From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 2 1: 5:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCCD37B99A for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 01:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@earthlink.net) Received: from dialin-client.earthlink.net (pool0089.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.192.89]) by eagle.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25001 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 01:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by dialin-client.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02836 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 01:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 01:04:17 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Looking at for Cheap Boxes Message-ID: <20000702010416.A2760@dialin-client.earthlink.net> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the market for a couple of cheap IBM-compatible boxes. I'm sick of rebooting to change OSs. I just ran into these guys who are selling what looks like the kind of thing I'm interested in, http://www.deepspacetech.com/Hardware/systems.htm That is, ol' Pentium systems for $50 or so. Hmmm... Old NextStep systems being sold by a company in MD. Can you said Fed Gov't surplus? From what I see, it looks good, Pentiums, SCSI card is well supported, but I wonder about this "Cogent e+" LAN combo. All I have been able to guess at is that it _might_ be using a DEC chipset (on a DEC machine, hard to believe), but which one and if it is widely supported, I dunno. Anyone know what that is? And does "combo" mean UTP, BNC, and AUI (or some pairing)? On the other hand, if there are any of you in the Bay Area who are trying to dump old Pentiums or even 486s, let me know. I'd be happy to take a couple off your hands. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 2 8:53:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [208.11.142.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371CF37B606; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 08:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from tomasa (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA35138; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:53:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200007021553.LAA35138@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Advocacy List" , "FreebSD ISP list" , "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 11:55:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New Egroups list. Corporate BSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is a new list dedicated to BSD in your organization. This group is intended to be part advocacy, part BSD and part third party systems. Basically anything which will help you get BSD in use or to keep it running in your organization. How does this group differs from: ** Questions We are presenting this group as NOT for absolute beginners and we will suggest to them to seek out the appropiate list. In particular if the question has no relation to BSD use in an organization. ** Advocacy This list will focus on advocacy in a more narrow scope such as strategies to present BSD to your manager or the organization. ** ISP Although ISPs are organizations, their needs are different. For example an ISP may dictate through a contract with the user their rights. On an organization there may exist rules and regulations and the BSD admin would have to be bound to those. i.e. email retention and access policies. An organization may have a policy which dictates that all emails are kept in archive and that they may be randomly checked or scanned for keywords. It is unlikely that an ISP would want to or ask of their user's permission to keep indefinitely and spot check their email. That of course is just an example, but there are many other areas that differ. Some questions that may be raised by this announcement and their answer: -- Why isn't this list hosted by one of the BSD mailing list. I originally thought of this list as a FreeBSD list and asked the List master (jmb) about it. His answer was that he would prefer that we start it and that if it is truly active that he would host it with the FreeBSD lists. I thought that this makes sense. Specially given his feedback that several times people have asked for lists and they have been dead shortly after their creation. --Why is subscription moderated So we can control spammers. If someone spams the list we can ban them. --How do I join? http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 2 16:13:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mout1.silyn-tek.de (mout1.silyn-tek.de [194.25.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFCF37B72E; Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:13:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@big.endian.de) Received: from [192.168.32.34] (helo=mx2.silyn-tek.de) by mout1.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 138svO-0000Qf-00; Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:13:18 +0200 Received: from p3e9d38f1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.157.56.241] helo=neutron.cichlids.com) by mx2.silyn-tek.de with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 138svI-0006v5-00; Mon, 03 Jul 2000 01:13:13 +0200 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A9CAD00; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:13:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 47EB214AA3; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:13:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:13:11 +0200 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/www/apache13-fp/files md5 Message-ID: <20000703011311.A24197@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mail-Followup-To: Kris Kennaway , chat@freebsd.org References: <200007022306.QAA60671@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200007022306.QAA60671@freefall.freebsd.org>; from kris@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 04:06:43PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Kris Kennaway (kris@FreeBSD.org): > but it's not worth worrying about because this is FrontPage and if you > install it you have larger security issues to be concerned about. *chuckle* :-) Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 1:12:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D44E37B628 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 01:12:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA36217; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:12:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Doug White , Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM supercomputer References: <007e01bfe325$45a687e0$49a393cb@timberwolf> <20000630141610.G91583@bone.nectar.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Jul 2000 10:12:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine"'s message of "Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:16:10 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > I think this is a common misconception. Windows NT did (does?) have a > OS/2-like subsystem, but the resemblance ends there. Well, NTFS is a bastardized HPFS. They even use the same partition type number and it's hard to tell them apart without actually trying to mount them. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 10:59:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (astrovan.cstone.net [209.145.64.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8262A37B795 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net ([209.145.93.143]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:52:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3960D373.5EE45DF9@cstone.net> Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 13:54:59 -0400 From: Sean Michael Whipkey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Suggested new list freebsd-corporate References: <200007020547.BAA16718@vulcan.addy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > Also I am leaning towards making it "BSD-Corporate" so other > BSDs can be involved. > Would this be a problem with hosting the list with the rest of > the FreeBSD lists? I think that's a damn good idea. SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - Geek-a-mondo "Extra ninjas make any party, family gathering, or war scene tons more interesting." http://www.ninjahypothesis.com/messenger.htm ObCompanyPlug: http://www.mrgoodbucks.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 14:47:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6165237B8F4 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e63LlEv86661; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:47:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM supercomputer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3 Jul 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > > I think this is a common misconception. Windows NT did (does?) have a > > OS/2-like subsystem, but the resemblance ends there. > > Well, NTFS is a bastardized HPFS. They even use the same partition > type number and it's hard to tell them apart without actually trying > to mount them. There's a reason the NT installer will destroy any HPFS partitions it finds. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 15:13: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (news.IAE.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0AD37C1D0 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 15:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Arjan.deVet@adv.iae.nl) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.9.1/8.9.1) with IAEhv.nl id AAA05055; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:12:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by adv.iae.nl (Postfix, from userid 100) id 44A6D22E3; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:11:52 +0200 (CEST) To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr Subject: Re: usenix pictures, be afraid. X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <20000629212905.A72795@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <20000626230501.U5255@jade.chc-chimes.com> Organization: Internet Access Eindhoven, the Netherlands Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-Id: <20000703221152.44A6D22E3@adv.iae.nl> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:11:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Arjan.deVet@adv.iae.nl (Arjan de Vet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <20000629212905.A72795@keltia.freenix.fr> you write: >According to Jamie Bowden: >> Matheson's head, the back of my head, the side and back of Guido Rooij > >Guido van Rooij > >> (I'm not sure on spelling of that last name, Guido can hit me or something >> later if he feels it's necessary), and part of Arjen (who's last name I > >Arjan de Vet Thanks. B.t.w., in the Netherlands a lot of people call me Arjen (which is also a Dutch name) and it's very strange to see a non Dutchman making a Dutch mistake ;-). ArjAn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 21:52:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8BF37B549; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA14214; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: John Baldwin Cc: Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: addport kicks easy-import out In-Reply-To: <395D4533.773369D3@bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > So, are there any easy ways to tell imports of new ports apart > from other ports commits now? Before I could use the 'Imported > sources' bit in the subject line as my filter. Someone (Joe, I think) recently added an X-CVS header to the commit mails to label MFCs - perhaps it already includes ports as well: if not, it should be trivial to add. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 23:40:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D1037C17F; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA31942; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA37726; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200007040641.XAA37726@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 23:41:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: addport kicks easy-import out Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Will Andrews , John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Jul-00 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >> So, are there any easy ways to tell imports of new ports apart >> from other ports commits now? Before I could use the 'Imported >> sources' bit in the subject line as my filter. > > Someone (Joe, I think) recently added an X-CVS header to the commit mails > to label MFCs - perhaps it already includes ports as well: if not, it > should be trivial to add. It just lists the branch and is present for every commit. Ports are always on -HEAD though. :) > Kris -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 3 23:46:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D40F37BBA1; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA32746; Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:46:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Will Andrews , John Baldwin Subject: Re: addport kicks easy-import out In-Reply-To: <200007040641.XAA37726@john.baldwin.cx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > It just lists the branch and is present for every commit. Ports > are always on -HEAD though. :) Right, but the concept could be easily extended to which TLD of the repo the commit falls into (src, ports, distrib, doc, www, sup, CVSROOT) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 0:10:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.geekhouse.net [64.81.6.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D445237B775; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (root@john.baldwin.cx [192.168.1.18]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA32117; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john@baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by john.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA40323; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from john) Message-Id: <200007040711.AAA40323@john.baldwin.cx> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:11:15 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: addport kicks easy-import out Cc: John Baldwin , Will Andrews , chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Jul-00 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > >> It just lists the branch and is present for every commit. Ports >> are always on -HEAD though. :) > > Right, but the concept could be easily extended to which TLD of the repo > the commit falls into (src, ports, distrib, doc, www, sup, CVSROOT) That is already easy: elsif header :contains "Sender" "committers" { # commit messages if header :matches "Subject" "cvs commit:*" { # ports if header :contains "Subject" "ports" { # check for a new port if header :contains "Subject" "Imported sources" { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.ports.new"; } else { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.ports"; } } # src elsif header :contains "Subject" "src" { # split based on branch if header :is "X-FreeBSD-CVS-Branch" "RELENG_4" { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.src-4"; } elsif header :is "X-FreeBSD-CVS-Branch" "RELENG_3" { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.src-3"; } else { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.src-current"; } } # doc and www elsif header :contains "Subject" ["doc", "www"] { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.doc-www"; } # misc. commits else { fileinto "FreeBSD.Committers.misc"; } } } > Kris -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 3:39:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from horizon2.webcentral.com.au (horizon2.webcentral.com.au [202.139.235.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 538C237B733 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 03:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wyldephyre2@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 29468 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2000 10:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO timberwolf) (203.147.163.119) by horizon2.webcentral.com.au with SMTP; 4 Jul 2000 10:39:35 -0000 Message-ID: <000d01bfe634$7a3450c0$77a393cb@timberwolf> From: "Haikal Saadh" To: Subject: My new T-Shirt... Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:52:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ...heh heh... I was walking down the street in my FreeBSD TShirt today, when I saw one of my Network Admin lecturers (who's a linux head, I know for sure) going the opposite way. Man, the way he veered off at an odd angle when he saw me was funny....as if I had some sort of forcefield around me..heh heh..shame I didn't get it earlier this semester to wear to class. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOWKxCmDp/0spTtEtEQIbSwCfQ9eLGFTp8bCfmj+NlN7Gs2n93kIAoJva FXocfp7/Z9NXO1qAuUNzwRM4 =5Sat -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 9:18:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6212737B585 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.90.105]) by mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000704171745.WMAB10065.mta02-svc.server.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:17:45 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01653; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:18:00 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 17:17:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Doug White Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Haikal Saadh , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM supercomputer Message-ID: <20000704171759.A233@parish> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu on Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:47:14PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:47:14PM -0700, Doug White wrote: > On 3 Jul 2000, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > > > I think this is a common misconception. Windows NT did (does?) have a > > > OS/2-like subsystem, but the resemblance ends there. > > > > Well, NTFS is a bastardized HPFS. They even use the same partition > > type number and it's hard to tell them apart without actually trying > > to mount them. > > There's a reason the NT installer will destroy any HPFS partitions it > finds. > Huh? I've installed NT (3.51 & 4) on a PC running OS/2 and it didn't trash the HPFS partition. BTW, although M$ dropped support for HPFS in NT4 it is still possible to restore that feature. > Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve > dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- If I buy a copy of WinDelete, and it doesn't delete Windows, am I entitled to my money back? ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 10:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bsdhome.dyndns.org (rdu162-228-096.nc.rr.com [24.162.228.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A589437B656 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from vger.bsdhome.com (vger [192.168.220.2]) by bsdhome.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45499 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:14:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@bsdhome.com) Received: from localhost (bsd@localhost) by vger.bsdhome.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27982; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:14:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bsd@vger.bsdhome.com) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:14:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Dean To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Why multiple licenses? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, This may be a really dumb question, but here goes. What is gained by having your code distributed with multiple licenses? I've seen/heard about instances where some folks release their code under both a GPL and a BSD style license. For a consumer of that code, does the most restrictive license apply? The least restrictive? Does the consumer choose which license they choose to follow? Is the resulting license some fusion of the two licenses? What if the two licenses have conflicting goals? I'm just looking for a simple answer to this, not a long legal lesson. I'm curious about this because I plan to soon release some software for public use and I am suddenly interested in licenses. Having multiple licenses seemed odd. I can understand that a person may have one license for one group, and a different license for another group. But I'm curious about what it means to have two very different licenses that may be applied simultaneously. Thanks, -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org bsd@bsdhome.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 12:19: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7799437B899 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: from bugsbunny (4.bitsurfr.soho.enteract.com [216.80.48.52]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA62855; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:18:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) From: "Chris Silva" To: "Haikal Saadh" , Subject: RE: My new T-Shirt... Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:19:24 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000d01bfe634$7a3450c0$77a393cb@timberwolf> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I get the same thing when I wear my OpenBSD T's to work ;) #-----Original Message----- #From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG #[mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Haikal Saadh #Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:53 PM #To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG #Subject: My new T-Shirt... # # #-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- #Hash: SHA1 # #...heh heh... I was walking down the street in my FreeBSD TShirt #today, when I saw one of my Network Admin lecturers (who's a linux #head, I know for sure) going the opposite way. # #Man, the way he veered off at an odd angle when he saw me was #funny....as if I had some sort of forcefield around me..heh #heh..shame I didn't get it earlier this semester to wear to class. # #-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- #Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use # #iQA/AwUBOWKxCmDp/0spTtEtEQIbSwCfQ9eLGFTp8bCfmj+NlN7Gs2n93kIAoJva #FXocfp7/Z9NXO1qAuUNzwRM4 #=5Sat #-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- # # # # #To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org #with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message # To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 12:21:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A8237BB6B for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA50137; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@q.closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:20:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Chris Silva Cc: Haikal Saadh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: My new T-Shirt... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Odd thing is that I get the opposite reaction if I wear my UF shirts... must be the SGI O2 ;) // Linh Pham // // Proud supporter of FreeBSD and OpenBSD // FreeBSD - http://www.freebsd.org // OpenBSD - http://www.openbsd.org /* "Oregon, n.: Eighty billion gallons of water with no place to go on Saturday night." */ On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Chris Silva wrote: > I get the same thing when I wear my OpenBSD T's to work ;) > > #-----Original Message----- > #From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > #[mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Haikal Saadh > #Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:53 PM > #To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > #Subject: My new T-Shirt... > # > # > #-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > #Hash: SHA1 > # > #...heh heh... I was walking down the street in my FreeBSD TShirt > #today, when I saw one of my Network Admin lecturers (who's a linux > #head, I know for sure) going the opposite way. > # > #Man, the way he veered off at an odd angle when he saw me was > #funny....as if I had some sort of forcefield around me..heh > #heh..shame I didn't get it earlier this semester to wear to class. > # > #-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > #Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use > # > #iQA/AwUBOWKxCmDp/0spTtEtEQIbSwCfQ9eLGFTp8bCfmj+NlN7Gs2n93kIAoJva > #FXocfp7/Z9NXO1qAuUNzwRM4 > #=5Sat > #-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > # > # > # > # > #To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > #with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > # > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 4 13: 6:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FFA37B9FF for ; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:05:59 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brian Dean" , Subject: RE: Why multiple licenses? Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:06:20 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This may be a really dumb question, but here goes. What is gained by > having your code distributed with multiple licenses? I've seen/heard > about instances where some folks release their code under both a GPL > and a BSD style license. For a consumer of that code, does the most > restrictive license apply? The least restrictive? Does the consumer > choose which license they choose to follow? Is the resulting license > some fusion of the two licenses? What if the two licenses have > conflicting goals? Basically, nothing is gained over just releasing with the BSD license. Since the BSD license allows someone to redistribute the code under a more restrictive license if they choose to. However, if you do release under dual licenses, and someone submits modifications to the GPL-licensed version, you can't propogate those changes into the BSD-licensed version. So some people may create both versions immediately just to manage the (potentially) diverging code bases. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 0:13:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ACA637BD0D for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 00:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e657CYA72291; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 00:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 00:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Mark Ovens Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Haikal Saadh , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IBM supercomputer In-Reply-To: <20000704171759.A233@parish> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > There's a reason the NT installer will destroy any HPFS partitions it > > finds. > > Huh? I've installed NT (3.51 & 4) on a PC running OS/2 and it didn't > trash the HPFS partition. s/destroy/will require you to destroy/ At least if you want to make the boot partition NTFS, I guess. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 1:50:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from osiris.ipform.ru (osiris.ipform.ru [212.158.165.