From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 0:30: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EB237B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:28:31 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAC8TtV16557; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:50 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Francisco Reyes Cc: Damien Tougas , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Message-ID: <20001112002950.K75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001111235855.A12313@tougas.net> <200011120655.BAA64634@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200011120655.BAA64634@sanson.reyes.somos.net>; from fran@reyes.somos.net on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 01:57:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 01:57:38AM -0500, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:58:57 -0500, Damien Tougas wrote: > > >I am just curious if there are any FreeBSD users or user groups in the > >New Jersey/New York City area. > > This gets asked a few times a year. I did it once. :-) > There have been a couple of failed attempts at creating a user > group but so far nothing. > > >If there is a good general Unix group that anyone could recommend, I > >would also be interested in that as an alternative. > > I believe there are some Linux groups, but don't know their URL. Dunno how much these guys do these says, http://www.funy.org/ -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 3:50:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3535837B4C5 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 03:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16792 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 05:18:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02625 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:49:57 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:49:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sysadmin insanity Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Netscape had the fish tank and the bus-sign... We got the "snake-cam"... If you're lucky, you'll see her climb the cord for the heater rock... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 8:14:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D76C37B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D2693D625; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:14:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:14:45 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: Greg Lehey Cc: Heredity Choice , Terry Lambert , Chris Fuhrman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) Message-ID: <20001112101445.M35537@reiters.org> References: <20001111191459.H4535@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> <001b01c04c66$e8320020$6cc6ddd1@STORK> <20001112161535.K802@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <20001112161535.K802@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 04:15:35PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com): > I didn't know that Radio Shack ever built 68000 based machines. What > was it called? When was this? > http://www.siliconspirits.com/comphist.htm#1982 January 1982: "Radio Shack introduces the TRS-80 Model 16. It uses a 16-bit Motorola MC68000 microprocessor, a Z-80 microprocessor, 8-inch floppy drives, and optional 8-MB hard drive." Also see http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/trsother.html#MOD21216 Denny -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net www.scapegoats.org Closet extrovert. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 9:59:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8813C37B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eACHx5H82340 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:59:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA68106 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:59:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:59:04 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Email addresses on web archives... Message-ID: <20001112185904.A67897@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's a nice article by Brett Glass on spam in the current issue of daemonnews. (Finally, some writing from him which I liked reading...) One useful tip was how to obfuscate your mailto: links using html codes instead of the bare ASCII characters. I did that quite quickly. Wouldn't it be a good idea for the FreeBSD project to do that too, for the email archives? Of course, there are other archives elsewhere on the net, but anyway it can't hurt. On a different topic, the bottom of www.daemonnews.org suggests that it's "powered by" four different operating systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSD/OS, Mac OS X) and "driven by" NetBSD. That can't really be true? Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 10:40:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26ECA37B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23518 invoked by uid 1003); 12 Nov 2000 18:40:09 -0000 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:40:09 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Email addresses on web archives... Message-ID: <20001112204009.A21042@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20001112185904.A67897@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001112185904.A67897@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 06:59:04PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun 2000-11-12 (18:59), Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > On a different topic, the bottom of www.daemonnews.org suggests that > it's "powered by" four different operating systems (FreeBSD, OpenBSD, > BSD/OS, Mac OS X) and "driven by" NetBSD. That can't really be true? Yeah, sure, just like websites can be "powered by vi" and "powered by coffee". The daemonnews community is driven and powered by the BSD OSen. (Actually, I noticed that too, and decided to use this argument on whoever made it first. *grin*) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 10:58:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id BD88237B4F9; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:58:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dot@dotat.at Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <20001108025613.C845@hand.dotat.at> (message from Tony Finch on Wed, 8 Nov 2000 02:56:13 +0000) Subject: Re: fortune candidate from #FreeBSD on EFNet Message-Id: <20001112185826.BD88237B4F9@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:58:26 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > >It doesn't really translate or travel very well, since the > >"his wonders to perform" was truncated, and assumes that the > >reader is either well read, Christian, or a Charleton Heston > >fan. > > Some people might consider the bible to be god's manual page, > but it looks more like Gnu info documentation to me. harumpfff....what do you expect from a lousy tranlation? ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 11:35:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.doug.net (154.209-115-209-0.interbaun.com [209.115.209.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B6937B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doug@localhost) by gw.doug.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA26831; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:35:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from doug) From: Doug MacKintosh Message-Id: <200011121935.MAA26831@gw.doug.net> Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20001111191459.H4535@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 11, 2000 7:14:59 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:35:38 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > and Microsoft was actually running a large chunk of their language > > engineering on Xenix on Sun machines, as late as 1988 (I got a call > > from a Microsoft employee wanting to buy a copy of our > > communications software for Xenix running on Sun hardware; when I > > said "What?!?", he said "Oh, that's right, it's an internal product > > only". Originally, Xenix only ran on 68000 hardware. > > Do you have any evidence for this? Admittedly, there was 68000 > hardware at the time, but it was very early, and there's no obvious > reason why Microsoft (which was definitely in charge of XENIX) would > have bothered to port to an architecture they didn't plan to use, > especially since it was big-endian and 32 bit, whereas both the PDP-11 > and i86 were little-endian and 16 bit. I'd suspect that you're > extrapolating here. Gents, My first Unix machines, which I purchased very-well-used in 1987 or so, were two M68000 (10MHz) contraptions manufactured by a company called Spectrix. They ran Microsoft Xenix (v3.2? v2.3? - I forget). The machines, I believe, were manufactured in 1981 or thereabouts. Spectrix called them model 30s. They used the Intel Multibus and had a couple dozen serial ports, 2MB of RAM, two 29MB SASI drives and a QIC tape. I heard a rumour that these boxen were actually Sun 0's or some such thing. If anyone can shed any more light on the origins of these boxes, I would love to hear about it. I no longer have the machines but I am now curious again. -- Doug -- doug mackintosh the unix geek doug@doug.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 11:52:35 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 1FE9437B479; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: des@ofug.org Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on 08 Nov 2000 19:28:19 +0100) Subject: Re: fortune candidate from #FreeBSD on EFNet Message-Id: <20001112195233.1FE9437B479@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > "Truly, O God of Israel, our Savior, you work in strange and > mysterious ways." -- Isaiah 45:15 this is just wrong. the sentence comes from the middle of a prophecy that will be / was fulfulled when Sennacherib and his army were destroyed outside of Jerusalem. Isiah is returning to the theme of 43:1-4 etc 45:14 Thus said God: The toil of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush and the Sabeans, men of stature, will pass to you and will become yours; they will follow after you and pass in chains. They will prostrate themselves before you; they will pray before you: 'Only with you [Jerusalem] is God, and there is none other, except for God'. [yes the first verse really is that long] 45:15 'Indeed, You are a God Who conceals Himself, the God of Israel is the Savior!' Where did you version come from? Truly, the translator worked in strange and mysterious ways! Mine is from the original language which I read, write and speak fluently. > > "God's ways are as hard to discern as the pathways of the wind, > and as mysterious as a tiny baby being formed in a mother's > womb." -- Ecclesiastes 11:5 11:4 "One who watches the wind will never sow, and one who keeps his eyes on the clouds will never reap." 11:5 "Just as you do not know the way of the wind, nor the bones [nature of the embryo] in a pregnant stomach, so can you never know the work of God who makes everything." 11:6 "In the morning sow your seed and in the evening be not idle, for you can not know which will succeed--this or that--or whether both are equally good." nonetheless, the others are fine for english epigrams....they just aint Text. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 12:38:37 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zeus.carroll.com (zeus.carroll.com [199.224.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862C237B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:38:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tougas.net [216.44.16.2] by zeus.carroll.com with ESMTP (8.9.3/0) id PAA10423; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dtougas@localhost) by tougas.net (8.11.0/8.9.3) id eACKXYW15488; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:33:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dtougas) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:33:34 -0500 From: Damien Tougas To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Message-ID: <20001112153333.D15454@tougas.net> References: <20001111235855.A12313@tougas.net> <200011120655.BAA64634@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <20001112002950.K75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001112002950.K75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com>; from cjclark@reflexnet.net on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 12:29:50AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 12:29:50AM -0800, Crist J . Clark wrote: >Dunno how much these guys do these says, > > http://www.funy.org/ Thanks for the link, I checked those guys out, but it appears that they kind of dissolved when some of them moved to a different state. I think I may check out the Linux stuff and see if anything turns up that interests me. -- Damien Tougas Systems Administrator Carroll-Net, Inc. http://www.carroll.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 13:51:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54EB37B4C5 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:49:58 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eACLpIV21057; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:51:18 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Damien Tougas Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Message-ID: <20001112135118.P75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001111235855.A12313@tougas.net> <200011120655.BAA64634@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <20001112002950.K75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> <20001112153333.D15454@tougas.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001112153333.D15454@tougas.net>; from damien@carroll.com on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 03:33:34PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 03:33:34PM -0500, Damien Tougas wrote: > On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 12:29:50AM -0800, Crist J . Clark wrote: > >Dunno how much these guys do these says, > > > > http://www.funy.org/ > > Thanks for the link, I checked those guys out, but it appears that > they kind of dissolved when some of them moved to a different state. Alas, yes. Alfred looked so much younger than he now does when I see him out here at the BABUG meetings. I see the page has changed... But that disturbing picture is still there. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 19:50: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA2CD37B479; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id eAD3n2t32648; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:19:02 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:19:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: des@ofug.org, tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fortune candidate from #FreeBSD on EFNet Message-ID: <20001113141902.B32175@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001112195233.1FE9437B479@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001112195233.1FE9437B479@hub.freebsd.org>; from jmb@hub.freebsd.org on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 11:52:33AM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 12 November 2000 at 11:52:33 -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >> >> "Truly, O God of Israel, our Savior, you work in strange and >> mysterious ways." -- Isaiah 45:15 > > this is just wrong. the sentence comes from the middle of a > prophecy that will be / was fulfulled when Sennacherib and his army > were destroyed outside of Jerusalem. Isiah is returning to the theme > of 43:1-4 etc > > 45:14 Thus said God: The toil of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush > and the Sabeans, men of stature, will pass to you and will become > yours; they will follow after you and pass in chains. They will > prostrate themselves before you; they will pray before you: 'Only with > you [Jerusalem] is God, and there is none other, except for God'. > > [yes the first verse really is that long] > > 45:15 'Indeed, You are a God Who conceals Himself, the God of Israel > is the Savior!' Interesting. I've dragged out a handful of bibles and find: Luther: Fürwahr, Du bist ein verborgener Gott, du Gott Israels, der Heiland. (Verily, thou art a hidden God, thou God of Israel, the Saviour). King James (authorized) Verily, thou art a God who hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. New English Bible (1970) How then canst thou be a god that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the deliverer? Strange interpretation in the NEB. I've seen problems like that before. > Where did you version come from? Truly, the translator worked > in strange and mysterious ways! Mine is from the original language > which I read, write and speak fluently. > >> "God's ways are as hard to discern as the pathways of the wind, >> and as mysterious as a tiny baby being formed in a mother's >> womb." -- Ecclesiastes 11:5 > > 11:4 "One who watches the wind will never sow, and one who keeps > his eyes on the clouds will never reap." > > 11:5 "Just as you do not know the way of the wind, nor the bones > [nature of the embryo] in a pregnant stomach, so can you never know > the work of God who makes everything." > > 11:6 "In the morning sow your seed and in the evening be not idle, > for you can not know which will succeed--this or that--or whether both > are equally good." Some version I have on line, probably King James: 11:4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. 11:6 In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good. "spirit" seems wrong in 11:5, since it doesn't follow. The rest seems close enough. > nonetheless, the others are fine for english epigrams....they > just aint Text. === root@wantadilla (/dev/ttyp0) /home/bible/oldtest 4 -> grep -i mysterious * === root@wantadilla (/dev/ttyp0) /home/bible/oldtest 5 -> Now I'm getting curious. Where did these original quotes come from? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 20:12: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400437B479; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:10:23 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAD4BhR23430; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:11:38 -0800 From: "Crist J . Clark" To: Warner Losh Cc: Wesley Morgan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ray committed Message-ID: <20001112201138.U75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <200011130259.TAA03248@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200011130259.TAA03248@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 07:59:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 12, 2000 at 07:59:07PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message Wesley Morgan writes: > : How would you say these cards compare to a wavelan or aironet? > > They suck. > > Warner C'mon, Warner. Don't hold back. Tell us how you _really_ feel. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 20:16: 5 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4977A37B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:15:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by wantadilla.lemis.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) id eAD4Fr332818 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:45:53 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:45:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Who won the US-Election website battle? (fwd) Message-ID: <20001113144553.E32175@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Rasmus Lerdorf ----- > Delivered-To: spam-l@linuxcare.com > Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:39:55 -0800 (PST) > X-Sender: > To: > Precedence: bulk > > Interesting little tidbit from the PHP mailing list... > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:14:48 +0000 > From: php@minotaur.nu > To: php-general@lists.php.net > Subject: [PHP] [On-topic] Who won the US-Election website battle? > > Hi, > > I've just seen a story on TheRegister.co.uk: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/1/14621.html > > George W. Bush's Website took a hammering .... > His campaign site took an average of 17.45 seconds to load between 9pm > and 11.30pm > What's it running on? > http://uptime.netcraft.com/graph?display=uptime&site=www.algore2000.com&find_site=GO > Windows 2000. Microsoft-IIS/5.0 > > > ... Al Gore's site threw up no such problems from fans logging on in > droves to access his site. ... as the site belonging to the Democrat > remained dead easy to get onto all night. > > So, what's Al's webmaster running? > http://uptime.netcraft.com/graph?display=uptime&site=www.algore2000.com&find_site=GO > Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) PHP/4.0.1pl2 secured_by_Raven/1.5.1 (on Linux). > > > Whoops. Sorry George. > > > It's not even easy to blame the hosting company for a poor link to > GWB's website - they are both hosted by Exodus Communications. > > Alister > ... I'm a Brit. I don't care :-) > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, e-mail: php-general-unsubscribe@lists.php.net > For additional commands, e-mail: php-general-help@lists.php.net > To contact the list administrators, e-mail: php-list-admin@lists.php.net > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 20:37: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCB837B4C5; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 20:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13vBNd-0000Iz-00; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:38:05 -0700 Message-ID: <3A0F702D.27C713F3@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:38:05 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: green@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New openssh maintainer References: <20001112183417.A55736@citusc17.usc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > I havent had time to deal with OpenSSH problems lately - I've asked > Brian Feldman to take over for me, and he's agreed. Hassle him from > now on, please :-) I say we paint the OpenSSH shed GREEN. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 12 21:27: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sanson.reyes.somos.net (freyes.static.inch.com [216.223.199.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285BF37B479 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from tomasa (tomasa.reyes.somos.net [10.0.0.11]) by sanson.reyes.somos.