From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 8:54:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D2D37B52D for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11897 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:58:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA23768 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:54:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE34E37BAEE for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA63347; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:54:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Terry Lambert Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <200003291850.LAA22495@usr05.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Apr 2000 17:54:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:50:19 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert writes: > > > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > > > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > > > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > > > > static device nodes like they're now? > > > Symlinks have my vote. > > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... > The other downside is that, unlike devfs contents, they'll get > just as stale just as fast as /dev gets out of date with the > currently running kernel and/or MAKEDEV. You expect the major/minor numbers for std{in,out,err} to change in the foreseeable future? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 8:57:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5F237BAD7 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11925 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:01:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA23785 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:57:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D7637BB0B for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost.freebsd.dk [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27931; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:56:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev In-reply-to: Your message of "04 Apr 2000 17:54:28 +0200." Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:56:51 +0200 Message-ID: <27929.954863811@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >Terry Lambert writes: >> > > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >> > > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* >> > > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd >> > > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old >> > > > static device nodes like they're now? >> > > Symlinks have my vote. >> > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... >> The other downside is that, unlike devfs contents, they'll get >> just as stale just as fast as /dev gets out of date with the >> currently running kernel and/or MAKEDEV. > >You expect the major/minor numbers for std{in,out,err} to change in >the foreseeable future? Uhm, why would they change ? They are just aliases for /dev/fd/[0-2] after all... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD coreteam member | BSD since 4.3-tahoe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 8:58:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3855E37B61A for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11935 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:01:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA23799 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:58:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4913D37B6E3 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA63629; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:57:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chris@calldei.com Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fdesc patch update: Now for mounting specifically on /dev/fd References: <20000330004918.E44541@holly.calldei.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Apr 2000 17:57:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Costello's message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:49:18 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello writes: > I have updated the patches to accomplish the following: > [...] Applies, builds and runs nicely on RELENG_4. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 9: 0:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68D837B52D for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11956 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:03:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA23818 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:00:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0A837BAD7 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA63652; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:59:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Terry Lambert , chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <27929.954863811@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Apr 2000 17:59:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Poul-Henning Kamp's message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 17:56:51 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > The other downside is that, unlike devfs contents, they'll get > > > just as stale just as fast as /dev gets out of date with the > > > currently running kernel and/or MAKEDEV. > > You expect the major/minor numbers for std{in,out,err} to change in > > the foreseeable future? > Uhm, why would they change ? They are just aliases for /dev/fd/[0-2] > after all... My point precisely. I got the impression that Terry was afraid they might get stale. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 16:36:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F04CC37B53F for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA28944 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:39:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA24545 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCBFD37BB8F for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02648; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA8qaWdf; Tue Apr 4 16:34:53 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12839; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004042335.QAA12839@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:35:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), chris@calldei.com, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Apr 04, 2000 05:54:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Terry Lambert writes: > > > > In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > > > > Anyway, since /dev/std* never change, how about having fdesc *only* > > > > > handle the /dev/fd/* stuff, so you can (non-union) mount it on /dev/fd > > > > > and let /dev/std* be either symlinks to /dev/fd/[012] or plain old > > > > > static device nodes like they're now? > > > > Symlinks have my vote. > > > The downside is they'll be broken if fdesc isn't mounted... > > The other downside is that, unlike devfs contents, they'll get > > just as stale just as fast as /dev gets out of date with the > > currently running kernel and/or MAKEDEV. > > You expect the major/minor numbers for std{in,out,err} to change in > the foreseeable future? No. I expect the targets of symbolic links to move out from under them, unless someone (like /dev/MAKEDEV) accepts responsibility for keeping them up to date, form this day forward, for all eternity. I expect /dev/std* to eventually be recognized as "not useful" and find its butt deprecated in favor of "/dev/fd{0-2}". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Apr 4 17:34: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FC737B9CD for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00461 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:37:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA24720 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:33:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB29537BBC3 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA37809; Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:32:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:32:57 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev Message-ID: <20000404193257.N27486@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <200004042335.QAA12839@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <200004042335.QAA12839@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, April 04, 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I expect /dev/std* to eventually be recognized as "not useful" and > find its butt deprecated in favor of "/dev/fd{0-2}". At this point, I believe that stdxxx may just be left alone as well as tty. Currently fdesc mounts normally on a /dev/fd directory. However, I don't think they will last forever, but will probably be supported up to a certain date before which "everybody has to MAKEDEV". I also do not think /dev/stdxxx will be considered "not useful", but they, as separate device nodes, are certainly "bloat" considering that fdesc can be used for this and is much simpler, so why not keep the /dev files and lose the kernel /dev/std* code (and put in the fdesc code). This also allows us to yank out the /dev/fd/ static node support and replace them with more useful synthetic FS nodes. Does anybody else really disagree? -- |Chris Costello |Computers are a more fun way to do the same |work you'd have to do without them. `------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 2:17: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609F337B9F5 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:16:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06796 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:20:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA25320 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA25E37B98B for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA66719; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: chris@calldei.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev References: <200004042335.QAA12839@usr05.primenet.com> <20000404193257.N27486@holly.calldei.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 05 Apr 2000 11:16:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Chris Costello's message of "Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:32:57 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello writes: > However, I don't think they will last forever, but will probably > be supported up to a certain date before which "everybody has to > MAKEDEV". I also do not think /dev/stdxxx will be considered "not > useful", but they, as separate device nodes, are certainly "bloat" > considering that fdesc can be used for this and is much simpler, so > why not keep the /dev files and lose the kernel /dev/std* code (and > put in the fdesc code). There is no "kernel /dev/std*" code. /dev/std* are simply fd nodes with different names. They have the same major and minor numbers as /dev/fd/[012]. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 13:24:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BAC37B9CA for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19505 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:27:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA26259 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:24:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866AA37B603 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA40198; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:20:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:20:35 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev Message-ID: <20000405152035.T27486@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <200004042335.QAA12839@usr05.primenet.com> <20000404193257.N27486@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, April 05, 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Chris Costello writes: > > However, I don't think they will last forever, but will probably > > be supported up to a certain date before which "everybody has to > > MAKEDEV". I also do not think /dev/stdxxx will be considered "not > > useful", but they, as separate device nodes, are certainly "bloat" > > considering that fdesc can be used for this and is much simpler, so > > why not keep the /dev files and lose the kernel /dev/std* code (and > > put in the fdesc code). > > There is no "kernel /dev/std*" code. /dev/std* are simply fd nodes > with different names. They have the same major and minor numbers as > /dev/fd/[012]. It works just as well without that last sentence, then, and the point is generally the same. -- |Chris Costello |You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers. `--------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 14:49:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C16E37BA46 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20900 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:52:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA26417 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:48:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6161737BD40 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA26754; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:46:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnRaqUu; Wed Apr 5 14:22:26 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05958; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:23:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004052123.OAA05958@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Proposal: Union mount of fdesc on top of /dev To: chris@calldei.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:23:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp), freebsd-arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000404193257.N27486@holly.calldei.com> from "Chris Costello" at Apr 04, 2000 07:32:57 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tuesday, April 04, 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I expect /dev/std* to eventually be recognized as "not useful" and > > find its butt deprecated in favor of "/dev/fd{0-2}". > > At this point, I believe that stdxxx may just be left alone > as well as tty. Currently fdesc mounts normally on a /dev/fd > directory. > > However, I don't think they will last forever, but will > probably be supported up to a certain date before which > "everybody has to MAKEDEV". I also do not think /dev/stdxxx will > be considered "not useful", The intent of /dev/tty was to allow you to reopen your controlling tty, after losing all file descriptors for it. I really don't know what /dev/std* is for; it's not for your controlling tty (that's what 'tty' is for). It's not for doing a descriptor pass to another program via UNIX domain sockets, when you don't know the file name of an open descriptor (putatively because you are a bad programmer, and failed to save the name you used in the "open" call -- that's what /dev/fd/* is for). It's not so you can get another fd open on stdin/stdout/stdio (that's what "dup" is for). > but they, as separate device nodes, > are certainly "bloat" considering that fdesc can be used for this > and is much simpler, so why not keep the /dev files and lose the > kernel /dev/std* code (and put in the fdesc code). That's a good idea, if the intent of these nodes, seperate from the fd nodes, was to maintain markers. From my reading of "ls -l", there isn't seperate code for this, though. They use the same major and minor as /dev/fd/{0-2}. I guess we can consider this a case of "putting the ``backwards'' into ``backwards compatability''". > This also allows us to yank out the /dev/fd/ static node > support and replace them with more useful synthetic FS nodes. This is a good idea, period. There shouldn't be something visible in the namespace that doesn't refer to something that's real (one of the original intents of a devfs was to address this fact; the other intents were avoiding synchronization, static node creation, supporting NFS boots from systems that couldn't represent enough bits in their major/minor numbers, supporting dynamically loaded devices, and supporting "clone" devices (e.g. a _real_ /dev/pty/), etc.. One drawback, though, is that the ideal place to do something like this is by adding a "handler" for a portion of the devfs namespace (like the /dev/pty/ handler would want to be), rather than using a mount to do the job. But a mount will work for now, I guess. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 22:19: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CB537B986 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:19:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA28511 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:22:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA27138 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:19:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC0D37B563 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 22:17:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA96329 for arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:21:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 00:21:26 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000406002126.B80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is designed to be extensible. An API document and rough code is at: http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd Thanks... -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 23: 2:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2FD37B7EE for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28978 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:06:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA27226 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:02:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C0037B6D2 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3BF1CE0; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code In-Reply-To: Message from Jonathan Lemon of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 00:21:26 CDT." <20000406002126.B80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:02:23 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000406060223.CF3BF1CE0@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon wrote: > I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > designed to be extensible. > > An API document and rough code is at: > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd Jonathan already knows, but a couple of guys at yahoo are very excited about this stuff as it looks like it can replace our hack that we've been using for a few years. This stuff is designed to replace a select/poll loop and avoids the expensive setup/teardown of select/poll state each time around the loop. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Apr 5 23: 9:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28CFE37B518 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29103 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:13:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA27246 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:09:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0D937BA16 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from justin@apple.com) Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22463 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scv1.apple.com (scv1.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.5) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:24 -0700 Received: from glitch ([17.219.158.69]) by scv1.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA03090 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 23:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004060609.XAA03090@scv1.apple.com> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:09:09 -0700 From: "Justin C. Walker" Reply-To: justin@apple.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.305) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, April 5, 2000, at 10:21 PM, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > designed to be extensible. > > An API document and rough code is at: > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd Hi, Jonathan, This looks quite similar to what we've done on Mac OS X (Darwin), which you can check out at publicsource.apple.com. It's designed to replace, architecturally, the use of select() in most applications. It is most effective where there is a lot of activity on a lot of file descriptors. Currently, the only armed piece of the file descriptor world is the socket, and it seems to be quite effective. Check out the QuickTime Streaming Server at the same site for usage. See for the usual terse documentation. Regards, Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 13:10:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2076237B6EA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00439 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:13:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA33727 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DB137C062 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA22553; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:13:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:13:12 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Justin C. Walker" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000406151312.E80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004060609.XAA03090@scv1.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004060609.XAA03090@scv1.apple.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 11:09:09PM -0700, Justin C. Walker wrote: > On Wednesday, April 5, 2000, at 10:21 PM, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > > that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > > for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > > designed to be extensible. > > > > An API document and rough code is at: > > > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd > > Hi, Jonathan, > > This looks quite similar to what we've done on Mac OS X (Darwin), which > you can check out at publicsource.apple.com. It's designed to replace, > architecturally, the use of select() in most applications. It is most > effective where there is a lot of activity on a lot of file descriptors. Yes, that is what initially motivated me to write this; having a scalable notification mechanism for a large number of descriptors. However, this is general enough that it can act as a general event mechanism, and isn't limited to file deescriptors. Right now, I have sockets and UFS vnodes connected, and I've converted the `tail' utility to use the new kqueue() mechanism, so the process immediately gets notified of changes to a file it is monitoring. There is also a hack to allow queueing an AIO event after the I/O has finished. Another possibility would be to make this a general `timer' mechanism, simply by allowing an EV_TIMER event to be hooked up directly to the kernel timing wheel, giving the application an unlimited number of timers. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 13:26:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526B837B8F7 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00602 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:29:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA33780 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:25:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from caspian.plutotech.com (caspian.plutotech.com [206.168.67.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2FB37B60F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@caspian.plutotech.com) Received: from caspian.plutotech.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by caspian.plutotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26057; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:24:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gibbs@caspian.plutotech.com) Message-Id: <200004062024.OAA26057@caspian.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: "Justin C. Walker" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:13:12 CDT." <20000406151312.E80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 14:24:24 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> > An API document and rough code is at: >> > >> > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd I have not yet looked at your interface, but will this weekend. So long as the interface can be expanded to handle generic event, semaphore, and mutex objects, I'll certainly approve of it. Unix has long needed an equivalent to NT's WaitForXXXXEvent API. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 13:52:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B905A37C15A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08032 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:55:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA33868 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:52:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903D737BAF2 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29965 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA24779 for arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:49:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 13:49:16 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [If you reply to this message -- one line responses will be ignored. I expect detailed explanation and arguments.] I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh with tcsh. Tcsh started life as the CSRG BSD csh sources, is maintained by a BSD developer, and is fully under the BSD license. I can find zero reason to keep our limited UI /bin/csh. I've seen *MANY* people get highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra tcsh features. Before someone asks here are the sizes: 379900 /bin/csh* 561536 /bin/sh* 336852 tcsh* 735152 tcsh.static* Yes I know tcsh is larger than csh, but does that *really* matter? Only the "operator" user in PicoBSD uses csh, and that could easily be changed to `sh'. I can't find any CSH scripts that are part of PicoBSD, so I don't see where csh is a dependency for PicoBSD. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 14:22: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B64A37C101 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09437 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:25:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA33948 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:21:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4111037BFB7; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24730; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:21:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24162; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:21:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:21:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [If you reply to this message -- one line responses will be ignored. I > expect detailed explanation and arguments.] > > > I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh > with tcsh. While I use tcsh, and it's the very first package I install after I build a new system, I disagree with this move. My reasons are as such: 1) Which shells to use is a religion. No matter what you do, the shell you install won't be correct. 2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a completely/fully functional workstaion. That's what the ports are for. It's meant to be the most basic installation, and if you need more than the basics, install ports. 