From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jun 18 7:20:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from southern-software.com (rosetta.thundercat.com [203.37.173.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5B1137B62F; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 07:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from info@southern-software.com) Received: from southern-software.com [198.142.196.124] by southern-software.com (SMTPD32-4.06) id A804C73A0392; Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:19:32 PDT From: info@southern-software.com Reply-To: info@southern-software.com To: info@southern-software.com Subject: Can you please assist ? Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:21:20 PDT Message-Id: <20000618141935.D5B1137B62F@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ___________________________________________________________ We are a software development company that specializes in security software. For some time now we have been working on developing a Client email program that contains security features never before available. In order for us to make this program the best that it can possibly be, we ask your assistance by taking a few minutes to answer these important questions for us. Which of the following functions do you consider to be important or essential for an email program? For questions 1-7, please rate 1-5. (1 being the least important and 5 being most important). A client email program should have: Question 1: The ability to prevent certain attachments that may possibly be carrying a virus. (This allows you to accept only safe attachments) Importance Rating______ Question 2: Automatic searching for file attachments that have been renamed or tampered with. (Virus senders can rename vbs files to txt files hoping you will open them) Importance Rating______ Question 3: The ability to limit the size of incoming email and attachments. (Reduce time wasted downloading large files, graphics, audio files, jokes, etc.) Importance Rating______ Question 4: The ability to select the size of outgoing emails and attachments. (Saves bandwidth as large files are roughly doubled when transferred by email). Importance Rating______ Question 5: An encrypted Address Book. (This will stop worm viruses sending copies of itself to your clients and/or friends). Importance Rating______ Question 6: The ability to restrict the number of attachments and size of attachments sent or received. And the ability to the restrict types of attachments received. (Gives control to employers and eliminate privacy issues arising). Importance Rating______ Question 7: A viewable log file containing information such as; email deleted without being opened, when email was downloaded, when email was read (opened), if email was forwarded or replied to etc. (Mail management and accountability at a glance) Importance Rating______ Question 8: Has your company been the victim of a computer virus attack? Yes/No ________ Question 9: If yes to question 8, approximately how many hours did it take to fix the problem? Hours ________ Question 10: If an email program was developed with the above security features, would you be interested in trialing a free demonstration version? Yes/No ________ Question 11: What percentage of email traffic is personal email? __________% We sincerely thank you for your time in answering these important questions for us. Sincere thanks, Graeme A. Ryan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 19 13:16:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C82837BD93 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 13:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28359 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA23916 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23911 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006192016.QAA23911@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:16:10 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent an earlier version of this to the list a couple weeks ago. A lot of people liked and someone (I forget who, I am sorry) suggested I offer it to ZDNet who ran the original. I offered it to them but never heard back. In the mean time, Terry Lambert explainedto me my premise was all wrong anyway. So I decided to let it go. But last night, ZDN got back to me telling me they liked it. I explained it needed reworking and they gave me a couple days (like, Tuesday afternoon) to fix it. So here is the revised version, please send me anything you think needs changing. Thanks, Jamie Kerberos and the GPL James Howard On Tuesday, June 6, Evan Leibovitch wrote \protect\url{http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html} about Microsoft's wrangling of the Kerberos protocol. Microsoft had taken the open source MIT software, made changes affecting compatibility, and released the new version without the source code. The Kerberos code is licensed under a license similar to both the BSD operating system and the X11 Windowing system. Leibovitch blames the license for allowing Microsoft to introduce proprietary extensions into the protocol and claims that if Kerberos had been licensed under the Free Software Foundation's General Public License (GPL) Microsoft would have been unable to embrace and extend the Kerberos standard. However, Leibovitch does not get it. This was the best possible outcome and it was forced by the liberal license. There are four possible paths this project could have taken: * First, Microsoft could have ignored Kerberos completely and left the broader community with an entirely new standard with zero support from other software in the community. * Second, the Kerberos code could have been released under the GPL. If this had happened, the Microsoft would have surely refused to use the code to prevent having to reveal proprietary source. Microsoft would have then reimplemented the code and still modified the protocol. Had Microsoft been forced to reimplement the code, it would surely contain an unknown number of bugs and compatibility issues. * Third, the Kerberos code could have been released under a Berkeley-style license. Microsoft could have then taken the code and distributed a modified version and maintained some level of compatibility with existing implementations and installations of Kerberos. * Finally, the Kerberos code could have been released under a Berkeley-style license and Microsoft could have reimplemented it. This is, in fact, what happened. Why did Microsoft choose not to use existing code? I cannot say. The license would have allowed them completely use the existing code without legal ramifications. However, despite legal availability of code, it was not used and this allows Microsoft to open the flood gates. Since they wrote their own code, they are not, nor ever were, bound to the M.I.T. license. This means that even if the code had been released under the GPL, Microsoft could have released a new version with proprietary extensions without violating the M.I.T. license or running afoul of the law. So we are now left with Leibovitch's articlewhich is clearly designed only to attack BSD systems. Leibovitch states that Microsoft's treatment of Kerberos is an ``example of real harm to the frees software community that occurred because a BSD license was used.'' But as we have already seen, the GPL could have not have prevented it. In fact, the BSD license is responsible for more good in the industry than the GPL could ever hope for. For instance, TCP/IP's widespread acceptance stems directly from the fact the first versions were released under such liberal terms. Apache's enormous popularity, beating all other web servers combined, is due directly to the liberal license which is based on a BSD license. The X Windows System's widespread availability and interoperability is also based on it's liberal licensing and the fact any vendor who wished to include the tool could with not hassel. The BSD license is clearly superior and offers more options for compatibility and interoperability because it poses no risk to business and offers independent developers incentive for using the code as well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 19 15: 3:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8A837B6BA for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA56471; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:03:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:03:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) In-Reply-To: <200006192016.QAA23911@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, James Howard wrote: > So here is the revised version, please send me anything you think > needs changing. > * Second, the Kerberos code could have been released under the GPL. > If this had happened, the Microsoft would have surely refused to then > Why did Microsoft choose not to use existing code? I cannot say. The > license would have allowed them completely use the existing code without license allows them to use the existing code as is without > However, despite legal availability of code, it was not used and this the code, > So we are now left with Leibovitch's articlewhich is clearly designed article which > of Kerberos is an ``example of real harm to the frees software free software > which is based on a BSD license. The X Windows System's widespread > availability and interoperability is also based on it's liberal its Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 19 15:24:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BA037B653 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14574; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14792; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14787; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006192224.SAA14787@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Brett Taylor Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:03:01 EDT." Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:24:15 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Brett Taylor writes: > On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, James Howard wrote: > > > So here is the revised version, please send me anything you think > > needs changing. > > > * Second, the Kerberos code could have been released under the GPL. > > If this had happened, the Microsoft would have surely refused to > > then All fixed, thanks :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 19 15:27:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po3.wam.umd.edu (po3.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ADA537B759 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 15:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po3.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02832; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15023; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15018; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006192226.SAA15018@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:11:54 BST." <20000619231154.A233@parish> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:26:53 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000619231154.A233@parish>, Mark Ovens writes: > Good article. I don't want to sound like I'm nit-picking, but I > spotted a few typos and since this is going for publication I figure > it's important: Why do you think I send them here? You guys are good at catching silly mistakes. I may started sending my English assignments here...come to think of it, I have... Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 19 20:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E54637B5DC for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 17773 invoked from network); 20 Jun 2000 03:38:23 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 20 Jun 2000 03:38:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 15973 invoked by uid 211); 20 Jun 2000 03:38:20 -0000 Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 09:08:20 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) Message-ID: <20000620090820.A15934@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200006192016.QAA23911@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006192016.QAA23911@rac4.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 04:16:10PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha X-Question: Do you enjoy reading pointless headers? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > availability and interoperability is also based on it's liberal licensing > and the fact any vendor who wished to include the tool could with > not hassel. "without hassle"? Other things (eg "it's" above) seem to have been pointed out already. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 0: 0:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nhj.nlc.net.au (nhj.nlc.net.au [203.24.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B55F337BCEC for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@nlc.net.au) Received: (qmail 2760 invoked from network); 21 Jun 2000 17:00:39 +1000 Received: from nhj.nlc.net.au (HELO vecomm3) (203.24.133.1) by nhj.nlc.net.au with SMTP; 21 Jun 2000 17:00:39 +1000 Message-ID: <013601bfdb4e$6a20a6c0$4ab511cb@vecommerce.com.au> From: "John Saunders" To: Subject: Ripped off by SETI@HOME Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:00:40 +1000 Organization: NORTHLINK COMMUNICATIONS PTY LTD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just took at look at the SETI@HOME results for Operating Systems. The highest FreeBSD entry is number 22 which is for FreeBSD 3.2 with 237731 packets. However I realised that if you add up all of the different versions of FreeBSD you get a result of 791878 packets which would put us in 15th position. The Windows people have it over us because they haven't had an operating system update in a few years. The Linux crowd has got wise and called their version "linux-gnu", note the absence of a version number. What we need to do is to petition SETI to use "freebsd-elf" or "freebsd-aout". Otherwise we will be starting from 0 packets when the next SETI client comes out compiled for version 3.4. Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders - mailto:john@nlc.net.au (EMail) | ,--_|\ | - http://www.nlc.net.au/ (WWW) | / Oz \ | - 1800-445-100 or 0418-223-814 (Phone) | \_,--\_/ | NORTHLINK COMMUNICATIONS P/L - Supplying a professional, | v | and above all friendly, internet connection service. | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 7:25:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5926E37B6BB for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 134lRV-000OhF-00; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:25:25 +0200 Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:25:25 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD Message-ID: <20000621162525.A94849@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184819.04b11b80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184819.04b11b80@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 06:48:29PM -0600 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-06-06 (18:48), Brett Glass wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html While I'll refrain from calling it "Anti-BSD FUD", the misinformed Mr. Leibovitch also had: http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2587033,00.html I'm pretty sure I, and at least Brett Glass, had comments in this article, but they don't seem to be there. If anyone remembers the alternate article I responded to, or can confirm that my reponse to this article, I'd appreciate it (mostly for my sanity). Further, Mr. Leibovitch has recently continued his "attack" on the BSD license in: http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2591417,00.html Personally, I just don't think he's taken the time to read the talkbacks. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 7:30:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inu.net (downtown.inu.net [208.129.164.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C41837B718 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bob@inu.net) Received: from inu.net [208.129.164.18] by mail.inu.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A19610BA0212; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:30:46 -0500 Message-ID: <3950D194.EED31E80@inu.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:30:44 -0500 From: Bob Martin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anti-BSD FUD References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000606184819.04b11b80@localhost> <20000621162525.A94849@mithrandr.moria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > On Tue 2000-06-06 (18:48), Brett Glass wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2582875,00.html > > While I'll refrain from calling it "Anti-BSD FUD", the misinformed Mr. > Leibovitch also had: > > http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2587033,00.html > > I'm pretty sure I, and at least Brett Glass, had comments in this > article, but they don't seem to be there. If anyone remembers the > alternate article I responded to, or can confirm that my reponse to this > article, I'd appreciate it (mostly for my sanity).  Perhaps they don't appreciate constructive feed back, and deleted the messages, but I do distictly recall seeing your message there.  > Further, Mr. Leibovitch has recently continued his "attack" on the BSD > license in: > > http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2591417,00.html > > Personally, I just don't think he's taken the time to read the > talkbacks. Or he doesn't "get it". I'm hoping it's the former. He will be absolutely agast if he reads the SCO license for ancient code. Bob Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 12:57:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40EE37B695 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08406 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14739 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14734 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:57:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006211957.PAA14734@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Into the Lion's Den... Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:57:35 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 15:15:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B568837B750 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p10-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.75]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id HAA10504; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:15:35 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:16:27 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... References: <200006211957.PAA14734@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Howard wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html WAY to go! -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org Windows works, for sufficently small values of "works". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 15:37:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A1837B69B for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (root@rac10.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.150]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15253; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28068; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac10.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac10.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28063; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006212237.SAA28063@rac10.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac10.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Jun 2000 07:16:27 +0900." <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:37:07 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com>, "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > James Howard wrote: > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > WAY to go! I dunno, I am already taking a bashing on this one. Most of it isn't even germane to the discussion. ;( Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 19:30:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CFB37B5A2 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm003-024.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.120]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21962; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:30:09 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AD67188D; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:28:31 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... Message-ID: <20000621222831.F47446@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <200006211957.PAA14734@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200006211957.PAA14734@rac10.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:57:35PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:57:35PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html Great article. My favorite part was at the end: James Howard is a Unix administrator for an Internet service provider in Bethesda, Maryland. James was one of the first people Bill Gates ever screwed during his rise to the captaincy of the computer industry. Revenge has since been the sole purpose of pudgy, not-so-little Jamie's life. And perusing, promoting and propagating open-source Unix-based operating systems have become James' obsession. ames would like to thank Chris Coleman, Terry Lambert, Chien Nguyen, Mark Ovens, Rahul Siddharthan, and Brett Taylor for their assistance. Hehehehehe.... :) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 19:41: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 46B7137B857 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 25843 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 02:40:49 -0000 Received: from theory2.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.21) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 02:40:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 1776 invoked by uid 211); 22 Jun 2000 02:40:47 -0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:10:47 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... Message-ID: <20000622081047.C1724@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com> <200006212237.SAA28063@rac10.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006212237.SAA28063@rac10.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 06:37:07PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.5-15 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Howard said on Jun 21, 2000 at 18:37:07: > In message <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com>, "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > > James Howard wrote: > > > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > > > WAY to go! > > I dunno, I am already taking a bashing on this one. Most of it isn't even > germane to the discussion. ;( They seem to be bashing you and not the license... R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 19:46: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from majordomo2.umd.edu (majordomo2.umd.edu [128.8.10.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D9037C135 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by majordomo2.