From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  1:38:24 1999
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To: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Intel 82559 based NIC support: Where?
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 01:32:11 -0700
From: Steven E Lumos <slumos@sam.ISRI.UNLV.EDU>
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According to some posts I've found with deja and by searching the
mailing lists, these cards are now supported in the fxp driver.  Since
the string "82559" does not appear either in the CVS logs, nor the
latest version of the driver available for CVS, I need somebody to tell
me which version of the driver has 82559 support.  Specifically, is
there a version that I can build in a 3.1 source tree, and if not then
what is the minimum amount of work I can do to get a working system
with this card supported.

One of the posts I saw said that there was support in 3.2, but the
GENERIC 3.2 kernel (from the June 1999 CDs) doesn't recognise the
card.  The card is an Intel InBusiness 10/100.

Thanks in advance.

Steve


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  3:16: 3 1999
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To: Steven E Lumos <slumos@sam.ISRI.UNLV.EDU>
Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Intel 82559 based NIC support: Where? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 01:32:11 MST."
             <19990905083820.B7AF014CEF@hub.freebsd.org> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:14:13 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Steven E Lumos wrote:
> 
> According to some posts I've found with deja and by searching the
> mailing lists, these cards are now supported in the fxp driver.  Since
> the string "82559" does not appear either in the CVS logs, nor the
> latest version of the driver available for CVS, I need somebody to tell
> me which version of the driver has 82559 support.  Specifically, is
> there a version that I can build in a 3.1 source tree, and if not then
> what is the minimum amount of work I can do to get a working system
> with this card supported.
> 
> One of the posts I saw said that there was support in 3.2, but the
> GENERIC 3.2 kernel (from the June 1999 CDs) doesn't recognise the
> card.  The card is an Intel InBusiness 10/100.

Find out what the device ID is.  I have an 82559 card running right now,
and it ran under 3.1-RELEASE as well as it's software compatable with the
82557/8.

Under -current:  pciconf -l reports:
fxp0@pci0:11:0: class=0x020000 card=0x000c8086 chip=0x12298086 rev=0x08 hdr=0x00

Under 3.1-release (network installed from floppy), and later upgraded to
3.2-stable:

Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE #0: Mon Feb 15 11:08:08 GMT 19
99
[..]
Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: fxp0: <Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet> re
v 0x08 int a irq 11 on pci0.11.0
Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: fxp0: Ethernet address 00:90:27:58:42:9f

The card was an OEM version, I don't know *exactly* what it's called, and it
has no identifying marks, but it's intel-style model number is: 721383-006.
This is on the sticker on the front next to the ethernet address and 
another number "10927", which could mean anything.

The Intel docs for this chip say explicitly that it's software compatable
with drivers for older versions.

An older board with an 82557 or 558 on the motherboard has:
fxp0@pci0:6:0:  class=0x020000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x12298086 rev=0x01 hdr=0x00
The device ID's are the same, just a lower revision number.    ^^^^^^^^

> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Steve

Cheers,
-Peter



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  6:32:35 1999
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From: Rene de Vries <rene@canyon.demon.nl>
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Subject: Re: FBSD3.3RC + UMAX astra 1220S + NCR810 => panic
In-Reply-To: <199909042352.RAA27822@panzer.kdm.org> from "Kenneth D. Merry" at "Sep 4, 1999 05:52:47 pm"
To: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:26:43 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: rene@canyon.demon.nl (Rene de Vries), freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
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Ken,

Unfortunately the AIC7890 has a 68pin HD connector for which I don't have a
cable. As far as the scanner goes: I didn't expect it to have a decent SCSI
implementation, this is the reason I used a separate NCR810 to connect it to
my system. But I find it strange that the system panics on this
configuration, if something is wrong I expected the kernel to complain but
not panic (you could call a panic the ultimate way for the kernel to compain,
but this was not very helpfull). I'll try to get my hands on an
25 (Centronics) <-> 68pin HD cable (is there someone near Delft, NL that
has such a cable that I can borrow for a day or two?).
Whould it help if I took my old PC and installed FreeBSD 2.2.6 (the latest
2.2R i've got) and see what happens?

Rene

> Rene de Vries wrote...
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Today I bought a Umax 1220S scanner and tried to connect this to my FreeBSD
> > Stable (3.3RC) system. I added a NCR810 specially for the scanner (I don't
> > want such a device on the same bus as my root disk which is on an aic7890).
> > The kernel boots perfectly with both scsi adapters configured
> > (as expected ;-), but as soon as the scanner is connected to the NCR810
> > the kernel panics.
> > The scanner is the only device on that bus and termination is ok.
> > The message is: "cam_periph_error: scsi status of CHECK COND returned but no
> > sense information is availible. Controller should have returned
> > CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED" (line 1441 of cam_periph.c). As far as understand the
> > comments there, this means that the ncr810 driver did something cam did not
> > expect. (This all happens during booting, at the time when the devices are
> > probed.)
> > For now I've connected the scanner to my other PC running W95 where its
> > seems to work as expected.
> > I hope someone can help me finding what the problem is and how to fix it.
> 
> It sounds like there may be a couple of things going on.  First, your
> scanner may not be returning sense information properly.
> 
> Second, the NCR driver may be doing something wrong.
> 
> It would be helpful if you could hook this up to your 7890 controller and
> see what happens.  In general, the Adaptec driver behaves a little better
> than the NCR driver.
> 
> Ken

-- 
Rene de Vries                    http://www.tcja.nl/~rene; mailto:rene@tcja.nl


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  6:47:24 1999
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From: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>
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To: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
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On Sat, 4 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:

> Does FreeBSD support Write Combining on K6 processors?
> 
> Randall
> 

Do you mean the MTRR support for K6-2 and above? Yes, that's in 3.3 and 4.0.

-- 
 Brian Fundakowski Feldman           /  "Any sufficiently advanced bug is    \
 green@FreeBSD.org                   |   indistinguishable from a feature."  |
     FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!    \        -- Rich Kulawiec               /



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  7: 1:16 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 10:00:40 -0400
From: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
To: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990905100040.A5109@ipass.net>
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Brian F. Feldman:
 |Randall Hopper:
 |> Does FreeBSD support Write Combining on K6 processors?
 |
 |Do you mean the MTRR support for K6-2 and above? Yes, that's in 3.3 and 4.0.

Great!  Thanks.

     Do you know what the status is on the XFree86-FreeBSD MTRR interface
that was being hammered out (to coordinate write-combine setup on the frame
buffer)?  All I find in Dejanews is:

    http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=452806764      
    http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=502908632

     Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE :-)

Thanks,

Randall


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  7:18: 8 1999
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To: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:

> Brian F. Feldman:
>  |Randall Hopper:
>  |> Does FreeBSD support Write Combining on K6 processors?
>  |
>  |Do you mean the MTRR support for K6-2 and above? Yes, that's in 3.3 and 4.0.
> 
> Great!  Thanks.
> 
>      Do you know what the status is on the XFree86-FreeBSD MTRR interface
> that was being hammered out (to coordinate write-combine setup on the frame
> buffer)?  All I find in Dejanews is:
> 
>     http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=452806764      
>     http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=502908632

Well, from 3.9.16, I get
(==) NV(0): Write-combining range (0xcc000000,0x1000000)                        :-)

Nice to know that my work ...errr works.

> 
>      Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE :-)

Use cvsup to go to 3.3-STABLE.

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Randall
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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> 

-- 
 Brian Fundakowski Feldman           /  "Any sufficiently advanced bug is    \
 green@FreeBSD.org                   |   indistinguishable from a feature."  |
     FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!    \        -- Rich Kulawiec               /



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  8:16:39 1999
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5  8:47: 3 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 11:46:53 -0400
From: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
To: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@freebsd.org>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990905114653.A6259@ipass.net>
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Brian F. Feldman:
 |Well, from 3.9.16, I get
 |(==) NV(0): Write-combining range (0xcc000000,0x1000000)                        :-)
 |
 |Nice to know that my work ...errr works.

Great!  Thanks for the good piece of work.

 |>      Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE :-)
 |
 |Use cvsup to go to 3.3-STABLE.

Hmmm...  I've got a stable OS now, so any upgrade makes me a little
nervous.  But I'll read up on it.  (Might be easier to wait for 3.3-R since
I hear we're in kernel freeze).

Thanks,

Randall


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 10:56:35 1999
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From: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
To: John Baldwin <jobaldwi@vt.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Subject: Re: Proposal: Add generic username for 3rd-party MTA's 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 03 Sep 1999 20:34:22 -0400."
             <199909040034.UAA02063@sable.cc.vt.edu> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 19:55:36 +0200
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On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 20:34:22 -0400, John Baldwin wrote:

> It was the adding a new user/group just for the sake of adding a new
> user/group that bothered many of us. ;)

I've learned to accept that argument on principle is inevitable.

:-)

Later,
Sheldon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 11:28:14 1999
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Subject: Re: Linux StarOffice51 runs on -stable
To: mi@aldan.algebra.com (Mikhail Teterin)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:26:42 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de
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> > > Before  running  soffice for  the  first  time  -- apply  the  trick
> > > described by Andre Albsmeier on

> > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=432982+436209+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-hackers/19980628.freebsd-hackers

> > > to the freshly installed lib/libosl516li.so

> > > 	mv libosl516li.so libosl516li.so.bak
> > > 	sed -e 's,/proc/%u/cmdline,/compat/linux/so,' \
> > > 		< libosl516li.so.bak > libosl516li.so
> > > 	touch /compat/linux/so

> > I don't think this one is needed anymore ?!?

> It is. Without it, soffice keeps bringing up setup over and over instead
> of just starting the damn office.

Well, my copy calls this file libosl517li.so, and doing this "sed" trick on
it just makes it exit without doing anything. Not doing it gives me the
previously noted "can't get out of setup" problem. And my .sversionrc file
looked like it was fine.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 11:42:19 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles501.castles.com [208.214.165.65])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id AE04514D89; Sun,  5 Sep 1999 11:42:14 -0700 (PDT)
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 10:00:40 EDT."
             <19990905100040.A5109@ipass.net> 
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> Brian F. Feldman:
>  |Randall Hopper:
>  |> Does FreeBSD support Write Combining on K6 processors?
>  |
>  |Do you mean the MTRR support for K6-2 and above? Yes, that's in 3.3 and 4.0.
> 
> Great!  Thanks.
> 
>      Do you know what the status is on the XFree86-FreeBSD MTRR interface
> that was being hammered out (to coordinate write-combine setup on the frame
> buffer)?  All I find in Dejanews is:

The MTRR interface in FreeBSD was developed under consultation with the 
XFree86 and Xi Graphics folks.  I haven't heard any complaints from 
them lately.

>      Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE :-)

You could try to backport the two sets of commits I just made to the 
-stable branch, but you might be better off moving to -stable or to 
3.3-RELEASE.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:20:33 1999
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199909051845.UAA05110@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: FBSD3.3RC + UMAX astra 1220S + NCR810 => panic
In-Reply-To: <199909042352.RAA27822@panzer.kdm.org> from "Kenneth D. Merry" at "Sep 4, 1999  5:52:47 pm"
To: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:45:42 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: rene@canyon.demon.nl, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands
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As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ...
> Rene de Vries wrote...
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Today I bought a Umax 1220S scanner and tried to connect this to my FreeBSD
> > Stable (3.3RC) system. I added a NCR810 specially for the scanner (I don't
> > want such a device on the same bus as my root disk which is on an aic7890).
> > The kernel boots perfectly with both scsi adapters configured
> > (as expected ;-), but as soon as the scanner is connected to the NCR810
> > the kernel panics.
> > The scanner is the only device on that bus and termination is ok.
> > The message is: "cam_periph_error: scsi status of CHECK COND returned but no
> > sense information is availible. Controller should have returned
> > CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED" (line 1441 of cam_periph.c). As far as understand the
> > comments there, this means that the ncr810 driver did something cam did not
> > expect. (This all happens during booting, at the time when the devices are
> > probed.)
> > For now I've connected the scanner to my other PC running W95 where its
> > seems to work as expected.
> > I hope someone can help me finding what the problem is and how to fix it.
> 
> It sounds like there may be a couple of things going on.  First, your
> scanner may not be returning sense information properly.
> 
> Second, the NCR driver may be doing something wrong.
> 
> It would be helpful if you could hook this up to your 7890 controller and
> see what happens.  In general, the Adaptec driver behaves a little better
> than the NCR driver.

The relevant code snippet is:

 } else if (ccb->csio.scsi_status ==
                                   SCSI_STATUS_CHECK_COND
                                && status != CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAIL) {
                                /* no point in decrementing the retry count
*/
                                panic("cam_periph_error: scsi status of "
                                      "CHECK COND returned but no sense "
                                      "information is availible.  "
                                      "Controller should have returned "
                                      "CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED");
                                /* NOTREACHED */
                                error = EIO;

Even if we assume the scanner yelled for attention and/or the ncr
driver is at fault I don't really understand why the cam layer 
decides to panic the machine. Wouldn't it be sufficient to return
EIO, or maybe just whine on the console? 

IIRC I've seen systems report 'no sense' in their log files in situations
like this (non-FreeBSD systems that is). So I *guess* there are 
SCSI devices out there that exhibit this behaviour..

Wilko
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:21:11 1999
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Message-ID: <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 15:24:33 -0400
From: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
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Subject: PCI modems do not work???
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 Well.. i just looked through some archives and also on the
recent traffic in freebsd-questions.
 It seems there are great many people that have same problem i do - apparently
our beloved system does not support PCI modems? Now if i am wrong here -
kick me and ignore the rest of the message.
 If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).
 I don't think for someone with understanding of low level drivers implementing
this should be too hard? After all all the difference AFAIK is in how interrupts
are delivered from a device. It still has the same ports, doesn't it?

If this is not fixed soon FreeBSD users won't be able to get a modem working
at all... and then how the hell is this going to be a network system?:))))
--Ugen



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:27:18 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from celery.dragondata.com (celery.dragondata.com [205.253.12.6])
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909051927.OAA30398@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
To: ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:27:33 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com> from "Ugen Antsilevitch" at Sep 05, 1999 03:24:33 PM
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> 
>  Well.. i just looked through some archives and also on the
> recent traffic in freebsd-questions.
>  It seems there are great many people that have same problem i do - apparently
> our beloved system does not support PCI modems? Now if i am wrong here -
> kick me and ignore the rest of the message.
>  If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
> 56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
> was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).
>  I don't think for someone with understanding of low level drivers implementing
> this should be too hard? After all all the difference AFAIK is in how interrupts
> are delivered from a device. It still has the same ports, doesn't it?
> 
> If this is not fixed soon FreeBSD users won't be able to get a modem working
> at all... and then how the hell is this going to be a network system?:))))
> --Ugen
> 
> 

I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit the
sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone looked at this
before and could possibly give any suggestions as to how I should begin
this?

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:27:38 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133])
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:27:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:

>  Well.. i just looked through some archives and also on the
> recent traffic in freebsd-questions.
>  It seems there are great many people that have same problem i do - apparently
> our beloved system does not support PCI modems? Now if i am wrong here -
> kick me and ignore the rest of the message.
>  If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
> 56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
> was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).
>  I don't think for someone with understanding of low level drivers implementing
> this should be too hard? After all all the difference AFAIK is in how interrupts
> are delivered from a device. It still has the same ports, doesn't it?
> 
> If this is not fixed soon FreeBSD users won't be able to get a modem working
> at all... and then how the hell is this going to be a network system?:))))

If you want one, then you have to write one.  No one who knows how to do
that wants to support something like that.

I *think* that the way that modems are going is not going to eliminate
regular modems (and it's _certainly_ not done that yet).

> --Ugen
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:33:42 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:33:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <199909051927.OAA30398@celery.dragondata.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:

> > 
> >  Well.. i just looked through some archives and also on the
> > recent traffic in freebsd-questions.
> >  It seems there are great many people that have same problem i do - apparently
> > our beloved system does not support PCI modems? Now if i am wrong here -
> > kick me and ignore the rest of the message.
> >  If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
> > 56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
> > was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).
> >  I don't think for someone with understanding of low level drivers implementing
> > this should be too hard? After all all the difference AFAIK is in how interrupts
> > are delivered from a device. It still has the same ports, doesn't it?
> > 
> > If this is not fixed soon FreeBSD users won't be able to get a modem working
> > at all... and then how the hell is this going to be a network system?:))))
> > --Ugen
> > 
> > 
> 
> I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit the
> sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone looked at this
> before and could possibly give any suggestions as to how I should begin
> this?

Are you aware that the least part of making this work is the PCI
interface question?  What's needed is the entire AT command set, and
sometimes all the dsp processing too.  What's left on those PCI modems
isn't as smart as my wind up alarm clock.  The only reason interfacing
isn't a Windows nightmare is because of the Bios that all the Winmodems
have (there isn't any standard for this strange interface).

> 
> Kevin
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:40: 1 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 15:39:07 -0400
From: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
Message-ID: <19990905153907.A7373@ipass.net>
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Mike Smith:
 |> Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE
 |
 |You could try to backport the two sets of commits I just made to the 
 |-stable branch, but you might be better off moving to -stable or to 
 |3.3-RELEASE.

Ok, I might try that.  From Brian's message, it sounds like he's made some
commits for MTRR.  Would I need those as well (or are your commits the work
he spoke of).

Randall





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:41:34 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 14:42:07 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day),
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909051530020.89177-100000@picnic.mat.net> from "Chuck Robey" at Sep 05, 1999 03:33:04 PM
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> 
> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > >  Well.. i just looked through some archives and also on the
> > > recent traffic in freebsd-questions.
> > >  It seems there are great many people that have same problem i do - apparently
> > > our beloved system does not support PCI modems? Now if i am wrong here -
> > > kick me and ignore the rest of the message.
> > >  If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
> > > 56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
> > > was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).
> > >  I don't think for someone with understanding of low level drivers implementing
> > > this should be too hard? After all all the difference AFAIK is in how interrupts
> > > are delivered from a device. It still has the same ports, doesn't it?
> > 
> > I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit the
> > sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone looked at this
> > before and could possibly give any suggestions as to how I should begin
> > this?
> 
> Are you aware that the least part of making this work is the PCI
> interface question?  What's needed is the entire AT command set, and
> sometimes all the dsp processing too.  What's left on those PCI modems
> isn't as smart as my wind up alarm clock.  The only reason interfacing
> isn't a Windows nightmare is because of the Bios that all the Winmodems
> have (there isn't any standard for this strange interface).
> 

No, I'm working on adding support for PCI based non-winmodems. Modems that
still have a 16550 based uart interface to them, but just happen to sit on
the PCI bus. I'm not at all planning on writing support for winmodems, just
making sio.c understand UARTs on the PCI bus.

There *are* PCI modems out there that aren't winmodems, they're just hard to
find. 3Com makes one, as well as a few other companies.

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 12:59: 5 1999
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	(envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:16:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: mckusick@freebsd.org
Subject: VFS stuff agein, VOP_FSYNC and async lock notification.
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909051207100.6392-100000@fw.wintelcom.net>
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I've been doing quite a bit of reasearch on NFS lately and some
issues have come up:

async locks, fsync, and a certain person returning from vacation.

1) async locks

To avoid polling on locks by the userland rpc.lockd I'd like to 
be able to queue a lock on a file.  This can also help database
like systems.

I'd like some suggestions to a notification method for the kernel
to notify a process of locks it has gained.

Perhaps even something that can lead to a generic async notification
model.

2) VOP_FSYNC

I noticed that there seems to be no method besideds mmap and msync
to force a partial update on files.  I have a proposal that addresses
this.

add an argument to the VOP_FSYNC call to take an offset and a length.

add a syscall pfsync, and pfsyncv, pfsync would take a filehandle,
offset and length to flush, and pfsyncv would take a an array somewhat
like a iovec that specified regions to flush.

pfsyncv would run through the array calling VOP_FSYNC on the regions.

filesystems that don't support partial sync will default to a complete
sync... or return EOPNOTSUPP?  My inclination is to silently do a 
complete fsync.

If I start on pfsync the only code at first will be to add the arguments
to the VOP, I think I can manage getting partial syncs to work in UFS,
and probably NFS, the rest will be the default.

3) someone on vacation

I've been told by my sponsor and other committers  to wait until
Kirk McKusick gets back from vacation for a review of my VFS diffs...

I've heard you're back.

Kirk, can you please look at:

http://big.endian.org/~bright/freebsd/in_progress/vfs-fhsyscall.mp.diff
(VFS_CHECKEXP on a mount point)
and
http://big.endian.org/~bright/freebsd/in_progress/vfs-fhsyscall.diff
(VFS_CHECKEXP on a vnode)

The diffs add fhopen, fhstat, and fhstatfs syscalls (from NetBSD).
There is also some cleanup of the VFS system by pointing all
unsupported VFS calls to functions in kern/sys_generic.c that seem
to handle the default cases pretty well.  

It also splits the VFS_FHTOVP into 2 VFS operations, VFS_FHTOVP no
longer does access checks, that is done in the derived VFS_CHECKEXP,
VFS_FHTOVP now does only what it stands for, filehandle to vnode
pointer.

Any comments/critisizm you can offer?  I think I'm more in favor
of the first set of diffs.

I'm also signed up for your second session at FreeBSDcon, I 
really look forward to it.  See you in October. :)

thanks,
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer
   - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net]




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 13: 7:30 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" <ejs@bfd.com>
To: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:

>  If i am right - this really has to be fixed and soon. There aren't many ISA
> 56K modems out there that aren't winmodems. On my last search everything that
> was 56K was divided about 80% winmodems and 20% PCI modems (with UART).

I think if you investigate, you'll find that that 20% for PCI modems
breaks down to 15% PCI winmodems and 5% "self-contained" modems.  I've got
a URL around here somewhere that discusses the issues.  If I can find, it,
I'll post it.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 13:13: 5 1999
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Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 16:17:48 -0400
From: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
References: <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com>
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Hey!

 Thanx a lot first of all!

Anytime i CAN write something myself - i do. I  can go as low as networking code
or pseudodevice driver. But i am at loss when it comes to hardware (and within
my scope of work etc. i doubt i will ever learn this stuff). Thats why i pleaded for help.

 I volonteer to be your first alpha-tester. I have this modem blaster thing. It is PCI and
it has a UART. I was going to sell it and shell out lots of money for USRobotics
56K ISA real modem. BTW they call it "legacy" modem - i think the general direction
is such that PCI will be the only kind available very soon...
 Well..actually i listed my modem on ebay to get rid of it , but if your code comes
first - i will try to keep it.

--Ugen


>
> No, I'm working on adding support for PCI based non-winmodems. Modems that
> still have a 16550 based uart interface to them, but just happen to sit on
> the PCI bus. I'm not at all planning on writing support for winmodems, just
> making sio.c understand UARTs on the PCI bus.
>
> There *are* PCI modems out there that aren't winmodems, they're just hard to
> find. 3Com makes one, as well as a few other companies.
>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 13:46:17 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 48607153D9; Sun,  5 Sep 1999 13:45:57 -0700 (PDT)
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	Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:44:55 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 16:44:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: jack <jack@germanium.xtalwind.net>
To: peter@taronga.com
Cc: Mikhail Teterin <mi@aldan.algebra.com>, stable@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de
Subject: Re: Linux StarOffice51 runs on -stable
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The different results people are having may be a result of the
date of their FreeBSD.

It Works Here[tm] OOTB (setup requires the LD_LIBRARY_PATH set) 
with the following
-current of about Aug 22nd
-stable of Aug 26th
-stable of Sep 2nd
-stable of Sep 4th

It does not work here with
-current of Jun 26th (the SNAP CD)
The program just recalls the setup screen

-stable of Aug something with SMP
setup and the program both freeze with a ton of kernel messages
about forking shared memory

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack O'Neill                    Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst
jack@germanium.xtalwind.net     Crystal Wind Communications, Inc.
          Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key.
   PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67   FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD
               enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null
--------------------------------------------------------------------------




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 17:17:24 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:09:35 +1000
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch)
From: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199909051927.OAA30398@celery.dragondata.com>
References: <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
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At 02:27 PM 9/5/99 -0500, Kevin Day wrote:
>I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit the
>sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone looked at this
>before and could possibly give any suggestions as to how I should begin
>this?

I might also point out, that other multiport comms cards are now starting 
to appear with PCI interface, and something even more important to me at 
this point, a number of ACTIVE ISDN cards have just been released (and some 
about to be released), that support the AT command set and basically just 
look like a couple of serial ports, except they have a PCI interface...

I'd really like to see the sio driver code being able to support PCI devices...

My 2c worth...  ;-)

Warren
wwelch@intraceptives.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 17:27:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:26:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>
X-Sender: green@janus.syracuse.net
To: Randall Hopper <aa8vb@ipass.net>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:

> Mike Smith:
>  |> Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE
>  |
>  |You could try to backport the two sets of commits I just made to the 
>  |-stable branch, but you might be better off moving to -stable or to 
>  |3.3-RELEASE.
> 
> Ok, I might try that.  From Brian's message, it sounds like he's made some
> commits for MTRR.  Would I need those as well (or are your commits the work
> he spoke of).

It may be worth specifying that k6_mem.c should be disabled in RELENG_3 pending
further investigation of problems with the MTRR interfeace (i.e. that it can
corrupt other memory...) For now, it's unsafe.

> 
> Randall
> 
> 
> 

-- 
 Brian Fundakowski Feldman           /  "Any sufficiently advanced bug is    \
 green@FreeBSD.org                   |   indistinguishable from a feature."  |
     FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!    \        -- Rich Kulawiec               /



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 17:40:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from penelope.skunk.org (penelope.skunk.org [208.133.204.51])
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	for <hackers@freebsd.org>; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:43:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Rosengart <ben@skunk.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: placement of vi in the filesystem
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052038390.49673-100000@penelope.skunk.org>
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I'm sure this is old ground, but could anyone please tell me why vi is
in /usr/bin instead of /bin?  It would be nice to be able to edit files
in /etc (especially the fstab) without /usr mounted on a vanilla install.

--
 Ben

UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
StarMedia Network, Inc.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 18: 5:47 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <199909051927.OAA30398@celery.dragondata.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:
> I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit
> the sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone
> looked at this before and could possibly give any suggestions as to
> how I should begin this?

It looks really ugly.

The real problem is the 'isa_get_foo()' calls that are used.  I've got a
small start of splitting out the ISA bits from the probe/attach routines
but I'm really not sure what the best way to solve these issues is.
(They're the same issues I'm dealing with on the if_ed driver...)

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 18:33:12 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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          5 Sep 99 18:26 PDT
To: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Intel 82559 based NIC support: Where? 
In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au> 
   of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:14:13 +0800." <19990905101413.D66861CA8@overcee.netplex.com.au> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 18:26:05 -0700
From: Steven E Lumos <slumos@sam.ISRI.UNLV.EDU>
Message-Id: <19990906013307.8BA5115007@hub.freebsd.org>
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Thanks! Mine reports (after patching):

fxp0@pci0:13:0: class=0x020000 card=0x10308086 chip=0x10308086 rev=0x08 hdr=0x00

I have no clue what is really the right way to do it, but here is
the tiny patch I made anyway:

*** if_fxpreg.h.orig    Sat Sep  4 13:33:29 1999
--- if_fxpreg.h Sun Sep  5 14:30:42 1999
***************
*** 29,34 ****
--- 29,35 ----
  
  #define FXP_VENDORID_INTEL    0x8086
  #define FXP_DEVICEID_i82557   0x1229
+ #define FXP_DEVICEID_i82559   0x1030
  
  #define FXP_PCI_MMBA  0x10
  #define FXP_PCI_IOBA  0x14

*** if_fxp.c.orig       Sat Sep  4 13:33:29 1999
--- if_fxp.c    Sun Sep  5 14:40:44 1999
***************
*** 510,516 ****
        if (((device_id & 0xffff) == FXP_VENDORID_INTEL) &&
            ((device_id >> 16) & 0xffff) == FXP_DEVICEID_i82557)
                return ("Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet");
! 
        return NULL;
  }
  
--- 510,518 ----
        if (((device_id & 0xffff) == FXP_VENDORID_INTEL) &&
            ((device_id >> 16) & 0xffff) == FXP_DEVICEID_i82557)
                return ("Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet");
!         else if (((device_id & 0xffff) == FXP_VENDORID_INTEL) &&
!                  ((device_id >> 16) & 0xffff) == FXP_DEVICEID_i82559)
!                      return ("Intel InBusiness 10/100 Ethernet");
        return NULL;
  }
  
For anyone who is interested, I bought these cards at CompUSA because
they were cheap.  There is a sticker on them with the net address
followed by "32913" and then "742252-001".

Steve

Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>:
>Steven E Lumos wrote:
>> 
>> According to some posts I've found with deja and by searching the
>> mailing lists, these cards are now supported in the fxp driver.  Since
>> the string "82559" does not appear either in the CVS logs, nor the
>> latest version of the driver available for CVS, I need somebody to tell
>> me which version of the driver has 82559 support.  Specifically, is
>> there a version that I can build in a 3.1 source tree, and if not then
>> what is the minimum amount of work I can do to get a working system
>> with this card supported.
>> 
>> One of the posts I saw said that there was support in 3.2, but the
>> GENERIC 3.2 kernel (from the June 1999 CDs) doesn't recognise the
>> card.  The card is an Intel InBusiness 10/100.
>
>Find out what the device ID is.  I have an 82559 card running right now,
>and it ran under 3.1-RELEASE as well as it's software compatable with the
>82557/8.
>
>Under -current:  pciconf -l reports:
>fxp0@pci0:11:0: class=0x020000 card=0x000c8086 chip=0x12298086 rev=0x08 hdr=0x
>00
>
>Under 3.1-release (network installed from floppy), and later upgraded to
>3.2-stable:
>
>Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE #0: Mon Feb 15 11:08:08 GMT 
>19
>99
>[..]
>Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: fxp0: <Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet> 
>re
>v 0x08 int a irq 11 on pci0.11.0
>Aug 30 12:59:14 auth /kernel: fxp0: Ethernet address 00:90:27:58:42:9f
>
>The card was an OEM version, I don't know *exactly* what it's called, and it
>has no identifying marks, but it's intel-style model number is: 721383-006.
>This is on the sticker on the front next to the ethernet address and 
>another number "10927", which could mean anything.
>
>The Intel docs for this chip say explicitly that it's software compatable
>with drivers for older versions.
>
>An older board with an 82557 or 558 on the motherboard has:
>fxp0@pci0:6:0:  class=0x020000 card=0x00000000 chip=0x12298086 rev=0x01 hdr=0x
>00
>The device ID's are the same, just a lower revision number.    ^^^^^^^^
>
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Steve
>
>Cheers,
>-Peter
>


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 18:36:30 1999
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From: Mark Newton <newton@internode.com.au>
Message-Id: <199909060135.LAA13139@gizmo.internode.com.au>
Subject: Re: placement of vi in the filesystem
To: ben@skunk.org (Ben Rosengart)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:05:36 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052038390.49673-100000@penelope.skunk.org> from "Ben Rosengart" at Sep 5, 99 08:43:38 pm
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Ben Rosengart wrote:

 > I'm sure this is old ground, but could anyone please tell me why vi is
 > in /usr/bin instead of /bin?  It would be nice to be able to edit files
 > in /etc (especially the fstab) without /usr mounted on a vanilla install.

/bin/ed

    - mark

----
Mark Newton                               Email:  newton@internode.com.au (W)
Network Engineer                          Email:  newton@atdot.dotat.org  (H)
Internode Systems Pty Ltd                 Desk:   +61-8-82232999
"Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton"  Mobile: +61-416-202-223


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 18:40: 4 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:38:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@ubergeeks.com>
Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@ubergeeks.com>
To: Ben Rosengart <ben@skunk.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: placement of vi in the filesystem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052038390.49673-100000@penelope.skunk.org>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Ben Rosengart wrote:

> I'm sure this is old ground, but could anyone please tell me why vi is
> in /usr/bin instead of /bin?  It would be nice to be able to edit files
> in /etc (especially the fstab) without /usr mounted on a vanilla install.

	IIRC, because vi has a lot of bagage like termcap and curses.  I
know it's rough, but you do have ed when in single-user mode.

	On the other hand I built a static nvi and put it in /tmp with a
copy of termcap and set the TERMCAP variable.  With only / mounted, nvi did
just fine, and it only took 460592 and 188100 bytes for the static nvi and
termcap respectivly.  620K isn't much to argue about these days unless you
want it on a floppy.

cheers,

	Adrian
--
[ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ]




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 19:59:49 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909060257.UAA01671@harmony.village.org>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey),
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 14:42:07 CDT."
		<199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com> 
References: <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com>  
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 20:57:51 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com> Kevin Day writes:
: No, I'm working on adding support for PCI based non-winmodems. Modems that
: still have a 16550 based uart interface to them, but just happen to sit on
: the PCI bus. I'm not at all planning on writing support for winmodems, just
: making sio.c understand UARTs on the PCI bus.
: 
: There *are* PCI modems out there that aren't winmodems, they're just hard to
: find. 3Com makes one, as well as a few other companies.

SIO doesn't support anything but isa attachments right now.  Its probe
and attach routines need to be corrected to not be ISA specific.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 20: 1: 5 1999
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To: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 10:09:35 +1000."
		<4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> 
References: <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au>  <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 21:00:00 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> Warren Welch writes:
: I'd really like to see the sio driver code being able to support PCI
: devices... 

Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.

Warner



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 20:33:23 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from oracle.dsuper.net (oracle.dsuper.net [205.205.255.1])
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:33:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bosko Milekic <bmilekic@dsuper.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org
Subject: mbuf shortage situations
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	This post is somewhat in relation to the "local DoS" thread
started on --security a few days ago.

	To slightly put things back into context: The panic() signaling
"out of mbuf clusters" is a result of the initial MGET failing, calling
m_retry, and failing again. Since we seem to be okay with waiting (e.g.:
M_WAIT), and we fail in getting an mbuf cluster, m_retry panic()s.
	As far as what I've understood from glancing at some OpenBSD and
NetBSD code, I'm pretty sure that they both handle this situation the same
way we handle it if the m_retry is called with M_DONTWAIT, which is to
return null to MGET, which would consequently set the mbuf structure
pointer (in this case, struct mbuf *m) to null. This would probably result
in packet loss.
	The only reason that I see for which we would actually panic() in
this situation (as opposed to suffer the packet loss) is if we get to the
point where we're losing packets because some script kid starts up
something that will eat up sockbuf space and continuously fork, then we
would lose all remote access to the machine in question (since all packets
would be dropped) and we wouldn't really mind a panic() for obvious
practical reasons.
	In any case, I, personally, would prefer to suffer packet loss as
opposed to a panic (especially now that Brian is in the process of writing
diffs that will allow us to limit socket buffer space per UID through
login.conf!)
	Having MGET store that null (e.g. fail as opposed to panic) on a
M_WAIT seems fairly easy to fix, and would probably require some patching
that would ensure that the packet loss is handeled relatively 'cleanly'
(probably some debugging), but I wouldn't mind doing this. However, I'd
like to know if there are objections to doing this or, in fact, if there
are any suggestions on how to handle mbuf shortage situations (aside from
just limiting -- although limiting is in itself a good solution and I'm
glad that Brian F. is working on that).

Cheers,
Bosko.

/*
 * Bosko Milekic <bmilekic@dsuper.net>   http://www.dsuper.net/~bmilekic/
 * "A method of solution is perfect if we can foresee from the start, and
 *  even prove, that by following that method we shall obtain our aim."
 */




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 20:43:41 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: "Robert Kuan" <sysx@worldnet.att.net>
To: <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: "rkwan" <rkwan@visa.com>
Subject: FreeBSD install questions
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 20:43:27 -0700
Message-ID: <LOBBLBFBNBDIPAEPDGJJEEAICAAA.sysx@worldnet.att.net>
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Hi,

I have a few questions on FreeBSD installation; I hope you would help me to
answer them.

1.	How to change the labels and modify the FreeBSD Booteasy. I.e.,

From:      F1  ??
           F2  DOS
           F3  DOS
           F4  FreeBSD
           F5  Disk1

 to    F1 WinNT 4.0
       F2  (delete, not in used – empty partition)
       F3  Win98
       F4  FreeBSD 3.2
       F5 Solaris 2.7

2.	How to install the Solaris Boot Record so I can use Booteasy to boot
from,
Right now, when I push F5 from Booteasy, it gives error message: Boot Record
not found.

3.	How to set up my computer to make a dial in to my ISP. Please provide me
the steps or example to do the setup.
    My ISP is worldnet.att.net using:
    User ID/account no. is 740136022@worldnet.att.net
    Password is abcdefghijk12
    Phone for ISP is (415) 276-0107
    Pop3 – in coming mail is postoffice.worldnet.att.net
    Pop3 – out going mail is mailhost.wordnet.att.net
    Mail account ID is SysX
    Email password is  122345678mm
    Email address is sysx@worldnet.att.net
    My modem is in COM2

I have tried several combonations of setup but it doesn’t work, I would like
to FTP the FreeBSD update from my computer.

Thank you very much for your kind reply.

Sincerely,
Robert Kuan
Sysx@worldnet.att.net
rkwan@visa.com






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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 21:18:59 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [209.157.86.2])
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909060418.VAA70623@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Bosko Milekic <bmilekic@dsuper.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
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:	The only reason that I see for which we would actually panic() in
:this situation (as opposed to suffer the packet loss) is if we get to the
:point where we're losing packets because some script kid starts up
:something that will eat up sockbuf space and continuously fork, then we
:would lose all remote access to the machine in question (since all packets
:would be dropped) and we wouldn't really mind a panic() for obvious
:practical reasons.
:	In any case, I, personally, would prefer to suffer packet loss as
:opposed to a panic (especially now that Brian is in the process of writing
:diffs that will allow us to limit socket buffer space per UID through
:login.conf!)
:	Having MGET store that null (e.g. fail as opposed to panic) on a
:M_WAIT seems fairly easy to fix, and would probably require some patching
:that would ensure that the packet loss is handeled relatively 'cleanly'
:(probably some debugging), but I wouldn't mind doing this. However, I'd
:like to know if there are objections to doing this or, in fact, if there
:are any suggestions on how to handle mbuf shortage situations (aside from
:just limiting -- although limiting is in itself a good solution and I'm
:glad that Brian F. is working on that).
:
:Cheers,
:Bosko.

    The issue is basically having someone find the time to figure out
    how to gracefully unwind various pieces of network code when an
    mbuf cannot be allocated.  Once that is done, the panic can be
    turned into a (rate-limited) printf.

					-Matt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 21:55:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from eclogite.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (eclogite.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp [133.6.124.145])
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	Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:53:48 +0900 (JST)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
From: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
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Once securelevel has been increased, no process can decrease it because
kernel always refuse decreasing it.  This is inconsistent with the
manual page of init:

     The kernel runs with four different levels of security.  Any super-user
     process can raise the security level, but only init can lower it.

Is there any security problem to implement this?  If no, could someone
review following patch?

kato

---------- BEGIN ----------
*** kern_mib.c.ORIG	Mon Sep  6 13:46:40 1999
--- kern_mib.c	Mon Sep  6 13:49:44 1999
***************
*** 178,184 ****
  		error = sysctl_handle_int(oidp, &level, 0, req);
  		if (error || !req->newptr)
  			return (error);
! 		if (level < securelevel)
  			return (EPERM);
  		securelevel = level;
  		return (error);
--- 178,184 ----
  		error = sysctl_handle_int(oidp, &level, 0, req);
  		if (error || !req->newptr)
  			return (error);
! 		if (level < securelevel && req->p->p_pid != 1)
  			return (EPERM);
  		securelevel = level;
  		return (error);
---------- END ----------

-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>  |        FreeBSD           |
Dept. Earth Planet. Sci, Nagoya Univ.          |    The power to serve!   |
Nagoya, 464-8602, Japan                        |  http://www.FreeBSD.org/ |
++++ FreeBSD(98) 3.2:   Rev. 01 available!     |http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/|
++++ FreeBSD(98) 2.2.8: Rev. 02 available!     +==========================+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:13: 2 1999
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From: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:12:15 +1000
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
Message-ID: <19990906151211.A21968@gurney.reilly.home>
References: <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com> <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> <199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org>
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On Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 09:00:00PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> Warren Welch writes:
> Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.

And USB?  This reference says that you can (now? soon?) buy a
laptop docking station with all of the usual ports, connected
only by USB...

http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.piusb.htm

Hmm.  What sort of level of nesting do we support for this sort
of thing?  It's probably possible to buy USB interface cards
that plug into ISA, PCI, SCSI?  And vice-versa?

-- 
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:15: 8 1999
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	Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:13:48 +1000
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:13:48 +1000
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG,
	kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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>Once securelevel has been increased, no process can decrease it because
>kernel always refuse decreasing it.  This is inconsistent with the
>manual page of init:
>
>     The kernel runs with four different levels of security.  Any super-user
>     process can raise the security level, but only init can lower it.
>
>Is there any security problem to implement this?  If no, could someone
>review following patch?

The patch just backs out rev.1.9:

RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/kern_mib.c,v
Working file: kern_mib.c
head: 1.25
...
----------------------------
revision 1.9
date: 1997/06/25 07:31:47;  author: joerg;  state: Exp;  lines: +2 -2
Don't ever allow lowering the securelevel at all.  Allowing it does
nothing good except of opening a can of (potential or real) security
holes.  People maintaining a machine with higher security requirements
need to be on the console anyway, so there's no point in not forcing
them to reboot before starting maintenance.

Agreed by:	hackers, guido
----------------------------

There used to be security holes that allowed root to lower `securelevel'
using init.  Rev.1.9 defends against any undiscovered holes.

Bruce


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:15:17 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Subject: Re: FBSD3.3RC + UMAX astra 1220S + NCR810 => panic
In-Reply-To: <199909051326.PAA00703@canyon.demon.nl> from Rene de Vries at "Sep 5, 1999 03:26:43 pm"
To: rene@canyon.demon.nl (Rene de Vries)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:13:56 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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--ELM936594835-33868-0_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rene de Vries wrote...
> > It sounds like there may be a couple of things going on.  First, your
> > scanner may not be returning sense information properly.
> > 
> > Second, the NCR driver may be doing something wrong.
> > 
> > It would be helpful if you could hook this up to your 7890 controller and
> > see what happens.  In general, the Adaptec driver behaves a little better
> > than the NCR driver.
> 
> Unfortunately the AIC7890 has a 68pin HD connector for which I don't have a
> cable. As far as the scanner goes: I didn't expect it to have a decent SCSI
> implementation, this is the reason I used a separate NCR810 to connect it to
> my system. But I find it strange that the system panics on this
> configuration, if something is wrong I expected the kernel to complain but
> not panic (you could call a panic the ultimate way for the kernel to compain,
> but this was not very helpfull). I'll try to get my hands on an
> 25 (Centronics) <-> 68pin HD cable (is there someone near Delft, NL that
> has such a cable that I can borrow for a day or two?).
> Whould it help if I took my old PC and installed FreeBSD 2.2.6 (the latest
> 2.2R i've got) and see what happens?

I'm not sure installing 2.2.6 would be that helpful, since it probably
won't exhibit the same behavior.

Here are some things to try:

 - if you can, put the scanner on your 7890
 - turn the panic statement into a printf

If you turn it into a printf, that may give us a better idea of just what
command is failing.  The attached patch for cam_periph.c should do the
trick.  The patch is against -current, but I think it should apply to
-stable okay.

I haven't checked to make sure it compiles or works, so you may have to
tweak it if it doesn't.

Ken
-- 
Kenneth Merry
ken@kdm.org

--ELM936594835-33868-0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=cam_periph_panic.patch.090599
Content-Description: cam_periph_panic.patch.090599
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

==== //depot/cam/sys/cam/cam_periph.c#74 - /a/ken/perforce/cam/sys/cam/cam_periph.c ====
*** /tmp/tmp.25426.0	Sun Sep  5 23:10:36 1999
--- /a/ken/perforce/cam/sys/cam/cam_periph.c	Sun Sep  5 23:10:02 1999
***************
*** 1434,1445 ****
  				   SCSI_STATUS_CHECK_COND
  				&& status != CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAIL) {
  				/* no point in decrementing the retry count */
! 				panic("cam_periph_error: scsi status of "
  				      "CHECK COND returned but no sense "
! 				      "information is availible.  "
! 				      "Controller should have returned "
! 				      "CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED");
! 				/* NOTREACHED */
  				error = EIO;
  			} else if (ccb->ccb_h.retry_count > 0) {
  				/*
--- 1434,1448 ----
  				   SCSI_STATUS_CHECK_COND
  				&& status != CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAIL) {
  				/* no point in decrementing the retry count */
! 				printf("cam_periph_error: scsi status of "
  				      "CHECK COND returned but no sense "
! 				      "information is availible.\n"
! 				      "cam_periph_error: Controller should "
! 				      "have returned CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED\n");
! 
! 				retry = ccb->ccb_h.retry_count > 0;
! 				if (retry)
! 					ccb->ccb_h.retry_count--;
  				error = EIO;
  			} else if (ccb->ccb_h.retry_count > 0) {
  				/*

--ELM936594835-33868-0_--


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:19:48 1999
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Message-Id: <199909060517.XAA02790@harmony.village.org>
To: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:12:15 +1000."
		<19990906151211.A21968@gurney.reilly.home> 
References: <19990906151211.A21968@gurney.reilly.home>  <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com> <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> <199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 23:17:48 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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[[ questions trimmed ]]
In message <19990906151211.A21968@gurney.reilly.home> "Andrew Reilly" writes:
: And USB?  This reference says that you can (now? soon?) buy a
: laptop docking station with all of the usual ports, connected
: only by USB...
: 
: http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.piusb.htm
: 
: Hmm.  What sort of level of nesting do we support for this sort
: of thing?  It's probably possible to buy USB interface cards
: that plug into ISA, PCI, SCSI?  And vice-versa?

USB doesn't present a 16550A interface to the host, so I don't think
that sio would have a USB attachment.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:21:25 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909060520.XAA34103@panzer.kdm.org>
Subject: Re: FBSD3.3RC + UMAX astra 1220S + NCR810 => panic
In-Reply-To: <199909051845.UAA05110@yedi.iaf.nl> from Wilko Bulte at "Sep 5, 1999 08:45:42 pm"
To: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:20:25 -0600 (MDT)
Cc: rene@canyon.demon.nl, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" <ken@kdm.org>
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Wilko Bulte wrote...
> As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ...
> > It sounds like there may be a couple of things going on.  First, your
> > scanner may not be returning sense information properly.
> > 
> > Second, the NCR driver may be doing something wrong.
> > 
> > It would be helpful if you could hook this up to your 7890 controller and
> > see what happens.  In general, the Adaptec driver behaves a little better
> > than the NCR driver.
> 
> The relevant code snippet is:
> 
>  } else if (ccb->csio.scsi_status ==
>                                    SCSI_STATUS_CHECK_COND
>                                 && status != CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAIL) {
>                                 /* no point in decrementing the retry count
> */
>                                 panic("cam_periph_error: scsi status of "
>                                       "CHECK COND returned but no sense "
>                                       "information is availible.  "
>                                       "Controller should have returned "
>                                       "CAM_AUTOSENSE_FAILED");
>                                 /* NOTREACHED */
>                                 error = EIO;
> 
> Even if we assume the scanner yelled for attention and/or the ncr
> driver is at fault I don't really understand why the cam layer 
> decides to panic the machine. Wouldn't it be sufficient to return
> EIO, or maybe just whine on the console? 

Well, perhaps.  My guess is that the intent was to catch problems with
incorrectly written device drivers.  It looks like it may have caught a
problem in the NCR driver somewhere. I can't remember the rationale behind
having a panic instead of a printf at the moment.

> IIRC I've seen systems report 'no sense' in their log files in situations
> like this (non-FreeBSD systems that is). So I *guess* there are 
> SCSI devices out there that exhibit this behaviour..

Apparantly so.  I sent Rene a patch to turn the panic into a printf.  The
idea is that the error will get propagated back up, and we may be able to
get a better idea of just what is failing.

Ken
-- 
Kenneth Merry
ken@kdm.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:24:38 1999
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To: bde@zeta.org.au
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
From: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:13:48 +1000"
	<199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au> wrote:

> There used to be security holes that allowed root to lower `securelevel'
> using init.  Rev.1.9 defends against any undiscovered holes.

How about following change?

----------
*** init.8.ORIG	Mon Sep  6 14:20:46 1999
--- init.8	Mon Sep  6 14:23:01 1999
***************
*** 92,99 ****
  .Dq secure .
  .Pp
  The kernel runs with four different levels of security.
! Any super-user process can raise the security level, but only 
! .Nm
  can lower it.
  The security levels are:
  .Bl -tag -width flag
--- 92,98 ----
  .Dq secure .
  .Pp
  The kernel runs with four different levels of security.
! Any super-user process can raise the security level, but no process
  can lower it.
  The security levels are:
  .Bl -tag -width flag
----------

-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>  |        FreeBSD           |
Dept. Earth Planet. Sci, Nagoya Univ.          |    The power to serve!   |
Nagoya, 464-8602, Japan                        |  http://www.FreeBSD.org/ |
++++ FreeBSD(98) 3.2:   Rev. 01 available!     |http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/|
++++ FreeBSD(98) 2.2.8: Rev. 02 available!     +==========================+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:27:33 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:26:06 +1000
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199909060526.PAA13689@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: bde@zeta.org.au, kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
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>> There used to be security holes that allowed root to lower `securelevel'
>> using init.  Rev.1.9 defends against any undiscovered holes.
>
>How about following change?

OK.

Bruce


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:35: 2 1999
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From: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>
Organization: Lake DSP
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Subject: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:23:38 +1000
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On Mon, 06 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> : http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.piusb.htm
> :
> : Hmm.  What sort of level of nesting do we support for this sort
> : of thing?  It's probably possible to buy USB interface cards
> : that plug into ISA, PCI, SCSI?  And vice-versa?
> 
> USB doesn't present a 16550A interface to the host, so I don't think
> that sio would have a USB attachment.

So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
the Annex ethernet terminal server things?  I guess in the Windows world
they must provide 16550-virtualisation software, or else everyone's copy of
Telix or TeraTerm won't work.  Or the parallel ports vs parallel-port
scanners.  Or maybe these docking stations just won't work at all...

--
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:41:44 1999
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To: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:23:38 +1000."
             <9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home> 
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> > USB doesn't present a 16550A interface to the host, so I don't think
> > that sio would have a USB attachment.
> 
> So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
> to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
> the Annex ethernet terminal server things? 

Presuming we are able to get any documentation out of any of these 
vendors; so far USB serial ports have been one of the worst things to 
enquire about.

> I guess in the Windows world
> they must provide 16550-virtualisation software, or else everyone's copy of
> Telix or TeraTerm won't work.  Or the parallel ports vs parallel-port
> scanners.  Or maybe these docking stations just won't work at all...

Anything running under Windows uses the Windows COM driver or a
replacement.  If it's running in a DOS box, then it uses the 16550
virtualisation services that Windows offers, which layers over the COM
driver or workalike.

Basically, the same way that OS/2 does it.


-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:42:47 1999
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To: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???) 
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:23:38 +1000."
		<9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home> 
References: <9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home>  <199909060517.XAA02790@harmony.village.org> 
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 23:41:29 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home> Andrew Reilly writes:
: So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
: to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
: the Annex ethernet terminal server things?  I guess in the Windows world
: they must provide 16550-virtualisation software, or else everyone's copy of
: Telix or TeraTerm won't work.  Or the parallel ports vs parallel-port
: scanners.  Or maybe these docking stations just won't work at all...

No.  The Windows world presents a standard SERIAL DRIVER interface, at
least that's the theory that is preached.  I see no reason why a USB
serial port wouldn't do the same.  USB defines a serial port
interface, IIRC, which is the same across manufacturers (in theory)
which would be handled by a single USB driver in our USB stack.

Likewise with parallel ports.  Although turning a USB parallel port
into a bit twiddling interface may present some interesting
challanges.

Warner



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 22:48:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:47:32 +0400 (MSD)
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From: Alex Povolotsky <tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru>
To: stable@freebsd.org
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Problems with FIFO open in non-blocking mode?
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Hello!

The following program

#include <stdio.h>
#include <fcntl.h>

main() {
	int control;
	if ((control = open("STATUS",O_WRONLY|O_NONBLOCK))<0) {
		perror("Could not open STATUS ");
		exit(1);
	}
	printf("STATUS ready\n");
	close(control);
	return(0);
}

fails to run (STATUS is pre-created FIFO file) with error "Device not
configured", which seems kinda odd for me.

However, when FIFO is opened with O_RDWR and O_NONBLOCK, every attempt 
to select(2) its handler for writing doesn't wait until someone opens
FIFO for reading, but instead FIFO is ready to write at every select.

Is it a bug or a feature?

-- 
Alexander B. Povolotsky                            [ICQ 18277558]
[2:5020/145]  [http://freebsd.svib.ru] [tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru]


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 23: 8:44 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.netplex.com.au [202.12.86.7])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 56A301543F; Sun,  5 Sep 1999 23:08:23 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au)
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	(envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au)
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey),
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 05 Sep 1999 20:57:51 CST."
             <199909060257.UAA01671@harmony.village.org> 
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 14:05:06 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Message-Id: <19990906060506.39C691CAB@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com> Kevin Day writes:
> : No, I'm working on adding support for PCI based non-winmodems. Modems that
> : still have a 16550 based uart interface to them, but just happen to sit on
> : the PCI bus. I'm not at all planning on writing support for winmodems, just
> : making sio.c understand UARTs on the PCI bus.
> : 
> : There *are* PCI modems out there that aren't winmodems, they're just hard t
    o
> : find. 3Com makes one, as well as a few other companies.
> 
> SIO doesn't support anything but isa attachments right now.  Its probe
> and attach routines need to be corrected to not be ISA specific.

Warner: I've had a look at your pccard_nbk patches, and they seem to work
for me reasonably well considering what it's trying to do. :-)

Please, can we have it committed?  Leave the #if 0 in sio so people don't
get blown away.  At the moment various people would like to help fix sio
etc, but while you've got (possibly) undisclosed patches in your tree we
could be duplicating your work.

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 23: 9: 1 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909060606.AAA03196@harmony.village.org>
To: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 14:05:06 +0800."
		<19990906060506.39C691CAB@overcee.netplex.com.au> 
References: <19990906060506.39C691CAB@overcee.netplex.com.au>  
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 00:06:26 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <19990906060506.39C691CAB@overcee.netplex.com.au> Peter Wemm writes:
: Warner: I've had a look at your pccard_nbk patches, and they seem to work
: for me reasonably well considering what it's trying to do. :-)

:-)

: Please, can we have it committed?

OK.  I can do that.  Makes it easier on me.

: Leave the #if 0 in sio so people don't
: get blown away.  At the moment various people would like to help fix sio
: etc, but while you've got (possibly) undisclosed patches in your tree we
: could be duplicating your work.

Sure.  I'll commit the sio changes separately.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 23:19:10 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from Doug@gorean.org)
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	(envelope-from Doug@gorean.org)
Message-ID: <37D35C98.693060A7@gorean.org>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 23:18:00 -0700
From: Doug <Doug@gorean.org>
Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: sysinstall nit
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	Present in -Stable and -Current. If you go to Configure | Distributions |
src and attempt to choose All, the src distribution never gets selected and
nothing gets installed. I can send a PR if needed, but it's such a small
thing I didn't think it would be worth it. 

Doug


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun Sep  5 23:34:22 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from Doug@gorean.org)
Message-ID: <37D3603A.A6162EE5@gorean.org>
Date: Sun, 05 Sep 1999 23:33:30 -0700
From: Doug <Doug@gorean.org>
Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT-0904 i386)
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: /etc sh script cleanup ready for testing
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	The long-awaited moment (well, by me anyway) has arrived. Except for the
files in /etc/periodic I have finished the cleanup of the /bin/sh scripts
in /etc. I've followed the style guidelines requested by the majority of
-hackers, so I hope that I've made everyone as happy as possible here. You
can find the files at http://gorean.org/rcfiles/

	I've tested as much of this stuff as I can here, but I don't have some
possible options; like an alpha, pc cards, isdn, ppp, etc. I have been
extremely careful in my changes however, so I'm confident that you can
employ these patches without fear of system mangling. In addition to the
previous comments, here are the notes I made while working on this:

1. A few files had no $FreeBSD tag, so I added them.
2. Lots of (spurious?) double spaces in rc.serial.
3. In rc.alpha and rc.i386 some of the one-line comments can probably
be deleted.
4. There are a number of gratuitous punctation diffs between
etc.i386/MAKEFILE and etc.alpha/MAKEFILE.
5. rc.network.S* is Sheldon's work, my thanks to him for
doing the first pass on that file. (Of course, final responsibility for any
errors is mine alone.)
6. In rc and rc.network I provided the defaults for *_program variables
to avoid a possible case of user foot shooting. 

	In the case of files with heavy white space changes you might find it
easier to isolate the significant changes by saving the file and doing a
diff -[uc]Bb between it and the current version. 

	At some point in the future I plan to start on the periodic scripts, if no
one gets there first. However, I'd like to submit these now for
testing/committing partly so that they don't get stale, and partly because
if I don't take a break and start working on something else my brain is
going to explode. :) All of the patches are up to date as of tonight's
-Current. 

	Any questions, comments, suggestions, or what have you are welcome of
course; although I'm really hoping that too many changes are not called for
since that was the purpose of asking for review ahead of time. I'll have
some freebsd-hacking time tomorrow if there are any more nits to be picked. 

Doug


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  0: 9: 2 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:07:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8
Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>,
	Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???) 
In-Reply-To: <199909060533.WAA16218@dingo.cdrom.com>
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 > > > USB doesn't present a 16550A interface to the host, so I don't think
 > > > that sio would have a USB attachment.
 > > 
 > > So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
 > > to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
 > > the Annex ethernet terminal server things? 
 > 
 > Presuming we are able to get any documentation out of any of these 
 > vendors; so far USB serial ports have been one of the worst things to 
 > enquire about.

1) Why do you want a sio like interface to something that contains
brains, i.e. a 8051 microcontroller?

2) There is someone writing firmware for the most commonly found serial,
adapter from Entrega, and he is at the point where he is using the
serial port for debugging output for the firmware in the
microcontroller.


Nick

-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  0:11:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:11:06 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8
Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???) 
In-Reply-To: <199909060541.XAA03034@harmony.village.org>
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 > No.  The Windows world presents a standard SERIAL DRIVER interface, at
 > least that's the theory that is preached.  I see no reason why a USB
 > serial port wouldn't do the same.  USB defines a serial port
 > interface, IIRC, which is the same across manufacturers (in theory)
 > which would be handled by a single USB driver in our USB stack.

Keep dreaming ...

Example: Mice and keyboards have a well defined standard interface: HID
(Human Interface Devices), but we have found already three ways of doing
things, requiring a rewrite of the probe and attach functionality.

Reason: It's much cheaper to present one device with a special interface
and write the driver (for Windows) for it, than to present two functions
and having to integrate a hub on the device.

You don't want to know what a ethernet/parallel/serial/hub thingie looks
like. I don't have one,  so anyone that has one, could you send me the
output of the usb_dump utility avaible from

	http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/usb/usb.pl


 > Likewise with parallel ports.  Although turning a USB parallel port
 > into a bit twiddling interface may present some interesting
 > challanges.

There is at least a spec for the parallel port devices.
-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  0:17:54 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:16:21 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8
Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
	Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <19990906151211.A21968@gurney.reilly.home>
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 > And USB?  This reference says that you can (now? soon?) buy a
 > laptop docking station with all of the usual ports, connected
 > only by USB...
 > 
 > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?99093.piusb.htm

That thing looks very simple probably on the USB bus:


root hub
	device hub (internal)
		externally available 4 ports hub
		externally available 7 ports hub
		modem
		serial port
		parallel port
		etc.

 > Hmm.  What sort of level of nesting do we support for this sort
 > of thing?  It's probably possible to buy USB interface cards
 > that plug into ISA, PCI, SCSI?  And vice-versa?

PCI and CardBus to USB. Any one having seen a ISA or PCMCIA variant,
please let me know.

USB->SCSI: E-Shuttle from Microtech / Shuttle or in the Iomega Zip drive

Nick

-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  0:37:20 1999
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To: Alex Povolotsky <tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru>
Cc: stable@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Problems with FIFO open in non-blocking mode?
References: <199909060547.JAA29146@shuttle.svib.ru>
From: Andrew Gierth <andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: Alex Povolotsky's message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:47:32 +0400 (MSD)"
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>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Povolotsky <tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru> writes:

 Alex> 	if ((control = open("STATUS",O_WRONLY|O_NONBLOCK))<0) {

 Alex> fails to run (STATUS is pre-created FIFO file) with error
 Alex> "Device not configured", which seems kinda odd for me.

