From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 1:19:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B92D437B7C3 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 01:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 25698 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2000 09:19:42 -0000 Received: from erstumper.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.7) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 26 Mar 2000 09:19:42 -0000 Message-ID: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:23:47 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD") References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > most people to be armed and trained. So the solution for schoolyard gun massacres is for *all* kids to be armed at all times? > Frankly, I believe the law should not try to ban firearms. It should > require everyone except Buddhists to own and carry a firearm all the time. > And, of course, to know how to use it properly. And there's the flaw in your argument. In an ideal world, with everyone well-educated in the correct use of their firearm, your ideas might actually work. In the real world, where people are generally (a) lazy and (b) stupid all you get is lots of schoolyard shootings because parents don't know how to lock up guns, and foreign students getting shot for knocking on the wrong door and speaking in japanese. Not to mention a McDonalds full of dead bodies because everyone tried to shoot the spree killer, and missed, hitting the other diners. Fundamentally, you seem to be arguing for an arms race. The enemy (criminals) have guns, therefore we need guns. I'd argue that human history would demonstrate that such an arms race is not an effective process, except to the arms manufacturers. Frankly, the fervor americans show for gun ownership in the face of such overwhelming levels of gun-inspired violence is literally incomprehensible. From where I stand it can only be explained as some kind of national mental illness, or something in the water. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 2:39:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sblake.comcen.com.au (sblake.comcen.com.au [203.23.236.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C8237B765 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 02:39:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aunty@sblake.comcen.com.au) Received: (from aunty@localhost) by sblake.comcen.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22352; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:40:27 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from aunty) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:40:27 +1000 From: aunty To: Mark Ovens Cc: Doug Barton , Jay Nelson , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Guns and impotence [was: dangers to intelligent people] Message-ID: <20000326204027.A21684@comcen.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Ovens , Doug Barton , Jay Nelson , Paul Richards , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> <20000325214724.B234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20000325214724.B234@parish> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 09:47:25PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 01:14:39PM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > > As an example, just look at what is happening in Australia. They > > systematically disarmed their citizens, first going after "assault" > > weapons, then handguns, rifles, shotguns, etc. All with perfectly > > reasonable sounding arguments about how much safer they would be. Now > > that the citizens can't fight back they are slowly but surely turning it > > into a police state. Draconinan censorship of the internet, and other > > extremely distasteful laws are being passed willy-nilly. The two are unrelated, or not in the sense you imply. Our current government is so despised that for the first time in our history most Aussies would love to get stuck into the PM, but the queue to do so would be so long that only a gun could reach the distance. Few of us have guns, but hey, why take chances. A while ago a bloke went crazy with a gun when he thought he saw a crowd of prime ministers, and the laws changed pretty quick after that, especially when the gun owners realised they could get the governmenet to buy back their old guns for more than they were worth. > That's an extremely cynical view. I don't know about Australian gun > law, perhaps someone from Oz would like to comment. Hardly anyone has guns in our cities. They're not game to. You see, it's a cultural thing. The only city people I've known to have guns have been pissy little cowardly men who need a gun to make them feel potent. If you're a city bloke and you feel you need a gun, there must be something wrong with you. If you're a sheila you never need a gun. Just find the sissy who's dependent on a gun and he's a push-over, the paranoid little runt, sit on his hands and you can poke out his eyes with a finger. Then any normal man who can get up without an extra tool will be able to protect you when the bloke with the prosthetic device calls Mama to chase you away. But pathetic little gun weenies are real hard to find in the big towns. I guess in the USA it's the good guys who carry the guns. It wouldn't be fair to compare the two then. :,) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 2:49:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neodymium.btinternet.com (neodymium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E2F37B765 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 02:49:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.162.135] (helo=parish.my.domain) by neodymium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12ZAbG-0005z5-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:48:55 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00665 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:49:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:49:11 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and impotence [was: dangers to intelligent people] Message-ID: <20000326114911.C234@parish> References: <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DD2C3F.3F17470B@gorean.org> <20000325214724.B234@parish> <20000326204027.A21684@comcen.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000326204027.A21684@comcen.com.au>; from aunty@comcen.com.au on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 08:40:27PM +1000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 08:40:27PM +1000, aunty wrote: > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 09:47:25PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > [snip] > > That's an extremely cynical view. I don't know about Australian gun > > law, perhaps someone from Oz would like to comment. > > Hardly anyone has guns in our cities. They're not game to. You see, > it's a cultural thing. The only city people I've known to have guns > have been pissy little cowardly men who need a gun to make them feel > potent. If you're a city bloke and you feel you need a gun, there must > be something wrong with you. If you're a sheila you never need a gun. > Just find the sissy who's dependent on a gun and he's a push-over, the > paranoid little runt, sit on his hands and you can poke out his eyes > with a finger. Then any normal man who can get up without an extra tool > will be able to protect you when the bloke with the prosthetic device > calls Mama to chase you away. But pathetic little gun weenies are real > hard to find in the big towns. > ROFL :) > I guess in the USA it's the good guys who carry the guns. > It wouldn't be fair to compare the two then. > > > :,) > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 4:17:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5917D37B73F for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 04:17:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.91.17] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12ZBy7-00064w-00; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:16:35 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00783; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:16:40 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:16:39 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000326131639.E234@parish> References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 01:53:10AM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 01:53:10AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 11:16:56PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > I have a 13-year old daughter and her freedom is severely curtailed > > (by me and my wife) compared to the freedom we had at that age (early > > '70s). OK, so this isn't specifically because of guns, but because of > > a general increase in lawlessness which threatens her safety. Even so, > > she has had her freedom taken away. > > But how much of that is real and how much is perception? I don't have > crime figures for GB at my finger tips, but I suspect things have not > changed all that much in real numbers since the 70's. I'm a USA'n and > I happen to know that _reported_ crimes and people's perception of the > crime rate have steadily increased, while the actual occurance of > crimes has not really changed all that much and has definately dropped > in the last decade. (Note I am strictly talking violent crime; like > those Mark listed.) > I believe that occurrence has increase, although by how much I'm not sure, but you are almost certainly correct that perception has increased, and probably more so, due mainly to improved communication; the chances of hearing about a crime committed several hundred miles away (remember, that's a long way over here) is much, much greater than 20-30 years ago. > > A popular TV programme over here is "Police, Camera, Action" which > > comprises footage from the video cameras used in police cars and > > helicopters and includes clips from many countries including the US. > > Whilst a lot of it is amusing and entertaining some of it is decidedly > > scary. One clip from an American police car showed the officer pulling > > over a car full of kids. He walked to the driver's door and the driver > > just shot him with a handgun. The officer was unhurt, apart from some > > heavy bruising, thanks to his bullet-proof vest. Although it didn't > > specify in the programme it is perfectly possible that the kid may > > have owned the gun legitimately. How can anyone justify the "freedom" > > to own firearms when that sort of thing happens? > > Well, right there we see a problem with how the media focuses on the > extremes. Police officers have been shot by legal and illegal guns as > long as their have been guns and police. You bring this up like it > happens all of the time, and it does not. We just get it in our faces > every single time it does, makes good press. You point out that you do > not know if the gun is legal or illegal... so what is the weight of > the argument? > No, I wasn't suggesting that it happens all the time. I consider myself intelligent enough to realize that, even in the US, it is the exception rather than the rule. The point I was making was that the chances of this happening are much greater under US gun law than UK gun law. In his instance the car had been stopped for a routine driving offence, if it had been stopped because the occupants had just held up (or were suspected of holding up) a petrol station, for example, I'm sure the officer would have been a lot more defensive in his approach. > > Do you own a gun? If so, why do you own it? Have you ever used it in > > anger? > > No. I don't. No. But the last one is a good point. If you own a gun, > you are more likely to be killed by it than any other. Can you elaborate? Is this due to accidently shooting yourself or being shot by someone else using your gun? > You are also more likely to be killed by a gun than someone who does > not own one. Again, can you elaborate? Is this because a criminal is more likely to shoot you if you, his victim, pull a gun to defend yourself? If so then does it not disprove the theory of those who are saying that firearms related crime/deaths would be reduced if *everyone* was armed. > Safer for everyone if you don't have it; someone else > might use _your_ gun in anger on _you._ > > > Americans and Britons will probably, for the most part, never agree on > > the subject of firearms as we grew up in countries whose gun laws are > > at opposite extremes. > > Oh, well, as a USA'n, I must say things probably are not too > different. I think any arguments that handguns and assault weapons > have any redeeming quailities is silly, look at the numbers. I grew up > around rifles and shotguns, and I see value beyond the risks. > I acknowledge that the there is much more justification for firearms in the US if you live, or go visiting, in the mountains etc, because you have some pretty dangerous wildlife which we don't (although if Deliverance is realistic then the wildlife is the least of your worries ;-)) but I would imagine that a rifle, or shotgun, is a better weapon in that situation than a handgun. > And for those who are defending themselves from the Feds, ask that > crew at Waco or Ruby Ridge how well that works. If you're a small > group and the gov't wants you, it don't matter how many guns you > have. There were injustices and abuses of power there, but the guns on > either side did not help at all. Personally, I'm not afraid of the > Feds turning all bad on us because (a) they just are not that smart or > have the vision (remember a President only serves 8 years max, if he > can't disarm enough before his term is up and declares martial law, > why start the process?) to plan something like that and (b) I know too > many military people and they are the most patriotic bunch around > and are not about to be part of a military state (and would not be > tricked into it because of (a)). The ATF, FBI, NSA, etc. don't give me > warm fuzzies, but they _are_ accountable soley by the fact that if > they piss off the people enough, then they piss off Congress enough, > then they don't get $$$... And that is the worst fear of any gov't > agency, cuts in appropriations. One of the things the Founding Fathers > did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were > written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. It costs the > tax payer some serious pain in pork barrel money, but it's worth the > popular control on the rest. OK, give the Brit Parliament for being > the model there. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 4:17:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from praseodumium.btinternet.com (praseodumium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388AD37B7A5 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 04:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.91.17] (helo=parish.my.domain) by praseodumium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12ZBy9-00064w-00; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:16:38 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00730; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:15:05 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:15:05 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000326121505.D234@parish> References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:58:10AM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:58:10AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 22:27 25-03-2000 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > >Perhaps if those who preached about civil liberties focussed on the > >rights of victims more than the rights of criminals we may get > >somewhere. > > The victims have the right to carry firearms. Unfortunately, most people do > not carry them, many would not even know how to use them. Had the victims > been armed and trained, most of them would not have been victimized. > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > most people to be armed and trained. > IOW it would be a deterrent? Somehow I don't think so. How effective a deterrent has the death penalty been in states that has restored it, i.e. has capital crime fallen significantly in those states since restoration? OK, perhaps this isn't a totally fair comparison as your victim pulling a gun on you is much more immediate than the long, long route to the electric chair. > I used to be a volunteer deputy sheriff for six years. Before that, I never > owned a firearm. Did you ever feel that should have had one? Presumably not otherwise you would have gone out and bought one. > When I became a deputy I quickly found out that most > police officers I talked to wished every citizen were armed. Hmm, do you not think that view is primarily because the risk to police officers would be reduced? If the whole populace is armed they can sort it out amongst themselves and by the time the police arrive on the scene there's just a pile of bodies to clear up, no-one left to shoot at the officers. > At about that > time a gunman walked into a California McDonald's and massacred people > there. My firearms instructor was quick to point out that if at least one > other person inside had a gun and knew how to use it, it would have been > the gunman who'd end up massacred. > That pre-supposes of course that the gunman isn't well trained in the use firearms, which would be very likely if everyone was armed, as you propose below. The gunman, of course, would still have the advantage in the element of surprise. > Frankly, I believe the law should not try to ban firearms. It should > require everyone except Buddhists to own and carry a firearm all the time. > And, of course, to know how to use it properly. > How do I become a Buddhist ;-) > Cheers, > Adam > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 5:39:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA90537B7C5 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 05:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 1879 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2000 13:39:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 26 Mar 2000 13:39:03 -0000 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:09:03 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Craig Harding Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD") In-Reply-To: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This seems to be more a religious debate than anything. So to stick my oar in, by analogy with another religion: communism. Here in some parts of India there are still people who believe capitalism is evil and exploitative and therefore communism is the only true way. The only argument I can make is to look at the examples: America v/s Russia, Western Europe v/s Eastern Europe, West v/s East Germany, North v/s South Korea, and see which did better (and today many people will agree that India's leftist leanings held it up for decades)... but it's impossible to *prove* that communism doesn't work. So I don't argue after a while. It's the same thing here. Empirically, there's only one country that's really famous for frequent school shootings and stuff like that, and that's the country with the most liberal gun-control laws. But that doesn't prove anything: it's impossible to prove anything, so the debate will carry on endlessly. Even if America changes its laws, and crime drops after that, the gun advocates will either attribute it to something else, or deny that things have improved at all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 6: 8:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB78337BA85 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 06:08:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id QAA19695 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:08:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9298B8869; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:32:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 13:32:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000326133218.A44329@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:58:10AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to G. Adam Stanislav: > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > most people to be armed and trained. Except that having most people carrying arms, you're raising the bar for criminals because those who really want to commit crimes will be expecting to be met with arms and will behave with that in mind. They won't hesit to fire first and you end up with more people shot. That's not a solution. I think that the US way of thinking is far too utopian. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 7:16:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (ha1.rdc1.wa.home.com [24.0.2.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AD637B5E8 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from johnmpurser@home.com) Received: from c37259a ([24.9.57.64]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with SMTP id <20000326151621.WZAW12749.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@c37259a> for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:16:21 -0800 Reply-To: From: "John Purser" To: Subject: Spam e-mail headers Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 07:14:12 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I'm trying to track down the person to complain to about some SPAM I'm receiving. My ISP (@home.com) is no help. When I complain to them I just get a form letter telling me what their definition of Spam is and according to them unsolicited commercial e-mail is not spam unless you receive the same letter several times! I tried finding several domain web pages but kept winding up at a domain name auction site which did not list the domains I was looking for. Anybody got any (useful) ideas? John Purser Return-Path: Received: from h3.mail.home.com ([24.2.2.27]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <20000326081639.USHJ12749.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@h3.mail.home.com> for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:39 -0800 Received: from mx1-e.mail.home.com (mx1-e.mail.home.com [24.2.2.29]) by h3.mail.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA17883; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:38 -0800 (PST) From: kasner@musician.org Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.103]) by mx1-e.mail.home.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24197; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.prodigy.net (MIAMB106-30.splitrock.net [209.156.28.214]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA67476; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 03:15:16 -0500 Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) To: blind@secondsight.org Message-ID: <007010ck246g$12li9825$jjfcla7@cod> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 00 00:58:57 EST Subject: Blind Man See's A Way Reply-To: kasner@musician.org X-PMFLAGS: 34077845 0 X-UIDL: 2510431056a78aeb1b128fda426c9a5e Comments: Authenticated sender is *********************************************************************** Currently boycotting Amazon.com To find out why visit: http://perl.oreilly.com/cgi-bin/amazon_patent.comments.pl For an alternative visit: http://www.fatbrain.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 9:22:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4C937BA32 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:22:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:23:49 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:22:57 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Guns ans roses In-Reply-To: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:23 26-03-2000 +1200, Craig Harding wrote: >So the solution for schoolyard gun massacres is for *all* kids to be >armed at all times? Not kids. Adults. As for kids, they should be taught what guns do. As I said before, kids should be taking to a range and let experiment with firearms (under proper supervision, of course) because the main problem with kids shooting kids is that they do not realize the harm can cause with firearms until it is too late. You do not see people trained in martial arts killing other people, do you (at least not in the big way people untrained in the use of firearms do). Do you know why? Because part of martial arts training is learning the damage you can do. When I first studied martial arts, I wondered why on earth would I be required to do such a thing as break wooden boards. It seemed macho and contrary to the peaceful spirit of martial arts. Looking at it back, I realize it had nothing to do with being macho. It taught me a lesson without telling me it was a lesson. Knowing how easy it is to break wooden boards in so many ways makes it clear to me how much easier it is to break somebody's bones, kill someone with a single punch or a kick. That awareness is important. Most people are not interested in killing others. Most martial artists will think twice before getting involved in a fist fight precisely because they know they would most likely win it, and do so with serious bodily harm to the other person(s) involved. >And there's the flaw in your argument. It's not an argument, it's an opinion. >In an ideal world, with everyone >well-educated in the correct use of their firearm, your ideas might >actually work. That problem is correctable. Everyone should be required to get proper training in the use of firearms. And I don't mean going through a simple lecture. Go through at least a hundred hours of basic firearms training. There you will not only learn how to aim without missing. There you would have to shoot at targets and see them destroyed. There you would develop the awareness of what you are capable. Cars are dangerous. So everyone is required to go through proper driving training. Why not require proper firearms training? >[...] and foreign students getting >shot for knocking on the wrong door and speaking in japanese. Obviously the idiot(s) who killed that student did not go through the firearms training I would make mandatory. > Not to >mention a McDonalds full of dead bodies because everyone tried to shoot >the spree killer, and missed, hitting the other diners. Not if they were trained. >Fundamentally, you seem to be arguing for an arms race. The enemy >(criminals) have guns, therefore we need guns. No. I am not arguing, I am expressing my opinions. Nor am I saying we *need* guns. I am looking at reality, as it is in the US. Gun ownership is a big tradition within American culture. This is a fact of life. Any kind of regulation needs to account for that fact. It is not possible to take all guns away. If that were attempted in the US, what so many people argue would happen: Criminals would have weapons, others would not. It is more sensible, given the existing traditions, attitudes, and facts of life, to require all Americans to be trained in the proper use of firearms. In my six years as deputy sheriff, I carried a gun on my belt. Not once did I have to use it, except during the mandatory training and annual testing on the range. It was not just me. During those six years, we had one case of a deputy firing a single shot at an attacker, and all he did was scratch his butt. I have talked to many police officers who spent their entire lives in police work. None of them ever had to shoot or was shot at. Of course, they all were properly trained. That means they knew: - how to draw, aim, shoot; - how to avoid the above; - what damage they would do; - how to retain their guns (not have the other guy take it); - that guns are "always loaded." In other cultures, situation is different. Different attitudes, different expectations. I did not grow up in the US, so I know of the differences. It makes little sense to me to see Americans telling Australians what they should do, or the other way round. Personally, I am neither pro-guns, nor anti-guns. All I am saying that is a society in which gun ownership is viewed as important, people should be trained in proper use of firearms, and trained well. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 9:31:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412BF37BA3B for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id TAA28526 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:31:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 205488869; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:29:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:29:41 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers Message-ID: <20000326192941.A49403@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com>; from johnmpurser@home.com on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 07:14:12AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to John Purser: > Anybody got any (useful) ideas? I think the Earthlink header is a red-herring, it is a fake one, probably generated by the spammer's software. I think the sucker's coming through Prodigy from a dialup in splitrock.net. Splitrock must be a customer of Prodigy's and they have access to Prodigy's SMTP server because of that. Complain to both Prodigy and Splitrock. > Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net > [207.115.63.103]) > by mx1-e.mail.home.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24197; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:38 -0800 (PST) > Received: from smtp.prodigy.net (MIAMB106-30.splitrock.net [209.156.28.214]) > by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA67476; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 03:15:16 -0500 This header is probably genuine, having to relation whatsoever with the previous one. I'm a bit surprised they still run 8.8.5 though. > Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by > earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for > ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) Faked. This Sendmail versions signature is a common point in several spamware. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 9:48: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7076237BA00 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:48:55 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326114807.00a6cba0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:48:07 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000326121505.D234@parish> References: <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:15 26-03-2000 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >IOW it would be a deterrent? Somehow I don't think so. How effective a >deterrent has the death penalty been in states that has restored it, >i.e. has capital crime fallen significantly in those states since >restoration? OK, perhaps this isn't a totally fair comparison as your >victim pulling a gun on you is much more immediate than the long, long >route to the electric chair. That's right. The immediacy of the threat makes a big difference. Criminals generally think they will never get caught, so they do not expect the chair. But if they knew everyone around them was armed, they would be less likely to commit certain crimes. Not all of them, of course, but at least some of them. For the record, I oppose the death penalty, and am for decriminalization of drugs. Much of the violent crime is drug related. If drugs were decriminalized and drug addicts treated as decent human beings, much of the violence would disappear. >> I used to be a volunteer deputy sheriff for six years. Before that, I never >> owned a firearm. > >Did you ever feel that should have had one? Presumably not otherwise >you would have gone out and bought one. No. But I did not grow up in a culture where guns were a part of its heritage. Nor do I carry a gun now that I am not a deputy anymore. >Hmm, do you not think that view is primarily because the risk to >police officers would be reduced? If the whole populace is armed they >can sort it out amongst themselves and by the time the police arrive >on the scene there's just a pile of bodies to clear up, no-one left to >shoot at the officers. No! That is not the attitude of police officers, at least not most police officers. Not in the US anyway. It is not cops against people. Most American cops are genuinely concerned about helping others, not about controlling them. In 19th Century US West everyone was carrying guns, quite openly too. They did not end up producing piles of bodies, except in spaghetti Westerns. >That pre-supposes of course that the gunman isn't well trained in the >use firearms, which would be very likely if everyone was armed, as you >propose below. The gunman, of course, would still have the advantage >in the element of surprise. Yes, of course he would. But he would not have massacred everyone inside as he did. He would have killed one or two people, then would be killed before killing the rest of them. >> Frankly, I believe the law should not try to ban firearms. It should >> require everyone except Buddhists to own and carry a firearm all the time. >> And, of course, to know how to use it properly. >> > >How do I become a Buddhist ;-) You say three times: I take refuge in the Buddha. I take refuge in the Dharma. I take refuge in the Sangha. And, of course, you have to mean it. ;-) Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 10: 2:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BAF37B62A for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:03:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326120230.00a6dd90@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:02:30 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <20000326131639.E234@parish> References: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:16 26-03-2000 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >> No. I don't. No. But the last one is a good point. If you own a gun, >> you are more likely to be killed by it than any other. > >Can you elaborate? Is this due to accidently shooting yourself or >being shot by someone else using your gun? I believe he was referring to the occurence of people being killed by their own gun when an attacker takes the gun away from them, and then shoots them. Owning a gun without being properly trained in its use is worse than not owning a gun at all. Proper training includes learning about gun retention. It also includes learning that you must never ever draw a gun unless you are ready and willing to pull the trigger. A person who draws a gun but is not mentally ready to shoot and KILL, is committing a suicide. Such a person has a false sense of security. They may be pointing a gun at the attacker, they may be saying don't move or I'll shoot, but their body language shows they would not shoot. Many don't even know to hold the gun properly. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 10: 7:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB5437BA00 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:08:53 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326120804.00a69320@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:08:04 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD") In-Reply-To: References: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 19:09 26-03-2000 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It's the same thing here. Empirically, there's only one country >that's really famous for frequent school shootings and stuff like >that, and that's the country with the most liberal gun-control >laws. You mean Switzerland? ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 10:13:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8777537B77A for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 10:13:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:14:48 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000326121400.00a6d560@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 12:14:00 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <20000326133218.A44329@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:32 26-03-2000 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: >They won't hesit to fire first and you end up with more people shot. That's >not a solution. It's not a perfect solution. But it is a solution. As mentioned before, during the late 19th Century US West everyone was armed, but you did not end up with more people shot. Except in the movies. >I think that the US way of thinking is far too utopian. Well, I'm an immigrant, and I sure don't mind living in Utopia. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 11:32:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6736F37BA33 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 11:32:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cweimann@server1.wallnet.com) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA00682; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:32:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000326143235.D29554@wallnet.com> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:32:35 -0500 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <20000326131639.E234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326120230.00a6dd90@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000326120230.00a6dd90@mail85.pair.com>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:02:30PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:02:30PM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 13:16 26-03-2000 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > >> No. I don't. No. But the last one is a good point. If you own a gun, > >> you are more likely to be killed by it than any other. > > > >Can you elaborate? Is this due to accidently shooting yourself or > >being shot by someone else using your gun? > > I believe he was referring to the occurence of people being killed by their > own gun when an attacker takes the gun away from them, and then shoots them. > The famous statistic that shows that you are more likely to be killed by your own gun only shows that if you include suicides. http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html http://www.i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/43_to_1_fallacy.htm Both have an explanation of the nonsense math involved in coming to the conclusion that your own gun is 43 times more likley to kill you. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 14:14: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC05B37B943 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14695; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38DE8B4D.5DAE0740@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 14:12:29 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0322 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <20000326121505.D234@parish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:58:10AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > At 22:27 25-03-2000 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >Perhaps if those who preached about civil liberties focussed on the > > >rights of victims more than the rights of criminals we may get > > >somewhere. > > > > The victims have the right to carry firearms. Unfortunately, most people do > > not carry them, many would not even know how to use them. Had the victims > > been armed and trained, most of them would not have been victimized. > > > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > > most people to be armed and trained. > > > > IOW it would be a deterrent? Somehow I don't think so. Actually this has been proven fairly conclusively already. Florida and Virginia have very liberal concealed carry laws. They also have two of the lowest rates of violent crime in the US. Recently there was a well publicized wave of crime against tourists in Florida, especially europeans and japanese. They asked the criminals why they were attacking the tourists. The simple answer was that they were the least likely to have guns. FWIW, I agree completely that you want the people who have and carry guns to be well trained in their use. But the current thought that disarming the law abiding citizens will have any effect on "gun violence" is simply ridiculous. The people that are using guns for crimes are ALREADY breaking the law. More laws, and disarming the public won't change that. Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 15:59:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AF937BC0F for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 15:59:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02547; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:39:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05831; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:57:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 17:57:44 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: John Purser Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers In-Reply-To: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm trying to track down the person to complain to about some SPAM I'm > receiving. My ISP (@home.com) is no help. When I complain to them I just > get a form letter telling me what their definition of Spam is and according > to them unsolicited commercial e-mail is not spam unless you receive the > same letter several times! > > I tried finding several domain web pages but kept winding up at a domain > name auction site which did not list the domains I was looking for. > > Anybody got any (useful) ideas? I have also the *exact* *same* spam. Three times. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 16:38:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5A037B87F for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:38:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@tutopia.com) Received: from tutopia.com ([200.41.109.73]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA49D; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:37:55 -0500 Message-ID: <38DE879C.E46D6C24@tutopia.com> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:56:44 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns ans roses References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > At 21:23 26-03-2000 +1200, Craig Harding wrote: > >So the solution for schoolyard gun massacres is for *all* kids to be > >armed at all times? > > Not kids. Adults. As for kids, they should be taught what guns do. As I > said before, kids should be taking to a range and let experiment with > firearms (under proper supervision, of course) because the main problem > with kids shooting kids is that they do not realize the harm can cause with > firearms until it is too late. > I disagree, weapons are not toys; even if you are old enough a fire weapon is not something that a civilian should carry. That said, here in Colombia, probably the most violent country in the world, it is illegal to have a fire weapon (many people have permits and are legally registered though). We could have excuses (the communist guerrilla is better armed than the official army because they are financed by the drug traffic), but history has showed us that the result of having more weapons available is always more deaths. > You do not see people trained in martial arts killing other people, do you > (at least not in the big way people untrained in the use of firearms do). > FWIW, as a martial artist I did get to kick some guys when I it was less than necessary, however I realized very soon that it was not about having the knowledge/skill to kill someone else...it was much more interesting to "win" without even touching your opponent. > > Personally, I am neither pro-guns, nor anti-guns. All I am saying that is a > society in which gun ownership is viewed as important, people should be > trained in proper use of firearms, and trained well. > However useless as it might seem (in Colombia, at least) I am clearly anti-gun, however you wouldn't believe the BS we get from other anti-gunnists here...they are prohibiting "violent toys" like tanks and water pistols! I even know certain parents that prohibit TV cartoons like Dragon Ball Z to their kids. Someone was mentioning here that Latin America's catholics wouldn't like "Chuck", well... my sister in law converted to a (US-based) Christian church and now their kids are not allowed to look at Batman because of "those pointed demon-like horns" (the ears!). In sum, I agree education is very important, but it would be better for all of us if the danger was abolished or at least controlled. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 18:37:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473AB37BAB7 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:37:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25916; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:37:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000326193229.00a5b6f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:37:14 -0700 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000325090140.00a42660@mail85.pair.com> References: <4.2.2.20000324185722.041cf6e0@localhost> <200003242324.QAA10120@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:01 AM 3/25/2000 , G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >At 19:03 24-03-2000 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Also, if you live close to campus, students can sometimes consume all > >available on-street parking during classes. So, the law also allows a > >block to establish a "parking district" with restricted parking for > >non-residents. > >Seems to me instead of passing ordinances your city needs to build a >college parking lot... Our city has no land on which to build such a lot, and land near the University (which is a state entity, not a city entity) is in great demand and therefore very expensive. Besides, the problem is caused by the state, not the city, and residents of the city feel that the state is responsible for students having no place to park. (They're right, IMHO.) So, the city is taking care of its residents, and hoping that if students and faculty are inconveninced a bit they will pressure the University (over which the city has no direct control) to provide better parking facilities. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 18:44:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A2837B98C for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 18:44:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA25954; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:42:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000326193926.00bbf160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:41:59 -0700 To: Mark Ovens , Paul Richards From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000325222749.D234@parish> References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:27 PM 3/25/2000 , Mark Ovens wrote: >The problem with civil liberties is who is entitled to what rights? >Too many do-gooders seem intent on making sure that criminals don't >have their rights denied/eroded/abused by the police that the police >are severely hampered in their work. If a police officer physically >restrains a person (s)he is arresting they stand an increasing chance >of being prosecuted for assault. The term "reasonable force" nowadays >seems to mean "no contact". I see. So the police are justified in bursting into a man's apartment without warning, gunning him down in cold blood, and then going "Oops, wrong apartment?" In Denver, the police did this and paid Ishmael Mena's family a mere $400,000 in compensation. With the Mayor's consent and approval. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 19:24:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABCA437B98C for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:24:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08642; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:24:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:24:13 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns ans roses Message-ID: <20000326222413.C6632@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 11:22:57AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 11:22:57AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: [snip] > >In an ideal world, with everyone > >well-educated in the correct use of their firearm, your ideas might > >actually work. > > That problem is correctable. Everyone should be required to get proper > training in the use of firearms. And I don't mean going through a simple > lecture. Go through at least a hundred hours of basic firearms training. > There you will not only learn how to aim without missing. There you would > have to shoot at targets and see them destroyed. There you would develop > the awareness of what you are capable. > > Cars are dangerous. So everyone is required to go through proper driving > training. Why not require proper firearms training? Yes, this is a excellent point. With all of the driving training people are required to have and the hours upon hours of everyday experience people have with cars, there are no longer problems with people injuring themselves and others with cars. Since we've all had it pounded into our heads that drunk driving is dumb, no one would dare get into a car after a few drinks... and well trained gun owners would never pack heat after a few brews. Since we all have listened to everything about the latest big rage, road rage, there is no longer any aggressive driving causing problems. Likewise, well trained gun owners would never do something dumb in anger on the spur of the moment with a gun... like shoot somebody for cutting them off in traffic. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 19:35:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB8A737BB13 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 19:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA84881 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:35:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:35:34 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: BSDCon East Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. So far the consensus has been that either Atlanta, Ga or somewhere in the DC area would be the most probable sites. However, that greatly depends on the amount of corporate sponsorship that can be drummed up in the respective areas. Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, i.e. in the early spring. Obviously, spring 2000 is out, but perhaps spring 2001 or 2002 would be feasible. Anyways, if there is interest, then we need to figure out if we can convince any corporations into sponsoring this, and it also needs to be planned. So, here's hopefully a spark to get the ball rolling. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 21: 0:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D4737BB70 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id UAA57192; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:58:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 20:58:54 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers Message-ID: <20000326205854.B56803@azazel.zer0.org> References: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <20000326192941.A49403@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000326192941.A49403@keltia.freenix.fr>; from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 07:29:41PM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-03-26 19:29 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by > > earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for > > ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) > > Faked. This Sendmail versions signature is a common point in several spamware. Is there a way to determine this with certainty? What is the signature to look for? I'd like to add it to my spam filters. Thanks. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "I think not," said Descartes... mailto:gsutter@zer0.org and promptly disappeared. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 21: 6:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5709337B6DC for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA08806; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:19:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:19:35 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Doug Barton Cc: Mark Ovens , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Message-ID: <20000326231935.D6632@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <20000325222749.D234@parish> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <20000326121505.D234@parish> <38DE8B4D.5DAE0740@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <38DE8B4D.5DAE0740@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 02:12:29PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 02:12:29PM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 12:58:10AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > At 22:27 25-03-2000 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > >Perhaps if those who preached about civil liberties focussed on the > > > >rights of victims more than the rights of criminals we may get > > > >somewhere. > > > > > > The victims have the right to carry firearms. Unfortunately, most people do > > > not carry them, many would not even know how to use them. Had the victims > > > been armed and trained, most of them would not have been victimized. > > > > > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > > > most people to be armed and trained. > > > > > > > IOW it would be a deterrent? Somehow I don't think so. > > Actually this has been proven fairly conclusively already. Florida and > Virginia have very liberal concealed carry laws. They also have two of > the lowest rates of violent crime in the US. Interesting. I just came to a complete halt at the idea that Florida had one of the lowest violent crime rates and had to look it up. What time span are you refering to and what measure of the crime rate? Violent crimes per 100,000 population ------------------------------------------ STATE 1990 1997 ------------------------------------------ Rate Rank Rate Rank ------------------------------------------------------------------ Florida 1,244 1 1,024 1 Virginia 351 34 345 34 Data from http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank11.txt. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 21:12:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rock.ghis.net (rock.ghis.net [209.222.164.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4816D37BB70; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: from argon.blackdawn.com ([209.69.196.194]) by rock.ghis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10189; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by argon.blackdawn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 85C111A48; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:12:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:12:35 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000327001235.C73880@argon.blackdawn.com> References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx>; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 10:35:34PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 10:35:34PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to > organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just > pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some > of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. Sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, I can't promise either money or attendance since I'm a poor HS/college student. :-) But I can promise helping to organize this kind of thing. :) > So far the consensus has been that either Atlanta, Ga or somewhere > in the DC area would be the most probable sites. However, that > greatly depends on the amount of corporate sponsorship that can be > drummed up in the respective areas. I would prefer D.C., it's more in-between than Atlanta. And D.C. has cool i-net connectivity. :-)) > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > i.e. in the early spring. Obviously, spring 2000 is out, but > perhaps spring 2001 or 2002 would be feasible. I agree completely. Maybe BSDCon-east and BSDcon-west could rotate seasons each year, i.e. east west 2001 - spring fall 2002 - summer winter 2003 - fall spring 2004 - winter summer etc. so that people would get enough exposure to it. And to save time, perhaps there could be a once-every-4-years central meet at a place like St. Louis, Houston, Chicago, or something-or-other. Unfortunately, this whole thing seems a little U.S.-centric, as I'm fully aware we have large user-groups in Japan, Europe, Taiwan, Brazil, etc. > Anyways, if there is interest, then we need to figure out if we > can convince any corporations into sponsoring this, and it also > needs to be planned. So, here's hopefully a spark to get the ball > rolling. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 21:25:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6367A37BBA1 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 21:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@tutopia.com) Received: from tutopia.com ([168.176.3.36]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3190 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:25:21 -0500 Message-ID: <38DEF0C3.5A6D8A1D@tutopia.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:25:23 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > .... > > So far the consensus has been that either Atlanta, Ga or somewhere > in the DC area would be the most probable sites. However, that > greatly depends on the amount of corporate sponsorship that can be > drummed up in the respective areas. > How about Pittsburgh ?? I'll be there during the following 5 years ;-), Just kidding, Atlanta would be OK, I even have family there. Perhaps it should swicth around every year, I would really hate it if I don't get to meet the people from the West Coast. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 22:54:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5BB37B507 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh14.bfm.org [216.127.220.207]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:55:34 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327005447.00a95ae0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:54:47 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns ans roses Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38DE879C.E46D6C24@tutopia.com> References: <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:56 26-03-2000 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Someone was mentioning here that Latin America's catholics wouldn't like >"Chuck", well... my sister in law converted to a (US-based) Christian >church and now their kids are not allowed to look at Batman because of >"those pointed demon-like horns" (the ears!). Hehe. Some people did not like Mr. Spock when Star Trek first came out, because he had pointed ears, hence had to be the devil himself. ;) >In sum, I agree education is very important, but it would be better for >all of us if the danger was abolished or at least controlled. Among other things, I've got a degree in Canon Law (that's the law of the Catholic Church). One of the things they taught us was that it is pointless to make laws based on philosophical/theoretical ideals but only laws based on realistic expectations. Based on the strong feelings about guns in the US, I believe the most realistic way to deal with guns is by insisting on proper training. Banning guns is just not going to work in the US. As I said, I only bought a gun when I became a deputy sheriff. Now I no longer carry it. But I was brought up in Europe. When I analyze the situation in the US, however, I am looking at the US culture, of which firearms are an important part. Based on that, and only that, I believe the only thing the government in the US should do is insist on proper training. Anything else is unrealistic. A government of the people must consider the people and some theoretical ideals. They should have learned a lesson when they tried to remove Bill Clinton from office. The people clearly wanted Clinton to be left alone, while the Congressional Republicans were screaming about moral theory, and only managed to anger everyone. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 23: 5:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB0837B7A9 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (rh14.bfm.org [216.127.220.207]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:06:18 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327010532.00a9a7c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:05:32 -0600 To: cjclark@home.com From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns ans roses Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000326222413.C6632@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <38DB8D34.1A750C81@originative.co.uk> <20000325104927.B234@parish> <38DCC0D3.99AB6F28@originative.co.uk> <3.0.6.32.20000326005810.00a9dd00@mail85.pair.com> <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> <3.0.6.32.20000326112257.00a40ca0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22:24 26-03-2000 -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: >Yes, this is a excellent point. With all of the driving training >people are required to have and the hours upon hours of everyday >experience people have with cars, there are no longer problems with >people injuring themselves and others with cars. Of course there are problems. And will continue to be. But history shows there are fewer problems when people are trained. Part of our training in police school was: When you go to a bar, leave your gun and badge at home. There will always be violence among us, there will always be criminals among us. That is a fact of life, a fact of imperfect human condition. Stupidity cannot be outlawed, because stupidity is a basic human right. It is not possible to stop all violence, certainly not by legislative means. What legislators can do, is reduce it as much as possible. And it is my humble opinion that, in the US, proper training is the best way to go. We obviously have a difference of opinion, and that's just fine. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 23:15:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B770237BA9F for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:15:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (rh14.bfm.org [216.127.220.207]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:16:15 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:15:29 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hip, hip, hurrah! The Matrix won the Academy Award for best visual effects (among other things). As we all know, these were made on a computer running FreeBSD. Time for champagne! Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 23:30: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0373737B98C for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e2R7sAr18282; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:54:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:54:10 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Message-ID: <20000326235410.B21029@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com>; from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 01:15:29AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * G. Adam Stanislav [000326 23:40] wrote: > Hip, hip, hurrah! The Matrix won the Academy Award for best visual effects > (among other things). As we all know, these were made on a computer running > FreeBSD. > > Time for champagne! I had this fantasy of them thanking the project... but alas no such luck. :) "We'd like to thank Jordan.pl for the terrific OS we used, FreeBSD." -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 26 23:48:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E64537BC1A for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 23:48:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (rh14.bfm.org [216.127.220.207]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:49:11 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327014817.00a93d40@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:48:17 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000326235410.B21029@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:54 26-03-2000 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >I had this fantasy of them thanking the project... but alas no such >luck. :) Yes, I was anxiously awaiting for them to mention FreeBSD as well, especially since they forgot to mention it in the credits. But this would be a good occasion to toot our horn... Heck, if somebody were willing to write a good and brief article about how FreeBSD was chosen by the Academy Award winning special effects team, I'd be happy to post it on FilmSFX.com, which is still in its infancy, but which I hope to turn into an information center about computer generated film special effects. Any takers? Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 0:18:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 843B637BC33 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 00:18:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 383 invoked by uid 211); 27 Mar 2000 08:17:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 27 Mar 2000 08:17:50 -0000 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:47:49 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Silly laws and fortunes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327010532.00a9a7c0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The fortune database contains lots of silly laws which allegedly exist in various towns in the US. Are these really true? Examples: Idaho state law makes it illegal for a man to give his sweetheart a box of candy weighing less than fifty pounds. In Greene, New York, it is illegal to eat peanuts and walk backwards on the sidewalks when a concert is on. In Lexington, Kentucky, it's illegal to carry an ice cream cone in your pocket. In Memphis, Tennessee, it is illegal for a woman to drive a car unless there is a man either running or walking in front of it waving a red flag to warn approaching motorists and pedestrians. In Seattle, Washington, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon that is over six feet in length. In Tennessee, it is illegal to shoot any game other than whales from a moving automobile. It is illegal to say "Oh, Boy" in Jonesboro, Georgia. It's illegal in Wilbur, Washington, to ride an ugly horse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 1:50:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DE537BC33 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 01:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.cs.technion.ac.il (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA06227; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:50:34 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost (nadav@localhost) by csd.cs.technion.ac.il (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA29251; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:50:31 +0200 (IST) X-Authentication-Warning: csd.cs.technion.ac.il: nadav owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:50:31 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: cjclark@home.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns ans roses In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327010532.00a9a7c0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 22:24 26-03-2000 -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > >Yes, this is a excellent point. With all of the driving training > >people are required to have and the hours upon hours of everyday > >experience people have with cars, there are no longer problems with > >people injuring themselves and others with cars. > > Of course there are problems. And will continue to be. But history shows > there are fewer problems when people are trained. > > Part of our training in police school was: When you go to a bar, leave your > gun and badge at home. > > There will always be violence among us, there will always be criminals > among us. That is a fact of life, a fact of imperfect human condition. > Stupidity cannot be outlawed, because stupidity is a basic human right. > > It is notpossible to stop all violence, certainly not by legislative > means. What legislators can do, is reduce it as much as possible. And it is > my humble opinion that, in the US, proper training is the best way to go. Well, let me throw another culture/law system into the debate: In Israel, law requires licensing of firearms, and in theory, it's hard to get a license. In practice, a _huge_ percentage of the population has them. You are required to undergo training by a licensed instructor every two years to keep your license. On top of that, with compulsory army service (and a relatively long one) practicaly everyone who owns a gun knows what it can and can't do. This goes beyond what you get by training as a civillian. I know what my handgun is capable of. I know how long it takes me to draw, and what power a 9mm bullet has. I know what chance I have at stopping someone who is attacking me at various ranges. I can compare that to an M16, an Uzi or a machine gun (or a hand grenade, or a 60mm mortar or an RPG). This is simply because I shot many thousands of bullets in each of these, and so have most of the people who are licensed to carry firearms. Everyone also knows when you should and shouldn't use a gun, and the law is very strict about this as well: If you shoot someone who broke into your house, while he was unarmed, or if you had a good chance of running away, you have a good chance of being in prison longer than he will. Use of firearms for self defense is only permitted by law when it is the _only_ remaining option. This is also something everyone is taught in the army, and, as I see it, one of the points people in the US (at least some of them) will have a hard time accepting. A sign saying "Trespassers will be shot" is illegal here. You can't shoot someone for trespassing - only for trying to kill you, and only if the _only_ way to avoid it is killing him first. This system is working pretty well (I think). I don't have accurate statistics, but licensed firearms are not involved (at least in my perception) in any significant percentage of violent crime acts. They do prevent, from time to time, acts of violence or terrorism. On the other hand, this is only because trigger-happy maniacs get diagnosed in the army, and will not be given a license when they become civillians. I'm not saying that handing out guns is a good thing to do, I'm just saying that under certain circumstances it can be done with minimal ill-effects. > > We obviously have a difference of opinion, and that's just fine. > > Cheers, > Adam > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 2: 9:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAD237BA9F for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 02:09:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFACB1D131; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:09:51 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38DF336F.1B6AAEB2@originative.co.uk> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:09:51 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Will Andrews , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 References: <20000325103842.A234@parish> <20000325120824.K391@argon.blackdawn.com> <20000325215410.C234@parish> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 12:08:24PM -0500, Will Andrews wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 10:38:42AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Just d/l the latest version, M14, of Mozilla and it has made a big > > > leap forward since the last one I tried, M12. Been using it for a > > > couple of days now without much trouble. > > > > > > http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m14/mozilla-FreBSD3x.M14.tar.gz > > > > I tested this a couple weeks ago and personally I found Netscape better > > in terms of accessibility and speed. > > > > I don't dispute that it is still a long way from perfect, but it has > improved immensely since M12. > > > My next try: Mozilla M17. > > > > It should be up with Netscape by then. Which to be blunt won't be much of an achievement. Netscape is by a long stretch the most unreliable piece of software that I use under FreeBSD and a colleague has been despairing about how unreliable it is under Windows as well. For years web developers used to use Netscape as their benchmark but these days they generally complain that it's Netscape that is the problem and that it's Explorer that behaves reliably (based on the empirical evidence of the developer lists we follow here). Sad fact but one I'd have to agree with based on my own experiences. If I want to reliably surf the web I often use my Windows box to do it. I really hope Mozilla will eventually turn out to be a decent browser because we could do with one in FreeBSD. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 4:25:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD0FC37BA56 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 04:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15826 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:25:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id OAA27027; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:24:08 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 References: <20000325103842.A234@parish> <20000325120824.K391@argon.blackdawn.com> <20000325215410.C234@parish> <38DF336F.1B6AAEB2@originative.co.uk> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Paul Richards's message of "Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:09:51 +0100" Date: 27 Mar 2000 14:24:08 +0200 Message-ID: <0v8zz4txcn.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Richards writes: > I really hope Mozilla will eventually turn out to be a decent browser > because we could do with one in FreeBSD. While we are at this. Is it only me or does Mozilla not handle https connections? Roland (still at M13) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 5:34:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id CB88437BBB7; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:34:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: cweimann@wallnet.com Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20000326143235.D29554@wallnet.com> (cweimann@wallnet.com) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000327133415.CB88437BBB7@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 05:34:15 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The famous statistic that shows that you are more likely to be killed by > your own gun only shows that if you include suicides. > > http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html > http://www.i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/43_to_1_fallacy.htm > > Both have an explanation of the nonsense math involved in coming to > the conclusion that your own gun is 43 times more likley to kill you. before we can remove suicides from this figure, we have to assess if there is any increase ni the statistically probablilty of suicide that can bre ascribing to having a gun readily available. people sem to prefer quick and successful methods of suicide (not many suicides using a coffee grinder ;). not having teh means availabe to effect a quick and successful suicide may deter some until the feeling passes. even if we remove all suicides from the stats teh number changes from 43:1 to 2.39:1. maning that people are makine mistakes or murdering others in teh home with guns more than twice as often as using the same weapons for their avowed purpose. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 7: 3:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3858237B904 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:03:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA85812; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:03:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003271503.KAA85812@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327005447.00a95ae0@mail85.pair.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:03:03 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns ans roses Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Mar-00 G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > They should have learned a lesson when they tried to remove Bill Clinton > from office. The people clearly wanted Clinton to be left alone, while the > Congressional Republicans were screaming about moral theory, and only > managed to anger everyone. It is hard to get a grasp of entire American mindset I think. Although I can agree with the US being largely a culture that holds gun ownership as a value. However, I think this example is poor. Of all the people I have talked to, most were rather upset with our President's actions. However, I am in a more conservative section of the country. At the same time, I am also in a University, which is a more liberal environment than its surroundings. > Cheers, > Adam -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 7: 6:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24A237B69D for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA39197; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:05:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:05:04 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Paul Richards Cc: Mark Ovens , Will Andrews , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 In-Reply-To: <38DF336F.1B6AAEB2@originative.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > For years web developers used to use Netscape as their benchmark but > these days they generally complain that it's Netscape that is the > problem and that it's Explorer that behaves reliably (based on the > empirical evidence of the developer lists we follow here). Sad fact but Of course, IE has problems too. It doesn't comply with a bunch of RFCs. It can't follow all legal URLs, since it parses \ as /. It appears not to obey the server's content-type headers, prefering to follow the file name extension. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 7:14:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D986037BA9A for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:14:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id BF3677555; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC8851D89; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:16:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:16:10 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327011529.00a9a720@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: :Hip, hip, hurrah! The Matrix won the Academy Award for best visual effects :(among other things). As we all know, these were made on a computer running :FreeBSD. : :Time for champagne! The Matrix won in every category it was nominated in, all of which were technical. There's got to be a way to get some PR out of this. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 7:20:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1302.mail.yahoo.com (web1302.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE3BB37BC45 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:20:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpiponi@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 11986 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Mar 2000 15:20:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20000327152009.11985.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.7.201.244] by web1302.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:20:09 PST Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 07:20:09 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Piponi Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As we all know, these were made on a computer running > FreeBSD. Ahhh! Those were the days when you could do visual effects using just *a* computer! :-) Actualy the rendering was done on a render farm consisting of 32 Dell twin proc Pentium II's running FreeBSD alongside a similar number of IRIX machines. Those FreeBSD boxes really saved our asses at the final render crunch! -- Dan Piponi dan@mvfx.com Head of R&D Manex Visual Effects "There is no spoon" - The Matrix __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 8:41: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9387F37BBFA; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E30184B5; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:40:38 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200003271503.KAA85812@server.baldwin.cx> References: <200003271503.KAA85812@server.baldwin.cx> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:11:37 +0200 To: John Baldwin , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Guns ans roses Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:03 AM -0500 2000/3/27, John Baldwin wrote: > Of all the people I have > talked to, most were rather upset with our President's actions. Most people were upset and disgusted, yes. However, this is not to be interpreted to mean that they felt he should be removed from office. It is not uncommon to have affairs, and it is not uncommon to lie about it when asked. These things just mean that you're human (perhaps somewhat more fallible in some ways than others), but no more. However, when someone put in this kind of position gets nuked by others in a holier-than-thou manner, *that* is when most people in the US get seriously pissed off -- at the people who think they're morally entitled to start throwing stones. Of course, all of this is rather off the incredibly off-topic subject. ;-) -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 8:41:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0195737C011 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:41:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C4B18316; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:40:24 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:51:40 +0200 To: cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:53 AM -0500 2000/3/26, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Well, right there we see a problem with how the media focuses on the > extremes. Police officers have been shot by legal and illegal guns as > long as their have been guns and police. You bring this up like it > happens all of the time, and it does not. I have an interesting little tidbit of information told to me by a friend and former police officer. The #1 killer of police is their own weapon -- they get it taken away from them and used against them. For obvious reasons, police departments don't want this statistic to get out. This also happens to be the #1 killer of people with firearms at home -- the intruder takes the weapon away and kills them with it. If we taught people (including our police) how to properly use their weapons, this problem would go away. You can forget every single other aspect of this argument -- until you can solve the problem of people who own firearms knowing enough about them and their proper handling to prevent them from being taken away and used against them, you're never going to get much progress. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 9:28:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5514B37B60F for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA10500; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:26:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:26:10 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Brad Knowles Cc: Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000327122610.A10396@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> <20000325231656.E234@parish> <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 05:51:40PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 05:51:40PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:53 AM -0500 2000/3/26, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > > Well, right there we see a problem with how the media focuses on the > > extremes. Police officers have been shot by legal and illegal guns as > > long as their have been guns and police. You bring this up like it > > happens all of the time, and it does not. > > I have an interesting little tidbit of information told to me by > a friend and former police officer. > > > The #1 killer of police is their own weapon -- they get it taken > away from them and used against them. For obvious reasons, police > departments don't want this statistic to get out. This absolutley wreaks of urban legend. First off, "heard it from a friend" does not inspire confidence. Second, why would police departments be covering it up? Third, since police departments are often not the ones compiling crime statistics (they fill out forms, other people analyze them), how do they go about covering it up? > This also happens to be the #1 killer of people with firearms at > home -- the intruder takes the weapon away and kills them with it. I think this is another misinterpretation of the statistics. The number one way people get killed by their own guns is suicide. The next most likely ways, and I'm not sure of the order, are accidently shooting yourself, being accidently shot by another member of the household, and being purposely shot by another member of the household. If we drop out accidental shooting, the net most popular target of the gun is going to be you or another member of the household with the shooter being someone else in the household. The first suspects in any violent crime are people close to the victim and for good reason. Being killed by an intruder by your own gun is well below those. Now, whether the intruder is more likely to use your weapon on you or you on him might be interesting, and could likely be the origin of your claim. > If we taught people (including our police) how to properly use > their weapons, this problem would go away. > > You can forget every single other aspect of this argument -- > until you can solve the problem of people who own firearms knowing > enough about them and their proper handling to prevent them from > being taken away and used against them, you're never going to get > much progress. I think the argument for training revolves much more about the problems of accidental shootings. The odds that someone actually will have the opportunity to use a weapon in their defense are so slim (as people have pointed out, most police officers will never fire their weapon, or even draw it, (exept on the range) in their whole career) in the first place that the number of people killed in this manner cannot be big. I think that is what people tend to forget. The chances you'll need, and if you need it, have access to, your weapon to defend yourself from someone are remote. Owning a gun for self-protection is a false sense of security. The probability of being killed accidentally or by friend of family with the weapon is much more probable than using it to defend yourself from a stranger. Here are some statistics that someone, shockingly, marched out via a URL to support guns in the home (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgaga.html), Type of Death No. Unintentional deaths 12 Criminal homicide 41 Suicide 333 Unknown 3 Total 389 Self-protection homicide 9 Between accidents and crimial homicide we have 53 versus 9 self-protection. Unfortunately, we are not told how many of the self-protection ones involved intruders since I would put money on some or perhaps most of those involved domestic violence. I told myself I was done with thread, but the claims here... I could not help myself. Now I'm done. Really. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:20:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 732E637BB0F; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA29988; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:20:35 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Roland Jesse Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 In-Reply-To: <0v8zz4txcn.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Mar 2000, Roland Jesse wrote: > While we are at this. Is it only me or does Mozilla not handle https > connections? > > Roland (still at M13) You're right..this is a documented deficiency which is now being corrected..see mozilla.org Kris ---- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:28:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBA237BAE9 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:28:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [216.127.220.134]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:29:30 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:28:20 -0600 To: Dan Piponi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: <20000327152009.11985.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:20 27-03-2000 -0800, Dan Piponi wrote: >> As we all know, these were made on a computer >running >> FreeBSD. > >Ahhh! Those were the days when you could do visual >effects using just *a* computer! :-) Yes, of course. I did not mean to imply you only used one. :) > Actualy the >rendering was done on a render farm consisting of 32 >Dell twin proc Pentium II's running FreeBSD alongside >a similar number of IRIX machines. Those FreeBSD boxes >really saved our asses at the final render crunch! And what a fine job you did! The Matrix is now my all-time favorite movie. Kudos to you. Do you have a web site where you talk about it? I'd love to visit it. I really enjoy the special effects addenda on the video release. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:33:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A2837BE3B for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12421; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:14:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15606; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:32:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:32:49 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Dan Piponi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And what a fine job you did! The Matrix is now my all-time favorite movie. > Kudos to you. > > Do you have a web site where you talk about it? I'd love to visit it. I > really enjoy the special effects addenda on the video release. Get the DVD. It has a 15 minute clip on "Bullet-time." It's more than worth the $17 at Wal-Mart. Was the first DVD I owned (not that I own to many more...) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:36:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98F137BD9F for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:35:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12460; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:16:33 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15632; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:35:18 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:35:18 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The Matrix won in every category it was nominated in, all of which were > technical. There's got to be a way to get some PR out of this. > > Jamie Bowden Do we really want to see Linux in the credits of every other movie? Or IRIX? (We see IRIX already. Most of the time SGI gets credit somewhere. Those boxes of theirs are expensive. ["Lost in Space" comes to mind.]) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:38:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9875837BAC1 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id EE61C7555; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB89A1D89; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:39:51 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Kris Kirby Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Kris Kirby wrote: :> The Matrix won in every category it was nominated in, all of which were :> technical. There's got to be a way to get some PR out of this. :Do we really want to see Linux in the credits of every other movie? Or :IRIX? (We see IRIX already. Most of the time SGI gets credit somewhere. :Those boxes of theirs are expensive. ["Lost in Space" comes to mind.]) Irix pays my mortgage. I'm for all the exposure it can get. Unless one of the results of the WC/BSDi merger is a port to SGI hardware. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:40:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2019E37BD06; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02787; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:40:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000326224635.03f7dc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:50:24 -0700 To: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:35 PM 3/26/2000 , John Baldwin wrote: >Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to >organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just >pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some >of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. If it were a true "BSDCon" rather than just a "FreeBSDCon," it would draw even more people. I'd like to see this. As for location: I can help organize for sure if it's done in Denver or Boulder. These cities have advantages in that, while they're east of the Rockies (and thus qualify as "east"), they are still relatively near the center of the continent and are thus convenient to get to. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:46:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C47F37C068 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:44:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA86041; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:43:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003271843.NAA86041@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:43:46 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Guns, roses, and bike sheds Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, "G. Adam Stanislav" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Mar-00 Brad Knowles wrote: > At 10:03 AM -0500 2000/3/27, John Baldwin wrote: > >> Of all the people I have >> talked to, most were rather upset with our President's actions. > > Most people were upset and disgusted, yes. However, this is not > to be interpreted to mean that they felt he should be removed from > office. I'm sorry that I was not clear. The ones I mostly talked to were upset enough to feel that he should have been removed. > It is not uncommon to have affairs, and it is not uncommon to lie > about it when asked. These things just mean that you're human > (perhaps somewhat more fallible in some ways than others), but no > more. > > However, when someone put in this kind of position gets nuked by > others in a holier-than-thou manner, *that* is when most people in > the US get seriously pissed off -- at the people who think they're > morally entitled to start throwing stones. The problem is that President is treated differently, and for a good reason. He (or she) has a lot more power at their control than the average citizen. With added power/authority comes added responsibility. The same principle is used for military officers, too. Military officers are *expected* to perform at a higher standard than the average citizen, and they expect this of themselves. Here's an example of why this is important. At some point during that whole mess, several cruise missiles were fired to counter terrorists. Immediately after it had been done, many people questioned whether the reports of the terrorist activity in the area had been trumped up to a la "Wag the Dog". What I found most disturbing about this was not whether or not those claims were true, but that people were having to consider that as a possibility due to his previously established record. The fact that from what I could tell a good portion of citizens weren't sure they could trust the President was the real problem for me and other people that I talked to. > Of course, all of this is rather off the incredibly off-topic subject. ;-) Heh, true. I guess next we can have a flame-war over bike sheds? I think all bike sheds should be green. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:55:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEE437BD56; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id D176B7555; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECE11D89; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:57:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:57:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brad Knowles Cc: John Baldwin , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns ans roses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: :Of course, all of this is rather off the incredibly off-topic subject. ;-) There is no off topic. This is -chat. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 10:59:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491D437B637 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 10:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BFB1814D; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:58:28 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:47:58 +0200 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Dan Piponi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:28 PM -0600 2000/3/27, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Do you have a web site where you talk about it? I'd love to visit it. I > really enjoy the special effects addenda on the video release. . -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 11:35:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44AA37BAEB; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (bitsurfr@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17819; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:35:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:35:43 -0600 (CST) From: bitsurfer To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000326224635.03f7dc20@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) _____________________________________________________________________ RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers _____________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:35 PM 3/26/2000 , John Baldwin wrote: > > >Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to > >organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just > >pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some > >of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. > > If it were a true "BSDCon" rather than just a "FreeBSDCon," it > would draw even more people. I'd like to see this. > > As for location: I can help organize for sure if it's done > in Denver or Boulder. These cities have advantages > in that, while they're east of the Rockies (and thus > qualify as "east"), they are still relatively near the > center of the continent and are thus convenient to get to. > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 11:44:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50EE537BAC1 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 11:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (net-093143.cho.cstone.net [209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: <38DFBA11.F1F6EDD9@cstone.net> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:44:17 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org bitsurfer wrote: > > Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) I'm sorry, but I have a hard time imagining anything west of the Mississippi as being "East coast". :-) I'd vote for DC, personally. So, any BSD people going to DragonCon this summer in Atlanta? www.dragoncon.org If so, let me know. I'm helping to set up some of the panels for EFGA there, and if you want to participate in them, I can get you a free pass (if needed). SeanMike -- Sean Michael Whipkey Operations and Systems Administrator MrGoodbucks.com - 804.244.7192 http://www.mrgoodbucks.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12: 8: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BC937BAE7 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:07:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [216.127.220.134]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:09:03 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327140802.00fcfbd0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:08:02 -0600 To: Kris Kirby From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:32 27-03-2000 -0600, Kris Kirby wrote: >Get the DVD. It has a 15 minute clip on "Bullet-time." It's more than >worth the $17 at Wal-Mart. Was the first DVD I owned (not that I own to >many more...) Thanks, Kris. I don't have a DVD player, but will look for the DVD anyway. So I can watch it once I get a player. ;) Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12:24:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011F237BEDE; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:24:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03891; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:23:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:23:51 -0700 To: bitsurfer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000326224635.03f7dc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chicago is a possibility. However, its trade unions are known to exploit trade show organizers and exhibitors and so make it more difficult to hold a trouble-free convention. The size of the city isn't really an issue so long as it has good air transportation and a sufficiently large hotel to hold the convention. Currently, the BSDs are still gathering steam, so a moderately large suburban or urban hotel would do. The Adam's Mark in Denver, for example, is known to be a very good venue for conventions and offers highly discounted weekend rates. --Brett At 12:35 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: >Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 >RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B >DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A > >PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers >_____________________________________________________________________ > > >On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 08:35 PM 3/26/2000 , John Baldwin wrote: > > > > >Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to > > >organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just > > >pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some > > >of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. > > > > If it were a true "BSDCon" rather than just a "FreeBSDCon," it > > would draw even more people. I'd like to see this. > > > > As for location: I can help organize for sure if it's done > > in Denver or Boulder. These cities have advantages > > in that, while they're east of the Rockies (and thus > > qualify as "east"), they are still relatively near the > > center of the continent and are thus convenient to get to. > > > > --Brett > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12:25:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EAF37BC6D for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03907; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:25:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327132416.03fe6600@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:25:09 -0700 To: Sean Michael Whipkey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <38DFBA11.F1F6EDD9@cstone.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:44 PM 3/27/2000 , Sean Michael Whipkey wrote: >bitsurfer wrote: > > > > Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) > >I'm sorry, but I have a hard time imagining anything west of the >Mississippi as being "East coast". :-) > >I'd vote for DC, personally. > >So, any BSD people going to DragonCon this summer in Atlanta? >www.dragoncon.org No, but I'll be speaking at BayCon this year. If anyone wants to organize a BSD installfest and/or one or more panels on UNIX, I'm game. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12:28:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A611337BC82 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:28:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id WAA14552 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:27:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9F2358869; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:00:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:00:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers Message-ID: <20000327210018.A59456@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <20000326192941.A49403@keltia.freenix.fr> <20000326205854.B56803@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.9i In-Reply-To: <20000326205854.B56803@azazel.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 08:58:54PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Gregory Sutter: > > > Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by > > > earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for > > > ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) > Is there a way to determine this with certainty? What is the > signature to look for? I'd like to add it to my spam filters. With certainty no. One of the reasons the Received: line above is typical of many spamware is that IIRC this combination of sendmail / sendmail.cf is not possible (incompatibilities) and I even think 8.6.5 was never released... Some spamware even put a X-mumble: line with their signature in it (the more fool they are) making filtering easy. I can send you my regex filter for Postfix if you want. PS: no, 8.6.5 was released (see /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/RELEASE_NOTES). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #78: Sun Feb 27 15:32:39 CET 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12:33:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530D037B6AB; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine.udel.edu (nyf-ny19-34.ix.netcom.com [198.211.20.162]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29059; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:34:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000327152715.00ac9930@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:30:00 -0500 To: Brett Glass , bitsurfer From: John Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000326224635.03f7dc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Chicago is a possibility. However, its trade unions are known to >exploit trade show organizers and exhibitors and so make it more >difficult to hold a trouble-free convention. > >The size of the city isn't really an issue so long as it has >good air transportation and a sufficiently large hotel to hold >the convention. Currently, the BSDs are still gathering steam, >so a moderately large suburban or urban hotel would do. The >Adam's Mark in Denver, for example, is known to be a very good >venue for conventions and offers highly discounted weekend rates. Very good points, but it would be nice to be able to allow a maximum amount of people to be able to *drive* as well. Speakingly solely for myself, if a BSDCon East were to happen, that would be great, and I'd attend - but only if I were able to drive there. While Denver is a beautiful place, the population density is a bit smaller than the Chicago, DC, or Atlanta areas. Selfishly, I'd ask for DC. But, if NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Charlotte, or Atlanta came to be, all would have possibilities - both for myself, and other people who can't afford the airfare. Just my $0.02. --John >--Brett > >At 12:35 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > > >Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > > > >RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 > >RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B > >DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A > > > >PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers > >_____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > At 08:35 PM 3/26/2000 , John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > > >Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to > > > >organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just > > > >pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some > > > >of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. > > > > > > If it were a true "BSDCon" rather than just a "FreeBSDCon," it > > > would draw even more people. I'd like to see this. > > > > > > As for location: I can help organize for sure if it's done > > > in Denver or Boulder. These cities have advantages > > > in that, while they're east of the Rockies (and thus > > > qualify as "east"), they are still relatively near the > > > center of the continent and are thus convenient to get to. > > > > > > --Brett > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 12:38:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B8037BE19 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:38:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (r38.bfm.org [216.127.220.134]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:39:24 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327143759.00fc06e0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:37:59 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:47 27-03-2000 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > . Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 14:14:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3672E37BA4E; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:14:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (bitsurfr@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA60801; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:14:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:14:23 -0600 (CST) From: bitsurfer To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport (somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs field) service a more private class of fliers. As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. _____________________________________________________________________ RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers _____________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Chicago is a possibility. However, its trade unions are known to > exploit trade show organizers and exhibitors and so make it more > difficult to hold a trouble-free convention. > > The size of the city isn't really an issue so long as it has > good air transportation and a sufficiently large hotel to hold > the convention. Currently, the BSDs are still gathering steam, > so a moderately large suburban or urban hotel would do. The > Adam's Mark in Denver, for example, is known to be a very good > venue for conventions and offers highly discounted weekend rates. > > --Brett > > At 12:35 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > > >Why not in the Chicago area??? Surley its larger than say Boulder ;) > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > > > >RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 > >RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B > >DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A > > > >PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common keyservers > >_____________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > At 08:35 PM 3/26/2000 , John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > > >Several of us were talking on IRC the other day about trying to > > > >organize a BSDCon on the east coast of the U.S. Instead of just > > > >pestering Jordan, we figured it would be more productive to do some > > > >of the legwork ourselves and see how feasible it would really be. > > > > > > If it were a true "BSDCon" rather than just a "FreeBSDCon," it > > > would draw even more people. I'd like to see this. > > > > > > As for location: I can help organize for sure if it's done > > > in Denver or Boulder. These cities have advantages > > > in that, while they're east of the Rockies (and thus > > > qualify as "east"), they are still relatively near the > > > center of the continent and are thus convenient to get to. > > > > > > --Brett > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 14:35:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAAC037B9EC for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from syrinx.col.auracom.com (ts2-8.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.72]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14365; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:34:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:36:33 -0400 (AST) From: arthur To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327140802.00fcfbd0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 12:32 27-03-2000 -0600, Kris Kirby wrote: > >Get the DVD. It has a 15 minute clip on "Bullet-time." It's more than > >worth the $17 at Wal-Mart. Was the first DVD I owned (not that I own to > >many more...) > > Thanks, Kris. I don't have a DVD player, but will look for the DVD anyway. > So I can watch it once I get a player. ;) > > Cheers, > Adam > ... the collector's edition on VHS also has the 4 documentaries added to the tail end of the movie, as already mentioned, well worth the little extra for the 26 min of insight to the making of the movie. ltr - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for Gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 14:39: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A0737B6AB; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 14:39:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA35290; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:38:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:38:33 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: bitsurfer , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > The Adam's Mark in Denver, for example, is known to be a very good > venue for conventions and offers highly discounted weekend rates. Having lived near Denver, and now living in Virginia I have one thing to note here - Denver is NOT east. It isn't that much difference from flying to Denver as compared to LA (and with DIA's airport fees sometimes higher). The whole point in having a BSDCon East IS so it's in the East to allow those who can't travel 2000+ miles to get to a BSD con. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 15:41:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE2F37BC8E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:41:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13084; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:41:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAtJaaBz; Mon Mar 27 16:40:55 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04561; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:40:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003272340.QAA04561@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:40:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug Barton" at Mar 24, 2000 05:07:25 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This is the same principle that allows your neighbor, who has > > parked in front of your house for 2 years, to continue parking > > there, even if you have bought a second car, and have no place > > to park it because your driveway has your first car in it. He > > has established a right to that spot, even though it is in front > > of your house, by virtue of you not stopping him. > > Assuming that you are talking about a public highway ("the > street") and not your private property, then neither one of you has a > "legal right" to it, never mind whose house it's in front of. It's > strictly by convention that most people consider the space in front of > their home "theirs," and most neighbors respect that. There was an interesting case in Ogden, Utah, where the city had decided to make parking on a particular street illegal. They were doing this because they had newer, wider snow removal equipment, and so they would have to plow that street with the older equipment, unless they prohibited parking. They had the equipment, but that meant that they couldn't schedule removal resources as if they were all equivalent. It was a convenience issue for them. A man who had been parking in front of his house for 10 years ignored the posted notice, and was ticketed. He refused to pay the ticket, and sued the city, on the premise that he had established a "right" to park in front of his house, and had established an interest, via prescriptive lien, and additionally that the ordinance making it illegal was ex post facto from him having established said lien. He won. The city appealed. He won at the apellate level (the level at which a court can establish binding case law for any similar situation which arises in the future). The city was furious, of course, as cities are used to getting their way... One month later, the guy came out and found a ticket on his car, once again. Fuming, he went into the city court clerk, to give them a piece of his mind, and get the ticket voided. The clerk listened politely, and when he was done venting, the clerk said, "Ah, Mr. Johnson... we've been expecting you", and handed him a five page document. The city had "siezed" the street under eminent domain, after posting the required notice in the local newspaper (The Ogden Standard Examiner) thirty days previous to the seizure. He paid the ticket, and he no longer parks there. Cities have a habit of getting their way, one way or another. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 15:54:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2F637BBAC; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:54:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06402; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:53:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327164841.04665500@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:53:10 -0700 To: John , bitsurfer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000327152715.00ac9930@mail.udel.edu> References: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> <4.2.2.20000326224635.03f7dc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:30 PM 3/27/2000 , John wrote: >Very good points, but it would be nice to be able to allow a maximum amount of people to be able to *drive* as well. Well, once you get off of the West Coast, the distribution of BSD users is fairly uniform throughout the country. I've seen concentrations in Texas, Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs, Phoenix, New York, Atlanta, and Massachusetts. OpenBSD has (naturally) a bigger presence in Canada. Due to this far-flung constituency, I'm not sure how we'd select a physical location if the goal were to minimize the number of people who drove. Hmmmm.... Maybe the answer is not to have a physical location at all? I hear that someone once did a very successful "virtual" science fiction convention that lasted a whole weekend. Maybe we could do a "virtual BSDCon?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 15:55:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6ED37BA65; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:55:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06431; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:55:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:55:16 -0700 To: bitsurfer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org McCormick Place is actually too BIG for such an event. BSD is popular, but not THAT popular -- at least not yet. And the unions do terrorize exhibitors at McCormick Place. I heard some stories at last year's spring COMDEX.... --Brett At 03:14 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: >McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next >month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport >(somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs >field) service a more private class of fliers. > >As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of >an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 15:58:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D401137B841 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06460; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:57:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327165637.0465b450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:57:31 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003272340.QAA04561@usr06.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The city didn't have to go through that. English Common Law provides that adverse possession is not effective against government entities. They must just have had bad lawyers. --Brett At 04:40 PM 3/27/2000 , Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This is the same principle that allows your neighbor, who has > > > parked in front of your house for 2 years, to continue parking > > > there, even if you have bought a second car, and have no place > > > to park it because your driveway has your first car in it. He > > > has established a right to that spot, even though it is in front > > > of your house, by virtue of you not stopping him. > > > > Assuming that you are talking about a public highway ("the > > street") and not your private property, then neither one of you has a > > "legal right" to it, never mind whose house it's in front of. It's > > strictly by convention that most people consider the space in front of > > their home "theirs," and most neighbors respect that. > > >There was an interesting case in Ogden, Utah, where the city had >decided to make parking on a particular street illegal. They >were doing this because they had newer, wider snow removal >equipment, and so they would have to plow that street with the >older equipment, unless they prohibited parking. They had the >equipment, but that meant that they couldn't schedule removal >resources as if they were all equivalent. It was a convenience >issue for them. > >A man who had been parking in front of his house for 10 years >ignored the posted notice, and was ticketed. > >He refused to pay the ticket, and sued the city, on the premise >that he had established a "right" to park in front of his house, >and had established an interest, via prescriptive lien, and >additionally that the ordinance making it illegal was ex post >facto from him having established said lien. > >He won. The city appealed. He won at the apellate level (the >level at which a court can establish binding case law for any >similar situation which arises in the future). > >The city was furious, of course, as cities are used to getting >their way... > >One month later, the guy came out and found a ticket on his >car, once again. Fuming, he went into the city court clerk, >to give them a piece of his mind, and get the ticket voided. > >The clerk listened politely, and when he was done venting, the >clerk said, "Ah, Mr. Johnson... we've been expecting you", and >handed him a five page document. > >The city had "siezed" the street under eminent domain, after >posting the required notice in the local newspaper (The Ogden >Standard Examiner) thirty days previous to the seizure. > >He paid the ticket, and he no longer parks there. Cities have >a habit of getting their way, one way or another. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 15:59: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5103B37B8CD; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 15:59:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA04622; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:58:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA3PaW4i; Mon Mar 27 16:58:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05096; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:58:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003272358.QAA05096@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: V4.0 and Walnut Creek Subscriptions... To: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:58:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca (Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Mar 25, 2000 02:00:44 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I take it that the rumours about BSDI purchasing WC were correct. I > > wonder what implications that will have on FreeBSD. I hope they'll be > > as or more successful than RedHat. > > What rumours? This was all over slashdot, daemonnews, freebsd-hackers, > freebsd-chat and elsewhere. The discussions (mostly ill-informed) wouldn't > die down for weeks. Please don't start them again :-) Many of us have known that the deal was in the works for 5 months or more. Maybe those are the rumors he was talking about. B^) Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16: 5:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from afua.net (www.afua.net [216.242.53.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EFB37B899 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andyt@afua.net) Received: from abc (ip8.an15-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.26.8]) by afua.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA73339; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:08:31 GMT Message-Id: <200003271908.TAA73339@afua.net> X-Sender: andyt@mail.afua.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:16:02 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: andyt Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why not pick a place that is inexpensive to fly to? and a place that is worth driving to in early spring? Say Orlando Florida? You can incorporate the bsdcon with a week vacation At 04:55 PM 3/27/00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >McCormick Place is actually too BIG for such an event. BSD is popular, >but not THAT popular -- at least not yet. > >And the unions do terrorize exhibitors at McCormick Place. I heard >some stories at last year's spring COMDEX.... > >--Brett > >At 03:14 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > >>McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next >>month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport >>(somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs >>field) service a more private class of fliers. >> >>As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of >>an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16:29:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9665437B87D for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06859; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:29:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000327172304.03fe2100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:55 -0700 To: andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003271908.TAA73339@afua.net> References: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Flights are SOMETIMES cheap to Orlando, but it depends upon the season. Also, hotels there are high. Every site has its tradeoffs. If one wanted to do the convention near DC, Baltimore would be a good choice because there are lots of bargain airfares and a glut of hotel rooms in the area. If the goal were to do it near Boston, I'd consider Providence because airfares are lower and it's a bit closer to NYC. One might be able to get some sponsorship from Andover for such a conference. But I'd pick the Front Range myself, because it's centrally located and has lots of people involved in FreeBSD and OpenBSD. --Brett At 08:16 PM 3/27/2000 , andyt wrote: >Why not pick a place that is inexpensive to fly to? and a place that is >worth driving to in early spring? >Say Orlando Florida? You can incorporate the bsdcon with a week vacation > > >At 04:55 PM 3/27/00 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >McCormick Place is actually too BIG for such an event. BSD is popular, > >but not THAT popular -- at least not yet. > > > >And the unions do terrorize exhibitors at McCormick Place. I heard > >some stories at last year's spring COMDEX.... > > > >--Brett > > > >At 03:14 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > > > >>McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next > >>month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport > >>(somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs > >>field) service a more private class of fliers. > >> > >>As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of > >>an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16:35:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB2537B709 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:35:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA28588; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:35:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAANEaiP3; Mon Mar 27 17:34:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA06519; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:35:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003280035.RAA06519@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] To: cjclark@home.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:35:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Mar 26, 2000 01:53:10 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And for those who are defending themselves from the Feds, ask that > crew at Waco or Ruby Ridge how well that works. If you're a small > group and the gov't wants you, it don't matter how many guns you > have. There were injustices and abuses of power there, but the guns on > either side did not help at all. Actually, the Waco incident was initiated by BATF after the Branch Davidians purchased of a 50 caliber machine gun. Considering that the government brought in an M-1 Main Battle Tank, I suspect that the Branch Davidians were under-unarmed. The Ruby Ridge incident was initiated over a short-barrelled shotgun, which was, in fact, not illegal, since it was grandfathered, having been manufactured prior to the weapons being made illegal (and "ex post facto" rises once again). In both cases, it was gung-ho law enforcement that resulted in the incident blowing all out of proportion. > Personally, I'm not afraid of the > Feds turning all bad on us because (a) they just are not that smart or > have the vision (remember a President only serves 8 years max, if he > can't disarm enough before his term is up and declares martial law, > why start the process?) to plan something like that and (b) I know too > many military people and they are the most patriotic bunch around > and are not about to be part of a military state (and would not be > tricked into it because of (a)). The Chinese military involved in that "little incident" with the students were probably thought of as a patriotic bunch, as well. One of the main merits of the U.S. Military is the oath they swear to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Unites States. They swear allegiance to an ideal, not a man or a government. Vietnam has taught us that not all U.S. military people will refuse an illegal order. It's a lesson we seem to need to relearn at intervals, that "just following orders" is insufficient excuse. It seems to be part and parcel with being human and having military organizations. > One of the things the Founding Fathers > did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were > written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. I don't find it vague: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Even putting aside the tyrrany argument about "regulate", and whether the militia should be accountable to an ideal or to a government, regardless if that government becomes an oppressive regime... "shall not be infringed" is pretty unambiguous. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16:52:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1673C37B596 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:52:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com) Received: from WhizKid (r32.bfm.org [216.127.220.128]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:53:38 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000327185218.00792e80@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:52:18 -0600 To: arthur From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20000327140802.00fcfbd0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:36 27-03-2000 -0400, arthur wrote: >... the collector's edition on VHS also has the 4 documentaries added to >the tail end of the movie, as already mentioned, well worth the little >extra for the 26 min of insight to the making of the movie. Yes, that's the one I have (and was talking about). Is it the same as that on the DVD? If so, I really do not need to get the DVD, especially since I cannot play it... It is mind boggling what they did with so many individual cameras shooting in sequence. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 16:55:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8040437B9CE for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA23208; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:55:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAraaGcT; Mon Mar 27 17:55:05 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA07427; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:55:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003280055.RAA07427@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to To: crh@outpost.co.nz (Craig Harding) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:55:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> from "Craig Harding" at Mar 26, 2000 09:23:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > > most people to be armed and trained. > > So the solution for schoolyard gun massacres is for *all* kids to be > armed at all times? No. Enforcement of the existing laws, which make it illegal for someone under the age of 18 to carry a firearm would be enough. Arming all the teachers might have a bit of a chilling effect on kids bringing illegally obtained (the only way a kid can get a gun in the U.S. is illegally) guns to school. Arizona has a unconcealed carry, making it explicitly legal to carry a gun in public, and a small percentage of people take advantage of that to walk around with guns on their hips. The state of Arizona has one of the lowest violent crime rates of any U.S. state. Building metal detectors into the door frames might be a good start. How often are there firearm incidents in U.S. commercial aircraft these days? Let's put it another way: I can't remember the last U.S. hijacking, but I certainly remember the last British one. > Fundamentally, you seem to be arguing for an arms race. The enemy > (criminals) have guns, therefore we need guns. I'd argue that human > history would demonstrate that such an arms race is not an effective > process, except to the arms manufacturers. When you have stable entities operating out of enlightened self interest, an arms race stabilizes the situation considerably. Without nuclear weapons, for example, the U.S. and Russia would most certainly have come to blows, and there wouldn't have been any "cold" in "the cold war". In games theory, this is called a "mutual security game". The mathematics _proves_ it works. > Frankly, the fervor americans show for gun ownership in the face of such > overwhelming levels of gun-inspired violence is literally > incomprehensible. From where I stand it can only be explained as some > kind of national mental illness, or something in the water. Switzerland. That's always a very good counterexample when anyone tries to link the availability of guns to gun violence. They are orthogonal. Also, the death rate from suicide and murder in _all_ European countries is in excess of that in the U.S.. See the C.I.A. world fact book for current statistics. The overall unnatural death rate in the U.S. has been dropping, and is well below that of most other first and second world countries. I think we just have too many "reality" shows on televiaion, and that makes us think that these incidents are common, when really they are the exception, not the rule. Sensationalism by people who pretend they are journalists and read a series of 3 minute "news bites" is almost as shameful as the people who reward them for this idiocy by watching them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 17: 6: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCDB37BBA3 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA77571; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:04:13 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers Message-ID: <20000327170413.A77447@azazel.zer0.org> References: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> <20000326192941.A49403@keltia.freenix.fr> <20000326205854.B56803@azazel.zer0.org> <20000327210018.A59456@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000327210018.A59456@keltia.freenix.fr>; from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 09:00:18PM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2000-03-27 21:00 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Gregory Sutter: > > > > Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by > > > > earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for > > > > ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) > > > Is there a way to determine this with certainty? What is the > > signature to look for? I'd like to add it to my spam filters. > > With certainty no. One of the reasons the Received: line above is typical of > many spamware is that IIRC this combination of sendmail / sendmail.cf is not > possible (incompatibilities) and I even think 8.6.5 was never released... Hmmm, if it's not possible, then that would be a pretty accurate thing to filter on... :) > Some spamware even put a X-mumble: line with their signature in it (the more > fool they are) making filtering easy. Yes, unfortunately, most spammers got smarter than that a couple of years ago. Now filtering has to be done on body contents as well as headers to get a decent match rate. > I can send you my regex filter for Postfix if you want. Sure, I'd like to see it. You can take a look at my procmail filters as well; they're at http://junkfilter.zer0.org/. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@zer0.org "You uudecode it." http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 17: 6:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379F037B631 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:06:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA86428; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:05:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003280105.UAA86428@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327164841.04665500@localhost> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:05:11 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, bitsurfer , John Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Mar-00 Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 01:30 PM 3/27/2000 , John wrote: > >>Very good points, but it would be nice to be able to allow a maximum amount of people to be able to >>*drive* as well. > > Well, once you get off of the West Coast, the distribution of BSD users is fairly uniform throughout > the country. I've seen concentrations in Texas, Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs, Phoenix, New York, > Atlanta, and Massachusetts. OpenBSD has (naturally) a bigger presence in Canada. > > Due to this far-flung constituency, I'm not sure how we'd select a physical location if the goal were > to minimize the number of people who drove. Hmmmm.... Maybe the answer is not to have a physical > location at all? I hear that someone once did a very successful "virtual" science fiction convention > that lasted a whole weekend. Maybe we could do a "virtual BSDCon?" Or have it float around. Have it in Atlanta one year, and Chicago the next? > --Brett -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 17:28:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8C6A237B99A; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, adam@whizkidtech.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003280055.RAA07427@usr06.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:55:16 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to Message-Id: <20000328012818.8C6A237B99A@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:28:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Building metal detectors into the door frames might be a good > start. How often are there firearm incidents in U.S. commercial > aircraft these days? Let's put it another way: I can't remember > the last U.S. hijacking, but I certainly remember the last British > one. hijacking of planes in the US ?? have there been any ?? the entire hijacking "industry" has been in steep deline since the palestinians moved on to other methods. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 18:13:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1574C37B841 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.0.107]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS4007FY0T7FD@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:12:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00867; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:33:06 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:33:06 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers In-reply-to: <20000327210018.A59456@keltia.freenix.fr> To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Ollivier Robert wrote: >I can send you my regex filter for Postfix if you want. Please do. I'd like a copy of that as well. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 18:13:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5321037B887 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.0.107]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS4007FY0T7FD@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:12:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00859; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:30:38 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:30:38 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: To: Brad Knowles Cc: cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: [snip] > The #1 killer of police is their own weapon -- they get it taken >away from them and used against them. For obvious reasons, police >departments don't want this statistic to get out. > > This also happens to be the #1 killer of people with firearms at >home -- the intruder takes the weapon away and kills them with it. > > > If we taught people (including our police) how to properly use >their weapons, this problem would go away. > > You can forget every single other aspect of this argument -- >until you can solve the problem of people who own firearms knowing >enough about them and their proper handling to prevent them from >being taken away and used against them, you're never going to get >much progress. The problem isn't actually training people to handle the weapon -- it's training people to deal with a violent confrontation -- which happens very rarely in our world today -- but _does_ happen. The violent criminals out there didn't learn from the movies, but from experience. An unarmed individual that knows how to deal with violence has an advantage over an armed individual who doesn't. But an armed individual _will_ slow them down long enough to take the advantage if if the armed individual is capable. The anti-gun zealots seem to harp on the "accidental" shootings and the dangers to the owner. In the real world -- there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge." There is, of course, stupidity, which the zealots don't want to address because it's far more complicated than guns. And -- attacking arms feels better. Most of the reasoned discussion in this diversion of the thread seems to come from people who clearly have never faced a violent confrontation and are basing their logic on the movies. That will convince people who also learn from movies. It will never sway those who learned up close and personal -- so I think we are wasting a lot of band width and should get back to hand-wringing over the merger. We should be saving a whale or a Jordon, or something else:) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 18:13:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D5E37B6A8 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.0.107]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS4007FY0T7FD@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:12:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00885; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:52:10 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:52:10 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20000327164841.04665500@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, Austin ain't east -- but there is a lot of activity going on here and the Linux hysteria is at high pitch. Plus, it's 2,000 miles or less from 80% of the US. If East coast doesn't work out (which to me is Chicago and eastward), how about a BSDCon Central down here? If anyone is interested, I can send details. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 18:30:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5087D37BC8E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 8181 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2000 02:30:58 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 2000 02:30:58 -0000 Message-ID: <38E0192E.35C6C1D9@mail.ptd.net> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:30:06 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to References: <20000328012818.8C6A237B99A@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > hijacking of planes in the US ?? have there been any ?? Wasn't D.B. Cooper the first? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 19:19: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10DAE37B582 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11762; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:16:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:16:34 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003280035.RAA06519@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003280035.RAA06519@usr06.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:35:20AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:35:20AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] > > One of the things the Founding Fathers > > did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were > > written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. > > I don't find it vague: > > A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security > of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear > arms, shall not be infringed. > > > Even putting aside the tyrrany argument about "regulate", and > whether the militia should be accountable to an ideal or to a > government, regardless if that government becomes an oppressive > regime... "shall not be infringed" is pretty unambiguous. Not so fast, you say it yourself. It says that the right to bear arms in order to sustain a well regulated malitia will not be infringed. To a certain extent, the militias of that era are what we would consider the National Guard now-a-days. Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society at large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly regulated. Rights in the amendments aren't absolute. We have free speech and press, but you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, nor is slander in speech or writing protected. They all have limits that can and should be imposed by the legislative and judicial branches. And I don't think that's what you or a bunch of others here read into that. That's OK, and we aren't gunna solve it here. I'm done now too. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 19:25: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (kewanee.net [208.29.66.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE7B37BBC1 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from denny@reiters.org) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 49208D5F8; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:24:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:24:59 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: spork Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Netpliance I-Opener Message-ID: <20000327212459.V12851@reiters.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from spork@super-g.com on Mon, Mar 20, 2000 at 05:26:51PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got one on order that I'm waiting to try it out on. I'll send in a report when it arrives. Denny Quoting spork (spork@super-g.com): > Anyone bought one of these to run FreeBSD? > > See http://www.netpliance.com for pics and all, Slashdot for all the Linux > folks getting all excited over it > (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/03/11/1216231&mode=thread) and the > page that started the whole thing: http://www.linux-hacker.net/iopener > > If you've bought one, I'm curious about a few things: > > -what is the usb chipset? (is it supported?) > -details on the 16M flashcard (bootable under FBSD?) > > I'm looking to set one up, but rather than throw a hard drive in it, just > boot from flash and do everything else over nfs... > > Sorry if this is old news or if it's a raging topic elsewhere.. > > Thanks, > > Charles > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net FreeBSD: The Power to Serve | www.freebsd.org Linux Users Group Galesburg Area | www.lugga.org Actually, Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the Ferengi. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 19:34:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9125237B5C6 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:34:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 7C4767565; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C2D1D8E; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:36:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:36:23 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: :Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the :right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever :want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for :people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, :assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society at :large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly :regulated. Rights in the amendments aren't absolute. We have free Tell me something; which gun exactly, isn't an assault weapon? I'm curious, as last I looked any gun could be used for: sport, self defense, hunting, murder, etc. You start banning 'assault' weapons (and let's be honest, a chair is an assualt weapon if you're willing to bludgeon someone with it), and pretty soon none are left. Are we, as a society only going to allow plastic unsharpened knives in restaurants? Are we going to go back to living in bare huts made of leaves because anything else is far too dangerous? Are you getting the point yet? Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 19:38:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE7937B8D2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:38:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11817; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:36:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:36:02 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jay Nelson Cc: Brad Knowles , cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000327223602.B11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:30:38PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:30:38PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > [snip] > > > The #1 killer of police is their own weapon -- they get it taken > >away from them and used against them. For obvious reasons, police > >departments don't want this statistic to get out. > > > > This also happens to be the #1 killer of people with firearms at > >home -- the intruder takes the weapon away and kills them with it. > > > > > > If we taught people (including our police) how to properly use > >their weapons, this problem would go away. > > > > You can forget every single other aspect of this argument -- > >until you can solve the problem of people who own firearms knowing > >enough about them and their proper handling to prevent them from > >being taken away and used against them, you're never going to get > >much progress. > > The problem isn't actually training people to handle the weapon -- > it's training people to deal with a violent confrontation -- which > happens very rarely in our world today -- but _does_ happen. But rarely, see we all agree. And wouldn't it be nice if in most of those cases, neither one of the people in the situation had a gun? Yes, there is always the chance that a Bad Guy will find one, but if there are just plain fewer guns to be had, the chance is lower. And what about the many times in these confrontations where neither one really is a Bad Guy, just two Good (or Not-So-Bad) Guys in a misunderstanding? > The violent criminals out there didn't learn from the movies, but from > experience. An unarmed individual that knows how to deal with violence > has an advantage over an armed individual who doesn't. But an armed > individual _will_ slow them down long enough to take the advantage if > if the armed individual is capable. > The anti-gun zealots seem to harp on the "accidental" shootings and > the dangers to the owner. In the real world -- there is no such thing > as an "accidental discharge." There is, of course, stupidity, which > the zealots don't want to address because it's far more complicated > than guns. And -- attacking arms feels better. Huh? ac·ci·dent 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt 1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE 2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought 3 : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance Shooting yourself or someone else unintentionally is almost always stupid, but it's still an accident. I don't understand how you are saying this is more complicated. It's simple. People, everyone, you, me, and everyone reading this, make mistakes. If you want to classify them all as stupid, OK, but we all do it. And when one makes a mistake with a deadly weapon, which is going to happen at a certain rate because people do screw up, the stakes are just that much higher. Where's the complexity? > Most of the reasoned discussion in this diversion of the thread seems > to come from people who clearly have never faced a violent > confrontation and are basing their logic on the movies. That will > convince people who also learn from movies. It will never sway those > who learned up close and personal -- so I think we are wasting a lot of > band width and should get back to hand-wringing over the merger. Strange. I think it's just the other way around. The people who watch the movies and the sensationalized news coverage to me are the ones who think they need to pack heat in case some random stranger comes for them, and the chances of that are remote. The few times I have found myself in violent situations, I am sure glad no one pulled a gun. Fight or flight works for me, but I can't outrun a bullet. No, let's not go back to the merger. Brett has not been to vocal on this thread... But yeah, it's old and no one is going to sell any of it to anyone else. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 19:56:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from viper.lovett.com (hub.lovett.com [216.60.121.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E733237B8D2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:56:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ade@lovett.com) Received: from ade by viper.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 12Zn7I-000OFU-00; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:56:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:56:32 -0600 From: Ade Lovett To: Jay Nelson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000327215632.F69223@lovett.com> References: <4.2.2.20000327164841.04665500@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:52:10PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:52:10PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > Well, Austin ain't east -- but there is a lot of activity going on > here and the Linux hysteria is at high pitch. Plus, it's 2,000 miles > or less from 80% of the US. If East coast doesn't work out (which to > me is Chicago and eastward), how about a BSDCon Central down here? But.. but.. we only just got things back to normal after SXSW... Can't we drink in peace for a while? :) -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 27 20: 3:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E051937B8D2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 20:03:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11892; Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:56:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:56:20 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jamie Bowden Cc: cjclark@home.com, Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:36:23PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:36:23PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > :Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the > :right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever > :want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for > :people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, > :assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society at > :large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly > :regulated. Rights in the amendments aren't absolute. We have free > > Tell me something; which gun exactly, isn't an assault weapon? I'm > curious, as last I looked any gun could be used for: sport, self defense, > hunting, murder, etc. You start banning 'assault' weapons (and let's be > honest, a chair is an assualt weapon if you're willing to bludgeon someone > with it), and pretty soon none are left. Are we, as a society only going > to allow plastic unsharpened knives in restaurants? Are we going to go > back to living in bare huts made of leaves because anything else is far > too dangerous? Are you getting the point yet? Oh please, not the classic logical fallacy of the "slippery slope." When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific purpose of injuring or killing human beings. I'm sure the lawyers in the legislature will be more than happy to define assault weapons in painfully precise and unfathomable legalese for you if that definition will not do. Yes, humans have and always will hurt, maim, and kill one another and no, they don't need guns to do it, but an AK-47 makes the job a lot easier. We do draw lines about such things. It is not legal for me to possess enough anthrax contagion to wipe out this half of New Jersey, and it should not be. What possible legit reason would I want any? 'Cause it might kewl to get the little kick out of being able to do it? I can't make bombs either, and they can be tons of fun. If I want a firearm that can mow down a good sized crowd faster than you can say "Charlton Heston," for what possible legitimate reason would I want it? 'Cause it might be kewl to take it to the range and pretend I could do it? That's not a good enough reason for me. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 0:24:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DAB5A37B574 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 4940 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2000 08:24:36 -0000 Received: from du05.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.5) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 2000 08:24:36 -0000 Message-ID: <38E06C12.26BEA706@mail.ptd.net> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:23:46 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000326015310.A846@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003280035.RAA06519@usr06.primenet.com> <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > Not so fast, you say it yourself. It says that the right to bear arms > in order to sustain a well regulated malitia will not be infringed. To > a certain extent, the militias of that era are what we would consider > the National Guard now-a-days. The militia is defined in Title 10 of the USC: Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are - (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia. Some, perhaps all, states have similar statutes. > Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the > right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever > want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for > people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, > assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society > at large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly > regulated. The First Congress did not go to the trouble of adopting the 2nd amendment just to guarantee that good ol' boys would always be able to hunt varmints. Just like every other provision in the constitution, it has a political purpose. The framers believed, with good reason, that an armed populace provided a check on the power of government. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 1:55:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grisu.bik-gmbh.de (grisu.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9AF37BDC2 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@counter.bik-gmbh.de) Received: from counter.bik-gmbh.de (counter.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.131]) by grisu.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18072; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:55:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by counter.bik-gmbh.de (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA12629; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:54:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from cracauer) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:54:33 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: J McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from J McKitrick on Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 04:30:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I really hate to defend a software patent abuser, but I still buy at amazon for the following reasons: The usability of their website and the number of book descpriontions is magnitudes better than the next one. Maybe not so much for computer books, but for history and similar areas it is hard to beat. No major security concerns has been brought up about amazon (at least that I heared of). For me as a German it is not that bad if my credit card number is stolen, but nontheless I wouldn't like it to be in public abuse collections. They're responsive to email, and the answers don't miss the question as it is often the case for ebusiness companies. For the moment it looks like they try to improve the software patent issue. A company like amazon as an ally when fighting the madness is very important. See Tim O'Reillys latest letter exchanges. The facts so far don't contradict their claim that they use their patent only against B&N and that B&N is in fact worth fighting They once were known for spamming and stopped that (AFAIK). This as well supports the opinion that they are willing to work with and react on reasonable people. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.bik-gmbh.de/~cracauer/ FreeBSD - where you want to go. Today. http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 2:33:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DBAF37B832 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:33:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@knecht [141.44.21.3]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16664 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:33:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id MAA18668; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:32:05 +0200 (MET DST) X-Authentication-Warning: knecht.cs.uni-magdeburg.de: jesse set sender to jesse@cs.uni-magdeburg.de using -f To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response References: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: Martin Cracauer's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:54:33 +0200" Date: 28 Mar 2000 12:32:05 +0200 Message-ID: <0vu2hrqtay.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0803 (Gnus v5.8.3) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Cracauer writes: > The facts so far don't contradict their claim that they use their > patent only against B&N and that B&N is in fact worth fighting Why do you think is that? Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 2:46:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from knight.cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC0A37BA76 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 02:46:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@knight.cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by knight.cons.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA28707; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:45:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:45:58 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Roland Jesse Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000328124557.A28680@cons.org> References: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> <0vu2hrqtay.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <0vu2hrqtay.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de>; from jesse@prinz-atm.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:32:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <0vu2hrqtay.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de>, Roland Jesse wrote: > Martin Cracauer writes: > > > The facts so far don't contradict their claim that they use their > > patent only against B&N and that B&N is in fact worth fighting > > Why do you think is that? On several occasions I found they they in fact just try to crash amazon instead of creating their own thing. Almost all of their web site is not only reusing good features from amazons (which would be ok for me), but the whole thing is a outright copy instead of inferious quality i.e. no zoomable title gifs. Amazon's also speaks of unreasonable business practices of B&N, trying to force suppliers to screw amazon. They have bigger market weigth so that they might indeed have enough power to crush amazon by unfair methods. Their outright copying of a competitors websites leads me to te imppression that they're in fact equipped with insufficient fantasy to continue to improve the books selling business once amazon is off the market. That would leave *me* in a worse situation if that happens. Overall, it looks like Microsoft implementing some junk that passed the insufficient POSIX tests and telling the suits that NT can do all Unix can since NT supports the Unix API but not vice versa and similar Microsoftish tricks by looking like something real to stupid decision-makers. I someone copy'ed my business's website (nonexistent) - which is the core of my business - the way B&N did with amazons I would in fact declare war on them and face some trouble with Stallman etc., even while I might respect those people. But don't understand me wrong: Software patents are bad and I only support amazon as long as they are very careful not to worse the patent situation. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 3:15: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF7537BE24; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:14:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA24684; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:14:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Mar 2000 13:14:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Baldwin's message of "Sun, 26 Mar 2000 22:35:34 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment and complement? I swear I can't remember when I last saw them used correctly outside a dictionary or a printed book. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 3:46:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB21937BDDC for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 03:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA87306; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:46:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003281146.GAA87306@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Mar-00 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Baldwin writes: >> Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should >> compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > and complement? I swear I can't remember when I last saw them used > correctly outside a dictionary or a printed book. Doh. I do know the difference, but my e-mail is as bad as my commit messages it seems. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 4:21:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D9E37BE57; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24903; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 14:21:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200003281146.GAA87306@server.baldwin.cx> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Mar 2000 14:21:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Baldwin's message of "Tue, 28 Mar 2000 06:46:29 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > On 28-Mar-00 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > > and complement? I swear I can't remember when I last saw them used > > correctly outside a dictionary or a printed book. > Doh. I do know the difference, but my e-mail is as bad as my commit > messages it seems. *grin* No offense was intended, BTW, and I do hope none was taken. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 4:54:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD34237BE8F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:54:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 12ZvVP-000CLE-00; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:59 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04251; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:53:55 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: Martin Cracauer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: amazon email response Message-ID: <20000328135355.B4211@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org>; from cracauer@cons.org on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 11:54:33AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, martin, you certainly make some good points. I guess i will just adopt a wait-and-see attitude. I appreciate that they want to fight only against BN, but they still cost millions by requiring other websites to re-tool or risk lawsuit. It's a tough call.And it's too soon to say. We'll see if Jeff means what he says or if he just realizes he can't pull the wool over the computer community's eyes. jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org The spice must flow.... -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 5:18:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2216C37B7CB for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:18:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (john [10.0.0.2]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA87408; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:18:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-Id: <200003281318.IAA87408@server.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:18:04 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Mar-00 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > John Baldwin writes: >> On 28-Mar-00 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment >> > and complement? I swear I can't remember when I last saw them used >> > correctly outside a dictionary or a printed book. >> Doh. I do know the difference, but my e-mail is as bad as my commit >> messages it seems. > > *grin* > > No offense was intended, BTW, and I do hope none was taken. Nah. :) I didn't quite take it as a complement though. /me ducks and runs > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 5:57:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0760537BED5; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:57:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tms2@mail.ptd.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <38E06C12.26BEA706@mail.ptd.net> (tms2@mail.ptd.net) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000328135714.0760537BED5@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 05:57:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank you. i have often wondered about that militia term in teh 2nd admendment. i have suspected that is referred to the national guard and even the guard alone. good to see factual information on just what the militia is. jmb > > The militia is defined in Title 10 of the USC: > Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes > > (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males > at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of > title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration > of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female > citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. > > (b) The classes of the militia are - > (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard > and the Naval Militia; and > (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of > the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the > Naval Militia. > > Some, perhaps all, states have similar statutes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 7:14: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jasper.nighttide.net (jasper.nighttide.net [216.227.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DB837BF76 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:14:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darren@nighttide.net) Received: from localhost (darren@localhost) by jasper.nighttide.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09817 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:13:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: Darren Henderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327164841.04665500@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:30 PM 3/27/2000 , John wrote: > > >Very good points, but it would be nice to be able to allow a maximum amount of people to be able to *drive* as well. > > Well, once you get off of the West Coast, the distribution of BSD users is fairly uniform throughout the country. I've seen concentrations in Texas, Denver/Boulder/Colorado Springs, Phoenix, New York, Atlanta, and Massachusetts. OpenBSD has (naturally) a bigger presence in Canada. > > Due to this far-flung constituency, I'm not sure how we'd select a physical location if the goal were to minimize the number of people who drove. Hmmmm.... Maybe the answer is not to have a physical location at all? I hear that someone once did a very successful "virtual" science fiction convention that lasted a whole weekend. Maybe we could do a "virtual BSDCon?" Actually, Cincy, in terms of air access, is pretty central for the east. Of course my preferance would be for costal Maine, but then I'm prejudiced and I don't like to travel... ______________________________________________________________________ Darren Henderson darren@nighttide.net Help fight junk e-mail, visit http://www.cauce.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 7:43:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D15837BF6C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:43:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0593DACE; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:43:28 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327172304.03fe2100@localhost> References: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> <4.2.2.20000327131920.03fc4a40@localhost> <4.2.2.20000327172304.03fe2100@localhost> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:42:16 +0200 To: Brett Glass , andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:28 PM -0700 2000/3/27, Brett Glass wrote: > If one wanted to do the convention near DC, Baltimore would be a > good choice because there are lots of bargain airfares and a > glut of hotel rooms in the area. Baltimore is quite a bit cheaper than the DC area, but is also close enough that you can still consider flying into Dulles or Washington National and making the drive, taking the bus, or taking the train to make that final connection. The DC area is one of the very few in the US that have three airports so close together (I think Chicago and New York are the other two on the Right Side of the map), and this gives it a pretty big advantage when you're looking at trying to get the best airfare, etc.... This also makes it a lot easier for those of us that might be trying to come over from Europe. The Baltimore/DC area is more southern than either Chicago or New York, and fairly close to major East/West interstate highways like I-40 as well as being close to I-83 and I-95. These factors combine to make it a much more drivable location for people on the East Coast that are *not* already in Chicago or New York, since they probably wouldn't have to drive as far and what distance they would have to drive is relatively easy. I'd also submit that the weather in the Baltimore/DC area is likely to be nicer than either Chicago or New York, if you're talking about winter, spring, or fall. About the only time they fall down is in summer, when the humidity and the heat can get higher than is desirable -- of course, if you're comparing that to in-city temperatures in Chicago or New York, I think Baltimore & DC would still win. ;-) Finally, for those people who might be doing some vacation in and around the time, it's closer to both DC (if you want to do sightseeing) and the Virginia/Maryland/Delaware/New Jersey coast -- only about three hours away from Long Island New Jersey (where a friend of mine owns a beach house ;-). If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can think of, and has fewer drawbacks. If you want to pursue setting up in the Baltimore/DC area, I can put you in touch with some people in dc.sage (the SAGE local in the DC area), OldBaySAGE (the SAGE local in the Baltimore area), and the local FreeBSD User Group in that area. I used to live in the DC area, and I still have a few contacts. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 7:50:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E024F37BF9A for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:50:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 72FBB7583; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0D51D89; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:52:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:52:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: :On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:36:23PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: :> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: :> Tell me something; which gun exactly, isn't an assault weapon? I'm :> curious, as last I looked any gun could be used for: sport, self defense, :> hunting, murder, etc. You start banning 'assault' weapons (and let's be :> honest, a chair is an assualt weapon if you're willing to bludgeon someone :> with it), and pretty soon none are left. Are we, as a society only going :> to allow plastic unsharpened knives in restaurants? Are we going to go :> back to living in bare huts made of leaves because anything else is far :> too dangerous? Are you getting the point yet? :Oh please, not the classic logical fallacy of the "slippery slope." :When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, :speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and :ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific :purpose of injuring or killing human beings. I'm sure the lawyers in :the legislature will be more than happy to define assault weapons in :painfully precise and unfathomable legalese for you if that definition :will not do. Fallacy? If it's such a fallacy why did the folks who founded the US go out of there way to make it a difficult slope to start down? You may dismiss it all you wish. I believe history would bear me out on this. Once you start giving up rights and priviledges to authority, you do not get them back without extreme measures. Now, let me ask you another question. What's the difference between a Winchester .30 cal. semiautomatic rifle that holds multiple rounds, and a Chinese SKS 7.62mm semiautomatic rifle that holds multiple rounds? Other than the fact that one looks like you're "assult" weapon poster child, very little. The Winchester's easier to scope up for better accuracy. So clarify for me, other than twisted semantics, what's the difference? :Yes, humans have and always will hurt, maim, and kill one another :and no, they don't need guns to do it, but an AK-47 makes the job a :lot easier. We do draw lines about such things. It is not legal for me :to possess enough anthrax contagion to wipe out this half of New :Jersey, and it should not be. What possible legit reason would I want :any? 