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADDBB37B712 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 01:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from xtc@norilsk.net) Received: from wp3 ([192.168.0.13] helo=norilsk.net) by osiris.ipform.ru with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 139ktA-0008nF-00; Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:50:36 +0400 Message-ID: <3962F72F.6D37DD93@norilsk.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:51:59 +0400 From: Yury XTC Organization: WDA Norilsk.NET X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "modperl@apache.org" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: mod_perl vs fastcgi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Instaled : FreeBSD 4.0 + Apache 1.3.12 + mod_perl 1.24 + FastCGI 0.52 1) I installed apache with mod_perl - the speed increased.But I didn't understand HOW mod_perl optimizes use of resources and increases speed ? Does it share perl interpreter, script or anything else? 2) Then I installed FastCGI - but I didn't see the differance. Speed and memory usage remained the same. I test with mysql database (16000 records, 5 fields of different types) - SELECT * FROM TEST WHERE one < $a and one > $b; Next, I open, read and parse 5Mb text file. With LWP::Parallel::UserAgent perl module I send 10 parallel requests. Do mod_perl and FastCGI installed in the same Apache server interact and how do they interact if they do at all? Was Lighte! Yury XTC xtc@norilsk.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 2:38: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4C837BFDF for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 02:37:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA53069; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:36:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:36:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: The Clark Family Cc: j mckitrick , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM supercomputer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, The Clark Family wrote: > > Built of the H80 or S80 systems? CHRP compliant, and running the PPC > processor? Could run NetBSD or PPC linux on it? > > [RC] That PPC is bound to be a 64bit PPC - and neither Linux nor NetBSD afaik support those. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 3:34:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C9637BF3C for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 03:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA54032; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:34:36 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:34:35 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Dann Lunsford Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)) In-Reply-To: <20000701124530.A36442@greycat.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 1 Jul 2000, Dann Lunsford wrote: > I've been thinking about the Linuxulator a bit lately (trying to get a > DVD player from Linux on my FreeBSD laptop), and the analogy in $SUBJECT > hit me. It has always seemed to me that one of the worst things that > IBM did was make the Windoze subsystem of OS/2 too good; there was no > need for anyone to produce OS/2 stuff, since OS/2 people could simply > use the Windoze version of Product X (I can recall being told *exactly* > this from >10 vendors). This despite the fact that native versions > would perform better, be able to have more features, etc. > > Now I'm worried. We all know what happened to OS/2; is there a danger > of the same thing happening to FreeBSD? I think there is. I recently > saw that Applix was considering dropping FreeBSD as a platform, in > favor of Linux only; I wrote them a polite protest, as I'm sure a lot > of you did, and was pleased to see later that Applixware-FreeBSD would > continue. However, that announcement was lukewarm, and left, in > my mind, at least, a distinct impression that they would prefer to > just concentrate on Linux. I saw precisely the same attitudes from > vendors wrt OS/2 vs Windoze. > > Now, I freely admit to being a bit paranoid; but, as the saying > goes, paranoids can have real enemies, too. > > Thoughts? The only two things that ultimately helps keep people making programs that are for freebsd are: a) the ability to do so easily b) the willingness of people to buy the freebsd version of these programs > -- > Dann Lunsford The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil > Idann@greycat.com is that men of good will do nothing. -- Cicero > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 4:54:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCE637BD67 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:54:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3C87B755D; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2EA1D91; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Arjan de Vet Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: usenix pictures, be afraid. In-Reply-To: <20000703221152.44A6D22E3@adv.iae.nl> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Arjan de Vet wrote: :In article <20000629212905.A72795@keltia.freenix.fr> you write: :>According to Jamie Bowden: :>> (I'm not sure on spelling of that last name, Guido can hit me or something :>> later if he feels it's necessary), and part of Arjen (who's last name I :>Arjan de Vet :B.t.w., in the Netherlands a lot of people call me Arjen (which is also :a Dutch name) and it's very strange to see a non Dutchman making a Dutch :mistake ;-). I couldn't remember how it was spelled exactly, so I went phonetic. :ArjAn I did note the difference. Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 5 17:53:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4BD37BD1B for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18310; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000705185057.04988a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:52:57 -0600 To: Narvi , Dann Lunsford From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000701124530.A36442@greycat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:34 AM 7/5/2000, Narvi wrote: >The only two things that ultimately helps keep people making programs that >are for freebsd are: > a) the ability to do so easily > b) the willingness of people to buy the freebsd version of these > programs Not quite true. If developers perceive that the "easiest" way is just to develop for Linux and let FreeBSD users run the software under emulation, then (a) results in the software NOT being ported. And because there is one less version to support, the vendor doesn't have to worry about (b). So, once emulation in place, the business case for focusing on Linux becomes compelling for many vendors. Sad, but true. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 7:44:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Shark.Aval.Kiev.UA (aval-cs.aval.kiev.ua [194.44.50.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CEE937B535 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 07:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aav@speedy.aval.kiev.ua) Received: from speedy.aval.kiev.ua (speedy.aval.kiev.ua [194.44.50.120]) by Shark.Aval.Kiev.UA (8.9.3/who.care) with ESMTP id RAA12835 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:44:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from aval.kiev.ua by speedy.aval.kiev.ua with ESMTP id e66Ei1S20301; (8.10.2/vak/who.care) Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:44:01 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <39649B31.1229C20A@aval.kiev.ua> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:44:01 +0300 From: Alexander Alexeenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat%FreeBSD.org@relay.ua.net Subject: Option MD5 question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Where is MD5 option in kernel configuration file. FreeBSD 4.0-20000619-STABLE. Thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 9:45:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C70137B6C8; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25898; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 10:44:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 -0600 To: Narvi , Dann Lunsford From: Brett Glass Subject: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just in communication with the developers of Opera this morning, and it appears that the presence of Linux emulation in FreeBSD is likely to cost us a native port of this superior browser and e-mail client. According to an employee of Opera software, >Just talked with Darren [their lead developer for UNIX] who said he >doesn't have the time to make native FREEBSD at the moment, and since the >Linux emulation version work so damn well this is not a priority. In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a native port. And if Linux ever pulls the rug out from under the emulator by adding or changing APIs (Microsoft did this to OS/2's Windows emulation), we're hosed altogether. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The correct strategy is not to emulate a competitive OS, *ever*. Rather, create an emulation of your *own* API that runs on *their* platform. (This is the strategy that Java took, and it's no wonder that it got Microsoft so scared; it works!) Putting an emulator on *their* platform increases the value of coding to your API, whereas emulating their API decreases it. There are only three things that can be done NOW to prevent virtually every commercial software developer from using the emulator instead of porting to FreeBSD: 1) In the case of Opera, lobby like crazy for a native port, assuring them that we'll buy lots of copies but will *not* buy a Linux version. If possible, volunteer labor. There's *still* no guarantee that we will ever get a port, but it's certainly worth a shot. 2) To solve the more general problem, start working on a FreeBSD API emulator for Linux. It won't have to be GPLed (so that we won't have to produce GPLed code as with the Linux emulation), and it will be easier to maintain than the current emulator. Port the same emulation layer to other UNIX-like OSes, including Solaris and the other open source BSDs. 3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 14: 4:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1080337B63F; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA70129; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar > products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? On the other hand, I don't think I really want to know. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 15: 8:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C40337B58A; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29422; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:08:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:59:00 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:04 PM 7/6/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think >that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? The libraries are an integral part of the Linux emulation package, and they *are* GPLed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 15:54:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0F337B866; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 15:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA32059; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:54:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:54:39 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: :At 03:04 PM 7/6/2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: : :>Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think :>that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? : :The libraries are an integral part of the Linux emulation package, and :they *are* GPLed. Only because no one has written a BSD licensed replacement for them. I'm sure that if someone would supply them, they'd get committed. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 16:30:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5226D37B60E; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA14094; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:31:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQfaWEB; Thu Jul 6 16:30:56 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA07626; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:30:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007062330.QAA07626@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) To: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kennaway" at Jul 06, 2000 02:04:48 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In short, we're likely to be stuck running Opera, and other similar > > products, under a (GPLed!) emulator *forever*, with little or no hope of a > > Where *do* you get some of your ideas, Brett? Whatever makes you think > that the Linux ABI code in FreeBSD is under the GPL? I think he is referring to the Linux threads kernel module, which is required to run many modern Linux programs written by people who don't understand finite state automata. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 16:58:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF96437BA34; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA53085; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 16:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:58:22 -0700 Message-ID: <53082.962927902@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The correct strategy is not to > emulate a competitive OS, *ever*. This thread is as silly now as it was the first time it came up. Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. You can, of course, choose to totally disagree with this assertion and rant on for 300 or more messages on the topic if you so decide, we cannot stop you. Whether you choose to do so or not, however, nobody is going to remove the linux compatability code and it will continue to be maintained until such time as Linux goes closed-source and screws up the APIs so badly that they cannot be effectively reverse-engineered or otherwise emulated. Period. You might just as well attempt to repeal the laws of gravity. You can, and in fact do, also totally disagree with this as a strategy and can pontificate at great length about your views on how to properly support/evangelise/encourage the freebsd native API, how ignorant we are in our insistence on supporting the linux API in any way, shape or form or otherwise attempt to continue to fight an entirely losing battle to somehow "desupport Linux compatability" in FreeBSD. None of that will change the fact that it's a fight you've already lost well in advance and honestly, if you have any common sense at all, you'll save your fingers and our mailboxes by not refighting and relosing it all over again. The users like and use it and that means it's not going away, also period. Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" (or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 17:43:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sofia.csl.sri.com (sofia.csl.sri.com [130.107.19.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FB137B505 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@sofia.csl.sri.com) Received: (from molter@localhost) by sofia.csl.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA08773; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter) From: Marco Molteni Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:44:40 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) Message-ID: <20000706174440.A8752@sofia.csl.sri.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre4i In-Reply-To: <53082.962927902@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:58:22PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 06 Jul 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > This thread is as silly now as it was the first time it came up. Please, please, put this in the fortune database :-) Marco -- Marco Molteni "rough consensus and running code" SRI International, System Design Laboratory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 18:30:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BCC37BC31; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01332; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:30:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:28:45 -0600 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706155807.04468240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:54 PM 7/6/2000, David Scheidt wrote: >Only because no one has written a BSD licensed replacement for them. I'm >sure that if someone would supply them, they'd get committed. Duplicating all of the idiosyncrasies of the Linux libraries would require a "clean room" approach, so it would take at least two people -- not one. Also, ongoing "clean rooming" would be necessary to accommodate changes to Linux as they came. All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key applications. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 18:30:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA66637BBB4 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:30:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01329; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:30:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 19:30:21 -0600 To: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <20000706174440.A8752@sofia.csl.sri.com> References: <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:44 PM 7/6/2000, Marco Molteni wrote: >On Thu, 06 Jul 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> This thread is as silly now as it was the first time it came up. > >Please, please, put this in the fortune database :-) Or should we wait until threads work better? ;-) Seriously, though, it appears that certain folks are in denial about the negative results of emulating another platform, even though they are being demonstrated again and again. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 18:40: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 31DD637BC43 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 18:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4433 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 01:39:52 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 01:39:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 12735 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 01:39:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:09:51 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Marco Molteni , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) Message-ID: <20000707070950.A12730@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <20000706174440.A8752@sofia.csl.sri.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 07:30:21PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2000 at 19:30:21: > Seriously, though, it appears that certain folks are in denial about > the negative results of emulating another platform, even though they > are being demonstrated again and again. It stuns me, the logic is so obvious and inevitable -- the GPL is evil, therefore linux is evil, therefore it's like Microsoft, therefore it will take the first opportunity to "pull the rug out from under the emulator by adding or changing APIs" and "hose" FreeBSD -- how come nobody was able to see this awful truth before Brett came along and enlightened us? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19: 3: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.tesserae.com (freebsd.tesserae.com [209.157.194.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBFB37BCB3; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pwiley@cadabra.com) Received: by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6148F45B; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freebsd.tesserae.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7B0442; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:02:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Preston S. Wiley" X-Sender: pwiley@freebsd.tesserae.com To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > applications. Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. - Preston To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19: 5:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D8937BA7B; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA32161; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "Preston S. Wiley" Cc: Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > > applications. > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. Hokay, I have no desire to be subjected to this argument another time..Brett, if you or anyone else feel compelled to reply please remove my name from the CC list. Thanks. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19:11:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66BE37BD77; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01708; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:11:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:11:00 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <53082.962927902@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:58 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability >code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. It *is* useful, Jordan. It's useful to ensure that FreeBSD doesn't get native ports of applications. It's useful to maintain FreeBSD in its position of playing second fiddle to Linux forever. And it's useful to limit BSDi's profit potential and the extent of any rewards you personally are likely to reap -- ever -- from your many years of hard work on FreeBSD. I do NOT want to continue this thread for 300 messages, but fortunately, there's no need to. It can all be said in a few short paragraphs. Jordan, by putting out an OS which emulates a stronger competitor, while at the same time NOT providing FreeBSD API compatibility for other OSes, you're making two strategic errors that will sabotage not only your life's work so far but your own prospects for being justly and fairly compensated, and duly recognized, for what you do. That's not fair to you or to FreeBSD. >Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist >tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing >at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" >(or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. You *are* dreaming, Jordan, but not in the way you think. YOU are the Quixotic one, not I, and you're dreaming in the same way Don Quixote does in the well-known musical "Man of La Mancha:" To dream the impossible dream; To fight the unbeatable foe; To bear with unbearable sorrow; To run where the brave dare not go.... (etc) Don Quixote is so immersed in his books that he loses touch with reality -- to the extent that he doesn't even snap out of it when he tilts at windmills until they beat him senseless. It really hurts to see this happen to you, especially when the beating in this case is coming at the hands of one Richard Stallman, a nasty demagogue if there ever was one. This is reality, Jordan. Linux emulation has gotten FreeBSD into serious trouble vis a vis third party application support -- the lifeblood of any operating environment. Only by taking correct and decisive action can it recover from that damage. I'm not proposing that Linux emulation be cut off instantly (since, as you say, it cannot and will not be) but rather that an exit strategy be devised for it -- at the end of which emulation will be neither desired nor needed by anyone. The only exit from the emulation trap (as I've already mentioned) involves turning the tables and executing the same "middleware" play that Microsoft so feared when it was executed by Sun and Netscape. Richard Stallman and the FSF are every bit as predatory and desirous of an all-encompassing empire as is Bill Gates, and only the same techniques that threatened to keep Microsoft in check will work to counter Linux's utter dominance in the sphere were FreeBSD should be thriving. Capisch? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19:14:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E1137C01E; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01743; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:13:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:13:44 -0600 To: "Preston S. Wiley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:02 PM 7/6/2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: >Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user >base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux >compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything >Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) >The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. The flaw in this argument is that the USERS are not the ones who have to make the decision whether to port. It's the DEVELOPERS. And if the developers see the Linux API as universal and therefore write to it, it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE how many users FreeBSD has. The ports will not happen. Period. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19:15: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 318B337BD8E for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4518 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 02:14:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:44:48 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 08:11:00PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for emulation then. Well, it works for me anyway. Brett Glass said on Jul 6, 2000 at 20:11:00: > At 05:58 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability > >code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. > > It *is* useful, Jordan. It's useful to ensure that FreeBSD doesn't get > native ports of applications. It's useful to maintain FreeBSD in its > position of playing second fiddle to Linux forever. And it's useful to > limit BSDi's profit potential and the extent of any rewards you > personally are likely to reap -- ever -- from your many years of hard > work on FreeBSD. > > I do NOT want to continue this thread for 300 messages, but fortunately, > there's no need to. It can all be said in a few short paragraphs. > > Jordan, by putting out an OS which emulates a stronger competitor, > while at the same time NOT providing FreeBSD API compatibility for > other OSes, you're making two strategic errors that will sabotage > not only your life's work so far but your own prospects for being > justly and fairly compensated, and duly recognized, for what you do. > That's not fair to you or to FreeBSD. > > >Not that I expect our very own Don Quixote and his donkey to resist > >tilting at this particular windmill again, at least not without firing > >at least a few shots at us for "our unbelievable short-sightedness" > >(or some such variant on the above), but I suppose I can dream. > > You *are* dreaming, Jordan, but not in the way you think. YOU are > the Quixotic one, not I, and you're dreaming in the same way Don > Quixote does in the well-known musical "Man of La Mancha:" > > To dream the impossible dream; > To fight the unbeatable foe; > To bear with unbearable sorrow; > To run where the brave dare not go.... (etc) > > Don Quixote is so immersed in his books that he loses touch with reality > -- to the extent that he doesn't even snap out of it when he tilts at > windmills until they beat him senseless. > > It really hurts to see this happen to you, especially when the beating in > this case is coming at the hands of one Richard Stallman, a nasty demagogue > if there ever was one. > > This is reality, Jordan. Linux emulation has gotten FreeBSD into serious > trouble vis a vis third party application support -- the lifeblood of any > operating environment. Only by taking correct and decisive action can it > recover from that damage. I'm not proposing that Linux emulation be cut off > instantly (since, as you say, it cannot and will not be) but rather that an > exit strategy be devised for it -- at the end of which emulation will be > neither desired nor needed by anyone. > > The only exit from the emulation trap (as I've already mentioned) involves > turning the tables and executing the same "middleware" play that Microsoft > so feared when it was executed by Sun and Netscape. Richard Stallman and the > FSF are every bit as predatory and desirous of an all-encompassing empire > as is Bill Gates, and only the same techniques that threatened to keep > Microsoft in check will work to counter Linux's utter dominance in the > sphere were FreeBSD should be thriving. Capisch? > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19:32:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E43937BAE8 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:32:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01921; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:31:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201432.04823970@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:31:40 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707070950.A12730@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <20000706174440.A8752@sofia.csl.sri.