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18956; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA12895; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12890; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006220245.WAA12890@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Will Andrews Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:28:31 EDT." <20000621222831.F47446@argon.gryphonsoft.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:42 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000621222831.F47446@argon.gryphonsoft.com>, Will Andrews writes: > On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:57:35PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > Great article. My favorite part was at the end: That came about as a joke (obviously). On a semi-private bbs (www.cyberspace.org) I frequent, I posted a message saying "write my bio" and said the best one which ZDNet let me post would win. The problem with most of them is that I kept getting 3-4 paragraph replies. I really only needed 3-4 sentences. If that. I clipped these last few sentences from someone's suggestion. J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 19:59: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from po4.wam.umd.edu (po4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A766837B6B8 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:59:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (root@rac4.wam.umd.edu [128.8.10.144]) by po4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA23774; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA13346; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rac4.wam.umd.edu (howardjp@localhost) by rac4.wam.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13341; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006220258.WAA13341@rac4.wam.umd.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: rac4.wam.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:10:47 +0530." <20000622081047.C1724@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:58:39 -0400 From: James Howard Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000622081047.C1724@physics.iisc.ernet.in>, Rahul Siddharthan writ es: > They seem to be bashing you and not the license... That's what I noticed too. GPL-bigots (well, all license bigots) tend to go for personal attacks. They are easier. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 21 20: 3:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4EC3D37B857 for ; Wed, 21 Jun 2000 20:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 25862 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2000 03:03:19 -0000 Received: from theory6.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.126) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 22 Jun 2000 03:03:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 24021 invoked by uid 211); 22 Jun 2000 03:03:17 -0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:33:17 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: James Howard Cc: Will Andrews , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... Message-ID: <20000622083316.A23981@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: James Howard , Will Andrews , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000621222831.F47446@argon.gryphonsoft.com> <200006220245.WAA12890@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006220245.WAA12890@rac4.wam.umd.edu>; from howardjp@wam.umd.edu on Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 10:45:42PM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.15pre4 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Howard said on Jun 21, 2000 at 22:45:42: > In message <20000621222831.F47446@argon.gryphonsoft.com>, Will Andrews writes: > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 03:57:35PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > > > Great article. My favorite part was at the end: > > That came about as a joke (obviously). On a semi-private bbs > (www.cyberspace.org) I frequent, I posted a message saying "write my > bio" and said the best one which ZDNet let me post would win. The problem > with most of them is that I kept getting 3-4 paragraph replies. I really > only needed 3-4 sentences. If that. I clipped these last few sentences > from someone's suggestion. It sounds like Brett Glass's theme song about Stallman. ("He got screwed by his AI lab friends, and revenge has since been the sole purpose of his existence...") To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 11: 5: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6556D37BCA8 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA25942; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:04:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEzaqWW; Thu Jun 22 11:02:13 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06319; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:02:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006221802.LAA06319@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... To: howardjp@wam.umd.edu (James Howard) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:02:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200006212237.SAA28063@rac10.wam.umd.edu> from "James Howard" at Jun 21, 2000 06:37:07 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com>, "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > > James Howard wrote: > > > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > > > WAY to go! > > I dunno, I am already taking a bashing on this one. Most of it isn't even > germane to the discussion. ;( I posted a "talkback" that I should be blamed if the Microsoft reimplementation cite is incorrect. I read it as part of a Microsoft response to the complaints by Jeremy Allison and the Kerberos architect. It's possible that they were lying, but the legal climate at the time argues that they were not. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 12:53:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from never.tellme.com (never.tellme.com [209.157.156.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB6437B67D for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@tellme.com) Received: by never.tellme.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5656E71643; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:53:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:53:14 -0700 From: Danny Howard To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Using FreeBSD to Sell Sun Hardware Message-ID: <20000622125314.A21088@never.tellme.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey! Recently, I asked a Netscape employee if Directory Server might be ported to FreeBSD any time soon. He said it was less likely because of the Sun alliance. I followed up with an argument that by not supporting FreeBSD, they were all the less likely to sell Sun hardware in the end. How does my argument sound? Critiques? Suggestions? Thanks, -danny ----- Forwarded message from Danny Howard ----- On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:19:17AM -0700, *********** wrote: > dannyman wrote: [...] > > So, are you guys ever going to port your server products to FreeBSD? > > Probably less likely now (with the Sun/Netscape Alliance). Of course, if > the market for FreeBSD products really took off... It seems like you have a chicken and an egg. On the one hand, you want Directory Server to force more Sparc sales. On the other hand, you want to sell Directory Server as widely as possible. So, a customer wants to evaluate different directory servers, but they don't have spare Sparc hardware laying around, they aren't going to bother with NT, and they really don't feel like provisioning a Linux box because they remember last time they went through all the trouble to do so for a Netscape Server product it just wouldn't install anyway because of some inconsistency with the installed JDK. On the other hand, OpenLDAP is ready to go in about five minutes from the FreeBSD ports collection. So, the first thing I'll eval is OpenLDAP, and given the bar to evaluating NDS, if OpenLDAP does a decent job of satisfying my requirements, I'm more likely to deploy that, and I'm more likely to stick with inexpensive x86 hardware, because that's what I evaled on, and my LDAP vendor isn't extolling the virtues of rolling out a deployment on Sun hardware. Though I'm not sure you're the best person to toss my arguments at? (Maybe you can tell me who I should throw my argument at?) Thank you for your time. -danny ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 14:23:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1.gte.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3622B37B651 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net (evrtwa1-ar4-146-005.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.146.5]) by smtppop1.gte.net with ESMTP ; id QAA5438786 Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:21:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:24:08 -0700 (PDT) From: The Clark Family X-Sender: res03db2@orthanc.dsl.gtei.net To: Danny Howard Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using FreeBSD to Sell Sun Hardware In-Reply-To: <20000622125314.A21088@never.tellme.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sun has stayed suprisingly far away from FreeBSD. Which is weird, considering their early SunOS days. Apple is doing things with BSD. Intel sells (some) BSD based stuff. CISCO has some BSD skeletons in their closet. MS uses BSD. Who does that leave? IBM? Compaq? HP? [RC] On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Danny Howard wrote: > Hey! > > Recently, I asked a Netscape employee if Directory Server might be ported to > FreeBSD any time soon. He said it was less likely because of the Sun > alliance. I followed up with an argument that by not supporting FreeBSD, they > were all the less likely to sell Sun hardware in the end. How does my > argument sound? Critiques? Suggestions? > > Thanks, > -danny > > ----- Forwarded message from Danny Howard ----- > > On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:19:17AM -0700, *********** wrote: > > dannyman wrote: > [...] > > > So, are you guys ever going to port your server products to FreeBSD? > > > > Probably less likely now (with the Sun/Netscape Alliance). Of course, if > > the market for FreeBSD products really took off... > > It seems like you have a chicken and an egg. > > On the one hand, you want Directory Server to force more Sparc sales. > On the other hand, you want to sell Directory Server as widely as possible. > > So, a customer wants to evaluate different directory servers, but they don't > have spare Sparc hardware laying around, they aren't going to bother with NT, > and they really don't feel like provisioning a Linux box because they remember > last time they went through all the trouble to do so for a Netscape Server > product it just wouldn't install anyway because of some inconsistency with the > installed JDK. > > On the other hand, OpenLDAP is ready to go in about five minutes from the > FreeBSD ports collection. > > So, the first thing I'll eval is OpenLDAP, and given the bar to evaluating > NDS, if OpenLDAP does a decent job of satisfying my requirements, I'm more > likely to deploy that, and I'm more likely to stick with inexpensive x86 > hardware, because that's what I evaled on, and my LDAP vendor isn't extolling > the virtues of rolling out a deployment on Sun hardware. > > Though I'm not sure you're the best person to toss my arguments at? (Maybe > you can tell me who I should throw my argument at?) > > Thank you for your time. > -danny > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 14:24:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17C037B651 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p43-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.44]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id