internet. I
would think the FreeBSD ISP Admin. would WANT to Help get
FreeBSD written into the Government's regulation, instead of
cutting off someone - WITHOUT EVEN ONE WARNING - who runs
the ONLY FreeBSD users group in the whole country.
Anyway, to answer your questions...
Your addresses are
216.150.57.8/29
aka:
216.150.57.8 255.255.255.248
This gives you the useable addresses of
216.150.57.9-14
You forgot the subnet value route address and subnet value. =
Take a look at:
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/rfc/rfc2317.txt
I also changed your serial number to remove the "." in the
format:
YYYYMMDDNN where NN is the serial number for that days
update (so don't make more than 100 changes on any one day!
A bigger problem will be your ISP's delegation. I could not
find any delegation for the 57.105.216.in-addr.arpa. zone at
all.
aLan
$ORIGIN 8/26.57.105.216.in-addr.arpa.
IN SOA dante.plover.org.
bford.dante.plover.org. (
1999113000 ; Serial
10800 ; Refresh after 3 hours
3600 ; Retry after 1 hour
604800 ; Expire after 1 week
3600 ) ; Minimum TTL of 1 hour
NS dante.plover.
NS ns1.pbi.net.
9 IN PTR ad9.plover.org.
10 IN PTR heather.plover.org.
11 IN PTR thorin.plover.org.
12 IN PTR advent.plover.org.
13 IN PTR dante.plover.org.
14 IN PTR daman.plover.org.
I hope this helps!
____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D=
1
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From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 4:37:38 1999
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To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: fortune candidate
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 30 Nov 1999 13:37:30 +0100
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[...] I remember being impressed with Ada because you could write
an infinite loop without a faked up condition. The idea being that
in Ada the typical infinite loop would be normally be terminated by
detonation.
-- Larry Wall
DES
--
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no
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From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 5:19:55 1999
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To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: fortune candidate
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On 30 Nov 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote:
>
> [...] I remember being impressed with Ada because you could write
> an infinite loop without a faked up condition. The idea being that
> in Ada the typical infinite loop would be normally be terminated by
> detonation.
>
> -- Larry Wall
while (!EndOfWorld){
blow_up();
}
?
David Scheidt
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From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 30 20: 3:49 1999
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:14:27 -0500
From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" <pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>
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Subject: OpenBSD's armored fish
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http://www.openbsd.org/
First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and
I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-).
What will come next ??
cheers,
Pedro.
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This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter,
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This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter,
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If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com
Thanks
*******************
*** JOBS NOTICE ***
*******************
San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs
BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in
the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or
contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is :
http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html
Employers:
The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have
FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job
please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com.
Employees:
When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job
listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page.
**********************
*** COUNTER NOTICE ***
**********************
FreeBSD Counter Project
The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have
put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is
an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a
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and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to
ISVs and hardware and software vendors.
You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can
be found at :
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Couple of caveats:
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* Suggestions and comments are welcome!
* The database behind this page was built from the email registrations
sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install
chances are you are in this database.
*********************
*** RETAIL NOTICE ***
*********************
Retail outlets for FreeBSD
A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of
FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a
number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at
http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html
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--
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 10: 1:37 1999
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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 13:00:12 -0500 (EST)
From: will andrews <andrews@technologist.com>
To: giffunip@asme.org
Subject: RE: OpenBSD's armored fish
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On 01-Dec-99 Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote:
> http://www.openbsd.org/
>
> First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and
> I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-).
It's not just a FISH, it's a _BLOWFISH_! I like it. :-)
--
Will Andrews <andrews@technologist.com>
GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w---
?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+
G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y?
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 11:18:15 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:17:52 +0000
From: Mark Ovens <mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org>
To: Craig Harding <crh@outpost.co.nz>
Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Your next desktop PC.........
Message-ID: <19991201191752.E316@marder-1>
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On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 04:51:29PM +1200, Craig Harding wrote:
> I don't think it's been discussed before, check out:
>
> http://digital.jchyun.com/product/linuxpc/im01_b.jpg
>
Looks like a high-tech Teletubby
> The worrying thing is that it'll be enormously popular. Anyone with
> artistic flair willing to mock up a FreeBSD version?
>
> -- C.
>
> <shudder>
> --
> Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I
> Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade"
> http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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--
PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet"
and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw"
- Computer Shopper 12/99
________________________________________________________________
FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/
mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 11:58:46 1999
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From: Eric Wayte <ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
To: giffunip@asme.org
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: OpenBSD's armored fish
In-Reply-To: <3844A0A3.EDBAE36C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>
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And they now have the 'script kittie' as well...
Eric Wayte, DBA
Univ. of Central Florida
ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote:
>
> First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and
> I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-).
>
> What will come next ??
>
> cheers,
>
> Pedro.
>
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 12: 5:59 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:32:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s?
I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment,
right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to
spend almost 1k for this upgrade.
thanks,
-Alfred
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 13:42: 2 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:40:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
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To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>
> Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s?
>
> I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment,
> right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to
> spend almost 1k for this upgrade.
We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can
do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty
accurate). Here are my make.conf settings:
CFLAGS= -O -pipe
NOPROFILE= true
COPTFLAGS= -O -pipe
USA_RESIDENT= YES
TOP_TABLE_SIZE= 32503
Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's
with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I
can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin*
HTH,
Doug
--
"Welcome to the desert of the real."
- Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 15:41: 6 1999
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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:10:22 +1030 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
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On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote:
> We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can
> do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty
> accurate). Here are my make.conf settings:
Well I think you're doing something wrong..
I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks
and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes..
Takes about 10 minutes for installworld..
---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
-- Andrew Tanenbaum
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 17:24: 3 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:22:59 -0600 (CST)
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>, chat@freebsd.org,
Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>
> On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote:
> > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can
> > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty
> > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings:
>
> Well I think you're doing something wrong..
>
> I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks
> and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes..
Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES
in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down.
In answer to the original question, I don't think that going to dual 600MHz
processors is worth the money. If the money is buring a hole in your
pocket, sure, but otherwise, nope.
David Scheidt
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From: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
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To: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, chat@freebsd.org,
Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, David Scheidt wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>
> >
> > On 01-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote:
> > > We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can
> > > do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty
> > > accurate). Here are my make.conf settings:
> >
> > Well I think you're doing something wrong..
> >
> > I have a dual PII-350 system with 128 meg of ram and crappy 5400 rpm IDE disks
> > and my fastest buildworld is 55 minutes..
Well, I would lay money that my crappy IDE drives are crappier
than yours. :) Now that my project is "official" as opposed to
"experimental" I'm working on getting some better ones.
> Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES
> in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down.
Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a
lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all
crashed, while the same exact sources compiled without -j just fine. (More
to come with that on freebsd-stable when then -j 2 test is done). I didn't
pay too much attention at the time, but IIRC the no -j make world
completed in just under 50 minutes. I didn't pay too much attention 'cuz I
thought -j would work and be much faster.
Thanks,
Doug
--
"Welcome to the desert of the real."
- Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 18:20:35 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:17:09 -0500
From: Cliff Crawford <cjc26@cornell.edu>
To: will andrews <andrews@technologist.com>
Cc: giffunip@asme.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: OpenBSD's armored fish
Message-ID: <19991201211709.E92449@cornell.edu>
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* will andrews <andrews@technologist.com> menulis:
> On 01-Dec-99 Pedro Fernando Giffuni wrote:
> > http://www.openbsd.org/
> >
> > First the good daemon, then a policeman, and now an armored fish!... and
> > I thought that Jordan armed was dangerous ;-).
>
> It's not just a FISH, it's a _BLOWFISH_! I like it. :-)
A blowfish armed with a nuclear warhead, that is. So I guess this
means that their servers not only prevent hackers from breaking in, they
do preemptive strikes against them as well :)
--
cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/
-><- Java is the COBOL of the 90s.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 19:42:51 1999
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Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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David Scheidt wrote:
> Indeed. My dual PII-400 256MB with LVD-SCSI disks does make -j8 -DNOGAMES
> in ~50 minutes. Try upping the number of jobs until it slows down.
I did a buildworld (just straight make buildworld- no funny options in
make.conf) on a uniprocessor PII 300, 192MB RAM, and UltraWide SCSI
disks, and it finished in 1 hour 18 minutes 32.69 seconds (~78.5min).
This is in full multiuser in regular operation, although its really not
under any load. I'm considering adding another this left over 300 here,
just gotta buy a VRM.
Cheers,
Sean
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From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 1 23: 1:33 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 23:29:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Doug Barton wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>
> >
> > Anyone here do a buildworld with dual PIII-600s?
> >
> > I'd like to know if dual 600s are worth the investment,
> > right now i have 2x400 but unsure if it's worth it to
> > spend almost 1k for this upgrade.
>
> We have some machines here with dual 550's and 1/2G of ram. I can
> do a full make world in c. 57 minutes (from memory, but that's pretty
> accurate). Here are my make.conf settings:
>
> CFLAGS= -O -pipe
> NOPROFILE= true
> COPTFLAGS= -O -pipe
> USA_RESIDENT= YES
> TOP_TABLE_SIZE= 32503
>
> Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's
> with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I
> can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin*
How are your filesystems mounted/what kind of disks?
Personally I've found that a higher -j can work even better, something
like 8 or even 12 works pretty good. (depends if I want to play mp3s
while building or not :) )
If you're not using softupdates or your FS's are mounted normally
how well do you fare with 'async'? With a clean slate (without NOCLEAN)?
thanks,
-Alfred
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:14:23 1999
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From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
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On Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 11:29:41PM -0800, a little birdie told me
that Alfred Perlstein remarked
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Doug Barton wrote:
> >
> > Other than that I just do a straight 'make -j4 -DNOCLEAN world'. That's
> > with both directories new and clean. If I'm doing a second make world I
> > can get it done in just under 42 minutes. *grin*
>
> How are your filesystems mounted/what kind of disks?
>
> Personally I've found that a higher -j can work even better, something
> like 8 or even 12 works pretty good. (depends if I want to play mp3s
> while building or not :) )
As a data point, I just started a buildworld when I left work last night.
This is a dual PPro 200/512k, 256 meg RAM, /usr/src and /usr/obj on
seperate 7200 RPM UW SCSI drives on an aic7880 controller.
After the build:
/dev/da3s1e on /usr/obj (ufs, asynchronous, NFS exported, local, noatime,
nosuid, writes: sync 82 async 44465)
/dev/da4s1e on /usr/src (ufs, asynchronous, NFS exported, local, noatime,
nosuid, writes: sync 6 async 44600)
mortis:/usr/src
root% time nice +20 make -j6 buildworld
....