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:39 PM 7/6/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It stuns me, the logic is so obvious and inevitable -- the GPL is evil, The correct word is "unethical." The word "evil" implies unthinking condemnation, whereas "unethical" implies (correctly) that it violates universal ethical standards. >therefore linux is evil, A piece of code cannot be "evil" per se. However, Linux serves to increase the scope of the FSF's power and influence and to spread the GPL. It is thus an instrumentality of the FSF and its unethical agenda. >therefore it's like Microsoft, No. It is the FSF, not Linux, which is like Microsoft. Look at the similarities: a) It engages in predatory and unethical business practices; b) It is controlled by a leader who has all the money he desires but has an insatiable lust for control and power; and c) It seeks complete dominance of the realm of software. >therefore it >will take the first opportunity to "pull the rug out from under the >emulator by adding or changing APIs" and "hose" FreeBSD The Linux camp is highly fanatical in its quest for dominance and equally so in its jihad against commercial software vendors. The more radical members of this group -- incluing Richard Stallman and Bruce Perens -- openly express frustration at the presence of the BSDs, saying that they weaken the effects of the FSF's anti-business agenda by providing open source code which commercial developers can use. To counter this effect, the zealous leaders of this group often bash FreeBSD and seek to undermine it in other ways as well. Of course, if they were clever, they'd make it very EASY for FreeBSD to emulate Linux, so as to further undermine FreeBSD's chances of getting native ports. But some in the Linux camp are likely to mistakenly believe that emulation is good for FreeBSD, just as some here do. And these people may say, "Look! They're emulating us! We've got to stop that!" If this occurs, they may try to make emulation difficult -- perhaps via patents, perhaps via tightening the licensing, or perhaps by making the API a moving target (a la Microsoft). In any event, as long as FreeBSD relies upon emulation to run key apps, it's a real risk. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 19:46:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9922937B695; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02057; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 20:46:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:46:05 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:14 PM 7/6/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for >emulation then. > >Well, it works for me anyway. Remember, most open source software consists of copies of commercial products. The commercial products need to be there first. And the majority of people (especially businesspeople who don't want to be computer geeks like us) desire software that's written, packaged, and supported by people who stake their daily bread on it rather than being volunteers. Finally, too much of the software out there that claims to be "Open Source" is not Open Source at all. It's GPLed. (The GPL violates the Open Source Definition in that it discriminates against a field of endeavor: commercial software development. Therefore, despite claims to the contrary, GPLed software is NOT Open Source.) There isn't enough TRUE open source software out there -- at least not yet -- to fill all the needs most of us have. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21: 4: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A4B0C37B563 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:03:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4647 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 04:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 04:03:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 3345 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 04:03:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:33:48 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707093348.A3336@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 08:46:05PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Remember, most open source software consists of copies of commercial > products. The commercial products need to be there first. And the I never knew that. I'm thinking of TeX, vi, emacs, most email/internet software, etc. What would I have done without those kind and generous commercial developers. Since you take everything I write literally, I suppose I must return the compliment and believe you too, but I wonder where Knuth stole *his* ideas from.... > Finally, too much of the software out there that claims to be "Open > Source" is not Open Source at all. It's GPLed. (The GPL violates the Doesn't bother me. Besides, are you saying that if something is GPL'd, the FreeBSD binary doesn't count as a "native port"? > claims to the contrary, GPLed software is NOT Open Source.) There > isn't enough TRUE open source software out there -- at least not > yet -- to fill all the needs most of us have. So go out and write your own and put what licence you like on it. The so-called "linux crowd" is doing that, and they're quite entitled to use the GPL if they prefer to. And many FreeBSD users are quite happy to use the same software via the ports. The only way to change that is to do better yourself, not to whine about how the GPL is taking over the world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21:18:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9851D37B695 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 7881 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 04:18:12 -0000 Received: from du84.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.84) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 04:18:12 -0000 Message-ID: <396559E2.45585B92@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:17:38 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Preston S. Wiley" , David Scheidt , Kris Kennaway , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:02 PM 7/6/2000, Preston S. Wiley wrote: > > >Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > >base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > >compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > >Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > >The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. > > The flaw in this argument is that the USERS are not the ones who have to > make the decision whether to port. It's the DEVELOPERS. And if the > developers see the Linux API as universal and therefore write to it, > it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE how many users FreeBSD has. The ports will not > happen. Period. Why does the absence of a native version, assuming the Linux version works well under emulation, matter? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21:21:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38E337BD97 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02855; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:21:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706220901.046daad0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:21:19 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707093348.A3336@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:03 PM 7/6/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> Remember, most open source software consists of copies of commercial >> products. The commercial products need to be there first. And the > >I never knew that. I'm thinking of TeX, vi, emacs, most >email/internet software, etc. vi and emacs both emulated the screen editors that were already available on some commercial systems of the day. TeX was not the first batch-oriented text formatting program. The first WAN e-mail software was around long before the Internet; Datapoint had it, as did IBM and Texas Instruments. (TI wasn't known as a networking pioneer because they weren't successful at marketing their technology, but they used it in-house because their business was spread out between so many cities.) > What would I have done without those >kind and generous commercial developers. Since you take everything I >write literally, I suppose I must return the compliment and believe >you too, but I wonder where Knuth stole *his* ideas from.... Actually, Knuth has talked about this. See some of his papers and the heavily documented source code of TeX. >> Finally, too much of the software out there that claims to be "Open >> Source" is not Open Source at all. It's GPLed. (The GPL violates the > >Doesn't bother me. It should. By touting GPLed software as open source, the FSF furthers its goal of hurting programmers -- like you and me. >Besides, are you saying that if something is GPL'd, the FreeBSD binary doesn't >count as a "native port"? No, I'm not saying that. However, if it is GPLed, it is undesirable in that it propagates and promotes the GPL and the FSF agenda. >So go out and write your own and put what licence you like on it. Yes, that's right: Go ahead and burn yourself out reimplementing the wheel. Oh, and you'll never get paid for your time because the FSF's lemmings have destroyed the market. Right. Sure. This is reminiscent of Microsoft's Jim Allchin: "We'll put them on a treadmill." >The >so-called "linux crowd" is doing that, and they're quite entitled to >use the GPL if they prefer to. No one is entitled to intentionally harm others or engage in predatory business practices. > And many FreeBSD users are quite happy >to use the same software via the ports. The only way to change that >is to do better yourself, Playing John Henry is not the correct solution. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21:32:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196D637B612; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02972; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:32:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:32:06 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <396559E2.45585B92@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:17 PM 7/6/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Why does the absence of a native version, assuming the Linux version >works well under emulation, matter? Because, simply put, platforms live and die by the amount of NATIVE software that's available for them. Applications are always tuned for the platforms for which they are natively targeted. What's more, I know of no vendor (though perhaps there are a very few out there) that supports the use of its software under an emulation. This by itself is enough to drive serious users to a natively supported platform. It makes no difference if the emulation is actually SUPERIOR to the original. OS/2 ran some 16-bit Windows apps better than Windows 3.1 itself, and it didn't matter one bit; application vendors told me I was on my own if I revealed that I was running the product under Win-OS/2. I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native code. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21:37: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB05837BD76 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 4816 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 04:36:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 04:36:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 3413 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 04:36:48 -0000 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:06:48 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707100648.A3400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> <20000707093348.A3336@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706220901.046daad0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706220901.046daad0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 10:21:19PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > vi and emacs both emulated the screen editors that were already > available on some commercial systems of the day. TeX was not the > first batch-oriented text formatting program. But they were *major* improvements over anything that came earlier. TeX especially. The commercial guys still haven't caught up with it in many respects, it's unbelievable the sorts of fine details it keeps track of. Sorry, if free software is good people will use it, and if it wipes out inferior commercial stuff, so much the better. > >you too, but I wonder where Knuth stole *his* ideas from.... > > Actually, Knuth has talked about this. See some of his papers and > the heavily documented source code of TeX. I haven't read everything he wrote, but I don't remember his acknowledging any commercial programs. Which one(s) in particular is he indebted to? He certainly talks a lot about the fine points of typesetting and the historical evolution of ideas on good typesetting and so on. > It should. By touting GPLed software as open source, the FSF furthers > its goal of hurting programmers -- like you and me. I'm not a programmer. And as a user I have benefited from it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 21:50:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF7C37B6C0; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:50:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54204; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 21:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 20:11:00 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 21:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: <54201.962945434@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wurgh. Let's cut to the chase: I completely disagree. I disagree with your reasoning, I disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with the arguments you present, I disagree with your characterizations of me and of my position on this issue and I completely disagree with your feelings on what "linux compatability is doing to FreeBSD." If there's one thing we can agree upon, its the fact that we disagree. Let's quit while we're at least one up. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 22: 9:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 502DF37BC09 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03361; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:08:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706224459.04759ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:54:11 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707100648.A3400@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706220901.046daad0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <53082.962927902@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706203912.047e4f00@localhost> <20000707093348.A3336@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706220901.046daad0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:36 PM 7/6/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > vi and emacs both emulated the screen editors that were already > > available on some commercial systems of the day. TeX was not the > > first batch-oriented text formatting program. > >But they were *major* improvements over anything that came earlier. >TeX especially. The commercial guys still haven't caught up with >it in many respects, I didn't say it wasn't good work. However, the font rendering algorithms turned out to be somewhat naive; the ones used in Adobe, TrueType, and (especially) Bitstream fonts are much better. >Sorry, if free software is good people will >use it, and if it wipes out inferior commercial stuff, so much the >better. If it incorporates a "poison pill" so that commercial developers cannot take it further (this is the mechanism used by the GPL to destroy markets), then what happens is stagnation. We're already seeing this in the world of C compilers. I'm not happy with the code quality one gets from GCC, but commercial compiler vendors are becoming mighty few due to the fact that GCC is GPLed. (Many people will even use a markedly inferior product if it's free. In this case, the mediocre is the enemy of the good.) > > Actually, Knuth has talked about this. See some of his papers and > > the heavily documented source code of TeX. > >I haven't read everything he wrote, but I don't remember his >acknowledging any commercial programs. He acknowledges folks at Xerox and IBM by name in the source, as I recall, though it's been 15 years since I've read it. > > It should. By touting GPLed software as open source, the FSF furthers > > its goal of hurting programmers -- like you and me. > >I'm not a programmer. And as a user I have benefited from it. In that case, Stallman is counting upon you to be shortsighted and to grab what appears to be in your best interest in the short term rather than thinking long term and caring about the number of options you will have in the future. This is how predatory tactics work. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 22: 9:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860D437BD3C; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03364; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:09:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:08:47 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54201.962945434@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Wurgh. Let's cut to the chase: I completely disagree. I disagree >with your reasoning, I disagree with your conclusions, I disagree with >the arguments you present, I disagree with your characterizations of >me and of my position on this issue and I completely disagree with >your feelings on what "linux compatability is doing to FreeBSD." >If there's one thing we can agree upon, its the fact that we >disagree. Let's quit while we're at least one up. Which way do you think of as "up?" In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and temporally -- of the world. As well as a model of that world that has successfully predicted events which are now occurring. (The problems with obtaining a native port of Opera are just one predicted result.) In any event, this is one area in which I will get NO pleasure from coming back later and saying "I told you so." If you're unwilling to listen NOW, FreeBSD will remain a minor blip on the radar screen, and will not be able to prevent the FSF and its minions from stomping all over it and everyone else in the software world. It'd be sad indeed if you abdicated the power to change that. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 22:33:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F6437B8D4; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA54400; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:33:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 23:08:47 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 22:33:50 -0700 Message-ID: <54397.962948030@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Which way do you think of as "up?" Giving the users what they want now rather than trying to socially engineer either them or the ISVs in unrealistic and impractical ways. You seem to be under the highly misguided impression that simply by giving ISVs some sort of FreeBSD compatability option for Linux, they'll flock to it in droves. Clearly, you have never been or worked for an ISV of any size or you would not hold such hallucinogenic thoughts in your head. > In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a > perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and > temporally -- of the world. This is the classic delusional mindset at work. Because I refuse to belive that you are Napoleon even though you walk around with one hand stuck in your vest and call for Josephine at night in your sleep, I am in your eyes simply unable to see the larger picture and perceive the parallel universe in which you ARE Napoleon. The failure is mine. How convenient, eh? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 23:27:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719AB37BA6D; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e676R6q84220; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA78706; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:27:04 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 11:08:47PM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20000707 08:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a >perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and temporally -- >of the world. As well as a model of that world that has successfully >predicted events which are now occurring. (The problems with obtaining >a native port of Opera are just one predicted result.) Hahahaha. Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the person I know and met (and others as well). Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. Really, you are (unfortunately) really wrong in this aspect. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project And I'm learning the highs and lows of the fake promises... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 23:38:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BD837BCEB; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04162; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:37:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:37:42 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54397.962948030@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:33 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Which way do you think of as "up?" > >Giving the users what they want now rather than trying to socially >engineer either them or the ISVs in unrealistic and impractical ways. Jordan: Giving a platform a competitive edge does not mean "socially engineering" anyone. And "giving the users what [you perceive that] they want now" may turn out to be shortsighted. In the long run, users want applications which are supported on the platform they are running. If you do anything to prevent this from happening, users will ultimately fail to get the applications they want with the support they need and THEY WILL LEAVE. >You seem to be under the highly misguided impression that simply by >giving ISVs some sort of FreeBSD compatability option for Linux, >they'll flock to it in droves. Any single API which can reach a maximum number of users is attractive to developers. This was the intended appeal of Java, before Microsoft queered the deal by creating an incompatible implementation. (Sun should have insisted on authoring the standard implementation for Windows to avoid this.) In any event, the correct thing to do in the UNIX, and UNIX-like, world is to make the API which can address the most users FreeBSD's native API, not that of Linux. By porting the FreeBSD API to Linux, one would accomplish that goal. By going the other way and providing Linux emulation, one makes a case for developing for Linux only. > Clearly, you have never been or worked >for an ISV of any size or you would not hold such hallucinogenic >thoughts in your head. Jordan, the above certainly makes me wonder if YOU have worked for, or have had any experience in dealing with, any applications companies. I do both on a daily basis. Now, it may be counter-intuitive to you, but these people care not a whit about the quality of the platform itself. They only care about how many sales of a given SKU they can get without repackaging or recoding. That's it. You're setting things up so that they will NOT develop for FreeBSD; in fact, you're stacking the deck against it. >> In any event, Jordan, I'd kinda hoped that you'd appreciate a >> perspective that takes a wider view -- both spatially and >> temporally -- of the world. > >This is the classic delusional mindset at work. I see: Anyone who does not agree with you must of course be "delusional," even if his model of the world has accurately predicted events and yours has not. I guess that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, too. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 23:41:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B4F37BDA7; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04197; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:40:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:40:44 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:27 AM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Hahahaha. > >Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also >on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you >absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the >person I know and met (and others as well). >Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. Well, as far getting native ports of applications, emulating Linux has been a macro-level mistake! If this is the sort of "thinking on the macro level" you are talking about, I hope you will agree that there is a problem here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 23:46:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE69537B781; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:46:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john.execpc.com (d48.as7.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.128.176]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.1) id BAA00901; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 01:46:02 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707013952.00b25488@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: fpawlak/mail.execpc.