 Alex> However, when FIFO is opened with O_RDWR and O_NONBLOCK, every
 Alex> attempt to select(2) its handler for writing doesn't wait until
 Alex> someone opens FIFO for reading, but instead FIFO is ready to
 Alex> write at every select.

 Alex> Is it a bug or a feature?

Both are features.

The behaviour of open() in the first case is required by standards. In
the second case, the fact that the FIFO has been opened O_RDWR means
that it _is_ ready for writing, and select() is correctly returning
the fact.

-- 
Andrew.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  0:52:27 1999
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909060749.CAA26844@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
To: nick.hibma@jrc.it
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 02:49:29 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh),
	A.Reilly@lake.com.au (Andrew Reilly), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.9909060907450.5512-100000@elect8> from "Nick Hibma" at Sep 06, 1999 09:11:06 AM
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> You don't want to know what a ethernet/parallel/serial/hub thingie looks
> like. I don't have one,  so anyone that has one, could you send me the
> output of the usb_dump utility avaible from
> 
> 	http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/usb/usb.pl
> 
> 

I had a problem when I tried plugging in my two usb
ethernet/serial/parallel/hub thingies.

found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7112, revid=0x01
        class=0c-03-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
        subordinatebus=0        secondarybus=0
        intpin=d, irq=10
        map[0]: type 4, range 32, base 0000ef80, size  5
uhci0: <Intel 82371AB/EB USB Host Controller> rev 0x01 int d irq 10 on
pci0.7.2
usb0: USB version 1.0, interrupting at 10
uhci0: PIRQD enable not set
usbd_match
usb0: <Intel 82371AB/EB USB Host Controller>
usbd_attach
usbd_new_device bus=0xc09eb000 depth=0 lowspeed=0
usbd_new_device: adding unit addr=1, rev=100, class=9, subclass=0,
protocol=0, maxpacket=64, ls=0
usbd_new_device: new dev (addr 1), dev=0xc0763180, parent=0xc09e6140
uhub0 at usb0
uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
usbd_set_config_index: (addr 1) attr=0x40, selfpowered=1, power=0,
powerquirk=0
usbd_set_config_index: set config 1
usbd_set_config_index: setting new config 1
uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
usbd_init_port: adding hub port=1 status=0x0101 change=0x0001
usbd_init_port: adding hub port=2 status=0x0100 change=0x0000
uhub_explore: status change hub=1 port=1
usbd_new_device bus=0xc09eb000 depth=1 lowspeed=0
uhci_waitintr: timeout
uhci_waitintr: timeout
uhci_waitintr: timeout
uhci_waitintr: timeout
uhci_waitintr: timeout
usbd_new_device: addr=2, getting first desc failed
usbd_remove_device: 0xc09fae80
uhub_explore: usb_new_device failed, TIMEOUT
uhub0: device problem, disabling port 1


This is under 3.2-STABLE as of a few days ago. Any ideas here?




Here's the output of a windows tool I have of some of my more interesting
devices, if you're interested...


Here's the Entrega USB/Ethernet hub.

External Hub: 000000000000000d#{f18a0e88-c30c-11d0-8815-00a0c906bed8}
Hub Power:               Self Power
Number of Ports:         4
Power switching:         Individual
Compound device:         No
Over-current Protection: Individual

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x09
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
idVendor:           0x0451 (Texas Instruments)
idProduct:          0x1446
bcdDevice:          0x0100
iManufacturer:        0x00
iProduct:             0x00
iSerialNumber:        0x00
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     Full
Device Address:       0x02
Open Pipes:              1

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0001 (1)
bInterval:            0xFF


This is the ethernet device, which appears as port 4 of this hub. (1-3 are
USB ports, port 4 is an ethernet port)

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x00
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
idVendor:           0x1645
idProduct:          0x0005
bcdDevice:          0x0202
iManufacturer:        0x02
iProduct:             0x03
iSerialNumber:        0x01
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     Full
Device Address:       0x06
Open Pipes:              3

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x02
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x83
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
bInterval:            0x01



Here's the hub on the Entrega USB/Serial/Parallel device:

External Hub: 0000000000000018#{f18a0e88-c30c-11d0-8815-00a0c906bed8}
Hub Power:               Self Power
Number of Ports:         4
Power switching:         Individual
Compound device:         No
Over-current Protection: Individual

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x09
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
idVendor:           0x0451 (Texas Instruments)
idProduct:          0x1446
bcdDevice:          0x0100
iManufacturer:        0x00
iProduct:             0x00
iSerialNumber:        0x00
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     Full
Device Address:       0x05
Open Pipes:              1

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0001 (1)
bInterval:            0xFF

Configuration Descriptor:
wTotalLength:       0x0019
bNumInterfaces:       0x01
bConfigurationValue:  0x01
iConfiguration:       0x00
bmAttributes:         0xE0 (Bus Powered Self Powered Remote Wakeup)
MaxPower:             0x32 (100 Ma)

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x01
bInterfaceClass:      0x09
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x00
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x00
iInterface:           0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0001 (1)
bInterval:            0xFF


Here's the serial port on that device:

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x00
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x40 (64)
idVendor:           0x1645
idProduct:          0x0001
bcdDevice:          0x0102
iManufacturer:        0x01
0x0409: "ENTREGA TECHNOLOGIES, INC."
iProduct:             0x02
0x0409: "Entrega USB Serial Converter"
iSerialNumber:        0x03
0x0409: "679274"
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     Full
Device Address:       0x07
Open Pipes:              3

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x10

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0010 (16)
bInterval:            0x10

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
bInterval:            0x08

Configuration Descriptor:
wTotalLength:       0x0027
bNumInterfaces:       0x01
bConfigurationValue:  0x01
iConfiguration:       0x00
bmAttributes:         0x60 (Self Powered Remote Wakeup)
MaxPower:             0x32 (100 Ma)

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x03
bInterfaceClass:      0x00
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x00
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x00
iInterface:           0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x10

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0010 (16)
bInterval:            0x10

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
bInterval:            0x08


And the parallel port:

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x00
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
idVendor:           0x1645
idProduct:          0x0006
bcdDevice:          0x0100
iManufacturer:        0x00
iProduct:             0x00
iSerialNumber:        0x00
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:     Full
Device Address:       0x08
Open Pipes:              3

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x83
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0004 (4)
bInterval:            0x01

Configuration Descriptor:
wTotalLength:       0x004E
bNumInterfaces:       0x01
bConfigurationValue:  0x01
iConfiguration:       0x00
bmAttributes:         0x80 (Bus Powered )
MaxPower:             0x31 (98 Ma)

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x01
bInterfaceClass:      0x07
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01
iInterface:           0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x01
bNumEndpoints:        0x02
bInterfaceClass:      0x07
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x02
iInterface:           0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x02
bNumEndpoints:        0x03
bInterfaceClass:      0xFF
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x00
bInterfaceProtocol:   0xFF
iInterface:           0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x01
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:        Bulk
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
bInterval:            0x00

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x83
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0004 (4)
bInterval:            0x01



Here's also something somewhat interesting... a USB keyboard with a PS/2
mouseport on the keyboard itself. (sorta like the mac)

Device Descriptor:
bcdUSB:             0x0100
bDeviceClass:         0x00
bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
idVendor:           0x1293
idProduct:          0x2101
bcdDevice:          0x0100
iManufacturer:        0x01
0x0409: "SOLID YEAR"
iProduct:             0x02
0x0409: "KEYBOARD & MOUSE"
iSerialNumber:        0x00
bNumConfigurations:   0x01

ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
Current Config Value: 0x01
Device Bus Speed:      Low
Device Address:       0x04
Open Pipes:              2

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
bInterval:            0x0A

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0003 (3)
bInterval:            0x0A

Configuration Descriptor:
wTotalLength:       0x003B
bNumInterfaces:       0x02
bConfigurationValue:  0x01
iConfiguration:       0x00
bmAttributes:         0xA0 (Bus Powered Remote Wakeup)
MaxPower:             0x32 (100 Ma)

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x00
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x01
bInterfaceClass:      0x03
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01
iInterface:           0x04
0x0409: "USB KBD"

HID Descriptor:
bcdHID:             0x0100
bCountryCode:         0x21
bNumDescriptors:      0x01
bDescriptorType:      0x22
wDescriptorLength:  0x0040

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x81
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
bInterval:            0x0A

Interface Descriptor:
bInterfaceNumber:     0x01
bAlternateSetting:    0x00
bNumEndpoints:        0x01
bInterfaceClass:      0x03
bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
bInterfaceProtocol:   0x02
iInterface:           0x05
0x0409: "PS2MOUSE"

HID Descriptor:
bcdHID:             0x0100
bCountryCode:         0x21
bNumDescriptors:      0x01
bDescriptorType:      0x22
wDescriptorLength:  0x0032

Endpoint Descriptor:
bEndpointAddress:     0x82
Transfer Type:   Interrupt
wMaxPacketSize:     0x0003 (3)
bInterval:            0x0A


I have no idea if this means anything to you, but in lieu of your usb dump,
it's at least something. :) If I can figure out how to make USB work on this
system with FreeBSD, i'll use usb_dump and send this to you again.

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1: 3: 6 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:03:48 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@freebsd.org,
	hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052055080.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:
> > I'm actually going to look at doing this tommorow, but I have to admit
> > the sio driver isn't really going to like doing this. Has anyone
> > looked at this before and could possibly give any suggestions as to
> > how I should begin this?
> 
> It looks really ugly.
> 
> The real problem is the 'isa_get_foo()' calls that are used.  I've got a
> small start of splitting out the ISA bits from the probe/attach routines
> but I'm really not sure what the best way to solve these issues is.
> (They're the same issues I'm dealing with on the if_ed driver...)

I have a plan for this. The isa_get_flags() stuff is going to change to
device_get_flags() and the rest can use the ISA_GET/SET_RESOURCE methods
which could be implemented by pccard as well.

For PCI, we need to change the probe slightly to pass the RID for the port
resource (always zero for isa but normally nonzero for pci). In this case,
the GET/SET_RESOURCE methods probably won't be needed since they are just
used for the multiport kluge.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 442 9037




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1: 4: 1 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:04:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@freebsd.org,
	hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <199909060257.UAA01671@harmony.village.org>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:

> In message <199909051942.OAA42708@celery.dragondata.com> Kevin Day writes:
> : No, I'm working on adding support for PCI based non-winmodems. Modems that
> : still have a 16550 based uart interface to them, but just happen to sit on
> : the PCI bus. I'm not at all planning on writing support for winmodems, just
> : making sio.c understand UARTs on the PCI bus.
> : 
> : There *are* PCI modems out there that aren't winmodems, they're just hard to
> : find. 3Com makes one, as well as a few other companies.
> 
> SIO doesn't support anything but isa attachments right now.  Its probe
> and attach routines need to be corrected to not be ISA specific.

I think I will tackle that soon.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 442 9037




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1: 7:15 1999
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
	Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
In-Reply-To: <199909060749.CAA26844@celery.dragondata.com>
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 > This is under 3.2-STABLE as of a few days ago. Any ideas here?

Yes, use CURRENT :-)

 > This is the ethernet device, which appears as port 4 of this hub. (1-3 are
 > USB ports, port 4 is an ethernet port)

That is the way it should be done. I have a PCI card here with a hub
included to make 4 out of 2 ports :-)

 > Device Descriptor:
 > bcdUSB:             0x0100
 > bDeviceClass:         0x00
 > bDeviceSubClass:      0x00
 > bDeviceProtocol:      0x00
 > bMaxPacketSize0:      0x08 (8)
 > idVendor:           0x1645
 > idProduct:          0x0005
 > bcdDevice:          0x0202
 > iManufacturer:        0x02
 > iProduct:             0x03
 > iSerialNumber:        0x01
 > bNumConfigurations:   0x01
 > 
 > ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
 > Current Config Value: 0x01
 > Device Bus Speed:     Full
 > Device Address:       0x06
 > Open Pipes:              3

Pitty it does not list the interface descriptor. It might have given
some more information on the class/subclass/protocol in use.

 > Endpoint Descriptor:
 > bEndpointAddress:     0x81
 > Transfer Type:        Bulk
 > wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
 > bInterval:            0x00
 > 
 > Endpoint Descriptor:
 > bEndpointAddress:     0x02
 > Transfer Type:        Bulk
 > wMaxPacketSize:     0x0040 (64)
 > bInterval:            0x00
 > 
 > Endpoint Descriptor:
 > bEndpointAddress:     0x83
 > Transfer Type:   Interrupt
 > wMaxPacketSize:     0x0008 (8)
 > bInterval:            0x01


(hub/serial/parallel)

 > idVendor:           0x1645
 > idProduct:          0x0001
 > bcdDevice:          0x0102

 > bInterfaceClass:      0x07
 > bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
 > bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01


Looks like they glued the hub, serial and parallel simply together.


 > Here's also something somewhat interesting... a USB keyboard with a PS/2
 > mouseport on the keyboard itself. (sorta like the mac)

Sorta very much unlike the mac. It's one device with 2 interfaces
(compared to 3 devices: a hub, a keyboard and a mouse :)

 > bInterfaceClass:      0x03
 > bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
 > bInterfaceProtocol:   0x01

HID keyboard

 > bInterfaceClass:      0x03
 > bInterfaceSubClass:   0x01
 > bInterfaceProtocol:   0x02

HID mouse

 > I have no idea if this means anything to you, but in lieu of your usb dump,
 > it's at least something. :) If I can figure out how to make USB work on this
 > system with FreeBSD, i'll use usb_dump and send this to you again.

The HID keyboard/mouse is supported under 3.2 supposedly. There are
people using it on a daily basis, with some limitations as in not
disconnecting the things.

thanks a lot!

Nick

-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1:13:26 1999
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909060813.DAA51212@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
To: nick.hibma@jrc.it
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 03:13:06 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day), imp@village.org (Warner Losh),
	A.Reilly@lake.com.au (Andrew Reilly), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.9909061000010.5512-100000@elect8> from "Nick Hibma" at Sep 06, 1999 10:06:24 AM
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> 
>  > This is under 3.2-STABLE as of a few days ago. Any ideas here?
> 
> Yes, use CURRENT :-)

Ok, I'll upgrade tommorow and try again.

>  > ConnectionStatus: DeviceConnected
>  > Current Config Value: 0x01
>  > Device Bus Speed:     Full
>  > Device Address:       0x06
>  > Open Pipes:              3
> 
> Pitty it does not list the interface descriptor. It might have given
> some more information on the class/subclass/protocol in use.

I'll see what usb_dump gives me under current as soon as I can.

>  > Here's also something somewhat interesting... a USB keyboard with a PS/2
>  > mouseport on the keyboard itself. (sorta like the mac)
> 
> Sorta very much unlike the mac. It's one device with 2 interfaces
> (compared to 3 devices: a hub, a keyboard and a mouse :)

I meant it physically looked like a mac keyboard. :) 

>  > I have no idea if this means anything to you, but in lieu of your usb dump,
>  > it's at least something. :) If I can figure out how to make USB work on this
>  > system with FreeBSD, i'll use usb_dump and send this to you again.
> 
> The HID keyboard/mouse is supported under 3.2 supposedly. There are
> people using it on a daily basis, with some limitations as in not
> disconnecting the things.
> 
> thanks a lot!
> 
> Nick
> 

I'll give that a try too. I do like having a USB keyboard, except for the
fact that if the system is *very* busy, I tend to get some weird
repetitions. I dunno if this'll happen under FreeBSD or not, but it's
annoying.

(example, I start up ScanDisk, and a CPU eating program at the same time,
and try to type... The quick ick ick brownnnnn fox jumpumped over erthe
lazzzzzzzzzy ddddog)

I'll blame this on a Windowsism until I see otherwise. :)

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1:17:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
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Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: imp@village.org, A.Reilly@lake.com.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
In-Reply-To: <199909060813.DAA51212@celery.dragondata.com>
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 > I'll give that a try too. I do like having a USB keyboard, except for the
 > fact that if the system is *very* busy, I tend to get some weird
 > repetitions. I dunno if this'll happen under FreeBSD or not, but it's
 > annoying.
 > 
 > (example, I start up ScanDisk, and a CPU eating program at the same time,
 > and try to type... The quick ick ick brownnnnn fox jumpumped over erthe
 > lazzzzzzzzzy ddddog)
 > 
 > I'll blame this on a Windowsism until I see otherwise. :)

This very much sounds like Windows not being fast enough in retiring the
TD's (you have a UHCI controller and a lot of work has to be done by the
CPU, when compared to OHCI). This is not a problem that USB can produce
in any way.

I guess it must be something like Windows not retiring the TD fast
enough, so at the next frame the same TD is handled again.

Nick
-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1:21:11 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: nick.hibma@jrc.it, imp@village.org (Warner Losh),
	A.Reilly@lake.com.au (Andrew Reilly), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 03:13:06 CDT."
             <199909060813.DAA51212@celery.dragondata.com> 
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> 
> I'll give that a try too. I do like having a USB keyboard, except for the
> fact that if the system is *very* busy, I tend to get some weird
> repetitions. I dunno if this'll happen under FreeBSD or not, but it's
> annoying.
> 
> (example, I start up ScanDisk, and a CPU eating program at the same time,
> and try to type... The quick ick ick brownnnnn fox jumpumped over erthe
> lazzzzzzzzzy ddddog)
> 
> I'll blame this on a Windowsism until I see otherwise. :)

I've seen this with FreeBSD as well; I put it down to a bug in the 
keyboard firmware, since the repeat occurs immediately (no delay after 
the keypress).  I think the first generation of USB keyboards are going 
to be about as reliable as the first generation of AT keyboards 
(bleagh!).

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  1:28:31 1999
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From: Alex Povolotsky <tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru>
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 12:27:54 +0400 (MSD)
To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: kern/13593: Problems with FIFO and select
In-Reply-To: <199909060746.RAA29518@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
References: <199909060746.RAA29518@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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>>>>> "Bruce" == Bruce Evans writes:

>>> Description:
>> Attempt to open FIFO file with O_WRONLY|O_NONBLOCK results in
>> Device not configured error.

Bruce> This is because there is no reader when the FIFO is opened for
Bruce> writing (O_WRONLY opens of FIFOs normally block waiting for a
Bruce> reader, but O_NONBLOCK gives an error instead).

Well, but how do I multiplex on FIFO opening? 

>> However, when FIFO is opened with O_RDWR and O_NONBLOCK, every
>> attempt to select(2) its handler for writing doesn't wait until
>> someone opens FIFO for reading, but instead FIFO is ready to write
>> at every select.

Bruce> This is because O_RDWR gives both a reader and a writer.

Well again, both things are reasonable, but I wanted to do the
following:

(1) open a control FIFO, for external commands
(2) open a status FIFO, for status reporting
(3) open several sockets for internal usage

and than select() on all of them, waiting for either command to
arrive, request for status, or (some internal event,
select()-multiplexable).

I can implement this using UNIX sockets and external programs, but can 
I make status reporting without external program?

-- 
Alexander B. Povolotsky                            [ICQ 18277558]
[2:5020/145]  [http://freebsd.svib.ru] [tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru]


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  2:15:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
Cc: bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 06 Sep 1999 11:13:48 +0200
In-Reply-To: KATO Takenori's message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 14:23:42 +0900"
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KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> writes:
>   The kernel runs with four different levels of security.
> ! Any super-user process can raise the security level, but no process
>   can lower it.

How about "The security level can only be raised by the super-user,
and cannot be lowered by anyone." instead?

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  2:18:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:17:37 +0200
From: Jan Pechanec <pechy@hp735.cvut.cz>
X-Sender: pechy@akat.civ.cvut.cz
To: Robert Kuan <sysx@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rkwan <rkwan@visa.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD install questions
In-Reply-To: <LOBBLBFBNBDIPAEPDGJJEEAICAAA.sysx@worldnet.att.net>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Robert Kuan wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I have a few questions on FreeBSD installation; I hope you would help me t=
o
>answer them.
>
>1.=09How to change the labels and modify the FreeBSD Booteasy. I.e.,
>
>From:      F1  ??
>           F2  DOS
>           F3  DOS
>           F4  FreeBSD
>           F5  Disk1
>
> to    F1 WinNT 4.0
>       F2  (delete, not in used =96 empty partition)
>       F3  Win98
>       F4  FreeBSD 3.2
>       F5 Solaris 2.7

=09You can't. I wrote my own boot manager a I studied BootEasy as
a existing and working example. Ordering of systems depends on
ordering of partitions (ie. slices). BE has its own table for OS
strings.=20

=09If you don't want to hack the manager's code, you can just
rewrite with some editor 1st sector (MBR) to eg. this:

=09F1 --
=09F2 Win
=09F3 Win
=09F4 FBSD3.2
=09F5 xxxxx

=09Ie. you have to follow string lengths. If you want to change
strings, use another manager. I can't recall its name, but there is
another one mentioned and shipped with FreeBSD, it enables custom
strings (OS-BS ?).

=09Jan.

>
>2.=09How to install the Solaris Boot Record so I can use Booteasy to boot
>from,
>Right now, when I push F5 from Booteasy, it gives error message: Boot Reco=
rd
>not found.
>
>3.=09How to set up my computer to make a dial in to my ISP. Please provide=
 me
>the steps or example to do the setup.
>    My ISP is worldnet.att.net using:
>    User ID/account no. is 740136022@worldnet.att.net
>    Password is abcdefghijk12
>    Phone for ISP is (415) 276-0107
>    Pop3 =96 in coming mail is postoffice.worldnet.att.net
>    Pop3 =96 out going mail is mailhost.wordnet.att.net
>    Mail account ID is SysX
>    Email password is  122345678mm
>    Email address is sysx@worldnet.att.net
>    My modem is in COM2
>
>I have tried several combonations of setup but it doesn=92t work, I would =
like
>to FTP the FreeBSD update from my computer.
>
>Thank you very much for your kind reply.
>
>Sincerely,
>Robert Kuan
>Sysx@worldnet.att.net
>rkwan@visa.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>

--=20
Jan PECHANEC (mailto:pechy@hp735.cvut.cz)
Computing Center CTU (Zikova 4, Praha 6, 166 35, Czech Republic)
http://www.civ.cvut.cz, tel: +420 2 2435 2969, http://pechy.civ.cvut.cz



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  3:12:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami),
	chris@calldei.com, kpielorz@tdx.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: CFD: "bogomips" CPU performance metric
References: <199909032204.AAA44150@yedi.iaf.nl>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 06 Sep 1999 12:12:13 +0200
In-Reply-To: Wilko Bulte's message of "Sat, 4 Sep 1999 00:04:18 +0200 (CEST)"
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Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl> writes:
> "The Wrath of Satoshi" (free interpretation of "The Wrath of Khan")
> 8-)

The question is, does "The Wrath of Satoshi" also have Kirstie Alley
in the role of Lt. Saavik? And if it doesn't, what else does it have
that makes it worth watching?

Too bad she's a scientologist.

DES (http://www.moviebbs.com/gallery/samples/s-025-ka.jpg)
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  5:10:39 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:07:24 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: dumps before init?
Message-ID: <19990906150724.I11485@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
Mail-Followup-To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 05:39:01PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> How does one  enable dumps before init?
> 
> Warner

According to the dumpon(8) manpage:

The dump device can also be specified at kernel compile time using the
``dumps on'' clause in the kernel configuration file (see config(8)).
This is useful when the kernel panics before multi-user mode is reached.
Subsequent successful invocations of dumpon will override the compiled in
value.


-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  5:37:51 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:36:38 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
To: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: dumps before init?
In-Reply-To: <19990906150724.I11485@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 05:39:01PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > How does one  enable dumps before init?
> > 
> > Warner
> 
> According to the dumpon(8) manpage:
> 
> The dump device can also be specified at kernel compile time using the
> ``dumps on'' clause in the kernel configuration file (see config(8)).
> This is useful when the kernel panics before multi-user mode is reached.
> Subsequent successful invocations of dumpon will override the compiled in
> value.

Hmmm... Wasn't this config line removed in -current? You can do it in
-stable, though.

Andrzej Bialecki

//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------
// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  7:39: 3 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:35:05 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: phk@FreeBSD.org
Cc: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>,
	Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: dumps before init?
Message-ID: <19990906173505.B18720@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
Mail-Followup-To: phk@FreeBSD.org, Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>,
	Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
References: <19990906150724.I11485@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909061435340.2975-100000@freja.webgiro.com>
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On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 02:36:38PM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 05:39:01PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > How does one  enable dumps before init?
> > > 
> > > Warner
> > 
> > According to the dumpon(8) manpage:
> > 
> > The dump device can also be specified at kernel compile time using the
> > ``dumps on'' clause in the kernel configuration file (see config(8)).
> > This is useful when the kernel panics before multi-user mode is reached.
> > Subsequent successful invocations of dumpon will override the compiled in
> > value.
> 
> Hmmm... Wasn't this config line removed in -current? You can do it in
> -stable, though.
> 
Umm, yes.  So, what's the way to do it in -current?  Poul?

-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  7:39:43 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:43:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Fumerola <billf@jade.chc-chimes.com>
To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@freebsd.org,
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Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Doug Rabson wrote:

> > SIO doesn't support anything but isa attachments right now.  Its probe
> > and attach routines need to be corrected to not be ISA specific.
> 
> I think I will tackle that soon.

You'd be my (and a lot of other people's) hero.

-- 
- bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp -
- ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org  -






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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  8:12:34 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 10:57:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
To: Alex Povolotsky <tarkhil@asteroid.svib.ru>
Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Problems with FIFO open in non-blocking mode?
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Alex Povolotsky wrote:

> Hello!
> 
> The following program
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <fcntl.h>
> 
> main() {
> 	int control;
> 	if ((control = open("STATUS",O_WRONLY|O_NONBLOCK))<0) {
> 		perror("Could not open STATUS ");
> 		exit(1);
> 	}
> 	printf("STATUS ready\n");
> 	close(control);
> 	return(0);
> }
> 
> fails to run (STATUS is pre-created FIFO file) with error "Device not
> configured", which seems kinda odd for me.
> 
> However, when FIFO is opened with O_RDWR and O_NONBLOCK, every attempt 
> to select(2) its handler for writing doesn't wait until someone opens
> FIFO for reading, but instead FIFO is ready to write at every select.
> 
> Is it a bug or a feature?
> 

I answered a similar question some time ago.  You can search the mailing
list archive for this.  Basically, you need to read the "Advanced Unix
Programming Environment" by Stevens.  I can not remember every details
right now.  The "device not configured" error is expected. 

-Zhihui



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  8:40:27 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Cc: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no>
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:
:KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> writes:
:>   The kernel runs with four different levels of security.
:> ! Any super-user process can raise the security level, but no process
:>   can lower it.
:
:How about "The security level can only be raised by the super-user,
:and cannot be lowered by anyone." instead?
:
:DES
:-- 
:Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no

    Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
    enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
    have access to the console, of course.  We used this trick at BEST
    a couple of times.  Still, I think this might qualify as a bug in
    the securelevel implementation.

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6  9:24:53 1999
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909061626.CAA15997@cheops.anu.edu.au>
Subject: 2.2.8 - can't mount root
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Is there a way to get FreeBSD 2.2.8 to ask you for the root device
rather than have it attempt to mount and fail ?

Darren


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 10:51:34 1999
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2.8 - can't mount root
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Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> Is there a way to get FreeBSD 2.2.8 to ask you for the root device
> rather than have it attempt to mount and fail ?

	The 3.x branch is a lot smarter about this, but I agree that it would be
nice in those situations where it still can't find it to stop and ask
rather than just panic().

Doug


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 12:11: 2 1999
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Reply-To: Robert Watson <robert+freebsd@cyrus.watson.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
	Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Proposal: Add generic username for 3rd-party MTA's 
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Both postmaster and mailer-daemon seem to have some amount of historical
precedent.

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:

> In message <199909012256.PAA01514@dingo.cdrom.com> Mike Smith writes:
> : If we do this, I hope a more obvious name is chosen; something like 
> : "mailman" might be a start.  Or "mailperson", or "postperson", or 
> : whatever.  "mta" just feels a little obscure.
> 
> postmanpete
> 
> which is both obscure and descriptive.  Sadly it may be sexist as
> well...
> 
> Warner
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 


  Robert N M Watson 

robert@fledge.watson.org              http://www.watson.org/~robert/
PGP key fingerprint: AF B5 5F FF A6 4A 79 37  ED 5F 55 E9 58 04 6A B1
TIS Labs at Network Associates, Safeport Network Services



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 12:14: 5 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:12:32 -0500
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
Message-ID: <19990906141231.L18814@futuresouth.com>
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com>
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On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 08:39:54AM -0700, a little birdie told me
that Matthew Dillon remarked
> 
>     Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
>     enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
>     have access to the console, of course.  We used this trick at BEST
>     a couple of times.  Still, I think this might qualify as a bug in
>     the securelevel implementation.

I don't know about 'bug in securelevel implementation'...
For DDB to be DDB, you have to be able to tweak the running kernel any
which way outside of its control.  For securelevel to be securelevel, you
have to prevent changes to X, Y, and Z, no matter how they're changed.

I think it's more of a 'DDB is antithecal to securelevel'.  Calling it a
bug in securelevel is like calling lack of cargo space a bug in a Geo
Metro.




-- 
Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)     |    fullermd@over-yonder.net
Unix Systems Administrator      |    fullermd@futuresouth.com
Specializing in FreeBSD         |    http://www.over-yonder.net/
FutureSouth Communications      |    ISPHelp ISP Consulting

"The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
      haven't figured out how to light the middle yet"


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 12:49:43 1999
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:49:17 -0700
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On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:23:00 -0600 
 Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com> wrote:

 > >  > See, for instance, the al, ax, mx, pn, vr, and wb drivers.  ;^)
 > >                                           ^^
 > >                  Especially this one.. it's not a Tulip clone :-)
 > 
 > Oh?  vr(4) disagrees:
 > 
 >      The VIA Rhine chips use bus master DMA and have a software interface de-
 >      signed to resemble that of the DEC 21x4x "tulip" chips.

I don't care what the manual page says; take a look at the respective
programming manuals for the chips.  Hell, take a look at if_vrreg.h and
if_pnreg.h.  The vast differences are *very* obvious.

Really, the only thing that's even vaguely similar is that both of them
use chained descriptors which are 16 bytes long, with similar layout (but
not compatible bits within each longword).

The registers are totally different.

...tho, I guess he did say "resemble" ... The SiS 900 "resembles" a Tulip,
too (uses chained descriptors!), and the Tulip "resembles" the DEC SGEC
(a lot more than the Rhine "resembles" the Tulip, tho :-)

The various Tulip clones are actually somewhat close to Tulips (e.g. same
registers, for the most part, same bits in the registers), and can be driven
by the same driver, with various special cases in them for the (usually slight)
differences [this is the approach I'm taking in NetBSD; why Bill didn't write
a single driver for all the clones I'm not sure I'll ever know...]

 > I found the above list by grepping for "-i tulip" in /usr/src/sys/pci.  It 
 > is still a mystery to me why others don't do that before embarrassing them-
 > selves on a public mailing list...

Hahaha..  Whatever :-)

        -- Jason R. Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 13:29:58 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909062029.NAA76229@apollo.backplane.com>
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com> <19990906141231.L18814@futuresouth.com>
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:On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 08:39:54AM -0700, a little birdie told me
:that Matthew Dillon remarked
:> 
:>     Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
:>     enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
:>     have access to the console, of course.  We used this trick at BEST
:>     a couple of times.  Still, I think this might qualify as a bug in
:>     the securelevel implementation.
:
:I don't know about 'bug in securelevel implementation'...
:For DDB to be DDB, you have to be able to tweak the running kernel any
:which way outside of its control.  For securelevel to be securelevel, you
:have to prevent changes to X, Y, and Z, no matter how they're changed.
:
:I think it's more of a 'DDB is antithecal to securelevel'.  Calling it a
:bug in securelevel is like calling lack of cargo space a bug in a Geo
:Metro.
:
:Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)     |    fullermd@over-yonder.net

    Well, if you are using DDB for kernel debugging via remote gdb,
    that is so.

    In the production installation at BEST we leave DDB turned on
    in order to be able to track panics and control dumps.  We do
    not use it for remote gdb debugging.

    I think the vast majority of production installations which use
    DDB only need the trace, show, and panic capability.  They 
    probably do not need to issue writes into kernel memory.  In
    these installations DDB is necessary to deal with system panics,
    so turning it off is not really an option.

    So making DDB 'secure-level friendly' would be a useful thing
    tgo do, I think.  The idea is not to disable DDB, but to simply 
    limit the actions that can be performed within it if the securelevel
    has been raised.  The sysadmin would only be allowed to issue
    passive commands, cont, and 'panic'.  The sysadmin would not be
    allowed to modify the running system.

    A hacker in a similar situation would not be able to do anything
    beyond crash the machine.  I would rather a machine crash then
    give a hacker the ability to defeat the security mechanism in
    order to gain access to the system and modify data.

						-Matt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 13:33:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:19:18 +0200
From: Shaun Jurrens <shaun.jurrens@stud.uni-regensburg.de>
To: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Proposal: Add generic username for 3rd-party MTA's
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At the risk of being flamed for my inexperience...

I caught the thread here more or less because it was a conspicuous mess on my
list (and thanks to the flamers with the name suggestions, even longer). I still
think that something good could be done here that of course would cause a little
work, but might serve to teach those somewhat newer to the system (as I am) more
about user.||:group naming schemes on the one hand and perhaps more about the
secure use of such schemes in combination with their uid/gid's.  A standard
configure script for ports that are possible know security hazards (as MTA's can
be) could suggest typical naming conventions (and a short reason for them) and
uid/gid's (although these are more arbitrary) for said ports.  If they were to
go so far as to create new user/groups or simply prompt their creation seems
like no minor security question, would however add to a certain automation
(scripts to add users aren't unheard of) to the process. An initial make would
prompt check if the port had been configured for user.group and if the uid/gid
existed and simply chown the necessary files after install.  This would help the
new user develop a naming scheme as well as a sense of why while at the same
time allowing advanced users to more quickly (I know chown is no big task) adapt
new ports to system-wide uid/gid conventions.

I simply see here a possible compromise that offers benefits to both sides.  If
I had a little more experience myself, I'd come with a concrete proposal and the
work done, but you'll have to be patient.  I will someday contribute, but for
now I can only boast of the stabiliy and enjoy the beauty of all of your work in
FreeBSD.
-- 

Yours truly,

Shaun D. Jurrens

(hopefully soon: shaun@shamz.net)
IRCnick: shamz #chillout #unix 


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 13:43:51 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99])
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:41:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <199909060301.VAA01724@harmony.village.org>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052055080.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net> "Matthew N. Dodd" writes:
> : The real problem is the 'isa_get_foo()' calls that are used.  I've got a
> : small start of splitting out the ISA bits from the probe/attach routines
> : but I'm really not sure what the best way to solve these issues is.
> : (They're the same issues I'm dealing with on the if_ed driver...)
> 
> 	have you looked at my pccard patches that also start this as
> well?  I still dump core in sio with my patches, but at least I've
> eliminated the bugus isa_set_flags that it was doing...

This is good to know about.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 13:50:14 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:12:19 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD install questions
Message-ID: <19990906211219.A86497@keltia.freenix.fr>
Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to Jan Pechanec:
> another one mentioned and shipped with FreeBSD, it enables custom
> strings (OS-BS ?).

OS-BS 2.0b8, found in the tools directory on FTP/CD. Don't be fooled by the
beta part, there never was any non-beta of 2.0. Works fine, including booting
from other disks.
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 13:58: 2 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 06:49:29 +1000
From: Greg Black <gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> 
    <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com> 
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Matthew Dillon writes:

>     Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
>     enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
>     have access to the console, of course.

It should also be noted that it makes no sense to enable DDB on
systems that need to use elevated securelevels.

-- 
Greg Black -- <gjb@acm.org>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 14: 0:53 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:00:18 +0200 (CEST)
From: Michael Reifenberger <root@nihil.plaut.de>
To: Doug <Doug@gorean.org>
Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: /etc sh script cleanup ready for testing
In-Reply-To: <37D3603A.A6162EE5@gorean.org>
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Hi,
On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Doug wrote:
...
> can find the files at http://gorean.org/rcfiles/
looks good so far.
I'm missing rc.serial in rcfiles.
While you are at it, could you please change rc.serial to be consistent with the
other rc* files?
rc.serial should only implement the functions and import all variable data from
rc.conf...
ala:
...
serial_1_devices="d a 0"
serial_1_type="modem"
serial_1_speed="57600"
serial_1_flags="NO"
serial_2_devices="d a 1 2 3"
serial_2_type="custom"
serial_2_speed="57600"
serial_2_flags="-hupcl"   #or *comcontrol_flags + *stty_flags
...

BTW: please make the rc* files be self contained (where it makes sense) so that
they can be called outside of rc. Each file should include rc.conf for itself 
so that one could reinit the serial lines by `sh /etc/rc.serial` or fire up
isdn after reconfiguration with `sh /etc/rc.isdn`...

Thanks.

Bye!
----
Michael Reifenberger
Plaut Software GmbH, R/3 Basis



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 14: 5:18 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <37D2CFEC.B9AC01A2@xonix.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:

> Hey!
> 
>  Thanx a lot first of all!
> 
> Anytime i CAN write something myself - i do. I  can go as low as networking code
> or pseudodevice driver. But i am at loss when it comes to hardware (and within
> my scope of work etc. i doubt i will ever learn this stuff). Thats why i pleaded for help.
> 
>  I volonteer to be your first alpha-tester. I have this modem
> blaster thing. It is PCI and it has a UART. I was going to sell it
> and shell out lots of money for USRobotics 56K ISA real modem. BTW
> they call it "legacy" modem - i think the general direction is such
> that PCI will be the only kind available very soon...

This is pretty much untrue, because not all applications (industrial
applications) for modems have a PC to talk to, so it's totally
impossible for conventional modems to go away.  I used to make my living
tending large banks of modems, and not all applications are 56K even,
because they are only justified if you have a very large modem pool.

I think you're panicking prematurely, Ugen.  You're also checking the
very bottom of the market, and you're exaggerating (in your comment
about shelling out lot's of cash for a conventional modem) the cost of
a regular modem.  Things just aren't that desperate.

It's possible the trend is in a direction I don't like, but I'll still
keep my external conventional modem.  It's 33.6, not 56, which means
that my friends can dial into my system, which they can't do if it's a
56K.  That's very nice sometimes.


---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 14:19:52 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909062117.QAA49795@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:17:51 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch),
	toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909061655020.40981-100000@picnic.mat.net> from "Chuck Robey" at Sep 06, 1999 05:01:35 PM
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> > Hey!
> > 
> >  Thanx a lot first of all!
> > 
> > Anytime i CAN write something myself - i do. I  can go as low as networking code
> > or pseudodevice driver. But i am at loss when it comes to hardware (and within
> > my scope of work etc. i doubt i will ever learn this stuff). Thats why i pleaded for help.
> > 
> >  I volonteer to be your first alpha-tester. I have this modem
> > blaster thing. It is PCI and it has a UART. I was going to sell it
> > and shell out lots of money for USRobotics 56K ISA real modem. BTW
> > they call it "legacy" modem - i think the general direction is such
> > that PCI will be the only kind available very soon...
> 
> This is pretty much untrue, because not all applications (industrial
> applications) for modems have a PC to talk to, so it's totally
> impossible for conventional modems to go away.  I used to make my living
> tending large banks of modems, and not all applications are 56K even,
> because they are only justified if you have a very large modem pool.
> 
> I think you're panicking prematurely, Ugen.  You're also checking the
> very bottom of the market, and you're exaggerating (in your comment
> about shelling out lot's of cash for a conventional modem) the cost of
> a regular modem.  Things just aren't that desperate.
> 
> It's possible the trend is in a direction I don't like, but I'll still
> keep my external conventional modem.  It's 33.6, not 56, which means
> that my friends can dial into my system, which they can't do if it's a
> 56K.  That's very nice sometimes.
> 

Well, he's partially true.

We're looking at mass buying several thousand PCI modems. The cost for a
non-winmodem model is about 3x the Winmodem style. (You can buy winmodems
very cheap, since everyone is making them now. You can't buy non-winmodem's
cheap because only a few are doing it, and they now charge a premium for
this).

Another issue is the upcoming death of ISA. Several of Intel's next chipsets
don't support ISA at all, making this a somewhat timely problem.

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 14:32:19 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199909062119.XAA03179@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: FBSD3.3RC + UMAX astra 1220S + NCR810 => panic
In-Reply-To: <199909060520.XAA34103@panzer.kdm.org> from "Kenneth D. Merry" at "Sep 5, 1999 11:20:25 pm"
To: ken@kdm.org (Kenneth D. Merry)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:19:07 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: rene@canyon.demon.nl, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands
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As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ...
> Wilko Bulte wrote...
> > As Kenneth D. Merry wrote ...
...
> > Even if we assume the scanner yelled for attention and/or the ncr
> > driver is at fault I don't really understand why the cam layer 
> > decides to panic the machine. Wouldn't it be sufficient to return
> > EIO, or maybe just whine on the console? 
> 
> Well, perhaps.  My guess is that the intent was to catch problems with
> incorrectly written device drivers.  It looks like it may have caught a
> problem in the NCR driver somewhere. I can't remember the rationale behind
> having a panic instead of a printf at the moment.
> 
> > IIRC I've seen systems report 'no sense' in their log files in situations
> > like this (non-FreeBSD systems that is). So I *guess* there are 
> > SCSI devices out there that exhibit this behaviour..
> 
> Apparantly so.  I sent Rene a patch to turn the panic into a printf.  The
> idea is that the error will get propagated back up, and we may be able to
> get a better idea of just what is failing.

Just had him on the phone. No luck. The driver does see 'something' out
there, but attaches it as a da device. Blurk. Sounds like completely
bogus plumbing to me. Or something just as drastic as that. On W95
with scsi board that came with the scanner things work OK, including
a sensible inquire string etc. 

So, looks like hardware to me. At least for now. The NCR810 is known
good, as is the scanner. Leaves the cable. I'm suspicious about the
HD50 to SubD25 cable (how wonderful these non-standard connectors..)

Time permitting more investigation to follow coming weekend.

Wilko
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 15: 4:13 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:00:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <199909062117.QAA49795@celery.dragondata.com>
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:

> > I think you're panicking prematurely, Ugen.  You're also checking the
> > very bottom of the market, and you're exaggerating (in your comment
> > about shelling out lot's of cash for a conventional modem) the cost of
> > a regular modem.  Things just aren't that desperate.
> > 
> > It's possible the trend is in a direction I don't like, but I'll still
> > keep my external conventional modem.  It's 33.6, not 56, which means
> > that my friends can dial into my system, which they can't do if it's a
> > 56K.  That's very nice sometimes.
> > 
> 
> Well, he's partially true.
> 
> We're looking at mass buying several thousand PCI modems. The cost for a
> non-winmodem model is about 3x the Winmodem style. (You can buy winmodems
> very cheap, since everyone is making them now. You can't buy non-winmodem's
> cheap because only a few are doing it, and they now charge a premium for
> this).
> 
> Another issue is the upcoming death of ISA. Several of Intel's next chipsets
> don't support ISA at all, making this a somewhat timely problem.

You're looking at this (quite naturally) from the point of view of a PC
user.  Not everyone is, you know, and the non-PC user market is large
enough to ensure regular modems don't go away.

> 
> Kevin
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 15:10:40 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909062209.RAA01876@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 17:09:52 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: toasty@dragondata.com (Kevin Day),
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909061759130.40981-100000@picnic.mat.net> from "Chuck Robey" at Sep 06, 1999 06:00:57 PM
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> > Well, he's partially true.
> > 
> > We're looking at mass buying several thousand PCI modems. The cost for a
> > non-winmodem model is about 3x the Winmodem style. (You can buy winmodems
> > very cheap, since everyone is making them now. You can't buy non-winmodem's
> > cheap because only a few are doing it, and they now charge a premium for
> > this).
> > 
> > Another issue is the upcoming death of ISA. Several of Intel's next chipsets
> > don't support ISA at all, making this a somewhat timely problem.
> 
> You're looking at this (quite naturally) from the point of view of a PC
> user.  Not everyone is, you know, and the non-PC user market is large
> enough to ensure regular modems don't go away.
> 

Actually, I'm not. :)

This is an embedded product using (mostly) custom hardware.

I don't forsee the loss of external modems any time soon, they just aren't
an option for our size requirements.

As for internal modems, nearly everyone we talked to was dumping their ISA
support, and Intel is really keen on getting rid of ISA.

I'm not saying that I think non-winmodem PCI modems are going to disappear,
but just having gone through this battle, I know it's getting difficult.

Kevin


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 15:23:29 1999
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From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@tumbolia.com>
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <199909062117.QAA49795@celery.dragondata.com>
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On Mon, 6 Sep 1999, Kevin Day wrote:
> > This is pretty much untrue, because not all applications (industrial
> > applications) for modems have a PC to talk to, so it's totally
> > impossible for conventional modems to go away.  I used to make my living
> > tending large banks of modems, and not all applications are 56K even,
> > because they are only justified if you have a very large modem pool.

There are lots of applications where speeds of greater than 1200 bps aren't 
justified.

> non-winmodem model is about 3x the Winmodem style. (You can buy winmodems
> very cheap, since everyone is making them now. You can't buy non-winmodem's

You can buy winmodems cheap because they are cheap crap.  they force the
host system to do everything useful.  Network quake players will keep the
real modem on a PCI card going for a while yet.

David Scheidt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 15:28:40 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 15:25:21 -0700
From: Doug <Doug@gorean.org>
Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority
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To: Michael Reifenberger <root@nihil.plaut.de>
Cc: FreeBSD-Hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: /etc sh script cleanup ready for testing
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Michael Reifenberger wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Doug wrote:
> ...
> > can find the files at http://gorean.org/rcfiles/
> looks good so far.
> I'm missing rc.serial in rcfiles.

	Thanks for the reminder. I didn't make any changes to that file because
there weren't any [/test lines in it, and there were enough oddities that I
felt like I'd be better off leaving it alone. Someone with more knowledge
about it and more ability to test the results could probably do some good
there. 

> BTW: please make the rc* files be self contained (where it makes sense) so that
> they can be called outside of rc. Each file should include rc.conf for itself
> so that one could reinit the serial lines by `sh /etc/rc.serial` or fire up
> isdn after reconfiguration with `sh /etc/rc.isdn`...

	I am not opposed to this change, however A) It's fairly huge, B) It's
extremely controversial, given that it makes us more like SysV, and C) I
don't care enough about it to fight the requisite battles. If I _were_
inclined to do something like this I'd start small, and start submitting
patches. Personally I kind of like some of the scripts sun has where you
can do 'nfs_script start' or 'nfs_script stop', etc. It makes things easier
on long-running systems. 

Thanks for your feeback,

Doug


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 15:32:36 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199909062149.XAA03624@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909052024230.98872-100000@janus.syracuse.net> from "Brian F. Feldman" at "Sep 5, 1999  8:26:36 pm"
To: green@FreeBSD.ORG (Brian F. Feldman)
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:49:55 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: aa8vb@ipass.net, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands
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As Brian F. Feldman wrote ...
> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:
> 
> > Mike Smith:
> >  |> Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE
> >  |
> >  |You could try to backport the two sets of commits I just made to the 
> >  |-stable branch, but you might be better off moving to -stable or to 
> >  |3.3-RELEASE.
> > 
> > Ok, I might try that.  From Brian's message, it sounds like he's made some
> > commits for MTRR.  Would I need those as well (or are your commits the work
> > he spoke of).
> 
> It may be worth specifying that k6_mem.c should be disabled in RELENG_3 pending
> further investigation of problems with the MTRR interfeace (i.e. that it can
> corrupt other memory...) For now, it's unsafe.

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but as a AMD user I'm interested anyway:
'should be disabled', does that mean one has to 'hand hack' to disable it?
Stable being -stable I'd have guessed it should be disabled by default
if it is not 100% working like it should.

TIA
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 16:15:56 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 19:15:00 -0400
From: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
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> > >  I volonteer to be your first alpha-tester. I have this modem
> > > blaster thing. It is PCI and it has a UART. I was going to sell it
> > > and shell out lots of money for USRobotics 56K ISA real modem. BTW
> > > they call it "legacy" modem - i think the general direction is such
> > > that PCI will be the only kind available very soon...
> > I think you're panicking prematurely, Ugen.  You're also checking the
> > very bottom of the market, and you're exaggerating (in your comment
> > about shelling out lot's of cash for a conventional modem) the cost of
> > a regular modem.  Things just aren't that desperate.
>

 I did not say they are.. They will be more urgent however when ISA is gone
(and that day seems to be soon).
 I also did not advocate support for winmodems. As a matter of fact all
i said is - we do not support REAL (UART based) PCI modems - those
sitting on PCI bus and doing their modem thing. And this is important.
 I am quite sure there are many applications of the system where this is
irrelevant. However if we are to continue being a viable choice for any
user requiring remote dial up capability when ISA is phased out,
we have at a very least to support PCI modems.

>
> > It's possible the trend is in a direction I don't like, but I'll still
> > keep my external conventional modem.  It's 33.6, not 56, which means
> > that my friends can dial into my system, which they can't do if it's a
> > 56K.  That's very nice sometimes.
>

Hmm..one cannot dial into 56K modem? This is news to me. I was able to dial
into mine..may be i am daydreaming though. The speed is obviously not 56K but it does
seem to work.. or am i missing something?

> Well, he's partially true.
>
> We're looking at mass buying several thousand PCI modems. The cost for a
> non-winmodem model is about 3x the Winmodem style. (You can buy winmodems
> very cheap, since everyone is making them now. You can't buy non-winmodem's
> cheap because only a few are doing it, and they now charge a premium for
> this).
>

 I just bought an ISA UART modem for 40$..it is a noname jumper discount brand.
It was the only kind available at a local computer marketpro sale. They had scores of winmodems
and some PCI based non-winmodems. Again, if FreeBSD will ever be installed on
any machines sold there to consumers - PCI has to be supported. Supporting winmodems
btw would be nice, although i doubt manufacturers will give us their code.

> Another issue is the upcoming death of ISA. Several of Intel's next chipsets
> don't support ISA at all, making this a somewhat timely problem.
>

Exactly...

BTW sorry if my message sounded panicky - but if the result is moving some
good developers towards adding a useful functionality , gee - may be i succeeded
accidentally?:))))

O yes..on this computer market thing they had a FreeBSD book , it's the only one that
wasn't discounted (44$ as opposed to 10$-15$ on most other comp. books) but seemed to be
read MANY times over... *They* like us?:)))
--Ugen



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 16:33:49 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909062326.JAA28303@cheops.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2.8 - can't mount root
To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:26:14 +1000 (EST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <37D3FF1C.662B7493@gorean.org> from "Doug" at Sep 6, 99 10:51:24 am
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In some mail from Doug, sie said:
> 
> Darren Reed wrote:
> > 
> > Is there a way to get FreeBSD 2.2.8 to ask you for the root device
> > rather than have it attempt to mount and fail ?
> 
> 	The 3.x branch is a lot smarter about this, but I agree that it would be
> nice in those situations where it still can't find it to stop and ask
> rather than just panic().

Does FreeBSD yet have a kernel boot "-a" option where it asks things like
where is the root partition, what filesystem type is it, etc ?

Darren


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 17:25:18 1999
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Is it time to install src/etc/rc.sysctl now ?  I certainly think it's 
a good idea :-]
-- 
Brian <brian@Awfulhak.org>                        <brian@FreeBSD.org>
      <http://www.Awfulhak.org>                   <brian@OpenBSD.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !          <brian@FreeBSD.org.uk>




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 17:42:36 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:36:13 -0400
From: Ben Williams <williamsl@home.com>
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To: FreeBSD hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>,
	FreeBSD questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject: new kernel build, bad MSF image
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   I  have  only  recently  begun to use FreeBSD but I consider myself
competent  with  Linux  and  I have had FreeBSD installed on my PC for
over a week now and I decided to build a kernel for my machine and get
rid  of all the unnecessary drivers and whatnot (like everything SCSI,
the Qcam stuff, PS/2 mouse stuff, etc) and I finally got the kernel to
build  after having to fight with it over the definition of the floppy
drive.
   Here's the problem: Whenever I attempt to boot my FreeBSD partition
(I'm  dual-booting FreeBSD & 98) it goes through all the normal bootup
messages  until it mounts the root partition ("changing root device to
wd0s1a")  and  it  immediately  complains  about  "panic: MFS image is
invalid!!"  and  forces  me  to  reboot. This happens if I use kernel,
kernel.old or kernel.GENERIC. What can I do to fix it?

TIA,
Ben Williams




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 18:26:51 1999
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To: dillon@apollo.backplane.com
Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp,
	bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
From: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 08:39:54 -0700 (PDT)"
	<199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com>
References: <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com>
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Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> wrote:

>     Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
>     enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
>     have access to the console, of course.  We used this trick at BEST
>     a couple of times.  Still, I think this might qualify as a bug in
>     the securelevel implementation.

I also think it should be in manual page.  But, I don't think it
should be called `bug.'

When an administrator maintains a machine with higher security, he/she 
must be careful with not only the securelevel also many other points,
and may remove options for kernel hackers.

-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>  |        FreeBSD           |
Dept. Earth Planet. Sci, Nagoya Univ.          |    The power to serve!   |
Nagoya, 464-8602, Japan                        |  http://www.FreeBSD.org/ |
++++ FreeBSD(98) 3.2:   Rev. 01 available!     |http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/|
++++ FreeBSD(98) 2.2.8: Rev. 02 available!     +==========================+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 19: 2:23 1999
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From: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 12:00:54 +1000
To: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
Message-ID: <19990907120054.A93315@gurney.reilly.home>
References: <199909062117.QAA49795@celery.dragondata.com> <37D44AF4.92D4120C@xonix.com>
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On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 07:15:00PM -0400, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:
> Supporting winmodems
> btw would be nice, although i doubt manufacturers will give us their code.

That might not be necessary, eventually.  I've heard, obliquely,
of a project to develop "open source" modem (data pump) software
that is obviously aimed at these things.  It's not rocket science
(well, not to DSP folks), and it is well and truly standardised.
It would be a good final-year EE project in the right school.
Also, since the theoretical limits of the POTS channel have pretty
much been reached with V.34-bis or V.90, it's not even a moving
target any more.  No wonder they're cheap now.

Does anyone know whether there's more to a "WinModem" than a
line hybrid, a codec and a PCI interface?

-- 
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 19:12:36 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-ID: <19990906191012.58603@hydrogen.fircrest.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:10:12 -0700
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
References: <199909060257.UAA01671@harmony.village.org> <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909060904070.2081-100000@salmon.nlsystems.com>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909060904070.2081-100000@salmon.nlsystems.com>; from Doug Rabson on Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 09:04:26AM +0100
Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Cu Networking
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Doug Rabson scribbled this message on Sep 6:
> > SIO doesn't support anything but isa attachments right now.  Its probe
> > and attach routines need to be corrected to not be ISA specific.
> 
> I think I will tackle that soon.

if you don't get to it soon, I may take a look at it... I have a bunch
of enhancments that I'd like to get into sio esspecially now since we
have the dev_t stuff...  should help eliminate some problems people have
w/ sio..

-- 
  John-Mark Gurney				Voice: +1 541 684 8449
  Cu Networking					  P.O. Box 5693, 97405

  "The soul contains in itself the event that shall presently befall it.
  The event is only the actualizing of its thought." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 19:16:22 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 22:15:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.

And MCA and EISA attachments.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 19:19:56 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 19:18:18 -0700
From: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@efn.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Andrew Reilly <A.Reilly@lake.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
References: <9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home> <199909060517.XAA02790@harmony.village.org> <199909060541.XAA03034@harmony.village.org>
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In-Reply-To: <199909060541.XAA03034@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 11:41:29PM -0600
Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Cu Networking
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Warner Losh scribbled this message on Sep 5:
> In message <9909061532290G.69570@gurney.reilly.home> Andrew Reilly writes:
> : So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
> : to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
> : the Annex ethernet terminal server things?  I guess in the Windows world
> : they must provide 16550-virtualisation software, or else everyone's copy of
> : Telix or TeraTerm won't work.  Or the parallel ports vs parallel-port
> : scanners.  Or maybe these docking stations just won't work at all...
> 
> No.  The Windows world presents a standard SERIAL DRIVER interface, at
> least that's the theory that is preached.  I see no reason why a USB
> serial port wouldn't do the same.  USB defines a serial port
> interface, IIRC, which is the same across manufacturers (in theory)
> which would be handled by a single USB driver in our USB stack.

so, Cyclades (cy) presents an interface similar to sio but ISN'T the sio
drive...  we just need to write a driver for the USB serial devices
that present the same interface as the sio to get a compatible device
driver...  sio isn't designed to handle a smart device over usb.. it's
designed to interface w/ the family of 8250 IC chips and nothing more...

-- 
  John-Mark Gurney				Voice: +1 541 684 8449
  Cu Networking					  P.O. Box 5693, 97405

  "The soul contains in itself the event that shall presently befall it.
  The event is only the actualizing of its thought." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 19:26:42 1999
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To: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <19990907120054.A93315@gurney.reilly.home>
References: <199909062117.QAA49795@celery.dragondata.com>
	<37D44AF4.92D4120C@xonix.com>
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Andrew Reilly writes:
 > Does anyone know whether there's more to a "WinModem" than a
 > line hybrid, a codec and a PCI interface?

"It Depends".  For many of them, yes, that's pretty much all there is.

However Motorola (at least) has a reference design for a "WinModem"
that uses their DSP56303 on the board, which has some nice advantages
outside of the fact that the host really doesn't have to do much when
the modem is operating.  I have yet to get my hands on one, however.

I've been casually buying WinModems that advertise a Motorola chipset
in the hopes of eventually getting one of these, just because I've
been doing a fair amount of work with the DSP56303 lately.  So far,
I've got two $10 coasters -- Motorola also sells "single chip softmodems"
that just have a codec (the PCI interface chip is listed in their product
selection guide, but attempts to get programming information on them
hasn't gone anywhere yet). 

This was a topic on slashdot a while back, and there's a website of
marginal value on the topic -- linmodems.org

-Ted


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 20:18:16 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:14:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <19990907120054.A93315@gurney.reilly.home>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Andrew Reilly wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 07:15:00PM -0400, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:
> > Supporting winmodems
> > btw would be nice, although i doubt manufacturers will give us their code.
> 
> That might not be necessary, eventually.  I've heard, obliquely,
> of a project to develop "open source" modem (data pump) software
> that is obviously aimed at these things.  It's not rocket science
> (well, not to DSP folks), and it is well and truly standardised.
> It would be a good final-year EE project in the right school.
> Also, since the theoretical limits of the POTS channel have pretty
> much been reached with V.34-bis or V.90, it's not even a moving
> target any more.  No wonder they're cheap now.
> 
> Does anyone know whether there's more to a "WinModem" than a
> line hybrid, a codec and a PCI interface?

A large part of the problem in doing a Winmodem is because some of them
only farm out the AT command set handling to your system, others farm
out various pieces of the DSP work, and some do virtually nothing at
all, just leave it to software.  There isn't any standard, so there's
not a whole lot to work with, and doing this hurts your system.

> 
> -- 
> Andrew
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 20:31:48 1999
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Message-Id: <199909070331.VAA09658@harmony.village.org>
To: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>
Subject: Re: src/etc/rc.sysctl installation 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 01:23:03 BST."
		<199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> 
References: <199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org>  
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 21:31:01 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> Brian Somers writes:
: Is it time to install src/etc/rc.sysctl now ?  I certainly think it's 
: a good idea :-]

No.  I don't think we want to install rc.sysctl for an installworld.
It would spam changes that others make to them.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 20:51: 2 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 23:53:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Rosengart <ben@skunk.org>
To: Adrian Filipi-Martin <adrian@ubergeeks.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: placement of vi in the filesystem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909052112410.709-100000@thneed.ubergeeks.com>
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On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote:

> 	On the other hand I built a static nvi and put it in /tmp with a
> copy of termcap and set the TERMCAP variable.  With only / mounted, nvi did
> just fine, and it only took 460592 and 188100 bytes for the static nvi and
> termcap respectivly.  620K isn't much to argue about these days unless you
> want it on a floppy.

So since the default root partition doesn't fit on a floppy anyway, you
think no one would argue if I suggested putting a static nvi in /bin?

That's about as close to suggesting it as I care to get ... obviously I
don't think that's the case.  ;-)

--
 Ben

UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
StarMedia Network, Inc.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 21:21:47 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909070420.VAA77483@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Greg Black <gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au>
Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> 
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:>     Though, as a side note, it should be noted that if you have DDB
:>     enabled then lowering the secure level is pretty easy to do.  If you
:>     have access to the console, of course.
:
:It should also be noted that it makes no sense to enable DDB on
:systems that need to use elevated securelevels.
:
:-- 
:Greg Black -- <gjb@acm.org>

   I disagree quite strongly.  DDB provides a mechanism to allow a
   sysadmin to obtain a greater amount of information from a panic
   situation then he could get otherwise.  Being able to obtain this
   information does not run counter to running with a raised securelevel.

