From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 10 4:25:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 10 04:25:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bandjinsil.sarang.net (unknown [202.30.27.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96DD237B401 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 04:25:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bandjinsil.sarang.net ([202.30.27.83]) by bandjinsil.sarang.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBACP8451581 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:25:18 +0900 (KST) (envelope-from root@bandjinsil.sarang.net) Message-Id: <200012101225.eBACP8451581@bandjinsil.sarang.net> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 21:25:07 +0900 From: Kim Jonguk To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: 생각외로 OE쓰시는 분이 많군요. :) X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.4 (GTK+ 1.2.8; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE; i386) Organization: BandJinsil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=EUC-KR Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 질문란에 OE로 쓴 메일이 깨진다고 썼는데.. 그냥 그 질문 올리고 나서 메일들을 죽 받아 읽으면서 느낀 겁니다. OE를 이용해서 메일을 보내시는 분이 많군요. 저는 컴에 FreeBSD만 깔아놓고 있기 때문에.. 조금 이해가 안갔습니다만, 생각해보니 주위에 친구들은 대부분 멀티부팅으로 Windows도 쓰고 있군요. 프비만 깔아놓으니 게임 안해서 좋습니다 :) 친구컴으로 피파를 즐기기는 합니다만... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 10 6: 5:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 10 06:05:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail47.fg.online.no (mail47-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2639A37B400 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 06:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (ti01a01-0037.dialup.online.no [130.67.3.37]) by mail47.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08742 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:05:39 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A338D76.DFC51666@online.no> Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 15:04:38 +0100 From: Tore Lund X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=BB=FD=B0=A2=BF=DC=B7=CE=20OE=BE=B2=BD=C3=B4=C2=20=BA=D0=C0=CC=20=B8=B9=B1=BA=BF=E4=2E?= :) References: <200012101225.eBACP8451581@bandjinsil.sarang.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kim Jonguk wrote: > > 질문란에 OE로 쓴 메일이 깨진다고 썼는데.. > 그냥 그 질문 올리고 나서 메일들을 죽 받아 읽으면서 느낀 겁니다. Hmmm, parlez-vous ASCII...? -- Tore To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 10 19: 0:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 10 19:00:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6791337B400 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 79376 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 03:00:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2000 03:00:14 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 145JCH-00049u-00 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:00:13 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Choosing a 5-port switch From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 10 Dec 2000 22:00:13 -0500 Message-ID: <87vgsrmzlu.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Would someone help me decide between Linksys EZXS55W and D-Link DSS-5+ 5-port 10/100 switches? The one from Linksys doesn't have a fan, which seems very nice, so for now I'm a little biased towards it. Are there any known performace or support issues with either of these products? Any other recommendations? Many thanks, -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 10 19:23:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 10 19:23:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2397E37B400 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 19:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14737; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:51:53 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA32578; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 03:23:04 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 03:23:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Arcady Genkin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Choosing a 5-port switch In-Reply-To: <87vgsrmzlu.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Dec 2000, Arcady Genkin wrote: > Would someone help me decide between Linksys EZXS55W and D-Link DSS-5+ > 5-port 10/100 switches? The NetGear FS-105 (ask for it by name ;-) has been tested by someone on the FreeBSD lists to be a Real Switch and is smaller than most other five-port 10/100 switches. It doesn't have a fan and seems to run warm/hot, but works. I've had mine running for several months and haven't seen a single sign of failure. I also have a Linksys which I have only been able to test out to three ports. It seems to get the job done, but I need another PC to test with to make sure. I prefer the Netgear because it's smaller and in a metal case. I've taken apart my Linksys and wasn't happy with the lack of shielding. As always, YMMV. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 10 20:40:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 10 20:40:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFD137B400 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 20:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 250B4D626; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:40:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:40:11 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: Arcady Genkin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Choosing a 5-port switch Message-ID: <20001210224011.G45394@reiters.org> References: <87vgsrmzlu.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <87vgsrmzlu.fsf@tea.thpoon.com>; from antipode@thpoon.com on Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 10:00:13PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Arcady Genkin (antipode@thpoon.com): > Would someone help me decide between Linksys EZXS55W and D-Link DSS-5+ > 5-port 10/100 switches? > > The one from Linksys doesn't have a fan, which seems very nice, so for > now I'm a little biased towards it. Are there any known performace or > support issues with either of these products? Any other > recommendations? Although they weren't the same model, I had eight 5-port Linksys switches for a project. Five died, the other three I shipped back out of spite. I've become fond of Netgear switches recently. Denny -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org Madison River Communications | reiterd@madisonriver.net www.scapegoats.org Slower than a herd of turtles stampeding through peanut butter. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 3:59:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 03:59:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BE737B75C for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 03:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AA06E2CE4 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:05:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09493; Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:59:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001210234707.04815290@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 23:59:38 -0700 To: Kris Kirby , Arcady Genkin From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Choosing a 5-port switch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <87vgsrmzlu.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll second the recommendation of Netgear switches. I have an FS-105 (their little 5-port switch) and an FS-508 (their super-fast 8-port switch with adaptive cut-through) and both have worked famously. The FS-508's internal fan is a little noisy, and the unit is more expensive than most other 8-port unmanaged switches, but it switches like lightning; it may well be the fastest 10/100BaseT switch ever made. It's great at uncluttering congested LAN segments and at handling segments with big data sinks such as high-res color printers. Alas, Netgear has recently started to cater to cost- conscious buyers, so they're not designing any more high performance models. This is a shame -- I'd love a 16-port switch with the same algorithms as the FS-508. In any event, you'll probably find that the FS-105 works fine for you. --Brett At 08:23 PM 12/10/2000, Kris Kirby wrote: >The NetGear FS-105 (ask for it by name ;-) has been tested by someone on >the FreeBSD lists to be a Real Switch and is smaller than most other >five-port 10/100 switches. It doesn't have a fan and seems to run >warm/hot, but works. I've had mine running for several months and haven't >seen a single sign of failure. "You know what makes a good loser? Practice." -- Ernest Hemingway To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 4:16:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 04:16:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (dhcp246.