7111.969u 2208.024s 1:38:44.38 157.3% 1386+1422k 32924+4824io 5880pf+0w
Could probably push it a bit faster with a higher -j (8 or 10), but I
didn't. X was running at the time, along with Netscape, ~30 xterms, and
a few other sundry thingymabobs.
--
Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net
Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com
Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/
FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting
"The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
haven't figured out how to light the middle yet"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:21:40 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199912022118.OAA28482@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: threads....
To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:18:45 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: kris@hub.freebsd.org, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org,
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <000401bf2e65$ffd3d2f0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 13, 99 10:03:40 pm
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I didn't see answers on this...
> > > Here's a perfect example of when threads matter.. i want the newest
> > > version of Licq. The newest, with all recent fixes, is 0.71. But i
> > > have to DL 0.61 because after that they became THREADED! I hope we have
> > > threads (kernel) soon.
> >
> > We already have threads. How exactly does licq (an ICQ client) rely on
> > kernel-supported threads (only needed for some level of SMP scalability?)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> You're joking right? Or do you think that real-world server applications
> don't mind if you freeze everything while the kernel services a page fault
> or reads a file from a slow disk?
The question is why the application is threaded; there are a
number of reasons to thread an application:
1) In order to have seperate, similar (or identical) "tasks"
operating in parallel. In other words, in order to obtain
multiple program counters.
NB: I believe this is th ICQ case
2) To achieve some level of concurrency on a UP system by
interleaving rather than serializing I/O.
NB: This can be accomplished using async I/O
NB: This can be accomplished using non-blocking I/O,
if the systems I/O subsystem is built to take
the hint that it got and queue the read-ahead
before returning the "EWOULDBLOCK" to user space
3) To achieve SMP scaling by giving the kernel scheduler
discrete object to apply the quanta from more than one
CPU, in order to get multiple CPUs into user space in
a single process.
If the kernel is servicing a trap, then the SMP lock on the
scheduler is held, and no other calls, traps, or interrupts
can enter the kernel until the current one has completed
servicing. This is true of FreeBSD and Linux systems, and, if
we discount interrupt processing in kernel threads, of BSDI, as
well. NT has proven, rather well, that tying network card
interrupts to particular CPUs, rather than running in a fully
symmetric virtual wire mode, one can achieve much better locality
of reference, and thus better performance. This is why Linux
lost on the Netcraft and ZDLabs tests against NT on quad processor,
quad ethernet Xeon systems, and why FreeBSD lost in the unpublished
ZDLabs testing on FreeBSD on the same systems.
Therefore, the only reason for kernel threads on FreeBSD, Linux,
or BSDI at this time is SMP scalability. As a means of SMP
scaling, this approach leaves a hell of a lot to be desired,
since it does not address the CPU affinity, thread group affinity,
or significantly increased context switch overhead issues.
If you are not running SMP, then a user space call conversion
scheduler utilizing async I/O or non-blocking I/O has much
better thread group affinity, and much lower context switch
overhead than a kernel threads implementation.
Hope that answers your question; if it doesn't, please see the
current discussion on -arch in the mailing list archives to see
what a real low overhead, SMP scalable, threading system has to
look like.
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:26:46 1999
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Message-Id: <199912022123.OAA28640@usr08.primenet.com>
Subject: Re: threads....
To: dmp@aracnet.com (D.M.P.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 21:23:38 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: davids@webmaster.com, kris@hub.freebsd.org,
jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > > I am referring to the case in question: an ICQ client. ICQ is not a
> > > high-performance server application, and does not require parallelism for
> > > performance reasons.
> >
> > Agreed.
>
> I'm by no stretch of the imagination familiar with how threading
> and process scheduling (is that the right phrase?) works beyond a
> basic definition, so please do excuse any blatant displays of
> ignorance. :)
>
> Do all threads within a program have the same PID (ps-wise), or would
> they each have their own PID, or does it depend on how the program is
> written?
It depends on the implementation of the threading system. Threads
are not guaranteed a unique PID; neither are they guaranteed a
non-unique PID. They are only guaranteed a unique thread ID within
a given multithreaded process.
> What about in the case where you have multiple live chat and file
> transfers going at once, where you have multiple seperate tasks, each
> with their own TCP connection? Does threading them help prevent one
> task from preempting another, or would that only be the case where
> each thread is it's own process with a unique PID?
This depends on your scheduling policy. See the pthreads man
pages for details. As a general rule, however, all threads
scheduling is supposed to assume that it may be preempted (that's
why there are threads mutexes and semaphores: to control race
conditions in case of preemption). One of the reasons that the
Netscape browsers on the Macintosh and FreeBSD have serious
problems is that they assume that the underlying implementation
will allow a running thread to run to completion, so they can
lock up (especially while running Java, especially while running
the non-reentrant, threads unsafe, GIF decoder).
Terry Lambert
terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:27:59 1999
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From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" <ejs@bfd.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: web browser alternatives to n-scape
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Moved to chat, as it isn't appropriate for questions at this point.
On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote:
> lynx is worse than Mosaic. Mosaic can't display frames. lynx can't
> display images. Netscape crashes and leaks memory.
Not displaying images is not always a disadvantage. Web pages come up
much faster that way :-) And don't get me started on frames.
http::/cybernut.com/death.html if you want my opinion. Of course, now
that some html artists are assuming that everyone has a cablemodem or
faster (I love showing people how their beautiful pages display on a 28.8
modem or on something smaller than a 17" monitor), I'm finding pages that
aren't usable without displaying graphics.