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA67334; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:20:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from fran@reyes.somos.net) Message-Id: <200011130520.AAA67334@sanson.reyes.somos.net> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "cjclark@alum.mit.edu" , "Crist J . Clark" Cc: "Damien Tougas" , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 00:23:35 -0500 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.10.2010) For Windows 98 (4.10.2222) In-Reply-To: <20001112002950.K75251@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:50 -0800, Crist J . Clark wrote: >Dunno how much these guys do these says, > > http://www.funy.org/ I hooked up with that group once, but a few members moved away and I have not heard much since. I can only guess that the BSDs are more of a west coast thing in the US.. in the several years I have been using FreeBSD I have seen several instances of people asking for users in the NY/NJ area, but only a handfull of people respond every time. francisco Moderator of the Corporate BSD list http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 13 17:54:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785AE37B479; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:54:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAE1u9u11639; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:56:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:56:09 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/release/scripts dokern.sh Message-ID: <20001113175609.A11594@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <200011140115.RAA17959@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011140115.RAA17959@freefall.freebsd.org>; from jkh@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:15:02PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:15:02PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > jkh 2000/11/13 17:15:02 PST >=20 > Modified files: > release/scripts dokern.sh=20 > Log: > Don't put pcm device on boot floppies (yet - it would be kinda nice to = be > able to play a little Joe Satriani during installs :-) "Hi, my name is Jordan Hubbard and I pronounce it BSD..BSD.." Kris --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoQm7gACgkQWry0BWjoQKWO3ACeP+z9GBZnXX9NcpGYMkdJDUOj JrsAniEluhiKRDqKfOm+2zH0AYrclfbs =ancT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 13 18:38:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C24437B4D7 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:38:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprintmail.com (sdn-ar-004njnbruP269.dialsprint.net [168.191.61.199]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06542; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:38:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:38:03 -0500 From: Eric Rivas X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "cjclark@alum.mit.edu" , "Crist J . Clark" , Damien Tougas , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? References: <200011130520.AAA67334@sanson.reyes.somos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes wrote: > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:50 -0800, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > >Dunno how much these guys do these says, > > > > http://www.funy.org/ > > I hooked up with that group once, but a few members moved away > and I have not heard much since. > > I can only guess that the BSDs are more of a west coast thing in > the US.. in the several years I have been using FreeBSD I have > seen several instances of people asking for users in the NY/NJ > area, but only a handfull of people respond every time. You can add one more BSD user from NJ to the list. Yeah, I think BSD is more of a West Coast thing. I have seen quite a few Linux users around my area, but no BSD users (I feel lonely). > > francisco > Moderator of the Corporate BSD list > http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Eric J. Rivas WWW: http://home.sprintmail.com/~rivas45/ ICQ: 61930546 "The right to revolt has sources deep in our history." -- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 4:10:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA50137B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 04:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D712C5730B; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:10:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:10:41 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: opentrax@email.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wizard, Experts and Guru Systems (Was Re: Any comments?) Message-ID: <20001114061041.B41102@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001113214522.B38561@peorth.iteration.net> <200011141156.DAA06893@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ibTvN161/egqYuK8" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011141156.DAA06893@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:56:46AM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:56:46AM -0800, opentrax@email.com scribbled: | As you'll see Mr. Wu, that I know you are NOT who you | say you are. Your writing style gives you away. | You can post this response, if you like; as I know | I've dealt with you before. | | If you really think I'm going to take you seriously | or waste the mailing list's time with your babble, | your'll be out in no time. | | Aka, the guy who said John Sokol and I were the | same person. In the future, you might consider | leading a real life. :-) | | Go ahead, make my day. Post this. :-) | | Jessem. What is the meaning of this? Please prove to me and the signers of my PGP key that I am not "Michael C. Wu " -- I really could not resist posting this one. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: SY/ht8nizTvWctzcXpzpKx/foPj2vC2f iQA/AwUBOhEdsHfOKcWPoS4gEQIFuQCfVkQvaZMdU6Ys8K4fTeS4htoGS38AoPpY 8CQHhToZTpHF5NDntEosYuAK =Nm+6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 4:50:33 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (mobile.wemm.org [202.12.86.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F66237B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 04:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAECnuL07140; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:50:11 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200011141250.eAECnuL07140@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Doug MacKintosh Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200011121935.MAA26831@gw.doug.net> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:49:56 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug MacKintosh wrote: > > > and Microsoft was actually running a large chunk of their language > > > engineering on Xenix on Sun machines, as late as 1988 (I got a call > > > from a Microsoft employee wanting to buy a copy of our > > > communications software for Xenix running on Sun hardware; when I > > > said "What?!?", he said "Oh, that's right, it's an internal product > > > only". Originally, Xenix only ran on 68000 hardware. > > > > Do you have any evidence for this? Admittedly, there was 68000 > > hardware at the time, but it was very early, and there's no obvious > > reason why Microsoft (which was definitely in charge of XENIX) would > > have bothered to port to an architecture they didn't plan to use, > > especially since it was big-endian and 32 bit, whereas both the PDP-11 > > and i86 were little-endian and 16 bit. I'd suspect that you're > > extrapolating here. > > Gents, > > My first Unix machines, which I purchased very-well-used in 1987 or > so, were two M68000 (10MHz) contraptions manufactured by a company > called Spectrix. They ran Microsoft Xenix (v3.2? v2.3? - I forget). The > machines, I believe, were manufactured in 1981 or thereabouts. Spectrix > called them model 30s. They used the Intel Multibus and had a couple > dozen serial ports, 2MB of RAM, two 29MB SASI drives and a QIC tape. > > I heard a rumour that these boxen were actually Sun 0's or some such thing. Dont forget the Tandy/Radio Shack Model 16. It was a 68000 based Xenix box with a Z80 "IO coprocessor". It was commercially produced and marketed. You could have three terminals, and (wait for it) 8 inch floppys (with three external drives) and even a 5 or 10MB *hard disk*... :-) I actually threw out my catalog that had photos and details from about the 1983-84 era. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 4:57:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.wetworks.org (shell.wetworks.org [63.160.175.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BE5C37B4CF for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 04:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15010 invoked from network); 14 Nov 2000 12:57:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO diskfarm.firehouse.net) (10.0.0.28) by 192.168.1.2 with SMTP; 14 Nov 2000 12:57:09 -0000 Received: (from abc@localhost) by diskfarm.firehouse.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAED13i35529; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:01:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from abc) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:01:03 -0500 From: Alan Clegg To: Peter Wemm Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) Message-ID: <20001114080103.A34676@diskfarm.firehouse.net> References: <200011121935.MAA26831@gw.doug.net> <200011141250.eAECnuL07140@mobile.wemm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200011141250.eAECnuL07140@mobile.wemm.org>; from peter@netplex.com.au on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 08:49:56PM +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Unless the network is lying to me again, Peter Wemm said: > Dont forget the Tandy/Radio Shack Model 16. It was a 68000 based Xenix box > with a Z80 "IO coprocessor". It was commercially produced and marketed. > You could have three terminals, and (wait for it) 8 inch floppys (with three > external drives) and even a 5 or 10MB *hard disk*... :-) > > I actually threw out my catalog that had photos and details from about the > 1983-84 era. I did tech support for these monsters. Biggest problem was they had a BAD habit of overwriting their boot sector. We'd charge people $175 to tell them how to 'dd' a new boot sector to their floppies. AlanC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 6:47:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from doorman.brann.org (159-199.nyc.dsl.access.net [166.84.159.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF31637B4C5 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 06:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.brann.org (freebie.brann.org [10.0.0.2]) by doorman.brann.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14937; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:47:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john@brann.org) Received: (from john@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAEElHP39468; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:47:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:47:17 -0500 From: John Brann To: Eric Rivas Cc: Francisco Reyes , "cjclark@alum.mit.edu" , "Crist J . Clark" , Damien Tougas , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Message-ID: <20001114094717.A39426@freebie.brann.org> References: <200011130520.AAA67334@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com>; from rivas45@sprintmail.com on Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 09:38:03PM -0500 Organization: Not while I'm at home X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-BETA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There are more of us than you think... Just not enough with the time / inclination to form a users group, I guess. Don't forget the good people at panix.com (my ISP for more than seven years) who are now a NetBSD shop. John On Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 09:38:03PM -0500, Eric Rivas wrote: > Francisco Reyes wrote: > > > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:29:50 -0800, Crist J . Clark wrote: > > > > >Dunno how much these guys do these says, > > > > > > http://www.funy.org/ > > > > I hooked up with that group once, but a few members moved away > > and I have not heard much since. > > > > I can only guess that the BSDs are more of a west coast thing in > > the US.. in the several years I have been using FreeBSD I have > > seen several instances of people asking for users in the NY/NJ > > area, but only a handfull of people respond every time. > > You can add one more BSD user from NJ to the list. > > Yeah, I think BSD is more of a West Coast thing. I have seen quite a > few Linux users around my area, but no BSD users (I feel lonely). > > > > > francisco > > Moderator of the Corporate BSD list > > http://www.egroups.com/group/BSD_Corporate > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > Eric J. Rivas > WWW: http://home.sprintmail.com/~rivas45/ > ICQ: 61930546 > > "The right to revolt has sources deep in our history." > -- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger jbrann@panix.com for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 7:27: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E0637B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21719; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:25:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001114081627.04785930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:25:46 -0700 To: Peter Wemm , Doug MacKintosh From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011141250.eAECnuL07140@mobile.wemm.org> References: <200011121935.MAA26831@gw.doug.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:49 AM 11/14/2000, Peter Wemm wrote: >Dont forget the Tandy/Radio Shack Model 16. It was a 68000 based Xenix box >with a Z80 "IO coprocessor". It was commercially produced and marketed. >You could have three terminals, and (wait for it) 8 inch floppys (with three >external drives) and even a 5 or 10MB *hard disk*... :-) What's more, the Z80 could run CP/M or TRSDOS (which folks called "TrashDOS") in a pinch. Handy when you needed to run WordStar. There's a lot of good info about the Model 16 and the other machines that were based on the TRS-80 Model II chassis at http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/cm/modelii.html --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 7:36: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6614C37B4CF for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21817; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:34:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001114083251.04785e50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:34:03 -0700 To: John Brann , Eric Rivas From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? Cc: Francisco Reyes , "cjclark@alum.mit.edu" , "Crist J . Clark" , Damien Tougas , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" In-Reply-To: <20001114094717.A39426@freebie.brann.org> References: <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> <200011130520.AAA67334@sanson.reyes.somos.net> <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a good friend in NYC who's just getting up to speed on BSD and could really benefit from a users' group. If there's even an occasional dinner or gathering, please let me know as I would like to send him. --Brett At 07:47 AM 11/14/2000, John Brann wrote: >There are more of us than you think... > >Just not enough with the time / inclination to form a users group, I guess. > >Don't forget the good people at panix.com (my ISP for more than seven >years) who are now a NetBSD shop. > >John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 7:45: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8522937B4F9 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA00683; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:45:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAATTailb; Tue Nov 14 08:45:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA19542; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:44:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011141544.IAA19542@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:44:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), cfuhrman@tfcci.com (Chris Fuhrman), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001111191459.H4535@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 11, 2000 07:14:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Microsoft announced Xenix on 25 Aug 1980, the same year they > > signed a contract with IBM to provide compilers for the, at > > the time, unannounced IBM PC. > > XENIX came first. I'm sure the announcement was earlier; they had an > article in the August 1980 Byte. And my best guess is that the IBM > deal was done in September 1980. It was definitely done by November, > when I heard about it. See Bill Gate's "timeline for Microsoft" on his personal web site. > > Most of the original developement was done on Sun equipment, > > What equipment did Sun have in 1980? Did they even exist? I believe the equipment was SUN 1 and SUN 2 hardware. The one that Microsoft requested product on was a Sun 3 with QIC-11 tape drive, which was the commercial model. > > and Microsoft was actually running a large chunk of their language > > engineering on Xenix on Sun machines, as late as 1988 (I got a call > > from a Microsoft employee wanting to buy a copy of our > > communications software for Xenix running on Sun hardware; when I > > said "What?!?", he said "Oh, that's right, it's an internal product > > only". Originally, Xenix only ran on 68000 hardware. > > Do you have any evidence for this? Admittedly, there was 68000 > hardware at the time, but it was very early, and there's no obvious > reason why Microsoft (which was definitely in charge of XENIX) would > have bothered to port to an architecture they didn't plan to use, > especially since it was big-endian and 32 bit, whereas both the PDP-11 > and i86 were little-endian and 16 bit. I'd suspect that you're > extrapolating here. Also on Bill Gates personal web site, and in the "History" section of the SCO web site. As a friend of mine is fond of saying "It's all out there, you just have to know how to find it". 8-). Actually, I was offered a job in the compiler group at Microsoft in the late 80's; I probably should have taken it, I'd be, uh, "more retired" now... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 7:53:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (mg136-070.ricochet.net [204.179.136.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9410337B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07168; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:55:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200011141555.HAA07168@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:55:53 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: Wizard, Experts and Guru Systems (Was Re: Any comments?) To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20001114061041.B41102@peorth.iteration.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, I'll play. Don't say you didn't ask for this. On 14 Nov, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:56:46AM -0800, opentrax@email.com scribbled: > | As you'll see Mr. Wu, that I know you are NOT who you > | say you are. Your writing style gives you away. > | You can post this response, if you like; as I know > | I've dealt with you before. > | > | If you really think I'm going to take you seriously > | or waste the mailing list's time with your babble, > | your'll be out in no time. > | > | Aka, the guy who said John Sokol and I were the > | same person. In the future, you might consider > | leading a real life. :-) > | > | Go ahead, make my day. Post this. :-) > | > | Jessem. > > What is the meaning of this? Please prove to me and the > signers of my PGP key that I am not > It truely is a pleasure that you have written to me in this fashion. It's not often that I have people of your caliber write. I want to thank you for taking the time to give me your comments on the matter I posted to -bugs and -docs. However as you prefer to carry this conversation in another ML I should let you know that I don't subscribe to -chat. Sorry, just to many other things to do. :-) With reference to you identity, I'm will take your word at face value and consider your PGP key to be authentic. I don't often orgue with 256 bytes. I don't think this is the time to start. Wouldn't you agree? Once again thanks for writing. best regards, Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 8: 2:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B7937B4C5 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA26743; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:58:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAh9ay6Z; Tue Nov 14 08:58:19 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19964; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:02:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011141602.JAA19964@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) To: stork@qnet.com (Heredity Choice) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:02:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), cfuhrman@tfcci.com (Chris Fuhrman), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <001b01c04c66$e8320020$6cc6ddd1@STORK> from "Heredity Choice" at Nov 11, 2000 09:10:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > only". Originally, Xenix only ran on 68000 hardware. > > > > Do you have any evidence for this? Admittedly, there was 68000 > > hardware at the time, but it was very early, and there's no obvious > > reason why Microsoft (which was definitely in charge of XENIX) would > > have bothered to port to an architecture they didn't plan to use, > > especially since it was big-endian and 32 bit, whereas both the PDP-11 > > and i86 were little-endian and 16 bit. I'd suspect that you're > > extrapolating here. > > I have seen Xenix on a Radioshack computer which had the 68000 processor. The Tandy 6000. It had the cutest hack, too: it ran 2 68000 processors, and when one took a protection fault, it would use the state from the other processor, one clock behind, in order to recover the otherwise destroyed instruction counter. Ah, I remember the thing well... truly a mrvel of silver and black plastic; our had a 14" HD, with a monster 10MB of space... I think this was one of the last machines where we distributed our software on 8" Shugart floppies... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 8:24:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF38437B4C5 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25561; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:20:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjoaqWX; Tue Nov 14 09:20:30 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20384; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:23:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011141623.JAA20384@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Who won the US-Election website battle? (fwd) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:23:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) In-Reply-To: <20001113144553.E32175@wantadilla.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 13, 2000 02:45:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > George W. Bush's Website took a hammering .... > > His campaign site took an average of 17.45 seconds to load between 9pm > > and 11.30pm > > What's it running on? > > http://uptime.netcraft.com/graph?display=uptime&site=www.algore2000.com&find_site=GO > > Windows 2000. Microsoft-IIS/5.0 > > > > > > ... Al Gore's site threw up no such problems from fans logging on in > > droves to access his site. ... as the site belonging to the Democrat > > remained dead easy to get onto all night. > > > > So, what's Al's webmaster running? > > http://uptime.netcraft.com/graph?display=uptime&site=www.algore2000.com&find_site=GO > > Apache/1.3.12 (Unix) PHP/4.0.1pl2 secured_by_Raven/1.5.1 (on Linux). I've been considering that it might be amusing to build a "bump on the wire" ``firewall'', whose only purpose is to get probed, probe back before answering, and then claim to be whatever OS is doing the probing. That way, sites can be 100% "politically correct", based on the observer seeing the OS they choose to run their observations from, and no one will get pissed at you for not running their favorite OS du jour... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 9:17:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC9A37B4D7 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA20630; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:10:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnZaiUN; Tue Nov 14 10:10:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22154; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:13:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011141713.KAA22154@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? To: rivas45@sprintmail.com (Eric Rivas) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:13:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: fran@reyes.somos.net (Francisco Reyes), cjclark@alum.mit.edu (cjclark@alum.mit.edu), cjclark@reflexnet.net (Crist J . Clark), damien@carroll.com (Damien Tougas), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> from "Eric Rivas" at Nov 13, 2000 09:38:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > http://www.funy.org/ > > > > I hooked up with that group once, but a few members moved away > > and I have not heard much since. > > > > I can only guess that the BSDs are more of a west coast thing in > > the US.. in the several years I have been using FreeBSD I have > > seen several instances of people asking for users in the NY/NJ > > area, but only a handfull of people respond every time. > > You can add one more BSD user from NJ to the list. > > Yeah, I think BSD is more of a West Coast thing. I have seen quite a > few Linux users around my area, but no BSD users (I feel lonely). It might be because anyone who knows FreeBSD and wants a Silicon Valley job with Silicon Valley perks, and about the same cost of living (and is tired of digging snow in the Winter), can have one. So there is a natural West-coast brain-drain, particularly for people in places like NY, NY or Taxachusetts. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 9:38:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B2B37B657 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:38:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA21197; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:36:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAjUaqoP; Tue Nov 14 10:36:27 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA22782; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:38:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011141738.KAA22782@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Source (fwd) To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:38:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: stork@qnet.com (Heredity Choice), grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), cfuhrman@tfcci.com (Chris Fuhrman), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200011141602.JAA19964@usr08.primenet.com> from "Terry Lambert" at Nov 14, 2000 04:02:14 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The Tandy 6000. It had the cutest hack, too: it ran 2 68000 > processors, and when one took a protection fault, it would use > the state from the other processor, one clock behind, in order > to recover the otherwise destroyed instruction counter. Ah, I > remember the thing well... truly a mrvel of silver and black > plastic; our had a 14" HD, with a monster 10MB of space... I > think this was one of the last machines where we distributed our > software on 8" Shugart floppies... Sorry, I misremembered this. The Tandy 6000 Xenix ran in medium model, and wasn't demand paged. The system I was thinking of was the Charles Rivers Data System machine at the Weber State University Computer Science Dept., where Wes Peters and I were first exposed to UNIX, back in 1982. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 12:18:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7342637B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 4B92F239BDB; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:18:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:18:21 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: opentrax@email.com Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wizard, Experts and Guru Systems (Was Re: Any comments?) Message-ID: <20001114121821.L8380@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20001114061041.B41102@peorth.iteration.net> <200011141555.HAA07168@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E13BgyNx05feLLmH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011141555.HAA07168@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 07:55:53AM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --E13BgyNx05feLLmH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2000-11-14 07:55 -0800, opentrax@email.com wrote: > Okay, I'll play. > Don't say you didn't ask for this. >=20 > On 14 Nov, Michael C . Wu wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2000 at 03:56:46AM -0800, opentrax@email.com scribbled: > > | As you'll see Mr. Wu, that I know you are NOT who you > > | say you are. Your writing style gives you away. > > | You can post this response, if you like; as I know > > | I've dealt with you before. > > | > > | If you really think I'm going to take you seriously > > | or waste the mailing list's time with your babble, > > | your'll be out in no time. > > | > > | Aka, the guy who said John Sokol and I were the > > | same person. In the future, you might consider > > | leading a real life. :-) > > | > > | Go ahead, make my day. Post this. :-) > > | > > | Jessem. > >=20 > > What is the meaning of this? Please prove to me and the > > signers of my PGP key that I am not > >=20 > It truely is a pleasure that you have written to me > in this fashion. It's not often that I have people > of your caliber write. I want to thank you for taking > the time to give me your comments on the matter > I posted to -bugs and -docs. However as you prefer > to carry this conversation in another ML I should > let you know that I don't subscribe to -chat. > Sorry, just to many other things to do. :-) >=20 > With reference to you identity, I'm will take your > word at face value and consider your PGP key to > be authentic. I don't often orgue with 256 bytes. > I don't think this is the time to start. > Wouldn't you agree? Jesus, what the heck are you talking about?! Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@zer0.org "You uudecode it." http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --E13BgyNx05feLLmH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iEYEARECAAYFAjoRng0ACgkQIBUx1YRd/t3KUQCeJNYx0+CpzBvuAkvmAXiQey7M OykAoI1PUygsQCwOyk3RgnUCySn63TY+iEYEARECAAYFAjoRng0ACgkQIBUx1YRd /t3KUQCfbH42xGt0vJo7apfBhQihAJNInwkAoIKSwRbiQPdCdD7GTotn4uXqRtZC =SNCq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E13BgyNx05feLLmH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 14 15:48: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB6837B479 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 13vpmX-000BVb-00; Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:46:29 +0000 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:46:29 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Who won the US-Election website battle? (fwd) Message-ID: <20001114234629.H420@hand.dotat.at> References: <20001113144553.E32175@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200011141623.JAA20384@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200011141623.JAA20384@usr08.primenet.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > >I've been considering that it might be amusing to build a "bump >on the wire" ``firewall'', whose only purpose is to get probed, >probe back before answering, and then claim to be whatever OS is >doing the probing. Good thing that Netcraft runs on FreeBSD :-) Tony. -- en oeccget g mtcaa f.a.n.finch v spdlkishrhtewe y dot@dotat.at eatp o v eiti i d. fanf@covalent.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 15 0: 5: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.babug.org (unknown [205.166.121.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1822637B479 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.babug.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA50579 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Josef Grosch Message-Id: <200011150805.AAA50579@agora.babug.org> Subject: BAFUG Announce To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 00:05:00 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the monthly BAFUG posting. It contains 3 sections; Jobs, Counter, and Retail notice. This is posted on the first of the month. If there are any questions please send them to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Thanks *** JOBS NOTICE *** San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. *** COUNTER NOTICE *** FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. *** RETAIL NOTICE *** Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. -- $Id: BafugAnnounce.txt,v 1.2 1999/10/01 07:10:24 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 15 12:12:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.registeredsite.com (mail5.registeredsite.com [209.35.159.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8C8037B4C5 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail5.registeredsite.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA18210 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 03:12:31 -0500 Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com [24.21.224.204] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AE4481100F4; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:12:52 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001115151006.017635b0@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:12:47 -0500 To: FreeBSD-Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: FreeBSD users in NJ/NYC? In-Reply-To: <200011141713.KAA22154@usr08.primenet.com> References: <3A10A58B.4031D917@sprintmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brain drain? You apparently haven't been around NYC or "Taxachusetts" in a while. The last thing those places need is more talent. :-) --Chip Morton At 12:13 PM 11/14/2000, you wrote: > > Yeah, I think BSD is more of a West Coast thing. I have seen quite a > > few Linux users around my area, but no BSD users (I feel lonely). > >It might be because anyone who knows FreeBSD and wants a >Silicon Valley job with Silicon Valley perks, and about the >same cost of living (and is tired of digging snow in the >Winter), can have one. So there is a natural West-coast >brain-drain, particularly for people in places like NY, NY >or Taxachusetts. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 15 14:17:53 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8014037B479 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id eAFMHSv25880; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:17:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:17:28 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free X servers for Windows? In-Reply-To: <20001023132415.L16719@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi all: Are there any good free X servers available for Windows? > Any user experiences out there? If not, what are the good I haven't tried it but WeirdX (http://www.jcraft.com/weirdx/) is under the GPL and is said to run under Windows 9x, NT, Me, and 2000. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 15 17:35:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B61237B4CF; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eAG1Zcd16194; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:35:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:35:38 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Patches to make witness work.. Message-ID: <20001115173538.T830@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:30:16PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * John Baldwin [001115 17:30] wrote: > > On 16-Nov-00 John Baldwin wrote: > > Erm, well, wouldn't you know it, I found a missing mtx_exit() in mawait() right > after committing 1), and now my SMP testbox seems fine. I'm trying another > kernel with witness turned on (as well as on another SMP machine), and if those > work I'll commit the changes. Awesome work John! go go go ! -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 2:35:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AF837B4D7; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03947; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:35:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Good BSD press in feedmag From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Nov 2000 11:35:27 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "The underground's latest heroes are the directors of software projects based on 4.4 BSD Lite, the free operating system pioneered at the University of California at Berkeley in the late 1970s. The gratis software churned out by projects like FreeBSD and OpenBSD is inarguably superior to most mainstream Linux distributions, both in terms of security and portability." DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 15:28: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4220C37B4C5; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24829; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:28:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17347; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:27:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:27:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200011162327.QAA17347@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC In-Reply-To: <200011162317.QAA04273@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200011161629.JAA04560@nomad.yogotech.com> <200011162317.QAA04273@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moving replies to -chat ] > Q: What is the root cause of the desire for increased default > diagnostics in GENERIC? [ SNIP ] What does this have to do with you not having the resources to dedicate to CVSup or build -current? Are you going off changing the question, so you can be 'right' again? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 15:55:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539ED37B479 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA24770; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:54:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAP7a4MF; Thu Nov 16 16:36:49 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04772; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:37:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011162337.QAA04772@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC To: nate@yogotech.com Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:37:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200011162327.QAA17347@nomad.yogotech.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 16, 2000 04:27:58 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ Moving replies to -chat ] > > > Q: What is the root cause of the desire for increased default > > diagnostics in GENERIC? > > [ SNIP ] > > What does this have to do with you not having the resources to dedicate > to CVSup or build -current? Are you going off changing the question, so > you can be 'right' again? No. I ignored the majority of your post because it was wrong, and posting a point-by-point rebuttal to -arch would have been an inappropriate use of the forum. It would also have been inappropriate to try and rebut it in other than the forum in which the post was made, so I did nothing. As a single point rebuttal, my home connection has been and remains ~28k, and my premise was predicated on both the fact that I have insufficient disk space on my scratch machines for a full tree, do not _want_ -current bits pulled into my main tree, and can afford neither the bandwidth nor the CPU cycles for what is frequently an iterative process of cvsup and build world. Your other points are equally easy to rebut. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 16:20:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869D937B479 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 16:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25682; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:20:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17742; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:20:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 17:20:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200011170020.RAA17742@nomad.yogotech.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC In-Reply-To: <200011162337.QAA04772@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200011162327.QAA17347@nomad.yogotech.com> <200011162337.QAA04772@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What does this have to do with you not having the resources to dedicate > > to CVSup or build -current? Are you going off changing the question, so > > you can be 'right' again? > > No. I ignored the majority of your post because it was wrong, No more than you complaining about how hard it is for you to help because of trumped up complaints. > As a single point rebuttal, my home connection has been and > remains ~28k That's more than adequate for the task. I ran with a 28.8K link until recently, and at times I'm using a 33.6K connection for syncing the CVS tree. (I got a new modem when lightning blew out my 28.8K USR.) >, and my premise was predicated on both the fact > that I have insufficient disk space on my scratch machines > for a full tree You don't need a full tree to test, especially if you're a clueful user. >, do not _want_ -current bits pulled into my > main tree Then quit yer bitchin about current. If you aren't willing to test the bits, then you've got *NOTHING* to complain about. >, and can afford neither the bandwidth nor the CPU > cycles for what is frequently an iterative process of cvsup > and build world. You have both (you've probably got better hardware than me), but you wouldn't admit to them. I'm still using the *ORIGINAL* FreeBSD development box (before it was called FreeBSD), a 486/66 with 16MB of memory. All I see is someone making up excuses to to anything..... Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 21:23: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC7237B4CF for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAH5OKN62459 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:24:19 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Message-ID: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="J/dobhs11T7y2rNN" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To the citizens of the United States of America, In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective today. Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchicay duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The rt. hon.Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you noticed. To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect: 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". 2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It really isn't that hard. 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the good guys. 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want you to get confused and give up half way through. 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005. 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for "sh*t". 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive Day". 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean. 10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. Thank you for your cooperation. --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoUwQMACgkQWry0BWjoQKXPNQCaA8ClqZcZx1PYj5yqixbJi7K2 yx4AniKu6PfqO1xHJZcJG3SWwjBZpeRg =etAW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --J/dobhs11T7y2rNN-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 16 23:22:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (CDR22-173.accesscable.net [24.138.22.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1902237B479 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAH7MVL28950 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:22:31 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 03:22:31 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: EvilTux ... coming soon to a browser near you ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This past week, I've had the joy of attending my first ever Comdex, and as an exhibitor nonetheless ... and, like *BSD, we're in the Linux Business Expo area ... ... one of the biggest "items" at the show is the *BSD Daemon Horns ... I sweareveryone is wearing them, even the concession stand cashiers near me ... The best yet is the booth across the way from us that has this large stuffed Tux with Daemon Horns on top ... I got a shot of it that I'mgonna post whenI get home (forgot my cable at home *sigh*) ... just thought it was cute *shrug* *grin* Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 4:31:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slkcpop3.slkc.uswest.net (mail.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5759F37B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 04:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16493 invoked by alias); 17 Nov 2000 12:31:44 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.org@fixme Received: (qmail 16469 invoked by uid 0); 17 Nov 2000 12:31:42 -0000 Received: from badialup84.slkc.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (63.225.236.84) by mail.