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8B137B400 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBBCPqx05484; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012111225.eBBCPqx05484@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Burbaickij Ariel Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: AW: What is actually the state of support for Compaq 10/100 Netel lige nt In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:44:18 +0100." <1F69DAAD3391D411BE5300805FBED48B496C03@ERLM511A.erl9.siemens.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:25:52 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Please note that it is generally considered good mail style to attempt to differentiate your text from that of the message to which you are replying. It's also considered good style to have some sort of content,= = but that may be asking too much.) > > Please note that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable on FreeBSD = > > lists, and if you persist with this attitude you will be filtered. > > I do not like to be blackmailed as I already had the opportunities to = > said it numerous of times. Undertake whatever your held for appropriate= =2E You are not being blackmailed, you are being told that polite conduct is = a precondition of your use of this privately owned and administered service= =2E > > On a more reasonable note; assume that you have just discovered that,= = > > like most New Yorkers, the driver author is well armed, and you've sa= id = > > this to his face. > = > Comparision is futile because author does not exert monopoly and is > not my last resort . Things go just fine under Debian Linux . The comparison has merit both as humour and also because it illustrates = the futility of attempting to communicate with you. However, your attempt at "blackmail" here is ineffective. We would = rejoice if you were to use Debian GNU/Linux, as you would ideally cease = to irritate us, which would be a marked improvement over the current = state of affairs. > > Now, do you expect him to help you, or leave you bleeding in a snowdr= ift? > = > Have never heard before that matter of writing drivers has anything to = do > with one's consince. I suspect there are many things you haven't heard of yet. Don't let that= = stop you from discovering them; just bear in mind that some of them have = sharp edges in unexpected places. At any rate, I think I'll leave you to your fate. The developer and = maintainer of the driver for your card is attempting to communicate = reasonably with you; if you're willing to extend him the same courtesy, = you may well end up with supported hardware. In the meantime, remember this; just because we *look* like little blinking lights on your screen doesn't mean we're Space Invaders. People= on mailing lists are still real people. Regards, Mike -- = =2E.. every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 9:39:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 09:39:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2FD837B400 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 84426 invoked from network); 11 Dec 2000 17:39:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (mail@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 11 Dec 2000 17:39:06 -0000 Received: from antipode by tea.thpoon.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 145Wun-0004g5-00 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:39:05 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Choosing a 5-port switch References: From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Organization: thpoon.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 11 Dec 2000 12:39:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <87aea2j1s6.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: Dennis Reiter writes: Brett Glass writes: > I'll second the recommendation of Netgear switches. Kris, Dennis, Brett: Thanks a lot for your recommendations. It looks like I'll get the Netgear FS-105 after all. -- Arcady Genkin Don't read everything you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 13:51:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 13:51:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web108.yahoomail.com (web108.mail.yahoo.com [205.180.60.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC14837B404 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3074 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Dec 2000 21:51:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20001211215145.3073.qmail@web108.yahoomail.com> Received: from [209.88.252.106] by web108.yahoomail.com; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:51:45 PST Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 13:51:45 -0800 (PST) From: Fabio Miranda Subject: postfix To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would like to know why freebsd.org uses postfix beside of sendmail, being sendmail a team also from berkeley and with same style of development? how could freebsd.org do that? i made an effor for understand how sendmail works and i use it in my site and i hope someday be in touch with the development. a freebsd user, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 14:36:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 14:36:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7F737B400 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 14:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from box079.labs.pitt.edu ("port 1051"@[130.49.141.90]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01JXL4CCWTSM002ZSF@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:36:44 EST Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:36:42 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: postfix In-reply-to: <20001211215145.3073.qmail@web108.yahoomail.com> Originator-info: login-id=pfg1; server=imap.pitt.edu To: Fabio Miranda , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <1598626350.976556202@box079.labs.pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mulberry (Win32) [1.4.4, s/n S-398070] Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I understand that postfix's development was started on FreeBSD. Good old sendmail gave many security problems in the past so I understand why MANY people use postfix. It's always been a matter of choosing the best tool for the job. Pedro. --On Monday, December 11, 2000, 1:51 PM -0800 Fabio Miranda wrote:r > I would like to know why freebsd.org uses postfix > beside of sendmail, being sendmail a team also from > berkeley and with same style of development? > how could freebsd.org do that? i made an effor for > understand how sendmail works and i use it in my site > and i hope someday be in touch with the development. > > a freebsd user, > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 16:54:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 16:54:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4D9037B400 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 16:54:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBC0sL655137 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:54:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:54:21 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RAID 5 In-Reply-To: <200012112357.eBBNvp301012@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Mike Smith wrote: > Well, a) you could send one of the boxes to scottl@freebsd.org for a WOW, Send hardware via email, time to dump the UPS and FedEx stock. What RFC covers that, and more importantly, does it work for pizza also? :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 17:15: 8 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 17:15:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB8837B402 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (dialup1738.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.202]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37793DBBD; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:14:57 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001211215145.3073.qmail@web108.yahoomail.com> References: <20001211215145.3073.qmail@web108.yahoomail.