From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 1:22:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 01:22:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dt051n37.san.rr.com (dt051n37.san.rr.com [204.210.32.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD5C37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gorean.org (Studded@master [10.0.0.2]) by dt051n37.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19284; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:22:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from DougB@gorean.org) Sender: doug@dt051n37.san.rr.com Message-ID: <3A3C85DD.F26ED244@gorean.org> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:22:37 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: don@coleman.org Cc: "David E. Cross" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: rpc.lockd and true NFS locks? References: <200012161757.JAA22961@eozoon.coleman.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Coleman wrote: > > David, > > I wrote the NFS lockd code for BSD/OS (it's based on some user land > stuff Keith Bostic did, and then Kirk McKusick helped clean up my > basic design and the VFS layering for the server/kernel side). We have an application that is desperately in need of client side NFS locks, so I'm highly motivated to test this out if it can be ported to either -stable or -current. Doug -- "The most difficult thing in the world is to know how to do a thing and to watch someone else do it wrong without comment." -- Theodore H. White Do YOU Yahoo!? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 1:39:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 01:39:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (unknown [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B89637B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 01:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-144-132-234-126.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.234.126]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04590 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:39:19 +1100 (EDT) Received: (qmail 42784 invoked by uid 1000); 17 Dec 2000 09:39:18 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:39:18 +1100 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> References: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 06:37:56PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 06:37:56PM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > PS. Before this starts a flame war, let me say that I really believe > > that MacOS X is a very good thing for everyone involved, although the > > choice of Mach for the microkernel seems a little arbitrary if not > > misguided. > > It's hardly arbitrary, though the jury's still out as to whether it's > misguided or not. You may remember that Apple bought a little company > called NeXT a few years back. Well, that company's people had a lot > to do with the OS design of OS X and let's not forget the design of > NeXTStep. Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of BSD as well as the top half? Not that there can't be a good reason. There probably is. I just haven't heard it. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 3:18:24 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 03:18:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF8237B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 03:18:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBHBHww06138; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 03:17:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Andrew Reilly" Cc: Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: Message from "Andrew Reilly" of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:39:18 +1100." <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 03:17:58 -0800 Message-ID: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious > microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never > understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a > QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but > how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of > BSD as well as the top half? That's actually a much better question and one I can't really answer. One theory might be that the NeXT people were simply Microkernel bigots for no particularly well-justified reason and that is simply that. Another theory might be that they were able to deal with the machine-dependent parts of Mach far more easily given its comparatively minimalist design and given their pre-existing expertise with it. Another theory, sort of related to the previous one, is that Apple has some sort of plans for the future which they're not currently sharing where Mach plays some unique role. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 4:43:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 04:43:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de [160.45.34.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81C037B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de (oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de [160.45.33.83]) by axp5.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA08300; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:43:22 +0100 (MET) Received: (from thimm@localhost) by oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA27010; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:43:21 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:43:20 +0100 From: Axel Thimm To: Dan Nelson Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: rpc.lockd and true NFS locks? Message-ID: <20001217134320.A26206@oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de> Reply-To: Axel Thimm , Carsten Urbach References: <200012142245.RAA69128@cs.rpi.edu> <20001216164405.C9380@oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de> <20001216162720.A11561@dan.emsphone.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001216162720.A11561@dan.emsphone.com>; from dnelson@emsphone.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:27:20PM -0600 Sender: thimm@oberon.physik.fu-berlin.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 04:27:20PM -0600, Dan Nelson wrote: > In the last episode (Dec 16), Axel Thimm said: > > Wouldn't that mean, that you might cause data corruption if, say, I was to > > read my mail from a FreeBSD box over an NFS mounted spool directory > > (running under OSF1 in our case), and I decided to write back the mbox to > > the spool dir the same moment new mail is delivered? > That's why dotlocking is recommended for locking mail spools. Both procmail > and mutt will dotlock your mail file while it's being accessed. This was just a test case above. Not all programs are kind enough to allow control of their locking strategy. What about samba accessing NFS volumes in a transparent net or pure sendmail w/o procmail? Especially if your mail server is already at heavy load serving O(1000) users, forcing each incomming mail to be passed to procmail would must certainly increase the load too much. (Maybe sendmail and samba can also be compiled with dotlocking methods, these are also just examples). Also not all our users want to switch to mutt, we have to support a wide range of mail readers. Axel. -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 4:57:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 04:57:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gate.trident-uk.co.uk (mail.trident-uk.co.uk [195.166.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BBD37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 04:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.207.93.139] by gate.trident-uk.co.uk for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org id MAA23246; Sun Dec 17 12:57:13 2000 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:02:01 +0000 Subject: Writing Device Drivers Message-ID: <20001217130201.A6074@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 17 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jamie Heckford Reply-To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I am very keen to develop for FreeBSD, and would like to start writing device drivers for various hardware that is unsupported. I have some knowledge of C, and have had a good read of "The design and Implementation of..." and bits and pieces of the kernel and driver sources. Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple examples that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like that? Thanks, Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 5:52:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 05:52:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gate.trident-uk.co.uk (mail.trident-uk.co.uk [195.166.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F40E37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 05:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.207.93.139] by gate.trident-uk.co.uk for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org id NAA24337; Sun Dec 17 13:34:10 2000 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:38:55 +0000 Subject: RE: ESS Sound Driver Message-ID: <20001217133855.H187@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 66 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jamie Heckford Reply-To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I got hold of you driver, compiled and installed it. After booting, I logged in as root and typed: # kldload snd_maestro3 but this returned the following error message: pcm0: at device 12.0 on pci0 pcm0: Unable to map i/o space device_probe_and_attach: pcm0 attach returned 6 Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?? Any help appreciated Jamie On 2000.12.15 16:47:16 +0000 "Long, Scott" wrote: > Myself and Darrell Anderson are working on a driver. Check out > http://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/maestro3 for mine or > http://www.cs.duke.edu/~anderson/freebsd/maestro3xxx for his. The PCI id > mentioned by the original poster (0x199a125d) is supported by this > driver, > though I haven't tested it. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michel Talon [mailto:michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr] > > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 9:42 AM > > To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: ESS Sound Driver > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 04:10:09PM +0000, Jamie Heckford wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Could anyone offer any guidance on getting the following > > sound card to work? > > > > > > It is in a Samsung GT8700 laptop - and I am using FreeBSD > > 4.2-RELEASE. > > > > > > Windows identifies the card as an ESS Maestro PCI Audio > > (WDM) - IRQ 5 > > > > > I have seen recently a HP laptop with a maestro 3 audio > > card. I have been > > able to run the sound card only with the Alsa drivers under Linux. > > Apparently the FreeBSD drivers are able to run only the > > maestro 2 and 2E. > > > > -- > > Michel Talon > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9: 1:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:01:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18A0037B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DFA193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:01:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHH1Cu62497; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:01:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:01:12 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Tony Finch Cc: Patryk Zadarnowski , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001217110112.A62479@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Tony Finch , Patryk Zadarnowski , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200012160050.LAA97623@mycenae.jantar.org> <20001217001407.R30096@hand.dotat.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001217001407.R30096@hand.dotat.at>; from dot@dotat.at on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:14:07AM +0000 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:14:07AM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: > Patryk Zadarnowski wrote: > >Now that I think of it, there aren't many commercial microkernel > >systems out there with the possible exception of QNX and lots of > >little embedded toys. > > Mac OS X is based on Mach. Yes, but Mac OS X isn't Mach and it isn't a microkernel [*] -- it's a hybrid. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org [*] For most, but perhaps not all, values of microkernel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9: 1:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:01:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ADB437B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14089; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:00:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08264; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:00:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14908.61766.86624.306668@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:00:54 -0700 (MST) To: "Andrew Reilly" Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> References: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > PS. Before this starts a flame war, let me say that I really believe > > > that MacOS X is a very good thing for everyone involved, although the > > > choice of Mach for the microkernel seems a little arbitrary if not > > > misguided. > > > > It's hardly arbitrary, though the jury's still out as to whether it's > > misguided or not. You may remember that Apple bought a little company > > called NeXT a few years back. Well, that company's people had a lot > > to do with the OS design of OS X and let's not forget the design of > > NeXTStep. > > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious > microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never > understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a > QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but > how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of > BSD as well as the top half? Kernel threads out of the box? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9:12:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:12:23 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ifour.com.br (unknown [200.236.148.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CC3637B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 40796 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2000 14:20:08 -0000 Received: from port40.tdnet.com.br (HELO ifour.com.br) (200.236.148.140) by midas.ifour.com.br with SMTP; 17 Dec 2000 14:20:08 -0000 Sender: grios@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3CD785.A4F5E644@ifour.com.br> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:11:01 +0000 From: Gustavo Vieira Goncalves Coelho Rios X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Andrew Reilly , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type References: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious > > microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never > > understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a > > QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but > > how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of > > BSD as well as the top half? > > That's actually a much better question and one I can't really answer. > > One theory might be that the NeXT people were simply Microkernel > bigots for no particularly well-justified reason and that is simply > that. Another theory might be that they were able to deal with the > machine-dependent parts of Mach far more easily given its > comparatively minimalist design and given their pre-existing expertise > with it. Another theory, sort of related to the previous one, is that > Apple has some sort of plans for the future which they're not > currently sharing where Mach plays some unique role. > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message I tried QNX! If microkernel is low performance, why QNX is so fast? It makes no sense to me! Is there any choice on QNX beats a freebsd server in , say, http server ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9:14:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:14:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74F837B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBHHE9e49097; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:14:09 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Nate Williams Cc: Andrew Reilly , Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: <14908.61766.86624.306668@nomad.yogotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Nate Williams wrote: > Kernel threads out of the box? The Mach kernel makes use of a thread primitive and a task primitive; however, their BSD OS personality is largely single-threaded with something approximately equivilent to our Giant -- they refer to this as a "Funnel", through which access to the BSD code is funneled so as to prevent problems. My understanding from a brief chat while in their Cupertino office is that they are in the process of gradually pushing locks down for specific subsystems (networking, etc), in much the same style we are. While there, I suggested that closer coordination between our development teams could save a lot of redundant work, given that the primitives we're using are probably quite similar (although presumably non-identical). It would be great if someone wanted to step up and help Apple coordinate their work with our work better, as it would allow more code sharing and more rapid development, as well as more wide-spread testing. If anyone is interested in looking at doing this, I have a list of relevent contacts in their kernel group. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9:17:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:17:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 085F337B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14385; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:17:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08424; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:17:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14908.62732.882070.32167@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:17:00 -0700 (MST) To: Robert Watson Cc: Nate Williams , Andrew Reilly , Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: References: <14908.61766.86624.306668@nomad.yogotech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Kernel threads out of the box? > > The Mach kernel makes use of a thread primitive and a task primitive; > however, their BSD OS personality is largely single-threaded with > something approximately equivilent to our Giant -- they refer to this as a > "Funnel", through which access to the BSD code is funneled so as to > prevent problems. Interesting. > My understanding from a brief chat while in their > Cupertino office is that they are in the process of gradually pushing > locks down for specific subsystems (networking, etc), in much the same > style we are. While there, I suggested that closer coordination between > our development teams could save a lot of redundant work, given that the > primitives we're using are probably quite similar (although presumably > non-identical). It would be great if someone wanted to step up and help > Apple coordinate their work with our work better, as it would allow more > code sharing and more rapid development, as well as more wide-spread > testing. If anyone is interested in looking at doing this, I have a list > of relevent contacts in their kernel group. The reason I mentioned the above is that Apple has HotSpot (Sun's fast Java VM) running under OS/X, which requires kernel threads. Until FreeBSD's kernel threads are a bit more 'user-friendly', we can't do anything with HotSpot. (As I understand it, HotSpot runs very well on the OS/X, so they seems to have gotten that part right...) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9:28:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:28:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2940C37B69B for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBHHRte49345; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:27:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:27:55 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 16 Dec 2000, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > PS. Before this starts a flame war, let me say that I really believe > > that MacOS X is a very good thing for everyone involved, although the > > choice of Mach for the microkernel seems a little arbitrary if not > > misguided. > > It's hardly arbitrary, though the jury's still out as to whether it's > misguided or not. You may remember that Apple bought a little company > called NeXT a few years back. Well, that company's people had a lot > to do with the OS design of OS X and let's not forget the design of > NeXTStep. The Darwin kernel is a microkernel in only a few senses of the word. It does have a small central code component that provides primitives for context and address space management, message passing, and so on. It does allow you to layer a variety of "personalities" on top of it providing the full functionlity of traditional operating systems with greater modularity and nice distributed system properties. However, it's also a monolithic kernel in the sense that it runs in a single address space, and the BSD personality included fits quite well in the "monolithic" definition, given that it's a large chunk of the FreeBSD kernel. Personally, I think their design has some nice properties, and that it was the right choice for them at the time. They had a large existing, well-designed and architected kernel environment based on a combination of Mach and BSD (NeXTStep), which already had all the right primitives and implementation for a highly scalable, multi-threaded, multi-processor kernel environment. When they branched the FreeBSD code, it was barely multi-processor, let alone multi-threaded. They took the best of the FreeBSD world (mature userland, mature network stack, well-defined ABI and API, POSIX-like libraries, liberal license), and replaced much of the old NeXTStep (BSD 4.3?) equivilents. Given that FreeBSD is now moving in the direction of greater architectural maturity in terms of kernel synchronization primitives allowing fine-grained kernel threading, strong SMP support, multi-platform support, I would expect that a sensible course would be to try and resolve some of the code-base difference between the two platforms, allowing Apple to continue to track our developments while retaining their proprietary userland environment. In particular, it would be nice to re-converge on locking/VFS/threading/SMP issues where possible. I actually like their HFS+ file system a lot (although I'd throw out the hard link hack, and hard links themselves) as it offers high performance directory operations. I'd fix their weird VOP's that try to take advantage of that, and work with them to fix the VFS problems that must hound them as much as us. I'd also work with them to integrate back some of their NFS fixes. I think that the determining factor for the success or failure of OS X is not its kernel architecture -- it's whether or not their userland interface diverges sufficiently from the OS 9 interface that their user base doesn't follow them to the new platform. The interface is what will make or break OS X; thus far they've managed to hide most of the nastiness of UNIX by adopting the NeXTStep netinfo configuration and directory service environment -- I've been seriously considering looking at adapting FreeBSD to use netinfo also, given that it provides a time-tested model for configuration management (local and distributed). It probably needs some cleaning up in the security sense, and possibly rewriting, but it's a strong starting point, and liberally licensed. What runs under that doesn't matter as long as Apple can support it and provide extensibility required by hardware vendors (their IOKit provides a fixed and object-oriented API for providing device support and management, and we should be comparing newbus to it and seeing what we missed :-). I'm impressed by their work and by their vendor support -- it comes shipped with Internet Explorer as the default native browser, and has strong commitments for native versions from software vendors such as Adobe and Microsoft -- the first UNIX system I've seen that does that while remaining a desktop pricetag. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 9:31:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 09:31:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9070F37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 09:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBHHUse49472; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:30:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:30:54 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Andrew Reilly Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Andrew Reilly wrote: > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious microkernel, if > it's only got one server: BSD? I've never understood the point of that > sort of use. It makes sense for a QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba > style of architecture, but how does Mach help Apple, instead of using > the bottom half of BSD as well as the top half? What I'd really like to know, and haven't had a chance to investigate much, is to what extent the Mach primitives are used by their userland environment. I.e., does their software really just use the BSD ABI/API, or does it rely on the Mach IPC primitives for performance in their graphics subsystem. If it relies only on the BSD interface, that gives them a path towards migrating more in the direction of a pure FreeBSD kernel, if they desire, or swapping it out with whatever they choose, as well as leveraging a lot of other work (in particular, security work) based on UNIX-like ABI/API's. If they do rely on the Mach primitives, then that may be less easy. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 11: 1: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:01:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D55C937B404; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653D3193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:01:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHJ10D62647; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:01:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:01:00 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001217130100.B62616@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:27:55PM -0500 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:27:55PM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: > -- I've been seriously considering looking at adapting > FreeBSD to use netinfo also, given that it provides a time-tested model > for configuration management (local and distributed). It probably needs > some cleaning up in the security sense, and possibly rewriting, but it's a > strong starting point, and liberally licensed. Most of netinfo will be supported via nsswitch and PADL.COM's nss-netinfo for FreeBSD 5.0. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 11: 3:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:03:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FA637B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBHJ2ve51023; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:02:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:02:56 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: <20001217130100.B62616@hamlet.nectar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 12:27:55PM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: > > -- I've been seriously considering looking at adapting > > FreeBSD to use netinfo also, given that it provides a time-tested model > > for configuration management (local and distributed). It probably needs > > some cleaning up in the security sense, and possibly rewriting, but it's a > > strong starting point, and liberally licensed. > > Most of netinfo will be supported via nsswitch and PADL.COM's > nss-netinfo for FreeBSD 5.0. That's great news -- I assume however that this is limited to the account directory service functionality, as opposed to the more general configuration parameters (login.conf equivs, etc)? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 11:19:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:19:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.attica.net.nz (mail.attica.net.nz [202.180.64.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D57737B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14036 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2000 19:19:33 -0000 Received: from 202-180-83-13.iff2.attica.net.nz (HELO davep200.afterswish.com) (202.180.83.13) by mail.attica.net.nz with SMTP; 17 Dec 2000 19:19:33 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001218075649.01accb00@pop3.i4free.co.nz> X-Sender: dmpreece@pop3.i4free.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:05:21 +1300 To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk From: David Preece Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20001217130201.A6074@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 13:02 17/12/00 +0000, you wrote: >Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple >examples >that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like >that? This is turning into a FAQ, but don't worry about it. The usual answer is to take one of the existing drivers and work out what it does. There's also a script for making shell drivers under /usr/share/examples/drivers. As for things like "how does DMA work?", "what exactly is an interrupt and what do I do with it?" or "what's the story with memory ranges and devices then?" then I'm afraid I can't help you there. In fact (to -hackers) this strikes me as one of the more fundamental problems of free software: I would go and write/fix some device drivers (for example the unknown phy in fxp that bothers me so much), except I can't really get a handle on how you're supposed to start on these things. Comments? URL's for IRQ101? Perhaps I should just stop whingeing and go hack with it to see what happens? (probably best). >Jamie Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 11:44: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:44:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C38137B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCBA193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:44:00 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHJi0Q62683; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:44:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:44:00 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001217134359.A62674@hamlet.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Robert Watson , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001217130100.B62616@hamlet.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:02:56PM -0500 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 02:02:56PM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: > That's great news -- I assume however that this is limited to the > account directory service functionality, as opposed to the more general > configuration parameters (login.conf equivs, etc)? That's correct, at least for the near term. However, over time I expect more C library functions will be supported (by being rewritten to use nsdispatch(3)). -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 11:57: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 11:57:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AA737B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBHJuxw07616; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:57:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: Robert Watson Cc: Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Watson of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 12:27:55 EST." Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 11:56:59 -0800 Message-ID: <7612.977083019@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > service environment -- I've been seriously considering looking at adapting > FreeBSD to use netinfo also, given that it provides a time-tested model > for configuration management (local and distributed). It probably needs > some cleaning up in the security sense, and possibly rewriting, but it's a > strong starting point, and liberally licensed. What runs under that I think that's a good idea. I've been having some of the same thoughts. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:15:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:15:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED88F37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BAD193E1 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:15:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHLF9F63063 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:15:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:15:09 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org>; from nectar@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:10:41PM -0800 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [This typo came from NetBSD, so in this particular source I have no intention of changing the style.] What do folks think about 1) if (data) free(data); versus 2) free(data); versus 3) #define xfree(x) if ((x) != NULL) free(x); xfree(data); -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:10:41PM -0800, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > nectar 2000/12/17 13:10:41 PST > > Modified files: > lib/libc/gen getgrent.c > Log: > Fix mostly harmless typo: > > if (data); > free(data); > > Discovered by: emacs cc-mode > > Revision Changes Path > 1.19 +2 -2 src/lib/libc/gen/getgrent.c > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:19: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:18:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748BE37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([208.191.149.190]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00LB8DS3UP@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:16:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56833; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:17:36 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:17:35 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> Sender: chris@holly.dyndns.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > What do folks think about > > 1) if (data) > free(data); > > versus > > 2) free(data); > > versus > > 3) #define xfree(x) if ((x) != NULL) free(x); > xfree(data); 2. The C standard dictates that free() does nothing when it gets a NULL argument. The other two are just extra clutter. -- +-------------------+-------------------------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | This system will self-destruct in five minutes. | | chris@calldei.com | | +-------------------+-------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:25:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:25:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from field.videotron.net (field.videotron.net [205.151.222.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491F937B402 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from modemcable213.3-201-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca ([24.201.3.213]) by field.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.12.14.10.29.p8) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00BOHE5VJG@field.videotron.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:25:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:25:55 -0500 (EST) From: Bosko Milekic Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> To: Chris Costello Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Chris Costello wrote: > On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > What do folks think about > > > > 1) if (data) > > free(data); > > > > versus > > > > 2) free(data); > > > > versus > > > > 3) #define xfree(x) if ((x) != NULL) free(x); > > xfree(data); > > 2. The C standard dictates that free() does nothing when it > gets a NULL argument. The other two are just extra clutter. Agreed. However, in the kernel, all free()s should be made as in (1), in my opinion. (2) is dangerous, and (3) would just obfuscate the code. (I know this does not apply to the commit, but should be noted) > -- > +-------------------+-------------------------------------------------+ > | Chris Costello | This system will self-destruct in five minutes. | > | chris@calldei.com | | > +-------------------+-------------------------------------------------+ Later, Bosko Milekic bmilekic@technokratis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:29:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:29:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506F437B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00ARHEBNSQ@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:28:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56894; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:27:53 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:27:52 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: To: Bosko Milekic Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001217152752.E54486@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> Sender: chris@holly.dyndns.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Bosko Milekic wrote: > Agreed. However, in the kernel, all free()s should be made as in (1), > in my opinion. (2) is dangerous, and (3) would just obfuscate the code. > (I know this does not apply to the commit, but should be noted) Yes, I agree; however free() in the kernel is an entirely different case and is not governed by the C standard. If you ask anyone in comp.lang.c, they'll tell you that our kernel is only written in a language _similar_ to C, and I can understand that, because many standard C functions behave differently in the kernel. (malloc and free come to mind, obviously.) -- +-------------------+------------------------+ | Chris Costello | Don't stop at one bug. | | chris@calldei.com | | +-------------------+------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:31:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:31:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8978F37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33DF193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:31:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHLVTL63144; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:31:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:31:29 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Chris Costello Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:17:35PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:17:35PM -0600, Chris Costello wrote: > 2. The C standard dictates that free() does nothing when it > gets a NULL argument. Well, it dictates that free(NULL) is safe -- it doesn't dictate that it ``does nothing''. Which brings me to my next comment: > The other two are just extra clutter. I suspect that the programmer writing if (data) free(data); is motivated by the wish to avoid the function call overhead if you already know darn well that there is nothing to free. In the multithreaded case, there is probably some locking going on, too. I don't blame authors of storage allocation code if they do not write free like this: void free(void *p) { if (p == NULL) return; . . . It would be silly to optimize for freeing NULL pointers. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:38:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:38:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C2337B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00BK1EQQOM@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:37:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA56956; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:36:57 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:36:56 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> Sender: chris@holly.dyndns.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > I don't blame authors of storage allocation code if they do not write > free like this: > > void > free(void *p) > { > if (p == NULL) > return; > . > . > . > > > It would be silly to optimize for freeing NULL pointers. You mean as seen in: static void ifree(void *ptr) { struct pginfo *info; int index; /* This is legal */ if (!ptr) return; . . . called by free(): void free(void *ptr) { THREAD_LOCK(); malloc_func = " in free():"; if (malloc_active++) { wrtwarning("recursive call.