GAA19207; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:23:13 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <395283F3.A21E4501@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 06:24:03 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: James Howard , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Into the Lion's Den... References: <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com> <200006212237.SAA28063@rac10.wam.umd.edu> <20000622081047.C1724@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > James Howard said on Jun 21, 2000 at 18:37:07: > > In message <39513EBB.1B3D3FEC@newsguy.com>, "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > > > James Howard wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2591507,00.html > > > > > > WAY to go! > > > > I dunno, I am already taking a bashing on this one. Most of it isn't even > > germane to the discussion. ;( > > They seem to be bashing you and not the license... All I have read can be reduced to "I don't like someone rebutting that article", even those who state to the contrary. One guy accused you of personal attacks just because you said the author engaged in those, even though that's the only thing in the whole article that can be construed as personal (besides being subjective, I think by and large the BSD camp took that first article as a personal attack -- and, frankly, it could not be construed in another way, IMHO). Other guy, still upset at MS loss in court, dismissed all your points as "opinion", and, , said there is no place in ZDNet for such! Well, as if ZDNet had anything else, but the press *is* a place for opinions. Frankly, you should worry if someone makes a _good_ case against your article, instead of simply disliking it's existance (for reasons they prefer to keep secret). -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org Windows works, for sufficently small values of "works". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 14:50:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CBA37BEDB for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:50:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 261EBE; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A11549A10; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:50:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: The Clark Family Cc: Danny Howard , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using FreeBSD to Sell Sun Hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Compaq has a FreeBSD Testdrive program Chris Coleman Daemon News http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, The Clark Family wrote: > > Sun has stayed suprisingly far away from FreeBSD. Which is weird, > considering their early SunOS days. > > Apple is doing things with BSD. > > Intel sells (some) BSD based stuff. > > CISCO has some BSD skeletons in their closet. > > MS uses BSD. > > Who does that leave? IBM? Compaq? HP? > > [RC] > > On Thu, 22 Jun 2000, Danny Howard wrote: > > > Hey! > > > > Recently, I asked a Netscape employee if Directory Server might be ported to > > FreeBSD any time soon. He said it was less likely because of the Sun > > alliance. I followed up with an argument that by not supporting FreeBSD, they > > were all the less likely to sell Sun hardware in the end. How does my > > argument sound? Critiques? Suggestions? > > > > Thanks, > > -danny > > > > ----- Forwarded message from Danny Howard ----- > > > > On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 09:19:17AM -0700, *********** wrote: > > > dannyman wrote: > > [...] > > > > So, are you guys ever going to port your server products to FreeBSD? > > > > > > Probably less likely now (with the Sun/Netscape Alliance). Of course, if > > > the market for FreeBSD products really took off... > > > > It seems like you have a chicken and an egg. > > > > On the one hand, you want Directory Server to force more Sparc sales. > > On the other hand, you want to sell Directory Server as widely as possible. > > > > So, a customer wants to evaluate different directory servers, but they don't > > have spare Sparc hardware laying around, they aren't going to bother with NT, > > and they really don't feel like provisioning a Linux box because they remember > > last time they went through all the trouble to do so for a Netscape Server > > product it just wouldn't install anyway because of some inconsistency with the > > installed JDK. > > > > On the other hand, OpenLDAP is ready to go in about five minutes from the > > FreeBSD ports collection. > > > > So, the first thing I'll eval is OpenLDAP, and given the bar to evaluating > > NDS, if OpenLDAP does a decent job of satisfying my requirements, I'm more > > likely to deploy that, and I'm more likely to stick with inexpensive x86 > > hardware, because that's what I evaled on, and my LDAP vendor isn't extolling > > the virtues of rolling out a deployment on Sun hardware. > > > > Though I'm not sure you're the best person to toss my arguments at? (Maybe > > you can tell me who I should throw my argument at?) > > > > Thank you for your time. > > -danny > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 22 19:38:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92FF37B523 for ; Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p36-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.37]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id LAA23469; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:38:31 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3952CA21.5C234F5D@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:23:29 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Response to Fatal Flaw in BSD (part 2) References: <200006192016.QAA23911@rac4.wam.umd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wish I had been reading my mail... Anyway, just to point out in hindsight some flaws... James Howard wrote: > > I sent an earlier version of this to the list a couple weeks > ago. A lot of people liked and someone (I forget who, I am > sorry) suggested I offer it to ZDNet who ran the original. I offered it Me. :-) I have OSOpinion in very low regard. > Leibovitch blames the license for allowing Microsoft to introduce proprietary > extensions into the protocol and claims that if Kerberos had been > licensed under the Free Software Foundation's General Public License > (GPL) Microsoft would have been unable to embrace and extend the Kerberos > standard. However, Leibovitch does not get it. This was the best possible > outcome and it was forced by the liberal license. It wasn't the best outcome. It *would have been* the best outcome if MS had done that. And, obviously, the license didn't "force" anything. That's the whole point of the BSD license, anyway. :-) GPL forces things, BSDL doesn't. > There are four possible paths this project could have taken: > > * First, Microsoft could have ignored Kerberos completely and left > the broader community with an entirely new standard with zero support > from other software in the community. > > * Second, the Kerberos code could have been released under the GPL. > If this had happened, the Microsoft would have surely refused to > use the code to prevent having to reveal proprietary source. Microsoft > would have then reimplemented the code and still modified the protocol. > Had Microsoft been forced to reimplement the code, it would surely > contain an unknown number of bugs and compatibility issues. These lines ought to have been removed from here, since Microsoft did reimplement the code, by Terry's account. > * Third, the Kerberos code could have been released under a Berkeley-style > license. Microsoft could have then taken the code and distributed > a modified version and maintained some level of compatibility with > existing implementations and installations of Kerberos. Instead, you could have added here that this would result in an implementation which is widely used and open for all to see, thus being relatively bug-free, and avoid the 65.000 problems that seems to come with new versions of software, and ensure that the protocol is correctly implemented, avoiding subtle protocol interaction problems (protocol design/implementation is a very treacherous (sp?) subject). > * Finally, the Kerberos code could have been released under a Berkeley-style > license and Microsoft could have reimplemented it. This is, in fact, > what happened. This is silly. You could have added dozens of cases of "Kerberos could have been released under a XYZZY-style license and Microsoft could have reimplemented it". You should have reworked the GPL paragraph to just point out that Microsoft would be unwilling to use that code, and add a final paragraph saying Microsoft decided to reimplement the code, with all the problems that result from that. And this whole section should have been rewritten to show that MS did not do what Leibovich said they did, and if they HAD done it, we would have been better off. And, above all, that GPL vs BSD has nothing to do with it. > The BSD license is clearly superior and offers more options for compatibility > and interoperability because it poses no risk to business and offers > independent developers incentive for using the code as well. The statement that BSD license is clearly superior is always dangerous. It isn't clearly superior to the goals of FSF. You could have said BSD license is superior for reference implementations, as it increases the chance of the reference implementation being actually used (and, as a consequence, the chance of the protocol itself actually being adopted). I'm sorry I couldn't get to you in time, I just post the above as a feedback, so you can improve future articles. Still, I think the rebuttal was very good, and the lack of attacks on the rebuttal itself is a clear proof of that. BTW, the guy defending Microsoft's implementation of Kerberos was hillarious. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org Windows works, for sufficently small values of "works". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 8:27:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419CF37B8C1; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Joe.Warner@smed.com) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFCB16195; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05134; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:27:22 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:27:13 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256907.0054D917 ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:26:45 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <85256907.0054D783.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 09:28:12 -0600 Subject: Some questions re: FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I hope I'm sending this to the correct mailing lists. Please forgive me if I am not. I have a couple of questions regarding FreeBSD that I hope someone will help me address. After recently installing FreeBSD on a Compaq Deskpro 2000 at work and setting it up with various applications and servers, Apache and FTP to name a couple, I've had the opportunity to demonstrate to others that I work with a small portion of the vast amount of things this powerful operating system can do. The response has been tremendous and also, a little overwhelming. Most of my co-workers think it's awesome. They couldn't believe all the functionality built into FreeBSD and the huge number of applications that come with the CD ROM set. They also were surprised to learn that you can download the OS and most of the applications for free. Here's where I'm having some trouble --- Some of the most frequent questions I'm getting are: "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get everything for free, why isn't everybody using it?" Another one is: "This is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the people that produce it make any money?" or.."How can they produce such an excellent product and support it without any profits?" I'm having trouble addressing these questions because my understanding of the current Open Source Movement is a bit limited and the topic seems fairly complex to me. I would be so grateful if someone could help me provide some good answers to these questions or point me to a related site? Thanks. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 10: 6: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D292E37B7B0 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00922; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:04:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_5aGUb; Fri Jun 23 10:04:39 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25097; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:05:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200006231705.KAA25097@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Using FreeBSD to Sell Sun Hardware To: res03db2@gte.net (The Clark Family) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:05:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dannyman@tellme.com (Danny Howard), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Clark Family" at Jun 22, 2000 02:24:08 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Recently, I asked a Netscape employee if Directory Server might > > be ported to FreeBSD any time soon. He said it was less likely > > because of the Sun alliance. I followed up with an argument > > that by not supporting FreeBSD, they were all the less likely to > > sell Sun hardware in the end. How does my argument sound? > > Critiques? Suggestions? > > Sun has stayed suprisingly far away from FreeBSD. Which is weird, > considering their early SunOS days. > > Apple is doing things with BSD. > > Intel sells (some) BSD based stuff. > > CISCO has some BSD skeletons in their closet. > > MS uses BSD. > > Who does that leave? IBM? Compaq? HP? IBM uses FreeBSD for the InterJet (IBM acquired Whistle), and for some bids into school districts into Taiwan, running on Netfinity. Compaq has provided significant support for FreeBSD/Alpha, and for FreeBSD/SMP (Intel and Alpha). HP provides much of the equipment for the University of Utah work, which includes MACH, OSKit, and BSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 10:11:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from never.tellme.com (never.tellme.com [209.157.156.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6F637B5C0 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@tellme.com) Received: by never.tellme.com (Postfix, from userid 501) id 3007C71643; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:11:22 -0700 From: Danny Howard To: Terry Lambert Cc: The Clark Family , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using FreeBSD to Sell Sun Hardware Message-ID: <20000623101122.L32144@never.tellme.com> References: <200006231705.KAA25097@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200006231705.KAA25097@usr01.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 05:05:22PM +0000 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 23, 2000 at 05:05:22PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > IBM uses FreeBSD for the InterJet (IBM acquired Whistle), and for > some bids into school districts into Taiwan, running on Netfinity. > > Compaq has provided significant support for FreeBSD/Alpha, and for > FreeBSD/SMP (Intel and Alpha). > > HP provides much of the equipment for the University of Utah work, > which includes MACH, OSKit, and BSD. It is like we're geurillas in the OS wars, sneaking up on the enemy, with funding from the various "great powers" who each have their own agendas, and see our activities as being potentially quite useful. :) Hrmmm, should eat some breakfast. -d To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 10:52:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7A737C3CB; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.69.47]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA3D14; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:53:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3953A34F.F9ED6D89@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:50:07 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some questions re: FreeBSD References: <85256907.0054D783.00@Deimos.smed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get > everything for free, why isn't everybody using it?" Probably the biggest reason is that it's a consumer OS. It's not preloaded, there's aren't any 'FreeBSD For Dummies' books, all the shrink-wrap titles on the store shelves say "Windows" or "Mac", and until very recently, there was no support. In the enterprise, a consumer OS is a de-facto requirement. The CEO and CTO have Windows or Mac at home, and that's what they want at work. Plus, the lack of support is a major drawback. For example, gcc is free, yet my work continues to pay out handsomely for the cygnus packaging because we get support. And finally, FreeBSD (and other unices) are not easy. It requires computer literacy and willingness to learn more. A Unix requires administration, and a lot of users don't want that. > Another one is: "This > is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the people > that produce it make any money?" or.."How can they produce such an > excellent product and support it without any profits?" The people who originally produced BSD were academics. They had monetary grants to develop it. Today you find a mix of hobbyists, adademics, and professionals working on it for free. The hobbyists work on it at their spare time for enjoyment. Academics work on it at part of their studies, or as proofs of concept. Professionals work on it to improve the products they are using. A lot of FreeBSD contributors are a mix of all three. But a lack of profits only goes so far and for so fast. The biggest thing that ever happened to Linux were the commercial distributors. I suspect that the BSDi/WalnutCreek merger may be one the biggest things for FreeBSD. The question you didn't ask was "Why are they giving it away instead of selling it?". I can't answer for any of the FreeBSD developers, but for my own software, my answer would be: "I want people to use it 'cause I had so much fun writing it." David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 10:56: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from spectre.honk.org (cr876208-a.flfrd1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.175.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAD5E37B64B; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:55:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpoulin@honk.org) Received: from spectre.honk.org (mpoulin@spectre.honk.org [24.42.175.137]) by spectre.honk.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA13330; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:55:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:55:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Poulin To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some questions re: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <85256907.0054D783.00@Deimos.smed.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG These are some tough ones to answer. > "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get everything for free, why > isn't everybody using it? I suppose there are a number of reasons: - lack of knowledge on the part of the user - market saturation / domination by other commercial OSes - lack of marketing / advertising for FreeBSD - don't want to learn something new The main thing is that people don't usually choose something because it's the *best*, they choose it for other, less easily definable reasons. People are generally not very wise when they make decisions about their computers. There is still this attitude of "if it's free, it can't be very good" and people shell out hundreds or thousands of dollars for something that isn't half the product that FreeBSD is, simply because it "comes with the computer" or their neighbour uses it, or they saw a really cool ad for it on T.V. > "This is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the > people that produce it make any money?" From what I understand, they don't. At least not much - there's some money to be earned from selling the CD's, and Greg Lehey's book must generate some dollars, and there are some people who donate (financially) to the project: (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/donors.html) Mostly, the project exists through the efforts of volunteers. (http://www.freebsd.org/releases/2.0/credits.html) > How can they produce such an excellent product and support it without > any profits?" I believe that one of the strengths of the free software concept is that it is done without the motivation of profit. The people who contribute to FreeBSD do so because they *want* to, and their goal is to produce a quality, robust operating system. If the goal was to deliver a product on a certain date set by some abstract marketing deadline, then the quality would slip. Also, the amount of money spent to develop a product must be less than the amount of revenue the product will generate, otherwise there is no profit. This means that a software company might decide to cut costs by limiting the number of programmers on a given project, and demand more work from them. The open source concept means that anyone can contribute; this essentially means unlimited resources. The best way to explain it to people is to demonstrate by example. Ask them if they've heard of Yahoo, or even better, Microsoft's Hotmail. That's the best way to show people that even though it's free, it really does work, and some very big companies agree. - M - On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > > > I hope I'm sending this to the correct mailing lists. Please forgive me if > I am not. I have a couple of questions regarding FreeBSD that I hope > someone will help me address. > After recently installing FreeBSD on a Compaq Deskpro 2000 at work and > setting it up with various applications and servers, Apache and FTP to name > a couple, I've had the opportunity to demonstrate to others that I work > with a small portion of the vast amount of things this powerful operating > system can do. The response has been tremendous and also, a little > overwhelming. Most of my co-workers think it's awesome. They couldn't > believe all the functionality built into FreeBSD and the huge number of > applications that come with the CD ROM set. They also were surprised to > learn that you can download the OS and most of the applications for free. > Here's where I'm having some trouble --- Some of the most frequent > questions I'm getting are: "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get > everything for free, why isn't everybody using it?" Another one is: "This > is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the people > that produce it make any money?" or.."How can they produce such an > excellent product and support it without any profits?" I'm having trouble > addressing these questions because my understanding of the current Open > Source Movement is a bit limited and the topic seems fairly complex to me. > I would be so grateful if someone could help me provide some good answers > to these questions or point me to a related site? > > Thanks. > > Joe > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 11:42:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4781737C3CB; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Joe.Warner@smed.com) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541BC161F1; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26044; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:42:29 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:42:21 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256907.0066B64C ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:41:53 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Message-Id: <85256907.0066B5C8.