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 02:14:16 +0100 To: Fabio Miranda , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: postfix Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:51 PM -0800 2000/12/11, Fabio Miranda wrote: > I would like to know why freebsd.org uses postfix > beside of sendmail, being sendmail a team also from > berkeley and with same style of development? > how could freebsd.org do that? i made an effor for > understand how sendmail works and i use it in my site > and i hope someday be in touch with the development. The five things that you generally care about in an MTA (or most any program) are: 1. Security 2. Speed 3. Robustness 4. Ease of configuration & maintenance 5. Ease of monitoring Classicly, the open source version of sendmail has failed more or less on each of these points. Alternative programs such as postfix have tended to do better, because they can take the lessons learned in sendmail and avoid making those same mistakes, while they start from a clean slate. More recently, open source versions of sendmail have significantly improved in many of these areas, but you can at least still argue that alternative programs such as postfix still continue to win, at least when you're talking about default configurations (or configurations not too far away from the default). Of course, if you know what you're doing, you can configure the open source version of sendmail to perform at or above the levels provided by virtually any other program on the planet -- see my paper at or Nick Christenson's paper at . Now, if you're willing to talk about commercial MTAs, the guys at Sendmail, Inc. have done some *OUTSTANDING* work on the monitoring and maintenance sides of sendmail. During the two years I was Senior Internet Mail Systems Administrator at AOL, we cobbled together all our own tools on top of things like ssh, rcp, rsh, Tivoli, our own custom agents running on each machine, etc... and we *never* approached the virtually trivial ease that these guys have gotten things down to. Believe me, I am not a GUI person when it comes to being an admin -- you'll never see me use admintool on Sun Solaris, SAM on HP-UX, smit on AIX, etc... and you'll never see me use web-based administration tools like webmin. I've been in this business for far too long to do that sort of stuff. Yet, when I see what the guys at Sendmail, Inc. have done for making graphical administration and monitoring easy and powerful, I realize just how much of a dinosaur I have become. Having seen this stuff, I don't ever again want to generate my own sendmail.cf files with m4, I don't ever again want to distribute and update sendmail.cf files with ssh/rcp/rsh/etc..., and I don't ever again want to try to build my own network monitoring system with rrdtool, UCD SNMP, custom scripts to get to the things UCD SNMP can't do, etc.... So, it all really depends on what you want to do, how you want to do it, and what you're willing to do to get there. For those with short memories, I would remind you that sendmail also got its start with BSD, while at Berkeley (long before FreeBSD was even a glint in someone's eye). I would also remind you that the softupdates code you're all so very happy with comes from Kirk McKusick, who is Eric Allman's partner. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 11 17:21: 8 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 11 17:21:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-56-157.knology.net [24.214.56.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490E437B400; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 17:21:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBC1Ku402924; Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:20:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200012120120.eBC1Ku402924@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org Subject: Re: AW: What is actually the state of support for Compaq 10/100 Netel lige nt In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Smith of "Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:25:52 PST." <200012111225.eBBCPqx05484@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:20:56 -0600 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith writes: > [...] > In the meantime, remember this; just because we *look* like little > blinking lights on your screen doesn't mean we're Space Invaders. People > on mailing lists are still real people. Wisdom which also belongs in fortune(6). Or is it already? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 12 20:48:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 12 20:48:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D1337B400; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:46:30 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by 149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBD4lwC28599; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:47:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:47:58 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AW: What is actually the state of support for Compaq 10/100 Netel lige nt Message-ID: <20001212204758.E96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <1F69DAAD3391D411BE5300805FBED48B496C03@ERLM511A.erl9.siemens.de> <200012111225.eBBCPqx05484@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200012111225.eBBCPqx05484@mass.osd.bsdi.com>; from msmith@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 04:25:52AM -0800 Sender: cjc@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 04:25:52AM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: [snip] > In the meantime, remember this; just because we *look* like little > blinking lights on your screen doesn't mean we're Space Invaders. People > on mailing lists are still real people. jordan.pl ? -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 12 22:21:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 12 22:21:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-176-64.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.176.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF8D437B400 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBD6V2306877; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:31:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012130631.eBD6V2306877@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: AW: What is actually the state of support for Compaq 10/100 Netel lige nt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:47:58 PST." <20001212204758.E96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 22:31:02 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In the meantime, remember this; just because we *look* like little > > blinking lights on your screen doesn't mean we're Space Invaders. People > > on mailing lists are still real people. > > jordan.pl ? Perl scripts have feelings too! -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 6:21:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 06:21:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arka.ids.bielsko.pl (arka.ids.bielsko.pl [195.117.233.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1357A37B698 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by arka.ids.bielsko.pl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA05569 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:18:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:18:34 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200012131418.PAA05569@arka.ids.bielsko.pl> Subject: New European Promotional Contest From: office@euroleader.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070C33C436192682FC31B74B" Sender: lider@arka.ids.bielsko.pl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------070C33C436192682FC31B74B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Sirs, We are very pleased to welcome you and present a new economic initiative for producers from all European countries - both western and eastern. FOR THE FIRST TIME - ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE - IN THE VERY HEART OF EUROPE! [Image] "EURO LEADER 2001" This is an honourable title and prestigious Promotional Emblem in European Promotional Contest. This is an effective tool of promotion and marketing in Europe by means of which it is much easier to reach western markets, increase export and gain new partners for cooperation in the field of production and investment. The contest is a Polish initiative. It will be settled in March, 2001 in Warsaw. Therefore it will bring the best commercial effects on a stable, almost 40-million prospective customers Polish market, having over 5% economic growth, which will soon become an integral market of European Union. Click http://www.euroleader.org/ and get acquainted with the details of the contest, enter for the European competition. It will bring you success and a good start in the XXI century! You are good but are you well-known? You will be well-known! Join us. Yours faithfully, INTERRES International Building Fair and Promotion - from Poland B2B - Internet Portal Tadeusz Ziobro - President. --------------070C33C436192682FC31B74B Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------CEE33E5E78D696CB4E0EC941" --------------CEE33E5E78D696CB4E0EC941 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dear Sirs,

We are very pleased to welcome you and present a new economic initiative
for producers from all European countries - both western and eastern.

FOR THE FIRST TIME - ON SUCH A LARGE SCALE - IN THE VERY HEART OF EUROPE!

"EURO LEADER 2001"

This is an honourable title and prestigious Promotional Emblem
in European Promotional Contest.

This is an effective tool of promotion and marketing in Europe
by means of which it is much easier to reach western markets,
increase export and gain new partners for cooperation in the
field of production and investment.




The contest is a Polish initiative.
It will be settled in March, 2001 in Warsaw. Therefore it will bring the best commercial effects on a stable, almost 40-million
prospective customers Polish market, having over 5% economic growth, which will soon become an integral market of European Union.

Click http://www.euroleader.org/ and get acquainted with the details of the contest, enter for the European competition.

It will bring you success and a good start in the XXI century!
You are good but are you well-known? You will be well-known! Join us.

