From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 7:13:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smart.visp-europe.psi.com (smart.visp-europe.psi.com [212.222.105.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B978137B7A6 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 07:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jnickelsen@acm.org) Received: from ip75.berlin63.pub-ip.de.psi.net ([154.15.63.75] helo=goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de) by smart.visp-europe.psi.com with esmtp (Exim 3.14 #1) id 13NyVy-0000o2-00; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:13:27 +0200 Received: by goting.jn.berlin.snafu.de (Postfix, from userid 100) id EE4BD226C; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:13:09 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Non-standard internal addressing References: From: Juergen Nickelsen Date: 13 Aug 2000 16:13:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "Canyonlands" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Surprise, surprise -- our new largest customer couldn't > > access any of our protected servers. > > Sorry to slide sidewise into this discussion. > > Do you mean to tell me that one private network that was connected > to the real internet could not talk to another private network > that was connected to the real internet? > > I was kind of taken back on this. Doesn't NAT handle all the BS in > between no matter what? I am curious to know the caveats here if > you can spare the time. I understand that David meant that his employer used the same addresses on the internal (of the NAT) network as the customer on the Internet. The outside addresses are (usually) not changed by the NAT, so it is impossible for the customer to reach the other's internal network. Of course there are several ways to get around this, even if you don't want to change the addresses on the internal network, like putting the server into a border network with real addresses etc. -- Juergen Nickelsen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 7:47:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7445D37B6E5 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 07:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 87712 invoked from network); 13 Aug 2000 14:47:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 13 Aug 2000 14:47:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 4418 invoked by uid 211); 13 Aug 2000 14:47:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:17:19 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: hacker v/s cracker Message-ID: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What is the freebsd policy on using the word "hacker"? Most old world "hackers" seem to prefer the term "cracker" for people who break into systems. FreeBSD has a -hackers list which is obviously not for vandals, but the security section of the handbook also refers to people who break in as "hackers". Is that appropriate? (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/security-intro.html) Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 9:48: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AB537B643 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7DGlcn25536; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:47:38 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hacker v/s cracker Message-ID: <20000813094737.I4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:17:19PM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Rahul Siddharthan [000813 07:48] wrote: > What is the freebsd policy on using the word "hacker"? Most > old world "hackers" seem to prefer the term "cracker" for > people who break into systems. FreeBSD has a -hackers list > which is obviously not for vandals, but the security > section of the handbook also refers to people who break in > as "hackers". Is that appropriate? > (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/security-intro.html) The whole 'cracker' thing is lame, there are two kinds of hackers, ones that make terrific software and others that have the ability to access information and resources that they shouldn't be able to. The only time the word 'cracker' is appropriate is when discusing someone who cracks either software protection or crypto systems. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 10:18:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A1437B57C; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13O0gN-000NIy-00; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:32:19 +0100 Received: (from ben) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.15 #1) id 13O0gN-0001fA-00; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:32:19 +0100 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:32:19 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: hacker v/s cracker Message-ID: <20000813173219.X48327@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved -chat => -doc for this bit of the thread ] Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > What is the freebsd policy on using the word "hacker"? Most old world > "hackers" seem to prefer the term "cracker" for people who break > into systems. FreeBSD has a -hackers list which is obviously not > for vandals, but the security section of the handbook also refers to > people who break in as "hackers". Is that appropriate? It certainly isn't. I'll change that to "attackers" unless anyone objects, since that's used a lot elsewhere in the security section and in the security(7) man page. "Intruder" is also user a lot, but I think "attacker" sounds more appropriate. -- Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 10:19:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C6E37B57C for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from parish.my.domain ([62.253.89.50]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20000813171942.ETQ16423.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@parish.my.domain>; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:19:42 +0100 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02436; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:19:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:19:38 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hacker v/s cracker Message-ID: <20000813181938.H254@parish> References: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20000813201719.A4355@physics.iisc.ernet.in>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:17:19PM +0530 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Aug 13, 2000 at 08:17:19PM +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > What is the freebsd policy on using the word "hacker"? Most > old world "hackers" seem to prefer the term "cracker" for > people who break into systems. FreeBSD has a -hackers list > which is obviously not for vandals, but the security > section of the handbook also refers to people who break in > as "hackers". Is that appropriate? > (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/security-intro.html) > According to the Jargon File: http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/h/hacker.html hacker: n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]... ....8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence `password hacker', `network hacker'. The correct term for this sense is cracker. http://www.science.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/c/cracker.html cracker: n. One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985... ....though crackers often like to describe _themselves_ as hackers, most true hackers consider them a separate and lower form of life. > Rahul. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Aug 13 22:33:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E0EE37C1B7 for ; Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA50819 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:33:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:33:46 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD suitable laptop Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I need a laptop, preferably one that comes out of the box ready to run FreeBSD. I'm willing to swap PC cards if I have to, but since my time fram is really tight, I'd prefer one that came with supported hardware. Any suggestions? I've never done a mobile FreeBSD box before, so I am pretty clueless about what sort of hardware is supported. Thanks, David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 14 11: 9:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8A937C31B for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13709; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:08:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814120649.04a3b240@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:08:44 -0600 To: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD suitable laptop In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Dell Inspirons seem to work pretty well. You'll need to get the OSS driver from 4front to get the sound going, though. Also, the default IRQs used by /stand/sysinstall for PCMCIA conflict with existing devices, so setup is a little tricky but not too bad. --Brett At 11:33 PM 8/13/2000, David Scheidt wrote: >I need a laptop, preferably one that comes out of the box ready to run >FreeBSD. I'm willing to swap PC cards if I have to, but since my time fram >is really tight, I'd prefer one that came with supported hardware. Any >suggestions? I've never done a mobile FreeBSD box before, so I am pretty >clueless about what sort of hardware is supported. > > >Thanks, > >David > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 14 13:16:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A7EF37BEC2 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13799; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20000814161556.A3172@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:15:56 -0400 From: Christopher Masto To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? References: <200008110516.BAA10534@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:59:06AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Aug 11, 2000 at 09:59:06AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > But a simple adaptec card and vinum is 200 bucks. Greg's site (IIRC) pokes > some wholes in the notion that a card is faster than software. That may be true, but after Vinum made my life a living hell, I have given up on the idea of software RAID in general. I'd rather have a dedicated piece of hardware. (Vinum may be a very excellent piece of software now - it was a long time ago when it destroyed my database, and I'm sure there has been a lot of work done on it. I've just gone off the idea in principle.) -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 14 16:55: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A663A37B742 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mail.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.247]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA40014; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <39987136.497F5CBD@owp.csus.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 15:22:46 -0700 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD suitable laptop References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814120649.04a3b240@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > The Dell Inspirons seem to work pretty well. You'll need to get the OSS > driver from 4front to get the sound going, though. Also, the default IRQs > used by /stand/sysinstall for PCMCIA conflict with existing devices, so > setup is a little tricky but not too bad. The sound thing is no longer correct. I've got an Inspiron 7500 (with the Maestro-2E chipset for sound) that now has working sound. I've tested drivers from a couple folks who have been working on them. They aren't in the base system, but I've posted a few messages to -mobile about it. > > --Brett > > At 11:33 PM 8/13/2000, David Scheidt wrote: > > >I need a laptop, preferably one that comes out of the box ready to run > >FreeBSD. I'm willing to swap PC cards if I have to, but since my time fram > >is really tight, I'd prefer one that came with supported hardware. Any > >suggestions? I've never done a mobile FreeBSD box before, so I am pretty > >clueless about what sort of hardware is supported. > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >David -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 14 17: 9: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.kazrak.com (adsl-209-233-16-235.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [209.233.16.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3306E37B5A3 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad@kazrak.com) Received: by pegasus.kazrak.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id AA54D1C6; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:08:58 -0700 From: Brad Jones To: Joseph Scott Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD suitable laptop Message-ID: <20000814170858.A99213@pegasus.kazrak.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814120649.04a3b240@localhost> <39987136.497F5CBD@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <39987136.497F5CBD@owp.csus.edu>; from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu on Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 03:22:46PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 03:22:46PM -0700, Joseph Scott wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > The Dell Inspirons seem to work pretty well. You'll need to get the OSS > > driver from 4front to get the sound going, though. Also, the default IRQs > > used by /stand/sysinstall for PCMCIA conflict with existing devices, so > > setup is a little tricky but not too bad. > > The sound thing is no longer correct. I've got an Inspiron 7500 > (with the Maestro-2E chipset for sound) that now has working sound. > I've tested drivers from a couple folks who have been working on > them. They aren't in the base system, but I've posted a few messages > to -mobile about it. That depends on the Inspiron, actually. I have an Inspiron 3800, and not even OSS can get me a driver for the Maestro-3P in it, apparently. (At least, the list at opensound.com says the Maestro driver is Linux-only.) Apparently, ESS has been less willing to provide the programming details on the 3P. (Other than that, it works great, though. Didn't have the installation problems Brett mentions, either, although I didn't try doing an FTP installation.) BJ -- Brad Jones -- brad@kazrak.com "Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy." -- Joseph Campbell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Aug 14 19:28:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734BB37B86E for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18235; Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814202738.04a37eb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:28:19 -0600 To: Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD suitable laptop Cc: David Scheidt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <39987136.497F5CBD@owp.csus.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000814120649.04a3b240@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:22 PM 8/14/2000, Joseph Scott wrote: > The sound thing is no longer correct. I've got an Inspiron 7500 >(with the Maestro-2E chipset for sound) that now has working sound. That would be good news! Where are drivers available? Do they honor the volume up/down buttons on the side of the unit? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 0: 5: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.babug.org (agora.babug.org [205.166.121.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBA237B78E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.babug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.babug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA68756 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200008150705.AAA68756@agora.babug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 1: 9:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E1137B91E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 01:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Received: from cesar ([10.0.0.12]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA04831; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:00:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200008150800.EAA04831@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Christopher Masto" Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:17:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <20000814161556.A3172@netmonger.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:15:56 -0400, Christopher Masto wrote: >That may be true, but after Vinum made my life a living hell, I have >given up on the idea of software RAID in general. I'd rather have a >dedicated piece of hardware. I totally agree. I only tried Vinum once and did not loose any data (test system) but it was frustrating. The cost of a 3ware is low enough that I would only consider Vinum if I read that it has become idiot proof to install it. I also expect SCSI raid controllers to start coming down in price to compete with the IDE RAID systems coming out in the market. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 4: 9:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6273337BBAA for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 04:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blk@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup491.brussels.skynet.be [195.238.20.235]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B86180AD; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:09:38 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200008150800.EAA04831@sanson.reyes.somos.net> References: <200008150800.EAA04831@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:01:17 +0200 To: "Francisco Reyes" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Christopher Masto" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:17 AM -0400 2000/8/15, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I totally agree. I only tried Vinum once and did not loose any > data (test system) but it was frustrating. > > The cost of a 3ware is low enough that I would only consider > Vinum if I read that it has become idiot proof to install it. Vinum striping and mirroring are pretty bulletproof in operation. The configuration of vinum still leaves something to be desired, but once you've got it configured, it just plain works. I'm doing vinum striping on our anonymous ftp servers (where I'm pulling out a DPT SmartRAID V hardware RAID controller, because the drivers for it have gotten difficult enough to apply to more recent versions of our OS that the machine is no longer reliable enough), our news peering server, our news spool server, and I'll almost certainly make use of it elsewhere as well. However, I'm still not comfortable enough with vinum RAID-5 to use it in production. > I also expect SCSI raid controllers to start coming down in > price to compete with the IDE RAID systems coming out in the > market. I'm sure they will, at least some. However, I think that the IDE RAID controllers will continue to inhabit a lower-cost/lower-performance niche than SCSI RAID controllers, and where many manufacturers of the latter are going to continue to focus their attention is on the high-end, where absolute maximum performance and reliability are still worth a very high premium. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 6:33:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0997A37B8DE for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Ogqn-000Kkz-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:33:53 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA38081; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:33:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:33:52 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Jason Evans Cc: Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000815143351.B37927@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <388F3254.CF5F1C41@softweyr.com> <388F7DDD.EFB73428@softweyr.com> <20000126151556.E73462@sturm.canonware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000126151556.E73462@sturm.canonware.com>; from jasone@canonware.com on Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:15:56PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:15:56PM -0800, Jason Evans wrote: | screen (ports/misc/screen) does wonders for the type of work environment | you're describing in combination with vi. Personally, I'm a hard-core | emacs user, but xterm/screen/vi is actually an appealing alternative. | | Seriously, check screen out. It is *very* worth spending a few hours to | get used to it. How is screen different from using all the vt's in console mode? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:16:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DA937BC77; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OiS4-000Op1-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:28 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA39113; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:25 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815161625.B38878@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> <20000210185747.G17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000210185747.G17536@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:57:48PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual | > `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes | > with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel | > group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of | > the rulers. | > | > I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are | > used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you | > might find this idea strange at first. | > | | Or any kind of accountability... How does the wheel group enforce accountability? Doesn't disabling remote root logins (thus requiring 'su) produce an audit trial, thus enforcing accountability? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:16:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DA937BC77; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OiS4-000Op1-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:28 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA39113; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:16:25 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815161625.B38878@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <4.1.20000211014526.00cc8730@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> <20000210212329.A4718@wallnet.com> <20000210185747.G17536@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000210185747.G17536@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Thu, Feb 10, 2000 at 06:57:48PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual | > `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes | > with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel | > group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of | > the rulers. | > | > I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are | > used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you | > might find this idea strange at first. | > | | Or any kind of accountability... How does the wheel group enforce accountability? Doesn't disabling remote root logins (thus requiring 'su) produce an audit trial, thus enforcing accountability? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:24:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CCC37BB74 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:24:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FFIjS83041; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: j mckitrick Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000815161625.B38878@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick mumbled: > How does the wheel group enforce accountability? Doesn't disabling remote > root logins (thus requiring 'su) produce an audit trial, thus enforcing > accountability? The wheel group pretty much allows sysadmins restrict who can su into root (since only people within the wheel group can su to root under BSD). // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:34:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.aracnet.com (mail2.aracnet.com [216.99.193.