\n"); malloc_active--; return; } else { ifree(ptr); . . . That's how it's worked since before FreeBSD came into being. It wasn't implemented the same, but it behaved the same. -- +-------------------+----------------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | All the simple programs have been | | chris@calldei.com | written, and all the good names taken. | +-------------------+----------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 13:56:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 13:56:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DDE37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 13:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A49193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:56:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHLumm63172; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:56:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:56:48 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Chris Costello Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:36:56PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:36:56PM -0600, Chris Costello wrote: > On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > It would be silly to optimize for freeing NULL pointers. > > You mean as seen in: [snip ifree(), which checks for a NULL pointer, first thing] > called by free(): > > void > free(void *ptr) > { > THREAD_LOCK(); > malloc_func = " in free():"; > if (malloc_active++) { > wrtwarning("recursive call.\n"); > malloc_active--; > return; > } else { > ifree(ptr); > . > . > . > > That's how it's worked since before FreeBSD came into being. > It wasn't implemented the same, but it behaved the same. I may have missed your point ... or maybe you are just agreeing with what I wrote. For this particular implementation of free, you get the following for `free(foo)' when foo == NULL: function call and stack overhead for free() lock something if we are threaded pointer assignment increment compare and branch function call and stack overhead for ifree() compare and branch unwind ifree() More stuff if HAVE_UTRACE decrement unlock something unwind free() Compare to `if (foo) free(foo);' compare and branch i.e. FreeBSD's free() is not optimized for freeing NULL pointers. Not that I think it should be -- as I said, that would be silly. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 14: 6: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 14:06:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D7137B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Q00A3PG11SQ@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:05:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA57043; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:04:43 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:04:42 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> Sender: chris@holly.dyndns.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > I may have missed your point ... or maybe you are just agreeing with > what I wrote. For this particular implementation of free, you get the > following for `free(foo)' when foo == NULL: > > function call and stack overhead for free() > lock something if we are threaded > pointer assignment > increment > compare and branch > function call and stack overhead for ifree() > compare and branch > unwind ifree() > More stuff if HAVE_UTRACE > decrement > unlock something > unwind free() > FreeBSD's free() is not optimized for freeing NULL pointers. Not > that I think it should be -- as I said, that would be silly. The code I pasted _was_ FreeBSD's code, and it does optimize for freeing NULL pointers. You can still check for the pointer if you wish, before you call free(). -- +-------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | Backups? We doan *NEED* no | | chris@calldei.com | steenking baX%^~,VbKx NO CARRIER | +-------------------+-------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 14:50:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 14:50:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6275137B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.6]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15111; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ottawa.on.ca ([2002:401a:9bfe:3:2a0:24ff:feac:5c52]) by nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBHNCk813780 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBHN4Il01793; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from srengineering.com (dsl-64-192-147-97.telocity.com [64.192.147.97]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00339 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from buttercup (unknown [192.168.1.2]) by srengineering.com (SecureMAIL) with SMTP id 49EA12775C; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:50:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Emre Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:02:26 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.1.99] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: opentrax@email.com References: <200012162229.OAA10056@spammie.svbug.com> In-Reply-To: <200012162229.OAA10056@spammie.svbug.com> Subject: Re: R: [Ethereal-dev] Re: Fwd: kyxtech: freebsd outsniffed by winte ndo !!?!? Cc: dr@kyx.net, tcpdump-workers@tcpdump.org, ethereal-dev@ethereal.com, snort-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech@openbsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00121617022600.01588@buttercup> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday 16 December 2000 16:29, opentrax@email.com wrote: > On 12 Dec, Fulvio Risso wrote: > > I do not agree with you. > > Partially supported by Ms Research means that we got: > > - software > > - 1 Dell workstation > > > > That's it. > > I *strongly* suggest to ask someone before opening your mouth. > > Your tone strongly suggest your research is less than > objective. Given that questioning technical ability > is something I'll leave to someone else. It's not > in my interest, nor is it benificial to continue > discussion with yourself when you readily admit to being > open to financial influences. Hi, Can you guys take this private? or maybe end this thread? You know this crap is going to 5 other mailing lists. Thanks -- Emre Yildirim, Information Security Officer GPG KeyID 0x92FE42F4 | http://1086362465/emre-dsa.asc emre@SRENGINEERING.COM | emre.yildirim@US.ARMY.MIL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 14:50:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 14:50:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8F137B404 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:50:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.6]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15093; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ottawa.on.ca ([2002:401a:9bfe:3:2a0:24ff:feac:5c52]) by nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBHNCY813776 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBHN44w01785; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26915 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA63144; Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:51:16 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001216124841.01e27c20@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:53:22 -0500 To: opentrax@email.com, dr@kyx.net From: Dennis Subject: Re: Fwd: kyxtech: freebsd outsniffed by wintendo !!?!? Cc: tcpdump-workers@tcpdump.org, ethereal-dev@ethereal.com, snort-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <200012121436.GAA03155@spammie.svbug.com> References: <0012072118150Q.09615@smp.kyx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: mcr@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Im confused as to what difference it makes? No production server should ever use bpf for any "performance" oriented function anyway. Plus if you are doing network testing you should write to dev/null or a ram disk or better yet dump the packets rather than store them, Every disk will be different so you need to get that variable out of the equation. DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 14:51: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 14:50:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AF5037B69E for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca [209.151.24.6]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15169; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ottawa.on.ca ([2002:401a:9bfe:3:2a0:24ff:feac:5c52]) by nox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBHNCr813786 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified OK); Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBHN4P101810; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by lox.sandelman.ottawa.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14516 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 11:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 145seA-00009q-00; Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:51:22 -0700 Sender: wes@sandelman.ottawa.on.ca Message-ID: <3A36578A.F58A7F68@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 09:51:22 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fulvio Risso Cc: opentrax@email.com, dr@kyx.net, tcpdump-workers@tcpdump.org, ethereal-dev@ethereal.com, snort-devel@lists.sourceforge.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, tech@openbsd.org Subject: Re: R: [Ethereal-dev] Re: Fwd: kyxtech: freebsd outsniffed by wintendo !!?!? References: <200012121436.GAA03155@spammie.svbug.com> <000701c06453$b2e83740$14ec1fc3@ssgrr.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Fulvio Risso wrote: > > I do not agree with you. > Partially supported by Ms Research means that we got: > - software > - 1 Dell workstation > > That's it. > I *strongly* suggest to ask someone before opening your mouth. Mr. Risso, you should know that jessem (who seems to be JMJr. in masquerade) is basially a cartoon character. The rest of us realize that Microsoft sponsorship of such a web site means you get their software for the same price we NORMALLY charge for ours, i.e. free. We appreciate your frank discussion of the performance of the two systems, but I have to wonder if you tried capturing data to a ufs filesystem. I found it a little strange that your FreeBSD captures were written to a FAT filesystem, my impression is that FAT performance has never been a goal of the FreeBSD project. Have you attempted the same benchmarks using an ufs filesystem, and if so, how did it perform? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 15: 3:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 15:03:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1199137B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:03:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09244193E1; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:03:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBHN3GG63271; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:03:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:03:16 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Chris Costello Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com>; from chris@calldei.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:04:42PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:04:42PM -0600, Chris Costello wrote: > On Sunday, December 17, 2000, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > I may have missed your point ... or maybe you are just agreeing with > > what I wrote. For this particular implementation of free, you get the > > following for `free(foo)' when foo == NULL: > > > > function call and stack overhead for free() > > lock something if we are threaded > > pointer assignment > > increment > > compare and branch > > function call and stack overhead for ifree() > > compare and branch > > unwind ifree() > > More stuff if HAVE_UTRACE > > decrement > > unlock something > > unwind free() > > > FreeBSD's free() is not optimized for freeing NULL pointers. Not > > that I think it should be -- as I said, that would be silly. > > The code I pasted _was_ FreeBSD's code, Yes, I know. > and it does optimize for freeing NULL pointers. How so? Many instructions that are unnecessary are executed when you call free with a NULL pointer (read what I wrote above). To optimize for this case would be to check whether or not the pointer was NULL before doing anything else. This is kinda silly, who the hell started this thread? :-) > You can still check for the pointer if you wish, before you call > free(). Of course. And it seems a prudent thing to do if NULL pointers are not uncommon in the code path. I hate to give up a line for if (data) free(data); but neither do I care for ``if (data) free(data);''. I guess if I were writing several statements like that in a single file, I would consider the macro route (e.g. xfree). -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 15:44:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 15:44:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C75437B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-135-104.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.135.104]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27744; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:44:41 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A3D4FE8.217AEF74@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:44:40 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Preece Cc: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <5.0.0.25.1.20001218075649.01accb00@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Preece wrote: > > At 13:02 17/12/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple > >examples > >that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like > >that? > > This is turning into a FAQ, but don't worry about it. The usual answer is > to take one of the existing drivers and work out what it does. There's also Look at the DaemonNews (www.daemonnews.org), the Blueprints column. If I remember the months correctly, in the July 2000 issues there is an introduction into FreeBSD device drivers by Alexander Langner, and in June and August issues there are my articles on CAM (SCSI) drivers and ISA device drivers respectively. There also were articles on the Netgraph networking subsystem and on writing drivers as modules. I believe that these articles have been turned into sections of the Handbook as well but I'm not sure where exectly in Handbook they are. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 15:49:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 15:49:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from db.wireless.net (adsl-gte-la-216-86-194-70.mminternet.com [216.86.194.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C2A937B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from wireless.net (dbm.wireless.net [192.168.0.2]) by db.wireless.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA34345 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:35:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbutter@wireless.net) Sender: dbutter@db.wireless.net Message-ID: <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:50:19 -0800 From: Devin Butterfield X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Preece wrote: > > At 13:02 17/12/00 +0000, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple > >examples > >that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like > >that? > > This is turning into a FAQ, but don't worry about it. The usual answer is > to take one of the existing drivers and work out what it does. There's also > a script for making shell drivers under /usr/share/examples/drivers. As for > things like "how does DMA work?", "what exactly is an interrupt and what do > I do with it?" or "what's the story with memory ranges and devices then?" > then I'm afraid I can't help you there. > > In fact (to -hackers) this strikes me as one of the more fundamental > problems of free software: I would go and write/fix some device drivers > (for example the unknown phy in fxp that bothers me so much), except I > can't really get a handle on how you're supposed to start on these things. > Comments? URL's for IRQ101? Perhaps I should just stop whingeing and go > hack with it to see what happens? (probably best). > > >Jamie > > Dave > I've had to deal with this frustration too (and I still do) because there is no good documentation to speak of for writing FreeBSD device drivers. It wouldn't be so bad if there were man pages for many of the commonly used functions like rman_get_bustag(), etc. This way you could study the code of other drivers and quickly be able to identify and understand the function calls you were seeing. Instead of grumbling "what the !@#$ does that function call do?" just type "man 9 foo" or whatever. This is IMHO one of the advantages linux has over FreeBSD. You can run by your local Barnes & Noble bookstore and pick up a copy of "Linux Device Drivers" and start writing code that you actually understand. You'd think a couple of these FreeBSD wizards would get together and write "FreeBSD Device Drivers" to spare us the pain and make a little $$ while they're at it! Just my 2 cents. -- Regards, Devin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 17:57: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 17:56:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from irev.net (irev.net [63.101.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CB737B400; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:56:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b (cx443070-b.vista1.sdca.home.com [24.0.36.170]) by irev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBI1unF91183; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from data@irev.net) Message-ID: <002701c06896$1a899060$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: , Subject: DOS Emulation KLD Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:59:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C06853.0B91E960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C06853.0B91E960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've had this idea kicking around for some time, so I decided I would = throw it out there and see if anyone was interested or had any ideas. I'm wondering why we can't write basic DOS emulation as a KLD. DOS = programs are x86 code, a majority of it usually doing basic mundane = (userland acceptable) things. The only problems would come about when = interrupts were called and system memory locations were written to. It = is my understanding that under x86-32 virtual machines, such = instructions are "illegal" and therefore caught by the OS's virtual = machine driver, and emulated. I think for basic int 21h services, and = BIOS keyboard and text functions, this wouldn't be that difficult to do, = and would allow simple text based DOS programs to run under FreeBSD. = The DOS programs would see the file system in an 8.3 format, case = insensitive, and would be able to use and save files without any real = major modification. The same way VFAT handles long file names, DOS = could handle FFS file names (eg: alongfilename.txt becomes = alongf~1.txt). With the file system emulated, the basic interrupts = caught and emulated, and everything else stubbed, many simple dos = programs would function under FreeBSD. For example, although of course = we have midnight commander, there is no real reason why the original = Norton Commander could not run under FreeBSD. I'm not suggesting NC = would be better than MC, but what I am suggesting is that a simple = program like NC, which writes to the screen and manages files, should = have no problem running in the BSD environment. I know there are = emulation programs available in ports, but I was thinking along the = lines of a KLD, which is automatically loaded when a DOS exe file is = executed from the prompt. I'm going to look into this, and maybe with = some help, draft a simple implementation to see if it's feasible. Any comments or suggestions welcome. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C06853.0B91E960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've had this idea kicking around for = some time, so=20 I decided I would throw it out there and see if anyone was interested or = had any=20 ideas.
 
I'm wondering why we can't write = basic DOS=20 emulation as a KLD.  DOS programs are x86 code, a majority of it = usually=20 doing basic mundane (userland acceptable) things.  The only = problems would=20 come about when interrupts were called and system memory locations were = written=20 to.  It is my understanding that under x86-32 virtual machines, = such=20 instructions are "illegal" and therefore caught by the OS's virtual = machine=20 driver, and emulated.  I think for basic int 21h services, and BIOS = keyboard and text functions, this wouldn't be that difficult to do, and = would=20 allow simple text based DOS programs to run under FreeBSD.  The DOS = programs would see the file system in an 8.3 format, case insensitive, = and would=20 be able to use and save files without any real major modification.  = The=20 same way VFAT handles long file names, DOS could handle FFS file names = (eg:=20 alongfilename.txt becomes alongf~1.txt).  With the file system = emulated,=20 the basic interrupts caught and emulated, and everything else stubbed, = many=20 simple dos programs would function under FreeBSD.  For example, = although of=20 course we have midnight commander, there is no real reason why the = original=20 Norton Commander could not run under FreeBSD.  I'm not suggesting = NC would=20 be better than MC, but what I am suggesting is that a simple program = like NC,=20 which writes to the screen and manages files, should have no problem = running in=20 the BSD environment.  I know there are emulation programs available = in=20 ports, but I was thinking along the lines of a KLD, which is = automatically=20 loaded when a DOS exe file is executed from the prompt.  I'm going = to look=20 into this, and maybe with some help, draft a simple implementation to = see if=20 it's feasible.
 
Any comments or suggestions = welcome.
 
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C06853.0B91E960-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 18: 4:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 18:04:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (dyna225-150.nada.kth.se [130.237.225.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BDF37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:04:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id DAA67881; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:04:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from assar) Sender: assar@assaris.sics.se From: assar@FreeBSD.ORG To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) References: <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> Date: 18 Dec 2000 03:04:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine"'s message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:15:09 -0600" Message-ID: <5l66kia3i0.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 23 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > What do folks think about > > 1) if (data) > free(data); > > versus > > 2) free(data); > > versus > > 3) #define xfree(x) if ((x) != NULL) free(x); > xfree(data); (2), unless you can show that you actually win something by the optimization in (1), and if you repeat it enough I would vote for doing an inline function similar to the one in (3). This is of course for user-level free since kernel free has different parameters. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 18:47:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 18:47:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu (HURLAME.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.189.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68A2137B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from magus@localhost) by hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBI2lRK19368; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:47:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from magus) Sender: magus@hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu To: Devin Butterfield Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> From: Nat Lanza Date: 17 Dec 2000 21:47:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: Devin Butterfield's message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:50:19 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Devin Butterfield writes: > This is IMHO one of the advantages linux has over FreeBSD. You can run > by your local Barnes & Noble bookstore and pick up a copy of "Linux > Device Drivers" and start writing code that you actually understand. It's less of an advantage than you might think. Kernel internals are moving targets, especially in the Linux world, and it doesn't take very much time for a book to become outdated. For example, when I started writing drivers for Linux 2.2, all I could find was books that covered 2.0 and early versions of 2.1. Nothing documented the current kernel, and because of the drastic changes between versions, much of the documentation for 2.0 was misleading. --nat -- nat lanza --------------------- research programmer, parallel data lab, cmu scs magus@cs.cmu.edu -------------------------------- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~magus/ there are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths -- alfred north whitehead To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 20:59:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 20:59:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE14A37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 20:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBI4xUs05478; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:59:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA87790; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:59:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012180459.VAA87790@harmony.village.org> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 15:15:09 CST." <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:59:30 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: : What do folks think about : : 1) if (data) : free(data); : : versus : : 2) free(data); : : versus : : 3) #define xfree(x) if ((x) != NULL) free(x); : xfree(data); Number 2. ANSI-C (aka c89) requires that free(NULL) work. We shouldn't go out of our way to pander to those machines where it doesn't. Number 1 is my second choice assuming for some reason number 2 isn't an option. Number 3 is the same as #2, imho, except that it gratuioutsly uglifies the code by the introduction of a non-standard API and an additional macro. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 21: 2: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 21:02:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A62D37B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBI51xs05493; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:01:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA87838; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:01:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: Chris Costello , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:03:16 CST." <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:01:58 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: : I hate to give up a line for : : if (data) : free(data); : : but neither do I care for ``if (data) free(data);''. I guess if I : were writing several statements like that in a single file, I would : consider the macro route (e.g. xfree). No offense, but this strikes me as a premature, sub-micro optimization. I doubt that you could measure any difference between if (foo) free(foo); and free(foo); in the real world. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 21:51:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 21:51:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C64A137B402 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:51:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 147seG-0000CH-00; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:15:44 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3D9D80.61F1EAFC@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:15:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Devin Butterfield Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Devin Butterfield wrote: > > This is IMHO one of the advantages linux has over FreeBSD. You can run > by your local Barnes & Noble bookstore and pick up a copy of "Linux > Device Drivers" and start writing code that you actually understand. And they'll run fine in Linux 2.0.43pre11 or something like that. All of those books are out of date by the time they hit the shelf in your bookstore, and given the slew rate of Linux kernel APIs, finding any of them useful seems pretty doubtful. Well-written man pages for FreeBSD would certainly be a boon, but printed books wouldn't really help that much. There are books available on writing BSD device drivers, but the kernel APIs have moved on since then, as you've noticed. Perhaps a good project for someone who wants to under- stand FreeBSD device drivers would be to update the section 9 man pages? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 21:51:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 21:51:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F78C37B402 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 147s7I-0000Bi-00; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:41:40 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3D9584.3877BA39@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:41:40 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Fumerola Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type References: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001217014337.C72273@elvis.mu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 06:37:56PM -0800, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > It's hardly arbitrary, though the jury's still out as to whether it's > > misguided or not. You may remember that Apple bought a little company > > called NeXT a few years back. Well, that company's people had a lot > > to do with the OS design of OS X and let's not forget the design of > > NeXTStep. > > ... and how currently popular they[NeXT] are. ;-> Yeah, about as popular as, say, FreeBSD? Bill, you know popularity and even success in the market have little to do with competence. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 21:51:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 21:51:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E1337B404 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 147sCX-0000Bn-00; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:47:05 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3D96C9.FE121BF5@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:47:05 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Andrew Reilly , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type References: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious > > microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never > > understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a > > QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but > > how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of > > BSD as well as the top half? > > That's actually a much better question and one I can't really answer. > > One theory might be that the NeXT people were simply Microkernel > bigots for no particularly well-justified reason and that is simply > that. Another theory might be that they were able to deal with the > machine-dependent parts of Mach far more easily given its > comparatively minimalist design and given their pre-existing expertise > with it. Another theory, sort of related to the previous one, is that > Apple has some sort of plans for the future which they're not > currently sharing where Mach plays some unique role. Does the older MacOS compatibility mode (is this the "blue box"?) run on the BSD-Lite server, or directly on Mach? That seems a likely starting point. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 21:52: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 21:52:03 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492FB37B402 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 147sai-0000CC-00; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:12:04 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3D9CA4.B34D5144@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:12:04 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Babkin Cc: David Preece , heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <5.0.0.25.1.20001218075649.01accb00@pop3.i4free.co.nz> <3A3D4FE8.217AEF74@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sergey Babkin wrote: > > David Preece wrote: > > > > At 13:02 17/12/00 +0000, you wrote: > > >Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple > > >examples > > >that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like > > >that? > > > > This is turning into a FAQ, but don't worry about it. The usual answer is > > to take one of the existing drivers and work out what it does. There's also > > Look at the DaemonNews (www.daemonnews.org), the Blueprints column. > If I remember the months correctly, in the July 2000 issues there is > an introduction into FreeBSD device drivers by Alexander Langner, > and in June and August issues there are my articles on CAM (SCSI) > drivers and ISA device drivers respectively. There also were articles > on the Netgraph networking subsystem and on writing drivers as modules. > I believe that these articles have been turned into sections of the > Handbook as well but I'm not sure where exectly in Handbook they are. It's about time for an article index at DN, isn't it? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Dec 17 22:47:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 17 22:47:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFB437B400 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI6lbf26017; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:47:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Warner Losh Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 21:59:30 MST." <200012180459.VAA87790@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:47:37 +0100 Message-ID: <26015.977122057@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012180459.VAA87790@harmony.village.org>, Warner Losh writes: >Number 2. ANSI-C (aka c89) requires that free(NULL) work. We >shouldn't go out of our way to pander to those machines where it >doesn't. The reason why this is so is that it is legal for realloc(ptr, 0): to return either a NULL pointer or a real pointer, and to remain consistent, the following sequence should always be legal: ptr = malloc(foo); ptr = realloc(foo, bar); free(ptr); -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 1:49: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 01:49:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E40037B404 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 770E9239A42; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:49:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:49:03 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: Sergey Babkin , David Preece , heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Message-ID: <20001218014903.M30802@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <5.0.0.25.1.20001218075649.01accb00@pop3.i4free.co.nz> <3A3D4FE8.217AEF74@bellatlantic.net> <3A3D9CA4.B34D5144@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A3D9CA4.B34D5144@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:12:04PM -0700 Organization: daemonnews Sender: gsutter@zer0.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2000-12-17 22:12 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Sergey Babkin wrote: > > David Preece wrote: > > > At 13:02 17/12/00 +0000, you wrote: > > > >Does anyone have any good tips to get started / HowTo's, or some simple > > > >examples > > > >that will give me knowledge like the PC Speaker or something simple like > > > >that? > > > > > > This is turning into a FAQ, but don't worry about it. The usual answer is > > > to take one of the existing drivers and work out what it does. There's > > > > Look at the DaemonNews (www.daemonnews.org), the Blueprints column. > > If I remember the months correctly, in the July 2000 issues there is > > an introduction into FreeBSD device drivers by Alexander Langner, > > and in June and August issues there are my articles on CAM (SCSI) > > drivers and ISA device drivers respectively. There also were articles > > on the Netgraph networking subsystem and on writing drivers as modules. > > I believe that these articles have been turned into sections of the > > Handbook as well but I'm not sure where exectly in Handbook they are. > > It's about time for an article index at DN, isn't it? Yes. As soon as any of us can find time to do the work. We need to get our ezine into our database. It involves a bit of scripting, some searching through email archives, categorization, then the import. All of it's just text/html now; we weren't very thoughtful at first. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Fnord. mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 2: 0: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 01:59:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gallions-reach.inpharmatica.co.uk (gallions-reach.inpharmatica.co.uk [193.115.214.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77F937B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 01:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.inpharmatica.co.uk (euston.inpharmatica.co.uk [193.115.214.6]) by gallions-reach.inpharmatica.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA53171; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:08 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@inpharmatica.co.uk) Received: from w-hampstead.inpharmatica.co.uk (root@w-hampstead.inpharmatica.co.uk [192.168.122.87]) by mailhost.inpharmatica.co.uk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBI9x6j87982; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:06 GMT (envelope-from m.seaman@inpharmatica.co.uk) Received: from inpharmatica.co.uk (matthew@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by w-hampstead.inpharmatica.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26319; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:05 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: w-hampstead.inpharmatica.co.uk: Host matthew@localhost [127.0.0.1] claimed to be inpharmatica.co.uk Sender: m.seaman@inpharmatica.co.uk Message-ID: <3A3DDFE9.5AD693B6@inpharmatica.co.uk> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:05 +0000 From: Matthew Seaman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17-desktop i586) X-Accept-Language: en-GB, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: Andrew Reilly , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type References: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious > > microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? I've never > > understood the point of that sort of use. It makes sense for a > > QNX or GNU/Hurd or minix or Amoeba style of architecture, but > > how does Mach help Apple, instead of using the bottom half of > > BSD as well as the top half? > > That's actually a much better question and one I can't really answer. > > One theory might be that the NeXT people were simply Microkernel > bigots for no particularly well-justified reason and that is simply > that. Another theory might be that they were able to deal with the > machine-dependent parts of Mach far more easily given its > comparatively minimalist design and given their pre-existing expertise > with it. Another theory, sort of related to the previous one, is that > Apple has some sort of plans for the future which they're not > currently sharing where Mach plays some unique role. As I remember, way back in the mists of 1990 when I first encountered a NeXT box, one of the principal reasons for selecting the Mach 2.x micro kernel was "mach messaging". This was a unified mechanism for almost all IPC both within one host or distributed over a network, where eg. sockets (netork or unix domain), pipes etc. were seen as abstractions of the core messaging function. This fitted very well with the general OO design philosophy of the company. If anyone has access to a copy of the socket(2) man page from any NeXTSTEP version, I dimly remember there being an informative paragraph about this point. Whilst Mach messaging was not commonly used directly in the Unix userland which was pretty much stock BSD 4.3, it was very important in the AppKit --- NeXT's real stock in trade. Matthew -- Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse. Dr. Matthew Seaman, Inpharmatica Ltd, 60 Charlotte St, London, W1T 2NU Tel: +44 20 7631 4644 x229 Fax: +44 20 7631 4844 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 2:31:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 02:31:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26A337B6A0; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIAgAQ07545; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012181042.eBIAgAQ07545@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DOS Emulation KLD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2000 17:59:05 PST." <002701c06896$1a899060$aa240018@cx443070b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 02:42:10 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Any comments or suggestions welcome. Fix doscmd, which does the emulation in userland (which is even better than running as a KLD). -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 5:39:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 05:39:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5679A37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 05:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nairobi-58.