From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 1:17:26 2000
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From: John Lengeling <johnl@raccoon.com>
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To: Jeremiah Gowdy <jgowdy@home.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG,
FreeBSD questions <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: JetDirect 500X and FreeBSD
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Jeremiah Gowdy wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any experiance or information about using HP JetDirect 500X
> Printer Hubs with FreeBSD ? This is mission critical for my company, so any
> information greatly appriciated.
Ah...printers...my next to modems, my least favorite periphial to deal
with.
I have hooked up a lot of different printers to FreeBSD boxes and HP
JetDirect cards don't work as well since they only allow 1-2
simultanious network conections to the printer. If you haven't
purchased them yet get an Axis print server box instead. I highly
recommend them. www.axis.com.
JetDirect cards work, just not was well as Axis cards. It is also
important that you upgrade your jetdirect firmware to the latest rev if
this is an older card. There are some bugs specific to their LPD
implimentation. You can also turn off banner pages on the later
firmware code.
johnl
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 3:28: 6 2000
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Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:27:11 +0200
From: Alexander Langer <alex@big.endian.de>
To: Andrew MacIntyre <andymac@bullseye.apana.org.au>
Cc: Jeremiah Gowdy <jgowdy@home.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Subject: Re: JetDirect 500X and FreeBSD
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Thus spake Andrew MacIntyre (andymac@bullseye.apana.org.au):
> they weren't particularly reliable, particularly when multiple jobs were
> queued simultaneously. I hope their more recent stuff is better behaved.
It is now.
A further thing is: If your LaserJet doesn't understand PostScript,
you have to use apsfilter.
I do it this way here at home, the Windows-boxes use the JetDirect
directly (the Windows software is REALLY nice!)
Alex
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 10:32:51 2000
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 2 Apr 2000 18:33:21 +0200
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Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com> wrote:
> What do you think?
For what it's worth (me not being a committer and generally not on
the productive side of things), I morally support this idea.
To push certain buttons: what you are suggesting is to bring syscons
up to what the Linux console already supports in this respect.
> - in raster modes (SC_PIXEL_MODE on, etc.) more than 256 characters can
> now be trivially drawn. [...]
I should point out that what you have outlined is very limited
Unicode support. It's great for the primary European application
of Unicode, i.e. having an extended character set that combines a
character repertoire previously not available from 8-bit character
sets, e.g. the ability to write both French and Russian in the same
text. Without double-width and combining characters it won't be
nearly as useful for Asian users, though, so don't expect rampant
enthusiasm from that corner. Whether "full" Unicode support is
desirable in a console driver is another question.
> - the road is wide open for Unicode support in userland, through UTF-8.
A UTF-8 capable xterm has been capable since, uh, last summer I
think. It's in XFree86 4.0. The road is wide open already. It would
be even more open, if the work done by the Linux people wasn't
consistently GPLed and could be reused <sigh>.
> - The format of screen font files must be changed.
Hardly an issue. You'll have an array of glyphs and an array which
associates a Unicode code point with each glyph. In fact, you just
might want to use the same format the latest Linux console tools
have already pioneered for this purpose.
> - some rendering routines are slowed down due to the fact that simple
> 8-bit array lookups are no longer available for getting characters'
> information. This may be circumvented somewhat by smart searches/hash
> tables.
Linux uses some kind of hash tables. I don't know the implementation
details, but speedwise the overhead appears to be negligible.
Hint: For anybody interested in unicodification, the linux-utf8
mailing list is a must-read.
I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
-questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since
most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 13:30:40 2000
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To: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Cc: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:19:41 BST."
<Pine.BSF.4.20.0004022113120.604-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004022113120.604-100000@localhost>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 14:29:55 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004022113120.604-100000@localhost> Nick Hibma writes:
: The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make
: any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver
: to a device, just mentions it during boot.
And during every reprobe after that... :-(.
I'm currently working on a pci card driver and the vga chipset gets
reprinted every single time I load the driver...
The whole purpose of unknown is to CONSUME the resources that others
might try to use. This can't easily be done in the base bus w/o it
actually consuming them. Maybe we need a flag that means "I'm a
pseudo device that was created to consume these resources, please feel
free to detach me when reprobing the bus for any reason."
While the above would solve the problem being talked about, it would
still suffer from the "all unknown children printing" problem, I
think.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 14:30:53 2000
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From: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>
Subject: Autogenerated sources
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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I notice that there seem to be some autogenerated files related to USB
and PCCARD in the repository. Shouldn't the repository just contain
the master files, with the header files generated as required during
the make process? How do these files differ from the device/bus files
(/sys/kern/*.m), etc?
I realise that /usr/ports/INDEX is also auto-generated, but that is
a slightly different case:
1) It gives Asami-san a chance to demonstrate his expertise with
factor(6) :-)
2) Generating INDEX takes a substantial amount of system resources.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:26:35AM +1100, MAEKAWA Masahide wrote:
> gehenna 2000/03/20 11:49:22 PST
>
> Modified files:
> sys/dev/usb usbdevs
> Log:
> Add 22 vendor IDs.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2000 at 07:31:58AM +1100, MAEKAWA Masahide wrote:
> gehenna 2000/03/20 11:49:51 PST
>
> Modified files:
> sys/dev/usb usbdevs.h usbdevs_data.h
> Log:
> Regen.
On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 03:05:03PM +1100, Warner Losh wrote:
> imp 2000/03/24 20:04:25 PST
>
> Modified files:
> sys/dev/pccard pccarddevs
> Log:
> Merge 1.60 to 1.85 of NetBSD's pcmciadevs into our database.
On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 03:05:49PM +1100, Warner Losh wrote:
> imp 2000/03/24 20:05:18 PST
>
> Modified files:
> sys/dev/pccard pccarddevs.h pccarddevs_data.h
> Log:
> Regen
Peter
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 14:33:11 2000
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From: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>
Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/skel dot.cshrc dot.login
src/etc/rootdot.cshrc dot.login
In-reply-to: <38DDD08C.32348FE1@gorean.org>; from Doug@gorean.org on Sun,
Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000
To: Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
Cc: Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:32:56 +1000
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[Catching up on some old mail]
On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000, Doug Barton wrote:
> PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games:$HOME/bin
Two comments:
a) The sbin directories are for sysadmin functions and probably shouldn't
be in users' $PATH.
b) My preference is roughly the opposite order - along the lines of
PATH=$HOME/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
My rationale (originating with commercial Unices) is that the
/usr/local tree is a way for the sysadmin to replace standard
commands with local variants. Likewise, one's personal bin
directory is a way of overriding system-wide commands.
> I added 'set -o emacs' to dot.shrc, it makes life much easier,
I agree, but this would seem to be a religious issue: Equally good
cases could presumably be made for 'set -o vi' - particularly since
the default editor is set to vi.
Peter
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 15:24:41 2000
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Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:24:17 -0500 (EDT)
From: John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>
To: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>
Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/skel dot.cshrc dot.login src/etc/rootd
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.org>,
Doug Barton <Doug@gorean.org>
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On 02-Apr-00 Peter Jeremy wrote:
> [Catching up on some old mail]
>
> On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 06:56:36PM +1000, Doug Barton wrote:
>> PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/games:$HOME/bin
>
> Two comments:
> a) The sbin directories are for sysadmin functions and probably shouldn't
> be in users' $PATH.
I agree, but I lost my argument on that one. The counter argument are that
users like to ping(8), etc.
> b) My preference is roughly the opposite order - along the lines of
> PATH=$HOME/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
> My rationale (originating with commercial Unices) is that the
> /usr/local tree is a way for the sysadmin to replace standard
> commands with local variants. Likewise, one's personal bin
> directory is a way of overriding system-wide commands.
The counter-argument is alias(1).
>> I added 'set -o emacs' to dot.shrc, it makes life much easier,
>
> I agree, but this would seem to be a religious issue: Equally good
> cases could presumably be made for 'set -o vi' - particularly since
> the default editor is set to vi.
This is for newbies. If you are clueful, then you can change your rc
files. However, newbies like it when you can use the cursor keys to
access the history, etc. This is noted by a comment in the diff that
was applied, btw. FWIW, I think the default editor should still be ee,
again for newbies, although some people think that people won't learn
vi if you don't set their editor to it. As a counter argument to that,
I am quite handy with both vi and emacs now, but when I first started
out on BSD, ee saved my butt a couple of times. I like green bike
sheds as well.
> Peter
--
John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org> -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 17:27:32 2000
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To: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:31:02 +1000."
<00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au>
References: <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:26:48 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> Peter Jeremy writes:
: I notice that there seem to be some autogenerated files related to USB
: and PCCARD in the repository. Shouldn't the repository just contain
: the master files, with the header files generated as required during
: the make process? How do these files differ from the device/bus files
: (/sys/kern/*.m), etc?
The pccard and usb stuff are that way because they are that way in
{Net,Open}BSD. The usb and new pccard stuff is ports from there.
There has been some talk about "fixing" this, and I believe that all
parties agree that it is desirable. However, until it is fixed, it
remains the way that it is.
There are also other generated files in the tree. syscalls.c is
another example that is generated once, and then committed to the
tree.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 17:30:38 2000
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To: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Cc: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 01:23:02 BST."
<Pine.BSF.4.20.0004030121320.7902-100000@localhost>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004030121320.7902-100000@localhost>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:29:19 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004030121320.7902-100000@localhost> Nick Hibma writes:
: Um, in that case you should update subr_bus.c. Change committed two
: weeks ago. I got annoyed to by that too :-)
Hmmmm. This work was on a 4.0-RELEASE system.... Makes sense.
BTW, I have a hack to subr_bus that prints detach messages when a
device is detached. This will hoist some code from the drivers that
detach into the bus system. I think it would be useful to commit.
Comments?
Warner
Index: subr_bus.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/imp/FreeBSD/CVS/src/sys/kern/subr_bus.c,v
retrieving revision 1.56
diff -u -r1.56 subr_bus.c
--- subr_bus.c 2000/04/01 06:06:37 1.56
+++ subr_bus.c 2000/04/03 00:28:59
@@ -1179,6 +1179,7 @@
if ((error = DEVICE_DETACH(dev)) != 0)
return error;
+ device_printf(dev, "detached\n");
if (dev->parent)
BUS_CHILD_DETACHED(dev->parent, dev);
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18: 4:23 2000
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
References: <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org>
From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:03:59 +0200
In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:26:48 -0600"
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Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
> There are also other generated files in the tree. syscalls.c is
> another example that is generated once, and then committed to the
> tree.
Talking about this, was there any opinions on what to do with
vnode_if.h? (See my PR kern/17613). I do think that it should also
be checked in or at least installed in /usr/include/sys/ so that code
can be built without having the kernel source installed.
/assar
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18: 6:48 2000
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To: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:03:59 +0200."
<5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
References: <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes:
: Talking about this, was there any opinions on what to do with
: vnode_if.h? (See my PR kern/17613). I do think that it should also
: be checked in or at least installed in /usr/include/sys/ so that code
: can be built without having the kernel source installed.
Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be
compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules.
Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to
compile loadable modules outside the tree.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:11:57 2000
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
References: <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org>
From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:11:49 +0200
In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:05:37 -0600"
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Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
> Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be
> compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules.
What about third-party loadable modules?
> Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to
> compile loadable modules outside the tree.
To bsd.kmod.mk et al? That's most useful, IMHO.
/assar
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:16:36 2000
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To: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:11:49 +0200."
<5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
References: <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:15:52 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes:
: Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
: > Hmmm. I've always found that the kernel only files need to be
: > compiled with a kernel installed. This included loadable modules.
:
: What about third-party loadable modules?
Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules
provided by freebsd.
: > Bruce and I have been working out a patch to make it possible to
: > compile loadable modules outside the tree.
:
: To bsd.kmod.mk et al? That's most useful, IMHO.
Yes. That's right. One of the things that drove me nuts when I
started at my current job at Timing Solutions was the inability to
build the modules outside of a freebsd tree w/o abadoning bsd.kmod.mk.
I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes
back to FreeBSD shortly. I like working for a Open Source friendly
company. :-)
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:21:53 2000
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
References: <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org>
From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:22:01 +0200
In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:15:52 -0600"
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Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
> Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules
> provided by freebsd.
Even if I knew that the files in /usr/include/sys/* correspond with
the kernel?
Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h
(in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer
of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out
how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl.
In that case, including <sys/vnode.h> just works. Why not? :-)
> I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes
> back to FreeBSD shortly.
Cool.
/assar
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:37:59 2000
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To: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:22:01 +0200."
<5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
References: <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:37:07 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes:
: Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
: > Yes. They must be compiled against the kernel, just like modules
: > provided by freebsd.
:
: Even if I knew that the files in /usr/include/sys/* correspond with
: the kernel?
Yes, because they often need files that aren't in /usr/include/sys...
: Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h
: (in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer
: of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out
: how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl.
: In that case, including <sys/vnode.h> just works. Why not? :-)
That's just a small part of the problem...
: > I've fixed that, with Bruce's help, and I'll be committing the changes
: > back to FreeBSD shortly.
:
: Cool.
Yup. It is third parties like you that I'm doing this.
http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/bsdkmod-patches
contains what I hope to commit if people want to comment on it before
I do. You'll need sources in the standard place, or overide it with
SYSDIR. I've been using them at Timing Solutions (my employer) for a
couple of weeks now.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 18:53:45 2000
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
References: <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> <200004030137.TAA56767@harmony.village.org>
From: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Date: 03 Apr 2000 03:53:52 +0200
In-Reply-To: Warner Losh's message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2000 19:37:07 -0600"
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Warner Losh <imp@village.org> writes:
> : Anyways, (and it's really orthogonal) having a generated vnode_if.h
> : (in /sys/kern or /usr/include/sys) makes it easier for the developer
> : of third-party file systems (i.e. me :-), by not having to figure out
> : how to generate vnode_if.h from vnode_if.src and vnode_if.sh^H^Hpl.
> : In that case, including <sys/vnode.h> just works. Why not? :-)
>
> That's just a small part of the problem...
Sure, but it's a part of the problem. And it's a part of the problem
that I care about, as in it would make things simpler.
> http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/bsdkmod-patches
Looks fine to me.
/assar
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 20:15: 2 2000
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To: Assar Westerlund <assar@sics.se>
Subject: Re: Autogenerated sources
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Apr 2000 03:53:52 +0200."
<5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se>
References: <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wkmh2.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5l3dp4m1ii.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <5lln2wm1vk.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <00Apr3.073102est.115202@border.alcanet.com.au> <200004030026.SAA56008@harmony.village.org> <200004030105.TAA56434@harmony.village.org> <200004030115.TAA56539@harmony.village.org> <200004030137.TAA56767@harmony.village.org>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:14:19 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <5lvh20j6fj.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Assar Westerlund writes:
: > That's just a small part of the problem...
:
: Sure, but it's a part of the problem. And it's a part of the problem
: that I care about, as in it would make things simpler.
I think it should be handled in a similar manner that the foo_if.{c,h}
files are handled now. I don't think that it works right now.
Warner
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From: Joe Loughry <loughry@uswest.net>
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I am writing a new graphical screen saver, based on an existing one
(rain_saver.c) in 3.4-STABLE. The system is freshly CVSupped to
RELENG_3 using src-all.
I found the list of modules in /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/Makefile
and updated that. But the new program won't compile cleanly. Even
when the new program (test_saver.c) is simply a copy of rain_saver.c
with "test" substituted for "rain" throughout, I still get the same
warning, and it leaves a mess in the build directory. All of the
other screen savers compile cleanly. What's wrong? (By the way, the
resulting test_saver.ko installs and runs fine; it just won't build
cleanly.)
Script started on Tue Mar 28 22:59:01 2000
miranda# pwd
/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test
miranda# make clean
rm -f setdef0.c setdef1.c setdefs.h setdef0.o setdef1.o test_saver.ko test_saver.o @ machine lkm_verify_tmp symb.tmp tmp.o
miranda# ls -al
total 8
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:59 .
drwxr-xr-x 16 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:30 ..
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 215 Mar 28 22:31 Makefile
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 3475 Mar 28 22:32 test_saver.c
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 43 Mar 28 22:59 typescript
miranda# make
Warning: Object directory not changed from original /usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test
@ -> /usr/src/sys
machine -> /usr/src/sys/i386/include
cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c test_saver.c
gensetdefs test_saver.o
cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c setdef0.c
cc -O -pipe -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -DKERNEL -Wall -pedantic -DKLD_MODULE -nostdinc -I- -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/.. -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test -I/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test/@ -c setdef1.c
ld -Bshareable -o test_saver.ko setdef0.o test_saver.o setdef1.o
miranda# pwd
/usr/src/sys/modules/syscons/test
miranda# ls -al
total 21
drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:59 .
drwxr-xr-x 16 root wheel 512 Mar 28 22:30 ..
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 12 Mar 28 22:59 @ -> /usr/src/sys
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 215 Mar 28 22:31 Makefile
lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 25 Mar 28 22:59 machine -> /usr/src/sys/i386/include
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 360 Mar 28 22:59 setdef0.c
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 770 Mar 28 22:59 setdef0.o
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 235 Mar 28 22:59 setdef1.c
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 742 Mar 28 22:59 setdef1.o
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 28 Mar 28 22:59 setdefs.h
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 3475 Mar 28 22:32 test_saver.c
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4163 Mar 28 22:59 test_saver.ko
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 2608 Mar 28 22:59 test_saver.o
-rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 43 Mar 28 22:59 typescript
miranda# make install
install -c -o root -g wheel -m 555 test_saver.ko /modules
miranda# ls -l /modules/test_saver.ko
-r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 4163 Mar 28 22:59 /modules/test_saver.ko
miranda# kldstat
Id Refs Address Size Name
1 3 0xc0100000 1562d4 kernel
2 1 0xc078e000 6000 procfs.ko
7 1 0xc08ef000 2000 test_saver.ko
miranda# exit
Script done on Tue Mar 28 22:59:55 2000
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 22:19:57 2000
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From: Daniel Berlin <dan@cgsoftware.com>
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To: kris@freebsd.org
Cc: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: GDB 5
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(I'm not on freebsd-hackers, i read it every few days through the web
interface. Too much mail already. So if you have a reply, be sure to cc
me).
Kris, you wrote
"
You're more likely to get an answer by asking the gdb developers on the
gdb "mlist" :-)
"
when asked about why GDB 5 doesn't have support for freebsd-elf.
Actually, he did, and we answered him, before he wrote here (IE a few days
ago).
The reason is that the patches against 4.18 you guys use were never
assigned to the FSF. Or so, that's the reason i was given when i asked
the head maintainer.
I'm not here to get into any fights. I just maintain C++ support for GDB,
and use FreeBSD as my secondary platform, and my main gdb testing
platform (Since BeOS is my first platform).
On the bright side, i rewrote the patches (mainly trivial fixes to make it
work under 5.0), and save a few problems with shared lib support (it
thinks it's broken but it's really not), they work fine.
Hopefully, i'll get them into GDB 5.1.
I'll happily put them under BSD license as well, and submit them, if you
guys want them so you can have a working GDB 5.0 tree (I have the kernel
debugging support in there as well), when it comes out.
Since i use FreeBSD for almost all my gdb work, and i do quite a bit of
GDB work (as you would imagine, C++ support in GDB isn't up to where it
should be, i just took over a few weeks ago, and already made major
improvements), i would be sad to see the FreeBSD folks continue to
have to maintain their own set of patches to GDB for longer than
necessary. Just one less thing for you guys to worry about.
--Dan
PS On a random note, i tried to email obrien@freebsd.org (since that
was the address i see on checkins to gcc fixes) because DWARF2 debugging
info is broken in gcc without a very small change to freebsd's gcc config
file, but it bounced.
Can someone forward this part to him?
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Apr 2 23:43:26 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:43:18 +0400
From: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Message-ID: <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
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On Sun, Apr 02, 2000 at 02:29:55PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> The whole purpose of unknown is to CONSUME the resources that others
> might try to use. This can't easily be done in the base bus w/o it
> actually consuming them. Maybe we need a flag that means "I'm a
> pseudo device that was created to consume these resources, please feel
> free to detach me when reprobing the bus for any reason."
I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a
description of the problems which might arose without it?
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 0: 3:58 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:03:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: Joe Loughry <loughry@uswest.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Warning: Object directory not changed from original
In-Reply-To: <200004030442.WAA00550@miranda.dnvr.uswest.net>
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On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Joe Loughry wrote:
> with "test" substituted for "rain" throughout, I still get the same
> warning, and it leaves a mess in the build directory. All of the
> other screen savers compile cleanly. What's wrong? (By the way, the
make obj
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 2:27:59 2000
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
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> : The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make
> : any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver
> : to a device, just mentions it during boot.
>
> And during every reprobe after that... :-(.
> I'm currently working on a pci card driver and the vga chipset gets
> reprinted every single time I load the driver...
Um, in that case you should update subr_bus.c. Change committed two
weeks ago. I got annoyed to by that too :-)
--
n_hibma@webweaving.org
n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project
http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 2:29:22 2000
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From: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>
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Reply-To: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
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> In theory, if one matches with a -1 or smaller rather than 0, then it
> will be detached on reprobe. Isn't that the case?
On -newbus this issue has come up and the conclusion was that there is
always some problem rearing its ugly head. On loading a new driver you
would have to run a non-intrusive probe on the device (if at all
possible, some USB devices won't let you do that), the driver needs to
detach (if possible, what if they attached to a CAM SIM which you
should not delete) and the new driver needs to attach and initialise
the device (if possible, what about ISA cards that freeze if you treat
them the wrong way?).
The issue is pretty hairy and for now I think the solution is to make
any stub use DEVICE_NOMATCH (see pci.c), which does not attach a driver
to a device, just mentions it during boot.
I have no idea however whether this can be done with the unknown driver
Nick
--
n_hibma@webweaving.org
n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project
http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 4:53:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
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> Hmmmm. This work was on a 4.0-RELEASE system.... Makes sense.
Right, that has not backported yet. I'll do that ASAP (this evening),
including the patch where nextunit is no longer used.
> BTW, I have a hack to subr_bus that prints detach messages when a
> device is detached. This will hoist some code from the drivers that
> detach into the bus system. I think it would be useful to commit.
> Comments?
Hm, maybe you should check device_quiet.
Nick
--
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 6: 4:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:03:59 -0400
From: Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
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i've got a server that has the sole purpose of routing packters between
4 100mbit interfaces.
the server is running 3.4-stable.
it has 128M RAM, and according to top, it isn't using much more than 80M.
i'm using zebra to do full BGP routing with 2 peers.
netstat -rn shows some 75,000 routes.
i've got:
maxusers 32
options NMBCLUSTERS=10000
vmstat -m shows:
routetbl 154337 21118K 21118K 21118K 237725 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests
21842K 47K 249883
how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel?
i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not.
any recommendations?
--
[ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ]
[ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ]
[ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ]
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7: 6:53 2000
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To: jim@reptiles.org
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
In-Reply-To: <20000403090358.K10147@reptiles.org>
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Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org> wrote:
>
>how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel?
http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/hackers.html#AEN4204
>i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not.
That's just for network buffers.
Tony.
--
f.a.n.finch fanf@demon.net dot@dotat.at
342 comedy as old and flaccid...
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:11:54 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:11:44 -0600 (MDT)
From: Joe Loughry <loughry@uswest.net>
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Thank you! "make obj" solved the problem. I was pulling my hair out.
Joe
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:13:34 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:13:08 -0400
From: Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org>
To: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
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Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:06:27PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote:
> Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org> wrote:
> >
> >how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel?
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/hackers.html#AEN4204
geez, that one looks a bit scary.
since 4.x has 1GB of address space, would moving from 3.4 to 4.0 resolve
some of my problems?
since i only have 128M in the machine, i guess i'll need to increase the
amount of physical RAM as well?
> >i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not.
>
> That's just for network buffers.
ah.
so, short of updating my system to allow for more than 256M kernel space,
there is no way to allocate more buffers for the routing table?
--
[ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ]
[ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ]
[ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ]
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:18:45 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 16:18:37 +0100
From: "Koster, K.J." <K.J.Koster@kpn.com>
Subject: RE: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
To: 'Jim Mercer' <jim@reptiles.org>, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Dear Hackers,
From the original post I understood that the problem is that not all
physical RAM is detected. Is FreeBSD seeing all oof the 128 MB's, or only 80
MB's?
Kees Jan
==============================================
You are only young once,
but you can stay immature all your life
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:22:10 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:20:58 -0400
From: Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org>
To: "Koster, K.J." <K.J.Koster@kpn.com>
Cc: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
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In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A32@l04.research.kpn.com>; from K.J.Koster@kpn.com on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 04:18:37PM +0100
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 04:18:37PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote:
> From the original post I understood that the problem is that not all
> physical RAM is detected. Is FreeBSD seeing all oof the 128 MB's, or only 80
> MB's?
i think it is seeing all of it:
FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE #4: Mon Apr 3 01:25:50 EDT 2000
toor@gw.151.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/GW151
real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes)
avail memory = 127451136 (124464K bytes)
--
[ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ]
[ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ]
[ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ]
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:31: 6 2000
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To: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Cc: Nick Hibma <n_hibma@calcaphon.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:43:18 +0400."
<20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
References: <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004022113120.604-100000@localhost> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:30:08 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes:
: I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a
: description of the problems which might arose without it?
Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing
hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is
really there.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 7:54:52 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:53:48 -0400
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
From: Bruce Bauman <bbauman@wgate.com>
Subject: 82559ER and fxp driver
Cc: bbauman@wgate.com
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Has anyone had success with FreeBSD 4.x and the fxp driver when used with
an Intel 82559ER chip? I believe this chip is the same as a normal 82559
but with some of the management functions removed.
The device ID is different so the current driver doesn't recognize it, but
if I modify the code to recognize the device is it likely to work?
Thanks.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8: 7:55 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:07:41 +0400
From: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Message-ID: <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:30:08AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> : I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a
> : description of the problems which might arose without it?
>
> Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing
> hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is
> really there.
Disaster can happens with legacy hardware. ;-(
What is wrong with PNP?
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:11:58 2000
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To: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:07:41 +0400."
<20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:11:10 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes:
: On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:30:08AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
:
: > : I do not like the idea of resource consumation. Is there a
: > : description of the problems which might arose without it?
: >
: > Machine deadlock, undetected irq conflict causing misbehavior, probing
: > hardware for device foo and locking the machine because device bar is
: > really there.
:
: Disaster can happens with legacy hardware. ;-(
: What is wrong with PNP?
You can't always disable PNP devices. More accurately, the devices
reported by PNPBIOS are defined to be hard wired and always active.
You cannot turn them off or relocate their resources. They likely
should be probed first rather than last like they are now, with
changes made to those drivers taht don't yet support PNP. However,
since the isa bus isn't guaranteed to exist until later in the boot
process, this may have some problems.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:23: 1 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0400
From: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Message-ID: <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 09:11:10AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> You can't always disable PNP devices. More accurately, the devices
> reported by PNPBIOS are defined to be hard wired and always active.
> You cannot turn them off or relocate their resources. They likely
> should be probed first rather than last like they are now, with
> changes made to those drivers taht don't yet support PNP. However,
> since the isa bus isn't guaranteed to exist until later in the boot
> process, this may have some problems.
Well,
create a automagic device 'known' and attach all known devices from PNPBIOS
to it. Now _all_ pnp devices got their resources (even if there
is no driver for it) and attached to 'unknown' driver. Any kldloaded
driver later does not see the device. Simple remove of 'unknown' driver
from src/sys/isa/isa_common.c makes device free and visible, but
resources allocated to it at boot time lost forever.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 8:30:32 2000
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To: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
Subject: Re: Reserving Resources
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 19:22:46 +0400."
<20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
References: <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <Pine.BSF.4.20.0004022113120.604-100000@localhost> <200004022029.OAA54341@harmony.village.org> <20000403104318.A53697@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031430.IAA60992@harmony.village.org> <20000403190741.A55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> <200004031511.JAA61348@harmony.village.org>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:29:45 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <20000403192246.C55382@Draculina.otdel-1.org> Nikolai Saoukh writes:
: create a automagic device 'known' and attach all known devices from PNPBIOS
: to it. Now _all_ pnp devices got their resources (even if there
: is no driver for it) and attached to 'unknown' driver. Any kldloaded
: driver later does not see the device. Simple remove of 'unknown' driver
: from src/sys/isa/isa_common.c makes device free and visible, but
: resources allocated to it at boot time lost forever.
That's why the mechanism needs to be known to the bus, so that it can
release the approrpiate resources. I think that others have commented
that the BUS_PROBE_NOMATCH method for the bus might be the best one to
deal with this sort of thing.
If we can live with the reasonable (imhoo) restriction that the newly
loaded device driver must support plug and play identifiers, then we
can likely just reprobe the devices identifiers that weren't really
attached at another point in the boot process. I think that Doug is
working on something similar to this.
The bottom line is that a loaded device must have a shot at those
devices that were attached simply to reserve the resources. Your
expectation that you should be able to get the resources is a
reasonable one.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 11: 3:33 2000
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From: "Marco van de Voort" <marcov@stack.nl>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:02:11 +0100
Subject: Re: GDB 5
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> The reason is that the patches against 4.18 you guys use were never
> assigned to the FSF. Or so, that's the reason i was given when i asked
> the head maintainer.
> I'm not here to get into any fights. I just maintain C++ support for GDB,
> and use FreeBSD as my secondary platform, and my main gdb testing
> platform (Since BeOS is my first platform).
Not necesarily. The FPC team did send OBJPAS patches against 4.18 to the
GDB team, and they just "forgot" them. When we resubmitted, the freeze was
already a fact.
Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl)
<http://www.stack.nl/~marcov/xtdlib.htm>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 11:37:31 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>
To: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
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On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
| I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
| I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
| -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since
| most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions.
I second this idea.
Regards,
Eugene
--
Eugene M. Kim <ab@astralblue.com>
"Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music
which people like, or make people who like your music."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 12: 4: 2 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 14:02:29 -0500
To: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>,
Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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>
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At 11:37 03-04-2000 -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote:
>On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>| I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
>| I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
>| -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since
>| most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions.
>
>I second this idea.
I proposed that about a year ago, and it was seconded then. So, make this
into four votes.
I also proposed an i18n directory in the ports collection. Right now i18n
software is scattered in different categories (well, last I checked it was
- I cannot update my ports because within the last six months my FreeBSD
ppp stopped working with my ISP and their techies still have not figured
out what they changed - the problem is on their end, not mine).
Cheers, Adam
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I think, therefore I am."
- Seventeenth Century Philosophy
"I publish what I think, therefore I have."
- Twenty-First Century Action
Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14: 9:43 2000
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Subject: IPFW Tee Bug?
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Hi all, got a bit of a strange situation here, hoping someone can help me
out.
I have the following setup...
an internal network with an address range of 209.212.100.192/27 (real ips)
a gatewaying freebsd box with an address of 209.212.100.193 internally
external address of gateway freebsd box is 10.10.9.2
a pix firewall connected to the freebsd box with an internal address of
10.10.9.1
both the 10.10.9 addresses are in a .252 subnet (/30)
the pix then has an external address of 10.10.80.2
connected to a router with an internal address of 10.10.80.1
the router than has real ips on its external interface
Im also running nat on the gateway box translating everything to the
209.212.100.193 address.
This all works fine, and traffic reaches the 209.212.100.192/27 subnet
just fine in and out etc etc, and all seems perfect, providing I have an
ipfw ruleset that looks something like this:
00001 divert 8668 ip from any to any via any
65535 allow ip from any to any
The moment I do this however...
00001 divert 8668 ip from any to any via any
00002 tee 2010 tcp from any 80 to any via any
00003 tee 2010 tcp from any to any 80 via any
65535 allow ip from any to any
Something breaks. When I do that, suddenly everything behind the gateway
server sees the webserver on the gateway server as whatever its browsing,
no matter what I browse when I have those ipfw tee commands in place it
ALWAYS returns the data on the webserver on the gateway machine.
Now to my knowledge ipfw tee just copied stuff to a raw socket, and didnt
actually "divert" anything, so this makes no sense.
Any help would be much appeciated
Thanks
Andrew Alston
Citec Network Securities (Director)
Phone: +27 (0)11 787 4241
Fax: +27 (0)11 787 4251
Email: andrew@cnsec.co.za
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14:26:13 2000
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From: visi0n <visi0n@aux-tech.org>
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I was thinking how normal programs get info about cpu and memory
utilization in bsd's systems, (maybe sysctl ?).
===============================================================================
visi0n
AUX Technologies
[www.aux-tech.org]
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 14:30:54 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 17:30:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Bacarella <mbac@nyct.net>
To: visi0n <visi0n@aux-tech.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ProcFS
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, visi0n wrote:
> I was thinking how normal programs get info about cpu and memory
> utilization in bsd's systems, (maybe sysctl ?).
In the olden days, you used to have to read kernel data structures through
/dev/mem (or friends(?)). This usually means that you have to be
privileged or at least loved by a privileged person on the system.
Lately, a lot (more) of this data is accessible through sysctl, although I
don't know exactly what. Just more.
Michael Bacarella
New York Connect Net
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16: 5:20 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:07:25 +0100
From: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
To: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>
Cc: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote:
> On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
> | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
> | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since
> | most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions.
>
> I second this idea.
I do, sort of. I think (BICBW) there's a big overlap between carrying
out i18n work on the code and message catalogs, and carrying out i18n
work on the documentation. There is already a freebsd-translators
(@ngo.org.uk) mailing list with very little traffic that could be
migrated to freebsd.org and used for both.
N
--
Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95.
Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission,
hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless.
Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard.
-- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16:12:14 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>
To: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
Cc: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Nik Clayton wrote:
| On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 11:37:22AM -0700, Eugene M. Kim wrote:
| > On 2 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
| > | I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
| > | I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
| > | -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area since
| > | most people appear to be served well by the existing non-solutions.
| >
| > I second this idea.
|
| I do, sort of. I think (BICBW) there's a big overlap between carrying
| out i18n work on the code and message catalogs, and carrying out i18n
| work on the documentation. There is already a freebsd-translators
| (@ngo.org.uk) mailing list with very little traffic that could be
| migrated to freebsd.org and used for both.