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:43:26 -0600 Subject: Thanks in advance!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Since sending the email below out this morning, I've already gotten so many excellent responses that I'm unable to respond to all of you individually. I'm sure that I'm going to receive quite a few more before I make it home tonight. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you all in advance for the quick responses and huge amount of excellent information you all have supplied me with. You've suceeded in helping me and my co-workers better understand FreeBSD and the philosophy behind the Open Source Movement. This also puts me in a better position in my quest of introducing new, different and innovative technology to my co-workers, friends and the company I work for. You all are great!! 8^} Thanks again! Joe |--------+-----------------------> | | Joe.Warner@sm| | | ed.com | | | | | | 06/23/00 | | | 09:28 AM | | | | |--------+-----------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, | | freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG | | cc: (bcc: Joe Warner/SMS) | | Subject: Some questions re: FreeBSD | >--------------------------------------------------------| I hope I'm sending this to the correct mailing lists. Please forgive me if I am not. I have a couple of questions regarding FreeBSD that I hope someone will help me address. After recently installing FreeBSD on a Compaq Deskpro 2000 at work and setting it up with various applications and servers, Apache and FTP to name a couple, I've had the opportunity to demonstrate to others that I work with a small portion of the vast amount of things this powerful operating system can do. The response has been tremendous and also, a little overwhelming. Most of my co-workers think it's awesome. They couldn't believe all the functionality built into FreeBSD and the huge number of applications that come with the CD ROM set. They also were surprised to learn that you can download the OS and most of the applications for free. Here's where I'm having some trouble --- Some of the most frequent questions I'm getting are: "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get everything for free, why isn't everybody using it?" Another one is: "This is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the people that produce it make any money?" or.."How can they produce such an excellent product and support it without any profits?" I'm having trouble addressing these questions because my understanding of the current Open Source Movement is a bit limited and the topic seems fairly complex to me. I would be so grateful if someone could help me provide some good answers to these questions or point me to a related site? Thanks. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 13:44:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E4837B672; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Joe.Warner@smed.com) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB716189; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05854; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:44:13 -0400 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:44:03 -0400 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 85256907.0071D9A2 ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:43:32 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Message-Id: <85256907.0071D89C.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:45:04 -0600 Subject: Manager's response re: FreeBSD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's a response I got from one of my managers re: FreeBSD. Any comments or replys would be welcome. Thanks. Joe I had actually heard most of those questions and answers before, but that was a nice review. As I see it, our problem has several facets: One is that Novell and now Microsoft have spent years training and certifying people to use and administer their products. In so doing, they have created a captive sales force to promote their products at the expense of the competition. Once you have invested a lot of time in getting yourself certified, and your future career seems tied to that certification, there is a natural reluctance to jump ship and start working with something new or different. If you don't constantly work on Novell servers, for instance, it will be hard to keep sharp in that regard. A second problem is that there is a lack of trained Unix administrators within our organization. Even though Unix and Unix-like operating systems are very common on the planet, our organization has few of them in the IS dept. That is true locally, and obviously is true at corporate. Those who would be good at this are scattered in various departments, making it hard to get their presence felt. This shakes down to two issues; training and organization. If this OS is going to make progress in this company, there must be sufficient resources available to make it work (especially in transition), and there must be sufficient visibility that it can influence decision makers, especially at high levels. A third problem is the famous Microsoft marketing plan. We are a business partner with Microsoft. That probably means that in order to get good pricing on application software, we are encouraged to use NT as our platform of choice. While there are other products to compete with Microsoft,again you run up against issue #2. Clearly, when you look at our company, it has actively sought out arrangements with the largest and most powerful partners it can find, in this case, that is Microsoft. Even our strong tie with IBM did not put OS2 or AIX on any desktops. While I think there are good and persuasive arguments for Linux/FreeBSD Unix as an operating system, for these reasons, right now I don't see it having the political clout in our organization necessary to actually be placed in service. The places where I think it could make inroads is in those areas that NT is weakest. Unfortunately, most of those uses are handled out of corporate (Webservers, large volume servers, firewalls, gateways, etc.). What is left? I think that is our challenge, to find some niches where NT is too expensive or inflexible to offer a solution. Your solution of the packet sniffer is an excellent one. We need to promote that solution, install it and train the staff on its use. Once we are all using it, you will need to find a way to sing its praises to corporate in a way that won't offend any entrenched interests. If you are ultimately successful, then you can use that beach-head to find other niches to exploit. Good luck. As always, if you or any of your IM force is caught or killed our secretary will disavow any knowledge of your activities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 13:52:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.aracnet.com (mail3.aracnet.com [216.99.193.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609B437B778; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:52:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail3.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06618; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:52:28 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id NAA04396; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:52:25 -0700 Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:52:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <85256907.0071D89C.00@Deimos.smed.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > are all using it, you will need to find a way to sing its praises to > corporate in a way that won't offend any entrenched interests. If you are > ultimately successful, then you can use that beach-head to find other > niches to exploit. > > Good luck. As always, if you or any of your IM force is caught or killed > our secretary will disavow any knowledge of your activities. All I can say is that you at least work for one cool guy! They're open minded, willing to try a new approach, encouraged you to try, and pretty much gave you a direction to start in. Not bad... Hard to find managers like that anymore! Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 15:37:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dnsp1.sce.com (dnsp1.sce.com [155.13.48.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5322937B8C9; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ryan.Gamo@sce.com) Received: from D058661.sce.com (D058661.sce.com [155.13.167.39]) by dnsp1.sce.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/5.5.5) with ESMTP id PAA58172; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:36:52 -0700 From: Ryan.Gamo@sce.com Received: from go2ntswpr01.sce.com (D068976.sce.com [155.13.76.17]) by D058661.sce.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7) with ESMTP id PAA41590; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:36:52 -0700 Received: from go2ntdomc01.sce.com (unverified) by go2ntswpr01.sce.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:36:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.2a (Intl) 23 November 1999 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 15:36:42 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GO2NTDOMC01/SVR/SCE/EIX(Release 5.0.1a (Intl)|17 August 1999) at 06/23/2000 03:36:43 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Textbook management response. A lot of managers (especially non-technical ones) need to trust their technical resources such as yourself. Whatever you presented him with, must have been pretty good. He seems well informed. Realizing that FreeBSD can definitely fulfill some roles in your organization. It is a compact and versatile OS. Ryan M. Gamo IT Application Services - TDBU Phone: (626)308-6696 * Fax: (626)308-6390 Pager: (888)586-7992 PIN 318489 "KNOW YOUR ROLE" Joe.Warner@smed.com Sent by: To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-newbies@F freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG reeBSD.ORG cc: Subject: Manager's response re: FreeBSD 06/23/2000 01:45 PM Here's a response I got from one of my managers re: FreeBSD. Any comments or replys would be welcome. Thanks. Joe I had actually heard most of those questions and answers before, but that was a nice review. As I see it, our problem has several facets: One is that Novell and now Microsoft have spent years training and certifying people to use and administer their products. In so doing, they have created a captive sales force to promote their products at the expense of the competition. Once you have invested a lot of time in getting yourself certified, and your future career seems tied to that certification, there is a natural reluctance to jump ship and start working with something new or different. If you don't constantly work on Novell servers, for instance, it will be hard to keep sharp in that regard. A second problem is that there is a lack of trained Unix administrators within our organization. Even though Unix and Unix-like operating systems are very common on the planet, our organization has few of them in the IS dept. That is true locally, and obviously is true at corporate. Those who would be good at this are scattered in various departments, making it hard to get their presence felt. This shakes down to two issues; training and organization. If