(The first thing they usually tell me every time I show them how slow it
is over a 28.8 is, "once it's cached, it will refresh much faster", to
which I point out that if a page takes over a minute to load, I'm going to
leave and not come back, so reload time is irrelevant).
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:28: 7 1999
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Subject: Re: threads....
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So after reading all that, does that mean NT will always have that
advantage over the free unixes?
-jm
------------------
Bayliss: "And that's another thing...
you never say 'please' and 'thank you.'"
Pendleton: "Please stop being an idiot. Thank you."
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 13:46:38 1999
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To: "Terry Lambert" <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: <freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: RE: threads....
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:46:14 -0800
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> > You're joking right? Or do you think that real-world server
> applications
> > don't mind if you freeze everything while the kernel services a
> page fault
> > or reads a file from a slow disk?
I'm not sure you read what I wrote, since you didn't respond to it.
> The question is why the application is threaded; there are a
> number of reasons to thread an application:
>
> 1) In order to have seperate, similar (or identical) "tasks"
> operating in parallel. In other words, in order to obtain
> multiple program counters.
>
> NB: I believe this is th ICQ case
This is the trivial case for threads. This can clearly be done in
user-space (and, IMO, should be).
> 2) To achieve some level of concurrency on a UP system by
> interleaving rather than serializing I/O.
>
> NB: This can be accomplished using async I/O
>
> NB: This can be accomplished using non-blocking I/O,
> if the systems I/O subsystem is built to take
> the hint that it got and queue the read-ahead
> before returning the "EWOULDBLOCK" to user space
Tell me, how do you handle a page fault asynchronously? Who does the kernel
return the 'EWOULDBLOCK' to?
> 3) To achieve SMP scaling by giving the kernel scheduler
> discrete object to apply the quanta from more than one
> CPU, in order to get multiple CPUs into user space in
> a single process.
Actually, this can be essential in the UP case as well. You may have a
high-priority subtask that needs to be scheduled a certain way and a
lower-priority subtask the needs to be scheduled somewhat different. It can
be nearly impossible to do this in a user-space scheduler.
> Therefore, the only reason for kernel threads on FreeBSD, Linux,
> or BSDI at this time is SMP scalability. As a means of SMP
> scaling, this approach leaves a hell of a lot to be desired,
> since it does not address the CPU affinity, thread group affinity,
> or significantly increased context switch overhead issues.
Actually, it's also needed for portability. There's an awful lot of code
out there written for kernel threads. It's a very non-trivial task to make
that use asynchronous I/O just for FreeBSD. So until FreeBSD gets real
kernel threads, that code will continue to run pitifully on it.
Also, making all your I/O non-blocking (even in the cases where it appears
through static analysis that it's very unlikely to block) is very expensive
computationally. You have to be ready to 'hold your place' everywhere.
If the block is likely, it's worth it. But if the block is extremely rare,
the cost of placeholding (just in case you block) will be enormous. The only
sane way to resolve it will be to do most of your I/O synchronously, and
you'll be left vulnerable to ambush on a surprise block, say due to a
failing local disk drive.
> Hope that answers your question; if it doesn't, please see the
> current discussion on -arch in the mailing list archives to see
> what a real low overhead, SMP scalable, threading system has to
> look like.
In the interests of keeping the signal to noise ration on -arch as high as
possible, I don't follow that newsgroup.
DS
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 14:50:51 1999
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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:48:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Jason DiCioccio <geniusj@phreebsd.org>
To: chat@freebsd.org
Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Vulnerability postings..
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Am I the only one that is not annoyed by the guy who is posting 3rd-party
programs as exploits for FreeBSD and making them sound like they come with
FreeBSD? It's giving FreeBSD a pretty bad reputation having 5 in a row
posted like that.. I say we send hitmen after him :-)
-JD-
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 15:26:20 1999
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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:26:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: Jason DiCioccio <geniusj@phreebsd.org>
Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings..
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On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Jason DiCioccio wrote:
> Am I the only one that is not annoyed by the guy who is posting 3rd-party
> programs as exploits for FreeBSD and making them sound like they come with
> FreeBSD?
They do come with FreeBSD :-)
> It's giving FreeBSD a pretty bad reputation having 5 in a row
> posted like that.. I say we send hitmen after him :-)
In my response to the bugtraq post I corrected which ones were actually
our fault and which not.
Kris
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 15:59:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:59:24 -0800
From: Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
Cc: Jason DiCioccio <geniusj@phreebsd.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings..
Message-ID: <19991202155924.A80952@wopr.caltech.edu>
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On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 03:26:17PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> In my response to the bugtraq post I corrected which ones were actually
> our fault and which not.
Just for the record, installing angband sgid was not a result of me
smoking crack. It is written to be installed that way, aside from the
fact that the author knows squat about security. (The source does not
ship with an install target, so I did write the code to install sgid.)
Grepping for "uid" in the source should make it clear that set[ug]id
functionality is intended.
As of today, the port installs non-sgid, but this requires two mode
1777 directories, breaks the high-score file, and probably lets
players do bad things to each others' ability to play the game.
Matt
--
Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu> * Stay close to the Vorlon.
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ *
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 18: 9:28 1999
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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:09:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu>
Cc: Jason DiCioccio <geniusj@phreebsd.org>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG,
advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings..
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On Thu, 2 Dec 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote:
> Just for the record, installing angband sgid was not a result of me
> smoking crack. It is written to be installed that way, aside from the
> fact that the author knows squat about security. (The source does not
> ship with an install target, so I did write the code to install sgid.)