Yes. In fact I prudently predict that if we launched an i18n mailing
list we would soon get into the same set of problems every i18n project
has (e.g. unification vs. localization). For this purpose, having a
group of people already involved in i18n (regardless they are
programmers or doc writers) migrated into the new list would be a great
idea.
--
Eugene M. Kim <ab@astralblue.com>
"Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music
which people like, or make people who like your music."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 16:25:59 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:23:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote:
> Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD?
Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having
Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure
-- I am Russian.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 18:27:37 2000
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From: vova@express.ru
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To: Jim Mercer <jim@reptiles.org>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FBSD-3.4, full bgp routing, maxusers, NMBCLUSTERS
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Jim Mercer wrote:
> i've got a server that has the sole purpose of routing packters between
> 4 100mbit interfaces.
>
> the server is running 3.4-stable.
>
> it has 128M RAM, and according to top, it isn't using much more than 80M.
>
> i'm using zebra to do full BGP routing with 2 peers.
>
> netstat -rn shows some 75,000 routes.
>
> i've got:
> maxusers 32
> options NMBCLUSTERS=10000
>
> vmstat -m shows:
> routetbl 154337 21118K 21118K 21118K 237725 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
> Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests
> 21842K 47K 249883
>
> how do i increase the amount of RAM for the kernel?
> i thought NMBCLUSTERS was the one, but i guess not.
>
> any recommendations?
your in-kernel tables limited by 21118K each, you need increase this limit
how ? I know two ways:
first method - increase real memory of PC
it will work with multiplier about 6 (with 192 real I have
limit ~30M, with 64M real I have about 10M limit)
second way: tune kernel paramets
# cat /sys/i386/include/vmparam.h:
...
/* virtual sizes (bytes) for various kernel submaps */
#ifndef VM_KMEM_SIZE
#define VM_KMEM_SIZE (12 * 1024 * 1024)
#endif
/*
* How many physical pages per KVA page allocated.
* min(max(VM_KMEM_SIZE, Physical memory/VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE), VM_KMEM_SIZE_MAX)
* is the total KVA space allocated for kmem_map.
*/
#ifndef VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE
#define VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE (3)
#endif
...
so you can higher VM_KMEM_SIZE or lower VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE
in your kernel config file
I decrease VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE to (1) and have got ~ 96M kernel limits
(about half of PC's RAM)
# grep VM_ /sys/i386/conf/LANTURN
options VM_KMEM_SIZE_SCALE="(1)"
# vmstat -m | grep routetbl
routetbl 212269 39797K 39797K 95256K 351036 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
and then I have installed about 100K routes with script (much more than in
BGP full-view) for testing:
# netstat -rn | wc -l
106111
#
it takes 39797K
> --
> [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 506-0654 ]
> [ Reptilian Research -- Longer Life through Colder Blood ]
> [ Don't be fooled by cheap Finnish imitations; BSD is the One True Code. ]
--
TSB Russian Express, Moscow
Vladimir B. Grebenschikov, vova@express.ru
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 20:17:49 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:16:17 -0500
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 15:23 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote:
>
>> Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD?
>
> Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having
>Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure
Everyone who works with multilingual documents. Everyone who wants to
follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually
exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally.
Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
"Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
text." <RFC 2277>
>-- I am Russian.
So?
Adam
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I think, therefore I am."
- Seventeenth Century Philosophy
"I publish what I think, therefore I have."
- Twenty-First Century Action
Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 21: 4:41 2000
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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:59:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having
> >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure
>
> Everyone who works with multilingual documents.
I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English
and Russian text without Unicode.
> Everyone who wants to
> follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually
> exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally.
"Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from
Unicode Consortium.
> Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
> "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
> 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
> scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
> text." <RFC 2277>
This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never
was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any
input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by
dozens.
> >-- I am Russian.
>
> So?
So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Charset definitions in MIME
headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can
create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning
them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and
dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be
processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence.
One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can
be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same
tools without any complex "this is text and this is not"
application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that
gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream
of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and
"non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal
with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. In
Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats
this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as
text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable
outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even
encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's
a violation of some very basic rules.
--
Alex
P.S. I expect that Martin Duerst, the source of 80% of Unicode propaganda
on the software-oriented mailing lists will appear within 72 hours here.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 21:38:26 2000
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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:36:41 -0500
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English
>and Russian text without Unicode.
Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in
English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only
one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist
at the time, and I had to use graphics.
>> Everyone who wants to
>> follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually
>> exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally.
> "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from
>Unicode Consortium.
I don't know what you mean by "unificators." Why self proclaimed? Those
were people with a need for which they found a solution. Unicode Consortium
has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely
accepted. You're free to create your own system, or ignore it all together.
But just because you see no need for Unicode does not mean you should be
upset when people are willing to work on Unicode support in FreeBSD.
>> Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
>> "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
>> 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
>> scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
>> text." <RFC 2277>
> This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never
>was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any
>input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by
>dozens.
Affected in what way? Many ways of encoding Unicode were proposed,
developed, and used. Most of them are history by now. UTF-8 is the best way
to encode Unicode to this day. Don't like it? Design a better one.
>> >-- I am Russian.
>>
>> So?
>
> So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me.
Who's forcing it on you?
> Charset definitions in MIME
>headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can
>create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning
>them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and
>dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be
>processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence.
You are worried about nothing. No one in this discussion has said anything
about making anything but Unicode and UTF-8 "illegal." Supporting Unicode
does not mean stopping support for everything else.
> One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can
>be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same
>tools without any complex "this is text and this is not"
>application-specific procedures.
Nothing complex about it. UTF-8 uses a very simple algorithm which makes it
very simple to distinguish text from non-text.
>UTF-8 turns "text" into something that
>gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream
>of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and
>"non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal
>with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations.
You don't have to treat everything as the stream of UTF-8 encoded Unicode.
Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That
would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is
here to stay.
>In
>Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats
>this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as
>text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable
>outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even
>encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's
>a violation of some very basic rules.
What does Windows have to do with Unicode? Windows support for Unicode
sucks royally. Except for NT, Windows' Unicode support is virtually
non-existent.
When did it stop Unix programmers from doing something Microsoft cannot
handle? Unix already handles Unicode better than anything under Windows.
For example, Lynx handles Unicode quite well, and it does it on text-only
displays that have no way of supporting a multitude of fonts.
Cheers,
Adam
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I think, therefore I am."
- Seventeenth Century Philosophy
"I publish what I think, therefore I have."
- Twenty-First Century Action
Details at http://www.OnlinePublisher.net/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Apr 3 22:29:45 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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To: Bruce Bauman <bbauman@wgate.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 82559ER and fxp driver
In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Bauman <bbauman@wgate.com>
of "Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:53:48 EDT." <200004031448.KAA12035@mail.tvol.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:29:40 -0700
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
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Bruce Bauman wrote:
> Has anyone had success with FreeBSD 4.x and the fxp driver when used with
> an Intel 82559ER chip? I believe this chip is the same as a normal 82559
> but with some of the management functions removed.
>
> The device ID is different so the current driver doesn't recognize it, but
> if I modify the code to recognize the device is it likely to work?
>
> Thanks.
It is likely to work (try it!). The 82559 cards have a small serial eeprom
that contains all sorts of configuration information, including the PCI
vendor and device ID's - essentially they can be changed trivially. I
think that it can also be used to control which features are active - but I
don't think it can be reprogrammed on the card.
Cheers,
-Peter
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 0:19: 8 2000
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To: Sheldon Hearn <sheldonh@uunet.co.za>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Alpha & pc98 testers wanted
Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn <garyj@muc.de>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:51:06 +0200."
<698.954514266@axl.ops.uunet.co.za>
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 09:12:19 +0200
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Sheldon Hearn writes:
>
>Hi folks,
>
>The following patch to the 5.0-CURRENT sources allows the installkernel
>target to install multiple kernels. Given the following in
>/etc/make.conf:
>
> KERNEL= AXL AXLOPT GENERIC
>
>the installkernel target would install:
>
> AXL -> /kernel
> AXLOPT -> /kernel.AXLOPT
> GENERIC -> /kernel.GENERIC
>
>I've tested this for the i386 and would prefer to have it tested on the
>Alpha and pc98 before committing it, although I'm convinced that it
>should work on both of those platforms.
>
[patch deleted]
well, it doesn't work for me on the Alpha. It tries to install all
the kernels named in KERNEL at once. Here's the output from make:
>>> Installing kernel(s)
--------------------------------------------------------------
===> alpha as /kernel
cd /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/alpha; MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX=/usr/obj
COMPILER_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libexec:/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/bin
LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/lib:/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/lib OBJFORMAT_PATH=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libexec
PERL5LIB=/usr/obj/usr/src/alpha/usr/libdata/perl/5.00503 MACHINE=alpha KERNEL=alpha DESTKERNEL=kernel make install
[: GENERIC: unexpected operator
chflags noschg /kernel
mv -f /kernel /kernel.old
install -c -m 555 -o root -g wheel -fschg alpha GENERIC /kernel
^^^^^^^^^^^^
usage: install [-CcDpsv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 file2
install [-CcDpsv] [-f flags] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] file1 ...
fileN directory
install -d [-v] [-g group] [-m mode] [-o owner] directory ...
*** Error code 64
Stop in /u1/obj/usr/src/sys/alpha.
*** Error code 1
Stop in /usr/src.
*** Error code 1
Stop in /usr/src.
I also noticed that there was a GENERIC and alpha in both the kernel
compile directories. Somehow that doesn't seem right.
Maybe my world is too old. I'm running a buildworld right now.
---
Gary Jennejohn / garyj@muc.de gj@freebsd.org
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 6: 9:49 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:04:32 +0100
From: Titus von Boxberg <tboxberg@schuett-elektronik.de>
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To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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Alex Belits wrote:
> > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
> > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
> > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
> > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
> > text." <RFC 2277>
>
> This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never
> was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any
> input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by
> dozens.
I don't guess what meaning could be transferred by the quotation
marks around standard documents.
As far as I know (especially the Q, X and I series), the ITU-T produces
quite good standards that are widely, if not globally accepted
(just think about V.34 or V.29, V.17, T.30 and so on).
Check'em out and try to send a fax. It works globally. Quite astonishing, isn't it?
Or, if that isn't sufficient, you may use the same software to connect
to X.25 networks all around the world. You can establish modem connections
around the world (after Bell labs standards ceased to exist). You can
connect the same ISDN equipment virtually everywhere in Europe to the
trunk line...
If Unicode is equally well accepted, there should be no problem with it.
Bye,
Titus
titus@pleach.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 7:22:41 2000
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From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 03:23:42PM -0700:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, MikeM wrote:
>
> > Has anyone thought of Unicode support on FreeBSD?
>
> Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having
> Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure
> -- I am Russian.
So am I, and guess what? I'd really love being able to handle French and
Russian together smoothly and transparently. Not to mention Hebrew.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 7:41:22 2000
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From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000404104115.B73509@sasami.jurai.net>
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You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700:
> > >-- I am Russian.
> >
> > So?
>
> So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me.
Noone is trying to force UTF-8 on you.
In fact, userland support of UTF-8 can (and should IMHO) be based around
an environment variable a-la LANG which would tell programs whether they
should expect pure 8-bit text or UTF-8 text. This will give you a pretty
easy option to leave things as they are.
> Charset definitions in MIME
> headers exist for a reason.
Yes, and the better mail clients (e.g. mutt) are already able to translate
transparently between different equivalent charsets by using internally
a common superset -- Unicode. Everyone should be able to use whatever
charset they desire.
> One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can
> be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same
> tools without any complex "this is text and this is not"
> application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that
> gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream
> of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and
> "non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal
> with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations.
This is not a dilemma. Just about the only really different aspect of handling
UTF-8 text is the algorithm for calculating the number of characters.
Most of the existing programs can easily be tailored to treat the byte
stream as either pure 8-bit stream or UTF-8 stream based on YOUR preferences.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8: 7:15 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:05:44 -0500
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be
>useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate
>as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and
>communications.
Oh, I think it's great for communications. I design web sites. It is good
to have a single character representation supported by Internet standards.
Saves a lot of work. Before UTF-8 became widely accepted, a typical Slovak
web page started by a menu of choices of which encoding your browser
supported. You had to have 3 - 4 versions of each page. A major pain! Now
you only need one.
Or even when designing English pages in a typographically correct way
(opening and closing quotes, and things like that), it was a pain before
UTF-8 because while ISO-8859-1 is the assumed default, Microsoft, in its
infinite wisdom created a slight modification of ISO-8859-1 which they
called ANSI, and which the uninitiated commonly believed to be the same as
ISO-8859-1. As a result, there are a myriad of web pages out there that use
the Microsoft encoding, and there are those that use true ISO-8859-1. So
many browsers assume that you are using the MS "standard." It's a real mess.
So, in all my recent pages I use UTF-8, and the problem is solved.
>> Unicode Consortium
>> has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely
>> accepted.
>
> So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone
>else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and
>Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of
>ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of
>people.
I was not talking about companies. I was talking about people with genuine
i18n needs. When I started working on Unicode support for FreeBSD (a work,
I unfortunately had to interrupt due to serious health problems), I
subscribed to the Unicode mailing list. People on the list come from
different backgrounds, mostly Unix actually. The most active ones who make
serious proposals to additions to Unicode are Unix people.
> I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" --
>everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone
>else.
I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already because
I did some work and it is in the ports.
> I am not talking about Unicode representations and encodings but about
>Unicode itself. I agree that UTF-8 is the only way to marry Unicode with
>text and Unix, however I don't see much point in doing that.
Well, that's fine. You don't need it. I do. UTF-8 has many nice advantages
for a Unix programmer, which is probably why it became so widely accepted.
For example, standard C string functions work with UTF-8: strcmp, strcpy,
and other str* functions work without modification. The only possible
limitation is that strlen will give you the number of bytes rather than the
number of characters, but that is probably the intended meaning anyway
(e.g., if you need to see how much memory you need to store a UTF-8 string,
its strlen + 1 will still work as intended).
UTF-8 also transparently supports both the original Unicode which is 16
bits wide and the new ISO 10646 which is 31 bits wide.
>> > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me.
>>
>> Who's forcing it on you?
>
> IETF. All recent RFCs are littered with referenced to UTF-8 in all
>places where reasonable standards would have "8-bit clean" with no
>explicit low-level semantics attached.
All they say is that UTF-8 must be supported by all protocols. They don't
say other encodings must not or should not. If you need the clean bit, use
UTF-7. You can still use MIME.
Personally, I see no problem designing a file that can mix text data with
other data. The "control" characters still exist in Unicode, so it is easy
to a control character followed by the size of data to delimit the start of
binary data.
> I have spent enough time with "unicoders" to become convinced that the
>depth of changes they demand in protocols and libraries is enough to make
>it a game of "everything or nothing" -- partial implementations become
>unsafe because the design of libraries and prococols hinges on the idea
>that only one charset/encoding may exist, so no ways to provide charset
>and encoding are left.
I have not encountered that attitude. I have seen people who see the
advantages of Unicode to the point they do not use anything else in their
work, but I do not see them trying to force everyone else to go Unicode only.
> This is the problem. There is no "text" and "non-text" -- there is
>"valid UTF-8" and everything else. Software designed in "unix style"
>can't do heuristics and guess that if the data has some properties (such
>as passing UTF-8 validity test) it is really some particular kind of data
>and should be treated in some different manner.
It does not need to.
>> Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That
>> would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is
>> here to stay.
>
> So was Microsoft. Almost all mentionings of "is here to stay" that I
>have heard in last seven years were about Microsoft and its standards.
I never said MS was here to stay. I personally do believe Unicode is. Not
because it is perfect, mind you. There are many design flaws in Unicode. In
a way, Unicode was a quick hack. For example, in the old ASCII you could
easily convert a lower case letter to upper case by modifying a single bit.
You can't do that in Unicode. But Unicode is so widespread by now that
trying to create an alternative would most likely cause more problems that
solve. So, it is here to stay, for better or worse. Perhaps not forever,
but for a reasonable period of time.
> It takes a lot of ingenuity to screw up the very basic idea that was put
>into the system design, however as we know Microsoft programmers are very
>skilled at that. If you look at Microsoft APIs, filesystems and recent
>document formats, the use of Unicode is in the very heart of them (and
>being a amateurish conspiracy theorist I consider it to be one of their
>means of interface obfuscation).
Yes, it's in their API but it still sucks. The main problem is that that
API only really works on NT, so a programmer who wants to support both NT
and the 95/98/2000 variety really cannot use the Unicode variety (not to
mention it is limited to 16 bits, so it does not support ISO 10646).
> Unix handles all encodings well precisely because currently it's
>encodings-independent, and adding the support for any of them is a
>relatively small effort.
Then there should be no problem adding Unicode support, right? :)
> I believe, the design of such infrastructure is much more important and
>practical task than "adoption of Unicode" (that I regard as being just as
>practical as conversion of /etc/passwd and output of ifconfig into XML,
>adding embedded objects support in login prompt or rewriting init in
>java).
Again, it's not about "adoption" of Unicode, it's about supporting Unicode
for those who need it. Going Unicode-only would not be wise, but I don't
see anyone here suggesting that.
Cheers,
Adam
-----------------------------------------------------------
"I think, therefore I am."
- Seventeenth Century Philosophy
"I publish what I think, therefore I have."
- Twenty-First Century Action
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:17:32 2000
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To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:05:44 EST."
<3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:17:08 +1000
From: Patryk Zadarnowski <patrykz@ilion.eu.org>
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> > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" --
> >everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone
> >else.
>
> I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already because
> I did some work and it is in the ports.
OK, I didn't say anything ealier because I though it was fairly
obvious that anyone dealind with a *mixed* environment beyond that of
ISO 8859-1 (even if that means just a mixture of ISO 8859-1/2) would
find Unicode support in the kernel a blessing from the heaven. Let me
restate that: I will use it. Currently, if you have a group of ISO
8859-2 users on the system , the ISO 8859-1 people see them as
meaningless junk. I don't even want to think about something like
Arabic.
Pat.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales
<pat@ia64.org> School of Computer Science and Engineering
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:39:51 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 11:40:38 -0400
From: Ted Sikora <tsikora@home.com>
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To: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
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I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the
stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still
RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with
RELENG_4.
--
Ted Sikora
Jtl Development Group
tsikora@powerusersbbs.com
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 8:45:31 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:35:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
| On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
|
| > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from having
| > >Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It isn't me for sure
| >
| > Everyone who works with multilingual documents.
|
| I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English
| and Russian text without Unicode.
Please, try thinking wider. Ever thought a mixture of Russian, Hebrew,
Korean and English? AFAIK no CCS other than Unicode currently can
handle this.
|
| > Everyone who wants to
| > follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually
| > exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally.
|
| "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from
| Unicode Consortium.
|
| > Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
| > "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
| > 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
| > scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
| > text." <RFC 2277>
|
| This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never
| was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any
| input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by
| dozens.
True, personally I don't like the way Unicode Consortium operates
either; I'd prefer a more open system such as IETF. However, it seems
an error to brand Unicode as a bad-motivated idea just because the
operating body is less ideal. And given that RFC 2277 is just a BCP
(Best Current Practice) but not a `standard' document, it doesn't have
to be approved by anyone either. If you don't feel right about it, why
don't you send a short e-mail message to its author?
|
| > >-- I am Russian.
| >
| > So?
|
| So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me. Charset definitions in MIME
| headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can
| create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning
| them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and
| dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be
| processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence.
Nobody is banning anything. Please be reminded that RFC 2277 only
mandates the support for UTF-8. One can still go ahead and use
US-ASCII, EUC-KR, or whatever you want so far as the protocol supports
character set designation such as MIME. And again, RFC 2277 is a BCP.
Unlike standards, BCPs has no enforcing power at all.
|
| One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can
| be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same
| tools without any complex "this is text and this is not"
| application-specific procedures. UTF-8 turns "text" into something that
| gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream
| of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and
| "non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal
| with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations. In
| Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats
| this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as
| text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable
| outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even
| encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's
| a violation of some very basic rules.
Yes, it is true that the entire UN*X world is so deeply rooted in single
byte-oriented world and it's hard to come up with a reasonable migration
path to the multibyte world. But that doesn't justify the byte-oriented
system. It has all too many limitations (which you might not realize
until you had to mix all different languages in one document; I did
:-p), and there has to be an alternative. I'm not saying that the
entire UN*X world should migrate to the Unicode world in months. We all
know that is just impossible.
Eugene
--
Eugene M. Kim <ab@astralblue.com>
"Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music
which people like, or make people who like your music."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 9:16:44 2000
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From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
To: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com, Ted Sikora <tsikora@home.com>
Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:00:01 -0500
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On Tue, 04 Apr 2000, Ted Sikora wrote:
> I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the
> stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still
> RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with
> RELENG_4.
Ignore "STABLE" and "CURRENT". The branches are RELENG_3, RELENG_4, and . the
head branch. You can follow any of them that you wish.
Hopefully the FreeBSD team will eventually learn to use database concepts in
their naming conventions. If they did, "stable" and "current" would be aliases
to the invariant name of the underlying development branch.
A few years back, "the wife of the President of the United States" was
"Barbara". Now it is "Hillary". But in a proper database, you don't store
it that way { WifeOf(Office) ==> Lady } and have to change it when the elections
roll around.
Instead you store:
WifeOf (Politician) ==> Lady
and
Officeholder (Office) ==> Politician
That way, when the election rolls around, you simply change the Officeholders
and the rest is automatic.
In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ...
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 10:21:21 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:21:16 -0800 (PDT)
From: "Nicole Harrington." <nicole@unixgirl.com>
To: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com
Subject: RE: 4.0-STABLE?
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
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On 04-Apr-00 Ted Sikora wrote:
> I wanted to upgrade several production servers to 4.0 and follow the
> stable branch. Has 4.0-STABLE been established yet or is stable still
> RELENG_3? I planned on installing 4.0-RELEASE and then using CVSup with
> RELENG_4.
>
> --
> Ted Sikora
> Jtl Development Group
> tsikora@powerusersbbs.com
>
Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in the
pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X and
that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4 at
the moment.
Nicole
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/
// \\
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 11:16:16 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:15:52 +0200
From: Wilko Bulte <wkb@chello.nl>
To: FreeBSD hackers list <FreeBSD-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: DEFPA PCI FDDI cards for trade
Message-ID: <20000404201552.A1363@yedi.wbnet>
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!! Before someone shouts at me: I know this is not a FS list
But I know some folks were looking for FDDI cards to use on their
FreeBSD machines. So that's why..
I have 2 brandnew surplus Digital DEFPA-AB (SAS, MMF, PCI) cards for trade.
Please contact me *off-list* if you are interested.
--
Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org
http://www.tcja.nl
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 11:25:57 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 11:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English
> >and Russian text without Unicode.
>
> Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in
> English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only
> one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist
> at the time, and I had to use graphics.
There is another format that does the same thing better -- MIME
multipart documents. Too bad, the development in that direction stopped
after certain stupid decision made by some people in IETF.
> >> Everyone who wants to
> >> follow a single international standard as opposed to a slew of mutually
> >> exclusive local standards. Anyone who thinks globally.
>
> > "Globally" in this case means following self-proclaimed unificators from
> >Unicode Consortium.
>
> I don't know what you mean by "unificators." Why self proclaimed? Those
> were people with a need for which they found a solution.
With a need to find a cause to break backward compatiobility with
everything and sell more software -- just like ITU.
I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be
useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate
as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and
communications.
> Unicode Consortium
> has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely
> accepted.
So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone
else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and
Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of
ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of
people.
> You're free to create your own system, or ignore it all together.
> But just because you see no need for Unicode does not mean you should be
> upset when people are willing to work on Unicode support in FreeBSD.
I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" --
everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone
else.
>
> >> Anyone who has anything to do with the Internet must deal with UTF-8:
> >> "Protocols MUST be able to use the UTF-8 charset, which consists of the ISO
> >> 10646 coded character set combined with the UTF-8 character encoding
> >> scheme, as defined in [10646] Annex R (published in Amendment 2), for all
> >> text." <RFC 2277>
>
> > This is not approved by ANYONE but a bunch of "unificators". It never
> >was widely discussed, and affected people never had a chance to give any
> >input. This is the same kind of "standard documents" that ITU issues by
> >dozens.
>
> Affected in what way? Many ways of encoding Unicode were proposed,
> developed, and used. Most of them are history by now. UTF-8 is the best way
> to encode Unicode to this day. Don't like it? Design a better one.
I am not talking about Unicode representations and encodings but about
Unicode itself. I agree that UTF-8 is the only way to marry Unicode with
text and Unix, however I don't see much point in doing that.
>
> >> >-- I am Russian.
> >>
> >> So?
> >
> > So I don't want UTF-8 to be forced on me.
>
> Who's forcing it on you?
IETF. All recent RFCs are littered with referenced to UTF-8 in all
places where reasonable standards would have "8-bit clean" with no
explicit low-level semantics attached.
> > Charset definitions in MIME
> >headers exist for a reason. If we want to make something usable we can
> >create a format that can encapsulate existing charsets instead of banning
> >them altogether and replacing with "unified" stuff where cut(1) and
> >dd(1) can produce the output that will be declared "illegal" to be
> >processed as text because it can not be a valid UTF-8 sequence.
>
> You are worried about nothing. No one in this discussion has said anything
> about making anything but Unicode and UTF-8 "illegal." Supporting Unicode
> does not mean stopping support for everything else.
I have spent enough time with "unicoders" to become convinced that the
depth of changes they demand in protocols and libraries is enough to make
it a game of "everything or nothing" -- partial implementations become
unsafe because the design of libraries and prococols hinges on the idea
that only one charset/encoding may exist, so no ways to provide charset
and encoding are left.
> > One of the most basic strengths of Unix is the ease with which text can
> >be manipulated, and how "non-text" data can be processed using the same
> >tools without any complex "this is text and this is not"
> >application-specific procedures.
>
> Nothing complex about it. UTF-8 uses a very simple algorithm which makes it
> very simple to distinguish text from non-text.
This is the problem. There is no "text" and "non-text" -- there is
"valid UTF-8" and everything else. Software designed in "unix style"
can't do heuristics and guess that if the data has some properties (such
as passing UTF-8 validity test) it is really some particular kind of data
and should be treated in some different manner. It's irresponsible to
assume that everything that "looks like UTF-8" is a text, and everything
else is "binary" unless all the program does is displaying the data to the
user. What is worse there is the situation where the UTF-8 validity test
is applied to some endless stream (such as data arriving to stdin) -- for
how long the data should contain only valid UTF-8 sequences to be
considered "text"? And what should the program do if somewhere in the
middle of 65537'th megabyte a "non-text" sequence of bytes is found?
> >UTF-8 turns "text" into something that
> >gives us a dilemma -- to redesign everything to treat "text" as the stream
> >of UTF-8 encoded Unicode (and make it impossible to combine text and
> >"non-text" without a lot of pain), or to leave tools as they are and deal
> >with "invalid" output from perfectly valid operations.
>
> You don't have to treat everything as the stream of UTF-8 encoded Unicode.
> Again, supporting Unicode does not mean EVERYTHING must be Unicode. That
> would not make sense, at least not now. It may in the future. Unicode is
> here to stay.
So was Microsoft. Almost all mentionings of "is here to stay" that I
have heard in last seven years were about Microsoft and its standards. I
hope people are now slowly starting to realize that this particular
monster is as little immortal as others were before it.
> >In
> >Windows/Office/... that lives and feeds on complex and unparceable formats
> >this problem couldn't appear or even thought of -- "text" doesn't exist as
> >text at all, and the less stuff will look as something that can be usable
> >outside of strict "object" environment, the better (they now don't even
> >encode it in UTF-8, and use bare 16-bit Unicode). In Unixlike system it's
> >a violation of some very basic rules.
>
> What does Windows have to do with Unicode? Windows support for Unicode
> sucks royally. Except for NT, Windows' Unicode support is virtually
> non-existent.
It takes a lot of ingenuity to screw up the very basic idea that was put
into the system design, however as we know Microsoft programmers are very
skilled at that. If you look at Microsoft APIs, filesystems and recent
document formats, the use of Unicode is in the very heart of them (and
being a amateurish conspiracy theorist I consider it to be one of their
means of interface obfuscation).
> When did it stop Unix programmers from doing something Microsoft cannot
> handle? Unix already handles Unicode better than anything under Windows.
> For example, Lynx handles Unicode quite well, and it does it on text-only
> displays that have no way of supporting a multitude of fonts.
Unix handles all encodings well precisely because currently it's
encodings-independent, and adding the support for any of them is a
relatively small effort. However lacking the _infrastructure_ to support
charset/encoding/language information along with the text (MIME was a good
start but it was insufficient, and its development stopped too soon, so
it's horribly outdated now) it can become a "battleground of formats" just
like everything else is now, and it will be very sad if the at the result
the flexibility will be lost, and some bloated "standard" will emerge just
because a bunch of people were able to organize their "standard committee"
aggressive enough to silence everyone else, like it already happened at
IETF.
I believe, the design of such infrastructure is much more important and
practical task than "adoption of Unicode" (that I regard as being just as
practical as conversion of /etc/passwd and output of ifconfig into XML,
adding embedded objects support in login prompt or rewriting init in
java).
--
Alex
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 12: 7:58 2000
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From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> At 22:51 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > I agree that Unicode created a good list of glyphs, and it can be
> >useful for fonts and conversion tables, but it's completely inappropriate
> >as the base of format used in real-life applications for storage and
> >communications.
>
> Oh, I think it's great for communications. I design web sites. It is good
> to have a single character representation supported by Internet standards.
> Saves a lot of work. Before UTF-8 became widely accepted, a typical Slovak
> web page started by a menu of choices of which encoding your browser
> supported. You had to have 3 - 4 versions of each page. A major pain! Now
> you only need one.
This is a problem, however Unicode is not the only solution -- actually
it's the worst of all solutions -- it solves simple problem only to create
a lot of complex ones.
>
> Or even when designing English pages in a typographically correct way
> (opening and closing quotes, and things like that), it was a pain before
> UTF-8 because while ISO-8859-1 is the assumed default, Microsoft, in its
> infinite wisdom created a slight modification of ISO-8859-1 which they
> called ANSI, and which the uninitiated commonly believed to be the same as
> ISO-8859-1. As a result, there are a myriad of web pages out there that use
> the Microsoft encoding, and there are those that use true ISO-8859-1. So
> many browsers assume that you are using the MS "standard." It's a real mess.
Misrepresentation of one popular encoding in software of one company
doesn't mean that it should be replaced with another, much more complex
one, by everyone else.
>
> So, in all my recent pages I use UTF-8, and the problem is solved.
>
> >> Unicode Consortium
> >> has no power to force Unicode on anyone. It just happens that it was widely
> >> accepted.
> >
> > So far only by one company actually "accepted" it -- Microsoft. Everyone
> >else (except Java/Sun) just happened to be depended on them. Java and
> >Plan9 are special cases because both are essentially endless storages of
> >ivory-tower design idiosyncrasy and arbitrary decisions made by handful of
> >people.
>
> I was not talking about companies. I was talking about people with genuine
> i18n needs.
People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that
local encodings are very limiting in the form they exist now, however
they, not Unicode, are standards used in real life. If some encapsulation
format (not as limited as iso 2022 and not as restrictive as MIME
multipart) will be created to support multiple
charsets/encodings/languages in one document in labeled chunks, the same
problem would be solved with minimal changes in existing software and
minimal document conversion efforts. This solution will be far superior to
Unicode, and even for "web" use it can be made compatible with charsets
support in existing browsers.
[skipped without much of disagreement]
> Again, it's not about "adoption" of Unicode, it's about supporting Unicode
> for those who need it. Going Unicode-only would not be wise, but I don't
> see anyone here suggesting that.
After looking at what happened to IETF documents, XML and perl I can
only come to conclusion that Unicode, once included in some system that
didn't have multiple-charset document support infrastructure before that,
starts requiring more and more sacrifices to be supported decently until
the support of other encodings becomes impossible or significantly more
difficult than support of Unicode. I am not against the support of any
charset, encoding or language used in the real world, Unicode included.
However after seeing how Unicode "support" efforts quickly turn into
"adoption" all across the libraries/protocols/applications layers, I
believe that only if some decent charset/encoding/language labeling
infrastructure will be developed, it will be possible to contain
charsets and prevent their "leaking" to application level.
Leaking of ASCII (infamous 7-bit restriction that was present for no
understandable reason in a lot of protocols and utilities) was a painful
enough experience already, and it looks like it's fixed in most of stuff
by now. Leaking of local charsets (especially iso 8859-1 and its
modifications) was bad, however it was mostly prevented by locale support
(even though it is clumsy and unusable in multilingual documents). Leaking
of Unicode and UTF-8 can start something even worse because it's already
evident that many applications written to support UTF-8 character format,
have the hardcoded assumption of this format in their i/o and parsing
routines that otherwise are supposed to be either charset-blind, or use
external, charset-dependent routines to determine characters boundaries.
I don't want to be misunderstood as the opponent of all things Unicode
-- as I have said, its support is useful. However I oppose:
1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best
possible way to handle multilingual documents.
2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense
of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some
unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine
if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not.
I see the "support" or "adoption" of Unicode as a threat only if it will
be made based on those ideas, and I think that the development of
charset/encoding/language labeling or encapsulation format and handling
routines, even if it will not be "blessed" by IETF or TOG, will provide
means of safe, compatible and relatively easy handling of multilingual
documents, including ones that are completely or in part are in Unicode.