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DC037BDFD for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail2.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23279; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:34:13 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id IAA08998; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:34:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:34:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Linh Pham Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > How does the wheel group enforce accountability? Doesn't disabling remote > > root logins (thus requiring 'su) produce an audit trial, thus enforcing > > accountability? > > The wheel group pretty much allows sysadmins restrict who can su into > root (since only people within the wheel group can su to root under > BSD). And that is a good thing... I certainly don't want someone coming along who dosen't know what they're doing and 'fixing' my configuration files. I've spent too much time and sweat getting things working to have to do it all over. It's not a matter of 'the bosses want to restrict who's doing what,' It's a matter of 'I'm not going to spend that time again to fix the problem you created and that is causing us downtime.' Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:35:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD4337BA5C for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA80027; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:33:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:33:40 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: j mckitrick Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000815161625.B38878@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: :| > However, occasionally the rulers do tell someone. Under the usual :| > `su' mechanism, once someone learns the root password who sympathizes :| > with the ordinary users, he or she can tell the rest. The "wheel :| > group" feature would make this impossible, and thus cement the power of :| > the rulers. :| > :| > I'm on the side of the masses, not that of the rulers. If you are :| > used to supporting the bosses and sysadmins in whatever they do, you :| > might find this idea strange at first. :| > :| :| Or any kind of accountability... : :How does the wheel group enforce accountability? Doesn't disabling remote :root logins (thus requiring 'su) produce an audit trial, thus enforcing :accountability? : If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? Remember that RMS is an ITS hacker. ITS had essentially no security. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:37: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CDD637B62B for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:36:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Oili-0009d6-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:36:46 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA39320; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:36:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:36:46 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815163646.A39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jnickelsen@acm.org on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 09:37:36AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Brooks Davis writes: | | [Solaris] | > The big hardware is very nice in a number of applications and once | > you're use to the OS it's not that hard to live with. I'd | > certaintly take it over NT, and quite possiably over Linux, but | > I'd rather have an equivelently priced FreeBSD box built to my | > specs then the Ultra 10 in my office. What clock speed is that CPU? And what kind of apps are run on a workstation of this type? I guess i'm just wondering what people use SOlaris machines for besides servers. WHat do they do well that windows machines don't do well? -jonathon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:44:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE5537B815 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:44:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FFf7a83102; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: j mckitrick Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815163646.A39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick mumbled: > What clock speed is that CPU? And what kind of apps are run on a > workstation of this type? I guess i'm just wondering what people use > SOlaris machines for besides servers. WHat do they do well that windows > machines don't do well? We use a Solaris Ultra 10 as both a server and a workstation. As a server, we run qmail and Apache+IBM WebSphere for development and testing. As a workstation, we have one or two people who constantly do Java development and want a reference build of Java to work off of. I'd personally take the money it costs for an Ultra 10 and build a nice x86 (or even an Alpha) workstation. Anywho... you can get a PCi card for the Ultra 5 (and I think the Ultra 10) that allows you to run Windows on your SPARC machine :-) It's slow as heck, that's for sure! // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:46:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B7837BA95 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OivO-0009ip-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:46:46 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA39457; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:46:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:46:45 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815164645.D39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815161625.B38878@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 8:59:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from baynet.baynetworks.com (ns1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B2F37B935 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pratiksh@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (h8754.s84f5.BayNetworks.COM [132.245.135.84]) by baynet.baynetworks.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09235 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pobox.engeast.BayNetworks.COM (pobox.engeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.61.6]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23255 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wizard.engeast (wizard [192.32.148.69]) by pobox.engeast.BayNetworks.COM (SMI-8.6/BNET-97/04/24-S) with SMTP id LAA18484; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:59:35 -0400 for Received: from nortelnetworks.com by wizard.engeast (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10830; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:59:35 -0400 Message-ID: <399968E7.E68A2478@nortelnetworks.com> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:59:35 -0400 From: Pratik Shah X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD 3.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi .. I am wondering if Release 3.3 is available for download anywhere . I have a version 3.4. I want to use NIST Switch and it supports only release 2.2.6 or release 3.3. The freebsd site doesn't now provide the download for 3.3. Thanks, Pratik Shah. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9: 7:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B0637B935 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OjFK-0000Ub-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:07:22 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA39744; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:07:21 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:07:21 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "Chris J. Mutter" Cc: Brooks Davis , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815170721.B39666@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000214165644.B7643@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <200002151031.LAA12850@terminal.sil.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200002151031.LAA12850@terminal.sil.at>; from cjm@terminal.sil.at on Tue, Feb 15, 2000 at 11:31:43AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > On Mon, Feb 14, 2000 at 07:13:37PM -0500, Troy Settle wrote: | > I assume that GUI think was dtedit or something like it. My first rule | > of surviving Solaris is don't run CDE. In fact, don't run CDE is | > probably my first three rules. ;-) Infact, if the box has work to do, | > running X is generally a bad idea without tons of RAM. I've seen the X | > server hit more then 150MB on my Ultra 10. Add that to netscape and | > staroffice with a powerpoint presentation open and you'll swap a 256MB | > system to death. Why does X start hogging so much memory? Is this for frame buffering? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:18:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail3.aracnet.com (mail3.aracnet.com [216.99.193.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA36D37B815 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@aracnet.com) Received: from shell1.aracnet.com (shell1.aracnet.com [216.99.193.21]) by mail3.aracnet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04924 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:18:55 -0700 Received: by shell1.aracnet.com (8.9.3) id JAA13861; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:18:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:18:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux Observation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone noticed how every single version of Linux seems to advertise that it's the most popular version? :) Ahh well... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:26:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from yoda.fdt.net (yoda.fdt.net [209.212.128.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF95537BDF6 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from flaboy@gnv.fdt.net) Received: from localhost (flaboy@localhost) by yoda.fdt.net with ESMTP id MAA32299; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:23:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:23:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Barnhart X-Sender: flaboy@yoda.fdt.net To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000815164645.D39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No, under linux there's a log of successful and non-successful su attempts. They're saying that unless your in the wheel group in BSD you can't su regardless of it being successful or not, whereas linux allows su's from any user. Of course that can be modified in linux as well only allowing certain users the privelage. BSD just makes it default-install easy by simply having the choice of adding users to the wheel group. On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? > > So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while > under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? > > > jm > -- > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | > | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > k To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:36: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web1304.mail.yahoo.com (web1304.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E179B37BC16 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jawse@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 6994 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Aug 2000 16:35:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20000815163558.6993.qmail@web1304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [208.241.190.1] by web1304.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:35:58 PDT Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:35:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Tim Ryder Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux To: j mckitrick , David Scheidt Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually linux does log SU requests. It is logged to - /var/log/messages If you look in that log file you will see the SU requests. Tim Ryder --- j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David > Scheidt wrote: > | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how > that works, eh? > > So you mean that with the wheel group, you always > know who su'ed, while > under the linux model, this is not true. Do i > understand correctly? > > > jm > -- > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | > | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the > message > > ===== jryder18@earthlink.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:41:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8137BC40 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA03841; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:39:58 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:39:58 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815163646.A39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > | Brooks Davis writes: > | > | [Solaris] > | > The big hardware is very nice in a number of applications and once > | > you're use to the OS it's not that hard to live with. I'd > | > certaintly take it over NT, and quite possiably over Linux, but > | > I'd rather have an equivelently priced FreeBSD box built to my > | > specs then the Ultra 10 in my office. > > What clock speed is that CPU? And what kind of apps are run on a > workstation of this type? I guess i'm just wondering what people use > SOlaris machines for besides servers. WHat do they do well that windows > machines don't do well? > CAD. Lot's of CAD packages are for solaris first and then maybe for some other OS. And many other things. The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: * SUN - cad/eda * HP - GIS and similar * SGI - scientific visualisation These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left out. > -jonathon > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:47:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E531537BD1E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:47:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Ojrm-0001P8-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:47:06 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA40107; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:47:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:47:06 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Narvi Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815174706.A40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815163646.A39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:39:58PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:39:58PM +0200, Narvi wrote: | CAD. Lot's of CAD packages are for solaris first and then maybe for some | other OS. And many other things. | | The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: | * SUN - cad/eda | * HP - GIS and similar | * SGI - scientific visualisation CAD i know, but what are EDA and GIS? And why is Sun better for CAD, anyway? Can't NT or M$ do just as well? And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? | These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left | out. Why? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:48:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA1C37BE17 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA02011; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:36:28 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:36:27 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD suitable laptop Message-ID: <20000815163627.A1849@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@enteract.com on Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 12:33:46AM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Aug 14, 2000 at 12:33:46AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > I need a laptop, preferably one that comes out of the box ready to run > FreeBSD. New, or second hand? I can wholeheartedly recommend pretty much anything from the Sony Vaio range. I'm writing this on a F270 (PII/333, 64MB RAM, 6GB disk), and next to me I have an F709 (PIII/750, 128MB RAM, 18GB disk). The 270 is superb -- suspend to disk and memory work well, and FreeBSD 4.x supports the sound card, and XFree86 works out of the box. It doesn't have built in networking or a modem, so I use two PCMCIA cards, which just work. I'm just playing around with the 709 at the moment. Suspend to disk no longer works (I suspect it needs a file on a FAT partition to swap to, not just a spare partition, so the BIOS has been altered since the 270) and it uses the NeoMagic 256XL+ graphics card, which doesn't work out of the box in XFree86 -- there are instructions in the -mobile mailing list archives. It's got a built in modem, but I haven't had a chance to play with that yet. I know Jim Mock and Bill Swingle run the smaller, lighter Vaios. You'll also get recommendations on the -mobile mailing list. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:49:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DF537BE01 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OjuE-000AQG-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:49:38 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA40123; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:49:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:49:38 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Joe Barnhart Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815174938.B40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815164645.D39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from flaboy@gnv.fdt.net on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:23:11PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: | > | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? | > | > So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while | > under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? I guess to state what i mean more accurately, while the su attempts are logged in linux AND BSD, disallowing remote root logins means a person must login as themself FIRST, then SU, thus allowing all changes they have made to be tracked to them more easily, correct? Is this the accountability that was referred to? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:53:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E0037BDAA for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FGoM483329; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:50:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:50:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: j mckitrick Cc: Narvi , brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815174706.A40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick mumbled: > CAD i know, but what are EDA and GIS? I think GIS stands for Geographic Information System. MDA is Mechanical Design Automation... so is it safe to assume that EDA is Eletronic Design Automation? // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:55: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D77A37BE19 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@mail.hiwaay.net) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e7FGt1b14266; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:55:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:55:01 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <200008151655.e7FGt1b14266@mail.hiwaay.net> To: dscheidt@enteract.com, jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Cc: bright@wintelcom.net, cweimann@wallnet.com, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ohoyer@fbwi.fh-wilhelmshaven.de Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? > > So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while > under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? I think what he is saying is when you login directly as root that you won't have an sulog or any other means of knowing who is using the root account and password. This is true for any system. The other way to interpret it is, "If I got root, I'll trash your sulog." A question to ask, "Can Linux deny root logins? (forcing use of su(1))" -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:55:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D441337BE19 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id e7FGsVs01154; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:54:31 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: j mckitrick Cc: Joe Barnhart , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815095431.X4854@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20000815164645.D39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000815174938.B40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20000815174938.B40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 05:49:38PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * j mckitrick [000815 09:49] wrote: > | > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > | > | If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? > | > > | > So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while > | > under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? > > I guess to state what i mean more accurately, while the su attempts are > logged in linux AND BSD, disallowing remote root logins means a person must > login as themself FIRST, then SU, thus allowing all changes they have made > to be tracked to them more easily, correct? Is this the accountability that > was referred to? ARGH! no! The idea is that let's say I'm in wheel and my PFY is also in wheel but Joe Clueless is in the next cube over from me and overhears me telling the PFY to root password, Joe Clueless still won't be able to su to root. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 9:58:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9084737B505 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27944; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:57:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:57:24 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: j mckitrick Cc: Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000815164645.D39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: :On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:33:40AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: :| If I got root, you don't have an sulog. Funny how that works, eh? : :So you mean that with the wheel group, you always know who su'ed, while :under the linux model, this is not true. Do i understand correctly? : : I have a machine, a set of trusted users, a much larger set of regular users, and a root password that everyone knows. In the RMS model of the world, I have no idea who has su'd. In the BSD wheel group model, I can be reasonably certain the set of people who have. Mind you, that's no way to run a machine, but the principal holds true anyways. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10: 1:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5027A37BD9E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FGw1F83364; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:58:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:58:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: j mckitrick , Joe Barnhart , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: <20000815095431.X4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Alfred Perlstein mumbled: > ARGH! no! The idea is that let's say I'm in wheel and my PFY is > also in wheel but Joe Clueless is in the next cube over from me > and overhears me telling the PFY to root password, Joe Clueless > still won't be able to su to root. Exactly! // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10: 1:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E2C37BE9D for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtihi.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.50]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10016; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03089; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200008151704.KAA03089@mindspring.com> To: Narvi Cc: j mckitrick , brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:39:58 +0200." Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:04:43 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > CAD. Lot's of CAD packages are for solaris first and then maybe for some > other OS. And many other things. > > The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: > * SUN - cad/eda > * HP - GIS and similar > * SGI - scientific visualisation > > These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left > out. Well, perhaps a bit more than a simple stereotype, one enforced by clueless marketing people at Xilinx, Modelsim, Cadence, WindRiver and nearly all the EDA vendors. A first step toward overcoming this situation would be having a FreeBSD native version of FlexLM. There exists one for Linux but without FlexLM there is absolutely *no* hope of ever getting native versions. Second step? Get Bristol or one of the other Win32 -> Unix portability companies to support FreeBSD. Cheers, Jerry Hicks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10: 4: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B9E37B533 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04096; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:02:28 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:02:28 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815174706.A40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:39:58PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > | CAD. Lot's of CAD packages are for solaris first and then maybe for some > | other OS. And many other things. > | > | The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: > | * SUN - cad/eda > | * HP - GIS and similar > | * SGI - scientific visualisation > > CAD i know, but what are EDA and GIS? > EDA - electronic design whatever. mostly boils down to designing chips and pcbs and similar. GIS - geographical information service or somesuch. Maps in computers and data systems relating to these maps. > And why is Sun better for CAD, anyway? Can't NT or M$ do just as well? 1) Major CAD software houses have supported Sun systems for a long time - they stoped releasing new versions for SunOS 4.1.x just last year or so. Hence they have lot's of experience 2) Likewise, as computers that could run MS anything and at the same time be even remotedly usable for CAD are a new thing, most of old users already have lot's of experience with non-x86 platforms 3) Sun natively supports XWindows, while in the case of WinNT (very few serious software supports Win95/98) you need to run an Xserver on top of Windows native graphics API. 4) Sun (ok, unix) machine groups are much nicer to administer than MS machine groups > And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? > Esoteric? There is nothing esoteric about that. > | These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left > | out. > > Why? > Beacuse I don't know of special stereotypes for those. > > jm > -- > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | > | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10: 5:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9009B37B610 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Ok9V-000AaR-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:05:25 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40371; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:05:25 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:05:24 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Linh Pham Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Joe Barnhart , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux Message-ID: <20000815180524.E40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815095431.X4854@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from lplist@closedsrc.org on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 09:58:01AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 09:58:01AM -0700, Linh Pham wrote: | On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Alfred Perlstein mumbled: | | > ARGH! no! The idea is that let's say I'm in wheel and my PFY is | > also in wheel but Joe Clueless is in the next cube over from me | > and overhears me telling the PFY to root password, Joe Clueless | > still won't be able to su to root. | | Exactly! OK, i see, i just thought the idea of accountability was that no one could perform root activities anonymously, if remote root logins were disallowed. But the concept of only wheel members able to su to root i understood. jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10: 6: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF9337B610 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FH2af83392; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: David Scheidt Cc: j mckitrick , Alfred Perlstein , "Christopher S. Weimann" , Olaf Hoyer , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why I Don't Do Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, David Scheidt mumbled: > I have a machine, a set of trusted users, a much larger set of regular users, > and a root password that everyone knows. In the RMS model of the world, I > have no idea who has su'd. In the BSD wheel group model, I can be > reasonably certain the set of people who have. Mind you, that's no way to > run a machine, but the principal holds true anyways. It also helps prevent Joe User from trying to hack away at the root password (that is if they don't know it). // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:12:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B0F37B505 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OkGJ-000Afv-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:12:28 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40441; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:12:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:12:27 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Narvi Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815181227.F40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815174706.A40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 07:02:28PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 07:02:28PM +0200, Narvi wrote: | EDA - electronic design whatever. mostly boils down to designing chips and | pcbs and similar. | 3) Sun natively supports XWindows, while in the case of WinNT (very few | serious software supports Win95/98) you need to run an Xserver on top of | Windows native graphics API. That's funny. The engineer in the office next to me develops XILINX on windows. | > And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? | > | | Esoteric? There is nothing esoteric about that. I guess what i meant was it seems this would be a very small niche for software, where the price per unit would have to be high to make a profit. Much like the discussion here a week or so ago about GUIs and apps in the movies versus real life. SOmeone said that some very technical software for niche markets is often simple text based because the development costs are prohibitively high. jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:15:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2040437B505 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OkIt-0001wR-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:15:08 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40492; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:15:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:15:07 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Narvi , brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815181507.G40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151704.KAA03089@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008151704.KAA03089@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:04:43AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:04:43AM -0700, W Gerald Hicks wrote: | > The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: | > * SUN - cad/eda | > * HP - GIS and similar | > * SGI - scientific visualisation | > | > These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left | > out. | | Well, perhaps a bit more than a simple stereotype, one enforced by | clueless marketing people at Xilinx, Modelsim, Cadence, WindRiver and | nearly all the EDA vendors. I'm afraid i don't understand. WHat are the marketers doing wrong? Promoting ONLY those OS's for these types of apps? | A first step toward overcoming this situation would be having a FreeBSD | native version of FlexLM. There exists one for Linux but without | FlexLM there is absolutely *no* hope of ever getting native versions. So native FlexLM would have to come first, and then other apps of this type would follow? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:18:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E5537B672 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@mail.hiwaay.net) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e7FHIbb13082; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:18:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:18:37 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > | The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: > | * SUN - cad/eda > | * HP - GIS and similar > | * SGI - scientific visualisation > > CAD i know, but what are EDA and GIS? Electronic Design and Automation Geographical Information System > And why is Sun better for CAD, anyway? Can't NT or M$ do just as well? Its an area Sun and Unix got a solid foothold before Microsoft's nose was able to smell $. Microsoft would have the world to believe NT is just as good as Unix. But those I have known who spend their careers on CAD workstations have learned to leverage the tool nature of Unix and minimize the grunt work. And when one spends over $50k per seat one has the right to expect higher quality than Microsoft delivers. NT's "we know better than you" GUI doesn't cut the mustard. > And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? The EDA market is huge. It doesn't take very many $50k seats (software only) before it adds up. The shrinkwrap schematic and PCB portion is only a small slice of the EDA pie. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:26: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BAD37B576 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtihi.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.50]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03515; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03230; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200008151729.KAA03230@mindspring.com> To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:15:07 BST." <20000815181507.G40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:29:18 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | perhaps a bit more than a simple stereotype, one enforced by | clueless marketing people at Xilinx, Modelsim, Cadence, WindRiver and | nearly all the EDA vendors. > I'm afraid i don't understand. WHat are the marketers doing wrong? > Promoting ONLY those OS's for these types of apps? Yep. Forcing their customers (against overwhelming customer demand according to EE Times) to use only Sun or NT. Note that the engineer using Xilinx Foundation Series beside you really doesn't have a choice. He *must* run Windows to use the foremost FPGA development environment in the world. I know a lot of designers who hate Windows but to do their jobs really have no choice. | A first step toward overcoming this situation would be having a FreeBSD | native version of FlexLM. There exists one for Linux but without | FlexLM there is absolutely *no* hope of ever getting native versions. > So native FlexLM would have to come first, and then other apps of this > type would follow? These companies are typically *very* protective of their revenues. This situation is sometimes enforced by their investors. FlexLM is the top license management scheme used by the EDA/CAD vendors. Once they support a platform all the other LM's will "me-too" right behind them. Cheers, Jerry Hicks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:28:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EE237B50F for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04339; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:27:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:27:03 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815181227.F40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 07:02:28PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > | EDA - electronic design whatever. mostly boils down to designing chips and > | pcbs and similar. > > > > | 3) Sun natively supports XWindows, while in the case of WinNT (very few > | serious software supports Win95/98) you need to run an Xserver on top of > | Windows native graphics API. > > That's funny. The engineer in the office next to me develops XILINX on > windows. > Some companies do have 'native windows' versions of their products. IN some cases, these are the low end tools. Some times only a part of a suite is available on windows. There is at least one vendor that uses TKL and thus doesn't have that problem. > | > And is there really that much of a demand for esoteric uses such as these? > | > > | > | Esoteric? There is nothing esoteric about that. > > I guess what i meant was it seems this would be a very small niche for > software, where the price per unit would have to be high to make a profit. > Much like the discussion here a week or so ago about GUIs and apps in the > movies versus real life. SOmeone said that some very technical software for > niche markets is often simple text based because the development costs are > prohibitively high. > That's beacuase there is no money in telescope opertaions etc. on the moment - as opposed to the money moving in mapping oil reserves, chip design, etc. When NEO asteroid mining becomes profitable, there will be so many astronomical asteroid related software with fancy GUIs, builtin AI support yada yada yada it will easily eclipse that presently found in CAD. Or in other words - how many $M a year can this company save/help make in buying more eficent GUI equiped software at $50K per seat? > jm > -- > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | > | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:33:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE5737BE49 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13Okam-000ApE-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:33:36 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40795; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:33:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:33:36 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815183336.J40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815181507.G40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008151729.KAA03230@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008151729.KAA03230@mindspring.com>; from jhix@mindspring.com on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Yep. Forcing their customers (against overwhelming customer demand | according to EE Times) to use only Sun or NT. Many would prefer linux or BSD? | Note that the engineer using Xilinx Foundation Series beside you really | doesn't have a choice. He *must* run Windows to use the foremost FPGA | development environment in the world. I know a lot of designers who | hate Windows but to do their jobs really have no choice. Maybe it's just a question of developer resources and market demand? | These companies are typically *very* protective of their revenues. This | situation is sometimes enforced by their investors. FlexLM is the | top license management scheme used by the EDA/CAD vendors. Once they | support a platform all the other LM's will "me-too" right behind them. Is this one of those systems where a license server only lets as many copies of the program run as there are licenses? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:41:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5532537B556 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:41:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04485; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:40:19 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:40:19 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: j mckitrick , brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <200008151704.KAA03089@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > > CAD. Lot's of CAD packages are for solaris first and then maybe for some > > other OS. And many other things. > > > > The stereotypical unix worstation uses are: > > * SUN - cad/eda > > * HP - GIS and similar > > * SGI - scientific visualisation > > > > These are, of course, but stereotypes. Note that Digital and IBM are left > > out. > > Well, perhaps a bit more than a simple stereotype, one enforced by > clueless marketing people at Xilinx, Modelsim, Cadence, WindRiver and > nearly all the EDA vendors. The 'stereotype' thing was a disclaimer against anybody pointing out the things that do support HP/AIX for EDA, etc. 8-) There is a similarily fuzzy picture with palform support for things like DB, SAP, etc. > > A first step toward overcoming this situation would be having a FreeBSD > native version of FlexLM. There exists one for Linux but without > FlexLM there is absolutely *no* hope of ever getting native versions. > Agreed. > Second step? Get Bristol or one of the other Win32 -> Unix portability > companies to support FreeBSD. > That only applies for things moving off win32 to also supporting unix, not to the old fish that already do support unix. For the other's, it's supporting standdards, having Motif/CDE/whatever toolkit available and standard supported easily is the key. > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:46:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876FF37B7EE for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04520; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:44:44 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:44:44 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: j mckitrick Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815183336.J40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > | Yep. Forcing their customers (against overwhelming customer demand > | according to EE Times) to use only Sun or NT. > > Many would prefer linux or BSD? > Oh, also HP/SGI/Alha. Or see newer versions supported or support not droped. See the stereotypes I listed for what is used on what. > | Note that the engineer using Xilinx Foundation Series beside you really > | doesn't have a choice. He *must* run Windows to use the foremost FPGA > | development environment in the world. I know a lot of designers who > | hate Windows but to do their jobs really have no choice. > > Maybe it's just a question of developer resources and market demand? > In which case explain all the Xilinx tools that are available on Sun? > | These companies are typically *very* protective of their revenues. This > | situation is sometimes enforced by their investors. FlexLM is the > | top license management scheme used by the EDA/CAD vendors. Once they > | support a platform all the other LM's will "me-too" right behind them. > > Is this one of those systems where a license server only lets as many copies > of the program run as there are licenses? > Right. As said, it's in practice a pre-requisite. > > > jm > -- > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | > | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | > o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:50:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4683637B83C for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:50:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OkrO-000Ayr-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:50:46 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA40969; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:50:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:50:45 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Kelly Cc: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! Message-ID: <20000815185045.K40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008151718.e7FHIbb13082@mail.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@mail.hiwaay.net on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:18:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:18:37PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: | Microsoft would have the world to believe NT is just as good as Unix. | But those I have known who spend their careers on CAD workstations have | learned to leverage the tool nature of Unix and minimize the grunt work. So even the GUI apps and CAD exhibit the same properties of Unix, in being made up of small components that work together? This means they function inherently different than windows counterparts? | NT's "we know better than you" GUI doesn't cut the mustard. What kind is most popular in the Unix CAD world? CDE? jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:52:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A21437BE7E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtihi.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.202.50]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22704; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA03351; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200008151755.KAA03351@mindspring.com> To: Narvi Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:40:19 +0200." Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:55:21 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Second step? Get Bristol or one of the other Win32 -> Unix portability > > companies to support FreeBSD. > > > That only applies for things moving off win32 to also supporting unix, not > to the old fish that already do support unix. Not exactly. There are quite a few products out there which currently use these toolsets as the basis of their Unix support. Wind River's Tornado is one, there are quite few more I've encountered under Solaris. It seems to be a trend, for better or worse. I've had more than one vendor cite the lack of these toolsets for FreeBSD as a factor limiting their support. > For the other's, it's supporting standdards, having Motif/CDE/whatever > toolkit available and standard supported easily is the key. I'd argue that Motif/CDE has done more to harm the Unix marketplace than anything else, not counting Windows (but that's another troll :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:56:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D8637B610 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:56:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: from localhost (lplist@localhost) by q.closedsrc.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7FHr9N83557; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: j mckitrick Cc: David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815185045.K40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick mumbled: > | NT's "we know better than you" GUI doesn't cut the mustard. > > What kind is most popular in the Unix CAD world? CDE? Probably CDE/Motif, since both are quite abundant in commericial Unices. // Linh Pham // http://closedsrc.