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.50.250] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 1480Vo-000142-00; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:39:32 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 04:33:51 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Devin Butterfield , hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> <3A3D9D80.61F1EAFC@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Devin Butterfield wrote: > > > > This is IMHO one of the advantages linux has over FreeBSD. You can run > > by your local Barnes & Noble bookstore and pick up a copy of "Linux > > Device Drivers" and start writing code that you actually understand. > > And they'll run fine in Linux 2.0.43pre11 or something like that. All > of those books are out of date by the time they hit the shelf in your > bookstore, and given the slew rate of Linux kernel APIs, finding any > of them useful seems pretty doubtful. > > Well-written man pages for FreeBSD would certainly be a boon, but printed > books wouldn't really help that much. There are books available on > writing BSD device drivers, but the kernel APIs have moved on since then, > as you've noticed. Perhaps a good project for someone who wants to under- > stand FreeBSD device drivers would be to update the section 9 man pages? If people would keep the samples in /usr/share/examples/drivers up to date then it would be a lot easier... I have the pci/isa driver skeleton pretty up-to-date, but it doesn't have any DMA example code, nor does it have any sample code for pccard or cardbus . > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 6:33: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 06:32:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gate.trident-uk.co.uk (mail.trident-uk.co.uk [195.166.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3B437B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.207.93.139] by gate.trident-uk.co.uk for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org id OAA11277; Mon Dec 18 14:30:44 2000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:35:43 +0000 Subject: Re: Message-ID: <20001218143543.C593@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> References: <78784D0E83CDD411BB580000D11ABE920C88BA@btcexc01.btc.adaptec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <78784D0E83CDD411BB580000D11ABE920C88BA@btcexc01.btc.adaptec.com>; from scott_long@btc.adaptec.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 13:10:52 +0000 X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 162 From: Jamie Heckford Reply-To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Bad-To: "\"Long, Scott\"" Apparently-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, after a cold boot. The machine is dual boot Windows ME (came with the laptop, need it for DVD!!) The output of dmesg is below - should I turn of Plug and Play in the BIOS? Dmesg ----- Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE #2: Sun Dec 17 14:03:20 GMT 2000 jamie@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk:/usr/src/sys/compile/FREEFIRE Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: Pentium III/Pentium III Xeon/Celeron (551.25-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x686 Stepping = 6 Features=0x383f9ff real memory = 134152192 (131008K bytes) avail memory = 127475712 (124488K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc031f000. Preloaded userconfig_script "/boot/kernel.conf" at 0xc031f09c. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled md0: Malloc disk npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pcib1: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib1 pci1: at 1.0 isab0: at device 7.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0x1040-0x104f at device 7.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 pci0: at 7.2 chip1: port 0x2180-0x218f at device 7.3 on pci0 pcic-pci0: irq 0 at device 8.0 on pci0 pcic-pci1: irq 0 at device 8.1 on pci0 pci0: (vendor=0x125d, dev=0x199a) at 12.0 fxp0: port 0x1000-0x103f mem 0xe8000000-0xe80fffff,0xe8100000-0xe8100fff irq 11 at device 13.0 o n pci0 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:00:f0:65:cf:ef pci0: (vendor=0x11c1, dev=0x0444) at 13.1 fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 atkbd0: flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 psm0: irq 12 on atkbdc0 psm0: model Generic PS/2 mouse, device ID 0 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> pcic0: at port 0x3e0 iomem 0xd0000 on isa0 pcic0: Polling mode pccard0: on pcic0 pccard1: on pcic0 sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1 at port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa0 sio1: type 16550A ppc0: at port 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa0 ppc0: Generic chipset (ECP/PS2/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode ppc0: FIFO with 16/16/8 bytes threshold ppi0: on ppbus0 lpt0: on ppbus0 lpt0: Interrupt-driven port plip0: on ppbus0 pccard: card inserted, slot 0 ata1-slave: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr ata1-slave: identify failed ad0: 9590MB [19485/16/63] at ata0-master UDMA33 acd0: DVD-ROM at ata1-master using PIO4 Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad0s2a On 2000.12.18 13:10:52 +0000 "Long, Scott" wrote: > Very odd. Did this happen after a cold boot of the machine? Are you > running any other OS's? It might help if you could send the output of > dmesg. > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk > Sent: 12/17/00 6:33 AM > > Hi, > > I got hold of you driver, compiled and installed it. > > After booting, I logged in as root and typed: > > # kldload snd_maestro3 > > but this returned the following error message: > > pcm0: at device 12.0 on pci0 > pcm0: Unable to map i/o space > device_probe_and_attach: pcm0 attach returned 6 > > Any ideas on what I am doing wrong?? > > Any help appreciated > > Jamie > > On 2000.12.15 16:47:16 +0000 "Long, Scott" wrote: > > Myself and Darrell Anderson are working on a driver. Check out > > http://people.freebsd.org/~scottl/maestro3 for mine or > > http://www.cs.duke.edu/~anderson/freebsd/maestro3xxx for his. The PCI > id > > mentioned by the original poster (0x199a125d) is supported by this > > driver, > > though I haven't tested it. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Michel Talon [mailto:michel@lpthe.jussieu.fr] > > > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 9:42 AM > > > To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org > > > Subject: Re: ESS Sound Driver > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 04:10:09PM +0000, Jamie Heckford wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Could anyone offer any guidance on getting the following > > > sound card to work? > > > > > > > > It is in a Samsung GT8700 laptop - and I am using FreeBSD > > > 4.2-RELEASE. > > > > > > > > Windows identifies the card as an ESS Maestro PCI Audio > > > (WDM) - IRQ 5 > > > > > > > I have seen recently a HP laptop with a maestro 3 audio > > > card. I have been > > > able to run the sound card only with the Alsa drivers under Linux. > > > Apparently the FreeBSD drivers are able to run only the > > > maestro 2 and 2E. > > > > > > -- > > > Michel Talon > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 6:35:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 06:35:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4D637B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 06:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIEYW521580; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <200012181434.eBIEYW521580@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Matthew Seaman Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Andrew Reilly , Patryk Zadarnowski , Tony Finch , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Image-URL: http://www.transsys.com/louie/images/louie-mail.jpg From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: kernel type References: <6134.977051878@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3DDFE9.5AD693B6@inpharmatica.co.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:05 GMT." <3A3DDFE9.5AD693B6@inpharmatica.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:34:32 -0500 Sender: louie@TransSys.COM Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As I remember, way back in the mists of 1990 when I first encountered a NeXT > box, one of the principal reasons for selecting the Mach 2.x micro kernel was > "mach messaging". This was a unified mechanism for almost all IPC both within > one host or distributed over a network, where eg. sockets (netork or unix > domain), pipes etc. were seen as abstractions of the core messaging function. > This fitted very well with the general OO design philosophy of the company. > If anyone has access to a copy of the socket(2) man page from any NeXTSTEP > version, I dimly remember there being an informative paragraph about this > point. This is mostly true, but the Mach kernel they shipped definately wasn't what I'd call a "micro kernel". It was based on the earlier CMU monolithic 4.3BSD Mach kernel. At the time, we had a source license for their kernel (at least most of; not device drivers, feh!), and this was very clear. > Whilst Mach messaging was not commonly used directly in the Unix userland > which was pretty much stock BSD 4.3, it was very important in the AppKit --- > NeXT's real stock in trade. In fact, the IPC between the appkik/user processes and the Display PostScript server really made use of this, could result in very high performance when moving large bitmapped images, etc. I would love to have a UI available these days; it was worlds better than X at the time, and frankly, still better than what we have today. The afterstep and WindowMaker guys have made some progress emulating the visual interface. But can you imagine trying to run GNOME or KDE on a 25Mhz 68030 today? louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 8:22:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 08:22:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F85137B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA69798; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:24:28 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001218112445.02af9400@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:25:56 -0500 To: "Koster, K.J." , "'dg@root.com'" , "Koster, K.J." From: Dennis Subject: RE: yet another unsupported PHY in fxp driver Cc: "'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'" , "Metz, E.T." In-Reply-To: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E4522026D7A89@l04.research.kpn. com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Any word on the latest "Unsupported PHY" , or info that will help me or someone else fix it? DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 8:30:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 08:30:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.research.kpn.com (hermes.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5C037B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from l04.research.kpn.com (l04.research.kpn.com [139.63.192.204]) by research.kpn.com (PMDF V5.2-31 #42699) with ESMTP id <01JXUW5YW4TI00171A@research.kpn.com> for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:30:27 +0100 Received: by l04.research.kpn.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:30:25 +0100 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:30:24 +0100 From: "Metz, E.T." Subject: RE: yet another unsupported PHY in fxp driver To: 'Dennis' Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list' , "Metz, E.T." , "Koster, K.J." , "'dg@root.com'" , "Koster, K.J." Message-id: <59063B5B4D98D311BC0D0001FA7E45220316A6E9@l04.research.kpn.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As far as I know there is no progress yet. I understood from the replies (and searching the archive) that Intel has the key to the solution, in that they need to provide the required information on what has changed in the rev-8 cards. I'm not sure what else can be done, can there? Possible suggestion: treat the newest Intel card as one of "known" past cards, and see how it works?? cheers, Eduard > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis [mailto:dennis@etinc.com] > Sent: maandag 18 december 2000 17:26 > To: Koster, K.J.; 'dg@root.com'; Koster, K.J. > Cc: 'FreeBSD Hackers mailing list'; Metz, E.T. > Subject: RE: yet another unsupported PHY in fxp driver > > > Any word on the latest "Unsupported PHY" , or info that will > help me or > someone else fix it? > > DB > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 8:45:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 08:45:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from 214.norrgarden.se (214.norrgarden.se [195.100.133.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D56537B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 08:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cj@localhost) by 214.norrgarden.se (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBIGjbS00758; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:45:37 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from cj) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:45:36 +0100 From: Carl Johan Madestrand To: questions@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Swedish accent key Message-ID: <20001218174536.A719@214.norrgarden.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: cj@214.norrgarden.se Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Im using FreeBSD 4.2 STABLE and I have a problem. I cant get the swedish accent character to work. Pressing the key to the left of the backspace key on my swedish keyboard followed by e should produce it but it doesnt. If I press alt+gr+*/'+e I will get something that looks like it but unfortunately its reversed. Any ideas on how to get this working? Thanks -- Carl Johan Madestrand LoRd_CJ on IRC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 9:32: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 09:32:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B438937B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIHW5s08041; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:32:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA91834; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:32:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012181732.KAA91834@harmony.village.org> To: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Cc: Wes Peters , Devin Butterfield , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 04:33:51 PST." <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> References: <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> <3A3D9D80.61F1EAFC@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:32:04 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> Julian Elischer writes: : I have the pci/isa driver skeleton pretty up-to-date, but it doesn't : have any DMA example code, nor does it have any sample code for : pccard or cardbus . Aren't there two kinds of DMA that we need to worry about? Those that are "isadma" where you have to program the DMA controller, and the more conventional DMA where the device becomes the bus master and the bytes just appear in host memory? Also, cardbus should be a 1 liner. I'll add that to your examples. Do you want to review them, or can I just do this and any other tweaks that might be necessary? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 9:49:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 09:49:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from irev.net (irev.net [63.101.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D65237B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b (cx443070-b.vista1.sdca.home.com [24.0.36.170]) by irev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBIHmrF02952; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:48:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from data@irev.net) Message-ID: <002201c0691b$1cd1d140$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Mike Smith" Cc: , References: <200012181042.eBIAgAQ07545@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: DOS Emulation KLD Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:51:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Any comments or suggestions welcome. > > Fix doscmd, which does the emulation in userland (which is even better > than running as a KLD). What's wrong with doscmd ? I hadn't noticed this one used BSD filesystems in addition to image files. That was my #1 issue with some of the other emulators. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 9:57:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 09:57:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mothra.ecs.csus.edu (unknown [130.86.76.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A16337B402; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:57:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mothra.ecs.csus.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIJMxX13729; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:22:58 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@mothra.ecs.csus.edu To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: <200012161822.HAA03654@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: # Which list would be more appropriate for asking advice on designing a # mail processing strategy for FreshPorts 2 (i.e. processing all of cvs-all, # not just the ports)? # # I'm looking for recommendations and guidance on how to capture the # incoming messages and process them one at a time. As opposed to # starting a separate perl script for each message (which is the the # existing strategy and is usually fine, except when large numbers of # messages turn up in a short period of time). If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the queue. If the problem is load then another approach would be to heavily nice(1) the perl script the is launched when a commit mail comes in. *********************************************************** * Joseph Scott The Office Of Water Programs * * joseph@randomnetworks.com joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 9:59: 8 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 09:59:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kci.kciLink.com (kci.kciLink.com [204.117.82.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CACEA37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from yertle.kciLink.com (yertle.kciLink.com [208.184.13.195]) by kci.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CD7C9BF; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from onceler.kciLink.com (onceler.kciLink.com [208.184.13.196]) by yertle.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01C92E443; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from khera@localhost) by onceler.kciLink.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBIHwwc51619; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:58:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khera) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14910.20578.512135.887887@onceler.kciLink.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:58:58 -0500 To: Joseph Scott Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: References: <200012161822.HAA03654@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.86 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "JSF" == Joseph Scott writes: JSF> If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in JSF> (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some JSF> sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the JSF> queue. Or, you could use a mailer system that does it for you. You can configure postfix to deliver at most N messages to a specific local destination at once, the rest getting queued in the local mail spool. If you set this limit to 1, you'd avoid the need for any additional file locking as well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:21: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:20:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1500437B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:20:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18715; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:20:36 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012181820.HAA18715@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Joseph Scott Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:21:00 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: <200012161822.HAA03654@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Dec 2000, at 11:22, Joseph Scott wrote: > > On Sun, 17 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: > > # Which list would be more appropriate for asking advice on designing a > # mail processing strategy for FreshPorts 2 (i.e. processing all of > # cvs-all, not just the ports)? > # > # I'm looking for recommendations and guidance on how to capture the > # incoming messages and process them one at a time. As opposed to > # starting a separate perl script for each message (which is the the > # existing strategy and is usually fine, except when large numbers of > # messages turn up in a short period of time). > > If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in > (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some > sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the queue. Thanks. Since posting my original message, the proposed design has drifted to this strategy (which I posted to the FreshPorts develop list last night): On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: > ok folks, brain pick time: I'm thinking about redoing the FreshPorts > mail-database interface. At present, each incoming email from cvs-all > initiates a separate perl script. Not nice if you get say 100 emails all > in 1 minute for some reason. Now I'm thinking of using procmail to > dump each email to a separate file on disk. Then processing each > file thus freeing up the MTA ASAP. Sound good so far? > > Suggestions? Ideas? As for processing the files once they are on disk, I like the idea of processing the messages ASAP. Therefore, I'd like to have a daemon / script sitting there running all the time. This process is notified when a new message arrives (in the above case, that would be part of the procmail delivery process). This process would then "wake up" and process all available message files one at a time. Perhaps moving each processed file to an archive. When there are no more message files, it would stop and wait to be notified again. > If the problem is load then another approach would be to heavily > nice(1) the perl script the is launched when a commit mail comes in. That's already done. It's just the volume which can occur. If a large number of messages arrive at once. Starting up 50 perl jobs on the box can stress it a bit. It also makes better sense to process the messages in the order in which they arrive rather than concurrently. A side effect will be less change of database lockouts or conflicts during updates. cheers -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:22:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:22:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2508537B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18724; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:22:45 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012181822.HAA18724@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Vivek Khera Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:23:11 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <14910.20578.512135.887887@onceler.kciLink.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:58, Vivek Khera wrote: > >>>>> "JSF" == Joseph Scott writes: > > JSF> If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in > JSF> (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some > JSF> sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the > JSF> queue. > > Or, you could use a mailer system that does it for you. You can > configure postfix to deliver at most N messages to a specific local > destination at once, the rest getting queued in the local mail spool. > If you set this limit to 1, you'd avoid the need for any additional > file locking as well. Thanks. Offline, someone also suggested exim, which contains a perl interpreter. But I would rather develop an MTA independent solution. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:28:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:28:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mothra.ecs.csus.edu (unknown [130.86.76.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED73F37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mothra.ecs.csus.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIJs6X48953; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:54:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:54:05 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@mothra.ecs.csus.edu To: Vivek Khera Cc: Joseph Scott , Dan Langille , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: <14910.20578.512135.887887@onceler.kciLink.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Vivek Khera wrote: # >>>>> "JSF" == Joseph Scott writes: # # JSF> If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in # JSF> (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some # JSF> sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the # JSF> queue. # # Or, you could use a mailer system that does it for you. You can # configure postfix to deliver at most N messages to a specific local # destination at once, the rest getting queued in the local mail spool. # If you set this limit to 1, you'd avoid the need for any additional # file locking as well. How does postfix determine that a message has been delivered though? From reading Dan's first message, my though was the problem was doing the processing of the commit, all the db stuff, which would happen after the perl script had already accepted delivery of the message. *********************************************************** * Joseph Scott The Office Of Water Programs * * joseph@randomnetworks.com joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:31:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:31:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C644E37B69B for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD7E193E1; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:31:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBIIV8N65161; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:31:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:31:08 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Warner Losh Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:01:58PM -0700 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:01:58PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > : I hate to give up a line for > : > : if (data) > : free(data); > : > : but neither do I care for ``if (data) free(data);''. I guess if I > : were writing several statements like that in a single file, I would > : consider the macro route (e.g. xfree). > > No offense, but this strikes me as a premature, sub-micro > optimization. None taken. It is however a simple and safe optimization, with no apparent downsides. It has the same attraction as using bit shifts instead of multiplication/division, or saving the value from a function call that will be needed again later, even if you know the function call is trivial. > I doubt that you could measure any difference between > if (foo) free(foo); > and free(foo); > > in the real world. This is probably correct for most applications. Nevertheless, I tend to write it that way at times -- maybe because it seems so natural to me to ask `do I need to free this thing?' -- and that gets translated directly to code. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:37:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:37:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mothra.ecs.csus.edu (unknown [130.86.76.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7EE37B69D; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mothra.ecs.csus.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIK3JX52805; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:03:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:03:19 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@mothra.ecs.csus.edu To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: <200012181820.HAA18715@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: # > If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in # > (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some # > sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the queue. # # Thanks. Since posting my original message, the proposed design has # drifted to this strategy (which I posted to the FreshPorts develop list last # night): # # On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: # # > ok folks, brain pick time: I'm thinking about redoing the FreshPorts # > mail-database interface. At present, each incoming email from cvs-all # > initiates a separate perl script. Not nice if you get say 100 emails all # > in 1 minute for some reason. Now I'm thinking of using procmail to # > dump each email to a separate file on disk. Then processing each # > file thus freeing up the MTA ASAP. Sound good so far? # > # > Suggestions? Ideas? # # As for processing the files once they are on disk, I like the idea of # processing the messages ASAP. Therefore, I'd like to have a daemon / # script sitting there running all the time. This process is notified when a # new message arrives (in the above case, that would be part of the # procmail delivery process). This process would then "wake up" and # process all available message files one at a time. Perhaps moving each # processed file to an archive. When there are no more message files, it # would stop and wait to be notified again. # # > If the problem is load then another approach would be to heavily # > nice(1) the perl script the is launched when a commit mail comes in. # # That's already done. It's just the volume which can occur. If a large # number of messages arrive at once. Starting up 50 perl jobs on the box # can stress it a bit. It also makes better sense to process the # messages in the order in which they arrive rather than concurrently. A # side effect will be less change of database lockouts or conflicts during # updates. On item that may help on this then is checking two things every time you add something to the queue to help balance things out, the amount of time since the last time the queue was processed and the number of items in the queue. Let's say, at a minimum you want the queue to run every 30 minutes. However, if there are a large number of commits in the queue, you may want to be able ramp up to queue processing as quickly as every 5 minutes. If there's only two items in the queue though, there's really no reason to run it every 5 minutes. Just some thoughts. *********************************************************** * Joseph Scott The Office Of Water Programs * * joseph@randomnetworks.com joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:40:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:40:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9548737B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIIehs08404; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:40:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA92561; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:40:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:31:08 CST." <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:40:43 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: : None taken. It is however a simple and safe optimization, with no : apparent downsides. It has the same attraction as using bit shifts : instead of multiplication/division, or saving the value from a function : call that will be needed again later, even if you know the function call : is trivial. You are trading a test against zero and code obfuscation against a function call. The function call is typically much less than even a multiplication or division would be. You get clearer, easier to read code that is smaller by allowing free to do its job and not trying to optimize things. : > I doubt that you could measure any difference between : > if (foo) free(foo); : > and free(foo); : > : > in the real world. : : This is probably correct for most applications. : : Nevertheless, I tend to write it that way at times -- maybe because it : seems so natural to me to ask `do I need to free this thing?' -- and : that gets translated directly to code. I guess I tend to think 'This needs to be freed, let free deal with the details so I won't have to be bothered with them.' Function abstraction is supposed to be about hiding details that don't matter. And in my opinion, this is one of those details. I've also seen code written where this sort of thing was taken to an obscene degree where you'd have 10-30 layers all making the same validity tests to ensure the data was really really good when it was impossible to get down more than a layer or two and have it be bad. Before you say that more tests are good, I cleaned up this mess and was able to reduce 5 overlay regions (yes, 5!) on a pdp-11 fortran monster due to systematically eliminating them (well, I ifdef'd them out (we wrote a fortran preprocessor, but that's another story)). The code went from something like 500k to 225k by removing the redundant tests through all the layers. I know this is an extreme example, but it does go to show that sometimes these tests can be rather signficicant. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:43:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:43:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A845D37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18856; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:43:06 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012181843.HAA18856@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Joseph Scott Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:43:29 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: <200012181820.HAA18715@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:03, Joseph Scott wrote: > Let's say, at a minimum you want the queue to run every 30 > minutes. However, if there are a large number of commits in the queue, > you may want to be able ramp up to queue processing as quickly as every 5 > minutes. If there's only two items in the queue though, there's really no > reason to run it every 5 minutes. I would rather process the queue as soon as a new message arrives. Rather than have a message sit there. Hence, the "notification" of a waiting process: OI! you got mail.... > Just some thoughts. appreciated. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:45:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:45:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mothra.ecs.csus.edu (unknown [130.86.76.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75ABD37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mothra.ecs.csus.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIKBQX52848; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: scottj@mothra.ecs.csus.edu To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: <200012181843.HAA18856@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: # On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:03, Joseph Scott wrote: # # > Let's say, at a minimum you want the queue to run every 30 # > minutes. However, if there are a large number of commits in the queue, # > you may want to be able ramp up to queue processing as quickly as every 5 # > minutes. If there's only two items in the queue though, there's really no # > reason to run it every 5 minutes. # # I would rather process the queue as soon as a new message arrives. # Rather than have a message sit there. Hence, the "notification" of a # waiting process: OI! you got mail.... Then my original answer should have simply been, find a box that will host FreshPorts that can take the load of processing 5000 commit mails in a minute. :-) # # > Just some thoughts. # # appreciated. *********************************************************** * Joseph Scott The Office Of Water Programs * * joseph@randomnetworks.com joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:53:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:53:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F289C37B404; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18954; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:53:27 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012181853.HAA18954@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Joseph Scott Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:53:51 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: <200012181843.HAA18856@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:11, Joseph Scott wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Dan Langille wrote: > > # On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:03, Joseph Scott wrote: > # > # > Let's say, at a minimum you want the queue to run every 30 > # > minutes. However, if there are a large number of commits in the queue, > # > you may want to be able ramp up to queue processing as quickly as every 5 > # > minutes. If there's only two items in the queue though, there's really no > # > reason to run it every 5 minutes. > # > # I would rather process the queue as soon as a new message arrives. > # Rather than have a message sit there. Hence, the "notification" of a > # waiting process: OI! you got mail.... > > Then my original answer should have simply been, find a box that > will host FreshPorts that can take the load of processing 5000 commit > mails in a minute. :-) Good idea! Sorry, but after reading my own message, I've seen it's ambiguous. In my previous message, by "process the queue as soon as a new message arrives", I was referring to the procmail scenario mentioned in a prior message. That is, have procmail deliever each email to a separate file, and process *that* file into FreshPorts as soon as it arrives. In that context, the "queue" is the files on disk. With this strategy, I'm sure a P100 could handle things. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 10:59:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 10:59:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770A037B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBIIxCS46046; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:59:12 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012181859.eBIIxCS46046@earth.backplane.com> To: Warner Losh Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) References: <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :: None taken. It is however a simple and safe optimization, with no :: apparent downsides. It has the same attraction as using bit shifts :: instead of multiplication/division, or saving the value from a function :: call that will be needed again later, even if you know the function call :: is trivial. : :You are trading a test against zero and code obfuscation against a :function call. The function call is typically much less than even a :multiplication or division would be. You get clearer, easier to read :code that is smaller by allowing free to do its job and not trying to :optimize things. Considering that most people do not call free() with NULL, I don't see much of a reason to optimize the NULL case. Hell, if it were up to me I'd seg fault on trying to free a NULL pointer, but we have to follow the manual page here. The libc malloc/free code assumes that the static ifree() function tests for NULL. To make this change properly you would have to remove the NULL test in ifree() and make sure all callers of ifree() pass only non-NULL pointers, *then* check for your NULL pointer in free(). It would be entirely improper to check for NULL twice, at two different subroutine levels. Optimizations have two sides to them. On the one hand they can make code go faster. On the otherhand they can turn once-readable code into a tangle. The rule of thumb is: If the optimization has no measureable effect on the programs you expect to run in a system, don't do it. Case in point: the TCP stack. Just *try* reading it! -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11: 0:46 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:00:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from magellan.palisadesys.com (magellan.palisadesys.com [192.188.162.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F78637B6A3 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:00:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by magellan.palisadesys.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIJ0OX24498 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:00:24 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:00:23 -0600 (CST) From: Guy Helmer To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Maestro audio in Dell Latitude CPt Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone happen to have patches for FreeBSD 4.2 to make the pcm driver drive the sound device in the Dell Latitude CPt (identified as vendor 0x125d, dev 0x199[89])? If so, could you either send them to me or provide a pointer to them? Thanks, Guy -- Guy Helmer, Ph.D. Sr. Software Engineer, Palisade Systems --- ghelmer@palisadesys.com http://www.palisadesys.com/~ghelmer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11: 1:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:01:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from tongue.purplefrog.com (tongue.purplefrog.com [63.209.2.