Unicode documents themselves suffer from the lack of language-labeling
information, and there is (currently unused however "standardized") way to
label _language_ (not charset, subset or encoding) within the Unicode
text. It's not used because it contradicts with the idea of "easy",
completely stateless and non-encapsulated Unicode text, so its support is
allmost completely impossible in existing Unicode support
infrastructures. Instead language labeling is pushed up into XML (or other
formats) parsers and applications thus making it application-dependent and
ultimately unreliable. I think that if some more reasonable labeling
(encapsulation, metadata or attributes handling -- in whatever way it
will be called) system will be created for text "documents", it can solve
this problem by just assigning charset, encoding and language to pieces of
text, and leaving "unknown" or unattributed text alone, not allowing
language-specific or charset-dependent routines to touch it. In system
like this Unicode will be labeled as Unicode, UTF-8 will be labeled as
UTF-8, and Russian language will be labeled as Russian language
independently, thus allowing to build a languages support infrastructure
that in most of places can use existing formats safely as languages will
be clearly marked where known, no guesswork will be applied, and no
conversion to Unicode (or anything else) will be required.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:36:33 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:35:57 -0400 (EDT)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops
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Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs when
writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every 64k or
so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful.
At least when running against a Solaris NFS server, these
frequent commits really kill our write bandwidth.
The commits are initiated out of the bufdaemon:
nfs_commit(e06866c0,360000,0,10000,c8aa5e00) at nfs_commit+0x52a
nfs_doio(d3088158,c8aa5e00,0,d3088158,40084040) at nfs_doio+0x371
nfs_strategy(ddef1ec0) at nfs_strategy+0x68
nfs_writebp(d3088158,1,ddee5920,ddef1ef8,c0180e42) at nfs_writebp+0xdc
nfs_bwrite(ddef1eec,c02a15c0,e06866c0,d3088158,ddef1f28) at nfs_bwrite+0x16
bawrite(d3088158,d30faff0,0,40084040,d30fbae8) at bawrite+0x32
cluster_wbuild(e06866c0,2000,1b8,10,d30fc328) at cluster_wbuild+0x493
vfs_bio_awrite(d30fc328,3f,c0181f8c,c016aef5,0) at vfs_bio_awrite+0x1a4
flushbufqueues(0,8000,c024be00,0,b0206) at flushbufqueues+0x116
buf_daemon(0) at buf_daemon+0x8f
fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8
The "problem" is that flushbufqueues calls vfs_bio_awrite on the buf's
that need commiting. We then go through the overhead of clustering up
64k worth of data & pass it down. It eventually ends up in nfs_doio()
which finally realizes that the bufs just need to be committed & calls
nfs_commit() on them. This is repeated for every 64k of data.
I have an idea on how to reduce these commits & a proof of concept
implementation of it. My idea is to have nfs_doio() call a function
(which I've called nfs_megacommit()) to consolodate all the
B_NEEDCOMMIT bufs from a particular file into one large commit. This
nfs_megacommit() function is basically a cut-n-paste of the top half
of nfs_flush().
I just tried it this morning & it appears to work. Over a 1Gb/s
(Alteon, Jumbo frames) link, my write bandwidth increases from
5-8MB/sec to 17-18MB/sec when talking to a Solaris (2.7, i86) NFS
server & writing a 375MB file. The server's nfsstat looks like this.
Before:
Version 3: (54262 calls)
null getattr setattr lookup access readlink
0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 3 0% 0 0%
read write create mkdir symlink mknod
0 0% 48325 89% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 5932 10%
After:
Version 3: (48078 calls)
null getattr setattr lookup access readlink
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 0 0%
read write create mkdir symlink mknod
0 0% 48027 99% 1 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit
0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 48 0%
Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally
broken? Is it worth pursuing?
Thanks,
Drew
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin
Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu
Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:48:53 2000
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From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@emsphone.com>
To: Andrew Gallatin <gallatin@cs.duke.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops
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In the last episode (Apr 04), Andrew Gallatin said:
>
> Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs
> when writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every
> 64k or so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful.
Hmm. Mounting a Solaris box and creating a large file, I see commits
too (a 64K commit every 128K or so on my system). Mounting another
FreeBSD box, I see absolutely no commits at all.
--
Dan Nelson
dnelson@emsphone.com
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From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
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Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops
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* Andrew Gallatin <gallatin@cs.duke.edu> [000404 14:03] wrote:
>
> Currently FreeBSD issues a very large number of NFSv3 commit rpcs when
> writing a sequential file. They average out to about one every 64k or
> so. Solaris, on the other hand, issues only a handful.
>
> At least when running against a Solaris NFS server, these
> frequent commits really kill our write bandwidth.
>
> The commits are initiated out of the bufdaemon:
>
> nfs_commit(e06866c0,360000,0,10000,c8aa5e00) at nfs_commit+0x52a
> nfs_doio(d3088158,c8aa5e00,0,d3088158,40084040) at nfs_doio+0x371
> nfs_strategy(ddef1ec0) at nfs_strategy+0x68
> nfs_writebp(d3088158,1,ddee5920,ddef1ef8,c0180e42) at nfs_writebp+0xdc
> nfs_bwrite(ddef1eec,c02a15c0,e06866c0,d3088158,ddef1f28) at nfs_bwrite+0x16
> bawrite(d3088158,d30faff0,0,40084040,d30fbae8) at bawrite+0x32
> cluster_wbuild(e06866c0,2000,1b8,10,d30fc328) at cluster_wbuild+0x493
> vfs_bio_awrite(d30fc328,3f,c0181f8c,c016aef5,0) at vfs_bio_awrite+0x1a4
> flushbufqueues(0,8000,c024be00,0,b0206) at flushbufqueues+0x116
> buf_daemon(0) at buf_daemon+0x8f
> fork_trampoline() at fork_trampoline+0x8
>
> The "problem" is that flushbufqueues calls vfs_bio_awrite on the buf's
> that need commiting. We then go through the overhead of clustering up
> 64k worth of data & pass it down. It eventually ends up in nfs_doio()
> which finally realizes that the bufs just need to be committed & calls
> nfs_commit() on them. This is repeated for every 64k of data.
>
> I have an idea on how to reduce these commits & a proof of concept
> implementation of it. My idea is to have nfs_doio() call a function
> (which I've called nfs_megacommit()) to consolodate all the
> B_NEEDCOMMIT bufs from a particular file into one large commit. This
> nfs_megacommit() function is basically a cut-n-paste of the top half
> of nfs_flush().
>
> I just tried it this morning & it appears to work. Over a 1Gb/s
> (Alteon, Jumbo frames) link, my write bandwidth increases from
> 5-8MB/sec to 17-18MB/sec when talking to a Solaris (2.7, i86) NFS
> server & writing a 375MB file. The server's nfsstat looks like this.
>
> Before:
>
> Version 3: (54262 calls)
> null getattr setattr lookup access readlink
> 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 3 0% 0 0%
> read write create mkdir symlink mknod
> 0 0% 48325 89% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
> remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus
> 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
> fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit
> 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 5932 10%
>
>
> After:
>
> Version 3: (48078 calls)
> null getattr setattr lookup access readlink
> 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 1 0% 1 0% 0 0%
> read write create mkdir symlink mknod
> 0 0% 48027 99% 1 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
> remove rmdir rename link readdir readdirplus
> 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 0 0%
> fsstat fsinfo pathconf commit
> 0 0% 0 0% 0 0% 48 0%
>
>
> Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally
> broken? Is it worth pursuing?
http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff
only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to
scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't
want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits
on thier behalf.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:57:50 2000
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 4 Apr 2000 22:53:19 +0200
Message-ID: <8cdknv$1bel$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
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Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> wrote:
> I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" --
I WILL.
I want to be able to mention Henry Charri{e grave}re and
Stanis{l stroke}aw Lem in a single document and spell those names
correctly. Actually, that's a real world example. I already do on a web
page, and of course this is only possible because of the underlying
Unicode character set of HTML.
I want to be able to give a book title in Cyrillic or Greek.
I want to be able to quote from _Beowulf_.
I *desperately* want to use IPA rather than various ad-hoc ASCII
transcriptions.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 13:59:36 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT)
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops
In-Reply-To: <20000404141641.P20770@fw.wintelcom.net>
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Alfred Perlstein writes:
> >
> > Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally
> > broken? Is it worth pursuing?
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff
>
> only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to
> scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't
> want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits
> on thier behalf.
>
I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken?
(the name sorta implies that it us ;)
Thanks!
Drew
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin
Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu
Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 14: 7:10 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 14:32:43 -0700
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Andrew Gallatin <gallatin@cs.duke.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: reducing the number of NFSv3 commit ops
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* Andrew Gallatin <gallatin@cs.duke.edu> [000404 14:25] wrote:
>
> Alfred Perlstein writes:
> > >
> > > Can anybody tell me if doing something like this is fundamentally
> > > broken? Is it worth pursuing?
> >
> > http://www.freebsd.org/~alfred/nfs_supercommit_broken.diff
> >
> > only grab as many adjacent blocks as possible, you don't want to
> > scan the entire file's buffer list for each commit, you also don't
> > want to interfere with other client's caching forcing sever commits
> > on thier behalf.
> >
>
> I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken?
> (the name sorta implies that it us ;)
I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it
working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent
commit blocks to the already clustered IO.
I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time
to give it a retry in a while.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 14:58:38 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:58:46 -0400
To: Patryk Zadarnowski <patrykz@ilion.eu.org>,
"G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 1:17 AM +1000 4/5/00, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote:
> > > I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered
> > > "I will" -- everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it
> > > will benefit someone else.
> >
> > I thought I did. OK, let me restate: I will! I actually do already
> > because I did some work and it is in the ports.
>
>OK, I didn't say anything ealier because I though it was fairly
>obvious that anyone dealing with a *mixed* environment beyond that of
>ISO 8859-1 (even if that means just a mixture of ISO 8859-1/2) would
>find Unicode support in the kernel a blessing from the heaven. Let me
>restate that: I will use it. Currently, if you have a group of ISO
>8859-2 users on the system , the ISO 8859-1 people see them as
>meaningless junk. I don't even want to think about something like
>Arabic.
I also think this issue is so obvious that it seems silly to even
have to mention it. If anyone is working on unicode support in any
part of the system, then more power to them. Even if no one did use
unicode support, it is mighty nice to have it sitting there should
the need arise. If there is a superior alternative down the road,
let's call that unicode-II, then it would also be great if FreeBSD
has support for that too. I am not aware of any current alternative
which is as widely pursued as unicode, though, and it seems pretty
obvious that it would benefit FreeBSD if we were among the operating
systems which understand what to do with it.
I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO*
options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even
if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing.
If some specific change for unicode does break things, then I can
see arguing that change. I can't fathom why anyone would argue
against unicode support per se.
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 15: 7: 8 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:08:56 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
MikeM <mike_bsdlists@yahoo.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr>
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On Mon, Apr 03, 2000 at 08:59:51PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
>
> > > Really the question is much more basic -- who benefits from
> > > having Unicode (or Unicode in the form of UTF-8) support. It
> > > isn't me for sure
> >
> > Everyone who works with multilingual documents.
>
> I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain
> English and Russian text without Unicode.
This is bilingual. I have found myself in the need to write in English,
Modern Greek (one accent), and Ancient Greek (many accents). This
is not possible using 8-bit fonts, since the glyphs for the accented
ancient greek alone are much more than 128.
Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
console is a Good Thing(TM).
- Giorgos Keramidas
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 15:58:58 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 18:59:31 -0400
To: keramida@ceid.upatras.gr
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 5:08 PM +0300 4/4/00, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> ... I have found myself in the need to write in English,
>Modern Greek (one accent), and Ancient Greek (many accents). This
>is not possible using 8-bit fonts, since the glyphs for the accented
>ancient greek alone are much more than 128.
>
>Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support
>on the console is a Good Thing(TM).
I am sure that many an administrator has found themselves staring at
the console at some point in their life, and thinking:
"This is all Greek to me..."
:-)
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 16: 5:47 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:07:41 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems
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Since I received exactly ZERO responses to my plea for help in making
my network device driver a loadable module, I'm now trying to compile
my driver into the kernel.
First, I made up a makefile and got my driver compiling cleanly
standalone in my directory. So the code is known good with respect
to compiling under FreeBSD with gcc. Then I moved the code under
the /sys hierarchy, fixed up my configuration file, and did a 'config'
for my kernel. So far, so good.
But then when I moved to the compile directory and did a 'make depend',
all heck broke loose. I'm getting hundreds of errors and/or warnings.
Checking the code, it seems to be complaining (or rather getting
confused) about two major things:
1. Comments following a #if or #ifdef, for example:
#ifdef FOO // not yet tested
While this only generates a 'warning', I'm also getting actual
(supposed) errors about 'unbalanced #endif' and the like. Though
it is possible these errors are related to problem number 2 instead:
2. It complains (doesn't say 'warning' so I suppose it takes them
as errors?) about "unterminated string or character constant"
whenever I have an apostrophe WITHIN A // COMMENT !!! For example,
just including the word "don't" within a comment is causing problems.
So how do I "turn off" these "features" of 'make depend' ??? ;-)
Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine
for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine
(stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good
C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are
over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing
all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions
would be appreciated...
Thanks,
Gary
--
=======================================================
Gary Corcoran - Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
Lucent Microelectronics - Client Access Broadband Systems
Communications Protocol & Driver Development Group
"We make the drivers that make communications work"
Email: gcorcoran@lucent.com
-------------------------------------------------------
There are only two kinds of machines - those that fail
little by little, and those that fail all at once.
=======================================================
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17: 2:34 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:02:20 -0400
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000404200220.A82098@sasami.jurai.net>
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You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 11:03:58AM -0700:
>
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
>
> > At 20:59 03-04-2000 -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > > I feel perfectly fine with "multilingual" documents that contain English
> > >and Russian text without Unicode.
> >
> > Those are bilingual, not multilingual. I once had to create a document in
> > English, Slovak, and Sanskrit (using Devanagari alphabet). There is only
> > one standard that makes it possible: Unicode. Too bad UTF-8 did not exist
> > at the time, and I had to use graphics.
>
> There is another format that does the same thing better -- MIME
> multipart documents.
You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance,
want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of
Russian sentences?
I don't think so.
> I have just asked, who will benefit from it. No one answered "I will" --
> everyone who makes Unicode support believes that it will benefit someone
> else.
I will. I need to handle French, Hebrew, and Russian, often in the same
document. I want to be able to publish Russian poetry in its original
pre-1917 spelling, which includes letters missing from existing Russian
encodings. I need IPA. I need math symbols not just in TeX documents.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:19:40 -0400
From: Dan Moschuk <dan@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments
Message-ID: <20000404201940.A8265@spirit.jaded.net>
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| First, I made up a makefile and got my driver compiling cleanly
| standalone in my directory. So the code is known good with respect
| to compiling under FreeBSD with gcc. Then I moved the code under
| the /sys hierarchy, fixed up my configuration file, and did a 'config'
| for my kernel. So far, so good.
|
| But then when I moved to the compile directory and did a 'make depend',
| all heck broke loose. I'm getting hundreds of errors and/or warnings.
| Checking the code, it seems to be complaining (or rather getting
| confused) about two major things:
[ snip. ]
When you compile standalone, do you use the same -W options as the kernel
does when it compiles? That may account for the millions of warnings you
getting when trying to build your driver with the regular kernel build.
Cheers,
--
Dan Moschuk (TFreak!dan@freebsd.org)
"Waste not fresh tears on old griefs."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:22: 5 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:22:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
> I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO*
> options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even
> if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing.
The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's
based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much
flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as
the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
As demands for sopisticated processing of multilingual texts will
increase, "Unicode-only" systems will demonstrate their ridiculous limits
and ambiguity, however if no multiple-charset/multiple-language
infrastructure in libraries, formats, protocols, text and document editors
and interpreter-based programming languages will be in place, there will
be no way to improve the situation. This is why I think that the design of
the language support infrastructure is an extremely important taks, and if
it will succeed, efficient, modularized support of charsets/encodings,
including Unicode, can be implemented painlessly.
> If some specific change for unicode does break things, then I can
> see arguing that change. I can't fathom why anyone would argue
> against unicode support per se.
I am not against the support for Unicode. I just never have seen an
attempt of providing usable Unicode support that didn't leave scorched
earth to any other possible attempt of supporting multilingual environment
or even single-charset environment other than iso8859-1 or Unicode. I
think that instead of blind following the ideas of "one charset" we need
to design something that can painlessly accept various charsets in the
same document/stream/etc (just like MIME does in its own clumsy way). If
Unicode support will be implemented on top of it, I will be the last
person to criticize it.
--
Alex
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000404200220.A82098@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
> You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance,
> want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of
> Russian sentences?
>
> I don't think so.
This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or
sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the
headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:38:15 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041723030.11214-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
> > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance,
> > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of
> > Russian sentences?
> >
> > I don't think so.
>
> This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or
> sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the
> headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later.
I have to add that I agree that the way, MIME multipart is handled is
primitive and inconvenient for such applications, however this is not the
result of any flaw in its design, only of the lack of progress after
"everything should adopt Unicode" doctrine was declared. One may argue
that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
typesetting.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 17:53:42 2000
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From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041104290.6811-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> I don't want to be misunderstood as the opponent of all things Unicode
>-- as I have said, its support is useful. However I oppose:
>
>1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best
>possible way to handle multilingual documents.
>
>2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense
>of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some
>unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine
>if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not.
Then you have nothing to fear. This is FreeBSD we are talking about.
This is not some control freak company. We will have as much, or as
little, Unicode support as we put in it.
I don't see anyone saying we should drop everything in favor of Unicode,
let alone do I see anyone volunteering to do it.
--
Where two fight, third one wins
-- Slovak proverb
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18: 2:17 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:59:55 -0500
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004032038040.7178-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr>
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
>Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
>console is a Good Thing(TM).
I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations.
The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). If
you change it for one character, you change it for everything on the
console. And this was designed by *International* Business Machines! :)
I see the main way of supporting Unicode in providing libraries that
programs can use to convert between Unicode and local display.
I did some of it with my i18ntools. I wanted to do more, but could not
due to health reasons, as mentioned already. I am in a better shape
now, and hopefully will be able to resume the work I started. But it
won't happen in the near future for reasons other than else (mostly
because I am broke and am concentrating my programming efforts on
software I can sell - but when my current project is completed, I will
*probably* do more work on Unicode support for FreeBSD).
Cheers,
Adam
--
Suppose you were an idiot.
Suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I'm repeating myself...
-- Mark Twain
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18:16:11 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:14:12 -0500
From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net>
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's
>based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
>characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much
>flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as
>the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
>know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be
the most inclusive one in existence.
I also strongly disagree with your view of it being simplistic. Unicode
is not, and never was, meant to be a high level linguistic system. Rather,
it provides primitives for such a system. It is a map, nothing else. It
is system-independent. It does not even specify how the map is to be
encoded (e.g., UTF-8, or 16 bits, etc).
The Unicode Consortium does provide all kinds of text files that help
programmers use the map better: They provide such information as which
character is upper case, lower case, digit, control, etc; how to convert
upper case to lower case, and things like that.
It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is
not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of their
use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters
differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character
which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted differently.
And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters.
Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does
it well. How we use it, is up to us.
Cheers,
Adam
P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron.
I wonder how it is going to be handled. :)
--
Can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows!
-- Karel Èapek
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 18:48:33 2000
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To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Help? Device driver 'make depend' errors from comments
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 19:07:41 EDT."
<38EA75BD.EEA71C22@lucent.com>
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From: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>
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> Since I received exactly ZERO responses to my plea for help in making
> my network device driver a loadable module, I'm now trying to compile
> my driver into the kernel.
Go back to the module if this is for 4.x; I don't recall your original
post, sorry, but feel free to pass it back off the list.
> Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine
> for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine
> (stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good
> C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are
> over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing
> all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions
> would be appreciated...
Oh joy. It was probably written for MSVC in that case. You're going to
have to compile as a module in order to get different compiler warning
flags; the code you're trying to build isn't really valid C and you'll
have to work around this.
Please let us look at your module problems again, and poke me
specifically about it if you're not getting answers.
--
\\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith
\\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:18:23 2000
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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000404201412.C261@whizkidtech.net>
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's
> >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
> >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much
> >flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as
> >the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> >know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
>
> Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be
> the most inclusive one in existence.
It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
[skipped]
> It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is
> not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of their
> use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters
> differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character
> which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted differently.
> And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters.
This is the kind of work that currently nonexistent language support
infrastructure should do -- when some language is encountered in
"multilingual" document/protocol/... its name can be used to load the
procedures (in this case sorting but it may be hyphenation, phonetic
match, etc.) for that particular language, and if no matched language is
known or supported, data should be just left alone. The same
infrastructure can be designed to support charsets and encodings, doing
conversion between them (and unicode) only where possible and necessary,
and providing the text in either "original" or "preferred", "supported",
etc. encoding for the language for the particular operation that should be
performed on the text. If such thing will be implemented, all existing
charset-specific routines that now exist in various places, can be reused,
and compatibility with existing software can be achieved without any
significant pain.
> Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does
> it well. How we use it, is up to us.
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
>
> P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron.
> I wonder how it is going to be handled. :)
It was handled pretty well for such a primitive system as pine in
xterm. Since your charset was iso 8859-2, it was marked as such in
Content-Type header of the message. pine given me a warning:
---8<---
[ The following text is in the "iso-8859-2" character set. ]
[ Your display is set for the "koi8-r" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
--->8---
and displayed the text. xterm used the default font that happened to be in
koi8-r charset, displaying C-caron as cyrillic ha. I have read the
warning, manually switched xterm to a font in iso 8859-2 charset, and text
was displayed correctly. If I used a gui-based MUA such as Netscape (what
I didn't because Netscape Messenger sucks for reasons that have nothing to
do with its charsets support), it would just display the message in the
charset defined in the header.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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:>
:> I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken?
:> (the name sorta implies that it us ;)
:
:I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it
:working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent
:commit blocks to the already clustered IO.
:
:I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time
:to give it a retry in a while.
:
:--
:-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
:"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
If I remember the right patch, I think my comment on it was
that the buffers should use non-blocking locks rather then
blocking locks in order to avoid deadlocks, which it looks like
you did.
This may still patch into -stable but it probably isn't safe
to patch into -current. It still looks a little rough but
the general concept is sound.
-Matt
Matthew Dillon
<dillon@backplane.com>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:41:50 2000
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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:41:19 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <garycor@home.com>
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Mike Smith wrote:
> Go back to the module if this is for 4.x;
I originally asked about making a network driver module for 3.4.
I was hoping for either a "here's how you do it" or at least an "it's
not possible with 3.4" response...
> > Now this is a common codebase for this driver, which compiles fine
> > for Windows and Linux, and, as mentioned above, it compiles fine
> > (stand-alone) for FreeBSD. So obviously it is syntactically-good
> > C code for gcc, so why am I having all these problems? There are
> > over 50,000 lines of code, so please don't tell me to go changing
> > all the comments and #if lines! Any (other :) suggestions
> > would be appreciated...
>
> Oh joy. It was probably written for MSVC in that case.
How did you guess?... ;-) Yes, originally developed for Windows.
Ported to Linux (as a module) without many problems; now I'm the
"lone wolf" trying to add support for FreeBSD...
> You're going to have to compile as a module in order to get different
> compiler warning flags;
Okay - that's what I needed to know. It looks like I should definitely
be targeting 4.x instead of 3.x. :( I'll install 4.0, see if there are
any network driver module examples, and get back to you-all if I have
any more problems...
Thanks,
Gary
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 19:42: 6 2000
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Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:41:49 -0500
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Regardless of how you feel about Unicode--whatever, just think of how
horribly terrible things would be if people actually had to *speak* to one
another.
gah, the torture.
;-)
Dan
gh
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:05:05PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > > The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and
it's
> > >based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
> > >characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so
much
> > >flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned
as
> > >the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> > >know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
> >
> > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be
> > the most inclusive one in existence.
>
> It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
> and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
>
> [skipped]
>
> > It does not, for example, provide sorting order. It cannot. Unicode is
> > not about linguistics, it is about mapping characters regardless of
their
> > use in specific languages. And different languages sort characters
> > differently. For example, in Slovak, "ch" is considered a character
> > which belongs after the "h". In other languages it is sorted
differently.
> > And in most languages, it is just two unrelated characters.
>
> This is the kind of work that currently nonexistent language support
> infrastructure should do -- when some language is encountered in
> "multilingual" document/protocol/... its name can be used to load the
> procedures (in this case sorting but it may be hyphenation, phonetic
> match, etc.) for that particular language, and if no matched language is
> known or supported, data should be just left alone. The same
> infrastructure can be designed to support charsets and encodings, doing
> conversion between them (and unicode) only where possible and necessary,
> and providing the text in either "original" or "preferred", "supported",
> etc. encoding for the language for the particular operation that should be
> performed on the text. If such thing will be implemented, all existing
> charset-specific routines that now exist in various places, can be reused,
> and compatibility with existing software can be achieved without any
> significant pain.
>
> > Unicode is not simplistic. It does what its stated goal is, and it does
> > it well. How we use it, is up to us.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Adam
> >
> > P.S. Hmmm... Interesting. I noticed my random quote contains a C-caron.
> > I wonder how it is going to be handled. :)
>
> It was handled pretty well for such a primitive system as pine in
> xterm. Since your charset was iso 8859-2, it was marked as such in
> Content-Type header of the message. pine given me a warning:
>
> ---8<---
> [ The following text is in the "iso-8859-2" character set. ]
> [ Your display is set for the "koi8-r" character set. ]
> [ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
> --->8---
>
> and displayed the text. xterm used the default font that happened to be in
> koi8-r charset, displaying C-caron as cyrillic ha. I have read the
> warning, manually switched xterm to a font in iso 8859-2 charset, and text
> was displayed correctly. If I used a gui-based MUA such as Netscape (what
> I didn't because Netscape Messenger sucks for reasons that have nothing to
> do with its charsets support), it would just display the message in the
> charset defined in the header.
>
> --
> Alex
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
> -- Anonymous Coward
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>
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* Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> [000404 19:59] wrote:
> :>
> :> I'll look at that tonight. But before I do -- why is it broken?
> :> (the name sorta implies that it us ;)
> :
> :I'm not sure, i did it a while back and ran out of time to get it
> :working, it functions in the strategy layer and tries to grab adjacent
> :commit blocks to the already clustered IO.
> :
> :I think I may have some math errors or something, I haven't had time
> :to give it a retry in a while.
> :
> :--
> :-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
> :"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
>
> If I remember the right patch, I think my comment on it was
> that the buffers should use non-blocking locks rather then
> blocking locks in order to avoid deadlocks, which it looks like
> you did.
>
> This may still patch into -stable but it probably isn't safe
> to patch into -current. It still looks a little rough but
> the general concept is sound.
There's some definite funkyness with the patch, it just doesn't DTRT.
When I have time I'll try again, perhaps Andrew will give it a shot.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22: 5:39 2000
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Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
>
> In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ...
Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches.
--
Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS)
dcs@newsguy.com
dcs@freebsd.org
capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net
The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the
hunger.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22: 6:46 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:06:33 +0900
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To: "Nicole Harrington." <nicole@unixgirl.com>
Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com,
"freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
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"Nicole Harrington." wrote:
>
> Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in the
> pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X and
> that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4 at
> the moment.
Don't you have /usr/share/examples/cvsup/4.x-stable-supfile?
--
Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS)
dcs@newsguy.com
dcs@freebsd.org
capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net
The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the
hunger.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Apr 4 22:17:15 2000
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Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote:
> Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ...
> Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches.
But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is
"RELENG_4".
If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would have to
change the repository to match your description. I advocate that we change
the description to match the repository.
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From: "Nicole Harrington." <nicole@unixgirl.com>
To: "Daniel C. Sobral" <dcs@newsguy.com>
Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
Cc: "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
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On 05-Apr-00 Daniel C. Sobral wrote:
> "Nicole Harrington." wrote:
>>
>> Heh... I tried to CVSUP to 4.0-STABLE and mistakenly chose 4.0-current in
>> the
>> pkg_setup... I wound up with a very nice 5.0-CURRENT machine... Chose 3.X
>> and
>> that is also what you get... You have to set /etc/cvsup manually to RELENG_4
>> at
>> the moment.
>
> Don't you have /usr/share/examples/cvsup/4.x-stable-supfile?
>
Yup.. however if you use..
" pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz "
It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now
being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions..
Nicole
> --
> Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS)
> dcs@newsguy.com
> dcs@freebsd.org
> capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net
>
> The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the
> hunger.
nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/
webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/
// \\
---------------------------(((---(((-----------------------------------------
-- Powered by Coka-Cola and FreeBSD --
-- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman --
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-- OWNED? MS: Who's Been In Your Computer Today?
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Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
>is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
>problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
>and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
Abusus non tollit usum! Besides, you were criticizing the Unicode
Consortium for this. The Consortium is certainly not representing
Unicode as anything but a character map.
Alex, frankly, we are moving in circles here. Let's drop this thread.
Adam
--
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Or, do you prefer to worship the finger?
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
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While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux
I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely
lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod.
Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of
these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily?
Do /compat/linux/bin programs work ? Would changing the path towards
picking these binaries first be a solution in that case?
--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:12:10 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:06:42 +0700 (NOVST)
From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: fork test
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Hello!
Me and a friend of mine decided to compare FreeBSD and Linux using this
little program (compiled with "gcc -lm")
Two identical machines run FreeBSD 4.0-SNAP 20000214 and Linux Mandrake
7.0 kernel 2.2.13
----------------------------------
#include <math.h>
double counter=0,counter2=32;
double
test()
{
return atan2(counter++,counter2+=counter*50);
}
int
main()
{
int t;
while((t=fork())>0);
if(!t) while(1) test();
else perror("fork");
}
----------------------------------
Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
"uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What
the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
butt?
Please respond directly to me since I am not the member of this list.
Thanks.
Cheers,
/* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
/* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
/* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
/* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
/* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:23:15 2000
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From: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041104290.6811-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that
> local encodings are very limiting in the form they exist now, however
> they, not Unicode, are standards used in real life. If some encapsulation
> format (not as limited as iso 2022 and not as restrictive as MIME
> multipart) will be created to support multiple
> charsets/encodings/languages in one document in labeled chunks, the same
> problem would be solved with minimal changes in existing software and
> minimal document conversion efforts. This solution will be far superior to
> Unicode, and even for "web" use it can be made compatible with charsets
> support in existing browsers.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Read carefully Unicode authors papers.
Unicode is just plain character enumaration, nothing else. All i18n and related
problems must be solved some other means above unicode level. It is pity
that unicode authors succumbered to pressure and started to add features
like directionality, ....
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 0:47: 6 2000
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To: "Nicole Harrington." <nicole@unixgirl.com>
Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" <dcs@newsguy.com>,
"freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
tsikora@powerusersbbs.com
Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:33:51 -0800."
<XFMail.000404223351.nicole@unixgirl.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 00:47:37 -0700
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
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> Yup.. however if you use..
> " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz "
>
> It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now
> being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions..
Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it.
Thanks for the reminder.
The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
so that simply:
pkg_add -r cvsupit
Should now work just fine.
- Jordan
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:14: 7 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:15:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000405014455.A228@whizkidtech.net>
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> >problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
> >and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
>
> Abusus non tollit usum! Besides, you were criticizing the Unicode
> Consortium for this. The Consortium is certainly not representing
> Unicode as anything but a character map.
Actually I criticize IETF, W3C, software companies and
"internationalization" standards that they produce. Unicode consortium has
its own share of troublemaking and arrogance, however replacement of
languages support with Unicode adoption became the IETF policy on
"internationalization".
> Alex, frankly, we are moving in circles here. Let's drop this thread.
Huh?
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:15:26 2000
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In-Reply-To: <21653.954920857@zippy.cdrom.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 01:15:20 -0800 (PDT)
From: "Nicole Harrington." <nicole@unixgirl.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com,
Cc: tsikora@powerusersbbs.com,
"freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>,
"Daniel C. Sobral" <dcs@newsguy.com>
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On 05-Apr-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Yup.. however if you use..
>> " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz "
>>
>> It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now
>> being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions..
>
> Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it.
> Thanks for the reminder.
>
> The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
> state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
> so that simply:
>
> pkg_add -r cvsupit
>
> Should now work just fine.
>
> - Jordan
And there was happiness in the land again... and they all rejoiced ...
YAYYYYY!!
Nicole
nicole@unixgirl.com |\ __ /| (`\ http://www.unixgirl.com/
webmistress@dangermouse.org | o_o |__ ) ) http://www.dangermouse.org/
// \\
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 1:35:59 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:35:43 +0200 (EET)
From: Taavi Talvik <taavi@uninet.ee>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
>
> > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO*
> > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even
> > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing.
> The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's
> based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
> characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much
> flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as
> the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India
together are >2 billion possible users.
best regards,
taavi
-----------------------------------------------------------
Taavi Talvik | Internet: taavi@uninet.ee
Unineti Andmeside AS | phone: +372 6405150
Ravala pst. 10 | fax: +372 6405151
Tallinn 10143, Estonia |
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 2: 1:19 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: fork test
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
> and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
> "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
> Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What
> the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
> butt?
FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.
Kris
----
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-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 2: 3:48 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:03:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: chmod (gnu version) -c switch
In-Reply-To: <200004050659.IAA62867@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Christoph Kukulies wrote:
> While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux
> I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely
> lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod.
>
> Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of
> these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily?
You mean like chmod -v? Of course, neither -c nor -v are portable so care
should be taken in their use.
> Do /compat/linux/bin programs work?
Yes, but there's no need.
> Would changing the path towards
> picking these binaries first be a solution in that case?
I don't recommend that.
Kris
----
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-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Taavi Talvik <taavi@uninet.ee>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Taavi Talvik wrote:
> > the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> > know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
>
> Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India
> together are >2 billion possible users.