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 17 Nov 2000 12:31:42 -0000 Message-ID: <3A152421.80504@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 05:27:13 -0700 From: Joe Warner User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE References: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Except Utah, which she does not fancy. Ok, just for that, no free tickets to the 2002 Winter Games for her! Joe Kris Kennaway wrote: > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE > > To the citizens of the United States of America, > > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus > to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your > independence, effective today. > > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchicay > duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except > Utah, which she does not fancy. Your new prime minister (The > rt. hon.Tony Blair, MP for the 97.85% of you who have until now been > unaware that there is a world outside your borders) will appoint a > minister for America without the need for further elections. Congress > and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire will be circulated > next year to determine whether any of you noticed. > > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following > rules are introduced with immediate effect: > > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. > Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be > amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, > you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up > "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with > filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and > inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". > > 2. There is no such thing as "US English". We will let Microsoft know > on your behalf. > > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. > It really isn't that hard. > > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as > the good guys. > > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The > Queen", but only after fully carrying out task 1. We would not want > you to get confused and give up half way through. > > 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one > kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a > very good game. The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world > outside your borders may have noticed that no one else plays > "American" football. You will no longer be allowed to play it, and > should instead play proper football. Initially, it would be best if > you played with the girls. It is a difficult game. Those of you > brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which is similar > to American "football", but does not involve stopping for a rest every > twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like nancies). We > are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens side by 2005. > > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons > if they give you any merde. The 98.85% of you who were not aware that > there is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. > The Russians have never been the bad guys. "Merde" is French for > "sh*t". > > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday. November 8th will be a new > national holiday, but only in England. It will be called "Indecisive > Day". > > 9. All American cars are hereby banned. They are crap and it is for > your own good. When we show you German cars, you will understand what > we mean. > > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us crazy. > > Thank you for your cooperation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 9:31:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5681937B4C5; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14610; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:59:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17116; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:30:35 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:30:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE In-Reply-To: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchicay > duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except Bollocks! :-) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 9:31:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4257437B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:31:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA07128 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:31:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:45:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE In-Reply-To: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus > to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your > independence, effective today. The networks have propogated the myth that an election outcome is determined by the networks before the ten o'clock news on Tuesday night. People have come to accept this. This is not the case. The terribleness of our purported inability to select a President is a _created_ story. We have selected a President. We just don't know the official results yet. Hey, every four years we have 8 weeks to get it figured out. My point is that a vote is not decided until all the votes are in, in every state, counted by whatever rules that state provides. What people have come to accept as fact is merely a prediction by the networks. This year is different only in that the prediction cannot yet be made by the networks. It only appears that we have taken an inordinate amount of time. Our system of selecting leaders is no different than it has ever been. The media has to make a story out of this to perpetuate the myth that elections are decided _on_ Tuesday. I am not ranting too hard here. I just want people to recognize that what the media tell us and the truth are two different things. (Pending litigations aside.) And BTW, I thought this forward was cute. I especially liked the digs on American football and wearing body armor like "nancies". :) Frankly, I have become bored with the sport I once played. I like watching basketball. A lot more happens and it happens much more quickly. Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 9:55:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7A7137B479; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:55:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eAHHtBH22110 ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:55:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id SAA02742 ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:55:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:55:10 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Message-ID: <20001117185510.A2551@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu>; from kris@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Nov 16, 2000 at 09:24:19PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway said on Nov 16, 2000 at 21:24:19: > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE I received four copies of this in two days, including this one, each from totally unrelated sources (ie, afaik, no two of the senders know each other or many common people). It's a small Internet, it seems... I also came across this one, Bill Maher on his nightly talk show, Politically Incorrect "Neither Bush nor Gore has been elected president. I know that's a great feeling, but it can't last forever." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 10:38:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from doorman.brann.org (159-199.nyc.dsl.access.net [166.84.159.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23FA37B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 10:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebie.brann.org (freebie.brann.org [10.0.0.2]) by doorman.brann.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19921 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:38:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john@brann.org) Received: (from john@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAHIcbs06034 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:38:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from john) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:38:37 -0500 From: John Brann To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Tibco RendezVous Message-ID: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Organization: Not while I'm at home X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-BETA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, A puzzling thing has happened. I work for a company which is a heavy user of Tibco's Rendezvous messaging software - not uncommon in and around Wall Street, and increasingly common elsewhere. I came to my attention (when I was installing Rendezvous on my desktop machine in the office) that there is a native FreeBSD version. That surprised me a little (on reflection, I know that Yahoo uses it, so maybe that helps to explain it) but what surprised me more was that the freebsd.org site has no references to it (Tibco isn't listed in the vendors page(s)) nor could I find any mailing list references. There isn't even a Port. (OK - I know, 'make one', I'll give it a go) Why so quiet? Here is a commercial product, natively supported on FreeBSD, without a linux version, that is a key component of a great deal of high- priced commercial developments. John -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger jbrann@panix.com for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 11:23: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (sub24-23.member.dsl-only.net [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5275A37B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0D5ED3287; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:46:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE1A63274; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:46:27 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:46:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Rick Hamell To: John Brann Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous In-Reply-To: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why so quiet? Here is a commercial product, natively supported on FreeBSD, > without a linux version, that is a key component of a great deal of high- > priced commercial developments. Hmmm.... I must have been sleeping... I've never heard of it... :) Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://www.shatteredcrystal.net/hardware ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 11:25:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5985237B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA06474; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:24:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9eayQl; Fri Nov 17 12:23:14 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA28949; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:24:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011171924.MAA28949@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC To: nate@yogotech.com Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200011170020.RAA17742@nomad.yogotech.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 16, 2000 05:20:15 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > No. I ignored the majority of your post because it was wrong, > > No more than you complaining about how hard it is for you to help > because of trumped up complaints. That's incorrect; though it has nothing to do with the present discussion, it clearly speaks to your underlying motivations. You and others know very well that I would have been on the core team from the start, had I not sacrificed my position in order to protect the project from Mike DeFazio, VP of the UNIX systems group at Novell USG (the former USL), and the executive who did the initial sign-off on the BSDi, and later UCB lawsuits. Had I been on the core team, or even contributed anything in the post acquisition phase, while still a Novell employee, my access to the USL source code would have provided a ready claim to the contamination of all the FreeBSD code. I further stayed at Novell six months longer than I would have liked to, and had to forego other offers, in order to ensure the project got the same deal as BSDi, instead of having to live with the cease and desist order that Jordan and other received via certified mail. I believe that I was instrumental in the lawsuit finally getting dropped, after personally lobbying Ray Noorda. You, Rod Grimes, and Jordan are the people I handed the patchkit off to; I handed the FAQ off to David Burgess. These, more than any single thing, save the Net/2 release and William Jolitz's original 386BSD 0.1 release, formed the basis of FreeBSD 1.0. > > As a single point rebuttal, my home connection has been and > > remains ~28k > > That's more than adequate for the task. I ran with a 28.8K link until > recently, and at times I'm using a 33.6K connection for syncing the CVS > tree. (I got a new modem when lightning blew out my 28.8K USR.) How often do you perform this process? I maintain that doing this six times in one day to catch the CVS tree in a buildable state is not practical. I further maintain that, even if you were to do this, the repeatability of your experience is low, and the first thing any "works for me here" developer is going to do is blame the unknown-to-them version of the bits you are running, until you waste another day repeating the process. > >, and my premise was predicated on both the fact > > that I have insufficient disk space on my scratch machines > > for a full tree > > You don't need a full tree to test, especially if you're a clueful user. Insisting on bug reports _only_ from clueful users is a mistake, and one I hope the project is not ready to make. To me, the addition of a lot of kernel diagnostic messages seems clearly intended as a crutch: it is to substitute information volume for clue, recognizing that an insistance on clue has not been a valid success strategy so far. > >, do not _want_ -current bits pulled into my > > main tree > > Then quit yer bitchin about current. If you aren't willing to test the > bits, then you've got *NOTHING* to complain about. You are presuming a premise for me; do not do that: it is an invalid tautology. Do not put words in my mouth. I am not "bitchin about current". I am suggesting the perhaps putting a huge number of diagnostics in the kernel as a substitute for clueful users is perhaps not the best approach for resolving the problem that the diagnostic messages (or the clueful users) are being presumed would resolve. I think the problem is better solved by ensuring repeatability using identical code at all test locations. My stated assumption here is that the real problem that people are trying to solve is to get more people providing more useful bug reports against -current, to ensure that instabilities introduced are reported and resolved quickly. > >, and can afford neither the bandwidth nor the CPU > > cycles for what is frequently an iterative process of cvsup > > and build world. > > You have both (you've probably got better hardware than me), but you > wouldn't admit to them. I'm still using the *ORIGINAL* FreeBSD > development box (before it was called FreeBSD), a 486/66 with 16MB of > memory. > > All I see is someone making up excuses to to anything..... I have faster hardware on which I do real work, but which I can not risk, since I am using the OS as a platform, not an ends in itself. My non-scratch boxes are a laptop (the fastest machine I own; it is frequently booted into Windows these days) and a Dual P90 machine I bought from Rod Grimes in 1996, which can't run -current. I have other machines, but FreeBSD doesn't run on any of their architectures, except a 166MHz Multia. My scratch box is a 486/50 EISA box with an AHC1742 and 2G of disk. You have me beat by 8MHz on bus speed and 16MHz on processor speed. My connection speed as I type this (fighting with an FTP session at the same time) is 26.4k; yours is faster by 7.2k, and you state that you only use that speed "at times". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 11:46:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6182937B479; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA15719; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:45:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAeXaaJE; Fri Nov 17 12:45:32 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29687; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:46:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011171946.MAA29687@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To: rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in (Rahul Siddharthan) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:46:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001117185510.A2551@lpt.ens.fr> from "Rahul Siddharthan" at Nov 17, 2000 06:55:10 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I received four copies of this in two days, including this one, each > from totally unrelated sources (ie, afaik, no two of the senders know > each other or many common people). It's a small Internet, it seems... You mean you aren't on Kevin Bacon's jokes mailing list? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 11:53:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E47637B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAHJr7B99776; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011171924.MAA28949@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:53:49 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, nate@yogotech.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whew, and people think bikeshed wars are bad... To clarify at least one thing, the reason that I personally would like to have INVARIANTS and a few other options in the kernel are due to the fact that the new SMP code is not entirely stable, and can give some rather cryptic crashes and behaviors that are symptoms of other harder to find problems. Enabling extra sanity checks results in many of these root problems being found easier as a bug is spotted sooner before it heads off into the weeds and breaks something else. A panic telling you that you that chooseproc() returned NULL and you are trying to schedule the NULL proces is much more helpful than getting a panic later on after you have executed some unknown amount of random code before you get a trap 12 off in lala land. Now, as for snapshots, we do have a snapshot server (current.FreeBSD.org) that keeps roughly the last 3 months of snapshots. Boot floppies don't have room for all the debugging info, so boot floppy kernels won't have the extra debugging, however the kernel that boots after the system is installed will. It is also a form of motivation for existing current users to add these options to their kernels. Now, this project isn't perfect, and its users aren't perfect. This may be a band-aid, but it will have to do until someone implements a better solution. Note "implements", not "suggests and then wanders off due to time constraints or whatever". Also note that conning^Wpersuading someone to implement a suggestion you may make qualifies as "implements" in this case. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12: 2:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935C637B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14864; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:02:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21362; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:02:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14869.36557.693564.613415@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:02:21 -0700 (MST) To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC In-Reply-To: <200011171924.MAA28949@usr08.primenet.com> References: <200011170020.RAA17742@nomad.yogotech.com> <200011171924.MAA28949@usr08.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > No. I ignored the majority of your post because it was wrong, > > > > No more than you complaining about how hard it is for you to help > > because of trumped up complaints. > > That's incorrect; though it has nothing to do with the present > discussion, it clearly speaks to your underlying motivations. > > You and others know very well that I would have been on the core > team from the start, had I not sacrificed my position in order > to protect the project from Mike DeFazio, VP of the UNIX systems > group at Novell USG (the former USL), and the executive who did > the initial sign-off on the BSDi, and later UCB lawsuits. You can speculate all you want, but it didn't happen, and whether or not it would have happened is *pure* speculation. The folks who became core members were folks who were actively involved with the day-day operations of FreeBSD, and you had *never* been involved with the day-day operations of FreeBSD. (I haven't been involved with them for years, and I have no intention on that changing.) > Had I been on the core team, or even contributed anything in the post > acquisition phase, while still a Novell employee, my access to the USL > source code would have provided a ready claim to the contamination of > all the FreeBSD code. No more so than David, Rod, or Jordan's access to old source code, such as BSD 4.[123], and SysVR3 sources. > I further stayed at Novell six months longer than I would have > liked to, and had to forego other offers, in order to ensure the > project got the same deal as BSDi, instead of having to live > with the cease and desist order that Jordan and other received > via certified mail. Again, you can choose to believe that you staying at Novell made a difference, when in fact circumstantial evidence would show otherwise (NetBSD, plus a number of other folks involvement). > I believe that I was instrumental in the lawsuit finally getting > dropped, after personally lobbying Ray Noorda. Possibly, there's no way to know. > You, Rod Grimes, and Jordan are the people I handed the patchkit > off to; Well, you handed it to me. I handed it to Rod, and Rod handed it to Jordan. > I handed the FAQ off to David Burgess. *I* handed the FAQ off to Dave. I owned the FAQ *AND* the patchkit for about 6 months (I suspect the FAQ was the reason you handed the patchkit off to me), and then handed it off to Dave, where it mostly languished because it became irrelevant almost immediately. For what it's worth, I still have a copy of the 'Unofficial 386BSD FAQ' sitting on my box. I also had a patchkit as well, although my patchkit wasn't nearly as well organized as yours (it was wrapped up in the FAQ). However, you had patches I didn't, and vice-versa. My first steps in the the patchkit was to combine all of the outstanding patches and make a 'unified' patchkit, which I did as my first task upon receiving the tools from you. Yes, what you did was important. But, as they say in the industry, 'what have you done for me lately'? You can't live in the past. > These, more than any single thing, save the Net/2 release and William > Jolitz's original 386BSD 0.1 release, formed the basis of FreeBSD 1.0. FreeBSD owes most of it's existance to the obnoxiousness of Lynn Jolitz, who is as annoying an individual as I've ever had the chance to deal with. If you wouldn't have done the patchkit, it would have been done differently, but it still would have (and was) been done, in a different format. So, having said that, I disagree with teh above statement, having been greatly involved in it. But, if it makes you feel any better, you can believe whatever you want. > > > As a single point rebuttal, my home connection has been and > > > remains ~28k > > > > That's more than adequate for the task. I ran with a 28.8K link until > > recently, and at times I'm using a 33.6K connection for syncing the CVS > > tree. (I got a new modem when lightning blew out my 28.8K USR.) > > How often do you perform this process? Daily. > I maintain that doing this six times in one day to catch the CVS tree > in a buildable state is not practical. You're the one arguing that it has to be done 6X/day. I do it once a day, and have found in the 8+ years that the tree has been completely 'broken' (in a manner than having CVS locks would fix) has happened less than two dozen times. The tree has been broken *MUCH* more than that, but that's mostly related to 'personal' issues, not technical issues. If someone checks in code that doesn't compile CVS can't fix it. If someone checks in code that compiles in their tree, but not in a 'virgin' tree, CVS can't check that either. Those kinds of breakage happens *ALL* the time in every project, and FreeBSD is no exception to that. > I further maintain that, even if you were to do this, the > repeatability of your experience is low, and the first thing any > "works for me here" developer is going to do is blame the > unknown-to-them version of the bits you are running, until you waste > another day repeating the process. Maybe a developer like yourself, but there are *thousands* of other developers throughout the entire world who have actively contributed real code to real problems on the project who would show otherwise. Yes, there are those that agree with you (Richard Wackerbath comes to mind), but IMNSHO, people like that won't be happy with *ANYTHING*, so trying to please them is nearly impossible. Even folks as difficult to work with as Matt Dillon someone get past all of the problems and have made *signficant* personal contributions to FreeBSD. If you don't want to do something, you can *always* find excuses not to do them, and you seem to have been doing this for well over 8 years. Since 1995, what visible contributions have you made to the project, short of lots of email? (Since 1997, I have made little, short of lots of email, so I'm willing to consider that I'm of little use to the project, for what it's worth.) > > >, and my premise was predicated on both the fact > > > that I have insufficient