   If the system winds up in a state where a kernel core cannot be
   generated, DDB is the only way to figure out what is going on.  
   securelevel is a mechanism which attempts to guarentee data security,
   at least to a degree.  These two items do not clash.

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 22: 6: 9 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: dillon@apollo.backplane.com
Cc: gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au, des@flood.ping.uio.no,
	kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
From: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT)"
	<199909070420.VAA77483@apollo.backplane.com>
References: <199909070420.VAA77483@apollo.backplane.com>
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Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> wrote:

>    I disagree quite strongly.  DDB provides a mechanism to allow a
>    sysadmin to obtain a greater amount of information from a panic
>    situation then he could get otherwise.  Being able to obtain this
>    information does not run counter to running with a raised securelevel.
> 
>    If the system winds up in a state where a kernel core cannot be
>    generated, DDB is the only way to figure out what is going on.  
>    securelevel is a mechanism which attempts to guarentee data security,
>    at least to a degree.  These two items do not clash.

If console works and crackers can use it, protecting securelevel from
DDB does not provide enough security.  Though securelevel cannot be
changed,

	(1) Turn off power.
	(2) Boot as single-user mode.
	(3) Do what crackers want.

or

	(1) Turn off power.
	(2) Remove HDD.
	(3) Mount on another FreeBSD box.
	(4) Edit a file in the HDD.
	(5) Return HDD.
	(6) Reboot.

is available.

-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>  |        FreeBSD           |
Dept. Earth Planet. Sci, Nagoya Univ.          |    The power to serve!   |
Nagoya, 464-8602, Japan                        |  http://www.FreeBSD.org/ |
++++ FreeBSD(98) 3.2:   Rev. 01 available!     |http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/|
++++ FreeBSD(98) 2.2.8: Rev. 02 available!     +==========================+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 22: 6:59 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:06:02 +1000
From: Peter Jeremy <jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
In-reply-to: <199909070420.VAA77483@apollo.backplane.com>
To: dillon@apollo.backplane.com
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
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Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> wrote:
>   If the system winds up in a state where a kernel core cannot be
>   generated, DDB is the only way to figure out what is going on.  
>   securelevel is a mechanism which attempts to guarentee data security,
>   at least to a degree.

The problem is that DDB currently allows too much freedom.  It
needs to disable various commands as the securelevel is raised.
Working out which commands is the non-trivial exercise - especially
since you can add new ones with DB_COMMAND().

Peter



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 22:40:13 1999
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From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@tumbolia.com>
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To: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
Cc: dillon@apollo.backplane.com, gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au,
	des@flood.ping.uio.no, bde@zeta.org.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
In-Reply-To: <19990907140016E.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, KATO Takenori wrote:

> DDB does not provide enough security.  Though securelevel cannot be
> changed,
> 
> 	(1) Turn off power.
> 	(2) Boot as single-user mode.

Setting the console as insecure should protect against this.  

> or
> 
> 	(1) Turn off power.
> 	(2) Remove HDD.
> 	(3) Mount on another FreeBSD box.
> 	(4) Edit a file in the HDD.
> 	(5) Return HDD.
> 	(6) Reboot.
> 
> is available.

There isn't a whole lot you can do to protect a system against crackers who
have physical access to the system.  Heavily armed guards would help, but I
don't expect to see them as part of the base distribution anytime soon.


David Scheidt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 22:41:37 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-ID: <37D4A582.B267D5B8@softweyr.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 23:41:22 -0600
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
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To: peter@taronga.com
Cc: Mikhail Teterin <mi@aldan.algebra.com>, stable@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de
Subject: Re: Linux StarOffice51 runs on -stable
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peter@taronga.com wrote:
> 
> > It is. Without it, soffice keeps bringing up setup over and over instead
> > of just starting the damn office.
> 
> Well, my copy calls this file libosl517li.so, and doing this "sed" trick on
> it just makes it exit without doing anything. Not doing it gives me the
> previously noted "can't get out of setup" problem. And my .sversionrc file
> looked like it was fine.

Upgrade to -STABLE or -CURRENT.

-- 
            "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                         Softweyr LLC
http://softweyr.com/                                           wes@softweyr.com


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 22:46:27 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:00:54 +1000."
             <19990907120054.A93315@gurney.reilly.home> 
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> On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 07:15:00PM -0400, Ugen Antsilevitch wrote:
> > Supporting winmodems
> > btw would be nice, although i doubt manufacturers will give us their code.
> 
> That might not be necessary, eventually.  I've heard, obliquely,
> of a project to develop "open source" modem (data pump) software
> that is obviously aimed at these things.  It's not rocket science
> (well, not to DSP folks), and it is well and truly standardised.
> It would be a good final-year EE project in the right school.
> Also, since the theoretical limits of the POTS channel have pretty
> much been reached with V.34-bis or V.90, it's not even a moving
> target any more.  No wonder they're cheap now.
> 
> Does anyone know whether there's more to a "WinModem" than a
> line hybrid, a codec and a PCI interface?

It depends.  Some of them put the DSP on the card, but expect you to do 
the V.xx encoding in software; others want it all.

Note that the DSP part of the work is the easy bit; the rest of the 
line protocols less so.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 23: 5:48 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Ben Williams <williamsl@home.com>
Cc: FreeBSD hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>,
	FreeBSD questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: new kernel build, bad MSF image 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 20:36:13 EDT."
             <9858.990906@home.com> 
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>    I  have  only  recently  begun to use FreeBSD but I consider myself
> competent  with  Linux  and  I have had FreeBSD installed on my PC for
> over a week now and I decided to build a kernel for my machine and get
> rid  of all the unnecessary drivers and whatnot (like everything SCSI,
> the Qcam stuff, PS/2 mouse stuff, etc) and I finally got the kernel to
> build  after having to fight with it over the definition of the floppy
> drive.
>    Here's the problem: Whenever I attempt to boot my FreeBSD partition
> (I'm  dual-booting FreeBSD & 98) it goes through all the normal bootup
> messages  until it mounts the root partition ("changing root device to
> wd0s1a")  and  it  immediately  complains  about  "panic: MFS image is
> invalid!!"  and  forces  me  to  reboot. This happens if I use kernel,
> kernel.old or kernel.GENERIC. What can I do to fix it?

It's hard to see how you could be ending up in this case, since to get 
that error message you have to have loaded an MFS root image, however 
the real problem is likely that there is something wrong with the way 
that you have laid your disk out.

If the FreeBSD root filesystem is really wd0s1a, ie. in the first slice 
of the first IDE disk, it's hard to guess where you've put Windows.  If 
it's not there, then there is something funky with your disk layout 
which is preventing the loader from finding the right filesystem.

What you _don't_ say, and this is a criminal omission, is what you did 
to cause this.  Since you managed to build a kernel at one point, you 
have had the system working before.  If you won't admit to us what 
you've done to break it, how are we to guess at what might be required 
to fix it?

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 23:17:56 1999
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From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8
Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Greg Black <gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au>,
	Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
In-Reply-To: <199909070420.VAA77483@apollo.backplane.com>
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 >    I disagree quite strongly.  DDB provides a mechanism to allow a
 >    sysadmin to obtain a greater amount of information from a panic
 >    situation then he could get otherwise.  Being able to obtain this
 >    information does not run counter to running with a raised securelevel.
 > 
 >    If the system winds up in a state where a kernel core cannot be
 >    generated, DDB is the only way to figure out what is going on.  
 >    securelevel is a mechanism which attempts to guarentee data security,
 >    at least to a degree.  These two items do not clash.
 > 

Anyway, as soon as you can physically access the PC, youD loose anyway,
independent of whether you can go into DDB to do things. You can reboot,
boot a floppy. Yes you can do something about those things, but only to
a limited extent.

Nick


-- 
ISIS/STA, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, 21020 Ispra, Italy



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon Sep  6 23:24:58 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 01:28:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Fumerola <billf@jade.chc-chimes.com>
To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
Cc: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>,
	Greg Black <gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au>,
	Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.9909070811400.5634-100000@elect8>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Nick Hibma wrote:

> Anyway, as soon as you can physically access the PC, youD loose anyway,
> independent of whether you can go into DDB to do things. You can reboot,
> boot a floppy. Yes you can do something about those things, but only to
> a limited extent.

Not without someone noticing in a big way. DDB is a silent attack.

-- 
- bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp -
- ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org  -






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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  0: 9:53 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909070711.DAA05781@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 03:11:24 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, wes@softweyr.com, hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199909061949.MAA02493@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Sep 6, 99 12:49:17 pm
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Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Jason Thorpe 
had to walk into mine and say:

> On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 16:23:00 -0600 
>  Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com> wrote:
> 
>  > >  > See, for instance, the al, ax, mx, pn, vr, and wb drivers.  ;^)
>  > >                                           ^^
>  > >                  Especially this one.. it's not a Tulip clone :-)
>  > 
>  > Oh?  vr(4) disagrees:
>  > 
>  >      The VIA Rhine chips use bus master DMA and have a software interface de-
>  >      signed to resemble that of the DEC 21x4x "tulip" chips.
> 
> I don't care what the manual page says; take a look at the respective
> programming manuals for the chips.  Hell, take a look at if_vrreg.h and
> if_pnreg.h.  The vast differences are *very* obvious.
> 
> Really, the only thing that's even vaguely similar is that both of them
> use chained descriptors which are 16 bytes long, with similar layout (but
> not compatible bits within each longword).

It sure looks to me like somebody was trying to duplicate the tulip
descriptor layout though. No, it's not an exact copy, but there is
a pretty close resemblance.
 
> The registers are totally different.

True.
 
> ...tho, I guess he did say "resemble" ... The SiS 900 "resembles" a Tulip,
> too (uses chained descriptors!), and the Tulip "resembles" the DEC SGEC
> (a lot more than the Rhine "resembles" the Tulip, tho :-)

The SiS 900 only has one combined status/control word in its 
descriptor structure (some of the bits mean different things depending 
on whether the descriptors are in the RX ring or TX ring) instead of a 
separate status and control word. The descriptors are also only 3 
longwords in size.

> The various Tulip clones are actually somewhat close to Tulips (e.g. same
> registers, for the most part, same bits in the registers), and can be driven
> by the same driver, with various special cases in them for the (usually slight)
> differences [this is the approach I'm taking in NetBSD; why Bill didn't write
> a single driver for all the clones I'm not sure I'll ever know...]

I thought about that. But after seeing just how many tulip workalikes
there are and just how many differences and peculiarities there were, I 
decided that I just couldn't combine everything into one driver and keep 
it all working right without the code ending up looking really ugly. 
There are also more than just a few slight differences between chipsets.
Some of them have the standard tulip receive filter mechanism (DMA the
setup frame via the TX DMA engine). Some of them have just a couple of 
registers to program, but there are at least three different variations 
of this. At least one of them uses the DEC RX filter scheme but with only 
a 128 bit multicast hash table (the PNIC II -- damned if I know why they 
did that). The ones that use only the register programming method only 
have a 64 bit hash table. At least one of them has its registers spaced 
only 4 bytes apart instead of 8 (the Winbond). Some of them can have 
either an MII transceiver accessed via an MDIO bit-bang interface, or a 
serial transceiver. Some of them have built-in MII-like transceivers, but 
out of those, some of them use the bit-bang interface while others let 
you access the PHY registers directly. Some of them have built-in NWAY 
implemented without using an MII-like interface (PNIC, Macronix). Some 
of them have built-in NWAY designed to look like an MII interface 
(Macronix 98713) while the next revision up uses custom registers 
(Macronix 98713A). Some of them have built-in NWAY that doesn't work 
right (PNIC 82c168). Some of them use the standard DEC serial I/O 
interface to access the EEPROM. Some of them have custom registers 
(PNIC). Some of them have bugs that require some off the wall software 
workarounds (PNIC, Winbond, Davicom). Some of them obey the DEC SROM 
spec. Some don't. Many of them have additional custom registers for 
various purposes usually related to wake on lan.

And that's just the PCI devices: who knows what other oddities will
turn up once we have cardbus support. (And we will have cardbus support
some day soon, right Warner? Hello? Warner? You okay? Hm. Somebody want to 
call an ambulance for Warner? Thank you. Breathe, Warner. _Breathe._
That's better.)

Is it possible to cram all this stuff into one driver? Well, sure: the 
Linux tulip driver does it, although I can't say whether or not the
Linux driver handles all of the supported cards correctly all of the 
time. Could you do it? Sure, why not. Could *I* do it? I don't think 
so, at least not in an elegant fashion. I can only handle one catastrophe 
at a time.

-Bill

-- 
=============================================================================
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
=============================================================================
 "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness"
=============================================================================


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  0:27:41 1999
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From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: FreeBSD hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: new kernel build, bad MSF image
Message-ID: <19990907090223.A20445@keltia.freenix.fr>
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According to Ben Williams:
> wd0s1a")  and  it  immediately  complains  about  "panic: MFS image is
> invalid!!"  and  forces  me  to  reboot. This happens if I use kernel,

Don't use the option MFS_ROOT_SIZE...
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #73: Sat Jul 31 15:36:05 CEST 1999



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  1:27:17 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31])
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	(envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no)
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To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>,
	Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
References: <199909060513.PAA12402@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <19990906142342F.kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> <xzp1zcco10z.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no> <199909061539.IAA74893@apollo.backplane.com> <19990906141231.L18814@futuresouth.com> <199909062029.NAA76229@apollo.backplane.com>
From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>
Date: 07 Sep 1999 10:26:18 +0200
In-Reply-To: Matthew Dillon's message of "Mon, 6 Sep 1999 13:29:44 -0700 (PDT)"
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Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> writes:
>     So making DDB 'secure-level friendly' would be a useful thing
>     tgo do, I think.  The idea is not to disable DDB, but to simply 
>     limit the actions that can be performed within it if the securelevel
>     has been raised.  The sysadmin would only be allowed to issue
>     passive commands, cont, and 'panic'.  The sysadmin would not be
>     allowed to modify the running system.

That's an excellent idea - it shouldn't be too hard to add a kernel
option (say, DDB_RESTRICTED) and #ifndef the "dangerous" commands.

DES (must... write... patches...)
-- 
Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  1:48:28 1999
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From: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
To: Michael Reifenberger <root@nihil.plaut.de>
Cc: Doug <Doug@gorean.org>, FreeBSD-Hackers <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: /etc sh script cleanup ready for testing 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 23:00:18 +0200."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909062240520.928-100000@nihil.plaut.de> 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:45:22 +0200
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On Mon, 06 Sep 1999 23:00:18 +0200, Michael Reifenberger wrote:

> While you are at it, could you please change rc.serial to be
> consistent with the other rc* files? rc.serial should only implement
> the functions and import all variable data from rc.conf...

Careful.  As pointed out to me by Bruce Evans, rc.serial is _not_ the
same as the other files.  It was obtained elsewhere and is implicitly
self-contained.

While you may want to change that, this is not part of Doug's nor my nor
Jordan's goal with what we're doing now.  If it's something that can and
should be done, it can and should be done later.

> BTW: please make the rc* files be self contained (where it makes
> sense) so that they can be called outside of rc. Each file should
> include rc.conf for itself

Again, I'm sure your diffs will make for an interesting read,  but
that's a job for another day. Let's stick to the issue of reviewing
Doug's trajectory, given what he's aiming at. Now's not the time to
change his target.

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  2:14:27 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:12:23 +0100
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: src/etc/rc.sysctl installation
Message-ID: <19990907101223.A69293@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk>
References: <199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> <199909070331.VAA09658@harmony.village.org>
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In-Reply-To: <199909070331.VAA09658@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 09:31:01PM -0600
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On Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 09:31:01PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> Brian Somers writes:
> : Is it time to install src/etc/rc.sysctl now ?  I certainly think it's 
> : a good idea :-]
> 
> No.  I don't think we want to install rc.sysctl for an installworld.
> It would spam changes that others make to them.

Possibly installing it as /etc/defaults/rc.sysctl?
-- 
Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator

"vi has two modes the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesnt."
	-- Anon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  2:25:54 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
To: Dominic Mitchell <Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: src/etc/rc.sysctl installation 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:12:23 +0100."
             <19990907101223.A69293@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 11:23:14 +0200
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On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:12:23 +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:

> Possibly installing it as /etc/defaults/rc.sysctl?

No. Sysctl.conf might belong in defaults, rc.sysctl doesn't.

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  2:28:30 1999
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Following through on something that Doug mentioned, I ran into this 
very worthwhile discussion of the BSD and BSD-like licenses.  I would 
commend this to anyone that's ever been even vaguely interested in 
licenses, as it puts a number of issues very well.

  http://gel.urstudios.com/rationale.html

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  2:40:34 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	Tue, 7 Sep 1999 18:36:38 +0900 (JST)
To: des@flood.ping.uio.no
Cc: dillon@apollo.backplane.com, fullermd@futuresouth.com,
	kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp, bde@zeta.org.au,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel
From: KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "07 Sep 1999 10:26:18 +0200"
	<xzpu2p7ktzp.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no>
References: <xzpu2p7ktzp.fsf@flood.ping.uio.no>
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Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no> wrote:

> That's an excellent idea - it shouldn't be too hard to add a kernel
> option (say, DDB_RESTRICTED) and #ifndef the "dangerous" commands.

To achieve both higher security and kenel hackers convenience, I'd
submit following idea:

  - If securelevel > 1, DDB is in restricted mode.
  - If securelevel > 1 and an option is defined, DDB is in powerful
    mode.
  - If securelvel < 1, DDB is in powerful mode.

-----------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>  |        FreeBSD           |
Dept. Earth Planet. Sci, Nagoya Univ.          |    The power to serve!   |
Nagoya, 464-8602, Japan                        |  http://www.FreeBSD.org/ |
++++ FreeBSD(98) 3.2:   Rev. 01 available!     |http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/|
++++ FreeBSD(98) 2.2.8: Rev. 02 available!     +==========================+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  3: 7:58 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
	Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 22:15:26 -0400."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909062215140.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net> 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 18:07:35 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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"Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> > Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> > and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> > cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.
> 
> And MCA and EISA attachments.

Well, it seems Bruce objects to this..  I don't know why though.  If he's
concerned about loosing the tightly integrated sio<->isa stuff then I guess
there could be an "osio" (old sio) or "isasio" or something driver that
remains isa-specific.  I could well imagine this could be important for
older/slower machines.

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  3:12:29 1999
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Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD 
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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 18:10:14 +0800
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Wilko Bulte wrote:
> As Brian F. Feldman wrote ...
> > On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:
> > 
> > > Mike Smith:
> > >  |> Also, I wonder if you've seen/heard of an MTRR patch for 3.2-RELEASE
> > >  |
> > >  |You could try to backport the two sets of commits I just made to the 
> > >  |-stable branch, but you might be better off moving to -stable or to 
> > >  |3.3-RELEASE.
> > > 
> > > Ok, I might try that.  From Brian's message, it sounds like he's made som
    e
> > > commits for MTRR.  Would I need those as well (or are your commits the wo
    rk
> > > he spoke of).
> > 
> > It may be worth specifying that k6_mem.c should be disabled in RELENG_3 pen
    ding
> > further investigation of problems with the MTRR interfeace (i.e. that it ca
    n
> > corrupt other memory...) For now, it's unsafe.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing the point here, but as a AMD user I'm interested anyway:
> 'should be disabled', does that mean one has to 'hand hack' to disable it?
> Stable being -stable I'd have guessed it should be disabled by default
> if it is not 100% working like it should.

Uncomment the files.i386 line that adds k6_mem.c back to the build and it
will be reactivated.  The problem is that it's been implicated as causing
severe kernel (malloc and zone allocator) corruption when it's actually
used, eg: when firing up XFree86 3.9.16.  The code is quite harmless when
it's dormant though :-), but whem XFree86 4.0 gets released, it will cause
RELENG_3 machines to die all over the place, which we don't need.

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  4: 2:30 1999
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Subject: Re: src/etc/rc.sysctl installation 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Sep 1999 21:31:01 MDT."
             <199909070331.VAA09658@harmony.village.org> 
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> In message <199909070023.BAA29419@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> Brian Somers writes:
> : Is it time to install src/etc/rc.sysctl now ?  I certainly think it's 
> : a good idea :-]
> 
> No.  I don't think we want to install rc.sysctl for an installworld.
> It would spam changes that others make to them.

I wasn't suggesting we should do it from installworld - just from 
src/etc/Makefile (used by ``make release'').

> Warner
> 

-- 
Brian <brian@Awfulhak.org>                        <brian@FreeBSD.org>
      <http://www.Awfulhak.org>                   <brian@OpenBSD.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !          <brian@FreeBSD.org.uk>




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  6: 8:44 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 09:03:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
	Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <19990907100735.8E89B1CA9@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Peter Wemm wrote:
> Well, it seems Bruce objects to this..  I don't know why though.  If
> he's concerned about loosing the tightly integrated sio<->isa stuff
> then I guess there could be an "osio" (old sio) or "isasio" or
> something driver that remains isa-specific.  I could well imagine this
> could be important for older/slower machines.

Is he on the same page as the rest of us here?  We're just talking about
the probe/attach bits, and anywhere else that makes use of isa_get_foo()
calls that could be handled via more abstract methods right?

I don't get this non-maintainence maintainer role here.

- Confused in Maryland.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  7:49:22 1999
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From: "Kelly Yancey" <kbyanc@alcnet.com>
To: <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: <thomas.uhrfelt@plymovent.se>
Subject: RE: Dell PERC LVD card (Power Edge Raid Controller)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 10:47:28 -0400
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  This is indeed a good idea. If nobody else has stepped up to the
challenge, I will try to have such a site up by the end of the week (Well,
let's make it Sunday...gives me the weekend to work on it too :) ). I'll
keep everyone posted.

  Kelly
 ~kbyanc@posi.net~
  FreeBSD - The Power To Serve - http://www.freebsd.org/
  Join Team FreeBSD - http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/

 "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of
  folly is to fill the world with fools." - Herbert Spencer


> An excellent initiative!
>
> I think there are many administrators/system managers out there with a
huge
> stack of unused goods lying on the shelves to no use at all. Perhaps there
> should be a database where interested devicedriver programmers could post
> their needs and sysadminds could post their unneeded hardware on. Perhaps
in
> that way we could speed up the development of HW drivers for FreeBSD? Any
> thoughts on this one?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Geoff Buckingham
> > Sent: den 3 september 1999 10:08
> > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> > Subject: Dell PERC LVD card (Power Edge Raid Controller)
> >
> >
> >
> > Through a mis-order I have aquired a PERC card (Actually an AMI
megaRAID)
> > which I am happy to make available to anyone genuinly interested
> > in working
> > on a driver (This is the PCI RAID card that goes into Dells Power
> > Edge servers
> > if ordered in a RAID configuration)
> >
> > --
> > Geoff Buckingham
> > Systems Manager
> > Netlink Internet Services
> >
> >



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  7:58:49 1999
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From: Don Lewis <Don.Lewis@tsc.tdk.com>
Message-Id: <199909071458.HAA00426@salsa.gv.tsc.tdk.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 07:58:28 -0700
In-Reply-To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
       "Re: mbuf shortage situations" (Sep  5,  9:18pm)
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To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>,
	Bosko Milekic <bmilekic@dsuper.net>
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sep 5,  9:18pm, Matthew Dillon wrote:
} Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
} :	The only reason that I see for which we would actually panic() in
} :this situation (as opposed to suffer the packet loss) is if we get to the
} :point where we're losing packets because some script kid starts up
} :something that will eat up sockbuf space and continuously fork, then we
} :would lose all remote access to the machine in question (since all packets
} :would be dropped) and we wouldn't really mind a panic() for obvious
} :practical reasons.

Well, I really would mind the panic().

} :	In any case, I, personally, would prefer to suffer packet loss as
} :opposed to a panic (especially now that Brian is in the process of writing
} :diffs that will allow us to limit socket buffer space per UID through
} :login.conf!)
} :	Having MGET store that null (e.g. fail as opposed to panic) on a
} :M_WAIT seems fairly easy to fix, and would probably require some patching
} :that would ensure that the packet loss is handeled relatively 'cleanly'
} :(probably some debugging), but I wouldn't mind doing this. However, I'd
} :like to know if there are objections to doing this or, in fact, if there
} :are any suggestions on how to handle mbuf shortage situations (aside from
} :just limiting -- although limiting is in itself a good solution and I'm
} :glad that Brian F. is working on that).

At least historically most of the panics have been caused by the code
not properly checking the result of the MGET and dereferencing a NULL
pointer.  Any of those that are still in the code need to be fixed.

My impression is that for reasonably recent versions of FreeBSD
this attack doesn't panic the machine but just wedges the network
system due to mbuf exhaustion.  The problem is that if you get to
this point you're basically hosed.  It's OK to toss packets that
you receive from the net as long as you haven't sent an ack for them,
toss outgoing UDP packets, and block writes to stream sockets, but
you can't toss acked TCP packets that you've received, or the data
queued to a stream socket by write().  This particular attack does
the latter, so the only possible fix is to prevent all the mbufs
from being consumed by it in the first place.

}     The issue is basically having someone find the time to figure out
}     how to gracefully unwind various pieces of network code when an
}     mbuf cannot be allocated.  Once that is done, the panic can be
}     turned into a (rate-limited) printf.

That won't help.  All that does is keep a root spinning on a failed
syscall instead of blocking on MGET when he's trying to log in to
kill the errant process.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  8:59:47 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 08:58:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909071558.IAA81847@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
Cc: Greg Black <gjb-freebsd@gba.oz.au>,
	Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
	KATO Takenori <kato@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp>, bde@zeta.org.au,
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: >    generated, DDB is the only way to figure out what is going on.  
: >    securelevel is a mechanism which attempts to guarentee data security,
: >    at least to a degree.  These two items do not clash.
: > 
:
:Anyway, as soon as you can physically access the PC, youD loose anyway,
:independent of whether you can go into DDB to do things. You can reboot,
:boot a floppy. Yes you can do something about those things, but only to
:a limited extent.
:
:Nick

    I wasn't really thinking of the console-on-vty case.  I was thinking
    of the console-on-serial-port case.  When you have a rack of PC's you
    usually hang the console off a serial port and throw it into a portmaster
    or another machine w/ a multi-port card in it.

    There are two reasons for doing this.  First in order to be able to log
    all messages sent to the console on a separate box, and second to be able
    to perform maintenance on the machines & deal with panics, lockups, and 
    other situations for which DDB might be useful without having to haul the
    card with the video monitor and keyboard physically over to the machine.

    This also comes in useful when dealing with network attacks that make it
    impossible to log into a machine the normal way.

    But, unfortunately, putting the console on a serial port creates 
    vulnerabilities when DDB is enabled.  You are, essentially, creating
    an unintentional backdoor into the system. Hence the problem.

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  9: 0: 6 1999
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org>
References: <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au>
	<37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
	<199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org>
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> : I'd really like to see the sio driver code being able to support PCI
> : devices... 
> 
> Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.

But, they should be PCI/non-Winmodem, as Kevin pointed out, so we
shouldn't need cardbus seperately from pci.



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  9: 4: 8 1999
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To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
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		<199909071558.JAA21715@mt.sri.com> 
References: <199909071558.JAA21715@mt.sri.com>  <4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au> <37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com> <199909060300.VAA01699@harmony.village.org> 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:02:45 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909071558.JAA21715@mt.sri.com> Nate Williams writes:
: But, they should be PCI/non-Winmodem, as Kevin pointed out, so we
: shouldn't need cardbus seperately from pci.

Just the attachment...

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  9: 4:35 1999
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To: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>,
	Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
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Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <19990907100735.8E89B1CA9@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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	<19990907100735.8E89B1CA9@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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> "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> > On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> > > and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> > > cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.
> > 
> > And MCA and EISA attachments.
> 
> Well, it seems Bruce objects to this..  I don't know why though.

My guess is that he's worried that we'll end up with lots of additional
'indirection' through the system, thus slowing down the ability to
service interrupts in a quick manner.

Also, don't fast interrupts depend on the ISA bus?  Fast interrupts are
a requirement for *any* machine to run at a reasonable speed, old/slow
or new/fast, it doesn't make any difference.




Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  9: 6:58 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams),
	Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	ugen@xonix.com (Ugen Antsilevitch), questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-Reply-To: <199909071602.KAA13099@harmony.village.org>
References: <199909071558.JAA21715@mt.sri.com>
	<4.2.0.58.19990906100437.04bf3890@arthur.intraceptives.com.au>
	<37D2C371.1835A96B@xonix.com>
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> : But, they should be PCI/non-Winmodem, as Kevin pointed out, so we
> : shouldn't need cardbus seperately from pci.
> 
> Just the attachment...

Ahh, OK.  I'm not familiar enough with the new code to know how exactly
it's organized. :)


Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7  9: 9:33 1999
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To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>,
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	Dag-Erling Smorgrav <des@flood.ping.uio.no>,
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Subject: Re: Init(8) cannot decrease securelevel 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 08:58:45 PDT."
             <199909071558.IAA81847@apollo.backplane.com> 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 18:07:40 +0200
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>    But, unfortunately, putting the console on a serial port creates 
>    vulnerabilities when DDB is enabled.  You are, essentially, creating
>    an unintentional backdoor into the system. Hence the problem.

ports/*/conserver is your friend!

--
Poul-Henning Kamp             FreeBSD coreteam member
phk@FreeBSD.ORG               "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 10:16:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Cc: bde@freebsd.org, "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>,
	Warner Losh <imp@village.org>,
	Warren Welch <wwlists@intraceptives.com.au>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,
	Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:03:26 CST."
             <199909071603.KAA21766@mt.sri.com> 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 01:13:56 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Nate Williams wrote:
> > "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> > > On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Warner Losh wrote:
> > > > Might be a good time have a sys/dev/sio and have pccard, cardbus, pci
> > > > and isa attachments there.  Yes, I did say cardbus, since I have seen
> > > > cardbus PCI modems that are NOT winmodems.
> > > 
> > > And MCA and EISA attachments.
> > 
> > Well, it seems Bruce objects to this..  I don't know why though.  If he's
> > concerned about loosing the tightly integrated sio<->isa stuff then I guess
> > there could be an "osio" (old sio) or "isasio" or something driver that
> > remains isa-specific.  I could well imagine this could be important for
> > older/slower machines.

[full quote restored for bde's benefit, he may not be reading this thread
 about adding support for this in -hackers]

> My guess is that he's worried that we'll end up with lots of additional
> 'indirection' through the system, thus slowing down the ability to
> service interrupts in a quick manner.

If that's what he's worried about then I wish he'd say so.  Nothing that
we want to do requires breaking this.

> Also, don't fast interrupts depend on the ISA bus?  Fast interrupts are
> a requirement for *any* machine to run at a reasonable speed, old/slow
> or new/fast, it doesn't make any difference.

Yes..  Which is part of the reason for moving the interrupt *setup* to
bus-specific code.  The handler would be the same regardless and there
wouldn't need to be any indirections or performance impairments as a
result.

One of the things I was going to fix was the hack where com_addr() is using
device_get_softc().  This is not fast interrupt safe and needs to go back
to something along the lines of what it was before.  The end result would
be that there would be *less* new-bus code in the core sio.c as it'd be
moved aside.

> Nate

Cheers,
-Peter



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 10:25:14 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Cc: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Subject: STABLE kern/13546: Too-verbose output from PCI probe at bootup
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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 10:24:53 -0700
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From: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
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Hello.  I recently submitted this kernel PR (13546) against STABLE, and
Sheldon Hearn suggested forwarding this note to freebsd-hackers to ask
for opinions.

The PCI probe code is much too verbose when it probes for PCI busses
that do not exist.  On this (4xPPro) system, I get this message:

    Probing for devices on PCI bus 2
    Probing for devices on PCI bus 3
    ...
    Probing for devices on PCI bus 255

nearly 255 times.  CURRENT does not display all these messages.

My fix for STABLE below simply puts the verbose messages under
"bootverbose", so the messages can still be displayed if one
boots "-v" but not otherwise.

  ***************
  *** 547,553 ****
	  while (bus <= bushigh) {
		  int newbushigh;

  !               printf("Probing for devices on PCI bus %d:\n", bus);
		  newbushigh = pci_probebus(bus);

		  if (bushigh < newbushigh)
  --- 547,555 ----
	  while (bus <= bushigh) {
		  int newbushigh;

  !               if (bootverbose)
  !                       printf("Probing for devices on PCI bus %d:\n", bus);
  !
		  newbushigh = pci_probebus(bus);

		  if (bushigh < newbushigh)


I looked over the PCI code in STABLE and CURRENT more closely.  The
CURRENT code does not display this message because the code is no longer
there!  CURRENT probes for and attaches PCI bridges as bus/devices and
STABLE does not.

In pci/pci.c, the STABLE version uses the "bushigh" return value from
pci_probebus() to determine the next PCI bus number to probe.  My guess
is that the 4xPPRO box I've got lies and always returns one more bus to
probe for this code.

CURRENT's pci/pci.c however doesn't use this "bushigh" information from
pci_add_children(), and indeed doesn't use its return value at all.
(The code determining bushigh can be deleted and pci_add_children should
return "void".)  It seems to detect the bridge chip and attach that as a
device and then probes under it.  STABLE doesn't seem to do this and
its code is scattered with XXX througout.

So I think my patch for simply wrapping the "Probing PCI bus" message
with an "if (bootverbose)" is the right solution/workaround for systems
like mine running STABLE.  Not that it's a big deal - it's easy enough
for me to patch by hand - but I thought that others may be similarly
afflicted.


	-- Parag Patel


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 10:47:28 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 13:46:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christopher T. Griffiths" <cgriffiths@quansoo.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Web based passwd changing program 
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909071345580.3213-100000@defiant.quansoo.com>
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Hi everyone,

I found a very nice web enable password changing script written in c that
currently works in linux and solaris.  It seems to be laid out very nicely
and I would like to know if anyone would care to take a crack at getting
it to work on FBSD.  It also uses shadow passwords so hacking at it and
getting it to work with master.passwd should not be a huge problem :) well
maybe it will.  Anyway I do not have the time to do this myself and I was
wondering if any of you would like to see if they can get this to work so
that it would possibly benefit all of us.  Also another idea would be if
we could get it to work, to maybe put it in the ports tree.

Just a couple of ideas.

Please email me back if this sounds apealing and I will give you the
download location for the source code.

Thanks

Chris

Christopher T. Griffiths	        
Senior Network/Systems Administrator
Quansoo Group Inc.
cgriffiths@quansoo.com
Phone:   (302) 777-4141
Fax:     (302) 777-4142
Mobile:  (302) 521-3436





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 10:59:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909071757.LAA14028@harmony.village.org>
To: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>
Subject: Re: src/etc/rc.sysctl installation 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:05:33 BST."
		<199909071105.MAA71056@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> 
References: <199909071105.MAA71056@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org>  
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 11:57:38 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909071105.MAA71056@keep.lan.Awfulhak.org> Brian Somers writes:
: I wasn't suggesting we should do it from installworld - just from 
: src/etc/Makefile (used by ``make release'').

Yes.  IT should be, but isn't right now.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11: 3:46 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 11:21:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: "Christopher T. Griffiths" <cgriffiths@quansoo.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Web based passwd changing program 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909071345580.3213-100000@defiant.quansoo.com>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Christopher T. Griffiths wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I found a very nice web enable password changing script written in c that
> currently works in linux and solaris.  It seems to be laid out very nicely
> and I would like to know if anyone would care to take a crack at getting
> it to work on FBSD.  It also uses shadow passwords so hacking at it and
> getting it to work with master.passwd should not be a huge problem :) well
> maybe it will.  Anyway I do not have the time to do this myself and I was
> wondering if any of you would like to see if they can get this to work so
> that it would possibly benefit all of us.  Also another idea would be if
> we could get it to work, to maybe put it in the ports tree.

It's simple to get such user management utilities running on FreeBSD,
just check out the "pw" command.

We anxiously await your diffs/port. :)

> 
> Just a couple of ideas.
> 
> Please email me back if this sounds apealing and I will give you the
> download location for the source code.

Including it in your origional email would have probably been a
better idea...

so where is this thing?

-Alfred

> 
> Thanks
> 
> Chris
> 
> Christopher T. Griffiths	        
> Senior Network/Systems Administrator
> Quansoo Group Inc.
> cgriffiths@quansoo.com
> Phone:   (302) 777-4141
> Fax:     (302) 777-4142
> Mobile:  (302) 521-3436
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11: 6:26 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9B414D84
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:04:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christopher T. Griffiths" <cgriffiths@quansoo.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Web based passwd changing program 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909071119340.6392-100000@fw.wintelcom.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909071404120.3468-100000@defiant.quansoo.com>
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

here is the url:

ftp://win.co.nz/web-pwd/v0.3/

On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Christopher T. Griffiths wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > I found a very nice web enable password changing script written in c that
> > currently works in linux and solaris.  It seems to be laid out very nicely
> > and I would like to know if anyone would care to take a crack at getting
> > it to work on FBSD.  It also uses shadow passwords so hacking at it and
> > getting it to work with master.passwd should not be a huge problem :) well
> > maybe it will.  Anyway I do not have the time to do this myself and I was
> > wondering if any of you would like to see if they can get this to work so
> > that it would possibly benefit all of us.  Also another idea would be if
> > we could get it to work, to maybe put it in the ports tree.
> 
> It's simple to get such user management utilities running on FreeBSD,
> just check out the "pw" command.
> 
> We anxiously await your diffs/port. :)
> 
> > 
> > Just a couple of ideas.
> > 
> > Please email me back if this sounds apealing and I will give you the
> > download location for the source code.
> 
> Including it in your origional email would have probably been a
> better idea...
> 
> so where is this thing?
> 
> -Alfred
> 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > Christopher T. Griffiths	        
> > Senior Network/Systems Administrator
> > Quansoo Group Inc.
> > cgriffiths@quansoo.com
> > Phone:   (302) 777-4141
> > Fax:     (302) 777-4142
> > Mobile:  (302) 521-3436
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> > 
> 

Christopher T. Griffiths	        
Senior Network/Systems Administrator
Quansoo Group Inc.
cgriffiths@quansoo.com
Phone:   (302) 777-4141
Fax:     (302) 777-4142
Mobile:  (302) 521-3436



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11: 7:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 14:06:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Christopher T. Griffiths" <cgriffiths@quansoo.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Web based passwd changing program 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909071119340.6392-100000@fw.wintelcom.net>
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So everyone can take a look:

here is the url, I meant to put it in the original:

ftp://win.co.nz/web-pwd/v0.3/


On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote:

> 
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Christopher T. Griffiths wrote:
> 
> > Hi everyone,
> > 
> > I found a very nice web enable password changing script written in c that
> > currently works in linux and solaris.  It seems to be laid out very nicely
> > and I would like to know if anyone would care to take a crack at getting
> > it to work on FBSD.  It also uses shadow passwords so hacking at it and
> > getting it to work with master.passwd should not be a huge problem :) well
> > maybe it will.  Anyway I do not have the time to do this myself and I was
> > wondering if any of you would like to see if they can get this to work so
> > that it would possibly benefit all of us.  Also another idea would be if
> > we could get it to work, to maybe put it in the ports tree.
> 
> It's simple to get such user management utilities running on FreeBSD,
> just check out the "pw" command.
> 
> We anxiously await your diffs/port. :)
> 
> > 
> > Just a couple of ideas.
> > 
> > Please email me back if this sounds apealing and I will give you the
> > download location for the source code.
> 
> Including it in your origional email would have probably been a
> better idea...
> 
> so where is this thing?
> 
> -Alfred
> 
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Chris
> > 
> > Christopher T. Griffiths	        
> > Senior Network/Systems Administrator
> > Quansoo Group Inc.
> > cgriffiths@quansoo.com
> > Phone:   (302) 777-4141
> > Fax:     (302) 777-4142
> > Mobile:  (302) 521-3436
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

Christopher T. Griffiths	        
Senior Network/Systems Administrator
Quansoo Group Inc.
cgriffiths@quansoo.com
Phone:   (302) 777-4141
Fax:     (302) 777-4142
Mobile:  (302) 521-3436



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11:32:43 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:33:17 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: The infamous dead alternate system clock
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Hi,

ASUS SMP motherboard (if it matters) with two Pentium IIIs, running SMP
kernel 3.3-RC. Running an UP kernel instead is not an option (i.e. I can
try it out, but I need both CPUs eventually).

Any ideas? I looked in the archives, and found Tor Egge's fix. So, here
are my questions:

* does the problem affect anything else? I'm not at the console, so I
can't be sure, but the machine appears to be very sluggish over the net.

* why this fix is a kludge? what bad consequences can I experience with
it, instead of the above?

I should add to this that I have something like 10 affected systems, soon
going to the production, so the answer is very important to me. In the
light of upcoming RELEASE I think this is also something worth
investigating.

Thanks!


Andrzej Bialecki

//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------
// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11:48:12 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199909071737.TAA00842@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <19990907101014.81C091CA8@overcee.netplex.com.au> from Peter Wemm at "Sep 7, 1999  6:10:14 pm"
To: peter@netplex.com.au (Peter Wemm)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:37:20 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: green@FreeBSD.ORG, aa8vb@ipass.net, mike@smith.net.au,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands
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As Peter Wemm wrote ...
> Wilko Bulte wrote:
> > As Brian F. Feldman wrote ...
> > > On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Randall Hopper wrote:
> > > 
...
> > > corrupt other memory...) For now, it's unsafe.
> > 
> > Maybe I'm missing the point here, but as a AMD user I'm interested anyway:
> > 'should be disabled', does that mean one has to 'hand hack' to disable it?
> > Stable being -stable I'd have guessed it should be disabled by default
> > if it is not 100% working like it should.
> 
> Uncomment the files.i386 line that adds k6_mem.c back to the build and it
> will be reactivated.  The problem is that it's been implicated as causing
> severe kernel (malloc and zone allocator) corruption when it's actually
> used, eg: when firing up XFree86 3.9.16.  The code is quite harmless when
> it's dormant though :-), but whem XFree86 4.0 gets released, it will cause
> RELENG_3 machines to die all over the place, which we don't need.

Which I really don't need ;-) But:

i386/i386/initcpu.c             standard
i386/i386/k6_mem.c              standard

in 

# $FreeBSD: src/sys/i386/conf/files.i386,v 1.220.2.12 1999/08/31 01:19:12
msmith

and

yedi#dmesg|grep -i mt
K6-family MTRR support enabled (2 registers)

in

yedi#uname -a
FreeBSD yedi.iaf.nl 3.3-RC FreeBSD 3.3-RC #0: Mon Sep  6 19:59:25 CEST 1999

I must have missed my system went from 3.2-STABLE to 3.3_RC with the
last cvsup/buildworld/installworld.

The question remains whether I should comment the k6_mem.c in files.i386

Wilko (confused...)
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11:50:44 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 19:48:59 +0100
From: David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie>
To: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Subject: Re: STABLE kern/13546: Too-verbose output from PCI probe at bootup
Message-ID: <19990907194859.A70191@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
References: <6746.936725093@pinhead.parag.codegen.com>
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On Tue, Sep 07, 1999 at 10:24:53AM -0700, Parag Patel wrote:

> So I think my patch for simply wrapping the "Probing PCI bus" message
> with an "if (bootverbose)" is the right solution/workaround for systems
> like mine running STABLE.  Not that it's a big deal - it's easy enough
> for me to patch by hand - but I thought that others may be similarly
> afflicted.

We had a similar problem with our 4 processor machine, and Kevin
Van Maren who was working on the support for the NX chipset suggested
that this could be harmful in the SMP case, so it includes some
code which reduces the number of PCI busses to be somtheing reasonable
- see fixbushigh_450nx in sys/pci/pcisupport.c.

The Dell BIOS guy who I eventually got in contact with said he had
spoken to Kevin about it, and that the 255 value was "correct",
but he couldn't say why because of an Intel NDA.

The code which figures out the bushigh stuff for your machine
probably needs a similar kludge, unless someone can say for certain
that it isn't harful for the SMP case.

	David.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 11:58:22 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:59:03 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: The infamous dead alternate system clock
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909072024590.7980-100000@freja.webgiro.com>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Andrzej Bialecki wrote:

> * does the problem affect anything else? I'm not at the console, so I
> can't be sure, but the machine appears to be very sluggish over the net.

It seems the sluggishness was caused by two Midnight commanders spinning
like crazy and eating 200% of CPU. But the original question still aplies.


Andrzej Bialecki

//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------
// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 12:22:34 1999
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To: David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Subject: Re: STABLE kern/13546: Too-verbose output from PCI probe at bootup 
In-Reply-To: Message from David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie> 
   of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 19:48:59 BST." <19990907194859.A70191@walton.maths.tcd.ie> 
X-Face: =O'Kj74icvU|oS*<7gS/8'\Pbpm}okVj*@UC!IgkmZQAO!W[|iBiMs*|)n*`X
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On Tue, 07 Sep 1999 19:48:59 BST, David Malone wrote:
>
>The code which figures out the bushigh stuff for your machine
>probably needs a similar kludge, unless someone can say for certain
>that it isn't harful for the SMP case.

Probably not worth the effort, since for this system at least, SMP works
just fine after probing for 253 non-existent PCI buses.  The "if
(bootverbose)" just keeps it from blowing the dmesg buffer at bootup.

(The CURRENT code doesn't even look for this "bushigh" value nor display
the "Probing" message.)


	-- Parag Patel


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 14:37:44 1999
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Message-Id: <199909072136.OAA18714@lestat.nas.nasa.gov>
To: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 14:36:00 -0700
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 03:11:24 -0400 (EDT) 
 Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> wrote:

 > The SiS 900 only has one combined status/control word in its 
 > descriptor structure (some of the bits mean different things depending 
 > on whether the descriptors are in the RX ring or TX ring) instead of a 
 > separate status and control word. The descriptors are also only 3 
 > longwords in size.

Yes, I know.  I wrote a driver for this chip for NetBSD :-)

[ snip ... all the quirks ]

...I'm well aware of all of these :-)

Amusingly, these are the same kinds of quirks you have to deal with for
a unified *genuine DEC Tulip* driver.  E.g. 21143s have internal NWAY and
MII; board manufacturer gets to choose which to use.

In any case, I have a single driver for NetBSD that works with both the PNIC
and Winbond clones, and I'm working on support for the other clones.

 > And that's just the PCI devices: who knows what other oddities will
 > turn up once we have cardbus support. (And we will have cardbus support
 > some day soon, right Warner? Hello? Warner? You okay? Hm. Somebody want to 
 > call an ambulance for Warner? Thank you. Breathe, Warner. _Breathe._
 > That's better.)

I think most of the Tulip-like CardBus boards use 21143s.  Thankfully.
AFAIK, none of the current sets of clones are designed for CardBus
applications.

BTW, you forgot EISA (DE-425) ... when I finish all the clone support
in my unified driver, I'm going to migrate support for the genuine DEC
chips, as well.

        -- Jason R. Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 15:53:24 1999
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	(envelope-from ambrisko)
From: Doug Ambrisko <ambrisko@whistle.com>
Message-Id: <199909072252.PAA10781@whistle.com>
Subject: Re: Limit of bus hierarchies (was Re: PCI modems do not work???)
In-Reply-To: <199909060533.WAA16218@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Sep 5, 99 10:33:06 pm"
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT)
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Mike Smith writes:
| > > USB doesn't present a 16550A interface to the host, so I don't think
| > > that sio would have a USB attachment.
| > 
| > So there's going to be manufacturer-specific terminal/serial port drivers
| > to talk to the serial ports on USB-attached laptop docking stations, like
| > the Annex ethernet terminal server things? 
| 
| Presuming we are able to get any documentation out of any of these 
| vendors; so far USB serial ports have been one of the worst things to 
| enquire about.

Yes, difficult to enquire about but fairly easy to figure out.  Soon we should
have a driver to support atleast Entrega USB -> Serial widgets.

As Nick said I can do printfs in the firmware out the serial port and had a
protype perl driver for it working.  Now I'm working on splitting 
functionality between the firmware and an sio type driver.  It's going 
somewhat slow due to my lack of time, knowledge and bug fixing of various 
things such as the sdcc 8051 compiler.  In a couple of weeks I hope to have 
my first cut working.  My goal is to be able to run tip to talk out
the serial port and then test it at 230K.

I've heard that the Belkin device is very similar.

BTW if someone commited the sdcc port more people could play with it and
write their own firmware.   BTW2 I found a bug in more port in which 
it didn't install the headers for sdcc.  I guess I should pr my pr.

Doug A.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 15:58: 2 1999
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From: Doug Ambrisko <ambrisko@whistle.com>
Message-Id: <199909072255.PAA10809@whistle.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GS4.4.10.9909060914140.5512-100000@elect8> from Nick Hibma at "Sep 6, 99 09:16:21 am"
To: nick.hibma@jrc.it
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 15:55:20 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Nick Hibma writes:
|  > And USB?  This reference says that you can (now? soon?) buy a
|  > laptop docking station with all of the usual ports, connected
|  > only by USB...
|  > 
|
| PCI and CardBus to USB. Any one having seen a ISA or PCMCIA variant,
| please let me know.

I thought I saw a PCMCIA -> USB at Fry's.

Doug A.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 16:24:55 1999
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To: Doug Ambrisko <ambrisko@whistle.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work??? 
Cc: nick.hibma@jrc.it, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 15:55:20 PDT."
		<199909072255.PAA10809@whistle.com> 
References: <199909072255.PAA10809@whistle.com>  
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:23:02 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909072255.PAA10809@whistle.com> Doug Ambrisko writes:
: | PCI and CardBus to USB. Any one having seen a ISA or PCMCIA variant,
: | please let me know.
: 
: I thought I saw a PCMCIA -> USB at Fry's.

Mobile Planet has PC Card <-> USB  cards that are not CardBus cards.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 16:27:53 1999
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From: "Brian F. Feldman" <green@FreeBSD.org>
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To: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Cc: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>, aa8vb@ipass.net,
	mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.org
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote:

> Wilko (confused...)

No, I already committed the change to comment it out in -STABLE. I will
investigate further, but I will definitely not have it in by -RELEASE time.
No problem has been noticed before because XFree86 has not supported MTRRs
until recently (snapshots of pre-4.0.) I am going to see what could be
wrong, and possibly reenable the code at a later date. For now, it's
considered "dangerous" and you shouldn't mess with it unless you are willing
to accept the risks that entails.

-- 
 Brian Fundakowski Feldman           /  "Any sufficiently advanced bug is    \
 green@FreeBSD.org                   |   indistinguishable from a feature."  |
     FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!    \        -- Rich Kulawiec               /



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 18:12:13 1999
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From: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199909080113.VAA06935@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:13:22 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199909072136.OAA18714@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Sep 7, 99 02:36:00 pm
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Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Jason Thorpe 
had to walk into mine and say:

> [ snip ... all the quirks ]
> 
> ...I'm well aware of all of these :-)
> 
> Amusingly, these are the same kinds of quirks you have to deal with for
> a unified *genuine DEC Tulip* driver.  E.g. 21143s have internal NWAY and
> MII; board manufacturer gets to choose which to use.

Well, the older chipsets make it even harder on you: you have to know
just the right way to twiddle the bits in the GPIO register in order to
program the media settings, and to figure that out you're supposed to
read the media description from the SROM, which is sometimes wrong.
This opens up a whole other set of quirks.

> In any case, I have a single driver for NetBSD that works with both the PNIC
> and Winbond clones, and I'm working on support for the other clones.

I'm assuming you actually have a Winbond card. If you do, try this for
me: connect the Winbond to a link partner who's media settings you can
easily control, like a managed switch port or another NIC via crossover
cable. Set the Winbond and its link partner to 100Mbps half-duplex.
Exchange a little traffic; a couple of pings should be enough. Then
go to the link partner and change the media settings to 10Mbps half-duplex.
Observe the Winbond closely. (Alternatively, start out with both devices
set to 10Mbps half-duplex and then set the other end to 100Mbps half-duplex.
I don't remember if both cases have the same result.)

Initially I do traffic tests by plugging in the new device directly to
another NIC with a driver that supports ifmedia using a crossover cable.
This lets me test the card in all media settings. I noticed with the
Winbond that if I changed the link partner's speed settings, it would
start DMAing all kinds of crap into the host's memory. Furthermore, I
think it ignores the RX buffer lengths specified in the receive descriptor
ring and trashes various chunks of memory that it shouldn't, leading to
a crash. Given that I never observed this behavior with any of the other
tulip clones using similar code, I was pretty sure this was a chip bug and
not some horrible coding error that I had made somewhere.

I saw this with at least three separate Winbond cards and I tried my
best to detect the condition and smack the chip upside the head to make
it stop, but I'd be interested to see somebody else duplicate the problem
and give me their take on it.

Also, just out of curiosity, have you ever observed the PNIC receiver
bug that gave me so many fits?

>  > And that's just the PCI devices: who knows what other oddities will
>  > turn up once we have cardbus support. (And we will have cardbus support
>  > some day soon, right Warner? Hello? Warner? You okay? Hm. Somebody want to 
>  > call an ambulance for Warner? Thank you. Breathe, Warner. _Breathe._
>  > That's better.)
> 
> I think most of the Tulip-like CardBus boards use 21143s.  Thankfully.
> AFAIK, none of the current sets of clones are designed for CardBus
> applications.

There's at least one that has a cardbus version... darnit, which is
is it. Oh: it's the ADMtek. There's an AL982 designed for PCMCIA and
cardbus use. Unfortunately, the data sheet for it is not on ADMtek's
server, but it's probably the same core as the AL981. In any case, I
don't know of any boards that use the AL982. For that matter, I'm not
even sure which boards use the AL981: the only cards I have are the
samples that ADMtek sent me, and I haven't seen any board resellers
claiming to use it.

> BTW, you forgot EISA (DE-425) ... when I finish all the clone support
> in my unified driver, I'm going to migrate support for the genuine DEC
> chips, as well.

If you can actually get it all to work and retain some portion of your
sanity, I'll be mighty impressed.

-Bill

-- 
=============================================================================
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
=============================================================================
 "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness"
=============================================================================


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 20:18:24 1999
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Message-Id: <199909080316.UAA21624@lestat.nas.nasa.gov>
To: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 20:16:13 -0700
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:13:22 -0400 (EDT) 
 Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> wrote:

 > Well, the older chipsets make it even harder on you: you have to know
 > just the right way to twiddle the bits in the GPIO register in order to
 > program the media settings, and to figure that out you're supposed to
 > read the media description from the SROM, which is sometimes wrong.
 > This opens up a whole other set of quirks.

Yah.  This is pretty annoying.  At least DEC spec'd it to be in the SROM :-)

When it's wrong, the `de' driver gets it wrong, too.  Linux actually quirks
some boards which have incorrect SROM settings.  I guess someone was willing
to trace the traces on the boards (ick!).

 > I'm assuming you actually have a Winbond card. If you do, try this for

Yah, some Unicom card, I think.

 > me: connect the Winbond to a link partner who's media settings you can

[ . . . snip . . . ]

 > Winbond that if I changed the link partner's speed settings, it would
 > start DMAing all kinds of crap into the host's memory. Furthermore, I
 > think it ignores the RX buffer lengths specified in the receive descriptor
 > ring and trashes various chunks of memory that it shouldn't, leading to
 > a crash. Given that I never observed this behavior with any of the other
 > tulip clones using similar code, I was pretty sure this was a chip bug and
 > not some horrible coding error that I had made somewhere.

Yes, I have seen exactly this.  I could only get it to happen if I changed
the Winbond's link partner from 10 -> 100 while the Winbond was still in 10.

I see the TDSTAT_Rx_FS and TDSTAT_Rx_LS bits cleared in the descriptor,
as well.  When I see this condition occur, I attempt to reset the chip.
This does NOT help this condition on the Winbond.  It's thorougly wedged.

Oh yay, cheap chips.

 > I saw this with at least three separate Winbond cards and I tried my
 > best to detect the condition and smack the chip upside the head to make
 > it stop, but I'd be interested to see somebody else duplicate the problem
 > and give me their take on it.

Were you ever able to smack it and make it stop?  :-)

 > Also, just out of curiosity, have you ever observed the PNIC receiver
 > bug that gave me so many fits?

I observed it briefly back when there were still some pretty basic bugs
in the driver, which have since been squashed.  I haven't seen it since.
I'm aware of the nature of the problem and your work-around.  I'm hoping
I don't need to implement it :-)

I have seen some pretty awful problems with the PNIC, tho.  The DMA engine
is a piece of crap.  On a 500MHz AlphaStation 500, who's PCI bus can surely
keep up with a cheap fast Ethernet board, the PNIC gets constant DMA underruns
unless in Store-and-Forward mode, *including the setup frame*.  I have to
initialize the chip into S-F mode just to get the damn filter programmed :-)

I also noticed that DMA underruns don't abort the transmit pipe on the PNIC.
Every DMA underrun on a real packet corresponded to a junk frame hitting
the wire.  A short frame I could understand... but we're talking even the
Ethernet header is toast.

Another interesting problem I've been seeing; The very first setup frame
fails to complete.  All subsequent setup frames succeed.  Including setup
frames sent after an ifconfig down/up.  Utterly bizarre.

Oh yay, cheap chips.

...speaking of the PNIC ... I sent you some mail asking where you got
your PNIC manuals... I have been unable to locate any.  I haven't even
been able to find the correct contact at Lite-On.  Every Lite-On company
I find seems to not have any networking products... *puzzled*  Anyhow, just
wondering if you missed that message...

 > There's at least one that has a cardbus version... darnit, which is
 > is it. Oh: it's the ADMtek. There's an AL982 designed for PCMCIA and
 > cardbus use. Unfortunately, the data sheet for it is not on ADMtek's
 > server, but it's probably the same core as the AL981. In any case, I
 > don't know of any boards that use the AL982. For that matter, I'm not
 > even sure which boards use the AL981: the only cards I have are the
 > samples that ADMtek sent me, and I haven't seen any board resellers
 > claiming to use it.

I'd like to get more info from you about these contacts... I have one each of:

	* PNIC board (NetGear variety)
	* Macronix board ('15 variety, SOHO)
	* Winbond board (Unicom thingie)

...and am looking to get ahold of more in order to get this merged driver
hammered out.

 > If you can actually get it all to work and retain some portion of your
 > sanity, I'll be mighty impressed.

...you could argue that if I'm even trying at all, I don't have any sanity
to begin with :-)

        -- Jason R. Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 20:21:34 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: Geoff Rehmet <geoffr@is.co.za>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, markm@iafrica.com, jlemon@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: TCP sequence numbers
In-Reply-To: <E3453EC6C52ED3118E7E0090275CD47CFFB0F3@isjhbex.is.co.za>
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On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Geoff Rehmet wrote:

> > How do OpenBSD do it?
>
> They use arc4random(), to add a random increment.

And you do ISN = C + f(state) where C is a 250KHz counter and f is your
cut-down MD5? And state = {random secret, src addr, src port, dst addr,
dst port, ?}

I haven't had time to read through the patch yet, I'm sorry.

> > Just curious whether you have a reference for doing this or
> > whether it was an ad-hoc change. Playing with cryptographic
> > algorithms isn't usually a good idea unless you're sure, as I'm
> > sure you know.
>
> Yup - dead right.  The requirements in this instance are however
> also slightly different to what you normally use a cryptographic
> hash for.  I want to let the code be picked at a bit before
> it goes into the tree though.

What speed difference is there between MD5 and your cut-down version? Have
you benchmarked performance differences in general?

I'm also still curious about your rationale/references for modifying MD5
in that way.

The other comment I have is that this should probably be hidden behind a
sysctl for configurability and to appease folks who might not like it.

> > I'd expect Yarrow to be (perhaps quite a bit) slower than our existing
> > PRNG - it's a more conservative design and uses primitives 
> > like SHA-1 (for
> > yarrow-160). I don't know how much of an impact this would be for
> > network performance.
> 
> If it is only used to generate a secret every 5 minutes, that should
> not be a problem.

Sounds reasonable.

Kris



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 20:25:32 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 20:25:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: Geoff Rehmet <geoffr@is.co.za>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, markm@iafrica.com, jlemon@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: TCP sequence numbers
In-Reply-To: <E3453EC6C52ED3118E7E0090275CD47CFFB0F3@isjhbex.is.co.za>
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On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Geoff Rehmet wrote:

> > I'd expect Yarrow to be (perhaps quite a bit) slower than our existing
> > PRNG - it's a more conservative design and uses primitives 
> > like SHA-1 (for
> > yarrow-160). I don't know how much of an impact this would be for
> > network performance.
> 
> If it is only used to generate a secret every 5 minutes, that should not
> be a problem.

Hrm. RFC 1948 seems to warn against changing the secret while "live". It's
not immediately obvious to me why this is so.