They don't use "true multilingual" software -- they have their own
charsets and encodings, and are quite content with them, not having to
care about others' charsets. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese and
Japanese are not waiting for benevolent American programmers to provide
them with "multilingual" software -- they just use local charsets in
existing one, sometimes having to modify it (in rather ad-hoc manner) to
support multibyte where necessary.
It can be called shortsightedness or isolationism, but this is how
things are -- market for true multilingual software is in its infancy.
Poorly designed solutions for multilingual documents handling are
considered to be acceptable because people who are "targeted" by them
neither use them nor really care about multilingual documents, and people
who actually use those things have very limited applications.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 3:24:32 2000
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To: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
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Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
References: <38EA0CF6.29E817B3@home.com> <00040411163701.25816@nomad.dataplex.net> <38EAC99F.642CE420@newsguy.com> <00040500170900.10108@nomad.dataplex.net>
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Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
>
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote:
> > Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> > > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ...
> > Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches.
>
> But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is
> "RELENG_4".
>
> If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would have to
> change the repository to match your description. I advocate that we change
> the description to match the repository.
Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer
to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had
misunderstood you.
--
Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS)
dcs@newsguy.com
dcs@freebsd.org
capo@zurichgnomes.bsdconspiracy.net
The size of the pizza is inversely proportional to the intensity of the
hunger.
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 5 Apr 2000 12:19:03 +0200
Message-ID: <8cf3un$2771$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
References: <20000320194702.11223.qmail@web3101.mail.yahoo.com> <20000329033908.A14122@happy.checkpoint.com> <20000402051559.A52041@happy.checkpoint.com> <8c7soh$179g$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
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I wrote:
> I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
> I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
> -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area
I just got a note from our dear postmaster that freebsd-i18n will
be created within the next couple of days.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 3:56: 6 2000
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From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
References: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041723030.11214-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041729500.11214-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:34:55PM -0700:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
>
> > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance,
> > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of
> > > Russian sentences?
> > >
> > > I don't think so.
> >
> > This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or
> > sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the
> > headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later.
>
> I have to add that I agree that the way, MIME multipart is handled is
> primitive and inconvenient for such applications, however this is not the
> result of any flaw in its design, only of the lack of progress after
> "everything should adopt Unicode" doctrine was declared.
> One may argue
> that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> typesetting.
But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual
text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong
problem. In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian
and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not
*typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the
Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in
"real life" right now -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's
become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of
universal text standard. I don't like this, but currently the Unix
world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
and I think that's a wonderful thing. It's fine for you to talk about
what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task
anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 5:11:45 2000
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From: "Marco van de Voort" <marcov@stack.nl>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:10:35 +0100
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
References: <20000405014455.A228@whizkidtech.net>
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I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get
UNICODE support are we thinking of?
Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl)
<http://www.stack.nl/~marcov/xtdlib.htm>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 5:11:50 2000
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From: "Marco van de Voort" <marcov@stack.nl>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:10:36 +0100
Subject: Re: fork test
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004051404490.28487-100000@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
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> > Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
> > and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
> > "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
> > Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD. What
> > the heck does that suppose to mean?! I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
> > butt?
>
> FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
> unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
> You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.
Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that
2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre<x> kernel.
P.s. this is one of the weirdest benchmarks I have ever seen :-)
Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl)
<http://www.stack.nl/~marcov/xtdlib.htm>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 7:42:47 2000
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Hello i'm writing an article about open source and i need some
feedback about FreeBSD vs Linux. So can you hackers help me whita
that. Whats so good in FreeBSD and whats bad in Linux...
Joe Fisher
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 8:21:37 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:21:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Bacarella <mbac@nyct.net>
To: Marco van de Voort <marcov@stack.nl>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: fork test
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> > FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
> > unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
> > You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.
>
> Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that
> 2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre<x> kernel.
Vanilla Linux 2.2.x supports 512 processes, defined by NR_TASKS. 4090
is a hardware limit that can't be passed in 2.2.x
Linux 2.4.x will support an unlimited number of processes up to the point
of 256^sizeof(pid_t). Most people will probably run out of RAM before they
hit this limit.
Poster should screw benchmarks out of fear of holy war. :)
-MB
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 10: 9:44 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:10:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000405125549.05360@techunix.technion.ac.il>
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
> > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> > typesetting.
>
> But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual
> text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong
> problem.
It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.
> In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian
> and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not
> *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the
> Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in
> "real life" right now
This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
merit.
> -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's
> become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of
> universal text standard.
Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some
pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.
> I don't like this, but currently the Unix
> world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
> and I think that's a wonderful thing.
UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all. And
this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be superior to
pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to provide advantages
over it, not absorb its weaknesses. We need to provide multilingual
functionality, not just multilingual display -- if that will be done,
half-assed languages support in Windows/Word will look like a sad joke.
> It's fine for you to talk about
> what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
> standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
> but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
> it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task
> anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.
What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we
ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should
be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect
it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to
start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will
become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design
ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a
thing that no one seems to understand or care about.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 11:26:15 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Eugene M. Kim" <ab@astralblue.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
| On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
|
| > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
| > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
| > > typesetting.
| >
| > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual
| > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong
| > problem.
|
| It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
| does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
| multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
| text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.
Yet again, Unicode is _not_ a multilingual solution; it's rather an aid.
There are literally tons of problems like case folding, hyphenation (as
you mentioned), Chinese simplified letter support, directionality,
ligature formation and so on, which must be flattened out by a true
multilingual solution. The current Unicode try to address these
problems but it doesn't claim it solves or will solve them. (Read the
Unicode spec carefully, please, and you will see what I mean.)
And this fact is actually a consensus which can be seen on any serious
i18n discussion group.
|
| > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian
| > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not
| > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the
| > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in
| > "real life" right now
|
| This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
| Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
| poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
| merit.
We are speaking about the `real world' here -- the world as it is now.
In other words, it's an installation base that we must consider in any
effort of envisioning a new i18n scheme.
|
| > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's
| > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of
| > universal text standard.
|
| Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some
| pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
| mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.
|
| > I don't like this, but currently the Unix
| > world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
| > and I think that's a wonderful thing.
|
| UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all.
And that's exactly one of the things that we want as a part of
multilingual solution.
| And this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be
| superior to pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to
| provide advantages over it, not absorb its weaknesses. We need to
| provide multilingual functionality, not just multilingual display --
| if that will be done, half-assed languages support in Windows/Word
| will look like a sad joke.
Unicode doesn't necessarily mean a bad multilingual functionality.
What makes a good m17n scheme is _how we use_ tools like Unicode (as a
multilingual display tool). True, there's a lot of inappropriate m17n
approaches using Unicode (most of which directly project Unicode to be
the m17n scheme, as you pointed out), but so far I didn't see any factor
in Unicode itself that it will make it hard to envision a good m17n
scheme.
|
| > It's fine for you to talk about
| > what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
| > standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
| > but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
| > it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task
| > anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.
|
| What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we
| ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should
| be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect
| it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to
| start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will
| become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design
| ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a
| thing that no one seems to understand or care about.
If you don't feel right about the current approach by IETF, and you've
got enough confidence how it should be, then I strongly suggest you
start the work right away. I think there are tons of programmers and
other experts, my being one of course, who will gladly give some input
towards this type of effort. It's more of a matter of where to look for
those; for example, there are couple of m17n/i18n WGs in IETF where a
lot of people are willing to throw in their voice.
Regards,
Eugene
--
Eugene M. Kim <ab@astralblue.com>
"Is your music unpopular? Make it popular; make music
which people like, or make people who like your music."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 12: 5:57 2000
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References:
<Pine.LNX.4.20.0004050950210.11214-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:00:52 -0400
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 10:10 AM -0700 4/5/00, Alex Belits wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>
> > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> > > typesetting.
> >
> > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual
> > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong
> > problem.
>
> It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
>does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
>multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
>text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.
I think what you need to do is present the alternative to unicode
that you want people to use. Not just complaints about unicode,
although I do understand some of the points you're raising, but an
actual implementation or something considerably more concrete than
just dissing unicode or some of the more fanatical backers of unicode.
> > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian
> > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not
> > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the
> > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in
> > "real life" right now
>
> This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
>Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
>poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
>merit
>
> > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's
> > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of
> > universal text standard.
>
> Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some
>pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
>mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.
All of which is utterly irrelevant to reality. How we (the computer
industry) are in the mess we are in belongs in some philosophy mailing
list. The reality is that real-world users ARE IN FACT using MS-Word
because that lets them do something they want to do. If we do not
let them do those same things, then we can't very well complain that
they stick to MS-Word while we sit in some ivory tower and bitch and
moan about "how good it should be". Either we MAKE IT as good as it
should be, or we at least shut up and provide people SOME way to do
what they want to do.
I think the recent comments have clarified things a bit, in that it
sounds like you're not complaining about unicode changes per se. You
just seem to want to make sure that any unicode changes also leave
the door open to more extensive changes which you feel are needed
before the job is really done right. That much more understandable
to me. On the other hand, it still seems to me that people interested
in unicode changes for FreeBSD should just go ahead and start working
on them, and hope that anyone with a wider-scope will provide input
to those changes.
However, I do not think the unicode changes should wait until after
some other super-wonderful solution is ironed out. I emphatically
deny the view that supporting unicode now will dictate anything about
what we do in the future, any more than the past should dictate that
we never get unicode support working.
I don't see any point in further debate on whether there should be
unicode support, I think anyone interested in doing ANY work should
be encouraged to do so, and anyone else interested in the issues can
contribute their ideas on implementation issues. Note that I am not
disagreeing with your views on what is necessary for a long-term
solution, I just think that working on a mid-term solution is better
than doing nothing at all in the area.
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 12:27: 6 2000
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From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
To: dcs@newsguy.com
Subject: Re: 4.0-STABLE?
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:26:54 -0500
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On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel Sobral wrote:
> > But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is
> > "RELENG_4".
> >
> > If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would
> > have to change the repository to match your description. I advocate that
> > we change the description to match the repository.
>
> Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer
> to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had
> misunderstood you.
Naturally, I would not use the "RELENG_" but refer to them as FreeBSD-3
or some other isomorphic usr-friendly label.
I would get rid of "-STABLE" part of elsewhere because it is redundant.
However, I would not discard "STABLE" entirely. I would just make an
alias or symbolic link to the most recent release that deserves that
"blessing".
BTW, I think it was a mistake to attach the "blessing" so soon after the
branch was created. But that is another discussion.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14: 2:18 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:02:04 -0400
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004032038040.7178-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net>
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You, G. Adam Stanislav, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:59:55PM -0500:
> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
> >console is a Good Thing(TM).
>
> I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations.
> The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). If
> you change it for one character, you change it for everything on the
> console. And this was designed by *International* Business Machines! :)
a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
supported by FreeBSD, but can be.
b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes
used as if they were text modes -- the characters gets drawn very
quickly by the VGA renderer code using their representation in
the font file (it is my understanding, though I might be wrong,
that Linux doesn't support these). In these modes, you could draw
arbitrarily many different glyphs at the same time, once Unicode support
is added.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:30:51 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:30:38 -0400
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Marco van de Voort <marcov@stack.nl>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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You, Marco van de Voort, were spotted writing this on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100:
>
>
> I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get
> UNICODE support are we thinking of?
I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the
vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes:
a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather
than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should
greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications
that desire so obtain Unicode input directly;
b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent
chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts,
get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow
creation of unified font files describing many languages at once.
c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in
text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover,
in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with
fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed
at once.
d) userland applications wouldn't feel a thing, and will continue
to receive pure 8-bit stream translated from/to Unicode by syscons by
way of a user-supplied encoding table. UTF-8 may play a role of
one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way
to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired.
I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of
the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a
member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do
a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
they will be reviewed and committed.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:11 2000
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 5 Apr 2000 22:49:46 +0200
Message-ID: <8cg8ta$2qvu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004032038040.7178-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net>
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G. Adam Stanislav <adam@whizkidtech.net> wrote:
> >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
> >console is a Good Thing(TM).
>
> I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations.
> The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding).
Actually, if you can spare an attribute bit you can handle 512
characters in text mode on a plain VGA card. pcvt(4) uses this to
keep all of CP437, ISO Latin 1, various DEC character sets, and a
range of definable characters available.
> I see the main way of supporting Unicode in providing libraries that
> programs can use to convert between Unicode and local display.
... and to handle UTF-8. Yes.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:34 2000
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 5 Apr 2000 23:08:25 +0200
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Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> wrote:
> > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be
> > the most inclusive one in existence.
>
> It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met.
You are arguing against a strawman.
Unicode takes care of character repertoire, code points, and (with
UTF-*) encoding. In no way does it touch on language labeling.
> and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
A claim that would be obviously absurd.
However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new
implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be
lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:43:41 2000
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From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Date: 5 Apr 2000 23:38:32 +0200
Message-ID: <8cgboo$2scu$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000404100544.00882db0@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004041104290.6811-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> wrote:
> People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient,
Linguists are interested in languages, not in computer character
set issues. They are just users who expect their *applications* to
work. They don't know and don't want to know about arcane things
such as the current mess of 8-bit character sets and MIME. (Well,
not being a linguist myself that's certainly the impression I get
from sci.lang.)
Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since
it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't
been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding
into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all.
> and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets.
I'm not a linguist and I want Unicode. By yesterday.
> However I oppose:
>
> 1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best
> possible way to handle multilingual documents.
>
> 2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense
> of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some
> unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine
> if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not.
Wonderful.
You are pretty much in agreement with Unicode supporters all over
the world.
You are arguing against a non-existent opponent. It's boring.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:55: 9 2000
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From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000405165243.C245@whizkidtech.net>
References: <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004032038040.7178-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net> <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net>
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:04PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
>supported by FreeBSD, but can be.
>
>b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes
>used as if they were text modes
Good points. Somehow I was not thinking about that.
Cheers,
Adam
--
Apply standard disk lamer
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 14:59:27 2000
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From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: Marco van de Voort <marcov@stack.nl>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000405165657.D245@whizkidtech.net>
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:30:38PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of
>the issues involved, etc.
Yes, you clearly do. :)
> However I am neither a committer nor a
>member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
>my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do
>a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
>is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
>Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
>welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
>and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
>they will be reviewed and committed.
I'd say: Go for it. The core never decides on ideas, as far as I know.
They only decide on code after it is written. You may want to talk to
Soren since he has done most of the console work. It is better if
your effort is coordinated with his.
Cheers,
Adam
--
"Let's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may diet"
-- Seen on a dining room wall...
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:17:56 2000
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Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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> People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient,
What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"?
Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our
software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded). Actually, of all people, the "linguists"
seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4).
-jason
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:29:22 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Jason <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Jason wrote:
> > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> > sufficient,
>
> What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"?
> Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our
> software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded). Actually, of all people, the "linguists"
> seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4).
Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:41:52 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:50:27 -0400
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"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:
> The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
> state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
> so that simply:
By the way, a stupid question: I've received a 4-CDROM
package today, saying 4.0-March 2000. The line on the
shipping list says that it's -current. But is not
-current 5.0 now, and 4 CDROMs ? So I wonder, is it
really -current or -stable ?
-SB
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:44:59 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:45:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <8cga09$2rja$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>
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On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> > > the most inclusive one in existence.
> >
> > It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> > problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
>
> Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met.
> You are arguing against a strawman.
I would be happy if it was a nonexistent point of view, however it
happens to be exactly what I hear from people who are trying
to "standardize on UTF-8" FTP, HTML, NNTP and even DNS. Their
arguments? "who needs any other charsets or languages? just force everyone
to replace them with UTF-8, put UTF-8 handling into all software and all
languages-related problems will be solved". One of shining examples of
this is someone Martin Duerst, however he is not alone there.
[skipped]
>
> A claim that would be obviously absurd.
> However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new
> implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be
> lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off.
iso 2022 is a dinosaur -- it's inflexible. However labeling of charsets
and languages in general is definitely necessary for any decent
languages-handling functionality. Even if the charset is Unicode,
languages still have to be labeled somewhere to make any use of the text
in processing, and if labeling is unavoidable, multiple-charsets model is
in no way inferior to Unicode, plus it allows easy addition of charsets
and variants of them without Unicode consortium approval as long as
something handles the charset and language names.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 15:50:19 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since
> it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't
> been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding
> into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all.
I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
similarities.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 16:24:39 2000
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From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: Jason <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>,
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:30:22PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
>extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
>use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
mop, towel, etc.
You are fighting wind mills, my friend.
Cheers,
Adam
--
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From: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>,
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Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
>"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
>achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
>similarities.
Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that
is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has
personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making
a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré.
To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost
two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright
offensive.
Adam
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 17: 7:34 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> > I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
> >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
> >achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
> >similarities.
>
> Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that
> is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has
> personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making
> a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré.
I refer only to my idea of the possible validity of the statement, I
have no intention to actually compare Unicode Consortium and Communist
Party.
> To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost
> two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright
> offensive.
This is not a place to discuss my feelings toward political doctrines,
however I don't see why hatred toward communists is supposed to be
somehow "sacred". I always considered that people have unlienable right to
poke fun at all kinds of troubles that they faced, and I think that with
23 years spent in Russia I qualify for that pretty well.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 17:19:57 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:21:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>
Cc: Jason <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000405182234.A226@whizkidtech.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004051710000.15489-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
> >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
> >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
>
> Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
> Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
> a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
> towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
> of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
> application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
> mop, towel, etc.
This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I
understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet
into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for
Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even
though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the
representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world
charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages
in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the
"charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can
eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and
without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.
> You are fighting wind mills, my friend.
[ witty comment about Klingons and windmills is left as an exercise to
the reader ;-) ]
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 18: 3:32 2000
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To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
Jason <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:21:07 MST."
<Pine.LNX.4.20.0004051710000.15489-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:01:18 +1000
From: Patryk Zadarnowski <patrykz@ilion.eu.org>
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> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
>
> > > Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
> > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
> > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
> >
> > Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
> > Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
> > a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
> > towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
> > of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
> > application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
> > mop, towel, etc.
>
> This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I
> understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet
> into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for
> Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even
> though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the
> representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world
> charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages
> in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the
> "charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can
> eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and
> without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.
Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages.
If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd
know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if
the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't
know what does.
Pat.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales
<pat@ia64.org> School of Computer Science and Engineering
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 19:53:38 2000
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To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:02:04 EDT."
<20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net>
References: <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> <3.0.6.32.20000403221617.008e2500@mail85.pair.com> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004032038040.7178-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> <20000404170856.A524@hades.hell.gr> <20000404195955.B261@whizkidtech.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 20:21:26 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <20000405170204.A99874@sasami.jurai.net> Anatoly Vorobey writes:
: a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
: supported by FreeBSD, but can be.
Not supported by sc, but I believe the pcvt does support it.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 20: 1:40 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 20:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Patryk Zadarnowski <patrykz@ilion.eu.org>
Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>,
Jason <nordwick@scam.xcf.berkeley.edu>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <200004060101.LAA05805@mycenae.ilion.eu.org>
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote:
> > without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.
>
> Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages.
> If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd
> know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if
> the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't
> know what does.
Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
actually used in Russia?
ISO 8859-5.
And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?
koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
"intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more
complex than some people think.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 20: 7:14 2000
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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:07:57 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <garycor@home.com>
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
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I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine
for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module. In 4.0
the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration
pointer. My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the
base addresses for those ranges.
So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer
for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ?
Thanks,
Gary
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 22:18:30 2000
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From: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000406091824.A1625@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
> actually used in Russia?
>
> ISO 8859-5.
>
> And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
> for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?
>
> koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
> "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more
> complex than some people think.
Wrong, you are comparing apples and oranges again --
cyrillic (8859-5) encoding with russian (koi8-r) one.
Never say never -- if you do not know about 8859-5
usage is does not mean "not used by everyone".
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 22:54:55 2000
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To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <garycor@home.com>
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:07:57 EDT."
<38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com>
References: <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 23:54:02 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <38EBFF8D.56BB4841@home.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes:
: I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine
: for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module. In 4.0
: the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration
: pointer. My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the
: base addresses for those ranges.
:
: So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer
: for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ?
rid = 0x10;
res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x14;
res2 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x18;
res3 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x1c;
res4 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x20;
res5 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x24;
res6 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is
I/O mapped rather than memory mapped.
In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space
where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only
need apply.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Apr 5 23:15:31 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 08:17:26 +0000
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000406081726.A22343@happy.checkpoint.com>
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
>
> Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
> actually used in Russia?
>
> ISO 8859-5.
It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000
(those of them not sophisticated enough to select their own outgoing
encoding).
> And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
> for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?
Cyrillic!=Russian.
> koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
This is untrue. cp1251 is used in almost all Russian web pages, and
koi8-r is the minority (for no good reason, of course, primarily because
too many people never learned to set the right charset in the outgoing
HTTP headers).
> "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more
> complex than some people think.
And with all its attractive properties, it's still missing the letter
"yat'" that I need. It's there in Unicode, of course (and in 8859-5).
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 0:49:18 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:49:02 +0200
From: Holm Tiffe <holm@freibergnet.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ?
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Hi,
since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface
from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE.
It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows:
lnc0: <PCNet/PCI Ethernet adapter> port 0x10e0-0x10ff \
mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0
lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims
... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working.
# ifconfig lnc0
ifconfig: interface lnc0 does not exist
What could I do to get this working ?
Here comes the output from a verbose boot:
Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project.
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 4.0-20000404-STABLE #5: Thu Apr 6 07:39:18 CEST 2000
root@:/usr/src/sys/compile/SCHLEPPI2
Calibrating clock(s) ... TSC clock: 501130954 Hz, i8254 clock: 1193169 Hz
CLK_USE_I8254_CALIBRATION not specified - using default frequency
Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz
CLK_USE_TSC_CALIBRATION not specified - using old calibration method
CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon (501.14-MHz 686-class CPU)
Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x681 Stepping = 1
Features=0x383f9ff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,XMM>
real memory = 134152192 (131008K bytes)
Physical memory chunk(s):
0x00001000 - 0x0009efff, 647168 bytes (158 pages)
0x0030c000 - 0x07fe7fff, 130924544 bytes (31964 pages)
avail memory = 127500288 (124512K bytes)
bios32: Found BIOS32 Service Directory header at 0xc00f6a10
bios32: Entry = 0xfd8a0 (c00fd8a0) Rev = 0 Len = 1
pcibios: PCI BIOS entry at 0x11e
pnpbios: Found PnP BIOS data at 0xc00f6a40
pnpbios: Entry = f0000:8e05 Rev = 1.0
Other BIOS signatures found:
ACPI: 000f69d0
Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled
md0: Malloc disk
Creating DISK md0
pci_open(1): mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x80003904
pci_open(1a): mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000)
pci_cfgcheck: device 0 [class=060000] [hdr=00] is there (id=71908086)
npx0: <math processor> on motherboard
npx0: INT 16 interface
apm0: <APM BIOS> on motherboard
apm: found APM BIOS v1.2, connected at v1.2
pci_open(1): mode 1 addr port (0x0cf8) is 0x00000000
pci_open(1a): mode1res=0x80000000 (0x80000000)
pci_cfgcheck: device 0 [class=060000] [hdr=00] is there (id=71908086)
pcib0: <Intel 82443BX (440 BX) host to PCI bridge> on motherboard
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7190, revid=0x03
class=06-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
map[10]: type 1, range 32, base f8000000, size 26
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7191, revid=0x03
class=06-04-00, hdrtype=0x01, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=1 secondarybus=1
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7110, revid=0x02
class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=1
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7111, revid=0x01
class=01-01-80, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
map[20]: type 1, range 32, base 00001050, size 4
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7112, revid=0x01
class=0c-03-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
intpin=d, irq=11
map[20]: type 1, range 32, base 00001060, size 5
found-> vendor=0x8086, dev=0x7113, revid=0x03
class=06-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
map[90]: type 1, range 32, base 00001040, size 4
found-> vendor=0x1073, dev=0x0010, revid=0x02
class=04-01-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
intpin=a, irq=5
map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fc000000, size 15
map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 00001080, size 6
map[18]: type 1, range 32, base 00001800, size 2
found-> vendor=0x1022, dev=0x2000, revid=0x43
class=02-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
intpin=a, irq=9
map[10]: type 1, range 32, base 000010e0, size 5
map[14]: type 1, range 32, base fc008000, size 5
found-> vendor=0x1180, dev=0x0475, revid=0x80
class=06-07-00, hdrtype=0x02, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
intpin=a, irq=255
found-> vendor=0x11c1, dev=0x0420, revid=0x01
class=07-80-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
intpin=a, irq=11
map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fc008400, size 8
map[14]: type 3, range 32, base 00001808, size 3
map[18]: type 1, range 32, base 00001400, size 8
pci0: <PCI bus> on pcib0
pcib1: <Intel 82443BX (440 BX) PCI-PCI (AGP) bridge> at device 1.0 on pci0
found-> vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4c42, revid=0xdc
class=03-00-00, hdrtype=0x00, mfdev=0
subordinatebus=0 secondarybus=0
map[10]: type 1, range 32, base fd000000, size 24
map[14]: type 1, range 32, base 00002000, size 8
map[18]: type 1, range 32, base fc100000, size 12
pci1: <PCI bus> on pcib1
pci1: <ATI model 4c42 graphics accelerator> (vendor=0x1002, dev=0x4c42) at 0.0
isab0: <Intel 82371AB PCI to ISA bridge> at device 7.0 on pci0
isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0
atapci0: <Intel PIIX4 ATA33 controller> port 0x1050-0x105f at device 7.1 on pci0
ata0: iobase=0x01f0 altiobase=0x03f6 bmaddr=0x1050
ata0: mask=03 status0=50 status1=00
ata0: mask=03 status0=50 status1=00
ata0: devices = 0x1
ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0
ata1: iobase=0x0170 altiobase=0x0376 bmaddr=0x1058
ata1: mask=03 status0=00 status1=00
ata1: mask=03 status0=00 status1=00
ata1: devices = 0x4
ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0
uhci0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> port 0x1060-0x107f irq 11 at device 7.2 on pci0
usb0: <Intel 82371AB/EB (PIIX4) USB controller> on uhci0
usb0: USB revision 1.0
uhub0: Intel UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1
uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered
chip1: <Intel 82371AB Power management controller> port 0x1040-0x104f at device 7.3 on pci0
pci0: <unknown card> (vendor=0x1073, dev=0x0010) at 9.0 irq 5
lnc0: <PCNet/PCI Ethernet adapter> port 0x10e0-0x10ff mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0
lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims
pcic-pci0: <Ricoh RL5C475 PCI-CardBus Bridge> at device 12.0 on pci0
PCI Config space:
00: 04751180 02100007 06070080 00020000
10: 00000000 020000dc 00000000 00000000
20: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
30: 00000000 00000000 00000000 008001ff
40: 02801558 000003e1 00000000 00000000
50: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
60: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
70: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
80: 00a00000 00000000 04630463 00000000
90: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
Cardbus Socket registers:
00: f000ff53: f000ff53: f000e2c3: f000ff53:
10: f000ff53: f000ff54: f0009379: f000ff53:
ExCa registers:
00: 13 88 f5 5a 72 d0 80 e1 3f 74 c8 fa 66 8b 46 08
10: 52 66 0f b6 d9 66 31 d2 66 f7 f3 88 eb 88 d5 43
20: 30 d2 66 f7 f3 88 d7 5a 66 3d ff 03 00 00 fb 77
30: a2 86 c4 c0 c8 02 08 e8 40 91 88 fe 28 e0 8a 66
pci0: <unknown card> (vendor=0x11c1, dev=0x0420) at 13.0 irq 11
Trying Read_Port at 203
Trying Read_Port at 243
Trying Read_Port at 283
Trying Read_Port at 2c3
Trying Read_Port at 303
Trying Read_Port at 343
Trying Read_Port at 383
Trying Read_Port at 3c3
devclass_alloc_unit: ata0 already exists, using next available unit number
devclass_alloc_unit: ata1 already exists, using next available unit number
isa_probe_children: disabling PnP devices
isa_probe_children: probing non-PnP devices
fdc0: <NEC 72065B or clone> at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0
fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold
fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0
atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0
atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0
atkbd: the current kbd controller command byte 0047
atkbd: keyboard ID 0x41ab (2)
kbdc: RESET_KBD return code:00fa
kbdc: RESET_KBD status:00aa
kbd0: atkbd0, AT 101/102 (2), config:0x0, flags:0x3d0000
psm0: current command byte:0047
kbdc: TEST_AUX_PORT status:0000
kbdc: RESET_AUX return code:00fa
kbdc: RESET_AUX status:00aa
kbdc: RESET_AUX ID:0000
psm: status 00 02 64
psm: status 00 00 64
psm: status 00 03 64
psm: status 00 03 64
psm: data 08 00 00
psm: status 53 02 14
psm: data 08 00 00
psm: status 00 02 64
psm0: <PS/2 Mouse> irq 12 on atkbdc0
psm0: model GlidePoint, device ID 0-00, 2 buttons
psm0: config:00000000, flags:00000000, packet size:3
psm0: syncmask:c0, syncbits:00
vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0
fb0: vga0, vga, type:VGA (5), flags:0x7007f
fb0: port:0x3c0-0x3df, crtc:0x3d4, mem:0xa0000 0x20000
fb0: init mode:24, bios mode:3, current mode:24
fb0: window:0xc00b8000 size:32k gran:32k, buf:0 size:32k
vga0: vga: WARNING: video mode switching is not fully supported on this adapter
VGA parameters upon power-up
50 18 10 00 00 00 03 00 02 e7 a3 4f 67 8f 6a 1b
24 b3 00 6f 0d 0e 00 00 02 d0 49 8f 8f 28 1f 47
6d a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c
3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff
VGA parameters in BIOS for mode 24
50 18 10 00 10 00 03 00 02 67 5f 4f 50 82 55 81
bf 1f 00 4f 0d 0e 00 00 00 00 9c 8e 8f 28 1f 96
b9 a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c
3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff
EGA/VGA parameters to be used for mode 24
50 18 10 00 00 00 03 00 02 e7 a3 4f 67 8f 6a 1b
24 b3 00 6f 0d 0e 00 00 02 d0 49 8f 8f 28 1f 47
6d a3 ff 00 01 02 03 04 05 14 07 38 39 3a 3b 3c
3d 3e 3f 0c 00 0f 08 00 00 00 00 00 10 0e 00 ff
sc0: <System console> on isa0
sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x200>
sc0: fb0, kbd0, terminal emulator: sc (syscons terminal)
pcic0 at port 0x3e0 iomem 0xd0000 irq 10 on isa0
pcic ident regs: 0x83 0xff 0xff 0xff
pcic0: controller 0 (Intel 82365SL Revision 1) has socket A only
pccard0: <PC Card bus -- newconfig version> on pcic0
sio0: irq maps: 0x41 0x51 0x41 0x41
sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0
sio0: type 16550A
sio1: irq maps: 0x41 0x49 0x41 0x41
sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0
sio1: type 16550A
ppc0: parallel port found at 0x378
ppc0: EPP SPP
ppc0: <Parallel port> at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 flags 0x40 on isa0
ppc0: Generic chipset (EPP/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode
ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0
lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0
lpt0: Interrupt-driven port
plip0: <PLIP network interface> on ppbus0
bpf: lp0 attached
pcic1 at port 0x3e0-0x3e1 iomem 0xd0000-0xd0fff irq 10 on isa0
device_probe_and_attach: pcic1 attach returned 12
isa_probe_children: probing PnP devices
BIOS Geometries:
0:03fefe3f 0..1022=1023 cylinders, 0..254=255 heads, 1..63=63 sectors
0 accounted for
Device configuration finished.
bpf: sl0 attached
bpf: ppp0 attached
new masks: bio 4008c840, tty 4003109a, net 4007149a
bpf: lo0 attached
ata0-master: success setting up UDMA2 mode on PIIX4 chip
ad0: <TOSHIBA MK1214GAP/N0.11 A> ATA-4 disk at ata0 as master
ad0: 11513MB (23579136 sectors), 23392 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S
ad0: 16 secs/int, 1 depth queue, UDMA33
ad0: piomode=4 dmamode=2 udmamode=4 cblid=1
Creating DISK ad0
Creating DISK wd0
ata1-master: piomode=4 dmamode=2 udmamode=2 dmaflag=1
ata1-master: success setting up UDMA2 mode on PIIX4 chip
acd0: <TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-7002B/1005> CDROM drive at ata1 as master
acd0: read 4134KB/s (4134KB/s), 128KB buffer, UDMA33
acd0: Reads: CD-R, CD-RW, CD-DA stream
acd0: Audio: play, 16 volume levels
acd0: Mechanism: ejectable tray
acd0: Medium: CD-ROM 80mm data disc loaded, unlocked
Mounting root from ufs:ad0s1a
ad0s1: type 0xa5, start 63, end = 11775644, size 11775582 : OK
start_init: trying /sbin/init
Linux-ELF exec handler installed
splash: image decoder found: daemon_saver
and here comes the kernel config file
#
# SCHLEPPI Newcard based
machine i386
cpu I586_CPU
cpu I686_CPU
ident SCHLEPPI2
maxusers 32
#makeoptions DEBUG=-g #Build kernel with gdb(1) debug symbols
options INET #InterNETworking
options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem
options FFS_ROOT #FFS usable as root device [keep this!]
options MFS #Memory Filesystem
options MD_ROOT #MD is a potential root device
options NFS #Network Filesystem
options NFS_ROOT #NFS usable as root device, NFS required
options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem
options CD9660 #ISO 9660 Filesystem
options CD9660_ROOT #CD-ROM usable as root, CD9660 required
options PROCFS #Process filesystem
options COMPAT_43 #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!]
options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console
options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor
options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor
options KTRACE #ktrace(1) support
options SYSVSHM #SYSV-style shared memory
options SYSVMSG #SYSV-style message queues
options SYSVSEM #SYSV-style semaphores
options COMPAT_OLDPCI
device isa
device pci
device pccard
#device cardbus
# Floppy drives
device fdc0 at isa? port IO_FD1 irq 6 drq 2
device fd0 at fdc0 drive 0
#device fd1 at fdc0 drive 1
# ATA and ATAPI devices
device ata0 at isa? port IO_WD1 irq 14
device ata1 at isa? port IO_WD2 irq 15
device ata
device atadisk # ATA disk drives
device atapicd # ATAPI CDROM drives
device atapifd # ATAPI floppy drives
device atapist # ATAPI tape drives
options ATA_STATIC_ID #Static device numbering
options ATA_ENABLE_ATAPI_DMA #Enable DMA on ATAPI devices
# atkbdc0 controls both the keyboard and the PS/2 mouse
device atkbdc0 at isa? port IO_KBD
device atkbd0 at atkbdc? irq 1
device psm0 at atkbdc? irq 12
device vga0 at isa? port ?