3) FreeBSD is often used in embedded systems (see PicoBSD), where the smaller size/functionality is *better* to have. Most systems do *NOT* need the additional functionality that csh provides. Also, csh is still used by many sites (bogusly, IMO) for shell scripts, and csh does the job adequately. 4) CSH is provided because it's part of BSD sources, and has been for years and years. If CSH wasn't part of BSD sources for years, I'd argue for it's removal. But, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and that's where we've drawn it. There is no *need* for tcsh any more that there is a need to replace sh with bash or ksh, or whatever. tcsh provides no additional functionality that the system can use, and only provides functionality for users. The FreeBSD base system is intended to make a running system, and is not intended to please every user that should ever use it. Finally, it seems to me that FreeBSD is being used in two main environments as of late. First, is the ISP/workstation environment. In this setup, tcsh certainly doesn't hurt, since neither disk-space or resident memory size is an issue. However, in the second (becoming more and more common) area, size and memory use is a *BIG* deal. That's the embedded system market. PicoBSD is just *one* of those environments. People like Whistle, Juniper, and a host of other folks use FreeBSD as a platform, and 400K is arguably a *BIG* deal on limited media. Plus, the additional memory use, since at this point csh uses less memory than sh, which might be an issue for some embedde systems. The bottom line is that a small CSH implementation that is simple is better for the base system than a feature-rich CSH version that satisfies the needs of interactive users, which are rarely used in embedded system. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn't a win, especially when Paul is fully capable of going out and finding his own money. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 14:22:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B4437C109 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09445 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:25:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA33962 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:22:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6BB37BC7C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:21:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA90627; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004062121.OAA90627@apollo.backplane.com> To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh :with tcsh. Tcsh started life as the CSRG BSD csh sources, is maintained :by a BSD developer, and is fully under the BSD license. I can find zero :reason to keep our limited UI /bin/csh. I've seen *MANY* people get :highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh :users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because :csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra :tcsh features. : :Before someone asks here are the sizes: : : 379900 /bin/csh* : 561536 /bin/sh* : 336852 tcsh* : 735152 tcsh.static* : :Yes I know tcsh is larger than csh, but does that *really* matter? Only :the "operator" user in PicoBSD uses csh, and that could easily be changed :to `sh'. I can't find any CSH scripts that are part of PicoBSD, so I :don't see where csh is a dependency for PicoBSD. : :-- :-- David (obrien@NUXI.com) I don't think we can replace /bin/csh with tcsh, for compatibility reasons. Thousands upon thousands of scripts use csh and the risk is just too great that we might break some of them. Remember /bin/sh vs /bin/bash? I'll admit /bin/csh vs /bin/tcsh is less of a problem, but it's still a problem. I think we *CAN* change the default shell to tcsh, and make /bin/tcsh official (rather then having to use /usr/local/bin/tcsh). I've used tcsh for years, even for shell scripts (because it doesn't have internal variable size limitations for things like foreach loops containing backticked command output), and I think making it the default is an excellent idea. I would also propose that the default csh.cshrc (which tcsh sources) still be used for both tcsh and csh since it's so trivial to test which one is sourcing the file. I do *NOT* recommend creating a separate .tcshrc. And I would also propose that we turn command-line partial-history- completion on by default. Once you start using it, you will never go back (Amiga, anyone?). Finally, I recommend that we map ^W to word-erase (for tcsh). for "/etc/csh.cshrc": if ( $shell == "/bin/tcsh" || $shell == "/usr/local/bin/tcsh" ) then set prompt = "%m:%/%# " set symlinks = expand bindkey "^W" backward-delete-word bindkey -k up history-search-backward bindkey -k down history-search-forward endif -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 14:46:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EA9E37BA41 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10319 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA34010 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:45:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F10537C0ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:45:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30277; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA25247; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:45:02 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Nate Williams Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:21:07PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:21:07PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > 2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a > completely/fully functional workstaion. I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that is useful. I am also tired of explaining to Linux users why our /bin/csh doesn't have as nice a UI as tcsh. > 3) FreeBSD is often used in embedded systems (see PicoBSD), I did see PicoBSD (as I mentioned). Can someone show me where it is required by PicoBSD? > and csh does the job adequately. As would Tcsh. > 4) CSH is provided because it's part of BSD sources, and has been for > years and years. If CSH wasn't part of BSD sources for years, I'd > argue for it's removal. But, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and > that's where we've drawn it. Ok, then I'll take as diff from our csh sources to the tcsh sources. I'll then commit that diff. I could easily do that under the guise of enhancing our csh. But wait, isn't that what Christos Zoulas has already done. Hum, why not just import tcsh and do it the easy way. > There is no *need* for tcsh any more that there is a need to replace sh > with bash or ksh, or whatever. The need is our root's shell is crappy. Very crappy. I install enough boxes from scratch that installing tcsh, adding a user, sudo'ing to root; in order to get a tolerable shell is annoying. > Plus, the additional memory use, since at this point csh uses less > memory than sh Does it? Virtual memory yes, but what about core once running? -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 14:48:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFF1137BF2A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10416 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:52:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA34024 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:48:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8408D37C13D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:47:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA30287; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA25273; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:47:40 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Matthew Dillon Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406144740.B25177@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.OAA90627@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062121.OAA90627@apollo.backplane.com>; from dillon@apollo.backplane.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:21:36PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:21:36PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > I don't think we can replace /bin/csh with tcsh, for compatibility > reasons. Thousands upon thousands of scripts use csh and the risk > is just too great that we might break some of them. Show me one. > Remember /bin/sh vs /bin/bash? I'll admit /bin/csh vs /bin/tcsh is > less of a problem, but it's still a problem. Bash is a totally different code base then sh. tcsh is our BSD csh + enhancements. Where is the problem? > I would also propose that the default csh.cshrc (which tcsh sources) > still be used for both tcsh and csh since it's so trivial to test which > one is sourcing the file. I do *NOT* recommend creating a separate > .tcshrc. Agreed. > And I would also propose that we turn command-line partial-history- > completion on by default. Yes, one of the primary reasons for what I want to do. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 14:51:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F058737BDB6 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA10461 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:54:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA34042 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:51:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C0C37C0ED; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24994; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:50:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24400; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:50:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:50:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ Last reply on this, honest. I've said my piece ] > > 2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a > > completely/fully functional workstaion. > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > is useful. It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? > I am also tired of explaining to Linux users why our /bin/csh doesn't > have as nice a UI as tcsh. That's a *really* bad reason to bring in csh, and you know it. > > 3) FreeBSD is often used in embedded systems (see PicoBSD), > > I did see PicoBSD (as I mentioned). Can someone show me where it is > required by PicoBSD? PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded system. Also, PicoBSD is the framework, not the entire enchilada. > > and csh does the job adequately. > > As would Tcsh. If both are adequate, choose the smaller of the two since it benefits more folks that way. ;) > > There is no *need* for tcsh any more that there is a need to replace sh > > with bash or ksh, or whatever. > > The need is our root's shell is crappy. I disagree, but what's stopping you from using tcsh as root's shell? > > Plus, the additional memory use, since at this point csh uses less > > memory than sh > > Does it? Virtual memory yes, but what about core once running? On PicoBSD and other embedded system, swap is just as precious as real memory. (In some cases, it's even more precious...) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15: 5:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDC237C1F2 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:05:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10668 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:09:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34077 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:05:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB5A37C1FC; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA15415; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:00:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAWvaWdE; Thu Apr 6 15:00:47 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18343; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:01:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200004062201.PAA18343@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh To: obrien@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:01:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at Apr 06, 2000 02:45:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:21:07PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > 2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a > > completely/fully functional workstaion. > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > is useful. I am also tired of explaining to Linux users why our /bin/csh > doesn't have as nice a UI as tcsh. After you are done, then you can have them explain to you why their shell scripts that run on Linux's "/bin/sh" don't run on other UNIX systems. I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the same position of having a shell where script authors think they are using features which are available everywhere, but are specific to the "enhanced" shell, and will therefore only run on systems where "/bin/csh" is replaced with tcsh. Further, there is the PicoBSD issue. I think doing this would be as heinous a crime as replacing "/bin/ls" with colorls. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15: 9: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150BE37BC70 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:09:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10732 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:12:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34096 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:09:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F7037C189; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30366; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA25637; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:07:28 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Nate Williams Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406150728.A25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > > is useful. > > It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh > provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. > > I am also tired of explaining to Linux users why our /bin/csh doesn't > > have as nice a UI as tcsh. > > That's a *really* bad reason to bring in csh, and you know it. No I don't know it. You obvioulsy haven't had to fight to keep research labs using FreeBSD over Linux. > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > system. List them. These small embedded system developers can grab the old csh sources from the Attic and import them into their own source tree. > > As would Tcsh. > > If both are adequate, choose the smaller of the two since it benefits > more folks that way. ;) I dissagree. ;) Perhaps a poll? > > The need is our root's shell is crappy. > > I disagree, but what's stopping you from using tcsh as root's shell? It isn't part of the base system. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:10:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CE937BC70 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10753 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:14:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34118 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:10:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3ED137BA41 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30386; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA25692; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:08 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Nate Williams Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406151008.B25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > I did see PicoBSD (as I mentioned). Can someone show me where it is > > required by PicoBSD? > > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > system. Also, PicoBSD is the framework, not the entire enchilada. Ok, then what about this: 1. Import tcsh into src/contrib/tcsh 2. copy src/bin/csh/Makefile to src/bin/csh/Makefile.csh 3. create src/bin/csh/Makefile.tcsh 4. src/bin/csh/Makefile looks like this: .if defined(WANT_OLD_CSH) .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.csh .else .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.tcsh .endif -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:11:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB93837C109 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10775 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:15:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34131 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:11:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A407937BAF4 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30392; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA25713; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:11:26 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062201.PAA18343@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062201.PAA18343@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the > same position of having a shell where script authors think they > are using features which are available everywhere, but are > specific to the "enhanced" shell Tcsh buys us *INTERACTIVE* enhancements, not scripting ones. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:16:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470C937BCB0 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10797 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:19:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34154 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:16:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FE637C160; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20115; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:15:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the > > same position of having a shell where script authors think they > > are using features which are available everywhere, but are > > specific to the "enhanced" shell > > Tcsh buys us *INTERACTIVE* enhancements, not scripting ones. What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same way it was added to /bin/sh? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:24: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E67937BC66 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10846 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:27:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34177 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:24:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD2637BBCA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (root@14-078.006.popsite.net [216.126.137.78]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30447; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA27188; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:41 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406152341.A27165@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from winter@jurai.net on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:15:48PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:15:48PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same > way it was added to /bin/sh? I deemed importing Tcsh easier than hacking on csh. Plus Tcsh is maintained. We don't really have a csh maintainer. Also libedit doesn't do command line completion. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:27:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2866837BCB4 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10872 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:30:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34199 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:27:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2952637BCB4; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmz@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from jmz@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id PAA96089; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmz@FreeBSD.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004062227.PAA96089@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: jmz set sender to jmz@FreeBSD.org using -f From: Jean-Marc Zucconi To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: nate@yogotech.com, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> (obrien@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh X-Mailer: Emacs References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> David O'Brien writes: > The need is our root's shell is crappy. Very crappy. I install enough > boxes from scratch that installing tcsh, adding a user, sudo'ing to root; > in order to get a tolerable shell is annoying. I have another suggestion: remove completly csh and stick to /bin/sh :-) Once you have discovered its -E option it is not that bad. Jean-Marc (bash lover) -- Jean-Marc Zucconi PGP Key: finger jmz@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:33: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1269537C1C9 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10912 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:36:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34224 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:32:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBF037C1EA; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA91344; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004062231.PAA91344@apollo.backplane.com> To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.OAA90627@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406144740.B25177@dragon.nuxi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:21:36PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: :> I don't think we can replace /bin/csh with tcsh, for compatibility :> reasons. Thousands upon thousands of scripts use csh and the risk :> is just too great that we might break some of them. : :Show me one. Prove that there isn't one. You are willing to replace a critical system program with one that has diverged from its base for years and to hell with anyone who might be broken by it? Prove there isn't one. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 15:36: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2376137C1F1 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10941 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:39:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA34242 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:35:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C712937C1D7; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA91375; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:34:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004062234.PAA91375@apollo.backplane.com> To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406151008.B25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Ok, then what about this: : :1. Import tcsh into src/contrib/tcsh :2. copy src/bin/csh/Makefile to src/bin/csh/Makefile.csh :3. create src/bin/csh/Makefile.tcsh :4. src/bin/csh/Makefile looks like this: : : .if defined(WANT_OLD_CSH) : .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.csh : .else : .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.tcsh : .endif : :-- :-- David (obrien@NUXI.com) How about not. Just create /bin/tcsh, fixup the default csh.cshrc file and the default [root] shell and be done with it. Don't complicate things by trying to remove/replace csh. In addition to my earlier objects, I agree *completely* with Terry in regards to script writers starting to assume that tcsh features are csh features (for example, tcsh has additional variable substitution features that csh does not). -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 16:36:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F8637B636 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11471 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:40:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA34373 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:36:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEC337B664; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA38972; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406150728.A25607@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Apr 6, 2000 03:07:28 pm" To: obrien@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > > system. > > List them. Your not reading. He already listed a handfull, Juniper, Whistle, etc all. I'll ad 3 in I am working on, can't give you names, but 8K bites for me, let alone 400K. > These small embedded system developers can grab the old csh > sources from the Attic and import them into their own source tree. And you can go compile the tcsh port, now you tell me what one is easier for everyone involved. FreeBSD != ObrienBSD, you've already lost the battle, you said unless someone objected with technical reasons. You've been handed more than one technical reason, now go back to your installs and just deal with tcsh being a port. > > > As would Tcsh. > > > > If both are adequate, choose the smaller of the two since it benefits > > more folks that way. ;) > > I dissagree. ;) Perhaps a poll? Why a poll, I have seen 3 negatives and 1 ``if we do do this''. Ohh.. and yess... I am still a confirmed anti-bloat screaming monger from the good old days when a 10 command OS/8 CLI was just fine with me, and PIP had more options than ls. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 16:38:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760BD37BC4D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA11496 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:42:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA34402 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BEB37BC4D; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA38982; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004062337.QAA38982@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406151008.B25607@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Apr 6, 2000 03:10:08 pm" To: obrien@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams), arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > > I did see PicoBSD (as I mentioned). Can someone show me where it is > > > required by PicoBSD? > > > > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > > system. Also, PicoBSD is the framework, not the entire enchilada. > > Ok, then what about this: > > 1. Import tcsh into src/contrib/tcsh > 2. copy src/bin/csh/Makefile to src/bin/csh/Makefile.csh > 3. create src/bin/csh/Makefile.tcsh > 4. src/bin/csh/Makefile looks like this: > > .if defined(WANT_OLD_CSH) > .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.csh > .else > .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.tcsh > .endif Simplified: cd /usr/ports/shells/tcsh make install mv /bin/csh /bin/csh.real ln -s /usr/local/bin/tcsh /bin/csh Gee.... same number of steps... and we don't have to touch a bloddy line of the repository -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 16:58:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCF137BC6D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11707 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:01:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA34485 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016D737C1B2; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21360; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:57:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406152341.A27165@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:15:48PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same > > way it was added to /bin/sh? > > I deemed importing Tcsh easier than hacking on csh. Plus Tcsh is > maintained. We don't really have a csh maintainer. Also libedit doesn't > do command line completion. Why can't it do command line completion? el_set(e, EL_ADDFN, ...) is the hook you would use to do command line completion. I'm not sure what the problem is here. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 16:58:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D12D37BE56 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:58:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11708 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:01:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA34473 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2260637C1AB for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.cdrom.com [204.216.28.153]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA30922; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA00566; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:56:25 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406165625.A539@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406150728.A25607@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004062336.QAA38972@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:36:02PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD != ObrienBSD, you've already lost the battle, you ^^^^^^ That's "O'Brien" -- get it right! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 17:45:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF6637B77E for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12188 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:49:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA34641 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:45:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E06237C25E; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA02002; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:48:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200004070048.RAA02002@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: "David O'Brien" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 19:57:08 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:48:32 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:15:48PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same > > > way it was added to /bin/sh? > > > > I deemed importing Tcsh easier than hacking on csh. Plus Tcsh is > > maintained. We don't really have a csh maintainer. Also libedit doesn't > > do command line completion. > > Why can't it do command line completion? > > el_set(e, EL_ADDFN, ...) is the hook you would use to do command line > completion. I'm not sure what the problem is here. Because the work has already been done. Basically, the counter-arguments are all bunk. There aren't any substantial syntactic differences between the ancient version of tcsh that we call 'csh' and the modern version. Installing it under a different name reduces to some degree its usefulness and makes the bloat issue worse. I'm not sure quite where this burst of fear-of-progress and basic luddite-ism came from; I guess we've been making so much progress elsewhere that the establishmentarianists had to find something they felt they could resist safely. Come on, ladies. Be daring; do something new first for a change. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 17:46:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9349F37C215 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12195 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:49:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA34655 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:46:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from astralblue.com (adsl-209-76-108-39.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.76.108.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2C337B5E4; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Received: from localhost (ab@localhost) by astralblue.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17973; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@astralblue.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:24:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: Matthew Dillon Cc: "David O'Brien" , Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004062234.PAA91375@apollo.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote: | How about not. Just create /bin/tcsh, fixup the default csh.cshrc file | and the default [root] shell and be done with it. Don't complicate things | by trying to remove/replace csh. | | In addition to my earlier objects, I agree *completely* with Terry in | regards to script writers starting to assume that tcsh features are csh | features (for example, tcsh has additional variable substitution features | that csh does not). Sounds better. It'd be even better if we can have /bin/bash as well, but I wouldn't expect that far. :-p Cheers, Eugene -- Eugene M. Kim "Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music which people like, or make people who like your music." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 17:47: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E425837B5E4 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12209 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:50:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA34668 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:47:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8018E37C109 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:46:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA38311; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:15:48PM -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > > What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same > > > way it was added to /bin/sh? > > > > I deemed importing Tcsh easier than hacking on csh. Plus Tcsh is > > maintained. We don't really have a csh maintainer. Also libedit doesn't > > do command line completion. > > Why can't it do command line completion? > > el_set(e, EL_ADDFN, ...) is the hook you would use to do command line > completion. I'm not sure what the problem is here. How hard would that be to put into our Bourne shell? Point me at where to look if you don't mind, I'm looking for a C project to go next on my list. Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 17:49:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E66A37C1AE for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12232 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:52:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA34681 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:49:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E60137BA2E; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E0B1CD7; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: "David O'Brien" , Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: Message from "Matthew N. Dodd" of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:15:48 EDT." Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:47:19 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000407004719.D8E0B1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the > > > same position of having a shell where script authors think they > > > are using features which are available everywhere, but are > > > specific to the "enhanced" shell > > > > Tcsh buys us *INTERACTIVE* enhancements, not scripting ones. > > What is stopping you from adding libedit support to /bin/csh in the same > way it was added to /bin/sh? Why bother? By the time you've finished, you essentially end up with tcsh except you've diverged so far that you've created a new maintainence chore. The value in tcsh's completion support is that it is totally programmable and can be context sensitive, as well as the usual key to function binding. I have long wanted to replace csh with tcsh in the base tree. The scripting is so close to unchanged that it doesn't matter. Even then, the extensions are only active when running on a tty, not in script mode. IMHO, the change is as close to a risk-free change as you can get. Incidently, I'd be interested to know how many folks actually seriously use non-trivial csh scripts. I have not seen a csh script in over 10 years - this has mainly been helped along by every vendor having their own incompatable or broken version of csh. csh scripts are not portable, period. One other thing.. src/bin/csh appears to have large parts that are a derivative of tcsh! (since I don't have the sccs files I can't be certain, but things like SHORT_STRINGS came directly from tcsh's localization efforts) Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 18: 7:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F21937B636 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA12341 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:11:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA34725 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:07:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E422237B777 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:07:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id SAA97591; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:07:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code In-Reply-To: <20000406002126.B80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> from Jonathan Lemon at "Apr 6, 2000 00:21:26 am" To: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon writes: > I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > designed to be extensible. > > An API document and rough code is at: > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd Hi Jonathan.. Cool stuff! What about.. FILTER_WRITE connect sockets: socket has connected or failed to connect (same a select(2)'ing on a non-blocking socket after a connect(2)). FILTER_CHILD Child process event. ident is the child PID. Returns same status as wait(4), etc. FILTER_SIGNAL Signal received event. ident is the signal number. Overrides any signal handler for same (? wouldn't work for SEGV, etc :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 18:29:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9A037B9D0 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA12493 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:33:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA34761 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:29:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139D337BFFA; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca5-83.ix.netcom.com [209.109.234.83]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06274; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.6.9) id SAA86912; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:28:32 -0700 (PDT) To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406151008.B25607@dragon.nuxi.com> From: asami@freebsd.org (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Date: 06 Apr 2000 18:28:31 -0700 In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:10:08 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 40 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.6 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG First, let me mention that I *hate* csh and all its derivatives. I have switched from tcsh to bash many years ago and honestly not proud of being associated with a university who invented csh. That said, I think it is a good idea to replace csh with tcsh. tcsh and csh are so close, there is no issue on scripting (I am not aware of any incompatibilities between tcsh and csh commands that will make csh scripts fail), the only issue is whether we focus on the additional size or the inconvenience of not having it there from the beginning in single-user, fresh installations, etc. I don't think we should penalize the majority of our users because of a few (embedded systems people -- see below). * From: "David O'Brien" Now that Mike has shown up and made his obligatory comment to piss off enough people it might be too late to save you, but anyway.... ;) * Ok, then what about this: * * 1. Import tcsh into src/contrib/tcsh * 2. copy src/bin/csh/Makefile to src/bin/csh/Makefile.csh * 3. create src/bin/csh/Makefile.tcsh * 4. src/bin/csh/Makefile looks like this: * * .if defined(WANT_OLD_CSH) * .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.csh * .else * .include ${.CURDIR}/Makefile.tcsh * .endif I don't think that is necessary and needlessly bloats people's /usr/src by having two copies of almost identical source. My recommendation (as a Core-team member in charge of the ports collection) would be to make csh a port, linked statically by default with an option to install it in /bin, so embedded systems people who need csh rather than tcsh to be on their systems can easily get it. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 18:59:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCA337BD3D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12645 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:03:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA34803 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:59:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF6A37C1F1; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA38723; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:59:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 6 Apr 2000, Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami wrote: > I don't think that is necessary and needlessly bloats people's > /usr/src by having two copies of almost identical source. > > My recommendation (as a Core-team member in charge of the ports > collection) would be to make csh a port, linked statically by default > with an option to install it in /bin, so embedded systems people who > need csh rather than tcsh to be on their systems can easily get it. If I were working on an embedded system, the very first thing I'd chuck is csh. Nothing in the base depends on it being there, as opposed to /bin/sh which many things depend on. If you _have_ to have one, and you dno't have to have the other, it's a no brainer. I don't use csh at all (I even change my root shells to /bin/sh) so I can't really comment on the usability issue. However if the following things are all true, 1. There is no (ok, 99% of no) danger that it will break something important. 2. It's under the BSD license. 3. It's actively maintained. 4. Someone is willing to take responsibility for keeping it up to date. Then I don't see any reason not to import it. As for pedantry, I'm just as pedantic as the next person when it comes to shell scripting (witness my recent suggestions for dot.profile) but no one who writes scripts that have to be portable uses csh anyway. And no, that's not flame bait. Cruise through comp.unix.shell sometime if you don't believe me. Any additional resistance on this point can easily be overcome by David assuring everyone that he will properly comment on the non-portable elements in the man page. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19: 1:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C519537BFC1 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12667 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:04:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34826 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:01:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A185F37BC1F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA39531; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:04:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:04:43 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Archie Cobbs Cc: Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000406210443.I80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20000406002126.B80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 06:07:11PM -0700, Archie Cobbs wrote: > Jonathan Lemon writes: > > I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > > that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > > for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > > designed to be extensible. > > > > An API document and rough code is at: > > > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd > > Hi Jonathan.. Cool stuff! What about.. > > FILTER_WRITE > > connect sockets: > socket has connected or failed to connect (same a select(2)'ing > on a non-blocking socket after a connect(2)). I believe that is already handled right now; the filter will not trigger until the socket is actually connected. If it fails to connect, then it returns EV_EOF in the flag field. The actual code for the socket write filter is: kn->kn_data = sbspace(&so->so_snd); if (so->so_state & SS_CANTSENDMORE) { kn->kn_flags |= EV_EOF; return (1); } if (((so->so_state & SS_ISCONNECTED) == 0) && (so->so_proto->pr_flags & PR_CONNREQUIRED)) return (0); return (kn->kn_data >= so->so_snd.sb_lowat); > > FILTER_CHILD > > Child process event. ident is the child PID. Returns same status > as wait(4), etc. Hmm. Actually, you could have `FILTER_PID' to attach to an arbitrary process in the system, so you get notifications when it goes away. This might be useful for writing a monitoring tool which attaches to (say) your webserver and database processes. I don't know if this would be considered a security issue, since the information is probably already available through other means. > FILTER_SIGNAL > > Signal received event. ident is the signal number. Overrides > any signal handler for same (? wouldn't work for SEGV, etc :-) Queued signal delivery, with `data' giving a count of the number of times the signal happened? I suppose you could do this, but I'm not sure if it would be better than a normal signal() handler. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:12:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FC5C37B62A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12782 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:15:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34850 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:12:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC3837B62A; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03784; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:11:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA95308; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:10:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> To: obrien@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:49:16 PDT." <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:10:13 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra : tcsh features. I think this is a fine thing. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:14:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D2337BC1F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12794 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:18:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34864 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:14:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA0B37BC1F; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03792; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:13:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA95328; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:12:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070212.UAA95328@harmony.village.org> To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:50:49 MDT." <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> References: <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:12:46 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> Nate Williams writes: : [ Last reply on this, honest. I've said my piece ] : : > > 2) FreeBSD's base installation is *NOT* intended for you to have a : > > completely/fully functional workstaion. : > : > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that : > is useful. : : It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh : provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? Escape completion. Command line history. Yes, I do *NEED* those to effectively do root things. tsch has been the shell I type into init's prompt rather than using /bin/sh for years. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:15: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830B937BEED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12804 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:18:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34878 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:14:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76D937C165; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id F096C1C67; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:14:50 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Warner Losh Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406221450.W23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:10:13PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:10:13PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > : tcsh features. > > I think this is a fine thing. Since the opposition to this seems to want to count people who said no, add me as someone who says yes. I don't even use tcsh, either. So my support isn't because of some shell jihad. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:16:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E409C37BD3D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12811 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:19:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34894 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:16:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0C337C114; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:16:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20776; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:45:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20000406221450.W23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:45:51 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Bill Fumerola Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org, obrien@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Apr-00 Bill Fumerola wrote: > Since the opposition to this seems to want to count people who said no, add > me as someone who says yes. Me too :) > I don't even use tcsh, either. So my support isn't because of some shell > jihad. Heh.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:20: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3ED337C114 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:19:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA12844 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:23:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34908 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:19:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C569D37B62A; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03836; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:18:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA95404; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:18:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070218.UAA95404@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami , obrien@freebsd.org, Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:59:11 PDT." References: Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:18:03 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Doug Barton writes: : If I were working on an embedded system, the very first thing I'd : chuck is csh. Nothing in the base depends on it being there, as opposed to : /bin/sh which many things depend on. If you _have_ to have one, and you : dno't have to have the other, it's a no brainer. We have both csh and sh in our embedded system. However, we're living high on the hog with 48MB CF parts and know it. If there's ever a space crunch on these parts, vi and csh will be the first up against the wall to be shot. Not because they aren't useful and desirable, but because they are big. The nail that sticks up gets pounded down, as the Japanese say. : 4. Someone is willing to take responsibility for keeping it up to date. I think that's the most important reason to do this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A089237B62A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA13243 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:25:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34925 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:21:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E1D37C1FE for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA92896; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:20:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> To: Archie Cobbs Cc: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon), freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Jonathan Lemon writes: :> I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism :> that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events :> for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is :> designed to be extensible. :> :> An API document and rough code is at: :> :> http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd : :Hi Jonathan.. Cool stuff! What about.. Ditto, it looks pretty good. I have a couple of suggestions (apart from thinking of cool new filters to add). First, change the kevent structure to align it, deal with OS porting issues, and make room for future additions (like direct support for threads) without introducing backward compatibility problems. You also need a user-defined data field that is both passed and returned so you can associate arbitrary information with an event. I use event mechanisms like this all the time in embedded work and having a user-defined field adds an order of magnitude more functionality. struct kevent { int ident; int thread; short reserved1; short ipl; short filter; short flags; long data; union { int idata; void *pdata; } udata; void *reserved2[2]; }; udata: user defined data is copied to the returned events so you can identify them by more then just their descriptor (for example, to associate a user structure with them that your event handling code then uses directly). thread: (future) Set thread to return event on, 0 to return the event on any thread (or the main thread), -1 to create a new thread on the fly to handle the event. ipl: (future) Controls event retrieval ordering when multiple events are pending, just like interrupt priority levels in a hardware interrupt subsystem work. Finally, I think it would be prudent to change the timeout from milliseconds to microseconds. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:47:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A005637B83F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA15922 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:51:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34980 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:47:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF2637BF53; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e373D2i00201; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:13:02 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Bill Fumerola , arch@freebsd.org, obrien@freebsd.org, Warner Losh Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406201302.Q22104@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000406221450.W23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from doconnor@gsoft.com.au on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 11:45:51AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Daniel O'Connor [000406 19:42] wrote: > > On 07-Apr-00 Bill Fumerola wrote: > > Since the opposition to this seems to want to count people who said no, add > > me as someone who says yes. > > Me too :) I'm all for it if the tcsh maintainer speaks up that he thinks it's a good idea regarding the compatibilty issues brought up. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 19:54:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F071137C168 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA15949 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:58:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA34998 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:54:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com (bubba.whistle.com [207.76.205.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BB837B62A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id TAA02483; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200004070253.TAA02483@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code In-Reply-To: <20000406210443.I80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> from Jonathan Lemon at "Apr 6, 2000 09:04:43 pm" To: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon writes: > > > http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd > > > > Hi Jonathan.. Cool stuff! What about.. > > > > FILTER_WRITE > > > > connect sockets: > > socket has connected or failed to connect (same a select(2)'ing > > on a non-blocking socket after a connect(2)). > > I believe that is already handled right now; the filter will not > trigger until the socket is actually connected. If it fails to > connect, then it returns EV_EOF in the flag field. The actual code > for the socket write filter is: OK, good.. wasn't clear to me from the docs but I didn't read very hard. > > FILTER_CHILD > > > > Child process event. ident is the child PID. Returns same status > > as wait(4), etc. > > Hmm. Actually, you could have `FILTER_PID' to attach to an arbitrary > process in the system, so you get notifications when it goes away. > This might be useful for writing a monitoring tool which attaches > to (say) your webserver and database processes. I don't know if this > would be considered a security issue, since the information is probably > already available through other means. This would be very handy. wait() is one of those annoying blocking system call for which there is no select(2) equivalent .. instead, you have to catch SIGCHLD. > > FILTER_SIGNAL > > > > Signal received event. ident is the signal number. Overrides > > any signal handler for same (? wouldn't work for SEGV, etc :-) > > Queued signal delivery, with `data' giving a count of the number of > times the signal happened? I suppose you could do this, but I'm > not sure if it would be better than a normal signal() handler. I think it would be much much better and is IMHO required. Signal handlers are bogus because you can't do simple things like call malloc(3), etc (malloc is not reentrant and does not block signals). Also, signal notification in a select(2) based program requires setting up a secret pipe which you write to in order to wake up select(2) and to avoid a sigblock() race condition. As for Matt's comments.. "what he said" :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 20: 1:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE74737C0AC for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:01:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16022 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:05:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA35026 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:01:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF53837C0AC for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA41276; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:04:54 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:04:54 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Archie Cobbs , Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:20:54PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > :Jonathan Lemon writes: > :> I would like to solicit comments on the kqueue mechanism > :> that I've been working on. Currently, it will report events > :> for sockets, vnodes, and aio requests, and hopefully is > :> designed to be extensible. > :> > :> An API document and rough code is at: > :> > :> http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd > : > :Hi Jonathan.. Cool stuff! What about.. > > Ditto, it looks pretty good. I have a couple of suggestions (apart from > thinking of cool new filters to add). > > First, change the kevent structure to align it, deal with OS > porting issues, and make room for future additions (like direct support > for threads) without introducing backward compatibility problems. You > also need a user-defined data field that is both passed and returned > so you can associate arbitrary information with an event. I use event > mechanisms like this all the time in embedded work and having a > user-defined field adds an order of magnitude more functionality. > > struct kevent { > int ident; > int thread; > short reserved1; > short ipl; > short filter; > short flags; > long data; > union { > int idata; > void *pdata; > } udata; > void *reserved2[2]; > }; Um. One problem with this: the structure just went from 12 bytes (on a x86) to 32 bytes. I'm trying to keep this as small as possible, since I really want to minimize both the overhead of copying data back and forth, and the amount of space used in the kernel. I can see adding one more field (to 16 bytes), but doubling the size seems to be just too much. > udata: user defined data is copied to the returned events so you > can identify them by more then just their descriptor (for > example, to associate a user structure with them that your > event handling code then uses directly). This essentially moves the state into the kernel. My feeling is that it's not the kernel's job to track the data; if the user wants to associate more state with the identifier, then it can maintain that in user space. The (ident/filter) should be enough to identify the event. > thread: (future) Set thread to return event on, 0 to return the event > on any thread (or the main thread), -1 to create a new thread > on the fly to handle the event. The event is returned in the context of the calling thread; that is, the thread itself is what does the dequeing, so I'm not sure how this would be useful. Could you explain how this would work? > ipl: (future) Controls event retrieval ordering when multiple events > are pending, just like interrupt priority levels in a > hardware interrupt subsystem work. I was planning to simply handle this by creating multiple kq's. Then the caller builds its own priority mechanism by assigning the events to different kqueues, depending on what priority you want the returned event to be. > Finally, I think it would be prudent to change the timeout from > milliseconds to microseconds. I don't have any objection to this. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 20:41:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2C437BA53 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:41:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16196 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:44:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA35072 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:41:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3375637BD8C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA93335; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:40:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070340.UAA93335@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Archie Cobbs , Jonathan Lemon , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> short flags; :> long data; :> union { :> int idata; :> void *pdata; :> } udata; :> void *reserved2[2]; :> }; : :Um. One problem with this: the structure just went from 12 bytes :(on a x86) to 32 bytes. I'm trying to keep this as small as possible, :since I really want to minimize both the overhead of copying data :back and forth, and the amount of space used in the kernel. I can :see adding one more field (to 16 bytes), but doubling the size seems :to be just too much. While this is relevant, not having important features just to keep the structure small is only going to hurt the system call's functionality and scaleability. But if you are really that worried, then the most important field you can add is 'udata'. :This essentially moves the state into the kernel. My feeling is that :it's not the kernel's job to track the data; if the user wants to :associate more state with the identifier, then it can maintain that :in user space. The (ident/filter) should be enough to identify the :event. Udata is *extremely* important. In order to associate user data with an even in user space the user program must associate the data with the file descriptor. Since you can have multiple events associated with a single descriptor (e.g. read and write), this complicates matters even more. Worse, by NOT having udata or dispatch capabilities you essentially require that all event handling go through a single user-level mechanism, which is every similar to what must be done with select() now. With udata, especially when combined with a function dispatch of some sort (either event-to-thread or a function-dispatch field which is to be called on an event), various libraries in the program can all use the kernel queue system calls in their own way without interfering with each other. In fact, I would go as far as to say that a function dispatch field should be included in the event data structure as well. It's even more important then thread dispatch fields. It is VERY important that you be able to do this if you want to allow third party libraries to use the kernel event queueing mechanism without intefering with your own use of the mechanism. :> thread: (future) Set thread to return event on, 0 to return the event :> on any thread (or the main thread), -1 to create a new thread :> on the fly to handle the event. : :The event is returned in the context of the calling thread; that is, :the thread itself is what does the dequeing, so I'm not sure how this :would be useful. Could you explain how this would work? :... :Jonathan Consider a program that is linked against three or four third party libraries... for example, consider a program linked against the X11 libraries. Now lets say that the X11 libraries are multi-threaded and want to use the kernel queue mechanism to handle events asynchronously in the user space of the program using the library. It is not possible for the X11 libraries to do this if they happen to use a different dispatch mechanism then your main loop uses. In fact, if you look at how X (and other non-embedded subsystems) are organized, it is precisely this problem that leads to an inability to scale their interfaces. i.e. you can't use your neat cool event mechanism if you have to call another library's code that serves as the main loop for your program rather then you being able to serve as the main loop for your program. How much thread programming or embedded work have you ever done? This sort of stuff is bread and butter to those of us that do that. Here is an example of what a kernel-managed dispatch system with dispatch and udata could do: /* * Module implements an asynchronous write with timeout. */ somemodule_messing_with_some_tcp_connection(struct manage *m) { setdispatch(m->fd, m, module_write, priority, EVENT_WRITE); setdispatch(m->fd, m, module_read, priority, EVENT_READ); /* returns here */ } module_write(int fd, struct manage *m, int r) { issues write and either clears the dispatch function or allows it to remain, depending. } module_read(int fd, struct manage *m, int r) { issues read, deals with read data. } Notice a couple of things? Like for example the above code is completely independant of any other module or library. It does not require a central loop to read events nor does it have to use the same support library that some other library might use to implement event handling. But only if the event dispatch and user data ('m' in this case, which the kernel does not interpret but simply passes to the event handler) are directly supported by the kernel. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 21: 2:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E139E37B992 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16318 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:05:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA35102 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:02:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0105B37B992 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:01:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA93492; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:01:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey! (I snap my fingers), I got it! There is no need to copy anything back and forth from user space to kernel space! It's simple, really. How about this API: qfd = kqueue(); kqueuectl(qfd, filter, fd, struct event *ev); ev = kevent(qfd, timeout); or (another way to do kevent): n = kevent(qfd, struct event **ary, int nmax, struct timeval *timeout); The key thing here is that the kernel creates its own internal data structure which has the descriptor, filter operation, and a pointer to the *USER* event structure. The kernel would not otherwise copy the user event structure into kernel space nor would it copy it back to return the event. Instead when an event occurs the kernel does a copyout of *ONLY* the kernel data update for the event structure (the 'data') field. What it returns to user space in the kevent() call is not the event itself, but a POINTER to the event that the user originally passed it. If we do this then the user has the ability to extend the struct event structure to contain whatever the user wants. All the kernel cares about is the 'data' field. I would still reserve a bunch of fields for future direct kernel support for things like automatic function/thread dispatching, but this will result in a minimally sized in-kernel data structure and no copying back and forth (except to update the user 'data' field, which the kernel does in the kevent() syscall). The user event structure passed to the kernel (the kernel doesn't need to touch it at all except when populating 'data' when kevent() is returning events: struct event { long data; void (*dispatch)(struct event *ev); int reserved[2]; }; The kernel internal event structure (or equivalent): struct kevent { int fd; long data; /* to be copied into the uevent */ short filter; short flags; struct event *uevent; }; -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 21:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6DA37BA4A for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16378 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:19:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA35126 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:16:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9BED37C114; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA25502; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:15:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote: > [If you reply to this message -- one line responses will be ignored. I > expect detailed explanation and arguments.] Yes :-) "What they said" Kris P.S. Does this vote still count in light of the above? :-) ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 21:45:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1A137BD2D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16541 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:49:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA35190 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:45:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6519337BD2D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:45:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA43979; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:05 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 09:01:39PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > Hey! (I snap my fingers), I got it! > > There is no need to copy anything back and forth from user space to > kernel space! > > It's simple, really. How about this API: > > qfd = kqueue(); > kqueuectl(qfd, filter, fd, struct event *ev); > ev = kevent(qfd, timeout); > > or (another way to do kevent): > > n = kevent(qfd, struct event **ary, int nmax, struct timeval *timeout); > > The key thing here is that the kernel creates its own internal data > structure which has the descriptor, filter operation, and a pointer > to the *USER* event structure. The kernel would not otherwise copy > the user event structure into kernel space nor would it copy it back > to return the event. Exactly. Now, this is just what the code does at the moment, only slightly differently. In the scheme above, every "registration", via kqueuectl, copies in (filter, fd, ev), and then the kernel additionally copies in (data, flags), as those are also input parameters. So far, this turns out to be one more element than the current structure. When returning data, the kernel does a copyout of (data, flags) to the saved event structure, and then copies out the pointer to the structure. This saves one copy over what I have now. In total, this comes out equal to just copying (data,flags,ident,filter). The only difference that I can see is that with the scheme above, the user-level code must keep the data in the same location, which may not be ideal for some applications. It also binds the implementation between user and kernel a little tighter than I would like. Looking at it another way, I use (event/filter) as a capability descriptor to user space rather than a pointer. It seems that if you simply had (void *udata) field to the kevent structure, then it would be easy for you to implement your method above. Then specific filters (which understand the layout of the structure that *uevent points to) could be written access to extended data: struct user_event { int priority; void (*dispatch)(struct event *ev); int thread; struct kevent { int fd; short filter; short flags; long data; void *uevent; } } How about that? The kernel only cares about `struct kevent'. It won't touch the 'uevent' pointer at all. In theory, you could use the `data' field as a pointer, but for uniformity I'd rather just add one more field. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 21:59:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D587437B9ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:59:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16627 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:03:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA35216 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:59:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A4137B719 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:58:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.226.229.134]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5B44 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:57:17 -0400 Message-ID: <38ED6AED.7A4E39D0@asme.org> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:58:21 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: No nawk ?? (was Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh) References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems like the tendency is turning in favor of switching to tcsh... I'm gonna regret this but ...while people are in this discussion may I bring again the nawk vs gawk discussion? nawk has it's roots in the real UNIX, is under a liberal license, is maintained by one of the guys that invented UNIX, and is not as bloated and buggy as gawk. I understand it has less features than gawk, but if OpenBSD could live without those I don't see why we can't. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22: 4: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D401A37BAEB for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16658 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:07:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35236 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:04:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EC337B8EF for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44606; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:07:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:07:23 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? (was Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh) Message-ID: <20000407000723.M80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <38ED6AED.7A4E39D0@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <38ED6AED.7A4E39D0@asme.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:58:21PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > It seems like the tendency is turning in favor of switching to tcsh... > > I'm gonna regret this but ...while people are in this discussion may I > bring again the nawk vs gawk discussion? > > nawk has it's roots in the real UNIX, is under a liberal license, is > maintained by one of the guys that invented UNIX, and is not as bloated > and buggy as gawk. > > I understand it has less features than gawk, but if OpenBSD could live > without those I don't see why we can't. Go for it. While I'm on the subject, I vote for getting rid of csh and replacing it with tcsh as well. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:10:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5803C37BF8F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16697 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:14:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35262 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:10:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BD837BD46; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22411; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:10:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38ED6DDA.3771B1A5@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:10:50 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: Nate Williams , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062121.PAA24162@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062150.PAA24400@nomad.yogotech.com> <20000406150728.A25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > > > is useful. > > > > It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh > > provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? > > Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history > substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown > that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has > adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. ^No one^Only Wes^ > > > I am also tired of explaining to Linux users why our /bin/csh doesn't > > > have as nice a UI as tcsh. > > > > That's a *really* bad reason to bring in csh, and you know it. > > No I don't know it. You obvioulsy haven't had to fight to keep research > labs using FreeBSD over Linux. Is it really that hard to 'pkg_add /cdrom/packages/shells/tcsh*' ? Add it to the default system, just don't REPLACE /bin/csh with it. Make it root's default shell, even. > > PicoBSD is just *one* of the many, many, many uses for small embedded > > system. > > List them. These small embedded system developers can grab the old csh > sources from the Attic and import them into their own source tree. Oh, yeah, that's a great tack. > > > As would Tcsh. > > > > If both are adequate, choose the smaller of the two since it benefits > > more folks that way. ;) > > I dissagree. ;) Perhaps a poll? > > > > The need is our root's shell is crappy. > > > > I disagree, but what's stopping you from using tcsh as root's shell? > > It isn't part of the base system. So solve that problem without creating a bunch more. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:10:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7695837B5ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16705 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:14:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35276 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:10:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3128837B5ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA93968; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Exactly. Now, this is just what the code does at the moment, only :slightly differently. In the scheme above, every "registration", :via kqueuectl, copies in (filter, fd, ev), and then the kernel :additionally copies in (data, flags), as those are also input parameters. :So far, this turns out to be one more element than the current structure. : :When returning data, the kernel does a copyout of (data, flags) to :the saved event structure, and then copies out the pointer to the :structure. This saves one copy over what I have now. : :In total, this comes out equal to just copying (data,flags,ident,filter). : :The only difference that I can see is that with the scheme above, :the user-level code must keep the data in the same location, which :may not be ideal for some applications. It also binds the implementation :between user and kernel a little tighter than I would like. No, you're missing the point... where did the 'user data' go in my second scheme? There's no field for it anymore, and that's because the user data structure pointer you pass to the kernel is the SAME one that is returned. In the first scheme you are copying data to an arbitrary user structure, the user structure itself cannot represent any user-data because there is no relationship between the address of the structure that was passed and the address of the structure the copyout occured to. The whole point of this is to be able to associate arbitrary data with the event. In your scheme there is no way to do that (and using the descriptor is not a good idea for all the reasons I outlined before). In this scheme you can associate as much data as you want with the event. I don't understand your comment about 'binding the implementation'. No such thing is occuring. Sure, the user structure has to stay around.. that's not a big deal, it's how aio works. It certainly does not restrict your options at all, since you need meta-data to control handling of the event anyway. The meta-data might as well be integrated into the structure because if it isn't you have to implement it separately anyway, and you gain absolutely no advantage whatsoever doing that. :Looking at it another way, I use (event/filter) as a capability :descriptor to user space rather than a pointer. It seems that if :you simply had (void *udata) field to the kevent structure, :then it would be easy for you to implement your method above. Then :specific filters (which understand the layout of the structure :that *uevent points to) could be written access to extended data: Yes and no. The problem is that there is no room for extension to (for example), handle a direct threads, signal, or function dispatch when you do things that way. By creating a base user structure which is not copied to the kernel and contains sufficient reserved fields to extend the kernel functionality, you wind up keeping the syscall API compatible with future additions. : : struct user_event { : int priority; : void (*dispatch)(struct event *ev); : int thread; : struct kevent { : int fd; : short filter; : short flags; : long data; : void *uevent; : } : } : :How about that? The kernel only cares about `struct kevent'. :It won't touch the 'uevent' pointer at all. In theory, you :could use the `data' field as a pointer, but for uniformity :I'd rather just add one more field. :-- :Jonathan I'm not sure what you are getting at here... you are trying to maintain the copyin/copyout semantics just so the user program doesn't have to keep the original event structure around after queueing the event? That doesn't make much sense, the user program has to keep some state around anyway, making that state the original event structure makes things a whole lot easier then forcing the user program to come up with its own scheme to store the state separately. All you are doing with the copyin/copyout scheme is forcing the user program to become unnecessarily complex. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:16:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B4737B5ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:16:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16744 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35292 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:16:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D32737C237 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA44895; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:19:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:19:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000407001929.N80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070340.UAA93335@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070340.UAA93335@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I won't analyze this too much, since I think that with Matt's next reply, we moved much closer to an agreement. But I wanted to comment on a few things: On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:40:19PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > Consider a program that is linked against three or four third party > libraries... for example, consider a program linked against the X11 > libraries. > > Now lets say that the X11 libraries are multi-threaded and want to use > the kernel queue mechanism to handle events asynchronously in the > user space of the program using the library. > > It is not possible for the X11 libraries to do this if they happen to use > a different dispatch mechanism then your main loop uses. In fact, if you > look at how X (and other non-embedded subsystems) are organized, it is > precisely this problem that leads to an inability to scale their > interfaces. i.e. you can't use your neat cool event mechanism if you > have to call another library's code that serves as the main loop for your > program rather then you being able to serve as the main loop for your > program. My vision in this scenario is that each library will create it's own kqueue, and register the events that it is interested in within that kqueue. This way there is no conflict between events registered by a library, and those registered by the main program. (recall that the uniqifier for an event within a kqueue is (ident/filter). The libraries then either run in their own thread, and register their thread with the main process, _or_ they register the kq descriptor with the main process, and the process calls the library when there is an event pending. main code: poll( bunch of kq's ) call_library(kq) library: event = kevent(kq, ....) > /* > * Module implements an asynchronous write with timeout. > */ > somemodule_messing_with_some_tcp_connection(struct manage *m) > { > setdispatch(m->fd, m, module_write, priority, EVENT_WRITE); > setdispatch(m->fd, m, module_read, priority, EVENT_READ); > /* returns here */ > } > > module_write(int fd, struct manage *m, int r) > { > issues write and either clears the dispatch function > or allows it to remain, depending. > } > > module_read(int fd, struct manage *m, int r) > { > issues read, deals with read data. > } As a matter of fact, this pretty closely matches a project that I'm working on. What's missing here is the definition of setdispatch() and dispatch(). I see these as being: setdispatch(fd, m, function, priority, filter) { kq = module_kq(m); save_info(fd, filter, m, function, priority, ....) kevent(kq, fd, filter, ...) } dispatch() { (fd, filter, data) = fetch_event(kq) (fcn, m, pri) = retrieve_info(kq, fd, filter) fcn(m, fd, r, data) } Note that the only difference is that this forces the user to keep a (fd/filter) --> udata mapping table; I agree that by allowing this pointer to be passed to/from the kernel, it can save the application some lookup time. > Notice a couple of things? Like for example the above code is > completely independant of any other module or library. It does not > require a central loop to read events nor does it have to use the > same support library that some other library might use to implement > event handling. But only if the event dispatch and user data > ('m' in this case, which the kernel does not interpret but simply > passes to the event handler) are directly supported by the kernel. In essence, you seem to be arguing for a dispatch() mechanism in the kernel, which allows functions to be registered, and the kernel makes a direct callback. Without this, you still have to have a user-level dispatcher, which pulls events off a queue and then does the dispatch. However, the mechanism here isn't designed to be a dispatch function, although it doesn't preclude later implementation of one either. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:21:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFFB837B9ED for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16770 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:24:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35315 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1A437C150 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.cdrom.com [204.216.28.153]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA32273; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA04662; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:20:08 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Peter Wemm Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000406222008.A4617@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000407004719.D8E0B1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000407004719.D8E0B1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au>; from peter@netplex.com.au on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 05:47:19PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 05:47:19PM -0700, Peter Wemm wrote: > One other thing.. src/bin/csh appears to have large parts that are a > derivative of tcsh! (since I don't have the sccs files I can't be certain, It is not derived from tcsh, but *is* the current Tcsh back then. From the SCCS log of csh.c (s.csh.c converted to csh.c,v) -- see rev. 5.21: RCS file: csh.c,v Working file: csh.c head: 8.4 branch: locks: strict access list: symbolic names: keyword substitution: kv total revisions: 65; selected revisions: 65 description: ---------------------------- revision 8.4 date: 1995/04/29 13:09:04; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +8 -9 Fixes from Chris Demetriou and Charles Hannum ---------------------------- revision 8.3 date: 1995/03/22 14:12:40; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +38 -21 Changes from Charles Hannum (mycroft@netbsd.org) to use POSIX signals ---------------------------- revision 8.2 date: 1993/10/12 20:42:26; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +32 -0 Kill foreground process group upon exit in phup() ---------------------------- revision 8.1 date: 1993/05/31 16:41:29; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +5 -5 4.4BSD snapshot (revision 8.1); add 1993 to copyright ---------------------------- revision 5.38 date: 1993/05/22 19:06:18; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +9 -9 Fixed gcc -Wall warnings ---------------------------- revision 5.37 date: 1992/07/19 11:46:23; author: marc; state: Exp; lines: +13 -2 check in for Marc by TK ---------------------------- revision 5.36 date: 1992/05/06 16:29:59; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +8 -2 check PATH for relative pathnames when running as root (should probably only check for "." - marc) ---------------------------- revision 5.35 date: 1992/03/02 00:13:12; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +7 -2 Fixed and documented $histfile ---------------------------- revision 5.34 date: 1992/02/05 16:30:05; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +31 -12 Use vis(3) to print unprintable characters ---------------------------- revision 5.33 date: 1991/11/06 16:09:26; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +20 -2 Added support for displaying non-printable characters ---------------------------- revision 5.32 date: 1991/11/04 18:21:55; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +3 -0 Onintr would reset SIGINT if found in /etc/csh.{cshrc,login} ---------------------------- revision 5.31 date: 1991/10/28 21:27:49; author: leres; state: Exp; lines: +15 -14 Fix gcc "bodyless for/while" warnings. ---------------------------- revision 5.30 date: 1991/10/27 16:01:10; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 Loops were broken again. (Michael Schroeder's fix) ---------------------------- revision 5.29 date: 1991/08/30 21:23:38; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 Bugfix for loops in aliases. ---------------------------- revision 5.28 date: 1991/07/22 11:46:41; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 comment typos ---------------------------- revision 5.27 date: 1991/07/19 17:30:22; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +121 -48 stdio based version; brace glob fix; builtin prototypes ---------------------------- revision 5.26 date: 1991/06/08 17:08:34; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +6 -0 More prototype fixes, Removed TERMIOS define ---------------------------- revision 5.25 date: 1991/06/08 12:20:07; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +16 -6 include file pass, csh.h no longer include every .h in the system rename sigmast_t to sigset_t to match signal.h; minor pointer cleanups ---------------------------- revision 5.24 date: 1991/06/07 20:57:09; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +26 -25 static function prototypes ---------------------------- revision 5.23 date: 1991/06/07 11:13:13; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +10 -4 rename all the files (they weren't going to diff anyway) add function prototypes for extern functions, decls.h -> extern.h delete btell function, VFORK #define, lots of other minor cleanups ---------------------------- revision 5.22 date: 1991/06/05 16:33:14; author: christos; state: Exp; lines: +0 -8 Removed -DTELL V6 compatibility flag ---------------------------- revision 5.21 date: 1991/06/04 13:31:08; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +932 -743 new version from Christos -- 8-bit clean, lots of bug fixes massive changes, including a pass of indent. ---------------------------- revision 5.20 date: 1991/04/04 18:17:30; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +13 -6 new copyright; att/bsd/shared ---------------------------- revision 5.19 date: 1991/04/01 17:37:06; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +7 -7 setexit -> setjmp, reset -> longjmp, isdir() -> S_ISDIR, ANSI Prof. Graham requested semantic changes to #defines in sh.h, removing the last vestiges of the PWB/V6 shell ---------------------------- revision 5.18 date: 1991/03/14 12:26:00; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +2 -2 copy -> bcopy (more than vax and tahoe now) ---------------------------- revision 5.17 date: 1991/02/25 08:11:49; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +2 -1 ANSI fixes ---------------------------- revision 5.16 date: 1991/02/25 07:21:56; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +3 -1 ANSI fixess ---------------------------- revision 5.15 date: 1990/11/09 15:50:07; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +13 -13 remove vestiges of AT&T shell ---------------------------- revision 5.14 date: 1990/06/30 16:09:29; author: marc; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 set proc in pgrp before setting terminal ---------------------------- revision 5.13 date: 1989/09/24 16:49:12; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +3 -1 POSIX signals ---------------------------- revision 5.12 date: 1989/08/14 18:14:15; author: karels; state: Exp; lines: +0 -18 we've only got one tty discipline now. ---------------------------- revision 5.11 date: 1989/05/08 12:58:09; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 file system reorg and pathnames.h ---------------------------- revision 5.10 date: 1989/04/02 11:57:52; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +1 -2 rest of pathnames ---------------------------- revision 5.9 date: 1989/03/05 22:01:13; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 add search path names ---------------------------- revision 5.8 date: 1989/02/15 11:06:31; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +19 -1 use pathname include files; remove IIASA commands; remove newgrp command; add globall .cshrc, .login, and .logout files; minor cleanups ---------------------------- revision 5.7 date: 1988/12/30 12:09:57; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +9 -9 add -m flag for su ---------------------------- revision 5.6 date: 1988/05/19 15:38:34; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 install C version of _doprnt ---------------------------- revision 5.5 date: 1988/01/20 11:55:40; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +4 -0 Bug involving csh and the "source" command; 4.3BSD/bin/115 ---------------------------- revision 5.4 date: 1987/06/25 09:15:07; author: bostic; state: Exp; lines: +5 -4 csh long/int mismatches; bug report 4.3BSD/bin/45 ---------------------------- revision 5.3 date: 1986/03/29 07:16:36; author: lepreau; state: Exp; lines: +3 -0 lint ---------------------------- revision 5.2 date: 1985/06/06 13:10:57; author: edward; state: Exp; lines: +3 -3 cleaning up after bozos ---------------------------- revision 5.1 date: 1985/06/04 10:54:40; author: dist; state: Exp; lines: +8 -2 Add copyright ---------------------------- revision 4.23 date: 1985/03/24 17:09:33; author: edward; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 check for set group id as well as setuid ---------------------------- revision 4.22 date: 1985/03/19 17:54:38; author: mckusick; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 load history after sourcing .login file in case .login sets history variable ---------------------------- revision 4.21 date: 1985/01/16 10:29:03; author: edward; state: Exp; lines: +1 -3 can't use environ SHELL as variable shell ---------------------------- revision 4.20 date: 1984/12/13 14:41:53; author: edward; state: Exp; lines: +72 -87 performance ---------------------------- revision 4.19 date: 1984/09/07 15:25:00; author: ralph; state: Exp; lines: +13 -7 added -b flag to force next arg as shell input file for setuid scripts. ---------------------------- revision 4.18 date: 1984/08/31 09:30:33; author: ralph; state: Exp; lines: +23 -27 use new signal calls instead of compatibility routines. ---------------------------- revision 4.17 date: 1984/07/06 22:42:12; author: sam; state: Exp; lines: +6 -2 fix up profiling; correct last hack ---------------------------- revision 4.16 date: 1984/07/06 21:13:45; author: sam; state: Exp; lines: +20 -20 restore prior formatting ---------------------------- revision 4.15 date: 1984/06/06 16:51:07; author: layer; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 create .history with mode 666 not 777 (should use umask, too, but it doesn't) ---------------------------- revision 4.14 date: 1983/11/02 14:52:35; author: layer; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 is called with -c, then don't print the prompt ---------------------------- revision 4.13 date: 1983/11/02 13:45:33; author: layer; state: Exp; lines: +23 -15 move the prompt printing stuff to a function (for the filename completion stuff) ---------------------------- revision 4.12 date: 1983/06/11 16:48:49; author: sam; state: Exp; lines: +15 -15 different approach, try signal compatibility package ---------------------------- revision 4.11 date: 1983/06/10 23:58:43; author: sam; state: Exp; lines: +18 -17 new signals; no libjobs; still loses SIGINT by getting it masked sometimes, but we check it in before we lose something ---------------------------- revision 4.10 date: 1983/02/03 09:12:39; author: sam; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 use high precision time calls ---------------------------- revision 4.9 date: 1982/06/06 13:06:15; author: mckusick; state: Exp; lines: +3 -1 fix to allow shell scripts to run in background ---------------------------- revision 4.8 date: 1982/03/28 18:24:45; author: wnj; state: Exp; lines: +1 -1 signal handling bug fix ---------------------------- revision 4.7 date: 1982/02/17 14:33:00; author: mckusic; state: Exp; lines: +15 -11 only save history if "savehist" is specified ---------------------------- revision 4.6 date: 1982/02/12 15:28:50; author: mckusic; state: Exp; lines: +4 -1 save history if exceed cpu time or file size limits in shell ---------------------------- revision 4.5 date: 1981/11/22 15:38:06; author: mckusic; state: Exp; lines: +2 -1 fix bug with HIST not being reset correctly ---------------------------- revision 4.4 date: 1981/11/19 21:03:32; author: mckusic; state: Exp; lines: +55 -16 add ``history -h >file'' and ``source -h file'' to implement history save and restore. ---------------------------- revision 4.3 date: 1981/08/18 17:00:18; author: mckusic; state: Exp; lines: +24 -4 save history in ~/.history at logout and restore at login ---------------------------- revision 4.2 date: 1981/03/11 18:51:44; author: wnj; state: Exp; lines: +7 -1 minor bug fixes ---------------------------- revision 4.1 date: 1980/10/09 12:40:21; author: bill; state: Exp; Initial revision ---------------------------- ============================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:29:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88AF937C06C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16840 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:32:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35361 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:29:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BE537C06C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA39583; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070528.WAA39583@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406165625.A539@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Apr 6, 2000 04:56:25 pm" To: obrien@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD != ObrienBSD, you've already lost the battle, you > ^^^^^^ > That's "O'Brien" -- get it right! > :r !finger obrien@freefall.freebsd.org [freefall.freebsd.org] Login: obrien Name: David E. O'Brien ^^^^^^ Live with it... Unix has to :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:31: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB6D37B8BB for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16852 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:34:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35382 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:31:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD1837C208 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:30:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA94119; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:30:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:30:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070530.WAA94119@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070340.UAA93335@apollo.backplane.com> <20000407001929.N80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG P.S. please excuse me for getting so excitement, I think you know where I'm coming from and my last reply intimated otherwise. I really do think that passing/returning a pointer rather then doing a copyin/copyout is the way to go, and this is from serious experience in this area. I have nearly 15 years of experience doing this sort of thing in real life embedded systems. I am going to put up a URL for a program module from one of my embedded projects to demonstrate the idea in real-life application code. Keep in mind that the source file below is from an embedded application, not a kernel. http://www.backplane.com/FreeBSD4/showoff1.c Please bring this up and search for 'setdispatch'. Now the model this embedded system is using is an asynchronous software interrupt dispatch model, which I think is the best thing since sliced bread but is something that would not be easy to implement in UNIX. What I would like you to look at is the use of a user data structure. Check out the setop3() call just before second the setdispatch() call, then go down to the NetReadInt() procedure itself where the pointer to this structure is passed (by the kernel) to the dispatch function as 'arg'. This is the power of being able to either pass a user data pointer, or being able to supply it inherently by passing a pointer containing other information but extensible as a user structure, which is later returned. If you have time you should look at the code in general... again, remember that I am not advocating kernel-aided dispatch via software interrupts, I am just using it as a demonstration of what our Goals should be. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E57337BD2E for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16883 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:38:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35399 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:35:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFE537BD2E for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA45522; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:38:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:38:19 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000407003819.O80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:10:32PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > No, you're missing the point... where did the 'user data' go in my > second scheme? There's no field for it anymore, and that's because > the user data structure pointer you pass to the kernel is the SAME > one that is returned. I haven't missed the point, note the 'struct user_data *udata' within the `kevent' structure. > In the first scheme you are copying data to an arbitrary user structure, > the user structure itself cannot represent any user-data because there > is no relationship between the address of the structure that was passed > and the address of the structure the copyout occured to. No, I'm not copying data _to_ the user structure at all. I'm just keeping the user-level pointer around so it can be used by userspace rather than forcing it to maintain an (ident/filter) mapping. > I don't understand your comment about 'binding the implementation'. > No such thing is occuring. Sure, the user structure has to stay around.. > that's not a big deal, it's how aio works. It certainly does not Yes, but that's not how this necessarily works, it isn't AIO. I can create a huge buffer to copy in 10,000 events at once, and then read events out into another buffer in chunks of 100 if I want. I don't necessarily have to, in fact I definitely *don't* want to keep the original structures around where I copied data from. > :Looking at it another way, I use (event/filter) as a capability > :descriptor to user space rather than a pointer. It seems that if > :you simply had (void *udata) field to the kevent structure, > :then it would be easy for you to implement your method above. Then > :specific filters (which understand the layout of the structure > :that *uevent points to) could be written access to extended data: > > Yes and no. The problem is that there is no room for extension to > (for example), handle a direct threads, signal, or function dispatch > when you do things that way. > > By creating a base user structure which is not copied to the kernel > and contains sufficient reserved fields to extend the kernel > functionality, you wind up keeping the syscall API compatible with > future additions. But that's essentially what I did, but I haven't defined a "base user structure" for the kernel, since it may not be needed. Recall that each filter has its own small code segment associated with it. So the "base structure" can be different for those sections of code which require it, and nonexistent for those that don't. Those filters which need a large amount of extended data can use the `udata' pointer for access to an extended structure, and those filters which don't know anything about this will still play nice. > I'm not sure what you are getting at here... you are trying to maintain > the copyin/copyout semantics just so the user program doesn't have to > keep the original event structure around after queueing the event? That > doesn't make much sense, the user program has to keep some state around > anyway, making that state the original event structure makes things > a whole lot easier then forcing the user program to come up with its > own scheme to store the state separately. All you are doing with the > copyin/copyout scheme is forcing the user program to become unnecessarily > complex. I disagree that it's complex, I think that it's amazingly simple. The difficulty is that each user program has a different idea of what state it wants to keep, what structure it needs to keep around, and what metadata is required. Rather than trying to come up with some case that will cover all requirements, I just want to come up with the bare minimum, and allow a method of extension. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:48:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB43637BDD8 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16958 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:52:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35433 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:48:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E242137C217 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA94276; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070547.WAA94276@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> <20000407003819.O80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :> I don't understand your comment about 'binding the implementation'. :> No such thing is occuring. Sure, the user structure has to stay around.. :> that's not a big deal, it's how aio works. It certainly does not : :Yes, but that's not how this necessarily works, it isn't AIO. I can :create a huge buffer to copy in 10,000 events at once, and then read :events out into another buffer in chunks of 100 if I want. I don't :necessarily have to, in fact I definitely *don't* want to keep the :original structures around where I copied data from. If you have 100 events which would you rather do: (1) Pass an array of 100 kevent structures, each 16 bytes, and have to copyout 16x100 = 1600 bytes between the kernel and user space. Or (2) Pass an array of 100 kevent pointers and have to copyout 4x100 = 400 bytes (representing 400 pointers) between the kernel and user space. I don't know about you, but I'll take #2 any day. And if I have to keep the original kevent structure I passed to the kernel around, so what? The cost is virtually nil and I'd probably wind up wasting the same amount of space (and considerably more code) with my tracking structures (indexed by the descriptor and filter id, or by udata) anyway. What I want to do is this: struct myevent { struct kevent kev; ... MY STUFF GOES HERE ... }; Then I want to pass an array of pointers to myevent's to the kernel, and have it pass an array of pointers of ready events back. Simple, straightforward, who cares if we are 'wasting' sizeof(struct kevent) space? The amount of space is zilch compared other things! -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:54:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B8E37B8BB for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:54:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17016 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:58:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35488 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:54:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5453D37BDD8; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA39643; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 6, 2000 08:10:13 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > : tcsh features. Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I was told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibilities with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would keep typing things that tcsh didn't like. It also would not grok my prompt env setting either... > > I think this is a fine thing. I don't :-) At least we agree to disagree :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:55: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A0E37C233 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17023 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:58:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35502 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:54:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D785837BF8F for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22524; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:54:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38ED7823.77127695@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:54:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Wemm Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000407004719.D8E0B1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wemm wrote: > > Incidently, I'd be interested to know how many folks actually seriously use > non-trivial csh scripts. I do, right up until 5:00 pm MST tomorrow. I'm getting in early enough at the next place to make sure something that idiotic doesn't happen. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 22:59:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17B437B920 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17061 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:03:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA35518 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:59:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559FD37B83F; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA39664; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070559.WAA39664@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000406221450.W23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> from Bill Fumerola at "Apr 6, 2000 10:14:50 pm" To: billf@chc-chimes.com (Bill Fumerola) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Cc: imp@village.org (Warner Losh), obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 08:10:13PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > > : tcsh features. > > > > I think this is a fine thing. > > Since the opposition to this seems to want to count people who said no, add > me as someone who says yes. > > I don't even use tcsh, either. So my support isn't because of some shell jihad. IMNSO people who don't use either tcsh or csh should exclude themselves from the discussion... Especially people who just say ``yes'' with no technical reasons for saying yes, your provided no supporting technical reasons for you yes :-( At least David O'Brien specifically said at the start of the thread he only wanted technical arguments for/against. Ohhh.. and this message has technical content, it's nit picking the fact that only a few people have provided technical content one way or the other, in a hope that we won't have a whole slew of me too's without the technical stuff to back it up. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:16:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467A737C255 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17222 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:19:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35555 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:16:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D09037C40C; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04714; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:10:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA97669; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:09:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070609.AAA97669@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:53:43 PDT." <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:09:22 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I was : told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibilities : with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would keep : typing things that tcsh didn't like. I noticed that tcsh used to be much less compatible with csh than it is today. Several years (1989) ago I installed it and went nuts with the subtle differences. Tried it again a little later (1991) and have been hooked ever since. The second time I tried it I didn't even notice that it was tsch, and the release notes specifically stated that much work had been done to make it BSD csh compatible. Before it felt combatible[sic] with system V csh, which I believe was a 4.1 or earlier csh (but the ethno-cyberhistorians will tell me if I'm wrong). Maybe it might be worth trying out for a few hours over the next day or two the latest tsch and see if it is still : It also would not grok my prompt env setting either... I don't recall that bug. As an experiment, I just ripped out my "if I'm running in tcsh, do xXX" code and it seemed to look just like csh. Complete with the whacked out alaises that I have for changing the prompt based on the dir I'm in. : I don't :-) At least we agree to disagree :-) True. But at least we're talking about what we disagree on. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:27:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EC537C32D for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:27:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17400 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:31:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35581 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:27:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC94037C210 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:26:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39745; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <38ED6DDA.3771B1A5@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Apr 6, 2000 11:10:50 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [CC trimmed back to -arch] > David O'Brien wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > > > > is useful. > > > > > > It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh > > > provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? > > > > Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history > > substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown > > that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has > > adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. > > ^No one^Only Wes^ ^s^s and Rod^, who really love the !-7:9-11 !-6:2 As it can do things you can't do with the stupid simplistic !-6:4-9 of other shells and probably often look at the output of the !-7:5 command to glue a new long complex command togeather out of tokens from many previous commands. For the csh impared: Only Wes and Rod has adopted the bazzar Csh history substition syntax., who really love the bazzar "!^?-" history substitution. As it can do things you can't do with the stupid simplistic Emacs or Vi -style line editing of other shells and probably often look at the output of the history command to glue a new long complex command togeather out of tokens from many previous commands. IMHO, If you don't use these features of csh you might as well run bash... :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:30:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C5B37C23C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17424 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:34:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35598 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:30:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAD8B37BA18 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA47221; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:33:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:33:58 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code Message-ID: <20000407013358.P80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> <20000407003819.O80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070547.WAA94276@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004070547.WAA94276@apollo.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:47:19PM -0700, Matthew Dillon wrote: > : > :> I don't understand your comment about 'binding the implementation'. > :> No such thing is occuring. Sure, the user structure has to stay around.. > :> that's not a big deal, it's how aio works. It certainly does not > : > :Yes, but that's not how this necessarily works, it isn't AIO. I can > :create a huge buffer to copy in 10,000 events at once, and then read > :events out into another buffer in chunks of 100 if I want. I don't > :necessarily have to, in fact I definitely *don't* want to keep the > :original structures around where I copied data from. > > If you have 100 events which would you rather do: > > (1) Pass an array of 100 kevent structures, each 16 bytes, and > have to copyout 16x100 = 1600 bytes between the kernel and > user space. > > Or > > (2) Pass an array of 100 kevent pointers and have to copyout > 4x100 = 400 bytes (representing 400 pointers) between the > kernel and user space. Yes, I agree. However, please note that the numbers aren't quite this good. You have to copy out both the data and flag values to user space, along with the pointer to the structure you chnaged. So this is about 12x100. Also, since the flag/data values are now all over memory, you can't aggregate your calls to copyout(). > I don't know about you, but I'll take #2 any day. And if I have > to keep the original kevent structure I passed to the kernel around, > so what? The cost is virtually nil and I'd probably wind up wasting > the same amount of space (and considerably more code) with my > tracking structures (indexed by the descriptor and filter id, or > by udata) anyway. > > What I want to do is this: > > struct myevent { > struct kevent kev; > ... MY STUFF GOES HERE ... > }; > > Then I want to pass an array of pointers to myevent's to the kernel, > and have it pass an array of pointers of ready events back. Simple, > straightforward, who cares if we are 'wasting' sizeof(struct kevent) > space? The amount of space is zilch compared other things! Okay, I believe we can reach consensus here. What I'll do is essentially keep the current `struct kevent' as it is now. However, a flag will be added to the kqueue() call which establishes the kq, to indicate whether the arrays being passed/returned to kevent() should be pointers to `struct kevent', or the actual structure itself. This will allow exactly what you've outlined above, as well as what I currently have. I understand what you're saying, but I feel more confortable with the copyin/copyout of the structure, it just feels simpler to use, not to mention debug. Anyway, it's 1:30am here, I think I'll sleep on it now. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:40:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6210037C210 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17513 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:43:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35624 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:40:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10ED737C114 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39777; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070640.XAA39777@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070609.AAA97669@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 7, 2000 00:09:22 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [CC: trimmed to -arch] > In message <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > : Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I was > : told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibilities > : with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would keep > : typing things that tcsh didn't like. > > I noticed that tcsh used to be much less compatible with csh than it > is today. Several years (1989) ago I installed it and went nuts with > the subtle differences. Tried it again a little later (1991) and have > been hooked ever since. The second time I tried it I didn't even Last time I tried it was in 1993, after the FreeBSD project started, well after you had ``been hooked'' :-) > notice that it was tsch, and the release notes specifically stated > that much work had been done to make it BSD csh compatible. Before it > felt combatible[sic] with system V csh, which I believe was a 4.1 or > earlier csh (but the ethno-cyberhistorians will tell me if I'm wrong). It still felt like sysVish csh to me in '93... > > Maybe it might be worth trying out for a few hours over the next day > or two the latest tsch and see if it is still I'll give you the benifit of a doubt... ports on the way to my scratch box incase it does something stupid with one of my wild command line History Substitutions and decides to newfs/rm/dd the wrong things... > : It also would not grok my prompt env setting either... > > I don't recall that bug. As an experiment, I just ripped out my "if > I'm running in tcsh, do xXX" code and it seemed to look just like > csh. Complete with the whacked out alaises that I have for changing > the prompt based on the dir I'm in. > > : I don't :-) At least we agree to disagree :-) > > True. But at least we're talking about what we disagree on. And not just doing the me too thing all the others seem to enjoy doing during these types of threads... (Sorry to beat this issue so much, but I've now seen at least 6 of them with 0 technical content, one even asking if his vote still counted... -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:50: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A5E37BAFA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17613 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:53:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35642 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:50:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187D837C06C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39802; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 6, 2000 08:10:13 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [CC: trimmed to -arch] > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > : tcsh features. I just had to go look to see if I could find some stats as the 10% number seemed wrong to me the first time. From Freefall, what I would call a pretty good representation of hard core BSD users :-) we have the following stats: freefall:rgrimes {107} ypcat passwd | grep bin/csh | wc 44 163 2965 freefall:rgrimes {108} ^cs^tcs 115 406 9409 Ahhh... 44/115 != 0.10 == 0.38 or 38%. David's statistic is off by a factor of 3.8 :-( -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:51:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8705B37C278 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17640 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:55:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35664 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:51:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E995B37C278 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:51:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04837; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:51:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA98146; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:50:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070650.AAA98146@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:49:44 PDT." <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:50:44 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : I just had to go look to see if I could find some stats as the 10% number : seemed wrong to me the first time. From Freefall, what I would call a : pretty good representation of hard core BSD users :-) we have the following : stats: : : freefall:rgrimes {107} ypcat passwd | grep bin/csh | wc : 44 163 2965 : freefall:rgrimes {108} ^cs^tcs : 115 406 9409 : : Ahhh... 44/115 != 0.10 == 0.38 or 38%. David's statistic is off by a : factor of 3.8 :-( I don't know how many people do the same trick I do, but I have my login shell default to csh and then do Ugly Magic[tm] in my .cshrc file if I can find a tcsh to run instead. This lets me login to machines that don't have tcsh on them, but share yppasswd database with others that do. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:53:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C682037C114 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17669 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:57:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35677 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:53:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF27737C06C for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:53:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04849; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:53:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA98177; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:52:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070652.AAA98177@harmony.village.org> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:50:44 MDT." <200004070650.AAA98146@harmony.village.org> References: <200004070650.AAA98146@harmony.village.org> <200004070649.XAA39802@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:52:44 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004070650.AAA98146@harmony.village.org> Warner Losh writes: : I don't know how many people do the same trick I do, but I have my : login shell default to csh and then do Ugly Magic[tm] in my .cshrc : file if I can find a tcsh to run instead. This lets me login to : machines that don't have tcsh on them, but share yppasswd database : with others that do. Hmmm. It would appear that I do show up in the tcsh camp based on finger. Well, that's something anyway. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Apr 6 23:54:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693DA37BCAA for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17680 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:58:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35691 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:54:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (216-200-29-190.snj0.flashcom.net [216.200.29.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7E437C233 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA36910; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <200004070651.XAA36910@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Warner Losh Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:50:44 MDT." <200004070650.AAA98146@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:51:48 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Me, I just use tcsh over here and every else that I go to 8) Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@rah.star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0: 0: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B4137C262 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17755 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:03:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA35707 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:59:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC95837C262; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA39846; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070658.XAA39846@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070649.XAA00403@mass.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Apr 6, 2000 11:49:14 pm" To: msmith@freebsd.org (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > > > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > > > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > > > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > > > : tcsh features. > > > > Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I was > > told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibilities > > with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would keep > > typing things that tcsh didn't like. > > > > It also would not grok my prompt env setting either... > > Substantiate or be disregarded. See other email to Warner, I've already stated I would install the tcsh port and give it a spin. We'll see how many minutes/hours/days it takes me before I toss it this time... (It will be tossed, even if it is 100% compatibile, it's got features I don't want to contaminate my extremly OS independent fingers with by using it too much...) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0: 3:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1AE37C06C for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17811 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:06:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35727 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:03:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24FC37C243 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA04893; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:02:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA98243; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:01:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004070701.BAA98243@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:25:54 PDT." <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 01:01:45 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : [CC trimmed back to -arch] : > David O'Brien wrote: : > > : > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: : > > > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that : > > > > is useful. : > > > : > > > It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh : > > > provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? : > > : > > Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history : > > substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown : > > that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has : > > adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. : > : > ^No one^Only Wes^ : ^s^s and Rod^, ^Rod^and imp I regularly use things like "rm !ls:$" or "cvs commit !vi:*" in my everyday world of tcsh. I can't type into a ksh window and my coworkers make fun of me for it :-). rm foo.{a,b,c,d}{a,b,c,d} cvs !! cvs commit !!:2-$ also has been known to cross the tips fo my fingers. And on Rare Occasions, oddities such as !!:s/foo/bar/g !ls:1-3:s/.c/.cc/ But I've never quite got the knack for using the "basename" of a file since I trouble recalling the exact syntax. And all of this in tcsh, where I also do unnatural things with my command line history. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0: 4:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9EBB37B8BB for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:04:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17837 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:07:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35741 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:04:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 664) id 3CC9737B941; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:03:06 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? (was Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh) Message-ID: <20000407000306.A80882@hub.freebsd.org> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org References: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> <38ED6AED.7A4E39D0@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <38ED6AED.7A4E39D0@asme.org>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:58:21PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:58:21PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > It seems like the tendency is turning in favor of switching to tcsh... One war at at time please. > I'm gonna regret this but ...while people are in this discussion may I > bring again the nawk vs gawk discussion? I've considered it and started contribing it a while ago. There was something in ``make world'' that did not work with nawk. But I don't remember what it was, or if it would be easy to fix. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0:11:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7FC37B941 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17934 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:15:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35761 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:11:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D6437B8BB; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39895; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070711.AAA39895@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070704.AAA00502@mass.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Apr 7, 2000 00:04:22 am" To: msmith@freebsd.org (Mike Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [CC: trimmed to -arch again] > > [CC: trimmed to -arch] > > > In message <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > > > : highly irritated at root's shell being one of poor UI. Of the [t]csh > > > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > > > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > > > : tcsh features. > > > > I just had to go look to see if I could find some stats as the 10% number > > seemed wrong to me the first time. From Freefall, what I would call a > > pretty good representation of hard core BSD users :-) we have the following > > stats: > > > > freefall:rgrimes {107} ypcat passwd | grep bin/csh | wc > > 44 163 2965 > > freefall:rgrimes {108} ^cs^tcs > > 115 406 9409 > > > > Ahhh... 44/115 != 0.10 == 0.38 or 38%. David's statistic is off by a > > factor of 3.8 :-( > > Ah, statistics. However, we know that of the former category, 15 have > never logged in and thus probably haven't wanted to change their shell. > (There are others that have wanted to change away in the past but can't > because of the YP setup). OTOH, only 13 tcsh users have never logged in. > So, in adjusted figures that's 29/102 or 28%. Your numbers are more than > 33% overstated. 