'Cause it might kewl to get the little kick out of being able to :do it? I can't make bombs either, and they can be tons of fun. If I :want a firearm that can mow down a good sized crowd faster than you :can say "Charlton Heston," for what possible legitimate reason would I :want it? 'Cause it might be kewl to take it to the range and pretend I :could do it? That's not a good enough reason for me. Fine. Don't own a gun. I don't own a gun. I haven't fired a gun in several years now, but that gives me no right to tell other people they don't get to have one. Guns are dangerous. Guns can be used for a multitude of purposes. Guns are not the root of the problem here. Trying to claim all handguns are strictly for police or street thugs is going to get you some mighty funny looks from the fine folks at Ruger(sp?), who make the nicest target shooting handguns out there. You claim that banning certain types of guns is an acceptable compromise. I say prove it, since I can use an 'approved for target or hunting' gun to shoot you just as easily I can use an 'assault weapon' to do it. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 8:20: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B3C37BD25 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:19:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (bitsurfr@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07899; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:19:27 -0600 (CST) From: bitsurfer To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > I'd also submit that the weather in the Baltimore/DC area is > likely to be nicer than either Chicago or New York, if you're talking > about winter, spring, or fall. About the only time they fall down is > in summer, when the humidity and the heat can get higher than is > desirable -- of course, if you're comparing that to in-city > temperatures in Chicago or New York, I think Baltimore & DC would > still win. ;-) Heh - If it were indeed to be the late fall/windter months - I prefer it to somewhat closer to Florida - But then, Chicago has been know to be balmy in mid November (60 -70 degrees) All in all, I would prefer it NOT to be in the DC area, To crime ridden overall, and who want to be in the same area as our political dults... I sure don't... Perhaps overall, the Atlanta area is better suited... > > > Finally, for those people who might be doing some vacation in and > around the time, it's closer to both DC (if you want to do > sightseeing) and the Virginia/Maryland/Delaware/New Jersey coast -- > only about three hours away from Long Island New Jersey (where a > friend of mine owns a beach house ;-). > > > If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that > the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can > think of, and has fewer drawbacks. > > If you want to pursue setting up in the Baltimore/DC area, I can > put you in touch with some people in dc.sage (the SAGE local in the > DC area), OldBaySAGE (the SAGE local in the Baltimore area), and the > local FreeBSD User Group in that area. I used to live in the DC > area, and I still have a few contacts. > > -- > These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy > ====================================================================== > Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV > Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 > Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels > http://www.skynet.be || Belgium > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 8:31: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wondermutt.net (host75-157.student.udel.edu [128.175.75.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81EC37BFE1 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Received: from morgaine.udel.edu (nyf-ny15-24.ix.netcom.com [198.211.19.152]) by wondermutt.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA33167; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:32:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from papalia@udel.edu) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000328112507.00ac03b0@mail.udel.edu> X-Sender: papalia@mail.udel.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:27:26 -0500 To: bitsurfer , Brad Knowles From: John Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: Brett Glass , andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I'd also submit that the weather in the Baltimore/DC area is > > likely to be nicer than either Chicago or New York, if you're talking > > about winter, spring, or fall. About the only time they fall down is > > in summer, when the humidity and the heat can get higher than is > > desirable -- of course, if you're comparing that to in-city > > temperatures in Chicago or New York, I think Baltimore & DC would > > still win. ;-) > >All in all, I would prefer it NOT to be in the DC area, To crime ridden >overall, and who want to be in the same area as our political dults... > >I sure don't... When arguing againt the political dolts, I can't agree more =) As for the crime, it really all depends upon where you go. There are WAYYY more nicer places in DC than you'd actually believe (I only found this out during recent visits there in the past 5 years). Anyway, one of the safest places in the country is actually on the capitol mall. Why? It's crawling with more undercover secret service than you can shake a stick at. Anyway, I'm sure that we can argue the crime factor at about *every* city that gets proposed? --john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 8:39: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18CF37B611 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 08:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14599; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:37:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000328093550.03fca680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:37:12 -0700 To: J McKitrick , Martin Cracauer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: amazon email response Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000328135355.B4211@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> <20000328115433.A11980@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:53 AM 3/28/2000 , J McKitrick wrote: >It's a tough call.And it's too soon to say. We'll see if Jeff means >what he says or if he just realizes he can't pull the wool over the >computer community's eyes. Agree. Amazon is brazen too; they spam their customers unrepentantly. I no longer patronize them. I use Powell's, which seems to be sincerely friendly. (Their physical stores certainly are.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 10:10: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3295A37B50D; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:10:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36745; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38E0F56F.CE20A131@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:09:51 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0325 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > John Baldwin writes: > > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > and complement? Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. *grumble grumble* Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 10:11:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8AB37BF60 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:11:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (doug@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA36750; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:11:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <38E0F5CC.E313D6E2@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:11:24 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT-0325 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Henderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Henderson wrote: > Actually, Cincy, in terms of air access, is pretty central for the > east. Cincinatti is dead boring. They roll up the streets at 5:30pm. Baltimore is an excellent suggestion, friendly city, nice people, good facilities, and we could have an excursion to Camden Yards. :) Doug -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 10:31:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from happy.checkpoint.com (kinata.checkpoint.com [199.203.156.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BEA937B697 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:31:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by happy.checkpoint.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08209; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:33:28 GMT (envelope-from mellon@pobox.com) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:33:28 +0000 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Doug Barton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000328203328.A8187@happy.checkpoint.com> References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> <38E0F56F.CE20A131@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <38E0F56F.CE20A131@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 10:09:51AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 10:09:51AM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > > > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > > and complement? > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. What, no its/it's grumbling? Your too merciful. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 10:37:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DCA37B56C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:37:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA44216; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:36:56 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: Doug Barton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000328103656.B43430@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <200003270335.WAA84881@server.baldwin.cx> <38E0F56F.CE20A131@gorean.org> <20000328203328.A8187@happy.checkpoint.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000328203328.A8187@happy.checkpoint.com>; from mellon@pobox.com on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 08:33:28PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 08:33:28PM +0000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. > > What, no its/it's grumbling? Your too merciful. Shirley you meant to write "to merciful". -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 11: 7: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 206CB37BF40 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 3638 invoked by uid 211); 28 Mar 2000 19:06:25 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 28 Mar 2000 19:06:25 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:36:24 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Anatoly Vorobey , Doug Barton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <20000328103656.B43430@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > > > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. > > > > What, no its/it's grumbling? Your too merciful. > > Shirley you meant to write "to merciful". Definately very irritating, all this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 12:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n0b.san.rr.com (dt051n0b.san.rr.com [204.210.32.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68ADF37C0F2 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:15:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from slave (doug@slave [10.0.0.1]) by dt051n0b.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA38094; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:14:59 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@dt051n0b.san.rr.com To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <20000328203328.A8187@happy.checkpoint.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 10:09:51AM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > > John Baldwin writes: > > > > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > > > > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > > > > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > > > and complement? > > > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. > > What, no its/it's grumbling? Your too merciful. I'm sad to say, I gave up that fight... -- "So, the cows were part of a dream that dreamed itself into existence? Is that possible?" asked the student incredulously. The master simply replied, "Mu." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 16:11:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BC037B622 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com) Received: from bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com (bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com [209.191.61.228]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18430 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA01535 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:17:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200003290017.TAA01535@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> Subject: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: from freebsd-chat-digest at "Mar 27, 2000 03:41:19 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:17:19 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, Consider this a vote for anywhere from Boston (all right up to 495) to the Alexandria and Arlington areas in Virginia. That's pretty much driving distance (since I can probably get work to give me the time and maybe mileage -- but I can't get them to pony up airfare). The Con attendance I'll pay for if necessary. Bill -- bpechter@monmouth.com | Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? | Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? | BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 16:40: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1327137BF6D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e2T14SM19589; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:04:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:04:28 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East Message-ID: <20000328170428.J21029@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200003290017.TAA01535@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200003290017.TAA01535@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com>; from pechter@pechter.dyndns.org on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:17:19PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Bill Pechter [000328 16:36] wrote: > Folks, > > Consider this a vote for anywhere from Boston (all right up to 495) > to the Alexandria and Arlington areas in Virginia. > > That's pretty much driving distance (since I can probably get work > to give me the time and maybe mileage -- but I can't get them to > pony up airfare). The Con attendance I'll pay for if necessary. Boston would be interesting, Andover is headquartered there afaik. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 17:32:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDDD37B69A for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.41.236]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS5006IZTLQR1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00898; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:26:17 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:26:17 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: [snip] > If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that >the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can >think of, and has fewer drawbacks. Plus, the greatest crab-cakes on earth. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 17:32:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622BE37B61D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.41.236]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS5006IZTLQR1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00838; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:22:46 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:22:46 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <20000327223602.B11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Brad Knowles , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: [snip] > >But rarely, see we all agree. And wouldn't it be nice if in most of >those cases, neither one of the people in the situation had a gun? The preferred weapon on the street is a knife and knives are consistently more lethal than firearms. I stand a better chance of surviving a gunshot than a knife wound. You should worry more about the knives than guns. [snip] >> the dangers to the owner. In the real world -- there is no such thing >> as an "accidental discharge." There is, of course, stupidity, which >Huh? When you handle a weapon, there is no excuse for _any_ unplanned event. Period, end of discussion. If you spent any time at all around people who use firearms, you would realize that there is _zero_ tolerance for "unfortunate events." The weapon is under control at all times, under any circumstance. Ask some of your police friends about that. [snip] >Shooting yourself or someone else unintentionally is almost always >stupid, but it's still an accident. I don't understand how you are >saying this is more complicated. It's simple. People, everyone, you, >me, and everyone reading this, make mistakes. If you want to classify >them all as stupid, OK, but we all do it. And when one makes a mistake >with a deadly weapon, which is going to happen at a certain rate >because people do screw up, the stakes are just that much >higher. Where's the complexity? With that attitude, you wouldn't last 30 seconds in the shooting crowd. That attitude is not tolerated. >> Most of the reasoned discussion in this diversion of the thread seems >> to come from people who clearly have never faced a violent >> confrontation and are basing their logic on the movies. That will >> convince people who also learn from movies. It will never sway those >> who learned up close and personal -- so I think we are wasting a lot of >> band width and should get back to hand-wringing over the merger. > >Strange. I think it's just the other way around. The people who watch >the movies and the sensationalized news coverage to me are the ones >who think they need to pack heat in case some random stranger comes >for them, and the chances of that are remote. The few times I have >found myself in violent situations, I am sure glad no one pulled a >gun. Fight or flight works for me, but I can't outrun a bullet. The few times I have been in that situation, here in the States, it was a knife they pulled. I would have preferred they pulled a gun; they would have been easier to disarm with less risk. But, they don't show that in the movies, either. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 17:32:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B3EC37B58C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.41.236]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS5006IZTLQR1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00886; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:53 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:53 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Jamie Bowden , Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:36:23PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: >> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, >speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and >ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific >purpose of injuring or killing human beings. I'm sure the lawyers in Here, you're speaking from a lack of understanding. An "assault weapon" is a light weight, small caliber _select fire_ weapon designed for dynamic intrusion. They are designed to disable opponent and end the fight. Killing is not an issue. >the legislature will be more than happy to define assault weapons in >painfully precise and unfathomable legalese for you if that definition >will not do. And the lawyers don't know any better, either. Don't take my word for this; ask some of your active duty military friends. The lawyers are after fees, the politicians are after votes, but the GI just wants to come home. >Yes, humans have and always will hurt, maim, and kill one another >and no, they don't need guns to do it, but an AK-47 makes the job a You just refuted your own argument;) >lot easier. We do draw lines about such things. It is not legal for me >to possess enough anthrax contagion to wipe out this half of New >Jersey, and it should not be. What possible legit reason would I want That's partially a red herring. But, it can be used in a fight (hence arms) and who better to entrust the responsibility than a good man who has no desire to harm? Would you belive there could be an "accidental" discharge of anthrax? >any? 'Cause it might kewl to get the little kick out of being able to >do it? I can't make bombs either, and they can be tons of fun. If I >want a firearm that can mow down a good sized crowd faster than you >can say "Charlton Heston," for what possible legitimate reason would I >want it? 'Cause it might be kewl to take it to the range and pretend I >could do it? That's not a good enough reason for me. Because of the freedom we've enjoyed, you have a perfect right to believe as you do and make the choices you see fit for you and your family. You have a right to misunderstand and I sincerely hope you never have to face a situation that changes your mind. Many others, though, have been willing to be conscripted as society's junkyard dogs to preserve your freedom to believe as you choose. Many of those died for that choice. Many who came home are alive today because of the weapons you see as of no use. They don't share your opinion. How can you possibly expect to proscribe someone else's freedom because you see no "legitimate reason" and and still expect to preserve your own? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 17:32:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE5537BB22 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.41.236]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS5006IZTLQR1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00820; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:02:08 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:02:07 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:35:20AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >[snip] >> > One of the things the Founding Fathers >> > did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were >> > written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. >> >> I don't find it vague: >> >> A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security >> of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear >> arms, shall not be infringed. >> >> >> Even putting aside the tyrrany argument about "regulate", and >> whether the militia should be accountable to an ideal or to a >> government, regardless if that government becomes an oppressive >> regime... "shall not be infringed" is pretty unambiguous. > >Not so fast, you say it yourself. It says that the right to bear arms >in order to sustain a well regulated malitia will not be infringed. To >a certain extent, the militias of that era are what we would consider >the National Guard now-a-days. Whoa, bucko. It says, "...since we need a militia and have to call them, no one's right to preserve and bear _arms_ will be infringed. Arms is recursively defined as weapons or _anything used in a fight_. Ergo the "sporting" criteria" doesn't hold up. There are only "sporting" purposes to arms becaus, sane, good people don't want to harm anyone. They were more careful with language then. Title 10, Section 311 USC defines "militia" as consisting of two groups: the active militia, able bodied men who currently serve in the State Guard and the inactive militia, which is _every_ able bodied man and the women serving in the guard. That means that, you, too, Crist, are a member of the inactive militia. If you don't believe it, the Selective Service stands by to correct your misunderstanding;) >Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the >right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever Yes, unfortunately, it does. >want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for >people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, >assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society at Wrong again -- but that's a long discussion that has no place here. >large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly >regulated. Rights in the amendments aren't absolute. We have free Yes, those rights _must_ be absolute, or you've functionally destroyed the 1st, 3rd and 4th as well as the 10th. >speech and press, but you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, nor >is slander in speech or writing protected. They all have limits that >can and should be imposed by the legislative and judicial branches. The same is true of the right to bear arms. That right in _no_ way gives me the freedom to violate _any_ other tenent of common law. Vermont got their gun law right. It is essentially, "don't commit a crime with a gun, harm or threaten anyone else." It's amazing how peaceful Vermont is today. It's also amazing how few "accidents" or crimes of passion there are in Vermont. It is also amazing how rarely anyone in Vermont has to use a weapon to defend themselves. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 17:33:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664CF37BAF0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([207.193.41.236]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS5006IZTLQR1@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:32:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00791; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:39:07 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:39:07 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-reply-to: <20000327215632.F69223@lovett.com> To: Ade Lovett Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Ade Lovett wrote: >On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:52:10PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: >> Well, Austin ain't east -- but there is a lot of activity going on >> here and the Linux hysteria is at high pitch. Plus, it's 2,000 miles >> or less from 80% of the US. If East coast doesn't work out (which to >> me is Chicago and eastward), how about a BSDCon Central down here? > >But.. but.. we only just got things back to normal after SXSW... > >Can't we drink in peace for a while? :) Good point. I stand corrected. I just got carried away. -- Jay >-aDe > >-- >Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 18:21:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463F337B5D1 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20890; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000328191924.0410bd30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:20:49 -0700 To: Jay Nelson , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:26 PM 3/28/2000 , Jay Nelson wrote: >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > >[snip] > > > If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that > >the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can > >think of, and has fewer drawbacks. > >Plus, the greatest crab-cakes on earth. Actually, the best crab-anything on earth. There's something about those blue-green Chesapeake Bay crabs.... To think that a decade ago they almost went extinct! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 18:28:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 632D637BEA7 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20963; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:28:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000328192251.040bd300@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:28:09 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein , bpechter@shell.monmouth.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000328170428.J21029@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200003290017.TAA01535@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> <200003290017.TAA01535@bg-tc-ppp479.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:04 PM 3/28/2000 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Boston would be interesting, Andover is headquartered there afaik. Andover is in, well, Andover. Again, I'd go for Providence, since hotels are so horribly scarce in Boston. (The city hasn't added more than 100 hotel rooms in the past *10 years*, and convention space is booked up several years in advance.) If I were to do something in the state of Massachusetts, especially in the summertime, I would opt for the Berkshires. The area around Tanglewood is a great spot for conventions, and there's theater (a lot of Shakespeare, plus other stuff) and music all summer long. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 18:52:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2F337B83E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:51:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA09570; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:51:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAiEaiPs; Tue Mar 28 19:51:19 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27384; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:51:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290251.TAA27384@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:51:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000326121505.D234@parish> from "Mark Ovens" at Mar 26, 2000 12:15:05 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IOW it would be a deterrent? Somehow I don't think so. Yes; Bob tries to rape Margret, Margret shoots Bob, Bob fails to rape Margret. There is much rejoicing. > How effective a deterrent has the death penalty been in states > that has restored it, i.e. has capital crime fallen significantly > in those states since restoration? Actually, yes. The problem with the death penalty is that people keep trying to see the penal system as a tool for reforming people. That was never the intent of the penal system; it was always intended as an object lesson to the rest of the citizenry. > > I used to be a volunteer deputy sheriff for six years. Before > > that, I never owned a firearm. > > Did you ever feel that should have had one? Presumably not otherwise > you would have gone out and bought one. I don't own a gun, but I am rabidly in favor of others owning them. If I felt the percentage of the population which owned guns was too low, I guess I would feel obligated to go out and get one of my own, in order to raise the percentage. > > When I became a deputy I quickly found out that most > > police officers I talked to wished every citizen were armed. > > Hmm, do you not think that view is primarily because the risk to > police officers would be reduced? If the whole populace is armed they > can sort it out amongst themselves and by the time the police arrive > on the scene there's just a pile of bodies to clear up, no-one left to > shoot at the officers. Actually, it's because it's much less likely to escalate. The criminals involved in gun incidents far exceed by many times the "crime of passion" involvement in gun incidents. A criminal will be more likely, given that the vast majority of crimes are ones which have been premeditated, to think twice about committing the crime. In Foster City, California, the "SubWay" sandwich shop was commonly robbed by a gunman. This is an event which has been very frequent for this particular shop. The owner made it known that he had obtained a concealed carry license. The shop has not been robbed since, even though it's statistically "well overdue" now. > > At about that > > time a gunman walked into a California McDonald's and massacred people > > there. My firearms instructor was quick to point out that if at least one > > other person inside had a gun and knew how to use it, it would have been > > the gunman who'd end up massacred. > > That pre-supposes of course that the gunman isn't well trained in the > use firearms, which would be very likely if everyone was armed, as you > propose below. The gunman, of course, would still have the advantage > in the element of surprise. The only case I am aware of of people competent in the use of firearms due to training actually going on a killing spree is the University of Texas sniper incident, where the sniper was later found to have a brain tumor. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 18:54:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D1E37B664 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 18:54:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA10472; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:54:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAoEaatu; Tue Mar 28 19:53:59 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27463; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:54:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290254.TAA27463@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:54:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000326133218.A44329@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 26, 2000 01:32:18 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Criminals would be less likely to commit violent crimes if they expected > > most people to be armed and trained. > > Except that having most people carrying arms, you're raising the bar for > criminals because those who really want to commit crimes will be expecting to > be met with arms and will behave with that in mind. > > They won't hesit to fire first and you end up with more people shot. That's > not a solution. This incorrectly presupposes that criminals commit crimes because they want to, not because it's easier than the alternative. This is actually the kind of thinking that has led to differential penalties for crimes committed by minors, with the net result being things like adult drug dealer recruitment of minors, since adults wanted too much of a cut, due to their increased risk. Most criminals are not stupid, merely lazy. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19: 3:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35BD37BEAE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:02:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA28911; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:02:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA60aOs4; Tue Mar 28 20:02:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27687; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:02:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290302.UAA27687@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:02:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz (Craig Harding), adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 26, 2000 07:09:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's the same thing here. Empirically, there's only one country > that's really famous for frequent school shootings and stuff like > that, and that's the country with the most liberal gun-control > laws. Perhaps this is because America provides most of the sensational television. The rest of the world has a significantly higher rate of terrorism; I'm sure many terrorist countries are only too happy when their victim neighbors disarm their populace. Similarly, the U.S. has not really had mass violence incidents resulting in large scale death, which seem to be common in the rest of the world. The only real exceptions to this are the Civil War, the Revolutionary war, and government actions like those in Waco. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19:10:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C6C37BAC9 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:10:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA19866; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:09:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9JaWWM; Tue Mar 28 20:09:42 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA28005; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:10:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290310.UAA28005@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Spam e-mail headers To: johnmpurser@home.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:10:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000801bf9735$f19e2f80$40390918@vncvr1.wa.home.com> from "John Purser" at Mar 26, 2000 07:14:12 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm trying to track down the person to complain to about some SPAM I'm > receiving. > Return-Path: Attached by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com. > Received: from h3.mail.home.com ([24.2.2.27]) by mail.rdc1.wa.home.com > (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP > id > <20000326081639.USHJ12749.mail.rdc1.wa.home.com@h3.mail.home.com> > for ; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:39 -0800 Valid. > Received: from mx1-e.mail.home.com (mx1-e.mail.home.com [24.2.2.29]) > by h3.mail.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id AAA17883; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:38 -0800 (PST) Valid. > From: kasner@musician.org Attached by pimout4-int.prodigy.net. This is common, with SPAM. > Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net > [207.115.63.103]) > by mx1-e.mail.home.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA24197; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:16:38 -0800 (PST) Valid; immediately preceeds the supplied "From:". > Received: from smtp.prodigy.net (MIAMB106-30.splitrock.net [209.156.28.214]) > by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA67476; > Sun, 26 Mar 2000 03:15:16 -0500 Valid. The crosscheck field (compare the DNS name in the comment field with the one claimed in the "helo"; the comment field is the one in parenthesis) indicates the real culprit is the machine MIAMB106-30.splitrock.net [209.156.28.214]. This mail server is incidently misconfigured, since it did not attach a "From:". > Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.121.12) by > earthlink.net (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA01093 for > ; Sun, 26 Mar 2000 00:58:57 -0600 (EST) Forged. Basically, hearders are nothing more than data, and the only think you can trust is DNS forward and reverse address matching, since there are two different authorities involved for a valid forward and reverse DNS cross-check. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19:28:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B42437B54D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:28:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14730; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:22:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:22:16 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jay Nelson Cc: cjclark@home.com, Brad Knowles , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000328222216.A14473@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000327223602.B11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:22:46PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 06:22:46PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: [snip] > >Shooting yourself or someone else unintentionally is almost always > >stupid, but it's still an accident. I don't understand how you are > >saying this is more complicated. It's simple. People, everyone, you, > >me, and everyone reading this, make mistakes. If you want to classify > >them all as stupid, OK, but we all do it. And when one makes a mistake > >with a deadly weapon, which is going to happen at a certain rate > >because people do screw up, the stakes are just that much > >higher. Where's the complexity? > > With that attitude, you wouldn't last 30 seconds in the shooting > crowd. That attitude is not tolerated. It sure seems it is to me, and I have been around and in that crowd. You never ever point a gun at someone, even if it is not loaded because unloaded guns have this odd tendency to go off once in a while. The attitude I was taught when handling guns is always take precautions that assume you or someone else _has_ accidently left the gun loaded or otherwise made a mistake. I mean, is that not Rule Number One? Treat any gun like it were loaded even if you "know" its not? One assumes there will be small mistakes, but the correct way to handle a weapon prevents those small mistakes from compounding. Now, believing that you will not make mistakes because it is just unacceptable, _that_ spells trouble. And I have a headache. Thread done at this end. Oh, one thing about the Selective Service remark in one mail. I do remember I'm registered there and would have recently been reminded. Can you believe the Feds made me dig back and actually find my number in my records for a background check? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19:44: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6CA37BE66 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:43:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA25023; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:42:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzeaiXW; Tue Mar 28 20:42:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29263; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:43:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290343.UAA29263@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] To: cjclark@home.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:43:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Mar 27, 2000 10:16:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:35:20AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > [snip] > > > One of the things the Founding Fathers > > > did get right (even if some ammendments about bearing arms were > > > written too vaguely), give Congress the purse strings. > > > > I don't find it vague: > > > > A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security > > of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear > > arms, shall not be infringed. > > > > > > Even putting aside the tyrrany argument about "regulate", and > > whether the militia should be accountable to an ideal or to a > > government, regardless if that government becomes an oppressive > > regime... "shall not be infringed" is pretty unambiguous. > > Not so fast, you say it yourself. It says that the right to bear arms > in order to sustain a well regulated malitia will not be infringed. To > a certain extent, the militias of that era are what we would consider > the National Guard now-a-days. First of all, it says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.", not "the right of militia members to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Second, you need to look in a circa 1770's English dictionary for the word "regulated". It didn't mean then what it does now. > Even if you won't read it in that sense, it by no means says, "the > right of anyone to keep and bear any darn weapon they could ever > want." Personally, if you have not picked it up yet, I'm all for > people bearing rifles, shotguns, and "sport" weapons, but handguns, > assault weapons, etc. really serve no legitimate purpose in society at > large and there is no reason that they cannot be tightly regulated. Certainly there's no _technical_ reason they can't. The means for regulation, in the modern sense of the word, do exist. On the other hand, if Janet Reno drives up to my door in an M-1 Abrhams Main Battle Tank, I would feel a tad justified in owning an "assault weapon" ("a threatening weapon"). > Rights in the amendments aren't absolute. We have free speech and > press, but you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, nor is > slander in speech or writing protected. They all have limits that > can and should be imposed by the legislative and judicial branches. Actually, no they don't. The "``fire!'' in a crowded theater" has more to do with the results than the act. The U.S. Constitution does not _grant_ rights, it _acknowledges_ rights. People who think that the rights are _granted_ by the Constitution need to look up the word "inalienable". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19:50:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB7037BEC0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14791; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:44:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:44:00 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Jamie Bowden Cc: cjclark@home.com, Terry Lambert , Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000328224400.B14473@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:52:20AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 07:52:20AM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > :On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 07:36:23PM -0800, Jamie Bowden wrote: > :> On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > :> Tell me something; which gun exactly, isn't an assault weapon? I'm > :> curious, as last I looked any gun could be used for: sport, self defense, > :> hunting, murder, etc. You start banning 'assault' weapons (and let's be > :> honest, a chair is an assualt weapon if you're willing to bludgeon someone > :> with it), and pretty soon none are left. Are we, as a society only going > :> to allow plastic unsharpened knives in restaurants? Are we going to go > :> back to living in bare huts made of leaves because anything else is far > :> too dangerous? Are you getting the point yet? > > :Oh please, not the classic logical fallacy of the "slippery slope." > :When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, > :speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and > :ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific > :purpose of injuring or killing human beings. I'm sure the lawyers in > :the legislature will be more than happy to define assault weapons in > :painfully precise and unfathomable legalese for you if that definition > :will not do. > > Fallacy? If it's such a fallacy why did the folks who founded the US go > out of there way to make it a difficult slope to start down? You may > dismiss it all you wish. I believe history would bear me out on this. > Once you start giving up rights and priviledges to authority, you do not > get them back without extreme measures. Gee you're right. Remember the armed battles to get the voting age dropped to 18? Or when women got the vote earlier this century? Look, guns are already regulated. Like the NRA says, enforce the laws we already have. I don't think any reasonable person claims that _anyone_ should be able to by _any weapon_ on a whim. Does that mean that we've already set on down this slippery slope? Here, maybe I can start an even _better_ thread than gun control and point out how the fear of the ol' slippery slope theory makes both sides of the abortion debate look like zealots... even the ones that aren't. > Now, let me ask you another question. What's the difference between a > Winchester .30 cal. semiautomatic rifle that holds multiple rounds, and a > Chinese SKS 7.62mm semiautomatic rifle that holds multiple rounds? Other > than the fact that one looks like you're "assult" weapon poster child, > very little. The Winchester's easier to scope up for better accuracy. So > clarify for me, other than twisted semantics, what's the difference? If they are _really_ semi-automatic and are properly designed so that conversion to automatic is impossible or very difficult, then I could not care less what the guns look like; there is no difference. However, the ammunition is important too. For example, one loaded with armor-piercing rounds magically becomes an assault weapon. [snip] > You claim that banning certain types of guns is an acceptable compromise. > I say prove it, since I can use an 'approved for target or hunting' gun to > shoot you just as easily I can use an 'assault weapon' to do it. Well, the only way to really prove it would be to actually try it, and from your fear of slippery slopes, I don't think you'd be up for that. That leaves us analysing other data sources and trying to extraoplate the results to the US. Once we clear the air of useless anecdotal evidence, I'll invevitably trot out statistics about the drastically lower gun crime rates and overall violent crime rates in nations with very strict gun laws (lotsa European nations). You'll then trot out your own statistics showing how my statistics were doctored, and you'll toss in about how the US is unique, has its own traditions, yada-yada, and say it would not work. I'll then pull out statistics saying your statistcs were doctored to make my statistics look doctored and on and on and on and on and on... And this headache of mine will just get worse. Done. Really done this time. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 19:52:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 018B037B523 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:52:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA27747; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:51:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHBai41; Tue Mar 28 20:50:47 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29470; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:51:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003290351.UAA29470@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] To: cjclark@home.com Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:51:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Mar 27, 2000 10:56:20 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, > speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and > ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific > purpose of injuring or killing human beings. I'm actually perfectly happy to define them as "firearms and ammunitions designed for citizens to defend themselves against military or police enforcement of tyrranies, such as taxation without representation by a foreign power, such as the British Crown". And in my book, that means that citizens should own them, unless you can somehow guarantee that the government under which you currently live will never become corrupt or tyrranical. This nation (the United States) was born from armed citizens with as good or better weapons than their oppressors rising up against tyrrany. This was less than 225 years ago, which is only about three times the current adult life expectances. We should be prepared to do it again, if we have to, and again, and to keep doing it until there are no more tyrants. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 20:16:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f3.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B87D237B5BB for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmd526@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 12639 invoked by uid 0); 29 Mar 2000 04:16:44 -0000 Message-ID: <20000329041644.12638.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.220.228.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:16:44 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.220.228.2] From: "John Daniels" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDCon East Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:16:44 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi: I'm coming into this discussion kind of late so I hope this is not redundant. Each city has good points and bad. A spreadsheet/listing of these points might help. Some locations I have seen suggested seem a bit far-fetched. I think a choice has to be made as to how much BSDCon East should be about advocacy/marketing/reaching out and how much it should be a vacation and gathering for the current FreeBSD community. For sheer numbers of people who might be attracted to learn more about FreeBSD, NYC would make a good choice. NYC just had a big Linux convention that I understand was very successful. Many of those people might be interested in FreeBSD, and many more who are just starting to consider FreeBSD/Linux and OpenSource might also be interested. Also, other vendors might be more willing to participate in BSDCon East, if attendence was expected to be high. NYC is fairly central in the heavily populated northeast, where I imagine the largest pool of potential attendees are located. For virtually all of these people, NYC can be reached fairly easily and inexpensively by car, AMTRAK, or the D.C. or Boston shuttle (air). NYC is also easier to reach, and generally a more attractive location, for any potential international visitors. Negatives: NYC is more expensive for attendees. NYC has a more hectic, less relaxed atmosphere. Alligators in the sewers. FYI: I live in NYC. But I am not necessarily biased for NYC since I enjoy getting out of the city when I can. I *am* biased getting out the FreeBSD message and enlarging the FreeBSD community. John ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 28 20:18:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DCA37C023 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA14890; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:15:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:15:58 -0500 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@home.com, Jamie Bowden , Mark Ovens , Jay Nelson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000328231558.C14473@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Reply-To: cjclark@home.com References: <20000327225620.C11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> <200003290351.UAA29470@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200003290351.UAA29470@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:51:35AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:51:35AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > When I, and anyone else not engaged in warping another's argument, > > speak of "assault weapons" we are talking about firearms and > > ammunitions designed for military or police use and the specific > > purpose of injuring or killing human beings. > > I'm actually perfectly happy to define them as "firearms and > ammunitions designed for citizens to defend themselves against > military or police enforcement of tyrranies, such as taxation > without representation by a foreign power, such as the British > Crown". And in my book, that means that citizens should own > them, unless you can somehow guarantee that the government > under which you currently live will never become corrupt or > tyrranical. > > This nation (the United States) was born from armed citizens > with as good or better weapons than their oppressors rising > up against tyrrany. This was less than 225 years ago, which > is only about three times the current adult life expectances. > > We should be prepared to do it again, if we have to, and again, > and to keep doing it until there are no more tyrants. How do we know the guy leading the crowds of gun owners is not the tyrant? Well, in the spirit of the 1770's, I'll let you do the fighting. Roughly a third of the people back then were pro-Independence, another third were Loyalists, and another third really didn't care less. Lucky for the Independence crowd, the French showed up and the British had bigger things to worry about at the time. I'd probably be in that last, "careless" crowd. I wouldn't need a gun, but the fact everybody else will be armed to the teeth... *sigh* You want me to need one, huh? I guess maybe I do. French probably won't come bail my ass out this time 'round. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 0:14:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7ADF37B715 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 7429 invoked by uid 211); 29 Mar 2000 08:06:33 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 29 Mar 2000 08:06:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:36:33 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Craig Harding , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and In-Reply-To: <200003290302.UAA27687@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Perhaps this is because America provides most of the sensational > television. > > The rest of the world has a significantly higher rate of > terrorism; I'm sure many terrorist countries are only too happy > when their victim neighbors disarm their populace. You're saying it would be better somehow if the victims were armed? In places with already heavy terrorist problems, the terrorists may use machine guns. For instance, Kashmir. But that's a more complicated problem than just terrorism. When they strike in a relatively peaceful area, with the intent of drawing attention to themselves, they use bombs. In America, too. (You can't walk around in the middle of a big city with a machine gun, and you can't kill a large number of people with a pistol.) Moreover, they either escape well before the blast, or are suicide bombers. Try using a gun against that. Anyway, that has little to do with regular violent crime. I lived in Delhi, which had a terrorist problem in the 1980s, as in bombs would randomly go off in buses. Delhi's not regarded as totally safe even crime-wise, but I've never been mugged or robbed at gunpoint/knifepoint there, and don't personally know anyone who has. Yes, crime does happen, killings too, but it's not like you walk into any "unsafe" area and you're immediately asking for it. In other cities in India one can walk around safely at all hours of night. I've heard that that's impossible in most places in the US; I've never been to the US myself, and most people past their twenties tell me they've been mugged at least a few times. I'm not saying that the solution is to disarm the population in the US: I know that won't work. But there is a problem of how to deal with increasing violence, in America and elsewhere, and I don't think arming ordinary people is the solution. I absolutely don't understand the moral / "democratic rights" / "our founding fathers wanted it" arguments in favour of guns at all. The one statement on this thread which I fully agree with is the idea that all gunholders should have compulsory training and pass thorough tests before being given a licence. But I'm still unconvinced that anyone willing to go through such training should be given a gun. > Similarly, the U.S. has not really had mass violence incidents > resulting in large scale death, which seem to be common in the > rest of the world. The only real exceptions to this are the > Civil War, the Revolutionary war, and government actions like > those in Waco. If Bin Laden and his group were in Canada, rather than halfway around the world, you would not be able to say that. Even now terrorists only go to America in numbers of dozens at most, not thousands. I'd like to know the British opinion about the IRA problem, especially in the 70s and 80s, and whether it would have helped if ordinary people had been given guns. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 3: 0: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A5137B593 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip172.berlin68.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.68.172] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 12aGCU-0005H2-00; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:59:51 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id 6E8A33F5; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:59:40 +0200 (CEST) To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest Mozilla, M14 References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 29 Mar 2000 12:59:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Mon, 27 Mar 2000 09:05:04 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > Of course, IE has problems too. It doesn't comply with a bunch of > RFCs. It can't follow all legal URLs, since it parses \ as /. It > appears not to obey the server's content-type headers, prefering > to follow the file name extension. IIRC a colleague of mine said this is fixed in IE5. Greetings, -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 4:33:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA9837B640 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 04:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com) Received: from bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com (bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com [209.191.60.123]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16205 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03101 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:39:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200003291239.HAA03101@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> Subject: BSDcon East In-Reply-To: from freebsd-chat-digest at "Mar 28, 2000 05:32:45 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:39:17 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > > At 5:28 PM -0700 2000/3/27, Brett Glass wrote: > > > If one wanted to do the convention near DC, Baltimore would be a > > good choice because there are lots of bargain airfares and a > > glut of hotel rooms in the area. Yup... and the Baltimore Inner Harbor area has quite a nice collection of tourist attractions... including a slick Aquarium, Science Museum, Camden Yard, the B&O railroad museuum and a ton of hotels right in a close area. > > Baltimore is quite a bit cheaper than the DC area, but is also > close enough that you can still consider flying into Dulles or > Washington National and making the drive, taking the bus, or taking > the train to make that final connection. > > Finally, for those people who might be doing some vacation in and > around the time, it's closer to both DC (if you want to do > sightseeing) and the Virginia/Maryland/Delaware/New Jersey coast -- > only about three hours away from Long Island New Jersey (where a > friend of mine owns a beach house ;-). > Long Beach Island... 8-) > > If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that > the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can > think of, and has fewer drawbacks. > I think this would be an excellent place... I don't have a good idea as to how large a place would be needed. In addition to the large number of hotels, there is a fairly large conference center there as well... My last trip down they were holding a tow truck convention with towing operators from all across the country. All the free parking areas were loaded with tow trucks. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 5:32: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 286EF37B7AC; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:31:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: cjclark@home.com, tlambert@primenet.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003290343.UAA29263@usr05.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:43:42 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000329133154.286EF37B7AC@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:31:54 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On the other hand, if Janet Reno drives up to my door in an > M-1 Abrhams Main Battle Tank, I would feel a tad justified in > owning an "assault weapon" ("a threatening weapon"). > Terrry, now what would you do with that bullet firing assult weapon against Janet Reno in a M-1 Abrhams Main Battle Tank? A very significant proportion of infantry use their rifle (assault or otherwise) infrequently. One of the main jobs of sargents in several armies is to get other their soldiers to fire their rifles. The feeling of impotence when holding a rifle while confronting an armored emeny is very nearly overwhelming. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 5:36:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 5372F37B55A; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: cjclark@home.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, tlambert@primenet.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003290351.UAA29470@usr05.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Wed, 29 Mar 2000 03:51:35 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This nation (the United States) was born from armed citizens > with as good or better weapons than their oppressors rising > up against tyrrany. This was less than 225 years ago, which > is only about three times the current adult life expectances. > 1776: British Army: muskets and cannon. Revolutionaries: muskets. not too inequal 1999: British Army: tanks, arty, rifles Revolutionaries: rifles. ouch. trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles is a real bear. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 6:20:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9412037B579 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:20:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 26957 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2000 14:20:11 -0000 Received: from du04.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.4) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 29 Mar 2000 14:20:11 -0000 Message-ID: <38E210E9.3FE7F5E8@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:19:21 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > is a real bear. > An excellent argument for allowing the populace to have more powerful weapons. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 6:48:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B9D37B73B for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:48:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA31566; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:48:13 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:48:13 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <38E210E9.3FE7F5E8@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > > is a real bear. > > > > An excellent argument for allowing the populace to have more powerful > weapons. So some disgruntled employee can go on a shooting rampage with his naplam equipped assault helicopter? Brilliant idea! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 6:52:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pointer.raytheon.co.uk (pointer.raytheon.co.uk [193.115.14.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918C337BFF7 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk) Received: from retriever.raytheon.co.uk (unverified) by pointer.raytheon.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:58:14 +0100 Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:40:34 +0000 Message-Id: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on RSLHUB/SVR/RAYTHEONUK(Release 5.0.2c (Intl)|2 February 2000) at 29/03/2000 15:51:08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I know this is an off-topic list, but I didn't know it'd get this off topic :) Anyway, what was that comment about the British Army and rifles I heard a while ago? Sounded like an insult to some degree. Please read the following if you are American and made that comment:- /* flame bait If you were American, then here's a little thought for you:- During the Gulf war, you killed more allies than you did the enemy. Thats a pretty bad record even considering the US Army are as stupid as they are. Don't go criticising the British Army... end flame bait :) */ No offense intended here, but it's the truth. Thanks Chris. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 7: 1:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82B137B6ED for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:01:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r2.bfm.org [216.127.220.98]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:02:44 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329090138.0086c270@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:01:38 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Rights and the Constitution Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200003290343.UAA29263@usr05.primenet.com> References: <20000327221634.A11538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:43 29-03-2000 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >The U.S. Constitution does not _grant_ rights, >it _acknowledges_ rights. A very important distinction it is! I was just wondering recently (totally independent of present discussion), how many people realize that. Especially in these strange times when many of our supposed representatives are more concerned with symbols (attempting to ammend the Constitution with the ban on burning the flag) than with basic human rights. Yes, rights are rights. Period. For millenia human rights were violated because it was up to the law to dictate what you could or could not do. And in many parts of the world that still is the case. The US Constitution was an important step in recognizing that rights come from human nature, not from the whim of a king (so was Magna Charta and other documents, I am not saying the US Constitution was the first, just that it was an important step). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 7: 9:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67EE637C048 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:09:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 12aK5e-000CNK-00; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:09:02 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03843 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:09:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:09:02 +0100 From: J McKitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: "The Matrix" visual effects Message-ID: <20000329160902.A3761@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I heard a lot about FreeBSD being used for the matrix special effects. But when i saw the 'behind the scenes' on the DVD, a lot of what i thought was computer effects was doen through innovative photography techniques. Does anyone know what effects were actually generated on BSD machines? jm -- -------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org The spice must flow.... -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 7:22: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0455B37C110 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 15112 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2000 15:21:59 -0000 Received: from du04.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.4) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 29 Mar 2000 15:21:59 -0000 Message-ID: <38E21F64.66407397@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:21:08 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk wrote: > > If you were American, then here's a little thought for you:- > During the Gulf war, you killed more allies than you did the enemy. US, British, French, and Egyptian casualties, killed and wounded, totalled 1082. You can't seriously mean that Iraq suffered fewer casualties than that. If they had, they'd still be in Kuwait. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 7:46:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1302.mail.yahoo.com (web1302.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C11E537B65B for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:46:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpiponi@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 12732 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Mar 2000 15:46:50 -0000 Message-ID: <20000329154650.12731.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.7.201.244] by web1302.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:46:50 PST Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:46:50 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Piponi Subject: Re: "The Matrix" visual effects To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org J McKitrick asked: "Does anyone know what effects were actually generated on BSD machines?" Pixar sell a 3d renderer called Renderman which they provide as IRIX and Linux binaries (among other things). The Linux binaries were in fact run on our 64 FreeBSD CPUs. Basically any 3D rendering was quite likely to have been done on the FreeBSD machines (we can't say exactly what because CPUs are allocated automatically from a pool via a queuing system). This includes things like the big completely CG view of the foetus fields or the shots of the Nebuchadnezzar and its environment. "a lot of what i thought was computer effects was done through innovative photography" It took 18 months to convert those photographs into something that was good enough to show on film. Much of that work was, however, intensive 2D work, not 3D work, and so was carried out on SGIs. (I wrote any custom 2D code that was used.) (I only speak for Manex Visual Effects - there were quite a few shots from other visual effects companies too.) -- Dan Piponi Head of R&D Manex Visual Effects __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 8:43:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF9E837B680 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:43:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115F5349D; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:43:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:43:30 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: andyt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <200003271908.TAA73339@afua.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's my $0.02: 1. Orlando - home, so I'm biased :-) 2. Atlanta - easy to get to (1hr 15min flight) 3. Anywhere but NYC - unions! 4. Boston - nice but pricey On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, andyt wrote: > Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:16:02 -0800 > From: andyt > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: BSDCon East > > Why not pick a place that is inexpensive to fly to? and a place that is > worth driving to in early spring? > Say Orlando Florida? You can incorporate the bsdcon with a week vacation > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 10:47:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5712037B575; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:47:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA18359; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:46:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9xayTJ; Wed Mar 29 11:46:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA22406; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:46:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003291846.LAA22406@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:46:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jhb@FreeBSD.ORG (John Baldwin), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Mar 28, 2000 01:14:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > and complement? I swear I can't remember when I last saw them used > correctly outside a dictionary or a printed book. That's some very nice base-2 arithmatic you have there... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11: 6:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [216.99.193.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F42137B5FD for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12377; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:06:40 -0800 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id LAA07607; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:06:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:06:17 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Dan Piponi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "The Matrix" visual effects In-Reply-To: <20000329154650.12731.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It took 18 months to convert those photographs into > something that was good enough to show on film. Much > of that work was, however, intensive 2D work, not 3D > work, and so was carried out on SGIs. (I wrote any > custom 2D code that was used.) > > (I only speak for Manex Visual Effects - there were > quite a few shots from other visual effects companies > too.) And a great job too! Can you tell us if you're working on or have been contacted regarding the 2nd and 3rd movies? Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11: 9:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.svr.pol.co.uk (mail2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21FA37B78D for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from s.mitchell@computer.org) Received: from modem-179.clown-trigger.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.250.179] helo=lungfish.freeserve.co.uk) by mail2.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 12aNqP-00087G-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:09:33 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by lungfish.freeserve.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02175; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:02:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <20000328220200.25327@lungfish.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:02:00 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hijackings (was Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to... References: <38DDD723.C01AD233@outpost.co.nz> <200003280055.RAA07427@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <200003280055.RAA07427@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:55:16AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 28, 2000 at 12:55:16AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Building metal detectors into the door frames might be a good > start. How often are there firearm incidents in U.S. commercial > aircraft these days? Let's put it another way: I can't remember > the last U.S. hijacking, but I certainly remember the last British > one. Which was? Just curious, not claiming that anyone's memory is faulty. There's been a couple of recent incidents where non-British aircraft hijacked *elsewhere* ended up in the UK, supposedly because the British hostage-crisis types have a good reputation for dealing with these things without bloodshed. Can't recall any aircraft being hijacked in (or after departing from, I guess) Britain in the last decade. Now that I've foolishly joined this thread, I stand ready to be corrected though :-) Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" s.mitchell@computer.org | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11:13:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCFC37BE34 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:12:17 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "David Scheidt" , "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Subject: RE: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:12:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000e01bf99b2$b2aeece0$0100000a@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > > > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > > > is a real bear. > > > > > > > An excellent argument for allowing the populace to have more powerful > > weapons. > > So some disgruntled employee can go on a shooting rampage with his naplam > equipped assault helicopter? Brilliant idea! Don't worry about it, he'd be shot down in seconds by my anti-aircraft battery. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11:14:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515FF37BD6D for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@planet.nl) Received: from ipc379903a.dial.wxs.nl ([195.121.144.58]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 4.05) with ESMTP id FS76QW01.Y4O; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:13:44 +0200 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:13:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Veldman X-Sender: freebsd@kwetal.lurkie.org To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] In-Reply-To: <38E21F64.66407397@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk wrote: > > If you were American, then here's a little thought for you:- > > During the Gulf war, you killed more allies than you did the enemy. > > US, British, French, and Egyptian casualties, killed and wounded, > totalled 1082. You can't seriously mean that Iraq suffered fewer > casualties than that. If they had, they'd still be in Kuwait. I think Chris meant to say that the number of allies killed by friendly fire was larger than te number of allies killed by enemy fire. I don't whether that's true or not though... =========================================================================== Get off the keyboard you furry feline ! Marc Veldman, CFBSDN (Certified FreeBSD Newbie) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11:18:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F62837B7A8; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:16:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03160; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:16:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjzaWfg; Wed Mar 29 12:16:12 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23103; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:16:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003291916.MAA23103@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:16:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav), jhb@FreeBSD.ORG (John Baldwin), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38E0F56F.CE20A131@gorean.org> from "Doug Barton" at Mar 28, 2000 10:09:51 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Another point of agreement so far is that BSDCon-east should > > > compliment BSDCon-west by being at the opposite end of the year, > > > > When are you merkins going to learn the difference between compliment > > and complement? > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. > > *grumble grumble* If we are going to whine about the manual of style... 1) Enumerated lists need the additional comma, e.g.: this, that, and the other is correct, but: this, that and the other is incorrect, despite it having been documented in English books originating in California. 2) Terminal punctuation at the ends of sentences is supposed to be followed by two spaces, e.g.: This is correct. This sentence is distinct. is correct, but: This is incorrect. Not everyone is too lazy to hit the space bar on their computer, or assumes the font their reader will use. Even the "vi" editor knows this one. Try a "join" ("J") on the following two lines: Trust in "vi". It will do a correct "join". 3) It seems to have become fashionable to blur the distinction between terminal punctionation inside and outside of a set of quotation marks, e.g.: "Some twit thought this up." as opposed to: "This is correct, but appears odd, due to not being part of a proper narrative form.". This seems to have come about as a result of an inability of many recently ``educated'' people to distinguish written narrative from implied emphasis -- such as that used on the word ``educated'', previously in this sentence. This probably has to do with the lack of guillemot characters in written English, and the fact that italicization appears to be becoming somewhat of a lost art. 4) Concommitant to #3, it appears that the converse of the mistake is made, when writing real narrative, as in "Stop!", yelled the bobby, "or I shall yell ``Stop!'' again!". Note that the narrative itself was not intended to be in an emphatic style, but the words of the character in the narrative were. Also note the lack of capitalization which follows the inital ``Stop!'', the lack of italics when the the character quotes himself, the lack of capitalization of the leading ``or'' following the character tagging, and the construction of the actual end of the sentence. For people who don't understand the ``or'', consider the intended flow of the character's words, as opposed to the intended flow of the narrative. The initial ``Stop!'' was intended as emphatic, but there wwas no intended pause; the exclamation point was merely use as a means of tagging the start of a sentence, before dropping into the narrative voice, with the full intention of returning back to the character's voice. These are merely the most annoying and most frequent mistakes; don't even get me started on plural vs. posessive ``s''. Yes, I fully expect to be ``flamed'' for any mistakes in this posting, now that I've exposed myself... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11:19:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8481037BFC2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA27408; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:18:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAYjaWy1; Wed Mar 29 12:18:10 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23219; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:18:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003291918.MAA23219@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSDCon East To: mph@astro.caltech.edu (Matthew Hunt) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:18:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey), Doug@gorean.org (Doug Barton), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000328103656.B43430@wopr.caltech.edu> from "Matthew Hunt" at Mar 28, 2000 10:36:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Or your/you're. This one is driving me nuts lately. That, and people > > > referring to "subj" in the body of their e-mail. > > > > What, no its/it's grumbling? Your too merciful. > > Shirley you meant to write "to merciful". Don't call him, surely. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 11:37:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E67F37B5D9 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:36:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA29958; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:35:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAbCaGA6; Wed Mar 29 12:35:11 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23741; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:36:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:36:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: cjclark@home.com, blk@skynet.be (Brad Knowles), mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Mar 28, 2000 06:22:46 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [snip] > > > >But rarely, see we all agree. And wouldn't it be nice if in most of > >those cases, neither one of the people in the situation had a gun? > > The preferred weapon on the street is a knife and knives are > consistently more lethal than firearms. I stand a better chance of > surviving a gunshot than a knife wound. You should worry more about the > knives than guns. There are two rules for an unarmed martial artist, when someone comes at them with a knife, and they can't avoid the situation: 1) Expect to be cut. 2) Expect to kill the other person. I definitely agree that knives are more dangerous that guns; I have seen a Tai Chi Chu'an swordsman at work. Even with a practice sword, he was able to defeat 6 well trained unarmed combatants. With a real sword, I suspect he could hold off 12, until all 12 were dead. This is a heavily trained person, but the people he was fighting were also heavily trained. In a street situation, most knife-fighters are not so heavily trained, and an unarmed marital artist could defeat them; but they would have to go in expecting to be cut, even by an amatuer who was intent on harming them. A knife is far less restricted in its ability to do damage than a gun is; a gun can only do damage where it is pointed, but a knife can do damage in a plane, starting from in front of the business end of the knife. Consider the difference between kicking a gun and kicking a knife, given a two seconds window in which the kickee is unable to react because their neurons are still processing the fact that a kick has occurred. You are much more likely to cut yourself on a knife through its inertia than you are to cause a gun to fire while it is still being pointed at you. > When you handle a weapon, there is no excuse for _any_ unplanned > event. Period, end of discussion. If you spent any time at all around > people who use firearms, you would realize that there is _zero_ > tolerance for "unfortunate events." The weapon is under control at all > times, under any circumstance. Ask some of your police friends about > that. Returning to the kick, it is the momentum imparted to the gun relative to the inertia of the hand holding it that results in the trigger being pulled and causing an unintended-by-the-wielder gun discharge. For this to occur, the gun has to be significantly displaced, generally so much so that it can not possibly be pointed at the originally threatened person when it discharges. The knife, if firmly held, cuts the hell out of your foot, which has the aditional negative effect of making it harder to run away, even if you succeed in kicking it out of the assailents hands. > The few times I have been in that situation, here in the States, it > was a knife they pulled. I would have preferred they pulled a gun; they > would have been easier to disarm with less risk. But, they don't show > that in the movies, either. Agreed. It's also a fact that most handgun echanges take place at close range, without anyone getting hit for an insanely large number of rounds fired. That's isn't very exciting to watch in a theater, either, since you are really waiting for Mel Gibson to shoot the thugs in a subplot, and then get back onto the main story line... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 12: 5:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.nc.rr.com (fe1.