Yours faithfully,

INTERRES International Building Fair and Promotion - from Poland
B2B - Internet Portal
Tadeusz Ziobro - President.
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(ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C0037B400 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:08:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBDM8ni04518; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:08:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:08:49 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jamie A. Lawrence" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Get that spammer! (Was: professional art community) Message-ID: <20001213140849.N16205@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20001213135715.00b82760@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20001213135715.00b82760@localhost> <20001213131305.B17715@stage1.thirdage.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20001213141435.00e00100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001213141435.00e00100@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 02:15:28PM -0700 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Brett Glass [001213 13:15] wrote: > At 02:13 PM 12/13/2000, Jamie A. Lawrence wrote: > > >"This international call requires special billing approval." > > > >Thus spake ATT. > > I wonder if this is something unique about your phone service. > I got through.... Got an answering machine, though. Afaik it's a scammer in Canada, several large internet scams are based in Canada and prey on US consumers. The ease of money transfer and the difficulty in prosecution really help them. Basically you probably can't call Canada with your card. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 14:12:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 14:12:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E4937B404 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBDMCSp04684; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:12:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:12:28 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Roger Marquis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Get that spammer! (bizland-inc.com) Message-ID: <20001213141228.P16205@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from marquis@roble.com on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 01:33:18PM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Roger Marquis [001213 13:33] wrote: > >Brett Glass wrote: > > server. The first set off an alarm and we're blocking. If you want to > > complain, the relevant addresses are: > > > > abuse@rogerswave.ca (The spammer's DSL provider) > > abuse@bizland-inc.com (The spammer's e-mail provider and Web host) > > securityalert@bizland-inc.com (Another abuse address at the hosting firm) > > Actually bizland-inc.com is the spammer, despite their misleading > web page. Chalkychalk.com et al are Bizland customers. Bizland-inc.com, > aka bizland.com, aka prontomail.com, aka click2site.com has a long > history of spam on behalf of various customers. > > You can complain to Bizland's ISP, however, given the large volume > and multiple incidents this ISP has not responded to it is likely > they have a "pink contract" which permits the spam to continue. > > Bizland's ISP is Exodus, not known for AUP enforcement. Funny, we just got an "abuse" report from Exodus because someone complained that data was coming from port 80 on our machines into thier network. Yes the machine is a webserver. *sigh* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 15:36:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 15:36:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACAAB37B400 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:36:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1009.brussels2.skynet.be [194.78.238.177]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6F2DA41; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:36:24 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 00:35:54 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Very interesting benchmarking results... Cc: Greg Lehey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, Some of you may remember some previous benchmarking I had done with vinum under FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE against a DPT SmartRAID IV controller w/ 64MB of cache (see ). Well, I have recently updated those tests to include vinum under FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE and a DPT SmartRAID V controller w/ 16MB cache. I haven't updated the page listed above yet, because I wanted to get your feedback on what you thought these results might mean. I have my own views, but I'd like to hear yours. Anyway, the graphs are at (random read), and in that same directory there is also vinum-dpt-rw.png (random write), vinum-dpt-sr.png (sequential read), and vinum-dpt-sw.png (sequential write). I hope I did the conversion to PNG correctly -- neither of the web browsers I have seems to support this format, so I can't confirm for myself whether this looks correct or not. ;-) After a few days, I'll post my own ideas of what I think these results mean. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 15:55:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 15:55:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D41337B400 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 146Ljr-000B2G-00; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:55:11 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Message-ID: <20001213235511.V71002@hand.dotat.at> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: fanf@dotat.at Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > I hope I did the conversion to PNG correctly -- neither of the >web browsers I have seems to support this format, so I can't confirm >for myself whether this looks correct or not. ;-) Your web server's mime.types file doesn't include png, so the Content-Type header is wrong (text/plain instead of image/png). Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "Perhaps on your way home you will pass someone in the dark, and you will never know it, for they will be from outer space." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 16:13:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 16:13:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1D837B404 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah (jcwells@utah.nwlink.com [209.20.130.41]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA06353; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:13:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:27:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcwells@utah To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought hardware raid was supposed to be much better. These graphs show this raid card as a fractional performer. The difference is so staggering I had to double check that your graphs were referenced to zero to make sure you hadn't played any graphing tricks. Aside from the better numbers that vinum produces, I am surprised that the raid card performance remained flat for an increased number of processes. I am no expert, but that looks like something just ain't right with the card. Shouldn't throughput approach the aggregate throughput of the SCSI channel(s)? Does this manufacturer just suck or is the superiority of hardware raid a myth? Thank you, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 16:59:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 16:59:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D76037B404 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 78011 invoked by uid 89); 14 Dec 2000 00:59:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phoenixdsl.com) (64.32.158.84) by mail.phoenixdsl.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2000 00:59:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3A3819E7.327D8F31@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 19:52:55 -0500 From: 1MAZDA1{WC} <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hotmail not FreeBSD anymore??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The site www.hotmail.com runs Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 17: 3:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 17:03:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D30D37B699 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:03:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBE13aE50788; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A3819E7.327D8F31@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:03:45 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: 1MAZDA1{WC} <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> Subject: RE: Hotmail not FreeBSD anymore??? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Dec-00 1MAZDA1{WC} wrote: > > > The site www.hotmail.com runs Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000 Old news. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 17: 7:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 17:07:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail01.phoenixdsl.com (mail.phoenixdsl.com [216.178.151.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B9D137B402 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 93640 invoked by uid 89); 14 Dec 2000 01:07:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO phoenixdsl.com) (64.32.158.84) by mail.phoenixdsl.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 2000 01:07:53 -0000 Message-ID: <3A381BDB.92A9BEDB@phoenixdsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 20:01:15 -0500 From: 1MAZDA1{WC} <1mazda1@phoenixdsl.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Hotmail not FreeBSD anymore??? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not to me.. John Baldwin wrote: > On 14-Dec-00 1MAZDA1{WC} wrote: > > > > > > The site www.hotmail.com runs Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000 > > Old news. > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 19:31:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 19:31:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6A837B69B for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 19:31:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 67E4657443; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:31:36 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:31:36 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Brad Knowles , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Message-ID: <20001213213136.A20457@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jcwells@nwlink.com on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:27:54PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 04:27:54PM -0800, Jason C. Wells scribbled: | I thought hardware raid was supposed to be much better. These graphs show | this raid card as a fractional performer. The difference is so staggering | I had to double check that your graphs were referenced to zero to make | sure you hadn't played any graphing tricks. | | Aside from the better numbers that vinum produces, I am surprised that the | raid card performance remained flat for an increased number of processes. | I am no expert, but that looks like something just ain't right with the | card. Shouldn't throughput approach the aggregate throughput of the SCSI | channel(s)? | | Does this manufacturer just suck or is the superiority of hardware raid a myth? Brad failed to post the simultaneous CPU times at the same time. i.e. at 128 processes, how much CPU time was doing I/O? Also, how much memory was the processes taking? -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 22: 3:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 22:03:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD2337B698 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1547.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.11]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8BF6CE3; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:02:24 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001213235511.V71002@hand.dotat.at> References: <20001213235511.V71002@hand.dotat.at> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:52:02 +0100 To: Tony Finch From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:55 PM +0000 2000/12/13, Tony Finch wrote: > Your web server's mime.types file doesn't include png, so the > Content-Type header is wrong (text/plain instead of image/png). Ahh, okay. I'll have to let them know about that. Thanks! -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 22: 4: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 22:04:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from neo.skynet.be (neo.skynet.be [195.238.2.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F39F837B698 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1547.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.11]) by neo.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD17A6D2F; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:02:34 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:54:39 +0100 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:27 PM -0800 2000/12/13, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I thought hardware raid was supposed to be much better. These graphs show > this raid card as a fractional performer. The difference is so staggering > I had to double check that your graphs were referenced to zero to make > sure you hadn't played any graphing tricks. Theoretically, hardware RAID is more reliable than software RAID. And none of this benchmarking takes into account the CPU utilization, etc... required for vinum to do it's job. The rawio tools have methods to generate that kind of information, but I haven't taken advantage of that in my benchmarks. > Aside from the better numbers that vinum produces, I am surprised that the > raid card performance remained flat for an increased number of processes. > I am no expert, but that looks like something just ain't right with the > card. Shouldn't throughput approach the aggregate throughput of the SCSI > channel(s)? I'm reserving all other comments until such time as I get feedback from some other people and I can get a better feeling as to what these results really mean. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 13 22:19: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 13 22:19:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from morpheus.skynet.be (morpheus.skynet.be [195.238.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3257237B400 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (dialup1547.brussels.skynet.be [194.78.234.11]) by morpheus.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83CB6DA1C; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:18:51 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001213213136.A20457@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001213213136.A20457@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:10:54 +0100 To: "Michael C . Wu" , "Jason C. Wells" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:31 PM -0600 2000/12/13, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Brad failed to post the simultaneous CPU times at the same > time. i.e. at 128 processes, how much CPU time was doing I/O? > Also, how much memory was the processes taking? These are data points that simply were not collected during my original tests, nor in my more recent tests. The rawio tool does provide the capability to get this kind of information for rawio itself (although it doesn't show how much CPU time is spent in idle/kernel/user across the entire system for that test), but I have not modified my driver script to use that output format. While vinum may be very significantly faster, my guess is that it probably also takes some extra CPU cycles to make that happen. Greg should be able to give you more specific details from his own testing. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 14 4:39: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 14 04:39:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BBE37B400; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 04:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA71814; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:38:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jonathan Chen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: introduction of a stale committer References: <20001214065723.A5687@spock.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 14 Dec 2000 13:38:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jonathan Chen's message of "Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:57:23 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Chen writes: > My name is Jonathan Chen, also known as Jon, and sometimes also as Spock or > BlackLettuce. I was "recently" made a committer during bsdcon 2k. Welcome to the madhouse! > (o_ 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 _o) > \\\_\ Jonathan Chen jon@spock.org /_/// > <____) No electrons were harmed during production of this message (____> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That may very well be, but how many instructions did you heartlessly execute in the process? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 14 8:43:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 14 08:43:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trinity.skynet.be (trinity.skynet.be [195.238.2.