From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Dec 17 11:39:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:39:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7141137B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBHJdXe51603; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:39:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:39:32 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.org Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Removing #ifdefs on LOGIN_CAP? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As part of the mandatory access control implementation, I'm using the capabilities database (/etc/login.conf) to add label information to user classes; in this manner, each user is mapped to appropriate mandatory policy restrictions and rights. To do this, I've introduced LOGIN_SETLABEL as an option to setusercontext(), which extracts the labeling information, and applies it to user processes at login. This has a number of impacts -- first, it requires that programs use setusercontext() when working with user context information, rather than manually diddling with uid's, which is probably a good thing. It also requires the programs start correctly using LOGIN_SETALL rather than manually contructing masks (a bit of work -- I updated su to do this a couple of weeks ago, but work remains to be done in other programs). This raises the following issue: currently, the login capability code is ifdef'd by LOGIN_CAP throughout the source tree, and in many cases, alternative implementations of context management code exist in an #else. Do we know if anyone still uses the old code? Would there be any objections to transitioning to only using setusercontext() and the login capabilities database rather than retaining the old implementations, giving us a consistent implementation throughout and allowing the capability database to hold additional per-user/class security properties? I also plan to use login.conf to hold information on privileges (capabilities) that users are allowed to acquire via su as well as configuring per-user audit properties, so there are other applications that will use this also. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Dec 17 16:35: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 16:34:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A2937B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24555; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:32:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Sender: doug@dt051n37.san.rr.com Message-ID: <3A3D5B06.7DBCB95B@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:32:06 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs References: <3A3C0C70.848F5057@cup.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > Hi, > > In order to reduce the number of ELF specific tools, I rewrote > gensetdefs(1) in perl Not to rain on your parade, but personally I'd rather see the amount of perl in the base reduced instead of increased. Is there a way to solve the cross-build problems without making this into a perl script? Doug -- "The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment." -- Theodore H. White Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Dec 17 17:53:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 17:53:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B2A37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:53:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3F0FE58; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id RAA11615; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:53:47 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A3D6E2B.E6BFB5DC@cup.hp.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:53:47 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs References: <3A3C0C70.848F5057@cup.hp.com> <3A3D5B06.7DBCB95B@gorean.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > > > In order to reduce the number of ELF specific tools, I rewrote > > gensetdefs(1) in perl > > Not to rain on your parade, but personally I'd rather see the amount of > perl in the base reduced instead of increased. Is there a way to solve > the cross-build problems without making this into a perl script? What cross-build problems are you refering to? -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Dec 18 10:47:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:47:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B2337B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBIIlIe72614; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:47:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:47:18 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Garrett Wollman Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing #ifdefs on LOGIN_CAP? In-Reply-To: <200012181833.NAA22274@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garrett, I've CC'd the answer to your question back to -arch, because I think it's highly relevant, and not a point I meant to gloss over in my request of consideration of the LOGIN_CAP issue. On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > > a number of impacts -- first, it requires that programs use > > setusercontext() when working with user context information, rather than > > manually diddling with uid's, which is probably a good thing. It also > > What about all the programs which need to swap user identities? Well, the answer to that question very much depends on why it is the program needs to swap user identities. In many cases, setusercontext() will do the right thing, since they won't switch back and forth -- for example: login, su, sendmail, cron, inetd, and so on. Other programs are setuid to root so that they can exercise privilege and override system protections (such as ping, which requires a raw socket, or ssh, when using a low port number). In my TrustedBSD implementation, this is dealt with by using POSIX.1e capabilities to provide access to privilege rather than uid/gid diddling. There is a further set of programs that make use of setuid or setgid to provide mediated access to a shared resource -- for example, out setgid man and setuid lpr. In the first case, the goal is to make use of a shared cache in a controlled manner -- in the second, it's to make use of a shared spooling area. In both situations, there are clear weaknesses involved in making use of the setuid and setgid schemes, but also benefits. The same services can by addressed through daemons on IPC sockets, to a large extent, but one feature of setud/setgid binaries is that they inherit the full environment of the user process, and so can do things that are made very difficult through a controlled IPC channel -- for example, man has no problem understanding that it must run in a chroot() or jail(), and what that means. lpr has no problem with the current working directory; and piping all print files through IPC may be undesirable for many sites, when simply copying the file into the spool area with privilege provides much better performance. However, given the presence of new security policies, it's not clear that these setuid or setgid binaries even continue to gain the privilege necessary to perform their function by virtue of changing uids or gids. With a Biba integrity policy protecting users and the system, just runnings as gid man doesn't mean you can write to the man cache directories, at least not if you want a process with a higher grade to read from the cache directory. We'll have to address these issues seperately. I'd like to migrate all the programs that literally manipulate user or login contexts to using well-defined entry points for doing so, reducing code redundancy, as well as the opportunity for inconsistency and error. It also opens the door for additional work relating to PAM and user context management with information sourced from directory services, which is nice. That will probably mean leaving some tools setuid and setgid while we work on a better answer. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 5:21:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 05:21:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ringworld.nanolink.com (ringworld.nanolink.com [195.24.48.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B26C37B6AF for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2053 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2000 13:19:58 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:19:58 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: rm(1)'s -v behavior - filenames vs. paths? Message-ID: <20001219151957.B559@ringworld.oblivion.bg> Mail-Followup-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there a reason that rm -v only shows the filename of the files being removed, instead of e.g. a relative path? The attached patch makes it much easier to monitor the progress of a rm -rfv on a large tree (e.g. a very-very-very mangled FreeBSD source tree, which is being scrubbed before cvs'ing it all from scratch). If I'm trampling on any standards, feel free to point it out :) I do not have access to any ANSI/IEEE/POSIX standards at this time, except for the online SUSv2 reference. G'luck, Peter -- If the meanings of 'true' and 'false' were switched, then this sentence wouldn't be false. Index: rm.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/bin/rm/rm.c,v retrieving revision 1.31 diff -u -r1.31 rm.c --- rm.c 2000/06/17 14:19:32 1.31 +++ rm.c 2000/12/18 14:35:38 @@ -253,7 +253,7 @@ if (rval == 0 || (fflag && errno == ENOENT)) { if (rval == 0 && vflag) (void)printf("%s\n", - p->fts_accpath); + p->fts_path); continue; } break; @@ -263,7 +263,7 @@ if (rval == 0 && (fflag && errno == ENOENT)) { if (vflag) (void)printf("%s\n", - p->fts_accpath); + p->fts_path); continue; } break; @@ -275,7 +275,7 @@ if (rval == 0 || (fflag && errno == ENOENT)) { if (rval == 0 && vflag) (void)printf("%s\n", - p->fts_accpath); + p->fts_path); continue; } } To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 5:30: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 05:29:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [212.154.129.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19AC137B698 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 05:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by relay.butya.kz (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 97E5A2876A; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:29:52 +0600 (ALMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.butya.kz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E294285D2; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:29:52 +0600 (ALMT) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:29:52 +0600 (ALMT) From: Boris Popov To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: retiring kernfs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 13 Dec 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Any serious objections to retiring the (long obsolete) kernfs > pseudo-file system? (I'll count any "kernfs? what's that?" replies as > "no, go ahead and remove it") Yes, it is not maintained for ages and have a very little of useful information. However, some setups here use sysctlfs instead to access kernel information. -- Boris Popov http://www.butya.kz/~bp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 17:24:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 17:24:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F77B37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from slave (Studded@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA52349; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:20:32 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n37.san.rr.com To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs In-Reply-To: <3A3D6E2B.E6BFB5DC@cup.