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9073137BF7F for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:05:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from SATURN98 ([24.25.17.94]) by mail1.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:05:20 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:08:27 -0500 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.39) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14630.000329@nc.rr.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hosting recommendations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Short of going throw the whole gallery of FreeBSD users, can anyone recommend a good company to host a new site that is dependable, fast connection to a backbone, and not too expensive? I like On-Line Marketing (www.olm.net), and they have a customized version of RedHat, but I was trying to stick with FreeBSD. Thanks, Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 12: 6:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBB1037B545 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.72.90] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12aObV-0000gv-00; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:58:13 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01271; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:06:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:06:14 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Dan Piponi , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Message-ID: <20000329210614.E237@parish> References: <20000327152009.11985.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com>; from MatrixFan@FilmSFX.com on Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 12:28:20PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 27, 2000 at 12:28:20PM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 07:20 27-03-2000 -0800, Dan Piponi wrote: > >> As we all know, these were made on a computer > >running > >> FreeBSD. > > > >Ahhh! Those were the days when you could do visual > >effects using just *a* computer! :-) > > Yes, of course. I did not mean to imply you only used one. :) > > > Actualy the > >rendering was done on a render farm consisting of 32 > >Dell twin proc Pentium II's running FreeBSD alongside > >a similar number of IRIX machines. Those FreeBSD boxes > >really saved our asses at the final render crunch! > > And what a fine job you did! The Matrix is now my all-time favorite movie. > Kudos to you. > Now that FreeBSD is associated with an Academy Award winner, and Kirk is so disapproving of the name Chuck (IMHO Beastie has connotations that those who believe he is a *demon* may see as confirmation), maybe we should re-name the little fellow Oscar. Oh well, just a thought. > Do you have a web site where you talk about it? I'd love to visit it. I > really enjoy the special effects addenda on the video release. > > Cheers, > Adam > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 12:49:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.nc.rr.com (fe1.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6288E37B642 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@nc.rr.com) Received: from SATURN98 ([24.25.17.94]) by mail1.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.357.35); Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:49:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:52:17 -0500 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.39) UNREG / CD5BF9353B3B7091 Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1661.000329@nc.rr.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re[2]: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and In-reply-To: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> The few times I have been in that situation, here in the States, it >> was a knife they pulled. I would have preferred they pulled a gun; they >> would have been easier to disarm with less risk. But, they don't show >> that in the movies, either. TL> Agreed. TL> It's also a fact that most handgun echanges take place at close TL> range, without anyone getting hit for an insanely large number TL> of rounds fired. That's isn't very exciting to watch in a TL> theater, either, since you are really waiting for Mel Gibson TL> to shoot the thugs in a subplot, and then get back onto the TL> main story line... I cannot remember when a movie ever well represented real life. And I hope they never do, that would be boring. Isn't always fun to see how some white guy can simultaneously take on couple Ninjas? -- Best regards, Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 13: 2:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37C737BAF5 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from ns1.titanhosting.com (ns1.titanhosting.com [216.3.179.5]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:11:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:11:25 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Lynch X-Sender: lynch@ns1.titanhosting.com To: Marc Veldman Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > If you were American, then here's a little thought for you:- > > > During the Gulf war, you killed more allies than you did the enemy. > > Yeah, we probably killed more of our own troops than Iraq's fearsome army did. I wonder how many of them we (Americans) killed? Was it actually near the hundred thousand, we've been told? I know we annialated an entire interstate of stolen cars filled with iraqi troops( bad I Yeah, we probably killed more of our own troops than Iraq's fearsome army did. I wonder how many of them we (Americans) killed? Was it actually near the hundred thousand, we've been told? I know we annialated an entire interstate of stolen cars filled with iraqi troops( bad Idea, if you were an Iraqi fleeing kuwait.) in the end, since We end up being the watchdog for everyone (You see it's either, You beg us for help, or you hate us for not helping...either way, most of us don't really care anymore as far as which country thinks we're evil. We've watched enough bbc to grow callous to whether or not terrorist hate us for being american. that's why the government is trigger happy, ala the nigerian plant that was destroyed a while back. We're also paranoid when it comes to arab terrorist( which SUCKS if you are an Arab-American trying just to survive here), but, then again who cares, most Americans Fear EAch Other, not some Foreign power...how the hell is going to Invade this place, short from nukes We are safer from invasion. In the US, people blow each other away for whatever reason, such as, I get picked on, so I'm going to go kill the a few people. After the news is over Entertainment Tonight comes on...DAMN, look at what SHe's Wearing!!!...so much for making an impression. We have more problems with God-fearing gun toting psychopaths here than anyone else. Ask most people who Bin-Laden is they don't know. Ask them what Jennifer Lopez was wearing 90% can tell you. We have more problems with people here wanting to blow it up or shoot up the place. Give all Americans Guns. What the hell. The Big Ol Gun argument should have a middle ground...Either take them ALL away , or give everyone a Gun. It doesn't matter to me. If I have a gun and some asshole walks into MAcdonalds and starts shooting, I'm shooting back. BUT, if we don't have guns, he has to walk in with a Slingshot, which means we will just kick his ass. Plus, will future releases of FreeBSD be shipped WITH Guns or Without?? Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 15: 0:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from carbon.btinternet.com (carbon.btinternet.com [194.73.73.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192F137BAEF for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:59:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [213.1.191.110] (helo=parish.my.domain) by carbon.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12aRRJ-0001v6-00; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:59:53 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01756; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:59:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:59:51 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Neill Robins Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and Message-ID: <20000329235951.A1488@parish> References: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> <1661.000329@nc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <1661.000329@nc.rr.com>; from freebsd@nc.rr.com on Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:52:17PM -0500 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 03:52:17PM -0500, Neill Robins wrote: > >> The few times I have been in that situation, here in the States, it > >> was a knife they pulled. I would have preferred they pulled a gun; they > >> would have been easier to disarm with less risk. But, they don't show > >> that in the movies, either. > > TL> Agreed. > > TL> It's also a fact that most handgun echanges take place at close > TL> range, without anyone getting hit for an insanely large number > TL> of rounds fired. That's isn't very exciting to watch in a > TL> theater, either, since you are really waiting for Mel Gibson > TL> to shoot the thugs in a subplot, and then get back onto the > TL> main story line... > > I cannot remember when a movie ever well represented real life. > And I hope they never do, that would be boring. > Whilst it's true that the movies and TV do portray, to outsiders at least, America as a country full of gun-toting loonies most of us can separate Hollywood fantasy from fact. Obviously the Dirty Harry films, for instance, are just pure Hollywood, however I always felt that Hill Street Blues (one of the 3 best TV series to come out of the US, IMHO) was a fairly realistic view of life in that particular environment (big city suburb). Whilst there was a lot of gun-play it did show the police behaving in a sensible, restrained manner in that they always tried to negotiate a peaceful end to an armed siege situation for example, albeit mixed with a bit of "artistic licence" such as Belker wanting to bite everyone he arrested and Hunter wanting to go in guns a-blazing at every opportunity. Was it really realistic? Comments from US citizens would be interesting. BTW, am I correct in thinking that it was filmed around Chicago? > Isn't always fun to see how some white guy can simultaneously take on > couple Ninjas? > > -- > Best regards, > Neill > freebsd@nc.rr.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 15: 3:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7EE937B67D for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 46018 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2000 23:03:03 -0000 Received: from erstumper.outpost.co.nz (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.7) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 29 Mar 2000 23:03:03 -0000 Message-ID: <38E28C78.AAD53DBE@outpost.co.nz> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:06:32 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and References: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > It's also a fact that most handgun echanges take place at close > range, without anyone getting hit for an insanely large number > of rounds fired. That's isn't very exciting to watch in a > theater, either, since you are really waiting for Mel Gibson > to shoot the thugs in a subplot, and then get back onto the > main story line... c.f. one of the first episodes of ER in the current series. Armed perp and security guard exchange fire in hospital corridor at around 15m range, both emptying magazines. Only injury is to the guard when he falls onto broken glass. So they do get it right (kind of), sometimes. Or Pulp Fiction, of course. -- C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 15:41:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E7637B537 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@tutopia.com) Received: from tutopia.com ([168.176.3.36]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6AA for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:39:10 -0500 Message-ID: <38E2943F.1DEE27F8@tutopia.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:39:43 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and References: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > There are two rules for an unarmed martial artist, when someone comes > at them with a knife, and they can't avoid the situation: > 0) Run as fast as you can. > 1) Expect to be cut. > 2) Expect to kill the other person. > I had heard number 1 but not number 2. 3) don't stay around to see if they are dead or not, and above all don't call the police. On this cases the Martial Artist usually gets sued for damages. > I definitely agree that knives are more dangerous that guns; I > have seen a Tai Chi Chu'an swordsman at work. Even with a > practice sword, he was able to defeat 6 well trained unarmed > combatants. With a real sword, I suspect he could hold off 12, > until all 12 were dead. > Guns are more dangerous. In traditional Martial Arts there are no techniques against guns. The personal defense techniques showed sometimes on exhibitions correspond to adaptations of anti-knife tecniques. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 16:21:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF82D37BC03 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MatrixFan@filmsfx.com) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:22:12 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329182123.0086d3a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:21:23 -0600 To: Mark Ovens From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20000329210614.E237@parish> References: <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> <20000327152009.11985.qmail@web1302.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20000327122820.00b2f320@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:06 29-03-2000 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >Now that FreeBSD is associated with an Academy Award winner, and Kirk >is so disapproving of the name Chuck (IMHO Beastie has connotations >that those who believe he is a *demon* may see as confirmation), maybe >we should re-name the little fellow Oscar. > > Oh well, just a thought. How about naming him Neo? ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 16:31: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCF637BC03 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:31:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:32:09 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329183121.0086d3a0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:31:21 -0600 To: Neill Robins , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Hosting recommendations In-Reply-To: <14630.000329@nc.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 15:08 29-03-2000 -0500, Neill Robins wrote: >Short of going throw the whole gallery of FreeBSD users, can anyone >recommend a good company to host a new site that is dependable, fast >connection to a backbone, and not too expensive? > >I like On-Line Marketing (www.olm.net), and they have a customized >version of RedHat, but I was trying to stick with FreeBSD. Personally, I am quite happy with pair Networks . They are dependable, have fast backbone connection, very reasonably priced (and like to emphasize they have never raised their prices). They are also 100% FreeBSD, even if not the latest version. And they even let me host additional domains from the same account for only a dollar/month/domain. In fact, hosting with them is what got me into FreeBSD to start with. :) Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 16:41:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57C137B7A7 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r8.bfm.org [216.127.220.104]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:42:39 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329184151.008a8ad0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:41:51 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and In-Reply-To: <38E2943F.1DEE27F8@tutopia.com> References: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:39 29-03-2000 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Guns are more dangerous. In traditional Martial Arts there are no >techniques against guns. Sure there are! I once participated in a martial arts tournament which ended with a demonstration of the proper and cool way to handle an attacker with a gun. The demonstration featured a 7th or 8th degree black belt in aikido, and emulated a street situation. The aikido master was "walking on the street" when a thug pointed a gun at him and said: "Give me your wallet right now." The aikido master indeed remained completely cool. He reached into his pocket, pulled out his wallet, and gave it to the thug. End of demonstration. Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 16:44:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F6A37B554 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:44:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA89772; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:43:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:43:29 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Dan Piponi , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD, The Matrix, Academy Awards In-Reply-To: <20000329210614.E237@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Now that FreeBSD is associated with an Academy Award winner, and Kirk > is so disapproving of the name Chuck (IMHO Beastie has connotations > that those who believe he is a *demon* may see as confirmation), maybe > we should re-name the little fellow Oscar. I think that's rather the point of the name, actually. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 16:47:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988BE37BA74 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14554; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:47:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAZlaaAC; Wed Mar 29 17:47:09 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA19011; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:47:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003300047.RAA19011@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] To: cjclark@home.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:47:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), ragnar@sysabend.org (Jamie Bowden), mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Mark Ovens), noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000328231558.C14473@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> from "Crist J. Clark" at Mar 28, 2000 11:15:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > We should be prepared to do it again, if we have to, and again, > > and to keep doing it until there are no more tyrants. > > How do we know the guy leading the crowds of gun owners is not the > tyrant? Are they wearing uniforms? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 18: 1:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8871F37BC07 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12925; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:00:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAScaybz; Wed Mar 29 18:59:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22147; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:00:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003300200.TAA22147@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:00:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), crh@outpost.co.nz (Craig Harding), adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Mar 29, 2000 01:36:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Perhaps this is because America provides most of the sensational > > television. > > > > The rest of the world has a significantly higher rate of > > terrorism; I'm sure many terrorist countries are only too happy > > when their victim neighbors disarm their populace. > > You're saying it would be better somehow if the victims were > armed? Yes. There would be a balance of power, and any terrorist action would be a preterbation of the status quo. Balances of power are feedback systems for maintaining the status quo. > In places with already heavy terrorist problems, the terrorists > may use machine guns. There is already a law that you need a Federal Firearms License in order to obtain a machine gun in the U.S.. The law is in fact unconstitutional, but it exists, and it is enforced by those who have more machine guns and tanks. Nevertheless, this does not prevent people from illegally obtaining machine guns from across the U.S. borders. If the borders did not leak like a sieve, there would be no percieved "drug war" or "illegal immigration" problems. > For instance, Kashmir. But that's a more > complicated problem than just terrorism. When they strike in a > relatively peaceful area, with the intent of drawing attention to > themselves, they use bombs. In America, too. The biggest bomb incident in the U.S., in terms of lost life, if one does not count fallout vistims from nuclear tests conducted before fallout was considered dangerous, was Oklahoma. It does not hold a candle to most mass death around the world, which is a result of what would be called an active war, if outside nations were willing to officially recognize the other side. > (You can't walk around in the middle of a big city with a machine > gun, You can. Drug dealers and large scale do it all the time. If the penalty society extracts for a behaviour is high enough, it will drive up the prices to the point that the risk is worth the reward, and the people after the reward will arm themselves to a degree commensurate with the risk. If drugs had a street value of 1000% of their current value, there would be significantly less drug trafficing. > Moreover, they either escape well before the blast, Soldiers. > or are suicide bombers. Fanatics. > Try using a gun against that. You can't use a gun against fanatacism, unless you are fighting a single fanatic. Even then, you can't use it until after you identify the fanatic, which you can't until after the fact (which is what makes them a fanatic, rather than "the stange guy who was always threatening people, so they locked him up"). > Anyway, that has little to do with regular violent crime. I lived > in Delhi, which had a terrorist problem in the 1980s, as in bombs > would randomly go off in buses. Delhi's not regarded as totally > safe even crime-wise, but I've never been mugged or robbed at > gunpoint/knifepoint there, and don't personally know anyone who > has. They probably were afraid to mug you because you might be a terrorist, and kill them. > Yes, crime does happen, killings too, but it's not like you > walk into any "unsafe" area and you're immediately asking for it. > In other cities in India one can walk around safely at all hours > of night. I've heard that that's impossible in most places in the > US; I've never been to the US myself, and most people past their > twenties tell me they've been mugged at least a few times. "Thank you, war on drugs!"... it's a function of the force with which the people in the areas would be prevented from doing what they are doing by the authorities. It's not just drugs, but drugs are a large part of it. Another part of it is the differential penalties for juvenile offenders. Does Dehli have differential penalties for murder by a 16 year old vs. murder by an 18 year old? > I'm not saying that the solution is to disarm the population in > the US: I know that won't work. But there is a problem of how to > deal with increasing violence, in America and elsewhere, and I > don't think arming ordinary people is the solution. I absolutely > don't understand the moral / "democratic rights" / "our founding > fathers wanted it" arguments in favour of guns at all. That's easy. Remove the economic incentive to violence. > The one statement on this thread which I fully agree with is the > idea that all gunholders should have compulsory training and pass > thorough tests before being given a licence. But I'm still > unconvinced that anyone willing to go through such training > should be given a gun. I would not mind compulsory training. It's no more onerous than, say, jury duty. I object to the license, because you could send soldiers, un announced, to one residence at a time to collect the guns, using the license database, and not face coordinated resistance. Then you could be tyrannical all you want, and no one could do anything about it. > > Similarly, the U.S. has not really had mass violence incidents > > resulting in large scale death, which seem to be common in the > > rest of the world. The only real exceptions to this are the > > Civil War, the Revolutionary war, and government actions like > > those in Waco. > > If Bin Laden and his group were in Canada, rather than halfway > around the world, you would not be able to say that. You're right. I'd have to include the tactical nuke we dropped on Canada. > Even now terrorists only go to America in numbers of dozens at > most, not thousands. I'd like to know the British opinion > about the IRA problem, especially in the 70s and 80s, and > whether it would have helped if ordinary people had been given > guns. It seems to me it's gotten worse, now that ordinary people have had their guns confiscated. It doesn't seem to stop the people who you don't want to have guns from obtaining them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 18: 5: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34C1A37BA09; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA02407; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:03:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7NaqJe; Wed Mar 29 19:03:34 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22358; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:04:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003300204.TAA22358@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] To: jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:04:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000329133154.286EF37B7AC@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Mar 29, 2000 05:31:54 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On the other hand, if Janet Reno drives up to my door in an > > M-1 Abrhams Main Battle Tank, I would feel a tad justified in > > owning an "assault weapon" ("a threatening weapon"). > > Terry, now what would you do with that bullet firing assult > weapon against Janet Reno in a M-1 Abrhams Main Battle Tank? A very > significant proportion of infantry use their rifle (assault or > otherwise) infrequently. One of the main jobs of sargents in several > armies is to get other their soldiers to fire their rifles. The > feeling of impotence when holding a rifle while confronting an armored > emeny is very nearly overwhelming. Human wave assault. Just like trench warfare in World War I. If you are willing to expend enough of your people on a goal, it can be accomplished. Worse case scenario, 5 guys out of 500 get to the tank, and weld her into the damn thing, and she eventually starves to death... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 18:18:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D29237B6BB for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:18:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05777; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:17:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAABFaOpl; Wed Mar 29 19:17:45 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22859; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:18:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003300218.TAA22859@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] To: lynch@cityisp.net (Chris Lynch) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:18:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd@planet.nl (Marc Veldman), tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Chris Lynch" at Mar 29, 2000 04:11:25 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It doesn't matter to me. If I have a gun and some asshole walks into > MAcdonalds and starts shooting, I'm shooting back. > BUT, if we don't have guns, he has to walk in with a Slingshot, which > means we will just kick his ass. Unless he illegally obtains a gun... naw, a criminal would never do anything illegal... > Plus, will future releases of FreeBSD be shipped WITH Guns or Without?? ITAR restrictions prohibit this, since like cryptography, guns are munitions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19: 4:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1796737B5EB for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:04:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.212]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS700GFOSHEC1@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:03:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01012; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:03:47 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:03:47 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and In-reply-to: <200003291936.MAA23741@usr05.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: cjclark@home.com, Brad Knowles , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >Returning to the kick, it is the momentum imparted to the gun >relative to the inertia of the hand holding it that results in >the trigger being pulled and causing an unintended-by-the-wielder >gun discharge. For this to occur, the gun has to be significantly >displaced, generally so much so that it can not possibly be pointed >at the originally threatened person when it discharges. In this case, the discharge is a "fortune of war" rather than an accident -- but you're absolutely right -- in that situation, the most likely reason for the discharge would be your opponent's muscle reaction to the kick. But by the time the reaction forces the trigger pull, your opponents grip is dislodged -- which means the muzzle will rise 2 to 6 inches before the bullet leaves the muzzle. >The knife, if firmly held, cuts the hell out of your foot, which >has the aditional negative effect of making it harder to run >away, even if you succeed in kicking it out of the assailents >hands. I think you're making a convincing argument that we should ban knives instead of guns:) >> The few times I have been in that situation, here in the States, it >> was a knife they pulled. I would have preferred they pulled a gun; they >> would have been easier to disarm with less risk. But, they don't show >> that in the movies, either. > >Agreed. > >It's also a fact that most handgun echanges take place at close >range, without anyone getting hit for an insanely large number >of rounds fired. That's isn't very exciting to watch in a >theater, either, since you are really waiting for Mel Gibson >to shoot the thugs in a subplot, and then get back onto the >main story line... Wouldn't it be nice if real life was more like the movies? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19: 4:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D6337BAD6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:04:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.212]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS700GFOSHEC1@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:03:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00989; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:43:38 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:43:38 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: [snip] >1776: > British Army: muskets and cannon. > Revolutionaries: muskets. You should probably add to that, the mortars, frigates and lancers for the British of that time. > not too inequal > >1999: > British Army: tanks, arty, rifles > Revolutionaries: rifles. You should also add the squad machine guns, mortars, C4, Apaches and Claymores for todays British. > ouch. > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles >is a real bear. Most of the tactical weapons are useless in a guerrilla action, which is why there will always be men in the mud. With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. Logical assumptions get you killed in a fight, no matter which side you're on. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19: 4:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C2D37B5B9 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.212]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS700GFOSHEC1@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:03:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01041; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:38:43 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:38:43 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <20000328231558.C14473@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Jamie Bowden , Mark Ovens , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Crist J. Clark wrote: >How do we know the guy leading the crowds of gun owners is not the >tyrant? Tyrants don't last long in a combat unit. Ever heard of fragging? >Well, in the spirit of the 1770's, I'll let you do the >fighting. Roughly a third of the people back then were >pro-Independence, another third were Loyalists, and another third >really didn't care less. Lucky for the Independence crowd, the French >showed up and the British had bigger things to worry about at the >time. > >I'd probably be in that last, "careless" crowd. I wouldn't need a gun, >but the fact everybody else will be armed to the teeth... *sigh* You >want me to need one, huh? I guess maybe I do. French probably won't >come bail my ass out this time 'round. Before you are so quick to concede peace, perhaps you should review the outcome for the Vichy French after WWII? Or perhaps, the few Dutch who adopted the same attitude during the 40's. The real issue with this debate, as it is with the debate over who will do what with the FreeBSD trade mark is much the same. Everyone wants freedom, but some seem to want freedom only when others can't disagree and act otherwise. The rebuttal is if you restrict someone else's freedom, you most surely restrict your own. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19:10:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A05037B51E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CBB1D131; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:10:52 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38E2C5BC.A1CED34E@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:10:52 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > > > > This nation (the United States) was born from armed citizens > > with as good or better weapons than their oppressors rising > > up against tyrrany. This was less than 225 years ago, which > > is only about three times the current adult life expectances. > > > > 1776: > British Army: muskets and cannon. > Revolutionaries: muskets. > > not too inequal > > 1999: > British Army: tanks, arty, rifles > Revolutionaries: rifles. > > ouch. > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > is a real bear. One of the things people often forget when considering insurrections of the people are that the armed forces of the govt are also the people. You won't get the army killing friends and relatives, or fellow countrymen, just because the govt says so. During civil war situations the standing army usually has a lot of deserters often led by middle ranking officers who just up and switch sides taking the whole squadron or whatever with them, weapons and all. So should the situation arise I suspect the revolutionaries will have more than rifles. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19:16:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9A237B91B for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:16:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (lobster.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.241]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id C71BB1D131; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:16:16 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38E2C700.D0CCB01C@originative.co.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:16:16 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , Brad Knowles , andyt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East References: <4.2.2.20000328191924.0410bd30@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 06:26 PM 3/28/2000 , Jay Nelson wrote: > > >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > >[snip] > > > > > If you're serious about a BSDCon on the East Coast, I think that > > >the Baltimore/DC area has more going for it than any other I can > > >think of, and has fewer drawbacks. > > > >Plus, the greatest crab-cakes on earth. > > Actually, the best crab-anything on earth. There's something about > those blue-green Chesapeake Bay crabs.... To think that a decade > ago they almost went extinct! I don't know whether the 70s UK series the Goodies made it to the US but I always remember an episode where they tried to discover why the Dodo became extinct. I think some how or another, they had discovered the single remaining Dodo and during the course of their investigations as to why the species became extinct they blow it up. The closing punchline as they're sitting around eating this huge Dodo drumstick is that they became extinct because they taste so good. :-) Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19:19:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smaug.dragon.net.au (smaug.dragon.net.au [203.56.188.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DAD537B6C6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:19:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wintermute@netset.net.au) Received: (qmail 13473 invoked by uid 10); 30 Mar 2000 03:19:38 -0000 Received: from UNKNOWN(203.56.191.100), claiming to be "netset.net.au" via SMTP by smaug.dragon.net.au, id smtpda13448; Thu Mar 30 13:19:29 2000 Message-ID: <38E2D60A.79F3F405@netset.net.au> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:20:26 +1000 From: Sean Hall Reply-To: schall@iname.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neill Robins Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hosting recommendations References: <14630.000329@nc.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org www.pair.com Neill Robins wrote: > > Hello, > > Short of going throw the whole gallery of FreeBSD users, can anyone > recommend a good company to host a new site that is dependable, fast > connection to a backbone, and not too expensive? > > I like On-Line Marketing (www.olm.net), and they have a customized > version of RedHat, but I was trying to stick with FreeBSD. > > Thanks, > Neill > freebsd@nc.rr.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19:41:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF3037BACB for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [216.127.220.137]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:42:28 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000329214129.00866210@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:41:29 -0600 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <38E2C5BC.A1CED34E@originative.co.uk> References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:10 30-03-2000 +0100, Paul Richards wrote: >One of the things people often forget when considering insurrections of >the people are that the armed forces of the govt are also the people. >You won't get the army killing friends and relatives, or fellow >countrymen, just because the govt says so. Just as a side note: I grew up in Czechoslovakia, a country that no longer exists because it split into two countries, the Czech Republic and Slovakia. The government of Czechoslovakia was aware of the point you made, so they sent most Czechs to military service in Slovakia, and most Slovaks to what is now the Czech Republic. There used to be tension between Czechs and Slovaks, even hatred, especially before 1968. The government was hoping they could use Slovak soldiers to control Czech civilians, and Czech soldiers to control Slovak civilians. I believe it had the opposite effect actually. Young men of each nation got to know the people of the other nation, found many friends, and the tensions were lessened. They eventually decided to split into two countries, and did it quite peacefully. Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 29 19:49:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E433E37BA74 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:49:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 7173 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2000 03:49:27 -0000 Received: from du69.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.69) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 2000 03:49:27 -0000 Message-ID: <38E2CE94.915116A6@mail.ptd.net> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:48:36 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. They didn't clean our clocks. After Tet '68 they were done as an effective fighting force. What they and their friends and allies did do was make the cost to us of winning higher than we were willing to pay. The results on the ground may be the same as if we had had our clocks cleaned, but the lessons learned are very different. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 0:12:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93BFC37B56B; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:12:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23375; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:53:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA50326; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:11:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:11:52 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: jack Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let 3.x die ASAP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Is "Didier" French for "Dennis"? > > > > ROTFL. Thanks Mike. That's been the only laugh of the day so far! > > Yeah, but he owes me a keyboard. This one has a mouthful of > Coca-Cola all over it. :) On a Sun-related mailing list, several drinks were invariably tossed toward the monitor/keyboard, including beer, Mt. Dew, Coke, etc. :-)) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 0:22:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pointer.raytheon.co.uk (pointer.raytheon.co.uk [193.115.14.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67F3437B65C for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk) Received: from retriever.raytheon.co.uk (unverified) by pointer.raytheon.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:28:22 +0100 Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was something unrelated :)] To: Chris Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Chris.Smith@raytheon.co.uk Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:22:28 +0100 Message-Id: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on RSLHUB/SVR/RAYTHEONUK(Release 5.0.2c (Intl)|2 February 2000) at 03/30/2000 09:21:14 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, ** > > > If you were American, then here's a little thought for you:- ** > > > During the Gulf war, you killed more allies than you did the enemy. ** > > ** ** Yeah, we probably killed more of our own troops than Iraq's fearsome army ** did. I wonder how many of them we (Americans) killed? Was it actually near ** the hundred thousand, we've been told? I know we annialated an entire ** interstate of stolen cars filled with iraqi troops( bad I ** Yeah, we probably killed more of our own troops than Iraq's fearsome army ** did. I wonder how many of them we (Americans) killed? Was it actually near ** the hundred thousand, we've been told? I know we annialated an entire ** interstate of stolen cars filled with iraqi troops( bad Idea, if you were ** an Iraqi fleeing kuwait.) in the end, since We end up being the watchdog ** for everyone (You see it's either, You beg us for help, or you hate us for ** not helping...either way, most of us don't really care anymore as far as ** which country thinks we're evil. We've watched enough bbc to grow callous ** to whether or not terrorist hate us for being american. that's why the ** government is trigger happy, ala the nigerian plant that was destroyed ** a while back. We're also paranoid when it comes to arab terrorist( ** which SUCKS if you are an Arab-American trying just to survive here), but, ** then again who cares, most Americans Fear EAch Other, not some Foreign ** power...how the hell is going to Invade this place, short from nukes We ** are safer from invasion. In the US, people blow each other away for ** whatever reason, such as, I get picked on, so I'm going to go kill the ** a few people. After the news is over Entertainment Tonight comes ** on...DAMN, look at what SHe's Wearing!!!...so much for making an ** impression. We have more problems with God-fearing gun toting psychopaths ** here than anyone else. Ask most people who Bin-Laden is they don't know. ** Ask them what Jennifer Lopez was wearing 90% can tell you. We have more ** problems with people here wanting to blow it up or shoot up the place. ** ** ** Give all Americans Guns. What the hell. The Big Ol Gun argument should ** have a middle ground...Either take them ALL away , or give everyone a Gun. ** It doesn't matter to me. If I have a gun and some asshole walks into ** MAcdonalds and starts shooting, I'm shooting back. ** BUT, if we don't have guns, he has to walk in with a Slingshot, which ** means we will just kick his ass. ** ** Plus, will future releases of FreeBSD be shipped WITH Guns or Without?? ** Exactly :) Chris. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 0:36:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 24ED437B656 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:36:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4875 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2000 08:35:45 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 30 Mar 2000 08:35:45 -0000 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:05:45 +0530 (IST) From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Craig Harding , "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and In-Reply-To: <200003300200.TAA22147@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Fanatics. > > > Try using a gun against that. > > You can't use a gun against fanatacism, unless you are fighting > a single fanatic. Even then, you can't use it until after you > identify the fanatic, which you can't until after the fact (which > is what makes them a fanatic, rather than "the stange guy who was > always threatening people, so they locked him up"). Quite right. But most terrorists are fanatics. > > would randomly go off in buses. Delhi's not regarded as totally > > safe even crime-wise, but I've never been mugged or robbed at > > gunpoint/knifepoint there, and don't personally know anyone who > > has. > > They probably were afraid to mug you because you might be a > terrorist, and kill them. I don't think you're serious. If you are, it just proves my point about the American gun culture. Violent crime is not so common here, and especially not on the streets -- though after around 9 pm or 10 pm (depending on which city) women may not want to travel alone. My impression on a couple of visits to Europe was that the streets are mostly safe there too. > Another part of it is the differential penalties for juvenile > offenders. Does Dehli have differential penalties for murder > by a 16 year old vs. murder by an 18 year old? I'm not sure, but probably. In particular I doubt there's a death sentence for minors. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 1:11:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chalfont.mail.easynet.net (chalfont.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33EB37B711 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 01:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from fink (tnt-20-134.easynet.co.uk [212.134.226.134]) by chalfont.mail.easynet.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EA46CF84E3; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:11:26 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <001d01bf9a27$80532d40$1c021740@cian.net> Reply-To: From: To: "Jay Nelson" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:08:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > [snip] > > >1776: > > British Army: muskets and cannon. > > Revolutionaries: muskets. > > You should probably add to that, the mortars, frigates and lancers for > the British of that time. You should perhaps _more_ importantly note the age of the British fleet of that time, not it's size. The Revolutionary fleet was brand-spanking-new. The equivalent of sending a W.W.I battleship up against the New Jersey ....... it was a damn brave show by the British navy to fight, knowing as they did so, that they confronted a better armed, better motivated and (sadly for them) frequently better led naval enemy. This of course not to detract from the sound arse-whooping the Brits received on more than a couple of occasions. Mind you, the white house was torched in all this somewhere :) ... bet that's not happened for a while. CR > > > not too inequal > > > >1999: > > British Army: tanks, arty, rifles > > Revolutionaries: rifles. > > You should also add the squad machine guns, mortars, C4, Apaches and > Claymores for todays British. > > > ouch. > > > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > >is a real bear. > > Most of the tactical weapons are useless in a guerrilla action, which > is why there will always be men in the mud. > > With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. > Logical assumptions get you killed in a fight, no matter which side > you're on. > > -- Jay > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 5: 5:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id E9F6037B732; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:05:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tms2@mail.ptd.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <38E210E9.3FE7F5E8@mail.ptd.net> (tms2@mail.ptd.net) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000330130552.E9F6037B732@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:05:52 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > trying to fight against a combined arms unit with only rifles > > is a real bear. > > > > An excellent argument for allowing the populace to have more powerful > weapons. > indeed, if one is going to argue the populace needs guns to fight against tyranny, the populace needs to be effectively armed. i dont know what portion of the populace is willing to countance arming the populace effectively. its all fine and good until someone in ones neighborhood acquires anti-personnel mines or more lethal weapons jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 5:49:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 4659037B732; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:49:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, tlambert@primenet.com, crh@outpost.co.nz, adam@whizkidtech.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003300200.TAA22147@usr01.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:00:50 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and Message-Id: <20000330134914.4659037B732@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:49:14 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Moreover, they either escape well before the blast, > > Soldiers. Terry, after spending effort to educate us on grammer, please dont confuse soldiers and terrorists. Govts use soldiers to fight other armed forces resulting in some civilian casaulties. soldiers do not aim to purposefully cause civilian casaulties. civilians are really just in the way. Terrorists are used by NGO's and Govts to kill civilians. civilian casaulties are the purpose of terrorist activities. teh more civilian dead the better. Terrorists shun Govt soldiers. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 5:51:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id CC4BF37B550; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:51:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003300204.TAA22358@usr01.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Thu, 30 Mar 2000 02:04:27 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000330135156.CC4BF37B550@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:51:56 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Human wave assault. Just like trench warfare in World War I. If > you are willing to expend enough of your people on a goal, it can > be accomplished. > > Worse case scenario, 5 guys out of 500 get to the tank, and weld > her into the damn thing, and she eventually starves to death... during the 3rd battle of the somme in ww1, britian lost 60,000 soldiers in about a weeks fighting. they gained a few miles of ground. you lead the way. i'll watch. i'll even cheer you on if you think it will help. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 5:59:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 5E0C437B56E; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:59:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: noslenj@swbell.net Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Jay Nelson on Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:43:38 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-Id: <20000330135918.5E0C437B56E@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:59:18 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Most of the tactical weapons are useless in a guerrilla action, which > is why there will always be men in the mud. > a number of times the su army was successful in retaingin contact with the vc, at those times larger weapons could be added to the fray with devastating results for the vc. guerillas have to hig and get out before heave firepower can be trained on them. > With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. > Logical assumptions get you killed in a fight, no matter which side > you're on. Victor Charlie was willing to die until the US got tired. as long as they were willing to die, they could continue to fight. the US Army's role in vietnam was ambiguous....nation building, providing a shield while arvn was strenghtened.... take a look at "war in the shadows". jmb > > -- Jay > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 10:27:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D4D37B85B; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e2UIQZ315974; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:26:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:26:35 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Brett Glass Cc: bitsurfer , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDCon East In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org heh how about The Castle in Boston? thats where Geek Pride is this weekend, and I'll see what I can do about maybe convincing the powers that be to help sponsor it (I'm not allowed to name the powers that be right now for fear of going down in flames and being kicked out of the I love BSD Group) -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > McCormick Place is actually too BIG for such an event. BSD is popular, > but not THAT popular -- at least not yet. > > And the unions do terrorize exhibitors at McCormick Place. I heard > some stories at last year's spring COMDEX.... > > --Brett > > At 03:14 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > > >McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next > >month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport > >(somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs > >field) service a more private class of fliers. > > > >As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of > >an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 10:27:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 001D637BE87; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:27:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29735; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:08:45 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA55955; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:27:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:27:19 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, noslenj@swbell.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <20000330135156.CC4BF37B550@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > during the 3rd battle of the somme in ww1, britian lost > 60,000 soldiers in about a weeks fighting. they gained a few miles of > ground. you lead the way. i'll watch. i'll even cheer you on if you > think it will help. An interesting comment from one engaged in the War On Spam. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 12: 9: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9EB37BD4C; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:09:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14151; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:08:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000330130651.045d3e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:08:46 -0700 To: Pat Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSDCon East Cc: bitsurfer , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.2.20000327165343.03fdc430@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IIRC, The Castle isn't a hotel itself but is a large meeting hall (formerly an armory) near several upscale hotels in downtown Boston. Hotel rooms for this one would be expensive. But if Andover could help it would be great.... --Brett At 11:26 AM 3/30/2000 , Pat Lynch wrote: >heh how about The Castle in Boston? thats where Geek Pride is this >weekend, and I'll see what I can do about maybe convincing the powers that >be to help sponsor it (I'm not allowed to name the powers that be right >now for fear of going down in flames and being kicked out of the I love >BSD Group) > >-Pat > >__ > >Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > lynch@bsdunix.net > lynch@unix.sh > lynch@blowfi.sh >Systems Administrator Rush Networking > >On Mon, 27 Mar 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > > > McCormick Place is actually too BIG for such an event. BSD is popular, > > but not THAT popular -- at least not yet. > > > > And the unions do terrorize exhibitors at McCormick Place. I heard > > some stories at last year's spring COMDEX.... > > > > --Brett > > > > At 03:14 PM 3/27/2000 , bitsurfer wrote: > > > > >McCormick Place (on the lakefront) Same place as the upcoming Comdex next > > >month... Ohare airport (cab access aswell as public rail) Midway airport > > >(somewhat smaller) again, public transportation and then there is Meigs > > >field) service a more private class of fliers. > > > > > >As far as the unios go, I don't know about (I suspect that may be more of > > >an urban leagend then fact). Just a thought. > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 15:56:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E84337B5FA; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 15:55:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA11433; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:37:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:37:05 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, crh@outpost.co.nz, adam@whizkidtech.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and Message-ID: <20000330233705.A11221@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200003300200.TAA22147@usr01.primenet.com> <20000330134914.4659037B732@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20000330134914.4659037B732@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:49:14AM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I swore I wouldn't get in to this debate. On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:49:14AM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Terrorists are used by NGO's Not all NGOs. N nik@{freebsd.org,slashdot.org,NGO.ORG.UK}... -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 16:58:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87F6937BEB2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:58:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 18978 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2000 00:58:54 -0000 Received: from du211017.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.17) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2000 00:58:54 -0000 Message-ID: <38E3F81B.41BB7D3D@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:58:03 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and References: <20000330134914.4659037B732@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > Govts use soldiers to fight other armed forces resulting in > some civilian casaulties. soldiers do not aim to purposefully cause > civilian casaulties. civilians are really just in the way. > > Terrorists are used by NGO's and Govts to kill civilians. > civilian casaulties are the purpose of terrorist activities. teh more > civilian dead the better. Terrorists shun Govt soldiers. Remember the Pullman strike? The Bonus Army? Kent State? Our government has shown that it is quite willing to use the army against its own citizens. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 17: 3: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE2237C28E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.6]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS9007L8HKM09@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:02:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00770; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:01:44 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:01:44 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <38E2CE94.915116A6@mail.ptd.net> To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Jay Nelson wrote: >> >> With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. > >They didn't clean our clocks. After Tet '68 they were done as an >effective fighting force. What they and their friends and allies did do >was make the cost to us of winning higher than we were willing to pay. >The results on the ground may be the same as if we had had our clocks >cleaned, but the lessons learned are very different. I suspect you're right. Fleeing the top of the embassy leaving many behind indicates a high cost. I suspect the differences don't mean much to Charlie. From '68 to 75, their ineffectiveness accomplished the goal. Do you see any differences in today's US govt than then? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 17: 3: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA6A37C26B for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:02:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.6]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS9007L8HKM09@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:02:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00754; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:52:39 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:52:39 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and In-reply-to: <38E2943F.1DEE27F8@tutopia.com> To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Terry Lambert wrote: >> >... >> >> There are two rules for an unarmed martial artist, when someone comes >> at them with a knife, and they can't avoid the situation: >> > > 0) Run as fast as you can. > >> 1) Expect to be cut. >> 2) Expect to kill the other person. >> >I had heard number 1 but not number 2. #2 is the only thing that allows a rational decision on #0 and #1. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 17: 3:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD3737C2B0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([209.184.1.6]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FS9007L8HKM09@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:02:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00740; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:41:56 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:41:56 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <001d01bf9a27$80532d40$1c021740@cian.net> To: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 c.raven@ukonline.co.uk wrote: >> On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> >1776: >> > British Army: muskets and cannon. >> > Revolutionaries: muskets. >> >> You should probably add to that, the mortars, frigates and lancers for >> the British of that time. > > >You should perhaps _more_ importantly note the age of the British fleet of >that time, not it's size. > >The Revolutionary fleet was brand-spanking-new. The equivalent of sending a >W.W.I battleship up against the New Jersey ....... it was a damn brave show >by the British navy to fight, knowing as they did so, that they confronted >a better armed, better motivated and (sadly for them) frequently better led >naval enemy. Good point. Much like our current fleet of Apaches and Blackhawks. >This of course not to detract from the sound arse-whooping the Brits >received on more than a couple of occasions. Mind you, the white house was >torched in all this somewhere :) ... bet that's not happened for a while. Sadly, no -- and it's beginning to look like it's needed again:) -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 17:30:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.wallnet.com (server1.wallnet.com [208.225.162.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FD2137C271; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cweimann@server1.wallnet.com) Received: (from cweimann@localhost) by server1.wallnet.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA24119; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:30:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20000330203039.D20275@wallnet.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:30:39 -0500 From: "Christopher S. Weimann" To: Jay Nelson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, cjclark@home.com, ragnar@sysabend.org, mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Jay Nelson on Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 06:43:38PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 29, 2000 at 06:43:38PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > [snip] > > >1776: > > British Army: muskets and cannon. > > Revolutionaries: muskets. > > You should probably add to that, the mortars, frigates and lancers for > the British of that time. > He should also add rifles to the Revolutionaries. They probobly had some of the best marksmen in the world since they grew up using guns of some sort or another (one of the advantages of an armed society.) These early rifles had much better range and accuracy than the muskets carried by the British and we actually had an advantage in that respect. They used the improved accuracy and range to target British officers before they were in muskerange which made the rifle a pretty effective terror weapon. It was however much slower to load which made the rifleman very vulnerable so they were kept behind the normal troops. If you look at the history of the gun you will see that many of the important innovations (like rifling) were made for hunting. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Christopher Weimann SysAdmin 400 Higgins Ave Wall Internet LLC. Brielle NJ, 08730 Serving almost all of New Jersey 732-223-1777 ------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 18:14:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7931037B9C6 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 11155 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2000 02:14:04 -0000 Received: from du211140.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.140) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2000 02:14:04 -0000 Message-ID: <38E409B8.521D5015@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:13:12 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people"and"dangers to BSD"] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >Jay Nelson wrote: > >> > >> With greater odds, Victor Charlie cleaned our collective clock. > > > >They didn't clean our clocks. After Tet '68 they were done as an > >effective fighting force. What they and their friends and allies did do > >was make the cost to us of winning higher than we were willing to pay. > >The results on the ground may be the same as if we had had our clocks > >cleaned, but the lessons learned are very different. > > I suspect you're right. Fleeing the top of the embassy leaving many > behind indicates a high cost. I suspect the differences don't mean > much to Charlie. From '68 to 75, their ineffectiveness accomplished > the goal. Do you see any differences in today's US govt than then? After Tet, the NVA took over the war. I believe they were not displeased that the VC took such a beating. From '72 it was mostly a conventional war. An Loc and Quang Tri were conventional battles. Saigon fell to a tank column. As I said, I agree that as far as results go, it does not matter whether we lost or quit, but that difference does matter when you try to draw lessons from the war. Neither the VC nor the NVA beat us on the battlefield. If we had wanted to, we could have stayed indefinitely. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 18:34:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2303A37B8EB; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA16144; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:34:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAdyaWiF; Thu Mar 30 19:34:01 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06930; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 19:33:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200003310233.TAA06930@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and To: jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:33:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, crh@outpost.co.nz, adam@whizkidtech.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000330134914.4659037B732@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Mar 30, 2000 05:49:14 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Moreover, they either escape well before the blast, > > > > Soldiers. > > Terry, > after spending effort to educate us on grammer, please dont > confuse soldiers and terrorists. > > Govts use soldiers to fight other armed forces resulting in > some civilian casaulties. soldiers do not aim to purposefully cause > civilian casaulties. civilians are really just in the way. > > Terrorists are used by NGO's and Govts to kill civilians. > civilian casaulties are the purpose of terrorist activities. teh more > civilian dead the better. Terrorists shun Govt soldiers. No offense intended towards people who serve in the military. My point was that if they were escaping before the blast, instead of suicide bombing, they we less committed to their ideals than a fanatic (willing to die in a skirmish, even if it might cost your side the war to be without people). The problem with NGO vs. government as your classification boundary is that one man's NGO is another man's government in exile. I agree that the primary distinction should be civilian vs. military targets, but there again, the line is really blurry; are the American people civilians, or are they the government? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 20:24: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABAD37C34D; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from barricuda.bsd.nws.net (kris.huntsvilleal.com [207.13.224.46]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05982; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:05:06 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by barricuda.bsd.nws.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA63632; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:23:47 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:23:43 -0600 (CST) From: Kris Kirby To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: tms2@mail.ptd.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] In-Reply-To: <20000330130552.E9F6037B732@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > indeed, if one is going to argue the populace needs guns to > fight against tyranny, the populace needs to be effectively armed. i > dont know what portion of the populace is willing to countance arming > the populace effectively. its all fine and good until someone in ones > neighborhood acquires anti-personnel mines or more lethal weapons Ah. Natural selection. (Dope kills himself, not others.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "God gave them the ability to reproduce... ... Science gave us the hope they won't." -KBK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 20:32: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A095E37B744 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 18938 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2000 04:32:05 -0000 Received: from du211140.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.211.140) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2000 04:32:05 -0000 Message-ID: <38E42A11.9D0C27C5@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:31:13 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> <20000330203039.D20275@wallnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Christopher S. Weimann" wrote: > > He should also add rifles to the Revolutionaries. They probobly had > some of the best marksmen in the world since they grew up using guns > of some sort or another (one of the advantages of an armed society.) > These early rifles had much better range and accuracy than the muskets > carried by the British and we actually had an advantage in that respect. > They used the improved accuracy and range to target British officers > before they were in muskerange which made the rifle a pretty effective > terror weapon. It was however much slower to load which made the > rifleman very vulnerable so they were kept behind the normal troops. > Riflemen would more usually be in front as skirmishers, until the opposing force got too close, at which time the skirmishers retired. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 30 23:57:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF6F37C2F7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:57:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r6.bfm.org [216.127.220.102]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:58:08 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000331015708.00864480@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:57:08 -0600 To: "Christopher S. Weimann" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000330203039.D20275@wallnet.com> References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:30 30-03-2000 -0500, Christopher S. Weimann wrote: >They used the improved accuracy and range to target British officers >before they were in muskerange which made the rifle a pretty effective >terror weapon. It was however much slower to load which made the >rifleman very vulnerable so they were kept behind the normal troops. I believe, if my information is correct, their greatest advantage was tactical. The British army used the traditional war tactic of having soldiers in a single file and expected their opponents to do the same. But the revolutionaries have learned from the Indians to move around freely rather than in a rigid formation. That was much more flexible. Secondly, the British wore red coats which made them visible from a long distance. The revolutionaries did not wear fancy uniforms, just plain dark civilians clothes which made them less visible and harder to aim at. Finally. let's not forget the psychological advantage. The revolutionaries were figthing for their own freedom and independence, the British were fighting because their officers told them to fight. Adam ----------------------------------------------------------- "I think, therefore I am." - Seventeenth Century Philosophy "I publish what I think, therefore I have." - Twenty-First Century Action Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 3:16: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E636337BBD3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 11404 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2000 11:16:10 -0000 Received: from du11.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.11) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2000 11:16:10 -0000 Message-ID: <38E488C7.17E65441@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:15:19 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] References: <20000329133624.5372F37B55A@hub.freebsd.org> <3.0.6.32.20000331015708.00864480@mail85.pair.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > I believe, if my information is correct, their greatest advantage was > tactical. The British army used the traditional war tactic of having > soldiers in a single file and expected their opponents to do the same. > > But the revolutionaries have learned from the Indians to move around > freely rather than in a rigid formation. That was much more flexible. > > Secondly, the British wore red coats which made them visible from a > long distance. The revolutionaries did not wear fancy uniforms, just > plain dark civilians clothes which made them less visible and harder > to aim at. I think this view of the war is partly mythical. While partisan warfare, to which your comments apply, did play an important part in the war, the decisive battles, such as Saratoga and Yorktown, were entirely conventional affairs. The Continentals (that is, Washington's army) wore uniforms, and used linear tactics and smoothbore muskets, just as their opponents did. The militia, while capable of harassing supply lines and attacking isolated outposts, could not have faced a regular force in the field. If Washington had not fielded a conventional army, we'd have lost the war and would all be speaking English now. Also remember that the colonists learned irregular warfare fighting alongside the British against the French and Indians. The British learned the same lessons at the same time, and had good light infantry (although the Austrians were considered to have the best light infantry at the time). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 3:25:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2A0537BD71 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 03:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 29533 invoked from network); 31 Mar 2000 11:26:01 -0000 Received: from du11.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.11) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 2000 11:26:01 -0000 Message-ID: <38E48B16.C0C97640@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:25:10 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] References: <001d01bf9a27$80532d40$1c021740@cian.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org c.raven@ukonline.co.uk wrote: > > You should perhaps _more_ importantly note the age of the British > fleet of that time, not it's size. > > The Revolutionary fleet was brand-spanking-new. The equivalent of > sending a W.W.I battleship up against the New Jersey ....... it was a > damn brave show by the British navy to fight, knowing as they did so, > that they confronted a better armed, better motivated and (sadly for > them) frequently better led naval enemy. The American fleet was virtually non-existent. The first batch of ships were converted merchantmen. The second batch of 13 were built as warships, but only 9 ever saw the sea, and several of the remainder were taken almost at once. Technologically there was not much difference between the ships on each side. > This of course not to detract from the sound arse-whooping the Brits > received on more than a couple of occasions. Mind you, the white house > was torched in all this somewhere :) ... bet that's not happened for a > while. That was in 1814, not during the Revolution. The White House wasn't built until 1801 or so. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 5:13:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 236E637B6A3; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in, crh@outpost.co.nz, adam@whizkidtech.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <200003310233.TAA06930@usr09.primenet.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 31 Mar 2000 02:33:55 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: Oh no. The Guns Debate (was Re: On "intelligent people" and Message-Id: <20000331131319.236E637B6A3@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 05:13:19 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > My point was that if they were escaping before the blast, > instead of suicide bombing, they we less committed to their > ideals than a fanatic (willing to die in a skirmish, even if > it might cost your side the war to be without people). the person that succeeds in planting a bomb that is effective and escaping to do so again is much better for the cause than the suicide bomber. after all the suicide bomber is a one time discharge of the weapon. perhaps this is why suicide bomber seem to appear only after other methods are deemed to be too ineffective. > > The problem with NGO vs. government as your classification > boundary is that one man's NGO is another man's government in > exile. lets call anything that calls itself a govt a govt. so, bin laden's organization is not a govt (doesnt claim to be, i believe). the afgans against the soviets were a govt. > > I agree that the primary distinction should be civilian vs. > military targets, but there again, the line is really blurry; > are the American people civilians, or are they the government? no its not. people that work for the govt are govt. people that dont arent. so the bank teller and the market stall owner are not govt (one might argue otherwise if the person is a spy/informant. but one doesnt need to plant a bomb in an open market to get those people.) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 6:19:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A45E37B652 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@tutopia.com) Received: from tutopia.com ([200.41.109.157]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA1084 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 09:18:40 -0500 Message-ID: <38E4279A.7BFBC79C@tutopia.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:20:42 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Nelson wrote: > > On Wed, 29 Mar 2000, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >Terry Lambert wrote: > >> > >... > >> > >> There are two rules for an unarmed martial artist, when someone comes > >> at them with a knife, and they can't avoid the situation: > >> > > > > 0) Run as fast as you can. > > > >> 1) Expect to be cut. > >> 2) Expect to kill the other person. > >> > >I had heard number 1 but not number 2. > > #2 is the only thing that allows a rational decision on #0 and #1. > No. I had an experience with some burglars in a very dangerous city. There was no time to make "rational decisions". I was not alone and we did end up running when I saw a knife, but in the first confusing moments the first idea you have is regaining control and avoiding someone (from your side) getting hurt. To end the story abruptly: I survived :). I chose to kick the guy that had grabbed my friend, the guy drew out the knife but by that time I had already suggested we should better run. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 13:54: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw3a.lmco.com (mailgw3a.lmco.com [192.35.35.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CDA37C052 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.spiegel@lmco.com) Received: from emss01g01.ems.lmco.com ([129.197.181.54]) by mailgw3a.lmco.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08929; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) id <0FSB006013HUSX@lmco.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi523.lmms.lmco.com ([129.197.11.229]) by lmco.com (PMDF V5.2-32 #38886) with ESMTP id <0FSB0050Y3H3CG@lmco.com>; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:53:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from spiegel@localhost) by sgi523.lmms.lmco.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id NAA20741; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:53:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) From: mark.spiegel@lmco.com (Mark Spiegel) Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: ; from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Mar 31, 100 3:16 am To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <200003312153.NAA20741@sgi523.lmms.lmco.com> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : : "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: : > : > I believe, if my information is correct, their greatest advantage was : > tactical. The British army used the traditional war tactic of having : > soldiers in a single file and expected their opponents to do the same. : > : : I think this view of the war is partly mythical. While partisan warfare, : to which your comments apply, did play an important part in the war, the : decisive battles, such as Saratoga and Yorktown, were entirely : conventional affairs. The Continentals (that is, Washington's army) wore : uniforms, and used linear tactics and smoothbore muskets, just as their : opponents did. The militia, while capable of harassing supply lines and : attacking isolated outposts, could not have faced a regular force in the : field. Not true. When the British attempted to split the Colonies in two down the Hudson Valley, it was the locals and their rifles who defeated Bourgoyne's (sp?) Army, as it tried to move from Montreal to British-held NYC. This battle was decisive as it convinced the French king to back the American revolution. He had been reluctant to supply support because he didn't want the embarrassment of having backed a loser. Since the Colonies had negligible, if not non-existent, weapons manufacturing capabilities, getting French help was extremely important. Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 31 17: 2:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C6F37C041 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 17:02:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from acp.swbell.net ([208.190.159.236]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FSB007NEC87WT@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:02:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (noslenj@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acp.swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00590; Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:13:05 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:13:05 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people"and"dangers to BSD"] In-reply-to: <38E409B8.521D5015@mail.ptd.net> To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: [snip] >As I said, I agree that as far as results go, it does not matter whether >we lost or quit, but that difference does matter when you try to draw >lessons from the war. Neither the VC nor the NVA beat us on the >battlefield. If we had wanted to, we could have stayed indefinitely. You are right, of course, and it does raise some important questions. If there were a need for a second revolution, would current government have more, less or equal will to win? Would troops on the ground have more, less or equal enthusiasm for the fight. (Would the revolutionaries have any will.) What would be the rate of defection when the "enemy" is the same as the troops. Did we learn anything from Vietnam upon which we could improve? There would be a lot of wild cards in an action like this. It would be interesting to compare the contingency plans in place at the pentagon and justice. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 1 0: 5:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (chicago.mooseriver.com [209.133.53.176]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCDE37BA96 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:05:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA67414 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:05:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200004010805.AAA67414@agora.bafug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 1 1:34:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 859E937BABB for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 01:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 21213 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2000 09:34:12 -0000 Received: from du09.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.9) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 1 Apr 2000 09:34:12 -0000 Message-ID: <38E5C25F.38D021E0@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 04:33:19 -0500 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and"dangers to BSD"] References: <200003312153.NAA20741@sgi523.lmms.lmco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Spiegel wrote: > > Not true. When the British attempted to split the Colonies in > two down the Hudson Valley, it was the locals and their rifles > who defeated Bourgoyne's (sp?) Army, as it tried to move > from Montreal to British-held NYC. Gates's army was made up of Continentals. There were militia present, but the core of the army was regulars. Of course, the militia played a significant part in harassing the British communications prior to the battle. > This battle was decisive as it convinced the French king to > back the American revolution. He had been reluctant to supply > support because he didn't want the embarrassment of having > backed a loser. > > Since the Colonies had negligible, if not non-existent, > weapons manufacturing capabilities, getting French help > was extremely important. Not to mention French naval support, which alone made possible the capture of Cornwallis at Yorktown. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message