# splash screen/screen saver
pseudo-device splash
# syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console
device sc0 at isa?
# Enable this and PCVT_FREEBSD for pcvt vt220 compatible console driver
#device vt0 at isa?
#options XSERVER # support for X server on a vt console
#options FAT_CURSOR # start with block cursor
# If you have a ThinkPAD, uncomment this along with the rest of the PCVT lines
#options PCVT_SCANSET=2 # IBM keyboards are non-std
# Floating point support - do not disable.
device npx0 at nexus? port IO_NPX irq 13
# Power management support (see LINT for more options)
device apm0 at nexus? flags 0x20 # Advanced Power Management
# PCCARD (PCMCIA) support
device pcic0 at isa? port 0x3e0 irq 10 iomem 0xd0000
device pccbb
# Serial (COM) ports
device sio0 at isa? port IO_COM1 flags 0x10 irq 4
device sio1 at isa? port IO_COM2 irq 3
# Parallel port
device ppc0 at isa? port? flags 0x40 irq 7
device ppbus # Parallel port bus (required)
device lpt # Printer
device plip # TCP/IP over parallel
device ppi # Parallel port interface device
#device vpo # Requires scbus and da0
# ISA Ethernet NICs.
# The probe order of these is presently determined by i386/isa/isa_compat.c.
#device ie0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 10 iomem 0xd0000
#device fe0 at isa? port 0x300 irq ?
#device le0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 5 iomem 0xd0000
#device lnc0 at isa? port 0x1a0a irq 9 drq 0
#device cs0 at isa? port 0x300 irq ?
#device sn0 at isa? port 0x300 irq 10
# requires PCCARD (PCMCIA) support to be activated
# XXX BROKEN
#device xe0 at isa? port? irq ?
device lnc0
# Pseudo devices - the number indicates how many units to allocated.
pseudo-device loop # Network loopback
pseudo-device ether # Ethernet support
pseudo-device sl 1 # Kernel SLIP
pseudo-device ppp 1 # Kernel PPP
pseudo-device tun # Packet tunnel.
pseudo-device pty # Pseudo-ttys (telnet etc)
pseudo-device md # Memory "disks"
# The `bpf' pseudo-device enables the Berkeley Packet Filter.
# Be aware of the administrative consequences of enabling this!
pseudo-device bpf 4 #Berkeley packet filter
pseudo-device vn 4
# USB support
device uhci # UHCI PCI->USB interface
device ohci # OHCI PCI->USB interface
device usb # USB Bus (required)
device ugen # Generic
device uhid # "Human Interface Devices"
device ukbd # Keyboard
device ulpt # Printer
#device umass # Disks/Mass storage - Requires scbus and da0
device ums # Mouse
#device aue # ADMtek USB ethernet
#device cue # CATC USB ethernet
#device kue # Kawasaki LSI USB ethernet
options DDB
Holm
--
FreibergNet Systemhaus GbR Holm Tiffe * Administration, Development
Systemhaus für Daten- und Netzwerktechnik phone +49 3731 781279
Unternehmensgruppe Liebscher & Partner fax +49 3731 781377
D-09599 Freiberg * Am St. Niclas Schacht 13 http://www.freibergnet.de/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 1: 2:59 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:04:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Nikolai Saoukh <nms@otdel-1.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000406091824.A1625@Draculina.otdel-1.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004060055480.16140-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Nikolai Saoukh wrote:
> > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
> > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more
> > complex than some people think.
>
> Wrong, you are comparing apples and oranges again --
> cyrillic (8859-5) encoding with russian (koi8-r) one.
> Never say never -- if you do not know about 8859-5
> usage is does not mean "not used by everyone".
I am absolutely certain that my knowledge of the cyrillic encodings
usage and history that I have got in fourteen years of dealing with them
is complete.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 1:31:36 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 01:32:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <20000406081726.A22343@happy.checkpoint.com>
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
> > Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
> > actually used in Russia?
> >
> > ISO 8859-5.
>
> It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000
> (those of them not sophisticated enough to select their own outgoing
> encoding).
Unless Microsoft turned around its encodings policy one more time last
year, Outlook by default uses Windows CP-1251 for cyrillic.
>
> > And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
> > for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?
>
> Cyrillic!=Russian.
The same applies to the use of encodings for Ukrainian language except
that koi8-u (that us a superset of koi8-r) is used instead. Other
languages either aren't used widely enough to provide any statistics (such
as Belorussian), or use one of existing charsets other than iso8859-5.
> > koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
>
> This is untrue. cp1251 is used in almost all Russian web pages, and
> koi8-r is the minority (for no good reason, of course, primarily because
> too many people never learned to set the right charset in the outgoing
> HTTP headers).
While the number of russian pages in CP-1251 is increasing, I probably
look at the "wrong" web sites because absolute majority of what I have
seen either uses koi8-r, or offers multiple encodings, including koi8-r
and CP-1251 but never iso 8859-5.
> > "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> > characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> > terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> > trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more
> > complex than some people think.
>
> And with all its attractive properties, it's still missing the letter
> "yat'" that I need. It's there in Unicode, of course (and in 8859-5).
With multiple-charsets support it's still can be available, however this
is not the point. The reality is that this letter is completely excluded
from any real-life use for more than 70 years. That is, everything
published in modern Russian, even if it is a re-published work that
originally used pre-reform Russian language, is printed in post-reform
version of the language, works of Pushkin and Tolstoy included. The only
cases where "yat'" is used are ones where exact reproduction of works in
documents is necessary, and generally are treated by Russians as texts in
languages that is not recognized as Russian anymore (as well as even
earlier version of Russian that had significantly different alphabet and
can't be read by modern Russians without archaic-language
training). In other words, you are talking about completely different
language.
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 2:20: 2 2000
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Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:08:33 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
To: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org
Subject: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
--
-- David (obrien@NUXI.com)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 2:41:40 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:57:25 +0100
From: Nik Clayton <nik@freebsd.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Task for -doc newbie / XML'ing LINT. . .
Message-ID: <20000406095725.D62492@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>
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Hi,
[ sent to -doc, where it's on topic.
Sent to -stable, where there's been much discussion of the docs
recently. If anyone's got any energy left from that they could usefully
expend it on this.
Sent to -hackers, where the last chunk about XML is on topic, and will
probably get me lynched. . .
Follow-ups *not* set, as depending on which bits you reply to might
make it more appropriate for one list or another. ]
If anyone's looking for a relatively simple, but quite involving task. . .
Update section 2.3 of the Handbook, "Supported Hardware". In particular,
for each piece of hardware I'd like to know
* The name of the hardware (which we already have, pretty much)
* The category ("Disk Controller", "NIC", "USB", "ISDN", "Serial",
"Mice", "Scanners", Other. . .)
* The name of the driver/kernel config entry it's associated with
* A URL for a page on the manufacturer's website that describes the
product (if it exists).
* Other URLs of interest (for example, if someone else has a page up
that explains how to use this device with FreeBSD).
* Assorted notes about the product
What would be particularly useful is if we can get this information in
a queryable form (XML, rah rah rah). We could then
* Convert it to DocBook for inclusion in the Handbook
* Build something much like the BSDI's website "Supported Hardware"
section, where you can search for your hardware, and it gives you
back lots of info about the device.
[ OK, I'm pushing the boat out big time on this one, and it'll probably
get shot down, but what the hell ]
* Use this as *documentation in the source tree* to build chunks of
the LINT config file.
Imagine, for example, src/sys/pci/DRIVERS.xml, which looked something
like (and I'm doodling on the back of an envelope at the moment)
<controller>
<type>pci</type>
<device>
<type>NIC</type>
<name>fxp</name>
<descr>EtherExpress Pro/10, Pro/100B, Pro/100+ Fast Ethernet
adapters, based on the Intel i82557 or i82559
chipsets.</descr>
</device>
<device>
[ ... ]
</device>
<option>
<name>PCI_QUIET</name>
<descr>quiets PCI code on chipset settings</descr>
</option>
</controller>
LINT would then become some boiler plate text for things we don't
want to describe this way, plus the output of a process which takes
the above and turns it into a config(8) style file.
When you add a new driver, update the .xml file(s) as necessary. Next
time LINT is built it contains the appropriate text, next time the
Handbook is built it lists the device as supported. . .
Thoughts?
N
--
Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95.
Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission,
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 3: 3:29 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:03:19 +0100 (BST)
From: Lloyd Rennie <lloyd@vbc.net>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote:
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
We expect to have a mirror service setup with the next two months or so -
if noone else has helped with this by then, we'd be happy to.
--
Lloyd Rennie VBCnet GB Ltd lloyd@vbc.net
tel +44 (0) 117 929 1316 http://www.vbc.net fax +44 (0) 117 927 2015
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 4:57: 8 2000
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To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:08:33 PDT."
<20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:03 +0200
Message-ID: <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk>
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
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In message <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes:
>Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
>elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
>server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
>ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
I may be able to arrange a server here in Denmark with a 10-20 Mbit
upstream.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 5:16:19 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:16:15 +0200
From: Jesper Skriver <jesper@skriver.dk>
To: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Cc: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
Message-ID: <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk>
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 11:39:03AM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>, "David O'Brien" writes:
>
> >Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> >ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
>
> I may be able to arrange a server here in Denmark with a 10-20 Mbit
> upstream.
If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org
...
/Jesper
--
Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456
Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks)
Private: Geek @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-)
One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them,
One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 6: 0:37 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930 (CST)
From: Martin Minkus <diskiller@borg-cube.com>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org, bugs@freebsd.org
Subject: calcru: negative time
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I'm sure this is already known, but on FreeBSD 4.0 and 5.0, i keep getting
the follow error ...
calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc)
Where xxxx is a large number, sometimes negative, sometimes not, and yyyy
is the PID of dnetc.
dnetc is the Distributed.net rc5 client of course.
martin.
--
Martin Minkus aka DiSKiLLeR
Email: diskiller@borg-cube.com Web: http://www.diskiller.net
I live in a world of paradox... my willingness to destroy is
your chance for improvement, my hate is your faith, my failure
is your victory - a victory that won't last.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 6: 8:55 2000
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
From: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it
Subject: gdb 4.18 strangeness...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:03:43 +0000
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Ciao!
I have problems debugging ObjC programs... it seems that gdb has problems
stepping through the objc function.
See:
rey:~/Sources/gnustep/core/base/Testing> gdb
shared_obj/ix86/freebsdelf3.4/gnu-gnu-gnu-xgps/invocation
GNU gdb 4.18
Copyright 1998 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain conditions.
Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for details.
This GDB was configured as "i386-unknown-freebsd"...
(gdb) b gnustep_base_user_main
Breakpoint 1 at 0x8049dd3: file invocation.m, line 34.
(gdb) r
Starting program:
/usr/home/mirko/Sources/gnustep/core/base/Testing/shared_obj/ix86/freebsdelf3.4/gnu-gnu-gnu-xgps/invocation
Breakpoint 1, gnustep_base_user_main () at invocation.m:34
34 NSAutoreleasePool *arp = [NSAutoreleasePool new];
Current language: auto; currently objective-c
(gdb) l
29 id obj;
30 id inv;
31 id array;
32 int i;
33 BOOL b;
34 NSAutoreleasePool *arp = [NSAutoreleasePool new];
35
36 /* Create a simple invocation, and get it's return value. */
37 obj = [NSObject new];
38 inv = [[MethodInvocation alloc]
(gdb) n
0x8049848 in _init ()
(gdb) l
39 initWithTarget: obj selector: @selector(isInstance)];
40 [inv invoke];
41 [inv getReturnValue: &b];
42 printf ("object is instance %d\n", (int)b);
43 [inv release];
44
45 /* Do a simple invocation on all the contents of a collection. */
46 array = [Array new];
47 for (i = 0; i < 5; i++)
48 [array addObject: [NSNumber numberWithInt: i]];
(gdb) n
Single stepping until exit from function _init,
which has no line number information.
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x8053196 in objc_msg_lookup ()
(gdb)
This happens with the system gdb 4.18 and the patched (with ObjC support)
version.
Any hints ?
Thanks.
--
Bye,
Mirko <mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it> (NeXTmail, MIME)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 7:19:42 2000
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From: Robert Swindells <swindellsr@genrad.co.uk>
To: holm@freibergnet.de
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: <20000406094902.A47465@pegasus.freibergnet.de> (message from Holm
Tiffe on Thu, 6 Apr 2000 09:49:02 +0200)
Subject: Re: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ?
Reply-To: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk
Message-Id: <20000406141938.626CA37BF8D@hub.freebsd.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 07:19:38 -0700 (PDT)
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>since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface
>from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE.
>It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows:
>lnc0: <PCNet/PCI Ethernet adapter> port 0x10e0-0x10ff \
> mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0
>lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims
>
>... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working.
Try uncommenting the line in your config file for the isa lnc0 driver and
delete the line that reads "device lnc0".
The PCI device should then probe as lnc1.
Robert Swindells
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 7:56:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:55:55 +0200
From: Holm Tiffe <holm@freibergnet.de>
To: rjs@fdy2.demon.co.uk
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: lnc PCNet/PCI Ethernet working ?
Message-ID: <20000406165555.A49296@pegasus.freibergnet.de>
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Robert Swindells wrote:
>
> >since yesterday morning I'm trying to get the onboard Ethernet interface
> >from my nootebook to work with 4.0-STABLE.
>
> >It seems, this is an AMD Lance based chip, it probes as follows:
>
> >lnc0: <PCNet/PCI Ethernet adapter> port 0x10e0-0x10ff \
> > mem 0xfc008000-0xfc00801f irq 9 at device 11.0 on pci0
> >lnc0: driver is using old-style compatability shims
> >
> >... but neither the ether adress gets displayed nor is ifconfig working.
>
> Try uncommenting the line in your config file for the isa lnc0 driver and
> delete the line that reads "device lnc0".
>
> The PCI device should then probe as lnc1.
I've done that, but it doesn't make any difference.
The lnc0 is the only device that gets probed and ifconfig -a
lists only serial an parallel network devices.
Holm
--
FreibergNet Systemhaus GbR Holm Tiffe * Administration, Development
Systemhaus für Daten- und Netzwerktechnik phone +49 3731 781279
Unternehmensgruppe Liebscher & Partner fax +49 3731 781377
D-09599 Freiberg * Am St. Niclas Schacht 13 http://www.freibergnet.de/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:13:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:11:26 +0200
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--------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8
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Let's begin exposing the background:
Some laptops suffer of the "statclock broken" problem: APM suspend
does not work while the RTC is generating periodic interrupts (which
are used for the statistical clock). Currently, the "solution" consists
of setting the 0x20 flag for the apm(4) driver. If this flag is set,
the cpu_initclocks() routine in sys/i386/isa/clock.c does not
initialize the statclok at all. As a consequence, the functionality
of the statclock is lost.
I tried another solution which seems to work for my laptop (a Dell I3.7k).
I added two small routines to clock.c, named statclock_stop() and
statclock_restart(). The first one simply disables the periodic
interrupts from the MC146818A RTC; the second one re-enables those
interrupts. Then, I modified apm_default_suspend() and apm_default_resume()
(in sys/i386/apm/apm.c) for respectively stopping and restarting the
statclock if the 0x20 flag is set. With these small modifications,
now I can suspend and resume my laptop while retaining the statclock
functionality.
I attach a patchfile (against 4.0-RELEASE) to this message. It's
possible that my solution needs to be reworked in order to make
it SMP-safe or something. I would love to hear any comments.
Saludos,
-- JMA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
José Mª Alcaide | mailto:jose@we.lc.ehu.es
Universidad del PaÃs Vasco | mailto:jmas@FreeBSD.org
Dpto. de Electricidad y Electrónica | http://www.we.lc.ehu.es/~jose
Facultad de Ciencias - Campus de Lejona | Tel.: +34-946012479
48940 Lejona (Vizcaya) - SPAIN | Fax: +34-946013071
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Beware of Programmers who carry screwdrivers" -- Leonard Brandwein
--------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;
name="statclock.patch"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="statclock.patch"
--- sys/i386/isa/clock.c.orig Tue Jan 4 23:24:59 2000
+++ sys/i386/isa/clock.c Thu Apr 6 17:05:26 2000
@@ -132,7 +132,6 @@
int clkintr_pending;
int disable_rtc_set; /* disable resettodr() if != 0 */
volatile u_int idelayed;
-int statclock_disable;
u_int stat_imask = SWI_CLOCK_MASK;
#ifndef TIMER_FREQ
#define TIMER_FREQ 1193182
@@ -827,6 +826,28 @@
#endif /* !defined(SMP) */
}
+/* The following two functions are used in apm.c for stopping and
+ * restarting the statclock interrupts from the RTC, if the apm's
+ * broken_statclock flag is active (some laptops don't enter suspend
+ * mode while the RTC is generating interrupts) */
+
+void
+statclock_stop(void)
+{
+ /* disable RTC interrupts and clear any pending one */
+ writertc(RTC_STATUSB, RTCSB_24HR);
+ rtcin(RTC_INTR);
+}
+
+void
+statclock_restart(void)
+{
+ /* don't trust the APM BIOS (paranoia?) */
+ rtcin(RTC_INTR);
+ /* re-enable periodic interrupts */
+ writertc(RTC_STATUSB, rtc_statusb);
+}
+
/*
* Initialize the time of day register, based on the time base which is, e.g.
* from a filesystem.
@@ -975,20 +996,9 @@
struct intrec *clkdesc;
#endif /* APIC_IO */
- if (statclock_disable) {
- /*
- * The stat interrupt mask is different without the
- * statistics clock. Also, don't set the interrupt
- * flag which would normally cause the RTC to generate
- * interrupts.
- */
- stat_imask = HWI_MASK | SWI_MASK;
- rtc_statusb = RTCSB_24HR;
- } else {
- /* Setting stathz to nonzero early helps avoid races. */
- stathz = RTC_NOPROFRATE;
- profhz = RTC_PROFRATE;
- }
+ /* Setting stathz to nonzero early helps avoid races. */
+ stathz = RTC_NOPROFRATE;
+ profhz = RTC_PROFRATE;
/* Finish initializing 8253 timer 0. */
#ifdef APIC_IO
@@ -1023,9 +1033,6 @@
writertc(RTC_STATUSA, rtc_statusa);
writertc(RTC_STATUSB, RTCSB_24HR);
- /* Don't bother enabling the statistics clock. */
- if (statclock_disable)
- return;
diag = rtcin(RTC_DIAG);
if (diag != 0)
printf("RTC BIOS diagnostic error %b\n", diag, RTCDG_BITS);
--- sys/i386/include/clock.h.orig Wed Dec 29 05:32:58 1999
+++ sys/i386/include/clock.h Thu Apr 6 17:00:42 2000
@@ -16,7 +16,6 @@
*/
extern int adjkerntz;
extern int disable_rtc_set;
-extern int statclock_disable;
extern u_int timer_freq;
extern int timer0_max_count;
extern u_int tsc_freq;
@@ -45,6 +44,8 @@
#endif
int sysbeep __P((int pitch, int period));
void i8254_restore __P((void));
+void statclock_stop __P((void));
+void statclock_restart __P((void));
#endif /* _KERNEL */
--- sys/i386/apm/apm.c.orig Sun Feb 6 15:57:05 2000
+++ sys/i386/apm/apm.c Thu Apr 6 17:01:58 2000
@@ -56,6 +56,8 @@
static u_long apm_version;
+static int broken_statclock = 0;
+
int apm_evindex;
#define SCFLAG_ONORMAL 0x0000001
@@ -402,6 +404,10 @@
u_int second, minute, hour;
struct timeval resume_time, tmp_time;
+ /* re-enable statclock if it's broken */
+ if (broken_statclock)
+ statclock_restart();
+
/* modified for adjkerntz */
pl = splsoftclock();
i8254_restore(); /* restore timer_freq and hz */
@@ -451,6 +457,11 @@
microtime(&suspend_time);
timevalsub(&diff_time, &suspend_time);
splx(pl);
+
+ /* stop statclock if it's broken */
+ if (broken_statclock)
+ statclock_stop();
+
return 0;
}
@@ -1003,7 +1014,7 @@
flags = 0;
if (flags & 0x20)
- statclock_disable = 1;
+ broken_statclock = 1;
sc->initialized = 0;
--------------F056678DFC8CD17B1088D5B8--
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:15:55 2000
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From: mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it
Subject: GCC 2.95.2 __builtin_apply() problems...
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:10:45 +0000
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Ciao!
This prg seems to have problems with gcc 2.95.2 under FreeBSD.
Here (3.4-stable, egcs from ports) it returns:
rey:/tmp/tmp> ./conftest
00 00 00 00 30 56 0d 28 00 00 00 00 00 5e 3a c8 07 40 bf bf 97 bc 04 28 7d 82 04
08 04 cf 8a 06 b4 8f 05 28 40 d0 bf bf
5e 3a c8 43
It should return the 'value' at 'retframe+8' instead of 0. The value is a bit
shifted 'retvalue+13' and latest byte missed.
If you change the value type from 'float' to 'long double' it works correctly.
Any hints ?
Thanks.
<-*- cut -*->
#include <sys/types.h>
float value = 400.456;
float floatValue()
{
return value;
}
void main()
{
int i;
char *(imp) = floatValue;
void* retframe;
void* frame = __builtin_apply_args(); //malloc(116);
retframe = __builtin_apply((void(*)(void))imp, frame, 0);
for(i=0; i < 40; i++)
printf("%02x ", ((unsigned char *)retframe)[i]);
printf("\n");
for(i=0; i < 4; i++)
printf("%02x ", ((unsigned char *)&value)[i]);
printf("\n");
exit(0);
}
<-*- cut -*->
--
Bye,
Mirko <mirko.viviani@rccr.cremona.it> (NeXTmail, MIME)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:24:42 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Message-ID: <38ECABCC.30ED2879@algroup.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:22:52 +0100
From: Adam Laurie <adam@algroup.co.uk>
Organization: A.L. Group plc
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To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com>
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David O'Brien wrote:
>
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
Tell me the exact tree you want mirrored and I'll make put it on:
ftp://opensores.thebunker.net/
and
http://opensores.thebunker.net/
cheers,
Adam
--
Adam Laurie Tel: +44 (181) 742 0755
A.L. Digital Ltd. Fax: +44 (181) 742 5995
Voysey House
Barley Mow Passage http://www.aldigital.co.uk
London W4 4GB mailto:adam@algroup.co.uk
UNITED KINGDOM PGP key on keyservers
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 8:41:24 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:41:15 +0100
From: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: bad memory patch?
Message-ID: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
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I saw this link recently...
http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/
Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to
find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a
kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded
from addressable/virtual memory from then on.
Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
jm
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft:
"Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side.
Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9: 2:28 2000
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To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org
Cc: ume@mahoroba.org
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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From: Hajimu UMEMOTO (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCR19LXBsoQiA=?= =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCSCUbKEI=?=) <ume@mahoroba.org>
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>>>>> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 18:08:33 -0700
>>>>> "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu> said:
obrien> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
obrien> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
obrien> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
obrien> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
daemon.jp.freebsd.org has.
--
Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan
ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@FreeBSD.org
http://www.imasy.org/~ume/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9:52:54 2000
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From: Andre Albsmeier <andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
Message-ID: <20000406185240.A24261@internal>
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On Wed, 05-Apr-2000 at 18:08:33 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
Try
ftp://ftp.uni-trier.de/pub/unix/systems/BSD/FreeBSD/development/CTM-international
-Andre
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 9:53:29 2000
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From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" <jgowdy@home.com>
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UMEMOTO@FreeBSD.ORG ($BG_K(B $BH%(B) <ume@mahoroba.org>)>
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Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:03:15 -0700
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>Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
>elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
heh lol. I wouldn't think it could be that serious. :)
Shall we lead a holy Jihad against it ?
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:12:47 2000
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To: Martin Minkus <diskiller@borg-cube.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, bugs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: calcru: negative time
In-Reply-To: Message from Martin Minkus <diskiller@borg-cube.com>
of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930." <Pine.BSF.4.21.0004062104400.62885-100000@bender.on.diskiller.net>
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 10:12:22 -0700
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From: Parag Patel <parag@cgt.com>
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On Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:06:49 +0930, Martin Minkus wrote:
>
>calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc)
I've been seeing the same problem sporadically on my 2xPII box that I
upgraded from 3.4 to 4.0. It *only* occurs for the setiathome binary,
and it *seems* to be triggered when the X server is restarted after
logout/login via xdm.
I went through the suggestions in the troubleshooting section of the
FAQ, namely trying kern.timecounter.method=1 and such. Curiously, it
made no difference. Even more curiously, the same machine used to work
just fine under 3.4 without this mod (timecounter hardware is PIIX).
I had recently shuffled the audio card around in my system to try to
figure out an unrelated problem with why audio recording isn't working.
Turns out that the current slot the PCI sound card is now sitting in
appears to be sharing an IRQ with the video card. I need to take the
machine down and move the card out of this slot to see if the calcru
errors continue or not, since it does appear to be interrupt related.
I just haven't had the time to take my box down to try this yet, and so
wasn't going to post a note 'till I'd figured it out. Hopefully you
have a bit more free time to experiment.
-- Parag Patel
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:13:25 -0700
From: Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>
To: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Message-ID: <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu>
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:41:15PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote:
> I saw this link recently...
>
> http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/
>
> Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to
> find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a
> kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded
> from addressable/virtual memory from then on.
>
> Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
Not really. If you run it and it says the RAM is bad you know it's bad.
If you run it and it says the RAM is good, then you whine and batch and
moan for weeks, if not months, that FreeBSD is busted and your machine
is perfectly functional until you finaly replace the RAM and the problem
goes away. This is not what we want to see. The problem is that
testing can't prove correctness because it can't try EVERY possiable
access combination.
-- Brooks
P.S. The "you" in the above doens't refer to the poster, it refers to
the poor sucker with a problem who tries to use this so called tool.
--
Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:39:27 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 14:38:51 -0400
To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>,
Marco van de Voort <marcov@stack.nl>
From: Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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At 5:30 PM -0400 4/5/00, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>Marco van de Voort, wrote on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM +0100:
> >
> > I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts
> > that of UNICODE support are we thinking of?
>
>I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the
>vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes:
[...assorted good things happen...]
>I am willing to do this work, have a good understanding of
>the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a
>member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
>my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to
>do a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
>is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
>Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
>welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
>and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
>they will be reviewed and committed.
I am not a core member, and I can't guarantee what reaction you
will get after making such changes. However, I can say that I
think the changes would be a good thing, and that if you had the
changes made then I think there are several people who would be
happy to campaign for their inclusion. (Mind you, the actual
implementation might have to change a little as part of that
campaign, but there are people who would be interested in seeing
this).
I doubt anyone would guarantee that your changes would be accepted,
but I also doubt that anyone on the core would guarantee to REJECT
them just because some people have straw-man problems with unicode.
By all means, please see what you can do. It is much easier to
debate a specific set of changes than to get into philosophical
discussions about the metaphysical desirability of all possible
[and not-implemented] solutions to some wider issue.
Coordinate your changes with whoever generally works on the console
or keyboard support, just so you're not working on a major set of
changes at the same time they're working on some unrelated major
set of changes. Ignore the raging philosophical debate for now.
---
Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 10:40: 6 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:57 -0600
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To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu
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Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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David O'Brien wrote:
>
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
For a mere $100,000 per year I could anchor a boat 3 miles outside the
golden gate and get a wireless T-1 service. Anybody got some change?
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11: 2: 9 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:01:56 +0100
From: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
To: Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Message-ID: <20000406190156.B30755@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu>
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:13:25AM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 04:41:15PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote:
> > I saw this link recently...
> >
> > http://home.zonnet.nl/vanrein/badram/
> >
> > Apparently, you make a floppy with the supplied image, boot with it to
> > find the bad RAM addresses, and then those addresses are passed on as a
> > kernel parameter once the patch is applied. Bad addresses will be excluded
> > from addressable/virtual memory from then on.
> >
> > Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
>
> Not really. If you run it and it says the RAM is bad you know it's bad.
> If you run it and it says the RAM is good, then you whine and batch and
> moan for weeks, if not months, that FreeBSD is busted and your machine
> is perfectly functional until you finaly replace the RAM and the problem
> goes away. This is not what we want to see. The problem is that
> testing can't prove correctness because it can't try EVERY possiable
> access combination.
I think the concept here is that it allows you to use the bad RAM. It's
like bad blocks on a hard drive. SO now, if you think you have bad RAM, you
can run the test, mark the bad blocks, and memory will be allocated 'around'
them.
> P.S. The "you" in the above doens't refer to the poster, it refers to
> the poor sucker with a problem who tries to use this so called tool.
jm
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathon McKitrick -- jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org To Microsoft:
"Your tyranny I was part of, is now cracking on every side.
Now your own life is in danger. Your Empire is on fire." Front 242
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11:23:11 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:19:19 -0700
From: Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>
To: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Message-ID: <20000406111919.A22381@orion.ac.hmc.edu>
References: <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20000406101325.C10876@orion.ac.hmc.edu> <20000406190156.B30755@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 07:01:56PM +0100, J McKitrick wrote:
> I think the concept here is that it allows you to use the bad RAM. It's
> like bad blocks on a hard drive. SO now, if you think you have bad RAM, you
> can run the test, mark the bad blocks, and memory will be allocated 'around'
> them.
That would be fine if it were possiable to write a test which found all
bad RAM, but you can't do that. I don't think this is the sort of thing
we want anywhere near the project. It's just not possiable to make this
sort of thing reliable. It's rather poor solution to the problem. The
right solution is to buy RAM from a vendor with lifetime free
replacement. It might cost a bit more, but you don't have to deal with
unreliable hacks like this. It all comes back to the problem that if
you test a complex system, you can prove it's bad but you can't prove
it's good.
-- Brooks
--
Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 11:24: 6 2000
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Subject: Re: calcru: negative time
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 20:23:41 +0200
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I'm seeing the same thing on my (headless) server/natd box, only it
happens with syslogd. TOP reports the processor time consumed by
it so far as being '???', and the 'calcru' message appears about 30x
daily in the syslog.
> I'm sure this is already known, but on FreeBSD 4.0 and 5.0, i keep getting
> the follow error ...
>
> calcru: negative time of xxxxxxxxxx usec for pid yyyyy (dnetc)
>
> Where xxxx is a large number, sometimes negative, sometimes not, and yyyy
> is the PID of dnetc.
>
> dnetc is the Distributed.net rc5 client of course.
>
> martin.
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:05:48 -0700
From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: Jesper Skriver <jesper@skriver.dk>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote:
> > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
>
> If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org
I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login,
but an ``ls'' timed out.
--
-- David (obrien@NUXI.com)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:23:25 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote:
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think
(e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as
ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar.
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:30:15 2000
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From: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:23:21PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think
> (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as
> ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar.
Can someone that knows what they are get a list of them together so we
can ship it off to DG to create the DNS entries?
--
-- David (obrien@NUXI.com)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Could anyone clue me in as to what kind of resources mirroring the
int. crypto would take? I'd be more than willing to setup a Canadian
mirror, I'm on T1 to UUnet Canada here in Montreal.
Thanks,
Matt
On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Kris Kennaway wrote:
: Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:23:21 -0400
: From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
: To: David O'Brien <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
: Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, security@freebsd.org
: Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
:
: On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote:
:
: > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
: > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
: > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
: > ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
:
: There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think
: (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as
: ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar.
:
: Kris
:
: ----
: In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
: -- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
:
:
:
: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
: with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message
:
Matt Heckaman
matt@arpa.mail.net
http://www.lucida.qc.ca
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:47:22 2000
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From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, security@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:23:21PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > There are already international mirrors which mirror the crypto, I think
> > (e.g. I know there's one in japan). We need to deginate them as
> > ftpN.internat.freebsd.org or similar.
>
> Can someone that knows what they are get a list of them together so we
> can ship it off to DG to create the DNS entries?
I don't think that anyone knows them all..but quite a few have already
been reported. I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same
directory structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute
e.g. ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from
internat.
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 12:52:46 2000
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security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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References: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> <791.955013943@critter.freebsd.dk> <20000406141615.H80268@skriver.dk> <20000406120548.B81460@dragon.nuxi.com>
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:05:48PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote:
> > > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> > > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> > > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
> >
> > If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org
>
> I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login,
> but an ``ls'' timed out.
I found out that not using passive mode works.
--
B.Walter COSMO-Project http://www.cosmo-project.de
ticso@cicely.de Usergroup info@cosmo-project.de
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 13:10:10 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
References: <38EC3755.DA40DEC8@home.com>
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Warner,
> rid = 0x10;
> res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
...
> should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is
> I/O mapped rather than memory mapped.
>
> In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space
> where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only
> need apply.
Thanks, that helps. BUT...
At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for.
However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that
bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and
looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is.
So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from
the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that?