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > Doug Barton wrote: > > > > > In order to reduce the number of ELF specific tools, I rewrote > > > gensetdefs(1) in perl > > > > Not to rain on your parade, but personally I'd rather see the amount of > > perl in the base reduced instead of increased. Is there a way to solve > > the cross-build problems without making this into a perl script? > > What cross-build problems are you refering to? Your stated purpose for making this a perl script was to "reduce the number of ELF specific tools," so I'm wondering why that's a priority, and if it could possibly be solved with a different method. Doug -- "The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment." -- Theodore H. White Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 18: 3:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:03:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E46337B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20959CD; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:03:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id SAA04724; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:03:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A401362.6EA9E607@cup.hp.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:03:14 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Barton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > > > > > In order to reduce the number of ELF specific tools, I rewrote > > > > gensetdefs(1) in perl > > > > > > Not to rain on your parade, but personally I'd rather see the amount of > > > perl in the base reduced instead of increased. Is there a way to solve > > > the cross-build problems without making this into a perl script? > > > > What cross-build problems are you refering to? > > Your stated purpose for making this a perl script was to "reduce > the number of ELF specific tools," so I'm wondering why that's a priority, > and if it could possibly be solved with a different method. Porting FreeBSD to non-supported platforms can be made a bit more easy if we can reduce the overall number of home brewn tools and instead use tools provided by the GNU toolchain. Not only does it allow non-ELF ports, but also help to support big endian ports and other strangeness we don't think about right now. I choose perl(1) because I couldn't find a sufficiently efficient solution otherwise. I've given it some more thought and can probably do it with sed(1), awk(1) and the likes. The only objection I've had so far is that we should not depend on perl(1) and I can see why, so I'm going to rewrite the script... -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 23: 5:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:05:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C0A37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A879709 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id XAA11563 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:05:39 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:05:39 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7F3A09E70C2BA0794B40E0DC" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7F3A09E70C2BA0794B40E0DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read and weep :-) It takes roughly 11 seconds on a 750 Athlon for this script to process all the object files. Not exactly quick... I think it can do better if we can avoid the "system()" calls... -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 --------------7F3A09E70C2BA0794B40E0DC Content-Type: application/x-sh; name="gensetdefs.sh" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="gensetdefs.sh" #!/bin/sh # # Generate setdefs.h # (for obj in $*; do ${OBJDUMP:=objdump} -h $obj | fgrep '.set.' | sed -e 's/2\*\*/1< setdefs.h # # generate setdef0.c # cat < setdef0.c /* THIS FILE IS GENERATED, DO NOT EDIT. */ #define DEFINE_SET(set, count) \\ __asm__(".section .set." #set ",\"aw\""); \\ __asm__(".globl " #set); \\ __asm__(".type " #set ",@object"); \\ __asm__(".p2align 3"); \\ __asm__(#set ":"); \\ __asm__(".quad " #count); \\ __asm__(".previous") #include "setdefs.h" EOF # # generate setdef1.c # cat < setdef1.c /* THIS FILE IS GENERATED, DO NOT EDIT. */ #define DEFINE_SET(set, count) \\ __asm__(".section .set." #set ",\"aw\""); \\ __asm__(".quad 0"); \\ __asm__(".previous") #include "setdefs.h" EOF --------------7F3A09E70C2BA0794B40E0DC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Dec 19 23:40:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:40:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5880537B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK7cGM10050; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:38:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:38:16 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com>; from marcel@cup.hp.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:05:39PM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Marcel Moolenaar [001219 23:06] wrote: > Read and weep :-) > > It takes roughly 11 seconds on a 750 Athlon for this script to process > all the object files. Not exactly quick... > > I think it can do better if we can avoid the "system()" calls... This should have just been done a week ago when it was proposed. There's no reason for you to jump through hoops and have to write obfuscated shell scripts to accomplish this. Marcel, I'm not ranting at you, I'm just suprised that upon checking into this thread this script is what is going to wind up in the base system. :( Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ perl version? thanks, -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:10:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:10:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB47637B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBK8AMs17715; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:10:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA07142; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:10:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Cc: Marcel Moolenaar , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:38:16 PST." <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:10:21 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Alfred Perlstein writes: : Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ : perl version? Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. People should be used to it by now and have learned to cope a long time ago. kobj has required it for some time now and that won't be rewritten in sh any time soon. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:22:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:22:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21E437B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12083; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8MIc41767; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:22:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:22:18 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:38:16PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:38:16PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > perl version? No. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:23:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:23:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE3237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12094; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8NZF41780; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:34 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. A true mistake that needs to be undone. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:29:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:29:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE0937B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBK8T7s17782; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA07311; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:34 PST." <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:07 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. : : A true mistake that needs to be undone. kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't going away any time soon... I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? Sure, it postdates them, but all these are in the base system. Why not use the best, fastest tool for the job? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:29:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:29:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE0937B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBK8T7s17782; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id BAA07311; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:23:34 PST." <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> References: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:29:07 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. : : A true mistake that needs to be undone. kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't going away any time soon... I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? Sure, it postdates them, but all these are in the base system. Why not use the best, fastest tool for the job? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:32: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:32:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C556D37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK8Vxe11552; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:22:18AM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [001220 00:22] wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:38:16PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > > perl version? > > No. Then YOU write it in such a way that it's all of: .) readable, .) maintainable, and .) comes within double the perl version's cpu time. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:32: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:32:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C556D37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK8Vxe11552; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:31:59 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:22:18AM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [001220 00:22] wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:38:16PM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > > perl version? > > No. Then YOU write it in such a way that it's all of: .) readable, .) maintainable, and .) comes within double the perl version's cpu time. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:32:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:32:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A6E37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12125; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8WnR42060; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:32:48 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Peter Pentchev Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: rm(1)'s -v behavior - filenames vs. paths? Message-ID: <20001220003248.C41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org References: <20001219151957.B559@ringworld.oblivion.bg> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219151957.B559@ringworld.oblivion.bg>; from roam@orbitel.bg on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 03:19:58PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 03:19:58PM +0200, Peter Pentchev wrote: > being removed, instead of e.g. a relative path? The attached patch > makes it much easier to monitor the progress of a rm -rfv on a large Commited. Thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:35:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:35:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A4937B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12133; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8ZWW42081; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:35:32 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220003532.D41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. Because the festing pile of sh*t doesn't build properly too often. How many reports have you seen of people who have a lot of trouble with perl when upgrading? We should make it so one can turn Perl off in the world build, and still be able to build a kernel. Once running on a new kernel and new mostly-complete userland, they can re-try bulding the world with perl. > What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? They always build. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:38:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:38:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871C637B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:38:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK8cXj11746; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:38:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:38:33 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Warner Losh Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220003833.K19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> <20001220003532.D41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220003532.D41741@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:35:32AM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [001220 00:35] wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. > > Because the festing pile of sh*t doesn't build properly too often. > How many reports have you seen of people who have a lot of trouble with > perl when upgrading? We should make it so one can turn Perl off in the > world build, and still be able to build a kernel. > > Once running on a new kernel and new mostly-complete userland, they can > re-try bulding the world with perl. This is a bogus argument, people may have problems _compiling_ perl, but I've never heard of anyone having problems with the installed perl. > > What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? > > They always build. And perl 'always' works. What's your point? -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:40:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:40:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4E37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12155; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK8eDL42148; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:13 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:31:59AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:31:59AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Then YOU write it in such a way that it's all of: > .) readable, Sorry, I do read `sh'. I fail to see what is so hard to read in this script. > .) comes within double the perl version's cpu time. Ok, I toss out GNU Awk and import Mawk. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:54:34 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:54:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C8A37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK8sKE12260; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:20 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220005420.M19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:40:13AM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [001220 00:40] wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:31:59AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Then YOU write it in such a way that it's all of: > > .) readable, > > Sorry, I do read `sh'. I fail to see what is so hard to read in this > script. David, you parse configure scripts as part of your work, you've seen the most evil uses of sh imaginable. The fact that you can read it doesn't make it maintainable. I also fear that it will turn into something like makesyscalls.'sh' (should be .awk at this point, or .gross even) > > .) comes within double the perl version's cpu time. > > Ok, I toss out GNU Awk and import Mawk. David, I don't give a hoot what you do with awk, just write the script, get it over with or stand out of the way. You need to calm down and pick your battles, a perl script is not worthy of this. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 0:54:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:54:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C8A37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK8sKE12260; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:54:20 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220005420.M19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:40:13AM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David O'Brien [001220 00:40] wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:31:59AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Then YOU write it in such a way that it's all of: > > .) readable, > > Sorry, I do read `sh'. I fail to see what is so hard to read in this > script. David, you parse configure scripts as part of your work, you've seen the most evil uses of sh imaginable. The fact that you can read it doesn't make it maintainable. I also fear that it will turn into something like makesyscalls.'sh' (should be .awk at this point, or .gross even) > > .) comes within double the perl version's cpu time. > > Ok, I toss out GNU Awk and import Mawk. David, I don't give a hoot what you do with awk, just write the script, get it over with or stand out of the way. You need to calm down and pick your battles, a perl script is not worthy of this. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 1:11:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:11:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321AE37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:11:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA40784; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:15:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200012200915.KAA40784@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <20001220003833.K19572@fw.wintelcom.net> from Alfred Perlstein at "Dec 20, 2000 00:38:33 am" To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:15:46 +0100 (CET) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * David O'Brien [001220 00:35] wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. > > > > Because the festing pile of sh*t doesn't build properly too often. > > How many reports have you seen of people who have a lot of trouble with > > perl when upgrading? We should make it so one can turn Perl off in the > > world build, and still be able to build a kernel. > > > > Once running on a new kernel and new mostly-complete userland, they can > > re-try bulding the world with perl. > > This is a bogus argument, people may have problems _compiling_ perl, > but I've never heard of anyone having problems with the installed > perl. Ooohhh, do I have news for you then :) At work we have nothing but trouble between various versions (or is that subversions) of perl, its evil evil _evil_ EVIL.. > > > What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? > > > > They always build. > > And perl 'always' works. No it does not, I stand with David here, get that perl crap out of the kernel build, its hard to maintain (impossible if you didn't write it yourself not too long ago) and we shouldn't need perl to build the kernel, period. > What's your point? Whats yours ? -Søren - who is glad he can now speak freely :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 1:25:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:25:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F04B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBK9OCU13139; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:24:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:24:12 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Soren Schmidt Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Warner Losh Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220012411.N19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001220003833.K19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200915.KAA40784@freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200915.KAA40784@freebsd.dk>; from sos@freebsd.dk on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:15:46AM +0100 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Soren Schmidt [001220 01:11] wrote: > It seems Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > * David O'Brien [001220 00:35] wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. > > > > > > Because the festing pile of sh*t doesn't build properly too often. > > > How many reports have you seen of people who have a lot of trouble with > > > perl when upgrading? We should make it so one can turn Perl off in the > > > world build, and still be able to build a kernel. > > > > > > Once running on a new kernel and new mostly-complete userland, they can > > > re-try bulding the world with perl. > > > > This is a bogus argument, people may have problems _compiling_ perl, > > but I've never heard of anyone having problems with the installed > > perl. > > Ooohhh, do I have news for you then :) > At work we have nothing but trouble between various versions (or is > that subversions) of perl, its evil evil _evil_ EVIL.. That's probably because you're not using it properly. > > > > What makes it different than awk or sh or sed? > > > > > > They always build. > > > > And perl 'always' works. > > No it does not, I stand with David here, get that perl crap out of the > kernel build, its hard to maintain (impossible if you didn't write it yourself > not too long ago) and we shouldn't need perl to build the kernel, period. That's untrue, when commented and using 'strict', perl code is not hard to maintain. The only reason you have an issue with perl is that most of the initial perl stuff in the kernel section was written by Peter who didn't use strict and was pretty stingy with comments. > > What's your point? > > Whats yours ? My point is that writing sh scripts which consist of mostle awk and some pipeline resembling line noise is a stupid way to slow down, obfuscate and limit the future utility of a script that could be faster and cleaner when written in perl. The fact that it's so trivial to write it in sh+sed+grep+awk+sort means that if there's ever some perl catastrophy we can easily drop in a replacement. We don't need that replacement now, we need something fast, less resource hungry and adaptable, which is why a perl script works and using sh+grep+awk+sed doesn't. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 1:56:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:56:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AFB737B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12378; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:56:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK9ulP42786; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:56:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:56:47 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220015646.I41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220002218.A41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220003159.J19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <20001220004012.E41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220005420.M19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220005420.M19572@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:54:20AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:54:20AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > You need to calm down I AM CALM, OR I WAS, BUT NOW I WILL NOT BE SINCE YOU DO NOT WANT ME TO BE. > and pick your battles, a perl script is not worthy of this. I am -- toolchain bits are my battle. I didn't realize you wanted to get into this area too. Or are you not choosing your battles. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) P.S. would you please stop emailing the list, AND cc'ing it at the same time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:33:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:33:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from henny.webweaving.org (unknown [212.113.16.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDCA37B402; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by henny.webweaving.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA59605; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:28:44 GMT (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:28:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@henny.webweaving.org Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've written the initial perl version of the, then, .m -> .