this OS is going to make progress in this company, there must be sufficient resources available to make it work (especially in transition), and there must be sufficient visibility that it can influence decision makers, especially at high levels. A third problem is the famous Microsoft marketing plan. We are a business partner with Microsoft. That probably means that in order to get good pricing on application software, we are encouraged to use NT as our platform of choice. While there are other products to compete with Microsoft,again you run up against issue #2. Clearly, when you look at our company, it has actively sought out arrangements with the largest and most powerful partners it can find, in this case, that is Microsoft. Even our strong tie with IBM did not put OS2 or AIX on any desktops. While I think there are good and persuasive arguments for Linux/FreeBSD Unix as an operating system, for these reasons, right now I don't see it having the political clout in our organization necessary to actually be placed in service. The places where I think it could make inroads is in those areas that NT is weakest. Unfortunately, most of those uses are handled out of corporate (Webservers, large volume servers, firewalls, gateways, etc.). What is left? I think that is our challenge, to find some niches where NT is too expensive or inflexible to offer a solution. Your solution of the packet sniffer is an excellent one. We need to promote that solution, install it and train the staff on its use. Once we are all using it, you will need to find a way to sing its praises to corporate in a way that won't offend any entrenched interests. If you are ultimately successful, then you can use that beach-head to find other niches to exploit. Good luck. As always, if you or any of your IM force is caught or killed our secretary will disavow any knowledge of your activities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 16:10: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.thuntek.net (mail2.thuntek.net [206.206.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A1A37B649; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (abq-115.thuntek.net [207.66.52.115]) by mail2.thuntek.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16005; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:09:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3953EEC6.BBF7CD22@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:12:06 -0600 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: Don@Silver-Lynx.com Organization: Silver Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD References: <85256907.0071D89C.00@Deimos.smed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Joe - I echo the sentiment about a cool boss. As a company owner myself, I'd like to suggest a few more thoughts to share with him. First, it takes a lot fewer sysadmins to run a BSD network than an NT one. Even more so, if you can put the end users on BSD with Applix rather than Dozo because then all the user machines can be centrally admin'd as well. My experience has been that BSD has a much steeper setup-time expense but a much smaller down-the-road admin cost. Second, with BSD you very rarely need console access. My SysAdmin is Ukrainian, and as a 19-year-old kid he knows enough to be writing articles about cracking techniques for TechRepublic.com. The fall of the USSR has created a tremendous window of opportunity for global enterprise thinking, and this is one of the more pleasant aspects of it. -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Silver-Lynx.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 20:20:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FF7937B733; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id MAA05750; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:20:29 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <39541EE8.EBD5BDDF@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:37:28 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe.Warner@smed.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some questions re: FreeBSD References: <85256907.0054D783.00@Deimos.smed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > > Here's where I'm having some trouble --- Some of the most frequent > questions I'm getting are: "If you can do all this with FreeBSD and get > everything for free, why isn't everybody using it?" * Because people who responsible for software purchase are usually ignorant of software, so they only authorize use of Big Name software companies (Microsoft, IBM, etc). * Because Big Name software companies usually make deals that exchange discount prices for non-use of competing products. * Because you go to a bookstore and that's not what you see in the bookshelves. * Marketing. * Because it isn't as easy to use as Windows. * Because it isn't as forgiving of errors as Windows. * Because, sometimes, other software present better solutions. > Another one is: "This > is an excellent OS but if people can get it for free, how do the people > that produce it make any money?" Notice that we do not produce the applications that come with FreeBSD. Other people do that, and the reasons are similar. There are four categories of people who work on these software projects: 1. Those who do it for a hobby. 2. Those who are students, for whom the chance of getting their names known world wide presents a great chance of future opportunities. 3. Researchers of public institutions. 4. Those who use that software for their work. They use the product because it solves their problems best of all competition. They work on the product to make it solve their problems better. They donate their code back because sharing code this way increases it's quality, and removes the need of retrofitting the code in each new version. In other words, their jobs get easier. The origin of these projects can be found in all of the above. Apache Web Server, for example, was created because, simply put, all other solutions sucked. So the people who NEEDED a good web server went ahead and created one. I think Diablo, the news server created by Matt Dillon, has the same origin. And, right now, it is being worked on by people who *need* a good news server. FreeBSD, being an OS instead of a application, has volunteers from all of the above classes. People who's work is made easier by it, researchers for public and private institutions, CS students, high school students, and even some hobbists. > or.."How can they produce such an > excellent product and support it without any profits?" Now, there is a NEW class of people involved with Open Source. Those who sell SUPPORT for the product. By leveraging on the man power of the other classes and the technical advantages of having the source open for all to see (and fix, and add new features), they earn money by selling integrated solutions or technical support for that software. Contributing back to the project helps make sure it grows and earn more market share, thus increasing their potential market. That's essentially the deal between BSDi and FreeBSD. BSDi employs many people whose job is address weaknesses of FreeBSD. They make money by giving technical support for FreeBSD as well as selling solutions; for example (hypothetical), a "plug-and-play" web server, including hardware, OS and software all configured to attend to the client's needs. > I'm having trouble > addressing these questions because my understanding of the current Open > Source Movement is a bit limited and the topic seems fairly complex to me. Open Source Movement is a huge social phenomenum, which will give birth to many, many thesis in psychology, sociology, philosophy and economy. And, possibly, law. > I would be so grateful if someone could help me provide some good answers > to these questions or point me to a related site? You can search for the writings of Eric Raymond (esr), the documents of the Free Software Foundation, and rebuttals of these writings by, for example, Bertrand Meyers. You can look up the "ask slashdot" questions on, well, slashdot. But, honestly, I dislike most of the above references because, simply put, they assume a particular cross-section of the Open Software movements is _all_ the open software movement. By ESR accounts, you would think FreeBSD wasn't part of it. By Bertrand Meyers angry attacks on ESR and FSF, you would *also* think FreeBSD wasn't part of it. :-) The reason for this is that FSF, whose contribution to the Open Source movement can hardly be understated, has behind it a very radical leftist philosophical position. While they deny accusations of being "communists" and state their embrace of free markets, this applies to everything but software. :-) Software, for them, MUST be free and shared. They are radicals, their followers are radicals, and the people most offended by their position are radicals. The rest of us, just trying to live and let live, tend to get ignored by both camps. :-) So... well, see the answers I gave to your questions. If you think through them, you ought to be able to answer most questions about the Open Source movement. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@the.great.underground.bsdconpiracy.org Windows works, for sufficently small values of "works". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 20:55: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 515E037BB21 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:54:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 38188 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2000 03:54:51 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by 144.16.71.20 with SMTP; 24 Jun 2000 03:54:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 31574 invoked by uid 211); 24 Jun 2000 03:54:39 -0000 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:24:39 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Joe.Warner@smed.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some questions re: FreeBSD Message-ID: <20000624092439.A31497@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Joe.Warner@smed.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <85256907.0054D783.00@Deimos.smed.com> <39541EE8.EBD5BDDF@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39541EE8.EBD5BDDF@newsguy.com>; from dcs@newsguy.com on Sat, Jun 24, 2000 at 11:37:28AM +0900 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel C. Sobral said on Jun 24, 2000 at 11:37:28: > * Because it isn't as forgiving of errors as Windows. I keep seeing this one and also "it's not as easy to administer as Windows". Both of which are nonsense (imo). Any unix has so many inbuilt safeguards that it's *much* more forgiving of errors than windows -- with windows any user can easily screw up the whole machine. And as for administration, how many people have an unmaintained windows machine running for weeks, let alone months or years? The way you use windows is to run it as for as long as it works, and then reinstall. With that approach any OS is easy to administer. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 23: 9:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1930937BB57 for ; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA37523; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:03:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200006240603.CAA37523@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Joe.Warner@smed.com" Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:05:42 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <85256907.0071D89C.00@Deimos.smed.