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C325637B400 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.17.1.121] (warp-core.skynet.be [195.238.2.25]) by trinity.skynet.be (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1E518069; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:43:22 +0100 (MET) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: blk@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001213235511.V71002@hand.dotat.at> References: <20001213235511.V71002@hand.dotat.at> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:42:53 +0100 To: Tony Finch From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Very interesting benchmarking results... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:55 PM +0000 2000/12/13, Tony Finch wrote: > Your web server's mime.types file doesn't include png, so the > Content-Type header is wrong (text/plain instead of image/png). Okay, this problem is fixed, so people should be able to look at these PNGs a lot easier. My thanks again to Trevor Johnson for pointing out several solutions to the problem, of which I chose what was the easiest for me to implement. Folks, please take a look at the charts and tell me what you think. I really would like to get your feedback. -- These are my opinions -- not to be taken as official Skynet policy ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, || Belgacom Skynet SA/NV Systems Architect, Mail/News/FTP/Proxy Admin || Rue Colonel Bourg, 124 Phone/Fax: +32-2-706.13.11/12.49 || B-1140 Brussels http://www.skynet.be || Belgium "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 14 10: 7:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 14 10:07:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mage.trollkarl.net (fw.trollkarl.net [207.167.5.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DA5537B400 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:07:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from trollkarl.skafte.org (root@trollkarl [192.168.100.16]) by mage.trollkarl.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBEI7Il05257 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:07:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte@trollkarl.net) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by trollkarl.skafte.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBEI7E002978 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:07:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from skafte) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:07:14 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Nicest OS installer to date Message-ID: <20001214110714.A2958@trollkarl.skafte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Gregs Hidey Hole Errors-To: skafte@trollkarl.net Sender: skafte@trollkarl.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been a die hard BSD biggot since 2.0.5, but last night at our local unix user group, I saw probably the nicest install program for an os in a long time. It's from a new linux distro call MaxOS, very nice, very simple, very clean. As long as gnupartit can resize the windows partition it was only 3 or 4 mouse clicks to install. If partit gets confused its a couple of extra clicks but not many....... It is currently intended to be a windows "Desktop" replacement OS, and there functionality is geared toward that. They make some base assumptions and install the "200" most used apps with kde 1.1.2, Star Office and Netscape 4.7x. Don't get me wrong I'm not changing from the BSD world if I can ever help it .... but this was a very impressive display of simple technology. FWIW, the company that creates it is a small canadian that did an IPO to raise the capital to create the installer technology, and market it. The installer in my guesstimate probably took a couple hundred k canadian of programming dollars. -- Email: skafte@trollkarl.net ICQ: 93234105 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 14 22:51:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 14 22:51:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D580737B400; Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:51:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5818457453; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 00:51:40 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 00:51:40 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: "David E. O'Brien" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/gcc/config/i386 freebsd.h Message-ID: <20001215005140.B35769@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <200012150053.eBF0rJJ73545@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012150053.eBF0rJJ73545@freefall.freebsd.org>; from obrien@FreeBSD.org on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:53:19PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:53:19PM -0800, David E. O'Brien scribbled: | obrien 2000/12/14 16:53:19 PST | | Modified files: | contrib/gcc/* Go! David! Go! Go! Go! :) Does this mean that we will have crossbuilding to Alpha/PowerPC working soon? I'm desperate for base xgcc HOST=x86 TARGET=ppc. :) I'll buy you many many beers if you fix this. :P -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 15 12:36:34 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 15 12:36:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505C437B404 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from adlmail.cup.hp.com (adlmail.cup.hp.com [15.0.100.30]) by palrel3.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E242E3F; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cup.hp.com (gauss.cup.hp.com [15.28.97.152]) by adlmail.cup.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_18546)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id MAA17995; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:36:31 -0800 (PST) Sender: marcel@cup.hp.com Message-ID: <3A3A80CF.62A23EEE@cup.hp.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:36:31 -0500 From: Marcel Moolenaar Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Duncan Barclay Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: New committer: Me! References: <20001215085328.A53547@lucifer.bart.nl> <007c01c06690$c9c8aeb0$c96020c2@Cadence.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Duncan Barclay wrote: > > Well, if you want, treat East Anglia as part of the Netherlands - it was > mostly settled by the Dutch. Some believe the Netherlands are nothing more than a German province/county, so that makes it all a bit tricky :-) Ask Youp van 't Hek if you don't believe me :-) -- Marcel Moolenaar mail: marcel@cup.hp.com / marcel@FreeBSD.org tel: (408) 447-4222 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 15 15:17:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 15 15:17:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C81537B400; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBFNHhE33105; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:17:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200012152309.eBFN96077098@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:18:01 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Matt Jacob , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: RE: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/mcbus mcpcia.c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Dec-00 Matt Jacob wrote: > mjacob 2000/12/15 15:09:05 PST > > Modified files: > sys/alpha/mcbus mcpcia.c > Log: > Fix ypo in essage about isabling EISA nterrupt ector > (tip 'o the tired cap to Bernd Walter ) > > Revision Changes Path > 1.14 +2 -2 src/sys/alpha/mcbus/mcpcia.c Hahahahaahahahahaahas *choke* *sputter* -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 15 17:45:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 15 17:45:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E6E37B400 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:41:38 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBG1hCs75368; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 17:43:12 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Marcel Moolenaar Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New committer: Me! Message-ID: <20001215174312.A75342@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexco> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20001215085328.A53547@lucifer.bart.nl> <007c01c06690$c9c8aeb0$c96020c2@Cadence.COM> <3A3A80CF.62A23EEE@cup.hp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3A3A80CF.62A23EEE@cup.hp.com>; from marcel@cup.hp.com on Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 03:36:31PM -0500 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 03:36:31PM -0500, Marcel Moolenaar wrote: > Duncan Barclay wrote: > > > > Well, if you want, treat East Anglia as part of the Netherlands - it was > > mostly settled by the Dutch. > > Some believe the Netherlands are nothing more than a German > province/county... From the history of this century, it seems a number of Germans have believed all of Europe is a German province/county. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 15 20:41:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 15 20:41:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.huntsvilleal.com (server1.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D9537B400; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by server1.huntsvilleal.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28066; Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:09:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA35761; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:40:31 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:40:31 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: "David E. O'Brien" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/contrib/gcc/config/i386 freebsd.h In-Reply-To: <20001215005140.B35769@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > Go! David! Go! Go! Go! :) > > Does this mean that we will have crossbuilding to Alpha/PowerPC > working soon? I'm desperate for base xgcc HOST=x86 TARGET=ppc. :) > > I'll buy you many many beers if you fix this. :P HOST=x86 TARGET=clipper|alpha|etc. :-) ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 16 10:11:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 16 10:11:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E06EA37B400; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 10:11:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22993; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:11:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05322; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:11:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14907.45114.931200.484569@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:11:06 -0700 (MST) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) In-Reply-To: <20001216184937.G97408@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <15273.976919515@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <200012160006.TAA92008@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <3A3AAB12.EB84759E@cup.hp.com> <3A3A96E0.DDDDFA55@cup.hp.com> <14906.41033.930780.802740@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001216114710.H91832@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200012160553.WAA74580@harmony.village.org> <20001216184937.G97408@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moving to -chat ] > >> I'm not suggesting we reform all of these problems, but the first one > >> certainly needs attention. I'd go along with Marcel's second > >> proposal: > > > > I'm not sure that the first one needs attention. I find the code very > > readable as it stands right now. > > What's there is readable. That doesn't make it intelligible. I've > just spent the best part of a week fighting my way through the pccard > and newbus code trying to work out why my Aviator cards didn't work. > UTSL is a good idea if you don't have anything else, but comments > would be good too. > > Take again my RAID-5 code as an example, both of comments and of the > necessary deviation they cause from style(9). Here's a little of the > code: [ Snip ] Yuck, I can hardly read it. *SERIOUSLY* It's overflows my terminal window so badly that it's useless, and I couldn't even print it on a printer so I can read it (yet another good reason to stick to 80-char line-widths). Tab spaces are less of an issue for me, but 80-char lines are a *BIG* deal in my book. And, useless comments are annoying as well, since if you write good method names and use descriptive variables, it's mostly self documenting. > > if (sd->state != sd_up) > { > enum requeststatus s; > > s = checksdstate (sd, rq, *diskaddr, diskend); /* do we need to change state? */ Useless comment. > if (s && (m.badsdno >= 0)) /* second bad disk, */ This line I would write like this. The 'question' mark implies that it's a question, and the comma has no business being there. This also makes it easier to print and read on every terminal used by man. /* second bad disk? */ > if (s && (m.badsdno >= 0)) > { > int sdno; > /* > * If the parity disk is down, there's > * no recovery. We make all involved > * subdisks stale. Otherwise, we > * should be able to recover, but it's > * like pulling teeth. Fix it later. > */ [ Nice ] > for (sdno = 0; sdno < m.sdcount; sdno++) > { Yuck, but that's a religious thing.. > struct sd *sd = &SD [plex->sdnos [sdno]]; > if (sd->state >= sd_reborn) /* sort of up, */ Re-written. /* sort of up, */ > set_sd_state (sd->sdno, sd_stale, setstate_force); /* make it stale */ Useless comment. etc.... > To save you counting, the first line is 91 characters long. This is > nothing like style(9), of course, so before I commit, I indent(1). > With eight character indents, the result would look like: Then change your comment style so that it conforms better *before* you turn indent. That's really your biggest problem here is the 'end-of-line' comments (which I find extremely annoying, because you have to hunt for them, rather than having them be right where my eyes follow). But, this is religious war, hence the move to -chat. > This would be almost OK except for those damned comments, which make > the fourth line 99 characters long. Of course, I could inline the > comments and break that one remaining code line which is 81 characters > long: > > if (sd->state != sd_up) { > enum requeststatus s; > > /* do we need to change state? */ > s = checksdstate(sd, rq, *diskaddr, diskend); > /* second bad disk, */ > if (s && (m.badsdno >= 0)) { > int sdno; > /* > * If the parity disk is down, there's > * no recovery. We make all involved > * subdisks stale. Otherwise, we > * should be able to recover, but it's > * like pulling teeth. Fix it later. > */ > for (sdno = 0; sdno < m.sdcount; sdno++) { > struct sd *sd = &SD[plex->sdnos[sdno]]; > /* sort of up, */ > if (sd->state >= sd_reborn) > /* make it stale */ > set_sd_state(sd->sdno, > sd_stale, setstate_force); > } > /* and crap out */ > return s; > } > /* note which one is bad */ > m.badsdno = mysdno; > /* we need recovery */ > m.flags |= XFR_DEGRADED_WRITE; > /* count another one */ > plex->degraded_writes++; > /* define the bounds */ > m.groupoffset = m.dataoffset; > m.grouplen = m.datalen; > } else { > > Does that really look better? To me it does, although I add in a few blank lines to break things up into 'logical chunks'. ie; /* note which one is bad */ m.badsdno = mysdno; /* we need recovery */ m.flags |= XFR_DEGRADED_WRITE; /* count another one */ plex->degraded_writes++; /* define the bounds */ m.groupoffset = m.dataoffset; m.grouplen = m.datalen; Much better! Too much white-space is bad, but so is not enough white-space. With snuggly braces you lose alot of white-space, so you can add in white-space back at good places. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 16 15:44:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 16 15:44:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A735D37B400 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 33AE66AB68; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:14:26 +1030 (CST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:14:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Nate Williams Cc: Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) Message-ID: <20001217101426.N98509@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <15273.976919515@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <200012160006.TAA92008@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <3A3AAB12.EB84759E@cup.hp.com> <3A3A96E0.DDDDFA55@cup.hp.com> <14906.41033.930780.802740@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001216114710.H91832@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200012160553.WAA74580@harmony.village.org> <20001216184937.G97408@wantadilla.lemis.com> <14907.45114.931200.484569@nomad.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <14907.45114.931200.484569@nomad.