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:58: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA1237B610 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA04658; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:57:42 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:57:41 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <200008151755.KAA03351@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > Second step? Get Bristol or one of the other Win32 -> Unix portability > > > companies to support FreeBSD. > > > > > > That only applies for things moving off win32 to also supporting unix, not > > to the old fish that already do support unix. > > Not exactly. There are quite a few products out there which currently > use these toolsets as the basis of their Unix support. Wind River's > Tornado is one, there are quite few more I've encountered under Solaris. > > It seems to be a trend, for better or worse. I've had more than one > vendor cite the lack of these toolsets for FreeBSD as a factor limiting > their support. > Didn't know that. > > For the other's, it's supporting standdards, having Motif/CDE/whatever > > toolkit available and standard supported easily is the key. > > I'd argue that Motif/CDE has done more to harm the Unix marketplace > than anything else, not counting Windows (but that's another troll :-) > Maybe - but that's irrelevant if teh tool needs motif. Or some X server extensions. Or anything else that we don't have (yet). > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 10:58:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB80B37BDEB for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:58:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA52064; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:56:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:56:58 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: j mckitrick Cc: David Kelly , narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815185045.K40029@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: :On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 12:18:37PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: :| Microsoft would have the world to believe NT is just as good as Unix. :| But those I have known who spend their careers on CAD workstations have :| learned to leverage the tool nature of Unix and minimize the grunt work. : :So even the GUI apps and CAD exhibit the same properties of Unix, in being made :up of small components that work together? This means they function :inherently different than windows counterparts? Even if the applications are monolithic, it's very nice to be able to do things like run sed and awk against various files. Microsoft No Tools makes that much harder. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 11:23:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law-f290.hotmail.com [209.185.130.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59ED737B6D7 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dru_brown@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:23:51 -0700 Received: from 209.246.77.30 by lw1fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.246.77.30] From: "Andrew Brown" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux games under bsd Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:23:51 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Aug 2000 18:23:51.0311 (UTC) FILETIME=[F62289F0:01C006E5] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If anyone on this list is a gamer, take a look at the lates press release from Loki Games www.lokigames.com. Life may have just gotten better. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 12: 0:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oracle.clara.net (oracle.clara.net [195.8.69.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EE637B74C for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from merlin@netlink.co.uk) Received: from [195.8.76.222] (helo=maesd.A470.com) by oracle.clara.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 13Olwp-000H0t-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:00:27 +0100 Received: by maesd.A470.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1E4A55577; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:56:26 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:56:25 +0000 From: Darren Wyn Rees To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux games under bsd Message-ID: <20000815185625.A7810@netlink.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: ; from dru_brown@hotmail.com on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:23:51PM +0000 User-Agent: Mutt 1.2i X-No-Archive: yes X-PGP-812C54B1: F8 79 5E 84 F0 20 A5 62 FA 2D E9 BD BE 06 7D 10 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:23:51PM +0000, Andrew Brown wrote: > If anyone on this list is a gamer, take a look at the lates press release > from Loki Games www.lokigames.com. Life may have just gotten better. I bought Loki's Civ : Call to Power for Linux, many months ago; just haven't had the time to install it on FreeBSD (only briefly looked at it on Linux). -- Darren Wyn Rees merlin@netlink.co.uk ASK your ISP to ADD the NEW england.* Newsgroups http://www.england.news-admin.org/accessfaq.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 12:33:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE4A37B84A for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA15630; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:45:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Pratik Shah Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 In-Reply-To: <399968E7.E68A2478@nortelnetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Pratik Shah wrote: > I am wondering if Release 3.3 is available for download anywhere . I > have a version 3.4. > I want to use NIST Switch and it supports only release 2.2.6 or release > 3.3. > The freebsd site doesn't now provide the download for 3.3. You can probably still cvsup that release. If your software runs on 3.3 it should run on 3.4. I would try it unless there was something definite and specific about 3.4 that is certain to cause your software to fail. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 12:37:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 968B737B99E for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@nwlink.com) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA16152; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 12:48:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: j mckitrick Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Gimme FreeBSD anyday! In-Reply-To: <20000815163646.A39188@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > What clock speed is that CPU? And what kind of apps are run on a > workstation of this type? I guess i'm just wondering what people use > SOlaris machines for besides servers. WHat do they do well that windows > machines don't do well? All major high end CAD runs on Solaris. With SGI sort shuffling around trying to figure out what the hell they want to do, I would use Solaris if I had the money for both an Ultra-Whateveritistody and Pro Engineer. This package would run you about $30K. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 13:31: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DA8F37BB8A for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 13:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.91.36] ident=root) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13Okbn-0002lV-00; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:34:39 +0100 Received: (from ben@localhost) by strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA80651; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:34:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ben) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:34:38 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Pratik Shah Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 Message-ID: <20000815183438.C59363@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <399968E7.E68A2478@nortelnetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <399968E7.E68A2478@nortelnetworks.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pratik Shah wrote: > I am wondering if Release 3.3 is available for download anywhere . I > have a version 3.4. I want to use NIST Switch and it supports only > release 2.2.6 or release 3.3. The freebsd site doesn't now provide > the download for 3.3. cvsup the source with tag=RELENG_3_3_0_RELEASE and build the world from that. Alternatively you might look around a few mirrors to see if any of them still have it. But the real solution is to contact the people who make this NIST Switch thing, whatever it is, and ask them nicely to support a newer version of FreeBSD such as 4.1, which has many improvements over the 3.x branch. -- Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org / PGP: 0x99392F7D FreeBSD Documentation Project / To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 14: 2:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wilsonandhorton.co.nz (fw2.wilsonandhorton.co.nz [203.99.66.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250A437B9F2 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@itouch.co.nz) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by wilsonandhorton.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00874 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:02:49 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:02:49 +1200 From: Jonathan Chen To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux games under bsd Message-ID: <20000816090249.B742@jonc.ntdns.wilsonandhorton.co.n> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from dru_brown@hotmail.com on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:23:51PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 06:23:51PM +0000, Andrew Brown wrote: > If anyone on this list is a gamer, take a look at the lates press release > from Loki Games www.lokigames.com. Life may have just gotten better. It'd be so much nicer if they'd release a native version... -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you're right 90% of the time, why quibble about the remaining 3%? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 14:37:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5719537B884 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16079; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:34:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAg_a4eF; Tue Aug 15 14:34:36 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21153; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:36:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008152136.OAA21153@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? To: fran@reyes.somos.net Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:36:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nicole@unixgirl.com (Nicole Harrington.), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), mike@sentex.net ("(Mike Tancsa)"), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <200008120257.WAA14090@sanson.reyes.somos.net> from "Francisco Reyes" at Aug 11, 2000 11:06:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:09:34 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: > >...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not > >support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. > > I could be wrong, but I though I read some reference to tagged > queing on the 3ware site. The standard supports it. No one implements it in any drives. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 15:58: 0 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B9937BC93 for ; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 15:57:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA88920; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:57:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:57:41 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Terry Lambert Cc: fran@reyes.somos.net, "Nicole Harrington." , "(Mike Tancsa)" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: <200008152136.OAA21153@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (cc's snipped.) On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: :> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:09:34 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: :> >...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not :> >support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. :> :> I could be wrong, but I though I read some reference to tagged :> queing on the 3ware site. : :The standard supports it. No one implements it in any drives. : I've been led to believe this is because if they did, the disks would cost almost as much as SCSI disks. The only thing IDE has going for it is that it's cheap. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 16:41: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A5737B689; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA26388; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:41:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: j mckitrick Cc: Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-Reply-To: <20000815143351.B37927@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, j mckitrick wrote: > On Wed, Jan 26, 2000 at 03:15:56PM -0800, Jason Evans wrote: > | screen (ports/misc/screen) does wonders for the type of work environment > | you're describing in combination with vi. Personally, I'm a hard-core > | emacs user, but xterm/screen/vi is actually an appealing alternative. > | > | Seriously, check screen out. It is *very* worth spending a few hours to > | get used to it. > > How is screen different from using all the vt's in console mode? You don't have to be on the console? Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Aug 15 16:51:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9E337B689; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13OqUn-000DzF-00; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:51:49 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA43778; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:51:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:51:49 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: kern/13644 Message-ID: <20000816005148.A43753@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000815143351.B37927@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@freebsd.org on Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 04:41:00PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 04:41:00PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: | > How is screen different from using all the vt's in console mode? | | You don't have to be on the console? Ah... so it works like vt's only remotely? Cool.... jm -- o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o | ~~~~~~~~~~~ jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org ~~~~~~~~~~~ | | "I prefer the term 'Artificial Person' myself." | o-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-o To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 0:11:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from netplex.com.au (adsl-63-207-30-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.207.30.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A954437C17C for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (peter@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netplex.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18408; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200008160709.AAA18408@netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: David Scheidt Cc: Terry Lambert , fran@reyes.somos.net, "Nicole Harrington." , "(Mike Tancsa)" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: 3ware IDE Raid. SCSI killer? In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:09:40 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > (cc's snipped.) > On Tue, 15 Aug 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > :> On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:09:34 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: > :> >...as a backhand reference to the fact that IDE dtill does not > :> >support concurrent outstanding I/O via tagged command queueing. > :> > :> I could be wrong, but I though I read some reference to tagged > :> queing on the 3ware site. > : > :The standard supports it. No one implements it in any drives. > : > > I've been led to believe this is because if they did, the disks would cost > almost as much as SCSI disks. The only thing IDE has going for it is that > it's cheap. No, it is only a software change. It costs no difference at all to manufacture and ship an IDE disk with tagged queueing implemented. All it needs is a once-off investment in programmer time for an almost trivial task compared to the other stuff that the firmware has to do. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 2:18: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terminal.sil.at (terminal.sil.at [194.152.178.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2ECC37BB18; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 02:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjm@terminal.sil.at) Received: from terminal.sil.at (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by terminal.sil.at (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA24146; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:16:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200008160916.LAA24146@terminal.sil.at> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 01/07/2000 To: j mckitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jason Evans , Wes Peters , Lowell Gilbert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kern/13644 In-reply-to: jcm's message of Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:51:49 +0100. <20000816005148.A43753@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Face: "0|_!}6Ay;=lSa@qs\q$u2RZUTyW(m(?80f[OF3eR:4uk6rd&+9lUw"6ACgq]hyak/Io Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, Aug 15, 2000 at 04:41:00PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > | > How is screen different from using all the vt's in console mode? > | > | You don't have to be on the console? > > Ah... so it works like vt's only remotely? Cool.... have to admit - coult not live anymore without screen. it has some really cool features like copy&paste from within 1 to different virtual screens, whatever... try out: screen and then start in different screens vtsplit if you want the total overkill :-) - good for mailserver logs and top in a splitted screen. later, cjm -- SILVER SERVER \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\ \\ \ cjm@sil.at, cjm@enemy.org, neo@bsdger.org www.sil.at |A ** PGP-Key-ID: 0xA941452D | "Remember - if all you have is an axe, |S --------------------------| every problem looks like hours of fun." |R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 9:41:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4AE2737C3BE for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in) Received: (qmail 10799 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2000 16:41:21 -0000 Received: from theory7.physics.iisc.ernet.in (qmailr@144.16.71.127) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 16 Aug 2000 16:41:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 7369 invoked by uid 211); 16 Aug 2000 16:41:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:11:19 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: Linux 2.2.14 alpha Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Take a look at www.sun.com today. The biggest thing on it is the GNOME footprint. Is this of interest to BSD? I think so, for a few reasons: (1) Since Sun has an interest in making gnome work on solaris (they have announced that gnome 2.0 will get bundled with solaris when it's ready), it will hopefully not develop in too linux-specific a way from now on. (2) Gnome works very well with FreeBSD, and I think with all BSD's, and pushing it (and KDE) can definitely help push the BSD userbase. (3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL software. I hate these license wars and, after reading these lists for some time, I know I'm not alone (though I don't know what the percentages are). But a far-from-insignificant section of the BSD advocates enjoys flaming the GPL violently, at any provocation, in a way that seems to do more harm than good. Lots of software being developed for linux is ported to BSD but not emphasised very much by the BSD community, and I think the licensing is part of the reason; why not get over this hangup, and use these things to promote BSD the same way they're promoting linux? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 16: 1: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8453537B571 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00873; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:00:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000816165928.05721c70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:00:21 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, Rahul, but being ethical is not a "hangup." The GPL is destructive, and is aimed right at the hearts of corporations such as Sun. They are very, VERY foolish to let it in the door. --Brett At 10:41 AM 8/16/2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Take a look at www.sun.com today. The biggest thing on it is the GNOME >footprint. > >Is this of interest to BSD? I think so, for a few reasons: >(1) Since Sun has an interest in making gnome work on solaris (they >have announced that gnome 2.0 will get bundled with solaris when it's >ready), it will hopefully not develop in too linux-specific a way >from now on. >(2) Gnome works very well with FreeBSD, and I think with all BSD's, >and pushing it (and KDE) can definitely help push the BSD userbase. >(3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL >software. I hate these license wars and, after reading these lists >for some time, I know I'm not alone (though I don't know what the >percentages are). But a far-from-insignificant section of the BSD >advocates enjoys flaming the GPL violently, at any provocation, in a >way that seems to do more harm than good. Lots of software being >developed for linux is ported to BSD but not emphasised very much >by the BSD community, and I think the licensing is part of the reason; >why not get over this hangup, and use these things to promote BSD >the same way they're promoting linux? > >Rahul. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 17:25:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C728937B9A6; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@pike.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA02822; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) From: John Baldwin Message-Id: <200008170025.RAA02822@pike.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make Makefile config.h job.c main.c In-Reply-To: <200008162331.QAA29065@freefall.freebsd.org> from Brian Feldman at "Aug 16, 2000 04:31:44 pm" To: Brian Feldman Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Feldman wrote: > green 2000/08/16 16:31:44 PDT > > Modified files: > usr.bin/make Makefile config.h job.c main.c > Log: > Allow use of the ${MAKE_SHELL} variable to specify alternate shells for > make(1) to use. Setting it to "sh" and "ksh" are the only values which > work right ATM; I wouldn't expect "csh" to get you far ;) zsh should work though, or bash, right? Basically any Bourne-ish shell.. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Aug 16 18:32:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1958237B50E; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@FreeBSD.org) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:32:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman X-Sender: green@green.dyndns.org To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/make Makefile config.h job.c main.c In-Reply-To: <200008170025.RAA02822@pike.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, John Baldwin wrote: > Brian Feldman wrote: > > green 2000/08/16 16:31:44 PDT > > > > Modified files: > > usr.bin/make Makefile config.h job.c main.c > > Log: > > Allow use of the ${MAKE_SHELL} variable to specify alternate shells for > > make(1) to use. Setting it to "sh" and "ksh" are the only values which > > work right ATM; I wouldn't expect "csh" to get you far ;) > > zsh should work though, or bash, right? Basically any Bourne-ish shell.. Should :) I don't know any major -isms of our ash-based /bin/sh, but I do know that pdksh is one of the closest shells to true complete POSIX compliance, and I've been running with that as the MAKE_SHELL for a very, very long time -- and it even speeds up ports building significantly! Using zsh might be hard without adding something to turn off some of its very weird parsing, and I think bash would probably work, too. As for other shells, I'd place money on the Real ksh working for the job, and that's about all I can really think of. > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 7:19:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (c62443-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.0.69.