>
> Grepping for "uid" in the source should make it clear that set[ug]id
> functionality is intended.
I suspected as much, but couldn't find anything to prove it when I checked
the source briefly.
> As of today, the port installs non-sgid, but this requires two mode
> 1777 directories, breaks the high-score file, and probably lets
> players do bad things to each others' ability to play the game.
Hmm. This isn't exactly a great solution either, but it's probably all you
can do - I suppose it's better than the previous situation, which would
give attackers all of the above plus more. I doubt there's much else we
could do short of fixing the source (maybe print a warning about the above
at install-time?). Thanks for jumping on this so fast..
Kris
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 18:25:32 1999
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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:25:13 -0800
From: Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
Cc: Jason DiCioccio <geniusj@phreebsd.org>, chat@freebsd.org,
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Subject: Re: Vulnerability postings..
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On Thu, Dec 02, 1999 at 06:09:24PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> could do short of fixing the source (maybe print a warning about the above
> at install-time?). Thanks for jumping on this so fast..
The known problems with the solution are displayed at install time.
I'm not in a position to do a security audit for the code, and I bet
it really sucks. The linker warns about it using tmpnam(3), which
is probably bad, too.
Thank you, too, for taking action on this and your explanation of the
problem.
Matt
--
Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu> * UNIX is a lever for the
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey
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From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 2 20:11:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:10:03 +1300
From: Jonathan Chen <jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz>
To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: So, what do we call the 00's?
Message-ID: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz>
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One quick poll that's been done in a few places lately is what to call
the decade of 2001-2009; ie we've got the Eighties, the Nineties, etc.
TIME's website poll had a few suggestions, but they missed out a
favourite of mine which was suggested on a London-based poll:
The Noughties.
I wonder what they called it during 1900-1909..?
--
Jonathan Chen
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Failure is not an option.
It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 6:45:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:45:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: freebsd-chat <chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: kernel threads
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I don't want to start another war here, but i have a question. I have a
_basic_ understanding of userland threads vs kernel threads, as well as
semaphores, mutexes, and locking.
I understand that there are a lot of issues to be settled if FreeBSD ever
decides to implement kernel threads. What i haven't seen (or what i may
have missed) is: when are they scheduled to be included in the system?
Are they tentative for 4.0? Or sometime beyond? Do us regular users need
to worry about massive instability problems with such a radically
different approach to multi-tasking? I know FreeBSD is concerned with
stability, and tests thoroughly, but obviously bugs will slip through, and
this is a major change in architecture, if i understand correctly.
-jm
------------------
Bayliss: "And that's another thing...
you never say 'please' and 'thank you.'"
Pendleton: "Please stop being an idiot. Thank you."
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 10:17:29 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:16:58 -0600
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Jonathan Chen <jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz>
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 05:10:03PM +1300, a little birdie told me
that Jonathan Chen remarked
> One quick poll that's been done in a few places lately is what to call
> the decade of 2001-2009; ie we've got the Eighties, the Nineties, etc.
ITYM 2001-2010.
I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
mowing people down with a MAC10.
--
Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net
Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com
Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/
FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting
"The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
haven't figured out how to light the middle yet"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 10:35:35 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:37:17 -0500
From: Dan Moschuk <dan@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
Cc: Jonathan Chen <jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz>,
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Message-ID: <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net>
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| ITYM 2001-2010.
|
| I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
| at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
| the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
| mowing people down with a MAC10.
How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD?
... or even better, PikachuBSD!
--
Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org)
"Cure for global warming: One giant heatsink and dual fans!"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 11:41:57 1999
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On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 01:37:17PM -0500, Dan Moschuk wrote:
>
> | ITYM 2001-2010.
> |
> | I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
> | at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
> | the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
> | mowing people down with a MAC10.
>
> How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD?
>
Looks like you're the first person Matthew's going to come after with
that MAC10 :)
> ... or even better, PikachuBSD!
> --
> Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org)
> "Cure for global warming: One giant heatsink and dual fans!"
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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--
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 11:46:40 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:46:32 -0600
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Dan Moschuk <dan@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Jonathan Chen <jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz>,
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Message-ID: <19991203134632.K22444@futuresouth.com>
References: <19991203171002.A23900@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com> <19991203133717.D2067@spirit.jaded.net>
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On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 01:37:17PM -0500, a little birdie told me
that Dan Moschuk remarked
>
> | ITYM 2001-2010.
> |
> | I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
> | at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
> | the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
> | mowing people down with a MAC10.
>
> How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD?
*budda budda*
AAAIGH!!!!
"Choke on your blood for the 394 days remaining, buddy..."
--
Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net
Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com
Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/
FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting
"The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
haven't figured out how to light the middle yet"
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 13:26: 9 1999
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Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:15:22 -0600
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkitech.net>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19991203121658.I22444@futuresouth.com>
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At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
>I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
>at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
>the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
>mowing people down with a MAC10.
Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks
about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did
not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
Adam
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 14:11:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:09:34 -0800
From: Jason Evans <jasone@canonware.com>
To: Jonathon McKitrick <jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
Cc: freebsd-chat <chat@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: kernel threads
Message-ID: <19991203140934.I44892@sturm.canonware.com>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.9912031441210.99342-100000@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
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On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 02:45:27PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote:
> I understand that there are a lot of issues to be settled if FreeBSD ever
> decides to implement kernel threads. What i haven't seen (or what i may
> have missed) is: when are they scheduled to be included in the system?