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B826337B404 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:01:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from integratus.com (adsl-64-164-192-194.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.164.192.194]) by tongue.purplefrog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA30504; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:01:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3A3E6002.F68A78E1@integratus.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:05:38 -0800 From: Jack Rusher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) References: <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > > > I doubt that you could measure any difference between > > if (foo) free(foo); > > and free(foo); > > Nevertheless, I tend to write it that way at times -- maybe because it > seems so natural to me to ask `do I need to free this thing?' -- and > that gets translated directly to code. I find that I still use the: if( foo ) free( foo ); ...syntax a large part of the time. It's a habit developed before you could trust the free() implementation on every platform to conform to sanity. It also prevents me from getting into the habit of using syntax that will get me into trouble when programming in embedded environments & kernels. In any case, this style doesn't raise the "what the hell?" flag the way a number of other things do. Jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11: 2:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:02:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dayspring.firedrake.org (dayspring.firedrake.org [195.82.105.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C784737B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from float by dayspring.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1485Xq-0003lT-00; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:01:58 +0000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:01:58 +0000 To: Joseph Scott Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Message-ID: <20001218190158.B14040@firedrake.org> References: <200012161822.HAA03654@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from joseph@randomnetworks.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:22:58AM -0800 From: void Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:22:58AM -0800, Joseph Scott wrote: > > If the problem is load then another approach would be to heavily > nice(1) the perl script the is launched when a commit mail comes in. I could be wrong, but I think there's a potential problem with this strategy -- namely, when processes are niced, they don't get to run as often, so they stick around longer, and they tend to pile up in memory. -- Ben 220 go.ahead.make.my.day ESMTP Postfix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11: 9:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:09:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A221137B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:09:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBIJ8PP46165; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:08:25 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012181908.eBIJ8PP46165@earth.backplane.com> To: Jack Rusher Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : I find that I still use the: : : if( foo ) : free( foo ); : :...syntax a large part of the time. It's a habit developed before you :could trust the free() implementation on every platform to conform to :sanity. It also prevents me from getting into the habit of using syntax :that will get me into trouble when programming in embedded environments :& kernels. In any case, this style doesn't raise the "what the hell?" :flag the way a number of other things do. : :Jack I go one step further and have a routine which NULLs out the pointer variable itself. routine() { ... safe_free(&ptr); ... } void safe_free(void **ptr) { if (*ptr) { free(*ptr); *ptr = NULL; } } And for malloc, so I don't have to check the return value in the hundreds of places I call it: void * safe_malloc(int bytes) { void *ptr; if ((ptr = malloc(bytes)) == NULL) *(int *)0 = 1; /* force seg fault */ return(ptr); } And for asprintf(), same deal. It isn't much use if you call it a billion times and have to check the return value every time. int safe_asprintf(char **pptr, const char *ctl, ...) { va_list va; int r; va_start(va, ctl); r = vasprintf(pptr, ctl, va); va_end(va); if (r < 0) *(int *)0 = 1; /* force seg fault */ return(r); } -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:11:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:11:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C6F37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4735C193E1; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:11:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBIJBCK65204; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:11:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:11:12 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Warner Losh Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:40:43AM -0700 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 11:40:43AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: > : None taken. It is however a simple and safe optimization, with no > : apparent downsides. It has the same attraction as using bit shifts > : instead of multiplication/division, or saving the value from a function > : call that will be needed again later, even if you know the function call > : is trivial. > > You are trading a test against zero and code obfuscation against a > function call. The function call is typically much less than even a > multiplication or division would be. You get clearer, easier to read > code that is smaller by allowing free to do its job and not trying to > optimize things. Ever notice that you tend to send more email when you should be studying for a final? /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ if (data) vs. free(data) free(data); I don't see that Case 1 obfuscates anything. In some cases I find it clearer: Case 1 implies that maybe no memory was allocated. Case 2 seems to imply that memory was indeed allocated. > I guess I tend to think 'This needs to be freed, let free deal with > the details so I won't have to be bothered with them.' Function > abstraction is supposed to be about hiding details that don't matter. > And in my opinion, this is one of those details. I think it depends on the context. > I've also seen code written where this sort of thing was taken to an > obscene degree where you'd have 10-30 layers all making the same > validity tests to ensure the data was really really good when it was > impossible to get down more than a layer or two and have it be bad. > Before you say that more tests are good, I cleaned up this mess and > was able to reduce 5 overlay regions (yes, 5!) on a pdp-11 fortran > monster due to systematically eliminating them (well, I ifdef'd them > out (we wrote a fortran preprocessor, but that's another story)). The > code went from something like 500k to 225k by removing the redundant > tests through all the layers. I know this is an extreme example, but > it does go to show that sometimes these tests can be rather > signficicant. I agree with what you are saying, and yes, it is an extreme example. I guess I was focused on the particular case of free(). I happy with the opinions I've received. Based on them, I seem to be in the minority of preferring `if (data) free(data);' in some cases. OTOH, our code base speaks differently than the email I've received -- `if (data) free(data);' seems to be used quite alot. I will probably continue to use it the way I have before -- to make it clear that there may or may not be memory to free at this point. Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:11:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:11:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.cray.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C9FF37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from thought.org (tao.sea.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03170; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kline@localhost) by thought.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBIJBaD72122; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:11:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kline) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:11:34 -0800 From: Gary Kline To: Dan Langille Cc: Vivek Khera , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Message-ID: <20001218111134.C71210@tao.thought.org> References: <14910.20578.512135.887887@onceler.kciLink.com> <200012181822.HAA18724@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200012181822.HAA18724@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 07:23:11AM +1300 X-Organization: Thought Unlimited. Public service Unix since 1986. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 07:23:11AM +1300, Dan Langille wrote: > On 18 Dec 2000, at 12:58, Vivek Khera wrote: > > > >>>>> "JSF" == Joseph Scott writes: > > > > JSF> If you don't want to process a message the instant it comes in > > JSF> (via feeding it to a perl script or what ever) you'll need to setup some > > JSF> sort of queue, then have a cron job come through and process the > > JSF> queue. > > > > Or, you could use a mailer system that does it for you. You can > > configure postfix to deliver at most N messages to a specific local > > destination at once, the rest getting queued in the local mail spool. > > If you set this limit to 1, you'd avoid the need for any additional > > file locking as well. > > Thanks. Offline, someone also suggested exim, which contains a perl > interpreter. But I would rather develop an MTA independent solution. > Hi Dan, elm used to have a program /usr/local/bin/filter that did what you want to do, I think. There were concise examples in the elm documentation and it worked well if the load wasn't extremely heavy. I used the filter binary for years; the bad news is that this binary seems to be missing from elm-2.5. No such feature in mutt.... gary -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service Unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:15:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:15:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DECA37B402; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19117; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:15:12 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012181915.IAA19117@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: Gary Kline Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:15:39 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20001218111134.C71210@tao.thought.org> References: <200012181822.HAA18724@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from dan@langille.org on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 07:23:11AM +1300 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Dec 2000, at 11:11, Gary Kline wrote: > elm used to have a program /usr/local/bin/filter that did > what you want to do, I think. There were concise examples > in the elm documentation and it worked well if the load wasn't > extremely heavy. I used the filter binary for years; the > bad news is that this binary seems to be missing from elm-2.5. > > No such feature in mutt.... Thanks. Always interesting to know. BTW folks, the thread has moved to freebsd-ports, unless someone can suggest a more appropriate list. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:22:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:22:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCDA937B404 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIJMis08636; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:22:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA93045; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:22:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012181922.MAA93045@harmony.village.org> To: Matt Dillon Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:59:12 PST." <200012181859.eBIIxCS46046@earth.backplane.com> References: <200012181859.eBIIxCS46046@earth.backplane.com> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012172110.eBHLAfU46563@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:22:43 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012181859.eBIIxCS46046@earth.backplane.com> Matt Dillon writes: : Optimizations have two sides to them. On the one hand they can make : code go faster. On the otherhand they can turn once-readable code into : a tangle. The rule of thumb is: If the optimization has no measureable : effect on the programs you expect to run in a system, don't do it. Agreed. It is like teaching a pig to sing. It only annoys you and frustrates the pig :-). Engineering effort is better spend on those parts of the system that take up the most amount of time in your profiles. Otherwise no one will notice. : Case in point: the TCP stack. Just *try* reading it! Agreed. Except back in the dim, dark past the tcp stack did show a rather substantial improvement with the optimizations done to it. I think it was called "fast path" coding where the most common case was made a special case at the top of the loop. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:28: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:27:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C3137B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIJRts08669; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:27:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA93102; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:27:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012181927.MAA93102@harmony.village.org> To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:11:12 CST." <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:27:55 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> "Jacques A. Vidrine" writes: : Ever notice that you tend to send more email when you should be studying : for a final? That's why Style(9) wars break out this time of year. :-) : /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ : if (data) vs. free(data) : free(data); : : I don't see that Case 1 obfuscates anything. In some cases I find it : clearer: Case 1 implies that maybe no memory was allocated. Case 2 : seems to imply that memory was indeed allocated. Depends on the reader. case 2 to me says "free the memory, if there's any to free". This encapsulates case 1 better than having it be explicit. : I happy with the opinions I've received. Based on them, I seem to be in : the minority of preferring `if (data) free(data);' in some cases. OTOH, : our code base speaks differently than the email I've received -- `if : (data) free(data);' seems to be used quite alot. I will probably : continue to use it the way I have before -- to make it clear that there : may or may not be memory to free at this point. The if (data) free(data); is the dusty deck problem, also known as the dead hand of the past problem. Back before ANSI-C (in the mid 1980's), some frees would core dump on free(NULL), while others would accept it. ANSI-C dictated that it should be accepted and nothing should happen. All code wasn't changed over night. This is the same reason that we have the uglification of __P() in our tree too. Compilers were slow to adpot ANSI-C (no called iso-c or c89) so allowances needed to be made for the multiple environments the code would work in. Now that K&R is totally dead, except maybe on Bruce's machines, the need for it no longer exists. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:36:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:36:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA60E37B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBIGqBf03785; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:52:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:52:11 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Writing Device Drivers In-Reply-To: <20001218014903.M30802@klapaucius.zer0.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi guys, On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2000-12-17 22:12 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > Sergey Babkin wrote: > > > Look at the DaemonNews (www.daemonnews.org), the Blueprints > > > column. If I remember the months correctly, in the July 2000 > > > issues there is an introduction into FreeBSD device drivers by > > > Alexander Langner, and in June and August issues there are my > > > articles on CAM (SCSI) > > drivers and ISA device drivers > > > respectively. There also were articles on the Netgraph networking > > > subsystem and on writing drivers as modules. > > It's about time for an article index at DN, isn't it? > Yes. As soon as any of us can find time to do the work. We need to > get our ezine into our database. It involves a bit of scripting, some > searching through email archives, categorization, then the import. > All of it's just text/html now; we weren't very thoughtful at first. As Greg points out, we didn't realy imagine at the start that we'd need this! Now it's necessary but no one has come forward to do the work. Note however that a search at DN will produce the articles mentioned above. :-) ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:39:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:39:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C06CA37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA717150; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:38:49 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <20001217151509.A63051@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:38:47 -0500 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 1:11 PM -0600 12/18/00, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: >Ever notice that you tend to send more email when you should be >studying for a final? I did notice that I write very few letters now, compared to when I was in college and still facing exams/finals... > /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > if (data) vs. free(data) > free(data); > >I don't see that Case 1 obfuscates anything. In some cases >I find it clearer: Case 1 implies that maybe no memory was >allocated. Case 2 seems to imply that memory was indeed >allocated. For what it's worth, my preference is to also zero out 'data' after freeing it. I tend to do the 'if (data)' part, particularly if I'm also doing that test for other reasons. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:45:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:45:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from speedbuggy.telerama.com (speedbuggy.telerama.com [205.201.1.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A838C37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2414 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2000 19:45:49 -0000 Received: from gibson.aaronsen.com (doug@205.201.1.36) by speedbuggy.telerama.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2000 19:45:49 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:45:49 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Luce X-Sender: doug@gibson.aaronsen.com To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: National Semiconductor 82c168/82c169 driver Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I haven't been able to find a driver for this ethernet card, so I'm working on porting the Linux driver over. It seems to have "natsemi" coded in as the default device mnenomic. Is it a good idea to pull this name directly over to FreeBSD? So my Ethernet interface would be natsemi0 instead of fxp0 (for an Intel card)... Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:56:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:56:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73BE37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:56:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBIJuis08837; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:56:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA93460; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:56:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012181956.MAA93460@harmony.village.org> To: Doug Luce Subject: Re: National Semiconductor 82c168/82c169 driver Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:45:49 EST." References: Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:56:43 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Doug Luce writes: : I haven't been able to find a driver for this ethernet card, so I'm : working on porting the Linux driver over. It seems to have "natsemi" : coded in as the default device mnenomic. Is it a good idea to pull this : name directly over to FreeBSD? So my Ethernet interface would be natsemi0 : instead of fxp0 (for an Intel card)... natsemi is likely too generic a name for this one ethernet card. What if the sio driver had been called natsemi since the original 8250 was made by natsemi (well, given the part number, it looks like a intel part. The all 16550 data sheets I've seen are from natsemi only). I'd be tempted to call it nse (National Semiconductor Ethernet). But that might be too generic. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 11:59: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 11:59:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from speedbuggy.telerama.com (speedbuggy.telerama.com [205.201.1.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA6E937B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 11:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11560 invoked from network); 18 Dec 2000 19:58:46 -0000 Received: from gibson.aaronsen.com (doug@205.201.1.36) by speedbuggy.telerama.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 2000 19:58:46 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:58:45 -0500 (EST) From: Doug Luce X-Sender: doug@gibson.aaronsen.com To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: National Semiconductor DP83815 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On my previous message, please ignore the designation I gave for the card. The card I'm messing with is a Bay Netgear FA311, based on the National Semiconductor DP83815. My pasting ability was somewhat hampered during the last composition. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 12: 2:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:02:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 618) id 0450E37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: National Semiconductor 82c168/82c169 driver In-Reply-To: from Doug Luce at "Dec 18, 2000 02:45:49 pm" To: luce@aaronsen.com (Doug Luce) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:02:47 -0800 (PST) Cc: hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20001218200248.0450E37B400@hub.freebsd.org> From: wpaul@FreeBSD.ORG (Bill Paul) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I haven't been able to find a driver for this ethernet card, That's because it doesn't exist. There is no such thing as a "National Semiconductor 82c168/82c169." There is such a thing as a National Semiconductor DP83815 (MacPHYter), and there's also such a thing as a Lite-On 82c168/82c169 (PNIC). You appear to have gotten the two confused. Also, this is a chip, not a card. What you really meant to say was: "I just bought this new Netgear FA311-TX (or FA312-TX) card and it has a National Semiconductor chip on it. This has me all confused because the last Netgear card I bought (an FA310-TX) had a PNIC chip on it." If you have FreeBSD 4.1.1 or later, then the NatSemi chip will work with the "sis" driver. (It has a similar programming interface to the SiS 900 so I decided to just modify the sis driver to support it rather than writing a whole new one.) I've tested a Netgear FA312-TX in the office and from what I can tell it works fine. The PNIC chip works with the dc driver. > so I'm > working on porting the Linux driver over. It seems to have "natsemi" > coded in as the default device mnenomic. You mean: "The source file appears to be called netsemi.c." Linux network interfaces are all called ethX. > Is it a good idea to pull this > name directly over to FreeBSD? So my Ethernet interface would be natsemi0 > instead of fxp0 (for an Intel card)... No, it's a good idea to try a newer FreeBSD release, or grab if_sis.c and if_sisreg.h from a newer release and put it on your older system. It's also a good idea to tell us what version of FreeBSD you're using so we don't have to guess. -Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 12:11:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:11:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kci.kciLink.com (kci.kciLink.com [204.117.82.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D527137B404; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:11:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from yertle.kciLink.com (yertle.kciLink.com [208.184.13.195]) by kci.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BE0C9BD; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from onceler.kciLink.com (onceler.kciLink.com [208.184.13.196]) by yertle.kciLink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA632E443; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from khera@localhost) by onceler.kciLink.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBIKBGk05220; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:11:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from khera) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14910.28516.525214.162735@onceler.kciLink.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:11:16 -0500 To: Joseph Scott Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: processing incoming mail messages (FreshPorts 2) In-Reply-To: References: <14910.20578.512135.887887@onceler.kciLink.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.86 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "JS" == Joseph Scott writes: JS> How does postfix determine that a message has been delivered JS> though? From reading Dan's first message, my though was the problem was JS> doing the processing of the commit, all the db stuff, which would happen JS> after the perl script had already accepted delivery of the message. You configure your program as a transport agent. Then it can do things like returning the error codes from sysexits.h like EX_TEMPFAIL and EX_OK to communicate back to postfix the status of the operations. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 12:15:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:15:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 517AE37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:15:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from harare-13.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.50.13] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 1486gb-0000T1-00; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:15:06 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A3E701A.A104A940@elischer.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:14:18 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Wes Peters , Devin Butterfield , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> <3A3D513B.52737F48@wireless.net> <3A3D9D80.61F1EAFC@softweyr.com> <200012181732.KAA91834@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <3A3E042F.7DEE0346@elischer.org> Julian Elischer writes: > : I have the pci/isa driver skeleton pretty up-to-date, but it doesn't > : have any DMA example code, nor does it have any sample code for > : pccard or cardbus . > > Aren't there two kinds of DMA that we need to worry about? Those that > are "isadma" where you have to program the DMA controller, and the > more conventional DMA where the device becomes the bus master and the > bytes just appear in host memory? > > Also, cardbus should be a 1 liner. I'll add that to your examples. > Do you want to review them, or can I just do this and any other tweaks > that might be necessary? just add them. I'll be as interested to see what it is as everyone else :-) > > Warner > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 12:33:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 12:33:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail14.bigmailbox.com (mail14.bigmailbox.com [209.132.220.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F42537B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received: œby mail14.bigmailbox.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16353; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:33:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:33:50 -0800 Message-Id: <200012182033.MAA16353@mail14.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary X-Mailer: MIME-tools 4.104 (Entity 4.116) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-Ip: [4.33.192.175] From: "Nathaniel G H" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Text mode video operations Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I was wondering why VESA_800x600 refreshes to 80x25 and figured out, >that > >>size[0] = 80; /* columns */ >>size[1] = 25; /* rows */ >> >>for mode SW_VESA_800x600 (line 319 of src/usr.sbin/vidcontrol.c). >>A screen resolution of 800x600 would make >> >>size[0] = 100; /* columns */ >>size[1] = 37; /* rows */ > Hi folks, Speaking of video operations... does anybody know where I can find some decent VGA programming documentation? (Or, if possible, someone who knows a few obscure details.) I specifically need to know, if possible, how to display hardware- rendered character- and software-rendered pixel-based images on the same display at the same time. This is necessary for a program whose primary display requirements are as follows: 1. The display consists mostly of character-based text that must be updated frequently and rapidly. 2. Pixel-based graphics, when displayed /some of the time/, must appear at the same time as text, but are updated infrequently and do not overlap with text. Currently, we operate in "text" mode (80x25) and switch to graphics to display pixel-based images. While in graphics mode, character bitmaps (which are read from the VGA ROM) are rendered in software. This is a waste of runtime, code size, and extra work on my part, especially when the character rendering functionality is such a basic part of all VGA hardware. I would like to operate in the same resolution and frequency all the time, for both types of operations. Finally, I apologise if my question doesn't belong on this list, but I have tried just about everything and, as always, posting questions is my last resort. If somebody knows where I can find this information, /please/ let me know. I will be more than happy to make the results available so that others can benefit from this work. Thank you kindly, Nathaniel G H ------------------------------------------------------------ Free, BeOS-friendly email accounts: http://BeMail.org/ love and pixels .:. http://dieselsweeties.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:12:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:12:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6674637B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6F54E57481; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:12:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:12:35 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Cc: Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net>; from dbutter@wireless.net on Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 10:04:20PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [sent to -small too] On Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 10:04:20PM -0800, Devin Butterfield scribbled: | Jordan Hubbard wrote: | > > Is there any work in progress to support running FreeBSD on ARM | > > processors? If not, are there any plans to? I would be very interested | > > in helping out with such an effort. I would love to have FreeBSD running | > > on my iPAQ PocketPC. :) | > | > No work in progress, no plans. Would you be interested in heading | > such a project? That's what's needed. :) I would be quite interested. But do we have the resouces and the man-hours to handle IA-64/KA-64/PPC/Alpha/StrongARM at the same time? I am very interested in the PPC and StrongARM port, but there are so few of us on -ppc... Perhaps the first step would be to start a freebsd-arm@freebsd.org mailing list? | Unfortunately, I don't think that I have enough knowledge to "head" such | a project. I can certainly help in the effort though. I'm familiar with | the FreeBSD kernel and have written drivers but I really know little | about ARM or what it would take to get the FreeBSD kernel to boot on an | ARM. | | I guess we could start by using the data collected by the NetBSD group's | effort to run on ARM. Is there anyone here who is familiar with NetBSD's | ARM project? | | Anyone here interested in such a project (and perhaps who has some prior | knowledge of what would be involved in realizing such a beast)? Yes, I am! :) However, imho we should finish the FreeBSD/PPC project first. The StrongARM is quite similiar to the PPC processors. If we get the loader and init working, the rest will be a breeze. We could simply build a cross-gcc on ARM/Linux and the rest is making sure that everything compiles. Intel recently supplied me with the Brutus, Assabet, and the EBSA boards in addition to a compiler/debugger suite for a research project. IIRC, NetBSD doesn't have the newer StrongARM SA-11xx ports. And that's why we have to work from ARM/Linux. The good thing is that we do not need SMP on FreeBSD/ARM/StrongARM. (PowerPC still needs SMP support though.) The most important decision now would be: Should we concentrate on the PPC port first? Or should we go at each port simultaneously? With PicoBSD not working very well in -CURRENT and the advent of large sized flash media (SANDISK/CompactFlash, SmartMedia). Can we begin to maybe have a "make buildsmallworld" target? (i.e. a combination of NO_STATIC=yes and other suitable options) In addition, -CURRENT has become very much larger. I know about the "embedded systems are customized, so cut it down yourself" argument. However, what if it's still large after we cut it down to the bare minimum? Also, what about /dev/random seeding problems? -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:17:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:17:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC4C37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBILHCh06143 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:17:12 -0700 Message-Id: <200012182117.eBILHCh06143@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:11:12 CST." <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6139.977174232.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:17:12 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com>, n@nectar.com writes: > /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > if (data) vs. free(data) > free(data); > >I don't see that Case 1 obfuscates anything. In some cases I find it >clearer: Case 1 implies that maybe no memory was allocated. Case 2 >seems to imply that memory was indeed allocated. When functions fit on one screen (where "one screen" is platform dependant, but probably 80 columns wide (you may want hard copy which doesn't wrap) and somewhat less than 60 lines long (given 19" monitors as a defacto standard and the font sizes required to accomodate aging eyes that have stared at computer screens for far too long)), you can see variable definitions and their use at the same time, if and else clauses at the same time, the end of for loops along with what happens to variables just after that, etc. Such functions can be groked in less time than those suffering from sprawl. Anything which stretches functions out like this if (data) { free(data); } rather than this free(data); contributes to sprawl, and in marginal cases may be the proverbial straw which breaks the camel's back. if (data) free (data); doesn't pose that problem, although it is inconsistant with most coding standards. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:19:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:19:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF65437B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBILJ3s09270; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:19:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA94431; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:19:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Cc: Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:12:35 CST." <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:19:02 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: : IIRC, NetBSD doesn't have the newer StrongARM SA-11xx ports. : And that's why we have to work from ARM/Linux. In conversations that I had with an unnamed vendor a while ago, the newer parts should be just a few days of casual effort to incorporate into NetBSD. The glue chips for the eval boards likely would be more work, but the mods for the new CPU would be farily minimal. : With PicoBSD not working very well in -CURRENT and the advent of : large sized flash media (SANDISK/CompactFlash, SmartMedia). : Can we begin to maybe have a "make buildsmallworld" target? : (i.e. a combination of NO_STATIC=yes and other suitable options) Maybe. I have a script that will effectively do a installsmallworld target. The guts of the script are a for loop that does (cd $FreeBSDSrcDir make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk -f Makefile.inc1 \ hierarchy DESTDIR=$1 NOMAN=yes (cd etc ; make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk \ distribution DESTDIR=$1 NOMAN=yes) for i in ${FreeBSDProgramDirs}; do echo "==> $i" test -d $i && (cd $i ; make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk \ install -DNOINFO -DNOMAN DESTDIR=$1 -DNOPROFILE) done) which lets you tweak things to year heart's delight. Every time I go to put this script up, I run into the "oh, but I want it to do X Y and Z before posting." problem. Maybe I should just post it. : In addition, -CURRENT has become very much larger. I know about : the "embedded systems are customized, so cut it down yourself" : argument. However, what if it's still large after we cut it down : to the bare minimum? Also, what about /dev/random seeding problems? There are lots of ways to seed /dev/random in an embdeeded system. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:21: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:20:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3945437B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBILVFQ09212; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:31:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012182131.eBILVFQ09212@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Jeremiah Gowdy" Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DOS Emulation KLD In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 09:51:09 PST." <002201c0691b$1cd1d140$aa240018@cx443070b> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:31:15 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Any comments or suggestions welcome. > > > > Fix doscmd, which does the emulation in userland (which is even better > > than running as a KLD). > > What's wrong with doscmd ? I hadn't noticed this one used BSD filesystems > in addition to image files. That was my #1 issue with some of the other > emulators. It needs a lot of TLC; there are plenty of places where it could be usefully extended as well. One might also consider abandoning it entirely and making plex86 work, if one was really interested in that sort of thing. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:30: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:29:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC9037B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBILTlh06215; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:29:47 -0700 Message-Id: <200012182129.eBILTlh06215@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: "Nathaniel G H" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Text mode video operations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:33:50 PST." <200012182033.MAA16353@mail14.bigmailbox.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6211.977174986.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:29:46 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012182033.MAA16353@mail14.bigmailbox.com>, bsd_appliance@bemail. org writes: >I specifically need to know, if possible, how to display hardware- >rendered character- and software-rendered pixel-based images on the >same display at the same time. This is not possible with straight VGA. If the graphics aren't too big, you can work arround this hardware limitation by implementing your graphics as a user defined font. You may also be able to use the bitblt hardware present on "accelerated" video boards. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 13:31:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 13:31:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA9437B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:31:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBILgCQ09290; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012182142.eBILgCQ09290@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "Nathaniel G H" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Text mode video operations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:33:50 PST." <200012182033.MAA16353@mail14.bigmailbox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 13:42:12 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Speaking of video operations... does anybody know where I can find > some decent VGA programming documentation? (Or, if possible, someone > who knows a few obscure details.) > = > I specifically need to know, if possible, how to display hardware- > rendered character- and software-rendered pixel-based images on the > same display at the same time. Standard VGA does not offer this functionality; your current approach is = the only way to go. -- = =2E.. every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 14:25:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 14:25:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fdy2.demon.co.uk (fdy2.demon.co.uk [194.222.102.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63AC537B402; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rjs@localhost) by fdy2.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00535; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:20:40 GMT (envelope-from rjs) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:20:40 GMT Message-Id: <200012182220.WAA00535@fdy2.demon.co.uk> From: Robert Swindells To: imp@village.org Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, dbutter@wireless.net, freebsd-small@freebsd.org, jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> (message from Warner Losh on Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:19:02 -0700) Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: >In message <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C >. Wu" writes: >: IIRC, NetBSD doesn't have the newer StrongARM SA-11xx ports. >: And that's why we have to work from ARM/Linux. >In conversations that I had with an unnamed vendor a while ago, the >newer parts should be just a few days of casual effort to incorporate >into NetBSD. The glue chips for the eval boards likely would be more >work, but the mods for the new CPU would be farily minimal. The mods to recognize the new CPU are only "a few days casual effort", but writing the extra device drivers has taken several weeks. I have been doing plenty of other stuff as well, so it wasn't a huge amount of work, but there are still several more drivers to be written. Porting FreeBSD to the SA-110 or Xscale 80200 would be a fair bit easier than porting to the SA-1110 or Cotulla, since the first two are PCI bus devices. I would be interested in working on FreeBSD/ARM, but I would like to get the SA-11x0 NetBSD/arm32 port finished first. Robert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 14:27:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 14:27:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF8DB37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:27:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0953B57482; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:27:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:27:32 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Warner Losh Cc: Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Warner Losh , Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 02:19:02PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 02:19:02PM -0700, Warner Losh scribbled: | In message <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C | . Wu" writes: | : IIRC, NetBSD doesn't have the newer StrongARM SA-11xx ports. | : And that's why we have to work from ARM/Linux. | | In conversations that I had with an unnamed vendor a while ago, the | newer parts should be just a few days of casual effort to incorporate | into NetBSD. The glue chips for the eval boards likely would be more | work, but the mods for the new CPU would be farily minimal. I will look into this. | : With PicoBSD not working very well in -CURRENT and the advent of | : large sized flash media (SANDISK/CompactFlash, SmartMedia). | : Can we begin to maybe have a "make buildsmallworld" target? | : (i.e. a combination of NO_STATIC=yes and other suitable options) | | Maybe. I have a script that will effectively do a installsmallworld | target. The guts of the script are a for loop that does | | (cd $FreeBSDSrcDir | make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk -f Makefile.inc1 \ | hierarchy DESTDIR=$1 NOMAN=yes | (cd etc ; make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk \ | distribution DESTDIR=$1 NOMAN=yes) | for i in ${FreeBSDProgramDirs}; do | echo "==> $i" | test -d $i && | (cd $i ; make -m ${FreeBSDSrcDir}/share/mk \ | install -DNOINFO -DNOMAN DESTDIR=$1 -DNOPROFILE) | done) Do you use the gcc embedded optimizations? | which lets you tweak things to year heart's delight. Every time I go | to put this script up, I run into the "oh, but I want it to do X Y and | Z before posting." problem. Maybe I should just post it. Just an idea/question: Can we possibly use crunchgen to generate a big binary for userland tools only? Then we can drop in new binaries with ease. However, I think that simply buying a 100mb SANDISK is easier. :) | : In addition, -CURRENT has become very much larger. I know about | : the "embedded systems are customized, so cut it down yourself" | : argument. However, what if it's still large after we cut it down | : to the bare minimum? Also, what about /dev/random seeding problems? | | There are lots of ways to seed /dev/random in an embdeeded system. Right, I simply hope that Mark Murray can allow us to drop in things like GPS signal strength and radio background noise. Many embedded devices have antennas that could be put to good use. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 14:28:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 14:28:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D847337B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:28:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBIMSiB65076; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:28:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:28:44 -0800 (PST) From: Doug White To: Danny Braniss Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: diskless/pxe boot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Danny Braniss wrote: > hi all, > I can't get the pxe/dhcp to work when it's 100Mbit Ethernet, it works > fine when it's 10Mbit. Actually a newer Intel MB just succeeded, but 99% > of the pxe enabled cards fail at 100Mbit. from sniffing the net the broadcast > dhcp request does not make it. it does not help to set the switch to > 'no auto negotiation', ie fixed 100 (full or half duplex). > > Is there any success out there? if so, what combination of NIC and > switch? For your condition we'd need to know what PXE version you were using and on what device. For newer PXE revs (2.X), you want build 082 or later. Everything before is broken in some way. The 0.99c version of the Boot Agent (on older fxp cards) is fine, however. The Intel 810 firmware is quite broken; a fixed one will be available shortly. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 14:51:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 14:51:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDAE737B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (murray@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBIMpPY27384 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from murray@osd.bsdi.com) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 14:51:25 -0800 (PST) From: Murray Stokely To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm trying to come up with a comprehensive comparison that shows off the strengths of FreeBSD when compared to alternative operating systems. In particular, I would like information about : * Large BSD installations * Performance advantages of FreeBSD * Specific subsystems where we excel * Other technical reasons why _YOU_ choose BSD. The current work in progress is available at : http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/ I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can then be used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at trade shows, published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, - Murray To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 16:15: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 16:14:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from db.wireless.net (adsl-gte-la-216-86-194-70.mminternet.com [216.86.194.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8554D37B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wireless.net (dbm.wireless.net [192.168.0.2]) by db.wireless.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA36231; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbutter@wireless.net) Sender: dbutter@db.wireless.net Message-ID: <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:14:10 -0800 From: Devin Butterfield X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > [sent to -small too] > > I would be quite interested. But do we have the resouces and the man-hours > to handle IA-64/KA-64/PPC/Alpha/StrongARM at the same time? I am > very interested in the PPC and StrongARM port, but there are so few of > us on -ppc... Perhaps the first step would be to start a > freebsd-arm@freebsd.org mailing list? It would seem to me that the logical approach would be to pursue the project for which there is the most interest; for which there are people interested in working on it. A mailing list certainly seems like a good way to get started. I for one am interested in the StrongARM port. Of course, I have an iPAQ not a PPC so there lies the source of my bias. :) > However, imho we should finish the FreeBSD/PPC project first. > The StrongARM is quite similiar to the PPC processors. If we > get the loader and init working, the rest will be a breeze. > We could simply build a cross-gcc on ARM/Linux and the rest is > making sure that everything compiles. > > Intel recently supplied me with the Brutus, Assabet, and the EBSA > boards in addition to a compiler/debugger suite for a research project. I'd be willing to use my iPAQ as a guinea pig. ;-) > The most important decision now would be: > Should we concentrate on the PPC port first? Or should we go at each > port simultaneously? Well, if there are enough people with PCC's that are interested in helping with the effort then perhaps pursuing the PPC port first would make more sense. I don't have a PPC so I couldn't help out there... If the decision is to pursue a StrongARM port then you can count me in. -- Regards, Devin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 16:21:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 16:21:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42E737B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBJ0LRs10036; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:21:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA95681; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:21:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012190021.RAA95681@harmony.village.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:27:32 CST." <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:21:27 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: : Do you use the gcc embedded optimizations? No. Not directly. My install script assumes that : | which lets you tweak things to year heart's delight. Every time I go : | to put this script up, I run into the "oh, but I want it to do X Y and : | Z before posting." problem. Maybe I should just post it. : : Just an idea/question: : Can we possibly use crunchgen to generate a big binary for userland tools : only? Then we can drop in new binaries with ease. No. I will not do that. The biggest reason is that it is an unbelievable PITA to manitain if you have other applications to load onto the box that are outside of the FreeBSD tree. I tried doing that once upon a time and found that with shared libraries for everything, and 16M or larger parts that it wasn't necessary at all since the savings was so meager. : However, I think that simply buying a 100mb SANDISK is easier. :) If you need 100MB parts, you are doing something wrong. We're running on 32M parts with 10-20M free depending on the application(s) we layer onto the device here at Timing Soltuions. And that's without using filesystem level compression. If we could run only out of memory, we'd be able to fit on a 8M part with room to spare. 1.44MB is too small, but 16M is way fat. The base system is a smidge over 7M. You could trim that to about 6M for standard /etc/rc files and about 4M if you roll your own and use the tineware tools from PicoBSD and don't need anything else (eg router, ppp-on-a-stick, etc). Our application requires a control program that's fairly large because it has a lot to do, which is why we chose the 32M parts. Also, for a long time the smallest flash I could build was 16M before we put anything else on it. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 16:35:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 16:35:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C2637B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1DC1157483; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:35:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:35:49 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Warner Losh Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Warner Losh , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <200012190021.RAA95681@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012190021.RAA95681@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 05:21:27PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 05:21:27PM -0700, Warner Losh scribbled: | In message <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: | : Just an idea/question: | : Can we possibly use crunchgen to generate a big binary for userland tools | : only? Then we can drop in new binaries with ease. | | No. I will not do that. The biggest reason is that it is an | unbelievable PITA to manitain if you have other applications to load | onto the box that are outside of the FreeBSD tree. I tried doing that | once upon a time and found that with shared libraries for everything, | and 16M or larger parts that it wasn't necessary at all since the | savings was so meager. Right, I sensed that maintenance would be a great problem too. It's just a novelty idea. | : However, I think that simply buying a 100mb SANDISK is easier. :) | | If you need 100MB parts, you are doing something wrong. We're running | on 32M parts with 10-20M free depending on the application(s) we layer | onto the device here at Timing Soltuions. And that's without using | filesystem level compression. If we could run only out of memory, | we'd be able to fit on a 8M part with room to spare. I agree with you that 100MB is overkill, but I think the cost has gone down enough to consider even a full powered embedded system with complete documentation and other added functionality. .oO (IRCing from a router...) *joke* Would 20mb be a comfortable target for "make buildsmallworld installsmallworld" ? The build would have to be interactive. And the interactive build can record all the options/choices done by the user for future builds. That leaves room for everyone to use at least 4mb on 24mb CF media, and 12mb on 32mb CF media. | 1.44MB is too small, but 16M is way fat. The base system is a smidge | over 7M. You could trim that to about 6M for standard /etc/rc files | and about 4M if you roll your own and use the tineware tools from | PicoBSD and don't need anything else (eg router, ppp-on-a-stick, | etc). Our application requires a control program that's fairly large | because it has a lot to do, which is why we chose the 32M parts. | Also, for a long time the smallest flash I could build was 16M before I think space for logging, stored backups of updates could be of good use. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 16:40:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 16:40:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9047437B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 16:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBJ0eCs10161; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:40:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id RAA95960; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:40:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012190040.RAA95960@harmony.village.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:35:49 CST." <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <200012190021.RAA95681@harmony.village.org> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:40:11 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: : Would 20mb be a comfortable target for : "make buildsmallworld installsmallworld" ? The build would have to : be interactive. And the interactive build can record all the : options/choices done by the user for future builds. That : leaves room for everyone to use at least 4mb on 24mb CF media, : and 12mb on 32mb CF media. I don't wnat it to be interactive at all. I would support having a configuration program that would be interactive, but the install should just do it. I also do not expect to have a special buildsmallworld target. Just a smallinstall target since there are many tools that should be built that I don't want to short circuit. Installing just a subset isn't a problem at all. There are also some minor problems in the current build system that need to be reoslved for having a runtime-only install for some components. These are mostly nits, but they can be worked around. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 18: 7:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 18:07:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natmail2.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A40037B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 18:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastion.localhost (p3EE1CBCD.dip.t-dialin.net [62.225.203.205]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06802; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:07:02 +0100 (MET) Received: from masterpc (master [192.168.0.1]) by bastion.localhost (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJ27Th42159; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:07:29 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:06:29 -0800 From: Boris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.46d) Personal Reply-To: Boris X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <16785804580.20001219030629@x-itec.de> To: Murray Stokely Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Murray, Monday, December 18, 2000, 2:51:25 PM, you wrote: MS> I'm trying to come up with a comprehensive comparison that shows off MS> the strengths of FreeBSD when compared to alternative operating MS> systems. In particular, I would like information about : Here are some suggestions to your comparisation. I think they are a little bit realistic, I am several years in business with windows and linux, since some month I dropped linux and went to FreeBSD (and i was really surprised, wow what a great os). Linux and *BSD are both great systems - no question. If I have time to do what I want, I will develop all necesssary things I need, but until then it will take some years. I am using a mix between Win2k and FreeBSD, and I am very happy with it. Win2k is my development platform at the moment and the BSD machine is my network platform, acting as sendmail server, nat, webserver, and so on. I will develop apps for freebsd soon, too (we will see what will happen with the years). The only reason why I am not completely moved to *BSD are some tools I need. Ok, well here are some additions to your comparisation. They are realistic and it reflects the years I spend with several OSes. Reliability ------------ 1. "Blue Screen" on Win2k ? I have never seen it with Win2k, these days are nearly over. Better: Win2k destroys itself after some month and no one know why. Destroyed DLLs, a lot of bugs in Internet-Explorer, randomly crashes of OS specific applications, no control about administrative tools. It need to be reinstalled approx every 3 monts or less, regarding to its use (and depends on the skill of the admin)! Performance ----------- Win2k requires a lot of memory, a lot of ressources and it produces fragmented directories. After some month, a Win2k machine slow downs a lot. Even 128 MB seems to be not enough to simply work with win2k. Transferring files via Windows SMB is slow. Security -------- Win2k security is not bad at all. It has not the probem with closing ports or buffer-overflows as much as linux has (for example). There are less ports opened, and you need less time for administer your server to secure it against attacks or similar. But if you need a firewall, you have to buy one. On *BSD you have a free, very good and advanced packet filter and a lot of intrusion detection tools (more or less useful *ggg). Device Drivers -------------- I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to publish the sourcecode, the should go away. I think this is a good idea from the linux peoples. If one person begins with stopping publishing their sources, other people will do this, too. And suddenly we have the same lame situation as on windows. I have moved to FreeBSD because I want to understand how everything is working. I will not use code in binary-only form on an operating system like FreeBSD - trust no one. Development environment ----------------------- You should not forget that if you are developing applications, that some people want to make money. So you need to buy a developing environment for windows to make money by yourself. It´s ok and some of us need the money. You are only comparing how many development tools are free, but you forgot the quality. Visual C++ or Delphi are really great tools and there are a lot of free components available for delphi (www.torry.ru for example). Thousands of routines and components. The generated code is not bad at all. Support ------- Support for Win2k is as good as for Linux or FreeBSD - maybe even better because there are a lot of qualified people out to solve problems with win2k or other operating systems. It takes less time to sove a win2k problem than solving a *nix problem. Mostly you only need to reinstall a service pack or similar, and that´s all. Price, and Total Cost of Ownership ---------------------------------- The time for configuring a Win2k machine in the first time is less than configuring a *nix machine and the learning curve for a newbie is higher as on *nix. BUT some weeks later, it costs MORE time to keep a Win2k machine up and running as a *nix machine. If FreeBSD is running, it keeps running. If Win2k is running, it works for some weeks, suddenly it makes any troubles and no one knows why. Meanwhile the BSD machine is still funny working without any problems. They are great uptimes, and win2k users can only dream about it. If you need a trouble free network, you need a qualified win2k administrator or a qualified unix admin. MS> The current work in progress is available at : MS> http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/ -- Best regards, Boris Köster mailto:koester@x-itec.de MCSE, CNA MS> The current work in progress is available at : MS> http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/ MS> I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can then be MS> used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at trade shows, MS> published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. MS> Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. MS> Thanks, MS> - Murray MS> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org MS> with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Best regards, Boris mailto:koester@x-itec.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 19:19:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 19:19:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852B137B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBJ3J2753408; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:19:02 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012190319.eBJ3J2753408@earth.backplane.com> To: Murray Stokely Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : I'm trying to come up with a comprehensive comparison that shows off :the strengths of FreeBSD when compared to alternative operating :systems. In particular, I would like information about : : : * Large BSD installations : * Performance advantages of FreeBSD : * Specific subsystems where we excel : * Other technical reasons why _YOU_ choose BSD. : : The current work in progress is available at : : http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/ : : I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can then be :used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at trade shows, :published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. : : Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. : : Thanks, : : - Murray My recommendation: Compare FreeBSD and Linux against Windows and Sun. Don't compare FreeBSD against Linux. The plain fact of the matter is that FreeBSD and Linux are rapidly converging in regards to performance and reliability. Anything you print that is true *now* is not likely to be true in a few months, or a few years. The article will live longer if it doesn't get outdated too quickly. FreeBSD has adopted considerable technology from Linux and Linux has adapted considerable technology from FreeBSD (The theory behind their new VM management/paging system is based on FreeBSD's VM theory, even if none of the code is). I've borrowed a number of things from Linux ... like the more efficient cpu synchronization in the 4.x mplock code. If there is anything we can say as a comparison, it's more general... the ports system and its ability to enforce reasonable filesystem structure, the fact that our distribution is a cohesive whole, and so forth. I think we are still considerably better under heavy loads, and that is likely to stay true for another year. Maybe. Nobody has anything even close to Kirk's softupdates, but Linux has IBM's AFS and XFS under development (though, personally, I don't think XFS is really what Linux needs or wants. Log structured filesystems have serious theoretical performance problems and are not suited well to systems with only a few disk drives to play with). On the flip side, linux will take us out to lunch on MP and parallel disk and network throughput and we won't be able to compete until probably 5.1. I think our (BSDI's) interrupt thread technology is superior, but it is going to take a lot of tuning and optimization to make it effective (hence 5.1 rather then 5.0). I think the Linux kernel API is also finally starting to stabilize, so we have a very rosy future with our Linux compatibility suite. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 20: 8:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 20:08:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.arch.bellsouth.net (ns1.arch.bellsouth.net [205.152.173.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8353B37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 20:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bar (ckhome [24.31.106.127]) by ns1.arch.bellsouth.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA25681 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:08:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Christian Kuhtz" To: Subject: ata weirdness Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 04:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey gang, for some reason, when I boot off the FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE floppies or the CD-ROM, one of my drives isn't recognized. Here's what the system looks like: ASUS K7V, Athlon 850, 512MB on the on-board IDE controller.. 1st channel: Maxtor 54098U8 UDMA4 Kenwood CD-R UDMA2 2nd channel Maxtor 54098U8 UDMA4 HP CD Writer 9300 UDMA2 Under winblows everything's recognized properly and everything's working perfectly. Win98 is install on the drive on the 1st channel, FreeBSD on the drive on the 2nd channel. When I boot FreeBSD, at the point where the ATA code attempts to recognize the drives (it properly identifies the controllers prior to this), I get the following message: ata0-master: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr ata0-master: ata_command: identify failed ad2: 39082MB [79406/16/63] at ata1-master UDMA66 Anyone have any idea as to what's going on here? ad0 is never recognized properly. This happened when I booted off floppy and installed from CD-ROM. If there's something I can do to generate more debug info, I'd be happy to. I have attached the full dmesg at the bottom of this email. Thanks in advance.. Cheers, Chris -- Christian Kuhtz -wk, -hm Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S. "I speak for myself only." Copyright (c) 1992-2000 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE #0: Mon Nov 20 13:02:55 GMT 2000 jkh@bento.FreeBSD.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: AMD Athlon(tm) Processor (850.03-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x621 Stepping = 1 Features=0x183f9ff AMD Features=0xc0400000 real memory = 536788992 (524208K bytes) avail memory = 518406144 (506256K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc0436000. Pentium Pro MTRR support enabled md0: Malloc disk npx0: on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface pcib0: on motherboard pci0: on pcib0 pcib2: at device 1.0 on pci0 pci1: on pcib2 pci1: at 0.0 irq 11 isab0: at device 4.0 on pci0 isa0: on isab0 atapci0: port 0xd800-0xd80f at device 4.1 on pci0 ata0: at 0x1f0 irq 14 on atapci0 ata1: at 0x170 irq 15 on atapci0 uhci0: port 0xd400-0xd41f irq 5 at device 4.2 on pci0 usb0: on uhci0 usb0: USB revision 1.0 uhub0: VIA UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered uhub1: Texas Instruments UT-USB41 hub, class 9/0, rev 1.10/1.10, addr 2 uhub1: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered ugen0: Eastman Kodak Corp. product 0x0002, rev 1.00/0.90, addr 3 ums0: Microsoft Microsoft IntelliMouse\M-. Explorer, rev 1.10/1.03, addr 4, iclass 3/1 ums0: 5 buttons and Z dir. uhid0: Microsoft SideWinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick, rev 1.10/a.00, addr 5, iclass 3/0 uhci1: port 0xd000-0xd01f irq 5 at device 4.3 on pci0 usb1: on uhci1 usb1: USB revision 1.0 uhub2: VIA UHCI root hub, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1 uhub2: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered pci0: (vendor=0x1102, dev=0x0002) at 10.0 pci0: (vendor=0x1102, dev=0x7002) at 10.1 xl0: <3Com 3c905C-TX Fast Etherlink XL> port 0x9800-0x987f mem 0xd5800000-0xd580007f irq 10 at device 11.0 on pci0 xl0: Ethernet address: 00:01:02:37:82:fd miibus0: on xl0 xlphy0: <3c905C 10/100 internal PHY> on miibus0 xlphy0: 10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, auto pcib1: on motherboard pci2: on pcib1 fdc0: at port 0x3f0-0x3f5,0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa0 fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: <1440-KB 3.5" drive> on fdc0 drive 0 atkbdc0: at port 0x60,0x64 on isa0 atkbd0: flags 0x1 irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 vga0: at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on isa0 sc0: at flags 0x100 on isa0 sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> sio0 at port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa0 sio0: type 16550A sio1: configured irq 3 not in bitmap of probed irqs 0 ppc0: cannot reserve I/O port range ata0-master: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr ata0-master: identify failed ad2: 39082MB [79406/16/63] at ata1-master UDMA66 acd0: CDROM at ata0-slave using PIO4 acd1: CD-RW at ata1-slave using PIO4 Mounting root from ufs:/dev/ad2s1a To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 21:12:34 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 21:12:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859F337B400; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b ([24.0.36.170]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001219051229.BXQE15927.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx443070b>; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:12:29 -0800 Message-ID: <001601c0697a$9abb8100$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Mike Smith" Cc: , References: <200012182131.eBILVFQ09212@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: DOS Emulation KLD Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:14:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > What's wrong with doscmd ? I hadn't noticed this one used BSD filesystems > > in addition to image files. That was my #1 issue with some of the other > > emulators. > > It needs a lot of TLC; there are plenty of places where it could be > usefully extended as well. > > One might also consider abandoning it entirely and making plex86 work, if > one was really interested in that sort of thing. Thanks for the information. I have alot of DOS programming experience, and although little BSD programming experience, I have read quite a bit and attended a 4.x KLD authoring conference at ToorCon. Since I understand low level DOS implementation (I've worked with the FreeDOS project too), I'm taking a look at doscmd and I'm going to try to contribute to this project. It seems delightfully simple in its design. I see some of the rough edges you're talking about, but I believe you're right, it's nothing a little TLC can't take care of. Thanks again for your help on the subject. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 21:31:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 21:31:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B59E37B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBJ5Vbv54005; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 21:31:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012190531.eBJ5Vbv54005@earth.backplane.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Need to edit VM tuning section in handbook, any special requirements? Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there anything special I need to do to edit a section in the handbook, or can I just commit it? -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 23: 6:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 23:06:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (mailextj1.compaq.co.jp [161.114.192.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4684937B402 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (Postfix, from userid 12345) id 49EE7990; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:05:58 +0900 (JST) Received: from exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net (exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net [16.161.3.218]) by mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCFB1B2B for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:05:54 +0900 (JST) Received: by exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:05:53 +0900 Message-ID: From: "Aoyama, Kieko" To: "'freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org'" Cc: "Aoyama, Kieko" Subject: Floppy disk is full Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:05:50 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I am Kieko Aoyama. I am working at Compaq Computer K.K. in Japan. Please tell me the way of "getting boot.flp,fixit.flp,....,kern.flp from FTP directory" But, I know the location of FTP directory,and I am going to getting these files to floppy disk(1.6MB). And I get the ERROR "You cannot write the file to disk". The OS that I'm using is Windows2000. And I am getting these files to drive A:. Please show me the way. --- Kieko AOYAMA@Compaq Computer K.K. Tel:03-5349-4491(4491) Fax:03-5349-7458 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Dec 18 23:16: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Dec 18 23:15:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from 2711.dynacom.net (2711.dynacom.net [206.107.213.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3108337B400 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from urx.com (dsl1-160.dynacom.net [206.159.132.160]) by 2711.dynacom.net (Build 101 8.9.3/NT-8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01428; Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:15:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3A3F0AF5.75628C1@urx.com> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 23:15:01 -0800 From: Kent Stewart Reply-To: kstewart@urx.com Organization: Dynacom X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Aoyama, Kieko" Cc: "'freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org'" Subject: Re: Floppy disk is full References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Aoyama, Kieko" wrote: > > Hello, I am Kieko Aoyama. > > I am working at Compaq Computer K.K. in Japan. > Please tell me the way of > "getting boot.flp,fixit.flp,....,kern.flp from FTP directory" > > But, > I know the location of FTP directory,and I am going to getting these files > to floppy disk(1.6MB). > And I get the ERROR "You cannot write the file to disk". > > The OS that I'm using is Windows2000. > And I am getting these files to drive A:. > Please show me the way. You have to use fdimage from the /tools directory since they are images of the floppy. Kent > > --- > Kieko AOYAMA@Compaq Computer K.K. > Tel:03-5349-4491(4491) > Fax:03-5349-7458 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA mailto:kbstew99@hotmail.com http://kstewart.urx.com/kstewart/index.html FreeBSD News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 2: 1:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 02:01:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from bsas1i.audiotel.com.ar (host030038.prima.com.ar [200.42.30.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779C537B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from audi6t (audi6t.audiotel.com.ar [192.168.100.206]) by bsas1i.audiotel.com.ar (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24316; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 07:00:19 -0300 (ART) (envelope-from emaiz@audiotel.com.ar) From: "Enrique Maiz" To: , "Aoyama, Kieko" Cc: "'freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org'" Subject: RE: Floppy disk is full Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:51:57 -0300 Message-ID: <000701c069a1$539070c0$ce64a8c0@audiotel.com.ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3A3F0AF5.75628C1@urx.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]En nombre de Kent Stewart > Enviado el: Martes 19 de Diciembre de 2000 04:15 > Para: Aoyama, Kieko > Cc: 'freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org' > Asunto: Re: Floppy disk is full > > > > > "Aoyama, Kieko" wrote: > > > > Hello, I am Kieko Aoyama. > > > > I am working at Compaq Computer K.K. in Japan. > > Please tell me the way of > > "getting boot.flp,fixit.flp,....,kern.flp from FTP directory" > > > > But, > > I know the location of FTP directory,and I am going to getting these files > > to floppy disk(1.6MB). > > And I get the ERROR "You cannot write the file to disk". > > > > The OS that I'm using is Windows2000. > > And I am getting these files to drive A:. > > Please show me the way. > > You have to use fdimage from the /tools directory since they are > images of the floppy. > > Kent > > > > > --- > > Kieko AOYAMA@Compaq Computer K.K. > > Tel:03-5349-4491(4491) > > Fax:03-5349-7458 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > -- > Kent Stewart > Richland, WA > > mailto:kbstew99@hotmail.com > http://kstewart.urx.com/kstewart/index.html > FreeBSD News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 2:56:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 02:56:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ppp133.comintern.ru (ppp133.comintern.ru [213.148.2.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C09137B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:56:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ïðîãðàììà Ðåãèîí To: Subject: Ïðîãðàììà Ðåãèîí - ïîääåðæêà ðåãèîíàëüíîãî áèçíåñà â Ìîñêâå X-Mailer: PersMail 2.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1251 Message-Id: <20001219105626.4C09137B400@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 02:56:26 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -==Ïðîãðàììà===Ðåãèîí==-
Åñëè Âû ïîëó÷èëè ýòî ïèñüìî âòîðè÷íî, òî çàðàíåå ïðèìèòå íàøè èçâèíåíèÿ, ýòî ñâÿçàíî ñ îøèáêàìè ñåðâåðà
Ïðîãðàììà Ðåãèîí
          Óñëóãè ïðèåçæàþùèì â Ìîñêâó   ||    Óñëóãè ïðèåçæàþùèì â Ìîñêâó



000 "Ïðîãðàììà Ðåãèîí" â ñîñòàâå 000 "Ñàëàíô-Ñåðâèñ" è 000 " Êîììóíèêàòèâíûé áèçíåñ-öåíòð" ðàáîòàåò íà ðûíêå óñëóã â Ìîñêâå ñ íîÿáðÿ 1994 ãîäà.
Ñïåöèàëèçàöèÿ "Êîìïëåêñíûå óñëóãè ïðèåçæàþùèì â Ìîñêâó ïðåäñòàâèòåëÿì ðåãèîíàëüîãî áèçíåñà".
Êëèåíòñêèé ñïèñîê íà ñåãîäíÿ âêëþ÷àåò ïðåäïðèÿòèÿ ðàçëè÷íûõ ôîðì ñîáñòâåííîñòè èç 16 ðåãèîíîâ ñòðàíû.