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:45:04 -0600, Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: >Here's a response I got from one of my managers re: FreeBSD. Any comments >or replys would be welcome. Thanks. The points raised by your boss are very good and very real. I don't know your environment and don't know what would work for you, but I am going to share what is going on where I work. I just started a week ago a job at a place where I used to work. Since I left they are now using Unix more than when I had left. Unfortunately they don't have much Unix knowledge inhouse. From talking to the network manager I gathered that he was worried about this lack of knowledge. On the other hand I have the head of HR which mentioned that she wanted an intranet. Having this info I decided to try to use this to my advantage. I talked to the network admin and asked him "what was his feeling about Unix". He flat out told me that he was not happy with NT and that "previous management" had replaced some Netware and Mac boxes with NT and things were worse. He again repeated his concern about in-house knowledge... I was waiting for that. I told him that I wanted to setup an Intranet to use it for "training" and that eventually we could use it "officially" for putting information. At the mean time I have been talking to the tech guys (programmers and network people) and gather their support and interest. Mentioned to the HR admin that we were "thinking" on starting to do some initial work on the Intranet. Basically I have been researching the interest and try to present FreeBSD as a solution to particular business needs, training and an Intranet. I asked the Network admin if he could give me any old box to install FreeBSD. His answer was that there is an old fileserver that he could give me as long as he cleared with our boss. I don't know specs, but I am sure that that computer is much better than what I would have settled for. :-) Francisco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 23 23:55:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480A937BB69; Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustident!@homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15219; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:55:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39545BA5.2D404D68@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:56:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: Joe.Warner@smed.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rick Hamell wrote: > > > are all using it, you will need to find a way to sing its praises to > > corporate in a way that won't offend any entrenched interests. If you are > > ultimately successful, then you can use that beach-head to find other > > niches to exploit. > > > > Good luck. As always, if you or any of your IM force is caught or killed > > our secretary will disavow any knowledge of your activities. > > All I can say is that you at least work for one cool guy! They're > open minded, willing to try a new approach, encouraged you to try, and > pretty much gave you a direction to start in. Not bad... Hard to find > managers like that anymore! Hear, hear. What a cool boss. Be sure to install FreeBSD in a partition (or on a new disk) on his machine and teach him everything you know. Also, keep looking for new niches to pound those BSD boxes into. Anything remotely related to networking is usually a good inroad. A departmental web server, one of those web-calendar apps for scheduling team meetings and conference rooms, etc. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 24 6:19:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F09137B578 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jswarner@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 10890 invoked by alias); 24 Jun 2000 13:19:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 10873 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jun 2000 13:19:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uswest.net) (63.224.105.160) by slkcpop1.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2000 13:19:13 -0000 Message-ID: <3954B474.290545F3@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:15:32 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , " Joe.Warner@smed.com" Subject: Re: Manager's response re: FreeBSD References: <200006240603.CAA37523@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Francisco, That's really great! I'm glad to hear about someone else making making some head-way. This will be a great opportunity for you to get some good experience and you'll be in a better position in the future to pass this experience on to others. At the same time, you'll be doing your company and co-workers a service by introducing them to different/better technology. Your situation does seem similar to mine and maybe if we continue to share our experiences, we can help each other and others who might be facing a similar situation. Keep up the good work. 8^} Joe Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:45:04 -0600, Joe.Warner@smed.com wrote: > > >Here's a response I got from one of my managers re: FreeBSD. Any comments > >or replys would be welcome. Thanks. > > The points raised by your boss are very good and very real. > I don't know your environment and don't know what would work for > you, but I am going to share what is going on where I work. > > I just started a week ago a job at a place where I used to work. > Since I left they are now using Unix more than when I had left. > Unfortunately they don't have much Unix knowledge inhouse. > >From talking to the network manager I gathered that he was > worried about this lack of knowledge. > > On the other hand I have the head of HR which mentioned that she > wanted an intranet. > > Having this info I decided to try to use this to my advantage. I > talked to the network admin and asked him "what was his feeling > about Unix". He flat out told me that he was not happy with NT > and that "previous management" had replaced some Netware and Mac > boxes with NT and things were worse. He again repeated his > concern about in-house knowledge... I was waiting for that. I > told him that I wanted to setup an Intranet to use it for > "training" and that eventually we could use it "officially" for > putting information. At the mean time I have been talking to > the tech guys (programmers and network people) and gather their > support and interest. Mentioned to the HR admin that we were > "thinking" on starting to do some initial work on the Intranet. > > Basically I have been researching the interest and try to > present FreeBSD as a solution to particular business needs, > training and an Intranet. > > I asked the Network admin if he could give me any old box to > install FreeBSD. His answer was that there is an old fileserver > that he could give me as long as he cleared with our boss. I > don't know specs, but I am sure that that computer is much > better than what I would have settled for. :-) > > Francisco > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 24 6:37:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2575737B50C for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA40083; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:30:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200006241330.JAA40083@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Joe Warner" Cc: " Joe.Warner@smed.com" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 09:33:05 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <3954B474.290545F3@uswest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD Corporate list (was Manager's response re: FreeBSD) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:15:32 -0600, Joe Warner wrote: >situation does seem similar to mine and maybe if we continue to share our >experiences, we can help each other and others who might be facing a similar >situation. I sent a note to the chat list and Jonathan M. Bresler (as I understand our listmaster) about creating a FreeBSD-Coporate mailing list. This list would be for those of us either trying to convince management about using FreeBSD or for those already using it. I think we face a series of challenges which I am not sure are properly proper for any of the existing lists. Prior to getting FreeBSD into the company it is "advocacy", but once it is in then which list would be appropiate? Questions is like the catch all, but it is too generic. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 24 6:53:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net (slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D96A437B6E0 for ; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 06:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jswarner@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 37596 invoked by alias); 24 Jun 2000 13:53:34 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 37581 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jun 2000 13:53:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uswest.net) (63.224.105.160) by slkcpop2.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2000 13:53:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3954BC7E.BDBC36BE@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:49:50 -0600 From: Joe Warner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes , freebsd newbies , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Corporate list (was Manager's response re: FreeBSD) References: <200006241330.JAA40083@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeah, a FreeBSD-Corporate or FreeBSD-Business or FreeBSD-Atwork list would be a good idea. I'm sure there are quite a few people out there that are facing similar challenges. Keep me posted. Thanks. Joe Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:15:32 -0600, Joe Warner wrote: > > >situation does seem similar to mine and maybe if we continue to share our > >experiences, we can help each other and others who might be facing a similar > >situation. > > I sent a note to the chat list and Jonathan M. Bresler (as I > understand our listmaster) about creating a FreeBSD-Coporate > mailing list. This list would be for those of us either trying > to convince management about using FreeBSD or for those already > using it. > > I think we face a series of challenges which I am not sure are > properly proper for any of the existing lists. > > Prior to getting FreeBSD into the company it is "advocacy", but > once it is in then which list would be appropiate? Questions is > like the catch all, but it is too generic. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jun 24 19:54:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1310537B59D; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA41526; Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:48:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200006250248.WAA41526@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "freebsd newbies" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Joe Warner" Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 22:49:45 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <3954BC7E.BDBC36BE@uswest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD Corporate list (was Manager's response re: FreeBSD) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 24 Jun 2000 07:49:50 -0600, Joe Warner wrote: >Yeah, a FreeBSD-Corporate or FreeBSD-Business or FreeBSD-Atwork list would be a >good idea. I'm sure there are quite a few people out there that are facing >similar challenges. Keep me posted. Thanks. So far I have not seem much interest in this list or have got the response that "this is" advocacy. I will give it a few days. If I get no positive feedback I will create the list at Egroups. yeah.. yeah I know they run on Linux.. but hey if I can't have it on the FreeBSD lists.... at least they welcome it with open arms. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message