Thanks,
Gary
--
=========================================================
Gary Corcoran - Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
Lucent Microelectronics - Client Access Broadband Systems
Communications Protocol & Driver Development Group
"We make the drivers that make communications work"
Email: gcorcoran@lucent.com
---------------------------------------------------------
There are only two kinds of machines - those that fail
little by little, and those that fail all at once.
=========================================================
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 13:48:27 2000
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Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:47:16PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same directory
> structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute e.g.
> ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from
> internat.
Can someone that can actually get into ftp.internat.freebsd.org compare
them?
--
-- David (obrien@NUXI.com)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:30:19 2000
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To: David Yeske <dyeske@yahoo.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: usb stuff
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> I am using a usb mouse, and dlink ethernet nic connected to a belkin
> usb hub in FreeBSD 4.0R. I also have a "Solidtek ACK-298" keyboard,
> but I have not gotten any progress out of it in freebsd. Has anyone
> tried usb "direct connect" with freebsd? That would be much cooler
> than plip I think...
The direct connect thingies are not yet supported. But I have one at
home and two different drivers that kind of make it work.
The (netgraph based) driver was written by Doug Ambrisko and Julian
Elischer.
Nick
--
n_hibma@webweaving.org
n_hibma@freebsd.org USB project
http://www.etla.net/~n_hibma/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:30:24 2000
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To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 EDT."
<38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com>
References: <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> <38EC3755.DA40DEC8@home.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:29:19 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes:
: At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for.
: However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that
: bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and
: looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is.
: So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from
: the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that?
bt = rman_get_bustag(res1);
bh = rman_get_bushandle(res1);
bus_space_read_{1,2,4}(bt, bh, offset)
bus_space_write_{1,2,4}(bt, bh, offset, value)
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 14:54:41 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:54:22 -0400
From: Alexander Matey <matey@cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: Cameron Grant <gandalf@vilnya.demon.co.uk>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: newpcm - multiple playback channels support
Message-ID: <20000406175422.A391@cis.ohio-state.edu>
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Hello Cameron,
I was playing around newpcm quite a bit lately and noticed the
following. All device nodes (dsp%d.%d, ...) which newpcm code registers
if more than a single playback/recording channel is supported by
a sound card driver have same minor number which ultimately points to
channel 0 (I'm wondering how t4dwave.c has been able to support 4
playback channels). DEVFS entries look like this:
lx$kazoo:/sys/kern ll /d/dsp*
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.0
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.1
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.2
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 09:00 /d/dsp0.3
The source of the problem seems to be the code in /sys/dev/sound/pcm/sound.c.
Macros PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) and PCMCHAN(x) use 2nd byte to store the
channel index in device minor:
#define PCMMINOR(x) (minor(x))
#define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000ff00) >> 8)
#define PCMUNIT(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x000000f0) >> 4)
#define PCMDEV(x) (PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000000f)
#define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 8) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f))
And minor() from /sys/kern/kern_conf.c masks out 2nd byte because
it's used by makedev() (also from /sys/kern/kern_conf.c) to store device
major number. We're losing channel index here:
int
minor(dev_t x)
{
if (x == NODEV)
return NOUDEV;
return(x->si_udev & 0xffff00ff);
}
The following patch to sound.c moves audio channel index to 3rd byte of device
minor number:
lx$kazoo:/snd/pcm diff ~/cvs/sys_dev_sound/pcm/sound.c ./sound.c
69c69
< currently minor = (channel << 8) + (unit << 4) + dev
---
> currently minor = (channel << 16) + (unit << 4) + dev
80c80
< minor = (channel << 8) + (unit << 4) + dev
---
> minor = (channel << 16) + (unit << 4) + dev
84c84
< #define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x0000ff00) >> 8)
---
> #define PCMCHAN(x) ((PCMMINOR(x) & 0x00ff0000) >> 16)
87c87
< #define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 8) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f))
---
> #define PCMMKMINOR(u, d, c) ((((c) & 0xff) << 16) | (((u) & 0x0f) << 4) | ((d) & 0x0f))
After applying this patch:
lx$kazoo:/sys/kern ll /d/dsp*
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 3 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.0
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00010003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.1
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00020003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.2
crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel - 30, 0x00030003 6 Apr 17:14 /d/dsp0.3
I successfully tested this configuration with 4 instances of mpg123
playing 4 different streams thru dsp0.[0-3] simultaneously on my Diamond
MX-300 card. I'm currently in the process of porting Aureal's linux driver
for au88x0 chipsets to FreeBSD (yes, it contains binary only modules,
unfortunately).
If this change isn't breaking anything I think we could consider
incorporating this into /sys/dev/sound/pcm/sound.c. /dev/MAKEDEV does
not need to be updated since it only creates device nodes for channel 0.
Any comments?
--
Alexander Matey
Columbus, OH
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To: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:41:15 BST."
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In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick writes:
: Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad
memory, replace it, don't work around it.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 15: 1: 0 2000
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To: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
Cc: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
security@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:39:57 MDT."
<38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com>
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:59:58 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <38ECCBED.F5409DF3@softweyr.com> Wes Peters writes:
: For a mere $100,000 per year I could anchor a boat 3 miles outside the
: golden gate and get a wireless T-1 service. Anybody got some change?
If you could find a location that this would be legal from, I'd be
game to help :-)
Wanrer
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 17: 5:40 2000
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To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:14:03 EDT."
<38ECF00B.CA0AD45B@lucent.com>
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 17:10:38 -0700
From: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>
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> Warner,
>
> > rid = 0x10;
> > res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
> ...
> > should do the trick. Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is
> > I/O mapped rather than memory mapped.
> >
> > In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space
> > where the BAR register that you want to use is. Multiples of 4 only
> > need apply.
>
> Thanks, that helps. BUT...
> At first I thought "res1" would be the base address I was looking for.
> However, it appears (boy I wish this stuff was documented!) that
> bus_alloc_resource returns a "struct resource *". But I looked and
> looked and I can't find the definition of what a "struct resource" is.
> So I'm still in the dark as to how to get my I/O base address from
> the pointer returned by the bus_alloc_resource. How do I do that?
You don't.
You use rman_get_bustag() and rman_get_bushandle() to get the bus tag and
bus handle for the region, and then pass these to the bus_space_read_?
and bus_space_write_? functions when you want to perform your I/O.
You're probably looking at code that thinks it can do "inb" and so forth;
sorry, we don't do that anymore (and if you want this code to work on
anything other than an x86 system, you need to come to grips with this).
If you're fighting a legacy codebase, you've got an interesting time
ahead of you with six separate regions; just hacking around this with
preprocessor macros isn't going to be terribly easy.
--
\\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith
\\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org
\\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 17:46:45 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:50:45 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems
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To: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
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Mike Smith wrote:
> You're probably looking at code that thinks it can do "inb" and so forth;
Yep, more or less. That is, sprinkled throughout the code, there are things
of the form (just to give 1 example):
NdisRawReadPortUchar( (OneOfTheBaseAddresses + SomeOffset), &variable);
> sorry, we don't do that anymore (and if you want this code to work on
> anything other than an x86 system, you need to come to grips with this).
I kinda figured that. However, since I don't have anything but x86 systems
in my lab, and this FreeBSD support is (so far) only a one-man-show, and we
won't be releasing the source code for this, I'm willing to special-case it
if need be...
> If you're fighting a legacy codebase, you've got an interesting time
> ahead of you with six separate regions; just hacking around this with
> preprocessor macros isn't going to be terribly easy.
Yes, I'm trying to port our driver by supplying "glue" in the form of macros
and small translating C routines (plus FreeBSD-only initialization code).
And I see you understand the problem -- I was hoping to do something like:
#define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port))
But for this scheme to work, I need to have the base addresses defined
correctly, since when I get an NdisRawReadPort*(), I don't know from which
of the base addresses they offset. Now I can come up with a kluge, and
assign arbitrary but defined addresses to the base addresses, and then
write a little glue subroutine to see if the port address is within a
certain range it must have been an offset from that certain bus resource,
subtract the then-known base address to get the offset, and then do the
bus_space_read. But you can see that that is a kluge which adds a few cycles
of overhead for every access (and is more suited to a small routine than a
macro :).
So I was about to ask for help in getting the real I/O base addresses,
when I went looking through the system header files and found that,
for x86 machines, the "handle" is, effectively, really the I/O base address.
So, since I'm only targeting x86 machines anyway, I decided to "cheat"
and take the return values from rman_get_bushandle() and assign them to my
base addresses. Then I *can* use the simple macros like the one above.
As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this?
[Side note: now that I wiped FreeBSD 3.4 and installed 4.0, I'm getting
random spontaneous reboots of my machine, 2 or 3 times per day (just running
X, terminals, and either vi or a screensaver). It's *very* annoying! :) :-(
(and I haven't even *tried* to load *my* driver yet) Nothing shows
up in /var/log/messages, but I guess that's not too surprising.]
Thanks,
Gary
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:46: 7 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:41:16 +0000
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
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Subject: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
Would the entiry system crash ?
--
If you're happy, you're successful.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 19:22:06 -0700
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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* Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br> [000406 19:12] wrote:
> Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
> system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
>
> Would the entiry system crash ?
please define "wrongly coded".
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:30 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200004070156.SAA92728@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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:Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
:system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
:
:Would the entiry system crash ?
Yes.
-Matt
Matthew Dillon
<dillon@backplane.com>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 18:56:37 2000
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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:26:14 +0930 (CST)
From: "Daniel O'Connor" <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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On 06-Apr-00 Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
> system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
^-- I assume you mean 'driver'
> Would the entiry system crash ?
It depends on the bug, sometimes you'll just spin forever, or end up keeping
processes stuck in your driver etc.. Othertimes the system will panic (ie try to
reference memory you shouldn't etc..)
---
Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
"The nice thing about standards is that there
are so many of them to choose from."
-- Andrew Tanenbaum
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19: 6:28 2000
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To: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
Cc: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:50:45 EDT."
<38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com>
References: <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 20:05:32 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes:
: #define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port))
Yes. The bus_space_handle_t that rman_get_bushandle returns on the
i386 is the portnumber in I/O space. However, you'll need a separate
one for each of them since you don't know where the bios is going to
map the areas relative to one another.
: for x86 machines, the "handle" is, effectively, really the I/O base address.
Yes.
: As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this?
As long as they don't cahnge too much, you should be OK at this.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19: 9:35 2000
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From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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* Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com> [000406 19:24] wrote:
> :Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
> :system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
> :
> :Would the entiry system crash ?
>
> Yes.
Yes, but assuming he means driver just about any wrongly coded
driver under any OS has the potential to lock up or crash the
entire system, I'm pretty sure I read that incorrect accesses
to some devices may cause them to wedge system busses, at that
point there's not much one can do besideds panic.
So it's not just unix. :)
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:13:26 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:12:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: need help
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hi :
when loading the kernel , i have the following error :
> file system failed help!
>try to enter the full path shell or --------
how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete
the kernel load
best regards,
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:19:55 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 02:18:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: need help
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hi :
when loading the kernel , i have the following error :
**************************************************
the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency:
/dev/rwd0s1e(/var)
> file system failed help!
>try to enter the full path shell or --------
*************************************************
how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete
the kernel load
best regards,
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:20:39 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:24:48 -0400
From: "Gary T. Corcoran" <gcorcoran@lucent.com>
Organization: Lucent Microelectronics - Modem and Multimedia Systems
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Mike Smith <msmith@freebsd.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?
References: <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> <200004070010.RAA01618@mass.cdrom.com> <200004070205.UAA95227@harmony.village.org>
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Warner Losh wrote:
>
> In message <38ED30E5.CA9D9578@lucent.com> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes:
> : #define NdisRawReadPortUchar( _port, _ptr) *(_ptr) = inb((_port))
>
> Yes. The bus_space_handle_t that rman_get_bushandle returns on the
> i386 is the portnumber in I/O space. However, you'll need a separate
> one for each of them since you don't know where the bios is going to
> map the areas relative to one another.
Right.
> : As long as I stick to x86 machines, do you see any problem in doing this?
>
> As long as they don't cahnge too much, you should be OK at this.
Okay - thanks.
Now I just have to get my code to compile (into a module)... ;-)
Gary
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 19:57:13 2000
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Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:52:30 +0000
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
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To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>
> * Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br> [000406 19:12] wrote:
> > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
> > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
> >
> > Would the entiry system crash ?
>
> please define "wrongly coded".
Definition: the driver tries to access a memory outside its memory
space.
Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
--
If you're happy, you're successful.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 20: 7:11 2000
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To: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2000 17:30:38 -0400."
<20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net>
References: <20000405173037.A460@sasami.jurai.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:13:14 +0900
From: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
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>I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the
>vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes:
>
>a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather
>than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should
>greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications
>that desire so obtain Unicode input directly;
As you are well aware, the keyboard driver (and keyboard related part
of syscons has no knowledge about the character code generated via the
keymap. Thus, we will need little or no modification to handle
Unicode-based keymaps.
>b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent
>chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts,
>get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow
>creation of unified font files describing many languages at once.
Um, well, we may be able to use a unified font file for many
languages. But, do not expect that we will be able to create a single
font file which will be suitable for ALL languages.
That's simply impossible for Chinese, Japanese and Korean languages,
because of the problem (deficiency) of the Han unification done in the
Unicode. (That is my understanding.)
>c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in
>text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover,
The pcvt driver already uses 512 chars.
>in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with
>fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed
>at once.
If we intend to display any languages at once in the console, the
raster mode is the only solution. I agree. But, we need a fair
amount of knowledge about the language/script we are dealing with, in
order to display its text correctly.
I don't think that a single set of Unicode->glyph mapper and font
renderer is fit for the purpose. We still need language/script-
specific modules.
>d) userland applications wouldn't feel a thing, and will continue
>to receive pure 8-bit stream translated from/to Unicode by syscons by
>way of a user-supplied encoding table.
Sure.
>UTF-8 may play a role of
>one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way
>to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired.
Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different
issue which, I think, should be discussed separately.
>I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of
>the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a
>member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
>my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do
>a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
>is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
>Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
>welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
>and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
>they will be reviewed and committed.
We need more discussion to design a reasoble implementation
(compromise :-) which does not make lives of some people difficult by
imposing a single rigid scheme.
Unicode, as it stands now, does not seem to be THE solution which
addresses all the issues/problems/complexities of the languages in the
world... It can be viewed/used as a tool, though.
Kazu
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:17: 5 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:18:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
Cc: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote:
> Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different
> issue which, I think, should be discussed separately.
I agree with this completely. The question is, where?
--
Alex
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
-- Anonymous Coward
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:26:12 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 22:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: need help
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.1000407021747.20477E-100000@stud.alakhawayn.ma>
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On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Mourad Lakhdar wrote:
> when loading the kernel , i have the following error :
> **************************************************
> the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency:
> /dev/rwd0s1e(/var)
You have file system problems/corruption of some kind. Enter single-user
mode and try running fsck -p by hand, or failing that perhaps restore from
a backup.
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:32: 0 2000
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To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:18:08 MST."
<Pine.LNX.4.20.0004062216260.18844-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004062216260.18844-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:38:19 +0900
From: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
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>On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote:
>
>> Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different
>> issue which, I think, should be discussed separately.
>
> I agree with this completely. The question is, where?
I didn't say this mailing list is not suitable for such discussion.
You can discuss it here, but I think it should be in a separate
thread. That's all.
Kazu
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 22:36:42 2000
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 23:02:35 -0700
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Message-ID: <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br>
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* Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br> [000406 20:23] wrote:
> Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> >
> > * Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br> [000406 19:12] wrote:
> > > Considering the current kernel design approach used by traditional
> > > system, what happens if a drive were wrongly coded ?
> > >
> > > Would the entiry system crash ?
> >
> > please define "wrongly coded".
>
> Definition: the driver tries to access a memory outside its memory
> space.
Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and
io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems
with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however...
>
> Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
> This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on
chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 23: 4:39 2000
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Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-Reply-To: <20000405180833.A15912@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at
"Apr 5, 2000 06:08:33 pm"
To: obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:57:45 +0200 (SAST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, security@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: "Geoff Rehmet" <geoffr@is.co.za>
From: "Geoff Rehmet" <geoffr@is.co.za>
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David O'Brien writes :
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
>
Part of the reason for the poor access is that we are suffering from
late delivery of circuits on the part of AT&T (some of the circuits have
been outstanding since 15 November). - The site is located on one of
our customers' premises. Of course, latency across satellite circuits
also does not help. A further problem is apparent congestion on the
customer's access crcuit to us - they really seem to be nailing their
Internet access. (I'm seeing 600ms ping times across the access circuit.)
Thus, a small modicum of improvement may be achieved
if we were to mirror the site on ftp.is.co.za. This should be possible
when we upgrade our ftp server (sometime this month). I can check with
the administrator of our ftp site, whether he will be able to do the
mirror. Only problem is that the directory structures will need to
differ, as we are already ftp4.za.freebsd.org.
For anyone from across the pond trying to access the site, your best
mileage will probably be between 1900 and 0600 GMT, when most of our
clients are asleep.
Ciao,
Geoff.
--
Geoff Rehmet,
The Internet Solution
geoffr@is.co.za; geoff@rucus.ru.ac.za; csgr@freebsd.org
tel: +27-83-292-5800
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Apr 6 23: 9:26 2000
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From: Howard Leadmon <howardl@account.abs.net>
Message-Id: <200004070557.BAA14434@account.abs.net>
Subject: Re: Troubles with network & buffers.. Any Ideas??
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000327160242.02248880@marble.sentex.ca> from Mike Tancsa
at "Mar 27, 2000 04:02:42 pm"
To: Mike Tancsa <mike@sentex.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:57:29 -0400 (EDT)
Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> > Thanks for the fast reply.. :)
> >
> > Needless to say the machine has been rebooted since the last time it
> >died, but I'll try and keep an eye on it and next time it locks if I can
> >get to the console I'll see if I can grab a snapshot at that time. If a
> >current running snapshot is of any use just let me know..
>
>
> Perhaps just setup a cronjob...
>
> vmstat -m >> /var/log/vm.out
>
> But have a look at your busier times to see if the High Use is getting
> dagerously close to the limit. Do you have a lot of aliased IPs on this
> box by any chance ? As its an IRC server, its no doubt subject to various
> attacks. Check to see if there is any ICMP funny business being blasted at
> you like a few million ICMP redirects. ipfw and sysctl can be your friend
> here.
>
> ---Mike
Hello Mike,
Sorry for the long delay on this, just had a million things pop up at work
and was so tired by day end I just crashed. Anyway to try and shed some
more light on the above, I have done a few interesting things over the
past couple weeks to try and gather some more info on what is happening.
Also as for ICMP issues, I not only have ICMP limited to 32K max in my
Cisco router using CAR, but also have "options ICMP_BANDLIM" defined in
the kernel, and enabled in my rc.conf to just be sure I am not getting
hammered in that regard.
Anyway here is what I have done, hopefully this may shed some useful
information, and if not I tried.. :)
First as mentioned previously I had an Intel EEpro card in the box running
to my Cisco Catalyst switch, and on the console when everything fell apart
and I lost connectivity, I see the following:
fxp0: device timeout
syslogd: sendto: No buffer space available
Here is some of the requested debugging information:
ifconfig:
fxp0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
inet 207.114.4.35 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 207.114.4.47
inet 207.114.4.36 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.36
inet 207.114.4.45 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.45
inet 207.114.4.46 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.46
ether 00:a0:c9:c7:fb:ff
media: autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex>) status: active
supported media: autoselect 100baseTX <full-duplex> 100baseTX 10baseT/UTP <full-duplex> 10baseT/UTP
netstat -m:
403/21472/81920 mbufs in use (current/peak/max):
259 mbufs allocated to data
144 mbufs allocated to packet headers
124/10652/20480 mbuf clusters in use (current/peak/max)
23988 Kbytes allocated to network (1% in use)
0 requests for memory denied
0 requests for memory delayed
0 calls to protocol drain routines
vmstat -m:
Memory statistics by bucket size
Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree
16 286 994 4581005 0 1280
32 179 36685 518690 0 640
64 14436 4380 1373135 0 320
128 1096 88 9883 0 160
256 13335 30569 317127 0 80
512 18 6 74806 0 40
1K 107 949 12272 0 20
2K 12 6 18478 0 10
4K 13 2 98260 0 5
8K 2 2 384331 0 5
16K 8 0 2689062 0 5
32K 3 0 1321506 0 5
64K 3 0 3 0 5
128K 3 0 3 0 5
256K 1 0 1 0 5
Memory usage type by bucket size
Size Type(s)
16 MD disk, kld, proc-args, atexit, temp, sysctl, bus, rman, soname,
pcb, mount, vnodes, ether_multi, routetbl, p1003.1b, devbuf,
isa_devlist, atkbddev
32 kld, sigio, proc-args, temp, pgrp, proc, subproc, sysctl, bus,
eventhandler, SWAP, pcb, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, BPF, ifaddr,
ether_multi, routetbl, in_multi, tseg_qent, devbuf
64 file, proc-args, lockf, temp, session, subproc, bus, eventhandler,
rman, pcb, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, ifaddr,
ether_multi, routetbl, isadev, AD driver
128 ppbusdev, kld, timecounter, dev_t, proc-args, zombie, temp, cred,
bus, ttys, soname, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, mount, vnodes,
ifaddr, routetbl, ZONE, devbuf
256 file desc, proc-args, temp, subproc, bus, ttys, vnodes, ifaddr,
routetbl, NFS daemon, FFS node, devbuf
512 kld, file desc, temp, bus, ioctlops, ptys, BIO buffer, mount,
UFS mount, ATA generic, devbuf, isa_devlist
1K MD disk, kld, file desc, temp, proc, bus, ioctlops, BIO buffer,
NQNFS Lease, AD driver, devbuf, isa_devlist
2K file desc, temp, bus, pcb, BIO buffer, UFS mount, devbuf
4K kld, file desc, temp, proc, devbuf, memdesc
8K kld, file desc, temp, UFS mount
16K file desc, temp, devbuf
32K file desc, temp, devbuf, mbuf
64K ISOFS mount, NFS hash, UFS ihash
128K temp, vfscache, VM pgdata
256K SWAP
Memory statistics by type Type Kern
Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s)
MD disk 2 2K 2K 64194K 2 0 0 16,1K
ppbusdev 3 1K 1K 64194K 3 0 0 128
ISOFS mount 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K
kld 10 11K 16K 64194K 53 0 0 16,32,128,512,1K,4K,8K
timecounter 10 2K 2K 64194K 10 0 0 128
dev_t 540 68K 68K 64194K 540 0 0 128
file desc 35 46K 60K 64194K 6800 0 0 256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K
file 109 7K 283K 64194K 1135473 0 0 64
sigio 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 32
proc-args 23 1K 2K 64194K 5559 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
zombie 0 0K 1K 64194K 6753 0 0 128
atexit 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 16
lockf 1 1K 1K 64194K 23 0 0 64
temp 177 82K 115K 64194K 4596159 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K,128K
pgrp 22 1K 1K 64194K 1233 0 0 32
session 20 2K 2K 64194K 949 0 0 64
proc 7 10K 10K 64194K 11 0 0 32,1K,4K
subproc 72 7K 10K 64194K 14795 0 0 32,64,256
cred 9 2K 2K 64194K 1082 0 0 128
sysctl 0 0K 1K 64194K 646 0 0 16,32
bus 358 29K 29K 64194K 476 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K
eventhandler 11 1K 1K 64194K 11 0 0 32,64
SWAP 2 141K 141K 64194K 2 0 0 32,256K
ioctlops 0 0K 1K 64194K 5 0 0 512,1K
rman 50 3K 3K 64194K 79 0 0 16,64
ttys 410 53K 63K 64194K 1229 0 0 128,256
ptys 3 2K 2K 64194K 3 0 0 512
soname 1 1K 1K 64194K 3940726 0 0 16,128
pcb 45 5K 20K 64194K 639691 0 0 16,32,64,2K
BIO buffer 100 102K 1048K 64194K 9950 0 0 512,1K,2K
vfscache 14044 1007K 1007K 64194K 17344 0 0 64,128,128K
cluster_save buffer 0 0K 1K 64194K 694 0 0 32,64,128
mount 4 2K 2K 64194K 6 0 0 16,128,512
vnodes 24 6K 6K 64194K 327 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
BPF 3 1K 1K 64194K 3 0 0 32
ifaddr 15 2K 2K 64194K 15 0 0 32,64,128,256
ether_multi 7 1K 1K 64194K 7 0 0 16,32,64
routetbl 61 9K 10295K 64194K 585667 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
in_multi 2 1K 1K 64194K 2 0 0 32
tseg_qent 0 0K 5K 64194K 212819 0 0 32
NFS daemon 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 256
NQNFS Lease 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 1K
NFS hash 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K
p1003.1b 1 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 16
FFS node 13187 3297K 3297K 64194K 14242 0 0 256
UFS ihash 1 64K 64K 64194K 1 0 0 64K
UFS mount 9 20K 20K 64194K 9 0 0 512,2K,8K
VM pgdata 1 128K 128K 64194K 1 0 0 128K
ZONE 18 3K 3K 64194K 18 0 0 128
isadev 11 1K 1K 64194K 11 0 0 64
ATA generic 0 1K 1K 64194K 1 0 0 512
AD driver 2 2K 2K 64194K 204988 0 0 64,1K
devbuf 82 207K 207K 64194K 114 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K,32K
mbuf 1 28K 28K 64194K 1 0 0 32K
memdesc 1 4K 4K 64194K 1 0 0 4K
isa_devlist 0 0K 2K 64194K 19 0 0 16,512,1K
atkbddev 2 1K 1K 64194K 2 0 0 16
Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests
5472K 10077K 11398562
Now to probably complicate things more, I replaced the EEpro card with
a DEC 21143 based board using the dc driver, and with that card the
machine dies a little less often, but when it does the machine usually
hangs hard, or reboots. Catching the console before it's totally dead,
I can see the following message scrolling on the screen:
dc0: watchdog timeout
Different than the error from the EEpro card, but still network related,
so again I dumped the above information for comparison, and here it is:
ifconfig:
dc0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> mtu 1500
inet 207.114.4.35 netmask 0xfffffff0 broadcast 207.114.4.47
inet 207.114.4.36 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.36
inet 207.114.4.45 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.45
inet 207.114.4.46 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 207.114.4.46
ether 00:c0:f0:3b:a7:eb
media: autoselect (100baseTX <full-duplex>) status: active
supported media: autoselect 100baseTX <full-duplex> 100baseTX 10baseT/UTP <full-duplex> 10baseT/UTP none
netstat -m:
7526/15744/81920 mbufs in use (current/peak/max):
6064 mbufs allocated to data
1462 mbufs allocated to packet headers
3948/7874/20480 mbuf clusters in use (current/peak/max)
17716 Kbytes allocated to network (49% in use)
0 requests for memory denied
0 requests for memory delayed
0 calls to protocol drain routines
vmstat -m:
Memory statistics by bucket size
Size In Use Free Requests HighWater Couldfree
16 296 984 4706660 0 1280
32 3254 21706 599940 0 640
64 14657 3199 1669347 0 320
128 1099 53 15587 0 160
256 16537 14743 357609 0 80
512 14 2 30928 0 40
1K 33 743 13704 0 20
2K 13 5 40824 0 10
4K 13 2 348612 0 5
8K 2 4 1255714 0 5
16K 10 0 2479452 0 5
32K 1 0 1485462 0 5
64K 4 0 4 0 5
128K 3 0 3 0 5
256K 1 0 1 0 5
Memory usage type by bucket size
Size Type(s)
16 MD disk, kld, proc-args, atexit, temp, sysctl, bus, rman, soname,
pcb, mount, vnodes, ether_multi, routetbl, p1003.1b, devbuf,
isa_devlist, atkbddev
32 kld, sigio, proc-args, temp, pgrp, proc, subproc, sysctl, bus,
eventhandler, SWAP, pcb, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, BPF, ifaddr,
ether_multi, routetbl, in_multi, tseg_qent, newblk, bmsafemap,
indirdep, freefrag, freefile, diradd, dirrem, devbuf
64 file, proc-args, lockf, temp, session, subproc, bus, eventhandler,
rman, pcb, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, vnodes, ifaddr,
ether_multi, routetbl, pagedep, allocdirect, allocindir, isadev,
AD driver
128 ppbusdev, kld, timecounter, dev_t, proc-args, zombie, temp, cred,
bus, ttys, soname, vfscache, cluster_save buffer, mount, vnodes,
ifaddr, routetbl, inodedep, freeblks, ZONE, devbuf
256 file desc, proc-args, temp, subproc, bus, ttys, vnodes, ifaddr,
routetbl, NFS daemon, newblk, FFS node, devbuf
512 kld, file desc, temp, bus, ioctlops, ptys, BIO buffer, mount,
UFS mount, ATA generic, devbuf, isa_devlist
1K MD disk, kld, file desc, temp, proc, bus, ioctlops, BIO buffer,
NQNFS Lease, AD driver, devbuf, isa_devlist
2K file desc, temp, bus, pcb, BIO buffer, UFS mount, devbuf
4K kld, file desc, temp, proc, devbuf, memdesc
8K kld, file desc, temp, indirdep, UFS mount
16K file desc, temp, pagedep, devbuf
32K temp, mbuf
64K ISOFS mount, NFS hash, inodedep, UFS ihash
128K temp, vfscache, VM pgdata
256K SWAP
Memory statistics by type Type Kern
Type InUse MemUse HighUse Limit Requests Limit Limit Size(s)
MD disk 2 2K 2K 64189K 2 0 0 16,1K
ppbusdev 3 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 128
ISOFS mount 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K
kld 10 11K 16K 64189K 53 0 0 16,32,128,512,1K,4K,8K
timecounter 10 2K 2K 64189K 10 0 0 128
dev_t 540 68K 68K 64189K 540 0 0 128
file desc 37 30K 36K 64189K 7923 0 0 256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K
file 174 11K 208K 64189K 1332169 0 0 64
sigio 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 32
proc-args 24 2K 2K 64189K 6468 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
zombie 0 0K 1K 64189K 7875 0 0 128
atexit 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 16
lockf 1 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 64
temp 169 113K 138K 64189K 5648678 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,8K,16K,32K,128K
pgrp 23 1K 1K 64189K 1400 0 0 32
session 21 2K 2K 64189K 1115 0 0 64
proc 7 10K 10K 64189K 7 0 0 32,1K,4K
subproc 77 7K 9K 64189K 17254 0 0 32,64,256
cred 9 2K 2K 64189K 1264 0 0 128
sysctl 0 0K 1K 64189K 738 0 0 16,32
bus 367 31K 31K 64189K 503 0 0 16,32,64,128,256,512,1K,2K
eventhandler 11 1K 1K 64189K 11 0 0 32,64
SWAP 2 141K 141K 64189K 2 0 0 32,256K
ioctlops 0 0K 1K 64189K 5 0 0 512,1K
rman 50 3K 3K 64189K 79 0 0 16,64
ttys 410 53K 58K 64189K 1307 0 0 128,256
ptys 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 512
soname 1 1K 1K 64189K 3967614 0 0 16,128
pcb 50 5K 19K 64189K 738447 0 0 16,32,64,2K
BIO buffer 26 28K 769K 64189K 12308 0 0 512,1K,2K
vfscache 14194 1016K 1016K 64189K 18278 0 0 64,128,128K
cluster_save buffer 0 0K 1K 64189K 981 0 0 32,64,128
mount 4 2K 2K 64189K 6 0 0 16,128,512
vnodes 24 6K 6K 64189K 327 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
BPF 3 1K 1K 64189K 3 0 0 32
ifaddr 16 2K 2K 64189K 16 0 0 32,64,128,256
ether_multi 7 1K 1K 64189K 7 0 0 16,32,64
routetbl 6193 871K 6957K 64189K 663076 0 0 16,32,64,128,256
in_multi 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 32
tseg_qent 0 0K 2K 64189K 220376 0 0 32
NFS daemon 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 256
NQNFS Lease 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 1K
NFS hash 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K
p1003.1b 1 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 16
pagedep 2 17K 17K 64189K 32 0 0 64,16K
inodedep 4 65K 68K 64189K 2813 0 0 128,64K
newblk 1 1K 1K 64189K 23834 0 0 32,256
bmsafemap 3 1K 1K 64189K 4690 0 0 32
allocdirect 1 1K 2K 64189K 8555 0 0 64
indirdep 1 1K 25K 64189K 2822 0 0 32,8K
allocindir 1 1K 26K 64189K 15278 0 0 64
freefrag 0 0K 4K 64189K 3464 0 0 32
freeblks 0 0K 4K 64189K 1520 0 0 128
freefile 0 0K 1K 64189K 40 0 0 32
diradd 2 1K 1K 64189K 61 0 0 32
dirrem 0 0K 1K 64189K 64 0 0 32
FFS node 13320 3330K 3331K 64189K 14373 0 0 256
UFS ihash 1 64K 64K 64189K 1 0 0 64K
UFS mount 9 20K 20K 64189K 9 0 0 512,2K,8K
VM pgdata 1 128K 128K 64189K 1 0 0 128K
ZONE 18 3K 3K 64189K 18 0 0 128
isadev 11 1K 1K 64189K 11 0 0 64
ATA generic 0 1K 1K 64189K 1 0 0 512
AD driver 1 1K 2K 64189K 277266 0 0 64,1K
devbuf 81 175K 175K 64189K 113 0 0 16,32,128,256,512,1K,2K,4K,16K
mbuf 1 28K 28K 64189K 1 0 0 32K
memdesc 1 4K 4K 64189K 1 0 0 4K
isa_devlist 0 0K 2K 64189K 18 0 0 16,512,1K
atkbddev 2 1K 1K 64189K 2 0 0 16
Memory Totals: In Use Free Requests
6372K 5380K 13003847
All of the above stats were taken while the network card was spitting out
errors prior to performing a reboot which brings the box back online. I
also tried unplugging the nic and plugging it back in without out any
change. I also over time have replaced everything in the box except the
case, but still the problem persists, and in fact took the old hardware
and built a different machine that works fine. So something related to
the heavy use by the IRC programs is killing this thing almost daily, and
I am at a loss as to what.