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 01:45:54 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <54397.962948030@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Aaahhh Brett, On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having build problems. "We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the BSD platforms." The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never in the above. Regards, Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 6 23:54:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C26137BD77; Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA04283; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:54:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 00:54:23 -0600 To: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707013952.00b25488@127.0.0.1> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank: I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. --Brett At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Aaahhh Brett, > >On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >build problems. > >"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >BSD platforms." > >The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >in the above. > >Regards, >Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 0: 1: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410F437BD8E for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA06912; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:12:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:58 PM 7/6/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Read my lips: Nobody is ever going to remove the linux compatability > >code, it's too damn useful, end of discussion. > > This is reality, Jordan. Linux emulation has gotten FreeBSD into serious > trouble vis a vis third party application support -- the lifeblood of any > and much other stuff. I have read this sort of stuff before. I just wanted to check in on Jordan's behalf so that he knows there are FreeBSDites who are in favor of the emulation. I use linux emulation and I consider it a good thing. It works. Its useful. Stallman, GPL, none of that matters to me as I consider the usefulness of my OS of choice. I am sure I could write a great dissertation on the matter. One fact remains, after three years of dire warning FreeBSD still seems to be doing quite well. My -questions traffic is twice what it used to be. I doubt this contrived emulation argument is the death knell that it is made out to be. Thanks, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 4:44:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B625637B798 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 04:44:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA19694; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:44:37 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:44:37 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000705185057.04988a30@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:34 AM 7/5/2000, Narvi wrote: > > >The only two things that ultimately helps keep people making programs that > >are for freebsd are: > > a) the ability to do so easily > > b) the willingness of people to buy the freebsd version of these > > programs > > Not quite true. If developers perceive that the "easiest" way is just to > develop for Linux and let FreeBSD users run the software under emulation, > then (a) results in the software NOT being ported. And because there is > one less version to support, the vendor doesn't have to worry about (b). > So, once emulation in place, the business case for focusing on Linux > becomes compelling for many vendors. Sad, but true. > Ok. It seems b) was not clear enough. Let's refrase it: b) given the alternative of buying the Lionux version and running it 'unsopported' under FreeBSD or buying the FreeBSD version that is supported, there are enough people who elect to buy the FreeBSD version > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 5:18: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D884937BC81 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 05:17:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13AX4r-0005O5-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:17:53 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA19364 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:17:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:17:53 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: bsd programming jobs Message-ID: <20000707131752.C19308@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not looking for a specific job or anything, but has anyone observed a general trend in *nix programming jobs? My dream job would be working on some X-based programming project. I work in windoze now, and frankly, i love my company and environment. Windoze is the only thing i would change. But i would eventually like to get into *nix programming, preferably X stuff rather than sql, admin, or console. jm -- --------------------------------------------- Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org Break free of The Matrix. Switch to FreeBSD. --------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 6: 3:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D6D37BC06 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 06:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA20763; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:01:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:01:27 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd programming jobs In-Reply-To: <20000707131752.C19308@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > I'm not looking for a specific job or anything, but has anyone observed a > general trend in *nix programming jobs? My dream job would be working on > some X-based programming project. > > I work in windoze now, and frankly, i love my company and environment. > Windoze is the only thing i would change. But i would eventually like to > get into *nix programming, preferably X stuff rather than sql, admin, or > console. > Depends on where you are located. If that freebsd-uk.eu.org means you are in the uk, go to say jobserve and search for bsd for a start. > jm > -- > --------------------------------------------- > Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org > Break free of The Matrix. Switch to FreeBSD. > --------------------------------------------- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 6: 9:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820CA37BA2A for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 06:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13AXsN-0006kv-00; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:09:03 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA19612; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:09:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:09:03 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Narvi Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd programming jobs Message-ID: <20000707140902.A19469@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000707131752.C19308@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:01:27PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 03:01:27PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > > > > I'm not looking for a specific job or anything, but has anyone observed a > > general trend in *nix programming jobs? My dream job would be working on > > some X-based programming project. > > > > I work in windoze now, and frankly, i love my company and environment. > > Windoze is the only thing i would change. But i would eventually like to > > get into *nix programming, preferably X stuff rather than sql, admin, or > > console. > > > > Depends on where you are located. If that freebsd-uk.eu.org means you are > in the uk, go to say jobserve and search for bsd for a start. well, i'm not really looking for something specific right now, and often those jobs sound very general anyway: 'unix programmer needed', etc. I'm just asking what the general field is like for unix X programming. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 7: 0:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9532837B7E2 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21313; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:55:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:55:07 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd programming jobs In-Reply-To: <20000707140902.A19469@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > > Depends on where you are located. If that freebsd-uk.eu.org means you are > > in the uk, go to say jobserve and search for bsd for a start. > > well, i'm not really looking for something specific right now, and often > those jobs sound very general anyway: 'unix programmer needed', etc. > > I'm just asking what the general field is like for unix X programming. > Then use the search results as an indicator of 'what the general field' is like. Search for the terms you think the job posting would have and use it as a base. I'm not aware of many other ways. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 7: 0:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c006.sfo.cp.net (c003-h004.c003.snv.cp.net [209.228.32.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E12B37BE58 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ignacioc@avantel.net) Received: (cpmta 19008 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 07:00:22 -0700 Received: from DHCP-9.interclan.net.mx (HELO nachito) (148.245.81.9) by smtp.avantel.net (209.228.32.218) with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 07:00:22 -0700 X-Sent: 7 Jul 2000 14:00:22 GMT From: "Ignacio Cristerna" To: "Brett Glass" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: , Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 08:57:59 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just love it! -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass Sent: Viernes, 07 de Julio de 2000 01:54 To: Frank Pawlak; Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Frank: I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. --Brett At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: >Aaahhh Brett, > >On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >build problems. > >"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >BSD platforms." > >The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >in the above. > >Regards, >Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 9: 5:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA0937C16E for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08200; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:05:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:04:50 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706193313.04a8ca40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:12 AM 7/7/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >I have read this sort of stuff before. I just wanted to check in on >Jordan's behalf so that he knows there are FreeBSDites who are in favor of >the emulation. As I've said before, the emulation is a useful workaround for some of them. BUT THEY SHOULD NOT RELY ON IT IN THE LONG RUN! Right now, alas, the emulation is driving applications vendors away from creating native ports, which in turn is hurting the platform and increasing reliance upon the emulator. This is not a good thing. >Stallman, GPL, none of that matters to me as I consider >the usefulness of my OS of choice. It should matter to you, because it is the thing that most seriously threatens your ability to choose in the future. >I am sure I could write a great dissertation on the matter. One fact >remains, after three years of dire warning FreeBSD still seems to be doing >quite well. My -questions traffic is twice what it used to be. Alas, FreeBSD's market share relative to that of Linux appears to be going DOWN, not up. And the situation vis-a-vis native ports is terrible: after three years, FreeBSD has LOST, not gained, native ports. This is a serious threat to the health of the platform. I've done what I could to promote the BSDs, and in fact have made some serious progress in this area (though certain folks -- ahem! -- still seem reluctant to acknowedge it). But emulation is the greatest thorn in FreeBSD's side as a platform. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 9:23:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7035237C000 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08426; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:22:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707100553.046e3470@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:07:05 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows)) Cc: Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000705185057.04988a30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:44 AM 7/7/2000, Narvi wrote: >> >The only two things that ultimately helps keep people making programs that >> >are for freebsd are: >> > a) the ability to do so easily >> > b) the willingness of people to buy the freebsd version of these >> > programs >> >> Not quite true. If developers perceive that the "easiest" way is just to >> develop for Linux and let FreeBSD users run the software under emulation, >> then (a) results in the software NOT being ported. And because there is >> one less version to support, the vendor doesn't have to worry about (b). >> So, once emulation in place, the business case for focusing on Linux >> becomes compelling for many vendors. Sad, but true. >> > >Ok. It seems b) was not clear enough. Let's refrase it: > b) given the alternative of buying the Lionux version and running > it 'unsopported' under FreeBSD or buying the FreeBSD version > that is supported, there are enough people who elect to buy the > FreeBSD version There has to BE a FreeBSD version. And the arguments for never creating one are currently compelling due to the emulation. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 9:23:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E0A37BE72 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08430; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:22:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707100722.047c45c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:22:41 -0600 To: Mark Blackman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707161729.A87356@diablo.dircon.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:17 AM 7/7/2000, Mark Blackman wrote: >umm... the alternative (no linux ABI) would mean no Opera whatsoever for >FreeBSD wouldn't it? If a native FreeBSD port can't be justified on market >size arguments at this moment, then I don't see why yanking the ABI is going >to change the relative importance of the "smallish" FreeBSD crowd. The Linux emulator (or ABI, which is really a more appropriate term) creates an incentive not to do a native port NO MATTER HOW LARGE THE MARKET BECOMES. This is what happened with OS/2. >FreeBSD has plenty of unique merits (i.e. killer server) independent of Linux >applications. OS/2 had *no* unique merits independent of its ability to run >windows apps Absolutely untrue. OS/2 was (and is, though it's almost no longer sold) light years ahead of Windows in stability, flexibility, architectural sophistication, and sheer power. >and note that OS/2 is still around if only in maintenance mode. It's darned tough to get a copy. The only folks who are still using it in any major way are Diebold, the ATM company. >There is plenty of enthusiasm for FreeBSD which will keep it users >banging on the doors for native ports. And not getting them. >See Applixware. I'm a huge >fan of Applixware and I'm dying for them to move to 5.0 on FreeBSD. The Applixware port required coaxing and subsidization. And the wonderful folks at Applixware are still grousing about sales volumes on the FreeBSD platform. I'm doing what I can to boost sales for them so that we GET a 5.0! >Any genuine UNIX vendor will create a FreeBSD native port, because >it *should* be easy. Even if it's easy, it's another SKU and more training for the support staff. Software companies will avoid both if there is ANY way to do so, especially on an OS which falls off the bottom of most companies' "short list" of platforms. >Opera is a windows development house and only did Linux for PR reasons. No, Opera is not a "Windows development house;" it's an HTML, Ecmascript, CCS, and XML development house. They're porting to Linux because they perceive demand there, and they are failing to support FreeBSD because of the ABI. I wish this were not so, but it is getting to be a CONSISTENT pattern among software developers: Linux yes, FreeBSD only under Linux emulation. >I'm sure that if you stepped up to the plate and said "I, Brett, will take your >Linux-specific code and turn it into beautiful generic UNIX code", we'd all >thank you for it. Know what? I did. Didn't even get a response. Again, a port will require them to have more more SKUs, more support training, and more support staff. All recurring expenses that can't be counterbalanced by the elimination of one non-recurring expense, especially when they can see a workaround (the ABI) that's trivially easy for them. Look, I'm not here to preach doom and gloom but rather to point out a serious and easily observed problem and offer a solution. The FreeBSD API and ABI must become a portable standard and be ported to Linux, so that the effects of this pheonomenon work FOR FreeBSD rather than against it. It's the only way out of the OS/2 trap. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 9:26:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2277037BF24; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 09:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08485; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 10:26:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707102444.047ab100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:26:09 -0600 To: "Ignacio Cristerna" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Me too! Who out there who is willing to help mount an effort to "invade" the Linux space by doing a FreeBSD ABI (application binary interface) for Linux? --Brett Glass At 07:57 AM 7/7/2000, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: >I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will >always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a >prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just >love it! > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass >Sent: Viernes, 07 de Julio de 2000 01:54 >To: Frank Pawlak; Jordan K. Hubbard >Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : >Windows))) > > >Frank: > >I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long >time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their >developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce >development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux >and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for >the foreseeable future. As with Tripwire, their priorities lie elsewhere, >and FreeBSD is a low priority so long as there is emulation. > >--Brett > >At 12:45 AM 7/7/2000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > >>Aaahhh Brett, >> >>On a recent visit to the Opera web site, under the Linux release link, >>they specifically mention doing a FreeBSD release, but, they are having >>build problems. >> >>"We've attempted to start releasing a FreeBSD version as of this release, >>however, we're experiencing complications with the compile environment as >>well. GCC is working wonderfully, however the ld is generating some >>interesting errors related to templates which aren't quite understandable. >>We'll hopefully have a functional version at the next release. For now, we >>understand that Opera for Linux works well under Linux emulation on the >>BSD platforms." >> >>The above is copied from said page. I fail to find any reference to never >>in the above. >> >>Regards, >>Frank > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 11:51:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB04237B773; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA25120; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:51:23 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:51:22 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Andrew Reiter Cc: lgrajales , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Code Pal VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No. A real low would be 'what does Visual C++ do or Where do I get cracks for Visual Basic'. And damn it, dare anybody not head over to -chat with this thread! On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Andrew Reiter wrote: > > I believe we've all hit a real low aftrer this. > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, lgrajales wrote: > > |> > |> What is a Code Pal for VMS? > |> thnxs. > |> [snip - sigs] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 12:18:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from garm.bart.nl (garm.bart.nl [194.158.170.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9AD37C158; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (lucifer.is.an.elder.of.the.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by garm.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e67JHue15376; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:17:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA80675; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:17:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:16:21 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:40:44AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20000707 12:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 12:27 AM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>Having spoken a few times with Jordan on the PR side of things and also >>on the larger aspects of the Project I can only say Brett that you >>absolutely have an image of Jordan in your mind which is contrary to the >>person I know and met (and others as well). >>Jordan really is working on macro level, and not on micro level. > >Well, as far getting native ports of applications, emulating Linux has >been a macro-level mistake! We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this is essential to the debate you wish to carry. >If this is the sort of "thinking on the macro level" you are talking >about, I hope you will agree that there is a problem here. With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which Linux created. Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). Oracle is working on a native port of their DBMS, Highpoint Tech is kind enough to place a FreeBSD banner on their frontpage of their site. Our userbase continues to flourish. BSD events, such as my local NLFUG meetings, continue to amass more and more likeminded and curious individuals. These are but mere aspects and effects of things which Jordan started on some level, and normal people like myself and many others continues on a smaller scale. We are here, we are demanding our portion of the marketshare, there's no denying us. Now tell me again, how did the linuxulator hurt us again? Companies will always work according to the demand/supply principle, so the userbase needs to, politely, ask Opera to release a _native_ port. We pulled this off with Oracle (IIRC) and we also amassed tons of votes for a native JDK and for more products, and we got them and/or are getting them. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project I think, therefore I am... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 13: 3:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.mich.com (mercury.mich.com [64.79.64.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F4C37C05F; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from will@almanac.yi.org) Received: from argon.gryphonsoft.com (pm011-032.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.82.0]) by mercury.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19135; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:00:11 -0400 Received: by argon.gryphonsoft.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2E2C31997; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 15:58:08 -0400 From: Will Andrews To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000707155808.J10303@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from asmodai@wxs.nl on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:16:21PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:16:21PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to > appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this > is essential to the debate you wish to carry. We could document which Linux syscalls should be changed into what BSD syscalls, to ease the job of porting. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 13: 6: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D095337C3DE for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA27789; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:06:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHMaim2; Fri Jul 7 13:06:03 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14052; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:05:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007072005.NAA14052@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A fortune(6) candidate (was: No port of Opera?) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:05:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: molter@sofia.csl.sri.com (Marco Molteni), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190153.04838520@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Jul 06, 2000 07:30:21 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> This thread is as silly now as it was the first time it came up. > > > >Please, please, put this in the fortune database :-) > > Or should we wait until threads work better? ;-) > > Seriously, though, it appears that certain folks are in denial about > the negative results of emulating another platform, even though they > are being demonstrated again and again. SCO is currently in the proces of marginalizing themselves this way; I think many in the SCO management have realized this, but are unable to stuff the genie back into the bottle. It is probably too late for SCO, at this point. I rather expect that, if they can get the necessary sign-off from people whom they have licensed code from (Microsoft, Veritas, Novell, etc.), that SCO will be Open-Sourcing SVR4 in the not too distant future. Yes, this is a rumor, but I rather trust the source_s_... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 13:24:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871DD37C05F for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:24:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from localhost (scottj@localhost) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20298; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 12:37:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@pebkac.owp.csus.edu To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:12 AM 7/7/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > >I have read this sort of stuff before. I just wanted to check in on > >Jordan's behalf so that he knows there are FreeBSDites who are in favor of > >the emulation. > > As I've said before, the emulation is a useful workaround for some of > them. BUT THEY SHOULD NOT RELY ON IT IN THE LONG RUN! Right now, alas, > the emulation is driving applications vendors away from creating native > ports, which in turn is hurting the platform and increasing reliance > upon the emulator. This is not a good thing. To some degree I agree with what you are saying. Historically emulating/binary compat/etc has not solved the problem of increased use for an OS. Somedays I really do miss OS/2, the only reason I'm not using it now is because I got into FreeBSD :-) In the long run, yes, native apps are the goal, and people are pushing for that (BSDi, users who have purchasing power, etc). That being said however, I'm not sure that I agree with your conclusion above. Let's take the Opera example. If we took away Linux binary compatibility do you think that it would make any difference? My feelings are that if the Opera folks are strapped for resources for a FreeBSD version, they wouldn't suddenly run out and make a FreeBSD version because we can't run it all, the needed additional resources would not suddenly appear, Linux compat or not. I know that you response is that we should be pushing a BSD compatibility layer for other OS's. I think this is a neat idea, and would certainly be neat to see, with the idea that it would help spread the use of BSD. Unfortunately I do not have the skills needed to code such a beast. I believe that most people who do (and have the time) are more interested in working on BSD directly. > >Stallman, GPL, none of that matters to me as I consider > >the usefulness of my OS of choice. > > It should matter to you, because it is the thing that most seriously > threatens your ability to choose in the future. Doesn't this only matter if you are digging into the code or redistributing it? For a normal end user, does this really matter? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big fan of the GPL, but everything needs to be looked at from different perspectives to see where others are coming from (ie end users). > >I am sure I could write a great dissertation on the matter. One fact > >remains, after three years of dire warning FreeBSD still seems to be doing > >quite well. My -questions traffic is twice what it used to be. > > Alas, FreeBSD's market share relative to that of Linux appears to be > going DOWN, not up. And the situation vis-a-vis native ports is > terrible: after three years, FreeBSD has LOST, not gained, native > ports. This is a serious threat to the health of the platform. I've > done what I could to promote the BSDs, and in fact have made some > serious progress in this area (though certain folks -- ahem! -- still > seem reluctant to acknowedge it). But emulation is the greatest thorn > in FreeBSD's side as a platform. Hummmmm. I wonder if this is also a perspective thing. From where I stand (which is a different place you do of course) FreeBSD has been doing much better. I'm not sure to which products you are refering that no longer offer native FreeBSD versions (probably something I don't use I would guess). I know that BSDi is working hard with vendors to encourage,assist,etc native ports. It's my understanding that you worked with O'Reilly to get the BSD track going at the Open Source Con this month. As someone who went last year and is going again this year I think this will be very good exposure for BSD. --- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu The Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 13:45:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7205737BE60 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 13:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2387 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 20:45:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 20:45:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 1527 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 20:45:09 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:15:09 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Joseph Scott Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:37:08PM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Scott said on Jul 7, 2000 at 12:37:08: > > I know that you response is that we should be pushing a BSD > compatibility layer for other OS's. I think this is a neat idea, and > would certainly be neat to see, with the idea that it would help spread > the use of BSD. Unfortunately I do not have the skills needed to code > such a beast. I believe that most people who do (and have the time) are > more interested in working on BSD directly. There's something rather obviously wrong with the BSD-compatibility- for-linux argument, especially combined with your (Brett's) ideas that linux guys will want to screw BSD at the first opportunity. If that is the case (and even if not, actually), you may write a perfect FreeBSD compatibility layer, but how are you going to get the big linux distributions to include it? And if they don't, how does it help anyone or persuade biggies to write for FreeBSD instead of linux? On a related note I saw this interesting article (didn't preserve the link, it may be there on lwn.net or someplace) on how the big linux distributors aren't themselves using a lot of the software they give their public. For instance, they generally ship sendmail as the default (or only) mailer, and wu-ftpd with its hole-of-the-month as default ftp program; but most of them use qmail for email and proftpd for ftp. (Not that proftpd has a much better security record.) There were plenty of other examples, and it focussed especially on the tendency of enabling lots of dangerous and exploitable services by default; the article was worth reading and I hope lots of people at redhat read it. I notice something similar about FreeBSD, though not quite so bad: it ships with sendmail as the only MTA (in 3.x, anyway -- I still haven't looked at 4.x, but hope to do so soon), but the freebsd.org mailserver itself uses postfix. Isn't that a bit inconsistent? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 14:33:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19A337B7F8; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28603; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:31:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhVaa03; Fri Jul 7 14:31:48 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13600; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:32:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007072132.OAA13600@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) To: pwiley@cadabra.com (Preston S. Wiley) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:32:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), dscheidt@enteract.com (David Scheidt), kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Preston S. Wiley" at Jul 06, 2000 07:02:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > All of this would be a waste of effort compared to writing a *BSD* emulator > > that would run on many platforms and get us more native ports. Making a > > better Linux emulator is counterproductive. The better Linux emulation is > > on BSD, the less likely it is that FreeBSD will get native ports of key > > applications. > > Without Linux compatibility, BSD wouldn't have enough of a desktop user > base for a company to even consider a native BSD port. The Linux > compatibility was created to draw in users. (i.e. BSD can do everything > Linux can, including run its binaries, plus this and this and this) > The more users BSD has, the more likely there will be a native BSD port. Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the Linux emulation is broken in the process... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 14:34:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2410D37BE60 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:34:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17659; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:34:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 16:34:42 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Narvi Cc: Andrew Reiter , lgrajales , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Code Pal VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Narvi wrote: : :No. A real low would be 'what does Visual C++ do or Where do I get cracks :for Visual Basic'. : : Is crack enough to explain visual Basic? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 14:35:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D103737BFFA; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22286; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:35:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA5jaOBR; Fri Jul 7 14:35:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13694; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:34:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200007072134.OAA13694@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:34:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi), dann@greycat.com (Dann Lunsford), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Jul 07, 2000 07:44:48 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for > emulation then. > > Well, it works for me anyway. Any release date on the non-alpha, non-beta, version 1.x KDE Office stuff yet? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 14:40: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0634137BE56 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 2640 invoked from network); 7 Jul 2000 21:39:35 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 7 Jul 2000 21:39:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 16179 invoked by uid 211); 7 Jul 2000 21:39:32 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 03:09:32 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708030932.A16030@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000707074448.A4511@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200007072134.OAA13694@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007072134.OAA13694@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:34:55PM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Jul 7, 2000 at 21:34:55: > > I have a better idea. Let's all use opensource software. No need for > > emulation then. > > > > Well, it works for me anyway. > > Any release date on the non-alpha, non-beta, version 1.x > KDE Office stuff yet? Don't know. I use latex. But KDE 2.0 is supposed to ship around September and include KOffice. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 14:46: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from apoq.skynet.be (apoq.skynet.be [195.238.2.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2792037C3AA for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (dialup582.brussels2.skynet.be [195.238.25.70]) by apoq.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380D01F417; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:45:42 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:43:22 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Scott From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:15 AM +0530 2000/7/8, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I notice something similar about FreeBSD, though not quite so bad: it > ships with sendmail as the only MTA (in 3.x, anyway -- I still haven't > looked at 4.x, but hope to do so soon), but the freebsd.org mailserver > itself uses postfix. Isn't that a bit inconsistent? I don't think that this is really an issue of inconsistency. One thing that I believe they are working on for the future is to remove all full-blown MTAs (such as sendmail, postfix, qmail, etc...) from the base system, and to instead ship a program that would be just sufficient to handle the "null client" sort of configuration. Thus, for anyone who wants to run a real MTA, they go to the ports or pull down the source and build it themselves. So, what you see for the mail server for freebsd.org could be considered a sample of where FreeBSD is going in the future, it's just that they've chosen to use postfix as their "real" MTA. That said, there are a lot of improvements coming in sendmail, and there might be a chance in the not-to-distant future when a lot of people might start switching back to it. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 17: 9:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1427537B66A for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA44954; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:09:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olli) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:09:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007080009.CAA44954@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> From: Oliver Fromme To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Option MD5 question X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <8k2626$1jm0$1@atlantis.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Organization: Administration TU Clausthal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.4-19991219-STABLE (i386)) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-chat Alexander Alexeenko wrote: > Where is MD5 option in kernel configuration file. FreeBSD > 4.0-20000619-STABLE. It was removed, because it was a no-op anyway (the kernel always requires the MD5 code). See the commit message for revision 1.749.2.9 of LINT. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18/61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) "In jedem Stück Kohle wartet ein Diamant auf seine Geburt" (Terry Pratchett) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 17:18:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AC75337B5AB for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 25363 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 00:18:47 -0000 Received: from du07.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.7) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 00:18:47 -0000 Message-ID: <39667346.1A97EA35@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:18:14 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Joseph Scott , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > On a related note I saw this interesting article (didn't preserve the > link, it may be there on lwn.net or someplace) on how the big linux > distributors aren't themselves using a lot of the software they give > their public. For instance, they generally ship sendmail as the > default (or only) mailer, and wu-ftpd with its hole-of-the-month as > default ftp program; but most of them use qmail for email and proftpd > for ftp. (Not that proftpd has a much better security record.) There > were plenty of other examples, and it focussed especially on the > tendency of enabling lots of dangerous and exploitable services by > default; the article was worth reading and I hope lots of people at > redhat read it. Is this the link: http://securityportal.com/closet/closet20000705.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 17:32:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38EF37B5AB; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA70643; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:32:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Preston S. Wiley" , Brett Glass , David Scheidt , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) In-Reply-To: <200007072132.OAA13600@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Given this theory, someone should be going balls-to-the-wall > on SCO Xenix and UNIX and Solaris x86 emulations, even if the > Linux emulation is broken in the process... Well, we do have working SVR4 binary compatability, you know. Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 17:38:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (obie.softweyr.com [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE9D037BAF1; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:38:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([208.187.122.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16855; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 18:38:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <39667888.3F79E5E9@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 18:40:40 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 :Windows))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Frank: > > I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long > time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their > developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce > development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux > and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for > the foreseeable future. Which presents absolutely no problems to the user of the software. Your time would be much better spent in encouraging them to test the Linux release on one or more FreeBSD workstations, and/or to advertise it as a Linux/FreeBSD version, than to convince them to undertake another port. FreeBSD doesn't require a Linux emulator, it supports Linux-format ELF binaries, in the same way it supports other binary image formats. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 20:12:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B326B37B634; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:12:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-16.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.16]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0.Beta3/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id e683CZZ29384; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:12:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA26069; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:49:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200007080249.VAA26069@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:44:17 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:49:06 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I was just in communication with the developers of Opera this morning, and > it appears that the presence of Linux emulation in FreeBSD is likely to > cost us a native port of this superior browser and e-mail client. According > to an employee of Opera software, Cutting to the bone thru all the BS this thread has generated I have a simple solution: don't download or buy Opera. And quit bitching about it. I might bother to download StarOffice one day if/when they do a native FreeBSD version. But in the meantime the compatibility issues between StarOffice and the FreeBSD Linux emulation has kept me away and will continue to keep me away until something tilts the balance causing me to *need* StarOffice. They missed the boat back when I didn't need it but would have tried it. As long as Applixware was not FreeBSD native, I stayed away. Backordered the native version shortly after it was announced. Stayed backordered for something like 16 months before it arrived. I waited. WordPerfect 8.0 wasn't a big pain under Linux emulation. I've used it a number of times (while waiting for Applixware) to write nasty letters to the fool CD "club" I'm a member of. Finally won that battle after a year when they finally diverted a human's attention to my account and actually read my letters and examined the photocopies of statements I included. I bought VirtualPC for my Macintosh specifically for the purpose of hosting Microchip's MPLAB development environment for their PIC microcontrollers. MPLAB is freeware. I will not *buy* software to run under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. Did I see a 68k MacPlus emulator in the ports the other day? Hmmm... Maybe I should fire that up and see if Nisus and Eudora for the Mac runs under FreeBSD now.... -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 21:25: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111B537B563; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 62EA11C70; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:24:57 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Brett Glass , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500, Ignacio Cristerna wrote: > I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will > always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a > prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just > love it! We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org 1. "If you don't distribute source, we'll make it so you can't distribute a binary." sounds to me an awful like "If you don't make a FreeBSD port, we'll rip out the emulation layer that allows your software to work." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 21:44: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38E4337BA39 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23212 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 04:44:10 -0000 Received: from du74.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.74) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 04:44:10 -0000 Message-ID: <3966B177.805696E4@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 00:43:35 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, > application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality > commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native > API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native > code. If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will not be using their products with the Linux layer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 7 23:23:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F058537B7FC; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA58661; Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:16:21 +0200." <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 23:23:26 -0700 Message-ID: <58658.963037406@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which > Linux created. > > Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that > FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. > Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and > support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). I think you should stop trying to talk sense to Brett. As we've already seen in this thread, it just doesn't do any good and he only becomes even more strident and less connected to reality as the thread unwinds. Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. At that point, the rest of us would actually have to agree that yes, despite all odds, he'd been right all along and How About That. However, Brett being Brett, he's not going to do that, he's just going to continue to assert the validity of his own unique arguments with no proof and, when nobody comes forward who's willing to implement all this code for him just because he says it's a good idea, he'll let the topic die down again until he feels up to another rant on the topic. I think Pons and Fleishman demonstrated a similar aptitude for good science and demonstrable claims with their Cold Fusion research a decade or so back. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 0:34:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32C937B5B8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15589; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:34:22 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:34:22 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Narvi Cc: Andrew Reiter , lgrajales , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Code Pal VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A friend of mine's making a VB interpreter for TCL/TK... On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Narvi wrote: > > No. A real low would be 'what does Visual C++ do or Where do I get cracks > for Visual Basic'. > > And damn it, dare anybody not head over to -chat with this thread! > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Andrew Reiter wrote: > > > > > I believe we've all hit a real low aftrer this. > > > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, lgrajales wrote: > > > > |> > > |> What is a Code Pal for VMS? > > |> thnxs. > > |> > > [snip - sigs] > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Who is John Galt? Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 0:59:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BF2B37B594 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 00:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 7415 invoked by uid 211); 8 Jul 2000 07:59:18 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:29:17 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Joseph Scott , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708132917.C7374@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <39667346.1A97EA35@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <39667346.1A97EA35@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:18:14PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers said on Jul 7, 2000 at 20:18:14: > > On a related note I saw this interesting article (didn't preserve the > > link, it may be there on lwn.net or someplace) on how the big linux > > distributors aren't themselves using a lot of the software they give > > Is this the link: > > http://securityportal.com/closet/closet20000705.html Yup, that's the one. Incidentally, his comments on telnet being enabled by default also seem to apply to FreeBSD, unless it's changed recently. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 6:42: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3208D37BC46; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 06:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68DfZF05179; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85881; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:57:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:57:26 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Ignacio Cristerna Cc: Brett Glass , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708145726.H35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from ignacioc@avantel.net on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 08:57:59AM -0500 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20000707 20:00], Ignacio Cristerna (ignacioc@avantel.net) wrote: >I, for one, am with Brett on this one. FreeBSD needs native ports or it will >always be a niche product in a niche market. Brett, you said it like a >prophet. I hope you are not one: I don´t want the diablito to die; I just >love it! Then go `pester' Opera with requests for native support. With emphasis on the native part. If you are not going to let yourself be heard outside of freebsd-advocacy, you will never reach what you want. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Joy comes, grief goes, we know not how... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 6:42: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C29C537BE3D; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 06:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68DfcF05182; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85874; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:54:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:53:54 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708145354.G35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707002013.04723960@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 12:37:42AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Brett talking to Jordan] -On [20000707 12:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >That's it. You're setting things up so that they will >NOT develop for FreeBSD; in fact, you're stacking the deck >against it. [snip] >>This is the classic delusional mindset at work. > >I see: Anyone who does not agree with you must of course be >"delusional," even if his model of the world has accurately >predicted events and yours has not. I guess that the earth >is flat and the sun revolves around it, too. Brett, I always believed you were a rational person to talk with, but given your above comments I just have to say this: Go see a mental health specialist. *plonk* -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project I believe because it is impossible... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:34:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E08DB37BEC2; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04305; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:19:47 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 :Windows))) Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39667888.3F79E5E9@softweyr.com> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:40 PM 7/7/2000, Wes Peters wrote: >> I have seen that message too; it has been up on their page for quite a long >> time now. However, I have also been in direct contact with their >> developers, who tell quite a different story. They say that, due to scarce >> development resources, they're focusing their efforts exclusively on Linux >> and expecting FreeBSD users to run the Linux version under emulation for >> the foreseeable future. > >Which presents absolutely no problems to the user of the software. Yes it does. "Defectors" who buy binaries targeted for another platform and run them under emulation will appear on the marketing radar screen as users of that other platform, making their own platform seem to have a smaller user base by comparison. And by eliminating themselves from the set of potential customers for a native port, they reduce the incentive to create one. They're undermining their own platform. Use of an emulator should be reserved for emergencies only. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:34:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD2137BE20; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04294; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707203753.04804100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:09:54 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:16 PM 7/7/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >We are not emulating Linux. We are merely mapping the Linux syscalls to >appropriate BSD ones. Please use the correct terms for that, since this >is essential to the debate you wish to carry. To me, performing that mapping (with thunking in some places!) is what I would consider to be emulation. Granted, it is a "light" form of emulation, since the APIs are close. In any case, the discussion here doesn't hinge on what one calls this facility. I think you'll agree that WHATEVER it's called (call it a Frobnicator if you'd like), the effect on the availability of natively compiled applications is the same. (And whatever you call it, if you tout it as being especially efficient at running Linux binaries, this will make developers MORE likely to tell FreeBSD users to run their Linux versions rather than porting their software.) >With the help of the linuxulator we got it easier to ride the hype which >Linux created. Any "riding of the hype" which has occurred has been, IMHO, utterly independent of the existence of the Frobnicator. The people who I see switching are using FreeBSD as an Internet server and are not, as a rule, running desktop or commercial applications. My clients who run such things as office suites (e.g. Corel Office) are sticking to the OSes for which they are natively compiled so that they can get support. >Now that the hype is reaching its momentum it becomes obvious that >FreeBSD/BSDi is being a major player in the whole ballgame as well. >Have you looked around recently? There's more and more mention and >support for the FreeBSD cause (and indirectly for OpenBSD and NetBSD). I am making an effort to generate those mentions and create that support, and so are others. But FreeBSD is not even really at the status of "second fiddle" yet; it's more like "third viola." >We are here, we are demanding our portion of the marketshare, there's no >denying us. You cannot "demand" market share. Rather, you must offer things of value. And one of the most important things of value -- the thing that has historically proven to make or break a platform -- is native application support. >Now tell me again, how did the linuxulator hurt us again? By encouraging developers to support only Linux. It's Linux on the box; Linux in the ad; Linux on the support line. "Oh, you're running FreeBSD? Sorry, Sir, but the box says 'Linux.' If you're trying to run it on something else, we can't provide you with tech support." >Companies >will always work according to the demand/supply principle, so the >userbase needs to, politely, ask Opera to release a _native_ port. "Asking politely" does not constitute demand. PAYING CUSTOMERS constitute demand. Now, without emulation, those customers have clout equal to their numbers times the price of the product. But with emulation, this clout is diminished by the number of "defectors" who are willing to run the non-native binary. Worse still, the vendor can't tell who bought the product to run it under emulation. So the marketing numbers show sales onto the emulated platform as larger than they should be. And the number of users who want the native port therefore seems smaller. It's a vicious effect: ALL of the incentives run against the native port. >We pulled this off with Oracle (IIRC) and we also amassed tons of votes >for a native JDK and for more products, and we got them and/or are >getting them. Maybe. But will they deliver? And will they support it for more than one version? I am hoping that we can keep Applixware and Xi Graphics. (As you may recall, a representative of Xi Graphics told me emphatically that they were "dropping all support for BSD" about half a year ago. It turned out that she was mistaken and they were dropping BSD/OS only, but it this is still not a good thing -- especially as BSD/OS and FreeBSD move closer together.) Bottom line: the Linuxulator/Frobnicator/Prognosticator/Whatever is hurting the platform. I've proposed a strategy to counter this. Shall we take action? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:34:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9668C37C086; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04298; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211017.04804550@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:13:14 -0600 To: Will Andrews , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000707155808.J10303@argon.gryphonsoft.com> References: <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <54201.962945434@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706225433.0475b4d0@localhost> <20000707082704.Z35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707003817.04760d40@localhost> <20000707211621.C35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:58 PM 7/7/2000, Will Andrews wrote: >We could document which Linux syscalls should be changed into what BSD >syscalls, to ease the job of porting. "Porting kits" are good if they are well supported. A badly supported one can drive vendors away. Microsoft offered a porting kit that allowed Windows apps to be ported to OS/2, but it was so bad that it actually discouraged and delayed ports. (Micrografx did a good one, so Microsoft bludgeoned them into dropping it by threatening to destroy their business. This shows that they thought it was a real threat.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:35: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4A2837C086 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04318; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707212017.047f9f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 02:04:41 -0600 To: Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:37 PM 7/7/2000, Joseph Scott wrote: > To some degree I agree with what you are saying. Historically >emulating/binary compat/etc has not solved the problem of increased use >for an OS. Somedays I really do miss OS/2, the only reason I'm not using >it now is because I got into FreeBSD :-) I used OS/2 as well. And in the end I dropped it because I could not get apps. Heck, mighty, cash-rich IBM couldn't PAY developers to port their work. In most cases, no non-recurring payment was sufficient incentive to get the developers to incur the recurring costs of support, inventory, and continued development for the OS. I know; I talked to the developers. The few that took IBM's money -- Borland was among them -- regretted doing so because the recurring costs swamped the payments they got. > In the long run, yes, native apps are the goal, and people are >pushing for that (BSDi, users who have purchasing power, etc). BSDi doesn't have a perceptible FRACTION of the clout or money that IBM had. And IBM failed. > That being said however, I'm not sure that I agree with your >conclusion above. Let's take the Opera example. If we took away Linux >binary compatibility do you think that it would make any difference? Yes. Then, 100% of the FreeBSD users who wanted to run Opera would be inaccessible to the company unless they did a port. Right now, they are steering users to emulation because they know they can. >My feelings are that if the Opera folks are strapped for resources for a >FreeBSD version, With sufficient incentive, they could make their code portable. Without an incentive, they'll make it Linux-specific. >they wouldn't suddenly run out and make a FreeBSD version >because we can't run it all, the needed additional resources would not >suddenly appear, Linux compat or not. The offer of N more customers, whose money and patronage they would ABSOLUTELY not get otherwise, would have more clout than it does now. I would still like to assemble a few hundred FreeBSD users to ask for a port, though I fear that with emulation that request may be ignored even so. >I know that you response is that we should be pushing a BSD >compatibility layer for other OS's. I think this is a neat idea, and >would certainly be neat to see, with the idea that it would help spread >the use of BSD. Unfortunately I do not have the skills needed to code >such a beast. The skills required to do it are more plentiful than are the ones needed to do the Linux emulation we have now. Why? Because more of us are familiar with the BSD API than the Linux one. More of us have been working with that code, those headers. And it's easy to pull the rest together by using the same hooks which Linux makes available for ITS emulations. (I believe that it does SVR4 and SCO.) Their code will show how to do it. > I believe that most people who do (and have the time) are >more interested in working on BSD directly. The emulation would, in many ways, *be* BSD as it would embody those parts of BSD to which users and programmers are most often exposed. >> It should matter to you, because it is the thing that most seriously >> threatens your ability to choose in the future. > > Doesn't this only matter if you are digging into the code or >redistributing it? For a normal end user, does this really matter? Yep, it does -- for the same reason that Microsoft's predatory tactics matter. Users don't feel the sting right away, but then wake up and find that they have no choice. It could happen here, too. If Linux becomes the only way to run desktop apps, then people will HAVE to abandon BSD. What's more, the GPL threatens the whole software world, not just BSD. The FSF is ever bit as predatory and destructive an empire as Microsoft. In the long run, it stands to be more so, since (unlike Microsoft) it does not care about making sales. It can gut EVERY market; it doesn't have to preserve some of them so that it can make money. It can slash and burn until nothing is left. Heck, do you know that the FSF even gets money from United Way, because it has misrepresented itself to the IRS as a CHARITY? >> Alas, FreeBSD's market share relative to that of Linux appears to be >> going DOWN, not up. And the situation vis-a-vis native ports is >> terrible: after three years, FreeBSD has LOST, not gained, native >> ports. This is a serious threat to the health of the platform. I've >> done what I could to promote the BSDs, and in fact have made some >> serious progress in this area (though certain folks -- ahem! -- still >> seem reluctant to acknowedge it). But emulation is the greatest thorn >> in FreeBSD's side as a platform. > > Hummmmm. I wonder if this is also a perspective thing. From >where I stand (which is a different place you do of course) FreeBSD has >been doing much better. For the moment, the absolute number of users is increasing. But its share is dwindling. And it is ultimately market share that drives both the availability of native ports and the long-term success of a platform. > I'm not sure to which products you are refering >that no longer offer native FreeBSD versions (probably something I don't >use I would guess). I know that BSDi is working hard with vendors to >encourage,assist,etc native ports. BSDi has very little clout. I cheered when they got us Applixware, because that was a real long shot and a big investment for them! But Applixware has plenty of competition, and many FreeBSD users are not supporting the cause and are running other office suites under emulation. So, the emulator threatens the continued availability of Applixware as a native port. > It's my understanding that you worked with O'Reilly to get the BSD >track going at the Open Source Con this month. Yes, I did. And I hear that it's the third most popular track, next to Perl and Linux! Kirk is doing his architecture tutorial, and that will pack 'em in. (Thank you, Kirk!) We even have Theo speaking. (He has thus far declined to sit on the "Future of BSD" panel, but HAS committed to give a talk of his own.) > As someone who went last >year and is going again this year I think this will be very good exposure >for BSD. I am certainly hoping so! More pushing is needed, however. I hope that the BSDi folks will work with me on this. (A few of their employees -- Jordan and Mike in particular -- seem to balk at working closely with me due to minor disagreements and/or my maverick status on these mailing lists. I'm aware that I'm calling for re-examination of previous established strategies and tactics, and that this rocks the boat a bit. However, I hope to convince them that I'm working for the good of the platform and am getting real results, and that therefore this re-examination is worthwhile.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:35:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055A937C3BC for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04311; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:34:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 21:56:51 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:45 PM 7/7/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >There's something rather obviously wrong with the BSD-compatibility- >for-linux argument, especially combined with your (Brett's) ideas that >linux guys will want to screw BSD at the first opportunity. If that >is the case (and even if not, actually), you may write a perfect >FreeBSD compatibility layer, but how are you going to get the big >linux distributions to include it? The same way Sun got Microsoft to include Java. Get a buzz going. Get developers to write for it as a universal API/ABI, so users demand it. Let developers include it on their CDs, so that even if it's not in the distro it is installed with the app. >On a related note I saw this interesting article (didn't preserve the >link, it may be there on lwn.net or someplace) on how the big linux >distributors aren't themselves using a lot of the software they give >their public. That's because the ones they use are often commercial. They don't have the right to redistribute them. They put on the disks what they are allowed to. One thing I wish that FreeBSD did was give you ALL of Sendmail. Right now, you get a precompiled Sendmail, plus a standard sendmail.cf and m4. But you don't get the stuff that's required to use m4 to make a new sendmail.cf with different options! You have to bring in all of sendmail to do that. I'd rather see an all-or-nothing approach. Either give me ALL of Sendmail or leave me with just /bin/mail and a POP client. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:42:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D89A937BFBE for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:42:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 8970 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 16:42:28 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 16:42:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 508 invoked by uid 211); 8 Jul 2000 16:42:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:12:25 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708221225.B491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:56:51PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >On a related note I saw this interesting article (didn't preserve the > >link, it may be there on lwn.net or someplace) on how the big linux > >distributors aren't themselves using a lot of the software they give > >their public. > > That's because the ones they use are often commercial. They don't have > the right to redistribute them. They put on the disks what they are > allowed to. Read the rest of my mail, and the article I cited (link in a later mail). Geez, I wonder why I'm even bothering to write to you. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:43:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5C037B87B; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04424; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:43:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104111.051b45a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:43:35 -0600 To: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <200007080249.VAA26069@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706103005.00e05660@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:49 PM 7/7/2000, David Kelly wrote: >I will not *buy* software to run >under emulation. I would not buy the Linux version of Applixware. I >will not buy a Linux version of WP8. I will not buy a Linux version of >Opera. Considering that Opera will not be on my FreeBSD machines then >its extremely unlikely to be purchased for my Macintosh. Good for you! If more people adopt these practices, we may get native ports. -Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:51:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37ED037B7CD for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9015 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 16:51:47 -0000 Received: from theory8.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.128) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 16:51:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 534 invoked by uid 211); 8 Jul 2000 16:51:45 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:21:45 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708222145.C491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Fri, Jul 07, 2000 at 09:56:51PM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.32 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 7, 2000 at 21:56:51: > > One thing I wish that FreeBSD did was give you ALL of Sendmail. Right > now, you get a precompiled Sendmail, plus a standard sendmail.cf and > m4. But you don't get the stuff that's required to use m4 to make > a new sendmail.cf with different options! You have to bring in all > of sendmail to do that. > > I'd rather see an all-or-nothing approach. Either give me ALL of > Sendmail or leave me with just /bin/mail and a POP client. You mean the contents of /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/ ? (3.x source tree) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:52:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266B637BFBE; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04501; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:52:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:52:13 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola , Ignacio Cristerna From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill, if you really believe that insisting upon native ports is an "FSF-like" tactic, you clearly have no sense of how to do advocacy, nor do you fathom the nastiness of the FSF. --Brett Glass At 10:24 PM 7/7/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: >We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. > >We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you >are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:54:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0EF37C0B8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04518; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:53:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:53:55 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3966B177.805696E4@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:43 PM 7/7/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, >> application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality >> commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native >> API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native >> code. > >If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support >will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will >not be using their products with the Linux layer. Two problems: 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). 2) Whether it is true or not, developers will use it as an excuse not to do a port to another platform. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 9:56:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCF137B5B7; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04548; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:56:12 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <58658.963037406@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 10: 6: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E1C37B5B7 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04631; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:05:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:05:22 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708222145.C491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:51 AM 7/8/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> I'd rather see an all-or-nothing approach. Either give me ALL of >> Sendmail or leave me with just /bin/mail and a POP client. > >You mean the contents of /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/ ? >(3.x source tree) That would be a good start. I'd also want things like the multiple-blacklist patch and some of the Trojan detection stuff. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 10:15:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C499A37B513 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 9099 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 17:15:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 17:15:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 4023 invoked by uid 211); 8 Jul 2000 17:15:33 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:45:33 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708224532.C3990@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <20000708222145.C491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 11:05:22AM -0600 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Jul 8, 2000 at 11:05:22: > At 10:51 AM 7/8/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> I'd rather see an all-or-nothing approach. Either give me ALL of > >> Sendmail or leave me with just /bin/mail and a POP client. > > > >You mean the contents of /usr/src/contrib/sendmail/cf/ ? > >(3.x source tree) > > That would be a good start. It would be a good start? It's there already. > I'd also want things like the > multiple-blacklist patch and some of the Trojan detection > stuff. No opinion. R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 10:51:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0A237B64A; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA41640; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:45:15 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he > >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was > >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going > >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he > >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing > >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. > > Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? > cc:-ing me in this thread has been needless for some time, but iirc, jordan definately had a role in getting aplixware to freebsd.... and this is just one example > --Brett > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 11:16:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450D537B704 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [10.0.1.105]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AD99B35 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:16:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: by bone.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 60AF61DD6; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:16:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:16:36 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: OED CD-ROM Message-ID: <20000708131636.A70914@bone.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Shot in the dark, but I thought perhaps someone here might have some experience with this. Does anyone have the Oxford English Dictionary on CD-ROM? Is it truly dependant on Windows? The description says that it is ``presented in an improved user-friendly environment utilizing a web-browser interface'', but then goes on to list Windows under `system requirements', and there is, in fact, a Windows version and a Macintosh version. Thanks! -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 11:25:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from njord.bart.nl (njord.bart.nl [194.158.170.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5EBA37B704; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [195.38.216.226]) by njord.bart.nl (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e68IPH712159; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA86871; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:25:14 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000708202514.N35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <58658.963037406@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:56:12AM -0600 Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -On [20000708 20:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: > >Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? He did. I am waiting, for quite some time now, to see your accomplishments on this matter. -- Jeroen Ruigrok vd Werven/Asmodai asmodai@[wxs.nl|bart.nl|freebsd.org] Documentation nutter/C-rated Coder BSD: Technical excellence at its best The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Is there a place deep within, a place where you hide your darkest Sins..? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 11:52:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B409337BA2B; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05164; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:52:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708124338.050d4f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:58 -0600 To: Narvi From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:45 AM 7/8/2000, Narvi wrote: >cc:-ing me in this thread has been needless for some time, but iirc, >jordan definately had a role in getting aplixware to freebsd.... I'm sure he did. Alas, such victories are not only hard won and expensive but also precarious. Applixware might not continue support in the future, though I certainly hope they will. To make the case for native FreeBSD development compelling, we need leverage. That's why developing FreeBSD ABI compatibility for Linux (not to mention other OSes!) is important. And this is where I'm asking Jordan to invest some effort in, and support, the development of the portable FreeBSD ABI. If he does not participate and/or discourages it, he will not have the right to claim the idea is invalid, since (after all) he will have effectively prevented it from being tested. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 12: 6:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3177937B704; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05254; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:06:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708130258.04ed94e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:05:54 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708202514.N35215@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> <58658.963037406@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 7/8/2000, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >I am waiting, for quite some time now, to see your accomplishments on >this matter. I gues you're not looking. Besides being singlehandedly responsible for the adoption of FreeBSD by several major corporations, I am behind the development of several new BSD_based products and have established a BSD track at the O'Reilly conference. You can support the latter effort by attending and/or manning a booth for one of the BSDs. (I understand that OpenBSD is looking for people to do booth duty.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 12: 8:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DC137B896 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 12:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05270; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:08:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708130626.04ee0a10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 13:07:56 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000708224532.C3990@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <20000708222145.C491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:15 AM 7/8/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >It would be a good start? It's there already. No, it's not -- unless you install FULL SOURCES, which is a waste of space on most machines. The ability to build .cf files is "standard equipment" for Sendmail and shouldn't require hundreds of megabytes of extra baggage to get! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 13:33: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3C937B532 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27439; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 13:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? As if Jordan's contribution to the cause was lacking. Humph. The FreeBSD ABI was your idea, though I predict it was merely a rhetorical device. You develop it! Whatever, Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 14: 7: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A959C37BDB6 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 12495 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 21:07:05 -0000 Received: from du69.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.69) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 21:07:05 -0000 Message-ID: <396797DA.9D3CAEA7@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:06:34 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:43 PM 7/7/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >Brett Glass wrote: > >> > >> I'm certainly not going to trust a mission-critical, or even important, > >> application to emulation. I want to be able to get high-quality > >> commercial software which has been compiled and tested for the native > >> API and is supported on the platform I'm running. And that means native > >> code. > > > >If that is generally true, then the existence of Linux binary support > >will not deter vendors from porting to FreeBSD, because customers will > >not be using their products with the Linux layer. > > Two problems: > > 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux binary support. > 2) Whether it is true or not, developers will use it as an excuse > not to do a port to another platform. If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development resources. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 14:26:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BE68937BB6F for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 13972 invoked from network); 8 Jul 2000 21:26:45 -0000 Received: from du167.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.167) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 2000 21:26:45 -0000 Message-ID: <39679A9B.59B2E634@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:18:19 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Joseph Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 :Windows))) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707095841.047c6ee0@localhost> <20000708021509.B1136@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707215042.04834b00@localhost> <20000708222145.C491@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708110021.051b6e30@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708130626.04ee0a10@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:15 AM 7/8/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >It would be a good start? It's there already. > > No, it's not -- unless you install FULL SOURCES, > which is a waste of space on most machines. > The ability to build .cf files is "standard > equipment" for Sendmail and shouldn't require > hundreds of megabytes of extra baggage to get! I have to agree with this. Just removing the sendmail sources from the src/contrib distribution, and putting them in their own, would be a big help. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 14:56:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from radius.city-guide.com (radius.cityisp.net [216.2.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8495437B797 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@cityisp.net) Received: from thebomb.city-guide.com (unverified [216.3.179.5]) by radius.city-guide.com (Vircom SMTPRS 4.2.181) with ESMTP id for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:07:40 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:09:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Lynch X-Sender: lynch@thebomb.city-guide.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Opera, Linux Emulation, and the nasties... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes it does. "Defectors" who buy binaries targeted for another platform and > run them under emulation will appear on the marketing radar screen as > users of that other platform, making their own platform seem to have a > smaller user base by comparison. And by eliminating themselves from the > set of potential customers for a native port, they reduce the incentive > to create one. They're undermining their own platform. > > Use of an emulator should be reserved for emergencies only. > I run FreeBSD as my Desktop at home. I run FreeBSD only on Servers at work. I am stuck with NT until my new box comes in, my FreeBSD box was cannabalised during a corporate split( NT admins REALLY are A$$holes, no Joke...unlike overly stressed Unix Admins, hehe) I always try the FreeBSD native port when I want something. I also will try the Linux port, dropping the developers a friendly reminder that their particular product would run better on FreeBSD. I usually end the email with "it's Ok, everyone confuses Linux with FreeBSD." FreeBSD runs better, has a better file system ... we already covered this, so everyone agrees. I also like Linux emulation. I want Real Player 7 to run on my box at home. Remember 5.0? that worked great. FreeBSD has been geared towards servers, and obviously it's nice desktop capabilities are usually not conidered , which I think is the reason you don't have native ports for lots of regularly updated apps. Hell, half of the linux programs I actually have run better on my FreeBSD box than on my Linux one. Linux eats my memory and my swap space quicker than I can yawn thru this thread. : -) If you want to push FreeBSD as a an all around Server/Desktop, then by all means start. I've been successfully running it as a desktop for 2 years and , have noticed that each release it gets easier to setup which ever major desktop you wish to try. ( such as during install... I haven't tried it, I still copy xinit over to my home directory and edit it) So, they want opera and I want real player and media player. If I could write it , I would. But, I can't. I'm not going to jump ship and give up on FreeBSD just because company X can care less what happens to my favorite OS. Hell, I like FreeBSD so much, it steared my towards actually wanting to be a sysdamin. I went out and found a job that centers around it. My bosses also agree that they wouldn't dream of replacing our FreeBSD servers with Linux or Solaris boxes. FreeBSD is a f---ing work-horse. The only bad thing is it is still in it's infancy, in which I mean that not alot of people have heard of it. Other than that, I doubt anyone will defect. If they run from FreeBSD because they can't play games, so what. Later, Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 15:31: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6162837B51A; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06419; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:30:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 16:30:42 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <396797DA.9D3CAEA7@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:06 PM 7/8/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > >> 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). > >If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux >binary support. I should have made myself more clear. It may not be generally true that FreeBSD users will avoid running the Linux binary under emulation. And every one that DOES run the Linux under emulation provides a sixfold reward to the developer for NOT doing the port: a) S/he saved the trouble of creating a new SKU; b) S/he saved the expense of stocking inventory of that SKU; c) S/he saved the non-recurring cost of engineering the port; d) S/he can devote scarce engineering resources to a different port (i.e. to a platform where emulation was not available); d) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with supporting the port; and e) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with marketing the port. >If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some >other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. See the six factors above. >I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support >does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that >the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. I did not say that the absence of such support would cause the ports to be made. One still must conquer what Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson called the "applications barrier to entry." However, without an emulator, market forces would have their chance to work in favor of the port as the installed base increased. Having emulation short-circuits them. >There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development >resources. Indeed; see above. It doesn't sound as if we disagree here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 15:41:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55D137B594; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivea10.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.32]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA08850; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3967ADC5.1DDE73DA@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:40:05 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've stayed out of this, but read the posts for a long time, but now you've said something that undermines your own position. Brett Glass wrote: > Yes it does. "Defectors" who buy binaries targeted for another platform and > run them under emulation will appear on the marketing radar screen as > users of that other platform, making their own platform seem to have a > smaller user base by comparison. So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? > And by eliminating themselves from the > set of potential customers for a native port, they reduce the incentive > to create one. They're undermining their own platform. > Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. > Use of an emulator should be reserved for emergencies only. > > --Brett Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, and continue my line of thinking... Unless of course you're a Linux user, then you should use a FreeBSD "emulator" because Brett Glass, who has FreeBSD in mind and *wants* to decrease the Linux market share, tells you to. Are you even listening yourself? You've managed to contradict yourself so many times that you no longer hold ANY position. And before you go to undermine my credibility, I'll beat you to the punch. I just got out of HS, I'll go to college in the fall, and you know a lot more about FreeBSD, CS, and the business than I do. That said, I still know some logic. I'm curious how you'll talk your way out of this one. I've been reading many FreeBSD lists, and it would seem that if you want a piece of code the way to get it is to find other who want it and then write it. Arguing with people who don't need or want your code is pointless. If you believe in this cause, go write your FreeBSD emulator. Otherwise stop filling my mailbox with nonsense. PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: "I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off several other lists as well for the very same reason. And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." When I read these words I couldn't quite understand what would make *everything* from a single person be the equivalent of commit logs on subjects that don't interest a person. Having read this thread, I think I understand why Brett qualifies for this treatment. Hoping that this is worth a little more than 2 cents, -- Laurence Berland <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition.....But I'd still like wine around. http://stuy.debate.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 17:57:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A02037B710; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07303; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:56:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:56:29 -0600 To: Laurence Berland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3967ADC5.1DDE73DA@confusion.net> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native >support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, >so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? Because they will mistake it for a feature. >Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux >has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine >Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. >Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the >linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or >before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, I have said nothing of the kind. You obviously haven't read my earlier messages, in which I have presented an exit strategy for emulation. >and continue my line of thinking... Which has now completely run off the rails, so what followed [Snip!] is unrelated to what I've said. . Please read what I have written before commenting. >PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: >"I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could >not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off >several other lists as well for the very same reason. > >And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null >by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my >screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand >likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go >the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." Talk about closed-minded! I'm afraid that this shows that PHK -- besides being rude -- may want to filter out any message containing ideas which are thought- provoking or which he does not already believe. Sad, as well as an unwarranted personal attack. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 18: 0: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3C937BA97 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 17:59:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07328; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:59:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708185857.04eda100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 18:59:46 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:44 PM 7/8/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? > >As if Jordan's contribution to the cause was lacking. Humph. > >The FreeBSD ABI was your idea, though I predict it was merely a rhetorical >device. You develop it! As if Jordan developed everything alone.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 18:14:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1004A37BA97 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07429; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 19:14:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708190001.04daef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 19:14:14 -0600 To: Chris Lynch , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Opera, Linux Emulation, and the nasties... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:09 PM 7/8/2000, Chris Lynch wrote: > I run FreeBSD as my Desktop at home. I run FreeBSD only on Servers at >work. >I am stuck with NT until my new box comes in, my FreeBSD box was >cannabalised >during a corporate split( NT admins REALLY are A$$holes, no Joke...unlike >overly stressed Unix Admins, hehe) My sympathies. I have a number of acquaintances who have had similar experiences at work. > I always try the FreeBSD native port when I want something. I also will >try >the Linux port, dropping the developers a friendly reminder that their >particular product would run better on FreeBSD. I usually end the email >with >"it's Ok, everyone confuses Linux with FreeBSD." > FreeBSD runs better, has a better file system ... we already covered >this, so everyone agrees. > I also like Linux emulation. I want Real Player 7 to run on my box at >home. >Remember 5.0? that worked great. I want *native* Real Player 7 and Real Player 8. I think that we could get them, too, if we could appeal to Rob Glaser's dislike of (and battle with) Microsoft. But again, Linux emulation makes it harder to get the port. > FreeBSD has been geared towards servers, and obviously it's nice desktop >capabilities are usually not conidered , which I think is the reason you >don't have native ports for lots of regularly updated apps. Walnut Creek has tried to target it at servers with the slogan "The Power to Serve." Unfortunately, users want to run the same OS -- though perhaps tuned and configured differently -- on client and server, and say so repeatedly. When they see that a platform is targeted solely at one or the other, they become less interested in adopting it. One of the strengths of Linux, from this perspective, is that it is gunning for both. >Hell, half of the linux programs I actually have run better on my FreeBSD >box than on my Linux one. Linux eats my memory and my swap space quicker >than I can yawn thru this thread. : -) Sorry if the thread has been becoming tiresome. Some of the postings addressed to me have made it clear that the posters haven't read what I've already written (or maybe I haven't been clear enough), so I've had to reiterate some points. > If you want to push FreeBSD as a an all around Server/Desktop, then by >all >means start. I've been successfully running it as a desktop for 2 years >and >, have noticed that each release it gets easier to setup which ever major >desktop you wish to try. ( such as during install... I haven't tried it, >I >still copy xinit over to my home directory and edit it) I DO want to push FreeBSD as an all-around OS. Right now, the biggest impediment to doing this is that Jordan Hubbard (still de facto leader of the project) opposes it strongly. And many follow. > So, they want opera and I want real player and media player. If I could >write it , I would. But, I can't. I'm not going to jump ship and give up >on >FreeBSD just because >company X can care less what happens to my favorite OS. Hell, I like >FreeBSD so much, it steared my towards actually wanting to be a sysdamin. >I went out and found a job that centers around it. My bosses also agree >that they wouldn't dream of replacing our FreeBSD servers with Linux or >Solaris boxes. FreeBSD is a f---ing work-horse. The only bad thing is it >is still in it's infancy, in which I mean that not alot of people have >heard of it. Other than that, I doubt anyone will defect. If they run from >FreeBSD because they can't play games, so what. It'll hurt *us*, because (again) we won't get the ports. We need 'em, and I have been suggesting a multi-pronged strategy to get them. Alas, too many people have been responding by denying the need for ports rather than helping to formulate strategies that might help us obtain them. I think that many of them also underestimate the damage that emulation can do to support for a platform. I was intimately involved with trying to get vendors to support OS/2 for many years, so I understand the full impact. And it's pretty devastating. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 18:42:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BB037BDC8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 18:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivea10.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.40.32]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22864; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 21:41:04 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: > > >So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native > >support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, > >so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think > >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform > >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be > >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? > > Because they will mistake it for a feature. At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, and at worst it's an insult to the intelligence of Linux users. Just because they don't prefer the OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is if we can show them real gain through its use. If nothing else, this is a chicken-and-egg problem. They wont want it until they can run FreeBSD apps that dont have linux ports, which wont exist until they use the FreeBSD emulator, which they won't get until the apps exist... > > >Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux > >has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine > >Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. > > They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. Fragmentation is irrelevant, you say using emulation undermines the credibility of the host OS, and Linux users don't want to undermine Linux any more than you want to undermine FreeBSD. Hence, they will not use FreeBSD emulation. If, on the other hand, emulation is useful, then they might use it. I think the linuxulator is pretty useful, but you think it's bad. > > >Let's ignore for a second that you've told us to eliminate the > >linuxulator, leaving us high and dry when that emergency arrives or > >before your prophetic native ports pour forth from the sky, > > I have said nothing of the kind. You obviously haven't read my earlier > messages, in which I have presented an exit strategy for emulation. The closest reference to an exit strategy I could find in any of your posts is " 3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good." which seems to be utopian. Further, it implies that there will never be a situation where such emulation is useful, in an emergency. I doubt there are tons of people using the SVR4 emulation, but it's kept because it can prove useful for emergerncies or with legacy software. Further, using your own theories, we would have to eliminate the linuxulator or there'd still be no reason to make bsd native ports instead of linux ones. Given the larger user base linux has, a developer would probably still develop natively for linux, as it allows more ppl to use the software *without* an added package. Simply creating a FreeBSD emulator would not be sufficient. The only way we'll get native ports from people who simply cant find the resources to do both linux and bsd ports would be to have a larger user base than linux. I'd love for that to happen, but it's gonna take time, and we can't force it to occur prematurely by *eliminating* a useful feature. > > >and continue my line of thinking... > > Which has now completely run off the rails, so what followed [Snip!] > is unrelated to what I've said. . Please read what I have written > before commenting. > I've gone back and read the portion of my email that you've snipped out, and I don't see what about it is unrelated. If you can provide a motive for linux users to prefer freebsd emulated software to native ports, other than "Brett Glass says so" and "they'll think it's a feature," I'm all ears. > >PHK wrote, in an email a bit back: > >"I un-subscribed from -hackers several years ago, because I could > >not keep up with the email load. Since then I have dropped off > >several other lists as well for the very same reason. > > > >And I still get a lot of email. A lot of it gets routed to /dev/null > >by filters: People like Brett Glass will never make it onto my > >screen, commits to documents in languages I don't understand > >likewise, commits to ports as such. All these things and more go > >the winter way without me ever even knowing about it." > > Talk about closed-minded! > > I'm afraid that this shows that PHK -- besides being rude -- may > want to filter out any message containing ideas which are thought- > provoking or which he does not already believe. Sad, as well as > an unwarranted personal attack. > > --Brett While I'm not sure which of your previous tirades caused PHK to black hole you, I think that this thread might be as good a reason as any. Most of your emails return to insulting the "close minded nature" of people who disagree with you. Your answer to Jordan's reasoned emails include some logical leaps, and professions of his "delusional" nature. If you might answer things logically, and back up counterlogical assertions with some sort of warrant, then you might be able to have a real conversation. The fact that you appear to be unable to act in a civilized manner is why you find yourself in the alienated position you do. And I will repeat my earlier statement. "If you believe in this cause, go write your FreeBSD emulator. Otherwise stop filling my mailbox with nonsense." I've said about all I have to say, so unless your reply to this makes some real claims and discusses the issues, I'm done writing on this thread. -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 20:58:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9609337BF73; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 20:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14501; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:26:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:26:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Laurence Berland Cc: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 8 July 2000 at 21:41:04 -0400, Laurence Berland wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: >> At 04:40 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >> >>> So we must not let this happen to FreeBSD, we must have native >>> support!!! How do we get this? We implement the FreeBSD api on Linux, >>> so that people will write to FreeBSD instead. Great! But, let's think >>> for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >>> of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >>> fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? >> >> Because they will mistake it for a feature. > > At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, and at worst it's an insult > to the intelligence of Linux users. Just because they don't prefer the > OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see > this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is > if we can show them real gain through its use. If nothing else, this is > a chicken-and-egg problem. They wont want it until they can run FreeBSD > apps that dont have linux ports, which wont exist until they use the > FreeBSD emulator, which they won't get until the apps exist... > >>> Which of course we know every Linux user wants to do. The cry of Linux >>> has always been "down with MS, up with FSF, and undermine >>> Linux!!!"