disk space on my scratch machines > > > for a full tree > > > > You don't need a full tree to test, especially if you're a clueful user. > > Insisting on bug reports _only_ from clueful users is a mistake, > and one I hope the project is not ready to make. It's a decision that's made for *ALL* software. I'm not aware of *any* software that doesn't require clueful users for useful bug reports. Even netscape's 'automatic bug reporting' software requires that the user have a properly configured system (for sending email), and that the user be able to write coherent descriptions of what triggered the bug. XI-Graphics has the same sort of problems in their 'automatic' bug reporting that happens when it crashes. You've got to write explanations of what's going on when the crash occurs, else the bug report is sent to /dev/null. > To me, the addition of a lot of kernel diagnostic messages seems > clearly intended as a crutch: it is to substitute information volume > for clue, recognizing that an insistance on clue has not been a valid > success strategy so far. Now you're contradicting yourself. Adding kernel diagnostics means the users must have 'less clue', and you're complaining about it yet above you don't want users to have to have a clue? Would you make up 'yer mind already? > > >, do not _want_ -current bits pulled into my > > > main tree > > > > Then quit yer bitchin about current. If you aren't willing to test the > > bits, then you've got *NOTHING* to complain about. > > You are presuming a premise for me; do not do that: it is an > invalid tautology. Do not put words in my mouth. If you're not willing to bring the -current bits into your tree, then you're obviously not willing to test -current bits. How is this invalid? See above. You can't test something if you aren't willing to even bring them in... Also, you've also complained about not having the 'resources' to test them. However, people with *less* resources than you are testing the bits, therefore logically speaking your statement is false, and your logic flawed. Therefore, I conclude that it's not an issue of ability, but an issue of 'willingnes'. > I think the problem is better solved by ensuring repeatability > using identical code at all test locations. The cure is worse than the solution. An engineer spends his time optimizing for the 'standard path', and you want the project to spend all of it's time optimizing for a 'rare' path. This is not the best use of resources, and would only cause the project to become that much more engendered in politics and finger-pointing than it already is, and get that much less done. This is a 'political' solution that has no engineering basis, and as such will be thrown out today, just like it has been for the last 8+ years. People can't be forced to become 'clueful'. You know it as much as I do. > > >, and can afford neither the bandwidth nor the CPU > > > cycles for what is frequently an iterative process of cvsup > > > and build world. > > > > You have both (you've probably got better hardware than me), but you > > wouldn't admit to them. I'm still using the *ORIGINAL* FreeBSD > > development box (before it was called FreeBSD), a 486/66 with 16MB of > > memory. > > > > All I see is someone making up excuses to to anything..... > > I have faster hardware on which I do real work, but which I can > not risk, since I am using the OS as a platform, not an ends in > itself. Same here. I've got a 400Mhz IBM, but it's not mine (it's Nokia's), and it's still running FreeBSD 2.2.8-stable. My only 'development' box is a 486/66, which still crunches along (albeit slowly), but it does the job. > My non-scratch boxes are a laptop (the fastest machine I own; it is > frequently booted into Windows these days) and a Dual P90 machine I > bought from Rod Grimes in 1996, which can't run -current. I have > other machines, but FreeBSD doesn't run on any of their architectures, > except a 166MHz Multia. So you're still in better shape than me, with more hardware. (Your dual P90 should still be able to run -current, just not with both CPUs.) > My scratch box is a 486/50 EISA box with an AHC1742 and 2G of > disk. You have me beat by 8MHz on bus speed and 16MHz on > processor speed. Whee, you've got a faster/wider 'bus' than me, which more than makes up for the little bit of CPU speed I have. > My connection speed as I type this (fighting with an FTP session > at the same time) is 26.4k; yours is faster by 7.2k, and you state > that you only use that speed "at times". So upgrade it. DSL is dirt cheap, and if you're really willing to help out, you can sacrifice a bit more $$ and get a faster connection. For a guy that makes as much as you do, an extra $50/month shouldn't kill you. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you aren't willing to upgrade it, then quit bitchin and live with it. It works for me, and it works for a *heck* of alot of European users who also have to pay for the amount of bytes they download, and you don't see them complaining about it. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12: 7:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B6D37B479; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA14304; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:03:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAJIaG_r; Fri Nov 17 12:41:54 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29639; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:45:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011171945.MAA29639@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE To: kris@catonic.net (Kris Kirby) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:45:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG (Kris Kennaway), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kirby" at Nov 17, 2000 05:30:35 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchicay > > duties over all states, commonwealths and other territories. Except > > Bollocks! Don't be so hasty. It means we can refuse to let her land in the country, like Belize did back in the late 70's. Being able to keep her out of the country might be worth the price. PS: It's pretty obvious now, after 224 years of constituted government, that taxation _with_ representation sucks just as much as taxation _without_ representation; if it gets rid of capital gains taxes, then I say we go for it... 8^p Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12:17:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 267FA37B4CF for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15107; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:14:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21452; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:14:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14869.37279.358941.976183@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:14:23 -0700 (MST) To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Nate Williams , Poul-Henning Kamp , mark@grondar.za, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. In-Reply-To: <20001117141037.E19895@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20001117135523.B20231@futuresouth.com> <26172.974492540@critter> <14869.36912.901949.718314@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001117141037.E19895@prism.flugsvamp.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ -moved to chat ] > > > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP machines > > > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". > > > >> > > > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) > > > > > > > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) > > > > > > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... > > > > How about 'slushycounter()'? > > falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) randotonic()? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12:33:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E185E37B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAHKWUB01114; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14869.37279.358941.976183@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:33:11 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, mark@grondar.za, Poul-Henning Kamp , Jonathan Lemon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Nov-00 Nate Williams wrote: >> > > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP >> > > >> machines >> > > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". >> > > >> >> > > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) >> > > > >> > > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) >> > > >> > > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... >> > >> > How about 'slushycounter()'? >> >> falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) > > randotonic()? my_green_bikshed_function() -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12:34:32 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2D437B4C5; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15442; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:34:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21585; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:34:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14869.38479.739838.961241@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:34:23 -0700 (MST) To: John Baldwin Cc: Nate Williams , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. In-Reply-To: References: <14869.37279.358941.976183@nomad.yogotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > > On 17-Nov-00 Nate Williams wrote: > >> > > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP > >> > > >> machines > >> > > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) > >> > > > > >> > > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) > >> > > > >> > > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... > >> > > >> > How about 'slushycounter()'? > >> > >> falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) > > > > randotonic()? > > my_green_bikshed_function() Oooh, ooh, I retrace all of mine and vote for that one. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 12:36:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C48637B479; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id eAHKaIH32569 ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:36:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA08401 ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:36:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:36:18 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Message-ID: <20001117213618.A8331@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20001117185510.A2551@lpt.ens.fr> <200011171946.MAA29687@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011171946.MAA29687@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 07:46:27PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Nov 17, 2000 at 19:46:27: > > I received four copies of this in two days, including this one, each > > from totally unrelated sources (ie, afaik, no two of the senders know > > each other or many common people). It's a small Internet, it seems... > > You mean you aren't on Kevin Bacon's jokes mailing list? You mean, everyone else was, but knew I wasn't, so sent it to me? R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 13:20:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.102.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A588737B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eAHLKFx88776; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:20:15 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: gdunn@mac.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OT: Culture (Was: BSD toques - You must be Canadian, Eh?) Message-ID: <20001117132015.A88589@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <14868.47082.281149.170978@guru.mired.org> <00111710180401.03598@shf102107.hi.pac.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <00111710180401.03598@shf102107.hi.pac.army.mil>; from gdunng@mac.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:10:57AM -1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat, where OT isn't. ] On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:10:57AM -1000, Gary Dunn wrote: > What's really weird is that kids over here (Honolulu) wear these hats just > because they look "kewel" even though it's 80 F. outside and the nearest snow > is three thousand miles away. Slaves to fashion. I think the nearest snow is a lot closer than that. http://www.cfht.hawaii.edu/misc/summitview.html -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 13:30:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hub.lovett.com (hub.lovett.com [216.60.121.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBCB37B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ade by hub.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13wt5V-000Edl-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:30:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:30:25 -0600 From: Ade Lovett To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. Message-ID: <20001117153025.Q47823@FreeBSD.org> References: <20001117135523.B20231@futuresouth.com> <26172.974492540@critter> <14869.36912.901949.718314@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001117141037.E19895@prism.flugsvamp.com> <14869.37279.358941.976183@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14869.37279.358941.976183@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:14:23PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:14:23PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > [ -moved to chat ] > > > > > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP machines > > > > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". > > > > >> > > > > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) > > > > > > > > > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) > > > > > > > > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... > > > > > > How about 'slushycounter()'? > > > > falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) > > randotonic()? nasdaq() But remember, past performance is no guarantee. Your counter may go down as well as up. Yadda, yadda.. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 14:22:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F141F37B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA18881; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:16:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAx9aGqH; Fri Nov 17 15:12:23 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA04059; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:13:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011172213.PAA04059@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC To: nate@yogotech.com Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:13:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14869.36557.693564.613415@nomad.yogotech.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 17, 2000 01:02:21 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ... core team stuff ... ] > You can speculate all you want, but it didn't happen, and whether or not > it would have happened is *pure* speculation. The folks who became core > members were folks who were actively involved with the day-day > operations of FreeBSD, and you had *never* been involved with the > day-day operations of FreeBSD. I was invited. It may have been just a hat tip, or it may not have, but I was invited. > > Had I been on the core team, or even contributed anything in the post > > acquisition phase, while still a Novell employee, my access to the USL > > source code would have provided a ready claim to the contamination of > > all the FreeBSD code. > > No more so than David, Rod, or Jordan's access to old source code, such > as BSD 4.[123], and SysVR3 sources. You should have been in Mike DeFazio's office with me, arguing in my favor, then. I suspect that your speculation is incorrect. > > I further stayed at Novell six months longer than I would have > > liked to, and had to forego other offers, in order to ensure the > > project got the same deal as BSDi, instead of having to live > > with the cease and desist order that Jordan and other received > > via certified mail. > > Again, you can choose to believe that you staying at Novell made a > difference, when in fact circumstantial evidence would show otherwise > (NetBSD, plus a number of other folks involvement). I got 386BSD, NetBSD, and FreeBSD all the same deal. Everyone had already gotten cease and desist letters, except BSDi, at the time I went into his office. A Novell VP (not DeFazio) ended up fired, based on Noorda wanting the suit dropped. I lobbied for 3 months straight, and had over 9 very long meetings with Noorda and DeFazio over the issue. Caldera Linux was formed by my coworkers over the issue of not being able to do or participate in or promote anything that competed with UnixWare, which was a reversal of Ray's long time "coopetition" directive by executives like Mike DeFazio. Ray was an initial investor in Caldera over this. > > I believe that I was instrumental in the lawsuit finally getting > > dropped, after personally lobbying Ray Noorda. > > Possibly, there's no way to know. Ask Ray or Mike. > *I* handed the FAQ off to Dave. I owned the FAQ *AND* the patchkit for > about 6 months (I suspect the FAQ was the reason you handed the patchkit > off to me), and then handed it off to Dave, where it mostly languished > because it became irrelevant almost immediately. For what it's worth, I > still have a copy of the 'Unofficial 386BSD FAQ' sitting on my box. I got rid of the FAQ after I started on the patchkit. It is much easier to maintain something than it is to create it in the first place. I've been involved in the creation of at least 6 large scale Open Source projects. Ask Andrew Tridgell who pestered him until he released his DEC LANMan compatability code that he had mentioned casually on Usenet 2 years prior, for one example. > I also had a patchkit as well, although my patchkit wasn't nearly as > well organized as yours (it was wrapped up in the FAQ). However, you > had patches I didn't, and vice-versa. My first steps in the the > patchkit was to combine all of the outstanding patches and make a > 'unified' patchkit, which I did as my first task upon receiving the > tools from you. > > Yes, what you did was important. But, as they say in the industry, > 'what have you done for me lately'? You can't live in the past. I've actually done a huge amount of stuff. I generally use one of several pseudonyms or submissions through others to do it, so people like you can't bring baggage to the party. I actually have a not insiginificant amount of bug fixes of mine in Linux, among other places. I'm not the type to blow my own horn; I'm sure most people are hearing about all of this for the first time in this thread. > > These, more than any single thing, save the Net/2 release and William > > Jolitz's original 386BSD 0.1 release, formed the basis of FreeBSD 1.0. > > FreeBSD owes most of it's existance to the obnoxiousness of Lynn Jolitz, > who is as annoying an individual as I've ever had the chance to deal > with. If you wouldn't have done the patchkit, it would have been done > differently, but it still would have (and was) been done, in a different > format. Lynn had one Usenet diatribe, written in anger, during a family crisis. I personally have no problem with Lynn; perhaps you and I are just cut from different cloth. I think the overwhelming number of personal attacks on Lynn by people on Usenet, as a result of that one posting, and the grudges these people were willing to hold for (apparently) forever, were the reason that Bill Jolitz revoked his permission for a 0.1.5 386BSD release. FreeBSD exists because Bill Jolitz refused to let the patchkit people use the name "386BSD" after many of them attacked his wife in a public forum. If permission to use the name had not been withdrawn, the name "FreeBSD" may never have been coined. > So, having said that, I disagree with teh above statement, having been > greatly involved in it. But, if it makes you feel any better, you can > believe whatever you want. Thanks for your permission. > > > > As a single point rebuttal, my home connection has been and > > > > remains ~28k > > > > > > That's more than adequate for the task. I ran with a 28.8K link until > > > recently, and at times I'm using a 33.6K connection for syncing the CVS > > > tree. (I got a new modem when lightning blew out my 28.8K USR.) > > > > How often do you perform this process? > > Daily. Daily on a 28.8k line? If so, I would hope you would share your secret with the rest of us. > > I maintain that doing this six times in one day to catch the CVS tree > > in a buildable state is not practical. > > You're the one arguing that it has to be done 6X/day. I do it once a > day, and have found in the 8+ years that the tree has been completely > 'broken' (in a manner than having CVS locks would fix) has happened less > than two dozen times. You should note that I am not currently suggesting CVS locks, even though any true computer scientist knows that eliminating race conditions is a Good Thing(tm). > The tree has been broken *MUCH* more than that, but that's mostly > related to 'personal' issues, not technical issues. If someone checks > in code that doesn't compile CVS can't fix it. If someone checks in > code that compiles in their tree, but not in a 'virgin' tree, CVS can't > check that either. These are the issues which result in snapshots being a better choice for testing than local cvsup + build world's. You are agreeing with my premise. Now if you would only agree that a way that would eliminate a "try it again, it works for me" sent to the bug reporter is a good idea, we will have found common ground. All I'm suggesting is that (1) snapshots be the preferred thing to test -- not cvsup'ed, locally built GENERIC's with an obscene amount of console messages -- and, that (2) snapshots have some half-life, so that a developer can grab the snapshot that is having the problem and see if it _really_ "works for me", to be able to determine immediately if the problem is that the code used to build the snapshot is bad for all hardware, or if it only breaks the failing test hardware. Without this, the diagnostic process results in iterative and time wasting finger pointing: "your code breaks!" -- "no, you're using inconsitant code!" -- "am not!" -- "are too!" -- "am not!" -- "are t... oh, I guess there is a bug". > Those kinds of breakage happens *ALL* the time in every project, and > FreeBSD is no exception to that. No, They Do Not. They are much more frequent in software projects, true, but they are an artifact of process and tools permitting such mistakes, not the laws of probability making them inevitable. I have never worked for an engineering organization where it was permissable to check in code before compiling and at least unit testing it, until very, very recently. Taking 40 engineers and making them sit on their thumbs until Bob gets back from windsurfing and fixes his mistake is unacceptable. In a commercial organization, let's say that an average engineer salaray was $100k a year. That makes my overhead for employing that engineer, including facilities charges, insurance, employer tax contributions, etc., ~$200k a year. Out of that year, there are 2080 hours (40hrs/wk x 52 wks) - 80hrs (2wks vacation). We can call that ~2000hrs. So my outlay is $100/hr/engineer. A one day breakage in the tree is 8hrs; with 40 engineers, this is a cost of $32k per such breakage. How many man hours are avaialable to the FreeBSD project, and how many