If you or anyone here on the list has any ideas, I would sure love to
hear them, as it would be nice to get to the bottom of this issue...
---
Howard Leadmon - howardl@abs.net - http://www.abs.net
ABSnet Internet Services - Phone: 410-361-8160 - FAX: 410-361-8162
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 0:48:23 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:48:13 +0200
From: Cejka Rudolf <cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
Message-ID: <20000407094813.A51749@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>
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In-Reply-To: <no.id>; from obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 06:08:33PM -0700
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David O'Brien wrote (2000/04/05):
> Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
I want to mirror it (on ftp.cz.FreeBSD.org), but it looks as a complete
mirrored tree with some added files. In this case it is almost impossible
to mirror it - connectivity is very bad, I do not have another 30 GB disk
and I don't want to have two similar full FreeBSD trees where it is hard
to determine differences.
Please, does anybody know how big is repository on ftp.internat.FreeBSD.org?
It would be great if FreeBSD team create some master FreeBSD-international
site, where just only changed or added files will be put (< 10 GB).
In this case I will be able to immediately mirror it regardless of the
connectivity.
--
Rudolf Cejka (cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz; http://www.fee.vutbr.cz/~cejkar)
Brno University of Technology, Faculty of El. Engineering and Comp. Science
Bozetechova 2, 612 66 Brno, Czech Republic
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 1:38: 8 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21])
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 01:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: Cejka Rudolf <cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, markm@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-Reply-To: <20000407094813.A51749@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>
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On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Cejka Rudolf wrote:
> David O'Brien wrote (2000/04/05):
> > Access to ftp.internat.freebsd.org from the USA (and presumably
> > elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> > server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> > ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
>
> I want to mirror it (on ftp.cz.FreeBSD.org), but it looks as a complete
> mirrored tree with some added files. In this case it is almost impossible
> to mirror it - connectivity is very bad, I do not have another 30 GB disk
> and I don't want to have two similar full FreeBSD trees where it is hard
> to determine differences.
>
> Please, does anybody know how big is repository on ftp.internat.FreeBSD.org?
Mark Murray would know :-)
I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which
doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits
are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for
posterity)
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 2:52: 8 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58])
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From: John Hay <jhay@mikom.csir.co.za>
Message-Id: <200004070944.LAA54684@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za>
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-Reply-To: <20000406215318.A31205@cicely8.cicely.de> from Bernd Walter at "Apr 6, 2000 09:53:18 pm"
To: ticso@cicely.de (Bernd Walter)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:44:42 +0200 (SAT)
Cc: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG (David O'Brien),
jesper@skriver.dk (Jesper Skriver), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
security@FreeBSD.ORG
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> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:05:48PM -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 02:16:15PM +0200, Jesper Skriver wrote:
> > > > >elsewhere) is an abomination. Isn't there *anyone* with an permanate FTP
> > > > >server that could officially mirror the crypto bits from
> > > > >ftp.internat.freebsd.org?
> > >
> > > If the amount of data is not huge, we can put it on ftp.dk.FreeBSD.org
> >
> > I have no idea how big the collection is -- I could just finally login,
> > but an ``ls'' timed out.
>
> I found out that not using passive mode works.
Oops, that was my fault. Somewhere in all the wu-ftpd upgrades the ports
that the CSIR firewall allowed and what wu-ftpd tried to use for passive
ftp got out of sync. Should be fixed now.
At the moment our (the CSIR's) internet link is VERY saturated during
working hours (we are in SA so GMT+2). If you can try after hours, you
should have better luck. The people responsible for our network are
playing with a PacketShaper from Packeteer to see if that will help,
but at the moment it seems that ftp response is worse than ever. I'm
trying to work with them to see if we can get it better.
BTW. Wes Peters' idea of a boat is way cheaper than what we pay for
our 1Mbit/s link here. :-)
John
--
John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 3:16:20 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:16:13 -0400
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20000407061613.A29364@sasami.jurai.net>
References: <200004070313.MAA03369@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> <Pine.LNX.4.20.0004062216260.18844-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 10:18:08PM -0700:
> On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote:
>
> > Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different
> > issue which, I think, should be discussed separately.
>
> I agree with this completely. The question is, where?
I suggest starting a discussion on that topic in
freebsd-i18n as soon as it's created.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:13:22 -0400
From: Anatoly Vorobey <mellon@pobox.com>
To: Kazutaka YOKOTA <yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Unicode on FreeBSD
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I'm glad we are discussing specific technical issues now. Perhaps
we should move this discussion to freebsd-i18n once it's created?
You, Kazutaka YOKOTA, were spotted writing this on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:13:14PM +0900:
>
> >I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the
> >vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes:
> >
> >a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather
> >than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should
> >greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications
> >that desire so obtain Unicode input directly;
>
> As you are well aware, the keyboard driver (and keyboard related part
> of syscons has no knowledge about the character code generated via the
> keymap. Thus, we will need little or no modification to handle
> Unicode-based keymaps.
Well, new code must be written to translate Unicode values produced by
the (modified) keyboard driver back into 8bit for normal userland
applications. This code would use the same encoding table that syscons
would use to translate 8bit output to Unicode before displaying it.
Moreover, a way should be provided for userland applications to receive
Unicode input directly should they want that. One solution is
to simply add another mode (ks_mode member of atkbd_state structure)
which would return Unicode codes directly.
> >b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent
> >chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts,
> >get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow
> >creation of unified font files describing many languages at once.
>
> Um, well, we may be able to use a unified font file for many
> languages. But, do not expect that we will be able to create a single
> font file which will be suitable for ALL languages.
You are right. I won't expect that.
> >c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in
> >text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover,
>
> The pcvt driver already uses 512 chars.
True text modes create an additional problem to consider: given some
(Unicode) font files loaded into kernel, and a limited supply (512 minus
128) of available char slots, which glyphs should be loaded into the
VGA font table? In other words, which glyphs are more important than
the others? One solution is to let userland dictate this, but this isn't
completely satisfying, because then userland has two additional control
structures now to provide for the kernel: encoding table for 8bit<-->Unicode
translation and mapping table for Unicode->512chars translation, the latter
being also irrelevant for the raster modes.
I'll look into how Linux people handled this issue.
> >in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with
> >fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed
> >at once.
>
> If we intend to display any languages at once in the console, the
> raster mode is the only solution. I agree. But, we need a fair
> amount of knowledge about the language/script we are dealing with, in
> order to display its text correctly.
Let's try to enumerate the issues we will run into here. After all a
new font file format depends crucially on that. We need to reach a
conclusion on what is realistic and what isn't to provide on a
fixed-width console. For instance, I would love to be able to handle
bidirectional output and Hebrew diacritics, but I am not sure at all
this is realistic to provide.
> >UTF-8 may play a role of
> >one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way
> >to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired.
>
> Multilingual text processing in the userland is a completely different
> issue which, I think, should be discussed separately.
I agree, but I'm rather talking here about allowing (future) userland
multilingual processing, rather than what and how it should be done.
What I mean here is that the encoding table format should be more flexible
than "one byte <-->one UCS-2 code" because that will not allow
simple and easy UTF-8 translation in the future, should we want that.
> We need more discussion to design a reasoble implementation
> (compromise :-) which does not make lives of some people difficult by
> imposing a single rigid scheme.
Great, let's have this discussion right here and now ;)
> Unicode, as it stands now, does not seem to be THE solution which
> addresses all the issues/problems/complexities of the languages in the
> world... It can be viewed/used as a tool, though.
I agree with that completely.
--
Anatoly Vorobey,
mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6: 2:54 2000
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From: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 07:46:24 -0500
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Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation analagous
to bad sectors on a
hard drive? Isn't this similar, at least in theory, to remapping dead
sectors and continuing to
use the drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the
mapping instead of the
OS)
Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just curious as to
WHY so many people
think this is a "bad idea"
-=bob=-
Warner Losh <imp@village.org>@FreeBSD.ORG on 04/06/2000 04:58:59 PM
Sent by: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
To: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick
writes:
: Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad
memory, replace it, don't work around it.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:31:16 2000
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From: "Koster, K.J." <K.J.Koster@kpn.com>
Subject: RE: bad memory patch?
To: "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" <Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com>
Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list' <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
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>
> Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just
> curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea"
>
I can think of four things real quick:
1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper
error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that
memory is a disk does not hold for long.
2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RAM
and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken,
you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not
be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and
mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security.
2) Working around bad blocks in disks is a stop-gap measure, but a
neccessary evil. You need it to be able to limp along until it is 9:00 am
Monday morning and the shops open for you to buy a new disk. (Head crashes
are chiefly caused by the late saturday *click* of the lock on the doors of
CompUSA). With RAM, that situation does not occur, because there is no user
data in RAM. You can rip a memory module out of any old server that's lying
around and get the machine back on line in minutes. You can halve the number
of memory modules in a server, and it will run as before (if a little
slower).
3) Claiming that FreeBSD will run fine on bad hardware is asking for
trouble. Use your imagination. Think "screwdriver".
Kees Jan
PS. If you have only a single memory module in your box, well, sorry. Now
you know why I buy two. :-)
==============================================
You are only young once,
but you can stay immature all your life
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:36:54 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200
From: Wilko Bulte <wkb@chello.nl>
To: "Koster, K.J." <K.J.Koster@kpn.com>
Cc: "'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" <Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com>,
"'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
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In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E452201313A80@l04.research.kpn.com>; from K.J.Koster@kpn.com on Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100
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On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote:
> >
> > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just
> > curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea"
> >
> I can think of four things real quick:
>
> 1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper
> error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that
> memory is a disk does not hold for long.
>
> 2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RAM
> and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken,
> you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not
> be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and
> mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security.
And Real Systems [tm] use ECC memory. ;-)
--
Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org
http://www.tcja.nl
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 6:47:24 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 08:44:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Sconiers <jrs@enteract.com>
To: Mourad Lakhdar <992C396651@stud.alakhawayn.ma>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: need help
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Type [enter]
You should then be at a "#" sign
Type " fsck -y "
when it gets done Type 'exit'
It should continue booting.
> hi :
> when loading the kernel , i have the following error :
> **************************************************
> the following file system had an unnexpected inconsistency:
> /dev/rwd0s1e(/var)
> > file system failed help!
> >try to enter the full path shell or --------
> *************************************************
> how to resolve this problem , to enter the freebsd interface, and complete
> the kernel load
> best regards,
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 7:21:46 2000
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Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
In-Reply-To: <OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com> from "Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com" at "Apr 7, 0 07:46:24 am"
To: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 18:21:36 +0400 (MSD)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Aleksandr A.Babaylov" <babolo@links.ru>
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Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes:
> Maybe I'm mis-understanding something,
> but isn't this situation analagous to bad sectors
> on a hard drive?
Yes it is not.
> Isn't this similar, at least in theory, to remapping dead
> sectors and continuing to use the drive?
> (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the
> mapping instead of the OS)
Difference is in fault model.
hard drive surface fault can only grows to some more bits,
which usually resides in the same sector or affect
low quantity of another sectors.
Every DRAM bit fault affect common for many bits circuitry
first before anoter bit fault occur.
And remember, such a fault affect mostly far bits
(in another words and pages)
> Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just curious as to
> WHY so many people
> think this is a "bad idea"
> -=bob=-
> Warner Losh <imp@village.org>@FreeBSD.ORG on 04/06/2000 04:58:59 PM
>
> To: J McKitrick <jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org>
>
> Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
>
> In message <20000406164114.B29984@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> J McKitrick
> writes:
> : Sounds like sometheing we could use, eh?
> I don't think so. Strikes me a a hugely *BAD* idea. If you have bad
> memory, replace it, don't work around it.
PS sorry bad English
--
@BABOLO http://links.ru/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:18:15 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 19:17:11 +0400 (MSD)
From: "Alexander V. Tischenko" <flash@intech.hway.ru>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Strange issue with directed broadcasts
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Hello Hackers,
Recently i stumbled accross strange security feature with ip_input().
The task i was performing required usage of net directed broadcasts
(samba, remote announce, freebsds as routers).
Those broadcasts never reached their subnets. I understand that it is
a security feature nowerdays :) , but probably router should have a
configurable mechanism (as ciscos for example) to forward or not
such beasts into their attached net. The code in question is around
lines 498 of ip_input.c version 1.131. No attempt is made to check
the interface the packet came in nor provisions for duplication.
As a result, clients and servers behind such router never see
announcements from remote, unless they reside on the router itself.
(Yes, i have to use direct ip non-broadcast announcements now, but
would prefer broadcasts for some reasons :)
My solution would be to check rcvif vs ia_ifp and accept the packet
as 'ours' only if those ifs are the same.
Note, that if we will not accept the packet, but forward it instead,
if will get back to us - feature of ethernet.
Any solutions, advice, reasons why not ?
Thank you in advance,
Alexander V. Tischenko
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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7, Miusskaya sq., Moscow, 125047 Russia | Fax: +7 095 978-47-37
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:23:20 2000
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Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
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Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>
> Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and
> io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems
> with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however...
>
> >
> > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
> > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
>
> Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on
> chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage.
>
That's the point!
Why not a different approach ?
Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do
just feel tasks, like:
IPC: managing and routing messages.
Process scheduling.
First level interrupt handling.
All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle
system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of
course, device drivers programs.
This design, would not let a system crash due to device drivers problems
or even bad hardware desgin.
What all you think about that ?
--
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From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" <myevmenkin@att.com>
To: "'Gustavo V G C Rios'" <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:28:42 -0400
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[...]
> > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
> > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
> >
> > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on
> > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage.
> >
>
[...]
> This design, would not let a system crash due to device
> drivers problems
> or even bad hardware desgin.
>
> What all you think about that ?
only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
Thanks,
emax
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:31:33 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 11:30:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Wayne Culver <culverk@wam.umd.edu>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Cc: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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I don't think that's quite true. I've seen microkernels crash because of
bad drivers. I think no matter what, even in a microkernel the drivers
have to interface directly to the kernel. I could be wrong but I thought
that in a microkernel, drivers were loaded as kernel modules.
=================================================================
| Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. |
| Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 |
| and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr |
| The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) |
| College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/|
=================================================================
On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> >
> > Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and
> > io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems
> > with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however...
> >
> > >
> > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
> > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
> >
> > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on
> > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage.
> >
>
> That's the point!
> Why not a different approach ?
> Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do
> just feel tasks, like:
>
> IPC: managing and routing messages.
> Process scheduling.
> First level interrupt handling.
>
>
> All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle
> system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of
> course, device drivers programs.
>
> This design, would not let a system crash due to device drivers problems
> or even bad hardware desgin.
>
> What all you think about that ?
>
>
> --
> If you're happy, you're successful.
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>
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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:33:02 +0000
From: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
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To: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" <myevmenkin@att.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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"Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote:
> only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
>
> Thanks,
> emax
Excuse me gentleman, who said that ?
Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html
You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular
design).
The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http
server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done?
This OS uses microkernel arch.
Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch.
Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD?
PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that.
--
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 8:57:13 2000
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To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
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Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br>
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Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> Why not starting a microkernel arch?
IMHO the microkernel is the emperor's new clothes (so is OOP, but that,
I suspect, I won't
get quite so much agreement on).
Context switching has been mentioned, but in addition to that, the real
problem is that it
really doesn't change anything. It may somewhat simplify a non-critical
driver like a serial
port or a mouse or the like, but if a SCSI HBA driver crashes, it's
likely going to make
life for the microkernel very hairy, just like it would a full kernel.
And a driver bug can cause the hardware to wedge the machine whether the
driver is in
protected or user mode too.
Most people who I talk to who bring up microkernel do it because they
see the process of compiling
a FreeBSD kernel and think that microkernels are somehow the opposite of
that. If that's the
case, they should believe that Solaris is a microkernel, which it
patently is not.
NT comes closer, with its rings of protection, but you can hardly call
that a picture of
stabiliy.
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Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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On Fri, 7 Apr 2000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> What all you think about that ?
I think you need to do a literature search for, oh, say, six months and
get back to us. You'll need to read ca. 256-512 or so articles. I'm not
kidding. You should start reading papers from the 1960s.
And oh yes, don't ignore Plan 9 just because it doesn't fit a convenient
category. Also, go ahead and look at NT, but put it in the "successful
marketing covering for bad implementation" column.
ron
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 9: 4:33 2000
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Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
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Nick Sayer wrote:
>
> Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
>
> > Why not starting a microkernel arch?
>
> IMHO the microkernel is the emperor's new clothes (so is OOP, but that,
> I suspect, I won't
> get quite so much agreement on).
>
> Context switching has been mentioned, but in addition to that, the real
> problem is that it
> really doesn't change anything. It may somewhat simplify a non-critical
> driver like a serial
> port or a mouse or the like, but if a SCSI HBA driver crashes, it's
> likely going to make
> life for the microkernel very hairy, just like it would a full kernel.
>
> And a driver bug can cause the hardware to wedge the machine whether the
> driver is in
> protected or user mode too.
>
> Most people who I talk to who bring up microkernel do it because they
> see the process of compiling
> a FreeBSD kernel and think that microkernels are somehow the opposite of
> that. If that's the
> case, they should believe that Solaris is a microkernel, which it
> patently is not.
>
> NT comes closer, with its rings of protection, but you can hardly call
> that a picture of
> stabiliy.
Yeah! I had started to study OS (UNIX Internals: the new frontiers)
internals. That book tell the same about microkernel, but when i
downloaded QNX demo disk i got confused.
If microkernel has such a drawnbacks, why QNX is so fast and reliable?
Should you download it too, and realize what i mean.
Thanks a lot for the patience.
PS: I am just a beginner, so, don't take me wrong. The fact is that i am
really confused about what books say about microkernel and what in that
single demo floppy. I would be really glad to have some here to kindly
clarify it to me.
--
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From: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" <myevmenkin@att.com>
To: "'Gustavo V G C Rios'" <kernel@tdnet.com.br>
Cc: "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: RE: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:10:56 -0400
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[...]
> > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
> >
> Excuse me gentleman, who said that ?
Well, Intel does :)
> Take time to visit this site:
> http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html
I know this OS. It looks great. Perhaps, it is a good choice for embeded OS.
A good OS design could help to reduce context switch overhead.
Just to give you some examples of context switching overhead,
please take a look at
http://www.atnf.csiro.au/~rgooch/benchmarks/linux-scheduler.html
Thanks,
emax
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Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
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Not necessarily a bad idea, but certainly incomplete. Being able to
detect and run with bad RAM is only about halfway there. The other half
is being able to remove and replace the bad RAM without taking the
machine down. Like some of the old mainframes (ie TOPS-10, I think).
This not only needs quite a bit more hardware support, but the software
also has to be able to shuffle everything else out of the bad
DIMM/SIMM/thunk into good memory before it's pulled and replaced.
If you have to take the machine down anyway to replace the bad RAM once
it's detected, you may as well just use a good ECC design instead.
-- Parag Patel
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freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br>
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Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
>
> Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> >
> > Some archs (such as i386) allow the OS to set page protections and
> > io permission bitmaps that effectively can pretect against problems
> > with drivers touching incorrect IO ranges, however...
> >
> > >
> > > Worse yet: What about hardware buggy devices?
> > > This could case the entiry system to crash, isn't it ?
> >
> > Yes, incorrectly programmed hardware either by firmware (on
> > chip/board) or by drivers can cause crashes and hardware damage.
> >
>
> That's the point!
> Why not a different approach ?
> Why not starting a microkernel arch? The microkernel would basically do
> just feel tasks, like:
Great idea, but that's not what FreeBSD is about. I suggest heading
for your favorite search engine and looking up "Flux OS" and "Spring
OS".
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15: 5:21 2000
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To: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 07:46:24 CDT."
<OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com>
References: <OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:04:23 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com> Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes:
: Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation
: analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at
: least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the
: drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the
: mapping instead of the OS)
It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it
is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world,
these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless
pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside
of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard.
Second, in most modern memory, the general concensus is that if you
have once cell that it is bad, others are sure to follow. Or that
they have already followed and are still mostly working because they
are only slightly out of spec. It is much harder to know with any
degree of certainty the degree to which you can trust a memory stick
with even one bad cell.
Pretending to be able to do things which you aren't really doing is
bad. It will lead to a lot of false negatives, which is why it is
such an appolingly bad idea.
With disk drives, the situation is easier. Either the sector writes
or it doesn't. It is much rarer that the sector will be mostly good
and only occasionally bad, although stories of such no doubt exist.
In most modern drives, it isn't an issue anyway as the bad maps are
kept around and bad block removal is automatically done at a layer
below the OS.
Warner
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To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Cc: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:18:17 -0000."
<38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br>
References: <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:05:51 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> Gustavo V G C Rios writes:
: All other tasks would run in like any other user process, like a fyle
: system daemon, process daemon , internet daemon (not inetd), and, of
: course, device drivers programs.
This still won't stop you from wedging the machine absoltely solid by
programming a chip on the PCI bus in a bad way which hangs the PCI
bus.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:19:32 2000
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Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 15:19:07 -0700
From: Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
Message-ID: <20000407151907.A1185@orion.ac.hmc.edu>
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On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:04:23PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message <OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com> Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes:
> : Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation
> : analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at
> : least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the
> : drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the
> : mapping instead of the OS)
>
> It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it
> is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world,
> these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless
> pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside
> of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard.
This can be truly evil. For instance, I was at a Myricom BOF at SC99
and they said they had shipped a batch of cards (which they were
replacing that their expense) that had bad static RAM chips with one bit
(the exact same one on most of them) which would sometimes flip under
just the right stress. I believe the finaly built a test case that
could trigger the error within a couple of days knowing exactly where it
was and having some idea what caused it.
The key to remember with memory is that DRAM is not the nice little
digital gate we like to think it is. It's a big ugly analog mess
and has all sorts of boundry condititions and idea digital system
wouldn't have.
-- Brooks
--
Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:39:23 2000
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Ordering in HARDWARE.TXT
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 16:38:23 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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What's the proper ordering for the hardware listed in HARDWARE.TXT?
What's the right way to list drivers that are generally only available
on embedded hardware (eg the crystal semiconductor 89x0 based hardware
isn't listed in the supported section, even though it appears on many
embedded boards, and also some ancient isa cards).
There's gotta be a better way to do this.
Warner
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 15:42:49 2000
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From: Wilko Bulte <wkb@chello.nl>
To: Brooks Davis <brooks@one-eyed-alien.net>
Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com,
hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
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On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:19:07PM -0700, Brooks Davis wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 04:04:23PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > In message <OF2F5C4FC5.C68B571C-ON862568BA.0045E942@midata.com> Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com writes:
> > : Maybe I'm mis-understanding something, but isn't this situation
> > : analagous to bad sectors on a hard drive? Isn't this similar, at
> > : least in theory, to remapping dead sectors and continuing to use the
> > : drive? (except that the disk's onboard controller handles the
> > : mapping instead of the OS)
> >
> > It is not analagous to the bad sectors on the hard drive. First, it
> > is not always possible to detect a bad memory cell. In today's world,
> > these cells are often bad only some of the time. They work unless
> > pushed really hard in strange patters. They are just barely outside
> > of spec, and usually work. This makes their detection hard.
>
> This can be truly evil. For instance, I was at a Myricom BOF at SC99
> and they said they had shipped a batch of cards (which they were
> replacing that their expense) that had bad static RAM chips with one bit
> (the exact same one on most of them) which would sometimes flip under
> just the right stress. I believe the finaly built a test case that
> could trigger the error within a couple of days knowing exactly where it
> was and having some idea what caused it.
>
> The key to remember with memory is that DRAM is not the nice little
> digital gate we like to think it is. It's a big ugly analog mess
> and has all sorts of boundry condititions and idea digital system
> wouldn't have.
Right. In a former life I was part of a team that spent a couple of months
tracking down mysterious DRAM errors. In our case we had parity checking on
the machine. In the end our dear memory vendor said: "Well, you know, we
might have found it. We had some mask alignment problems in manufacturing".
Until then they always denied it was a chip problem.
By then we knew that already, weekcode 37 from Hitachi was crap. Hitachi
DRAM still gives me a weird feeling when I see it ;-)
--
Wilko Bulte Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org
http://www.tcja.nl
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16: 6:22 2000
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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:09:27 -0400
From: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
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To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
References: <E598F159668DD311B9C700902799EAF44733C4@njb140po01.ems.att.com> <38EDD57E.56A2681B@tdnet.com.br>
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Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote:
>
> > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > emax
>
> Excuse me gentleman, who said that ?
> Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html
>
> You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular
> design).
> The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http
> server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done?
>
> This OS uses microkernel arch.
> Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch.
>
> Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD?
>
> PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that.
Ugh...isn't it obvious by now that this is a shameless pitch for QNX...
It is sad that people here actually respond to this sort of thing.
"How come you guys are not like Linux?" questions should have
developed some tolerance in you..
QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD
and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would not be
FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer...
I am sure some people somwhere work on marrying microkernels and bsd systems
and in fact isn't this what Darwin is all about? If you like it - there is probably a
darwin mailing list.
--Ugen
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:15:18 2000
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To: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: David Holloway <davidhol@windriver.com>
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 19:09:27 EDT."
<38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com>
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In message <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com>, Ugen Antsilevitch writes:
>
>
>Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
>
>> "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote:
>>
>> > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > emax
>>
>> Excuse me gentleman, who said that ?
>> Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html
>>
>> You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular
>> design).
>> The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http
>> server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done?
>>
>> This OS uses microkernel arch.
>> Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch.
>>
>> Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD?
>>
>> PS: I never seen anything fast and reliable like that.
>
>Ugh...isn't it obvious by now that this is a shameless pitch for QNX...
>It is sad that people here actually respond to this sort of thing.
>"How come you guys are not like Linux?" questions should have
>developed some tolerance in you..
>
>QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD
>and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would no
>t be
>FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer...
>
>I am sure some people somwhere work on marrying microkernels and bsd systems
>and in fact isn't this what Darwin is all about? If you like it - there is pro
>bably a
>darwin mailing list.
>--Ugen
>
Yeah I wouldn't want to have to retaliate with
shameless plugs of vxWorks.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:19:28 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 01:19:20 +0200
From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" <karsten@rohrbach.de>
To: Jesper Skriver <jesper@skriver.dk>
Cc: Patrick Gardella <patrick@whetstonelogic.com>,
Lloyd Rennie <lloyd@vbc.net>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Mirror requirements
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References: <Pine.BSF.4.05.10003301501300.18605-100000@brunel.uk1.vbc.net> <38E367E2.2FC11B7C@whetstonelogic.com> <20000330171143.A48758@skriver.dk>
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rohrbach@filepile:/ftp/.vol/vol1$ du -sk FreeBSD
22975903 FreeBSD
rohrbach@filepile:/ftp/.vol/vol1$ date
Sat Apr 8 01:17:30 CEST 2000
...eek!
/k
Jesper Skriver(jesper@skriver.dk)@Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 05:11:43PM +0200:
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2000 at 09:42:42AM -0500, Patrick Gardella wrote:
> > Lloyd Rennie wrote:
> > >
> > > I sent this to -questions, but have received no reply. Sorry to bug
> > > y'all, but...
> > >
> > > What are the hardware and bandwidth requirements to maintain a full
> > > FreeBSD mirror site?
> >
> > Having asked this before, I can try to answer it...
> >
> > Hardware: Disk space to hold the parts you want to mirror. Are you
> > looking to be just an FTP mirror, a WWW mirror (about 8 megs), a CVSUP
> > mirror, or some combination of all of these? I would say that a safe
> > bet would be an 8 gig HD for all of them.
>
> I keep a partial ftp mirror, and it barely fits 20 GB ...
>
>
> /Jesper
>
> --
> Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456
> Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks)
> Private: Geek @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-)
>
> One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them,
> One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
--
> Hackers do it with all sorts of characters.
http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de
(NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 16:29: 4 2000
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From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" <karsten@rohrbach.de>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: Cejka Rudolf <cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
markm@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
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Kris Kennaway(kris@FreeBSD.ORG)@Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 01:38:05AM -0700:
>
> Mark Murray would know :-)
>
> I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which
> doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits
> are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for
> posterity)
>
<covering_in_asbestos>
mirroring of all that stuff should be migrated to rsync(1), since this
implicitly defines (in terms of standard archive'/distribution handling)
a structured "package" like layout, so we would have several collections
(freebsd-ftp/ freebsd-www/ freebsd-crypto-US/ freebsd-crypto-nonUS/ and
so on...)
thus, it would be easier to set up a mirror, the paths would be more
standard, the updates would be better in sync (since rsync really does a
good job in not just only checking if a file has a new datestamp) and
the world would be a bit better ;-)
</covering_in_asbestos>
opinions?
/k
--
> If you think sex is a pain in the ass, try a different position.
http://www.webmonster.de http://www.apache.de http://www.splatterworld.de
(NIC-HDL KR433/KR11-RIPE)
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 17: 7:59 2000
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Message-Id: <200004080007.UAA51276@cs.rpi.edu>
To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org,
vladimir-bsd-stable@math.uic.edu, Doug@gorean.org,
gallatin@cs.duke.edu, dillon@backplane.com
Subject: lockd-0.2 released!
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:07:40 -0400
From: "David E. Cross" <crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
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I apologize profusely for the delay of this, but lockd-0.2 is out.
The URL is: http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd/FreeBSD/lockd-0.2.tar.gz
A couple of notes on this release:
1) the statd hooks to lockd are not yet done (or started)
2) you need a patched libc (for XDR64 types). I have included the xdr patch
as part of this release, you need to do the following to apply it:
> cd /usr/src/lib/libc/xdr
> patch </path/to/lockd-0.2/xdr.diff
(I hope this to make it into the base RSN)
3) you then need to rebuild and reinstall libc
4) build the lockd implementation and have fun
5) this does not add the code to FreeBSD's kernel to request the NFS locks
(that is a job for people more skilled than I ;)
This has been tested with the test-suite provided by Mr. Gallatin. There
are a number of tests that do not pass; they all relate to locking a 64bit
file on a NFSv2 mount; they all appear to be OS bugs on the NFS client side.
IRIX is particularly bad about this.
If you have any questions or comments please direct them to myself
<crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
--
David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu
Lab Director | Rm: 308 Lally Hall
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860
Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033
I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 19:47: 4 2000
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Message-Id: <200004080246.MAA15027@mycenae.ilion.eu.org>
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Cc: "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" <myevmenkin@att.com>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:33:02 GMT."
<38EDD57E.56A2681B@tdnet.com.br>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:46:38 +1000
From: Patryk Zadarnowski <patrykz@ilion.eu.org>
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> "Yevmenkin, Maksim N, CSCIO" wrote:
>
> > only one :-) performance :-) context switch is a slow operation.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > emax
>
>
> Excuse me gentleman, who said that ?
> Take time to visit this site: http://www.qnx.com/iat/download/index.html
>
> You'll be introduced to a hard-real time OS (with a very modular
> design).
> The while OS fits in a single floppy with TCP/IP, GUI, web browser, http
> server, and again, all that in a single floppy. HOw can it be done?
>
> This OS uses microkernel arch.
> Fill their form in order to get a book describing its OS internal arch.
>
> Can some here explain me why such approach is not taken by FreeBSD?
Yes. FreeBSD is based on the BSD monolithic kernel. It's precisely the
``other camp'' to the u-kernel guys (like myself.) Hence the ``BSD''
in its name. ;)
Pat.
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Patryk Zadarnowski University of New South Wales
<pat@ia64.org> School of Computer Science and Engineering
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 21:23:23 2000
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To: "David E. Cross" <crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
ragnar@sysabend.org, vladimir-bsd-stable@math.uic.edu,
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crossd@cs.rpi.edu
Subject: lockd-0.2a released!
In-Reply-To: Message from "David E. Cross" <crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:07:40 EDT." <200004080007.UAA51276@cs.rpi.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 00:23:14 -0400
From: "David E. Cross" <crossd@cs.rpi.edu>
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Oops, I seem to have made a mistake in the XDR patch that I included
with lockd-0.2. I have re-rolled the patch with a corrected patch.
As such, and to avoid confusion, I have re-labeled this as lockd-0.2a.
Once again, the URL is:
http://www.cs.rpi.edu/~crossd/FreeBSD/lockd-0.2a.tar.gz
Have fun.
--
David Cross | email: crossd@cs.rpi.edu
Lab Director | Rm: 308 Lally Hall
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, | Ph: 518.276.2860
Department of Computer Science | Fax: 518.276.4033
I speak only for myself. | WinNT:Linux::Linux:FreeBSD
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 22: 8:36 2000
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Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:08:37 -0600
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Organization: Softweyr LLC
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To: David Holloway <davidhol@windriver.com>
Cc: Ugen Antsilevitch <ugen@xonix.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
References: <200004072315.QAA01455@papermill.wrs.com>
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David Holloway wrote:
>
> In message <38EE6AA7.55DEA97D@xonix.com>, Ugen Antsilevitch writes:
> >
> >Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> >
> >QNX is great and all the power to it. This is FreeBSD and it is unix and BSD
> >and as such it is what it is. If it would take a QNX approach then it would
> >not be FreeBSD but something rather different. Thats the answer...
>
> Yeah I wouldn't want to have to retaliate with
> shameless plugs of vxWorks.
Because that might cause me to go off on a rant about how inappropriate
both are for making well-behaved internet servers. Portability my ass.
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Apr 7 22:44:58 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:44:52 +1000
To: Gustavo V G C Rios <kernel@lince.tdnet.com.br>
Cc: Nick Sayer <nsayer@quack.kfu.com>,
Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is traditional unixes kernel really stable ?