> Are they tentative for 4.0? Or sometime beyond? Do us regular users need
> to worry about massive instability problems with such a radically
> different approach to multi-tasking? I know FreeBSD is concerned with
> stability, and tests thoroughly, but obviously bugs will slip through, and
> this is a major change in architecture, if i understand correctly.
As Jordan is so fond of pointing out, FreeBSD as a free software project is
generally unable to realistically say, "such and such vaporware will be
ready for release X". That's because most of the developers don't get paid
for the work, and so are under no obligation to deliver at all, let alone
by an arbitrary deadline.
What can be said is that the current visions for the "ultimate" threading
system will *not* be part of 4.0; there is simply too much to do for it to
be ready in two weeks, no matter how hard anyone tries. The userland
threads support is in pretty good shape, and work is being done to get the
LinuxThreads port whipped into shape by the time 4.0 is released. Neither
solution is ideal, but they will have to do until the new threading
architecture and all the prerequisite SMP improvements are developed.
Jason
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 14:22: 6 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 3, 1999 03:15:22 pm"
To: adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:20:58 -0700 (MST)
Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller),
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> >I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
> >at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
> >the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
> >mowing people down with a MAC10.
>
> Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks
> about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did
> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
Don't you mean 2049? :)
Ken
--
Kenneth Merry
ken@kdm.org
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 18:30: 3 1999
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Message-Id: <199912040233.VAA32666@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991203151522.0097fb90@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 3, 1999 03:15:22 pm"
To: adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 21:33:58 -0500 (EST)
Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller),
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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G. Adam Stanislav wrote,
> At 12:16 03-12-1999 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> >I swear, if I see just *ONE* more TV commercial, Budweiser can, trinket
> >at Wal-Mart, etc, that say a damn thing about the 'Millenium' or 'Welcome
> >the 21st century', I'm going to just have a complete breakdown and start
> >mowing people down with a MAC10.
>
> Thank you! I thought I was the only one who doesn't get it when NBC talks
> about the "last game of the century" and things like that, as if they did
> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
I've heard some scary rumblings lately about a widespread Millenium
Bug in computers around the world. Just think, a year after the Y2k
bug, we'll have another problem to deal with!
*duck*
Anyhow, going against all of the traditions on -chat, I have something
useful to add to this thread. The question as to what the first decade
of the 21st century, 2001-2010, should be called and what the first
decade of this century, 1901-1910, was called has been handled by the
World's Smartest Human, Cecil Adams. He came to the following
conclusion: The 1900's were called... drum roll please...
Nothing.
Kind of a let down, but Cecil says so.
More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to,
http://www.straightdope.com
To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full
URL of the article in question.
--
Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 18:58: 2 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 02:56:43 +0000
From: Mark Ovens <mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org>
To: cjclark@home.com
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkitech.net>,
"Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>,
freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote:
> G. Adam Stanislav wrote,
> More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to,
>
> http://www.straightdope.com
>
> To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full
> URL of the article in question.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/940930.html
> --
> Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
--
PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet"
and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw"
- Computer Shopper 12/99
________________________________________________________________
FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org
My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/
mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 19:22: 4 1999
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Message-Id: <199912040323.WAA32797@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <19991204025643.B320@marder-1> from Mark Ovens at "Dec 4, 1999 02:56:43 am"
To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 22:23:26 -0500 (EST)
Cc: cjclark@home.com, adam@whizkitech.net (G. Adam Stanislav),
fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller),
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Mark Ovens wrote,
> On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote:
> > G. Adam Stanislav wrote,
> > More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to,
> >
> > http://www.straightdope.com
> >
> > To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full
> > URL of the article in question.
>
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/940930.html
That's not the one.
I think this is a plot just to make me look it up.
It worked,
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/960920.html
--
Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:21:49 1999
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Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 01:04:20 -0600
To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
>> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
>> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
>
>Don't you mean 2049? :)
No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
Of course, I *could* have missed even something like that as I was in a
very bad physical shape for a couple months in the mid of this year (turned
out to be diabetes and is now under control).
Cheers,
Adam
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:26:40 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991204010420.00967810@mail85.pair.com> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at "Dec 4, 1999 01:04:20 am"
To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:25:44 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> >
> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
>
> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
Ken
--
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:39:47 1999
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To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav),
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 04 Dec 1999 00:25:44 MST."
<199912040725.AAA62727@panzer.kdm.org>
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
>> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
>> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
>> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
>> >
>> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
>>
>> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
>
>Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
>starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ.
People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0',
the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units
like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the
start of the next millenium.
-DG
David Greenman
Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org
Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com
Pave the road of life with opportunities.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:44:43 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Dec 3, 1999 11:37:09 pm"
To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:42:55 -0700 (MST)
Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav),
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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David Greenman wrote...
> >G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> >> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> >> >
> >> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
> >>
> >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
> >
> >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
> >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
>
> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
> it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ.
> People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0',
> the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units
> like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the
> start of the next millenium.
The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So the
year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C.
Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever reason
they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0.
Ken
--
Kenneth Merry
ken@kdm.org
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From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 3 23:51:49 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Dec 3, 1999 11:37:09 pm"
To: dg@root.com
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:51:42 -0700 (MST)
Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav),
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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David Greenman wrote...
> >G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> >> >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> >> >
> >> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
> >>
> >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
> >
> >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
> >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
>
> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
> it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ.
> People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0',
> the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units
> like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the
> start of the next millenium.