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 11:11:06AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 16 December 2000 at 11:11:06 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > [ Moving to -chat ] > >>>> I'm not suggesting we reform all of these problems, but the first one >>>> certainly needs attention. I'd go along with Marcel's second >>>> proposal: >>> >>> I'm not sure that the first one needs attention. I find the code very >>> readable as it stands right now. >> >> What's there is readable. That doesn't make it intelligible. I've >> just spent the best part of a week fighting my way through the pccard >> and newbus code trying to work out why my Aviator cards didn't work. >> UTSL is a good idea if you don't have anything else, but comments >> would be good too. >> >> Take again my RAID-5 code as an example, both of comments and of the >> necessary deviation they cause from style(9). Here's a little of the >> code: > > [ Snip ] > > Yuck, I can hardly read it. *SERIOUSLY* > > It's overflows my terminal window so badly that it's useless, and I > couldn't even print it on a printer so I can read it (yet another good > reason to stick to 80-char line-widths). Or to 100 character line widths. Or 120 character line widths. Depends on your window. Years ago I decided to limit my lines to 110 characters so that I could print it on a printer, so that comment is valid, modulo line length. > Tab spaces are less of an issue for me, but 80-char lines are a > *BIG* deal in my book. > > And, useless comments are annoying as well, since if you write good > method names and use descriptive variables, it's mostly self > documenting. > > >> >> if (sd->state != sd_up) >> { >> enum requeststatus s; >> >> s = checksdstate (sd, rq, *diskaddr, diskend); /* do we need to change state? */ > > Useless comment. Superfluous. Not useless. Without it, and without reading checksdstate, you wouldn't know whether checksdstate just confirmed the status, or whether it changed it. >> if (s && (m.badsdno >= 0)) /* second bad disk, */ > > This line I would write like this. The 'question' mark implies that > it's a question, and the comma has no business being there. This also > makes it easier to print and read on every terminal used by man. > > /* second bad disk? */ Agreed, not every comment is 100% perfect. But you've put the comment where it interrupts the flow. In my book, that should be reserved for larger comment blocks. >> for (sdno = 0; sdno < m.sdcount; sdno++) >> { > > Yuck, but that's a religious thing.. Agreed. I'm not advocating that the project should change to that style. >> struct sd *sd = &SD [plex->sdnos [sdno]]; >> if (sd->state >= sd_reborn) /* sort of up, */ > > Re-written. Sorry, I don't understand this comment. > /* sort of up, */ >> set_sd_state (sd->sdno, sd_stale, setstate_force); /* make it stale */ > > Useless comment. No, superfluous. >> To save you counting, the first line is 91 characters long. This is >> nothing like style(9), of course, so before I commit, I indent(1). >> With eight character indents, the result would look like: > > Then change your comment style so that it conforms better *before* you > turn indent. That's really your biggest problem here is the > 'end-of-line' comments (which I find extremely annoying, because you > have to hunt for them, rather than having them be right where my eyes > follow). > > But, this is religious war, hence the move to -chat. Agreed. >> This would be almost OK except for those damned comments, which make >> the fourth line 99 characters long. Of course, I could inline the >> comments and break that one remaining code line which is 81 characters >> long: >> >> /* note which one is bad */ >> m.badsdno = mysdno; >> /* we need recovery */ >> m.flags |= XFR_DEGRADED_WRITE; >> /* count another one */ >> plex->degraded_writes++; >> /* define the bounds */ >> m.groupoffset = m.dataoffset; >> m.grouplen = m.datalen; >> } else { >> >> Does that really look better? > > To me it does, although I add in a few blank lines to break things up > into 'logical chunks'. > ie; > > /* note which one is bad */ > m.badsdno = mysdno; > > /* we need recovery */ > m.flags |= XFR_DEGRADED_WRITE; > > /* count another one */ > plex->degraded_writes++; > > /* define the bounds */ > m.groupoffset = m.dataoffset; > m.grouplen = m.datalen; > > Much better! Too much white-space is bad, but so is not enough > white-space. With snuggly braces you lose alot of white-space, so you > can add in white-space back at good places. Agreed, that makes it more legible. I still find comments on the right better. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 16 15:55:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 16 15:55:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4166E37B400 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:55:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28319; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06277; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14908.252.364058.869839@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:55:40 -0700 (MST) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Nate Williams , Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) In-Reply-To: <20001217101426.N98509@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <15273.976919515@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <200012160006.TAA92008@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <3A3AAB12.EB84759E@cup.hp.com> <3A3A96E0.DDDDFA55@cup.hp.com> <14906.41033.930780.802740@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001216114710.H91832@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200012160553.WAA74580@harmony.village.org> <20001216184937.G97408@wantadilla.lemis.com> <14907.45114.931200.484569@nomad.yogotech.com> <20001217101426.N98509@wantadilla.lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's overflows my terminal window so badly that it's useless, and I > > couldn't even print it on a printer so I can read it (yet another good > > reason to stick to 80-char line-widths). > > Or to 100 character line widths. Or 120 character line widths. > Depends on your window. Years ago I decided to limit my lines to 110 > characters so that I could print it on a printer, so that comment is > valid, modulo line length. My printer limits me to 80-chars/line. That's typical for every common printer I've used unless you do some special processing of them. (Big workgroup line-printers allow longer lines, but I don't know many people who own one of those. :) > >> s = checksdstate (sd, rq, *diskaddr, diskend); /* do we need to change state? */ > > > > Useless comment. > > Superfluous. Not useless. Without it, and without reading > checksdstate, you wouldn't know whether checksdstate just confirmed > the status, or whether it changed it. I would assume it just checked it, else it would have a different name. :) > >> if (s && (m.badsdno >= 0)) /* second bad disk, */ > > > > This line I would write like this. The 'question' mark implies that > > it's a question, and the comma has no business being there. This also > > makes it easier to print and read on every terminal used by man. > > > > /* second bad disk? */ > > Agreed, not every comment is 100% perfect. But you've put the comment > where it interrupts the flow. In my book, that should be reserved for > larger comment blocks. Interrupt the flow? If it's a useful comment, then it's a useful comment, and it's not interrupting anything. The comment (if it's needed) is just as useful as the code that implements the functino. > >> for (sdno = 0; sdno < m.sdcount; sdno++) > >> { > > > > Yuck, but that's a religious thing.. > > Agreed. I'm not advocating that the project should change to that > style. > > >> struct sd *sd = &SD [plex->sdnos [sdno]]; > >> if (sd->state >= sd_reborn) /* sort of up, */ > > > > Re-written. > > Sorry, I don't understand this comment. I re-wrote the lines to those below. > > > /* sort of up, */ > >> set_sd_state (sd->sdno, sd_stale, setstate_force); /* make it stale */ > > > > Useless comment. > > No, superfluous. Whatever. > > Much better! Too much white-space is bad, but so is not enough > > white-space. With snuggly braces you lose alot of white-space, so you > > can add in white-space back at good places. > > Agreed, that makes it more legible. I still find comments on the > right better. They require me to 'interrupt my flow' of understand to read them, which means I have to spend time going back to the 'code' to get back to place. In other words, right-handed comments interrupt my flow of understanding. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 16 19:43:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 16 19:43:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F13437B400 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 19:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA71510; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:13:27 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <14908.252.364058.869839@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:13:27 +1030 (CST) Sender: darius@cain.gsoft.com.au From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Nate Williams Subject: Re: Coding style (was Re: cvs commit: [...] pci.c [...]) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org, Warner Losh , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Dec-00 Nate Williams wrote: > My printer limits me to 80-chars/line. That's typical for every common > printer I've used unless you do some special processing of them. (Big > workgroup line-printers allow longer lines, but I don't know many people > who own one of those. :) Buy a bubble jet printer, install apsfilter and use a2ps to generate nice listings... --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message