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09BFF37B62B for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adsharma@localhost) by sharmas.dhs.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA21452; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:19:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:19:30 -0700 From: Arun Sharma Message-Id: <200008171419.HAA21452@sharmas.dhs.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Reply-To: adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 22:11:19 +0530, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > (3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL > software. I hate these license wars and, after reading these lists > for some time, I know I'm not alone (though I don't know what the > percentages are). But a far-from-insignificant section of the BSD > advocates enjoys flaming the GPL violently, at any provocation, in a > way that seems to do more harm than good. Lots of software being > developed for linux is ported to BSD but not emphasised very much > by the BSD community, and I think the licensing is part of the reason; > why not get over this hangup, and use these things to promote BSD > the same way they're promoting linux? The bigotry comes as much from the GPL camp as the BSD camp. The mozilla web page claims, non-GPL licenses are "obstacles for contribution and reuse of code". http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/mozilla-relicense-faq.html Everyone in the world (including python, perl) and others who don't necessarily agree with GPL have to become "GPL compatible" in order to survive. I see two reasons why BSD is a separate entity, as opposed to being "merged" with linux (people may disagree here): 1. Different development model 2. Different licensing model I think they're both equally important. So the new corporate wisdom seems to be - a dead open source project needs GPL in order to be revived. Let's see if the hypothesis can be tested in the real world. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 7:21: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2335837B63F for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 07:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13PQXR-000AR7-00; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:20:57 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA60804; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:20:57 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:20:57 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Michael Lucas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs on a laptop Message-ID: <20000817152057.A60719@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000817130011.A59464@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008171205.IAA79923@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200008171205.IAA79923@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 08:05:54AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org i can see the potential for this to get out of control :-) here is my new plan: dvorak layout change caps lock to ctrl this should keep me busy for a while jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 9:38:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C6CF37B6C9 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16439 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 16:38:02 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 16:38:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 6869 invoked by uid 211); 17 Aug 2000 16:38:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:08:02 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Arun Sharma Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000817220802.A6830@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <200008171419.HAA21452@sharmas.dhs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200008171419.HAA21452@sharmas.dhs.org>; from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org on Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 07:19:30AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arun Sharma said on Aug 17, 2000 at 07:19:30: > > I see two reasons why BSD is a separate entity, as opposed to being > "merged" with linux (people may disagree here): > > 1. Different development model > 2. Different licensing model > > I think they're both equally important. Yes, but one needs a good desktop environment for desktop use, and twm doesn't cut it. One has to either accept GPL'd software for such things, or duplicate that entire effort with a BSD license. > So the new corporate wisdom seems to be - a dead open source project > needs GPL in order to be revived. Let's see if the hypothesis can be > tested in the real world. If you're talking about Mozilla, I'm not sure it's dead; and the GPL switch seems to be motivated partly by some recent problems in reusing the Mozilla code with GPL'd code as in Galeon. I agree that the GPL's incompatibility with other legitimate "free" licenses (by the FSF's own definition) is a problem with the GPL and not the other licenses. But that's a different issue entirely. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 10:46:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web5305.mail.yahoo.com (web5305.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.106.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B7C137BA2D for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20000817174127.27653.qmail@web5305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.32.148.69] by web5305.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:41:27 PDT Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:41:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Pratik Shah Subject: remote installation. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi This is the problem: I have a remote workstation presently loaded with fbsd 3.4. I have to load it and run it with fbsd 3.3, instead. Can anyone suggest some way ... Thanks, Pratik. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 10:46:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544F37BC39 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA09252; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:58:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <20000817220802.A6830@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Yes, but one needs a good desktop environment for desktop use, and > twm doesn't cut it. One has to either accept GPL'd software for > such things, or duplicate that entire effort with a BSD license. But FreeBSD is a server OS. Most everything the hackers is do is server-centric. I would not ask them to change. Just let the KDE folks do their thing and let our port maintainers do their's. In other words, we do have perfectly good desktop if you want one. In fact, we have two. We have as many window managers as are existent. And so what about the GPL. Do you (you rhetorically speaking) use tar? Do you use bash? Do you use gzip? I don't reject using good functioning software based on license. I even pay for software that fits my needs. The license _is not_ the software. Raul, didn't you start this thread with a complaint against license zeal? Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 11: 7:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4294837B868 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21513 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 18:07:52 -0000 Received: from du151.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.151) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 18:07:52 -0000 Message-ID: <399C29DF.D78B117@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:07:27 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Take a look at www.sun.com today. The biggest thing on it is the GNOME > footprint. > ... > (3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL > software. Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the other company is using to make its profit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 11:37:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5644237B663 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17321 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2000 18:37:17 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 17 Aug 2000 18:37:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 7354 invoked by uid 211); 17 Aug 2000 18:37:11 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:07:10 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000818000710.A7279@physics.iisc.ernet.in> References: <20000817220802.A6830@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@nwlink.com on Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 10:58:19AM -0700 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells said on Aug 17, 2000 at 10:58:19: > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Yes, but one needs a good desktop environment for desktop use, and > > twm doesn't cut it. One has to either accept GPL'd software for > > such things, or duplicate that entire effort with a BSD license. > > But FreeBSD is a server OS. > > Most everything the hackers is do is server-centric. I would not ask them > to change. Just let the KDE folks do their thing and let our port > maintainers do their's. > > In other words, we do have perfectly good desktop if you want one. In > fact, we have two. We have as many window managers as are existent. > > And so what about the GPL. Do you (you rhetorically speaking) use tar? Do > you use bash? Do you use gzip? I don't reject using good functioning > software based on license. I even pay for software that fits my needs. > > The license _is not_ the software. Raul, didn't you start this thread > with a complaint against license zeal? I did, and I still say that. I think what you say above is exactly what I am saying except the bit about it being a "server OS" -- it is, but it is also a fine desktop OS. I just have the impression that the FreeBSD "advocacy" effort doesn't push the desktop aspect enough because the nicer desktop software doesn't come from the BSD project. Strictly speaking KDE, GNOME etc aren't part of the "core Linux OS" either, if there's any such thing. Debian doesn't include KDE, and till recently many distributions didn't include Gnome. But linux news sites (eg linuxtoday, lwn) regularly report developments on all these things, and on other things like Staroffice, Mozilla, anything that's relevant to using linux, and increasingly they're also covering BSD news which isn't at all linux-related. BSD news sites like daemonnews tend to ignore anything which is not part of the "core BSD system" or a commercial software port specifically for BSD. My point was just that when even a commercial company like Sun can splash GNOME all over their main web page, eclipsing everything else on it, there's no harm if the BSD web pages, documentation, and especially the packaging and install take a little more notice of non-BSD free software that works on BSD -- the "it's in the ports/packages, go find it" attitude isn't friendly to new users. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 18:52:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7621B37BACD for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA43E6E418B for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-41.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.41]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7HNb8W29141 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:37:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA84418 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:19:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008172319.SAA84418@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-reply-to: Message from "Thomas M. Sommers" of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:07:27 EDT." <399C29DF.D78B117@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:19:41 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: > Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are > using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the > might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use > BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which > would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially > giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are > guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the > other company is using to make its profit. Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your lawyers and public relations people are. /usr/src/gnu/COPYING plainly states if you wish to use GPL'ed code in a non-GPL'ed product to contact the copyright holder and ask permission. Clearly the copyright holder is not bound by the terms of GPL. Has this not happened a number of times already with Linux-derived device drivers in FreeBSD? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 18:53:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78FAF37BCA8 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8436E3F9F for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA13595; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:31:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAizaytA; Thu Aug 17 13:31:43 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19386; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:33:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008172033.NAA19386@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sun's web site To: jcwells@nwlink.com (Jason C. Wells) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:33:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org (Arun Sharma), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Aug 17, 2000 10:58:19 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But FreeBSD is a server OS. FreeBSD is a general purpose OS which is only suitable for deployment on servers because of the dearth of good workstation software availability, which is itself a self-perpetuating prophecy brought on by statements like the one quoted above. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 18:54:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDA537BE01 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8F46E41E0 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e7I0Lv870966; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 17:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to look for work/job In-Reply-To: <20000812154045.B90230@bonsai.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Aug 2000, Steve Price wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm doing a little research and trying to pull together a list of > all online sites that a person can either find contract, part-time, > or full-time work. The sites that come to mind first are ones like > these: dice.com, elance.com, ework.com, freeagent.com, > freelanceonline.com, guru.com, hireability.com, hotjobs.com, and > monster.com. Can anyone think of any others? jobs@freebsd.org.... Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 18:55:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B943437BE6C for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59DD86E3CBC for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA35878; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:39:52 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:39:51 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <399C29DF.D78B117@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Take a look at www.sun.com today. The biggest thing on it is the GNOME > > footprint. > > > ... > > (3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL > > software. > > Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are > using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the > might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use > BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which > would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially > giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are > guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the > other company is using to make its profit. > Huh! Gnome is not Sun's code, and Sun is not opening it up. Relevant to the discussion might be staroffice - see www.openoffice.org It is dual-licenced under SISL and GPL/LGPL. In the case it's a library like thingy, it's LGPL. As Sun is going to have (just like FSF) of all contributions be assigned to themselves, so supposedly all will be available under SISL is a funny licence that is part BSD, part SCSL and part GPL. It allows you to make (and sell) binary only version, with the gotcha being that if you do distribute source, you: * have to distribute it under the same licence, no additional strings * you have to follow all the standards, or * document your deviations and make reference code to these available If sun is any sign, companies actually like finetuned licences that do just what they want them to. All opinions strictly my own. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 18:56: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.129.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9AC37BECA for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A816E38B0 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA27394; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:41:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008172033.NAA19386@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > But FreeBSD is a server OS. > > FreeBSD is a general purpose OS which is only suitable for > deployment on servers because of the dearth of good workstation > software availability, which is itself a self-perpetuating > prophecy brought on by statements like the one quoted above. Does my statement make it true or does the efforts of the people who code make it true? I really used to argue about desktop stuff. This was before KDE/Gnome hit. Then I thought a sysinstall option to install fvwm2 with a config that was BSD-ized would be "the freeBSD desktop". I actually worked on a desktop for the "Desktop Contest". The contest never did come to completion. I agree with Raul in this respect. We can help folks to understand that FreeBSD can run a cool dekstop without the "It's in the ports" mentality. This would be a good thing. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 22:21:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691B237B423 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16372; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:21:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000817231817.04ced8a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:21:02 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sun's web site Cc: Arun Sharma , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20000817220802.A6830@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:58 AM 8/17/2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >But FreeBSD is a server OS. Strongly disagree. I use FreeBSD on development workstations. >Most everything the hackers is do is server-centric. Again, I disagree. [Snip] >And so what about the GPL. Do you (you rhetorically speaking) use tar? Do >you use bash? Do you use gzip? I don't reject using good functioning >software based on license. You should. Only if we reject GPLed software will we prevent it from becoming the only choice -- that is, from depriving us of ANY choice. That is the GPL's goal, and due to acquiescence to its unethical terms it is succeeding. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 22:24:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1030A37B423 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16410; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:23:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:23:26 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , Rahul Siddharthan From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sun's web site Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <399C29DF.D78B117@mail.ptd.net> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:07 PM 8/17/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are >using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the >might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use >BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which >would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially >giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are >guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the >other company is using to make its profit. This is short-sighted thinking. The fact is that once they put their code under the GPL, they can NEVER make a profit from it even though they still hold the copyright. The GPL's "poison pill" works as much against them as against competitors. The GPL really should be called the PPL, for "Poison Pill License." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 22:29: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2177A37B423 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16442; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:28:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232506.04d0d100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:28:51 -0600 To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008172319.SAA84418@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <399C29DF.D78B117@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:19 PM 8/17/2000, David Kelly wrote: >Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You >still own it and control it. The same is true under the BSD license. >Presumably even the mods others (anonymous >contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the >revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still >free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including >developments during its GPL phase. But no one will buy it. What's more, that version must be free of any additions which were contributed by third parties under the GPL. Because this is difficult to do, the GPL in effect wrests control away from the copyright holder. The horse is out of the barn for good, and the copyright holder cannot profit from licensing the software. >YMMV, depends on how good your >lawyers and public relations people are. > >/usr/src/gnu/COPYING plainly states if you wish to use GPL'ed code in a >non-GPL'ed product to contact the copyright holder and ask permission. Knowing full well that you're likely not to be able to find the contributors and/or that at least some of them will almost certainly refuse due to GPL zealotry. What's more, because individuals' contributions are not clearly delineated, it is impossible to remove these persons' code. >Clearly the copyright holder is not bound by the terms of GPL. Has this >not happened a number of times already with Linux-derived device drivers >in FreeBSD? The GPL still sabotages any effort to use the code commercially. That is its intended purpose, and it does it quite well. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 23:32:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B0CE37B42C for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11324 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2000 06:32:48 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 2000 06:32:48 -0000 Message-ID: <399CB37A.CF1A19BA@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:54:34 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: <200008172319.SAA84418@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: > > Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are > > using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the > > might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use > > BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which > > would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially > > giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are > > guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the > > other company is using to make its profit. > > Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your > lawyers and public relations people are. Only if you hold the copyrights to the contributed code. Under current copyright law, you automatically have a copyright on your creations, even if you don't put a notice on them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 23:32:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FBAC37B43F for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11221 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2000 06:32:46 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 2000 06:32:46 -0000 Message-ID: <399CB2D3.BE634D97@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:51:47 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > > > Take a look at www.sun.com today. The biggest thing on it is the GNOME > > > footprint. > > > > > ... > > > (3) It is yet another counterexample of corporates disliking GPL > > > software. > > > > Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are > > using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the > > might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use > > BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which > > would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially > > giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are > > guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the > > other company is using to make its profit. > > > > Huh! > > Gnome is not Sun's code, and Sun is not opening it up. I didn't mean that it was; I was making a general comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Aug 17 23:39:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42CA437B43C for ; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27388 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2000 06:39:45 -0000 Received: from du06.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.6) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 18 Aug 2000 06:39:45 -0000 Message-ID: <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 02:39:18 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:07 PM 8/17/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >Companies probably prefer BSD (meaning the license) to GPL when they are > >using other people's code, but when they are opening their own code, the > >might well prefer GPL. Managment is probably worried that if they use > >BSD on their code, some other company might make a profit from it, which > >would get management in trouble with their stockholders for essentially > >giving away a valuable asset. If they use GPL however, then they are > >guaranteed that they will be able to use whatever modifications the > >other company is using to make its profit. > > This is short-sighted thinking. The fact is that once they put their > code under the GPL, they can NEVER make a profit from it even though they > still hold the copyright. The GPL's "poison pill" works as much against > them as against competitors. If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and some other company makes a killing with it, management has breached that duty. But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. Perhaps they could have made a lot of money by keeping the source closed, but no one will ever really know. In other words, using the GPL lets management cover their posteriors if they decide to open their source. I am not advocating this, but just describing what I think goes through some people's minds. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 0:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 232EA37B42C for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18816 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2000 07:21:18 -0000 Received: from sys3.physics.iisc.ernet.in (144.16.71.27) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 18 Aug 2000 07:21:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 10036 invoked by uid 211); 18 Aug 2000 07:21:18 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:51:17 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000818125117.C9961@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: "Thomas M. Sommers" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net>; from tms2@mail.ptd.net on Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 02:39:18AM -0400 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.31 i486 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thomas M. Sommers said on Aug 18, 2000 at 02:39:18: > If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can > be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a > fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and > some other company makes a killing with it, management has breached that > duty. But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other > company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. > Perhaps they could have made a lot of money by keeping the source > closed, but no one will ever really know. > > In other words, using the GPL lets management cover their posteriors if > they decide to open their source. > > I am not advocating this, but just describing what I think goes through > some people's minds. In the case of Sun, I think the case is this: (1) With GNOME they have no choice, they have to stick with the GPL. Exactly why they're embracing GNOME isn't so clear to me, but I think there's no question that even the present version of GNOME is a vast improvement over CDE. (2) With StarOffice, their target is really Microsoft, and they're using the "Linux community" to gain support and develop a reasonable userbase; using the GPL is the best way to do this. MS Office has such a huge market lead that a proprietary StarOffice has just about no chance of getting anywhere. (3) As the linux sites have been pointing out, this sort of money is really pocket change for Sun, HP, IBM et al; they're just "hedging their bets", they don't stand to lose all that much even if it doesn't work out, while they could conceivably gain a lot if it does. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 5:53:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EBF537B422 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19218; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:53:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000818064620.00dbc670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:52:50 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: The GPL is really the PPL (Was: Sun's web site) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:39 AM 8/18/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on >making much of a profit from it any more. The won't make ANY. But, worse still, they will spread the GPL, which will cut into the markets of the products from which they DO wish to profit. > If they use the GPL, they can >be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a >fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and >some other company makes a killing with it, Then they are hurt not one bit. However, no company can "make a killing with it." That other company must add substantial value, and ANY revenue it gets from that will be due to the added value, since the market value of the original code is zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Which means that the other company deserves any money it makes. >In other words, using the GPL lets management cover their posteriors if >they decide to open their source. Not true. The company is undermining its ENTIRE INDUSTRY by using the GPL. It's sort of like saying, "Yes, I killed myself, but at least I hurt my competitor a little." In short, the GPL's "poison pill" makes the entire environment toxic. It poisons the well for ALL commercial software authors. That's why the GPL should be called the PPL (Poison Pill License). >I am not advocating this, but just describing what I think goes through >some people's minds. They should be helped to see the big picture. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 7:38:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from p2.acadia.net (p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B9537B423 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 07:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smpbox.acadia.net (ip142167011048.acadia.net [142.167.11.48]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00294 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tbuswell@localhost) by smpbox.acadia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA00723 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:43:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tbuswell) Message-Id: <200008181443.KAA00723@smpbox.acadia.net> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:43:26 -0400 (EDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ted Buswell To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: cheap X terminals X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Timely considering the "Ask Slashdot" on ethernet internet appliances: onsale.com for the past couple of weeks (at least) has been moving used IBM Netstation's. I picked one up in an auction for $21. You can currently buy them for $50 (they haven't had any for auction for a couple days now). The one I got didn't include RAM, but uses 72-pin simms, which everyone has a stack of. The model you can buy includes 16MB. Basically, this unit has: 10Base-T, 1 parallel, 1 serial, 1 PCMCIA, and includes a (relatively) nice IBM keyboard and mouse. The video is low-end with 1MB, but sufficient for many tasks. The software for the unit is downloadable from IBM (100MB), and after you get it, it only took me about 2 hours to get it up and running (DHCP and NFS mounting it's software). Ignoring the great hack potential of a unit like this, it makes a great X terminal out of the box: no moving parts == nice and quiet. It looks like the Xserver portion was bought from NCD. And to keep this BSD related, the IBM documentation indicates that the kernel is BSD derived (NetBSD?). Furthermore, apparently you can do things with it like enable rshd and lprd so you can start tasks executing on the unit, and print to a printer attached to it. If only there were a cheap source for LCD VGA displays... -Ted To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 9: 4:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from power.ib.pi.cnr.it (power.ib.pi.cnr.it [146.48.73.181]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F31237B423; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host10.4ua.com by power.ib.pi.cnr.it (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14031; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:44:14 +0200 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:44:14 +0200 From: tim@communication411.com Message-Id: <966614204.dbcgof@dbcgof.mail.freeserv4u.com>. To: dbcgof@freeserv4u.com Reply-To: sold@quotepool.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Content-Type: text/html; Charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Look at this long distance plan for one low monthly tqefz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Untitled UNLIMITED Long-Distance Calling

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*NOTE* (All calls must be made within the Continental U.S.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 15:33:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB49C37B422 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 35141 invoked by uid 1142); 18 Aug 2000 22:33:19 -0000 Date: 18 Aug 2000 15:33:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 15:33:14 -0700 From: Jason Evans To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs on a laptop Message-ID: <20000818153314.G14875@blitz.canonware.com> References: <20000817130011.A59464@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008171205.IAA79923@blackhelicopters.org> <20000817152057.A60719@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000817152057.A60719@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 03:20:57PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Aug 17, 2000 at 03:20:57PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > i can see the potential for this to get out of control :-) > > here is my new plan: > dvorak layout > change caps lock to ctrl > > this should keep me busy for a while Plan to not be able to type well for at least a month. Plan to not gain full typing speed for at least several months. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 17: 9:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A40E37B42C for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA76287; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:09:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:09:19 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Ted Buswell Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cheap X terminals In-Reply-To: <200008181443.KAA00723@smpbox.acadia.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Ted Buswell wrote: : :Timely considering the "Ask Slashdot" on ethernet internet appliances: : :onsale.com for the past couple of weeks (at least) has been moving used :IBM Netstation's. I picked one up in an auction for $21. You can :currently buy them for $50 (they haven't had any for auction for a :couple days now). : There was/is a root exploit in the web-based configuration software for these. It's a temp file race, I think. It was in Bugtraq the end of last year. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 17:11:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279F837B423 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #4) id 13PwEm-000H4P-00; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 01:11:48 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA87388; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 01:11:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 01:11:47 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Jason Evans Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs on a laptop Message-ID: <20000819011146.A87344@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20000817130011.A59464@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008171205.IAA79923@blackhelicopters.org> <20000817152057.A60719@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000818153314.G14875@blitz.canonware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000818153314.G14875@blitz.canonware.com>; from jasone@canonware.com on Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 03:33:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 03:33:14PM -0700, Jason Evans wrote: | > | > here is my new plan: | > dvorak layout | > change caps lock to ctrl | | Plan to not be able to type well for at least a month. Plan to not gain | full typing speed for at least several months. is it worth it? jcm -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 17:32:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FAFB37B424 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 38065 invoked by uid 1142); 19 Aug 2000 00:32:42 -0000 Date: 18 Aug 2000 17:32:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:32:37 -0700 From: Jason Evans To: j mckitrick Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs on a laptop Message-ID: <20000818173237.J14875@blitz.canonware.com> References: <20000817130011.A59464@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200008171205.IAA79923@blackhelicopters.org> <20000817152057.A60719@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000818153314.G14875@blitz.canonware.com> <20000819011146.A87344@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20000819011146.A87344@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:11:47AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:11:47AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 03:33:14PM -0700, Jason Evans wrote: > | > > | > here is my new plan: > | > dvorak layout > | > change caps lock to ctrl > | > | Plan to not be able to type well for at least a month. Plan to not gain > | full typing speed for at least several months. > > is it worth it? In my opinion, it wasn't quite worth it, though it's definitely not worth switching back at this point (I've been using dvorak for almost two years now). There are rewards to switching, but they probably don't justify the huge effort involved. It took about a year before I could clearly type at least as well in all cases (coding, copying, composing email, etc.). I could not have done the transition at all if it hadn't been for a lull at the end of one job (I started the switch when I gave two weeks notice =) ). There is a period of time when it is very difficult to type at all, even on a qwerty keyboard. I can no longer type with any speed on qwerty. I decided against maintaining the ability to type on both layouts, because it quickly became clear that my error rate would continue to be too high to justify the switch to dvorak. This means that I don't feel comfortable any time that I sit down in front of someone else's computer. Fortunately, that isn't a common occurrence for me (I'm a programmer, not a sysadmin). On the up side, I feel less hand fatigue from typing, and my error rate is much lower than it ever was on qwerty. My error rate is lower mainly because a number of hard-wired problems I had on qwerty didn't transfer to dvorak (for example mixing up left/right hand letters (e/i, q/p)). Unfortunately, I didn't do a timed typing test before switching, but I'm pretty sure I can type faster now (on the order of 10-15% faster). If you do decide to do the switch, I have a tutorial that I can email privately. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 18:32: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8C937B422 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 18:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA28950; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 18:31:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAH7aqG4; Fri Aug 18 18:30:55 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00239; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 18:31:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200008190131.SAA00239@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sun's web site To: tms2@mail.ptd.net (Thomas M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 01:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net> from "Thomas M. Sommers" at Aug 18, 2000 02:39:18 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can > be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. If I have a beer, and I'm not going to drink it, if I piss in it, I can be pretty sure no one will drink it, either. > Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give > away their source, and some other company makes a killing with it, > management has breached that duty. Through malfeasance, by ignoring the market for the code themselves. > But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other > company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. No. They will still be guilty of malfeasance. But they will also be guilty of criminal fraud, in that they covered up their malfeasance. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:28:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B1837B42C for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-172.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.172]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7J2SpW10797; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:28:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54783; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:27:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008190227.VAA54783@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:28:51 MDT." <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232506.04d0d100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:27:53 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 05:19 PM 8/17/2000, David Kelly wrote: > > >Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > >still own it and control it. > > The same is true under the BSD license. You say that as if you think I'm defending GPL. > >Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > >contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > >revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > >free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > >developments during its GPL phase. > > But no one will buy it. Why would nobody buy a proprietary something based on GPL'ed code? Somebody needs to explain this to RedHat. And BSDi. Before they go broke. > What's more, that version must be free of any > additions which were contributed by third parties under the GPL. Because > this is difficult to do, the GPL in effect wrests control away from > the copyright holder. The horse is out of the barn for good, and the > copyright holder cannot profit from licensing the software. I disagree. See my other lengthy message. I believe the original copyright holder retains all rights and assumes the rights suckered out of those who worked as sub-slave labor on enhancements. Their work is still GPL and can not be pulled from public use once released but no where in the GPL is the licensor bound by his own terms and prevented from forking under different terms. > Knowing full well that you're likely not to be able to find the > contributors and/or that at least some of them will almost certainly > refuse due to GPL zealotry. What's more, because individuals' > contributions are not clearly delineated, it is impossible to remove > these persons' code. Back to my other message. Since when can "anonymous" hold copyright? > The GPL still sabotages any effort to use the code commercially. That is > its intended purpose, and it does it quite well. It sabotages efforts of anyone other than the original copyright holder who is the granter of the terms stipulated the GPL. It sabotages anyone else's efforts to fork a non-GPL version. But not the originator's. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:29: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BF137B424 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-172.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.172]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7J2SvW05235; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:28:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54789; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:28:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008190228.VAA54789@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: Message from "Thomas M. Sommers" of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:54:34 EDT." <399CB37A.CF1A19BA@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:28:01 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Thomas M. Sommers" writes: > David Kelly wrote: > > Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > > still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > > contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > > revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > > free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > > developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your > > lawyers and public relations people are. > > Only if you hold the copyrights to the contributed code. Under current > copyright law, you automatically have a copyright on your creations, > even if you don't put a notice on them. Lacking any other governing conditions you have some but not unlimited rights to copyright. GPL is a pre-exsiting condition. The originator's copyright is a pre-existing condition. Anonymous changes will not have a copyright and will bear the copyright of the original document as that document was distributed with one and only one copyright notice. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:29: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE56237B43E for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-172.