Kris



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 22:18:51 1999
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this is a test to see, please ignore


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 22:23:59 1999
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To: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: MAC takeover 
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 23:21:44 -0600
From: David Sharp <djs@secure.net>
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The i82559 (fxp) hardware supports it.  I imagine most previous 
versions of the chipset are also capable.  For the software,
add an ioctl to fxp_ether_ioctl that changes the 
sc->arpcom.ac_enaddr to your new MAC address and calls
fxp_init(sc).  Add your new ioctl to ifconfig and you should be done.

In message <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909021314540.88559-100000@freja.webgiro.com>, Andrze
j Bialecki writes:
>Hi,
>
>IIRC some time ago there was a vivid discussion about ability to
>change/set MAC address of Ethernet cards. I'm faced with similar problem
>right now: when building high-availability configuration it would be very
>handy to do MAC takeover instead of IP takeover. So, my questions follow:
>
>* which cards support it (that have FreeBSD drivers of course)?
>
>* is there some way to set it (I couldn't find any code in the ifconfig
>nor in the kernel)?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Andrzej Bialecki
>
>//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
>// -------------------------------------------------------------------
>// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
>// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 22:44:18 1999
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Subject: Re: 3.2-s nfsv3/udp server daily panic
In-Reply-To: <199908301625.JAA15225@apollo.backplane.com> from Matthew Dillon at "Aug 30, 1999  9:25: 9 am"
To: dillon@apollo.backplane.com (Matthew Dillon)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 09:41:37 +0400 (MSD)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> :
> :cvsuped 18 aug 1999 00:35 MSD
> :
>=20
>     I would definitely update it, but that may not be your problem.
>=20
>     If you could email your mount setup (df output) and your kernel
>     configuration (dmesg output) I would appreciate it.
>=20
>     If you are running softupdates, try turning it off (but I doubt this
>     is the problem).
>=20
>     This could be a new bug.
>=20
> 					-Matt
> 					Matthew Dillon=20
> 					<dillon@backplane.com>
>=20

after 7 days of work server crash (nad reboot) again ...
then after 20 hr it hangs ... after reset it successfuly reboots,
but when server up - two of five nfs clients hangs simultaniously :(
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

on nfs server the same problem as on the resent panics (mailed before),
server panics while increasing disk activity on exported fs :

# gdb -k kernel.32 vmcore.32
GNU gdb 4.18
Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain condition=
s.
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB.  Type "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"...
IdlePTD 2744320
initial pcb at 227b10
panicstr: page fault
panic messages:
---
Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
fault virtual address   =3D 0xcd97f79e
fault code              =3D supervisor read, page not present
instruction pointer     =3D 0x8:0xc01c1803
stack pointer           =3D 0x10:0xd300ad1c
frame pointer           =3D 0x10:0xd300ada0
code segment            =3D base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                        =3D DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags        =3D interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL =3D 0
current process         =3D 48458 (mail.local.1)
interrupt mask          =3D
trap number             =3D 12
panic: page fault

syncing disks... 60 40 27 11 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 giving up
(da1:ahc1:0:1:0): SYNCHRONIZE CACHE. CDB: 35 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
(da1:ahc1:0:1:0): ILLEGAL REQUEST asc:20,0
(da1:ahc1:0:1:0): Invalid command operation code

dumping to dev 20401, offset 1691306
dump 512 511 510 509 508 507 506 505 504 503 502 501 500 499 498 497 496 49=
5 494 493 492 491 490 489 488 487 486 485 484 483 482 481 480 479 478 477 4=
76 475 474 473 472 471 470 469 468 467 466 465 464 463 462 461 460 459 458 =
457 456 455 454 453 452 451 4=
50 449 448 447 446 445 444 443 442 441 440 439 438 437 436 435 434 433 432 =
431 430 429 428 427 426 425 424 423 422 421 420 419 418 417 416 415 414 413=
 412 411 410 409 408 407 406 405 404 403 402 401 400 399 398 397 396 395 39=
4 393 392 391 390 389 388 387=
 386 385 384 383 382 381 380 379 378 377 376 375 374 373 372 371 370 369 36=
8 367 366 365 364 363 362 361 360 359 358 357 356 355 354 353 352 351 350 3=
49 348 347 346 345 344 343 342 341 340 339 338 337 336 335 334 333 332 331 =
330 329 328 327 326 325 324 3=
23 322 321 320 319 318 317 316 315 314 313 312 311 310 309 308 307 306 305 =
304 303 302 301 300 299 298 297 296 295 294 293 292 291 290 289 288 287 286=
 285 284 283 282 281 280 279 278 277 276 275 274 273 272 271 270 269 268 26=
7 266 265 264 263 262 261 260=
 259 258 257 256 255 254 253 252 251 250 249 248 247 246 245 244 243 242 24=
1 240 239 238 237 236 235 234 233 232 231 230 229 228 227 226 225 224 223 2=
22 221 220 219 218 217 216 215 214 213 212 211 210 209 208 207 206 205 204 =
203 202 201 200 199 198 197 1=
96 195 194 193 192 191 190 189 188 187 186 185 184 183 182 181 180 179 178 =
177 176 175 174 173 172 171 170 169 168 167 166 165 164 163 162 161 160 159=
 158 157 156 155 154 153 152 151 150 149 148 147 146 145 144 143 142 141 14=
0 139 138 137 136 135 134 133=
 132 131 130 129 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 11=
4 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94=
 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69=
 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 5=
9 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 3=
4 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9=
 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
---
#0  boot (howto=3D256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:285
285                     dumppcb.pcb_cr3 =3D rcr3();
(kgdb) back
#0  boot (howto=3D256) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:285
#1  0xc013cf39 in panic (fmt=3D0xc020bcdb "page fault")
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:446
#2  0xc01ec2da in trap_fatal (frame=3D0xd300ace0, eva=3D3449288606)
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:942
#3  0xc01ebf93 in trap_pfault (frame=3D0xd300ace0, usermode=3D0, eva=3D3449=
288606)
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:835
#4  0xc01ebbf2 in trap (frame=3D{tf_es =3D 16, tf_ds =3D -1023082480,
      tf_edi =3D 34714, tf_esi =3D -1023032832, tf_ebp =3D -754930272,
      tf_isp =3D -754930424, tf_ebx =3D -845678694, tf_edx =3D -848012552,
      tf_ecx =3D 8191, tf_eax =3D 190362, tf_trapno =3D 12, tf_err =3D 0,
      tf_eip =3D -1071900669, tf_cs =3D 8, tf_eflags =3D 66182, tf_esp =3D =
-756928448,
      tf_ss =3D -754929956}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:437
#5  0xc01c1803 in ufs_lookup (ap=3D0xd300addc) at ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_lookup.=
c:238
#6  0xc01c6615 in ufs_vnoperate (ap=3D0xd300addc)
    at ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:2299
#7  0xc015bb48 in vfs_cache_lookup (ap=3D0xd300ae38) at vnode_if.h:55
#8  0xc01c6615 in ufs_vnoperate (ap=3D0xd300ae38)
    at ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:2299
#9  0xc015e01d in lookup (ndp=3D0xd300aeb8) at vnode_if.h:31
#10 0xc015daf0 in namei (ndp=3D0xd300aeb8) at ../../kern/vfs_lookup.c:152
#11 0xc01631bc in stat (p=3D0xd2f45f20, uap=3D0xd300af94)
    at ../../kern/vfs_syscalls.c:1614
---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
#12 0xc01ec523 in syscall (frame=3D{tf_es =3D 39, tf_ds =3D 39,
      tf_edi =3D -1077955216, tf_esi =3D -1077964836, tf_ebp =3D -107794492=
8,
      tf_isp =3D -754929692, tf_ebx =3D 672002236, tf_edx =3D 26, tf_ecx =
=3D 0,
      tf_eax =3D 188, tf_trapno =3D 12, tf_err =3D 2, tf_eip =3D 671737064,
      tf_cs =3D 31, tf_eflags =3D 582, tf_esp =3D -1077965016, tf_ss =3D 39=
})
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:1100
#13 0xc01e36bc in Xint0x80_syscall ()
#14 0x804dbac in ?? ()
#15 0x80494d1 in ?? ()
(kgdb)



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 23:34:22 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from thomas.uhrfelt@plymovent.se)
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From: "Thomas Uhrfelt" <thomas.uhrfelt@plymovent.se>
To: <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: "Kelly Yancey" <kbyanc@alcnet.com>
Subject: Hardware Database (was: RE: Dell PERC LVD card (Power Edge Raid Controller))
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:33:25 +0200
Message-ID: <LOBBJNJHKFOGCKJFKEKBIEBMCIAA.thomas.uhrfelt@plymovent.se>
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It would be excellent if you had the time/resources to start such a site. I
hope such a project can boost the development of new devicedrivers for
FreeBSD, I always donate unneeded stuff to various computerclubs in my
hometown. But if I knew that it could do some good to the FreeBSD project I
would gladly send these hardware gadgets to a willing programmer.

Thomas Uhrfelt

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly Yancey [mailto:kbyanc@alcnet.com]
> Sent: den 7 september 1999 16:47
> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> Cc: thomas.uhrfelt@plymovent.se
> Subject: RE: Dell PERC LVD card (Power Edge Raid Controller)
>
>
>
>   This is indeed a good idea. If nobody else has stepped up to the
> challenge, I will try to have such a site up by the end of the week (Well,
> let's make it Sunday...gives me the weekend to work on it too :) ). I'll
> keep everyone posted.
>
>   Kelly
>  ~kbyanc@posi.net~
>   FreeBSD - The Power To Serve - http://www.freebsd.org/
>   Join Team FreeBSD - http://www.posi.net/freebsd/Team-FreeBSD/
>
>  "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of
>   folly is to fill the world with fools." - Herbert Spencer
>
>
> > An excellent initiative!
> >
> > I think there are many administrators/system managers out there with a
> huge
> > stack of unused goods lying on the shelves to no use at all.
> Perhaps there
> > should be a database where interested devicedriver programmers
> could post
> > their needs and sysadminds could post their unneeded hardware
> on. Perhaps
> in
> > that way we could speed up the development of HW drivers for
> FreeBSD? Any
> > thoughts on this one?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Geoff
> Buckingham
> > > Sent: den 3 september 1999 10:08
> > > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> > > Subject: Dell PERC LVD card (Power Edge Raid Controller)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Through a mis-order I have aquired a PERC card (Actually an AMI
> megaRAID)
> > > which I am happy to make available to anyone genuinly interested
> > > in working
> > > on a driver (This is the PCI RAID card that goes into Dells Power
> > > Edge servers
> > > if ordered in a RAID configuration)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Geoff Buckingham
> > > Systems Manager
> > > Netlink Internet Services
> > >
> > >
>
>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 23:52:13 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:50:22 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
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Reply-To: Nick Hibma <nick.hibma@jrc.it>
To: Doug Ambrisko <ambrisko@whistle.com>
Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
In-Reply-To: <199909072255.PAA10809@whistle.com>
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 > | PCI and CardBus to USB. Any one having seen a ISA or PCMCIA variant,
 > | please let me know.
 > 
 > I thought I saw a PCMCIA -> USB at Fry's.

Hm, I had a good look around, but couldn't find one. If you happen to
end up at Fry's one day, let me know if you can find the name of the
brand. 

Cheers,

Nick




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue Sep  7 23:57:28 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 08:57:29 +0200 (CEST)
From: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
To: David Sharp <djs@secure.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: High Availability (Re: MAC takeover )
In-Reply-To: <199909080521.XAA08585@armahn.secure.net>
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On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, David Sharp wrote:

> 
> The i82559 (fxp) hardware supports it.  I imagine most previous 
> versions of the chipset are also capable.  For the software,
> add an ioctl to fxp_ether_ioctl that changes the 
> fxp_init(sc).  Add your new ioctl to ifconfig and you should be done.

Thanks a lot! That's indeed a good news - as it happens I have quite a few
fxp on the shelves here...

Another issue: I was recently involved in a project which required HA
solutions (that's why I asked]. I gathered a lot of ideas and materials
(and perhaps some code if that company agrees to release it). Is ther
someone else here who is interested in these issues, and using FreeBSD for
that? We could start some info pages, howto's, and perhaps a mailing
list...

Andrzej Bialecki

//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------
// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  0:19:40 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 715C914BEA
	for <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>; Wed,  8 Sep 1999 00:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
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          id <aa15279@salmon>; 8 Sep 1999 08:18:43 +0100 (BST)
To: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Subject: Re: STABLE kern/13546: Too-verbose output from PCI probe at bootup 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Sep 1999 12:21:26 PDT."
             <7495.936732086@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> 
X-Request-Do: 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:18:43 +0100
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> >The code which figures out the bushigh stuff for your machine
> >probably needs a similar kludge, unless someone can say for certain
> >that it isn't harful for the SMP case.
> 
> Probably not worth the effort, since for this system at least, SMP works
> just fine after probing for 253 non-existent PCI buses.  The "if
> (bootverbose)" just keeps it from blowing the dmesg buffer at bootup.

It seemmed to work fine for us too, but if there is a possibility
of some problem it's probably worth working around "properly". It
only takes about 4 lines of code. (Unless someone can say this
is definitely harmless in the SMP case)

> (The CURRENT code doesn't even look for this "bushigh" value nor display
> the "Probing" message.)

All the more reason to get it right in STABLE.

	David.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  0:24:10 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 03:23:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike Nowlin <mike@argos.org>
To: Andrzej Bialecki <abial@webgiro.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: High Availability (Re: MAC takeover )
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> Another issue: I was recently involved in a project which required HA
> solutions (that's why I asked]. I gathered a lot of ideas and materials
> (and perhaps some code if that company agrees to release it). Is ther
> someone else here who is interested in these issues, and using FreeBSD for
> that? We could start some info pages, howto's, and perhaps a mailing
> list...

Definitely...  I use FreeBSD for critical medical applications (no life
support equipment, though.. :) )  Although the main DB server is running
on an Alpha under DEC Unix (for legal reasons, not by choice), the rest of
the network is "powered by FreeBSD".  Failures are rare, but when they
happen, my pager goes off immediately, and I get to drop whatever I'm
doing and head off to work.  HA capabilities like this would really help
out -- most of the software running is duplicated between machines so one
box can take over another's workload if necessary, but it's a manual job
doing all the switching... (IP aliasing, NATD/IPFW changes, etc. just to
move DNS and printing to another box, for example.)  Although our
switching equipment has an "understanding" of path redundancy and other HA
techniques, most of the other boxes don't...  

I suppose the first thing I'd make use of would be the ability to drop two
ethernet cards (fxp, probably) into each machine -- if one of them croaks
("network cable yanked -- you mean I can't plug a phone into this
jack???" is the most frequent problem), the other one would be brought
online automatically -- preferrably with the same ethernet address to
avoid confusing the rest of the network.

--mike




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  5:26:31 1999
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Mike Nowlin wrote:
> 
> > Another issue: I was recently involved in a project which required HA
> > solutions (that's why I asked]. I gathered a lot of ideas and materials
> > (and perhaps some code if that company agrees to release it). Is ther
> > someone else here who is interested in these issues, and using FreeBSD for
> > that? We could start some info pages, howto's, and perhaps a mailing
> > list...
> 
> Definitely...  

... the same situation here.

And I think that a lot of ISP would at appreciate
at least some basic HA support in FreeBSD.

	Milon
--
papezik@pvt.net, but speaking on my own.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  6:14:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:12:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Mikael Hybsch <micke@securitydynamics.com>
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Reply-To: Mikael Hybsch <micke@dynas.se>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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I have been running a 3.2-STABLE from around June 1st on my
Asus P2B-D with 2 400MHz PII CPUs (128MB memory) without any problems.

Yesterday I cvsup'ed RELENG_3 and now SMP doesn't work anymore.
Halfway through /etc/rc some severe memory corruption seems to occur
as all new processes core dumps immediately on signal 11. Finally the
machine locks up and the reset button it the only way out.
Same kernel without SMP works fine.

Looking through the commitlogs, I found the two entries below that
could be related. So I checked out a RELENG_3 src/sys from
1999/08/29, but that kernel failes in the same way.
Tonight I will try to compile and run an 
older RELENG_3 GENERIC kernel.

Does anyone have any idea of what's causing this problem?
Is there some driver that doesn't work with SMP?



msmith      1999/08/30 18:19:33 PDT
  MFC: Intel 686 and AMD K6/2 memory range attribute support.  This merge
  brings all of the memory range attribute support from -current back to
  -stable, as requested by a number of folks.

msmith      1999/09/02 16:57:06 PDT
  Bring back the rest of the changes required to make memory range support
  work on SMP systems.  Tested by various folks on the -stable list,
  thanks for their patience and support.

-- 
 Mikael Hybsch                        Email: micke@securitydynamics.com
 Security Dynamics AB                 Phone: +46-8-7250900
 Box 10704			      Fax:   +46-8-6494970
 S-121 29 STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  7:12:35 1999
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From: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199909081412.KAA07889@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:12:51 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199909080316.UAA21624@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Sep 7, 99 08:16:13 pm
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Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Jason Thorpe 
had to walk into mine and say:
 
>  > I'm assuming you actually have a Winbond card. If you do, try this for
> 
> Yah, some Unicom card, I think.
> 
>  > me: connect the Winbond to a link partner who's media settings you can
> 
> [ . . . snip . . . ]
> 
>  > Winbond that if I changed the link partner's speed settings, it would
>  > start DMAing all kinds of crap into the host's memory. Furthermore, I
>  > think it ignores the RX buffer lengths specified in the receive descriptor
>  > ring and trashes various chunks of memory that it shouldn't, leading to
>  > a crash. Given that I never observed this behavior with any of the other
>  > tulip clones using similar code, I was pretty sure this was a chip bug and
>  > not some horrible coding error that I had made somewhere.
> 
> Yes, I have seen exactly this.  I could only get it to happen if I changed
> the Winbond's link partner from 10 -> 100 while the Winbond was still in 10.

That sounds right.
 
> I see the TDSTAT_Rx_FS and TDSTAT_Rx_LS bits cleared in the descriptor,
> as well.  When I see this condition occur, I attempt to reset the chip.
> This does NOT help this condition on the Winbond.  It's thorougly wedged.
> 
> Oh yay, cheap chips.
> 
>  > I saw this with at least three separate Winbond cards and I tried my
>  > best to detect the condition and smack the chip upside the head to make
>  > it stop, but I'd be interested to see somebody else duplicate the problem
>  > and give me their take on it.
> 
> Were you ever able to smack it and make it stop?  :-)

Well, yes, but I made some assumptions in order to do it. The assumption
is that whatever the current speed setting is now, the link partner's
speed setting is exactly opposite. So if I detect the condition, I first
toggle the speed setting (if it's IFM_10_T, make it IFM_100_TX and vice-
versa), then do a reset, then re-init the chip.

However, the main problem is keeping the chip from zapping memory that it
doesn't own. Normally I use mbuf cluster buffers in the receive ring, but
I would only tell the chip that the buffer was 1536 bytes long instead of
2048. But again, it seemed like the chip was DMAing much more data than
it should have been and overruning the whole cluster. Since I needed to
copy received packets in order to fix up the alignment anyway, I stopped
using mbuf clusters and instead allocated my own 4K receive buffers and
told the chip to DMA into those, on the theory that it may have been
barfing up the entire contents of its FIFO memory which was more than
2048 bytes. Sure, most of the time you waste a lot of those 4K blocks,
but at least when the chip freaks out it doesn't trash any memory that
you don't know about.

The driver in -current has code that swaps the speed setting and the
extra large buffers; originally I just tried to reset the chip and
swap the speed as fast as possible, but this proved not to work too
well once I started using the miibus sublayer so I had to revisit the
whole thing and come up with a better solution.

>  > Also, just out of curiosity, have you ever observed the PNIC receiver
>  > bug that gave me so many fits?
> 
> I observed it briefly back when there were still some pretty basic bugs
> in the driver, which have since been squashed.  I haven't seen it since.
> I'm aware of the nature of the problem and your work-around.  I'm hoping
> I don't need to implement it :-)

Unfortunately, I'm still not sure how to trigger it reliably so I can't
tell you exactly where or when you might see it.
 
> I have seen some pretty awful problems with the PNIC, tho.  The DMA engine
> is a piece of crap.  On a 500MHz AlphaStation 500, who's PCI bus can surely
> keep up with a cheap fast Ethernet board, the PNIC gets constant DMA underruns
> unless in Store-and-Forward mode, *including the setup frame*.  I have to
> initialize the chip into S-F mode just to get the damn filter programmed :-)
> 
> I also noticed that DMA underruns don't abort the transmit pipe on the PNIC.
> Every DMA underrun on a real packet corresponded to a junk frame hitting
> the wire.  A short frame I could understand... but we're talking even the
> Ethernet header is toast.
> 
> Another interesting problem I've been seeing; The very first setup frame
> fails to complete.  All subsequent setup frames succeed.  Including setup
> frames sent after an ifconfig down/up.  Utterly bizarre.
> 
> Oh yay, cheap chips.

Bleh. My experience with the PNIC shows that it does not handle
multi-fragment transmits very well (i.e. a packet split across multiple
buffers instead of just a single configuous buffer). Lite-On claims
that they get pretty good transmit speed with the PNIC, however I'm
certain they do their measurements using only single buffer transmits.
I typically don't see more than about 80-85Mbps, though others using
the Linux driver (which doesn't use multi-fragment transmits) have
claimed better performance (90-95Mbps). On a whim, I decided one day
to disable the code in pn_encap() that splits the outbound packet up
amount multiple descriptors and just let it copy all packer fragments
into a single buffer -- transmit performance actually got a little
faster.

My biggest problem with this stupid thing now is trying to get to work
on the 486/66 that I'm currently using for testing. It has an old Integrated
Micro Systems PCI bridge and the PNIC seems to have decided not to be
friends with it: the machine tends to freeze up solid whenever the chip
does any DMA, including just loading the setup frame.

> ...speaking of the PNIC ... I sent you some mail asking where you got
> your PNIC manuals... I have been unable to locate any.  I haven't even
> been able to find the correct contact at Lite-On.  Every Lite-On company
> I find seems to not have any networking products... *puzzled*  Anyhow, just
> wondering if you missed that message...

Dammit, I must have. I'm very sorry. Their domain name is not Lite-On; 
I can't remember what it is off the top of my head but you wouldn't be 
able to figure it out unless somebody told it to you. Actually, the
domain I'm thinking of is in Taiwan; I think they have offices in
California too, but most of the e-mail exchanges I've had have been
with people in Taiwan. I have to grope through my e-mail at work to find 
it and send it to you. As for the datasheet, there's a Postscript copy 
lurking at:

http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/PNIC/pnic.ps.gz

Since I never signed an NDA, I don't feel compelled to keep the thing
a secret. :) Originally I just asked somebody at Lite-On for it; it took
a couple days and a little arm twisting but I finally got it. Also, I
spoke to LinkSys and they provided me with a datasheet too, but it was
basically a very cut-down version of the Lite-On one -- all of the register
info and very little else.

I've also got a Winbond datasheet at:

http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/Winbond/winbond.ps.gz

The originals of both these documents were in M$ Turd format. :)
 
>  > There's at least one that has a cardbus version... darnit, which is
>  > is it. Oh: it's the ADMtek. There's an AL982 designed for PCMCIA and
>  > cardbus use. Unfortunately, the data sheet for it is not on ADMtek's
>  > server, but it's probably the same core as the AL981. In any case, I
>  > don't know of any boards that use the AL982. For that matter, I'm not
>  > even sure which boards use the AL981: the only cards I have are the
>  > samples that ADMtek sent me, and I haven't seen any board resellers
>  > claiming to use it.
> 
> I'd like to get more info from you about these contacts... I have one each of:
> 
> 	* PNIC board (NetGear variety)
> 	* Macronix board ('15 variety, SOHO)
> 	* Winbond board (Unicom thingie)
> 
> ...and am looking to get ahold of more in order to get this merged driver
> hammered out.

All of the Winbond cards are essentially the same so the one you have
should be enough -- mine is from a company called Trendware. The PNIC
is a bit tougher to deal with because there are a couple of revisions:
the original LinkSys PNIC cards use the 82c168 and the internal busted
NWAY support (i.e. no MII transceiver). For these you have to fiddle
with the GPIO bits to flip the relay on the card (yes, a relay) in order
to select the right media. The trouble is LinkSys doesn't sell them
anymore: the later cards use the 82c169, and now they've gone to the
PNIC II. I had some 82c168 cards donated by FreeBSD users. I can part 
with one of them if you can't find one anywhere. As for the Macronix, 
ideally you need one each of the 98713, 98713A and 98715A. The 98713 
pretends that its NWAY support is handled via the MII bits in the serial 
I/O register but the 98713A uses the other NWAY registers. Also, if you 
look at the application notes from Macronix, they mention the "magic 
numbers" you need to program into CSR15 (I think). The original 98713 
needs one setting while the others require another setting. Macronix 
doesn't say what the magic values really do, so I just program them in 
and cross my fingers. (I'm considering adding some code to provide a fake 
MII interface to the 98713A and friends so that I can use the miibus code
to control the media selection so that I can convert the whole driver
to use the miibus layer.)

Also, the PNIC II (LC82c115) is actually a Macronix chip with wake
on lan and only a 128-bit multicast hash table. The LinkSys LNE100TX v2.0
card that I have and the sample 98715A card look almost identical.
If you have a 98715A datasheet handy, you can use that as a reference
when programming this chip; just remember about the smaller hash table.
I'll stick a copy of my PNIC II datasheet at www.freebsd.org for you
a little later -- I originally got my copy from LinkSys.

As for ADMtek, I originally went looking at www.admtek.com.tw and just 
e-mailed one of the contacts that they list asking where I could buy a 
board in the U.S., since I already had the datasheet (the AL981 sheet is 
on their server). They turned out to be really eager to help me and sent 
me two cards directly. Again, I have to grope through my back e-mail to 
find the name of the guy I spoke too, but you can easily get in touch
with them using the contact info on their site.

Cnet makes a couple of cards using clone tulip chips: the Pro110 and 120
series. One of them uses the ASIX chip and the others use Macronix. I've
been told you can sometimes find these at Fry's. Jaton Corporation makes
a board called the Jaton XpressNet what uses the Davicom DM9102. This
is another chip with a pretty cruddy DMA engine.

-Bill

-- 
=============================================================================
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
=============================================================================
 "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness"
=============================================================================


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  8:49:45 1999
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To: Multiple recipients of list OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L <OPENGL-GAMEDEV-L@fatcity.com>
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From: gamedev@oddhack.engr.sgi.com (Jon Leech)
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa
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    We've had a group (including representatives from LSB, Mesa, Metro
Link, NVIDIA, PTC, Precision Insight, SGI, XFree86, and Xi Graphics)
working on a proposal for standardizing X11 OpenGL/Mesa ABI and SDK
issues on Linux. The purpose is to allow applications to build against
any implementation following this standard and the resulting binaries to
run against any other implementation; this interoperability will be
increasingly important as the amount of 3D activity on Linux grows and
the variety of drivers increases even further.

    The "0.9" draft of the proposal can be found at

	http://reality.sgi.com/opengl/linux/linuxbase.html

    A mailing list has been created for further discussion and
finalization of this proposal. We're unable to follow discussions in all
the forums where this announcement is being made, so if you want to have
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    Jon Leech (For the Linux/OpenGL Base working group)
    SGI
----- 
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-- 
  The views expressed above are not those of PGS Tensor.

    "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  9:24:53 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 12:10:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
Subject: The usage of MNT_RELOAD
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The flag MNT_RELOAD is not documented in mount manpages.  From the source
code, I find that it is always used along with MNT_UPDATE which can be
speficied by user (-u option).  Can anyone explain the usage of MNT_RELOAD
for me?  It seems not to be used normally.

Any help is appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------
Zhihui Zhang.  Please visit http://www.freebsd.org
--------------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  9:39:14 1999
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From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: The usage of MNT_RELOAD
In-reply-to: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990908114318.21415A-100000@sol.cs.binghamton.edu>
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:
> 
> The flag MNT_RELOAD is not documented in mount manpages.  From the source
> code, I find that it is always used along with MNT_UPDATE which can be
> speficied by user (-u option).  Can anyone explain the usage of MNT_RELOAD
> for me?  It seems not to be used normally.

   It looks like it 'reloads' the file system when you change the
mount flags, e.g. changing a synchronous file system to an
asynchronous file system, without really un-mounting it.

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|Base 8 is just like base 10, if you are missing two fingers.  - Tom Lehrer
`--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8  9:45: 5 1999
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From: Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>
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To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
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> The flag MNT_RELOAD is not documented in mount manpages.  From the source
> code, I find that it is always used along with MNT_UPDATE which can be
> speficied by user (-u option).  Can anyone explain the usage of MNT_RELOAD
> for me?  It seems not to be used normally.
> 
> Any help is appreciated.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> Zhihui Zhang.  Please visit http://www.freebsd.org
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
It is created almost exclusively for fsck (and similar programs) to update
the in core image of the superblock (of / in single user mode) after the
on disk version has been modified.

-lq


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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: panic.. 3.2-STABLE-OLD...
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 12:44:54 -0400
From: "David E. Cross" <crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Well, it has been a long time since I have needed to write an email with that
tagline.  Our primary NFS server had been up for almost 2 months with no
panics.  We did need to reboot it for a network change, but it was up for 28
days at that point.  Anyway.... here are the details:

dev = 0x20014, block = 2096, fs = /exports/home3
panic: ffs_blkfree: freeing free block
#0  0xc014b6cb in boot ()
#1  0xc014b950 in at_shutdown ()
#2  0xc01d50ef in ffs_blkfree ()
#3  0xc01d992c in indir_trunc ()
#4  0xc01d9688 in handle_workitem_freeblocks ()
#5  0xc01d7c28 in softdep_process_worklist ()
#6  0xc016f9b4 in sched_sync ()
#7  0xc013e56a in kproc_start ()
#8  0xc020328a in fork_trampoline ()

  UID   PID  PPID CPU PRI NI   VSZ  RSS WCHAN  STAT  TT       TIME COMMAND
    0     0     0   0 -18  0     0    0 sched  DLs   ??    0:00.00  (swapper)
    0     1     0   0  10  0   496    0 wait   Is    ??    0:00.00  (init)
    0     2     0   0 -18  0     0    0 -      RL    ??    0:00.00  (pagedaemon
    0     3     0   0  18  0     0    0 psleep DL    ??    0:00.00  (vmdaemon)
    0     4     0 272  -6  0     0    0 -      RL    ??    0:00.00  (syncer)
    0    42     1   0  10  0 262900    0 mfsidl ILs   ??    0:00.00  (mount_mfs)
    0   140     1   0   2  0   816    0 -      Rs    ??    0:00.00  (syslogd)
    0   150     1  14   2 -12  1048    0 -      R<s   ??    0:00.00  (xntpd)
    1   155     1   0   2  0   836    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (portmap)
    0   158     1   0   2  0  1548    0 -      Rs    ??    0:00.00  (ypserv)
    0   163     1   0   2  0   804    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (ypbind)
    0   176     1   0   2  0   872    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (mountd)
    0   179     1   0   2  0   316    0 accept Is    ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   181   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   182   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   183   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   184   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   185   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   186   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   187   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   188   179   0   2  0   296    0 -      R     ??    0:00.00  (nfsd)
    0   191     1   0   2  0 262968    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (rpc.statd)
    0   196     1   0  10  0   208    0 nfsidl I     ??    0:00.00  (nfsiod)
    0   197     1   0  10  0   208    0 nfsidl I     ??    0:00.00  (nfsiod)
    0   198     1   0  10  0   208    0 nfsidl I     ??    0:00.00  (nfsiod)
    0   199     1  20  10  0   208    0 nfsidl I     ??    0:00.00  (nfsiod)
    0   205     1   0   2  0  1596    0 select Ss    ??    0:00.00  (amd)
    0   233     1   0   2  0   888    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (inetd)
    0   236     1   4  10  0   984    0 nanslp Is    ??    0:00.00  (cron)
    0   337     1   0   2  0  1276    0 select Is    ??    0:00.00  (sshd2)
    0   390   233   0   2  0  1452    0 -      Rs    ??    0:00.00  (nmbd)
    0 71340   233   0   2  0  3080    0 -      Rs    ??    0:00.00  (smbd)
    0 76993   337   0   2  0  1376    0 select I     ??    0:00.00  (sshd2)
    0 77721   337   0   2  0  1376    0 select I     ??    0:00.00  (sshd2)
 2717 77002 76993   0   3  0  1484    0 ttyin  Is+   p0    0:00.00  (bash)
    0 77008 77002   0  28  0  1488    0 -      T     p0    0:00.00  (bash)
 2717 77722 77721   0   3  0  1484    0 ttyin  Is+   p1    0:00.00  (bash)
    0 77727 77722   0  28  0  1488    0 -      T     p1    0:00.00  (bash)
    0   378     1   0   3  0   824    0 ttyin  Is+   v0    0:00.00  (getty)
    0   379     1   0   3  0   824    0 ttyin  Is+   v1    0:00.00  (getty)
    0   380     1   0   3  0   824    0 ttyin  Is+   v2    0:00.00  (getty)
    0   377     1   0   3  0   824    0 ttyin  Is+   d0    0:00.00  (getty)

FreeBSD stagger.cs.rpi.edu 3.2-STABLE FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE #0: Fri Jul 30 23:32:30 EDT 1999     root@phoenix.cs.rpi.edu:/usr/src/sys/compile/STAGGER  i386

And we are running with softupdates.

Additional details can be provided, this is all I can think of at the moment.

--
David Cross                               | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu 
Systems Administrator/Research Programmer | Web: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd 
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute,         | Ph: 518.276.2860            
Department of Computer Science            | Fax: 518.276.4033
I speak only for myself.                  | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:18:11 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Message-Id: <199909072217.AAA00685@yedi.iaf.nl>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
In-Reply-To: <199909072136.OAA18714@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Sep 7, 1999  2:36: 0 pm"
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:17:52 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands
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As Jason Thorpe wrote ...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999 03:11:24 -0400 (EDT) 
>  Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> wrote:
> 
>  > The SiS 900 only has one combined status/control word in its 
>  > descriptor structure (some of the bits mean different things depending 
>  > on whether the descriptors are in the RX ring or TX ring) instead of a 
>  > separate status and control word. The descriptors are also only 3 
>  > longwords in size.
...
> BTW, you forgot EISA (DE-425) ... when I finish all the clone support

There was also an DE-422 EISA card. Dunno if they are different.

Do you have/want one? I could try to get you one. EISA is dead of course,
but older machines tend to have EISA slots to spare, and PCI in short
supply.

Wilko

-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:33:43 1999
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:03:26 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Message-ID: <37D696DE.572EDD1C@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
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Subject: 32+ signals and library versions
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Hi,

Another issue when sigset_t changes is the version numbers of shared
libraries. Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
need a version bump. I assume that all others automaticly also need a
version bump then. Am I correct in this assumption?

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:38:11 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from mongoose.slip.net (mongoose.slip.net [207.171.193.14])
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:37:21 -0700
To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Addr.com Web Hosting" <admin@addr.com>
Subject: Fequent panics in FreeBSD 3.3-RC
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi,

I last night I have upgraded a system to the latest stable, and have 
already received two of these panics:

uname -a reads
FreeBSD addr3.addr.com 3.3-RC FreeBSD 3.3-RC #0: Tue Sep  7 21:57:07 GMT 1999
   root@addr3.addr.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/ADDRKERN  i386

the panic reads:
Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 01000000
fault virtual address   = 0xc4e7f08c
fault code              = supervisor write, page not present
instruction pointer     = 0x8:0xc025f47a
stack pointer           = 0x10:0xd2ed2f0c
frame pointer           = 0x10:0xd2ed2f1c
code segment            = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                         = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags        = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process         = 12498 (httpd)
interrupt mask          = net tty bio cam  <- SMP: XXX
trap number             = 12
panic: page fault
mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 01000000
boot() called on cpu#1

nm /kernel for that area shows:

c025f314 T pmap_page_exists
c025f30c T pmap_pageable
c025f3a4 T pmap_remove_pages
c025f4e0 t pmap_testbit

The server is a dual PentiumIII-450 with 512 MB of ram and DPT raid 
controller. Max users is set at 256 (I don't know about this version, but 
on previous versions setting it higher caused constant panics). It usually 
runs at load average of about 2, serving apache/sendmail/telnet/ftpd/ipop3d 
as well as a little bit of NFS data for local updates and a completely idle 
NFS client.
I am unable to trace the panic to any particular event, the system can run 
high load with no problems and one of the panics was in the evening when 
the system was running at only 0.5 load average.
If you need any more info I would be glad to provide it. Any help regarding 
this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,
Anthony Bourov



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:44:15 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles536.castles.com [208.214.165.100])
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	(envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com)
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To: "Addr.com Web Hosting" <admin@addr.com>
Cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Fequent panics in FreeBSD 3.3-RC 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:37:21 PDT."
             <4.2.0.58.19990908102523.024fe2a0@mail3.addr.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:36:06 -0700
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> Hi,
> 
> I last night I have upgraded a system to the latest stable, and have 
> already received two of these panics:

Do you have APM enabled on this system, even just in the BIOS?

> uname -a reads
> FreeBSD addr3.addr.com 3.3-RC FreeBSD 3.3-RC #0: Tue Sep  7 21:57:07 GMT 1999
>    root@addr3.addr.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/ADDRKERN  i386
> 
> the panic reads:
> Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
> mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 01000000
> fault virtual address   = 0xc4e7f08c
> fault code              = supervisor write, page not present
> instruction pointer     = 0x8:0xc025f47a
> stack pointer           = 0x10:0xd2ed2f0c
> frame pointer           = 0x10:0xd2ed2f1c
> code segment            = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
>                          = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
> processor eflags        = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
> current process         = 12498 (httpd)
> interrupt mask          = net tty bio cam  <- SMP: XXX
> trap number             = 12
> panic: page fault
> mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 01000000
> boot() called on cpu#1
> 
> nm /kernel for that area shows:
> 
> c025f314 T pmap_page_exists
> c025f30c T pmap_pageable
> c025f3a4 T pmap_remove_pages
> c025f4e0 t pmap_testbit
> 
> The server is a dual PentiumIII-450 with 512 MB of ram and DPT raid 
> controller. Max users is set at 256 (I don't know about this version, but 
> on previous versions setting it higher caused constant panics). It usually 
> runs at load average of about 2, serving apache/sendmail/telnet/ftpd/ipop3d 
> as well as a little bit of NFS data for local updates and a completely idle 
> NFS client.
> I am unable to trace the panic to any particular event, the system can run 
> high load with no problems and one of the panics was in the evening when 
> the system was running at only 0.5 load average.
> If you need any more info I would be glad to provide it. Any help regarding 
> this problem would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Anthony Bourov
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:47:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from trooper.velocet.ca (trooper.velocet.net [216.126.82.226])
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From: David Gilbert <dgilbert@velocet.ca>
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:46:18 -0400 (EDT)
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Superblock.
X-Mailer: VM 6.71 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs  Lucid
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So... I lost my partition table.  I'm willing to spend a little time
on this.  Is there a byte sequence that I might recognise in a
superblock or at the start of a partition?  I know this isn't an easy
task, but man 5 fs leads me to believe that I might find:

     #define FS_MAGIC        0x011954   /* the fast filesystem magic number */
     #define FS_OKAY         0x7c269d38 /* superblock checksum */

... but I don't see those bytes.  Any hints?

I'm willing to post a description of a solution for the FAQ if I can
find the filesystems.

Dave.

-- 
============================================================================
|David Gilbert, Velocet Communications.       | Two things can only be     |
|Mail:       dgilbert@velocet.net             |  equal if and only if they |
|http://www.velocet.net/~dgilbert             |   are precisely opposite.  |
=========================================================GLO================


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:50: 4 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 13:34:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
To: Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>
Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
In-Reply-To: <199909081644.MAA10197@lor.watermarkgroup.com>
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Luoqi Chen wrote:

> > The flag MNT_RELOAD is not documented in mount manpages.  From the source
> > code, I find that it is always used along with MNT_UPDATE which can be
> > speficied by user (-u option).  Can anyone explain the usage of MNT_RELOAD
> > for me?  It seems not to be used normally.
> > 
> It is created almost exclusively for fsck (and similar programs) to update
> the in core image of the superblock (of / in single user mode) after the
> on disk version has been modified.
> 

Does fsck have to run on a MOUNTED filesystem?  If so, your answer makes
sense to me: if fsck modifies the on-disk copy of the superblock, it does
not have to unmount and then remount the filesystem, it only need to
reload the superlock for disk. 

-Zhihui 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:53: 7 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194])
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To: Stephen Hocking-Senior Programmer PGS Perth <shocking@prth.pgs.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 23:46:54 +0800."
             <199909081546.XAA18427@ariadne.prth.tensor.pgs.com> 
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:49:19 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Nice Idea however wrong operating system. The losers should
have done it  for FreeBSD instead of linux. 

-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 10:57:38 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@nas.nasa.gov>
To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990908133020.21415B-100000@sol.cs.binghamton.edu>
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> 
> Does fsck have to run on a MOUNTED filesystem?  If so, your answer makes
> sense to me: if fsck modifies the on-disk copy of the superblock, it does
> not have to unmount and then remount the filesystem, it only need to
> reload the superlock for disk. 

I think it's more for the case where fsck has to run on a filesystem which
is mounted. It's better to fsck unmounted filesystems, but you don't
always have that option (say you want to fsck the fs with fsck on it :-)

Take care,

Bill



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11: 1:49 1999
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From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Luoqi Chen wrote:
> 
> > It is created almost exclusively for fsck (and similar programs) to update
> > the in core image of the superblock (of / in single user mode) after the
> > on disk version has been modified.
> > 
> 
> Does fsck have to run on a MOUNTED filesystem?  If so, your answer makes
> sense to me: if fsck modifies the on-disk copy of the superblock, it does
> not have to unmount and then remount the filesystem, it only need to
> reload the superlock for disk. 

The root filesystem is mounted when it is fscked, as it is difficult to run
fsck, which lives on the root filesystem, without mounting the root
filesystem.  You shouldn't run fsck on a mounted filesystem, except for
this.  The results are generally not fun.

David Scheidt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11: 8:58 1999
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From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
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To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Luoqi Chen wrote:
> 
> > > The flag MNT_RELOAD is not documented in mount manpages.  From the source
> > > code, I find that it is always used along with MNT_UPDATE which can be
> > > speficied by user (-u option).  Can anyone explain the usage of MNT_RELOAD
> > > for me?  It seems not to be used normally.
> > > 
> > It is created almost exclusively for fsck (and similar programs) to update
> > the in core image of the superblock (of / in single user mode) after the
> > on disk version has been modified.
> > 
> 
> Does fsck have to run on a MOUNTED filesystem?  If so, your answer makes
> sense to me: if fsck modifies the on-disk copy of the superblock, it does
> not have to unmount and then remount the filesystem, it only need to
> reload the superlock for disk. 
> 

Filesystems do not have to be mounted to fsck them (in fact, it is
generally bad to have them mounted rw when fsck'd); however, in order for
the root filesystem to be fsck'd on boot, it must be mounted ro in order
to access the fsck program itself.  After done fsck'ing, it can remount
rw for normal operation, done without actually unmounting the filesystem.

-----
Chris D. Faulhaber <jedgar@fxp.org>  |  All the true gurus I've met never
System/Network Administrator,        |  claimed they were one, and always
Reality Check Information, Inc.      |  pointed to someone better.




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:12: 3 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:11:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <199909081811.LAA88623@apollo.backplane.com>
To: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Cc: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>,
	Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re:  The usage of MNT_RELOAD
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:> Does fsck have to run on a MOUNTED filesystem?  If so, your answer makes
:> sense to me: if fsck modifies the on-disk copy of the superblock, it does
:> not have to unmount and then remount the filesystem, it only need to
:> reload the superlock for disk. 
:
:The root filesystem is mounted when it is fscked, as it is difficult to run
:fsck, which lives on the root filesystem, without mounting the root
:filesystem.  You shouldn't run fsck on a mounted filesystem, except for
:this.  The results are generally not fun.
:
:David Scheidt

    The root filesystem is mounted *READ-ONLY* initially.  fsck is then
    run on all filesystems.  Once fsck is done the root filesystem is 
    remounted R/W and the remaining filesystems are mounted R/W.

    It's relatively safe to run fsck on a filesytem which has been mounted
    read-only.  It is not safe to run fsck on a filesystem which has been
    mounted R/W. 

    It is best, of course, to run fsck only on filesystems that have not
    been mounted but this cannot be done for the root filesystem for obvious
    reasons, hence the read-only mount + fsck + remount R/W.

					-Matt
					Matthew Dillon 
					<dillon@backplane.com>


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:12:31 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 14:10:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel Eischen <eischen@vigrid.com>
Message-Id: <199909081810.OAA13269@pcnet1.pcnet.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, marcel@scc.nl
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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> Another issue when sigset_t changes is the version numbers of shared
> libraries. Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
> need a version bump. I assume that all others automaticly also need a
> version bump then. Am I correct in this assumption?

Libc_r already had a version bump in -current without a subsequent
release.  You do not want to give it another one.

Dan Eischen
eischen@vigrid.com


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:13:49 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:03:26 +0200."
             <37D696DE.572EDD1C@scc.nl> 
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> Another issue when sigset_t changes is the version numbers of shared
> libraries. Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
> need a version bump. 

I suggest to try to avoid the version bump. NetBSD-like way to do it:
Give new implementations another names in object files, so that they 
don't conflict with old implementations, and preserve old 
implementations in the library too. To make the compiler generate calls 
to new implementations, one can add appropriate #define s in .h files. 
For GCC, __asm__ attribute also can be used.

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:21:43 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:20:47 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Mikael Hybsch <micke@securitydynamics.com>
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Reply-To: Mikael Hybsch <micke@dynas.se>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Problem with SMP in 3.3-RC
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, I wrote:

> Yesterday I cvsup'ed RELENG_3 and now SMP doesn't work anymore.
> Halfway through /etc/rc some severe memory corruption seems to occur
> as all new processes core dumps immediately on signal 11. Finally the
> machine locks up and the reset button it the only way out.
> Same kernel without SMP works fine.
> 

The problem turned out to be that apm0 and SMP don't like each other.

A kernel built from sources around Aug 20 works with apm0 and SMP.
After that some apm related checkins were done that seems
to have changed that.

-- 
 Mikael Hybsch                        Email: micke@securitydynamics.com
 Security Dynamics AB                 Phone: +46-8-7250900
 Box 10704			      Fax:   +46-8-6494970
 S-121 29 STOCKHOLM, SWEDEN



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:24:57 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:21:37 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: David Gilbert <dgilbert@velocet.ca>
Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
Message-ID: <19990908212137.B82130@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:46:18PM -0400, David Gilbert wrote:
> So... I lost my partition table.  I'm willing to spend a little time
> on this.  Is there a byte sequence that I might recognise in a
> superblock or at the start of a partition?  I know this isn't an easy
> task, but man 5 fs leads me to believe that I might find:
> 
>      #define FS_MAGIC        0x011954   /* the fast filesystem magic number */
>      #define FS_OKAY         0x7c269d38 /* superblock checksum */
> 
> ... but I don't see those bytes.  Any hints?
> 
> I'm willing to post a description of a solution for the FAQ if I can
> find the filesystems.
> 
> Dave.

It's better to find a whole disklabel.

According to the disklabel(5):
#define DISKMAGIC       ((u_long) 0x82564557)   /* The disk magic number */

My disk is set in dedicated mode, so:
# dd if=/dev/da0c bs=1 skip=1b count=4 | hd
4+0 records in
4+0 records out
4 bytes transferred in 0.022311 secs (179 bytes/sec)
00000000  57 45 56 82                                       |WEV‚|
00000004


HTH,
-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:31:50 1999
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To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Subject: Re: The usage of MNT_RELOAD 
Cc: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>,
	Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>,
	Luoqi Chen <luoqi@watermarkgroup.com>, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:11:12 PDT."
		<199909081811.LAA88623@apollo.backplane.com> 
References: <199909081811.LAA88623@apollo.backplane.com>  <Pine.NEB.3.96.990908125631.44707B-100000@shell-2.enteract.com> 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 12:30:48 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199909081811.LAA88623@apollo.backplane.com> Matthew Dillon writes:
:     It is best, of course, to run fsck only on filesystems that have not
:     been mounted but this cannot be done for the root filesystem for obvious
:     reasons, hence the read-only mount + fsck + remount R/W.

Back in the Bad Old Days, when this option didn't exist, if fsck
changed ANYTHING on /, the system rebooted...

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:35:39 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:34:00 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe@pavilion.net>
To: David Gilbert <dgilbert@velocet.ca>
Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:46:18PM -0400, David Gilbert wrote:
> So... I lost my partition table.  I'm willing to spend a little time
> on this.  Is there a byte sequence that I might recognise in a
> superblock or at the start of a partition?  I know this isn't an easy
> task, but man 5 fs leads me to believe that I might find:
> 
>      #define FS_MAGIC        0x011954   /* the fast filesystem magic number */
>      #define FS_OKAY         0x7c269d38 /* superblock checksum */
> 
> ... but I don't see those bytes.  Any hints?
> 
> I'm willing to post a description of a solution for the FAQ if I can
> find the filesystems.
> 
> Dave.

Search the hackers mailing list for a mail from me, which contains a
C program to do the work for you.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:36: 4 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:34:24 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe@pavilion.net>
To: David Gilbert <dgilbert@velocet.ca>
Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
Message-ID: <19990908193424.D58237@florence.pavilion.net>
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:46:18PM -0400, David Gilbert wrote:
> So... I lost my partition table.  I'm willing to spend a little time
> on this.  Is there a byte sequence that I might recognise in a
> superblock or at the start of a partition?  I know this isn't an easy
> task, but man 5 fs leads me to believe that I might find:
> 
>      #define FS_MAGIC        0x011954   /* the fast filesystem magic number */
>      #define FS_OKAY         0x7c269d38 /* superblock checksum */
> 
> ... but I don't see those bytes.  Any hints?
> 
> I'm willing to post a description of a solution for the FAQ if I can
> find the filesystems.
> 

If you have problems finding it, let me know - I'll send a copy (which is
currently at home.)

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:44:52 1999
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Subject: Re: Fequent panics in FreeBSD 3.3-RC
From: jo@newsguy.com (Jo Lee)
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In article <199909081736.KAA04322@dingo.cdrom.com>, you say...
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I last night I have upgraded a system to the latest stable, and have 
>> already received two of these panics:
>
>Do you have APM enabled on this system, even just in the BIOS?
>

If enabling 'device apm...' with SMP is a no no now, do anyone have another 
recommanded fix/workaround for running top with ASUS P2-B SMP?

Regards

> [snip]



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:46:57 1999
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To: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:45:17 -0700
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:12:51 -0400 (EDT) 
 Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> wrote:

 > Well, yes, but I made some assumptions in order to do it. The assumption
 > is that whatever the current speed setting is now, the link partner's
 > speed setting is exactly opposite. So if I detect the condition, I first
 > toggle the speed setting (if it's IFM_10_T, make it IFM_100_TX and vice-
 > versa), then do a reset, then re-init the chip.

...hm... okay, I'll investigate this option.

 > However, the main problem is keeping the chip from zapping memory that it
 > doesn't own. Normally I use mbuf cluster buffers in the receive ring, but
 > I would only tell the chip that the buffer was 1536 bytes long instead of
 > 2048. But again, it seemed like the chip was DMAing much more data than
 > it should have been and overruning the whole cluster. Since I needed to
 > copy received packets in order to fix up the alignment anyway, I stopped
 > using mbuf clusters and instead allocated my own 4K receive buffers and
 > told the chip to DMA into those, on the theory that it may have been
 > barfing up the entire contents of its FIFO memory which was more than
 > 2048 bytes. Sure, most of the time you waste a lot of those 4K blocks,
 > but at least when the chip freaks out it doesn't trash any memory that
 > you don't know about.

Um. Ew.  Okay.  Sigh.

In NetBSD, we only copy if the system doesn't have __NO_STRICT_ALIGNMENT
(e.g. i386, m68k [we support some PCI m68k boxes], VAX [all those PCI
vaxes, you know!)...  I'll have to see what I can do about all of this.

 > Bleh. My experience with the PNIC shows that it does not handle
 > multi-fragment transmits very well (i.e. a packet split across multiple
 > buffers instead of just a single configuous buffer). Lite-On claims
 > that they get pretty good transmit speed with the PNIC, however I'm
 > certain they do their measurements using only single buffer transmits.
 > I typically don't see more than about 80-85Mbps, though others using
 > the Linux driver (which doesn't use multi-fragment transmits) have
 > claimed better performance (90-95Mbps). On a whim, I decided one day
 > to disable the code in pn_encap() that splits the outbound packet up
 > amount multiple descriptors and just let it copy all packer fragments
 > into a single buffer -- transmit performance actually got a little
 > faster.

That's ... scary.

Y'know, since real 21143s are *still available* (Intel is still manufacturing
them!) you'd think the companies that used to put Tulips on their boards
would still use them ... oh well.

 > My biggest problem with this stupid thing now is trying to get to work
 > on the 486/66 that I'm currently using for testing. It has an old Integrated
 > Micro Systems PCI bridge and the PNIC seems to have decided not to be
 > friends with it: the machine tends to freeze up solid whenever the chip
 > does any DMA, including just loading the setup frame.

It it trying to use Memory-Read-Multiple or Memory-Read-Line?  Old (esp. 486)
PCI bridges were known to have problems with those PCI commands.

 > http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/PNIC/pnic.ps.gz

Excellent!  Thank you very much!

 > I've also got a Winbond datasheet at:
 > 
 > http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/Winbond/winbond.ps.gz
 > 
 > The originals of both these documents were in M$ Turd format. :)

Already have this one; the Winbond datasheet is available at
www.winbond.com.tw in PDF form...

 > All of the Winbond cards are essentially the same so the one you have
 > should be enough -- mine is from a company called Trendware. The PNIC
 > is a bit tougher to deal with because there are a couple of revisions:
 > the original LinkSys PNIC cards use the 82c168 and the internal busted
 > NWAY support (i.e. no MII transceiver). For these you have to fiddle
 > with the GPIO bits to flip the relay on the card (yes, a relay) in order

Heh... I have a Kingston 21140 board that uses the PCS function to do
100baseTX, and you hear a relay flip on that board too :-)

On these PNIC boards which use the external ENDEC / PCS ... I guess you'd
be able to detect which flavor you have (for flipping the GPIO pins) using
the subsystem IDs in PCI configuration space...  The PNIC doesn't use the
DEC-format SROM, unfortunately, so just getting CSR6 and CSR12 from the
SROM isn't an option...

 > to select the right media. The trouble is LinkSys doesn't sell them
 > anymore: the later cards use the 82c169, and now they've gone to the
 > PNIC II. I had some 82c168 cards donated by FreeBSD users. I can part 
 > with one of them if you can't find one anywhere. As for the Macronix, 

I would appreciate this... I haven't been able to find '168 boards at all.

 > ideally you need one each of the 98713, 98713A and 98715A. The 98713 

I have a '15A board... I know of a NetBSD user who has a '13 board (he
sent in patches to make it work with the `de' driver initially).

 > look at the application notes from Macronix, they mention the "magic 
 > numbers" you need to program into CSR15 (I think). The original 98713 
 > needs one setting while the others require another setting. Macronix 
 > doesn't say what the magic values really do, so I just program them in 
 > and cross my fingers. (I'm considering adding some code to provide a fake 
 > MII interface to the 98713A and friends so that I can use the miibus code
 > to control the media selection so that I can convert the whole driver
 > to use the miibus layer.)

Yah, I have the Macronix data sheets...

Doing the NWAY register stuff as a simulated PHY is a good idea... should
sort-of work for the PNIC, too, and would save duplicating all that logic
that MII code already implements.

 > Also, the PNIC II (LC82c115) is actually a Macronix chip with wake
 > on lan and only a 128-bit multicast hash table. The LinkSys LNE100TX v2.0
 > card that I have and the sample 98715A card look almost identical.

...I'll have to hunt down one of these cards.

 > If you have a 98715A datasheet handy, you can use that as a reference
 > when programming this chip; just remember about the smaller hash table.
 > I'll stick a copy of my PNIC II datasheet at www.freebsd.org for you
 > a little later -- I originally got my copy from LinkSys.

That's be great...

 > As for ADMtek, I originally went looking at www.admtek.com.tw and just 
 > e-mailed one of the contacts that they list asking where I could buy a 
 > board in the U.S., since I already had the datasheet (the AL981 sheet is 
 > on their server). They turned out to be really eager to help me and sent 
 > me two cards directly. Again, I have to grope through my back e-mail to 
 > find the name of the guy I spoke too, but you can easily get in touch
 > with them using the contact info on their site.

Ok, good to know, thanks.

 > Cnet makes a couple of cards using clone tulip chips: the Pro110 and 120
 > series. One of them uses the ASIX chip and the others use Macronix. I've
 > been told you can sometimes find these at Fry's. Jaton Corporation makes

Okay... good to know...

 > a board called the Jaton XpressNet what uses the Davicom DM9102. This
 > is another chip with a pretty cruddy DMA engine.

Davicom ... Winbond-like?

Thanks a LOT for this info!

        -- Jason R. Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 11:56:36 1999
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To: jo@newsguy.com (Jo Lee)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Fequent panics in FreeBSD 3.3-RC 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 11:44:30 PDT."
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> In article <199909081736.KAA04322@dingo.cdrom.com>, you say...
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> 
> >> I last night I have upgraded a system to the latest stable, and have 
> >> already received two of these panics:
> >
> >Do you have APM enabled on this system, even just in the BIOS?
> 
> If enabling 'device apm...' with SMP is a no no now, do anyone have another 
> recommanded fix/workaround for running top with ASUS P2-B SMP?

Get the BIOS revision that works; this was discussed a while back.  I 
seem to recall that a something-11 BIOS was broken, but the 
something-10 revision worked.  You can get better information by 
searching the lists.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 12:17:10 1999
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To: David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Subject: Re: STABLE kern/13546: Too-verbose output from PCI probe at bootup 
In-Reply-To: Message from David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie> 
   of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 08:18:43 BST." <199909080818.aa15279@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> 
X-Face: =O'Kj74icvU|oS*<7gS/8'\Pbpm}okVj*@UC!IgkmZQAO!W[|iBiMs*|)n*`X
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From: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
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>It seemmed to work fine for us too, but if there is a possibility
>of some problem it's probably worth working around "properly". It
>only takes about 4 lines of code. (Unless someone can say this
>is definitely harmless in the SMP case)

Ok, here's the proper fix.  Turns out that this 4xPPro box has two
"Orion" chips in it, and the code that picks off the number of
subordinate buses returns 255 for whatever reason.  The fix is copied
from the fixbushigh_450nx() routine into the fixbushigh_orion() routine,
which appears to have the same problem.

The fix could be made generic and moved out of both bushigh routines if
there are no systems out there with 255 subordinate buses.  The magic
number 255 may mean different things to different chipsets so I settled
for this Orion-specific fix.

Better?  Anyone out there with 255 Orion chips in their system?


	-- Parag Patel



*** /sys/pci/pcisupport.c       Sat Sep  4 04:02:49 1999
--- pcisupport.c        Wed Sep  8 12:03:00 1999
***************
*** 129,134 ****
--- 129,149 ----
  {
        tag->secondarybus = pci_cfgread(tag, 0x4a, 1);
        tag->subordinatebus = pci_cfgread(tag, 0x4b, 1);
+
+       if (tag->subordinatebus == 255) {
+               printf("fixbushigh_orion: bogus highest PCI bus %d",
+                      tag->subordinatebus);
+ #ifdef NBUS
+               tag->subordinatebus = NBUS - 2;
+ #else
+               tag->subordinatebus = 10;
+ #endif
+               printf(", reduced to %d\n", tag->subordinatebus);
+       }
+
+       if (bootverbose)
+               printf("fixbushigh_orion: subordinatebus is %d\n",
+                       tag->subordinatebus);
  }

  static void


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 12:47:12 1999
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From: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
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Subject: Re: K6 Write Combining & FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909071918230.46422-100000@janus.syracuse.net> from "Brian F. Feldman" at "Sep 7, 1999  7:25:26 pm"
To: green@FreeBSD.org (Brian F. Feldman)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:42:04 +0200 (CEST)
Cc: peter@netplex.com.au, aa8vb@ipass.net, mike@smith.net.au,
	hackers@FreeBSD.org
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As Brian F. Feldman wrote ...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> 
> > Wilko (confused...)
> 
> No, I already committed the change to comment it out in -STABLE. I will
> investigate further, but I will definitely not have it in by -RELEASE time.

OK, clear. I was just worried it would silently sneak itself in 3.3R.

3.3-RC suddenly sporting it sort of worried me..

> No problem has been noticed before because XFree86 has not supported MTRRs
> until recently (snapshots of pre-4.0.) I am going to see what could be
> wrong, and possibly reenable the code at a later date. For now, it's
> considered "dangerous" and you shouldn't mess with it unless you are willing
> to accept the risks that entails.