[ch] script for newbus in perl, because it was available and did the job better more easily than a combination of various other tools. The biggest problem you will find is that the Perl script makes an effort at making the output readable (figuring out the indent used, whitespace correction if possible, format_line that splits a long line over multiple lines) and has some reasonable error checking. You won't be able to do that in a shell script. I don't think it is impossible to rewrite it, but anyone suggesting that it should be, should come up with the converted script. Nick > In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. > : > : A true mistake that needs to be undone. > > kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes > the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't > going away any time soon... > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. What > makes it different than awk or sh or sed? Sure, it postdates them, > but all these are in the base system. Why not use the best, fastest > tool for the job? > > Warner > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > -- Qube Software, Ltd. Private: n_hibma@qubesoft.com n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org http://www.qubesoft.com/ http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:33:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:33:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from henny.webweaving.org (unknown [212.113.16.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDCA37B402; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by henny.webweaving.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA59605; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:28:44 GMT (envelope-from n_hibma@calcaphon.com) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:28:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@henny.webweaving.org Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've written the initial perl version of the, then, .m -> .[ch] script for newbus in perl, because it was available and did the job better more easily than a combination of various other tools. The biggest problem you will find is that the Perl script makes an effort at making the output readable (figuring out the indent used, whitespace correction if possible, format_line that splits a long line over multiple lines) and has some reasonable error checking. You won't be able to do that in a shell script. I don't think it is impossible to rewrite it, but anyone suggesting that it should be, should come up with the converted script. Nick > In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. > : > : A true mistake that needs to be undone. > > kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes > the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't > going away any time soon... > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. What > makes it different than awk or sh or sed? Sure, it postdates them, > but all these are in the base system. Why not use the best, fastest > tool for the job? > > Warner > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > -- Qube Software, Ltd. Private: n_hibma@qubesoft.com n_hibma@webweaving.org n_hibma@freebsd.org http://www.qubesoft.com/ http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:41:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:41:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B3F37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:41:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06946; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:39:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: Doug Barton , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs References: <3A401362.6EA9E607@cup.hp.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:39:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: Marcel Moolenaar's message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:03:14 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marcel Moolenaar writes: > I choose perl(1) because I couldn't find a sufficiently efficient > solution otherwise. I've given it some more thought and can probably do > it with sed(1), awk(1) and the likes. The only objection I've had so far > is that we should not depend on perl(1) and I can see why, so I'm going > to rewrite the script... Don't be ridiculous - we already depend on Perl for kernel builds, and have for more than a year, and with a Perl script there's at least a chance that someone might understand the code (which I consider a good thing, though there may be some monkeys who would prefer to keep the kernel to themselves and resent any change that makes it easy for others to understand and maintain). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:44:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:44:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123A637B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA06961; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:42:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Soren Schmidt Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) References: <200012200915.KAA40784@freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:42:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: Soren Schmidt's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:15:46 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Soren Schmidt writes: > No it does not, I stand with David here, get that perl crap out of > the kernel build, its hard to maintain (impossible if you didn't > write it yourself not too long ago) and we shouldn't need perl to > build the kernel, period. Stop parroting idiotic and false anti-Perl-bigot FUD. Learn to use the language properly, and open your eyes and look at the Perl code that's actually in the tree (vnode_if.pl, for instance). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:52:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:52:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C5537B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA64230; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:57:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200012201057.LAA64230@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Dec 20, 2000 11:42:59 am" To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:57:31 +0100 (CET) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Soren Schmidt writes: > > No it does not, I stand with David here, get that perl crap out of > > the kernel build, its hard to maintain (impossible if you didn't > > write it yourself not too long ago) and we shouldn't need perl to > > build the kernel, period. > > Stop parroting idiotic and false anti-Perl-bigot FUD. Learn to use the > language properly, and open your eyes and look at the Perl code that's > actually in the tree (vnode_if.pl, for instance). Oh my god, take a chill pill will ya ? I'm just stating _my_ opinion here, you can do the same... Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 2:57: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:57:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD34437B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA07017; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:55:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Soren Schmidt Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) References: <200012201057.LAA64230@freebsd.dk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Dec 2000 11:55:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: Soren Schmidt's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:57:31 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Soren Schmidt writes: > Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... That's generally not true either, but you apparently don't care to hear my opinion, so I'll just shut up. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 3: 2:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:02:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E46A37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA66541; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:07:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200012201107.MAA66541@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Dec 20, 2000 11:55:41 am" To: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:07:21 +0100 (CET) Cc: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Soren Schmidt writes: > > Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... > > That's generally not true either, but you apparently don't care to > hear my opinion, so I'll just shut up. So, you dont read the -current list and you dont run SMP HW, well... I read your opinion, and I told you mine, thats the way things work here, no need to get excited over that... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 3:20: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:20:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A8337B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:20:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBKBIhb16342; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:18:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:18:43 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Soren Schmidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Warner Losh Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220031843.O19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200012201057.LAA64230@freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012201057.LAA64230@freebsd.dk>; from sos@freebsd.dk on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:57:31AM +0100 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Soren Schmidt [001220 02:53] wrote: > It seems Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Soren Schmidt writes: > > > No it does not, I stand with David here, get that perl crap out of > > > the kernel build, its hard to maintain (impossible if you didn't > > > write it yourself not too long ago) and we shouldn't need perl to > > > build the kernel, period. > > > > Stop parroting idiotic and false anti-Perl-bigot FUD. Learn to use the > > language properly, and open your eyes and look at the Perl code that's > > actually in the tree (vnode_if.pl, for instance). > > Oh my god, take a chill pill will ya ? > > I'm just stating _my_ opinion here, you can do the same... > > Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... I'm not sure what you mean by fragile, I'm not exactly stressing my boxes, but except for a single reboot, my machines have been fine. 3:14AM up 7 days, 1:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Dec 13 01:38:43 -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 3:34:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:34:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB8C37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA73804; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:39:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200012201139.MAA73804@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <20001220031843.O19572@fw.wintelcom.net> from Alfred Perlstein at "Dec 20, 2000 03:18:43 am" To: bright@wintelcom.net (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:39:31 +0100 (CET) Cc: des@ofug.org (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org (Warner Losh) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... > > I'm not sure what you mean by fragile, I'm not exactly stressing my > boxes, but except for a single reboot, my machines have been fine. > > 3:14AM up 7 days, 1:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Dec 13 01:38:43 Is this SMP HW ? For month -current has been more or less unusable on SMP HW, all you need to do is a make -j32 world and it will hang totally dead in the water within a few minutes, so locked up nothing but a reset will get it back (no NMI on any of my SMP boxen)... There has been a few short periods where it could do most of a make world (see the snapshot server :) ) just to be fair.... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 9:44:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:44:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6782837B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA542774; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:40:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:40:46 -0500 To: Alfred Perlstein , Marcel Moolenaar From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:38 PM -0800 12/19/00, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >This should have just been done a week ago when it was proposed. >There's no reason for you to jump through hoops and have >to write obfuscated shell scripts to accomplish this. > >Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ >perl version? I would also prefer writing perl scripts for operations which get too damn complicated and too expensive to do in shell scripts. Here at RPI we have a number of sysadmin-type scripts which we tried to shoehorn into sh-scripts by using increasingly complicated incantations of grep, awk, tr, and other tiny unix programs. We're starting to give up on that, and just use a perl for the more complicated things. The perl scripts run in MUCH less time, because we aren't forking another unix command every time we want to look at some byte in a character string. We had some scripts which would chew thru >10,000 unix process id's trying to get their job done. That is just nuts. Or maybe use python, if people are scared of trusting perl's size and build-complexity for "lower level" sysadmin duties. I can sympathize with that concern, given that was exactly why we (RPI) stuck so slavishly to sh-scripts for so long. Not that I know python, but perhaps it would be a suitable choice. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 9:57:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:57:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232A837B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel3.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2E12D4; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (gauss.cup.hp.com [15.28.97.152]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id JAA26655; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:56:59 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:56:59 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > There's no reason for you to jump through hoops and have > to write obfuscated shell scripts to accomplish this. Thank you. It would be nice if I don't have to write obfuscated shell scripts next time before people join the discussion and give some feedback other than Perl is bad... > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > perl version? We can. -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 10:32:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 10:32:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E23837B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:32:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14590; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:32:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKIVs109330; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:31:54 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220103154.A9294@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com>; from marcel@cup.hp.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:56:59AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:56:59AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > > perl version? > > We can. Ok, give me the full requrements and I'll write the C program to do it then. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX Disclaimer: Not speaking for FreeBSD, just expressing my own opinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 10:34:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 10:34:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (w250.z064001178.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.178.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 610D537B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:34:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11320 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Dec 2000 18:35:13 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:34:51 -0800 From: Jos Backus To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220103451.D11014@lizzy.bugworks.com> Reply-To: Jos Backus References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from drosih@rpi.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:40:24PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 12:40:24PM -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > Or maybe use python, if people are scared of trusting perl's > size and build-complexity for "lower level" sysadmin duties. Or Ruby: http://www.ruby-lang.org/ -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Modularity is not a hack." _/ _/ _/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ josb@cncdsl.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 10:36:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 10:36:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205E737B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14621; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:36:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKIatn09433; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:36:55 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A perlified gensetdefs Message-ID: <20001220103654.C9294@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: nobody@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A401362.6EA9E607@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:39:16AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:39:16AM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Don't be ridiculous - we already depend on Perl for kernel builds, and > have for more than a year, And that was a total mistake. > and with a Perl script there's at least a chance that someone might > understand the code (which I consider a good thing, though there may be And with C even more might understand the code. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 11:39:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:39:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444B637B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D68D230 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id LAA00342 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:38:50 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:38:51 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> <20001220103154.A9294@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:56:59AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ > > > perl version? > > > > We can. > > Ok, give me the full requrements and I'll write the C program to do it > then. The posted perl(1) and awk(1) versions should tell you what is required. These scripts are derived from our current C implementation in /usr/bin. -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 11:54:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:54:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697A237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:54:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15030; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKJsWH10336; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:54:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:54:32 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: nobody@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> <20001220103154.A9294@dragon.nuxi.com> <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com>; from marcel@cup.hp.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > The posted perl(1) and awk(1) versions should tell you what is required. > These scripts are derived from our current C implementation in /usr/bin. Yes, and I still fail to see why one cannot build a gensetdefs binary (ie, from C source) for the target machine manually and use that. From the looks of it that is what DFR did for his IA-64 work. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 12: 2:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:02:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C5B37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA44197; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:02:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:02:40 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200012202002.PAA44197@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: References: Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article some random person who claims to be but is apparently actually wrote: >On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:56:59AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >> > Now can we end the bikeshed and just use the fast and _READABLE_ >> > perl version? >> >> We can. > >Ok, give me the full requrements and I'll write the C program to do it >then. David, can you please shut up and stop trying to obstruct progress? You're not in any position to complain about the language choices made by *people actually doing the work* of this project. Perl is here to stay. Get over it. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 12:11:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:11:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEBA37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EACE5D8 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id MAA01786 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:11:29 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A411271.F4E5C036@cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:11:29 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> <20001220103154.A9294@dragon.nuxi.com> <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com> <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > The posted perl(1) and awk(1) versions should tell you what is required. > > These scripts are derived from our current C implementation in /usr/bin. > > Yes, and I still fail to see why one cannot build a gensetdefs binary > (ie, from C source) for the target machine manually and use that. From > the looks of it that is what DFR did for his IA-64 work. I probably fail to explain it properly. In that case there's no point to continue to try... -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 12:34:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:34:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361B937B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel1.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFBD719; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:34:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (p1000180.nsr.hp.com [15.109.0.180]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id MAA02580; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:33:47 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A4117AB.F427A529@cup.hp.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:33:47 -0800 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Warner Losh Subject: Re: perl build References: <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <200012200810.BAA07142@harmony.village.org> <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> <20001220003532.D41741@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:29:07AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > I don't see what the big deal is in requiring perl is anyway. > > Because the festing pile of sh*t doesn't build properly too often. > How many reports have you seen of people who have a lot of trouble with > perl when upgrading? We should make it so one can turn Perl off in the > world build, and still be able to build a kernel. > > Once running on a new kernel and new mostly-complete userland, they can > re-try bulding the world with perl. This is a cross-build issue that can be resolved and has been resolved. I'm not aware of any outstanding problems with perl. Let me know if there's a brokenness currently... -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 15:34: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 15:33:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from netau1.alcanet.com.au (ntp.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FB237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au (mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au [139.188.23.1]) by netau1.alcanet.com.au (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06921; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:29:57 +1100 (EDT) Received: from gsmx07.