Message-ID: <20000408154451.A45267@gurney.reilly.home>
References: <38ED128C.22C3AA28@tdnet.com.br> <20000406192206.N22104@fw.wintelcom.net> <38ED233E.74716D02@tdnet.com.br> <20000406230234.B4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <38EDD209.421EF9B0@tdnet.com.br> <38EE0536.F2305A40@quack.kfu.com> <38EDDBC4.51F2414D@tdnet.com.br>
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On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 12:59:48PM +0000, Gustavo V G C Rios wrote:
> Yeah! I had started to study OS (UNIX Internals: the new frontiers)
> internals. That book tell the same about microkernel, but when i
> downloaded QNX demo disk i got confused.
Another oldie-but-goodie OS book is Andrew Tannenbaum's "Modern
Operating Systems".
> If microkernel has such a drawnbacks, why QNX is so fast and reliable?
Well, it's a bit faster, perhaps, because QNX doesn't do VM. So it
doesn't swap or page, and probably gets more help from the processor for
memory space management. All processes reside in memory all the time.
The QNX demo floppy, obviously, runs entirely out of main memory, and
doesn't even contain disk subsystem drivers.
It's reliable (to the extent that it is) because it's another
20-year-old operating system that's been worked on continuously by
clue-posessing individuals, in real-world situations.
> PS: I am just a beginner, so, don't take me wrong. The fact is that i
> am really confused about what books say about microkernel and what in
> that single demo floppy. I would be really glad to have some here to
> kindly clarify it to me.
Another place to look at microkernel stuff is the GNU Hurd and the L4
systems.
Now: why isn't everyone doing it that way?
There's certainly a historical factor involved, but basically, the
modern Unix kernel pretty much does what you want an operating system to
do: it provides a clean model of the hardware, and support for processes
that can exist in separate memory spaces and communicate with each
other. About the only serious difference is that in Unix, file systems
tend to live in the kernel and in microkernels they live outside. There
are some pretty compelling performance reasons to keep all of that in
the "OS" bucket. There has been enough development effort and testing
to cope with the reliability issues.
Once you get outside of filesystems, microkernel and monolithic systems
are all the same: the other services are provided by daemons/processes
of various sorts. When you look at them from far enough away,
all kernels are small.
-- Andrew
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 1:22: 2 2000
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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 05:21:06 -0400
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
From: Zdenek Radouch <zdenek@mediaone.net>
Subject: postscript printer handshake problem
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Problem:
I don't know how to configure the spooler to properly handshake
with a postscript printer (via standard parallel port).
Background:
I am trying to improve printer connectivity in my wife's graphic design
office. The basic idea I had was to take the direct-attached postscript
printers that currently have direct connections to a Mac or PC, and
hang them off one of the freebsd machines I have, thus effectively
converting the printers to network printers. I did that, and very quickly
found out that it does not quite work.
Details and my theory:
It is not exactly clear to me what's happening since the behavior is complex
and the errors are not simply obvious. Additionally, the Windows and Mac
postscript drivers seems to have their own issues.
some of the problems I see are:
[Note that most of the files do get printed OK]
1) some files leave the printer in a busy state (this does not
happen with a short postscript test code.
This suggests missing Ctrl-D handshake from the spooler.
2) appending Ctrl-D to the files that leave the printer busy
causes an extra page to be ejected/printed.
Can't explain this.
3) Some jobs result in a extra page printed with the text "%%EOF"
on it. I can't understand how the interpreter can let this
(DCS comment) through.
4) Some jobs do not get interpreted - the printer spews the postscript
source code - very annoying since a 20MB postscript source for
a two-page ad with graphics can make the printer waste an
entire box of paper. This may be related to 3) above - the printer
clearly has a mode to pass ASCII through and print it without any
interpretation - the question is how does this happen to a proper
postscript source file.
It looks like there are at least two problems:
1) the freebsd spooler does not handshake properly with the printer
I have been quite ignorant of the lpr subsystem, so I have
no idea how it is supposed to work, but based on my understanding
of postscript (feel free to correct me), I'd expect the following:
The spooler should examine the first couple bytes of the job file and look
for the DSC pattern (%!) and use that to decide whether or not the printer
is a postscript printer. For a non postscript printer it can simply dump
the job file in the printer. When talking to a postscript printer (really a
postscript interpreter), the spooler has to send Ctrl-D to indicate the end
of the job - the interpreter uses that to reset its current environment upon
completion of the current job, then sends Ctrl-D back to the spooler to
indicate that the next job can be started. Without the Ctrl-D the printer
will assume that more pages are coming and either time out,
or possibly fail the subsequent postscript processing because code
from the previous job may still sit on the interpreters stack.
2) The windows driver clearly violates the DSC by inserting Ctrl-D at
the end of the postscript file (But given the other problems I can
see why they'd do that).
I'd really appreciate if someone who is familiar with the bsd spooler could
comment on this. I am interested in how the spooler code currently works
when it comes to handshaking with postscript printers.
Of course, any other pointers are welcome; if this is known not to work,
let me know, too.
(BTW, the machine with the spooler runs freebsd 3.4 and the printer
sits on /dev/lpt0. Also, the Mac and Windows boxes can print without
any problems when they are attached directly and using their native
spoolers.)
Please respond to me directly at zdenek@mediaone.net,
I don't read this mailing list. Thanks.
-Zdenek
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 4:19:47 2000
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To: karsten@rohrbach.de
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>,
Cejka Rudolf <cejkar@dcse.fee.vutbr.cz>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
markm@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
References: <20000408012859.C90134@rohrbach.de>
In-Reply-To: <20000408012859.C90134@rohrbach.de> ; from "Karsten W. Rohrbach" <karsten@rohrbach.de> "Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:28:59 +0200."
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:19:57 +0200
From: Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > Mark Murray would know :-)
> >
> > I think there's a lot of stale cruft on ftp.internat.freebsd.org which
> > doesn't need to be mirrored - Mark could probably tell us all which bits
> > are suitable for mirroring (this should be documented somewhere for
> > posterity)
Mostly packages and distfiles.
> <covering_in_asbestos>
> mirroring of all that stuff should be migrated to rsync(1), since this
> implicitly defines (in terms of standard archive'/distribution handling)
> a structured "package" like layout, so we would have several collections
> (freebsd-ftp/ freebsd-www/ freebsd-crypto-US/ freebsd-crypto-nonUS/ and
> so on...)
> thus, it would be easier to set up a mirror, the paths would be more
> standard, the updates would be better in sync (since rsync really does a
> good job in not just only checking if a file has a new datestamp) and
> the world would be a bit better ;-)
> </covering_in_asbestos>
I could do this. What arre the setup concerns?
M
--
Mark Murray
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From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system
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Hello!
I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and
libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based
(including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked
at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except
USA_RESIDENT.
So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5
system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5.
Thank you.
Cheers,
/* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
/* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
/* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
/* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
/* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 5:53:10 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:52:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
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To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004081923030.22825-100000@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and
> libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based
> (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked
> at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except
> USA_RESIDENT.
>
> So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5
> system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5.
>
Using:
#NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links
will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt
(libdescrypt).
-----
Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org
--------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:15:38 2000
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From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10004080851240.59286-100000@pawn.primelocation.net>
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
>
> > Hello!
> >
> > I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and
> > libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based
> > (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked
> > at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except
> > USA_RESIDENT.
> >
> > So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5
> > system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5.
> >
>
> Using:
>
> #NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links
>
> will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt
> (libdescrypt).
>
But, AFAIUC, this deals only with libraries. And how about binary
executables in /bin, /sbin (e.g., init)?
Cheers,
/* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
/* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
/* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
/* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
/* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
[Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake]
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:18:32 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 09:18:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Fundakowski Feldman <green@FreeBSD.org>
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To: Daniel O'Connor <doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
Cc: "R.I.Pienaar" <rip@pinetec.co.za>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: RE: make release + X
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.000201103835.doconnor@gsoft.com.au>
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On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Daniel O'Connor wrote:
>
> On 31-Jan-00 R.I.Pienaar wrote:
> > how do i incorporate the XFree stuff into a freebsd release so that
> > it is in
> > acceptable format for sysinstall?
>
> Download the binary packages from XFree86.org..
>
> Someone was working on making the port produce tarballs that look like
> the XFree86 ones but I don't know how far that got.
Sorry for just seeing this message... it was I who was doing this, and I
completed it some time before 4.0-RELEASE. If someone's interested, I'll
give it a check and post it.
> ---
> Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer
> for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au
> "The nice thing about standards is that there
> are so many of them to choose from."
> -- Andrew Tanenbaum
--
Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! /
green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------'
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:20:10 2000
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From: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <cdf.lists@fxp.org>
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To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <jedgar@fxp.org>,
freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> >
> > > Hello!
> > >
> > > I am using FreeBSD 4.0. The thing is, that I want DES sources and
> > > libraries hanging around (just in case), but the whole system be MD5 based
> > > (including /sbin/init, other utils, and correct links in /lib). I looked
> > > at /etc/defaults/make.conf, but didn't and references of this kind, except
> > > USA_RESIDENT.
> > >
> > > So, when making world and stuff, how do I explicitly say to make MD5
> > > system, having *all* the sources, both DES and MD5.
> > >
> >
> > Using:
> >
> > #NODESCRYPTLINKS=true # do not replace libcrypt -> libscrypt links
> >
> > will ensure your libcrypt is not linked to the des-based libcrypt
> > (libdescrypt).
> >
>
> But, AFAIUC, this deals only with libraries. And how about binary
> executables in /bin, /sbin (e.g., init)?
>
If a program links with libcrypt and libcrypt is linked to libscrypt (MD5
version) instead of libdescrypt (DES version), then that program will use
MD5.
-----
Chris D. Faulhaber - jedgar@fxp.org - jedgar@FreeBSD.org
--------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD: The Power To Serve - http://www.FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 6:34:41 2000
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From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
To: "Chris D. Faulhaber" <cdf.lists@fxp.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: How to make sure that I compile MD5 based system
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Chris D. Faulhaber wrote:
> If a program links with libcrypt and libcrypt is linked to libscrypt (MD5
> version) instead of libdescrypt (DES version), then that program will use
> MD5.
>
Got it. Thanks.
Cheers,
/* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
/* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
/* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
/* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
/* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 7:26:11 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 21:25:16 +0700 (NOVST)
From: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10004080851240.59286-100000@pawn.primelocation.net>
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Hi!
AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box,
and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there
any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to
make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve?
Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I
don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people
on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future
caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full
answer here. Thank you in advance.
System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R
P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list.
Cheers,
/* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
/* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
/* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
/* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
/* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
[Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake]
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
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FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what?
Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own?
Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today?
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 7:31:59 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:48:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug?
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I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD.
The system consists of a server who forks its clients.
When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get
information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say
they connected to
server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the
connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not
via fork/execlp) everything works just fine.
This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I
assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can
help me with this?
Sean
Sean Peck
News Index -- The original News Only Search Engine.
http://www.newsindex.com/
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 8: 8: 9 2000
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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:07:42 -0500
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <giffunip@asme.org>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004082114170.23805-100000@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
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FWIW, I understand that they carry pgcc (http://www.goof.com) which may
be very risky under Linux. Linus doesn't even recommend the latest gcc
because he likes to keep his kernel dependent on the old (non-standard)
features.
Look in the archives, I recall someone benchmarked the new gcc on this
list. the FAQ on goof.com is also interesting if you want to try out
pgcc on FreeBSD.
cheers,
Pedro.
"Alexey N. Dokuchaev" wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
>
> I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box,
> and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there
> any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to
> make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve?
>
> Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I
> don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people
> on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future
> caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full
> answer here. Thank you in advance.
>
> System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R
>
> P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list.
>
> Cheers,
>
> /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
> /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
> /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
> /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
> /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
>
> [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake]
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.12
> GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+
> E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+
> t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
> Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
> Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow?
> FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what?
>
> Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own?
>
> Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today?
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:18:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" <kabaev@mail.ru>
To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Subject: RE: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 M
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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I doubt Mandrake gets any significant performance boost from using gcc with
optimisation levels beyond -O. They just use this "super optimised" to
stand out from all other Linux crowd rather than for any practical purpose. It
has been reported several times that optimisation levels O2 ang higher are
buggy and known to generate wrong code on several occasions. This was true for
gcc 2.7.2.3 and it is still true for gcc 2.95.2. In other words, your attempt to
squeese last drop of performance from your system in this way is futile :). The
gain you will get is just not worth associated risks.
On 08-Apr-00 Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> Hi!
>
> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
>
> I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box,
> and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there
> any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to
> make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve?
>
> Of course, I could just man gcc and turn every option I find useful, but I
> don't have _that_ much experience with gcc as (I am sure) certain people
> on this maillist have. So not to run into any problems in the future
> caused by my 'overoptimized' system, I would like to get deep and full
> answer here. Thank you in advance.
>
> System is: genuine intel Pentium 200 MMX proc, 64M memory, FreeBSD 4.0-R
>
> P.S. Please cc me directly, since I am not the member of this list.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly | */
> /* known as DAN Fe | mailto:danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru */
> /* | ICQ UIN: 38934845 */
> /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
> /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab | */
>
> [Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake]
>
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> Version: 3.12
> GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL++++$ P++>$ L+
> E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+
> t+ 5+ X+ R- !tv b++ DI+ D+++ G++ e h !r !y+
> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>
> Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
> Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow?
> FreeBSD: Are you guys coming or what?
>
> Microsoft: What are we going to rip off today and claim as our own?
>
> Microsoft: Where do you want to be taken today?
>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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----------------------------------
E-Mail: Alexander N. Kabaev <kabaev@mail.ru>
Date: 08-Apr-00
Time: 11:07:16
----------------------------------
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 8:21: 5 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 08:47:11 -0700
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug?
Message-ID: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
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* Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com> [000408 07:58] wrote:
>
> I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD.
>
> The system consists of a server who forks its clients.
> When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get
> information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say
> they connected to
> server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the
> connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not
> via fork/execlp) everything works just fine.
>
> This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I
> assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can
> help me with this?
Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much
we can do to address this.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 9:21:39 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:38:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug?
In-Reply-To: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
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Alfred,
Here is the code being used.
This is the Server Code, xxx are the IP of box, yyy is port this server is
listening too passed to the client
user_port = socket_config(xxxx);
while (y<1){
if(!fork()){
printf("Starting Client %d\n",getpid());
close(user_port);
execlp("./client","client","XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX","YYYY",NULL);
printf("Ending forked %d\n",xxx);
exit(0);
}
y++;
}
=========================================================================================
This is the client main
sleep(10); //this is just to make sure that the server is ready to
// listen added for tracing and testing of this bug
if(argc<3){printf("Usage get host port\n");exit(0);}
strcpy(localhostname,argv[1]);
port1 = atoi(argv[2]);
printf("Connectiong to %s port %d\n",localhostname,port1);
signal(SIGPIPE,SIG_IGN);
result=10;
printf("GETTING PAGE FROM SERVER\n");
while((strcmp(buf,"NONE")!=0)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){
memset(buf,0,sizeof(buf));
result=10;
timeout=0;
while((result !=1)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){
result = tcp_get_conn(localhostname,port1,10,&sock1);
if(result==TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT){timeout++;}
}
printf("result %d\n",result); //This is coming back 1 in both the
// fork/execlp and in direct from shell
// running
printf("ERRNO %d\n",errno); // this is coming back 36 in both shell and
// fork/execlp
if ((result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){
write(sock1,"GIMME\n",6);
bufp=buf;
//Does not appeart to be blocking
while((size=read(sock1, bufp, (5000-(bufp-buf))))>0){
printf("size %d\n",size);
bufp+=size;
}
}
close(sock1);
printf("GOT INFO\n");
if(timeout==10){strcpy(buf,"NONE");}
printf("GOT BUF: %s\n",buf); // In fork this comes back with Empty
// string, but has valid data if
// run seperately. When forked, Server
// just stays in select state, never
// gets any connections, but clients
// execute as if they have one.
=================================================================================
Here is the tcp_get_connection() code
/*
* given a HOST name and service PORT number, return connected TCP
* socket to the requested service at the requested host. It will
* timeout after SECS (if < 0 then hang). Passes back socket in SOCKP
* and returns error codes.
*/
/* tcp_get_conn return codes */
#define TCP_NO_ERROR 1 /* no error */
#define TCP_NOT_FOUND 2 /* host not found */
#define TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE 3 /* socket create failure
*/
#define TCP_CONNECT_ERROR 4 /* socket connect error */
#define TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT 5 /* socket connect timeout
*/
#define TCP_CONNECT_NONE 6 /* socket didn't connect
*/
#define TCP_TRANSFER_ERROR 7 /* read/write error */
EXPORT int tcp_get_conn(const char * host, const int port,
const int secs, int * sockp)
{
struct sockaddr_in sadr;
struct hostent *hostp;
struct timeval timeout, *timeoutp;
fd_set fds;
char **addrp, okay = 0;
int sock, ret;
#ifdef __osf__
struct itimerval timer;
#endif
/* locate host */
hostp = gethostbyname(host);
if (hostp == NULL)
return TCP_NOT_FOUND;
/* setup internet port */
sadr.sin_family = (u_short)AF_INET;
sadr.sin_port = htons(port);
sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, IPPROTO_TCP);
if (sock < 0)
return TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE;
#ifndef __osf__
/* make the fd non-blocking */
(void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) | O_NONBLOCK);
#endif
if (secs < 0)
timeoutp = 0L;
else
timeoutp = &timeout;
FD_ZERO(&fds);
/* try to connect to the remote server */
for (addrp = hostp->h_addr_list; *addrp != NULL; addrp++) {
(void)memcpy((void *)&sadr.sin_addr, *addrp, sizeof(sadr.sin_addr));
#ifdef __osf__
/* set the timer */
timer.it_interval = timeout;
setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL);
(void)signal(SIGALRM, catch_alarm);
alarm_caught = FALSE;
#endif
/* connect or start the connection */
ret = connect(sock, (void *)&sadr, sizeof(sadr));
#ifdef __osf__
/* disable the timer */
timer.it_value.tv_sec = 0;
timer.it_value.tv_usec = 0;
setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL);
(void)signal(SIGALRM, SIG_IGN);
#endif
if (ret == 0) {
okay = 1;
break;
}
#ifdef __osf__
(void)close(sock);
if (alarm_caught)
return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT;
else
return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
#endif
/* not waiting for connection? */
if (errno != EINPROGRESS && errno != EWOULDBLOCK) {
/* connection refused? */
if (errno == ECONNREFUSED)
continue;
/* otherwise error */
(void)close(sock);
return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
}
for (;;) {
FD_SET(sock, &fds);
if (secs >= 0) {
timeout.tv_sec = secs;
timeout.tv_usec = 0;
}
ret = select(sock + 1, 0L, &fds, 0L, timeoutp);
if (ret > 0 && FD_ISSET(sock, &fds)) {
okay = 1;
break;
}
if (ret == 0) {
(void)close(sock);
return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT;
}
if (ret < 0 && errno != EINTR) {
(void)close(sock);
return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
}
}
if (okay)
break;
}
/* connection made? */
if (okay) {
#ifndef __osf__
/* turn off non-blocking */
(void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) & ~O_NONBLOCK);
#endif
*sockp = sock;
return TCP_NO_ERROR;
}
(void)close(sock);
return TCP_CONNECT_NONE;
}
Sean Peck
News Index -- The original News Only Search Engine.
http://www.newsindex.com/
On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> * Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com> [000408 07:58] wrote:
> >
> > I am having a bizarre problem with a system on FreeBSD.
> >
> > The system consists of a server who forks its clients.
> > When the clients are forked, they try to connect to the server and get
> > information. Unfortunately when they fork off (fork/execlp), they say
> > they connected to
> > server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the
> > connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not
> > via fork/execlp) everything works just fine.
> >
> > This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I
> > assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can
> > help me with this?
>
> Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much
> we can do to address this.
>
> --
> -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
> "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
>
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 10: 5:25 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 10:31:35 -0700
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug?
Message-ID: <20000408103135.Z4381@fw.wintelcom.net>
References: <20000408084711.W4381@fw.wintelcom.net> <Pine.BSI.3.95.1000408122156.882A-100000@news1.newsindex.com>
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* Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com> [000408 09:47] wrote:
> Alfred,
>
> Here is the code being used.
ew. :P There seems to be some problems in your tcp connect library...
> while((result !=1)&&(result!=TCP_CONNECT_NONE)&&(timeout!=10)){
> result = tcp_get_conn(localhostname,port1,10,&sock1);
> if(result==TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT){timeout++;}
> }
> printf("result %d\n",result); //This is coming back 1 in both the
> // fork/execlp and in direct from shell
> // running
> printf("ERRNO %d\n",errno); // this is coming back 36 in both shell and
> // fork/execlp
36 is EINPROGRESS, somehow your connect function isn't handling non-blocking
connects properly.
> Here is the tcp_get_connection() code
>
> /*
> * given a HOST name and service PORT number, return connected TCP
> * socket to the requested service at the requested host. It will
> * timeout after SECS (if < 0 then hang). Passes back socket in SOCKP
> * and returns error codes.
> */
>
> /* tcp_get_conn return codes */
> #define TCP_NO_ERROR 1 /* no error */
> #define TCP_NOT_FOUND 2 /* host not found */
> #define TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE 3 /* socket create failure
> */
> #define TCP_CONNECT_ERROR 4 /* socket connect error */
> #define TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT 5 /* socket connect timeout
> */
> #define TCP_CONNECT_NONE 6 /* socket didn't connect
> */
> #define TCP_TRANSFER_ERROR 7 /* read/write error */
>
> EXPORT int tcp_get_conn(const char * host, const int port,
> const int secs, int * sockp)
> {
> struct sockaddr_in sadr;
> struct hostent *hostp;
> struct timeval timeout, *timeoutp;
> fd_set fds;
> char **addrp, okay = 0;
> int sock, ret;
> #ifdef __osf__
> struct itimerval timer;
> #endif
>
> /* locate host */
> hostp = gethostbyname(host);
> if (hostp == NULL)
> return TCP_NOT_FOUND;
>
> /* setup internet port */
> sadr.sin_family = (u_short)AF_INET;
> sadr.sin_port = htons(port);
>
> sock = socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, IPPROTO_TCP);
> if (sock < 0)
> return TCP_SOCKET_FAILURE;
>
> #ifndef __osf__
> /* make the fd non-blocking */
> (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) | O_NONBLOCK);
> #endif
>
> if (secs < 0)
> timeoutp = 0L;
> else
> timeoutp = &timeout;
> FD_ZERO(&fds);
>
> /* try to connect to the remote server */
> for (addrp = hostp->h_addr_list; *addrp != NULL; addrp++) {
> (void)memcpy((void *)&sadr.sin_addr, *addrp, sizeof(sadr.sin_addr));
>
> #ifdef __osf__
> /* set the timer */
> timer.it_interval = timeout;
> setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL);
> (void)signal(SIGALRM, catch_alarm);
> alarm_caught = FALSE;
> #endif
>
> /* connect or start the connection */
> ret = connect(sock, (void *)&sadr, sizeof(sadr));
>
> #ifdef __osf__
> /* disable the timer */
> timer.it_value.tv_sec = 0;
> timer.it_value.tv_usec = 0;
> setitimer(ITIMER_REAL, &timer, NULL);
> (void)signal(SIGALRM, SIG_IGN);
> #endif
>
> if (ret == 0) {
> okay = 1;
> break;
> }
>
> #ifdef __osf__
> (void)close(sock);
>
> if (alarm_caught)
> return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT;
> else
> return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
> #endif
>
> /* not waiting for connection? */
>
> if (errno != EINPROGRESS && errno != EWOULDBLOCK) {
> /* connection refused? */
>
> if (errno == ECONNREFUSED)
> continue;
>
> /* otherwise error */
> (void)close(sock);
> return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
> }
>
> for (;;) {
FD_ZERO here?
> FD_SET(sock, &fds);
> if (secs >= 0) {
> timeout.tv_sec = secs;
> timeout.tv_usec = 0;
> }
>
> ret = select(sock + 1, 0L, &fds, 0L, timeoutp);
0L -> NULL please :)
> if (ret > 0 && FD_ISSET(sock, &fds)) {
> okay = 1;
> break;
> }
> if (ret == 0) {
> (void)close(sock);
> return TCP_CONNECT_TIMEOUT;
> }
> if (ret < 0 && errno != EINTR) {
> (void)close(sock);
> return TCP_CONNECT_ERROR;
> }
> }
>
> if (okay)
> break;
> }
>
> /* connection made? */
> if (okay) {
> #ifndef __osf__
> /* turn off non-blocking */
> (void)fcntl(sock, F_SETFL, fcntl(sock, F_GETFL, 0) & ~O_NONBLOCK);
> #endif
> *sockp = sock;
> return TCP_NO_ERROR;
> }
>
> (void)close(sock);
> return TCP_CONNECT_NONE;
> }
>
Pick up a copy of Unix Netork Programming vol I, see page 411, it
has a very good example on how to do non-blocking connects properly.
--
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
"I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk."
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 11: 1: 0 2000
Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (peter1.yahoo.com [208.48.107.4])
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X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999
To: wc.bulte@chello.nl
Cc: "Koster, K.J." <K.J.Koster@kpn.com>,
"'Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com'" <Bob.Gorichanaz@midata.com>,
"'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: bad memory patch?
In-Reply-To: Message from Wilko Bulte <wkb@chello.nl>
of "Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:36:46 +0200." <20000407153646.A7558@yedi.wbnet>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:00:48 -0700
From: Peter Wemm <peter@netplex.com.au>
Message-Id: <20000408180048.28D8C1CD7@overcee.netplex.com.au>
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Wilko Bulte wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 07, 2000 at 03:31:07PM +0100, Koster, K.J. wrote:
> > >
> > > Not trying to push this idea one way or the other, I'm just
> > > curious as to WHY so many people think this is a "bad idea"
> > >
> > I can think of four things real quick:
> >
> > 1) Disks are much slowere, and controllers actually have time to do proper
> > error detection. Memory is built for raw, blind speed. The analogy that
> > memory is a disk does not hold for long.
> >
> > 2) Testing memory is a nightmare. It's virtually impossible to test your RA
M
> > and guarantee it is right. If the memory test tells you your RAM is broken
,
> > you have to replace it. If it tells you your RAM is fine, it may or may not
> > be fine. Much like a pregnancy test. :-) Thus, expecting the OS to find and
> > mark bad memory for you will give you a false sense of security.
>
> And Real Systems [tm] use ECC memory. ;-)
And Real Memory (tm) fails with transient random errors that cannot be
mapped around. :-)
We recently (like 2 weeks ago) had a batch of motherboards that had loading
problems with 512MB of ram loaded, we'd see lots and lots of random single
and multiple bit errors, never in the same place. It turns out the problem
wasn't in the ram modules themselves but in the data path between the
memory controller and the ram. Most errors were in the read data path
which made debugging interesting as we'd see data in registers that didn't
match memory in the crashdumps. *That* caused a lot of confusion (and lack
of sleep). Extensive memory testing didn't detect problems as it depended
on the chipset doing other things as well, including PCI IO.
Cheers,
-Peter
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 11: 8:36 2000
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From: Joshua Goodall <joshua@roughtrade.net>
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To: "David O'Brien" <obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu>
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
security@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: desire for ftp.internat.freebsd.org mirror
In-Reply-To: <20000406134812.J13677@dragon.nuxi.com>
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I can't get there. Latency & packetloss too high from my cable modem in
NL.
Amusingly the route goes through the US :)
- J
On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 06, 2000 at 12:47:16PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> > I guess the thing to do is to make sure they have the same directory
> > structure as internat though, so people can simply substitute e.g.
> > ftp2.internat.freebsd.org for something which tries to fetch(1) from
> > internat.
>
> Can someone that can actually get into ftp.internat.freebsd.org compare
> them?
>
>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 12:13:24 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200004081913.MAA12113@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: Sean Peck <speck@news1.newsindex.com>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 3.3 fork/Exec bug?
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:> they connected to
:> server and recieved nothing, yet the server does not register the
:> connection or request for info. If I run the client independently (not
:> via fork/execlp) everything works just fine.
:>
:> This code is deployed and operational on BSDi without a problem, so I
:> assume that this is OS related, does anyone know anything about, or can
:> help me with this?
:
:Without some example code to demostrate the problem there's not much
:we can do to address this.
:
This kinda sounds like a case where the server process has its
listen descriptor and when it fork/exec's the child it is either
not setting the close-on-exec flag for the descriptor, or the
child is not closing the descriptor. Since this is an exec,
I'll bet the problem is that the server is not setting the
close-on-exec flag for the descriptor.
-Matt
Matthew Dillon
<dillon@backplane.com>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 14:18:50 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:18:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.org>
To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
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On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for
optimisation levels higher than -O.
Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the
-march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using
processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling.
By all means, compile your own system the way you want, but be sure to
recompile with nothing but -O before submitting any bug reports.
Kris
----
In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate.
-- Charles Forsythe <forsythe@alum.mit.edu>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 14:34:48 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200004082134.OAA12743@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
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:On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
:
:> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
:> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
:> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
:
:Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for
:optimisation levels higher than -O.
:
:Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the
:-march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using
:processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling.
:Kris
I use -Os for everything. I wouldn't bother with anything else. Someone
ran a bunch of benchmarks with various gcc/egcs options a while back
and, frankly, the top half dozen combinations were so close to each
other performance-wise that it just didn't matter. -Os was in that
group, but also produced significantly smaller binaries.
I wouldn't touch the -march stuff at all, nor would I use -O3 (which
tries to inline standard static functions verses -O2) - that's useless
on IA32 because call/returns are very fast (I had an argument with John
Dyson about call/return overhead verses an L1 cache miss and
we ran a bunch of timings. I lost the argument :-) call/return won the
race handily).
-Matt
Matthew Dillon
<dillon@backplane.com>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 15: 6:16 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:05:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Wayne Culver <culverk@wam.umd.edu>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>,
"Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
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Why exactly whould you not touch the -march options? I have had no
problems using them, and my system (5.0-CURRENT) seems a little faster
with -march=i686. I could be wrong though as I havn't done any exact
tests... it just seems a bit more responsive..
=================================================================
| Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. |
| Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 |
| and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr |
| The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) |
| College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/|
=================================================================
On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Matthew Dillon wrote:
> :On Sat, 8 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> :
> :> AFAIK, Linux Mandrake has it's kernel and userland highly optimized for
> :> Pentium architecture. However, they have additional gcc optimization
> :> flags turned on by default, including -O3 and -mfast_math.
> :
> :Can you say "gimmick"? :-) gcc often produces demonstrably broken code for
> :optimisation levels higher than -O.
> :
> :Probably the only useful and safe option apart from -O is the
> :-march=pentium/pentiumpro/pentiumii/etc option for using
> :processor-specific opcodes and instruction scheduling.
> :Kris
>
> I use -Os for everything. I wouldn't bother with anything else. Someone
> ran a bunch of benchmarks with various gcc/egcs options a while back
> and, frankly, the top half dozen combinations were so close to each
> other performance-wise that it just didn't matter. -Os was in that
> group, but also produced significantly smaller binaries.
>
> I wouldn't touch the -march stuff at all, nor would I use -O3 (which
> tries to inline standard static functions verses -O2) - that's useless
> on IA32 because call/returns are very fast (I had an argument with John
> Dyson about call/return overhead verses an L1 cache miss and
> we ran a bunch of timings. I lost the argument :-) call/return won the
> race handily).
>
>
> -Matt
> Matthew Dillon
> <dillon@backplane.com>
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 15:53:46 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Message-Id: <200004082253.PAA13069@apollo.backplane.com>
To: Kenneth Wayne Culver <culverk@wam.umd.edu>
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>,
"Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
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:
:Why exactly whould you not touch the -march options? I have had no
:problems using them, and my system (5.0-CURRENT) seems a little faster
:with -march=i686. I could be wrong though as I havn't done any exact
:tests... it just seems a bit more responsive..
:
:=================================================================
:| Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. |
A couple of reasons, but the two main ones are:
* They are still under development
* They won't do what you expect (for example, the pentium optimizations
often produce faster code on a PIII then the i686 optimizations)
* They *have* been known to generate bad code, owing to being under
constant development.
* And your binaries won't necessarily be portable between
manufacturers (AMD vs Intel), or performance may suffer.
-Matt
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 16:51:49 2000
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From: David Malone <dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie>
To: "Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
Message-ID: <20000409005133.A86187@walton.maths.tcd.ie>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10004080851240.59286-100000@pawn.primelocation.net> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004082114170.23805-100000@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10004082114170.23805-100000@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>; from danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru on Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:16PM +0700
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On Sat, Apr 08, 2000 at 09:25:16PM +0700, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:
> I'm trying to achive maximum performance of my FreeBSD 4.0-RELEASE box,
> and going to recompile kernel and world using -Os -pipe options. Is there
> any additional flags I might consider turning on (like -mfast_math) to
> make both kernel and world work at the top performance I can achieve?
I thought there was no floating point code in the kernel, and so
-mfast-math wouldn't make any difference. I presume Linux doesn't
have any FPU code in the kernel either, to save having to save/restore
the registers on syscalls?
David.
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From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Apr 8 19:43:11 2000
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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 22:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Wayne Culver <culverk@wam.umd.edu>
To: Matthew Dillon <dillon@apollo.backplane.com>
Cc: Kris Kennaway <kris@FreeBSD.ORG>,
"Alexey N. Dokuchaev" <danfe@inet.ssc.nsu.ru>,
freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: What are the best gcc optimization options for Pentium 200 MMX
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Thanks :-)
=================================================================
| Kenneth Culver | FreeBSD: The best OS around. |
| Unix Systems Administrator | ICQ #: 24767726 |
| and student at The | AIM: muythaibxr |
| The University of Maryland, | Website: (Under Construction) |
| College Park. | http://www.wam.umd.edu/~culverk/|
=================================================================
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