The first thing I did was comment it out, even before I got this email ;-)

Thanks,
	Wilko
-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands	- Powered by FreeBSD -
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte 	 WWW  : http://www.tcja.nl 	http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 12:51: 5 1999
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From: Bill Paul <wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Message-Id: <199909081952.PAA08382@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 15:52:05 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <199909081845.LAA01909@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Sep 8, 99 11:45:17 am
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Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, Jason Thorpe 
had to walk into mine and say:

>  > However, the main problem is keeping the chip from zapping memory that it
>  > doesn't own. Normally I use mbuf cluster buffers in the receive ring, but
>  > I would only tell the chip that the buffer was 1536 bytes long instead of
>  > 2048. But again, it seemed like the chip was DMAing much more data than
>  > it should have been and overruning the whole cluster. Since I needed to
>  > copy received packets in order to fix up the alignment anyway, I stopped
>  > using mbuf clusters and instead allocated my own 4K receive buffers and
>  > told the chip to DMA into those, on the theory that it may have been
>  > barfing up the entire contents of its FIFO memory which was more than
>  > 2048 bytes. Sure, most of the time you waste a lot of those 4K blocks,
>  > but at least when the chip freaks out it doesn't trash any memory that
>  > you don't know about.
> 
> Um. Ew.  Okay.  Sigh.
> 
> In NetBSD, we only copy if the system doesn't have __NO_STRICT_ALIGNMENT
> (e.g. i386, m68k [we support some PCI m68k boxes], VAX [all those PCI
> vaxes, you know!)...  I'll have to see what I can do about all of this.

Somebody raised the point that the NFS code will copy packets in order
to obtain longword alignment for the benefit of XDR decoding. The argument
was that since NFS wants the payload aligned, you may as well fix up the
alignment in the driver. Of course, at the time this was a bigger issue 
because the copying in NFS was broken.

There aren't that many PCI chipsets that allow byte alignment for receive
buffers. The high end cards (Intel, 3Com, Texas Instruments) do, as well
as the gigabit ethernet NICs, or at least the ones I have do. The only
cheap one that does it is the Sundance ST201, which clones the 3Com XL
interface. (D-Link will be using this chip on the DFE-550TX. Sundance is at 
www.sundanceti.com.)
 
>  > My biggest problem with this stupid thing now is trying to get to work
>  > on the 486/66 that I'm currently using for testing. It has an old Integrated
>  > Micro Systems PCI bridge and the PNIC seems to have decided not to be
>  > friends with it: the machine tends to freeze up solid whenever the chip
>  > does any DMA, including just loading the setup frame.
> 
> It it trying to use Memory-Read-Multiple or Memory-Read-Line?  Old (esp. 486)
> PCI bridges were known to have problems with those PCI commands.

I'm not sure. I got tired of schlepping from my office to the lab to
reboot the stupid machine all the time and put it aside for a while. :)
 
>  > http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/PNIC/pnic.ps.gz
> 
> Excellent!  Thank you very much!

No problem.

>  > All of the Winbond cards are essentially the same so the one you have
>  > should be enough -- mine is from a company called Trendware. The PNIC
>  > is a bit tougher to deal with because there are a couple of revisions:
>  > the original LinkSys PNIC cards use the 82c168 and the internal busted
>  > NWAY support (i.e. no MII transceiver). For these you have to fiddle
>  > with the GPIO bits to flip the relay on the card (yes, a relay) in order
> 
> Heh... I have a Kingston 21140 board that uses the PCS function to do
> 100baseTX, and you hear a relay flip on that board too :-)
> 
> On these PNIC boards which use the external ENDEC / PCS ... I guess you'd
> be able to detect which flavor you have (for flipping the GPIO pins) using
> the subsystem IDs in PCI configuration space...  The PNIC doesn't use the
> DEC-format SROM, unfortunately, so just getting CSR6 and CSR12 from the
> SROM isn't an option...

I have to confess that I've been ignoring the SROM. My usual scheme is
to probe for a PHY on the MII bus first, and if I find none, I assume
the card uses some other form of media. In the case of the PNIC, you
can distinguish the 82c168 from the 82c169 by checking the PCI revision
code. I've seen the following:

- 0x10: original 82c168
- 0x20: 82c169 used on LinkSys/Matrox PNIC cards with Myson PHY
- 0x21: 82c169 used on Netgear FA310-TX rev D1/D2 cards

The Netgear cards have chips that say NGM169B (rev D1) or NGM169C
(rev D2). The PCI revision has not changed between the B and C chips so I 
don't know what the difference is. The cards themselves differ in that
the Rev D1 boards use a Level One LXT970 PHY while the Rev D2 boards
use a Broadcom PHY.

>  > to select the right media. The trouble is LinkSys doesn't sell them
>  > anymore: the later cards use the 82c169, and now they've gone to the
>  > PNIC II. I had some 82c168 cards donated by FreeBSD users. I can part 
>  > with one of them if you can't find one anywhere. As for the Macronix, 
> 
> I would appreciate this... I haven't been able to find '168 boards at all.

Okay, I just dug one out of my pile (it says Matrox on the back but
it's identical to the LinkSys one). Give me an address where I should
send it and I'll try to drop it in the mail sometime this week.

>  > ideally you need one each of the 98713, 98713A and 98715A. The 98713 
> 
> I have a '15A board... I know of a NetBSD user who has a '13 board (he
> sent in patches to make it work with the `de' driver initially).

Unfortunately I only have one each of the Macronix cards. You can
still find some of the 98713 and 98713A cards around though.

> Doing the NWAY register stuff as a simulated PHY is a good idea... should
> sort-of work for the PNIC, too, and would save duplicating all that logic
> that MII code already implements.

Depends a bit on how hard it is to fake up the pseudo registers. I'm
pretty sure I can do it but I'm not looking forward to it.

>  > Also, the PNIC II (LC82c115) is actually a Macronix chip with wake
>  > on lan and only a 128-bit multicast hash table. The LinkSys LNE100TX v2.0
>  > card that I have and the sample 98715A card look almost identical.
> 
> ...I'll have to hunt down one of these cards.

These are easy to find: the LNE100TX v2.0 is what LinkSys is currently
shipping. They come in a blue and orange box, unlike the old one which
was mostly white. Any place that was selling the older LNE100TX is
probably selling the LNE100TX v2.0 now. You might also be able to hit
up Greg Lapolla at LinkSys for a sample board. (I sent you his e-mail
address in a separate mail.)
 
>  > If you have a 98715A datasheet handy, you can use that as a reference
>  > when programming this chip; just remember about the smaller hash table.
>  > I'll stick a copy of my PNIC II datasheet at www.freebsd.org for you
>  > a little later -- I originally got my copy from LinkSys.
> 
> That's be great...

Okay. It's at http://www.freebsd.org/~wpaul/Macronix/PNIC_II.PDF. Note
that when you pull this up in a PDF viewer and examine the document
properties, it will tell you the document name is "MX9815A." :) 

>  > a board called the Jaton XpressNet what uses the Davicom DM9102. This
>  > is another chip with a pretty cruddy DMA engine.
> 
> Davicom ... Winbond-like?

No, the Davicom DM9102 is a pretty close copy of the tulip: it uses
the setup frame mechanism for programming the RX filter. You can find
the datasheet at http://www.davicom8.com. They also have a Linux driver
up there somewhere (it's kind of gnarly, but then so are most Linux
drivers).

The DM9102 also has a built-in PHY so there's no ambiguity about the
media. Don't confuse this with the DM9101 which is a PHY only.

-Bill

-- 
=============================================================================
-Bill Paul            (212) 854-6020 | System Manager, Master of Unix-Fu
Work:         wpaul@ctr.columbia.edu | Center for Telecommunications Research
Home:  wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu | Columbia University, New York City
=============================================================================
 "It is not I who am crazy; it is I who am mad!" - Ren Hoek, "Space Madness"
=============================================================================


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 13: 9:53 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:08:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> There was also an DE-422 EISA card. Dunno if they are different.
> 
> Do you have/want one? I could try to get you one. EISA is dead of course,
> but older machines tend to have EISA slots to spare, and PCI in short
> supply.

I'd love to find an EISA based tulip card.  Know where I might pick one up
for under $10?

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 13:42:53 1999
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To: Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	matt@3am-software.com
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:17:52 +0200 (CEST) 
 Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl> wrote:

 > There was also an DE-422 EISA card. Dunno if they are different.

I'm not sure what a DE-422 had on it...  Matt?

 > Do you have/want one? I could try to get you one. EISA is dead of course,
 > but older machines tend to have EISA slots to spare, and PCI in short
 > supply.

If you could arrange it, that'd be great!  I have EISA AlphaStations.

        -- Jason R. Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 14: 4:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:50:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Using gdb with fork()
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990908163503.22711B-100000@sol.cs.binghamton.edu>
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I am using gdb 4.18 on FreeBSD-current.  The program being debugged
consists of two small files: test1.c and test2.c.  The main() in test1.c
has a call to fork() and for the child process case, it will call a
routine, say test(), in test2.c. 

I use "set follow-fork-mode child", "break fork", "step" command trying to
access the source in test2.c without success.  The program is compiled
with "cc -g test1.c test2.c" and I run gdb with "gdb a.out".

If there is no fork(), a call from test1.c to a routine in test2.c will
bring up the source of test2.c if I step that routine.  Why it does not
work with fork()?  Am I missing something?

Thanks for any help.
 
--------------------------------------------------
Zhihui Zhang.  Please visit http://www.freebsd.org
--------------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 14:41:46 1999
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From: Kip Macy <kip@lyris.com>
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To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Using gdb with fork()
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You need to detach from your current process and attach to the spawned
process. It might make it easier to attach in a timely fashion if you put
a 3 second sleep in right after the fork. This would all be easiest using
something like DDD where DDD will tell you what other processes are
running with the same name, and allow you to attach to them through the
GUI.

			-Kip

	

On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> 
> I am using gdb 4.18 on FreeBSD-current.  The program being debugged
> consists of two small files: test1.c and test2.c.  The main() in test1.c
> has a call to fork() and for the child process case, it will call a
> routine, say test(), in test2.c. 
> 
> I use "set follow-fork-mode child", "break fork", "step" command trying to
> access the source in test2.c without success.  The program is compiled
> with "cc -g test1.c test2.c" and I run gdb with "gdb a.out".
> 
> If there is no fork(), a call from test1.c to a routine in test2.c will
> bring up the source of test2.c if I step that routine.  Why it does not
> work with fork()?  Am I missing something?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
>  
> --------------------------------------------------
> Zhihui Zhang.  Please visit http://www.freebsd.org
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 
> 




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 14:46:13 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 14:44:17 -0700
To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>,
	Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>
From: Matt Thomas <matt@3am-software.com>
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 01:41 PM 9/8/99 , Jason Thorpe wrote:
>On Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:17:52 +0200 (CEST) 
>  Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl> wrote:
>
>  > There was also an DE-422 EISA card. Dunno if they are different.
>
>I'm not sure what a DE-422 had on it...  Matt?

LANCE.  It's supported by the DEPCA attachment (though as ISA).  Very
nice card.  It has 128KB of local RAM (which can be moved to almost any
where in phyical memory).  The only real botch is that the IRQ is a write
only register so you need to read the EISA bios to autoconfigure it.

>  > Do you have/want one? I could try to get you one. EISA is dead of course,
>  > but older machines tend to have EISA slots to spare, and PCI in short
>  > supply.
>
>If you could arrange it, that'd be great!  I have EISA AlphaStations.

I have one DE425 and one DE422.
-- 
Matt Thomas               Internet:   matt@3am-software.com
3am Software Foundry      WWW URL:    http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/
Cupertino, CA             Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 14:52:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Matt Thomas <matt@3am-software.com>
Cc: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>,
	Wilko Bulte <wilko@yedi.iaf.nl>, wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Tulip device driver question 
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Matt Thomas wrote:
> LANCE.  It's supported by the DEPCA attachment (though as ISA).  Very
> nice card.  It has 128KB of local RAM (which can be moved to almost any
> where in phyical memory).  The only real botch is that the IRQ is a write
> only register so you need to read the EISA bios to autoconfigure it.

Yea, the write only config registers are really pushing me towards
implementing the EISA BIOS routines in order to just get the config from
them.  If anyone has any references on this they could point me to I'd
really appriciate it.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 15:16:15 1999
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909082214.RAA96088@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: PCI modems do not work???
To: peter@netplex.com.au (Peter Wemm)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 17:14:08 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), bde@FreeBSD.ORG,
	winter@jurai.net (Matthew N. Dodd), imp@village.org (Warner Losh),
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Quickly going back to this issue of making sio.c work with PCI uarts. If any
developer would like to step forward who's willing to make this work for us
in the next few days, I'm willing to pay for this.

We've had a deadline spring up, which is making me move on to other things.
If anyone who can, in good faith, say they could have something workable by
early next week, please contact me privately with your rates. We'll pay a
decent amount to have this done, if it can be done quickly.

Any takers?

Kevin Day
Midway Games




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:29: 8 1999
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: Stephen Hocking-Senior Programmer PGS Perth <shocking@prth.pgs.com>,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 10:49:19 PDT."
             <199909081749.KAA35860@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:26:35 -0700
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> Nice Idea however wrong operating system. The losers should
> have done it  for FreeBSD instead of linux. 

1. Unconstructive (losers?)

2. Irrelevant (what gets done for Linux by XFree86 et all gets to FreeBSD
   pretty quickly)

3. Needlessly cross-posted (watch your cc lines, loser! :).

- Jordan


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:33:45 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:19:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
To: Kip Macy <kip@lyris.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: How to follow child process in gdb
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.05.9909081438090.28873-100000@luna>
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Kip Macy wrote:

> You need to detach from your current process and attach to the spawned
> process. It might make it easier to attach in a timely fashion if you put
> a 3 second sleep in right after the fork. This would all be easiest using
> something like DDD where DDD will tell you what other processes are
> running with the same name, and allow you to attach to them through the
> GUI.

In dbx on a Sun workstation, all I need to do to follow a child process
after fork() is to use the following command in advance:

(dbx)dbxenv follow_fork_mode child

Your response suggests that I can not achieve the same result simply by
using (I am using gdb 4.18):

(gdb)set follow-fork-mode child

I have to use attach and dettach to do so.  Does that mean I have to
display the pid of the new process in order to follow it.  And I have to
modify the child process so that it can wait until I can attach to it.
That will not be as easy.

-Zhihui


> 
> 	
> 
> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I am using gdb 4.18 on FreeBSD-current.  The program being debugged
> > consists of two small files: test1.c and test2.c.  The main() in test1.c
> > has a call to fork() and for the child process case, it will call a
> > routine, say test(), in test2.c. 
> > 
> > I use "set follow-fork-mode child", "break fork", "step" command trying to
> > access the source in test2.c without success.  The program is compiled
> > with "cc -g test1.c test2.c" and I run gdb with "gdb a.out".
> > 
> > If there is no fork(), a call from test1.c to a routine in test2.c will
> > bring up the source of test2.c if I step that routine.  Why it does not
> > work with fork()?  Am I missing something?
> > 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:35:30 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc: Stephen Hocking-Senior Programmer PGS Perth <shocking@prth.pgs.com>,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:26:35 PDT."
             <5088.936836795@localhost> 
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> > Nice Idea however wrong operating system. The losers should
> > have done it  for FreeBSD instead of linux. 
> 2. Irrelevant (what gets done for Linux by XFree86 et all gets to FreeBSD
>    pretty quickly)

What gets done by XFree86 is not relevant . What is relevant in  the context
of developing an ABI/SDK for GL apps  is library compatibility in linux  and
we just went a few rounds in -multimedia about this issue  which in some
strange way is more relevant to that list than this one.

My previous posting was an instant knee jerk reaction which was very 
hard to control. Got to exercise and train my knee a little bit better .












-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:38:50 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from scam.xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201])
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Subject: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:37:57 -0700
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There is alot of talk going on over at the linux-kernel mailing list
about implementing synchronous messaging for I/O.  They are talking about
a paper that was presented at USENIX:

  http://www.cs.rice.edu/~gaurav/papers/usenix99.ps

The general idea is that select() and poll() fall over with large numbers of
file descriptors for two reasons.  First, scanning the interest list begins to
consume more time.  Second, the stateless nature between calls means that
alot of redundant processing occurs.  The solution these guys (the authors)
say is to have a way of registering interest in descriptors, then you can
call a procedure to find out what has changed since last time.

I personally think that select() is just fine and can be implemented
more efficiently than currently, but I would be willing to give it a shot
at both cooperating with the Linux people to get a good Linux/FreeBSD
API layed down and then implementing it.

I know some of you heard this paper presented so does anybody have any
ideas about it?

Does anybody care?

-jason




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:46:33 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:26:35 PDT."
             <5088.936836795@localhost> 
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> 3. Needlessly cross-posted (watch your cc lines, loser! :).

On a different topic, does anyone know of a good  X mailer
(currently I am using exmh) :

1. user friendly
2. filtering capability
3. thread topic support


Kind of like Netscape's mail reader however I hate to bring up
netscape to just read my mail so I am looking for something a little
bit smaller foot print 8)

	Tnks!






-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 17:58:59 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:55:09 -0300
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
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Dear gentleman,

i am a computer science student, and this semester i had to began my
project to get graduated. After looking for some interesting topics on
many sources, one rised up:
Privacity on Shared Environments.

My ideia is to add system facilities to improve privacity for users on
shared environment like, for instance, FreeBSD.

One clear example:
No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
(that's what i think).

There is many more thing like this, that could improve system privacity.
This would be my cents to FreeBSD Project.

So, what you think about this project? Is it cool enough to be done? Is
it waste of time? I would really like to have your feedback. Please,
report me something.

Again: i would really enjoy hearing from you wizards what you have to
say!


Thanks a lot for your time and cooperation.
best regards.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18: 3: 1 1999
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:02:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
Message-Id: <199909090102.UAA26715@free.pcs>
To: nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
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In article <local.mail.freebsd-hackers/19990909003757.66140.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu> you write:
>There is alot of talk going on over at the linux-kernel mailing list
>about implementing synchronous messaging for I/O.  They are talking about
>a paper that was presented at USENIX:
>
>  http://www.cs.rice.edu/~gaurav/papers/usenix99.ps
>
>The general idea is that select() and poll() fall over with large numbers of
>file descriptors for two reasons.  First, scanning the interest list begins to
>consume more time.  Second, the stateless nature between calls means that
>alot of redundant processing occurs.  The solution these guys (the authors)
>say is to have a way of registering interest in descriptors, then you can
>call a procedure to find out what has changed since last time.
>
>I personally think that select() is just fine and can be implemented
>more efficiently than currently, but I would be willing to give it a shot
>at both cooperating with the Linux people to get a good Linux/FreeBSD
>API layed down and then implementing it.
>
>I know some of you heard this paper presented so does anybody have any
>ideas about it?

Yes.  I don't particularly like some of the things in the paper,
although it does have several good concepts.  I have an implementation
that does exactly this, and have a line on two other implementations
that do the same thing (but in a different fashion).  Unfortunately, 
all of these are somewhat problem-specific and are not a general 
solution.

I've spent some time working on a generic implementation that draws
its ideas from several places.  I hope to be in a position where I
can work on this almost full time within a month.
--
Jonathan


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:11:21 1999
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-Reply-To: <199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com>
References: <5088.936836795@localhost>
	<199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com>
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> > 3. Needlessly cross-posted (watch your cc lines, loser! :).
> 
> On a different topic, does anyone know of a good  X mailer
> (currently I am using exmh) :
> 
> 1. user friendly
> 2. filtering capability
> 3. thread topic support

XEmacs + VM works very well for me, but Emacsen have a fairly large
footprint.  Then again, anything implemented in X is fairly large, so
it's no worse than most other X applications, and it's highly
configurable, as with all things in emacs.



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:23:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:21:31 -0400
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Organization: dis-
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd)
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How about xf and use procmail for filtering?

-- 
Jim Durham


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:31:11 1999
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Message-Id: <199909090127.SAA40320@rah.star-gate.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: "James C. Durham" <durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd) 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:21:31 EDT."
             <37D70B9B.D17F0D41@w2xo.pgh.pa.us> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 18:27:49 -0700
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> How about xf and use procmail for filtering?
> 
Tnks I will give xf a try and will look around a bit more . If don't 
find anything real neat I will probably roll out my own.

	Tnks Again!


-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:39:44 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:38:12 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-reply-to: <37D7056D.97260A49@ddsecurity.com.br>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> Dear gentleman,

> One clear example:
> No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> (that's what i think).

   Define "see".  Access the memory?  See that it is running?
View the argv list?  I don't see how this would affect privacy.

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|Your fault, core dumped.
`----------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:43:31 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B08651580F
	for <hackers@freebsd.org>; Wed,  8 Sep 1999 18:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from jedi@enteract.com)
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Message-ID: <002b01befa65$2e564840$010210ac@arrubin>
From: "Anthony Rubin" <jedi@enteract.com>
To: <hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Current Development Branches
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:46:47 -0500
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I know I will probably be shunned for the rest of my natural life for
suggesting this, but here goes.  How difficult would it be to change things
around a little with the development branches?  It seems there are a few
problems with 3.3-RC (including determining what RC means) and this makes it
hard in my opinion for people with production boxes to cvsup to the -STABLE
branch if they are hoping to solve problems or get the latest patches and
fixes.  I would be in favor of a -PRODUCTION branch that can never contain
code that hasn't been tested for a while.  I would also like to propose
a -BETA branch which would be -PRODUCTION with new code added.  It seems to
me that the name -STABLE is confusing many people and they seem to believe
that it isn't actually stable unless it is in the -STABLE branch when this
isn't always the case.  The only other suggestion is a possible change
of -CURRENT to
-DEVELOPMENT which would better describe what that branch is actually for.

Thanks for your time, I'm getting into my firesuit now.

Anthony Rubin
Hoffman Estates, IL
jedi@enteract.com



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:49:30 1999
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:44:38 -0700
From: "Justin C. Walker" <justin@apple.com>
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> From: Jayson Nordwick <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
> Date: 1999-09-08 17:38:56 -0700
> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
> Content-id: <66138.936837476.1@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
> Delivered-to: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
> X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG
>
> There is alot of talk going on over at the linux-kernel mailing list 
> about implementing synchronous messaging for I/O.  They are  
talking about
> a paper that was presented at USENIX:
>
>   http://www.cs.rice.edu/~gaurav/papers/usenix99.ps
>
> The general idea is that select() and poll() fall over with large  
numbers of
> file descriptors for two reasons.  First, scanning the interest  
list begins to
> consume more time.  Second, the stateless nature between calls  
means that
> alot of redundant processing occurs.  The solution these guys (the  
authors)
> say is to have a way of registering interest in descriptors, then  
you can
> call a procedure to find out what has changed since last time.
>
> I personally think that select() is just fine and can be implemented 
> more efficiently than currently, but I would be willing to give it  
a shot
> at both cooperating with the Linux people to get a good Linux/FreeBSD 
> API layed down and then implementing it.
>
> I know some of you heard this paper presented so does anybody have any 
> ideas about it?
>
> Does anybody care?

>From the FWIW department, we have, in the Darwin source, an  
implementation of a "select replacement" that is designed to get  
around some of the (perceived or real) issues with select(), e.g.,  
looking at a long (FD_SETSIZE or larger) array of bits several times  
in the kernel and in user space.

In the available sources, this is represented in sys/ev.h, and is  
implemented only for sockets.  Our tests indicate a roughly 5-10%  
speed improvement when a lot of sockets are in use but not  
exuberantly so.

For Darwin in the future (the Core OS for Mac OS X), this scheme  
will be somewhat generalized, to provide a uniform mechanism for  
fielding events from any subsystem.  It will be made more interesting  
by the need to incorporate mach message handling in addition to  
file-descriptor-based events.

Have a look, should this be of interest.  I'll be happy to field  
questions, since the doc is a bit, oh, scant...

Regards,

Justin

--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large *
Institute for General Semantics       |
Manager, CoreOS Networking            | When crypto is outlawed,
Apple Computer, Inc.                  | Only outlaws will have crypto.
2 Infinite Loop                       |
Cupertino, CA 95014                   |
*-------------------------------------*-------------------------------*


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:50:44 1999
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To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
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>Yes.  I don't particularly like some of the things in the paper,
>although it does have several good concepts.  I have an implementation
>that does exactly this, and have a line on two other implementations
>that do the same thing (but in a different fashion).  Unfortunately, 
>all of these are somewhat problem-specific and are not a general 
>solution.
>
>I've spent some time working on a generic implementation that draws
>its ideas from several places.  I hope to be in a position where I
>can work on this almost full time within a month.
>--
>Jonathan
>

Would you like to share your implementation and the line you have on
two other implementation that do the same thing (but in a different
fassion)?

I (and others I know) would be very interested to know what you have come
across and what these other ideas are.

-jason



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:55:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:54:56 -0300
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
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To: chris@calldei.com
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Subject: Re: CS Project
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Chris Costello wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> > Dear gentleman,
> 
> > One clear example:
> > No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> > other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> > (that's what i think).
> 
>    Define "see".  Access the memory?  See that it is running?
> View the argv list?  I don't see how this would affect privacy.
> 
> --
> |Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
> |Your fault, core dumped.
> `----------------------------------
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message

Cannot see: it would not be possible for user (except the owner) to see
that the process exists:

For instance: (my current system)

myname:~> ps auxwf
USER    PID %CPU %MEM   VSZ  RSS  TT  STAT STARTED      TIME COMMAND
root    240  7.8 10.9 15288 14036  ??  S     9:00PM   8:49.59
/usr/X11R6/bin/X -auth /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/wdm/authdir/authfiles/A:0-iP
root      1  0.0  0.2   496  256  ??  Is    6:00PM   0:00.07 /sbin/init
--
root      2  0.0  0.0     0    0  ??  DL    6:00PM   0:00.01 
(pagedaemon)
root      3  0.0  0.0     0    0  ??  DL    6:00PM   0:00.00  (vmdaemon)
root      4  0.0  0.0     0    0  ??  DL    6:00PM   0:01.26  (syncer)
root     32  0.0  0.1   204   80  ??  Is    6:00PM   0:00.00 adjkerntz
-i
root     89  0.0  0.4   824  568  ??  Is    9:00PM   0:01.25 syslogd
root    130  0.0  0.4   864  472  ??  Is    9:00PM   0:00.01 inetd
root    133  0.0  0.4   992  568  ??  Is    9:00PM   0:00.28 cron
root    137  0.0  0.4   832  568  ??  Is    9:00PM   0:00.01
/usr/sbin/lpd
root    146  0.0  0.5   832  588  ??  S     9:00PM   0:00.06
/usr/sbin/lpd
root    178  0.0  0.3   792  432  ??  Ss    9:00PM   0:04.08 moused -p
/dev/cuaa1 -t auto
root    191  0.0  0.2   500  312 con- I+    9:00PM   0:00.01 /bin/sh
/usr/local/bin/safe_mysqld
root    205  0.0  1.3 11032 1724 con- I+    9:00PM   0:00.06
/usr/local/libexec/mysqld --basedir=/usr/local --datadir=/var/db/mysql
root    206  0.0  0.7  1148  888  ??  Is    9:00PM   0:00.92
/usr/local/sbin/sshd (sshd1)
root    235  0.0  0.4   828  548  v2  Is+   9:00PM   0:00.01
/usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv2
root    236  0.0  0.4   828  548  v3  Is+   9:00PM   0:00.01
/usr/libexec/getty Pc ttyv3
root    237  0.0  1.2  2724 1512  ??  I     9:00PM   0:00.10
/usr/X11R6/bin/wdm -nodaemon ttyv4
root    241  0.0  1.3  2744 1688  ??  I     9:00PM   0:00.02
-:0                                                      (wdm)
grios   254  0.1  2.1  3352 2716  ??  S     9:00PM   0:08.95
/usr/X11R6/bin/wmaker
grios   268  0.0  0.8  1576 1072  ??  S     9:00PM   0:11.80 wmnet
grios   269  0.0  0.8  1512  968  ??  S     9:00PM   0:03.88 wmmixer -w
grios   270  0.0  0.9  1684 1180  ??  S     9:00PM   0:00.36 wmdate -s
grios   271  0.0  0.8  1524 1012  ??  S     9:00PM   0:17.23 wmtictactoe
grios   272  0.0  0.9  1660 1180  ??  S     9:00PM   0:03.07 wmitime
grios   273  0.0  1.0  1744 1240  ??  S     9:00PM   0:08.85 ascpu
-withdrawn -u 1 -sys red -nice yellow -user blue -idle white -ex
grios   274  0.0  0.9  1676 1184  ??  S     9:00PM   0:23.74 wmSun
grios   275  0.0  1.2  2064 1508  ??  S     9:00PM   0:24.84 wmCalClock
grios   276  0.0  0.8  1576  976  ??  S     9:00PM   0:02.30 wmnetselect
root   1213  0.0  0.3   468  344  v1  Is+  10:36PM   0:00.07 -csh (csh)
root   1254  0.0  0.8  1400 1032  ??  Ss   10:46PM   0:00.09 ppp
-background td
grios  1256  0.0 14.0 20148 17996  ??  S    10:46PM   0:04.92
/usr/local/netscape-4.51/communicator-4.51.bin
grios  1257  0.0 10.6 16068 13680  ??  I    10:46PM   0:00.06 (dns
helper) (communicator-4.5)
grios  1259  0.0  0.8  1516  976  ??  S    10:46PM   0:00.18 wmcdplay -w
root   1266  0.0  2.2  3224 2872  ??  R    10:48PM   0:00.11 xterm
grios  1267  0.0  0.4   992  504  p0  Ss   10:48PM   0:00.04 -bash
(bash)
root      0  0.0  0.0     0    0  ??  DLs   6:00PM   0:00.00  (swapper)
grios  1269  0.0  0.2   404  240  p0  R+   10:48PM   0:00.00 ps -auxwf

After changes made by me:

myname:~> ps auxwf
USER    PID %CPU %MEM   VSZ  RSS  TT  STAT STARTED      TIME COMMAND
grios   274  0.0  0.9  1676 1184  ??  S     9:00PM   0:24.03 wmSun
grios   275  0.0  1.2  2064 1508  ??  S     9:00PM   0:25.15 wmCalClock
grios   276  0.0  0.8  1576  976  ??  S     9:00PM   0:02.32 wmnetselect
grios  1256  0.0 14.0 20148 17996  ??  S    10:46PM   0:05.56
/usr/local/netscape-4.51/communicator-4.51.bin
grios  1257  0.0 10.6 16068 13680  ??  I    10:46PM   0:00.06 (dns
helper) (communicator-4.5)
grios  1259  0.0  0.8  1516  976  ??  S    10:46PM   0:00.28 wmcdplay -w
grios  1267  0.0  0.4   992  504  p0  Ss   10:48PM   0:00.04 -bash
(bash)
grios   254  0.0  2.1  3352 2728  ??  S     9:00PM   0:09.19
/usr/X11R6/bin/wmaker

I would be able to see any other proccess which i am not the owner, top
would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.

do you understand now, what i meant?

Linux already have such a facility!

Thanks a lot!


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 18:59:48 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:58:52 -0300
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Subject: Re: CS Project
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Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> 
> After changes made by me:
> 
> 
> I would be able to see any other proccess which i am not the owner, top
    ^^^^^^^^      
    would not be      (there was a mistaken in the sentece above, it was
in lack of "not" )

> would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.
> 
> do you understand now, what i meant?
> 
> Linux already have such a facility!
> 
> Thanks a lot!


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19: 4: 2 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:02:51 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-reply-to: <37D71370.45BCA505@ddsecurity.com.br>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> I would be able to see any other proccess which i am not the owner, top
> would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.
> 
> do you understand now, what i meant?
> 
> Linux already have such a facility!

   I don't believe such a facility is needed.  If a user does not
want their process to be seen, they could do something like call
setproctitle().

> Thanks a lot!

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|I suppose when it gets to that point, we shan't
|know how it does it.  - Turing
`-----------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19: 6:15 1999
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From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Subject: Re: CS Project
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com
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On 09-Sep-99 Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> > I would be able to see any other proccess which i am not the owner, top
>      ^^^^^^^^      
>      would not be      (there was a mistaken in the sentece above, it was
>  in lack of "not" )
>  
> > would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.
> > 
> > do you understand now, what i meant?
> > 
> > Linux already have such a facility!

Hack ps and turn off procfs :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:08:01 +1000
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
Message-ID: <19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home>
References: <5088.936836795@localhost> <199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:43:17PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 3. Needlessly cross-posted (watch your cc lines, loser! :).
> 
> On a different topic, does anyone know of a good  X mailer
> (currently I am using exmh) :

There aren't any.  :-)  (depends on your value of "good")

> 1. user friendly
> 2. filtering capability

I've decided that threading isn't the mailer's job.  I don't want
to have to wade through a mailbox full of lists when I'm connecting
from off site, and have shut down my on-site mailer.

Lots of folk use procmail, but since I'm using qmail as an MTA,
I thought I'd see if I could use it's native methods, and it's
really easy, with a shell script that's just a case $SENDER
block.

> 3. thread topic support

The best threading mail reader that I've come across is mutt,
but that might be too traditional for your option 1.

If you find a pretty, lightweight X-based MUA that does a good job
with threads (and MIME, and PGP), I'd like to know about it too.

XFMail isn't acceptable, because I've got 130M of mbox mail
boxes in a deep directory hierarchy, and I'd like to keep them
that way.  The last time I looked at XFMail it insisted on an
un-nested mh-directory style of mailbox.  Is it still the case?

Nate: it's a while since I looked at VM on XEmacs.  I found its
layout cluttered and it's key sequences awkward.  How configurable
is it, really?  Do you use it as it comes out of the box?

-- 
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19:10: 4 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:08:47 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: Current Development Branches
In-reply-to: <002b01befa65$2e564840$010210ac@arrubin>
To: Anthony Rubin <jedi@enteract.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: chris@calldei.com
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Anthony Rubin wrote:
> I know I will probably be shunned for the rest of my natural life for
> suggesting this, but here goes.  How difficult would it be to change things
> around a little with the development branches?  It seems there are a few
> problems with 3.3-RC (including determining what RC means) and this makes it

   "Release Candidate."

> hard in my opinion for people with production boxes to cvsup to the -STABLE
> branch if they are hoping to solve problems or get the latest patches and
> fixes.  I would be in favor of a -PRODUCTION branch that can never contain
> code that hasn't been tested for a while.  I would also like to propose

   That's the point of the -STABLE branch.  Code is explicitly
_NOT_ allowed to go into -STABLE without having first been tested
in -CURRENT.

> a -BETA branch which would be -PRODUCTION with new code added.  It seems to

   Up until now, -BETA was the testing period that went up to
-RELEASE.

> me that the name -STABLE is confusing many people and they seem to believe
> that it isn't actually stable unless it is in the -STABLE branch when this
> isn't always the case.  The only other suggestion is a possible change

   We can't be perfect.  If there is instability in the -STABLE
branch, please use the send-pr mechanism to report this bug, and
if possible, provide a patch.  -STABLE is meant explicitly for
production systems, and we try to keep only stable code in that
branch.

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|Entropy isn't what it used to be.
`----------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19:11:25 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133])
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Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:09:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-Reply-To: <37D7056D.97260A49@ddsecurity.com.br>
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On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:

> Dear gentleman,
> 
> i am a computer science student, and this semester i had to began my
> project to get graduated. After looking for some interesting topics on
> many sources, one rised up:
> Privacity on Shared Environments.
> 
> My ideia is to add system facilities to improve privacity for users on
> shared environment like, for instance, FreeBSD.
> 
> One clear example:
> No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> (that's what i think).
> 
> There is many more thing like this, that could improve system privacity.
> This would be my cents to FreeBSD Project.
> 
> So, what you think about this project? Is it cool enough to be done? Is
> it waste of time? I would really like to have your feedback. Please,
> report me something.
> 
> Again: i would really enjoy hearing from you wizards what you have to
> say!

You have a little problem with our language, and it's making it
difficult to tell if you know enough to start hacking.  There are
already lots of extra security measures on FreeBSD; if you want to
research this, and perhaps come up with something extra, you'd certainly
want to look at the "pam" facility (man pam), which would probably be
where you'd want to do your work.

From your words above, it *seems* like you're saying that facilities
like this don't already exist; they do indeed.  Adding more is possible,
but you'd need to find a niche that's been overlooked.  If you just
started hacking without looking at what's already there, your chance of
getting it accepted is virtually nil.

We want to be willing to accept new code, but that code has to fit into
the architecture of FreeBSD.



---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19:13:24 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-ID: <19990908211220.51724@right.PCS>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1999 21:12:20 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: Jayson Nordwick <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
References: <local.mail.freebsd-hackers/19990909003757.66140.qmail@scam.xcf.be> <19990909014946.68463.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
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On Sep 09, 1999 at 06:49:46PM -0700, Jayson Nordwick wrote:
> >Yes.  I don't particularly like some of the things in the paper,
> >although it does have several good concepts.  I have an implementation
> >that does exactly this, and have a line on two other implementations
> >that do the same thing (but in a different fashion).  Unfortunately, 
> >all of these are somewhat problem-specific and are not a general 
> >solution.
> >
> >I've spent some time working on a generic implementation that draws
> >its ideas from several places.  I hope to be in a position where I
> >can work on this almost full time within a month.
> >--
> >Jonathan
> >
> 
> Would you like to share your implementation and the line you have on
> two other implementation that do the same thing (but in a different
> fassion)?

There wouldn't be much point, since it was written for a specific
problem and doesn't handle some general cases that could come up.

Search the -hackers archive for "poll() and scalability", around July,
for the archived discussions, and my original interface.


> I (and others I know) would be very interested to know what you have come
> across and what these other ideas are.

I'll present a possible interface (and implementation) when I'm 
satisfied it'll work well for most consumers.  This isn't going 
to be for a month or so, I have PhD qualifying exams and some 
other things to clear off my plate first.
--
Jonathan


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 19:53: 3 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909090252.LAA29146@shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: New(bus|pnp)-ifyed joy(4)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:52:31 +0900
From: Takanori Watanabe <takawata@shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp>
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Hi, I write patch for joy.c so that it recognize CS4235 Game port by PnP.
API do work,but hardware seems to be uninitialized.
(Read returns only 0x80000000)
Are there any person who review this?

To use PnP Interface,
write simply 
device joy0
and add your GAME port ID to
joy_ids[];


Takanori Watanabe
<a href="http://www.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp/~takawata/key.html">
Public Key</a>
Key fingerprint =  2C 51 E2 78 2C E1 C5 2D  0F F1 20 A3 11 3A 62 2A 
BTW.


diff -u /home/ctm/src/sys/i386/isa/isa_compat.h ./isa_compat.h
--- /home/ctm/src/sys/i386/isa/isa_compat.h	Thu Sep  9 08:17:07 1999
+++ ./isa_compat.h	Thu Sep  9 09:27:49 1999
@@ -140,7 +140,9 @@
 extern struct isa_driver spigotdriver;
 extern struct isa_driver  gpdriver;
 extern struct isa_driver gscdriver;
+#if 0
 extern struct isa_driver joydriver;
+#endif
 extern struct isa_driver  cydriver;
 extern struct isa_driver dgbdriver;
 extern struct isa_driver dgmdriver;
@@ -371,7 +373,7 @@
 #if NSPIGOT > 0
 	{ INTR_TYPE_MISC, &spigotdriver },
 #endif
-#if NJOY > 0
+#if 0
 	{ INTR_TYPE_MISC, &joydriver },
 #endif
 
diff -u /home/ctm/src/sys/i386/isa/joy.c ./joy.c
--- /home/ctm/src/sys/i386/isa/joy.c	Fri Aug 27 03:17:58 1999
+++ ./joy.c	Thu Sep  9 10:04:56 1999
@@ -35,12 +35,19 @@
 #include <sys/kernel.h>
 #include <sys/uio.h>
 
+
+
 #include <machine/clock.h>
 #include <machine/joystick.h>
+#include <machine/bus.h>
 
-#include <i386/isa/isa.h>
-#include <i386/isa/isa_device.h>
+#include <sys/bus.h>
+#include <sys/rman.h>
+#include <machine/resource.h>
+#include <isa/isareg.h>
+#include <isa/isavar.h>
 #include <i386/isa/timerreg.h>
+#include "isa_if.h"
 
 /* The game port can manage 4 buttons and 4 variable resistors (usually 2
  * joysticks, each with 2 buttons and 2 pots.) via the port at address 0x201.
@@ -65,17 +72,17 @@
 #define JOY_TIMEOUT   2000 /* 2 milliseconds */
 #endif
 
-static struct {
-    int port;
+struct joy_softc{
+    bus_space_tag_t  bt;
+    bus_space_handle_t port;
     int x_off[2], y_off[2];
     int timeout[2];
-} joy[NJOY];
+} ;
 
 
-static int joyprobe (struct isa_device *);
-static int joyattach (struct isa_device *);
+static int joy_probe (device_t);
+static int joy_attach (device_t);
 
-struct isa_driver joydriver = {joyprobe, joyattach, "joy"};
 
 #define CDEV_MAJOR 51
 static	d_open_t	joyopen;
@@ -107,12 +114,17 @@
 
 static int get_tick __P((void));
 
-
+devclass_t joy_devclass;
+static struct isa_pnp_id joy_ids[] = {
+  {0x0100630e,"CS4235 PnP Joystick"},
+  {0}
+};
 static int
-joyprobe (struct isa_device *dev)
+joy_probe (device_t dev)
 {
     static int once;
-
+    if(ISA_PNP_PROBE(device_get_parent(dev),dev,joy_ids)==ENXIO)
+       return ENXIO;
     if (!once++)
 	cdevsw_add(&joy_cdevsw);
 #ifdef WANT_JOYSTICK_CONNECTED
@@ -120,60 +132,77 @@
     DELAY (10000); /*  10 ms delay */
     return (inb (dev->id_iobase) & 0x0f) != 0x0f;
 #else
-    return 1;
+    return 0;
 #endif
 }
 
 static int
-joyattach (struct isa_device *dev)
+joy_attach (device_t dev)
 {
-    int	unit = dev->id_unit;
-
-    joy[unit].port = dev->id_iobase;
-    joy[unit].timeout[0] = joy[unit].timeout[1] = 0;
-    printf("joy%d: joystick\n", unit);
+    int	unit = device_get_unit(dev);
+    int rid=0;
+    struct resource *res;
+    struct joy_softc *joy=device_get_softc(dev);
+    res=bus_alloc_resource(dev,SYS_RES_IOPORT,&rid,0,~0,8,RF_ACTIVE);
+    if(res==NULL)
+      return ENXIO;
+    joy->bt =rman_get_bustag(res);
+    joy->port = rman_get_bushandle(res);
+    joy->timeout[0] = joy->timeout[1] = 0;
+    printf("joy%d : joystick\n ", unit);
     make_dev(&joy_cdevsw, 0, 0, 0, 0600, "joy%d", unit);
-    return 1;
+    return 0;
 }
+static device_method_t joy_methods[]={
+  DEVMETHOD(device_probe,joy_probe),
+  DEVMETHOD(device_attach,joy_attach),
+  {0,0}
+};
+static driver_t joy_isa_driver ={
+  "joy",
+  joy_methods,
+  sizeof (struct joy_softc)
+};
 
+DRIVER_MODULE(joy,isa,joy_isa_driver,joy_devclass,0,0);
 static	int
 joyopen (dev_t dev, int flags, int fmt, struct proc *p)
 {
-    int unit = UNIT (dev);
     int i = joypart (dev);
+    struct joy_softc *joy=devclass_get_softc(joy_devclass,UNIT(dev));
 
-    if (joy[unit].timeout[i])
+    if (joy->timeout[i])
 	return EBUSY;
-    joy[unit].x_off[i] = joy[unit].y_off[i] = 0;
-    joy[unit].timeout[i] = JOY_TIMEOUT;
+    joy->x_off[i] = joy->y_off[i] = 0;
+    joy->timeout[i] = JOY_TIMEOUT;
     return 0;
 }
 static	int
 joyclose (dev_t dev, int flags, int fmt, struct proc *p)
 {
-    int unit = UNIT (dev);
     int i = joypart (dev);
-
-    joy[unit].timeout[i] = 0;
+    struct joy_softc *joy=devclass_get_softc(joy_devclass,UNIT(dev));
+    joy->timeout[i] = 0;
     return 0;
 }
 
 static	int
 joyread (dev_t dev, struct uio *uio, int flag)
 {
-    int unit = UNIT(dev);
-    int port = joy[unit].port;
+    struct joy_softc *joy=devclass_get_softc(joy_devclass,UNIT(dev));
+    int port = joy->port;
+    int bt=joy->bt;
     int i, t0, t1;
     int state = 0, x = 0, y = 0;
     struct joystick c;
 
     disable_intr ();
-    outb (port, 0xff);
+    bus_space_write_1 (bt,port,0, 0xff);
     t0 = get_tick ();
     t1 = t0;
-    i = usec2ticks(joy[unit].timeout[joypart(dev)]);
+    i = usec2ticks(joy->timeout[joypart(dev)]);
     while (t0-t1 < i) {
-	state = inb (port);
+	state = bus_space_read_1 (bt,port,0);
 	if (joypart(dev) == 1)
 	    state >>= 2;
 	t1 = get_tick ();
@@ -187,8 +216,8 @@
 	    break;
     }
     enable_intr ();
-    c.x = x ? joy[unit].x_off[joypart(dev)] + ticks2usec(t0-x) : 0x80000000;
-    c.y = y ? joy[unit].y_off[joypart(dev)] + ticks2usec(t0-y) : 0x80000000;
+    c.x = x ? joy->x_off[joypart(dev)] + ticks2usec(t0-x) : 0x80000000;
+    c.y = y ? joy->y_off[joypart(dev)] + ticks2usec(t0-y) : 0x80000000;
     state >>= 4;
     c.b1 = ~state & 1;
     c.b2 = ~(state >> 1) & 1;
@@ -198,7 +227,7 @@
 static	int
 joyioctl (dev_t dev, u_long cmd, caddr_t data, int flag, struct proc *p)
 {
-    int unit = UNIT (dev);
+    struct joy_softc *joy=devclass_get_softc(joy_devclass,UNIT(dev));
     int i = joypart (dev);
     int x;
 
@@ -207,22 +236,22 @@
 	x = *(int *) data;
 	if (x < 1 || x > 10000) /* 10ms maximum! */
 	    return EINVAL;
-	joy[unit].timeout[i] = x;
+	joy->timeout[i] = x;
 	break;
     case JOY_GETTIMEOUT:
-	*(int *) data = joy[unit].timeout[i];
+	*(int *) data = joy->timeout[i];
 	break;
     case JOY_SET_X_OFFSET:
-	joy[unit].x_off[i] = *(int *) data;
+	joy->x_off[i] = *(int *) data;
 	break;
     case JOY_SET_Y_OFFSET:
-	joy[unit].y_off[i] = *(int *) data;
+	joy->y_off[i] = *(int *) data;
 	break;
     case JOY_GET_X_OFFSET:
-	*(int *) data = joy[unit].x_off[i];
+	*(int *) data = joy->x_off[i];
 	break;
     case JOY_GET_Y_OFFSET:
-	*(int *) data = joy[unit].y_off[i];
+	*(int *) data = joy->y_off[i];
 	break;
     default:
 	return ENXIO;


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 20:11:34 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from scam.xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 97A10156C2
	for <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>; Wed,  8 Sep 1999 20:11:28 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu)
Received: (qmail 70302 invoked by uid 27268); 9 Sep 1999 03:10:45 -0000
Message-ID: <19990909031045.70301.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 21:12:20 CDT."
             <19990908211220.51724@right.PCS>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-ID: <70299.936846644.1@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:10:45 -0700
From: "Jayson Nordwick" <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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thank for the pointers to the mailing list... very enlightening.
I am going to try to write up an API for it this weekend with
some cooperation with others.  I will then give it a first pass
around the freebsd-hackers and linux-kernl mailing lists.  There
are a few unanswered questions as to what an event it and how to
handle them between threads and processes, but the general structure
of an event queue seems to be wanted by almost everybody.

I am not convinced by the usenix paper that this is the right way to
do things, yet.  state management is a bitch and taken too lightly
most of the time.

-jason



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 21: 5:52 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
In-Reply-To: <19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home>
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> Nate: it's a while since I looked at VM on XEmacs.  I found its
> layout cluttered and it's key sequences awkward.  How configurable
> is it, really?  Do you use it as it comes out of the box?

Really configurable, and no, I don't use it in an out-of-the-box
configuration.

I remap many of the keybindings, as well as have it setup to deal with
procmail filtered email, which works very well.

For more information, talk to me offline.



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 22:14:51 1999
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Hi Nate,

Somewhere , theres got to be a nice little email place where Unix people can talk about
usability and ease of software. 

	Have Fun Guys

-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 22:58:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 07:54:09 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> 
> > Another issue when sigset_t changes is the version numbers of shared
> > libraries. Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
> > need a version bump.
> 
> I suggest to try to avoid the version bump. NetBSD-like way to do it:
> Give new implementations another names in object files, so that they
> don't conflict with old implementations, and preserve old
> implementations in the library too. To make the compiler generate calls
> to new implementations, one can add appropriate #define s in .h files.
> For GCC, __asm__ attribute also can be used.

That still is an interface change and thus needs a version bump. How else
do I know wich version x library has the new implementations (besides the
larger one :-)?

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:15:20 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: "Eric A. Griff" <eric@setjmp.com>
To: <advocacy@freebsd.org>, <hackers@freebsd.org>,
	<freebsd-isp@freebsd.org>
Subject: Sangoma Wanpipe
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 02:12:16 -0400
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Hi all,

    Sort of off topic, though thought it might bring about some positive
response and ideas here...

    I've successfully avoided a Cisco solution (though not the ADC kentrox
one =(  )  recently with the Sangoma Wanpipe using FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE
(cvsupped last week).

    Time permitting, I intend to put together an article about this and
submitting it to a few places.. This could make FreeBSD look better in the
view of the coder that isn't core member material, though capable when
needed. Being a little rusty on basic kernel tweaking, it took me about 2
hours total to come to the conclusion that /usr/include/sys/file.h changed
the parameters changed slightly in file->filops->fo_read, and that I needed
to add a fourth parameter, O_RDONLY, to get it working again =)  Could
probably have been done in 2 minutes by someone that regularly has there
head deep in the FreeBSD kernel sources =)

    At the same time, sangoma is short on programmers, and hasn't someone to
devote to FreeBSD/linux.. The linux community has helped them... Dave
MandelSomething (Sales, not the other dave in sales =) at sangoma expressed
interest in FreeBSD side help. For more info on there products, see
www.sangoma.com. The particular card I used was the S508. Had to still use a
ADC kentrox CSU/DSU since the network was splitting 2 channels data(128k),
18 voice, and 4 unused at this time. If it was full data use of the T1, for
another $330, would have had a built in CSU/DSU (for a total of $880 or so,
plus the cost to build the PC).

    I don't think it would take to much to match the tools they have for NT,
on FreeBSD. Further, I think picoBSD could be used to make a better
troubleshooting program on a disk that might help better help debug  issues
between external CSU/DSU, and the wanpipe.

    I am going to give them the updated code later today, and talk about if
it could be included in the FreeBSD distrib.. CORE: Could this be added by
someone b4 3.3 if they agree? Would probably lead to a little more coverage
on there home page as well.. They aren't a bad company, and the Wanpipe
ptpipe driver worked pretty good, along with the card =)..  The main changes
are sys/i386/isa/ptpipe.[ch], and an entry in sys/i386/conf/files.i386, and
of course a line in the KERNEL CONFIG file.

    FreeBSD - making routers out of PC's =)

Eric A. Griff
setjmp Software
(315) 734-1668 Extension 205




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:17: 8 1999
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From: "Jason Young" <doogie@anet-stl.com>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	"Gustavo V G C Rios" <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>, <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: RE: CS Project
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:02:41 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of
> Daniel O'Connor
> Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 9:05 PM
> To: Gustavo V G C Rios
> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; chris@calldei.com
> Subject: Re: CS Project
>
>
>
> On 09-Sep-99 Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> > > I would be able to see any other proccess which i am
> not the owner, top
> >      ^^^^^^^^
> >      would not be      (there was a mistaken in the
> sentece above, it was
> >  in lack of "not" )
> >
> > > would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.
> > >
> > > do you understand now, what i meant?
> > >
> > > Linux already have such a facility!
>
> Hack ps and turn off procfs :)

I would think it more appropriate to adjust procfs' permissions in the
kernel such that a user couldn't look at processes they don't own,
i.e., can't cd or look into /proc/$PIDTHEYDONTOWN. Adding group-read
for wheel or operator or a special new group would be good for things
that must see all the processes. Like this:

> ls -al /proc
dr-xr-x---  15 root    operator    512 Sep  9 00:36 171
dr-xr-x---  15 root    operator    512 Sep  9 00:36 17430
dr-xr-x---  15 doogie  operator    512 Sep  9 00:36 17758
dr-xr-x---  15 doogie  operator    512 Sep  9 00:36 17760

Alternatively, you could just have only the entries you're supposed to
see show up in /proc, and the rest would be suppressed entirely. If
you then have procfs directly disclaim knowledge of that process when
queried by an unpriveleged user (chdir to /proc/$PIDEXISTSBUTNOTYOURS
would return ENOENT instead of EACCES), you deny brute force attacks
to find out if a PID exists and by who it is owned. That increases
privacy a bit.

After all that, one could implement a 'ps' command that would use only
procfs for process info. Procfs would need to export some more info, I
think, that is only available via kvm but surely this is a trivial
task. Then you have a simple situation where the kernel tells the user
exactly what they should know and ps just looks up all the info it's
allowed to. This should be controlled by sysctls like (placement based
on nfs and ffs sysctl placement precedent):

vfs.procfs.user_proc_privacy (0 or 1)
vfs.procfs.user_proc_overridegid (obvious, -1 for no magic GID)

I vaguely recall that PicoBSD has already got a procfs ps
implementation. I might be wrong there. Somebody's done one, anyway. I
think it would be a nice idea to have such a thing in the base system,
since such a simple utility shouldn't have to grovel in kmem and be
suid root.

Note that this feature would dovetail itself nicely to the jail()
concept. The kernel could check jail credentials as well as UID/GID
credentials to present only the jailed virtual machine processes to
the users (including root) inside the jail.

I think the idea (of a procfs ps) was shot down on the lists some time
ago because ps needs to retain the ability to look at the process list
in a kernel coredump. IMHO that's a lot of messy kvm groveling and
associated kernel-to-userland sync dependencies, just to cater to the
(generous figure) 0.5% of the people out there who have 1) a crashing
FreeBSD box and 2) the expertise and the will to debug the crash dump.
I think that issue needs to be revisited somehow.

Unfortunately I don't have my proposal written in diff(1) at the
moment, but writing all this out makes me really want to go ahead and
do it. Then again, somebody DID ask for a CS project. :)

Hope this helps,

Jason Young
accessUS Chief Network Engineer



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:24: 0 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 15:53:25 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Jason Young <doogie@anet-stl.com>
Subject: RE: CS Project
Cc: chris@calldei.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
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On 09-Sep-99 Jason Young wrote:
> > Hack ps and turn off procfs :)
>  I would think it more appropriate to adjust procfs' permissions in the
>  kernel such that a user couldn't look at processes they don't own,
>  i.e., can't cd or look into /proc/$PIDTHEYDONTOWN. Adding group-read
>  for wheel or operator or a special new group would be good for things
>  that must see all the processes. Like this:

Well.. that doesn't sound *too* complex either. Would make an interesting CS
project :)

>  queried by an unpriveleged user (chdir to /proc/$PIDEXISTSBUTNOTYOURS
>  would return ENOENT instead of EACCES), you deny brute force attacks
>  to find out if a PID exists and by who it is owned. That increases
>  privacy a bit.

Yes. it depends on your level of paranoia.

>  After all that, one could implement a 'ps' command that would use only
>  procfs for process info. Procfs would need to export some more info, I

It would be a good idea anyway.. I think someone has one floating around anyway.

>  allowed to. This should be controlled by sysctls like (placement based
>  on nfs and ffs sysctl placement precedent):

Or even a mount option to procfs :)

>  I think the idea (of a procfs ps) was shot down on the lists some time
>  ago because ps needs to retain the ability to look at the process list
>  in a kernel coredump. IMHO that's a lot of messy kvm groveling and
>  associated kernel-to-userland sync dependencies, just to cater to the
>  (generous figure) 0.5% of the people out there who have 1) a crashing
>  FreeBSD box and 2) the expertise and the will to debug the crash dump.
>  I think that issue needs to be revisited somehow.

Well.. I do use crash dumps, but rarely use ps on them.. Even so you could have
2 implementations of ps, or a ps which allows you to compile in a different
'back end'. That way you can use either easily.

>  Unfortunately I don't have my proposal written in diff(1) at the
>  moment, but writing all this out makes me really want to go ahead and
>  do it. Then again, somebody DID ask for a CS project. :)

Heh :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:29:39 1999
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From: "Jason Young" <doogie@anet-stl.com>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: <chris@calldei.com>, <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
	"Gustavo V G C Rios" <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Subject: RE: CS Project
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:15:22 -0500
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> >  I think the idea (of a procfs ps) was shot down on the
> lists some time
> >  ago because ps needs to retain the ability to look at
> the process list
> >  in a kernel coredump. IMHO that's a lot of messy kvm
> groveling and
> >  associated kernel-to-userland sync dependencies, just to
> cater to the
> >  (generous figure) 0.5% of the people out there who have
> 1) a crashing
> >  FreeBSD box and 2) the expertise and the will to debug
> the crash dump.
> >  I think that issue needs to be revisited somehow.
>
> Well.. I do use crash dumps, but rarely use ps on them..
> Even so you could have
> 2 implementations of ps, or a ps which allows you to
> compile in a different
> 'back end'. That way you can use either easily.

I concur; those were my thoughts exactly.

> >  Unfortunately I don't have my proposal written in diff(1) at the
> >  moment, but writing all this out makes me really want to
> go ahead and
> >  do it. Then again, somebody DID ask for a CS project. :)
>
> Heh :)

Say, when is babelfish going to put up an English->diff(1) translator?
Would make things a hell of a lot easier around here! :>

Jason Young
accessUS Chief Network Engineer



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:53:23 1999
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Organization: NetVision Ltd.
From: Gennady Sorokopud <gena@NetVision.net.il>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Subject: RE: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Hi!
On 09-Sep-99 Andrew Reilly wrote:
> XFMail isn't acceptable, because I've got 130M of mbox mail
> boxes in a deep directory hierarchy, and I'd like to keep them
> that way.  The last time I looked at XFMail it insisted on an
> un-nested mh-directory style of mailbox.  Is it still the case?
Nope (at least in version 1.3). Also support of regular unix mailboxes is l=
ess efficient
than that of mh. Unfortunately (due to the lack of time mostly) i had to st=
op working on
XFMail. Hope to get back to it someday.

Best regards.
--------
 Gennady B. Sorokopud - System programmer at NetVision Israel.
 E-Mail: Gennady Sorokopud <gena@NetVision.net.il>
 PGP public key is available through PGP keyserver.

 This message was sent at 09-Sep-99 08:49:56 by XFMail


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed Sep  8 23:55:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: "Jason Young" <doogie@anet-stl.com>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: <chris@calldei.com>, <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
	"Gustavo V G C Rios" <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Subject: RE: CS Project
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 01:39:52 -0500
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Some further thoughts before I doze off:

> >  allowed to. This should be controlled by sysctls like
> (placement based
> >  on nfs and ffs sysctl placement precedent):
>
> Or even a mount option to procfs :)

After some thought, I think the mount option idea is best. I hadn't
thought of that before. One might want to apply different procfs
security policies to different mounts of procfs, especially in a
jail() situation. Good call.

> >  I think the idea (of a procfs ps) was shot down on the
> lists some time
> >  ago because ps needs to retain the ability to look at
> the process list
> >  in a kernel coredump. IMHO that's a lot of messy kvm
> groveling and
> >  associated kernel-to-userland sync dependencies, just to
> cater to the
> >  (generous figure) 0.5% of the people out there who have
> 1) a crashing
> >  FreeBSD box and 2) the expertise and the will to debug
> the crash dump.
> >  I think that issue needs to be revisited somehow.
>
> Well.. I do use crash dumps, but rarely use ps on them..
> Even so you could have
> 2 implementations of ps, or a ps which allows you to
> compile in a different
> 'back end'. That way you can use either easily.

I think that the best idea here is a single ps implementation with
both backends available. Normally it would use the simple, secure and
possibly privacy-enhancing procfs method, but using the -M or -N
options to specify a dump or kernel file (or the live /dev/kmem and
/kernel, if one were so inclined) would automagically switch ps over
to the kvm grovel method.