...Oh, wait, they *don't* want to undermine themselves. >> >> They are much more fragmented than the FreeBSD community can be. > > Fragmentation is irrelevant, you say using emulation undermines the > credibility of the host OS, and Linux users don't want to undermine > Linux any more than you want to undermine FreeBSD. Hence, they will not > use FreeBSD emulation. If, on the other hand, emulation is useful, then > they might use it. I think the linuxulator is pretty useful, but you > think it's bad. Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 22:17: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3C637B566; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:16:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08641; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:16:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708230835.04f8e930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:16:30 -0600 To: Laurence Berland From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: Wes Peters , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> References: <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:41 PM 7/8/2000, Laurence Berland wrote: >> >for a second. If it's bad to use emulators, if it hurts your platform >> >of choice, then why on earth do you think that a Linux user would be >> >fooled into using FreeBSD emulation? >> >> Because they will mistake it for a feature. > >At a bare minimum that's a naive assumption, Why? It appears that many FreeBSD users have. >and at worst it's an insult to the intelligence of Linux users. If so, then you must believe FreeBSD users not to be intelligent. > Just because they don't prefer the >OS that you and I prefer doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to see >this as what it is. The only reason they would adopt this emulation is >if we can show them real gain through its use. Again, you miss the point. It is developers who will see great advantage in using the emulation and are likely to adopt it. >Fragmentation is irrelevant, It is very relevant. A common API and a common ABI are a solution to the fragmentation problems which are beginning to plague the plethora of Linux distributions. >The closest reference to an exit strategy I could find in any of your >posts is " >3) Once the FreeBSD API is established as a general-purpose API for >UNIX-like OSes, drop the Linux emulation for good." which seems to be >utopian. It is not utopian at all. Developers WANT a single ABI and API so that they can limit the number of binaries they have to build and the number of SKUs they must carry. They will rally around this. The rest of your message is an insulting ad hominem attack and not worthy of a reply. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 22:22: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7980137B6F5; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:22:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08677; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:21:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:21:41 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:56 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your >arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more >interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. Sorry, Greg, but I don't "put down" "Linux people." I am strident in my criticism of the FSF because (as I think you will agree) it deserves it. The FSF is an unethical attempt at empire building -- a vindictive and destructive political agenda masquerading as a "charity." Linux, qua Linux, is not a bad thing. However, because it furthers the FSF's destructive agenda it is important that it not dominate. >Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? Which ones? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 22:26:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876D537B6EB; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@wantadilla.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA15185; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:56:18 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:56:18 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Message-ID: <20000709145618.D14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 8 July 2000 at 23:21:41 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:56 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Brett, it's been a while since I've bothered to counter your >> arguments, but it occurred to me that other people might be more >> interested, particularly the Linux people you continually put down. > > Sorry, Greg, but I don't "put down" "Linux people." I am strident > in my criticism of the FSF because (as I think you will agree) > it deserves it. I wonder why you would think that. > The FSF is an unethical attempt at empire building -- a vindictive > and destructive political agenda masquerading as a "charity." As you say. > Linux, qua Linux, is not a bad thing. However, because it furthers > the FSF's destructive agenda it is important that it not dominate. > >> Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? > > Which ones? Sorry, I thought you claimed to have some. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 22:33:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5ED937BC01; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08739; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:33:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708233041.049d1e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:33:22 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: You've lost it (was Re:No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD :Linux) :: (OS/2:Windows)))) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709145618.D14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <54397.962948030@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707211520.00d4a5d0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708184514.04dbd220@localhost> <3967D830.F8F0E918@confusion.net> <20000709132641.A14455@wantadilla.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708231703.04f8da10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:26 PM 7/8/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> Have you thought of putting your arguments up on a web site somewhere? >> >> Which ones? > >Sorry, I thought you claimed to have some. Thanks much. Are you being obtuse, or did you intentionally misconstrue what I said? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:18: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail1.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF37737BA98 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:17:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tms2@mail.ptd.net) Received: (qmail 23059 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2000 06:17:57 -0000 Received: from du37.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.37) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 9 Jul 2000 06:17:57 -0000 Message-ID: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 02:17:22 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:06 PM 7/8/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > > >> 1) It may not be generally true (though IMHO it should be). > > > >If it's not generally true, then it's not an argument against Linux > >binary support. > > I should have made myself more clear. It may not be generally true > that FreeBSD users will avoid running the Linux binary under > emulation. And every one that DOES run the Linux under emulation > provides a sixfold reward to the developer for NOT doing the port: > > a) S/he saved the trouble of creating a new SKU; > b) S/he saved the expense of stocking inventory of that SKU; > c) S/he saved the non-recurring cost of engineering the port; > d) S/he can devote scarce engineering resources to a different port > (i.e. to a platform where emulation was not available); > d) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with supporting the port; > > and > > e) S/he saved the recurring costs associated with marketing the port. > > >If it's being used as an excuse, then developers will just find some > >other way to rationalize not porting to FreeBSD. > > See the six factors above. So the absence of Linux binary support will not necessarily mean more native ports, and will mean that programs that don't have native ports will not run. Which means fewer applications for FreeBSD. Which means fewer users for FreeBSD. Which means fewer native ports for FreeBSD. ... > >I think the main flaw in your argument is that even if Linux support > >does provide a reason not to port to FreeBSD, it does not follow that > >the absence of such support will cause those missing ports to be made. > > I did not say that the absence of such support would cause the ports > to be made. One still must conquer what Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson > called the "applications barrier to entry." However, without an > emulator, market forces would have their chance to work in favor of > the port as the installed base increased. Having emulation > short-circuits them. But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to produce native ports. In a previous post you gave two reasons for considering Linux versions unsuitable: 1) lack of support, and 2) lack of performance/quality. 1) If a vendor can't or won't provide resources to support Linux versions on FreeBSD, it almost certainly can't or won't provide the much greater resources to produce a native FreeBSD port. 2) If a particular Linux binary doesn't run well enough on FreeBSD, then the vendor's decision to make a native port will be the same regardless of the existence of Linux binary support. If the binary does run well enough, it doesn't really matter that it is not native; it gets the job done. Of course a native version would be nice, but it would not be necessary. > >There are too many other factors at work, such as limited development > >resources. > > Indeed; see above. It doesn't sound as if we disagree here. We draw very different conclusions from the same facts. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:22: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B74437B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA64325; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:56:12 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105432.051bd5f0@localhost> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:22:14 -0700 Message-ID: <64322.963123734@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:23 AM 7/8/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Now, of course, if he wanted to actually convince anyone that he > >wasn't just smoking crack and this whole "FreeBSD API for Linux" was > >the way to go (since even Brett is able to see that ISVs aren't going > >to just drop support for Linux and Go FreeBSD because he says so), he > >would BACK UP HIS ASSERTIONS THROUGH DEMONSTRATION by implementing > >said code and then achieving significant ISV buy-in with it. > > Care to put some effort where your mouth is, Jordan? Give me a break, Brett - this isn't my crusade to prove a point, its yours and thus up to YOU to put the effort into it. Your mouth is the one in sore need of currency here, not mine, and if you want to establish any credibility here at all, you'll stop shooting it off and start actually doing everything I noted above. Stop dissembling and get off your ass. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:25:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.osd.bsdi.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E0337BB72; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA64381; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.osd.bsdi.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:58 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000708124338.050d4f00@localhost> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 23:26:16 -0700 Message-ID: <64378.963123976@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > To make the case for native FreeBSD development compelling, we > need leverage. That's why developing FreeBSD ABI compatibility > for Linux (not to mention other OSes!) is important. And this > is where I'm asking Jordan to invest some effort in, and support, > the development of the portable FreeBSD ABI. I have no idea why you're asking me to do it - I don't even agree with your fundamental premises and find your whole "logic" here to be a house of cards. If you want effort and support to go into this, you can do it YOURSELF! How's that for a new concept? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:27:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFEE37B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@jade.chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id C7C921C6C; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 02:27:33 -0400 From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Message-ID: <20000709022733.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:52:13AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 08, 2000 at 10:52:13AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Bill, if you really believe that insisting upon native ports > is an "FSF-like" tactic, you clearly have no sense of how to > do advocacy, nor do you fathom the nastiness of the FSF. % Insist \In*sist"\, v. i. % 1. To stand or rest; to find support; -- with in, on, or % upon. [R.] --Ray. % 2. To take a stand and refuse to give way; to hold to % something firmly or determinedly; to be persistent, % urgent, or pressing; to persist in demanding; -- followed % by on, upon, or that; as, he insisted on these conditions; 3. To rip out existing support in the hopes that by pissing of existing users and break working support you will get want you want. See: sulk > At 10:24 PM 7/7/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > >We'd all like more native ports, no-one disagrees with that. > > > >We just see different ways of getting them. Please don't say you > >are "with Brett" unless you agree with his FSF-like tactics[1] as well. Brett, Thanks for not quoting the part of the message that makes my comment clearer. Because my mail archives and mailer still work, I'll provide it: > > "If you don't distribute source, we'll make it so you > > can't distribute a binary." > > sounds to me an awful like > > "If you don't make a FreeBSD port, we'll rip out the emulation > > layer that allows your software to work." I called the _tactics_ FSF-like, not the _goal_. If you spent half of your time actually doing work, providing code, writing documentation, sending patches, or just about anything other then calling for nuclear war against vendors, that would leave only half your time to be spent making an ass of yourself. -- Bill Fumerola - Network Architect / Computer Horizons Corp - CHIMES e-mail: billf@chimesnet.com / billf@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:31:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (ftp.webmaster.com [209.10.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9062437B549; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:30:46 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , "Brett Glass" Cc: , Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:31:10 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to > produce native ports. > In a previous post you gave two reasons for considering Linux versions > unsuitable: 1) lack of support, and 2) lack of performance/quality. > 1) If a vendor can't or won't provide resources to support Linux > versions on FreeBSD, it almost certainly can't or won't provide the much > greater resources to produce a native FreeBSD port. The really depends upon the resources/reward ratio. In many cases, it's a lot easier to make a FreeBSD native version than try to get everything to work right under emulation. The support headaches are approximately the same either way, at least in my experience. If you're going to officially endorse the use of your Linux build under FreeBSD, you're going to have to support it. > 2) If a particular Linux binary doesn't run well enough on FreeBSD, then > the vendor's decision to make a native port will be the same regardless > of the existence of Linux binary support. If the binary does run well > enough, it doesn't really matter that it is not native; it gets the job > done. Of course a native version would be nice, but it would not be > necessary. What would happen in that case is that the vendor would be in a troubling situation. They'd either have to rescind FreeBSD support (and then refund money to FreeBSD customers and remove a platform from their support list) or make a native build. I know that if my company were faced with that problem, we'd make a native build in a second. (Of course, we already have one, but that's not the point.) The existence of Linux emulation simply gives application developers another way to support BSD. They will pick the one they think is better, based upon considerations of effort required and reward expected to be derived. If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux version on FreeBSD, then that will provide a great stepping stone for getting to real FreeBSD support. Later, with a proven customer base and demonstrated interest, a business case can be made for improving FreeBSD support. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:33:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8180737BFD8; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09071; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709002932.04980100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:33:21 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000706190244.0483ad70@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706201218.04a99100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000706222258.046d9c00@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708105237.0448ca90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708162010.050e5da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:17 AM 7/9/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >So the absence of Linux binary support will not necessarily mean more >native ports, and will mean that programs that don't have native ports >will not run. Which means fewer applications for FreeBSD. Which means >fewer users for FreeBSD. Which means fewer native ports for FreeBSD. >... Again, you appear to be intentionally misconstruing or ignoring what I've said in earlier messages. I'm afraid that I can't take the time to educate you about strategies and tactics if you simply can't (or won't) get it. >But these market forces will probably still not be strong enough to >produce native ports. Yet again you ignore what I've written. If developers see a common API and ABI which lets them develop for all of the many Linux distros AND FreeBSD, they will jump at the chance to use it. The rest of your message makes the same mistakes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:43:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574D937C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09118; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:43:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004010.049fbe90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:43:00 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Narvi , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <64378.963123976@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:26 AM 7/9/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I have no idea why you're asking me to do it - I don't even agree with >your fundamental premises and find your whole "logic" here to be a >house of cards. If you want effort and support to go into this, you >can do it YOURSELF! How's that for a new concept? Yes, Jordan, it *is* a new concept -- and an ill-advised one. FreeBSD is a team effort, and this should be as well. So far, one person has volunteered help, but more are needed. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:43:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0770037C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09113; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:43:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709003340.049d0930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:40:03 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Narvi , Dann Lunsford , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <64322.963123734@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:22 AM 7/9/2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Give me a break, Brett - this isn't my crusade to prove a point, No; it appears to be your crusade to quash some valuable insights. >its >yours and thus up to YOU to put the effort into it. Your mouth is the >one in sore need of currency here, not mine, My predictions have been accurate in the past and are being fulfilled here as well. And my efforts to date in the BSD world have been quite effective. Therefore, I daresay I have quite a bit of currency. Why are you attempting to undermine it? > and if you want to >establish any credibility here at all, you'll stop shooting it off and >start actually doing everything I noted above. Stop dissembling and >get off your ass. Er, Jordan, *now* who's advocating being Quixotic? Such an effort requires a team, as I can't exactly afford to quit putting food on the table in order to do it alone. By arguing against the concept you are discouraging people from joining that effort and are thus sabotaging it and making it infeasible to undertake. Again, it appears that you are trying to undermine my heretofore succesful fforts to promote the BSDs. Why? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:47: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032F437C13F; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09153; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:46:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004316.04a02220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:46:40 -0600 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: No port of Opera? (Was: ((FreeBSD : Linux) :: (OS/2 : Windows))) Cc: Ignacio Cristerna , Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20000709022733.J4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000707004910.046d9ab0@localhost> <20000708002457.F4034@jade.chc-chimes.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20000708104548.051b8100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:27 AM 7/9/2000, Bill Fumerola wrote: > 3. To rip out existing support in the hopes that by pissing > of existing users and break working support you will > get want you want. See: sulk How about: 4. To make existing support for a strategically ill-advised feature unnecessary so that it can be phased out. See: win >Thanks for not quoting the part of the message that makes my comment >clearer. I did you the courtesy of not quoting the part of your message which was a misrepresentation of what I said and served no other purpose than to be insulting and misleading. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 8 23:49: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F43A37C0DF; Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:48:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09168; Sun, 9 Jul 2000 00:48:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000709004740.049f9740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 00:48:46 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Emulation (Was: No port of Opera?) Cc: , In-Reply-To: References: <396818F2.51CF061C@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:31 AM 7/9/2000, David Schwartz wrote: > If it's in fact easier to officially support the Linux version on FreeBSD, >then that will provide a great stepping stone for getting to real FreeBSD >support. Later, with a proven customer base and demonstrated interest, a >business case can be made for improving FreeBSD support. Unfortunately, David, they won't know which users are running FreeBSD, and therefore will not be able to quantify that customer base. It is therefore unlikely that their marketers will be able to make a case for the native port. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message