FWIW, here's a reasonable description of why the millennium starts in 2001:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html
Ken
--
Kenneth Merry
ken@kdm.org
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To: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc: atrn@zeta.org.au, David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>,
chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Video Stupidity
References: <Pine.NEB.3.96.991121092009.83742A-100000@shell-2.enteract.com> <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost>
From: Juergen Nickelsen <jnickelsen@acm.org>
Date: 04 Dec 1999 00:10:15 +0100
In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:36:08 -0700"
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Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> writes:
> I just found a reference to the ONLY portable cassette recorder
> that Sony claims to make. It's at
>
> http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/portable/walkmanrtmstereos/walkmanrtmrecordingstereos/wm-d6c.shtml
>
> Would you pay $400 for a recorder?
Some months ago I paid DEM 400 (~ 200 US$) for a portable Minidisk
recorder -- by Sony. Of course, I know that ATRAC is not suited for
umlimited digital copying due to accumulation of compression
artifacts, but it's much closer to the Nagra than a recording
Walkman.
--
Juergen Nickelsen
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 3:19: 4 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:18:41 +0000
From: Mark Ovens <mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org>
To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
Cc: dg@root.com, "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:42:55AM -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> David Greenman wrote...
> > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000.
> > >> >> Or, that I was the only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> > >> >
> > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
> > >>
> > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
> > >
> > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were
> > >numbered starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
> >
> > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I
> > think it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the
> > birthdate of Christ. People don't start out being one year old, so
> > although there was no 'year 0', the time before the first full
> > year would have been measured in smaller units like months and
> > days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the start
> > of the next millenium.
>
> The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So
> the year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C.
>
> Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever
> reason they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0.
>
Because counting from 1 is convention, its only "purists" like
programmers, mathematicians etc who count from 0. When you are taught
to count at school it's from 1 to 10, not 0 to 9.
> Ken
> --
> Kenneth Merry
> ken@kdm.org
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
--
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and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw"
- Computer Shopper 12/99
________________________________________________________________
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 6: 7:49 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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David Greenman wrote:
> >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
> >starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
>
> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
> it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ.
> People don't start out being one year old, so although there was no 'year 0',
> the time before the first full year would have been measured in smaller units
> like months and days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the
> start of the next millenium.
Like the month number denotes which month we're currently progressing
through, the year number denotes which year we're currently progressing
through. Going on this logic, it won't be until Jan 1, 2001 that 2000
years will have passed and the new millenium begun.
--
[dmp@aracnet.com]
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 9:31: 4 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:29:46 -0500 (EST)
From: jack <jack@germanium.xtalwind.net>
To: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>,
"G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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On Dec 3 David Greenman wrote:
> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
> it is wrong.
The US Naval Observatory and the Royal Observatory Greenwich
don's share your view. :)
From www.usno.navy.mil/millennium/whenis.html
mil*len*ni*um \ \ n, pl -nia or -niums: a period of 1000 years
The end of the second millennium and the beginning of the third
will be reached on January 1, 2001. This date is based on the now
globally recognized Gregorian calendar, the initial epoch of
which was established by the sixth-century scholar Dionysius
Exiguus, who was compiling a table of dates of Easter. Rather
than starting with the year zero, years in this calendar begin
with the date January 1, 1 Anno Domini (AD). Consequently, the
next millennium does not begin until January 1, 2001 AD.
From www.rog.nmm.ac.uk/leaflets/new_mill.html
3. When do the 3rd Millennium and the 21st Century start?
A millennium is an interval of 1000 years and a century is an
interval of 100 years. In the Gregorian Calendar, which we use,
there is no year zero and
the sequence of years near the start runs as follows;
..., 3BC, 2BC, 1BC, 1AD, 2AD, ...
Because there is no year zero, the first year of the calendar
ends at the end of the year named 1AD. By a similar argument 100
years will only have elapsed at the end of the year 100AD. Since
2000AD is the 2,000th year of the Christian calendar, two
millenia will have elapsed at midnight on 31 December 2000. So
the 3rd Millennium and the 21st Century will begin at the same
moment, namely zero hours UTC (commonly known as GMT) on January
1st 2001.
3.1 The Origin of the Christian Era.
Early in the 6th century AD, Dionysius Exiguus (Denys the
Little), a monk and astronomer from Scythia now SW Russia,
compiled a table of dates for Easter in terms of the Diocletion
calendar. He decided to reset the system of counting years to
honour the birth of Christ so that the year 248 Anno Diocletiani
became the year 532 Anni Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, known as 532
AD for short. In his scheme he believed that Christ was born on
the 25th of December of the year preceding the start of the year
1 AD. From our modern point of view, Dionysius Exiguus made two
errors. Firstly and quite understandably, he left out the year
zero, because the number zero had not yet been `discovered' in
the West. His second error was in thinking that Christ was born
at the end of the year 1BC. Modern research indicates that Christ
was probably born in 6BC and certainly by 4BC when Herod died.
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 10: 0: 3 1999
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
In-Reply-To: <19991204111841.B319@marder-1> from Mark Ovens at "Dec 4, 1999 11:18:41 am"
To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:01:53 -0500 (EST)
Cc: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry), dg@root.com,
adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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Mark Ovens wrote,
> On Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:42:55AM -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> > David Greenman wrote...
> > > >G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> > > >> At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> > > >> >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000.
> > > >> >> Or, that I was the only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Don't you mean 2049? :)
> > > >>
> > > >> No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
> > > >
> > > >Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were
> > > >numbered starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
> > >
> > > I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I
> > > think it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the
> > > birthdate of Christ. People don't start out being one year old, so
> > > although there was no 'year 0', the time before the first full
> > > year would have been measured in smaller units like months and
> > > days. If this is the case, then the year 2000 would be the start
> > > of the next millenium.