This would make the change transparent to both users and developers.
SGID can still be removed - a developer/debugger will already be root
or have had to chown the dump/kernel files to do any debugging.

It would be mild bloat, but disk is cheap, and a disk space to
debugging ease tradeoff has already been made (to the tune of several
megs!) by the decision to build debug kernels by default. I agree with
that. One could also #ifdef the kvm version.

Jason Young
accessUS Chief Network Engineer



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  0: 9: 1 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 16:37:23 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Jason Young <doogie@anet-stl.com>
Subject: RE: CS Project
Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com
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On 09-Sep-99 Jason Young wrote:
>  After some thought, I think the mount option idea is best. I hadn't
>  thought of that before. One might want to apply different procfs
>  security policies to different mounts of procfs, especially in a
>  jail() situation. Good call.

Yeah, you'd have to make sure procfs doesn't mind being mounted multiple times,
something I'm not sure is true.

>  This would make the change transparent to both users and developers.
>  SGID can still be removed - a developer/debugger will already be root
>  or have had to chown the dump/kernel files to do any debugging.

My thought too :)

>  It would be mild bloat, but disk is cheap, and a disk space to
>  debugging ease tradeoff has already been made (to the tune of several
>  megs!) by the decision to build debug kernels by default. I agree with
>  that. One could also #ifdef the kvm version.

Yeah.. well I await the patches 8-)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  1: 1: 5 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960B214D00
	for <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 01:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from julian@whistle.com)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:57:23 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:57:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909082203220.40981-100000@picnic.mat.net>
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I think he wants something like an "inverted chroot"
(you can see out but others can't see in?
(into all facets, e.g. process stats, etc.)

julian


On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> 
> > Dear gentleman,
> > 
> > i am a computer science student, and this semester i had to began my
> > project to get graduated. After looking for some interesting topics on
> > many sources, one rised up:
> > Privacity on Shared Environments.
> > 
> > My ideia is to add system facilities to improve privacity for users on
> > shared environment like, for instance, FreeBSD.
> > 
> > One clear example:
> > No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> > other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> > (that's what i think).
> > 
> > There is many more thing like this, that could improve system privacity.
> > This would be my cents to FreeBSD Project.
> > 
> > So, what you think about this project? Is it cool enough to be done? Is
> > it waste of time? I would really like to have your feedback. Please,
> > report me something.
> > 
> > Again: i would really enjoy hearing from you wizards what you have to
> > say!
> 
> You have a little problem with our language, and it's making it
> difficult to tell if you know enough to start hacking.  There are
> already lots of extra security measures on FreeBSD; if you want to
> research this, and perhaps come up with something extra, you'd certainly
> want to look at the "pam" facility (man pam), which would probably be
> where you'd want to do your work.
> 
> From your words above, it *seems* like you're saying that facilities
> like this don't already exist; they do indeed.  Adding more is possible,
> but you'd need to find a niche that's been overlooked.  If you just
> started hacking without looking at what's already there, your chance of
> getting it accepted is virtually nil.
> 
> We want to be willing to accept new code, but that code has to fit into
> the architecture of FreeBSD.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
> chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
> 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
> Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
> (301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
> ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  1:10:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from hafner@informatik.tu-muenchen.de)
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Received: from hafner@localhost by hprbg5.informatik.tu-muenchen.de id <24235-709>; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:08:07 +0200
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
References: <5088.936836795@localhost> 	<199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com> 	<19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home> <199909090404.WAA01063@mt.sri.com>
From: Walter Hafner <hafner@informatik.tu-muenchen.de>
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City"
Date:	09 Sep 1999 10:08:06 +0200
In-Reply-To: Nate Williams's message of "Wed, 8 Sep 1999 22:04:34 -0600"
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Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com> writes:

> > Nate: it's a while since I looked at VM on XEmacs.  I found its
> > layout cluttered and it's key sequences awkward.  How configurable
> > is it, really?  Do you use it as it comes out of the box?
> 
> Really configurable, and no, I don't use it in an out-of-the-box
> configuration.
> 
> I remap many of the keybindings, as well as have it setup to deal with
> procmail filtered email, which works very well.

I can only second Nate:

I use procmail to filter all incoming mail in seperate folders
(mailinglists, admin-mails, ...), use SpamBouncer (procmail script;
http://www-new.hrweb.org/spambouncer/) to filter out spam and Emacs/VM
to read my mails. Together, these tools do a _very_ good job in
organizing my mails. This approach at least halved the time I need to
wade through mails every day.

Regarding configurability: If SpamBouncer doesn't get all spam, a simple
"Z" in VM will mail all postmasters/abuse-accounts on the mailpath,
informing them about abuse. You can do this and essentially every other
task by using the provided 'hooks'. Ok, it takes a bit of lisp
programming ...

Another benefit of this approach is, that I can process mails further,
without leaving Emacs. Say, if someone mailed me sourcecode, I can edit
it, compile, run and delete it - all in Emacs. :-)

But then, I'm an Emacs addict (typing this in GNUS, the Emacs
newsreader). :-)

-Walter [knowing that he's starting a holy war!]

-- 
Dr. Walter Hafner                         Tel: 089/289-28187
WWW-Beauftragter, TU Muenchen           Email: hafner@in.tum.de
                                          WWW: http://www.tum.de/~hafner/


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  1:32:27 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from scam.xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD34D157E3
	for <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 01:32:24 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu)
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Message-ID: <19990909083129.85789.qmail@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu
Subject: Just mailed authors of USENIX99 event i/o paper
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 01:31:29 -0700
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I just mailed druschel@cs.rice.edu to ask about extra information, work,
or references that he may have on the event queues paper that he was
a coauthor of.

Just saying this so other people dont just have about a dozen messages about
the same thing.

Please notice that this message is going to both freebsd-hackers and
linux-kernel, so if you reply, please remember to change the To line
appropriately.

-jason



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  2: 2: 1 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sonet.crimea.ua (OTC-sl3-FLY.CRIS.NET [212.110.136.71])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21B031504A
	for <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 02:01:14 -0700 (PDT)
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	(envelope-from stas)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:01:30 +0400 (MSD)
From: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Message-Id: <199909090801.MAA16536@sonet.crimea.ua>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: mbuf shortage situations
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> From: bmilekic@dsuper.net (Bosko Milekic)
> 	Having MGET store that null (e.g. fail as opposed to panic) on a
> M_WAIT seems fairly easy to fix, and would probably require some patching
> that would ensure that the packet loss is handeled relatively 'cleanly'
> (probably some debugging), but I wouldn't mind doing this. However, I'd
> like to know if there are objections to doing this or, in fact, if there
> are any suggestions on how to handle mbuf shortage situations (aside from
> just limiting -- although limiting is in itself a good solution and I'm
> glad that Brian F. is working on that).

I really don't like limiting as an anti-DoS method. In user-based limiting
limits have to be divided by "maximum number of users which can cooperate
to make DoS" - quite inevident number. Especially if you have many
easy-compromisable accounts - eg. shell server for a university classrooms.
In process-based limiting limits also have to be divided by max proc per user.
This results in very low, inconvenient limits.

Probably there are another methods (kernel swapping comes to mind, but
probably it is too hard to implement).

IMHO it is a good idea to develop tcp_drain() from /sys/netinet/tcp_subr.c
It should be quite intellectual to select a target - a process or a uid,
which does not read properly from it's sockets, and has many data in mbufs.

IMHO it is bad idea to drop packets, because this can be used for SPOOFING
ARBITRARY DATA into TCP stream, which is very INSECURE[1]. Same goes for
ALREADY implemented ip_drain() wich now seems to drop all fragments.

Killing a process is not a good idea too, because it allows to DoS
incorrectly developed applications. Attacker just have to feed so much
network data, that application can not process it (I have no example,
but it is easy to imagine an appplication, which spends more time to
process requiest than network to transmit - a sort of database search
or remote computing or so...).

IMHO the best solution is to drop offending connection, though is can
allow DoS too, if application can be made busy enough to not read from
sockets. But this sort of applications can be DoS-ed anyways. Good
applications have to read all their data from sockets.

All other *_drain() functions should be implemented with the same care
to determine offender and not allow DoS (/sys/netinet/in_proto.c).
There are programs which use Unix Domain sockets and ICMP for causing
DoS by mbuf starvation, if I recall correctly.
This is a flaw in a _drain() method of eliminating this DoS - we have
to find _all_ places where incorrect or hostile application can cause
kernel to allocate mbufs. And remember about DoS when adding a new
protocol or probably another code.

m_reclaim() in /sys/kern/uipc_mbuf.c should be modified to
(probably with all _drain interface) to determine correctly offending
domain and protocol. It woild be very bad thing if in reply
to frag flooding we will drop a, say, ssh connection.
Or, probably, _drain functions each have to decide - "to drain or not
to drain". IMHO 1-st way is better.

--------------------------------
[1] Theoretical algorythm to spoof arbitrary data, based on possible
flaw in ip_drain().

Requirements:
1. Ability to sniff traffic (eg, attacker is on the same Ethernet
	segment as victim)
2. quite slow connections of client to a target.

- Sniff a network to find out a sequence number and a fragmented connection.
- Wait for a moment when only one fragment (containing sensitive information)
	of a packed has arrived.
- Cause mbuf starvaition by not reading from sockets (there are a lot of
programs for it).
- kernel drops all fragments, including one from target connection.
- kill DoS-ing program
- Assemble and spoof bogus fragment instead of dropped one.

Note: The same algorythm can be used if you'll decide to drop TCP packets
instead of ACK-ing them.
Note: This algorytm is theoretical only - so probably I'm wrong.
--------------------------------

\bye
Stas

PS. Would some of you, folks, be so kind to forward this message to an
appropriate place, or just tell me about this place if I have mistaken
by sending it only to -hackers and to -security. The trouble is in that
I'm not familiar with unformal "what who does here" and "where which
talks go".



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  2:26: 6 1999
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From: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: Kip Macy <kip@lyris.com>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to follow child process in gdb 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:19:32 -0400."
             <Pine.GSO.3.96.990908200701.23944A-100000@sol.cs.binghamton.edu> 
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:24:28 +0200
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On Wed, 08 Sep 1999 20:19:32 -0400, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> I have to use attach and dettach to do so.  Does that mean I have to
> display the pid of the new process in order to follow it.  And I have to
> modify the child process so that it can wait until I can attach to it.
> That will not be as easy.

I hit my head against this wall while debugging inetd problems, so I
know how frustrating this must be for you.  If you do get any useful
feedback in private, I'm sure there are a few of us who'd greatly
appreciate followup to the list.

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  2:52: 1 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 07:54:09 +0200."
             <37D74B81.FDE66686@scc.nl> 
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Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> > I suggest to try to avoid the version bump. NetBSD-like way to do it:
> > Give new implementations another names in object files, so that they
> > don't conflict with old implementations, and preserve old
> > implementations in the library too. To make the compiler generate calls
> > to new implementations, one can add appropriate #define s in .h files.
> > For GCC, __asm__ attribute also can be used.
> 
> That still is an interface change and thus needs a version bump. How else
> do I know wich version x library has the new implementations (besides the
> larger one :-)?

No, when new functions are added into the library, and binaries linked 
with the old library will continue to work with new library, version bump 
is not required. 

This is a standard rule. It was also recently discussed on -committers 
on Aug 20 in the thread 
Re: cvs commit: src/include histedit.h src/lib/libedit Makefile editline.3 el.c el.h

>  How else
> do I know wich version x library has the new implementations (besides the
> larger one :-)?

Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print 
an error message. This is all you need.

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  3:40:14 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 4301014D4F; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 03:39:25 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:37:43 +0400 (MSD)
From: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Message-Id: <199909090937.NAA18028@sonet.crimea.ua>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199909091015.UAA02113@cheops.anu.edu.au>
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> From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
>
> In some mail from Stas Kisel, sie said:
> [...]
> > IMHO it is a good idea to develop tcp_drain() from /sys/netinet/tcp_subr.c
> > It should be quite intellectual to select a target - a process or a uid,
> > which does not read properly from it's sockets, and has many data in mbufs.
>
> The problem with this is the BSD TCP/IP implementation ACK's (or at least
> attempts to ACK) data as soon as it is received and it is a big no-no to
> discard queued data that has already been ACK'd.

It is big no-no first to diskard a packet and then to continue connection.
But we can easily send RST and drop connection (clean buffer first,
because we don't have memory ever for RST packet, or send it only with
the next packet, arrived on dropped connection, better).

And this is probably what will happen if limit is reached, too.
And in case of an evil thief had stolen Ethernet cable while connection
in progress, too :) (Just why I think RFC should permit dropping connection).




--
Stas Kisel. UNIX, security, C, TCP/IP, Web. UNIX - the best adventure game
http://www.tekmetrics.com/transcript.shtml?pid=20053 http://www.crimea.edu
+380(652)510222,230238 ; stas@crimea.edu stas@sonet.crimea.ua ; 2:460/54.4



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  3:46:34 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sonet.crimea.ua (OTC-sl3-FLY.CRIS.NET [212.110.136.71])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 67F35150BD; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 03:45:51 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:45:39 +0400 (MSD)
From: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Message-Id: <199909090945.NAA18133@sonet.crimea.ua>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, stas@sonet.crimea.ua
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
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> From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>

> The problem with this is the BSD TCP/IP implementation ACK's (or at least
> attempts to ACK) data as soon as it is received and it is a big no-no to
> discard queued data that has already been ACK'd.

Probably it is not self-evident why we HAVE to drop this connection.

It is evil connection. Good applications do read data from their sockets,
and evil ones do not. And ever if it is good, but silly or busy
application, good clients do not send so much data that application
can not process it. Am I wrong, there are any examples?


--
Stas Kisel. UNIX, security, C, TCP/IP, Web. UNIX - the best adventure game
http://www.tekmetrics.com/transcript.shtml?pid=20053 http://www.crimea.edu
+380(652)510222,230238 ; stas@crimea.edu stas@sonet.crimea.ua ; 2:460/54.4



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  3:47: 1 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2357815C70
	for <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 03:46:57 -0700 (PDT)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:46:17 -0400 (EDT)
	(envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:46:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.990909005604.958A-100000@current1.whistle.com>
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Julian Elischer wrote:

> I think he wants something like an "inverted chroot"
> (you can see out but others can't see in?
> (into all facets, e.g. process stats, etc.)

Then maybe he should begin by looking at the work Poul-Henning has done
on jail(8) code?  Is that what you're suggesting?

> 
> julian
> 
> 
> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> > 
> > > Dear gentleman,
> > > 
> > > i am a computer science student, and this semester i had to began my
> > > project to get graduated. After looking for some interesting topics on
> > > many sources, one rised up:
> > > Privacity on Shared Environments.
> > > 
> > > My ideia is to add system facilities to improve privacity for users on
> > > shared environment like, for instance, FreeBSD.
> > > 
> > > One clear example:
> > > No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> > > other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> > > (that's what i think).
> > > 
> > > There is many more thing like this, that could improve system privacity.
> > > This would be my cents to FreeBSD Project.
> > > 
> > > So, what you think about this project? Is it cool enough to be done? Is
> > > it waste of time? I would really like to have your feedback. Please,
> > > report me something.
> > > 
> > > Again: i would really enjoy hearing from you wizards what you have to
> > > say!
> > 
> > You have a little problem with our language, and it's making it
> > difficult to tell if you know enough to start hacking.  There are
> > already lots of extra security measures on FreeBSD; if you want to
> > research this, and perhaps come up with something extra, you'd certainly
> > want to look at the "pam" facility (man pam), which would probably be
> > where you'd want to do your work.
> > 
> > From your words above, it *seems* like you're saying that facilities
> > like this don't already exist; they do indeed.  Adding more is possible,
> > but you'd need to find a niche that's been overlooked.  If you just
> > started hacking without looking at what's already there, your chance of
> > getting it accepted is virtually nil.
> > 
> > We want to be willing to accept new code, but that code has to fit into
> > the architecture of FreeBSD.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> > Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
> > chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
> > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
> > Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
> > (301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
> > ---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  3:47:12 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (news.IAE.nl [194.151.64.4])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F0615065
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 03:41:15 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from marc@bowtie.nl)
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Message-Id: <199909091039.MAA06853@bowtie.nl>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams),
	"Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa) 
In-reply-to: hasty's message of Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:11:21 -0700.
	     <199909090511.WAA42489@rah.star-gate.com> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 12:39:37 +0200
From: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
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> 
> Hi Nate,
> 
> Somewhere , theres got to be a nice little email place where Unix people can talk about
> usability and ease of software. 
>
Just to toss in my 0.02 cents, I've been using exmh for a while and 
am on one hand very satisfied with it, on the other hand it's handling
of mime and html is not good, so I'd be very interested in discussing
this topic too.

I have looked at (and disliked in one way or another) xfmail, tkrat, kmail,
balsa, netscape mail, M (Mahogany), Empath (looks promising, unfortunately
vapourware at this time), Postillion (nextstep clone of tkrat), 
"Ultimate mail tool"

I have only briefly looked at the various emacs mail options.


 
-- 
----------------------------------------------------
Marc van Kempen                 BowTie Technology     
Email: marc@bowtie.nl            WWW & Databases
tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65         
fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86         http://www.bowtie.nl
----------------------------------------------------





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  4:22:11 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCE981521C
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 04:22:03 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from maex@Space.Net)
Received: (qmail 22218 invoked by uid 1013); 9 Sep 1999 11:21:09 -0000
Message-ID: <19990909132109.O5150@space.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:21:09 +0200
From: Markus Stumpf <maex-freebsd-hackers@Space.Net>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
References: <5088.936836795@localhost> <199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com> <19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 12:08:01PM +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote:
> Lots of folk use procmail, but since I'm using qmail as an MTA,
> I thought I'd see if I could use it's native methods, and it's
> really easy, with a shell script that's just a case $SENDER
> block.

It's even "easier" :-)
I subscribe new mailing lists (and resubscribed old ones) as
    maex-listname@space.net
So I have e.g.
    maex-freebsd-hackers@Space.Net
    maex-freebsd-net@Space.Net
    maex-freebsd-scsi@Space.Net
For each of those addresses I create
   .qmail-listname
files that sort it in different mailboxes:

.qmail-freebsd-hackers:
./Maildir/lists/freebsd/hackers/

.qmail-freebsd-net:
./Maildir/lists/freebsd/net/

.qmail-freebsd-scsi:
./Maildir/lists/freebsd/scsi/

> > 3. thread topic support
> The best threading mail reader that I've come across is mutt,
> but that might be too traditional for your option 1.

I think mutt works really great with qmail. With the above I have in my
.muttrc

mailboxes /home/maex/Maildir/incoming           	\
        /home/maex/Maildir/lists/freebsd/hackers        \
	/home/maex/Maildir/lists/freebsd/net   	 	\
	/home/maex/Maildir/lists/freebsd/scsi   	\
	/home/maex/Maildir/lists/freebsd/stable

# freebsd-scsi ------------------------------------------------------------
    folder-hook lists/freebsd/scsi \
	    'my_hdr From: "Markus Stumpf" <maex-lists-freebsd-scsi@Space.Net>'
    save-hook ~hmaex-lists-freebsd-scsi =lists-archives/freebsd/scsi

I have switched from ELM to mutt and qmail and with the above setup I
have noticed that the time I need for reading my emails dramatically
decreased.

I have also a .qmail-default file which controls all addresses like
maex-anything@space.net that do not have explicit controls files. If I HAVE
to use an email address somewhere out in the web e.g., I use addresses
like  maex-net-access-cnn@space.net
If I ever get spam via those addresses I can identify where they got the
address from and block/bounce/discard it via an appropriate control
file.

	\Maex

-- 
SpaceNet GmbH             |   http://www.Space.Net/   | Yeah, yo mama dresses
Research & Development    | mailto:maex-sig@Space.Net | you funny and you need
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 |  Tel: +49 (89) 32356-0    | a mouse to delete files
D-80807 Muenchen          |  Fax: +49 (89) 32356-299  |


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  4:31:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from mpp.pro-ns.net (pppdsle45.mpls.uswest.net [216.160.23.45])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5244915041
	for <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 04:31:46 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from mpp@mpp.pro-ns.net)
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	by mpp.pro-ns.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA04543;
	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
	(envelope-from mpp)
From: Mike Pritchard <mpp@FreeBSD.org>
Message-Id: <199909091119.GAA04543@mpp.pro-ns.net>
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-Reply-To: <19990908203812.A98739@holly.calldei.com> from Chris Costello at "Sep 8, 1999 08:38:12 pm"
To: chris@calldei.com
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 06:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: grios@ddsecurity.com.br (Gustavo V G C Rios),
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> On Wed, Sep 08, 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> > Dear gentleman,
> 
> > One clear example:
> > No user(but only that ones previous allowed to) should be able to see
> > other users process. This facility have to be done at kernel level,
> > (that's what i think).
> 
>    Define "see".  Access the memory?  See that it is running?
> View the argv list?  I don't see how this would affect privacy.

I used to work somewhere where we didn't wany any of the users
to know anything about any other groups of users processes.
We did this by restricting ps to only show other procs that
had the same primary group as the person executing ps.
Root and group wheel (or some equivalent) could always see
all running procs.  You could always go hunting through the
file systems, but their own directory permissions were their problem,
not ours.

This was a computing center site with several Crays, where customer names 
were kept private, and we had companies that were in competition
with each other using our machines.  The competition didn't want each
other even knowing what applications they were running, because that 
might give them some insight into what they were doing (keyword 
here: paranoid).  We might have also hacked w/who/finger/last to never 
print the host names/addresses so no one could nslookup the addresses 
and really figure out where the customers were logging in from.  This was 
to stop them from finding out the competition was also one of our customers.

So I can see situations where this might be useful, I'm not
sure that these types of customers are really going to ever
be sharing a FreeBSD machine, but you never know.

-Mike
-- 
Mike Pritchard
mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mpp.pro-ns.net


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  5: 0:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:57:13 +0200
From: Harold Gutch <logix@foobar.franken.de>
To: Markus Stumpf <maex-freebsd-hackers@Space.Net>,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
References: <5088.936836795@localhost> <199909090043.RAA39434@rah.star-gate.com> <19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home> <19990909132109.O5150@space.net>
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In-Reply-To: <19990909132109.O5150@space.net>; from Markus Stumpf on Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 01:21:09PM +0200
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 01:21:09PM +0200, Markus Stumpf wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 12:08:01PM +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote:
> > Lots of folk use procmail, but since I'm using qmail as an MTA,
> > I thought I'd see if I could use it's native methods, and it's
> > really easy, with a shell script that's just a case $SENDER
> > block.
> 
> It's even "easier" :-)
[cut long explanations]

My .procmailrc-entry:

:0:
* ^Sender:.owner-freebsd-\/[^@]+@FreeBSD.ORG
{
  LISTNAME=${MATCH}
  :0
  * LISTNAME??^\/[^@]+
  FreeBSD-lists/${MATCH}
}

My .muttrc-entry:

mailboxes `echo $HOME/Mail/FreeBSD-lists/*`

(at least that's the part for the FreeBSD lists, that line in my
.muttrc of course contains my other mailfolders as well).

Yours has the great advantage of being able to see from where
your email-address got leaked to a spammer etc., mine doesn't do
that :).

bye,
  Harold

-- 
<Shabby> Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein.
Wed Mar  4 04:53:33 CET 1998   #unix, ircnet


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  5:26:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from lily.ezo.net (lily.ezo.net [206.102.130.13])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 659F414BE1; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 05:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from jflowers@ezo.net)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:25:51 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 08:25:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Flowers <jflowers@ezo.net>
To: "Eric A. Griff" <eric@setjmp.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Sangoma Wanpipe
In-Reply-To: <00ab01befa8a$44cba460$c100000a@cfpower.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.91.990909075718.25473A-100000@lily.ezo.net>
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I am evaluating both the S508 and S508/FT1 at the present time and 
have both models running on FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE.  Had to add a fourth 
parameter to one of the function calls in ptpipe.c to get it to compile.

They appear easy to turn up and reliable.  The PPIPEMON Windows utility 
is useful with only a couple of bugs.  It has an FT1 monitor that is a 
replica of a BAT FT1.  I would guess that the onboard FT1 was designed 
by BAT.  Full source is available.

The primary weakness is the lack of technical support (depth, not 
willingness) for FreeBSD and for this reason, we may not go further with 
them.  The fbsd maintenance programs are a little buggy (ppipemon, 
ft1config) and need some tweaking.  Incorrect usage can lock up a machine 
instead of failing gracefully.  My message log is filling up with `Read 
mailbox' messages every time the card returns a response to a query.  All 
in all, probably a 95% implementation.

Incorporating the drivers into the distribution and having a FreeBSD 
sponsor to maintain the patches required for new releases would go a long 
way towards meeting our requirements for stable, standard, maintained 
code and would certainly make this well-designed synch card more popular 
in the FreeBSD community.  Plus David Mandelstam is a nice guy to do 
business with.

I can furnish the diffs for 3.2-RELEASE.

Jim Flowers <jflowers@ezo.net>
#4 ISP on C|NET, #1 in Ohio

On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Eric A. Griff wrote:
> 
>     At the same time, sangoma is short on programmers, and hasn't someone to
> devote to FreeBSD/linux.. The linux community has helped them... Dave
> 
>     I don't think it would take to much to match the tools they have for NT,
> on FreeBSD. Further, I think picoBSD could be used to make a better
> troubleshooting program on a disk that might help better help debug  issues
> between external CSU/DSU, and the wanpipe.
> 
>     I am going to give them the updated code later today, and talk about if
> it could be included in the FreeBSD distrib.. CORE: Could this be added by
> someone b4 3.3 if they agree? Would probably lead to a little more coverage
> on there home page as well.. They aren't a bad company, and the Wanpipe
> ptpipe driver worked pretty good, along with the card =)..  The main changes
> are sys/i386/isa/ptpipe.[ch], and an entry in sys/i386/conf/files.i386, and
> of course a line in the KERNEL CONFIG file.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  6: 0:42 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from gaia.euronet.nl (gaia.euronet.nl [194.134.0.10])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC3E15133
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 06:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from marcel@scc.nl)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:59:37 +0200 (CEST)
	(envelope-from marcel@scc.nl)
Message-ID: <37D7AF39.ECC65D14@scc.nl>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:59:37 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i386)
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
References: <199909090953.NAA01806@tejblum.pp.ru>
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> 
> Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> > > I suggest to try to avoid the version bump. NetBSD-like way to do it:
> > > Give new implementations another names in object files, so that they
> > > don't conflict with old implementations, and preserve old
> > > implementations in the library too. To make the compiler generate calls
> > > to new implementations, one can add appropriate #define s in .h files.
> > > For GCC, __asm__ attribute also can be used.
>
> No, when new functions are added into the library, and binaries linked
> with the old library will continue to work with new library, version bump
> is not required.
> 
> This is a standard rule. It was also recently discussed on -committers
> on Aug 20 in the thread
> Re: cvs commit: src/include histedit.h src/lib/libedit Makefile editline.3 el.c el.h

In that discussion it has been said that datatype changes require a version
change. Now you're telling me that we should implement datatype changes as
new functions which consequently don't require a version change. So now the
policy is "version bump avoidance at all cost"?
Can someone tell me why we have the freakin' version numbers?

> >  How else
> > do I know wich version x library has the new implementations (besides the
> > larger one :-)?
> 
> Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> an error message. This is all you need.

I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.

Now I know why Bruce doesn't believe in version numbers. They're probably
the most misused objects in the universe :-(

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  6:16:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 3A73B15133; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 06:15:55 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au)
Received: (from avalon@localhost)
	by cheops.anu.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA05192;
	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:15:43 +1000 (EST)
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909091315.XAA05192@cheops.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
To: stas@sonet.crimea.ua (Stas Kisel)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:15:43 +1000 (EST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, stas@sonet.crimea.ua,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199909090945.NAA18133@sonet.crimea.ua> from "Stas Kisel" at Sep 9, 99 01:45:39 pm
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In some mail from Stas Kisel, sie said:
> 
> > From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
> 
> > The problem with this is the BSD TCP/IP implementation ACK's (or at least
> > attempts to ACK) data as soon as it is received and it is a big no-no to
> > discard queued data that has already been ACK'd.
> 
> Probably it is not self-evident why we HAVE to drop this connection.
> 
> It is evil connection. Good applications do read data from their sockets,
> and evil ones do not. And ever if it is good, but silly or busy
> application, good clients do not send so much data that application
> can not process it. Am I wrong, there are any examples?

So what if someone manages to crash a program due to a DOS attack ?
An easy one that comes to mind is syslogd.  It's often stuck in disk-wait
and can easily be targetted with a large number of packets.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  6:44:47 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 8DC71152AD; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 06:44:31 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:43:26 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <37D7B90D.B252B4E6@tdx.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:41:33 +0100
From: Karl Pielorz <kpielorz@tdx.co.uk>
Organization: TDX - The Digital eXchange
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To: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Cc: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
References: <199909091315.XAA05192@cheops.anu.edu.au>
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Darren Reed wrote:

> > It is evil connection. Good applications do read data from their sockets,
> > and evil ones do not. And ever if it is good, but silly or busy
> > application, good clients do not send so much data that application
> > can not process it. Am I wrong, there are any examples?
> 
> So what if someone manages to crash a program due to a DOS attack ?
> An easy one that comes to mind is syslogd.  It's often stuck in disk-wait
> and can easily be targetted with a large number of packets.

Isn't syslog UDP? - i.e. no ACK? - you could argue (to a point) that this
might even be by design? :) (with regard to if syslog is in diskwait, and over
burdened with traffic, data gets dropped). This, could be construed as a DoS
(in fact it probably is)...

If you look to real life, not many systems are DoS proof - Most real life
scenarios work by detection and subsequent action, e.g. if you start calling
the firemen out all over town (DoS'ing the fire service) - you will hopefully
be detected, and removed :)

You could try to prevent this, by having say limits on buffers per process, or
through something like Inetd (i.e. throttling). You could even take Inetd a
stage further and say "if excessive from same IP, stop responding to that IP
for 'x' time), but even then people who are determined will only (and easily
with the current Internet) start launching multi-homed attack's DoS's etc.

How long before servers only accept connections from hosts presenting a valid
'certificate'? - How long until the certificates themselves are forged?

At the end of the day, you have 1 box with limited resources - trying to
handle the situation. Even if it's well behaved (doesn't crash) - something
has to give, i.e. the service may shutdown for a while. The sad fact is, this
is exactly what a DoS is trying to achieve, and will achieve until some
intervening action is taken, you can only slow & detect it - you can't readily
stop it - there is no 'easy' fix for this... [You could argue, SysAdmin's are
a fix? No?]

Just my $0.02+1's worth

-Karl


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  6:58:23 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 366DB14D85; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 06:58:13 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au)
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	by cheops.anu.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA05823;
	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:56:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199909091356.XAA05823@cheops.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
To: kpielorz@tdx.co.uk (Karl Pielorz)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:56:57 +1000 (EST)
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, stas@sonet.crimea.ua,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <37D7B90D.B252B4E6@tdx.co.uk> from "Karl Pielorz" at Sep 9, 99 02:41:33 pm
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In some mail from Karl Pielorz, sie said:
> 
> Darren Reed wrote:
> 
> > > It is evil connection. Good applications do read data from their sockets,
> > > and evil ones do not. And ever if it is good, but silly or busy
> > > application, good clients do not send so much data that application
> > > can not process it. Am I wrong, there are any examples?
> > 
> > So what if someone manages to crash a program due to a DOS attack ?
> > An easy one that comes to mind is syslogd.  It's often stuck in disk-wait
> > and can easily be targetted with a large number of packets.
> 
> Isn't syslog UDP? - i.e. no ACK? - you could argue (to a point) that this
> might even be by design? :) (with regard to if syslog is in diskwait, and over
> burdened with traffic, data gets dropped). This, could be construed as a DoS
> (in fact it probably is)...

sorry, syslogd doesn't suffer from the same problems that klogd on lamix
does (i.e its all datagrams).  my mistake.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  7:20:32 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:20:24 -0400
From: Branson Matheson <Branson.Matheson@FergInc.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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  - branson

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Branson Matheson       	        " If you are falling off of a mountain,
Unix Systems Manager              You may as well try to fly." 
Ferguson Enterprises, Inc.           - Delenn, Minbari Ambassador 
           ( $statements = <BRANSON> ) !~ /Corporate Opinion/;


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  7:38: 5 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from arc.hq.cti.ru (arc.hq.cti.ru [195.34.40.3])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5E8150B4
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 07:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
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Message-Id: <199909091436.SAA04752@arc.hq.cti.ru>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97
To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:59:37 +0200."
             <37D7AF39.ECC65D14@scc.nl> 
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:36:52 +0400
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
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> Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > 
> > Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> > > > I suggest to try to avoid the version bump. NetBSD-like way to do it:
> > > > Give new implementations another names in object files, so that they
> > > > don't conflict with old implementations, and preserve old
> > > > implementations in the library too. To make the compiler generate calls
> > > > to new implementations, one can add appropriate #define s in .h files.
> > > > For GCC, __asm__ attribute also can be used.
> >
> > No, when new functions are added into the library, and binaries linked
> > with the old library will continue to work with new library, version bump
> > is not required.
> > 
> > This is a standard rule. It was also recently discussed on -committers
> > on Aug 20 in the thread
> > Re: cvs commit: src/include histedit.h src/lib/libedit Makefile editline.3 el.c el.h
> 
> In that discussion it has been said that datatype changes require a version
> change. Now you're telling me that we should implement datatype changes as
> new functions which consequently don't require a version change. So now the
> policy is "version bump avoidance at all cost"?

I am not setting any policy - I am not core. I am just suggesting it 
(strongly :-)

Then, I believe that the cost here is relatively low compared to the 
benefit. libc is used by all programs, and version bumps would have 
quite severe impact. OTOH, you touch only half-dozen of functions, and 
they are not that popular, so why the change should affect all programs?

Other OSes started to avoid version bumps. Linux promises to not bump 
the libc version since glibc2. NetBSD avoid version bumps too. (Linux 
use "symbol versioning", that isn't supported by our rtld.)

> > >  How else
> > > do I know wich version x library has the new implementations (besides the
> > > larger one :-)?
> > 
> > Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> > an error message. This is all you need.
> 
> I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.

I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all, 
we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
message. Then, if an user don't have right libraries, it is his mistake.
It should not impact another people. 

Also, we are not discussing _this_. A lot of functions were added to libc
without a version bump, and it is a standard accepted practice (Just from 
top of my head: strlcpy, strlcat, mkstemps, strsignal, fseeko, ftello,
poll, nanosleep, pread, pwrite, kld*, ... ouch, there is a lot of 
other functions).

My suggestion have more serious disadvantages. For one, it add more 
work to you (the person who change an interface). But it save some work 
to everyone who will ever upgrade FreeBSD or deal with a 3rd party 
software. Then, say, dlsym(,"setjmp") will give probably incorrect result.
But "you cannot have everything" and noone, I hope, will use such dlsym. 

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  8: 9: 2 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:07:20 -0400
	(envelope-from jared)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 11:07:20 -0400
From: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.Nether.net>
To: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Message-ID: <19990909110720.A6694@puck.nether.net>
Mail-Followup-To: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>,
	avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
References: <199909091015.UAA02113@cheops.anu.edu.au> <199909090945.NAA18133@sonet.crimea.ua>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 01:45:39PM +0400, Stas Kisel wrote:
> > From: Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>
> 
> > The problem with this is the BSD TCP/IP implementation ACK's (or at least
> > attempts to ACK) data as soon as it is received and it is a big no-no to
> > discard queued data that has already been ACK'd.
> 
> Probably it is not self-evident why we HAVE to drop this connection.
> 
> It is evil connection. Good applications do read data from their sockets,
> and evil ones do not. And ever if it is good, but silly or busy
> application, good clients do not send so much data that application
> can not process it. Am I wrong, there are any examples?

	(I have a program that is built to process this all, and
works well on the non *bsd unicies, and has had a few problems on
the *bsd based ones.. read on...)

	I posted a message on bugtraq related to this, and archive
related mail to -current links are here:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=340672+354590+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-current/19980524.freebsd-current
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=246072+248435+/usr/local/www/db/text/1998/freebsd-current/19980524.freebsd-current

	Now the problems that I have are partially design issues
in my program, and partially not.

	I am creating about 100 icmp sockets, and as they are
created, allocate a very large SO_RCVBUF:
        (void)setsockopt(localstruct->icmp_s, SOL_SOCKET,
                SO_RCVBUF, (char *)&hold, sizeof(hold));
	
	Where hold = (60*300) ie: hold 300 packets.  Because I can
be sending 100 icmp echo-requests out in a second, I can get at least 
that many replies back, if not more if some come out of order or
delayed by more than 1 second.  I also need to filter through all
the icmp traffic that is coming to the system.  (You can see
my code, and comments are welcome to me directly, code
available from ftp://puck.nether.net/pub/jared/sysmon* [if possible,
my -current is in jared/beta/*, use that, but there have been little
changes to that code currently]).

	I would get out of mbufs, increase maxusers.  Either my code
is less agressive than originally, or something has changed in
some of the freebsd releases since then, even slightly to prevent this
from currently happening.  I'm not sure which.  NetBSD also suffers
from this problem, and is more evident than FreeBSD right now.

	- Jared



 
	
-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net
clue++;      | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.
END OF LINE  |


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  8:51: 4 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sonet.crimea.ua (OTC-sl3-FLY.CRIS.NET [212.110.136.71])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 23BC114C1C; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 08:47:50 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from stas@sonet.crimea.ua)
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	by sonet.crimea.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24055;
	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:47:49 +0400 (MSD)
	(envelope-from stas)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:47:49 +0400 (MSD)
From: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Message-Id: <199909091447.SAA24055@sonet.crimea.ua>
To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, stas@sonet.crimea.ua
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199909091315.XAA05192@cheops.anu.edu.au>
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> From avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au Thu Sep  9 16:17:27 1999

> > Probably it is not self-evident why we HAVE to drop this connection.
>
> So what if someone manages to crash a program due to a DOS attack ?
> An easy one that comes to mind is syslogd.  It's often stuck in disk-wait
> and can easily be targetted with a large number of packets.

1. If ever syslog used (or will use) TCP, it should drop the connection
which is logging data too quickly.
OS shouldn't kill process, only drop connection. So no crash.
More examples?

2. udp_drain() may either drop all packets or intellectually select
"offending" socket and try to avoid deletion of "right" packets and
simplifying spoofing. RFC allows 1st way, but 2-nd can improve OS.

3. Another idea. Apart from the *_drain() method. Probably I ever will
try to implement it somedays (quite low probability, though).
Set TCP window in a packets according to really available kernel
memory. Available memory should be distributed non-uniformly
between maximum number of sockets. So 1-st socket has window=
=64k-still_not_read_data, and 1024-th has window=MIN_WINDOW-
-still_not_read_data. 
MIN_WINDOW should be determined for max efficiency. About 2k.
Distribution can not be linear - it isapproximately like min(NORM*1/x,64k).
Exactly it can be determined via functional equation. Something like
\integral_0^maxsockets{dist(x)dx}=kernel_memory and several
conditions. (sorry for my poor TeX).

In a case of attack new sockets will be created with a very small
window - about 2k.

Please blame me as much as possible - probably I have missed some significant
detail.
Probably all this math suxx and the best is a "stair" function -
somebody already works on lowering TCP window, if I didn't mistaken.


--
Stas Kisel. UNIX, security, C, TCP/IP, Web. UNIX - the best adventure game
http://www.tekmetrics.com/transcript.shtml?pid=20053 http://www.crimea.edu
+380(652)510222,230238 ; stas@crimea.edu stas@sonet.crimea.ua ; 2:460/54.4



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  9:21:44 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-ID: <37D7DE68.5441D879@scc.nl>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:20:56 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i386)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
References: <199909091436.SAA04752@arc.hq.cti.ru>
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> 
> Other OSes started to avoid version bumps. Linux promises to not bump
> the libc version since glibc2.

Yes, we now have a multitude of patches floating around for all those
glibc2 binaries that just won't work on glibc2.1. Instead of a simple and
intuitive message like "libfoo version X missing" we now seem to have
advanced to the Microsoft way of dealing with problems: crash and let the
user figure it out.

The switch from libc5 to glibc2 was more clear. Binaries simply don't work
if you don't have the right libraries. How painful that can be, it's still
preferable over a segfault, because you solve that problem by installing
the libraries and not by patching things up (if at all possible) all over
system.

> > > Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> > > an error message. This is all you need.
> >
> > I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> > tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.
> 
> I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all,
> we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
> message.

I hope not, because not all unresolved references are due to library
version mismatches. Adding such a suggestion is just plain silly.
Complicating the semantic meaning of an otherwise clear and simple message
is not the solution.

> Then, if an user don't have right libraries, it is his mistake.

Wrong. You expect the user to know which libraries are required by all his
binaries. He doesn't care (and right he is). You also don't want a
situation in which every application ships his own version of libraries.
That's a good way to destroy a working configuration (again, just look at
Microsoft).

> Also, we are not discussing _this_. A lot of functions were added to libc
> without a version bump, and it is a standard accepted practice (Just from
> top of my head: strlcpy, strlcat, mkstemps, strsignal, fseeko, ftello,
> poll, nanosleep, pread, pwrite, kld*, ... ouch, there is a lot of
> other functions).

I'm not adding functions, I'm changing a well known and frequently used
datatype.

> My suggestion have more serious disadvantages. For one, it add more
> work to you (the person who change an interface). But it save some work
> to everyone who will ever upgrade FreeBSD or deal with a 3rd party
> software. Then, say, dlsym(,"setjmp") will give probably incorrect result.
> But "you cannot have everything" and noone, I hope, will use such dlsym.

Your suggestion has more impact than that. It violates POLA. In all case a
certain function is called `foo' except in the library where it resides,
where it is called `bar'. I can imagine programmers to get really confused
when their linker starts complaining about function `bar' and they simply
can't find a reference to `bar' in their entire code base.

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  9:43: 7 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (ns.mt.sri.com [206.127.79.91])
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:23 -0600
Message-Id: <199909091642.KAA03695@mt.sri.com>
From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams),
	"Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa) 
In-Reply-To: <199909091039.MAA06853@bowtie.nl>
References: <199909090511.WAA42489@rah.star-gate.com>
	<199909091039.MAA06853@bowtie.nl>
X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid
Reply-To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
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> Just to toss in my 0.02 cents, I've been using exmh for a while and 
> am on one hand very satisfied with it, on the other hand it's handling
> of mime and html is not good, so I'd be very interested in discussing
> this topic too.

VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)

Mime handling works, but is clumsy, and HTML is almost non-existent.



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  9:50: 6 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 04/14/1999
To: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
Cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams),
	"Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 12:39:37 +0200."
             <199909091039.MAA06853@bowtie.nl> 
From: bmah@CA.Sandia.GOV (Bruce A. Mah)
Reply-To: bmah@CA.Sandia.GOV
X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5<Pi&akO)o^8;[r
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--==_Exmh_-926735252P
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

If memory serves me right, Marc van Kempen wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Nate,
> > 
> > Somewhere , theres got to be a nice little email place where Unix people ca
> n talk about
> > usability and ease of software. 
> >
> Just to toss in my 0.02 cents, I've been using exmh for a while and 
> am on one hand very satisfied with it, on the other hand it's handling
> of mime and html is not good, so I'd be very interested in discussing
> this topic too.

I weigh in with the exmh crowd.  We've been hoping to cut a 2.1.0
release Real Soon Now for most of the (Northern Hemisphere) summer, I
think we'll get there Real Soon Now.  2.1.0 will have better PGP and GPG
support, among other things.  I fear it may be starting to suffer from
feeping creaturitis.

I've actually been pretty happy with the way that exmh deals with MIME
and HTML, so I'd be interested to hear what you think needs improvement
(maybe by private email if you don't want to clog the list any more than
it is already).

(For the record, the other mailers I've used before exmh were 
/usr/bin/mail and VM.)

Bruce.





--==_Exmh_-926735252P
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
MessageID: YlkyzeNQ+XN6m1fjscjm6tYUHFf5v38m

iQA/AwUBN9flJdjKMXFboFLDEQK0vQCgw6R53HZFoT+Ba/ld/h4ccStQ97oAmgOs
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=O5W4
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--==_Exmh_-926735252P--


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9  9:56:34 1999
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
In-Reply-To: <37D7DE68.5441D879@scc.nl>
References: <199909091436.SAA04752@arc.hq.cti.ru>
	<37D7DE68.5441D879@scc.nl>
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> > > I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> > > tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.
> > 
> > I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all,
> > we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
> > message.

For what it's worth, I agree with Marcel.  Version bumps should be
discouraged, but not totally avoided.  Carrying around old libraries
with older version numbers is *hardly* a burden for the users, and those
folks who are running old versions of FreeBSD will not be effected at
all since they will continue to keep the old libraries around.

I say a version bump is the better solution, since the linker will 'Do
The Right Thing'.  Yes, we shouldn't version bump every time someone has
a whim, ending up with 10 version bumps/week, but neither should we
avoid them altogether and cause the Linux syndrome of programs refusing
to work because they have the *wrong* version of glibc2.3 (or
whatever)....



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10: 1:27 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145])
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.Nether.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 11:07:20 EDT."
             <19990909110720.A6694@puck.nether.net> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> 	I would get out of mbufs, increase maxusers.  Either my code
> is less agressive than originally, or something has changed in
> some of the freebsd releases since then, even slightly to prevent this
> from currently happening.  I'm not sure which.  NetBSD also suffers
> from this problem, and is more evident than FreeBSD right now.

Maxusers was bumped in the FreeBSD GENERIC kernel, partly to deal with 
situations like yours where the old default was simply too small.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:35:14 1999
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References: <199909090144.SAA02454@rhapture.apple.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:34:29 -0400
To: justin@apple.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
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At 6:44 PM -0700 9/8/99, Justin C. Walker wrote:
>From the FWIW department, we have, in the Darwin source, an
>implementation of a "select replacement" that is designed to get
>around some of the (perceived or real) issues with select(), e.g.,
>looking at a long (FD_SETSIZE or larger) array of bits several
>times in the kernel and in user space.
>
>In the available sources, this is represented in sys/ev.h, and is
>implemented only for sockets.  Our tests indicate a roughly 5-10%
>speed improvement when a lot of sockets are in use but not
>exuberantly so.

This sounds like it will be interesting.  If this works out, would
it translate to the other *BSD's fairly easily?  When you say
"select replacement", do you mean select disappears from the system,
or just that this will be an alternative to using select?


---
Garance Alistair Drosehn           =   gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer          or  drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:37:42 1999
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Message-Id: <199909091456.QAA05709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: damn ATX power supplies...
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:56:12 +0200 (MET DST)
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hi,

any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
options:

	Disabled
		no automatic restart on power failure
	Timer
		restart at a given time of the day.

none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...

	cheers
	luigi
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------
  Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it  . Dip. di Ing. dell'Informazione
  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/  . Universita` di Pisa
  TEL/FAX: +39-050-568.533/522     . via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)

		  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ngc99/
====  First International Workshop on Networked Group Communication  ====
-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:43:21 1999
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To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 16:56:12 +0200."
             <199909091456.QAA05709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> 
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> any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> options:
> 
> 	Disabled
> 		no automatic restart on power failure

You _should_ be able to change this.

> none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...

You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
will come up...

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:43:37 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:43:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies...
In-Reply-To: <199909091456.QAA05709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Luigi Rizzo wrote:

> hi,
> 
> any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> options:
> 
> 	Disabled
> 		no automatic restart on power failure
> 	Timer
> 		restart at a given time of the day.

I have a new machine here (don't recall which BIOS, haven't seen it in
awhile) that has the ATX settings in two different places.  Only one
of them had the option for Last Setting.  IIRC one was in power management
and one was in either the advanced settings or in someplace stupid like
peripheral settings.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
       # include <std/disclaimers.h>                   TEAM-OS2
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:49:12 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Cc: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>,
	Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:56:05 CST."
             <199909091656.KAA03831@mt.sri.com> 
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 19:46:55 +0200
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On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:56:05 CST, Nate Williams wrote:

> Yes, we shouldn't version bump every time someone has a whim, ending
> up with 10 version bumps/week, but neither should we avoid them
> altogether and cause the Linux syndrome of programs refusing to work
> because they have the *wrong* version of glibc2.3 (or whatever)....

This is starting to sound like what would help is tighter release
management. If changes were held back long enough for a single version
bump to cover multiple changes, the situation would be improved.

Of course, how practical that kind of management is, is another story.
One idea I can think of is to keep track of changes to HEAD that really
do require a version bump, without actually bumping version. When
multiple changes are merged back to RELENG_3 at the same time, the
version bump takes place.

So you end up reducing the frequency of your bumps. Smoother ride for
everyone but the poor bastard who has to track changes more carefully.

Ciao,
Sheldon.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 10:55: 2 1999
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
In-Reply-To: <199909090144.SAA02454@rhapture.apple.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:53:57 -0700
From: "Justin C. Walker" <justin@apple.com>
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> From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
> Date: 1999-09-09 10:33:59 -0700
> To: justin@apple.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: message queues for I/O (usenix paper)
> In-reply-to: <199909090144.SAA02454@rhapture.apple.com>
> X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu
>
> At 6:44 PM -0700 9/8/99, Justin C. Walker wrote:
> >From the FWIW department, we have, in the Darwin source, an
> >implementation of a "select replacement" that is designed to get
> >around some of the (perceived or real) issues with select(), e.g., 
> >looking at a long (FD_SETSIZE or larger) array of bits several
> >times in the kernel and in user space.
> >
> >In the available sources, this is represented in sys/ev.h, and is 
> >implemented only for sockets.  Our tests indicate a roughly 5-10% 
> >speed improvement when a lot of sockets are in use but not
> >exuberantly so.
>
> This sounds like it will be interesting.  If this works out, would 
> it translate to the other *BSD's fairly easily?  When you say
> "select replacement", do you mean select disappears from the system, 
> or just that this will be an alternative to using select?

We didn't do much to the existing code except to add the system  
calls, update some structures (proc and socket) with event record  
queues, and add the calls to do the work whereever an event was  
noticed.  As long as other BSDs haven't changed these areas  
significantly, there should be little problem (it sez here...).

One note: in order to make this fast, and to avoid resource problems  
during use, the event records are not dynamically allocated, and  
there's only one per event source.  These are dynamically updated  
when on a queue, so you don't end up with allocation failures or  
really long queues.

As for 'select()', we'd have to be crazy (:-}) to eliminate that  
call.  After all, we want folks to port code into our system with  
relative ease.  The call remains; the event scheme is an alternative  
for those that want to use it.  Its use is intended to match that of  
select(), so that developers don't have to restructure existing code  
to use it.

Regards,

Justin

--
Justin C. Walker, Curmudgeon-At-Large *
Institute for General Semantics       |
Manager, CoreOS Networking            |   Men are from Earth.
Apple Computer, Inc.                  |   Women are from Earth.
2 Infinite Loop                       |       Deal with it.
Cupertino, CA 95014                   |
*-------------------------------------*-------------------------------*


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11: 2: 3 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:01:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
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There is a short but sweet[1] article on ZDNet today regarding FreeBSD:

http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/0,3656,2324624,00.html

Not too in-depth, but it gives a good quick overview, calling FreeBSD a
true Unix, emphasizing it's history compared to Linux.

-----
Chris D. Faulhaber <jedgar@fxp.org> | All the true gurus I've met never
System/Network Administrator,       | claimed they were one and always
Reality Check Information, Inc.     | pointed to someone better.




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:17:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Fumerola <billf@jade.chc-chimes.com>
To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: More press
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[redirected to -advocacy where this belonged first off]

On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:

> There is a short but sweet[1] article on ZDNet today regarding FreeBSD:
> 
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/0,3656,2324624,00.html
> 
> Not too in-depth, but it gives a good quick overview, calling FreeBSD a
> true Unix, emphasizing it's history compared to Linux.

From a link on that page:

  At this point, for most purposes, there's no real difference between Linux 
  and BSD. Neither one is necessarily better than the other. You should choose 
  based on your own preferences and what kind of support is available to you. 

-- 
- bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp -
- ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org  -






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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:17:29 1999
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To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:35:52 MST."
             <199909091735.KAA00703@dingo.cdrom.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 02:16:32 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> > any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> > outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> > panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> > options:
> > 
> > 	Disabled
> > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> 
> You _should_ be able to change this.
> 
> > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> 
> You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> will come up...

The magic wire is on pin 14, usually the only green wire.  Cut the lead and
connect the power supply side of it to ground and the ATX power supply will
stay on permanently.  I'm using this on two systems that will not restart
after AC power loss.

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:22:17 1999
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To: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 13:43:29 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909091341210.23207-100000@paprika.michvhf.com> 
From: bmah@CA.Sandia.GOV (Bruce A. Mah)
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If memory serves me right, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Luigi Rizzo wrote:

> > any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> > outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> > panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> > options:
> > 
> > 	Disabled
> > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> > 	Timer
> > 		restart at a given time of the day.
> 
> I have a new machine here (don't recall which BIOS, haven't seen it in
> awhile) that has the ATX settings in two different places.  Only one
> of them had the option for Last Setting.  IIRC one was in power management
> and one was in either the advanced settings or in someplace stupid like
> peripheral settings.

I just got a few machines with ASUS P3B-F motherboards.  Their BIOS
(AwardBIOS) has a setting called "AC PWR Loss Restart", which claims to
control "whether or not to restart the system after AC Power Loss".
A quick, one-repetition test, shows that this does indeed do the trick.

Bruce.






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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:31:23 1999
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 18:20:56 +0200."
             <37D7DE68.5441D879@scc.nl> 
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> Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > 
> > Other OSes started to avoid version bumps. Linux promises to not bump
> > the libc version since glibc2.
> 
> Yes, we now have a multitude of patches floating around for all those
> glibc2 binaries that just won't work on glibc2.1. Instead of a simple and
> intuitive message like "libfoo version X missing" we now seem to have
> advanced to the Microsoft way of dealing with problems: crash and let the
> user figure it out.

FUD. Every particular compatibility problem caused by a particular 
change. Please tell which problem is caused by which change, and we all 
will remember to not make this mistake.

(FWIW, even bugfixes that in theory don't require even minor version 
bumps, are known to cause compatibility problems. For example: vfork() 
is documented (and always was documented) to share address space. In 
practice, i didn't share the address space for a very long time. When 
FreeBSD implemented "real" vfork(), some programs broke - they actually 
assumed non-shared address space. The sources were fixed, but old 
binaries, of course, left broken. NetBSD instead added "real vfork" as 
syscall with new number, so old binaries continued to use old vfork 
that doesn't share address space.

It is amusing that a less popular OS (NetBSD) cares about compatibility 
more than a more popular OS (FreeBSD). I guess, we can learn from them 
here. (Well, I have never seen running NetBSD, perhaps if I will see it 
I will be disappointed))

> 
> The switch from libc5 to glibc2 was more clear. Binaries simply don't work
> if you don't have the right libraries. How painful that can be, it's still
> preferable over a segfault, because you solve that problem by installing
> the libraries and not by patching things up (if at all possible) all over
> system.
> 
> > > > Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> > > > an error message. This is all you need.
> > >
> > > I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> > > tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.
> > 
> > I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all,
> > we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
> > message.
> 
> I hope not, because not all unresolved references are due to library
> version mismatches. Adding such a suggestion is just plain silly.
> Complicating the semantic meaning of an otherwise clear and simple message
> is not the solution.

Actually, almost all such messages from rtld are due to library version 
mismatches. 

> > Then, if an user don't have right libraries, it is his mistake.
> 
> Wrong. You expect the user to know which libraries are required by all his
> binaries. He doesn't care (and right he is). You also don't want a
> situation in which every application ships his own version of libraries.
> That's a good way to destroy a working configuration (again, just look at
> Microsoft).

It is other way around. I don't want half of FreeBSD binaries linked 
with libc.so.3 and half is linked with libc.so.4. I don't want users to 
care which libc is required for his binaries. I don't want every 
application is shipped with the version of libc the application want. I 
want one libc (latest) to work with all binaries correctly. I claim it 
is desirable, technically possible and not that difficult. (Just as a 
related example: one kernel support all binaries, why libc should be 
different?)

> > Also, we are not discussing _this_. A lot of functions were added to libc
> > without a version bump, and it is a standard accepted practice (Just from
> > top of my head: strlcpy, strlcat, mkstemps, strsignal, fseeko, ftello,
> > poll, nanosleep, pread, pwrite, kld*, ... ouch, there is a lot of
> > other functions).
> 
> I'm not adding functions, I'm changing a well known and frequently used
> datatype.

Uhh. There is two different points:
(1) You should not bump library version when you add new function (or 
    do a non-interface change).
(2) Other changes, in particular the sigset_t changes, can/should be done 
    by just adding new functions.
All your previous arguments are arguments against (1), right? I still hope
to start discuss (2)... 

> > My suggestion have more serious disadvantages. For one, it add more
> > work to you (the person who change an interface). But it save some work
> > to everyone who will ever upgrade FreeBSD or deal with a 3rd party
> > software. Then, say, dlsym(,"setjmp") will give probably incorrect result.
> > But "you cannot have everything" and noone, I hope, will use such dlsym.
> 
> Your suggestion has more impact than that. It violates POLA. In all case a
> certain function is called `foo' except in the library where it resides,
> where it is called `bar'. I can imagine programmers to get really confused
> when their linker starts complaining about function `bar' and they simply
> can't find a reference to `bar' in their entire code base.

I didn't invent the idea. NetBSD do it for a long time. Also, have a 
look at <arpa/inet.h> some day. Don't rename 'foo' to 'bar'. Rename 
'foo' to, say, '__foo40', so programmers will get idea that something 
wrong with 'foo'. Seriously, I am a programmer and I will not be 
confused. Programmers are supposed to read system .h files.

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:51:40 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 20:51:27 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
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To: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
	Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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Sheldon Hearn wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:56:05 CST, Nate Williams wrote:
> 
> > Yes, we shouldn't version bump every time someone has a whim, ending
> > up with 10 version bumps/week, but neither should we avoid them
> > altogether and cause the Linux syndrome of programs refusing to work
> > because they have the *wrong* version of glibc2.3 (or whatever)....
> 
> This is starting to sound like what would help is tighter release
> management. If changes were held back long enough for a single version
> bump to cover multiple changes, the situation would be improved.

I'm more tempted to revert to the major/minor versioning. Every change
triggers a minor version bump, but only if the library is still backwards
compatible with minor version 0 and the same major version. Otherwise a
major version bump is required.

This only works if the dynamic linker uses a slightly different approach
when linking:
Linking is performed in such a way that if a program is linked against
version x.y of libfoo, then every libfoo with version x.z and z>=y is a
valid candidate. If there're more than one candidates, then the linker can
pick any of them, but preferable the latest (for example).

I don't really mind if we get libraries like libfoo.2.384. It's just like
rcs revisions. It gives you information that can help in tracking and
solving problems. Heck, you can even add an option to ldconfig to remove
all libraries but the latest with a given major version...

Ah, well... so much for this brainwave :-)

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 11:56:33 1999
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>,
	Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>,
	Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
In-Reply-To: <37D801AF.2B97E791@scc.nl>
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	<37D801AF.2B97E791@scc.nl>
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> > > Yes, we shouldn't version bump every time someone has a whim, ending
> > > up with 10 version bumps/week, but neither should we avoid them
> > > altogether and cause the Linux syndrome of programs refusing to work
> > > because they have the *wrong* version of glibc2.3 (or whatever)....
> > 
> > This is starting to sound like what would help is tighter release
> > management. If changes were held back long enough for a single version
> > bump to cover multiple changes, the situation would be improved.
> 
> I'm more tempted to revert to the major/minor versioning.

ELF has no minor revision number (IMO a mistake, but it's not my call).



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 12:11:15 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:10:07 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-reply-to: <199909091119.GAA04543@mpp.pro-ns.net>
To: Mike Pritchard <mpp@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999, Mike Pritchard wrote:
> I used to work somewhere where we didn't wany any of the users
> to know anything about any other groups of users processes.
> We did this by restricting ps to only show other procs that
> had the same primary group as the person executing ps.
> Root and group wheel (or some equivalent) could always see
> all running procs.  You could always go hunting through the
> file systems, but their own directory permissions were their problem,
> not ours.

   It would be trivial, in FreeBSD.  Simply hack a few lines of
VFS code in procfs to change permissions from

(S_IRUSR | S_IRGRP | S_IROTH | S_IXUSR | S_IXGRP | S_IXOTH)

to

(S_IRUSR | S_IRGRP | S_IXUSR | S_IXGRP)
           ^^^^^^^             ^^^^^^^
           Optional; if you don't want people in the same group
           seeing processes, do not use these permissions.

   I haven't looked into it, but it should be rather trivial, if
such security is important.