are lost to such "breakage"? The project certainly has many more engineers, at greatly reduced per diem time comitment? These people are donating the equivalent of $100 per one of their work hours to the project. How much of this capital is being lost or squandered through poor process? How many more productive contributed work hours would exist, were there process in place to prevent such problems? I guarantee you that in any _real world_ engineering organization, management acts to institute process to minimize these events: it is their fiduciary responsibility to do so, and they will be fired for shirking it; I have personally moved someone under me in a lateral move (they were still a useful resource) to get them out from under responsibilities which they were unable to handle. If they hadn't been a useful resource laterally, I would have had no compunction about letting them go, for the good of the overall organization: _I_ had a fiduciary responsibility to the 15 people who reported to me to ensure that they had jobs the next week, month, and year. > > I further maintain that, even if you were to do this, the > > repeatability of your experience is low, and the first thing any > > "works for me here" developer is going to do is blame the > > unknown-to-them version of the bits you are running, until you waste > > another day repeating the process. > > Maybe a developer like yourself, but there are *thousands* of other > developers throughout the entire world who have actively contributed > real code to real problems on the project who would show otherwise. You are assuming, incorrectly, that your testers are developers, rather than people trying to contribute where they can, instead of where they can't. It's a nice bar to hold up as an ideal, but it's not a reasonable one to hold up, if you want to speak to practicality and the best utilization of the resources which are available to you. I think that the FreeBSD project has been long unable to attract the technical writers, marketing people, and other people who are _not_ developers, to a large extent as a result of holding out a uniform standard for all contributors in a very narrow area. This, regardless of their abilty to contribute at a very high level of quality elsewhere. A number of College technical writing courses actually assign coursework that amounts to documenting various aspects of Linux; yet I see no similar inroads into "non nerd-dom" by the FreeBSD project, proper. > Yes, there are those that agree with you (Richard Wackerbath comes to > mind), but IMNSHO, people like that won't be happy with *ANYTHING*, so > trying to please them is nearly impossible. As you gave your permission, I give my permission for you to hold this opinion, even though I vehemently disagree with it. 8-). > Even folks as difficult to work with as Matt Dillon someone get past all > of the problems and have made *signficant* personal contributions to > FreeBSD. Yet there are others who have failed to leap this hurdle, not being the track star Matt Dillon is, but being good or even excellent athletes in their own right. It is a mistake to make the environment unpleasent for all but Jesse Owens. He may win his event and set a world record, but it is the _team_ who wins the track meet, not one individual set above the others. > If you don't want to do something, you can *always* find excuses not to > do them, and you seem to have been doing this for well over 8 years. > > Since 1995, what visible contributions have you made to the project, > short of lots of email? > > (Since 1997, I have made little, short of lots of email, so I'm willing > to consider that I'm of little use to the project, for what it's worth.) I saved Jack Vogel's SMP work, and in June of 1996 did some updating of it, which became the basis of the initial FreeBSD SMP project. I participated in many architectural discussions, online and offline, including the recent threads design, as of last year. I have provided (admittedly minor) patches for things like newfs and the VM cache coherency problem with sub-block fragments in NFS (PHK reworked these patches, but the problem identification and some ugly patches that worked were mine). I've done many other small patches. I've done 4 man pages that I can count easily; I think I've submitted more. And yes, I've sent a lot of email; much of it educational to new people who were given terse, short, and largely useless answers. I have examples as recently as last week on this, where someone was being bullied instead of informed in -hackers, and the bullies got into a shouting match with Jesus Monroy, instead of answering the original question in any meaningful manner. You can also see a number of contributions at the page http://www.freebsd.org/~terry/ --though I have not updated these since the stupid SSL stuff went into effect, making updating them nearly impossible, so these are somewhat dated. I've done a lot of work on making the jail stuff usable, though I have only offered that code to a few people so far, rather than giving it to the project (see also "SSL"). I've given FreeBSD patches to MySQL, Sendmail, Bind, and about a dozen other Open Source projects. Me and Jeremey Allison were the people who brought the FreeBSD pthreads code into full compliance with the Draft 4 standard, back in 1998; before that, it was unusable. It's my patches to the mutex initialization code that made the Moscow Center for Supercomputing Activities STL work with FreeBSD's Draft 4 pthreads implementation (before that, the STL code required full compliance). This is why why Cyrus ACAP ended up working on FreeBSD (it was Jeremy Allison's patches to ACAP to make it work with GCC at all that revived the Cyrus ACAP project; I had a minor hand in some of those, as well). I was the initial and most vocal proponent of getting Soft Updates code into FreeBSD; it was intended as a soloution for reducing InterJet hardware costs, but if I hadn't worked on an FS that had Soft Updates in it before (I was a tiny, tiny contributor to the Soft Updates code itself, in that case: almost all of the real work was done by Matt Day), the issue would never have been raised at all. What do you think of OpenLDAP's continued support for FreeBSD? Ever wonder why? Go look at their CVS repository and see what code they first imported on top of the UMICH sources; FreeBSD is credited. Who did that 120k of "FreeBSD" patches come from? It's easy to maintain something, once someone makes the thing work in the first place... but Open Source projects do not start without working code. I've evangelized FreeBSD significantly to commercial and other organizations alike. And I've studied Open Source social organizations, and modelled mathematically what makes them tick. Without this understanding, there's a lot of stuff that people try to do which is inherently ineffective, and there's no obvious reason why. I've greased the gears; I don't know anyone else who could have done this _intentionally_. > > Insisting on bug reports _only_ from clueful users is a mistake, > > and one I hope the project is not ready to make. > > It's a decision that's made for *ALL* software. I'm not aware of *any* > software that doesn't require clueful users for useful bug reports. > Even netscape's 'automatic bug reporting' software requires that the > user have a properly configured system (for sending email), and that the > user be able to write coherent descriptions of what triggered the bug. Netscape is not a good example of good engineering practice. The "TalkBack" option consistently fails on my Windows 98 box (it crashes, just like Netscape did). > XI-Graphics has the same sort of problems in their 'automatic' bug > reporting that happens when it crashes. You've got to write > explanations of what's going on when the crash occurs, else the bug > report is sent to /dev/null. I have never really believed in the "TalkBack" model of support, and don't intend to start believing in it until the technology improves. If what you say about XI is true, then they clearly have not implemented their code well enough, since it should be capable of providing sufficient information. If it's not capable of doing that, then it's useless. The _only_ piece of information external to it (which it should be able to get without pestering a user) should be the email address of the user for them to contact when they have a fixed version of the software for the user to try ("try" assumes that they were unable to repeat it locally, which sohuld be their first choice: they should send a fixed piece of software, not merely an attempt at one). > > To me, the addition of a lot of kernel diagnostic messages seems > > clearly intended as a crutch: it is to substitute information volume > > for clue, recognizing that an insistance on clue has not been a valid > > success strategy so far. > > Now you're contradicting yourself. Adding kernel diagnostics means the > users must have 'less clue', and you're complaining about it yet above > you don't want users to have to have a clue? Would you make up 'yer mind > already? I am not contradicting myself. You assume, incorrectly, that a notoriously lossy data channel (a human) is somehow a better communication medium than apriori control of initial conditions (e.g. everyone uses the same code for testing, reporting bugs, verifying whether a bug is universal or machine specific). I maintain that it is not. > > You are presuming a premise for me; do not do that: it is an > > invalid tautology. Do not put words in my mouth. > > If you're not willing to bring the -current bits into your tree, then > you're obviously not willing to test -current bits. How is this > invalid? This should be obvious to you. I can test them without them in my tree, using a snapshot built from them from a centralized snapshot tree. > See above. You can't test something if you aren't willing to even bring > them in... Yes, you can. People test programs without source code all the time. > Also, you've also complained about not having the 'resources' to test > them. However, people with *less* resources than you are testing the > bits, therefore logically speaking your statement is false, and your > logic flawed. Therefore, I conclude that it's not an issue of ability, > but an issue of 'willingnes'. You are still crediting me with resources I do not have, and you are crediting these tests with utility which, other than developers being testers, that the tests themselves do not have. > > I think the problem is better solved by ensuring repeatability > > using identical code at all test locations. > > The cure is worse than the solution. An engineer spends his time > optimizing for the 'standard path', and you want the project to spend > all of it's time optimizing for a 'rare' path. This is not the best use > of resources, and would only cause the project to become that much more > engendered in politics and finger-pointing than it already is, and get > that much less done. > > This is a 'political' solution that has no engineering basis, and as > such will be thrown out today, just like it has been for the last 8+ > years. This is incorrect. If the only thing that changed was that instead of being told to resup, and retry, the user was told that the first thing they should do is try a snapshot and report results, the developer and the user would immediately be on the same page with regard to what is being tested, and the developer would have a known source base from which to mobilize effort (assuming the problem was not locally repeatable for them). In addition, if debugging versions of the kernel had been built at the same time, a crash-dump of the failing system could be post-mortem'ed by the developer, since the dump and debugging images could be guaranteed to be correlated. > People can't be forced to become 'clueful'. You know it as much as I > do. I fully agree. But there is more than one way to resolve this problem: putting a bunch of diagnostics in the kernel is not the only possible soloution to the problem, and I submit that it is certainly not the best available, for little effort. There is other low hanging fruit. > > My non-scratch boxes are a laptop (the fastest machine I own; it is > > frequently booted into Windows these days) and a Dual P90 machine I > > bought from Rod Grimes in 1996, which can't run -current. I have > > other machines, but FreeBSD doesn't run on any of their architectures, > > except a 166MHz Multia. > > So you're still in better shape than me, with more hardware. (Your dual > P90 should still be able to run -current, just not with both CPUs.) It is not a scratch box, it is a production SMB, NFS, DHCP, and bootp server. > > My scratch box is a 486/50 EISA box with an AHC1742 and 2G of > > disk. You have me beat by 8MHz on bus speed and 16MHz on > > processor speed. > > Whee, you've got a faster/wider 'bus' than me, which more than makes up > for the little bit of CPU speed I have. Your memory bus is faster than mine. I/O to disk is not the bottleneck. The memory bus on both sisytems is the same width. > > My connection speed as I type this (fighting with an FTP session > > at the same time) is 26.4k; yours is faster by 7.2k, and you state > > that you only use that speed "at times". > > So upgrade it. DSL is dirt cheap, and if you're really willing to help > out, you can sacrifice a bit more $$ and get a faster connection. For a > guy that makes as much as you do, an extra $50/month shouldn't kill you. I do not live next door to a LATE. I am as rural as rural Utah or Montanna, with regards to DSL. > If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. If you aren't > willing to upgrade it, then quit bitchin and live with it. It works for > me, and it works for a *heck* of alot of European users who also have to > pay for the amount of bytes they download, and you don't see them > complaining about it. Find someone to sell it to me, with the California PUC tarrifs imposing sever penalties for any tarrifed speed being measured as less than the tarrif rates (which is why DSL is zoned by distance from a LATE in California, instead of available as "best possible"), and I will buy it from them. Next, I suppose you will tell me that I shuld move next door to a LATE, and that "If you aren't willing to move, quit bitchin". I hear that goes over real well in Afghanastan, and that people are taking your advice in droves and moving to within 1 mile of a US LATE to help the FreeBSD project, despite the H1B visa situation... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 14:51:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from diablo.dircon.net (desk108.ch.dircon.net [195.157.3.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0336837B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:51:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by diablo.dircon.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id BA09A1B22E; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:51:43 +0000 From: Mark Blackman To: John Brann Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous Message-ID: <20001117225143.A3526@diablo.dircon.net> References: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org>; from john@brann.org on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:38:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently discovered that a CRM package called "rightnow web" is also available for FreeBSD (www.rightnow.com) - Mark On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:38:37PM -0500, John Brann wrote: > Hi, > > A puzzling thing has happened. I work for a company which is a heavy user > of Tibco's Rendezvous messaging software - not uncommon in and around > Wall Street, and increasingly common elsewhere. > > I came to my attention (when I was installing Rendezvous on my desktop > machine in the office) that there is a native FreeBSD version. > > That surprised me a little (on reflection, I know that Yahoo uses it, so > maybe that helps to explain it) but what surprised me more was that the > freebsd.org site has no references to it (Tibco isn't listed in the > vendors page(s)) nor could I find any mailing list references. There isn't > even a Port. (OK - I know, 'make one', I'll give it a go) > > Why so quiet? Here is a commercial product, natively supported on FreeBSD, > without a linux version, that is a key component of a great deal of high- > priced commercial developments. > > John > -- > Unreal City, > Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, > > finger jbrann@panix.com for pgp public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 15: 5:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60D737B4C5; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10054; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:04:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAeEaOlt; Fri Nov 17 16:03:37 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05502; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:04:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200011172304.QAA05502@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC To: jhb@FreeBSD.org (John Baldwin) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:04:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.org, nate@yogotech.com In-Reply-To: from "John Baldwin" at Nov 17, 2000 11:53:49 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > To clarify at least one thing, the reason that I personally would > like to have INVARIANTS and a few other options in the kernel are > due to the fact that the new SMP code is not entirely stable, and > can give some rather cryptic crashes and behaviors that are > symptoms of other harder to find problems. Enabling extra sanity > checks results in many of these root problems being found easier > as a bug is spotted sooner before it heads off into the weeds and > breaks something else. A panic telling you that you that > chooseproc() returned NULL and you are trying to schedule the NULL > proces is much more helpful than getting a panic later on after > you have executed some unknown amount of random code before you > get a trap 12 off in lala land. This is all solid engineering ground. I only had reservations about "DIAGNOSTIC", with regards to it changing code paths. I don't think that "DIAGNOSTIC" should be included. My only comment on the process was to suggest that the options not be in "GENERIC", per se. I suggested the use of the name "SNAPSHOT", instead, e.g.: >-- Makefile fragment ------------------------------------------- SNAPSHOT: GENERIC cp GENERIC SNAPSHOT echo "option FOO" >> SNAPSHOT echo "option FEE" >> SNAPSHOT ... <-- Makefile fragment ------------------------------------------- Obviously, the paths would have to be corrected, but you could put whatever additional options you wanted into a snapshot during the build process, without modifying "GENERIC" to the point that it was no longer generic. > Now, as for snapshots, we do have a snapshot server > (current.FreeBSD.org) that keeps roughly the last 3 months of > snapshots. Boot floppies don't have room for all the debugging > info, so boot floppy kernels won't have the extra debugging, > however the kernel that boots after the system is installed will. My suggestion here was a bit more complex. Having symbols there is not the same as having a -g compiled kernel with the ability to do source exeamination of a crash dump, or even a crash report with a program counter. My suggestion was to change the (perhaps snapshot-only, perhaps not) build process to build kernel's -g. The process would be: 1) Build a -g kernel (kernel.debug) 2) strip -d -o kernel.nodebug kernel.debug 3) strip -o kernel kernel.nodebug #3 is what goes on the floppies; #2 is what gets installed. #1 is a _new_ file that's added seperately to the FTP archive, so that a developer could better analyse a crash dump or bug report. > Also note that conning^Wpersuading someone to implement a > suggestion you may make qualifies as "implements" in this case. Uh, how about changing the build and archival process to include #1? It's unfortunately something I have no control over at all. We could do a survey in 6 months, assuming people start getting pointed to snapshots to use for bug reporting pruposes when a bug occurs. If it turns out that it hasn't bee useful then you can revert the process, no harm, no foul. As far as the "SNAPSHOT"/"GENERIC" thing, I think it's new implementation, either way, so going one way instead of the other is not a hardship. PS: Are the snapshot dates accurate source tree dates? They would need to be, if you wanted to rebuild a particular snapshot form the source tree, and get an identical image (except for the file dates, of course)... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 15:12:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.smed.com (smtp.smed.com [12.20.51.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB6AF37B4C5 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpgate.shrmed.com (keymaster.smed.com [12.20.51.2]) by smtp.smed.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DFD31622C for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from iesa14.shrmed.com (iesa14.shrmed.com [10.1.99.114]) by smtpgate.shrmed.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18754 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:12:13 -0500 From: Joe.Warner@smed.com Received: from Deimos.smed.com (unverified) by iesa14.shrmed.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:11:04 -0500 Received: by Deimos.smed.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.5 (863.2 5-20-1999)) id 8525699A.007F26AB ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 18:08:49 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: SMS To: Mark Blackman Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, John Brann Message-Id: <8525699A.007EF1FD.00@Deimos.smed.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:09:13 -0700 Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I recently discovered that a CRM package called "rightnow web" is >also available The Daemon hides in more places than most people realize. Unfortunately, he hasn't gotten the publicity he deserves. But...the times are a changin. 