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.172]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7J2SsW16515; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:28:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA54774; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:27:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008190227.VAA54774@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-reply-to: Message from "David Schwartz" of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:35:10 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:27:46 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > > Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > > still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > > contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > > revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > > free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > > developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your > > lawyers and public relations people are. > > Umm, how would the original author wind up with the rights to distribute > changes that others have made? Presumably, when one submits modifications to > a piece of GPL'd software, one licenses them under the GPL. While one has a certain level of automatic copyright protection on works not specifically tagged with a copyright notice, one can loose any claims by failing to assert one's rights with proper labeling. An example was when Intel lost the rights to their original 8086. Posting changes to a work which already has a copyright notice attached and not amending that notice to assert one's own claims is excellent grounds to claim one has surrendered all rights to the copyright holder in the notice. Copyright and license terms are not things the government enforces. What the government can do is to provide the judicial system for the copyright holder to enforce his rights. Would suggest you read the GPL not as manifesto from Richard Stallman, but for what it is, the terms of your right to use a copyrighted work. Only the copyright holder can enforce the terms of GPL on his work. The government can't do it. Richard Stallman can't do it. Lines 6 and 7 of the GPL stipulate only verbatim unmodified copies of the GPL document be distributed, preventing me from quoting it here. Observe that paragraph 2a mandates that one identify the changes one has made in the redistribution. Failure to comply with the terms of the license would be further grounds to argue one was anonymously yielding copyright rights. After the page break the paragraph starting at line 124 expands upon the claim of rights by stating its not to claim works entirely written by you, only the derivative works. It does bind the derivative works. Notice that paragraph 4 is talking about what a user or one creating a derivative work is allowed to do. The "voice" which is speaking is the copyright holder, the license granter, who is not bound by the terms of his own license. Paragraph 6 says if you modify my (figuratively speaking) work then you may not place any more restrictions on it that I have done. Any good lawyer should be able to twist this all the way back to the case where the mentioned "recipient" also being the "originator" who is now receiving code which is forbidden from having any more restrictions than he himself imposes, additional copyright would be an additional restriction, therefore it must be the originator's to do with as he pleases. Paragraph 10 continues to reinforce my claims by stating that if you wish to redistribute outside of the terms of the GPL you contact the copyright holder. Oops, not in exactly that language, they say "the author." Not plural authors. Search on "author" and see all uses in context refer to the copyright holder. The example copyright notice on line 294 uses "". If nothing else I think I've demonstrated the GPL document is poorly written. Apple and Sun are wise for not adopting GPL but for writing their own documents which say the same thing, clearer. Haven't heard of IBM doing likewise but IBM's lawyers are good enough to prove a cat is a dog so they don't have to. I'm not a lawyer. The only legal training I have is in the reading of contracts I have been asked to sign, and learning from the lawyers I have paid to explain such contracts to me. The GPL is not a contract I would sign. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:29: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF76737B42C for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-172.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.172]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7J2SxW28882 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA54592 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:55:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008190155.UAA54592@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-reply-to: Message from "Jason C. Wells" of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:58:19 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:55:51 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > But FreeBSD is a server OS. Of course, all good OS's are. In the Windows world the human has to serve the computer. In the Unix world computers serve the humans, as is The Right And Correct Natural Order. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:29:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hiwaay.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AFA37B43F for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-172.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.172]) by mail.hiwaay.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id e7J2T5W20215; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:29:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA54560; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:50:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <200008190150.UAA54560@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Narvi Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-reply-to: Message from Narvi of "Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:39:51 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:50:41 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi writes: > > It is dual-licenced under SISL and GPL/LGPL. In the case it's a library > like thingy, it's LGPL. As Sun is going to have (just like FSF) of all > contributions be assigned to themselves, so supposedly all will be > available under In prior version of GPL didn't they say the revisions, even the original, was assigned to FSF? Version 2, June 1991, no longer says that directly. But as I've said in other posts tonight I believe the GPL still forwards full rights of all changes to the original copyright holder who is the only one who has the legal rights to impose GPL on his code or its derivatives. Or to not impose GPL at some point. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 19:50:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7C437B424 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (d153.as28.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net [169.207.71.219]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.1) id VAA22907; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:49:28 -0500 Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27E81E2; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:49:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/16/1999 To: Jason Evans Cc: j mckitrick , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: emacs on a laptop In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:32:37 PDT." <20000818173237.J14875@blitz.canonware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:49:59 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <20000819024959.A27E81E2@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20000818173237.J14875@blitz.canonware.com>, Jason Evans wrote: } On Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:11:47AM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: } > On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 03:33:14PM -0700, Jason Evans wrote: } > | > } > | > here is my new plan: } > | > dvorak layout } > | > change caps lock to ctrl } > | } > | Plan to not be able to type well for at least a month. Plan to not gain } > | full typing speed for at least several months. } > } > is it worth it? } } In my opinion, it wasn't quite worth it, though it's definitely not worth } switching back at this point (I've been using dvorak for almost two years } now). There are rewards to switching, but they probably don't justify the } huge effort involved. } } It took about a year before I could clearly type at least as well in all } cases (coding, copying, composing email, etc.). I could not have done the } transition at all if it hadn't been for a lull at the end of one job (I } started the switch when I gave two weeks notice =) ). There is a period of } time when it is very difficult to type at all, even on a qwerty keyboard. } I can no longer type with any speed on qwerty. This was the killer for me, when I switched for a couple of months. I got to about the same speed using dvorak in that time (~75WPM) as I typed under QWERTY before the switch, but when I had to go help someone on their workstation using QWERTY it was just excruciating. } On the up side, I feel less hand fatigue from typing, and my error rate is } much lower than it ever was on qwerty. My error rate is lower mainly } because a number of hard-wired problems I had on qwerty didn't transfer to } dvorak (for example mixing up left/right hand letters (e/i, q/p)). } Unfortunately, I didn't do a timed typing test before switching, but I'm } pretty sure I can type faster now (on the order of 10-15% faster). Interesting. I never noticed any perceptible difference in hand fatigue, but it rarely bothers me using a QWERTY layout, either. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 20: 6:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 332BD37B423 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 20:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26549 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2000 03:06:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Aug 2000 03:06:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 16263 invoked by uid 211); 19 Aug 2000 03:06:37 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 08:36:37 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Kelly Cc: Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000819083637.B16235@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: David Kelly , Narvi , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200008190150.UAA54560@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200008190150.UAA54560@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 08:50:41PM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly said on Aug 18, 2000 at 20:50:41: > Narvi writes: > > > > It is dual-licenced under SISL and GPL/LGPL. In the case it's a library > > like thingy, it's LGPL. As Sun is going to have (just like FSF) of all > > contributions be assigned to themselves, so supposedly all will be > > available under > > In prior version of GPL didn't they say the revisions, even the original, > was assigned to FSF? Version 2, June 1991, no longer says that > directly. But as I've said in other posts tonight I believe the GPL > still forwards full rights of all changes to the original copyright > holder who is the only one who has the legal rights to impose GPL on > his code or its derivatives. Or to not impose GPL at some point. Not true. Contributions to GPL'd code are copyrighted by the contributor unless the contributor explicitly donates the copyright away. This is one reason why emacs and xemacs will not re-unify (unlike gcc and egcs) -- the xemacs team has not been asking contributors to transfer copyrights to the FSF. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 21:43:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 20DDC37B43C for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28142 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2000 04:43:50 -0000 Received: from du26.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.26) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 Aug 2000 04:43:50 -0000 Message-ID: <399E0F70.ACD130B0@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:39:12 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Brett Glass , Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site References: <200008190131.SAA00239@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Management has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give > > away their source, and some other company makes a killing with it, > > management has breached that duty. > > Through malfeasance, by ignoring the market for the code themselves. Not necessarily malfeasance. They could simply be in error about the potential profit to be had from the source. > > But if they use the GPL, it is very unlikely that any other > > company will make that killing, and management will be in the clear. > > No. They will still be guilty of malfeasance. But they will also > be guilty of criminal fraud, in that they covered up their malfeasance. Fraud means obtaining title to property by false pretences; it has nothing to do with the hypothetical under discussion. Cover up implies something done after an act to hide it; that also has nothing to do with the hypothetical. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 22:51:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in (theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in [144.16.71.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB54337B422 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 22:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 26844 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2000 05:51:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO theory3.physics.iisc.ernet.in) (qmailr@144.16.71.158) by theory1.physics.iisc.ernet.in with SMTP; 19 Aug 2000 05:51:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 16491 invoked by uid 211); 19 Aug 2000 05:51:35 -0000 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:21:35 +0530 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000819112135.A16479@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Thomas M. Sommers" , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <399CDA16.E14E80C9@mail.ptd.net> <200008190131.SAA00239@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200008190131.SAA00239@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Sat, Aug 19, 2000 at 01:31:48AM +0000 X-Operating-System: Linux 2.4.0-test3 i686 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Aug 19, 2000 at 01:31:48: > > If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > > making much of a profit from it any more. If they use the GPL, they can > > be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. > > If I have a beer, and I'm not going to drink it, if I piss in it, > I can be pretty sure no one will drink it, either. A totally ridiculous and irrelevant analogy, and exactly what I meant with my licensing wars comment earlier. A more hardline commercial developer may argue that BSD-licensing code is "pissing in it" because people will always prefer to use that instead of a commercial equivalent. (eg, SSH versus OpenSSH -- it's fairly clear that it was the existence of OpenSSH which forced the SSH people to change their licensing policy a few days ago.) Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 23: 9:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1299E37B423 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA19174; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:20:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Pratik Shah Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: remote installation. In-Reply-To: <20000817174127.27653.qmail@web5305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Pratik Shah wrote: > Hi > > This is the problem: > > I have a remote workstation presently loaded with fbsd > 3.4. > > I have to load it and run it with fbsd 3.3, instead. > > Can anyone suggest some way ... CVSUP it down to 3.3 and make world. WARNING: Remote install is not for the timid. Be prepared to go the server location. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 23:11:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 273F137B422 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA19388; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:24:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cel Phones Was: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008190155.UAA54592@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, David Kelly wrote: > "Jason C. Wells" writes: > > > > But FreeBSD is a server OS. > > Of course, all good OS's are. In the Windows world the human has to > serve the computer. In the Unix world computers serve the humans, as is > The Right And Correct Natural Order. :-) Now there is a bit of wisdom. Does it apply to cel phones? It seems to me cels are a great way to be enslaved. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Aug 18 23:13:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA78037B423 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:12:39 -0700 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01370; Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 23:13:43 -0700 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: David Kelly Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site Message-ID: <20000818231343.M28027@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <200008190227.VAA54774@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200008190227.VAA54774@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 09:27:46PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Aug 18, 2000 at 09:27:46PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > > Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > > > still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > > > contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > > > revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > > > free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > > > developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your > > > lawyers and public relations people are. > > > > Umm, how would the original author wind up with the rights to distribute > > changes that others have made? Presumably, when one submits modifications to > > a piece of GPL'd software, one licenses them under the GPL. > > While one has a certain level of automatic copyright protection on works > not specifically tagged with a copyright notice, one can loose any > claims by failing to assert one's rights with proper labeling. An > example was when Intel lost the rights to their original 8086. This is no longer true. From the Copyright Office's website, The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law, although it is often beneficial. Because prior law did contain such a requirement, however, the use of notice is still relevant to the copyright status of older works. Notice was required under the 1976 Copyright Act. This requirement was eliminated when the United States adhered to the Berne Convention, effective March 1, 1989. Although works published without notice before that date could have entered the public domain in the United States, the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA) restores copyright in certain foreign works originally published without notice. For further information about copyright amendments in the URAA, request Circular 38b. > Copyright and license terms are not things the government enforces. > What the government can do is to provide the judicial system for the > copyright holder to enforce his rights. Not true. There are criminal laws dealing with copyright infringment. Again, from the Copyright Office FAQ, 55. Somebody infringed my copyright. What can I do? A party may seek to protect his or her copyrights against unauthorized use by filing a civil lawsuit in Federal district court. If you believe that your copyright has been infringed, consult an attorney. In cases of willful infringement for profit, the U.S. Attorney may initiate a criminal investigation. [snip] Oh, and just one other thing. In a previous thread, someone, I think it was you, said that "anonymous" can't hold a Copyright. Sorry, again from the Copyright Office, 37. Do I have to use my real name on the form? Can I use a stage name or a pen name? There is no legal requirement that the author be identified by his or her real name on the application form. For further information, see FL 101. If filing under a fictitious name, check the "Pseudonymous" box at space 2. And also, 46. How long does copyright last? [snip] For anonymous and pseudonymous works and works made for hire, the term will be 95 years from the year of first publication or 120 years from the year of creation, whichever expires first; But as always, IANAL, thank [insert your favorite deity]. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 4:19:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2040437B422 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 04:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18344; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 05:51:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA63364; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:19:15 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:19:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Pratik Shah , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: remote installation. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > > I have to load it and run it with fbsd 3.3, instead. > > > > Can anyone suggest some way ... > > CVSUP it down to 3.3 and make world. > > WARNING: Remote install is not for the timid. Be prepared to go the server > location. The null-modem and your other colocated box can't be used (a la ftp.cdrom.com)? I can usually keep from having the person on site do anything except stick in floppies or pushing the reset button. (Hint: When rackspace is a a premium, use two 1-U servers, or a Sparc IPX or so.. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 6:37:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7576A37B423 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 06:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA66936; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:37:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:37:44 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008190150.UAA54560@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, David Kelly wrote: > Narvi writes: > > > > It is dual-licenced under SISL and GPL/LGPL. In the case it's a library > > like thingy, it's LGPL. As Sun is going to have (just like FSF) of all > > contributions be assigned to themselves, so supposedly all will be > > available under > > In prior version of GPL didn't they say the revisions, even the original, > was assigned to FSF? Version 2, June 1991, no longer says that > directly. But as I've said in other posts tonight I believe the GPL > still forwards full rights of all changes to the original copyright > holder who is the only one who has the legal rights to impose GPL on > his code or its derivatives. Or to not impose GPL at some point. > I'm pretty sure Sun knows what it is doing. So yes, theretically it might be (for all I know) that those not playing nice by the other rules get to meet with GPL ... > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > Everything written is strictly my own oppinion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 6:40:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907BB37B424 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 06:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA66948; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:39:51 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:39:51 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <20000819083637.B16235@physics.iisc.ernet.in> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > David Kelly said on Aug 18, 2000 at 20:50:41: > > Narvi writes: > > > > > > It is dual-licenced under SISL and GPL/LGPL. In the case it's a library > > > like thingy, it's LGPL. As Sun is going to have (just like FSF) of all > > > contributions be assigned to themselves, so supposedly all will be > > > available under > > > > In prior version of GPL didn't they say the revisions, even the original, > > was assigned to FSF? Version 2, June 1991, no longer says that > > directly. But as I've said in other posts tonight I believe the GPL > > still forwards full rights of all changes to the original copyright > > holder who is the only one who has the legal rights to impose GPL on > > his code or its derivatives. Or to not impose GPL at some point. > > Not true. Contributions to GPL'd code are copyrighted by the > contributor unless the contributor explicitly donates the copyright > away. This is one reason why emacs and xemacs will not re-unify > (unlike gcc and egcs) -- the xemacs team has not been asking > contributors to transfer copyrights to the FSF. > You are talking about a whole different issue than what David is talking about. He is talking about anonymous nonidentifiable contributions. > Rahul. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 7: 9: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A8237B424 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 07:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA67135; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:08:45 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:08:45 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: David Kelly Cc: David Schwartz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun's web site In-Reply-To: <200008190227.VAA54774@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Note: i am not a lawyer, and i definately don't give legal advice. On Fri, 18 Aug 2000, David Kelly wrote: > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > > Notice under GPL you do not give up the copyright on the software. You > > > still own it and control it. Presumably even the mods others (anonymous > > > contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the > > > revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still > > > free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including > > > developments during its GPL phase. YMMV, depends on how good your > > > lawyers and public relations people are. > > > > Umm, how would the original author wind up with the rights to distribute > > changes that others have made? Presumably, when one submits modifications to > > a piece of GPL'd software, one licenses them under the GPL. > > While one has a certain level of automatic copyright protection on works > not specifically tagged with a copyright notice, one can loose any > claims by failing to assert one's rights with proper labeling. An > example was when Intel lost the rights to their original 8086. > Actually, I think the case is 'could'. Under Berne, there is no losing copyrights, provided you are the author. > Posting changes to a work which already has a copyright notice attached > and not amending that notice to assert one's own claims is excellent > grounds to claim one has surrendered all rights to the copyright holder > in the notice. > Maybe. For the original author to distribute under the same licence - probably yes. > Copyright and license terms are not things the government enforces. > What the government can do is to provide the judicial system for the > copyright holder to enforce his rights. > Laws are expected to make (and enforce) these things. Inc. criminal law. Not sure how fully US implements these things. > Would suggest you read the GPL not as manifesto from Richard Stallman, > but for what it is, the terms of your right to use a copyrighted work. > Only the copyright holder can enforce the terms of GPL on his work. The > government can't do it. Richard Stallman can't do it. > Maybe. > Lines 6 and 7 of the GPL stipulate only verbatim unmodified copies of > the GPL document be distributed, preventing me from quoting it here. > 8-) Actually you may still quote. Even in the US, I think. > Observe that paragraph 2a mandates that one identify the changes one has > made in the redistribution. Failure to comply with the terms of the > license would be further grounds to argue one was anonymously yielding > copyright rights. > Stuff nobody really reads 8-) > Paragraph 6 says if you modify my (figuratively speaking) work then you > may not place any more restrictions on it that I have done. Any good Maybe it means you can release it to public domain? Just a question. > lawyer should be able to twist this all the way back to the case where > the mentioned "recipient" also being the "originator" who is now > receiving code which is forbidden from having any more restrictions than > he himself imposes, additional copyright would be an additional > restriction, therefore it must be the originator's to do with as he > pleases. > 8-) > Paragraph 10 continues to reinforce my claims by stating that if you > wish to redistribute outside of the terms of the GPL you contact the > copyright holder. Oops, not in exactly that language, they say "the > author." Not plural authors. Search on "author" and see all uses in > context refer to the copyright holder. The example copyright notice on > line 294 uses "". > Whoever wrote this part clearly overextended himself. Counterclaim would run somewhere along the lines of 'protecting the original author who would be the copyright author of teh largest amount of code'. Which is reasonable. > If nothing else I think I've demonstrated the GPL document is poorly > written. Apple and Sun are wise for not adopting GPL but for writing > their own documents which say the same thing, clearer. Haven't heard of > IBM doing likewise but IBM's lawyers are good enough to prove a cat is > a dog so they don't have to. > Somebody should have somebody do a detailed textual analysis of it. > I'm not a lawyer. The only legal training I have is in the reading of > contracts I have been asked to sign, and learning from the lawyers I > have paid to explain such contracts to me. The GPL is not a contract I > would sign. > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > All opinions strictly my own. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 8:52:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313B437B423 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03560; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 09:52:08 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000819094301.04df82b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 09:52:00 -0600 To: David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: GPL's effects on commercial development (Was: Sun's web site) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200008190227.VAA54783@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232506.04d0d100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 PM 8/18/2000, David Kelly wrote: >> >Presumably even the mods others (anonymous >> >contributors who don't go to lengths to claim their own copyright on the >> >revisions) put into it. What I'm saying is the copyright holder is still >> >free at a later date to jump back in with a non-GPL version including >> >developments during its GPL phase. >> >> But no one will buy it. > >Why would nobody buy a proprietary something based on GPL'ed code? It must be a LOT better, and even then it's a tough sell so long as the GPLed version is "good enough." It's very, VERY hard to compete with something that's free, even if its your own free something. And in the case of the GPL, it's particularly hard, because the GPL zealots will attempt to put you out of business. What's more, they won't let you incorporate their changes into the paid version. >Somebody needs to explain this to RedHat. They sure do! Red Hat is losing LOTS of money, and the GPL is why. It states frankly that it does not know if it can ever be profitable. >And BSDi. Before they go broke. BSDi has the advantage that BSD/OS is not GPLed. This is the reason why BSDi is profitable and Red Hat is not. >> What's more, that version must be free of any >> additions which were contributed by third parties under the GPL. Because >> this is difficult to do, the GPL in effect wrests control away from >> the copyright holder. The horse is out of the barn for good, and the >> copyright holder cannot profit from licensing the software. > >I disagree. See my other lengthy message. I believe the original >copyright holder retains all rights and assumes the rights suckered out >of those who worked as sub-slave labor on enhancements. Not so. All they must do is slap their own copyright notices on the files they've modified, and their changes cannot be incorporated into the paid version without permission. Which they won't give. >It sabotages efforts of anyone other than the original copyright holder >who is the granter of the terms stipulated the GPL. It sabotages anyone >else's efforts to fork a non-GPL version. But not the originator's. It sabotages the originator's attempts to do this too. And that's the intent. Stallman *wants* to sabotage commercial developers. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 15:16: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ptd.net (mail2.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3936D37B42C for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 15:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17345 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2000 22:16:03 -0000 Received: from du172.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) (204.186.33.172) by mail.ptd.net with SMTP; 19 Aug 2000 22:16:03 -0000 Message-ID: <399EF92B.E58BF78B@mail.ptd.net> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:16:27 -0400 From: "Thomas M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL is really the PPL (Was: Sun's web site) References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000818064620.00dbc670@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:39 AM 8/18/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: > > >If they are giving away their source, they probably aren't planning on > >making much of a profit from it any more. > > The won't make ANY. But, worse still, they will spread the GPL, which > will cut into the markets of the products from which they DO wish > to profit. > > > If they use the GPL, they can > >be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a > >fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and > >some other company makes a killing with it, > > Then they are hurt not one bit. A greedy shyster will argue that management breached its duty because it should have know that a killing could be made, but instead gave away the ability to make it. > However, no company can "make a killing with it." That other company > must add substantial value, and ANY revenue it gets from that will be > due to the added value, since the market value of the original code > is zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Which means that the other company > deserves any money it makes. > > >In other words, using the GPL lets management cover their posteriors if > >they decide to open their source. > > Not true. The company is undermining its ENTIRE INDUSTRY by using the > GPL. It's sort of like saying, "Yes, I killed myself, but at least I > hurt my competitor a little." But they can't get sued for that. > In short, the GPL's "poison pill" makes the entire environment toxic. > It poisons the well for ALL commercial software authors. That's why the > GPL should be called the PPL (Poison Pill License). > > >I am not advocating this, but just describing what I think goes through > >some people's minds. > > They should be helped to see the big picture. I understand your dislike of the GPL, and even agree with it up to a point (really, not as in "Up to a point, Lord Copper."). But that is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 16:27:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.sasknow.com (ren.sasknow.com [207.195.92.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAE4837B424 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 16:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by ren.sasknow.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA94764 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:30:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:30:58 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Link speed on an SDSL provisioned T1 Message-ID: Organization: SaskNow Technologies [www.sasknow.com] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, everybody.. I thought some people might find this interesting. I did some hard-core tests in terms of testing link speeds. I am on a 1.5Mbps SDSL link to my ISP in Saskatoon, SK, Canada. For the purposes of this test, I only looked at download speeds (as upload speeds are generally harder to test). I connected simultaneously to 6 FTP servers on as many unique backbones as I could find, and backgrounded the tests 10-fold in parallel. Suffice to say, I saturated the link. I pushed through approximately 125MB in total today, and about as much early in the morning yesterday, doing these tests. I'll tell you how I did them: I used ipfw to record byte counts, with rules configured using the following logic: Pass anything on the loopback device Pass anything on the local network And (with a few other counting rules) Count all traffic from anybody to LAN # Incoming total Count all traffic from LAN to anybody # Outgoing total Then follow the rest of my firewall rules. If BSD ipfw isn't fresh in your mind, 'count' rules count all traffic that matches the rule, then proceed to the next rule in sequence. Thus, a single packet can increment many count rules, but only one 'allow' or 'deny' rule. I can show you my actual ipfw ruleset if you like. Case in point, I have a reliable way to monitor traffic to one server. I then took every other interface on every other connected machine down for the duration of the tests. Thus, with the exception of an insignificant amount of RIP, ICMP, and misc traffic to our uplink gateway, ALL traffic flow occurred between the test machine and the Internet. mrtg statistics on the router very closely resemble my tests, below. For the hell of it, despite the fact that FreeBSD comes with good default network settings, I bumped the TCP send/receive windows past 32K (from 16K), and disabled TCP slowstart, for some of the trials. However, I experienced no detectable difference in throughput. I have also confirmed that the same 10/100 NIC can push and pull in excess of 75Mb/sec in local transfers (probably more; the tests there were just single peer-to-peer FTP transfers--lots of protocol and filesystem overhead), so I doubt that it's a problem with my network setup, system load or hardware. So, when I ran my ftp script and waited for all downloads to ramp up, I executed commands like ipfw show | grep ^005 && sleep 60 && ipfw show | grep ^005 (since all my count rules are in the 500's). Another thing to note, here, is YES there was a small amount of other traffic occuring, besides the FTP transfers... so we're not looking only for FTP transfer rates, here. The ipfw rules catch EVERYTHING, and we want everything to measure link speed. THEN, I proceeded to subtract the differences in incoming traffic from anybody to SaskNow. So, this will lead to the link speed over TCP, right? Right. After running over 30 trials in two separate sessions (one during peak, one during off-peak hours), I found the following. KB = 1024 bytes Kb = 1024 bits MB = 1048576 bytes (1024 kilobytes) Mb = 1048576 bits (1024 kilobits) Average transferred per one-minute trial: 7195 +/- 21 KB ** / 60 sec 119.9 +/- .35 KB/sec * 8 Kbits/KB 959.3 +/- 2.8 Kb/sec ** The reliability of these statistics is astounding. The 10 most deviant results follow: 7174 KB, 7180 KB, 7184 KB, 7186 KB, 7201 KB, 7191 KB, 7199 KB, 7198 KB, 7198 KB, 7193 KB Thus, these stats are reliable to within (maximum tolerance) 0.2%, but realistically, the average tolerance might be below 0.1%. I'm not a statistician by trade, but I don't think one could ever hope for better. Disregarding the average, let's take the highest result obtained of 7201 KB in 60 seconds. (Really, we're interested in the MAXIMUM transfer rate, right?) Doing the conversions as above, that translates into 960.1 Kb/sec. Still, the difference is small. OK, this a little far from the theoretical maximum of 1572 Kb/sec. (which I never expect to reach ;-) However, as I mentioned above, this is link speed over _TCP_. Figure in the TCP protocol overhead, as well as overhead introduced by frame headers, and the recommended number is about 12% overhead. (Or 88% of the physical link speed). Thus, 1572 Kb/sec looks more like 1367 Kb/sec for a maximum. NOW, according to the router manufacturer's (Netopia's) specifications for the 7100 series SDSL routers, 1.568Mbps is attainable to a maximum of about 9,500 wire feet. Between 9,500 and 12,500ft, the link speed drops to 1.04Mbps. See: http://www.netopia.com/equipment/routers/r7100/r7100_faq.html#speed Again taking the protocol and link overhead into account, but in reverse, 960 Kb/sec + 12% = 1.075 Kb/sec estimated "raw" transfer rate. 1075 Kb/sec * 1 Mb / 1024 Kb = 1.049 Mb/sec. This is within 1% of the maximum rated link speed past 9,500ft. Therefore, considering the 12% overhead is only an estimate, and given the extremely low variance in the transfer rates, I have come to the following conclusions: 1) I have successfully reached and sustained the downstream limit of the connection 2) That limit is, in fact, the 1.04Mb/sec limit imposed by the router at distances between 9,500ft and 12,500ft. So, I am now confident that this problem is caused by too much copper between us, or an improper setup, thereby reducing the rate. I found that the street distance over our flat city between my ISP and our office is about 5,900ft (1,800m). I had thought that this would be well within range for a full 1.5Mbps. I suppose it is possible that the wire distance is much greater than this, but I have no way to confirm or deny that. I believe our telco likes bridged taps. ;-) In any case, how cheated should I feel about only attaining 1Mbps as opposed to 1.5? So, besides moving next door to the ISP and stringing UTP through the windows, is there anything that can be done to break out of this 1.04Mbps limit? Thanks! - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 17: 0:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DDD37B42C for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24166; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:32:46 -0400 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA74002; Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:00:08 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:00:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Ryan Thompson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Link speed on an SDSL provisioned T1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan wrote: > OK, this a little far from the theoretical maximum of 1572 Kb/sec. > (which I never expect to reach ;-) However, as I mentioned above, this is > link speed over _TCP_. Figure in the TCP protocol overhead, as well as > overhead introduced by frame headers, and the recommended number is about > 12% overhead. (Or 88% of the physical link speed). Thus, 1572 Kb/sec > looks more like 1367 Kb/sec for a maximum. I've personally seen 168KB/s (1344 Kb/s) and a co-worker of mine has seen 171KB/s (1368 KB/s). I've also had Netscape tell me I was downloading StarOffice at 133KB/s, 55KB/s, and 55KB/s (simulaneous). I wonder why I don't believe it? > I found that the street distance over our flat city between my ISP and our > office is about 5,900ft (1,800m). I had thought that this would be well > within range for a full 1.5Mbps. I suppose it is possible that the wire > distance is much greater than this, but I have no way to confirm or deny > that. I believe our telco likes bridged taps. ;-) My telco cut my line when they were pulling new cable. Efficient, no? > In any case, how cheated should I feel about only attaining 1Mbps as > opposed to 1.5? Well, if you're paying for a T1, you should be getting a T1. Anything less is unacceptable. > So, besides moving next door to the ISP and stringing UTP through the > windows, is there anything that can be done to break out of this 1.04Mbps > limit? Wireless (Optical, Microwave, etc). You might be able to do it for less than wire. The costs get a little more significant when you involve amplifiers. ($200 radio, $900 amp.) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 17:22:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C71B37B43C for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06709; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:22:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000819181556.04cf48c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:21:20 -0600 To: "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL is really the PPL (Was: Sun's web site) Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <399EF92B.E58BF78B@mail.ptd.net> References: <20000816221119.B7276@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <4.3.2.7.2.20000817232139.04cf0840@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20000818064620.00dbc670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:16 PM 8/19/2000, Thomas M. Sommers wrote: >> > If they use the GPL, they can >> >be pretty sure that no one else will make one, either. Management has a >> >fiduciary duty to the shareholders. If they give away their source, and >> >some other company makes a killing with it, >> >> Then they are hurt not one bit. > >A greedy shyster will argue that management breached its duty because it >should have know that a killing could be made, but instead gave away the >ability to make it. That's actually a legitmate argument, and not that of a shyster by any means. In any event,the horse is out of the barn at that point; the hurt has already happened. If someone DOES make a killing with the softare, it does not hurt the company any more than it has already been hurt by its own foolishness. >> Not true. The company is undermining its ENTIRE INDUSTRY by using the >> GPL. It's sort of like saying, "Yes, I killed myself, but at least I >> hurt my competitor a little." > >But they can't get sued for that. Yes, actually, they can. It falls under many states' "Unfair business practices" statutes. And if the GPLed software monopolizes the market (as it has the market for UNIX C compilers), antitrust law may kick in. >I understand your dislike of the GPL, and even agree with it up to a >point (really, not as in "Up to a point, Lord Copper."). But that is >irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. Your point, as I recall, was that you thought the PPL was appealing to some foolish people within corporations because they have been led to believe that the "poison pill" might hobble competitors. I disagree. Any company that produces software is hurting itself the most when it releases PPLed code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Aug 19 17:24:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28FE637B42C for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 17:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06731; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:24:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000819182256.04c7df00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:24:02 -0600 To: David Kelly , "Thomas M. Sommers" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sun's web site Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dkelly@hiwaay.net In-Reply-To: <200008190228.VAA54789@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <399CB37A.CF1A19BA@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:28 PM 8/18/2000, David Kelly wrote: >Lacking any other governing conditions you have some but not unlimited >rights to copyright. GPL is a pre-exsiting condition. The originator's >copyright is a pre-existing condition. Anonymous changes will not have >a copyright and will bear the copyright of the original document as >that document was distributed with one and only one copyright notice. Only if they're anonymous. Even then, some of the author's rights to the work are inalienable according to the Berne Convention. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message