> -Mike
> -- 
> Mike Pritchard
> mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mpp.pro-ns.net
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|Feet Smell?  Nose Run?  Hey, you're upside down! 
`-------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 12:14:19 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:07:10 +0200
From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com,
	"Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Subject: Re: CS Project
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* Daniel O'Connor (doconnor@gsoft.com.au) [990909 07:15]:
>On 09-Sep-99 Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
>> > I would not be able to see any other proccess which i am not the
>> > owner, top would indicated, only 8 proccess, for this current scenario.
>> > 
>> > Linux already have such a facility!
>
>Hack ps and turn off procfs :)

I think a sysctl would in order to switch this behaviour on or off.
Some people prefer total obscurity, others don't give a dime about
whether or not mary sees that jim is running a make.

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai                  asmodai(at)wxs.nl
The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project <http://home.wxs.nl/~asmodai>
Network/Security Specialist        BSD: Technical excellence at its best
Unto the pure all things are pure.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 12:38:43 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:38:07 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
	Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>,
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Subject: Re: CS Project
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Julian Elischer wrote:

> I think he wants something like an "inverted chroot"
> (you can see out but others can't see in?
> (into all facets, e.g. process stats, etc.)
> 

It sounds like a "FreeBSD VM", VM taken to mean virtual machine. Anybody
in such a 'jar' would not notice (be able to notice) the existence of
others at all. 

With somedata hiding and given file systems mounted only in such a 'jar'
the ones in it would have no way of telling.

> julian
> 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 12:43:58 1999
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From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: CS Project
In-reply-to: <Pine.BSF.3.96.990909222730.30127B-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Cc: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>,
	Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>,
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999, Narvi wrote:
> It sounds like a "FreeBSD VM", VM taken to mean virtual machine. Anybody
> in such a 'jar' would not notice (be able to notice) the existence of
> others at all. 
> 
> With somedata hiding and given file systems mounted only in such a 'jar'
> the ones in it would have no way of telling.

   In Texas we call that a chroot.

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|It takes an extra touch of stupidity to spill a drink
|in electronics.                          -- Anonymous
`-----------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 13:31:49 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Cc: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:56:05 MDT."
             <199909091656.KAA03831@mt.sri.com> 
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> For what it's worth, I agree with Marcel.  Version bumps should be
> discouraged, but not totally avoided. 

What is the reason to not avoid the version bump?

> Carrying around old libraries
> with older version numbers is *hardly* a burden for the users, and those
> folks who are running old versions of FreeBSD will not be effected at
> all since they will continue to keep the old libraries around.

Version bumps are problem for vendors and users of binary-only 
products (vendors usually request users to install old libraries),
users of obsolete versions of FreeBSD (who cannot get a binary linked 
with their libc, and has no chances to make them running), and people 
who maintain a lot of FreeBSD boxes running different versions of 
FreeBSD, who will have to build their own binaries several times.

I hate old libraries because they are binary-only programs without a 
maintainer. Old libraries are difficult if not impossible to fix or 
improve. For (quite benign) example, look at PR bin/13623.

> Yes, we shouldn't version bump every time someone has
> a whim, ending up with 10 version bumps/week, but neither should we
> avoid them altogether and cause the Linux syndrome of programs refusing
> to work because they have the *wrong* version of glibc2.3 (or
> whatever)....

If we do it right, we will not suffer from the syndrome. If Linux is 
broken - throw it away ;-)

It goes without saying that changes in existing interfaces must include 
a version bump. Conclusion: don't change any existing interface. This 
rule is followed in the kernel, which survived conversion of off_t from 
32 to 64 bit. It can be followed in libc.

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 13:38:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:12:19 +0200
From: Nicolas Souchu <nsouch@free.fr>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa (fwd)
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On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 05:43:17PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote:
>
>> 3. Needlessly cross-posted (watch your cc lines, loser! :).
>
>On a different topic, does anyone know of a good  X mailer
>(currently I am using exmh) :
>
>1. user friendly
>2. filtering capability
>3. thread topic support
>
>
>Kind of like Netscape's mail reader however I hate to bring up
>netscape to just read my mail so I am looking for something a little
>bit smaller foot print 8)
>
>	Tnks!
>
>

I love 'mutt' for all of your requirements.

Nicholas.

-- 
nsouch@free.fr / nsouch@freebsd.org
FreeBSD - Turning PCs into workstations - http://www.FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 13:38:13 1999
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	Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
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> > For what it's worth, I agree with Marcel.  Version bumps should be
> > discouraged, but not totally avoided. 
> 
> What is the reason to not avoid the version bump?

Because if you don't have the latest/greatest library (old machines),
newer programs that are compiled against the latest/greatest will refuse
to work, even though the user is using the correct 'version' of the
library.

As Marcel pointed out, the violates POLA.  If you are running the wrong
version of the library, the system should complain about it.

Version bumps aren't the spawn of the devil, but they should be avoided
else we end up with libc.so.234456, like in NetBSD. :(

> > Carrying around old libraries
> > with older version numbers is *hardly* a burden for the users, and those
> > folks who are running old versions of FreeBSD will not be effected at
> > all since they will continue to keep the old libraries around.
> 
> Version bumps are problem for vendors and users of binary-only 
> products (vendors usually request users to install old libraries),

Why is this a problem?  It's the *exact* same problem as faced above,
except that there is no indication there is a problem because the
version number is correct.

> users of obsolete versions of FreeBSD (who cannot get a binary linked 
> with their libc, and has no chances to make them running)

Specious argument.  FreeBSD has *always* provided backward compatability
libraries.  We've still got compatability libraries from FreeBSD 1.

> and people 
> who maintain a lot of FreeBSD boxes running different versions of 
> FreeBSD, who will have to build their own binaries several times.

They'll have to do this anyway, unless they build it on the 'oldest' box
available, at which point the binary will work on all of the newer boxes
anyway because of the compatability libraries.

> I hate old libraries because they are binary-only programs without a 
> maintainer. Old libraries are difficult if not impossible to fix or 
> improve. For (quite benign) example, look at PR bin/13623.

Old binaries are binary-only programs w/out a maintainer as well.  This
is just pure silliness.  If you want a 'fix', then rebuild/relink your
application.  This is trivial to do.

> It goes without saying that changes in existing interfaces must include 
> a version bump. Conclusion: don't change any existing interface.

Wrong, then the kernel and/or source ends up being so bloated with 'old
interfaces' for *NO GOOD REASON* that the software becomes
un-maintainable.

Forward progress means that sometimes you change existing interfaces
when the pain in doing so is so small to be inconsequential, which is
the case with shlibs.




Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 13:49:43 1999
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From: Kip Macy <kip@lyris.com>
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To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to follow child process in gdb
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This appears to be an oversight on the developers of gdb's part, but
direct from the info page:


   GDB has no special support for debugging programs which create
additional processes using the `fork' function.  When a program forks,
GDB will continue to debug the parent process and the child process
will run unimpeded.  If you have set a breakpoint in any code which the
child then executes, the child will get a `SIGTRAP' signal which
(unless it catches the signal) will cause it to terminate.

   However, if you want to debug the child process there is a workaround
which isn't too painful.  Put a call to `sleep' in the code which the
child process executes after the fork.  It may be useful to sleep only
if a certain environment variable is set, or a certain file exists, so
that the delay need not occur when you don't want to run GDB on the
child.  While the child is sleeping, use the `ps' program to get its
process ID.  Then tell GDB (a new invocation of GDB if you are also
debugging the parent process) to attach to the child process (see *Note
Attach::).  From that point on you can debug the child process just
like any other process which you attached to.



On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:

> On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Kip Macy wrote:
> 
> > You need to detach from your current process and attach to the spawned
> > process. It might make it easier to attach in a timely fashion if you put
> > a 3 second sleep in right after the fork. This would all be easiest using
> > something like DDD where DDD will tell you what other processes are
> > running with the same name, and allow you to attach to them through the
> > GUI.
> 
> In dbx on a Sun workstation, all I need to do to follow a child process
> after fork() is to use the following command in advance:
> 
> (dbx)dbxenv follow_fork_mode child
> 
> Your response suggests that I can not achieve the same result simply by
> using (I am using gdb 4.18):
> 
> (gdb)set follow-fork-mode child
> 
> I have to use attach and dettach to do so.  Does that mean I have to
> display the pid of the new process in order to follow it.  And I have to
> modify the child process so that it can wait until I can attach to it.
> That will not be as easy.
> 
> -Zhihui
> 
> 
> > 
> > 	
> > 
> > On Wed, 8 Sep 1999, Zhihui Zhang wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I am using gdb 4.18 on FreeBSD-current.  The program being debugged
> > > consists of two small files: test1.c and test2.c.  The main() in test1.c
> > > has a call to fork() and for the child process case, it will call a
> > > routine, say test(), in test2.c. 
> > > 
> > > I use "set follow-fork-mode child", "break fork", "step" command trying to
> > > access the source in test2.c without success.  The program is compiled
> > > with "cc -g test1.c test2.c" and I run gdb with "gdb a.out".
> > > 
> > > If there is no fork(), a call from test1.c to a routine in test2.c will
> > > bring up the source of test2.c if I step that routine.  Why it does not
> > > work with fork()?  Am I missing something?
> > > 
> 
> 
> 




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 14:38: 0 1999
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From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> 
> > Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > >
> > > Other OSes started to avoid version bumps. Linux promises to not bump
> > > the libc version since glibc2.
> >
> > Yes, we now have a multitude of patches floating around for all those
> > glibc2 binaries that just won't work on glibc2.1. Instead of a simple and
> > intuitive message like "libfoo version X missing" we now seem to have
> > advanced to the Microsoft way of dealing with problems: crash and let the
> > user figure it out.
> 
> FUD. Every particular compatibility problem caused by a particular
> change. Please tell which problem is caused by which change, and we all
> will remember to not make this mistake.

The most important problem is that changes are not reflected on the
outside. There are different versions with a single name. It's like having
all FreeBSD versions shipped in the same box without version info. You
simply won't know what's inside until after you bought it.
From your words: if you don't change an existing library, but provide an
alternative, then compatibility isn't in danger.

> (FWIW, even bugfixes that in theory don't require even minor version
> bumps, are known to cause compatibility problems.

We should have learned from using cvs that revision information can be
crucial in determining what causes a problem. Why not extend that to shared
objects?

> It is amusing that a less popular OS (NetBSD) cares about compatibility
> more than a more popular OS (FreeBSD).

Yeah, right...

> > > > > Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> > > > > an error message. This is all you need.
> > > >
> > > > I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> > > > tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.
> > >
> > > I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all,
> > > we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
> > > message.
> >
> > I hope not, because not all unresolved references are due to library
> > version mismatches. Adding such a suggestion is just plain silly.
> > Complicating the semantic meaning of an otherwise clear and simple message
> > is not the solution.
> 
> Actually, almost all such messages from rtld are due to library version
> mismatches.

Sure, but rtld is not the only player here.

> > > Then, if an user don't have right libraries, it is his mistake.
> >
> > Wrong. You expect the user to know which libraries are required by all his
> > binaries. He doesn't care (and right he is). You also don't want a
> > situation in which every application ships his own version of libraries.
> > That's a good way to destroy a working configuration (again, just look at
> > Microsoft).
> 
> It is other way around. I don't want half of FreeBSD binaries linked
> with libc.so.3 and half is linked with libc.so.4.

Recompile. You have the sources.

> I don't want users to
> care which libc is required for his binaries. I don't want every
> application is shipped with the version of libc the application want. I
> want one libc (latest) to work with all binaries correctly.

See your vfork example. What you want does not seem to be in sync with what
you have experienced.

> I claim it
> is desirable, technically possible and not that difficult. (Just as a
> related example: one kernel support all binaries, why libc should be
> different?)

The difference is that a library is a static object, while a kernel
actively maintains that compatibility. There's code involved to do that.
Something a library can't handle for itself. And that's precisely why you
need versioning: to assist in maintaining compatibility.

> > > Also, we are not discussing _this_. A lot of functions were added to libc
> > > without a version bump, and it is a standard accepted practice (Just from
> > > top of my head: strlcpy, strlcat, mkstemps, strsignal, fseeko, ftello,
> > > poll, nanosleep, pread, pwrite, kld*, ... ouch, there is a lot of
> > > other functions).
> >
> > I'm not adding functions, I'm changing a well known and frequently used
> > datatype.
> 
> Uhh. There is two different points:
> (1) You should not bump library version when you add new function (or
>     do a non-interface change).

That depends on the versioning scheme/policy in use.

> (2) Other changes, in particular the sigset_t changes, can/should be done
>     by just adding new functions.

No. That's something you can do on the syscall level, but it's not
desirable to have well known functions called differently simply because
you don't want a version bump. Priorities!

> All your previous arguments are arguments against (1), right? I still hope
> to start discuss (2)...

Please read my previous posting more carefully then. I explained why you
can not simply add new functions and claim everything is dandy.

> > > My suggestion have more serious disadvantages. For one, it add more
> > > work to you (the person who change an interface). But it save some work
> > > to everyone who will ever upgrade FreeBSD or deal with a 3rd party
> > > software. Then, say, dlsym(,"setjmp") will give probably incorrect result.
> > > But "you cannot have everything" and noone, I hope, will use such dlsym.
> >
> > Your suggestion has more impact than that. It violates POLA. In all case a
> > certain function is called `foo' except in the library where it resides,
> > where it is called `bar'. I can imagine programmers to get really confused
> > when their linker starts complaining about function `bar' and they simply
> > can't find a reference to `bar' in their entire code base.
> 
> I didn't invent the idea. NetBSD do it for a long time.

I don't care who invented the idea. We're discussing this and we both have
our opinions on this matter. The fact that NetBSD uses it for some time
doesn't make it right.

> Seriously, I am a programmer and I will not be
> confused. Programmers are supposed to read system .h files.

Programmers are supposed to know the syntactical and semantical definitions
of a language and the standards involved. That's what makes a portable
program. Not the implementation specific headers.

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 15: 9:14 1999
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Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for OpenGL/Mesa)
Message-ID: <19990910080816.A17080@gurney.reilly.home>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 01:21:09PM +0200, Markus Stumpf wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 12:08:01PM +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote:
> > really easy, with a shell script that's just a case $SENDER
> 
> It's even "easier" :-)
> I subscribe new mailing lists (and resubscribed old ones) as
>     maex-listname@space.net

Well, that's arguably the way qmail wants it to be, but not helpful
if you want your mailing list traffic to come through the one
ISP-provided pop account.  (Costs less that way, with my current
ISP.)

-- 
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 15:28:31 1999
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From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@emsphone.com>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: Markus Stumpf <maex-freebsd-hackers@Space.Net>,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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In the last episode (Sep 10), Andrew Reilly said:
> On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 01:21:09PM +0200, Markus Stumpf wrote:
> > On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 12:08:01PM +1000, Andrew Reilly wrote:
> > > really easy, with a shell script that's just a case $SENDER
> > 
> > It's even "easier" :-)
> > I subscribe new mailing lists (and resubscribed old ones) as
> >     maex-listname@space.net
> 
> Well, that's arguably the way qmail wants it to be, but not helpful
> if you want your mailing list traffic to come through the one
> ISP-provided pop account.  (Costs less that way, with my current
> ISP.)

If your ISP runs sendmail (possibly other MTAs), you can use the
user+detail@host.com syntax.  All mail is sent to the "user" mailbox,
but filters like procmail see the "detail" portion too, and can filter
on it.

-- 
	Dan Nelson
	dnelson@emsphone.com


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 15:43: 7 1999
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From: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:42:49 +1000
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies...
Message-ID: <19990910084249.B17080@gurney.reilly.home>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:35:52AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> > 	Disabled
> > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> 
> You _should_ be able to change this.
> 
> > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> 
> You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> will come up...

How is it that BIOS settings can affect this?  Do they fiddle
with some battery-backed switch on the motherboard?

I have an ATX system that must be looking for a keyboard-located
power switch of some sort.  It won't power up unless I unplug the
(PS-2) keyboard, and then plug it back in again.  That seems as
though there's something fairly complicated in the system that _is_
being powered up.

I think I'll try your hot-wiring trick.

-- 
Andrew


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 16: 1: 8 1999
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Reply-To: "Donna Kean" <d-kean@adfa.edu.au>
From: "Donna Kean" <d-kean@adfa.edu.au>
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Subject: help
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:02:34 +1000
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hi my names donna kean and i'm a 3rd year is student at the australian =
defence force academy.  i'm enrolled in a systems administration course =
and i have to write an assignment about freebsd gui tools that help =
sysadmins do their work such as create users, monitor the system etc. i =
was hopeing that you could help me with information or web sites that =
are relevant. it would be most appreciated.
thanks donna

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systems=20
administration course and i have to write an assignment about freebsd =
gui tools=20
that help sysadmins do their work such as create users, monitor the =
system etc.=20
i was hopeing that you could help me with information or web sites that =
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relevant. it would be most appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks =
donna</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 16: 2:36 1999
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To: "Andrew Reilly" <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
	Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:42:49 +1000."
             <19990910084249.B17080@gurney.reilly.home> 
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> On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:35:52AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote:
> > 
> > > 	Disabled
> > > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> > 
> > You _should_ be able to change this.
> > 
> > > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> > 
> > You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> > connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> > will come up...
> 
> How is it that BIOS settings can affect this?  Do they fiddle
> with some battery-backed switch on the motherboard?

The ATX supply always feeds power to parts of the motherboard; these 
parts are configured by the BIOS.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 17:28:34 1999
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 23:37:17 +0200."
             <37D8288D.B7BC05E2@scc.nl> 
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Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > 
> > > Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Other OSes started to avoid version bumps. Linux promises to not bump
> > > > the libc version since glibc2.
> > >
> > > Yes, we now have a multitude of patches floating around for all those
> > > glibc2 binaries that just won't work on glibc2.1. Instead of a simple and
> > > intuitive message like "libfoo version X missing" we now seem to have
> > > advanced to the Microsoft way of dealing with problems: crash and let the
> > > user figure it out.
> > 
> > FUD. Every particular compatibility problem caused by a particular
> > change. Please tell which problem is caused by which change, and we all
> > will remember to not make this mistake.
> 
> The most important problem is that changes are not reflected on the
> outside. There are different versions with a single name. It's like having
> all FreeBSD versions shipped in the same box without version info. You
> simply won't know what's inside until after you bought it.

This is just a call for the linux way: libc.so.6 -> libc-2.1.1.so. I 
don't actually like it (for mostly aestetical reasons), but certainly can live 
with it.

> From your words: if you don't change an existing library, but provide an
> alternative, then compatibility isn't in danger.

Perhaps (see the end of my mail). But the progress is in danger. (FWIW, 
progress is the only reason to ever upgrade FreeBSD). The old library is 
probably buggy. See PR bin/13623 for a real-life example. (Nate apparently
ignored it :-().

> 
> > (FWIW, even bugfixes that in theory don't require even minor version
> > bumps, are known to cause compatibility problems.
> 
> We should have learned from using cvs that revision information can be
> crucial in determining what causes a problem. Why not extend that to shared
> objects?

See above. (Also, libraries should/can have rcsids linked in).

> > > > > > Linker knows it. If some function ("new implementation") is missing, linker print
> > > > > > an error message. This is all you need.
> > > > >
> > > > > I strongly disagree. Spitting "unresolved references" is *not* a way to
> > > > > tell the user that he doesn't have the right libraries.
> > > >
> > > > I strongly disagree. This is much better than version bump. After all,
> > > > we can add suggestion to upgrade libraries to the "unresolved references"
> > > > message.
> > >
> > > I hope not, because not all unresolved references are due to library
> > > version mismatches. Adding such a suggestion is just plain silly.
> > > Complicating the semantic meaning of an otherwise clear and simple message
> > > is not the solution.
> > 
> > Actually, almost all such messages from rtld are due to library version
> > mismatches.
> 
> Sure, but rtld is not the only player here.

Umm, no, rtld is the only player with old binaries. Anyway, I don't 
really care about it.

> 
> > > > Then, if an user don't have right libraries, it is his mistake.
> > >
> > > Wrong. You expect the user to know which libraries are required by all his
> > > binaries. He doesn't care (and right he is). You also don't want a
> > > situation in which every application ships his own version of libraries.
> > > That's a good way to destroy a working configuration (again, just look at
> > > Microsoft).
> > 
> > It is other way around. I don't want half of FreeBSD binaries linked
> > with libc.so.3 and half is linked with libc.so.4.
> 
> Recompile. You have the sources.

??? What recompile? Why do you think I have the sources - there is 
quite a few binary-only FreeBSD programs? Why should I waste my time by 
recompiling and reinstalling something? Why should I waste my time and 
network bandwidth by downloading every package twice - for -stable and 
for -current?

> 
> > I don't want users to
> > care which libc is required for his binaries. I don't want every
> > application is shipped with the version of libc the application want. I
> > want one libc (latest) to work with all binaries correctly.
> 
> See your vfork example. What you want does not seem to be in sync with what
> you have experienced.

No! This is the whole point. Of course, NetBSD renamed "new" vfork to 
something like __vfork14, so new binaries actually call __vfork14(), 
while old binaries call vfork(). Everything happy.

> > I claim it
> > is desirable, technically possible and not that difficult. (Just as a
> > related example: one kernel support all binaries, why libc should be
> > different?)
> 
> The difference is that a library is a static object,

I can't parse the above line

> while a kernel
> actively maintains that compatibility. There's code involved to do that.
> Something a library can't handle for itself. And that's precisely why you
> need versioning: to assist in maintaining compatibility.

You described the existing situation. You could notice that I suggest to
change it. I suggest that libc should actively maintain compatibility. I 
suggest to add code for it. I suggest that library versioning should not be 
used.

> > >
> > > Your suggestion has more impact than that. It violates POLA. In all case a
> > > certain function is called `foo' except in the library where it resides,
> > > where it is called `bar'. 
> > I didn't invent the idea. NetBSD do it for a long time.
> I don't care who invented the idea. We're discussing this and we both have
> our opinions on this matter. The fact that NetBSD uses it for some time
> doesn't make it right.

My point is just that NetBSD give an experience, in particular w.r.t. POLA 
violations. You also ignored my refence to <arpa/inet.h>. I will 
expand: When you see call to inet_aton() in the source, your object file 
actually call __inet_aton(). This is quite similar to the thing I 
suggest. This is the case at least still 3.0-RELEASE. From this
experience we can say that POLA violation here is very low.

> > > where it is called `bar'. I can imagine programmers to get really confused
> > > when their linker starts complaining about function `bar' and they simply
> > > can't find a reference to `bar' in their entire code base.
> > 
> > Seriously, I am a programmer and I will not be
> > confused. Programmers are supposed to read system .h files.
> 
> Programmers are supposed to know the syntactical and semantical definitions
> of a language and the standards involved. That's what makes a portable
> program. Not the implementation specific headers.

Yeah, but only until they see an error message. A lot of error messages are
really hard to understand without looking at the implementation specific 
headers. (Then again, not every program is supposed to be portable.)

---

OK, I failed to convince you. New attempt: I am switching to your 
original question.

> Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
> need a version bump. I assume that all others automaticly also need a
> version bump then. Am I correct in this assumption?

Yes. You need to manually bump version of every other library, 
including those from ports. You also going to have some fun when the
version of the "other library" need to be bumped by its internal
vendor-specific reasons.

Look: suppose there is libfoo.so.15, that use, say, setjmp() for its 
internal purposes. If you didn't recompile the library, you cannot 
build new programs with it: the library will call setjmp() from 
libc.so.4, while it want to call setjmp() from libc.so.3. (NOTE! The 
users WILL experience the "Linux syndrome" here if they don't recompile 
everything together with the libc upgrade.) If you recompile libfoo and 
didn't bump its version, old programs linked with libc.so.3 will break - 
libfoo will call setjmp() from libc.so.3 where it want to call setjmp()
from libc.so.4. So, you have to bump the version number.

You probably already understand above. So, what's the plan? Do you 
actually plan to bump the version of every library under the moon? Or 
you will say - oh, if some programs borke, just recompile them? Or do 
something like linux when they switched from libc5 to libc6 - I believe 
they have had separate directories for libc5 and libc6 worlds?

With my scheme, if the rtld see a call to setjmp, it know it is the old 
setjmp, if it see a call to __setjmp40, it know it is the new setjmp. 
Isn't it clear and unambiquous? You can have old binary that call old 
setjmp linked with shared library that call new __setjmp40. Of course, 
if the library interface have something sigset-related, you are still 
in trouble, but it is unlikely and you would have to deal with the
trouble anyway.

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18: 7:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	(envelope-from julian@whistle.com)
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:06:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:  make bug?  bin/13039
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Can someone who understands make(1) 
check out bin/13039

specifically the fix would be nice in 3.3 if we can get it
(the fix is in the PR)


julian





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18: 9:26 1999
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On my dual processor I am running old boot blocks and an AOUT kernel.  I need the AOUT because I have a lkm device the talks out the parallel port to "Background Debug Module" for a Motorola 68332.  I haven't been able to convert it over yet.

My code is up to date with cvs-cur.5648.gz (Sept. 9 13:40) and my source tree was updated with "cvs update -r RELENG_3" I get the following error:

exception.o:
smp_rendezvous_action not found

Or similar at link time (ELF works just fine).  If I edit /sys/i386/isa/apic_vector.s (ver 1.34.2.3) line 928 and change
	call	smp_rendezvous_action
to
	call	_smp_rendezvous_action
All works.  Why is this the only function/routine that is being hit by the name change between ELF and AOUT?

Jim
-- 
 James E. Housley                            PGP:   1024/03983B4D
 System Supply, Inc.                         2C 3F 3A 0D A8 D8 C3 13
 Pager: pagejim@notepage.com                 7C F0 B5 BF 27 8B 92 FE 

"The box said 'Requires Windows 95, NT, or better,' so I installed FreeBSD"


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18: 9:53 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:09:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
	Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies...
In-Reply-To: <19990910084249.B17080@gurney.reilly.home>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Andrew Reilly wrote:

> 
> How is it that BIOS settings can affect this?  Do they fiddle
> with some battery-backed switch on the motherboard?

The ATX power supply has a lead or two that are always powered.  This allows
the machine do softpower on.  It also means that the bios can tell the power
supply to go on whenver that the signal is present.  Macintoshes have done
something like this since the Mac II.  most of them had a powr switch that
could be configured to always be on when plugged in.  I wish someone would
make such an ATX power supply!

David




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In-Reply-To: <199909091456.QAA05709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:48:27 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: RE: damn ATX power supplies...
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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On 09-Sep-99 Luigi Rizzo wrote:
>  any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
>  outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
>  panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
>  options:

There are no jumpers on the mobo to help with this? The ones I have seen
(Supermicro and Epox) are labelled 'Save PD State' and 'PIIX4 Ctl'..The later
is the one you want.

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:21:48 1999
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To: "James E. Housley" <jim@thehousleys.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Release Canidate 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:09:19 EDT."
             <37D85A3F.64F59ABC@thehousleys.net> 
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Please word-wrap your messages, as reading them unwrapped is a major 
nuisance.

> On my dual processor I am running old boot blocks and an AOUT kernel.
> I need the AOUT because I have a lkm device the talks out the parallel
> port to "Background Debug Module" for a Motorola 68332.  I haven't been
> able to convert it over yet.

You should do this soon.

> All works.  Why is this the only function/routine that is being hit by
> the name change between ELF and AOUT?

Because nobody is testing using a.out any more.  I've patched this in 
-stable and -current now, so you should be fine.


-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:27:18 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: How to follow child process in gdb
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990908200701.23944A-100000@sol.cs.binghamton.edu>
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From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: 10 Sep 1999 03:26:30 +0200
In-Reply-To: Zhihui Zhang's message of "Wed, 8 Sep 1999 20:19:32 -0400 (EDT)"
Message-ID: <5lk8pz36bd.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
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Zhihui Zhang <zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu> writes:
> Your response suggests that I can not achieve the same result simply by
> using (I am using gdb 4.18):
> 
> (gdb)set follow-fork-mode child

As far as I can tell, `set follow-fork-mode' only works on HP-UX.

/assar


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:29: 1 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:28:53 -0600
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
References: <199909091642.KAA03695@mt.sri.com>
	<XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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> >  VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
> >  versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
> >  better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)
> 
> Does it do IMAP?

It doesn't even do POP, I use fetchmail/procmailrc to get my email,
which works *MUCH* better than anything else I've found.



Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:35:10 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:02:09 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 10-Sep-99 Nate Williams wrote:
> > Does it do IMAP?
>  It doesn't even do POP, I use fetchmail/procmailrc to get my email,
>  which works *MUCH* better than anything else I've found.

Woe is me.

Oh well.. back to xfmail :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:42:49 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
To: nate@mt.sri.com
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:16:49 -0500
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On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Nate Williams wrote:
> > I'm more tempted to revert to the major/minor versioning.
> 
> ELF has no minor revision number (IMO a mistake, but it's not my call).

I agree that it is a mistake.

However, if you think of "major" changes as different libraries, it does make
sense. We then have libxxx.so and libxxx2.so as the "major" versions and treat
the ELF revision number as the minor number.

In either case, I think it is a good policy to makei, f needed, an extra
increment to the major number and reset the minor number to zero when we
actually release a new system.
To avoid too many "bumps" of the major number, we could use the stopgap encoding
scheme of jumping the revision to the next multiple of 1000 to hide major
revisions during the development phase.

Thus, libxxx4.so.0 is released.
It is patched to libxxx4.so.1, etc.
If, during development, we need a major bump, we could use libxxx4.so.1000 as a
standin for libxxx5. Finally, at the time of release, libxxx4.so.7042
could be renamed to libxxx5.so.0 and recompiled for release purposes.

The only drawback is that users of development versions would have to watch for
and manually handle versioning.

I'm not sure which I consider worse, the "run away" version numbers or the
failure of the system to recognize the linking error.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:45:41 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:56:27 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
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On 09-Sep-99 Nate Williams wrote:
>  VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
>  versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
>  better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)

Does it do IMAP? I have only seen *1* emailer which does IMAP properly (xfmail)
all the others either don't support it at all, or treat IMAP like POP (ie just
fetch mail from INBOX).

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:49: 4 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:43:44 -0500
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On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> Sheldon Hearn wrote:

> I'm more tempted to revert to the major/minor versioning. Every change
> triggers a minor version bump, but only if the library is still backwards
> compatible with minor version 0 and the same major version. Otherwise a
> major version bump is required.

A change to the LPI deserves a version change. Changes which only patch/correct
the implementation do not require one.

> This only works if the dynamic linker uses a slightly different approach
> when linking:
> Linking is performed in such a way that if a program is linked against
> version x.y of libfoo, then every libfoo with version x.z and z>=y is a
> valid candidate. If there're more than one candidate .......

Rather than force this on the loader, simply use links in the file system to
point to the "current" one. That pushes the burden to the install Makefile
where it is executed only once.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:52:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:51:27 -0400
From: "James E. Housley" <jim@thehousleys.net>
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Subject: Re: Release Canidate
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Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> Please word-wrap your messages, as reading them unwrapped is a major
> nuisance.
> 
Sorry, I had turned it off for a specific message and forgot.

> 
> You should do this soon.
> 
I know.  But I was barely able to create it the first time.

> Because nobody is testing using a.out any more.  I've patched this in
> -stable and -current now, so you should be fine.
> 
Thank you.

-- 
 James E. Housley                            PGP:   1024/03983B4D
 System Supply, Inc.                         2C 3F 3A 0D A8 D8 C3 13
 Pager: pagejim@notepage.com                 7C F0 B5 BF 27 8B 92 FE 

"The box said 'Requires Windows 95, NT, or better,' so I installed
FreeBSD"


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:55:39 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:54:22 +1000 (EST)
From: andrew@ugh.net.au
To: Donna Kean <d-kean@adfa.edu.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: help
In-Reply-To: <000701befb17$680489a0$4565ec83@doonakean.adfa.edu.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Donna Kean wrote:

> hi my names donna kean and i'm a 3rd year is student at the australian
> defence force academy.  i'm enrolled in a systems administration
> course and i have to write an assignment about freebsd gui tools that
> help sysadmins do their work such as create users, monitor the system
> etc. i was hopeing that you could help me with information or web
> sites that are relevant. it would be most appreciated. thanks donna

Your best bet is to probably search the mailing lists..there have been a
few tools mentioned inthe past. Look in the ports collection also as I
beleive there is stuff there. There are also generic (ie non FreeBSd
specific tools) as well (such as majorcool for majordomo).

What does the sysadmin course involve? I am trying to get them to start up
one at my uni (Griffith) but we get the usual beuracracy...Is there a
course outline on the web?

Thanks,

Andrew
(BTW you may have more luck posting sucha  question on -questions)





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:55:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from ddsecurity.com.br (vitoria.ddsecurity.com.br [200.18.130.93])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C935915CD7
	for <hackers@freebsd.org>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 18:55:49 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:55:18 -0300
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RC i386)
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: submiting source code ?
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I use freebsd about +- 12 months ago. I have never did any thing serious
at kernel level, nor i know anything about kernel desgin.

Suppose, i would like to spend time and patience learnig Fbsd internals.
If, later, i were able to code something to freebsd, and suppose i do,
what (or better, how) should i do to have my source accepted by the core
team?

What about coding style ?
What are the golden rules to have my sources widely accepted by freebsd
community?

Thanks a lot for your time and cooperation.
best regards

PS: This is my first attempt to start touching the kernel, so, don't
blame, if i wrote something wrong.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 18:56:51 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32])
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  by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 10 Sep 1999 01:56:13 -0000
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 20:56:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

> 
> Does it do IMAP? I have only seen *1* emailer which does IMAP properly (xfmail)
> all the others either don't support it at all, or treat IMAP like POP (ie just
> fetch mail from INBOX).

Netscape does, actually.  I set up a friend's computer to do this, over an
ssh-forwarded local port, even.  It all more less "Just worked".  On a win98
box, even.  shudder.

David Scheidt



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 19: 2: 7 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:30:17 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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On 10-Sep-99 David Scheidt wrote:
> > fetch mail from INBOX).
>  Netscape does, actually.  I set up a friend's computer to do this, over an
>  ssh-forwarded local port, even.  It all more less "Just worked".  On a win98
>  box, even.  shudder.

Yeah, I forgot to mention Netscape.. OK no mailer with a memory footprint
smaller than 20 meg BESIDES xfmail does IMAP :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 19: 5:21 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:04:16 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: submiting source code ?
In-reply-to: <37D86506.4247EF3A@ddsecurity.com.br>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <grios@ddsecurity.com.br>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: chris@calldei.com
Message-id: <19990909210416.E94287@holly.calldei.com>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> I use freebsd about +- 12 months ago. I have never did any thing serious
> at kernel level, nor i know anything about kernel desgin.
> 
> Suppose, i would like to spend time and patience learnig Fbsd internals.
> If, later, i were able to code something to freebsd, and suppose i do,
> what (or better, how) should i do to have my source accepted by the core
> team?
> 
> What about coding style ?
> What are the golden rules to have my sources widely accepted by freebsd
> community?

   man 9 style

   Submit your code either via email to -hackers pointing to a
URL with your patch, or using send-pr

> PS: This is my first attempt to start touching the kernel, so, don't
> blame, if i wrote something wrong.

   If you did something wrong, it won't be accepted into the
kernel! :)

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|Jury -- Twelve people who determine which client has the better lawyer.
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 19:44:14 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B391537B
	for <hackers@freebsd.org>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 19:44:12 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from kris@airnet.net)
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:42:57 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <37D8701F.6657BE5B@airnet.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 21:42:39 -0500
From: Kris Kirby <kris@airnet.net>
Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum.
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies...
References: <199909091456.QAA05709@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <199909091735.KAA00703@dingo.cdrom.com> <19990910084249.B17080@gurney.reilly.home>
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Andrew Reilly wrote:
> I have an ATX system that must be looking for a keyboard-located
> power switch of some sort.  It won't power up unless I unplug the
> (PS-2) keyboard, and then plug it back in again.  That seems as
> though there's something fairly complicated in the system that _is_
> being powered up.

They are looking for the power on button :-). Usually the space bar is
used to turn the computer on from the keyboard. It's an option, usually
set by jumper. Maybe the dolts want PCs to be more like Macs. (Oops,
wait, Sun did that too, didn't they?)

-- 
Kris Kirby 
<kris@airnet.net>
-------------------------------------------
TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said.


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 19:44:46 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from thehousleys.net (frenchknot.ne.mediaone.net [24.218.96.75])
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Message-ID: <37D87080.4D44E9C4@thehousleys.net>
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:44:16 -0400
From: "James E. Housley" <jim@thehousleys.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386)
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: A Challenge
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I have been presented with a challenge.  For a local school we have
"won" putting in FreeBSD as firewall between the cable modem and the
rest of the school network.  Our opponent is last years IT commitee
chair, who was booted because he was a jerk and wouldn't do things they
was the school wanted.  He wanted to spend about $10K on an NT box with
some firewall package.

Now the details:

I have about 5 years experance with FreeBSD.  I am running it at home
connected to a cable modem.  My server is fairly secure from the
outside.  I periodically read and act upon the builins from CERT, etc.

The box is just going to be running NATD and IPFW, maybe DHCLIENT.

Mr. NT is been told he can try and break-in, crash what ever this box
from the internet side.

I am asking for links, pointer to make sure this is configured as
secure/solid as possible.  I will be installing 3.3-STABLE over this
weekend (9/11/1999).  I really want to make sure we win.

Thanks for all help

Jim.
-- 
 James E. Housley                            PGP:   1024/03983B4D
 System Supply, Inc.                         2C 3F 3A 0D A8 D8 C3 13
 Pager: pagejim@notepage.com                 7C F0 B5 BF 27 8B 92 FE 

"The box said 'Requires Windows 95, NT, or better,' so I installed
FreeBSD"


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 19:58:50 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from jazz.viagenie.qc.ca (jazz.viagenie.qc.ca [206.123.31.2])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7021579C
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 19:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from Florent.Parent@viagenie.qc.ca)
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	by jazz.viagenie.qc.ca (Viagenie/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA58949;
	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: 21.2  (beta15) "Sakuragawa" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 8 I);
	VM 6.71 under 21.2  (beta15) "Sakuragawa" XEmacs Lucid
From: "Florent Parent" <Florent.Parent@viagenie.qc.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Message-ID: <14296.29517.277000.227820@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:56:12 -0400 (Heure d'été Côte Est)
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <199909100128.TAA08208@mt.sri.com>
References: <199909091642.KAA03695@mt.sri.com>
	<XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
	<199909100128.TAA08208@mt.sri.com>
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Nate Williams writes:
 > > >  VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
 > > >  versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
 > > >  better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)
 > > 
 > > Does it do IMAP?
 > 
 > It doesn't even do POP, I use fetchmail/procmailrc to get my email,
 > which works *MUCH* better than anything else I've found.
 > 

I'm using VM 6.71/Xemacs under FreeBSD and NT and it supports POP3 but 
not IMAP (http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~smikes/emacs/vm-faq.html)

I've been trying different MUAs that would allow me to read my mail
under FreeBSD and NT (dual boot laptop) while sharing the same mail
folders (shared DOS partition).  So far, only VM/Xemacs allowed me to
do that. Even Netscape FreeBSD/NT use different mechanisms to build
its "folder summaries" :(

Unfortunalty, VM is a memory hog when your mail files starts to grow.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a similar config. (i guess
this should go in the freebsd-questions list?)

Florent.
--
Florent Parent                     Florent.Parent@viagenie.qc.ca
Viagénie inc.                      http://www.viagenie.qc.ca
Internet Engineering Standards/Normes d'ingénierie Internet
               http://www.normos.org



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 20: 2:13 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF8E15D8E
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	(envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au)
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	(envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au)
Message-ID: <XFMail.990910123122.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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In-Reply-To: <14296.29517.277000.227820@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:31:22 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Florent Parent <Florent.Parent@viagenie.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, (Nate Williams) <nate@mt.sri.com>
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On 10-Sep-99 Florent Parent wrote:
>  I've been trying different MUAs that would allow me to read my mail
>  under FreeBSD and NT (dual boot laptop) while sharing the same mail
>  folders (shared DOS partition).  So far, only VM/Xemacs allowed me to
>  do that. Even Netscape FreeBSD/NT use different mechanisms to build
>  its "folder summaries" :(
>  I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a similar config. (i guess

I have Cyrus IMAP on my server box and my workstation dual boots freebsd/win95
so I use xfmail under freebsd and netscape under windows and it works fine :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 20:14: 4 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from loki.iss.net (loki.iss.net [208.21.0.3])
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	Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:11:52 -0400
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 23:22:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Brian Mitchell (ISSATL)" <bmitchel@iss.net>
To: "James E. Housley" <jim@thehousleys.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <37D87080.4D44E9C4@thehousleys.net>
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> I have about 5 years experance with FreeBSD.  I am running it at home
> connected to a cable modem.  My server is fairly secure from the
> outside.  I periodically read and act upon the builins from CERT, etc.
> 
> The box is just going to be running NATD and IPFW, maybe DHCLIENT.

Some suggestions:

dump natd/ipfw, use ipf and ipnat instead so you can use keepstate, which
is very close to a stateful packet filter).

subscribe to bugtraq (http://www.securityfocus.com, it's somewhere in
there).

dont install X, or any other services not absolutely necessary for the
operation of the firewall. Administration should be (ideally) done at
console (no x!)

remove privledges of all executables that you dont require. Enable them on
a case by case basis, if they need to be used for the operation of the
firewall.
 
> Mr. NT is been told he can try and break-in, crash what ever this box
> from the internet side.
> 
> I am asking for links, pointer to make sure this is configured as
> secure/solid as possible.  I will be installing 3.3-STABLE over this
> weekend (9/11/1999).  I really want to make sure we win.

Might want to write chroot() wrappers around all network daemons too.




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 20:24:39 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from jasper.heartland.ab.ca (jasper.heartland.ab.ca [207.107.228.1])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1DA14E8B
	for <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 20:24:35 -0700 (PDT)
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From: darren <dkwiebe@heartland.ab.ca>
Reply-To: dkwiebe@hagenhomes.com
To: "Donna Kean" <d-kean@adfa.edu.au>,
	"Donna Kean" <d-kean@adfa.edu.au>, <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: help
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 21:27:33 -0600
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Hello:

One suggestion I have is webmin.   Look at www.webmin.com.

>and i have to write an assignment about freebsd gui tools that help sysadmins
>do their work 

Darren Wiebe
dkwiebe@hagenhomes.com


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 20:50:27 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:50:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Florent Parent <Florent.Parent@viagenie.qc.ca>,
	hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910123122.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

> 
> On 10-Sep-99 Florent Parent wrote:
> >  I've been trying different MUAs that would allow me to read my mail
> >  under FreeBSD and NT (dual boot laptop) while sharing the same mail
> >  folders (shared DOS partition).  So far, only VM/Xemacs allowed me to
> >  do that. Even Netscape FreeBSD/NT use different mechanisms to build
> >  its "folder summaries" :(
> >  I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a similar config. (i guess
> 
> I have Cyrus IMAP on my server box and my workstation dual boots freebsd/win95
> so I use xfmail under freebsd and netscape under windows and it works fine :)
> 
This was what I was going to suggest.  If you are lucky, you might be able
to find an NT imap server that will get along with sharing the folders with
a FreeBSD one, so you can keep everything local.  I haven't looked, because
I don't do windows, except underdress, and never on hardware I own.  I don't
even have a license of MS-DOS.

David



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 22: 0: 0 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ben Jackson <ben@ben.com>
Message-Id: <199909100500.WAA00530@pulsar.ben.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: upgrade issue from 2.2.x -> 3.2
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I just did that upgrade (been with freebsd since 1.1!) and everything
seems pretty smooth.  I did a 2.2->3.1 upgrade on another machine so
I'm probably glossing over some aout issues (mainly that you have to
find them and move them into a separate directory).

One thing that confused me for several days and I just figured out:
sysctl moved from /usr/sbin to /sbin.  I have /usr/sbin in my path first,
so I was getting to old one.  It almost works, but not quite.  It only
displays about 15 `kern.' variables and then quits.

Perhaps the upgrade option should at least warn of that possibility
(maybe obvious, but somewhat unexpected) or even include a list of files
that once existed in FreeBSD but no longer do (to facilitate removing
them).  I'm thinking about digging out a 2.2.x install cd to build that
list for myself.

--Ben


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 22: 5:16 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: "James E. Housley" <jim@thehousleys.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: A Challenge
In-Reply-To: <37D87080.4D44E9C4@thehousleys.net>
References: <37D87080.4D44E9C4@thehousleys.net>
X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid
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> The box is just going to be running NATD and IPFW, maybe DHCLIENT.
> 
> Mr. NT is been told he can try and break-in, crash what ever this box
> from the internet side.
> 
> I am asking for links, pointer to make sure this is configured as
> secure/solid as possible.  I will be installing 3.3-STABLE over this
> weekend (9/11/1999).  I really want to make sure we win.

Turn off inetd on the computer, since you have no need for external
services.

In any case, if you install a recent version of FreeBSD, I doubt Mr. NT
is capable of crashing FreeBSD from externally.  Just make sure he
doesn't have an account on it, since it's much easier to cause Denial Of
Service attacks if you don't spend alot of time setting up limits and
such.


Nate


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 23:42:31 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sonet.crimea.ua (OTC-sl3-FLY.CRIS.NET [212.110.136.71])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 9EB43151DF; Thu,  9 Sep 1999 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from stas@sonet.crimea.ua)
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	Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:41:54 +0400 (MSD)
	(envelope-from stas)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:41:54 +0400 (MSD)
From: Stas Kisel <stas@sonet.crimea.ua>
Message-Id: <199909100541.JAA13107@sonet.crimea.ua>
To: jared@puck.nether.net, stas@sonet.crimea.ua
Subject: Re: mbuf shortage situations
Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
	freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG
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> From jared@puck.nether.net Thu Sep  9 18:10:06 1999

> 	I am creating about 100 icmp sockets, and as they are
> created, allocate a very large SO_RCVBUF:
>         (void)setsockopt(localstruct->icmp_s, SOL_SOCKET,
>                 SO_RCVBUF, (char *)&hold, sizeof(hold));

This can be a part of the problem too.

setsockopt() have to check if there is really free memory for buffer and
set an appropriate, described in man page errno if failed.

In my test, 2.2.7 kernel allowed me to "allocate" in this way 15M "for buffers"
on a 32M machine (NMBCLUSTERS=1024, maxusers=50). Probably it could
allow more, but I thought 15M is too much anyways.
There is a limitation - buffer can not be bigger than ~240k. I did
not checked which errno setsockopt() returns, but I didn't found
anything appropriate in a man page.


--
Stas Kisel. UNIX, security, C, TCP/IP, Web. UNIX - the best adventure game
http://www.tekmetrics.com/transcript.shtml?pid=20053 http://www.crimea.edu
+380(652)510222,230238 ; stas@crimea.edu stas@sonet.crimea.ua ; 2:460/54.4



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu Sep  9 23:54: 6 1999
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 via SMTP by smptd, id smtpdt10335; Fri Sep 10 08:48:42 1999
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:47:09 +0200
From: Lutz Albers <lutz@muc.de>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>,
	Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>,
	Marc van Kempen <marc@bowtie.nl>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Message-ID: <650359425.936953229@ripley.tavari.muc.de>
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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--On Freitag, 10. September 1999, 10:56 +0930 Daniel O'Connor
<doconnor@gsoft.com.au> wrote:

> 
> On 09-Sep-99 Nate Williams wrote:
>>  VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
>>  versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
>>  better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)
> 
> Does it do IMAP? I have only seen *1* emailer which does IMAP properly
> (xfmail) all the others either don't support it at all, or treat IMAP
> like POP (ie just fetch mail from INBOX).

It claims to do IMAP4, but it just fetches all messages from the server
(and by default deleting it from the server). There are very few good IMAP4
clients out there :-(

--
Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de, pgp key available from <http://www.pgp.net>
Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  0: 9:20 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Lutz Albers <lutz@muc.de>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 08:47:09 +0200."
             <650359425.936953229@ripley.tavari.muc.de> 
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I would start by using a java gui tool to design the look and feel 
of the xmailer and allow the application to load java classes
or lets call them plug-ins. There is lots of stuff available 
for java including good design patterns and methodologies.

Once the overall design is completed then translate it to X and C++. 
There is at least one decent  C++ tookit which is free that I know of :


ftp://ftp.x.org:/contrib/libraries/Cvo.1.0.1a.README

	Have Fun Guys

-- 

 Amancio Hasty
 hasty@rah.star-gate.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  0:13:30 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-Id: <199909100712.JAA07562@musashi.et.bocholt.fh-ge.de>
To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More press 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Sep 1999 14:01:35 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909091359240.65384-100000@earth.fxp> 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:12:53 +0200
From: Dirk GOUDERS <hank@musashi.et.bocholt.fh-ge.de>
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 > There is a short but sweet[1] article on ZDNet today regarding FreeBSD:
 > 
 > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/0,3656,2324624,00.html

Hmm, can't find that sweet thing -- typo?

Dirk


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  0:37:17 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:36:39 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Organization: SCC vof
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
References: <199909100030.EAA02516@tejblum.pp.ru>
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:
> 
> > > It is other way around. I don't want half of FreeBSD binaries linked
> > > with libc.so.3 and half is linked with libc.so.4.
> >
> > Recompile. You have the sources.
> 
> ??? What recompile? Why do you think I have the sources - there is
> quite a few binary-only FreeBSD programs? Why should I waste my time by
> recompiling and reinstalling something? Why should I waste my time and
> network bandwidth by downloading every package twice - for -stable and
> for -current?

Because you can't live with having two actively used versions a library.
You have the problem; you also have the solution. I don't want the complete
history of development bundled in a library. That's my problem. Now tell me
how do I solve it?

> > > related example: one kernel support all binaries, why libc should be
> > > different?)
> >
> > The difference is that a library is a static object,
> 
> I can't parse the above line

s/static/passive/g

> > while a kernel
> > actively maintains that compatibility. There's code involved to do that.
> > Something a library can't handle for itself. And that's precisely why you
> > need versioning: to assist in maintaining compatibility.
> 
> You described the existing situation. You could notice that I suggest to
> change it.

Strange. You are the one that is also refering to rules and standards that
are in use now and you are using that to validate your point. Now you are
telling me that you actually are diverting from the rules and a proposing a
change? Why am I having this discussion?

> > > > Your suggestion has more impact than that. It violates POLA. In all case a
> > > > certain function is called `foo' except in the library where it resides,
> > > > where it is called `bar'.
> > > I didn't invent the idea. NetBSD do it for a long time.
> > I don't care who invented the idea. We're discussing this and we both have
> > our opinions on this matter. The fact that NetBSD uses it for some time
> > doesn't make it right.
> 
> My point is just that NetBSD give an experience, in particular w.r.t. POLA
> violations. You also ignored my refence to <arpa/inet.h>. I will
> expand: When you see call to inet_aton() in the source, your object file
> actually call __inet_aton(). This is quite similar to the thing I
> suggest. This is the case at least still 3.0-RELEASE. From this
> experience we can say that POLA violation here is very low.

The fact that it has been done, doesn't mean that it is a good thing. It
also doesn't validate to do it again (especially as a policy).

> OK, I failed to convince you. New attempt: I am switching to your
> original question.
> 
> > Since libc and libc_r have changed on the interface level, they
> > need a version bump. I assume that all others automaticly also need a
> > version bump then. Am I correct in this assumption?
> 
> Yes. You need to manually bump version of every other library,
> including those from ports. You also going to have some fun when the
> version of the "other library" need to be bumped by its internal
> vendor-specific reasons.

No, I was not correct in that assumption. Libraries that don't use the
changed datatype do not need a version bump.

> Look: suppose there is libfoo.so.15, that use, say, setjmp() for its
> internal purposes. If you didn't recompile the library, you cannot
> build new programs with it: the library will call setjmp() from
> libc.so.4, while it want to call setjmp() from libc.so.3.

Correct.

> If you recompile libfoo and
> didn't bump its version, old programs linked with libc.so.3 will break -
> libfoo will call setjmp() from libc.so.3 where it want to call setjmp()
> from libc.so.4. So, you have to bump the version number.

Also correct.

> You probably already understand above. So, what's the plan? Do you
> actually plan to bump the version of every library under the moon?

No.

> Or you will say - oh, if some programs borke, just recompile them?

Not if this was to happen on -stable.

> Or do
> something like linux when they switched from libc5 to libc6 - I believe
> they have had separate directories for libc5 and libc6 worlds?

libc5 and glibc2 coexist, yes.

Listen, you made a good point. It clearly shows where the problem is. The
"solutions" we have been discussing aren't the proper solutions.

The current situation doesn't handle the (complex) dependencies, because
there's no way you can "bind" a version of a library (say libfoo.so.15) to
a version of another library (libc.so.3). A version bump messes things up
if you're not careful. That's why we already minimize version bumps.

Having all versions of a library called the same has also its
disadvantages. First of all every incarnation of a function is present in a
library. In the long run this will unnecessary bloat the library. Every
incarnation has to be named differently. First incarnations are named as
published, new incarnations are not. Secondly, maintenance of the library
will be more cumbersome with every major change made. Since it's the
programmer that has to do the maintaining, I'm not surprised if he himself
adds version tags to his library name just to avoid the burden. Thirdly,
see counter example below.

> if the library interface have something sigset-related, you are still
> in trouble, but it is unlikely and you would have to deal with the
> trouble anyway.

A counter example:

libc has new functions to accomodate the sigset_t change. Primarily these
are the functions that have a sigset_t somewhere in their argument list
(sigprocmask, sigsuspend). Secondly, you also have to add new functions for
those functions that have arguments that are indirectly changed (sigaction
and such). Of course you also need to reimplement functions that are
changed by a changing sigaction... and so on and so forth... You need to
reimplement every function in every library that has changed directly or
indirectly for this scheme to work.

Now, are you going to do the reimplementation for every library on this
planet just to prevent someone from recompiling his library and forgetting
to reimplement those functions that got changed indirectly *without he even
knowing that something has changed*? Are you the one that does the
debugging to find out exactly what has gone wrong? What are the changes of
finding the problem?

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  0:48:37 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:43:29 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: Ben Jackson <ben@ben.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: upgrade issue from 2.2.x -> 3.2
Message-ID: <19990910104328.C59335@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 10:00:46PM -0700, Ben Jackson wrote:
> I just did that upgrade (been with freebsd since 1.1!) and everything
> seems pretty smooth.  I did a 2.2->3.1 upgrade on another machine so
> I'm probably glossing over some aout issues (mainly that you have to
> find them and move them into a separate directory).
> 
> One thing that confused me for several days and I just figured out:
> sysctl moved from /usr/sbin to /sbin.  I have /usr/sbin in my path first,
> so I was getting to old one.  It almost works, but not quite.  It only
> displays about 15 `kern.' variables and then quits.
> 
> Perhaps the upgrade option should at least warn of that possibility
> (maybe obvious, but somewhat unexpected) or even include a list of files
> that once existed in FreeBSD but no longer do (to facilitate removing
> them).  I'm thinking about digging out a 2.2.x install cd to build that
> list for myself.
> 
Just `make installworld DESTDIR=/fresh-install' and check it against
your /.


Cheers,
-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  1: 3:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:01:44 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
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Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 09 Sep 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> > Sheldon Hearn wrote:
> 
> > I'm more tempted to revert to the major/minor versioning. Every change
> > triggers a minor version bump, but only if the library is still backwards
> > compatible with minor version 0 and the same major version. Otherwise a
> > major version bump is required.
> 
> A change to the LPI deserves a version change. Changes which only patch/correct
> the implementation do not require one.

If the libraries are different, give them different versions. It's a simple
rule.

> > This only works if the dynamic linker uses a slightly different approach
> > when linking:
> > Linking is performed in such a way that if a program is linked against
> > version x.y of libfoo, then every libfoo with version x.z and z>=y is a
> > valid candidate. If there're more than one candidate .......
> 
> Rather than force this on the loader, simply use links in the file system to
> point to the "current" one. That pushes the burden to the install Makefile
> where it is executed only once.

You are missing the point.

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  1:27: 8 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:26:26 +0200
From: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@funk.org>
To: David Gilbert <dgilbert@velocet.ca>
Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
Message-ID: <19990910102626.A5384@funk.org>
References: <14294.41194.422190.809990@trooper.velocet.ca>
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Hi,

I once had a similar situation: I had wiped my disklabel.

I forgot what it was exactly what I did, but it was something along the
lines of this:

- boot fixit cdrom
- run a commandline like this:

hd /dev/rwdnnn | grep "hh hh hh" (where 'hh hh hh' is the superblock magic
number, I can't find it right now, but that's probably because it's still
before coffee for me)

- Let is run for a while. Until is has found all the filesystems. The magic
number will appear quite often, but there are fixed offsets for each
consecutive superblock, so you can filter out which ones are 'real' and
which ones are not.

- After this you can figure out where your filesystems start. This was
enough for me, as I had only wiped the disklabel. You'll have to do some
additional juggling to figure out the right partitiontable entries.

I realise this is all very vague, but it was a few years ago so my memory
is a bit hazy.

Good luck :)

Alex

On Wed, Sep 08, 1999 at 01:46:18PM -0400, David Gilbert wrote:
> So... I lost my partition table.  I'm willing to spend a little time
> on this.  Is there a byte sequence that I might recognise in a
> superblock or at the start of a partition?  I know this isn't an easy
> task, but man 5 fs leads me to believe that I might find:
> 
>      #define FS_MAGIC        0x011954   /* the fast filesystem magic number */
>      #define FS_OKAY         0x7c269d38 /* superblock checksum */
> 
> ... but I don't see those bytes.  Any hints?
> 
> I'm willing to post a description of a solution for the FAQ if I can
> find the filesystems.
> 
> Dave.
> 
> -- 
> ============================================================================
> |David Gilbert, Velocet Communications.       | Two things can only be     |
> |Mail:       dgilbert@velocet.net             |  equal if and only if they |
> |http://www.velocet.net/~dgilbert             |   are precisely opposite.  |
> =========================================================GLO================
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message

-- 
+--------------------------------+-------------------+
|  SMTP: <alexlh@funk.org>       |  E-Gold: 101979   |
|  ICBM: N52 22.64'6 E4 51.54'1  |  PGP: 0x1d512a3f  |
+--------------------------------+-------------------+


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  1:45:47 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from lion.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [194.87.112.252])
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:45:22 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101414400.9907-100000@lion.butya.kz>
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	Hello,

	Currently I'm trying to determine a reasonable set of NetWare
utilities which should be included in the source tree. 

	ncplib isn't just a NetWare file system. It also provides services
similar to original NetWare client from Novell. Below I'll put a short
description for each utility. If you think that one of them shouldn't be
included in the source tree please let me know.

	mount_nwfs	- similar to mount_nfs
	ncplogin        - creates permanent connection to a NetWare server
                  	  without an actual mount,                         
	ncplogout       - destroy permanent connection,
	ncplist         - displays various information about client itself
                  	  and NetWare servers,
	ncprint         - allows to send job to NetWare printer,
	ncpsend         - sends message to NetWare user or server console,
	ncplpd          - simple NetWare print server,
	ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
	ncpsvc          - remote control for a NetWare server,
	ncpasswd        - allows to change password for a NetWare user.

	There also PAM module which allow to do authentication through
NetWare server. All utilities share same code which can be either linked
statically or dynamically via libncp.so.X library.

	Next question is a 'where it will live ?' I think that userland
part should go in src/contrib/ncplib with appropriate makefiles in usr.bin
and usr.sbin. And kernel module can go into sys/contrib/[ncplib|nwfs].
This will help to keep sources in synch with original ncplib source tree.

	I will appreciate all questions, suggestions and recommendations.

	Thanks in advance.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  2: 2:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:29:57 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Subject: RE: NetWare client in -current
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
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On 10-Sep-99 Boris Popov wrote:
>       mount_nwfs      - similar to mount_nfs
>       ncplogin        - creates permanent connection to a NetWare server
>                         without an actual mount,                         
>       ncplogout       - destroy permanent connection,
>       ncplist         - displays various information about client itself
>                         and NetWare servers,
>       ncprint         - allows to send job to NetWare printer,
>       ncpsend         - sends message to NetWare user or server console,
>       ncplpd          - simple NetWare print server,
>       ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
>       ncpsvc          - remote control for a NetWare server,
>       ncpasswd        - allows to change password for a NetWare user.

Is there any reason to not have it as a port?

The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be mount_nwfs
because building it without the kernel source could be a problem, but the rest
of it could be a port I think :)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  2:30:26 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:24:31 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <19990910122431.B99718@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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	hackers@freebsd.org
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 06:29:57PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> 
> On 10-Sep-99 Boris Popov wrote:
> >       mount_nwfs      - similar to mount_nfs
> >       ncplogin        - creates permanent connection to a NetWare server
> >                         without an actual mount,                         
> >       ncplogout       - destroy permanent connection,
> >       ncplist         - displays various information about client itself
> >                         and NetWare servers,
> >       ncprint         - allows to send job to NetWare printer,
> >       ncpsend         - sends message to NetWare user or server console,
> >       ncplpd          - simple NetWare print server,
> >       ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
> >       ncpsvc          - remote control for a NetWare server,
> >       ncpasswd        - allows to change password for a NetWare user.
> 
> Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> 
IMHO, only the basic IPX/SPX functionality should be included into the
source tree.  Anything else could be available as ports/net/nw-utils.