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.2-32 #37641) with ESMTP id <01JXYOCTGIZ4EMWM0J@cim.alcatel.com.au>; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:30:04 +1100 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsmx07.alcatel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKNTrX72877; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:29:53 +1100 (EST envelope-from jeremyp) Content-return: prohibited Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:29:53 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-reply-to: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com>; from marcel@cup.hp.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:05:39PM -0800 To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-followup-to: Marcel Moolenaar , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20001221102952.O54775@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> Sender: jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2000-Dec-19 23:05:39 -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: >Read and weep :-) I'll go on record as thinking the perl version is more legible and more maintainable. The base system includes a number of Turing-equivalent languages: [c]sh builtins, awk, perl, C, C++, FORTH (if you include the loader), groff and (I believe) sed. gensetdefs could be written in any of these languages. If someone really wants to minimise the number of build tools, they are free to write gensetdefs using sh builtins only. One reason why the base system includes some many functionally equivalent tools is that they are targeted for different purposes. Rather than the adopt a one tool suits all purposes, I believe it's worthwhile looking at the requirements and then selecting the most appropriate tool. In this case, the need for getsetdefs to be MI whilst processing MD objects suggests that using objdump is better than directly reading the raw objects. Given the speed of both scripted versions, there isn't any need to go to a compiled language for performance reasons. Since this tool is primarily text processing, awk or perl are probably better choices than C. >I think it can do better if we can avoid the "system()" calls... The fgrep, both sed's and the sort could be done trivially in awk. Handling the "2**N" output could be done with a simple expression parser. Getting rid of the system("echo | dc") would be the hardest bit - but still isn't that difficult. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 15:36: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 15:36:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jeamland.net (rafe.jeamland.net [203.18.243.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6D137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.jeamland.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7F91A70601; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:35:49 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:35:49 +1100 From: Benno Rice To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001221103548.A10223@rafe.jeamland.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001219233816.H19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <3A40F2EB.C43F0A88@cup.hp.com> <20001220103154.A9294@dragon.nuxi.com> <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com> <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:54:32AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:54:32AM -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:38:51AM -0800, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > > The posted perl(1) and awk(1) versions should tell you what is required. > > These scripts are derived from our current C implementation in /usr/bin. > > Yes, and I still fail to see why one cannot build a gensetdefs binary > (ie, from C source) for the target machine manually and use that. From > the looks of it that is what DFR did for his IA-64 work. Because the current gensetdefs will refuse to deal with a target endianness that's different to the host's. This is why I put my support behind it in the first place. Note that personally I dislike perl, but I think that the perl version is far more readable than the sh one. If someone were to extend the C version to handle endian differences, I'd be more than happy to see that go in though. Basically, I don't care how it works, as long as it works and is maintainable. =) -- Benno Rice benno@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 19:51:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 19:51:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.dyndns.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AD237B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (q8ctfv@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by green.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBL3pSd68346; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:51:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200012210351.eBL3pSd68346@green.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: Message from Alfred Perlstein of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:18:43 PST." <20001220031843.O19572@fw.wintelcom.net> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:51:28 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Soren Schmidt [001220 02:53] wrote: > > Anyhow its a moot point, -current is so fragile its hard to use anyways... > > I'm not sure what you mean by fragile, I'm not exactly stressing my > boxes, but except for a single reboot, my machines have been fine. > > 3:14AM up 7 days, 1:31, 3 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Wed Dec 13 01:38:43 I know about me, on my UP box, and I get lockups not too infrequently. It's bearable, but a big pain... and no, it's horribly hard to debug since I just can't break to DDB from the keyboard in these cases. Current may be not that bad and getting better but it's still got it's brokenness. 10:50PM up 2 days, 21:18, 0 users, load averages: 0.58, 0.71, 1.13 FreeBSD green.dyndns.org 5.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Dec 18 00:07:51 EST 2000 green@green.dyndns.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GREEN i386 -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Dec 20 22:28:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 22:28:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506DA37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA24281 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@wall.polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eBL6Sd773356; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:28:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:28:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200012210628.eBL6Sd773356@vashon.polstra.com> To: arch@freebsd.org From: John Polstra Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <20001221103548.A10223@rafe.jeamland.net> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <3A410ACB.3CB3C32@cup.hp.com> <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001221103548.A10223@rafe.jeamland.net> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Sender: jdp@wall.polstra.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <20001221103548.A10223@rafe.jeamland.net>, Benno Rice wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:54:32AM -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > > > Yes, and I still fail to see why one cannot build a gensetdefs binary > > (ie, from C source) for the target machine manually and use that. From > > the looks of it that is what DFR did for his IA-64 work. > > Because the current gensetdefs will refuse to deal with a target endianness > that's different to the host's. Sheesh, that wouldn't be hard to fix. The C version (which I wrote, by the way) is only 375 lines total. It uses about 3 kinds of ELF headers, whose bytes could be swapped in a few lines of code each. Why anybody would want to take a perfectly good working C program that already exists and rewrite it in is a bit of a mystery to me. You folks could have fixed the existing program in about a tenth of the time you've spent ranting on this thread. IMHO piping the output of objdump into a perl script or into a shell script that calls awk, etc., is a hack. It's tolerable if you don't have anything cleaner -- but we _do_. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 0:26: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 00:26:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FEC37B6C2 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA17836; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBL8Ptt14582; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:25:55 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Garrett Wollman Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) Message-ID: <20001221002554.B14467@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: nobody@freebsd.org References: <200012202002.PAA44197@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012202002.PAA44197@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:02:40PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:02:40PM -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: > David, can you please shut up and stop trying to obstruct progress? > You're not in any position to complain about the language choices made > by *people actually doing the work* of this project. And you are? > Perl is here to stay. Get over it. Blow me. Get over it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 6:18:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 06:18:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8FF37B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nlsys.demon.co.uk ([158.152.125.33] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 1496YB-000HsW-0X; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:18:31 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03280; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:17:29 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:17:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. > : > : A true mistake that needs to be undone. > > kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes > the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't > going away any time soon... I may rewrite this tool in C at some point but I'm certainly not going back to sh+awk. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 6:18:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 06:18:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8FF37B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from nlsys.demon.co.uk ([158.152.125.33] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 1496YB-000HsW-0X; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:18:31 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03280; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:17:29 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:17:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <200012200829.BAA07311@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20001220002334.B41741@dragon.nuxi.com> "David O'Brien" writes: > : On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:21AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > : > Agreed. perl is required to build the kernel. > : > : A true mistake that needs to be undone. > > kobj will likely never be rewritten in sh. So until someone writes > the .m -> .[ch] conversion program, we're stuck with perl. kobj isn't > going away any time soon... I may rewrite this tool in C at some point but I'm certainly not going back to sh+awk. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 14:50:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 14:50:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5397537B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19327; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:50:21 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: retiring kernfs To: des@ofug.org Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG DES, I've been consider you proposal from the prospective of Legacy maintainer/developers. One of the issue dealt with at SVBUG is "Legacy". Personally, I don't use kernfs. I don't know of anyone that uses it. And I think people would be well advised to move on. However, Legacy is one of those things that cannot be ignored. My recommendation is to have a section on the website that specifically points out that items, such as this, are not "Retired". Such an informational page would help people with questions about "what happened?" and it would help people that believe that they really, really, really need it. If it would be helpful, I could help design such a page. If not, you have my opinion. Best Regards, Jessem. On 13 Dec, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Any serious objections to retiring the (long obsolete) kernfs > pseudo-file system? (I'll count any "kernfs? what's that?" replies as > "no, go ahead and remove it") > > DES To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 14:52:34 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 14:52:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDEE37B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 149EZf-000Btz-00; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:52:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:52:34 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Robert Watson Cc: Garrett Wollman , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Removing #ifdefs on LOGIN_CAP? Message-ID: <20001221225234.J40549@hand.dotat.at> References: <200012181833.NAA22274@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: fanf@dotat.at Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Watson wrote: > >I'd like to migrate all the programs that literally manipulate user or >login contexts to using well-defined entry points for doing so, reducing >code redundancy, as well as the opportunity for inconsistency and error. >It also opens the door for additional work relating to PAM and user >context management with information sourced from directory services, which >is nice. That will probably mean leaving some tools setuid and setgid >while we work on a better answer. Presumably that better answer will include some sort of accommodation for third-party software that is mired in old Unix assumptions? Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "You realize there's a government directive stating that there is no such thing as a flying saucer?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 15: 0:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 15:00:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46D4537B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBLN0Ck17524; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:00:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:00:11 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: opentrax@email.com Cc: des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: retiring kernfs Message-ID: <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 02:50:21PM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * opentrax@email.com [001221 14:50] wrote: > DES, > I've been consider you proposal from the prospective of > Legacy maintainer/developers. One of the issue dealt with at > SVBUG is "Legacy". > > Personally, I don't use kernfs. I don't know of anyone > that uses it. And I think people would be well advised to > move on. > > However, Legacy is one of those things that cannot be > ignored. My recommendation is to have a section on the > website that specifically points out that items, such > as this, are not "Retired". Such an informational page > would help people with questions about "what happened?" > and it would help people that believe that they really, > really, really need it. > > If it would be helpful, I could help design such a page. > If not, you have my opinion. Actually, building on that idea, it would be really cool to have an app that would allow us to generate changelog type messages that would automagically get submitted to a newspage. Although each submittion would need approval. This would allow us to announce deprication of interfaces as well as new features. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 17: 1:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:01:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.viasoft.com.cn (unknown [61.153.1.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D15E37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from William ([192.168.1.98]) by mail.viasoft.com.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA32182; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:54:07 +0800 Message-ID: <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William> From: "David Xu" To: "Alfred Perlstein" , Cc: , References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Subject: Re: retiring kernfs Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:59:08 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ZG8gRnJlZUJTRCBoYXZlIGNoYW5nZSBsb2c/IEkgaGF2ZSBuZXZlciBzZWVuIGl0LCBJIGNhbiBz ZWUgY2hhbmcgbG9nIG9uIE5ldEJTRCBhbmQgT3BlbkJTRCANCndlYnNpdGUsIHRoZXkgZGlkIGJl dHRlciB0aGFuIEZyZWVCU0QsICBteSBmZWVsaW5nIG9mIEZyZWVCU0QgaXMgaXQgaXMgYSAgbXlz dGVyeSB3b3JrLCB3ZSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IA0Ka25vdyB3aGF0IGlzIGNoYW5nZWQgYmV0d2VlbiBv bGQgYW5kIG5ldyB2ZXJzaW9uLCAgd2hhdCBwcm9ibGVtIGlzIGZpeGVkLCBhbmQgaWYgaXQgaXMg d29ydGh5IHRvIA0KdXBncmFkZSwgIGFsbCBpcyBteXN0ZXJ5LCBzb21lIGNoYW5nZSBsb2cgaW5m b3JtYXRpb25zIGluIFJFTEVBU0UuVFhUIGlzIG5vdCBlbm91Z2gsICBpdCdzIHRvbyBzaW1wbGUs DQpoYXJkbHkgdXNlZnVsLg0KDQpEYXZpZCBYdQ0KDQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0t LS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkFsZnJlZCBQZXJsc3RlaW4iIDxicmlnaHRAd2ludGVsY29tLm5ldD4NClRv OiA8b3BlbnRyYXhAZW1haWwuY29tPg0KQ2M6IDxkZXNAb2Z1Zy5vcmc+OyA8YXJjaEBGcmVlQlNE Lk9SRz4NClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMjIsIDIwMDAgNzowMCBBTQ0KU3ViamVjdDog UmU6IHJldGlyaW5nIGtlcm5mcw0KDQoNCj4gKiBvcGVudHJheEBlbWFpbC5jb20gPG9wZW50cmF4 QGVtYWlsLmNvbT4gWzAwMTIyMSAxNDo1MF0gd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4gREVTLA0KPiA+ICAgICBJJ3Zl IGJlZW4gY29uc2lkZXIgeW91IHByb3Bvc2FsIGZyb20gdGhlIHByb3NwZWN0aXZlIG9mIA0KPiA+ IExlZ2FjeSBtYWludGFpbmVyL2RldmVsb3BlcnMuIE9uZSBvZiB0aGUgaXNzdWUgZGVhbHQgd2l0 aCBhdA0KPiA+IFNWQlVHIGlzICJMZWdhY3kiLiANCj4gPiANCj4gPiAgICAgUGVyc29uYWxseSwg SSBkb24ndCB1c2Uga2VybmZzLiBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgb2YgYW55b25lDQo+ID4gdGhhdCB1c2Vz IGl0LiBBbmQgSSB0aGluayBwZW9wbGUgd291bGQgYmUgd2VsbCBhZHZpc2VkIHRvDQo+ID4gbW92 ZSBvbi4gDQo+ID4gDQo+ID4gICAgIEhvd2V2ZXIsIExlZ2FjeSBpcyBvbmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgdGhp bmdzIHRoYXQgY2Fubm90IGJlDQo+ID4gaWdub3JlZC4gTXkgcmVjb21tZW5kYXRpb24gaXMgdG8g aGF2ZSBhIHNlY3Rpb24gb24gdGhlDQo+ID4gd2Vic2l0ZSB0aGF0IHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSBwb2lu dHMgb3V0IHRoYXQgaXRlbXMsIHN1Y2ggDQo+ID4gYXMgdGhpcywgYXJlIG5vdCAiUmV0aXJlZCIu IFN1Y2ggYW4gaW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbCBwYWdlDQo+ID4gd291bGQgaGVscCBwZW9wbGUgd2l0aCBx dWVzdGlvbnMgYWJvdXQgIndoYXQgaGFwcGVuZWQ/Ig0KPiA+IGFuZCBpdCB3b3VsZCBoZWxwIHBl b3BsZSB0aGF0IGJlbGlldmUgdGhhdCB0aGV5IHJlYWxseSwNCj4gPiByZWFsbHksIHJlYWxseSBu ZWVkIGl0Lg0KPiA+IA0KPiA+ICAgICBJZiBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBoZWxwZnVsLCBJIGNvdWxkIGhl bHAgZGVzaWduIHN1Y2ggYSBwYWdlLg0KPiA+IElmIG5vdCwgeW91IGhhdmUgbXkgb3Bpbmlvbi4N Cj4gDQo+IEFjdHVhbGx5LCBidWlsZGluZyBvbiB0aGF0IGlkZWEsIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIHJlYWxs eSBjb29sIHRvIGhhdmUNCj4gYW4gYXBwIHRoYXQgd291bGQgYWxsb3cgdXMgdG8gZ2VuZXJhdGUg Y2hhbmdlbG9nIHR5cGUgbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhhdA0KPiB3b3VsZCBhdXRvbWFnaWNhbGx5IGdldCBz dWJtaXR0ZWQgdG8gYSBuZXdzcGFnZS4gIEFsdGhvdWdoIGVhY2gNCj4gc3VibWl0dGlvbiB3b3Vs ZCBuZWVkIGFwcHJvdmFsLg0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBhbGxvdyB1cyB0byBhbm5vdW5jZSBk ZXByaWNhdGlvbiBvZiBpbnRlcmZhY2VzIGFzIHdlbGwNCj4gYXMgbmV3IGZlYXR1cmVzLg0KPiAN Cj4gLS0gDQo+IC1BbGZyZWQgUGVybHN0ZWluIC0gW2JyaWdodEB3aW50ZWxjb20ubmV0fGFsZnJl ZEBmcmVlYnNkLm9yZ10NCj4gIkkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgaGVhcnQgb2YgYSBjaGlsZDsgSSBrZWVwIGl0 IGluIGEgamFyIG9uIG15IGRlc2suIg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IFRvIFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlOiBzZW5kIG1h aWwgdG8gbWFqb3Jkb21vQEZyZWVCU0Qub3JnDQo+IHdpdGggInVuc3Vic2NyaWJlIGZyZWVic2Qt YXJjaCIgaW4gdGhlIGJvZHkgb2YgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UNCg== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 17: 7:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:07:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from falla.videotron.net (falla.videotron.net [205.151.222.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 324F637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from modemcable213.3-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca ([24.201.3.213]) by falla.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0G5Y000GB34BLL@falla.videotron.net> for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:07:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:08:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bosko Milekic Subject: Re: retiring kernfs In-reply-to: <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: opentrax@email.com, des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > This would allow us to announce deprication of interfaces as well > as new features. I second this. I think it would be very convenient to be able to announce to all people working on the kernel source changes in interfaces, _particularily_, in one central place. Somebody please correct me if this is already being done. If not, does anybody have anything against doing something like this? Or, rather, any suggestions to how to do it conveniently and painlessly (i.e. not much hassle for committers and maintainers who may be drawn to keep it up-to-date)? We need something that will "automatically" generate an addition to a "Changelog" like file, as proposed here. > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] > "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." Cheers, Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 17: 7:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:07:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409E037B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBM178k21331; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:07:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:07:08 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: David Xu Cc: opentrax@email.com, des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: retiring kernfs Message-ID: <20001221170707.C19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William>; from davidx@viasoft.com.cn on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:59:08AM +0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * David Xu [001221 17:02] wrote: > do FreeBSD have change log? I have never seen it, I can see chang log on NetBSD and OpenBSD > website, they did better than FreeBSD, my feeling of FreeBSD is it is a mystery work, we just don't > know what is changed between old and new version, what problem is fixed, and if it is worthy to > upgrade, all is mystery, some change log informations in RELEASE.TXT is not enough, it's too simple, > hardly useful. How wonderful of you to volunteer to help... -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 17:34:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:34:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.viasoft.com.cn (unknown [61.153.1.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4FE37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from William ([192.168.1.98]) by mail.viasoft.com.