8) The 13 tcsh users probably specifically requested tcsh or they would have ended up with csh by default, so here are some more stats for you... (44-15)/115=0.25 or 25%, so my number was actually 35/28=1.52 or 52% over stated. The original 10% was still 250% understated. I'll take stats 52% in error over 250%, or 2.5/0.52=4.8 times more accurate any day. :-) :-) :-) (I can use and abuse them just as good as the next guy... unless he happens to be the author of the book by the similiar name...). -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0:15: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5869237B532 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17975 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:18:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35780 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:14:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE2E37C246 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22731; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:14:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38ED8AF4.71A04819@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 01:15:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > [CC trimmed back to -arch] > > David O'Brien wrote: > > > > > > Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history > > > substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown > > > that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has > > > adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. > > > > ^No one^Only Wes^ > ^s^s and Rod^, > who really love the !-7:9-11 !-6:2 As it can do things you can't > do with the stupid simplistic !-6:4-9 of other shells and probably > often look at the output of the !-7:5 command to glue a new long complex > command togeather out of tokens from many previous commands. > > For the csh impared: > Only Wes and Rod has adopted the bazzar Csh history substition syntax., > who really love the bazzar "!^?-" history substitution. As it can do things > you can't do with the stupid simplistic Emacs or Vi -style line editing of > other shells and probably often look at the output of the history command to > glue a new long complex command togeather out of tokens from many previous > commands. > > IMHO, If you don't use these features of csh you might as well run bash... :-) But Rod, bash supports both of these syntaxes. ;^) My vote for keeping /bin/csh was based purely on size. Please note I am an embed-head who tends to boots tons of code off 16MB Flash parts. And yes, my current (until tomorrow) employer is a huge user of csh scripts, dumb as that is. Some of these scripts range in size up to thousands of lines. Augh! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0:27:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175F437B8BB for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18113 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:31:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35809 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:27:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay.ucb.crimea.ua (relay.ucb.crimea.ua [212.110.138.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B9AF37B8BB; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@ucb.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by relay.ucb.crimea.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3/UCB) id KAA11759; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:27:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:27:43 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: "David O'Brien" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000407102743.D99574@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> References: <20000406144502.A25177@dragon.nuxi.com> <200004062201.PAA18343@usr08.primenet.com> <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <20000406151126.C25607@dragon.nuxi.com>; from David O'Brien on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:11:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:11:26PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:01:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think putting in tcsh as csh would be putting FreeBSD in the > > same position of having a shell where script authors think they > > are using features which are available everywhere, but are > > specific to the "enhanced" shell > > Tcsh buys us *INTERACTIVE* enhancements, not scripting ones. > Why not just have both csh(1) replaced by tcsh(1), and creating csh(1) port? :-) -- Ruslan Ermilov Sysadmin and DBA of the ru@ucb.crimea.ua United Commercial Bank, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.247.647 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 0:39:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B2937BF2C for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18300 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:43:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA35830 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:39:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5A637BF2C for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA39984; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004070739.AAA39984@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070701.BAA98243@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 7, 2000 01:01:45 am" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <200004070625.XAA39745@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > : [CC trimmed back to -arch] > : > David O'Brien wrote: > : > > > : > > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 03:50:49PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > : > > > > I don't want a fully functional workstation. I want a root account that > : > > > > is useful. > : > > > > : > > > It's completely useful. It has everything you need. What does tcsh > : > > > provide you that csh doesn't provide you that is needed for root? > : > > ----- > : > > Command line completion, and something other than bazzar "!^?-" history > : > > substitution. Shell evolution (and other command line tools) have shown > : > > that either Emacs or Vi -style line editing is the way to go. No one has > : > > adopted the bazzar Csh history substitution syntax. ----- The above ----- mark what has now been shown to be FUD and should be taken with a grain of salt. I still haven't figured out the command line completion part of that statement. Is this just folks not knowing how to ``set filec'' and use the escape/^D keys?? After all BSD csh is the grandfather of the filename completion concept... If I do recall correctly tcsh's filename completion is quite different, that might drive me and others nuts :-(. > : > > : > ^No one^Only Wes^ > : ^s^s and Rod^, > ^Rod^and imp > > I regularly use things like "rm !ls:$" or "cvs commit !vi:*" in my > everyday world of tcsh. I can't type into a ksh window and my > coworkers make fun of me for it :-). > > rm foo.{a,b,c,d}{a,b,c,d} Ahh... rm foo.[ad][ad] your wasting key strokes, especially them damn shifted op's doing the {} thing :-) > cvs !! > cvs commit !!:2-$ > > also has been known to cross the tips fo my fingers. And on Rare > Occasions, oddities such as > !!:s/foo/bar/g > !ls:1-3:s/.c/.cc/ These are not odd in my book at all... and when csh's :s op is too limited it becomes a echo !! | sed sequence... > But I've never quite got the knack for using the "basename" of a file > since I trouble recalling the exact syntax. Well, it depends on what your calling basename. There are actually 4 csh substitution modifiers to deal with that stuff, hret, which are head, root, extenion and tail respectfully. And thats just how I remeber which one does what... > And all of this in tcsh, where I also do unnatural things with my > command line history. > > Warner > > -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 1:10: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A40437BBF9 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18753 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:13:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA35877 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:09:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130FD37B8DA for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA94865; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:09:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200004070809.BAA94865@apollo.backplane.com> To: Jonathan Lemon , Archie Cobbs , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RFC: kqueue API and rough code References: <200004070107.SAA97591@bubba.whistle.com> <200004070220.TAA92896@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406220454.J80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070401.VAA93492@apollo.backplane.com> <20000406234905.K80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070510.WAA93968@apollo.backplane.com> <20000407003819.O80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200004070547.WAA94276@apollo.backplane.com> <20000407013358.P80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> (1) Pass an array of 100 kevent structures, each 16 bytes, and :> have to copyout 16x100 = 1600 bytes between the kernel and :> user space. :> :> Or :> :> (2) Pass an array of 100 kevent pointers and have to copyout :> 4x100 = 400 bytes (representing 400 pointers) between the :> kernel and user space. : :Yes, I agree. However, please note that the numbers aren't quite :this good. You have to copy out both the data and flag values to :user space, along with the pointer to the structure you chnaged. :So this is about 12x100. Also, since the flag/data values are now :all over memory, you can't aggregate your calls to copyout(). True enough, but you also save userspace having to do a copy (it just leaves the structure intact), which saves on the L1 cache pollution, and the userspace program is somewhat simplified. I think performance-wise it's either a wash or the pointer method has a slight edge. copyin/copyout aren't really all that bad. Another point: Most systems are fast enough to react to events such that, typically, not many events queue up before the user process can get to them. I wouldn't count on the optimization of aggregating the copyin/copyout. :> What I want to do is this: :> :> struct myevent { :> struct kevent kev; :> ... MY STUFF GOES HERE ... :> }; :> :> Then I want to pass an array of pointers to myevent's to the kernel, :> and have it pass an array of pointers of ready events back. Simple, :> straightforward, who cares if we are 'wasting' sizeof(struct kevent) :> space? The amount of space is zilch compared other things! : :Okay, I believe we can reach consensus here. What I'll do is essentially :keep the current `struct kevent' as it is now. However, a flag will be :added to the kqueue() call which establishes the kq, to indicate whether :the arrays being passed/returned to kevent() should be pointers to :`struct kevent', or the actual structure itself. This will allow exactly :what you've outlined above, as well as what I currently have. : :I understand what you're saying, but I feel more confortable with :the copyin/copyout of the structure, it just feels simpler to use, :not to mention debug. : :Anyway, it's 1:30am here, I think I'll sleep on it now. :-) :-- :Jonathan Uff. Well, ok I guess. It will give people a choice and make performance testing more interesting. I think ultimately people will opt for convenience - which I think will end up being the pointer method. We'll see. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 2: 0:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4320D37BA87 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19626 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:04:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA36030 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:00:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gidgate.gid.co.uk (gid.co.uk [194.32.164.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B009537B8D7; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rb@gidgate.gid.co.uk) Received: (from rb@localhost) by gidgate.gid.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18817; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:00:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from rb) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> X-Sender: rbmail@gid.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 10:00:12 +0100 To: obrien@freebsd.org From: Bob Bishop Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000406134916.A23265@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, At 13:49 06/04/00 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh >with tcsh. [etc] On principle, please don't do it. I'd go so far as to vote for having /bin/sh as root's default shell. If people want to use whacky shells and set fire to their ass they are free to do so, but I seriously doubt the wisdom of encouraging them. -- Bob Bishop +44 118 977 4017 rb@gid.co.uk fax +44 118 989 4254 (0800-1800 UK) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 4: 0:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C636937B7D5 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 04:00:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21500 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:03:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA36346 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:00:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mppsystems.com (mppsystems.com [208.210.148.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9750037B5CB; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 03:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mpp@mppsystems.com) Received: (from mpp@localhost) by mppsystems.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA48636; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:59:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mpp) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 05:59:28 -0500 From: Mike Pritchard To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Warner Losh , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000407055928.A48528@mppsystems.com> References: <200004070210.UAA95308@harmony.village.org> <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200004070553.WAA39643@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:53:43PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:53:43PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only because > > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the extra > > : tcsh features. > > Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I was > told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibilities > with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would keep > typing things that tcsh didn't like. Sorry to add to a thread that I should probably stay away from...but... Having used csh for almost as long as Rod has, I can sometimes tell within 10 minutes after logging in if I'm using csh or tcsh. There are differences. I haven't tried a recent tcsh port in a while, but since there is a lot of discussion about this, I think that we should hold off on any changes. Just to see if my point is still valid, I think I'll go install tcsh and start using it as my shell for a while. -Mike -- Mike Pritchard mpp@FreeBSD.org or mpp@mppsystems.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 6:25:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECDA37B7BF for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24277 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:29:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA36527 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:25:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BF937B7BF for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA40640; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004071325.GAA40640@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <20000407055928.A48528@mppsystems.com> from Mike Pritchard at "Apr 7, 2000 05:59:28 am" To: mpp@mppsystems.com (Mike Pritchard) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [CC: whacked back to -arch] > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:53:43PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > : users I know, only about 10% use csh over tcsh and that is only bec= ause > > > : csh is in the base system. Those people would not even notice the = extra > > > : tcsh features. > >=20 > > Trust me I would notice the mis-features. Once installed tcsh 'cas I w= as > > told how great it was. Riped it out 4 hours later due to incompatibili= ties > > with these 40 year old, 20 year BSD csh trained fingers of mine would k= eep > > typing things that tcsh didn't like. >=20 > Sorry to add to a thread that I should probably stay away from...but... >=20 > Having used csh for almost as long as Rod has, I can sometimes tell > within 10 minutes after logging in if I'm using csh or tcsh. There are > differences. I haven't tried a recent tcsh port in a while, but > since there is a lot of discussion about this, I think that we should > hold off on any changes. It took me all of 4 commands and I was already running into diffences, mainly in the ``command completion'' that O'Brien wants this for. Well, tcsh and csh are quite diffent in how they do file name completion. 2 key strokes is not a penalty I am going to pay. (esc vs esc esc). Having it add trailing / is another one I dislike. And what is that damn space there for on non-dirs. I really dislike that. I often complete a filename and tack something on, as in: cp foo foo.bak typed as: cp f=1B f=1B.bak tcsh makes me do: cp f=1B=1Bf=1B=1B=08.bak ARGHH!!! This is not effecient... exit pkg_delete tcsh see ya.... >=20 > Just to see if my point is still valid, I think I'll go install > tcsh and start using it as my shell for a while. You won't last long. I actually kept ponding away at it until it caused me to do something stupid.... :-( All of 20 minutes maybe. Now.... I did my part... I tried tcsh. I say that it is in no way user transparent if we change /bin/csh, and it will down right frustrate a few people. --=20 Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.= net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 6:32:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5864C37B51A for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24397 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:36:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA36571 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:32:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA19237B51A for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 12dYrK-000Dne-00; Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:31:38 +0200 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:31:38 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Mike Pritchard , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000407153138.A52975@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000407055928.A48528@mppsystems.com> <200004071325.GAA40640@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200004071325.GAA40640@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri 2000-04-07 (06:25), Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > It took me all of 4 commands and I was already running into diffences, > mainly in the ``command completion'' that O'Brien wants this for. Well, > tcsh and csh are quite diffent in how they do file name completion. >=20 > 2 key strokes is not a penalty I am going to pay. (esc vs esc esc). bindkey =1B complete-word > Having it add trailing / is another one I dislike. And what is that > damn space there for on non-dirs. I really dislike that. I often > complete a filename and tack something on, as in: > cp foo foo.bak > typed as: > cp f=1B f=1B.bak >=20 > tcsh makes me do: > cp f=1B=1Bf=1B=1B=08.bak unset addsuffix > You won't last long. I actually kept ponding away at it until it > caused me to do something stupid.... :-( All of 20 minutes maybe. >=20 > Now.... I did my part... I tried tcsh. I say that it is in no way > user transparent if we change /bin/csh, and it will down right frustrate > a few people. You didn't try very hard. Neil --=20 Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 9:46:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9231437B596 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:46:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23770 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:49:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA37167 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:46:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C0437B565 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA45507; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38EE1093.BA03E28@gorean.org> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:45:07 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0325 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Mike Pritchard , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: <20000407055928.A48528@mppsystems.com> <200004071325.GAA40640@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <20000407153138.A52975@mithrandr.moria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > On Fri 2000-04-07 (06:25), Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > It took me all of 4 commands and I was already running into diffences, > > mainly in the ``command completion'' that O'Brien wants this for. Well, > > tcsh and csh are quite diffent in how they do file name completion. > > > > 2 key strokes is not a penalty I am going to pay. (esc vs esc esc). > > bindkey  complete-word I think Neil brings up a good point here. How hard would it be for the proponents of the change to create a dot file that causes the new tcsh to emulate the behavior of the old tcsh that's currently installed? Then the people with finger habits (which I fully sympathize with, I install bash just about everywhere for the same reason) will be able to have their cake and eat it too. Doug -- Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. -- W. Somerset Maugham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 10: 2:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C37F37B5F3 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24000 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:05:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA37218 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:02:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ED537BE15; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA70838; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:01:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Warner Losh , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004070640.XAA39777@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > And not just doing the me too thing all the others seem > to enjoy doing during these types of threads... (Sorry to beat this > issue so much, but I've now seen at least 6 of them with 0 technical > content, one even asking if his vote still counted... I happen to agree with the technical arguments raised by others in favour of tcsh. Should I type them all out again? Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 10:30:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E478137BB77 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24357 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:34:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA37370 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:30:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E39F37C039 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:27:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C30BB1C69; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:26:57 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Warner Losh , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000407132657.X23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <200004070609.AAA97669@harmony.village.org> <200004070640.XAA39777@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200004070640.XAA39777@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:40:05PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:40:05PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > And not just doing the me too thing all the others seem > to enjoy doing during these types of threads... (Sorry to beat this > issue so much, but I've now seen at least 6 of them with 0 technical > content, one even asking if his vote still counted... I'll be sure to copy/paste David's original post next time for the "reasons I'd like to see it in". Obviously limiting bloat only applies to crusty shells and not -arch discussions -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect Computer Horizons Corp - CVM e-mail: billf@chc-chimes.com / billf@FreeBSD.org Office: 800-252-2421 x128 / Cell: 248-761-7272 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 11:28:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205FA37BE23 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24977 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:31:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA37525 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:28:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (207-44-235-154.CodeGen.COM [207.44.235.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBD3E37B7CB for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) Received: from pinhead.parag.codegen.com (localhost.parag.codegen.com [127.0.0.1]) by pinhead.parag.codegen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA76529 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from parag@pinhead.parag.codegen.com) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: Message from Bill Fumerola of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:26:57 EDT." <20000407132657.X23367@jade.chc-chimes.com> X-Image-URL: http://www.codegen.com/images/CG-logo-only.gif X-URL: http://www.codegen.com X-Face: =O'Kj74icvU|oS*<7gS/8'\Pbpm}okVj*@UC!IgkmZQAO!W[|iBiMs*|)n*`X ]pW%m>Oz_mK^Gdazsr.Z0/JsFS1uF8gBVIoChGwOy{EK=<6g?aHE`[\S]C]T0Wm Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: <76519.955132075@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> From: Parag Patel Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would this be a bad time to point out that OpenBSD ships pdksh for /bin/sh? :) -- Parag Patel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 11:37: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378B37B574 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25040 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:40:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA37551 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:36:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B9D37C097 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA47502; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:33:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:33:41 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Parag Patel Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Message-ID: <20000407133341.X27486@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <76519.955132075@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <76519.955132075@pinhead.parag.codegen.