-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  2:34:34 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:16:26 +0200
From: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
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Subject: 32+ signals: new patches
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Hi,

New patches can be found on http://www.FreeBSD.org/~marcel/signal/

I'm currently running my system with the complete set of patches, including
world. After solving how to do the integration and after creating the
proper patches for alpha systems, this should be ready for inclusion. So,
if you got something to say, say it now.

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  2:52:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from lion.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [194.87.112.252])
	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7EC14A10
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	id 11PNLE-0002wo-00; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:51:36 +0700
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:51:36 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: RE: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910182957.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

> Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> 
> The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be mount_nwfs
> because building it without the kernel source could be a problem, but the rest
> of it could be a port I think :)

	Yes, that's acceptable. But mount_nwfs require libncp.so and this 
means that ncp library sources will be also required. So KLD, mount_nwfs
and libncp should go into source tree and other utilities can be a port.

	Other thoughts ?

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3: 3:57 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:58:52 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
Cc: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:

> > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > 
> IMHO, only the basic IPX/SPX functionality should be included into the
> source tree.  Anything else could be available as ports/net/nw-utils.

	An IPX/SPX stack is already in the tree and past year made it more
or less functional.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3:13:21 1999
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From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <19990910131026.B10140@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 04:58:52PM +0700, Boris Popov wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:
> 
> > > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > > 
> > IMHO, only the basic IPX/SPX functionality should be included into the
> > source tree.  Anything else could be available as ports/net/nw-utils.
> 
> 	An IPX/SPX stack is already in the tree and past year made it more
> or less functional.
> 
Read: I fully agree with Daniel.

Forgive me my ignorance, but I'd like a quick response: what about multiple
ethernet frames for IPX?  Is it supported in -current?  In -stable?


Thanks,
-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3:22:25 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 06:22:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: Lutz Albers <lutz@muc.de>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <650359425.936953229@ripley.tavari.muc.de>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Lutz Albers wrote:

> --On Freitag, 10. September 1999, 10:56 +0930 Daniel O'Connor
> <doconnor@gsoft.com.au> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > On 09-Sep-99 Nate Williams wrote:
> >>  VM doesn't do HTML/MIME very well, although I understand in later
> >>  versions of XEmacs they've incorporated some packages that handle things
> >>  better.  (I'm still using XEmacs 19.16, from the dark ages...)
> > 
> > Does it do IMAP? I have only seen *1* emailer which does IMAP properly
> > (xfmail) all the others either don't support it at all, or treat IMAP
> > like POP (ie just fetch mail from INBOX).
> 
> It claims to do IMAP4, but it just fetches all messages from the server
> (and by default deleting it from the server). There are very few good IMAP4
> clients out there :-(

xfmail?  Doesn't do that here and I use it daily for all of my internal
stuff.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
       # include <std/disclaimers.h>                   TEAM-OS2
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3:24:30 1999
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From: Reinier Bezuidenhout <rbezuide@oskar.nanoteq.co.za>
Message-Id: <199909101023.MAA09680@oskar.nanoteq.co.za>
Subject: Endless loop in libpcap 2.2.x/3.x/-current
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:23:14 +0200 (SAT)
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--ELM936958994-8969-0_
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Hi ...

We are running a system where we use the libpcap to capture
packets from an ethernet device.  We've been observing a problem where
the monitor program goes into an endless loop and spins for ever.

I've compiled the program with debugging on and observed that the
call-back function is called repeatedly from the libpcap library.

I examined the library and ended up in the pcap_read function in 
pcap-bpf.c

The code follows
snip - snip - snip

round line 110 in 2.2.x  and in -current

------------------

#define bhp ((struct bpf_hdr *)bp)
        ep = bp + cc;
        while (bp < ep) {
                register int caplen, hdrlen;
                caplen = bhp->bh_caplen;
                hdrlen = bhp->bh_hdrlen;
                /*
                 * XXX A bpf_hdr matches a pcap_pkthdr.
                 */
                (*callback)(user, (struct pcap_pkthdr*)bp, bp + hdrlen);
                bp += BPF_WORDALIGN(caplen + hdrlen);
                if (++n >= cnt && cnt > 0) {
                        p->bp = bp;     
                        p->cc = ep - bp;
                        return (n);
                }
        }
#undef bhp
        p->cc = 0;
        return (n);

----------

In our case (from the debug info obtained from our program, I can see that
bhp->bh_caplen and bhp->bh_hdrlen are both zero (0).

(gdb) p *(struct bpf_hdr *)pkt
$11 = {bh_tstamp = {tv_sec = 16652, tv_usec = 0}, bh_caplen = 0, 
  bh_datalen = 33555200, bh_hdrlen = 0}

pkt is bp received back from libpcap.

cnt is -1 when we installed the callback function.

As can be seen ... caplen and hdrlen is then set to 0. bp is smaller
than ep because cc >0 (data was read)

It enters the while loop, set caplen, hdrlen to 0, calls the callback
function.  libpcap then tries to increment bp with the BPF_WORDALIGN
macro.
From bpf.h
#define BPF_ALIGNMENT sizeof(long)
#define BPF_WORDALIGN(x) (((x)+(BPF_ALIGNMENT-1))&~(BPF_ALIGNMENT-1))

This concludes to 
(gdb) p (((0)+(sizeof(long)-1))&~(sizeof(long)-1))
$12 = 0

so bp is NOT incremented and the whole process is repeated and here it
gets stuck in the loop.

I attached a possible fix for this, please review, edit as necessar and
commit :)

The patch is to -current file, put should apply to most other versions
too.

Thankyou

Reinier

--ELM936958994-8969-0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=pcap.diff
Content-Description: /tmp/pcap.diff
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Index: pcap-bpf.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/freebsd-cvs/src/contrib/libpcap/pcap-bpf.c,v
retrieving revision 1.1.1.3
diff -c -r1.1.1.3 pcap-bpf.c
*** pcap-bpf.c	1998/09/15 19:28:05	1.1.1.3
--- pcap-bpf.c	1999/09/10 10:11:49
***************
*** 117,122 ****
--- 117,130 ----
  		 * XXX A bpf_hdr matches a pcap_pkthdr.
  		 */
  		(*callback)(user, (struct pcap_pkthdr*)bp, bp + hdrlen);
+ 		/* 
+ 		 * If we can't increment bp, get out of the while 
+ 		 * We've atleast called the callback with the data 
+ 		 * we have at out disposal - NB : it might be garbage
+ 		 */
+ 		if (!BPF_WORDALIGN(caplen + hdrlen)) {
+ 			break;
+ 		}
  		bp += BPF_WORDALIGN(caplen + hdrlen);
  		if (++n >= cnt && cnt > 0) {
  			p->bp = bp;

--ELM936958994-8969-0_--


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3:30:47 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:24:00 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <19990910131026.B10140@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:

> > 	An IPX/SPX stack is already in the tree and past year made it more
> > or less functional.
> > 
> Read: I fully agree with Daniel.

	Daniel also left mount_nwfs :)
> 
> Forgive me my ignorance, but I'd like a quick response: what about multiple
> ethernet frames for IPX?  Is it supported in -current?  In -stable?

	There is an if_ef driver which supports all four ethernet frames
for IPX protocol and can be easily adapted for others (see
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ipxen.html for details).  It requires two simple
patches to sys/net/if.c file and work on both -current and -stable.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  3:47:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:43:53 +0300
From: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <19990910134353.D10140@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 05:24:00PM +0700, Boris Popov wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:
> 
> > > 	An IPX/SPX stack is already in the tree and past year made it more
> > > or less functional.
> > > 
> > Read: I fully agree with Daniel.
> 
> 	Daniel also left mount_nwfs :)
> 
All kernel-related staff (protocol, file-system support and required libraries)
should be available in the tree.  Everything else as a port(s).

> > Forgive me my ignorance, but I'd like a quick response: what about multiple
> > ethernet frames for IPX?  Is it supported in -current?  In -stable?
> 
> 	There is an if_ef driver which supports all four ethernet frames
> for IPX protocol and can be easily adapted for others (see
> http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ipxen.html for details).  It requires two simple
> patches to sys/net/if.c file and work on both -current and -stable.
> 
That's really cool, good job!


-- 
Ruslan Ermilov		Sysadmin and DBA of the
ru@ucb.crimea.ua	United Commercial Bank,
ru@FreeBSD.org		FreeBSD committer,
+380.652.247.647	Simferopol, Ukraine

http://www.FreeBSD.org	The Power To Serve
http://www.oracle.com	Enabling The Information Age


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  4:16:20 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:51:36 +0700."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101646100.9907-100000@lion.butya.kz> 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 19:15:56 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Boris Popov wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > 
> > The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be mount_n
    wfs
> > because building it without the kernel source could be a problem, but the r
    est
> > of it could be a port I think :)
> 
> 	Yes, that's acceptable. But mount_nwfs require libncp.so and this 
> means that ncp library sources will be also required. So KLD, mount_nwfs
> and libncp should go into source tree and other utilities can be a port.
> 
> 	Other thoughts ?

I'm really not sure I see the value in splitting it up like that.. Are
things like ncplogin required to support mount_nwfs?  Personally, I think
it might be better to take the whole lot and later on (nearer 4.0 time)
decide if it's worth splitting the ncp* off to a port if it's worth doing.
Otherwise version skew is going to be a hassle while it's under
development.

Cheers,
-Peter




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  4:22:45 1999
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To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:36:39 +0200."
             <37D8B507.CC33F50F@scc.nl> 
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Marcel Moolenaar wrote:
> You have the problem; you also have the solution. I don't want the complete
> history of development bundled in a library. That's my problem. Now tell me
> how do I solve it?

Well, yes, this is a problem, and I cannot offer a solution. I only 
will say the following only as a consolation: you are already having 
the complete history of development in the kernel, so you have this 
problem anyway, admittely of a different size. Then, every time you say 
"recompile!", you partially defeat the purpose of the compatibility in
the kernel - you are forcing the people to quickly get rid of most old 
binaries anyway.

> > You described the existing situation. You could notice that I suggest to
> > change it.
> 
> Strange. You are the one that is also refering to rules and standards that
> are in use now and you are using that to validate your point. Now you are
> telling me that you actually are diverting from the rules and a proposing a
> change? Why am I having this discussion?

FreeBSD 4.0 currently have a nice feature - libc compatibility with 
FreeBSD 3.x. That is, I can link a program build on 3.x with the libc 
build from src/lib/libc on -current, either dynamically or statically.
I also can do it in other way around. I _use_ this feature every 
day. (Note: this feature is traditional. You was mostly able to do the 
same with 2.2.x and 3.0 (if you stuck with aout) - the major version number 
was not bumped in 3.0. You actually could do the same with 2.1 and 2.2 
- the incompatibility between libc.so.2.2 and libc.so.3.0 was mostly 
imaginary, and people used to symlink libc.so.2.2 to libc.so.3.0 and 
most program worked.)

Now, you are going to break the feature. What do you offer in return? 
32+ signals. I am probably not going to use the new feature. You hardly
will find a lot of people who desperately need it: most people don't care
at all, most of other would need to deal with 3.x with only 32 signals
anyway. OTOH, the compatibility feature will be more important for quite
a few people when 4.0-BETA and 4.0-RELEASE will be released. So, I don't
think it is a reasonable tradeoff.

Thus, I object. Please don't break the compatibility. Perhaps, restrict 
it to kernel internals and the linux emulator, if you need it for linux 
emulation.

The solution I suggest, of course, will partially break the compatibility
feature anyway. But only in a relative small part. This may be a 
reasonable tradeoff.

If you just don't want to implement the thing I suggest - OK. I am 
willing to do it myself (but "not today").

[perhaps, I will answer the rest of your mail later]

Dima




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  5:30:27 1999
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To: Dmitrij Tejblum <tejblum@arc.hq.cti.ru>
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Subject: Re: 32+ signals and library versions
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Dmitrij Tejblum wrote:

> FreeBSD 4.0 currently have a nice feature - libc compatibility with
> FreeBSD 3.x. That is, I can link a program build on 3.x with the libc
> build from src/lib/libc on -current, either dynamically or statically.
> I also can do it in other way around. I _use_ this feature every
> day. (Note: this feature is traditional. You was mostly able to do the
> same with 2.2.x and 3.0 (if you stuck with aout) - the major version number
> was not bumped in 3.0. You actually could do the same with 2.1 and 2.2
> - the incompatibility between libc.so.2.2 and libc.so.3.0 was mostly
> imaginary, and people used to symlink libc.so.2.2 to libc.so.3.0 and
> most program worked.)

You can compile programs on -stable and let them run on -current. This
holds for both staticly and dynamicly linked binaries. This is what
backwards compatibility is all about. Compiling on -current and running on
-stable can give you problems.

> Now, you are going to break the feature. What do you offer in return?

It's not a feature. It happens to be that way sometimes in the chain of
events.

> 32+ signals. I am probably not going to use the new feature. You hardly
> will find a lot of people who desperately need it: most people don't care
> at all, most of other would need to deal with 3.x with only 32 signals
> anyway. OTOH, the compatibility feature will be more important for quite
> a few people when 4.0-BETA and 4.0-RELEASE will be released. So, I don't
> think it is a reasonable tradeoff.

FUD. I don't see anyone else complaining. OTOH, I do receive implicit and
explicit support in changing sigset_t.

> Thus, I object. Please don't break the compatibility. Perhaps, restrict
> it to kernel internals and the linux emulator, if you need it for linux
> emulation.

I now understand your point of view. It doesn't really have anything to do
with whether or not we should have a version bump. Your arguments are
simply rooted in your way of programming and/or compiling and the (false)
assumption that you can depend on libc being interchangable across
different versions of FreeBSD.

> The solution I suggest, of course, will partially break the compatibility
> feature anyway. But only in a relative small part. This may be a
> reasonable tradeoff.

I don't see how your solution can maintain a higher degree of compatibility
then a version dump. In both cases you can run -stable binaries on -current
but not the other way around.

> [perhaps, I will answer the rest of your mail later]

I do hope so. I think that adding functions to hide datatype changes have
more drawbacks then version bumps, but I may be mistaken. Nonetheless, it's
an important issue.

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  5:36:30 1999
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To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Jason Young <doogie@anet-stl.com>,
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

> 
> On 09-Sep-99 Jason Young wrote:
> >  After some thought, I think the mount option idea is best. I hadn't
> >  thought of that before. One might want to apply different procfs
> >  security policies to different mounts of procfs, especially in a
> >  jail() situation. Good call.
> 
> Yeah, you'd have to make sure procfs doesn't mind being mounted multiple times,
> something I'm not sure is true.

Also, don't forget about sysctl. kvm will defend itself with permissions
on /dev/kme, but sysctl is available for reading to anyone (see
src/release/picobsd/tinyware/sps to see what i mean).

Andrzej Bialecki

//  <abial@webgiro.com> WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------
// ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org --------
// --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ----



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  6:10:54 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:06:50 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Cc: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-Reply-To: <19990910111556.BC5731CA8@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Peter Wemm wrote:

> > 	Yes, that's acceptable. But mount_nwfs require libncp.so and this 
> > means that ncp library sources will be also required. So KLD, mount_nwfs
> > and libncp should go into source tree and other utilities can be a port.
> > 
> > 	Other thoughts ?
> 
> I'm really not sure I see the value in splitting it up like that.. Are
> things like ncplogin required to support mount_nwfs?  Personally, I think
> it might be better to take the whole lot and later on (nearer 4.0 time)
> decide if it's worth splitting the ncp* off to a port if it's worth doing.
> Otherwise version skew is going to be a hassle while it's under
> development.

	Thats why I suggested an original scheme...

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  6:33:29 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:04:54 +0200
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Boris Popov wrote:

>         Currently I'm trying to determine a reasonable set of NetWare
> utilities which should be included in the source tree.

Is it possible to have utilities to query and modify NDS?

>         ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,

From a user perspective, is salvaging not also important?

-- 
Marcel Moolenaar                        mailto:marcel@scc.nl
SCC Internetworking & Databases           http://www.scc.nl/
The FreeBSD project                mailto:marcel@FreeBSD.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  7:18:13 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 21:14:23 +0700 (NSS)
From: Max Khon <fjoe@iclub.nsu.ru>
To: nick.hibma@jrc.it
Cc: barrett@phoenix.aye.net, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: dropped connections (fwd)
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hi, there

> ee does the same. The reason is that the program does not check for EOF
> on stdin, it continuously loops. It's a bug in the program. The thing
> that could have been changed is a signal from the shell that is no
> longer sent or so.
> 
> The problem is the program, not the OS.
> 
> It might be wortwhile to find the problem, solve and send the patch to
> the maintainer of the port and the original author.

the problem is in out ncurses (in -stable)
I've submitted a PR (http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=13679)

Please please please take a look at it as we (here at NSU)
would like to see fixed ncurses in 3.3-RELEASE
(I think ncurses 5 never would be MFC'ed to -stable?)

Thanks

/fjoe



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  7:27:26 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:26:12 -0400
From: Robert Sexton <robert@kudra.com>
To: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@funk.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Superblock.
Message-ID: <19990910102612.C31537@tabby.kudra.com>
References: <14294.41194.422190.809990@trooper.velocet.ca> <19990910102626.A5384@funk.org>
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 10:26:26AM +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I once had a similar situation: I had wiped my disklabel.

<Useful help deleted>

I know its easy to suggest somebody else do things, but turning this
into software might make for a very handy salvage tool, without a lot
of work for the author.  We seem to have folks popping up often
looking for little projects.  

I wonder how many folks have toasted drives in a recoverable way and
not bothered to ask for help....

-- 
Robert Sexton - robert@kudra.com, Cincinnati OH, USA
There's safety in numbers... Large prime numbers. - John Gilmore
Read the Newton FAQ! <http://www.kudra.com/newton/newton-faq>


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  8:20:55 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: RE: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910182957.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> On 10-Sep-99 Boris Popov wrote:
> >       mount_nwfs      - similar to mount_nfs
> >       ncplogin        - creates permanent connection to a NetWare server
> >                         without an actual mount,                         
> >       ncplogout       - destroy permanent connection,
> >       ncplist         - displays various information about client itself
> >                         and NetWare servers,
> >       ncprint         - allows to send job to NetWare printer,
> >       ncpsend         - sends message to NetWare user or server console,
> >       ncplpd          - simple NetWare print server,
> >       ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
> >       ncpsvc          - remote control for a NetWare server,
> >       ncpasswd        - allows to change password for a NetWare user.
> 
> Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> 
> The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be
> mount_nwfs because building it without the kernel source could be a
> problem, but the rest of it could be a port I think :)

Thats like suggesting we make the 'ipfw' command a port and leave the
kernel bits in the tree.  Since all this stuff depends on being in sync,
the only reasonable way to do this is to put it in the tree.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  8:30:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:30:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jamie Bowden <ragnar@sysabend.org>
To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990910105627.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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Approved: yep
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:

:Does it do IMAP? I have only seen *1* emailer which does IMAP properly (xfmail)
:all the others either don't support it at all, or treat IMAP like POP (ie just
:fetch mail from INBOX).

Pine does IMAP just fine.  I used to use it to read mail on box a, with
incoming accessd via box b, and storage on box c.  Now I just forward
everything to one account and procmail it all.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)

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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  8:58:44 1999
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To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:19:26 -0400."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101118140.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net> 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 23:58:17 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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"Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> > On 10-Sep-99 Boris Popov wrote:
> > >       mount_nwfs      - similar to mount_nfs
> > >       ncplogin        - creates permanent connection to a NetWare server
> > >                         without an actual mount,                         
> > >       ncplogout       - destroy permanent connection,
> > >       ncplist         - displays various information about client itself
> > >                         and NetWare servers,
> > >       ncprint         - allows to send job to NetWare printer,
> > >       ncpsend         - sends message to NetWare user or server console,
> > >       ncplpd          - simple NetWare print server,
> > >       ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
> > >       ncpsvc          - remote control for a NetWare server,
> > >       ncpasswd        - allows to change password for a NetWare user.
> > 
> > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > 
> > The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be
> > mount_nwfs because building it without the kernel source could be a
> > problem, but the rest of it could be a port I think :)
> 
> Thats like suggesting we make the 'ipfw' command a port and leave the
> kernel bits in the tree.  Since all this stuff depends on being in sync,
> the only reasonable way to do this is to put it in the tree.

Or having mount_nfs in the base but moving nfsd/nfsiod/nfsstat to ports.
:-)

Cheers,
-Peter
--
Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  8:59: 6 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:57:20 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@scc.nl>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <37D901F6.2D844798@scc.nl>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Marcel Moolenaar wrote:

> >         Currently I'm trying to determine a reasonable set of NetWare
> > utilities which should be included in the source tree.
> 
> Is it possible to have utilities to query and modify NDS?

	I'm working on this (currently only queries). NDS library will be
separate package from ncplib.

> 
> >         ncpurge         - purge specified salvagable files,
> 
> From a user perspective, is salvaging not also important?

	Yes it is important, but requires dialogue with user because
there can be more than one deleted file with same name. I'm trying to get
Novell to respond on my query about source code for 'filer' utility but
they keeps quiet at the moment.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  9:43: 8 1999
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To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 16:51:36 +0700."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101646100.9907-100000@lion.butya.kz> 
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> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > 
> > The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be mount_nwfs
> > because building it without the kernel source could be a problem, but the rest
> > of it could be a port I think :)
> 
> 	Yes, that's acceptable. But mount_nwfs require libncp.so and this 
> means that ncp library sources will be also required. So KLD, mount_nwfs
> and libncp should go into source tree and other utilities can be a port.

You could still build the KLD as a port, actually.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10  9:52: 6 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
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To: Robert Sexton <robert@kudra.com>
Cc: Alex Le Heux <alexlh@funk.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
In-Reply-To: <19990910102612.C31537@tabby.kudra.com>
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At least one person has already written this program...

THeey have mentionned this  in the hackers list so maybe a search of the
list may turn something up..
withing th last 2 years from memory.

Julian


On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Robert Sexton wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 10:26:26AM +0200, Alex Le Heux wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I once had a similar situation: I had wiped my disklabel.
> 
> <Useful help deleted>
> 
> I know its easy to suggest somebody else do things, but turning this
> into software might make for a very handy salvage tool, without a lot
> of work for the author.  We seem to have folks popping up often
> looking for little projects.  
> 
> I wonder how many folks have toasted drives in a recoverable way and
> not bothered to ask for help....
> 
> -- 
> Robert Sexton - robert@kudra.com, Cincinnati OH, USA
> There's safety in numbers... Large prime numbers. - John Gilmore
> Read the Newton FAQ! <http://www.kudra.com/newton/newton-faq>
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 10: 5: 4 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 18:04:48 +0100
From: Josef Karthauser <joe@pavilion.net>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
Cc: Robert Sexton <robert@kudra.com>, Alex Le Heux <alexlh@funk.org>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Superblock.
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 09:51:50AM -0700, Julian Elischer wrote:
> At least one person has already written this program...
> 
> THeey have mentionned this  in the hackers list so maybe a search of the
> list may turn something up..
> withing th last 2 years from memory.
> 
> Julian

It's on my TODO list, honest :)  I've got the code, and just need to 
finish the tool.

Joe
-- 
Josef Karthauser	FreeBSD: How many times have you booted today?
Technical Manager	Viagra for your server (http://www.uk.freebsd.org)
Pavilion Internet plc.  [joe@pavilion.net, joe@uk.freebsd.org, joe@tao.org.uk]


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 10:19:22 1999
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"Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> > The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be
> > mount_nwfs because building it without the kernel source could be a
> > problem, but the rest of it could be a port I think :)
> Thats like suggesting we make the 'ipfw' command a port and leave the
> kernel bits in the tree.  Since all this stuff depends on being in sync,
> the only reasonable way to do this is to put it in the tree.

Why? What kernel code does this need?

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 10:29:20 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
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On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
> "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> > > The only possible candidate for contrib'ifying I could see would be
> > > mount_nwfs because building it without the kernel source could be a
> > > problem, but the rest of it could be a port I think :)
> > Thats like suggesting we make the 'ipfw' command a port and leave the
> > kernel bits in the tree.  Since all this stuff depends on being in sync,
> > the only reasonable way to do this is to put it in the tree.
> 
> Why? What kernel code does this need?

The ncpfs kernel code for one.

We're talking about less than 500k of code here.

You want to take the anti-bloatist stance you'll have to do better than
that.  Try libreadline for starters.  :)

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 10:39:27 1999
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 03:08:40 +0930
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>
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To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>,
	Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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"Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
> > Why? What kernel code does this need?
> The ncpfs kernel code for one.
> We're talking about less than 500k of code here.
> You want to take the anti-bloatist stance you'll have to do better than
> that.  Try libreadline for starters.  :)

Bah like I care enough to care ;)

If it has a fair amount of kernel code then its a good idea..
Also as you pointed out, it aids interoperability..

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 10:58:24 1999
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Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au> 
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On Sat, 11 Sep 1999 03:08:40 +0930, "Daniel O'Connor" wrote:
>
>"Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
>> You want to take the anti-bloatist stance you'll have to do better than
>> that.  Try libreadline for starters.  :)
>
>Bah like I care enough to care ;)

Yow!  I had no idea it was so large!

I have an (as yet still incomplete) full-screen text-editor library I
wrote a long time ago - in C++ even - that supports (on a terminal using
termlib but not curses) full-screen editing, simultaneous "live"
multiple overlapping windows/views of buffers, full left/right up/down
scrolling, line-numbering, unlimited undo/redo including any buffer
marks, regular-expression searching, and arbitrary depth key-bindings.

It's less than half the size of libreadline.

I am so depressed.


	-- Parag Patel


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11: 7:25 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:07:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Parag Patel wrote:
> I have an (as yet still incomplete) full-screen text-editor library I
> wrote a long time ago - in C++ even - that supports (on a terminal using
> termlib but not curses) full-screen editing, simultaneous "live"
> multiple overlapping windows/views of buffers, full left/right up/down
> scrolling, line-numbering, unlimited undo/redo including any buffer
> marks, regular-expression searching, and arbitrary depth key-bindings.
> 
> It's less than half the size of libreadline.
> 
> I am so depressed.

Clean it up and add perl bindings to it.  Thats something that perl sorely
misses.  Come to think of it, libedit could use perl bindings...  Hummm...

Kevin?  :)

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:15:23 1999
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Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net> 
   of "Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:07:12 EDT." <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101406380.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net> 
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:07:12 EDT, "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote:
>
>Clean it up and add perl bindings to it.  Thats something that perl sorely
>misses.  Come to think of it, libedit could use perl bindings...  Hummm...

Gaah - another big line-editing library!  My editor's even smaller than
libedit!

   text    data     bss     dec     hex filename
  60113    4352       0   64465    fbd1 /usr/lib/libedit.so
 117406   14004    1464  132874   2070a /usr/lib/libreadline.so
  48843     636    4492   53971    d2d3 tst

I'll add my editing package to my things-to-clean-up list and make it
available when I next have some time.

I've never cared for perl tho'.  

Growing up programming on a KL-10, I still think the correct place for
line-editing is in the driver.  Hell - it's already doing basic
erase/kill line editing as it is.  Then you don't have to hack every
command-line app to get line-editing.


	-- Parag Patel


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:23:25 1999
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Subject: Re: Superblock. 
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		<Pine.BSF.4.05.9909100950060.1186-100000@home.elischer.org> 
References: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909100950060.1186-100000@home.elischer.org>  
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:22:22 -0600
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In message <Pine.BSF.4.05.9909100950060.1186-100000@home.elischer.org> Julian Elischer writes:
: At least one person has already written this program...

I wrote one, but didn't post it.  Someone else wrote one and did post
it.  It really is bog simple to get a good first guess.  Harder to get
it perfect.
	Message-ID: <376E42BD.117B32DA@pobox.com>
	Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:48:45 +0000
	From: Niall Smart <niall@pobox.com>

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:23:40 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:23:28 -0700
From: Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>,
	"Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <19990910112328.A62334@wopr.caltech.edu>
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On Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 02:07:12PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:

> Clean it up and add perl bindings to it.  Thats something that perl sorely
> misses.  Come to think of it, libedit could use perl bindings...  Hummm...

/usr/ports/devel/p5-ReadLine-Gnu

Also /usr/ports/devel/p5-ReadLine-Perl, which is pure Perl, instead of
using an external library.

If you say "use Term::ReadLine", Perl will use either of those if
available, or use a useless dummy version that ships with Perl otherwise.

Bindings for libedit which are compatible with these would be cool.

-- 
Matthew Hunt <mph@astro.caltech.edu> * UNIX is a lever for the
http://www.pobox.com/~mph/           * intellect. -J.R. Mashey


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:24:17 1999
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To: "Daniel O'Connor" <darius@dons.net.au>
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current 
Cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>,
	"Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Sep 1999 02:48:29 +0930."
		<37D93D65.627AD43@dons.net.au> 
References: <37D93D65.627AD43@dons.net.au>  <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101118140.14497-100000@sasami.jurai.net> 
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:23:05 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <37D93D65.627AD43@dons.net.au> "Daniel O'Connor" writes:
: > Thats like suggesting we make the 'ipfw' command a port and leave the
: > kernel bits in the tree.  Since all this stuff depends on being in sync,
: > the only reasonable way to do this is to put it in the tree.
: 
: Why? What kernel code does this need?

The IPFILTER kernel option.  ipfw just builds the IPFILTER kernel tables.

Warner


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:30:37 1999
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From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Jamie Bowden <ragnar@sysabend.org>
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On 10-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote:
> :fetch mail from INBOX).
>  Pine does IMAP just fine.  I used to use it to read mail on box a, with
>  incoming accessd via box b, and storage on box c.  Now I just forward
>  everything to one account and procmail it all.

Umm.. welll I'd like to know to enable sub folder support in it then..
Haveing multiple accounts on different machines would be nice too (then it
could do what xfmail can)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:31: 8 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:33:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Rosengart <ben@skunk.org>
To: David Scheidt <dscheidt@enteract.com>
Cc: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 3.2-STABLE SMP system not SMP'ing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.990910131017.10501A-100000@shell-2.enteract.com>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, David Scheidt wrote:

> It looks like something ate your attachments.  Try setting all the values
> that mtable reports on.

<sheepish>
I think I just forgot them.
</>

I uncommented 

options NCPU=2                  # number of CPUs 
options NBUS=4                  # number of busses
options NAPIC=1                 # number of IO APICs
options NINTR=24                # number of INTs 

and now the SMP works!  Thank you.

I was under the impression that these options represented defaults, and
that the other two were the only ones that had to be uncommented for
SMP.  Any chance that LINT or GENERIC could get some more informative
comments on this?  I'd offer diffs, but I don't know whether all six
options are necessary, or some subset.  I've cc'd this to hackers for
comments on this question.

--
 Ben Rosengart

UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
StarMedia Network, Inc.



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:34:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:34:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jamie Bowden <ragnar@sysabend.org>
To: "Daniel J. O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.990911040019.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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Approved: yep
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On Sat, 11 Sep 1999, Daniel J. O'Connor wrote:

:
:On 10-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote:
:> :fetch mail from INBOX).
:>  Pine does IMAP just fine.  I used to use it to read mail on box a, with
:>  incoming accessd via box b, and storage on box c.  Now I just forward
:>  everything to one account and procmail it all.
:
:Umm.. welll I'd like to know to enable sub folder support in it then..
:Haveing multiple accounts on different machines would be nice too (then it
:could do what xfmail can)

In 'Incoming Folders' type 'a' and it will ask you for the server name to
add.

Jamie Bowden

-- 

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:38:26 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:42:43 -0700
From: Sanjay Waghray <sw@home.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Wall Street Journal on Open source OS (9/10/99)
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Attached is an article from the Wall Street Journal Online Edition.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

September 10, 1999 




               Beyond Linux, Free Systems
               Do Their Bit to Build Web

               By LEE GOMES 
               Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

               Here's a little-known fact about the world's busiest Web
               site: It runs on a piece of free software. And it isn't the
               free operating system called Linux.

               To serve nearly 80 million people each month, Yahoo!
               Inc. operates about 1,000 computers that run on
               FreeBSD, a program distributed without charge over the
               Internet. FreeBSD is the most popular in a trio of free
               operating systems -- all historically linked to the
               University of California at Berkeley -- that are quietly
               playing a major role in the evolution of the Internet.

               Among operating systems, the
               internal engines that run
               computers, Linux has stolen the
               spotlight lately, as supporters
               hope it will eventually challenge
               the dominance of Microsoft
               Corp.'s Windows. The initial
               public offering of Red Hat Inc., the Linux software
               vendor, was one of the hottest deals on Wall Street this
               summer.

               But the role of FreeBSD and its cousins shows how free
               programs keep changing the software world and creating
               headaches for big established players. Sun Microsystems
               Inc., a leader in managing big Web sites, is carefully
               watching the growth of Linux and other free programs.
               And Microsoft faces a particularly significant challenge,
               since the Redmond, Wash., company wants its
               forthcoming Windows 2000 to dominate the "dot-com"
               world where the freebies are strong.

               "With Linux capturing the public imagination, the BSDs
               have gotten lost in the noise," said International Data
               Corp. analyst Dan Kusnetzky. "But they are very
               sophisticated technologies that do a lot of work in the
               world, even if people don't know about them."

               The BSD programs and Linux actually share a common
               lineage, a collective development process and a
               rambunctious cast of characters.

               The free programs are all variants of the venerable Unix
               system invented by AT&T Corp. And they aren't just
               running Yahoo. While Microsoft almost never talks
               about it, its own Hotmail free e-mail service runs not on
               its flagship Windows NT but on FreeBSD.

               In fact, one recent survey showed that BSD accounted
               for nearly 15% of all server machines connected to the
               Internet. Linux leads the pack with 31%,and is the only
               major operating system making any gains. Windows had
               24%.

               The Linux saga is already
               the stuff of modern legend.
               In 1991, Linus Torvalds, a
               21-year-old student in
               Helsinki, began writing an
               operating system
               essentially from scratch so
               he could have something to
               use on his home computer.
               The programs FreeBSD,
               NetBSD and OpenBSD, by
               contrast, are the
               descendants of code
               written in the late 1970s
               and early 1980s at UC
               Berkeley.

               Factional battles and online fusillades between and
               among the various BSDs and Linux are common.
               OpenBSD was started in 1995 by Theo de Raadt, a
               mountain biking 31-year-old Canadian after being kicked
               out of the NetBSD movement.

               'Open Source'

               BSD buffs like to think of themselves as a slightly more
               grown-up version of the "open source" movement, which
               distributes underlying programming instructions so users
               can study and modify software. While Mr. Torvalds has
               full control of Linux, for example, FreeBSD is overseen
               by a 15-person group called the "Core." What's more,
               the various BSDs say that their software, by virtue of its
               head start on Linux, is more mature and stable.

               "We didn't write most of this code, so we don't have a
               lot of ego involved in getting people to use it," says
               Jordan K. Hubbard, 36 years old, an evangelist for
               FreeBSD who many people credit for its popularity.

               David Filo is one fan. The co-founder of Yahoo says he
               tried several operating systems before settling on
               FreeBSD. Now, Yahoo has become a major sponsor. At
               FreeBSD's first users' convention, to be held next month
               in Berkeley, Yahoo is paying to fly in some key
               developers. Mr. Filo said he would still use FreeBSD if
               he could do it over again, since his team now has so
               much experience with the software. But for someone
               starting out, he says, he might recommend Linux. "Right
               now, there seems to be more energy and resources
               behind it," he says.

               Such sentiments make some people wonder what the
               future is for the BSDs in a world where Linux is getting
               most of the "mindshare."

               Mr. Hubbard says the ranks of FreeBSD users continue
               to swell. One reason is that all BSDs are distributed
               under a license that lets users do almost anything with
               them -- including put the software into traditional
               commercial products. The Linux license, by contrast,
               requires users to make any use of the software -- such as
               a piece of specialized computer networking gear --
               freely available to everyone else. That restriction that
               keeps many companies from using Linux in key products.

               It might well make sense for the BSDs to put aside their
               differences and unite under a common set of specs. But
               peace may be too much to expect in the free software
               world. Two of the BSDs tried to merge a few years ago,
               recalls Charles M. Hannum, a programmer with the
               NetBSD project. But at a meeting between the two
               camps, "while everyone agreed it was a good idea," he
               says, "no one wanted to give anything up, and it just fell
               apart."



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 11:47: 0 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:53:15 -0400
From: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
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Good day.
This is part one of what is (hopefully) will be my long and hard look in the
IP routing in FreeBSD as we know it. I must admit that i am out of shape on
many subjects and so much of this data may be wrong because of me doing
the Wrong Thing.
Anyway - these are the compressed results of day of testing.
Machine - Celeron 450MHZ (overclocked) , 128Mb ram, WD IDE drive,
                 NE2000 compatible PCI 10Mbps card.
Test application: netpipe - do you know of anything better/more exact?
Test conditions: various packet sizes/amounts through the loopback.
Netowrk setup: with FIREWALL compiled in.
Here are some numbers (i am not going to give any long lists here, just a general idea).

a) Firewall set to pass everything. No other switching/routing.
1Kb data - 200Mb/s (thats Megabit just in case)
4Kb data - 400Mb/s
>4Kb data (up to 1Mb) - 400Mb/s

b) Firewall set to divert all traffic on lo0 to nat. Nat set in dynamic, does not translate
     anything obviously. (In this configuration any packet sent to nat will be matched against
     hash and immediately found a match. Since there is only one connection at a time,
     nat's hash has no chains of linked values and this therefore is as fast as it can work.)

1Kb data - 55Mb/s
4Kb data - 98Mb/s
>4Kb data - 100Mb/s

Quite consistently as you can see, moving packets betwin kernel and user world and
then back is 4 times slower then doing all the work in kernel.
Obviously the difference comes mostly from kernel/user switch, since the processing
of a packet is quite similar to kernel procedures and in fact should not be more then
a couple of firewall rules/routing table rules in time equality.

c) Simulating load on the machine. Well, i have no idea how to simulate a load of real
working Apache servers and in fact this will vary greately depending on multitude of
things. Loads siumlated therefore using make's of large applications (kernel, pine, tcsh etc).
nat is turned off. all ipfw rules flushed.

4Kb data sent.
0 makes - 400Mb/s
1 make - 310-320Mb/s
2 makes 220-240 Mb/s
3 makes 190-220 Mb/s

I am really not sure what to make of it, it is fairly linear which is expected, however i
am not sure how to translate it into real world's data (machine loaded with web applications,
mail etc). Looking at %% of CPU usage from top does not give a good idea of loads since
make is not a single process and numbers given for gcc etc running under it are quite low
and vary over time (1.5% - 3% as opposed to >40% for each netpipe process).

d) I did some tests on the actual Ethernet, however at home the best i have is this and another
machine and 10Mb crosslinked wire. The only thing i found (which is almost obvious without
testing) is that up to 4Kb maximal transfer rates are not reached. Around 4Kb transfer rate becomes
7Mb/s and stays there, raising top to 8Mb/s around 12Kb of data. 80% performance is quite
characteristic of the 10Mb/s ethernet but i have no bandwith to try nat etc since these
numbers are quite lower then speed if internal kernel switching.

Therefore if any of you are interested in deeper understanding of this whole thing and have
3 machines with 100Mb ethernet on them, i would appreciate access to those to do some more
thorough testing. Also if anyone is in NYC are and can loan me just one machine and a couple
of fast Ethernet cards - i can stage it right here at home.

I didn't look at the kernel code implementing fast switching so i don't know at this point if
loopback traffic ever passes that, however changing net.inet.ip.fastswitching to 1 did not
influence any of this data. What other options do we have to play with? MTU size?
What else? I am however looking for major numbers, not minor tweaking. Also if anyone
has a good idea about traffic switching speeds in "real" routers such as Cisco - i would
appreciate a look at that.

Thanx!
--Ugen




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 12: 1:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:01:43 -0400
From: Kevin Doherty <kdoherty@cosanostra.net>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
Message-ID: <19990910150143.A13751@cosanostra.net>
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And thus spake Matthew N. Dodd, on Fri, Sep 10, 1999 at 02:07:12PM -0400:
> Clean it up and add perl bindings to it.  Thats something that perl sorely
> misses.  Come to think of it, libedit could use perl bindings...  Hummm...
> 
> Kevin?  :)

Bleah, one thing at a time :)  Once I finish with my current project I'll
probably work on this if there's any interest, though.

--
Kevin Doherty, kdoherty@cosanostra.net
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."
       -- Rincewind (from _Eric_)


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 12: 6:55 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 04:35:45 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Jamie Bowden <ragnar@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On 10-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote:
> :Umm.. welll I'd like to know to enable sub folder support in it then..
> :Haveing multiple accounts on different machines would be nice too (then it
> :could do what xfmail can)
>  In 'Incoming Folders' type 'a' and it will ask you for the server name to
>  add.

I don't have an 'Incoming Folders' if I press A in 'Folder List' I get a
request for a folder name not a server name..

I'm about to try Pine 4.10 (I have 4.05)

---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
  -- Andrew Tanenbaum




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 12:14:45 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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	id 391D014A08; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
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	id 1FA201CD593; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:14:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>
Cc: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <19990910122431.B99718@relay.ucb.crimea.ua>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Ruslan Ermilov wrote:

> > Is there any reason to not have it as a port?
> > 
> IMHO, only the basic IPX/SPX functionality should be included into the
> source tree.  Anything else could be available as ports/net/nw-utils.

I tend to agree. If we bring in all of this stuff (even though I
appreciate it's very useful) we should also bring in samba into the base
tree by symmetry.

Kris



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 12:18:14 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:18:06 -0400 (EDT)
X-Face: *<Qp5V!eyV,gni`N^N%1YX'$I&uuX]ay;oq#ZL5Hn8EQsu'.oK0j9$#JM0V?!=Q^[i.81u9
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From: Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com>
To: "Daniel J. O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Subject: Re: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Jamie Bowden <ragnar@sysabend.org>
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On 10-Sep-99 Daniel J. O'Connor wrote:
> 
> On 10-Sep-99 Jamie Bowden wrote:
>> :Umm.. welll I'd like to know to enable sub folder support in it then..
>> :Haveing multiple accounts on different machines would be nice too (then it
>> :could do what xfmail can)
>>  In 'Incoming Folders' type 'a' and it will ask you for the server name to
>>  add.
> 
> I don't have an 'Incoming Folders' if I press A in 'Folder List' I get a
> request for a folder name not a server name..
> 
> I'm about to try Pine 4.10 (I have 4.05)

You'll need to enable incoming folders in the setup from the main menu.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH   email: vev@michvhf.com   flame-mail: /dev/null
       # include <std/disclaimers.h>                   TEAM-OS2
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 12:45:24 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [209.244.238.132])
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
Message-Id: <199909101943.PAA21064@hda.hda.com>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal on Open source OS (9/10/99)
In-Reply-To: <19990910104243.A1612@home.com> from Sanjay Waghray at "Sep 10, 99 10:42:43 am"
To: sw@home.com (Sanjay Waghray)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:43:43 -0400 (EDT)
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> Attached is an article from the Wall Street Journal Online Edition.

-hackers may be the wrong place for this, but I'll follow up
and note that this article is the headline article in the second section
("Marketplace" or "Marketing", I forget) in today's regular old print
version of the WSJ.

Peter

-- 
Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com)   Realtime development, Machine control,
HD Associates, Inc.               Safety critical systems, Agency approval


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 14:44: 1 1999
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	id AA29001; Fri, 10 Sep 99 14:42:55 PDT
Message-Id: <37D97B5F.1AEC5CCD@softweyr.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:42:55 -0600
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
To: Dirk GOUDERS <hank@musashi.et.bocholt.fh-ge.de>
Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: More press
References: <199909100712.JAA07562@musashi.et.bocholt.fh-ge.de>
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Dirk GOUDERS wrote:
> 
>  > There is a short but sweet[1] article on ZDNet today regarding FreeBSD:
>  >
>  > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/screensavers/answerstips/story/0,3656,2324624,00.html
> 
> Hmm, can't find that sweet thing -- typo?

Nope, it worked fine for me.  Given how short it is, this article really packs
a POSITIVE punch for FreeBSD.  Here's the text:

AlternaTip: FreeBSD    
 
By Kate Botello, Host  
 
We introduce a new operating system this week for our Alternatip. 
New to us, that is. It's actually the oldest operating system still
in common use today: FreeBSD.

We spend a lot of time talking about Linux, of course. Linux is a
Unix clone created by Linus Torvalds in 1991 because he wanted to 
use Unix but didn't want to pay for it. He should have waited a
year or two.
                       
FreeBSD is Unix, but because the Unix trademark is owned by Open
Systems, it can't be called Unix. You can make a pretty good case
that it's more Unix than the proprietary flavors of Unix that use
the name. FreeBSD is based on the Berkeley distribution of Unix,
but like Linux, it's completely free.
                       
It's also the choice of many companies who prefer it to the commercial
flavors of Unix. Yahoo!, Infoseek, and Excite all run on FreeBSD. 
So do Xoom, US West, and the Internet Movie Database.  In fact,
anyone who wants to run true Unix should probably look at FreeBSD
first.                 

FreeBSD is very like Linux in many ways. It runs all the standard
command shells, including BASH, and of course the X Window environment.
It can even run many Linux binaries, and nearly all Unix programs.
It differs from Linux in the volume of support and information out
there (but remember, all Unix books are directly applicable to
FreeBSD).
                       
You might find it more difficult to find just the right driver for
your hardware, so check the compatibility lists carefully before
installing. But if you're looking for the true Unix experience,
FreeBSD is the closest you can get, at any price.


-- 
            "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                         Softweyr LLC
http://softweyr.com/                                           wes@softweyr.com


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 14:49:13 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99])
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	id 4F03F15F89; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:49:09 -0700 (PDT)
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	Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:49:09 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:49:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
Cc: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>,
	"Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101213500.76113-100000@hub.freebsd.org>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> I tend to agree. If we bring in all of this stuff (even though I
> appreciate it's very useful) we should also bring in samba into the
> base tree by symmetry.

Thats the idea.  Once Boris gets a chance to finish cifsfs the plan is to
import it into the tree the same as the Netware client stuff.

You were maybe talking about Samba, which doesn't have any kernel
components or userland tools that are dependent on them.

An in-kernel SMB/CIFS server would be on the same order as the NFS server
support; something we would want to have in the tree so as to keep an eye
on it and lower maintainence cost for the developer.  (Not that this has
kept the NFS server code free of interesting incidents.)

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 17:30: 5 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758)
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	(envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>,
	Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101746180.975-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > I tend to agree. If we bring in all of this stuff (even though I
> > appreciate it's very useful) we should also bring in samba into the
> > base tree by symmetry.
> 
> Thats the idea.  Once Boris gets a chance to finish cifsfs the plan is to
> import it into the tree the same as the Netware client stuff.

Okay. If that's the plan, then I don't have any objections.

I do hate the idea of having to reimplement samba because of the licensing
though - it already does quite a good job at SMB serving, it seems a waste
to duplicate the effort instead of just adding kernel support to the
existing code.

Kris



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 17:37:30 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99])
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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:37:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
Cc: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>,
	"Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909101724300.68254-100000@hub.freebsd.org>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > Thats the idea.  Once Boris gets a chance to finish cifsfs the plan is to
> > import it into the tree the same as the Netware client stuff.
> 
> Okay. If that's the plan, then I don't have any objections.
> 
> I do hate the idea of having to reimplement samba because of the licensing
> though - it already does quite a good job at SMB serving, it seems a waste
> to duplicate the effort instead of just adding kernel support to the
> existing code.

SAMBA implements an SMB/CIFS server.  We're talking about client support.

-- 
| Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
| winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
| http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent  | ISO8802.5 4ever |



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 17:45:18 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758)
	id 9990614F2E; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
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	by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
	id 703D51CD5B2; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
	(envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 17:45:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@hub.freebsd.org>
To: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
Cc: Ruslan Ermilov <ru@ucb.crimea.ua>,
	Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NetWare client in -current
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909102036590.4890-100000@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Fri, 10 Sep 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote:

> > Okay. If that's the plan, then I don't have any objections.
> > 
> > I do hate the idea of having to reimplement samba because of the licensing
> > though - it already does quite a good job at SMB serving, it seems a waste
> > to duplicate the effort instead of just adding kernel support to the
> > existing code.
> 
> SAMBA implements an SMB/CIFS server.  We're talking about client support.

It also does that (smbclient), though not as an FS, and there's
sharity-light for a (n)fs interface.

Kris



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 19:49:53 1999
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 10 Sep 1999 22:49:49 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 22:49:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Baldwin <jobaldwi@vt.edu>
Subject: RE: X mailers (was Re: ANNOUNCE: Linux ABI/SDK standards for Ope
In-reply-to: <19990909120801.A49847@gurney.reilly.home>
To: Andrew Reilly <areilly@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Message-id: <0FHV001DFJV1MP@gkar.cc.vt.edu>
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On 09-Sep-99 Andrew Reilly wrote:
> XFMail isn't acceptable, because I've got 130M of mbox mail
> boxes in a deep directory hierarchy, and I'd like to keep them
> that way.  The last time I looked at XFMail it insisted on an
> un-nested mh-directory style of mailbox.  Is it still the case?

It supports both mbox and mh mailboxes now.

---

John Baldwin <jobaldwi@vt.edu> -- http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jbaldwin/
PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!"  -  http://www.freebsd.org


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri Sep 10 21:23:48 1999
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:22:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
Cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-Reply-To: <199909091735.KAA00703@dingo.cdrom.com>
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On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Mike Smith wrote:

> 
> > any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> > outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> > panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> > options:
> > 
> > 	Disabled
> > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> 
> You _should_ be able to change this.
> 
> > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> 
> You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> will come up...

It's not just a ground, the line that brings up the power is a momentary
switch, so a longish (about 1/2 second) pulse would do it.  That would
make it easier for you to set it up so you *could* turn it off if you
actually did want to.  Of course, if you did turn it off, and used this
pulse idea, the next power fluctuation would turn your PC back on ...
kinda inverted behavior!

> 
> -- 
> \\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
> \\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
> \\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
> 

---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@mat.net             | communications topic, C programming, Unix and
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | carpentry.  It's all in the design!
Greenbelt, MD 20770        | picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD/i386
(301) 220-2114             | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD/Alpha
---------------------------+-----------------------------------------------



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11  3:28: 1 1999
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Message-ID: <37DA10A7.2FD7F2A6@man-97-187.reshall.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 01:19:51 -0700
From: Tak Pui Lou <lou@man-97-187.reshall.berkeley.edu>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386)
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I would like to tell you that I recently try to get a FORTRAN program
compiled under FBSD. I finally get it working. But, I have to recompile
the libI77 with the -DNON_ANSI_RW_MODES removed from the CFLAG in
Makefile.

Otherwise, the file IO won't work correctly. So, I think I should report
this to you. I don't know who else I should contact. BTW, I am a big fan
of FBSD.

I heard about R3.3 will come out soon. Do you think that you will
consider changing this?

Regards,

TakPui Lou


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11  3:32:33 1999
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
	Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:22:53 -0400."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909110020500.28670-100000@picnic.mat.net> 
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 18:31:19 +0800
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Chuck Robey wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Sep 1999, Mike Smith wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> > > outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> > > panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> > > options:
> > > 
> > > 	Disabled
> > > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> > 
> > You _should_ be able to change this.
> > 
> > > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> > 
> > You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> > connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> > will come up...
> 
> It's not just a ground, the line that brings up the power is a momentary
> switch, so a longish (about 1/2 second) pulse would do it.  That would
> make it easier for you to set it up so you *could* turn it off if you
> actually did want to.  Of course, if you did turn it off, and used this
> pulse idea, the next power fluctuation would turn your PC back on ...
> kinda inverted behavior!

The power switch on the front panel is indeed a momentary switch, but
that is not what's connected to pin 14 (PS_ON in the connector specs).
The momenary switch is connected to an electronic device that is powered
by the continuous small transformer inside the ATX power supply and it
does an electronic "on/off" toggle and does pull PS_ON to ground for the
entire duration that the system is running.

On older motherboards, this device was pretty dumb and was little more than
an on/off toggle.  On newer motherboards, it's addressable on the SMB bus
(along with the SIMMS, the LM78/LM75/etc, the embedded LM75 in the newer
CPU, etc).  Anyway, the newer devices are programmable to do things like
the 4-second power off delay, auto-on with AC, maintain previous state when
AC restored, alarm clock time auto start, as well as the usual "turn off
now" command from the APM bios.

Anyway, I repeat, PS_ON (pin 14, usually numbered on the connector and
usually the only green wire) is grounded to make the ATX power start, and
the moment you disconnect it, the power supply shuts down.

BTW; it is possible some motherboard bios's could get upset at this
("hey, I said to turn off damn it!!"), but I'm yet to see one.

Cheers,
-Peter



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 10: 9:32 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Cc: tjm@codegen.com, jenings@lvld.hp.com, nicklin@softframe.com
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From: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
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My incomplete yet functional C++ editor library package is available for
anyone who wants to look and/or laugh at it:

    <http://codegen.com/freesoft.html>

BTW, I was mistaken earlier, and it doesn't yet support undo/redo of
buffer-marks but it was planned to be added - there's a currently unused
enum in a header reminding me of this :).

Here's part of the README.

-----
This is a small text-editor library I'd written quite some time ago.

There's no documentation other than the code, and it is as yet still
incomplete.  A few files are from an older version but are left here as
an outline for a future replacement.

The Makefile builds "tst" from tst2.cc and "tgrep" from tst3.cc which
exercise the editor code.  tst2.cc shows how to bind keys, and how
windows, displays, and buffers are created and connected.  tst3.cc shows
how to use the Rex class.  All tst*.cc were written to test the library
and are not intended to be full-blown editors or replacements for grep.

The Buffer class was designed to operate independently of Displays and
Windows, allowing C++ programs to easily edit and manipulate text.  Undo
currently handle text only, but is intended to someday undo/redo Marks.
Bufvars are just a class outline at the moment.  Multiple Windows can be
opened on the same buffer.  Terminals provide the lowest-level access to
termcap data as well as setting/clearing raw-mode.  The DLD stuff was to
support an old version of a dynamic linker before such things were
common.
-----

(I wonder what I've just let myself in for...)


	-- Parag Patel

	"Agony: Not all Pain is Gain" --Despair.COM


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 13:54:54 1999
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 17:45:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayne Cuddy <wayne@crb-web.com>
Reply-To: wayne@crb-web.com
To: FreeBSD Hackers List <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: how did I manage this? (fwd)
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I tried this on questions with no response and wanted give you guys a shot.

Thanks,
Wayne


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:42:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayne Cuddy <wayne@crb-web.com>
To: FreeBSD Questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject: how did I manage this?

I was hacking out a few install scripts for some software I wrote and I seem
to have created what seems like a hard-link to the / directory.  What did I do
and how do I remove the directory?

Thanks,
Wayne





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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 14: 4:29 1999
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 16:04:25 -0500
From: Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
Subject: Re: how did I manage this? (fwd)
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9909111745110.2711-100000@crb.crb-web.com>
To: Wayne Cuddy <wayne@crb-web.com>
Cc: FreeBSD Hackers List <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
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On Sat, Sep 11, 1999, Wayne Cuddy wrote:
> I tried this on questions with no response and wanted give you guys a shot.

ls -li /path/to/your/alleged/hardlink
ls -li /

   Are the inode numbers the same?

> Thanks,
> Wayne

-- 
|Chris Costello <chris@calldei.com>
|In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared minds.
`-------------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 16: 3:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:03:33 +0000
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To: Ben Jackson <ben@ben.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: upgrade issue from 2.2.x -> 3.2
References: <199909100500.WAA00530@pulsar.ben.com>
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Ben Jackson wrote:

> I just did that upgrade (been with freebsd since 1.1!) and everything
> seems pretty smooth.  I did a 2.2->3.1 upgrade on another machine so
> I'm probably glossing over some aout issues (mainly that you have to
> find them and move them into a separate directory).
>
> One thing that confused me for several days and I just figured out:
> sysctl moved from /usr/sbin to /sbin.  I have /usr/sbin in my path first,
> so I was getting to old one.  It almost works, but not quite.  It only
> displays about 15 `kern.' variables and then quits.
>
> Perhaps the upgrade option should at least warn of that possibility
> (maybe obvious, but somewhat unexpected) or even include a list of files
> that once existed in FreeBSD but no longer do (to facilitate removing
> them).  I'm thinking about digging out a 2.2.x install cd to build that
> list for myself.
>
> --Ben
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message

Whenever I do an upgrade, I always do an ls -alt on /modules, /sbin, /bin,
/usr/bin, /usr/sbin,
/usr/libexec (ignoring the a.out ld.so) and /usr/lib. The bottom of the list
in each case
(where bottom means a date significantly before the rest) needs to be
analyzed and
probably deleted. In the case of /usr/lib, old libraries probably can be
moved into
/usr/lib/compat (a.out ones go in /usr/lib/compat/a.out, of course). I
always catch
some stuff using this procedure. :-)

I also end up hand-merging the backup of /etc made by the upgrade,
/usr/src/etc
for the version in question, and /etc to try and make it look as much like a
fresh
install with customizations as I can. I doubt that any reasonable
programatic way
to do this can be done, apart from what the upgrade already does.

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--------------ms4BAAA505A08C629B4DA18D61--



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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 23:50: 8 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles554.castles.com [208.214.165.118])
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Message-Id: <199909120643.XAA00669@dingo.cdrom.com>
X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
Cc: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>,
	Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies... 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Sep 1999 00:22:53 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.4.10.9909110020500.28670-100000@picnic.mat.net> 
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Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:43:04 -0700
From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au>
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> > > any idea on how to force ATX power supplies to restart after a power
> > > outage without having someone press the 'power' button on the front
> > > panel ? All the motherboards i can find now have their bios with two
> > > options:
> > > 
> > > 	Disabled
> > > 		no automatic restart on power failure
> > 
> > You _should_ be able to change this.
> > 
> > > none of them is satisfactory especially for picoBSD things such as
> > > routers or firewalls where an UPS is overkill...
> > 
> > You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> > connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> > will come up...
> 
> It's not just a ground, the line that brings up the power is a momentary
> switch, so a longish (about 1/2 second) pulse would do it.  That would

The switch is not connected to the power enable line to the ATX power
supply; it's connected to logic on the system board which in turn (in
some cases) drives the PE line.  If you ground the power enable line for
1/2 a second, you will get (at most) 1/2 a second of power.

Sheesh.  You could at least speak from _experience_ here.

-- 
\\  The mind's the standard       \\  Mike Smith
\\  of the man.                   \\  msmith@freebsd.org
\\    -- Joseph Merrick           \\  msmith@cdrom.com




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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat Sep 11 23:58:47 1999
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
Message-Id: <199909120658.BAA43940@celery.dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: damn ATX power supplies...
To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 01:58:17 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net (Chuck Robey),
	mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith),
	luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199909120643.XAA00669@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Sep 11, 1999 11:43:04 PM
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> > > You can always hotwire the supply; go dig up a pinout for the ATX power 
> > > connector and you'll see that if you ground the power-on line the PSU 
> > > will come up...
> > 
> > It's not just a ground, the line that brings up the power is a momentary
> > switch, so a longish (about 1/2 second) pulse would do it.  That would
> 
> The switch is not connected to the power enable line to the ATX power
> supply; it's connected to logic on the system board which in turn (in
> some cases) drives the PE line.  If you ground the power enable line for
> 1/2 a second, you will get (at most) 1/2 a second of power.
> 
> Sheesh.  You could at least speak from _experience_ here.
> 

Yeah, you're supposed to tie PE low when you want power... However, in a
system I'm working with now, we've discovered that some inexpensive ATX
power supplies don't expect to have PE come up immediately when they're
given power. If you see the symptom that all the LED's on your system dim
about 1-2 seconds after you give the power supply AC for a second or so, you
need to make a small timer circuit to wait 5 seconds or so before turning
the PE line on.

For those that are interested, the issue is that the 5V standby power system
in the supply needs time to stabilize, and let some caps charge. +5SB is
also used for the power enable circuit. The AC gets turned on, and +5SB
comes up. This immediately activates the rest of the power supply, since
you've tied PE down. However, since +5SB's caps aren't charged, the huge
load from the hard drives and motherboard starting up drain things, and it
can't keep the voltage high enough for the PE circuit to remain on. Most
supplies aren't made like this, but a few do have this problem.

If someone needs a schematic, i could probably come up with a quick and
dirty 555 timer system.


Kevin


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