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA32337; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:26:23 +0800 Message-ID: <000301c06bb7$05ff79b0$6201a8c0@William> From: "David Xu" To: "Alfred Perlstein" Cc: References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William> <20001221170707.C19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Subject: Re: retiring kernfs Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:27:19 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG aG93IGNhbiBJIGJlIGEgdm9sdW50ZWVyIHRvIGhlbHAgRnJlZUJTRCB0byBzZXR1cCBhIENoYW5n TG9nIHN5c3RlbSA/IEkgY2FuIGRvIGl0IGluIG15IGZyZWUgdGltZSwNCkkgYW0gYSBzb2Z0d2Fy ZSBlbmdpbmVlciBhdCBWSUEgU09GVFdBUkUsICBoZXJlIDcwJSBtYWNoaW5lcyBhcmUgTGludXgg bWFjaGluZSwgMzAlIGFyZSBNJA0KbWFjaGluZSwgSSBhbSB1bmhhcHB5LCAgSSB3YW50IHRvIGhl bHAgRnJlZUJTRCB0byBpbXByb3ZlIHNvbWV0aGluZyB3aGF0IEkgY2FuIGRvLg0KDQpEYXZpZCBY dQ0KDQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkFsZnJlZCBQZXJsc3Rl aW4iIDxicmlnaHRAd2ludGVsY29tLm5ldD4NClRvOiAiRGF2aWQgWHUiIDxkYXZpZHhAdmlhc29m dC5jb20uY24+DQpDYzogPG9wZW50cmF4QGVtYWlsLmNvbT47IDxkZXNAb2Z1Zy5vcmc+OyA8YXJj aEBGcmVlQlNELk9SRz4NClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMjIsIDIwMDAgOTowNyBBTQ0K U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IHJldGlyaW5nIGtlcm5mcw0KDQoNCj4gKiBEYXZpZCBYdSA8ZGF2aWR4QHZp YXNvZnQuY29tLmNuPiBbMDAxMjIxIDE3OjAyXSB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBkbyBGcmVlQlNEIGhhdmUg Y2hhbmdlIGxvZz8gSSBoYXZlIG5ldmVyIHNlZW4gaXQsIEkgY2FuIHNlZSBjaGFuZyBsb2cgb24g TmV0QlNEIGFuZCBPcGVuQlNEIA0KPiA+IHdlYnNpdGUsIHRoZXkgZGlkIGJldHRlciB0aGFuIEZy ZWVCU0QsICBteSBmZWVsaW5nIG9mIEZyZWVCU0QgaXMgaXQgaXMgYSAgbXlzdGVyeSB3b3JrLCB3 ZSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IA0KPiA+IGtub3cgd2hhdCBpcyBjaGFuZ2VkIGJldHdlZW4gb2xkIGFuZCBu ZXcgdmVyc2lvbiwgIHdoYXQgcHJvYmxlbSBpcyBmaXhlZCwgYW5kIGlmIGl0IGlzIHdvcnRoeSB0 byANCj4gPiB1cGdyYWRlLCAgYWxsIGlzIG15c3RlcnksIHNvbWUgY2hhbmdlIGxvZyBpbmZvcm1h dGlvbnMgaW4gUkVMRUFTRS5UWFQgaXMgbm90IGVub3VnaCwgIGl0J3MgdG9vIHNpbXBsZSwNCj4g PiBoYXJkbHkgdXNlZnVsLg0KPiANCj4gSG93IHdvbmRlcmZ1bCBvZiB5b3UgdG8gdm9sdW50ZWVy IHRvIGhlbHAuLi4NCj4gDQo+IC1BbGZyZWQNCg0K To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 17:58: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:58:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from point.osg.gov.bc.ca (point.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.102.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806A837B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by point.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id RAA13717; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:56:43 -0800 Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca(142.32.110.29) via SMTP by point.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpda13715; Thu Dec 21 17:56:35 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.11.1/8.9.1) id eBM1uT499137; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from cwsys9.cwsent.com(10.2.2.1), claiming to be "cwsys.cwsent.com" via SMTP by passer9.cwsent.com, id smtpdW99135; Thu Dec 21 17:55:51 2000 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cwsys.cwsent.com (8.11.1/8.9.1) id eBM1to975522; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:55:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200012220155.eBM1to975522@cwsys.cwsent.com> Received: from localhost.cwsent.com(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "cwsys" via SMTP by localhost.cwsent.com, id smtpdL75518; Thu Dec 21 17:55:14 2000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Reply-To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-OS: FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE X-Sender: cy To: Bosko Milekic Cc: Alfred Perlstein , opentrax@email.com, des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: retiring kernfs In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:08:20 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:55:14 -0800 Sender: cy@uumail.gov.bc.ca Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Bosko Milekic writes: > > On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > This would allow us to announce deprication of interfaces as well > > as new features. > > I second this. I think it would be very convenient to be able to > announce to all people working on the kernel source changes in > interfaces, _particularily_, in one central place. Somebody please > correct me if this is already being done. If not, does anybody have > anything against doing something like this? Or, rather, any suggestions > to how to do it conveniently and painlessly (i.e. not much hassle for > committers and maintainers who may be drawn to keep it up-to-date)? > > We need something that will "automatically" generate an addition to > a "Changelog" like file, as proposed here. What about the commitlogs? I find them extremely handy. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team Internet: Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA Province of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 20:59:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 20:59:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5973D37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA32633; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:59:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:59:59 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: David Xu Cc: Alfred Perlstein , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: retiring kernfs Message-ID: <20001221205959.C32404@citusc.usc.edu> References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William> <20001221170707.C19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <000301c06bb7$05ff79b0$6201a8c0@William> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="VywGB/WGlW4DM4P8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <000301c06bb7$05ff79b0$6201a8c0@William>; from davidx@viasoft.com.cn on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:27:19AM +0800 Sender: kris@citusc.usc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --VywGB/WGlW4DM4P8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:27:19AM +0800, David Xu wrote: > how can I be a volunteer to help FreeBSD to setup a ChangLog system ? I can do it in my free time, > I am a software engineer at VIA SOFTWARE, here 70% machines are Linux machine, 30% are M$ > machine, I am unhappy, I want to help FreeBSD to improve something what I can do. See the cvs2cl port. Figure out how to integrate this with the project CVS repo and generate a changelog suitable for automated posting on the website - this should be a fairly easy project, actually. Send-pr or talk to one of the doc committers (doc@freebsd.org) when done. Kris --VywGB/WGlW4DM4P8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6Qt/PWry0BWjoQKURAk/rAJ48r7tMa4YJgJba9tRXSs5qRhmk9gCgvXzr HKLoRJPwobHBJv1ouWIo9rw= =pR29 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --VywGB/WGlW4DM4P8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Dec 21 22:24:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 22:24:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wall.polstra.com (rtrwan160.accessone.com [206.213.115.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5B037B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from vashon.polstra.com (vashon.polstra.com [206.213.73.13]) by wall.polstra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00369 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:24:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp@wall.polstra.com) Received: (from jdp@localhost) by vashon.polstra.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eBM6OA575353; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:24:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jdp) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:24:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200012220624.eBM6OA575353@vashon.polstra.com> To: arch@freebsd.org From: John Polstra Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: gensetdefs using sh(1),sed(1),grep(1) and awk(1) In-Reply-To: <200012210628.eBL6Sd773356@vashon.polstra.com> References: <3A405A43.5C10697C@cup.hp.com> <20001220115432.B10298@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001221103548.A10223@rafe.jeamland.net> <200012210628.eBL6Sd773356@vashon.polstra.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Sender: jdp@wall.polstra.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Having thought about it some more today ... I think what we ought to do is not improve gensetdefs but rather eliminate the need for it. That is feasible but will require a little bit of work. The binutils ld has the necessary linker magic to support generating linker sets in ELF without any special tools. I looked into it a long time ago when working on the switch to ELF, but I'll have to look again (probably after the holidays) to remember exactly how it's done. The catch is that with the built-in linker sets you don't quite get the information we currently rely upon. In particular, you don't get the int which contains the number of elements in the set. All you get is a NULL-terminated vector of pointers to the members of the set. This is adequate for most of our uses of linker sets, but not for all of them. Some of the existing code uses the count word directly. At the time of the ELF conversion it seemed more expedient to write gensetdefs than to track down and fix all of the places where the count word was used. As I recall, there was also a problem involving some static initialization used in defining sysctls. We should go thru all of the uses of linker sets (there aren't that many of them in the whole source tree) and make them use a more abstract API that we can reasonably expect to support on any target system. The API would be along the lines of a SET_FOREACH() macro in the spirit of the *_FOREACH macros defined in . There _could_ be a SET_COUNT() macro to give the total number of elements in a set. The easy way to do this would be to just have it count the elements, but that's fairly inefficient. I also toyed around with computing the counts just once at system initialization time, and that may be feasible. The idea is to have a master set-of-all-linker-sets which is itself a linker set. At initialization time, you iterate over the members of the master set and count and record the length of each member. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Disappointment is a good sign of basic intelligence." -- Chögyam Trungpa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 23 10:30:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 10:30:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (grouter.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D701937B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from grondar.za (root@gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBNIOXF99289; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:24:38 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200012231824.eBNIOXF99289@gratis.grondar.za> To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: perl build References: <3A4117AB.F427A529@cup.hp.com> In-Reply-To: <3A4117AB.F427A529@cup.hp.com> ; from Marcel Moolenaar "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:33:47 PST." Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:24:39 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is a cross-build issue that can be resolved and has been resolved. > I'm not aware of any outstanding problems with perl. Let me know if > there's a brokenness currently... Its "broken" if you do a 'make obj depend' in /usr/src with an empty /usr/obj because miniperl does not exist. I don't know how easy that is to fix, or even if it is worth it. M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 23 22:57:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 22:57:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6886237B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A59a-0000Z7-00; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:01:11 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A459F36.4E3E1CF1@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:01:10 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Xu Cc: Alfred Perlstein , opentrax@email.com, des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: retiring kernfs References: <200012212250.OAA19327@spammie.svbug.com> <20001221150009.A19572@fw.wintelcom.net> <001701c06bb2$6d026c80$6201a8c0@William> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Xu wrote: > > do FreeBSD have change log? I have never seen it, I can see chang log on NetBSD and OpenBSD > website, they did better than FreeBSD, my feeling of FreeBSD is it is a mystery work, we just don't > know what is changed between old and new version, what problem is fixed, and if it is worthy to > upgrade, all is mystery, some change log informations in RELEASE.TXT is not enough, it's too simple, > hardly useful. How can it be a mystery when the entire CVS repository is available on-line? http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/ in case you didn't know. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message