8^} Joe |--------+--------------------------> | | Mark Blackman | | | | | | | | | 11/17/00 03:51 | | | PM | | | | |--------+--------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: John Brann | | cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (bcc: Joe | | Warner/SMS) | | Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous | >---------------------------------------------------------| I recently discovered that a CRM package called "rightnow web" is also available for FreeBSD (www.rightnow.com) - Mark On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:38:37PM -0500, John Brann wrote: > Hi, > > A puzzling thing has happened. I work for a company which is a heavy user > of Tibco's Rendezvous messaging software - not uncommon in and around > Wall Street, and increasingly common elsewhere. > > I came to my attention (when I was installing Rendezvous on my desktop > machine in the office) that there is a native FreeBSD version. > > That surprised me a little (on reflection, I know that Yahoo uses it, so > maybe that helps to explain it) but what surprised me more was that the > freebsd.org site has no references to it (Tibco isn't listed in the > vendors page(s)) nor could I find any mailing list references. There isn't > even a Port. (OK - I know, 'make one', I'll give it a go) > > Why so quiet? Here is a commercial product, natively supported on FreeBSD, > without a linux version, that is a key component of a great deal of high- > priced commercial developments. > > John > -- > Unreal City, > Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, > > finger jbrann@panix.com for pgp public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 15:19:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CDA37B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAHNKMI77511; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:20:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:20:21 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Mark Blackman Cc: John Brann , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous Message-ID: <20001117152021.A77439@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> <20001117225143.A3526@diablo.dircon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001117225143.A3526@diablo.dircon.net>; from mark.blackman@dircon.net on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:51:43PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:51:43PM +0000, Mark Blackman wrote: > I recently discovered that a CRM package called "rightnow web" is > also available for FreeBSD (www.rightnow.com) This stuff doesn't magically appear on freebsd.org unless people submit the entries for the gallery and/or ports for the ports collection. We're not mind-readers..users or companies need to tell us about the cool things they are doing with FreeBSD. I believe there is a submission mechanism on the website gallery page, and port submissions can be made using send-pr. Kris --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoVvTUACgkQWry0BWjoQKXeiwCdGjwgR383KgN7azJEU2LDojhz UVoAnAt7UGsrxeNJYZkmIjmRsgl/m8YZ =htJs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 15:23:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EA737B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAHNMpB07602; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200011172304.QAA05502@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Nov-00 Terry Lambert wrote: >> To clarify at least one thing, the reason that I personally would >> like to have INVARIANTS and a few other options in the kernel are >> due to the fact that the new SMP code is not entirely stable, and >> can give some rather cryptic crashes and behaviors that are >> symptoms of other harder to find problems. Enabling extra sanity >> checks results in many of these root problems being found easier >> as a bug is spotted sooner before it heads off into the weeds and >> breaks something else. A panic telling you that you that >> chooseproc() returned NULL and you are trying to schedule the NULL >> proces is much more helpful than getting a panic later on after >> you have executed some unknown amount of random code before you >> get a trap 12 off in lala land. > > This is all solid engineering ground. I only had reservations > about "DIAGNOSTIC", with regards to it changing code paths. I > don't think that "DIAGNOSTIC" should be included. It won't be. I've had sufficient feedback on that. Instead I'll track down any INVARIANTS type code that is currently conditional on DIAGNOSTIC and have it depend on INVARIANTS instead. >> Now, as for snapshots, we do have a snapshot server >> (current.FreeBSD.org) that keeps roughly the last 3 months of >> snapshots. Boot floppies don't have room for all the debugging >> info, so boot floppy kernels won't have the extra debugging, >> however the kernel that boots after the system is installed will. > > My suggestion here was a bit more complex. Having symbols there > is not the same as having a -g compiled kernel with the ability to > do source exeamination of a crash dump, or even a crash report > with a program counter. > > My suggestion was to change the (perhaps snapshot-only, perhaps > not) build process to build kernel's -g. The process would be: > > 1) Build a -g kernel (kernel.debug) > 2) strip -d -o kernel.nodebug kernel.debug > 3) strip -o kernel kernel.nodebug > >#3 is what goes on the floppies; #2 is what gets installed. #1 > is a _new_ file that's added seperately to the FTP archive, so > that a developer could better analyse a crash dump or bug report. This is pretty much what will happen. All that needs to be added (and it is rather trivial and something I had thought of doing) is to install the kernel.debug that is built and stick it in / as kernel.debug and kernel.GENERIC.debug. > PS: Are the snapshot dates accurate source tree dates? They > would need to be, if you wanted to rebuild a particular snapshot > form the source tree, and get an identical image (except for > the file dates, of course)... Yes. Also, the snapshots are a full release, including source, so one could always grab the source tarballs from the snapshot, untar them, and compile a test kernel. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 17:38: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (cm-24-246-28-166.toney.mediacom.ispchannel.com [24.246.28.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7943137B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:38:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eAI1bDS83724; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:37:13 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200011180137.eAI1bDS83724@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:13:08 GMT." <200011172213.PAA04059@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:37:13 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > > > That's more than adequate for the task. I ran with a 28.8K link until > > > > recently, and at times I'm using a 33.6K connection for syncing the CVS > > > > tree. (I got a new modem when lightning blew out my 28.8K USR.) > > > > > > How often do you perform this process? > > > > Daily. > > Daily on a 28.8k line? If so, I would hope you would share your > secret with the rest of us. Try it Terry. Cvsup isn't much slower over a 28.8k modem than with a 500k cable modem. I did it that way myself for years as 10 to 15 minutes per day while surfing usenet was better than 10's of hours on releases. I'm going to enjoy my cablemodem tonight to suck down a copy of Darwin. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 17 17:51: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE5E37B479 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAI1q7E61074; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:52:06 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@yogotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Turning on debugging in GENERIC Message-ID: <20001117175206.A48151@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <14869.36557.693564.613415@nomad.yogotech.com> <200011172213.PAA04059@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200011172213.PAA04059@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:13:08PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:13:08PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Daily on a 28.8k line? If so, I would hope you would share your > secret with the rest of us. It should take about 5 or 10 minutes. The exception (as has been pointed out already) is when CVS tags go down, and every file in the tree gets touched (or when a large vendor import goes in). Thats a function of CVS really, though - the distribution mechanism (cvsup) is fairly efficient. Kris --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoV4MYACgkQWry0BWjoQKWMmwCfUen4VA8haGpS7R/vmEY+sJrH tAEAn047ZaZ0hhmzivTFzBHzliHmJNoF =/pQa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 4: 8: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D9C37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 04:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from parish ([62.255.97.141]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with ESMTP id <20001118120758.EFSJ277.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@parish>; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:07:58 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eAIC7wV00310; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:07:58 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:07:58 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Message-ID: <20001118120758.A254@parish> References: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@nwlink.com on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 09:45:08AM -0800 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 09:45:08AM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/vfd.gif -- 4.4 - The number of the Beastie ________________________________________________________________ 51.44°N FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org 2.057°W My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark mailto:marko@freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 9:50: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from diablo.dircon.net (desk108.ch.dircon.net [195.157.3.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B567D37B479; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 09:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by diablo.dircon.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B500B1B22E; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:49:59 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:49:59 +0000 From: Mark Blackman To: Kris Kennaway Cc: John Brann , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tibco RendezVous Message-ID: <20001118174959.A8518@diablo.dircon.net> References: <20001117133837.A5894@freebie.brann.org> <20001117225143.A3526@diablo.dircon.net> <20001117152021.A77439@citusc17.usc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001117152021.A77439@citusc17.usc.edu>; from kris@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 03:20:21PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org right. i agree completely. I only discovered on friday and honestly wasn't being critical of anybody. I was under the impression that it was a vendor's job to submit these. If the FreeBSD project is happy to take these submissions from a unconnected/unknown 3rd party, I will happily submit it. - Mark On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 03:20:21PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 10:51:43PM +0000, Mark Blackman wrote: > > I recently discovered that a CRM package called "rightnow web" is > > also available for FreeBSD (www.rightnow.com) > > This stuff doesn't magically appear on freebsd.org unless people > submit the entries for the gallery and/or ports for the ports > collection. We're not mind-readers..users or companies need to tell us > about the cool things they are doing with FreeBSD. I believe there is > a submission mechanism on the website gallery page, and port > submissions can be made using send-pr. > > Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 11:33:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE4837B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eAIJVoB29869; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eAIJSOg14719; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A160633.CFAE57F8@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:28:24 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. Cc: Nate Williams , mark@grondar.za, Jonathan Lemon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Nov-00 Wes Peters wrote: > John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 17-Nov-00 Jonathan Lemon wrote: >> > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:08:16PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >> >> > >> >> Ok, I just thought the "mono" in his function name is for >> >> > >> >> monotonic. >> >> > >> >> If >> >> > >> >> you are staying on one processor it will work, but if the >> >> > >> >> timestamps >> >> > >> >> have scheduling inbetween the timestamps and you land on a >> >> > >> >> different >> >> > >> >> processor it won't be monotonic anymore. >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >It's close enough. :) >> >> > >> >> >> > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP >> >> > >> machines >> >> > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) >> >> > > >> >> > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) >> >> > >> >> > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... >> >> >> >> How about 'slushycounter()'? >> > >> > falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) >> >> Let's just go back to CS 101 days and call it my_function(). > > Sorry, Mr. Baldwin, you just got a "D" in your assignment. Good thing I've already graduated then. :) > Since the function appears to return an increasing nonsensical counter, > "foo" seems somehow appropriate. Depends on what school you attended. 'qux' is another decent candidate. :-P -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 13:36:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A5F437B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19393 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:36:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 14:36:09 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan Hubbard's preview of Darwin just went up at http://salon.com/tech/review/2000/11/17/hubbard_osx/index.html Overall, it's a good analysis -- especially the last section. However, the article was marred by one EXTREMELY disturbing section in which Jordan beat the drum for the FSF's software -- licensed under an unethical "poison pill" license which runs counter to the BSD philosophy -- rather than for BSD-licensed equivalents. Jordan writes: >Of course, the proof that I was working with a real operating system would >be to compile something -- to get some of my favorite Unix-ish software >running on this system. So I promptly fetched the source code to the GNU >Project's bash 2.04, my favorite shell and one that didn't happen to be >included with OS X. I unpacked it without any trouble. (Let's hear it for >GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components!) If Jordan is to be a cheerleader -- which he does well when he deigns to do it -- it would be nice if he at least cheered for the right team. The FSF would love to wipe BSD off the face of the planet, since it inconveniently interferes with Richard Stallman's anti-business, anti-programmer agenda. The last thing it needs is encouragement or PR from the one camp that actually delivers truly free software. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 15:57:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id A803A37B479; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:57:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: kris@FreeBSD.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <20001116212419.A62405@citusc17.usc.edu> (message from Kris Kennaway on Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:24:19 -0800) Subject: Re: Fwd: NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE Message-Id: <20001118235721.A803A37B479@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:57:21 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. > Then look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be > amazed at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. Generally, > you should raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. Look up > "vocabulary". Using the same twenty seven words interspersed with > filler noises such as "like" and "you know" is an unacceptable and > inefficient form of communication. Look up "interspersed". > alu....ali.....alu....alumin......blast it tin! > > 6. You should stop playing American "football". There is only one > kind of football. What you refer to as American "football" is not a we get to keep the cheerleaders ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 16:49:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14B037B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAJ0kkK50598; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:16:46 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:16:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-ID: <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Nov 18, 2000 at 02:36:09PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 18 November 2000 at 14:36:09 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Jordan Hubbard's preview of Darwin just went up at > > http://salon.com/tech/review/2000/11/17/hubbard_osx/index.html > > Overall, it's a good analysis -- especially the last section. However, the > article was marred by one EXTREMELY disturbing section in which Jordan beat > the drum for the FSF's software -- licensed under an unethical "poison > pill" license which runs counter to the BSD philosophy -- rather than for > BSD-licensed equivalents. Jordan writes: > >> Of course, the proof that I was working with a real operating system would >> be to compile something -- to get some of my favorite Unix-ish software >> running on this system. So I promptly fetched the source code to the GNU >> Project's bash 2.04, my favorite shell and one that didn't happen to be >> included with OS X. I unpacked it without any trouble. (Let's hear it for >> GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components!) > > If Jordan is to be a cheerleader -- which he does well when he > deigns to do it -- it would be nice if he at least cheered for the > right team. The FSF would love to wipe BSD off the face of the > planet, since it inconveniently interferes with Richard Stallman's > anti-business, anti-programmer agenda. The last thing it needs is > encouragement or PR from the one camp that actually delivers truly > free software. I agree 100% with Jordan. In fact, that's exactly what I'm going to be doing with my Sun 3/60s running NetBSD once I finish my mail. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 17:11:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8FC37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FFEDA42; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:11:46 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 02:11:11 +0100 To: Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:16 AM +1030 2000/11/19, Greg Lehey wrote: > I agree 100% with Jordan. In fact, that's exactly what I'm going to > be doing with my Sun 3/60s running NetBSD once I finish my mail. I have to agree as well. While the GPL folks may be anti-BSD, the BSD folks don't necessarily have to be anti-GPL. While I don't like their license, I feel no restraint whatsoever against using good software that I like, such as bash. I really don't see why you've got your panties in such a twist. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 17:25:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397D937B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAJ1HqR51940; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:47:52 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:47:51 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-ID: <20001119114751.E5877@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from blk@skynet.be on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 02:11:11AM +0100 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 19 November 2000 at 2:11:11 +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 11:16 AM +1030 2000/11/19, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I agree 100% with Jordan. In fact, that's exactly what I'm going to >> be doing with my Sun 3/60s running NetBSD once I finish my mail. > > I have to agree as well. While the GPL folks may be anti-BSD, > the BSD folks don't necessarily have to be anti-GPL. While I don't > like their license, I feel no restraint whatsoever against using good > software that I like, such as bash. I don't know that they're anti-BSD. In September 1998 I attended a Stallman Emacs tutorial (another package I like). Stallman arrived without the power supply for his laptop, so he ended up using mine, running FreeBSD of course. He didn't have any problem with that, though he did have a problem that it didn't have the latest version of Emacs on it. He actually brought up some kernel source with the BSD license in it, and commented that, though he didn't think it as good as the GPL, it was still a free software license, and so it was good. He wasn't nearly as nice to the Caldera people when he saw that they were putting commercial and GPL software on the same CD. I've made my own position clear in the past, but FWIW: I don't care enough about the difference to get involved in discussions on the matter. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 17:47:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5665137B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20950; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:47:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:47:22 -0700 To: Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:11 PM 11/18/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > I have to agree as well. While the GPL folks may be anti-BSD, the BSD folks don't necessarily have to be anti-GPL. While I don't like their license, I feel no restraint whatsoever against using good software that I like, such as bash. > > I really don't see why you've got your panties in such a twist. It has to do with the big picture. The BSD community should not be dependent upon a group that seeks to snuff it out. It needs its own shells, its own compilers, its own tools. Both for its own sake and for the sake of users who would otherwise be locked into the FSF's software. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 18: 3:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444DE37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [195.238.1.121] (brad.techos.skynet.be [195.238.1.121]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12D44180D0; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:03:19 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> References: <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 03:02:35 +0100 To: Brett Glass From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:47 PM -0700 2000/11/18, Brett Glass wrote: > It has to do with the big picture. The BSD community should not be dependent > upon a group that seeks to snuff it out. It needs its own shells, its own > compilers, its own tools. Both for its own sake and for the sake of users > who would otherwise be locked into the FSF's software. I'm sorry. BSD and GPL are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what you may think. If they were mutually exclusive, then we'd already be dead, because the GPL and products licensed under it are far larger than BSD and the products licensed under it, and that situation will never change. If you truly want to tilt at that windmill, I suggest you go off and write a BSD C compiler (and C++, and Fortran, and the debugger, and the complete development environment) that doesn't depend on any GPL code, and you'll be in your grave before me. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 18:13:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.monmouth.com (mail.monmouth.com [209.191.58.