> >
> > The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So
> > the year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C.
> >
> > Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever
> > reason they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0.
> >
>
> Because counting from 1 is convention, its only "purists" like
> programmers, mathematicians etc who count from 0. When you are taught
> to count at school it's from 1 to 10, not 0 to 9.
There are times when counting from 0 is the common usage. For example,
people count hours of the day (on a 24 hour clock) from 00.
For whatever reason, people who think the third millennium starts at
the 1999-2000 rollover don't also believe that you should call the
first hour after midnight on the 31st "1", and then party when the
clock goes from 23rd to 24th hour (at 11 PM) which is how they are
counting years.
All of that aside, we all know deep down that this is all
meaningless. It next year it will have been 2000 years
since... since... well, it's 2000 years past a point that a monk
came up with in a miscalculation about 1500 years ago. And what's so
special about 2000? 2000 = 2^4 * 5^3. Oooh... shivers.
In the end, the fact that the thousands place is rolling over on the
Common Era year is as much of a reason to party as 2000 years passing
since the beginning of the CE. Some people don't realize that they
occur at two different times, but that just means they lose out on an
extra excuse to get excited about nothing.
--
Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 10:30:51 1999
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From: "Freddie Cash" <fcash@bigfoot.com>
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:29:14 -0800
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Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com
Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>,
Jonathan Chen <jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz>, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
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> > How about we name 4.0-RELEASE MillenumBSD?
> > ... or even better, PikachuBSD!
PikacuBSD: Server performance that will shock you!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Freddie
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 11:23:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:22:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Geoffrey Robinson <geoff@grobin.org>
To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
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On Sat, 4 Dec 1999, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> G. Adam Stanislav wrote...
> > At 15:20 03-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
> > >> not expect anything to happen throughout the year 2000. Or, that I was the
> > >> only one who knows that Y2K = year 2048.
> > >
> > >Don't you mean 2049? :)
> >
> > No, I don't. Unless they changed powers of 2 and I missed it. :-)
>
> Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
> starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
Actually
((1 + 2000) / 1000) * 1024 = 2049.024
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| Geoffrey Robinson - geoff@grobin.org |
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Fortune Quote
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:11 1999
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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 00:49:32 -0600
To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 00:25 04-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
>Just as the new millennium starts in 2001 because the years were numbered
>starting at 1 (1 + 2000 == 2001), 1 + 2048 == 2049.
So? I'm talking about a specific year (Y2K), not about centuries or
millenia here. 2K = 2048. By your logic the expression "year 2000" would
really be describing the year 2001. That's Space Odyssey. The year 2049
would be Y2K1, or perhaps Y2K[1], or even 1[Y2K].
Besides, if it were to refer to an overflow bug, an unsigned 10-bit year
would overflow in 2048, not 2049. As a matter of fact, I would not be a bit
surprised if some software did experience the Y2K bug in 2048 since some
programs do pack a date into "sufficiently large" bit fields, and a 10-bit
field was sufficiently large for many years (and will be for almost half a
century).
Come to think of it, I probably *would* be surprised, not about the bug,
but about me still being around at the ripe old age of 94. :)
Cheers,
Adam
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:11 1999
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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 01:08:45 -0600
To: dg@root.com
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 23:37 03-12-1999 -0800, David Greenman wrote:
> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think
>it is wrong. The calander is supposedly based on the birthdate of Christ.
The keyword is "supposedly". It has since been determined that he was not
born at the "start of the calendar" so it is a moot point.
There indeed was no year 0, as any book describing the Julian Date
algorithm affirms.
The 20th Century started on 01-01-1901. The 21st Century starts on 01-01-2001.
That alone does not make the upcoming year 2000 any less special. Not
because it starts a new millenium but because in the mid 20th Century
people were looking forward to it as the time by when all our problems will
be solved.
When I was a school kid, my teachers often said that such and such thing
was not possible yet, but it surely would be in the year 2000. The science
fiction stories of the 1950's often took place in the year 2000. That is,
until Space Odyssey which was placed in 2001. And that makes me very sad:
In the 1960's the prospect of far space travel in 2001 seemed quite
realistic. But for that to happen, it would take a lot of effort these
days! That's sad.
On the other hand, in the 1960's it also seemed realistic human race would
not live to see 2000 because of an impending nuclear holocaust. That did
not happen, and is not likely to happen anymore. And thank goodness for
that! Still possible, mind you, but not likely.
Cheers,
Adam
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From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 4 23:32:19 1999
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Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 01:20:58 -0600
To: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>, dg@root.com
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's?
Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 00:42 04-12-1999 -0700, Kenneth D. Merry wrote:
>The calendar skips from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. There's no zero year. So the
>year before the first full year A.D. was 1 B.C.
>
>Although it is roughly based on the birth of Christ, for whatever reason
>they decided to start numbering at 1 instead of 0.
I believe the reason was that the mathematical significance of 0 was not
discovered yet. Back then, a year 0 would have been an absurdity. They did
not even have a Roman numeral for 0. Zero was not a number, it was the lack
of a number. It signified non-existence. In the minds of the people of that
era a year 0 simply could not exist.
Not just era, but place too. The situation could have been different in
other parts of the world, for example in India they developed the concept
of 0, and a digit for it, long before.
Cheers,
Adam
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