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, April 07, 2000, Parag Patel wrote: > Would this be a bad time to point out that OpenBSD ships pdksh for > /bin/sh? :) Why would we use pdksh when we could use AT&T ksh93 now? -- |Chris Costello |If it was easy, the hardware people would take care of it. `---------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 12: 3:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8990B37B586 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25263 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:06:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA37668 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58C2A37C028 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:03:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06999; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:02:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA01324; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:01:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004071901.NAA01324@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 00:39:23 PDT." <200004070739.AAA39984@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <200004070739.AAA39984@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:01:57 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004070739.AAA39984@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : > rm foo.{a,b,c,d}{a,b,c,d} : Ahh... rm foo.[ad][ad] your wasting key strokes, especially them : damn shifted op's doing the {} thing :-) But you missed the context, where I needed to make sure that I could get the list back so I could feed it to cvs rm ... : > cvs !! : > cvs commit !!:2-$ Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 12: 6: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E5737B574 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25281 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA37690 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:05:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (mass.cdrom.com [204.216.28.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D57F337BDF3 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Received: from mass.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00665; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msmith@mass.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <200004071908.MAA00665@mass.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Doug Barton Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Mike Pritchard , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:45:07 PDT." <38EE1093.BA03E28@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:08:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On Fri 2000-04-07 (06:25), Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > It took me all of 4 commands and I was already running into diffences, > > > mainly in the ``command completion'' that O'Brien wants this for. Well, > > > tcsh and csh are quite diffent in how they do file name completion. > > > > > > 2 key strokes is not a penalty I am going to pay. (esc vs esc esc). > > > > bindkey  complete-word > > I think Neil brings up a good point here. How hard would it be for the > proponents of the change to create a dot file that causes the new tcsh > to emulate the behavior of the old tcsh that's currently installed? Then > the people with finger habits (which I fully sympathize with, I install > bash just about everywhere for the same reason) will be able to have > their cake and eat it too. Single-esc completion is a stupid idea (ANSI terminals use it for other purposes). The few people that are unhappy right now can probably survive either by not using the cursor keys or by learning to hit like everyone else has been for a decade or so. Right now, the issue seems to be between one or two csh diehards and thousands of users that want a better default shell. I don't think there's any level of suffering on the part of the former party that isn't justified by catering to the latter in this case. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 12:51:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0893D37BABF for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA25610 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:55:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA37779 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:51:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3EE37C117 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA41256; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:49:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004071949.MAA41256@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004071901.NAA01324@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 7, 2000 01:01:57 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <200004070739.AAA39984@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > : > rm foo.{a,b,c,d}{a,b,c,d} > : Ahh... rm foo.[ad][ad] your wasting key strokes, especially them > : damn shifted op's doing the {} thing :-) > > But you missed the context, where I needed to make sure that I could > get the list back so I could feed it to cvs rm ... The context goes into the history list, you don't have to worry the !! and !!:2-$ as they do not re-evaluate the regex, the pull the values stored in the history buffers. You can always get the list back... think for a minute, Do a few ``h'''s and look, then think some more about your ``context'' situation above. Oh... and you can stop by and borrow my nice new shinny orange cone to protect your head with :-) > : > cvs !! > : > cvs commit !!:2-$ > > Warner > -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 12:58:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1424937C082 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:58:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25661 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:01:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA37811 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 21:58:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A80237C0D4 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07208; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:56:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA01762; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:55:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004071955.NAA01762@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:49:38 PDT." <200004071949.MAA41256@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <200004071949.MAA41256@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:55:32 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200004071949.MAA41256@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : The context goes into the history list, you don't have to worry the !! : and !!:2-$ as they do not re-evaluate the regex, the pull the values stored : in the history buffers. They pull the regex out of the history buffer, which no longer match the files that have just been removed: % touch 1 2 3 4 5 6 % rm [1-6] % echo !$ echo [1-6] echo: No match. % : You can always get the list back... think for a minute, Do a few ``h'''s : and look, then think some more about your ``context'' situation above. But the expansion of the regex isn't in the buffer. That's why I needed the {}'s. Those exand w/o reguard to files matching them. : Oh... and you can stop by and borrow my nice new shinny orange : cone to protect your head with :-) Nah, you keep it :-). Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 13:59:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3579837BF57 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26115 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:03:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA37923 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:59:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D58F37BE2B for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF6A1CD7; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 13:59:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: Parag Patel , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Costello of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:33:41 CDT." <20000407133341.X27486@holly.calldei.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:59:30 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20000407205930.5EF6A1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello wrote: > On Friday, April 07, 2000, Parag Patel wrote: > > Would this be a bad time to point out that OpenBSD ships pdksh for > > /bin/sh? :) > > Why would we use pdksh when we could use AT&T ksh93 now? We can't unless they have changed the license again. Redistribution in source was only permitted as the unmodified .tar.gz or .zip as supplied by them. I'm not sure that we want to go through the src/bin/sh/ksh93.tgz.uu thing again.. Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 14:15:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D37437BB0D for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26283 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:18:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA37958 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:15:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B4337C18E for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA41417; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <200004072114.OAA41417@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004071955.NAA01762@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Apr 7, 2000 01:55:32 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arch@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <200004071949.MAA41256@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > : The context goes into the history list, you don't have to worry the !! > : and !!:2-$ as they do not re-evaluate the regex, the pull the values stored > : in the history buffers. > > They pull the regex out of the history buffer, which no longer match > the files that have just been removed: > > % touch 1 2 3 4 5 6 > % rm [1-6] > % echo !$ > echo [1-6] > echo: No match. > % > > : You can always get the list back... think for a minute, Do a few ``h'''s > : and look, then think some more about your ``context'' situation above. > > But the expansion of the regex isn't in the buffer. That's why I > needed the {}'s. Those exand w/o reguard to files matching them. > > : Oh... and you can stop by and borrow my nice new shinny orange > : cone to protect your head with :-) > > Nah, you keep it :-). I have even placed it on my head for you <:)... -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 15:50:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFF537BE62 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27013 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:54:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA38105 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:50:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC7C37BA56 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA48189 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:50:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:50:44 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Updated patch to fdesc. Message-ID: <20000407175043.Z27486@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000330004918.E44541@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <20000330004918.E44541@holly.calldei.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My latest update to the patch has brought proper `.' and `..' links (as far as I can see), and finally proper va_fileid values for each node--it was originally filled in for the original FS value in the case of a `regular file' or directory (VNODE or VDIR respectively). http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/fdesc/ has documentation on what I'm up to with this patch. -- |Chris Costello |You have junk mail. `---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 15:54:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AED37BB54 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:54:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27059 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:57:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA38124 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 00:54:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from holly.calldei.com (adsl-208-191-146-189.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net [208.191.146.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211C037BB54 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.calldei.com) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA48229 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:54:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:54:07 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Updated patch to fdesc. Message-ID: <20000407175407.A27486@holly.calldei.com> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <20000330004918.E44541@holly.calldei.com> <20000407175043.Z27486@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i In-Reply-To: <20000407175043.Z27486@holly.calldei.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, April 07, 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/fdesc/ has documentation on what > I'm up to with this patch. The patch is, of course, still available from http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/fdesc.patch -- |Chris Costello |You have a tendency to feel you are superior to most computers. `--------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 16:10:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B5237C18E for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27151 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:14:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA38167 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:10:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD20F37B5F1; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (Foolstrustidentd@obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24448; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 17:10:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <38EE6AF1.52996EB1@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:10:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > And not just doing the me too thing all the others seem > > to enjoy doing during these types of threads... (Sorry to beat this > > issue so much, but I've now seen at least 6 of them with 0 technical > > content, one even asking if his vote still counted... > > I happen to agree with the technical arguments raised by others in favour > of tcsh. Should I type them all out again? Yes, that way we'll know you're serious. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 20:55:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F09C37B6E6 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02392 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:58:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA41877 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 05:55:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254C437B832; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 20:54:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA90488; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:54:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:54:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Bob Bishop Cc: obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000407094800.00ac2970@gid.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Bob Bishop wrote: > Hi, > > At 13:49 06/04/00 -0700, David O'Brien wrote: > >I'm going to be importing tcsh into src/contrib/ and replacing /bin/csh > >with tcsh. [etc] I guess this is as good a message to reply to as any. What a complete waste of time this whole discussion is. Those wanting tcsh can have it now really easily. The *very* few who need small size, well, they *need* small size. I personally feel kinda trapped in a new login, until I go compile tcsh into it, but who cares? I can do that, you can do that, why is that such a big deal that we have to penalize others? David's right, it's much better in nearly every way, but since it's something we have already to a completely satisfactory degree, the smallest valid complaint (and "I don't like it" isn't valid enough, but memory size in floppies is) wins out. I'll just keep on adding the port. Big deal. Bleah. David, go try talking them into replacing vi with Vim. I'll go get a soda, pull up a chair, and watch the fur fly! If we're gonna have a stupid donnybrook, let's really get into it! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C & Java programming, FreeBSD, chuckr@picnic.mat.net | electronics, communications, and signal processing. New Year's Resolution: I will not sphroxify gullible people into looking up fictitious words in the dictionary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Apr 7 22:26:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1095E37B695 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02855 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:29:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA41957 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 07:26:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D841E37BD38; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 22:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08983; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:26:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA04514; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 23:25:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004080525.XAA04514@harmony.village.org> To: Chuck Robey Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh Cc: Bob Bishop , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:54:13 EDT." References: Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:25:12 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Chuck Robey writes: : Bleah. David, go try talking them into replacing vi with Vim. I'll go : get a soda, pull up a chair, and watch the fur fly! If we're gonna have a : stupid donnybrook, let's really get into it! One can argue that tcsh is really csh version N+1. There's already a precident in the tree when we replaced vi with nvi, which is vi version N + 1. And look at how much sendmail has grown since FreeBSD 1.0, yet you don't hear calls for removing it from the system due to its size (other reasons, yes, but not its size). And look how much bigger the new bind is than the older one. That that was a huge, incompatible change with config files even. Oh, and did I mention xntpd vs ntpd? Heck, the name even changed there an no one batted an eye, once they got a couple of niggles with the config files ironed out. I don't see what the huge hub-bub is. Besides, most of that "bloat" is in the static tcsh due to the fact that it is linked with curses. Eliminate that, and you've eliminated most of the bloat. Looks like all it uses are: tgetstr, tgetflag, tgoto, tputs, tgetent, tgetnum so why it is linking all of ncurses on my box I'm not sure. And all of them are in ed.screen.c. Also, I think that obrien's numbers were wrong initially. I think that tcsh is more like 580k statically linked, not the 720k number I recall from a previous post. At least that's what I got right now when I tried it. This is still 298k larger than /bin/csh on my box right now. Of course ed.chared.o and ed.screen.o do account for a large mount of the difference (43k just on these two modules according to size). tcsh also has its own malloc/free junk. I think that one could save some space by keeping it out, but it would be only 5k or so. I suspect that if we were to provide a way to compile out the command line editing and curses use for those folks that want a small csh, we'd have a csh that's close enough to the same size that they wouldn't notice. Then again, I suppose that those doing the complaining about size really should do this work :-) It doesn't look trivial to do, but it isn't hard work, just lots of it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 8 8:19: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E1B37B54C for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05565 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:22:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA00569 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.79.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B81037BA6D; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.79.115]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15430; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:16:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09183; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:16:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:16:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200004081516.JAA09183@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Warner Losh Cc: Chuck Robey , Bob Bishop , obrien@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Import of tcsh into src/contrib/, replacing src/usr.bin/csh In-Reply-To: <200004080525.XAA04514@harmony.village.org> References: <200004080525.XAA04514@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : Bleah. David, go try talking them into replacing vi with Vim. I'll go > : get a soda, pull up a chair, and watch the fur fly! If we're gonna have a > : stupid donnybrook, let's really get into it! > > One can argue that tcsh is really csh version N+1. There's already a > precident in the tree when we replaced vi with nvi, which is vi > version N + 1. Actually, nvi replaced elvis, so this analogy breaks down. The original vi is still not free software, so we've never had access to it in FreeBSD. > And look at how much sendmail has grown since FreeBSD 1.0, yet you > don't hear calls for removing it from the system due to its size > (other reasons, yes, but not its size). Actually, size has alot to do with it. It's big/bloated, so it's harder to verify that it's correct and secure. > And look how much bigger the new bind is than the older one. That > that was a huge, incompatible change with config files even. Ahh, but in the case of bind, we have no choice in the matter. Either we use the new version of bind, or we don't get to play on the net. (And, most folks on the net are still running the old, smaller version of 4.9.7). > Oh, and did I mention xntpd vs ntpd? Heck, the name even changed > there an no one batted an eye, once they got a couple of niggles with > the config files ironed out. That's cause most folks don't run ntp. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 8 9:36:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1D437B5C6 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05938 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:40:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA00683 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:36:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7C137B5DD for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07027; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:36:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:36:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200004081636.SAA07027@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: <8cjq58$2c7s$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In list.freebsd-arch Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > I'm gonna regret this but ...while people are in this discussion may I > bring again the nawk vs gawk discussion? I'm not a comitter or anything, so maybe I'm not authorized to jump in here, but... Replacing gawk with nawk would be a large step backwards for me, because it would break many (if not most) of my scripts. And this is really _many_. nawk doesn't have such useful things like gensub(), systime(), strftime(), support for certain pseudo-files such as /dev/pid, /dev/user and a lot of other things. Of course, I could install gawk from the ports, but does that justify a step backwards? I'd think it violates POLA. At the very minimum, I'd have to fix the path #!/usr/bin/awk -f in all of the scripts... :-) Just my 0.02 Euro. Regards Oliver PS: I do not like tcsh at all (I'm into zsh, which -- by the way -- can emulate csh within certain limits), but replacing csh with tcsh is at least a step _forward_, somehow. -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 8 11:22:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B217437B8B3 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06496 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:26:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA00990 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:22:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD42B37B543 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from asme.org ([216.226.229.175]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA18AF for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 13:20:37 -0400 Message-ID: <38EF78E3.B86EFC11@asme.org> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:22:27 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: No nawk ?? References: <200004081636.SAA07027@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oliver Fromme wrote: > ... > > Replacing gawk with nawk would be a large step backwards for > me, because it would break many (if not most) of my scripts. > And this is really _many_. nawk doesn't have such useful > things like gensub(), systime(), strftime(), support for > certain pseudo-files such as /dev/pid, /dev/user and a lot of > other things. > Excuse my ignorance, but are these extensions standard (POSIX) or GNU? If they are GNU extensions my opinion is that they should not be in the base system. The reason would be the same for not depending on gcc's GNU extensions to build a kernel. > Of course, I could install gawk from the ports, but does that > justify a step backwards? I'd think it violates POLA. At > the very minimum, I'd have to fix the path #!/usr/bin/awk -f > in all of the scripts... :-) > Check out mawk; it's faster and is fully POSIX. I agree that nawk is limited WRT the other awks, but I prefer it for the base system due to the history it has and because it's smaller and faster than gawk. GNU awk is the worst of the three options (many bugs, big and slow). I have only made some very simplistic tests, so this can be considered only IMHO. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Apr 8 22:45:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F4E37B5D5 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:45:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09850 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:49:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA02012 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 07:45:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 541FA37B5D5 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA65926 for arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:48:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:48:34 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: kqueue again Message-ID: <20000409004834.R80578@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've put up a new patch and some tiny test programs again at: http://www.flugsvamp.com/~jlemon/fbsd This round adds support for signal notification via kqueues, and also process exit notification. API changes: The kevent() call now takes an array of pointers to `struct kevent' on input. This allows the structures to be embedded in a larger structure, instead of requiring them to be contiguous in memory. Hoever, the full `struct kevent' is returned when an event happens, instead of trying to use a pointer to update the original structure. This allows the user not to keep any state between kevent() calls, if they choose. To assist the user in tracking their requests, a void *udata field was added to struct kqueue. This field is passed in and out of the kernel untouched, so the user may use it in any fashion. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message