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A947637B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:13:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com (bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com [209.191.59.189]) by mail.monmouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01142 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAJ2Dg608007 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:13:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <200011190213.eAJ2Dg608007@bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com> Subject: GPL, Jordan's article and Brett Glass In-Reply-To: from freebsd-chat-digest at "Nov 18, 2000 05:47:48 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:13:42 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 732-935-0629 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:47:22 -0700 > From: Brett Glass > Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) > > At 06:11 PM 11/18/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > > > I have to agree as well. While the GPL folks may be anti-BSD, the BSD folks don't necessarily have to be anti-GPL. While I don't like their license, I feel no restraint whatsoever against using good software that I like, such as bash. > > > > I really don't see why you've got your panties in such a twist. > > It has to do with the big picture. The BSD community should not be dependent > upon a group that seeks to snuff it out. It needs its own shells, its own > compilers, its own tools. Both for its own sake and for the sake of users > who would otherwise be locked into the FSF's software. > > - --Brett > So write them instead of whining. Or get FreeBSD to build under another compiler and ask for committers. Meanwhile, let's be glad there's other stuff under the BSD license and get on with it. Brett -- I usually support you -- but this time it's too far for even me. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 19: 6:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03E5E37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 43996 invoked by uid 1003); 19 Nov 2000 03:06:41 -0000 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 05:06:41 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin Message-ID: <20001119050641.A4791@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Nov 18, 2000 at 02:36:09PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE i386 X-URL: http://mithrandr.moria.org/nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat 2000-11-18 (14:36), Brett Glass wrote: > >Of course, the proof that I was working with a real operating system would > >be to compile something -- to get some of my favorite Unix-ish software > >running on this system. So I promptly fetched the source code to the GNU > >Project's bash 2.04, my favorite shell and one that didn't happen to be > >included with OS X. I unpacked it without any trouble. (Let's hear it for > >GNU tar, gzip, cpio and pax being standard components!) > > If Jordan is to be a cheerleader -- which he does well when he deigns to do > it -- it would be nice if he at least cheered for the right team. The FSF > would love to wipe BSD off the face of the planet, since it inconveniently > interferes with Richard Stallman's anti-business, anti-programmer agenda. > The last thing it needs is encouragement or PR from the one camp that > actually delivers truly free software. Ok Brett, we'll just force Jordan to lie next time. Thanks for the advice. Here we were innocently thinking that it was good to tell the truth, and evil to lie and obscure the truth, but luckily you're here to set us right. While I dislike bash, many others don't, and GNU tar is pretty much standard for a Unix system. If they weren't there, I'm sure most would complain, and if they are there, that's good for OS X. In this case, one isn't there, being complained about, and one is, being complimented on. I'd much rather see Jordan appearing in these articles with on-topic beliefs about his favourite shell and how useful tar is for unpacking tarballs than you espousing a "The FSF is evil and we should put them down where we can". While I don't agree with Eric Raymond on all things, he makes one good argument. People don't really respond to good/evil. They respond to things that make a difference in their role and life. Talking about good, evil, and the moral implications of supporting the GNU project by just using a product of theirs just isn't something that matters in the lives of most of those readers. If you hit a BSD developer, you might get a few points, but if you hit your average user (Linux, bash, emacs, whatever) you're just losing major cred for us or having no effect. My thanks, as ever, to Jordan for a well-controlled and interesting interview that has probably already got FreeBSD more positive attention than your rants on licensing. Your (Brett's) articles in boardwatch and other places, that don't refer to the evil of the FSF, easily have won FreeBSD more friends than your moral licensing dilemna posts. Your posts about the evils of the FSF, GPL, and GNU products have lost FreeBSD more users and credibility than your articles, though. (jkh runs bash? As if emacs and tcl weren't bad enough... Did the OS X CD come with tcl?) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 19:44:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E5837B479; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13xLQ9-0000YC-00; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:45:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3A174CE1.768B3AB6@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:45:37 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, mark@grondar.za, Jonathan Lemon , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: new monotime() call for all architectures. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin wrote: > > On 18-Nov-00 Wes Peters wrote: > > John Baldwin wrote: > >> > >> On 17-Nov-00 Jonathan Lemon wrote: > >> > On Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:08:16PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Ok, I just thought the "mono" in his function name is for > >> >> > >> >> monotonic. > >> >> > >> >> If > >> >> > >> >> you are staying on one processor it will work, but if the > >> >> > >> >> timestamps > >> >> > >> >> have scheduling inbetween the timestamps and you land on a > >> >> > >> >> different > >> >> > >> >> processor it won't be monotonic anymore. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >It's close enough. :) > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> If it isn't dealing properly with async PCC/TSC counters on SMP > >> >> > >> machines > >> >> > >> it shouldn't be called "monoanyting". > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> I guess I totally object to the name now :-) > >> >> > > > >> >> > >OK, how about bogotime(9)? ;) > >> >> > > >> >> > It's not returning units of any known time. "bogocount()" maybe... > >> >> > >> >> How about 'slushycounter()'? > >> > > >> > falseticker()? (Okay, probably too NTP specfic) > >> > >> Let's just go back to CS 101 days and call it my_function(). > > > > Sorry, Mr. Baldwin, you just got a "D" in your assignment. > > Good thing I've already graduated then. :) > > > Since the function appears to return an increasing nonsensical counter, > > "foo" seems somehow appropriate. > > Depends on what school you attended. 'qux' is another decent candidate. Only for a bunch of latin-studying eggheads. John, meet Grog. And besides, my foo can beat up your qux any day. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 20:23:47 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9B8437B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAJ4MQU53362 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:52:26 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:52:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Is any efnet server still running? Message-ID: <20001119145226.H52433@echunga.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been spending increasing periods of time unable to connect to efnet. Can anybody recommend a server that is up at least some of the time? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 20:26:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AB6937B4CF for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:26:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28925 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:54:37 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA49112 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 04:26:08 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 04:26:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: 1RU kits / servers? Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm looking for leads into Celeron/Pentium III-based 1RU rack servers. Kits, cases, or entire servers. Pricing, specs, and store locations would help as well. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 20:29:54 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 8FDD737B4C5; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:29:52 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: blk@skynet.be, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Sat, 18 Nov 2000 18:47:22 -0700) Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-Id: <20001119042952.8FDD737B4C5@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:29:52 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It has to do with the big picture. The BSD community should not be dependent > upon a group that seeks to snuff it out. It needs its own shells, its own > compilers, its own tools. Both for its own sake and for the sake of users > who would otherwise be locked into the FSF's software. > > --Brett send patches....or in this case send complete programs. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 21: 2:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68ED837B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net (crtntx1-ar3-097-170.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.97.170]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id WAA26377942 Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:57:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A175EE0.507EEC5C@gte.net> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 05:02:24 +0000 From: Jason Halbert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? References: <20001119145226.H52433@echunga.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > I've been spending increasing periods of time unable to connect to > efnet. Can anybody recommend a server that is up at least some of the > time? > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Well... I have been on EFnet some of late. irc.ef.net irc.mindspring.com irc.emory.edu Those have all worked for me. On irc.mindspring.com seems to only allow high speed connections and irc.emory.edu only allows dial-up connections. I switch back and forth from DSL on my desktop to dial-up on the lappy. Give those a try. -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Jason P. Halbert | res02jw5@gte.net | | Transmitter Maintenance Engineer | ICQ#: 86637300 | | KDAF-TV WB33 | DALnet: Push^Pop | | KDTX-TV 58 | (214) 252-3300 | ------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 21:25:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8861B37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22086; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:25:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118221840.04652d80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:25:09 -0700 To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL, Jordan's article and Brett Glass In-Reply-To: <200011190213.eAJ2Dg608007@bg-tc-ppp815.monmouth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:13 PM 11/18/2000, Bill Pechter wrote: >> It has to do with the big picture. The BSD community should not be dependent >> upon a group that seeks to snuff it out. It needs its own shells, its own >> compilers, its own tools. Both for its own sake and for the sake of users >> who would otherwise be locked into the FSF's software. >> >> - --Brett >> > >So write them instead of whining. Or get FreeBSD to build under another >compiler and ask for committers. I'd be glad to. Of course, I can't devote my life to doing it alone, so I'll need help. But with Jordan -- the nominal leader of FreeBSD -- actively advocating FSF software and dependency upon it, will that help be available? I'm concerned that Jordan's embrace of the FSF will be damaging not only from a PR standpoint but because it will cause those who follow him to make decisions that will further hurt the project. >Meanwhile, let's be glad there's other stuff under the BSD license and >get on with it. If current trends continue, there will be less and less under the BSD license as the FSF "blob" subsumes more and more utilities. FreeBSD already uses far too many -- everything from man to gzip to groff. Complacency will play right into the FSF's hands. >Brett -- I usually support you -- but this time it's too far for even >me. There's nothing at all "too far" about this. There's more and more GPLed code in each release of FreeBSD, and if we bury our heads in the sand the FSF will accomplish its goal of wiping us out. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 21:28:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F7B37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22120; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:28:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:28:27 -0700 To: Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:02 PM 11/18/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > If you truly want to tilt at that windmill, I suggest you go off and write a BSD C compiler (and C++, and Fortran, and the debugger, and the complete development environment) that doesn't depend on any GPL code, and you'll be in your grave before me. You're planning to be in my grave later? ;-) Seriously: Linux was only started in the early 90's, and GCC in the 80's. There's no need to exceed one's lifespan to produce BETTER code, so long as there's a concerted effort to make FreeBSD free. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 21:34:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from citusc17.usc.edu (citusc17.usc.edu [128.125.38.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAFA37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc17.usc.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eAJ5ZDW81425; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:35:13 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jason Halbert Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? Message-ID: <20001118213513.A81336@citusc17.usc.edu> References: <20001119145226.H52433@echunga.lemis.com> <3A175EE0.507EEC5C@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zhXaljGHf11kAtnf" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A175EE0.507EEC5C@gte.net>; from res02jw5@gte.net on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 05:02:24AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 05:02:24AM +0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > Well... I have been on EFnet some of late. >=20 > irc.ef.net > irc.mindspring.com > irc.emory.edu >=20 > Those have all worked for me. On irc.mindspring.com seems to only > allow high speed connections and irc.emory.edu only allows dial-up > connections. I switch back and forth from DSL on my desktop to > dial-up on the lappy. >=20 > Give those a try. Nope, they all seem to be down. The packet monkeys have been out in force lately. Fortunately, there's irc.freebsd.org :-) Kris --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjoXZpEACgkQWry0BWjoQKW7AACdHIRy++3z7biOIfTdZty7IRw8 rL0AoOkIfVCVyeG+UlCOyRNPRGUCWsAL =DWrS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zhXaljGHf11kAtnf-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 22: 2:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blues.jpj.net (blues.jpj.net [204.97.17.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4257737B4C5 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (trevor@localhost) by blues.jpj.net (right/backatcha) with ESMTP id eAJ61t701050; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:01:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 01:01:54 -0500 (EST) From: Trevor Johnson To: Brad Knowles Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > If you truly want to tilt at that windmill, I suggest you go off > and write a BSD C compiler (and C++, Hey, TenDRA is in the ports collection. :-) > and Fortran, and the debugger, > and the complete development environment) that doesn't depend on any > GPL code, and you'll be in your grave before me. That sounds like a job for Unipress FortranEmacs (http://www.unipress.com/cat/emacs.html), only $695 per workstation. -- Trevor Johnson http://jpj.net/~trevor/gpgkey.txt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 22: 8:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60F437B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 75A8957311; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:09:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:09:08 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 1RU kits / servers? Message-ID: <20001119000908.B18063@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Kris Kirby , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from kris@catonic.net on Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 04:26:08AM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 04:26:08AM +0000, Kris Kirby scribbled: | | I'm looking for leads into Celeron/Pentium III-based 1RU rack | servers. Kits, cases, or entire servers. Pricing, specs, and store | locations would help as well. You know... There is always http://hardware.bsdi.com :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 22:32: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from echunga.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A62F37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:32:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by echunga.lemis.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eAJ6PSD53940; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:55:28 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:55:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Message-ID: <20001119165527.L52433@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Nov 18, 2000 at 10:28:27PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 18 November 2000 at 22:28:27 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:02 PM 11/18/2000, Brad Knowles wrote: > >> If you truly want to tilt at that windmill, I suggest you go off and write a BSD C compiler (and C++, and Fortran, and the debugger, and the complete development environment) that doesn't depend on any GPL code, and you'll be in your grave before me. Grrr. If you can rant about GPL, let me at least vent my spleen that you have mangled Brad's message by removing the line breaks. What junk did that? > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 You complain about the GPL, but you're happy with Microsoft? That I really don't understand. > You're planning to be in my grave later? ;-) Yes, I thought about asking that one too. > Seriously: Linux was only started in the early 90's, and GCC in the > 80's. There's no need to exceed one's lifespan to produce BETTER > code, so long as there's a concerted effort to make FreeBSD free. Well, I thought we had that effort, and that it had succeeded. I suppose it all depends on who makes the rules. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 22:39:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA65E37B4C5 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 49405 invoked by uid 1114); 19 Nov 2000 06:39:07 -0000 Date: 18 Nov 2000 22:39:06 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 22:39:06 -0800 (PST) From: Ceren Ercen To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is any efnet server still running? In-Reply-To: <20001118213513.A81336@citusc17.usc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've always used irc.prison.net as my last-resort... and as plur.net, mcs.net, and most recently lightning.net have been my first choices, and then closed unexpectedly.. I'm also currently at a lost... even irc.home.com has been gone. I'm still trying to reach: irc.east.gblx.net irc.west.gblx.net irc.emory.edu, from only one of my shells. irc.prison.net Somehow I doubt you want all of #sfrivethead and my other channels on irc.freebsd.org. ;) *sigh* Someone needs to save efnet. Someone with a loooot of bandwidth. -Ceren On Sat, 18 Nov 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 05:02:24AM +0000, Jason Halbert wrote: > > > Well... I have been on EFnet some of late. > > > > irc.ef.net > > irc.mindspring.com > > irc.emory.edu > > > > Those have all worked for me. On irc.mindspring.com seems to only > > allow high speed connections and irc.emory.edu only allows dial-up > > connections. I switch back and forth from DSL on my desktop to > > dial-up on the lappy. > > > > Give those a try. > > Nope, they all seem to be down. The packet monkeys have been out in > force lately. Fortunately, there's irc.freebsd.org :-) > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 23: 8:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624BA37B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22595; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:08:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119000021.045baab0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:08:23 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001119165527.L52433@echunga.lemis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118142924.00cb6850@localhost> <20001119111646.C5877@echunga.lemis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118184345.045f1d90@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001118222633.046bb550@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 PM 11/18/2000, Greg Lehey wrote: >Grrr. If you can rant about GPL, let me at least vent my spleen that >you have mangled Brad's message by removing the line breaks. What >junk did that? > >> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Looks like you've answered your own question. Yes, I happen to be working on a Windows client attached to my FreeBSD server. Sorry if things wrapped oddly; I try to remember to force Eudora not to wrap messages. >You complain about the GPL, but you're happy with Microsoft? That I >really don't understand. Frankly, I'd like to eliminate software from both the GPL *and* Microsoft from my infrastructure, because both organizations engage in unethical, predatory, and destructive practices. But for now, there's even GPLed stuff in FreeBSD (sigh).... >> Seriously: Linux was only started in the early 90's, and GCC in the >> 80's. There's no need to exceed one's lifespan to produce BETTER >> code, so long as there's a concerted effort to make FreeBSD free. > >Well, I thought we had that effort, and that it had succeeded. I >suppose it all depends on who makes the rules. FreeBSD is not free so long as it depends upon non-free software. GPLed software is not free, despite Stallman's rhetoric. A truly free software license places NO restrictions on what you can do with the code -- only upon what you can do to the programmer (e.g. you may be required to give him credit or not to sue him for bugs). --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 18 23: 9:52 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2A137B479 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 23:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA22611; Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:09:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001119000849.045ba6e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:09:36 -0700 To: Trevor Johnson , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL rant number 31391 (was: Jordan Hubbard on Darwin) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:01 PM 11/18/2000, Trevor Johnson wrote: >Hey, TenDRA is in the ports collection. :-) I hear that TenDRA's tendrils are somewhat tangled. Has anyone looked at the code to see how good/bad it is and how well it optimizes? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message