Ïåðå÷åíü óñëóã ïîñòîÿííî ðàñøèðÿåòñÿ â çàâèñèìîñòè îò íàëè÷èÿ ïðîáëåì êëèåíòà.
 íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ ìû ïðåäëàãàåì íà äîãîâîðíîé îñíîâå:
1 ÀÂÒÎÌÎÁÈËÜ ñ âîäèòåëåì â Ìîñêâå îò àýðîïîðòà è ïî ãîðîäó.
2 Áðîíèðîâàíèå ÃÎÑÒÈÍÈÖ.
3 ÁÈËÅÒÛ àâèà è æ/ä.
4 ÔÈÍÀÍÑÎÂÛÅ óñëóãè â Ìîñêâå.
5 ÂÈÇÛ â ëþáóþ ñòðàíó, çàêàç îòåëÿ è ìàøèíû.
6 VIP-ÎÒÄÛÕ.
7 Ïîêóïêà ÂÅÊÑÅËÅÉ áàíêîâñêèõ è ÎÀÎ "Ãàçïðîì".
8 ÏÐÅÄÑÒÀÂÈÒÅËÜÑÒÂÎ.
9 Çàêóïêà è ÎÒÏÐÀÂÊÀ òîâàðîâ â ðåãèîíû è ìíîãîå äðóãîå


Åñëè Âû çàèíòåðåñîâàëèñü, òî îñòàâüòå çàÿâêó íà îçíàêîìëåíèå ñ äîãîâîðîì

  Àäðåñ: 125319, ã.Ìîñêâà, ×åòâåðòàÿ óëèöà 8-îãî Ìàðòà, ä. 3   ||   Äëÿ ïî÷òû: 125422, ã. Ìîñêâà, à/ÿ 3.
 Ôàêñ: (095) 152-93-40  ||  Òåë.: (095) 152-44-96, (095) 784-33-63,  ||  e-mail: pregion@nm.ru,  ||  ñàéò: pregion.nm.ru

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www.asuimp.ru - "Áèçíåñ-ñïðàâî÷íèêè è áàçû äàííûõ"
www.e-kniga.ru - "Ýëåêòðîííàÿ áèáëèîòåêà" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 3:12:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 03:12:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1A837B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:12:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA01430; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:12:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Christian Kuhtz" Cc: Subject: Re: ata weirdness References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 19 Dec 2000 12:12:01 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Christian Kuhtz"'s message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 04:08:33 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Christian Kuhtz" writes: > 1st channel: > Maxtor 54098U8 UDMA4 > Kenwood CD-R UDMA2 > > 2nd channel > Maxtor 54098U8 UDMA4 > HP CD Writer 9300 UDMA2 > > [...] > > ata0-master: ata_command: timeout waiting for intr > ata0-master: ata_command: identify failed > ad2: 39082MB [79406/16/63] at ata1-master UDMA66 > I bet your CD-ROM is incorrectly configured as master. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 3:20:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 03:20:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC1837B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 03:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBJB0XH15003; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:00:33 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:00:33 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Matt Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need to edit VM tuning section in handbook, any special requirements? Message-ID: <20001219110033.B14950@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200012190531.eBJ5Vbv54005@earth.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012190531.eBJ5Vbv54005@earth.backplane.com>; from dillon@earth.backplane.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:31:37PM -0800 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:31:37PM -0800, Matt Dillon wrote: > Is there anything special I need to do to edit a section in the > handbook, or can I just commit it? A pass through -doc for review wouldn't be amiss. In general, this means that we make sure that none of the rules at http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/docproj-primer/writing-style.html are broken. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 6: 1:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 06:01:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fep23-svc.tin.it (mta23-acc.tin.it [212.216.176.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFE437B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lorix ([213.45.186.78]) by fep23-svc.tin.it (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with SMTP id <20001219140107.HRQO12673.fep23-svc.tin.it@lorix>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:01:07 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c069c3$eb69e9e0$016464c8@lorix> From: "Loris Degioanni" To: "Michael T. Stolarchuk" Cc: , , , , , , References: <200012141539.eBEFdNH30483@off.off.to> Subject: R: R: [tcpdump-workers] Re: R: [Ethereal-dev] Re: Fwd: kyxtech: freebsd outsniffed by wintendo !!?!? Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:57:18 +0100 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. -----Messaggio Originale----- Da: Michael T. Stolarchuk A: Loris Degioanni Data invio: giovedì 14 dicembre 2000 16.39 Oggetto: Re: R: [tcpdump-workers] Re: R: [Ethereal-dev] Re: Fwd: kyxtech: freebsd outsniffed by wintendo !!?!? > > ah, but the buffer sizes are fixed, and when the second buffer > is full, packets are lost. yes, the tap runs at a higher prio > than the buffer, but that doesn't alone guarnatee you won't > see packet loss. > > (btw: i can confirm that behavior because i've had to work with it... > i'm familiar with these effects since i wrote the nfrd sniffing > and protocol decomposition stack) > > Or saying it another way: if you increase the buffer sizes, say > to 1M each, and you're using, say completely saturdated 100Mb, > which means 12.5Mbyes/sec, you have to get the copy out of bpf > to process space in 1/12.5Mb/sec->80 Millisec. > > > By copy rates, that's a long time. But, typical BPF sleep > prioirities are LOW, which means that other processes complete > with the bpf-processes restart to gain the processor. (As > i recall, that has been fixed in a few architecutres). So if the > bpf is run on a loaded machine (ie: a typical intrusion detection system) > you still see periodic packet loss. That also partially explains > why just test-sniffing the traffic isn't sufficient to test a platform > for its ability to perform a decent job at ids... Ok, but I was testing only the capture performance, without any other process running at user level. In this situation, increasing the size of the buffer from 32k to 1M should give considerably better performance. This happens regularly in Windows, but very strangely, does not seem to happen in freebsd. > >`wintendo' sniffing is done in a way very similar to the one of BPF. > >With the same buffer size, the number of context switches is > >approximatly the same. > > I'm sorry, but i don't see that in your paper. Near the bottom of > the paper it says that windoes sniffing buffers are 1M large. There > are *very few* bpf's with buffers that large. In fact, in several > kernels which i've used, multiple 1M kernel alloc's for space will > cause the kernel to hang indefinitly (due to multiple 1M vm space > allocations). i started my first reply with your text snippet noting > the buffer size differences. Sorry, my phrase was not clear. I speak English like Tarzan... :-) I was trying to say that if you set the same buffer size in winpcap and in BPF, you will obtain approximately the same number of system calls, because the structure and the basic optimizations are the same. I say 'approximately' because this parameter is fixed in freebsd, while in windows it is possible to change it. However, standard buffer sizes are different, and I confirm that the buffer in windows is usually 1M. Notice that this size can be increased to bigger values without problems, and this seems to increase capture performance quite linearly. For example, on my Win2000 machine with 64M of RAM I am able to set a 40M kernel buffer, that grants very good performance when dumping to disk a 100Mbit ethernet. > Also, in the same article, there's not attempt at trying to > uncover the cause of performance difference, i don't see > measurements of context switch rates, number of kernel system > calls, nor number of interrupts. If i have missed it somewhere > please let me know. Measuring these values can be quite complex, and we are not sure to do it properly in freebsd. My opinion, however, is that the discrepancy in performance is due not only to the number of system calls, but also to architectural differences, for example: - BPF is optimized to use small buffers, winpcap for big buffers. The circular buffer architecture of winpcap is more efficient with a 1M buffer. - DMA (or polling) transfers from the NIC driver to the RAM are handled more effectively by Windows than by freebsd. > What i wish i had is a good tool to discover what is going on during > the bpf packet loss. I was hoping (a few years back) to instructment > a kernel, so that instead of being able to profile the sniffing > process via statistical information about clock-tics, i could instead > collect statistical about what was going on during bpf-packet-loss > (ie: when the bpf second buffer is full). Turns out, that's hard > to do, but i haven't forgotten how worthwhile such a hack would be... Yes, it would be very intersresting. Another interesting thing, in my opinion, would be the development of a standard benchmark to measure the performance of a capture architecture/program. This would allow to test precisely and impartially a capture system, and to obtain acceptable comparisons/references among different systems. Anyone interested at working on this? Loris. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 8: 4:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 08:04:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BCE837B404 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:04:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18841 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2000 16:04:07 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:04:07 +0100 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Warner Losh Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001219170407.B18137@rohrbach.de> Reply-To: karsten@rohrbach.de References: <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <200012182119.OAA94431@harmony.village.org> <20001218162732.A70076@peorth.iteration.net> <200012190021.RAA95681@harmony.village.org> <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> <200012190040.RAA95960@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200012190040.RAA95960@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 05:40:11PM -0700 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 X-Sender: karsten@rohrbach.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG just call it "installmoon" ;> *chuckle* /k Warner Losh(imp@village.org)@Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 05:40:11PM -0700: > In message <20001218183549.B9025@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: > : Would 20mb be a comfortable target for > : "make buildsmallworld installsmallworld" ? The build would have to > : be interactive. And the interactive build can record all the > : options/choices done by the user for future builds. That > : leaves room for everyone to use at least 4mb on 24mb CF media, > : and 12mb on 32mb CF media. > > I don't wnat it to be interactive at all. I would support having a > configuration program that would be interactive, but the install > should just do it. > > I also do not expect to have a special buildsmallworld target. Just a > smallinstall target since there are many tools that should be built > that I don't want to short circuit. Installing just a subset isn't a > problem at all. > > There are also some minor problems in the current build system that > need to be reoslved for having a runtime-only install for some > components. These are mostly nits, but they can be worked around. > > Warner > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- > Why marry a virgin? If she wasn't good enough for the rest of them > then she isn't good enough for you. KR433/KR11-RIPE -- http://www.webmonster.de -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 8:40:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 08:40:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E54A37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA74111; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:42:20 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:43:17 -0500 To: Boris , Murray Stokely From: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <16785804580.20001219030629@x-itec.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Device Drivers >-------------- >I don=B4t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should not= =20 require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters)=20 support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he=20 can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF=20 hes a good enough coder to get it done. case and point: How many of us are sitting on our hands waiting for DG to=20 have time to fix the latest snafu in the if_fxp driver? You cant blame him= =20 for having a job and earning a living, but the fact is that only he has=20 enough experience with the part to do the job. We all have source, but who= =20 wants to spend a couple of weeks learning the intricacies of a very complex= =20 part to fix what amounts to a very small bug? You NEED source in linux and freebsd and the like because manufacturers=20 dont support their cards for these OSs and the drivers are a continuous=20 work in progress. Drivers are fixed only AFTER a problem with a new=20 revision part is encountered, which undermines a companies abiltiy to do=20 its work and to have confidence that they will have a solution in the= future. I'd take a driver disk with a binary driver with each shipment of cards ANY= =20 DAY over having to cross my fingers that the current FreeBSD driver works=20 with them. Drivers written in linux and freebsd, for example, are often "guesses" of=20 how things work because exact documents are not available. The concept that= =20 some programmer, as good as he may be, working in his spare time on a=20 driver without full documentation is more desirable than code provided by=20 the manufacturer is so short-sighted that is illustrates that the author=20 has no concept of reality. "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a clue what=20 to do with source code. They want products that just work. Your=20 recommendation, if you make such a recommendation regarding "source over=20 binary", suits your own requirements and not that of your client or readers= =20 and shows very poor judgement. DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 8:45:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 08:45:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA3337B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJGiwf43072; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:44:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Dennis Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:43:17 EST." <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:44:58 +0100 Message-ID: <43070.977244298@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com>, Dennis writes: > >>Device Drivers >>-------------- >>I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating >>system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to >>publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > >You've lost all credibility here. We have a saying in Denmark, which I'm sure exist in as many forms as there are languages in the world: "A thief belive everybody steals." Dennis, considering the recorded history of your arguments in our mailing list archives, hearing you come out and praise closed source drivers for open source OS's rings very very hollow. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9: 1:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:01:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.universe.dart.spb (bb.marketsite.ru [194.226.198.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8C1B37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from runnet-gw.marketsite.ru (WILD [192.168.1.24]) by exchange.universe.dart.spb with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id XPK2PAVK; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:01:03 +0300 Content-Length: 1422 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:01:10 +0300 (MSK) Reply-To: diwil@dataart.com Sender: diwil@runnet-gw.marketsite.ru From: Dmitry Dicky To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: recvfrom() and signals Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello fellows, I just faced with a problem of a strange (may be not documented) recvfrom() behaviour. The fragment of the code is: ... signal(SIGALRM, timeouttrap); alarm(10); i = recvfrom(sock, buf, len, 0, from, fromlen); printf("%d bytes received\n",i); .... void timeouttrap(int sig) { printf(">> %d", sig); return; } I use non blocking socket and it receives data with no problems. When alarm occures, the signal delivered to the process and alarm handler prints a signal number. As I understand after this recvfrom should return -1 and errno should be set to EINTR. BUt, upon signal delivery (actually any signal, CHLD for example) recvfrom() still hangs the program execution and awaits data. However, man pages say that recvfrom() will return -1 if the call has been interrupted. Is this a system bug or just my misunderstanding? Thank you in advance, Dmitry. -- ********************************************************************** ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ (\ Dimmy the Wild UA1ACZ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) DataArt Enterprises, Inc. (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' Serpukhovskaja street, 10 _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' Saint Petersburg, Russia (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' +7 (812) 3261780, 5585314 ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9:25: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:25:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E9737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:25:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA74326; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:24:54 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:25:43 -0500 To: Poul-Henning Kamp From: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <43070.977244298@critter> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:44 AM 12/19/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com>, Dennis= writes: > > > >>Device Drivers > >>-------------- > >>I don=B4t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > >>system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > >>publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > > > >You've lost all credibility here. > >We have a saying in Denmark, which I'm sure exist in as many forms >as there are languages in the world: > > "A thief belive everybody steals." > >Dennis, considering the recorded history of your arguments in our >mailing list archives, hearing you come out and praise closed source >drivers for open source OS's rings very very hollow. did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING=20 about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. I didnt "praise" closed source. I said there is arguable reasoning behind=20 preferring supported binary drivers that work over incomplete source=20 drivers. Selecting an OS based solely on this criteria is just plain=20 stupid. Drivers generally do not require changes unless they are buggy. And= =20 the general public is generally no capable of maintaining a card driver=20 with intricate knowledge of the controllers, which is no simple task. We have a saying in the US. "communism failed because its very essence=20 breeds mediocrity". Your inabiltity to understand a business model that=20 includes protecting corporate-funded assets, when MOST of the world's=20 corporations adhere exclusively to such a model, shows how little you know= =20 about business in general. Your stupidity is also is emphasized by the fact that no major manufacturer= =20 has supported drivers for freebsd. Intel wont even help by providing docs.= =20 Bravo. What a WIN for the freebsd community. You've done a tremendous job=20 marketing your concept. Am I a thief because my company provides value added solutions without=20 source to our enhancements on a freebsd platform? If you are insulted that= =20 other people are using your work without paying for it then it sounds like= =20 you dont fit in very well with the "open source" community Mr. Kamp. DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9:36:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:36:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natmail2.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CAB37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastion.localhost (p3E9E174A.dip.t-dialin.net [62.158.23.74]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02254; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:44 +0100 (MET) Received: from masterpc (master [192.168.0.1]) by bastion.localhost (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJHb5G03790; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:37:05 GMT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:16 -0800 From: Boris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.46d) Personal Reply-To: Boris X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1567298284.20001219183616@x-itec.de> To: Dennis Cc: Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re[2]: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Dennis, Tuesday, December 19, 2000, 8:43:17 AM, you wrote: D> You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should not D> require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) D> support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he D> can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF D> hes a good enough coder to get it done. I really don´t think so. A hardware manufacter can give out the source and provide support, too. We all can benefit of this, because some people will begin to optimize something. If there is a free operating system with sources, the drivers should be free, too. Developing an OS takes more knowledge than developing a driver. As I said, I won´t have the same lame situation as on windows. If there is something wrong, I will have to look at the sources, too. And it´s not very complex to compile something. And if something like (compile, make, make install) is too complex, I don´t know what to say anymore. However, I won´t accept binary-only drivers or apps in any form. It is and it will be possible in the feature to develop and distribute progs with sourcecode, especially device drivers. It is a risk, but no ris(c|k) no fun -) TRUST NO ONE. We have a great operating system here. Why should we blame it with binary-only files??? I won´t. -- Best regards, Boris mailto:koester@x-itec.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9:45: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:45:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D347D37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBJHj5b15225; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:45:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:45:05 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dmitry Dicky Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recvfrom() and signals Message-ID: <20001219094505.P19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from diwil@dataart.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:01:10PM +0300 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Dmitry Dicky [001219 09:01] wrote: > > I use non blocking socket and it receives data with no problems. > When alarm occures, the signal delivered to the process and alarm handler > prints a signal number. As I understand after this recvfrom should > return -1 and errno should be set to EINTR. > > BUt, upon signal delivery (actually any signal, CHLD for example) > recvfrom() still hangs the program execution and awaits data. > > However, man pages say that recvfrom() will return -1 if the call has been > interrupted. > > Is this a system bug or just my misunderstanding? See the sigaction manpage and how one enable/disables system call restarts. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9:50:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:50:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp (shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp [133.30.50.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01ABA37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA50228; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:50:25 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from takawata@shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp) Message-Id: <200012191750.CAA50228@shidahara1.planet.sci.kobe-u.ac.jp> To: current@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Call for review:PECOFF(Win32 Execution format) module. Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:50:25 +0900 From: Takanori Watanabe Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I want to commit pecoff module under sys/compat/. The code is at http://people.freebsd.org/~takawata/pecoff.tar.gz This is kernel part of PEACE(http://chiharu.haun.org/peace/),that is announced as NewFeature of NetBSD1.5. Currently one more kernel module is needed to use PEACE in FreeBSD. If there is no objection, I will commit it. Thanks. Takanori Watanabe Public Key Key fingerprint = 2C 51 E2 78 2C E1 C5 2D 0F F1 20 A3 11 3A 62 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 9:57:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 09:57:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40FE337B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanczos.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Dec 2000 17:57:34 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:57:32 +0000 From: David Malone To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Dmitry Dicky , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recvfrom() and signals Message-ID: <20001219175732.A7496@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie> References: <20001219094505.P19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219094505.P19572@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:45:05AM -0800 Sender: dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:45:05AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > See the sigaction manpage and how one enable/disables system call > restarts. He is setting the signal handler with signal(), which calls sigaction() without the SA_RESTART flag set, so it seems that should interrupt recvfrom(). It is possible that something is calling siginterrupt() somewhere which changes what signal() does? David. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:12:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:12:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF62537B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b ([24.0.36.170]) by femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001219181225.PZQS17073.femail8.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx443070b>; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:12:25 -0800 Message-ID: <001401c069e7$8ed5c4f0$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Poul-Henning Kamp" , "Dennis" Cc: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:14:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >>Device Drivers > >>-------------- > >>I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > >>system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > >>publish the sourcecode, the should go away. Dennis said: /* I didnt "praise" closed source. I said there is arguable reasoning behind preferring supported binary drivers that work over incomplete source drivers. Selecting an OS based solely on this criteria is just plain stupid. Drivers generally do not require changes unless they are buggy. And the general public is generally no capable of maintaining a card driver with intricate knowledge of the controllers, which is no simple task. We have a saying in the US. "communism failed because its very essence breeds mediocrity". Your inabiltity to understand a business model that includes protecting corporate-funded assets, when MOST of the world's corporations adhere exclusively to such a model, shows how little you know about business in general. Your stupidity is also is emphasized by the fact that no major manufacturer has supported drivers for freebsd. Intel wont even help by providing docs. Bravo. What a WIN for the freebsd community. You've done a tremendous job marketing your concept. */ Well spoken Dennis. I must agree. While the open source concept is great, and we would PREFER that companies release open sourced drivers, I would prefer a binary driver from the company over a driver that someone in the freebsd camp put together based on whatever reverse engineering he could pull off. Not that I don't appreciate the work of the people who write BSD drivers, the people who put time and effort into BSD drivers are some of my favorite people in the world, but it's terribly obvious that if a card or device is not documented, that the company is going to provide a better binary driver than what a BSD programmer could put together (okay, broad generalization, but I'll stand by it in most cases). The closed source business model still lives, and hardware manufacturers cannot see why they should have to give out their source code. They hardly see the need to provide drivers for non-Microsoft operating systems, much less open sourced drivers. I'm afraid we're not quite in the position to make demands on hardware companies. If we establish a relationship with them, and represent ourselves as respectable professionals, this will ease the transition, and perhaps someday after using the binary versions of their drivers, we ask them to open the source. The statement "if a company does not want to publish the sourcecode, the(y) should go away." is the most foolish thing I've heard in a long time. The first step in moving up the ladder is realizing what rung you're currently standing on. If FreeBSD were to "boycott" or intentionally fail to support any particular hardware, the only losers would be us. If the Linux kiddies want to be the rabid open sourcers, and make demands of big companies fine. If they succeed, so do we (open source to them is open source to us). :) Why should both communities look like rabid idiots ? We can play the more calm professional role, like we usually do, and take either binaries or open source. Eventually, hopefully, the hardware manufacturers will come around and open up the source code on drivers. But if you're the kind of guy who wouldn't use a newer faster FreeBSD Adaptec SCSI driver because it's binary only, then that puts you in a class of people I like to refer to as 'rabid open source idiots'. I prefer to use the best of both worlds. And try to think a little bit if you can, when it comes to hardware manufacturers, who certainly see them selves ALOT higher on the ladder than we are, perhaps honey will get you more driver support than vinegar. :) Jeremiah Gowdy Network Administrator Sherline Products To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:17:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:17:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A9537B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id NAA12062; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:15:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:15:50 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Eischen To: David Malone Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Dmitry Dicky , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recvfrom() and signals In-Reply-To: <20001219175732.A7496@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, David Malone wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:45:05AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > See the sigaction manpage and how one enable/disables system call > > restarts. > > He is setting the signal handler with signal(), which calls > sigaction() without the SA_RESTART flag set, so it seems that should > interrupt recvfrom(). Bzzt :-) Alfred's correct. Read the manpage for signal again. To Dmitry: Don't use antiquated signal. Use sigaction and don't set the SA_RESTART flag. -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:20:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:20:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3BA37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from foo.osd.bsdi.com (root@foo.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.137]) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBJIHOE57003; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:17:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by foo.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) id eBJIGAe92965; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhb) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:16:09 -0800 (PST) Organization: BSD, Inc. From: John Baldwin To: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: jhb@foo.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19-Dec-00 Dennis wrote: > At 11:44 AM 12/19/2000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >>In message <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com>, Dennis >>writes: >> > >> >>Device Drivers >> >>-------------- >> >>I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating >> >>system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to >> >>publish the sourcecode, the should go away. >> > >> >You've lost all credibility here. >> >>We have a saying in Denmark, which I'm sure exist in as many forms >>as there are languages in the world: >> >> "A thief belive everybody steals." >> >>Dennis, considering the recorded history of your arguments in our >>mailing list archives, hearing you come out and praise closed source >>drivers for open source OS's rings very very hollow. > > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. Umm. Dennis, there's this part of English called "figurative language". It involves things like similes, metaphors, etc. I suggest you go read up on it. Things like poetry, humor, etc. really depend on you understanding how it works. Even elementary school English classses in the U.S. cover such language basics. > I didnt "praise" closed source. I said there is arguable reasoning behind > preferring supported binary drivers that work over incomplete source > drivers. Selecting an OS based solely on this criteria is just plain > stupid. Drivers generally do not require changes unless they are buggy. And > the general public is generally no capable of maintaining a card driver > with intricate knowledge of the controllers, which is no simple task. Drivers can require changes because hardware is buggy and doesn't live up to its specs as well. Also, the driver that comes no your disk is not bug free either. :) I still would trust a driver that comes from the company however as their coders have access to the docco. (At least, one would hope they do.) > We have a saying in the US. "communism failed because its very essence > breeds mediocrity". Your inabiltity to understand a business model that > includes protecting corporate-funded assets, when MOST of the world's > corporations adhere exclusively to such a model, shows how little you know > about business in general. Hmmm. It seems you have gone off on a tangent here to scream and make yourself be heard. > Your stupidity is also is emphasized by the fact that no major manufacturer > has supported drivers for freebsd. Intel wont even help by providing docs. > Bravo. What a WIN for the freebsd community. You've done a tremendous job > marketing your concept. So that's why Intel provides free bound copies of their IA-64 books and PDF's of the other chip manuals, PXE manuals, etc. I guess all those data sheets I've seen Bill Paul pore over while working on his ethernet drivers were just figments of my imagination as well. > Am I a thief because my company provides value added solutions without > source to our enhancements on a freebsd platform? If you are insulted that > other people are using your work without paying for it then it sounds like > you dont fit in very well with the "open source" community Mr. Kamp. Well, since you didn't get Poul's idiom, here's the native US version: "It takes one to know one." His point being that your claim that the original poster had lost all credibility in your judgement is rather hypocritical. I don't think anyone in the BSD camp is upset by people using BSD commercially. We'd all be GPL bigots if we were. :) Really, the world does not hate you, and we are not all evil. > DB -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.Baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:25:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:25:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CAF4837B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lanczos.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 Dec 2000 18:25:28 +0000 (GMT) To: Daniel Eischen Cc: David Malone , Alfred Perlstein , Dmitry Dicky , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie Subject: Re: recvfrom() and signals In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:15:50 EST." X-Request-Do: Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:28 +0000 From: David Malone Message-ID: <200012191825.aa15924@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > He is setting the signal handler with signal(), which calls > > sigaction() without the SA_RESTART flag set, so it seems that should > > interrupt recvfrom(). > Bzzt :-) Alfred's correct. Read the manpage for signal again. Ahh - I was reading the source code and missed the ! in !sigismember(). I was thinking of people using alarm() to timeout recvfrom() using a sigsetjmp(), but you don't need the syscall to be interrupted for that. *less confused now* > To Dmitry: Don't use antiquated signal. Use sigaction and don't > set the SA_RESTART flag. Indeedy! David. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:40: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:39:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3324137B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:39:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5796A57309; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:39:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:39:56 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Dennis Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: <20001219123956.A30283@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Dennis , Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <16785804580.20001219030629@x-itec.de> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:43:17AM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:43:17AM -0500, Dennis scribbled: | | >Device Drivers | >-------------- | >I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating | >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to | >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. | | You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should not No, he is simply stating his opinion. In addition, a well supported should include both the source *and* the binary. At least one of the reasons would be that customers who have top of the line drivers may wish to customize the behavior of the hardware. | require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) Have you ever used Realtek stock drivers on Win32? Have you tried to find a Neomagic driver on Win2K? Have you tried to find a driver for Solaris? Let's even see you try to use the newest Intel fxp0 driver for win32 and lose old functions. | support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he | can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF | hes a good enough coder to get it done. | | case and point: How many of us are sitting on our hands waiting for DG to | have time to fix the latest snafu in the if_fxp driver? You cant blame him | for having a job and earning a living, but the fact is that only he has | enough experience with the part to do the job. We all have source, but who | wants to spend a couple of weeks learning the intricacies of a very complex | part to fix what amounts to a very small bug? Many of us do. | You NEED source in linux and freebsd and the like because manufacturers | dont support their cards for these OSs and the drivers are a continuous | work in progress. Drivers are fixed only AFTER a problem with a new | revision part is encountered, which undermines a companies abiltiy to do | its work and to have confidence that they will have a solution in the future. If you don't like it, please don't use it. | I'd take a driver disk with a binary driver with each shipment of cards ANY | DAY over having to cross my fingers that the current FreeBSD driver works | with them. They work perfectly. On my systems, I could not get a good Brooktree driver for Win32. FreeBSD works fine. My Intel 82559 cards work fine. The newest Win2K Orinoco Wavelan driver cannot do ad-hoc mode, | Drivers written in linux and freebsd, for example, are often "guesses" of | how things work because exact documents are not available. The concept that No, we read datasheets like everybody else. | some programmer, as good as he may be, working in his spare time on a | driver without full documentation is more desirable than code provided by | the manufacturer is so short-sighted that is illustrates that the author | has no concept of reality. In that case, why are you using it? | "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a clue what | to do with source code. They want products that just work. Your Yes, FreeBSD just works. | recommendation, if you make such a recommendation regarding "source over | binary", suits your own requirements and not that of your client or readers | and shows very poor judgement. So does yours. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:42:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:42:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49D237B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13083; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200012191838.KAA13083@implode.root.com> To: John Baldwin Cc: Dennis , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:16:09 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:38:32 -0800 Sender: dg@implode.root.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Your stupidity is also is emphasized by the fact that no major manufacturer >> has supported drivers for freebsd. Intel wont even help by providing docs. >> Bravo. What a WIN for the freebsd community. You've done a tremendous job >> marketing your concept. > >So that's why Intel provides free bound copies of their IA-64 books and PDF's >of the other chip manuals, PXE manuals, etc. I guess all those data sheets >I've seen Bill Paul pore over while working on his ethernet drivers were just >figments of my imagination as well. I think he's refering to the 82559 manual. It is available from Intel to developers, but only with an NDA. For various reasons, I can't sign an NDA for that information without putting myself in legal jeopardy. That has always been true, but I was able to obtain the [now older] 82557 manual without an NDA due to a screwup at Intel - which allowed me to write the original fxp driver. Unfortunately, a few things have changed since then, especially in the SEEPROM area and the only method I have of fixing those problems these days is by reverse-engineering. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 10:57: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 10:56:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E4937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:56:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 1820357308; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:56:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:56:58 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Devin Butterfield Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net>; from dbutter@wireless.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:14:10PM -0800 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:14:10PM -0800, Devin Butterfield scribbled: | "Michael C . Wu" wrote: | > The most important decision now would be: | > Should we concentrate on the PPC port first? Or should we go at each | > port simultaneously? | | Well, if there are enough people with PCC's that are interested in | helping with the effort then perhaps pursuing the PPC port first would | make more sense. I don't have a PPC so I couldn't help out there... | | If the decision is to pursue a StrongARM port then you can count me in. I'm definitely interested in both StrongARM and PPC. (and so are very many people) My understanding is that FreeBSD *wants* a FreeBSD/ARM, but lack the resources/man-power to do so. I'd prefer to see an official decision on the above by someone (hint hint -core :)) though. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 11:18:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 11:18:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.popsite.net (smtp.popsite.net [216.126.128.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D5937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:18:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from javagear.com (5613-004.001.popsite.net [64.24.60.4]) by smtp.popsite.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76F7FE94; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:18:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3A3FB4AF.106716C6@javagear.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:19:12 -0600 From: Paul Becke Reply-To: pbecke@javagear.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have been working for several months to port NetBSD to a new StrongArm platform. I currently am using the Intel Assabet as my development platform. Based on my experience with NetBSD, I think that I could be of assistance in initiating a FreeBSD port. I actually do most of my development unsing an Arm cross compliler on a FreeBSD platform. What does it take to start up a new mailing list for proting to the Arm? (Who do I need to contact?) If we can identify a handfull of people who are interrested, I think we could make some quick progress. Paul Becke To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12: 3:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:03:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hnmail7.dac.migros.ch (mail2.gmaare.migros.ch [164.14.132.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D83237B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by hnmail7.dac.migros.ch with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:02:09 +0100 Received: from gmaare.migros.net (hunetm03.dac.migros.ch [10.16.61.22]) by hnmail2.dac.migros.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id YZ2W3HA0; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:02:04 +0100 From: Andreas Brodmann To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3A3FBE6A.7FB354BE@gmaare.migros.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:00:42 +0100 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: nfs root mount -> nfsv2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am setting up a base image for a couple of network services servers being nfs root mounted ontop of a netapp filer. When I traced a problem with ethereal i found (or the sniffer claimed) that the nfs version that's used is v2 not v3. Due to some nfsv2 limitations I would like to get the systems use nfsv3 which the netapp files fully supports. Can anyone possibly the developer of the nfs root part of the kernel or of the pxe loader (which loads the kernel via nfsv2) help me on this? Thank's in advance Andreas --- switch Andreas Brodmann Telecommunications Dept. Migros Aare To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12: 6: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:06:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DA5837B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00953 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:03:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from 206-132-48-12.nas-1.SCF.primenet.com(206.132.48.12), claiming to be "max" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMzaqWb; Tue Dec 19 13:03:32 2000 Reply-To: From: "Steve Shoecraft" To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:08:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c069f7$767b3b00$0c3084ce@max.home.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-reply-to: <200012191838.KAA13083@implode.root.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There are a number of reasons why a manufacturer can not/will not release source code for a driver. A few that come to mind are: a) A device driver is a reflection of the hardware. Manufacturers in highly competitive markets could potentially be giving away trade secrets for their new wiz-bang technology by publishing the source code. b) Manufacturers license technology from other manufacturers for inclusion into their product. The license/NDA does not allow them to disseminate the information (either through source or documentation). I can completely understand their position. If *I* were doing business in a highly competitive marketplace, I would be VERY weary of publishing my proprietary information for my competitors to see. EXAMPLE: I have been trying to deal with ATI recently regarding my All-In-Wonder 128 and TV-Out. Although they have been *VERY* helpful in giving me example source and datasheets for the R128 chipset, they cannot give me the information on how to enable TV-Out. This is because the ImpactTV chipset on my AIW contains technology licensed from Macrovision, and for them (ATI) to release the information to me would breach their agreement with Macrovision and open them up to a nice fat lawsuit. I *MAY* have to try and get a license from Macrovision and then present my licensing info to ATI -- and even if I did, I would not be able to distribute the source for that component of the driver... (sigh) IMHO, we should more than happy if a manufacturer supplies us with drivers, even if they are in binary form. If they release the source code/datasheets for a device, fantastic. Personally, I'd rather have the driver for the latest piece of hardware than wait several years until they feel releasing the info wouldn't hurt them in the marketplace. - Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12:14:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:14:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from p.intothewind.cx (adsl-141-157-89-56.baltmd.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.157.89.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A491C37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.org (pooh [192.168.1.3]) by p.intothewind.cx (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBJKC7M90473; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:12:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from patrick@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <3A3FC191.8C6AD28E@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:14:09 -0500 From: Patrick Gardella X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:14:10PM -0800, Devin Butterfield scribbled: > | "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > | > The most important decision now would be: > | > Should we concentrate on the PPC port first? Or should we go at each > | > port simultaneously? > | > | Well, if there are enough people with PCC's that are interested in > | helping with the effort then perhaps pursuing the PPC port first would > | make more sense. I don't have a PPC so I couldn't help out there... > | > | If the decision is to pursue a StrongARM port then you can count me in. > > I'm definitely interested in both StrongARM and PPC. (and so are very > many people) My understanding is that FreeBSD *wants* a FreeBSD/ARM, > but lack the resources/man-power to do so. I'd prefer to see an > official decision on the above by someone (hint hint -core :)) though. It's mainly a matter of interest (interested, dedicated people) rather than an official decision. I would say "go for it", and if it comes about, then great. If not, oh, well. Patrick patrick@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12:17: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:16:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from p.intothewind.cx (adsl-141-157-89-56.baltmd.adsl.bellatlantic.net [141.157.89.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A86D37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from freebsd.org (pooh [192.168.1.3]) by p.intothewind.cx (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBJKF4M90480; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:15:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from patrick@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <3A3FC242.C403F7E4@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:17:06 -0500 From: Patrick Gardella X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pbecke@javagear.com, jmb@freebsd.org Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , Devin Butterfield , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3FB4AF.106716C6@javagear.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Paul Becke wrote: > > What does it take to start up a new mailing list for proting to the Arm? (Who do I > need to contact?) Jonathan Bressler is our postmaster (jmb@freebsd.org). I've added him to this message in hopes that he sees this. I haven't seen much of him lately... Course, it's always better to just start work on the project, and the web pages, mailing lists, etc will follow. Patrick patrick@freebsd.org P.S. If you don't hear anything back, let me know and I'll give him a call. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12:27:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:27:23 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8555637B69C for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA61360; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:31:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <200012192031.VAA61360@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: <000001c069f7$767b3b00$0c3084ce@max.home.org> from Steve Shoecraft at "Dec 19, 2000 01:08:31 pm" To: sshoecraft@1-link.net Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:31:39 +0100 (CET) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems Steve Shoecraft wrote: > > There are a number of reasons why a manufacturer can not/will not release > source code for a driver. A few that come to mind are: > > a) A device driver is a reflection of the hardware. Manufacturers in > highly competitive markets could potentially be giving away trade secrets > for their new wiz-bang technology by publishing the source code. > > b) Manufacturers license technology from other manufacturers for inclusion > into their product. The license/NDA does not allow them to disseminate the > information (either through source or documentation). c. the driver is so embarrasing they wont show it to the world This is more common than you would belive :) > EXAMPLE: I have been trying to deal with ATI recently regarding my > All-In-Wonder 128 and TV-Out. Although they have been *VERY* helpful in > giving me example source and datasheets for the R128 chipset, they cannot > give me the information on how to enable TV-Out. This is because the > ImpactTV chipset on my AIW contains technology licensed from Macrovision, > and for them (ATI) to release the information to me would breach their > agreement with Macrovision and open them up to a nice fat lawsuit. I *MAY* > have to try and get a license from Macrovision and then present my licensing > info to ATI -- and even if I did, I would not be able to distribute the > source for that component of the driver... (sigh) Well, go read the GATOS project source, they know how to switch the TVout stuff at least it works on my AIW :) -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 12:48: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 12:47:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DC637B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 12:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26596; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:39:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from 206-132-48-244.nas-1.SCF.primenet.com(206.132.48.244), claiming to be "max" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAnlaiWZ; Tue Dec 19 13:38:52 2000 Reply-To: From: "Steve Shoecraft" To: "'Soren Schmidt'" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:46:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c069fc$c0e3bf00$f43084ce@max.home.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200012192031.VAA61360@freebsd.dk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It seems Steve Shoecraft wrote: > > > > There are a number of reasons why a manufacturer can > not/will not release > > source code for a driver. A few that come to mind are: > > > > a) A device driver is a reflection of the > hardware. Manufacturers in > > highly competitive markets could potentially be giving away > trade secrets > > for their new wiz-bang technology by publishing the source code. > > > > b) Manufacturers license technology from other > manufacturers for inclusion > > into their product. The license/NDA does not allow them to > disseminate the > > information (either through source or documentation). > > c. the driver is so embarrasing they wont show it to the world > > This is more common than you would belive :) Heh. This is true of the ATI example source ... *whew* is it bad =P > > > EXAMPLE: I have been trying to deal with ATI recently > regarding my > > All-In-Wonder 128 and TV-Out. Although they have been > *VERY* helpful in > > giving me example source and datasheets for the R128 > chipset, they cannot > > give me the information on how to enable TV-Out. This is > because the > > ImpactTV chipset on my AIW contains technology licensed > from Macrovision, > > and for them (ATI) to release the information to me would > breach their > > agreement with Macrovision and open them up to a nice fat > lawsuit. I *MAY* > > have to try and get a license from Macrovision and then > present my licensing > > info to ATI -- and even if I did, I would not be able to > distribute the > > source for that component of the driver... (sigh) > > Well, go read the GATOS project source, they know how to switch the > TVout stuff at least it works on my AIW :) > Is your AIW based on the R128 or M64? GATOS has R128 TV-Out support disabled by default. Enabling it (commenting out the if (ati.r128) return 0;) doesn't seem to work on my card, and I didn't spend a whole lot of time playing with it. I grabbed the latest CVS source about a month ago. > > -Søren > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > - Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 13:36:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 13:36:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D1D37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBJLa9j59657; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:36:09 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012192136.eBJLa9j59657@earth.backplane.com> To: "Steve Shoecraft" Cc: "'Soren Schmidt'" , Subject: Re: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <000101c069fc$c0e3bf00$f43084ce@max.home.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. What annoys me the most is that companies actually believe they are protecting something when they don't make their device driver source or hardware documentation available. It has been well proven for years that the most withholding accomplishes for the vast majority of these device drivers is a slight delay--- perhaps a week or two, before competitors figure out what they've done. Pirates don't care... they want the binaries anyway, they aren't programmers. And the open-source community has always strictly adhered to copyright and license restrictions. So all these companies are doing is making life harder for themselves and for their products. Unnecessarily. The XFree folks have some godaweful stories about the crap they've had to wade through to get video manufacturers on-board. Some video manufacturers have figured it out, a lot haven't. It also annoys me that certain people who should know better still seem to believe that open-source programmers are somehow substandard verses their commercial counterparts. I have one thing to say to that: Most open source programmers *ARE* professional programmers in their day jobs. We aren't talking about 14 year old wannabees here. Sure, there are lots of kids playing around with open-source systems, but don't make the mistake of assuming that these are the ones doing most of the serious kernel work. Most of the important work gets done by serious people. The quality of the open-source work tends to be much, much, MUCH higher then the quality of the programming produced by commercial companies, mainly because open-source work is opened up to peer review and programmers are doing it for fun, without the pressures of due dates or idiot managers. Every piece of proprietary commercial code I've ever seen has mostly been crap, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon. The paranoia of many commercial companies is misplaced. There are many classes of systems that obviously shouldn't be open-sourced, such as commercial hosted systems (e.g. most website backends), and many major programs are chock full of third-party-licensed technology that can't be redistributed (e.g. Netscape 4.x and earlier). But there are just as many that obviously should and device drivers belong for the most part in the latter category. I am not aiming this specifically at Dennis... each company needs to make its own decision. But I will say that the reasons Dennis states for the decision are mostly due to incorrect assumptions and paranoia and have nothing to do with reality. It's unfortunate, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. High technology requires young minds and old managers are having a harder and harder time dictating old paranoia to those people. If companies want quality programmers they are having to become more flexible and less paranoid. It is a slow process, but it is obviously working. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 13:39:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 13:39:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [207.154.226.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC1937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 13:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1098) id AAFFD2B22F; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:31 -0600 From: Bill Fumerola To: Dennis Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Message-ID: <20001219153931.K72273@elvis.mu.org> Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <43070.977244298@critter> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com>; from dennis@etinc.com on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-FEARSOME-20001103 i386 Sender: billf@elvis.mu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ move this to -chat from -hackers ] On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:25:43PM -0500, Dennis wrote: > did you even read my comments, you blubbering moron? lol. I said NOTHING > about theft. Zero. I guess you dont read english very well. FYI - I bought LanMedia's cards instead of ETinc's because I find you (for posts like the above as well as horror stories from customers) to be a Grade-A douche bag. I also found that the (open source) driver for the card was written by the aforementioned "blubbering moron" who I find to be a source of help when I have problems, unlike the dissatisfied customers of yours who fill the mail archives. -- Bill Fumerola - fumerola@yahoo-inc.com / billf@FreeBSD.org PS. Poul-Henning is more proficient in English then 95% of the native speakers I run into on a daily basis. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 14: 5:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 14:05:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from guardian.sftw.com (guardian.sftw.com [209.157.37.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9210937B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from yoda.sftw.com (yoda.sftw.com [209.157.37.211]) by guardian.sftw.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBJM58q29709; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nsayer@sftw.com) Received: from sftw.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by yoda.sftw.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJM56l26377; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nsayer@sftw.com) Sender: nsayer@sftw.com Message-ID: <3A3FDB92.1D3CB177@sftw.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:05:06 -0800 From: Nick Sayer Reply-To: nsayer@kfu.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Dillon Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Open Hardware Initiative (was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: <000101c069fc$c0e3bf00$f43084ce@max.home.org> <200012192136.eBJLa9j59657@earth.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon wrote: > > Yes, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. What annoys me the most is > that companies actually believe they are protecting something when > they don't make their device driver source or hardware documentation > available. It has been well proven for years that the most withholding > accomplishes for the vast majority of these device drivers is a slight > delay--- perhaps a week or two, before competitors figure out what > they've done. Pirates don't care... they want the binaries anyway, > they aren't programmers. And the open-source community has always > strictly adhered to copyright and license restrictions. So all these > companies are doing is making life harder for themselves and for > their products. Unnecessarily. The XFree folks have some godaweful > stories about the crap they've had to wade through to get video > manufacturers on-board. Some video manufacturers have figured it out, > a lot haven't. > [...] I think the time is right to reward companies that "get it". I propose that the way to do this is to create an "open hardware" trademark that can be used for marketing by companies that sell hardware for which they either provide sufficient documentation that a fully featured device driver can be written without reverse engineering, or for which they provide at least one open-source driver. The idea is to do for friendly hardware vendors what the "OSI certified" mark (www.opensource.org) does for open-source software. I wrote ESR about this, since it's something that would have fit in well with OSI's mission, but he declined to take it up, as OSI was fully committed. He did mention, however, that an OSI board member had tried this in the past, but suggested that perhaps now the time is right. I invite discussion on what the OHI (Open Hardware Initiative) requirements should be and how best to proceed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 14:20:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 14:20:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Mail.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.1.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805D537B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by Mail.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (Smail3.2.0.98) id ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:20:26 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:20:26 +0100 From: "Sven C. Koehler" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Source code of the dynamic loader Message-ID: <20001219232026.A10708@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Reply-To: schween@snafu.de Mail-Followup-To: "Sven C. Koehler" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: sck@ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! I am interested in the internals of FreeBSD's dynamic loader; where in the src module should I look for the appropriate source code? Best Regards, Sven C. Koehler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 14:41:46 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 14:41:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from amjers03.am.kwe.com (unknown [202.19.125.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D92BA37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: FROM GLOBAL73CSFBAI BY amjers03.am.kwe.com ; Tue Dec 19 17:40:46 2000 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Faisal Ali" To: Subject: Workaround for boot problems Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:45:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c06a0d$60499cd0$c715020a@GLOBAL73CSFBAI> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I have a Mylex DAC960PL card on which FreeBSD 4.2 Release did not boot. I checked the "Trouble.txt" file for suggestion to fix the problem. The advise did not help. But I was able to fix the problem by booting the system with DOS boot disk; executing the DOS utility as "fdisk /mbr". This created Master boot record on the Mylex hosted logical drive. Then I installed the system and intructed the installation process to allocate partition WITHOUT DEDICATING ENTIRE DRIVE and instructed NOT TO TOUCH THE BOOT RECORD. The system installed and booted properly. I have seen the same problem on other systems with different SCSI host adapters. This workaround always worked. I don't know why but I assume the incorrect drive geometry is detected by the FDISK editor. Faisal Ali Network Engineer. Global Services Twenty One Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 14:50:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 14:50:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.foobarbaz.net (Mail.FooBarBaz.NET [199.239.183.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B44F37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:50:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26369 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Dec 2000 22:50:21 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 19 Dec 2000 22:50:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:50:21 -0800 (PST) From: Christopher Nielsen X-Sender: enkhyl@cassandra.foobarbaz.net Reply-To: cnielsen@pobox.com To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 17 Dec 2000, Nat Lanza wrote: > Nothing documented the current kernel, Not to be obtuse, but the source always documents the current kernel for any OS... -- Christopher Nielsen cnielsen@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:18:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:18:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF2B37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA10857; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:09:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from 208-48-173-3.nas-2.scf.primenet.com(208.48.173.3), claiming to be "max" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAgSaGav; Tue Dec 19 16:09:35 2000 Reply-To: From: "Steve Shoecraft" To: "'Matt Dillon'" Cc: "'Soren Schmidt'" , Subject: RE: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:17:05 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c06a11$ce0caf60$03ad30d0@max.home.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <200012192136.eBJLa9j59657@earth.backplane.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What you are saying certainly has credence. I worked for a Semiconducter manufacturer here in Arizona (Microchip) as a software engineer for a number of years. We *ALWAYS* published full information about our devices (datasheets, etc), and it never hurt us -- because we always kept moving forward into new technology. Rival companies often cut the top of chips off and "map" the chip to see what others are doing. Even if they try to implement a similar technology, it still takes months of design work, characterization, production masking, etc. By that time, we were nearly in production with our next-gen chipsets. The only time I can remember not publishing information was for our Keylog products, which required an NDA. It has been my expirience, though, that chipset manufacturers generally *DO* publish information about devices. A quick call and a bit of social engineering can usually get you the datasheets, or a development kit, if the information isn't on the web. It's when these devices are applied that things become "grey." Sometimes, the hardware combined with the software make up the "technology advance." Such was the case with our (Microchip's) Keylog products. It's been a number of years since I worked for them, so, I don't know if they have "opened" it up yet or not. Perhaps I'll have to re-think my position in the matter concerning releasing information if I was in a competitive market. If I've spent millions of dollars researching a given technology, I'd be hard-pressed to immediately turn around and publish that information when I produced the product. Perhaps that's why so many companies are putting patents on damn near everything these days. I'm not saying that NO drivers should be open-sourced. Personally, I'd like to see them all (I too feel that open-sourced software is often better than the manufacturers). However, for those companies wishing NOT to (for whatever reason), a binary driver will do. The open source zealots view that "everything" should be open is simply too severe. - Steve P.S. Funny that you should mention xfree and video drivers -- personally, I feel that video drivers should be in the O/S domain and not in the xfree domain... > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Matt Dillon > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:36 PM > To: Steve Shoecraft > Cc: 'Soren Schmidt'; freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT > > > Yes, it's a pretty sad state of affairs. What annoys me > the most is > that companies actually believe they are protecting something when > they don't make their device driver source or hardware > documentation > available. It has been well proven for years that the > most withholding > accomplishes for the vast majority of these device > drivers is a slight > delay--- perhaps a week or two, before competitors figure out what > they've done. Pirates don't care... they want the > binaries anyway, > they aren't programmers. And the open-source community has always > strictly adhered to copyright and license restrictions. > So all these > companies are doing is making life harder for themselves and for > their products. Unnecessarily. The XFree folks have > some godaweful > stories about the crap they've had to wade through to get video > manufacturers on-board. Some video manufacturers have > figured it out, > a lot haven't. > > It also annoys me that certain people who should know > better still seem > to believe that open-source programmers are somehow > substandard verses > their commercial counterparts. > > I have one thing to say to that: Most open source > programmers *ARE* > professional programmers in their day jobs. We aren't > talking about > 14 year old wannabees here. Sure, there are lots of kids > playing around > with open-source systems, but don't make the mistake of > assuming that > these are the ones doing most of the serious kernel work. > Most of the > important work gets done by serious people. > > The quality of the open-source work tends to be much, > much, MUCH higher > then the quality of the programming produced by > commercial companies, > mainly because open-source work is opened up to peer review and > programmers are doing it for fun, without the pressures > of due dates > or idiot managers. Every piece of proprietary commercial > code I've > ever seen has mostly been crap, and I don't expect that > to change anytime > soon. > > The paranoia of many commercial companies is misplaced. > There are many > classes of systems that obviously shouldn't be > open-sourced, such as > commercial hosted systems (e.g. most website backends), > and many major > programs are chock full of third-party-licensed > technology that can't > be redistributed (e.g. Netscape 4.x and earlier). But > there are just > as many that obviously should and device drivers belong for the > most part in the latter category. I am not aiming this > specifically > at Dennis... each company needs to make its own decision. > But I will > say that the reasons Dennis states for the decision are > mostly due to > incorrect assumptions and paranoia and have nothing to do > with reality. > > It's unfortunate, but there is light at the end of the > tunnel. High > technology requires young minds and old managers are > having a harder > and harder time dictating old paranoia to those people. > If companies > want quality programmers they are having to become more flexible > and less paranoid. It is a slow process, but it is > obviously working. > > -Matt > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:28: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:28:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC46737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:28:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJNcNQ14026; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012192338.eBJNcNQ14026@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: nsayer@kfu.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Hardware Initiative (was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:05:06 PST." <3A3FDB92.1D3CB177@sftw.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:38:23 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think the time is right to reward companies that "get it". I propose > that the way to do this is to create an "open hardware" trademark that > can be used for marketing by companies that sell hardware for which they > either provide sufficient documentation that a fully featured device > driver can be written without reverse engineering, or for which they > provide at least one open-source driver. The idea is to do for friendly > hardware vendors what the "OSI certified" mark (www.opensource.org) does > for open-source software. You need to start by looking at www.open-hardware.org. Don't be put off by the Linux-centric look; most of the relevant people involved are pretty system-neutral. If you want a specific contact, start with Henry Hall . -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:32:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:32:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CD337B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBJNhBQ14066; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012192343.eBJNhBQ14066@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: faisal.ali@gsxxi.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Workaround for boot problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 17:45:23 EST." <000001c06a0d$60499cd0$c715020a@GLOBAL73CSFBAI> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:43:11 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have a Mylex DAC960PL card on which FreeBSD 4.2 Release did not boot. I > checked the "Trouble.txt" file for suggestion to fix the problem. The advise > did not help. Which advice in particular? I assume that you already had the adapter set to 2GB mode? You should also have verified that the drive geometry detected by sysinstall was correct (???/128/32); I suspect in your case that this was the problem. > I don't know why but I assume the incorrect drive geometry is detected by > the FDISK editor. That's correct; if there's garbage on the disk, or just bad geometry information, sysinstall gets it wrong. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:38:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:38:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (unknown [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1AD337B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:38:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arr@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id eBJNa1j01416; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from arr@watson.org) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Andrew R. Reiter" To: "Sven C. Koehler" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source code of the dynamic loader In-Reply-To: <20001219232026.A10708@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG sys/kern/kern_linker.c n Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Sven C. Koehler wrote: > Hello! > > I am interested in the internals of FreeBSD's dynamic loader; > where in the src module should I look for the appropriate source code? > > Best Regards, > > Sven C. Koehler > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > *-------------................................................. | Andrew R. Reiter | arr@fledge.watson.org | "It requires a very unusual mind | to undertake the analysis of the obvious" -- A.N. Whitehead To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:39:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:39:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from link.mirror.org (link.mirror.org [216.38.7.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2C037B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal (13-d11-1.svg1.netcom.no [212.45.183.14]) by link.mirror.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20568; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:08:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:13 +0100 (CET) From: Torbjorn Kristoffersen X-Sender: To: Christopher Nielsen Cc: Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Christopher Nielsen wrote: > On 17 Dec 2000, Nat Lanza wrote: > > > Nothing documented the current kernel, > > Not to be obtuse, but the source always documents the > current kernel for any OS... > Yes, so it must be a real pain to write drivers for a closed-source OS like WinNT. I bet it costs thousands just to be a _certified developer_ or something.. (Oops, off-topic, the computer made me do it) -- Torbjorn Kristoffersen sgt@netcom.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:48:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:48:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954EE37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10166; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBJNmUC79092; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:48:29 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001219154829.A79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:12:35PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:12:35PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > I would be quite interested. But do we have the resouces and the man-hours > to handle IA-64/KA-64/PPC/Alpha/StrongARM at the same time? Agreed. > Perhaps the first step would be to start a freebsd-arm@freebsd.org > mailing list? Then why start Yet Another(tm) mailing list for it as everyone has agreed it isn't time for that yet. > However, imho we should finish the FreeBSD/PPC project first. > The StrongARM is quite similiar to the PPC processors. If we > get the loader and init working, the rest will be a breeze. The loader would be very different from PowerPC for any StrongARM development platform I'm aware of -- DNARD and CATS. Uh... you certainly seem to have forgotten about locore.s and pmap modules. They are not "a breeze". > We could simply build a cross-gcc on ARM/Linux and the rest is > making sure that everything compiles. How about concentrating effort on just _one_ new platform (ok, two -- ia64 and powerpc)??? > The good thing is that we do not need SMP on FreeBSD/ARM/StrongARM. > (PowerPC still needs SMP support though.) Yes and no. Depend ons what you're doing with the powerpc -- remember the most interest for FreeBSD/PowerPC to date has been embedded products and comm processors. They don't tend to be SMP boards. I really don't see running on Mac G3/4 as the driving reason -- that machine is just the reference and development platform. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:50:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:50:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AD537B404 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10188; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBJNoou79117; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:50:50 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Devin Butterfield Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001219155049.B79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net>; from dbutter@wireless.net on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:14:10PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 04:14:10PM -0800, Devin Butterfield wrote: > Well, if there are enough people with PCC's that are interested in > helping with the effort then perhaps pursuing the PPC port first would > make more sense. I don't have a PPC so I couldn't help out there... There is a PowerPC simulator as part of GDB 5.0. People seem to discredit simulators.... don't forget both the Alpha and IA-64 ports were done using simulators. At this point the only person I know of that *has* to have hardware are those working on the loader and/or device drivers (which we aren't to that point yet). -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:52:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:52:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C5E37B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10194; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBJNqYB79146; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:52:33 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001219155233.C79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <3A3EA852.A668B554@wireless.net> <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:56:58PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 12:56:58PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > many people) My understanding is that FreeBSD *wants* a FreeBSD/ARM, > but lack the resources/man-power to do so. I'd prefer to see an > official decision on the above by someone (hint hint -core :)) though. Why are you looking to Core for this??? FreeBSD is the conglomerate of the community. If a set of developers come forward and work on a StrongARM port and it proves to be of good quality, it would become part of the CVS repo. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 15:55:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 15:55:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253F637B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10205; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBJNtYA79162; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:55:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 15:55:33 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Bakul Shah Cc: Marc Tardif , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: syscall assembly Message-ID: <20001219155533.D79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <200012162013.PAA14008@marlborough.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012162013.PAA14008@marlborough.cnchost.com>; from bakul@bitblocks.com on Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 12:13:32PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 12:13:32PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote: > May be people who know more about gcc will explain this > better but I will speculate in any case! Assuming that 16 ... > But I still question this optimization. Are there any stats > on whether this 16 byte aligning improves performance? it > certainly increases space use! Why isn't this discussion going on at gcc@gcc.gnu.org?? That is certainly where the people in the know on these issues are. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16: 2: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:01:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3F637B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA10235; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK01q181750; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:01:52 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001217151735.D54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com>; from n@nectar.com on Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > if (data) vs. free(data) > free(data); Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:34: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:34:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914C637B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 829D46AB68; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:03:48 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:03:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) Message-ID: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 19 December 2000 at 16:01:52 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: >> /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ >> if (data) vs. free(data) >> free(data); > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a conditional local branch? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:34: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:34:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914C637B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 829D46AB68; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:03:48 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:03:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) Message-ID: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 19 December 2000 at 16:01:52 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: >> /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ >> if (data) vs. free(data) >> free(data); > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a conditional local branch? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:36: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:36:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00FC37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:36:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA27533 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA04774 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200036.SAA04774@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:03:48 +1030." <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:36:06 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: >In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a >conditional local branch? Doesn't PPC have some cases where a leaf function is basically free? -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:37: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:37:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C9F37B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13146; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:36:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:36:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-Reply-To: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > conditional local branch? Ummmm.....AMD2901? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:37:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:37:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from feral.com (feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C9F37B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zeppo.feral.com (IDENT:mjacob@zeppo [192.67.166.71]) by feral.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13146; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:36:23 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:36:15 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jacques A. Vidrine" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-Reply-To: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > conditional local branch? Ummmm.....AMD2901? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:51: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:51:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E68437B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK0okv70621; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-Reply-To: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 20, 2000 11: 3:48 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tuesday, 19 December 2000 at 16:01:52 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > >> /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > >> if (data) vs. free(data) > >> free(data); > > > > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". > > In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > conditional local branch? as all optimizations it's compiler dependent, and one case would be when the function call is removed by the compiler (inlined or the like) :) cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 16:51: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 16:51:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E68437B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK0okv70621; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-Reply-To: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Dec 20, 2000 11: 3:48 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 16:50:46 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tuesday, 19 December 2000 at 16:01:52 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > >> /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > >> if (data) vs. free(data) > >> free(data); > > > > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". > > In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > conditional local branch? as all optimizations it's compiler dependent, and one case would be when the function call is removed by the compiler (inlined or the like) :) cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18: 6:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:06:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6706E37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:06:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-203.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.203]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA27144; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:00:00 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:00:00 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote: > > I didnt "praise" closed source. I said there is arguable reasoning behind > preferring supported binary drivers that work over incomplete source > drivers. Selecting an OS based solely on this criteria is just plain > stupid. Drivers generally do not require changes unless they are buggy. And And buggy they usually are. In some cases it's just unbelievable what kinds of morons write these drivers (if you want an example, look for the company named "Longshine"). > We have a saying in the US. "communism failed because its very essence > breeds mediocrity". Your inabiltity to understand a business model that > includes protecting corporate-funded assets, when MOST of the world's > corporations adhere exclusively to such a model, shows how little you know > about business in general. The drivers are _not_ assets. When I buy a piece of hardware I very reasonably expect that it would come with drivers or at least the manual on how to write these. It's a part of the deal. There are absolutely no reasons for the card manufacturers to withhold this information, their hardware is their copyright protection device and source of profit. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:21:46 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:21:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.getrelevant.com (mail.getrelevant.com [63.211.149.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579F937B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:21:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from khmere.com ([63.211.149.44]) by mail.getrelevant.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.5) with ESMTP id 2000121918185077:17647 ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:18:50 -0800 Sender: nathan@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A40179A.4708D29@khmere.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:21:14 -0800 From: Nathan Boeger Organization: Getrelevant X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG" , "freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: eepro100 dual port cards with failover ? X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on notes/GetRelevant(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/19/2000 06:18:50 PM, Serialize by Router on notes/GetRelevant(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 12/19/2000 06:18:56 PM, Serialize complete at 12/19/2000 06:18:56 PM Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We need to use the dual Intel PRO/100+ dual port server adapter, and I wanted to know if FreeBSD supports them ? I guess that the card is a dual port (2 x RJ45) card and it uses only 1 IP for both ports and if one switch goes down it will automatically failure to the other port ? Is this at the driver level or at the hardware level ? (if anyone knows ) and if FreeBSD does not support them then can anyone recommend something similar ? thank you nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:24:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:24:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDDB37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBK2Nwt63810; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com> To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) References: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guys, on intel a simple conditional is going to be a whole lot expensive then a subroutine call no matter what, even if the conditional misses. Subroutine calls are very fast on a P6, but if they push anything on the stack at all beyond the return address they are not going to be as fast as a conditional. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:24:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:24:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDDB37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBK2Nwt63810; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com> To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) References: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guys, on intel a simple conditional is going to be a whole lot expensive then a subroutine call no matter what, even if the conditional misses. Subroutine calls are very fast on a P6, but if they push anything on the stack at all beyond the return address they are not going to be as fast as a conditional. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:25:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:25:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF91137B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBK2PjP63852; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012200225.eBK2PjP63852@earth.backplane.com> To: Matt Dillon Cc: Luigi Rizzo , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) References: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : Guys, on intel a simple conditional is going to be a whole lot : expensive then a subroutine call no matter what, even if the I'm really batting 0 today on grammer. I of course meant... "whole lot LESS expensive". :-) -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:25:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:25:46 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF91137B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBK2PjP63852; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:25:45 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012200225.eBK2PjP63852@earth.backplane.com> To: Matt Dillon Cc: Luigi Rizzo , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, n@nectar.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) References: <200012200050.eBK0okv70621@iguana.aciri.org> <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : Guys, on intel a simple conditional is going to be a whole lot : expensive then a subroutine call no matter what, even if the I'm really batting 0 today on grammer. I of course meant... "whole lot LESS expensive". :-) -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:26:44 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:26:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDBF37B698 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA28129 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:26:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07106 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:26:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200226.UAA07106@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:00:00 EST." <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:26:38 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: >Dennis wrote: >> I didnt "praise" closed source. I said there is arguable reasoning behind >> preferring supported binary drivers that work over incomplete source >> drivers. Selecting an OS based solely on this criteria is just plain >> stupid. Drivers generally do not require changes unless they are buggy. And >And buggy they usually are. I would be very surprised to find *ANY* driver with absolutely *no* bugs. >> We have a saying in the US. "communism failed because its very essence >> breeds mediocrity". Your inabiltity to understand a business model that >> includes protecting corporate-funded assets, when MOST of the world's >> corporations adhere exclusively to such a model, shows how little you know >> about business in general. >The drivers are _not_ assets. Drivers to a third party piece of hardware are arguably assets. If, for instance, I built a system very much like FreeBSD, but in which all of the network drivers got 15% better performance, the world would beat a path to my door. When it's your *own* hardware, of course, the hardware itself is where the money is, and making the drivers maximally convenient is the best strategy. (Of course, this can, in turn, reveal "trade secrets", but if the interface to your hardware is a trade secret, well, geeze.) >When I buy a piece of hardware I very >reasonably expect that it would come with drivers or at least >the manual on how to write these. It's a part of the deal. Yup. >There are absolutely no reasons for the card manufacturers to >withhold this information, their hardware is their copyright protection >device and source of profit. Yup. It's much easier for me to copy drivers than it is for me to copy hardware. Of course, I'm better with an editor than with a soldering iron, and I don't have an 18-micron chip fab in my basement; some of you may find that it's the other way around. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:30:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:30:31 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C9737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA28170 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:30:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07160 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:30:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200230.UAA07160@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:23:58 PST." <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:30:28 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012200223.eBK2Nwt63810@earth.backplane.com>, Matt Dillon writes: > Guys, on intel a simple conditional is going to be a whole lot [less] > expensive then a subroutine call no matter what, even if the > conditional misses. Sure, but it may be worth considering the effects on other platforms, present and future, possibly including future Intel. If it's not a big performance difference, write the most readable code. If it's a serious performance difference, then it's probably worth #ifdef'ing it based on profiled results under different compilers on different chips. :) -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:44:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:44:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046EC37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:44:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-203.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.203]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA27249; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:03:34 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A401375.9483F773@bellatlantic.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:03:33 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Dennis , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <001401c069e7$8ed5c4f0$aa240018@cx443070b> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > pull off. Not that I don't appreciate the work of the people who write BSD > drivers, the people who put time and effort into BSD drivers are some of my > favorite people in the world, but it's terribly obvious that if a card or > device is not documented, that the company is going to provide a better > binary driver than what a BSD programmer could put together (okay, broad > generalization, but I'll stand by it in most cases). The closed source A gross misconcept. If someone has full set of docs that does not mean that he actually does read and understand them completely. Worse yet, the authors of commercial drivers often have a very vague idea of how their drivers should interact with the OS. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:47:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:47:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dnai.com (dnai.com [207.181.194.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1930737B402 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from neptune.dnai.com (neptune.dnai.com [207.181.194.93]) by dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17114 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from cougar.chiplogic.com (cougar.chiplogic.com [216.15.52.34]) by neptune.dnai.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA34955 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ws4.chiplogic.com (quokka [216.15.52.58]) by cougar.chiplogic.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA06442 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiplogic.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ws4.chiplogic.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA13354 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:37 -0800 (PST) Sender: justin@chiplogic.com Message-ID: <3A401DC9.FE79B8AB@chiplogic.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:47:37 -0800 From: Justin Wojdacki X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sergey Babkin wrote: > > The drivers are _not_ assets. When I buy a piece of hardware I > very reasonably expect that it would come with drivers or at > least the manual on how to write these. It's a part of the deal. > There are absolutely no reasons for the card manufacturers to > withhold this information, their hardware is their copyright > protection device and source of profit. > > -SB > FWIW: The drivers are not really assets if the device's functionality is exclusively (or nearly so) in the hardware of the device (unless you're _really_ paranoid about someone copying your hardware interface). However, if the device requires software to take on part of the functionality (examples: WinModems, although I'm not sure whether it's the driver or the OS that's doing the work there. I also suspect some OpenGL cards may be like this), then the driver is more likely to be considered an asset. Therefore, asserting that the device manufacturer has no reason to withhold this information is unfortunately incorrect. I don't know how common this is, and I don't particularly recommend it most of the time, but it's a way to save money in low end systems and devices (as your hardware design costs can be cut down significantly), and so it's not beyond reason that some devices may work like this. -- --------------------- Justin Wojdacki justin@chiplogic.com Chiplogic Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:50:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:50:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCAF37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA28306 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:50:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07694 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:50:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200250.UAA07694@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:03:33 EST." <3A401375.9483F773@bellatlantic.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:50:12 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3A401375.9483F773@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: >Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: >> pull off. Not that I don't appreciate the work of the people who write BSD >> drivers, the people who put time and effort into BSD drivers are some of my >> favorite people in the world, but it's terribly obvious that if a card or >> device is not documented, that the company is going to provide a better >> binary driver than what a BSD programmer could put together (okay, broad >> generalization, but I'll stand by it in most cases). The closed source >A gross misconcept. If someone has full set of docs that does not mean >that he actually does read and understand them completely. Worse >yet, the authors of commercial drivers often have a very vague >idea of how their drivers should interact with the OS. I would just like to tell you all how lucky you are that you *can't* see the code for the "binary-only" drivers used in BSD/OS. It's not that they're necessarily horribly buggy, but these are people to whom "KNF" is probably just the name of some German company. I would rather have a driver written by a competent kernel hacker who is familiar with the system, and has limited information about the hardware, in most cases. Even *very* limited experience may do it; I'm not exactly a kernel guy, and the NetBSD-on-VirtualPC patches were a lot easier for me than they would have been for the Connectix people. (On the other hand, the fixes to VPC were probably easier for them.) -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:53:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:53:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220F037B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBK2qkf64232; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:52:46 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012200252.eBK2qkf64232@earth.backplane.com> To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <200012200226.UAA07106@guild.plethora.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I would be very surprised to find *ANY* driver with absolutely *no* bugs. /dev/null ? :-) -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:58:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:58:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E38A037B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from usa.net ([63.203.76.97]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5U00EAVIIFXX@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:49:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:55:04 +0000 From: Ras-Sol Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Sender: root@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net To: cnielsen@pobox.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3A401F88.85955BF9@usa.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE i386) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christopher Nielsen wrote: > > On 17 Dec 2000, Nat Lanza wrote: > > > Nothing documented the current kernel, > > Not to be obtuse, but the source always documents the > current kernel for any OS... Aww come on man- that was just obtuse. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 18:58:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 18:58:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412A637B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA28389 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:58:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07947 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:58:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200258.UAA07947@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 18:52:46 PST." <200012200252.eBK2qkf64232@earth.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:58:20 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012200252.eBK2qkf64232@earth.backplane.com>, Matt Dillon writes: >:I would be very surprised to find *ANY* driver with absolutely *no* bugs. > /dev/null ? It must have a bug, we got a support request once because of an error message. Something about a bit bucket... -s p.s.: ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:18:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:18:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu (HURLAME.PDL.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.189.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4747937B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from magus@localhost) by hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBK3Idb24745; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:18:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from magus) Sender: magus@hurlame.pdl.cs.cmu.edu To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers References: From: Nat Lanza Date: 19 Dec 2000 22:18:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: Christopher Nielsen's message of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:50:21 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Christopher Nielsen writes: > Not to be obtuse, but the source always documents the > current kernel for any OS... If you believe that the source is always adequate documentation for kernel programming, especially in the Linux world, I have a bridge to sell that you might be interested in. --nat -- nat lanza --------------------- research programmer, parallel data lab, cmu scs magus@cs.cmu.edu -------------------------------- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~magus/ there are no whole truths; all truths are half-truths -- alfred north whitehead To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:22: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:22:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F02B37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA28515 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA08571 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200322.VAA08571@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers In-reply-to: Your message of "19 Dec 2000 22:18:39 EST." Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:22:06 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Nat Lanza writes: >If you believe that the source is always adequate documentation for >kernel programming, especially in the Linux world, I have a bridge to >sell that you might be interested in. Is it open source? If so, I will be able to adapt it to my own purposes in a matter of minutes, right? That's what the guy on slashdot said about open source. :) Speaking of source not telling the naive user anything: I want VirtualPC to run FreeBSD. It runs NetBSD just fine, and Connectix is very, very, good about answering questions or fixing bugs... if you can isolate them. Would someone who understands boot blocks be interested in debugging, or helping me debug, why the FreeBSD boot loader isn't working on VPC? I'll happily contribute all the patches I have for making other devices work or, at least, work around their issues. ;) -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:26:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:26:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.foobarbaz.net (Mail.FooBarBaz.NET [199.239.183.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7ADA137B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26583 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Dec 2000 03:26:53 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 03:26:52 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:26:52 -0800 (PST) From: Enkhyl X-Sender: enkhyl@cassandra.foobarbaz.net Reply-To: enkhyl@pobox.com To: Nat Lanza Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 19 Dec 2000, Nat Lanza wrote: > Christopher Nielsen writes: > > > Not to be obtuse, but the source always documents the > > current kernel for any OS... > > If you believe that the source is always adequate documentation for > kernel programming, especially in the Linux world, I have a bridge to > sell that you might be interested in. Part of my point is that the kernel source for linux is NOT sufficient documentation. However, I have found that in many cases, the source for FreeBSD and some other OSs (plan9) are sufficient documentation for kernel programming, but usually only for an experienced kernel programmer. -- Christopher Nielsen cnielsen@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:32:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:32:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286F937B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 25B94193EB; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:32:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:32:48 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Peter Seebach Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) Message-ID: <20001219213247.A74830@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Peter Seebach , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200012200036.SAA04774@guild.plethora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012200036.SAA04774@guild.plethora.net>; from seebs@plethora.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:36:06PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:36:06PM -0600, Peter Seebach wrote: > In message <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: > >In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > >conditional local branch? > > Doesn't PPC have some cases where a leaf function is basically free? Maybe, but free() is not a leaf function. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:34:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:34:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2A637B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 406FE193EB; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:34:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:34:32 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001219213432.B74830@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > > if (data) vs. free(data) > > free(data); > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". There's more overhead than just the function call itself. For example, our free() will do some locking & check for recursion beforing calling another function that actually does the work. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:34:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:34:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2A637B402; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by gw.nectar.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 406FE193EB; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:34:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:34:32 -0600 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c) Message-ID: <20001219213432.B74830@spawn.nectar.com> Mail-Followup-To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001217153129.B63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com>; from obrien@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: nectar@nectar.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 04:01:52PM -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > > /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > > if (data) vs. free(data) > > free(data); > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". There's more overhead than just the function call itself. For example, our free() will do some locking & check for recursion beforing calling another function that actually does the work. -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:49:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:49:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.attica.net.nz (mail.attica.net.nz [202.180.64.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2FA937B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 32356 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 03:49:51 -0000 Received: from 202-180-75-33.iff0.attica.net.nz (HELO davep200.afterswish.com) (202.180.75.33) by mail.attica.net.nz with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 03:49:51 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001220163018.01ada020@pop3.i4free.co.nz> X-Sender: dmpreece@pop3.i4free.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:44:38 +1300 To: Justin Wojdacki From: David Preece Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3A401DC9.FE79B8AB@chiplogic.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 18:47 19/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >Sergey Babkin wrote: > > > > The drivers are _not_ assets. When I buy a piece of hardware I > > very reasonably expect that it would come with drivers or at > > least the manual on how to write these. It's a part of the deal. > >However, if the device requires software to take on part of the >functionality (examples: WinModems, although I'm not sure whether it's >the driver or the OS that's doing the work there. I also suspect some >OpenGL cards may be like this), then the driver is more likely to be >considered an asset. I was on the point of stepping in with a very similar opinion. While I'm deeply hacked off at Intel for not dropping the NDA on 82559 series 8, causing me to have to think twice about using them in a commercial product, or indeed about using Intel at all, I can see a situation where I do feel it is fair: A lot of the reason why 3dfx (rip), Nvidia et al. often feel they cannot release open source drivers is that a substantial proportion of what these products do takes place on the host processor. Large quantities of research go into the exact division of tasks between host processor and offload processor, hence a large amount of their competitive advantage is derived from the driver code. They cannot afford to release it. Furthermore, AGP represents a substantial bottleneck to them, the protocol by which they get information down it is also of great commercial significance. Asking for open source drivers in these cases is much like asking for open source firmware on the boards themselves, simply not going to happen. To conclude: Open source, preferred. Closed source, OK. No driver whatsoever, bad. Bad bad bad. Should this really still be on -hackers? >Justin Wojdacki David Preece Aside: 82559/8, how does this affect BSDi's pre-installed rackmount boxes? Presumably it's all going to go a little tits-up when they start getting series 8 parts? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 19:54:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 19:54:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6557537B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 19:54:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA28716 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:54:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA09328 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:54:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012200354.VAA09328@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:44:38 +1300." <5.0.0.25.1.20001220163018.01ada020@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:54:32 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Aside: 82559/8, how does this affect BSDi's pre-installed rackmount boxes? Dunno. >Presumably it's all going to go a little tits-up when they start getting >series 8 parts? I was about to ask you to explain why this would be a problem, but I suppose you can't. :) Anyway, I haven't heard anything, but this could be an issue for BSD/OS, too, since the exp(4) driver is shipped to source license customers... -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 20: 3:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 20:03:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.attica.net.nz (mail.attica.net.nz [202.180.64.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A2DA37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1117 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 04:03:22 -0000 Received: from 202-180-75-33.iff0.attica.net.nz (HELO davep200.afterswish.com) (202.180.75.33) by mail.attica.net.nz with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 04:03:22 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001220165347.01afc820@pop3.i4free.co.nz> X-Sender: dmpreece@pop3.i4free.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:59:03 +1300 To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) From: David Preece Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200012200354.VAA09328@guild.plethora.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 21:54 19/12/00 -0600, you wrote: > >Presumably it's all going to go a little tits-up when they start getting > >series 8 parts? > >I was about to ask you to explain why this would be a problem, but I suppose >you can't. :) I thought they were using intel 82559's and came with FreeBSD 4.x preinstalled... http://www.bsdi.com/products/pdfs/1200_series.qxd.pdf >Anyway, I haven't heard anything, but this could be an issue >for BSD/OS, too, since the exp(4) driver is shipped to source license >customers... exp? fxp! Oh, I suppose it might be exp in BSD/OS, I dunno. >-s David Preece To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 21:45:46 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 21:45:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Gloria.CAM.ORG (Gloria.CAM.ORG [205.151.116.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77FE37B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (intmktg@localhost) by Gloria.CAM.ORG (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05141 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:36 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:40:36 -0500 (EST) From: Marc Tardif To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: gcc builtin specs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG When running the command gcc -v on FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE, I get "Using builtin specs". On Linux, I get some path. How can I know which specs are used by the preprocessor, compiler, assembler and linker on FreeBSD then? PS. Should I have posted this question elsewhere? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 21:47:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 21:47:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73F537B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 21:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:CKBS6JaGnm8vPAYQkrILHjhyf2WSNIjs@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.0/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id eBK5lY007561 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:47:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:whYusxUcfI7aA4ahYxIQvLVJC0U09/ih@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id OAA01093; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:55:02 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200012200555.OAA01093@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Request for comments: ISA_PNP_SCAN() (long) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:55:01 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is to propose a new ISA bus method to sys/isa/isa_common.c. The new method is to enumerate PnP device instances matching the specified PnP IDs. (Well, may be this is a kludge after all.) device_t ISA_PNP_SCAN(device_t bus, struct isa_pnp_id *ids, int *n); It will return the (n + 1)th instance of the given PnP IDs on the specified ISA bus. You set -1 to n to obtain the first PnP instance matching the given PnP IDs and can enumerate all matching instances by calling ISA_PNP_SCAN() until it returns NULL. I think this is useful for the following situation. The ISA device drivers supporting PnP look like the following in -CURRENT. struct isa_pnp_id foo_ids[] = { { 0xNNNNNNN, "Foo bar" }, }; int foo_probe(device_t dev) { if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) == ENXIO) return ENXIO; ... } ISA_PNP_PROBE() returns 0 if the ISA device instance dev has the matching PNP ID, returns ENXIO if the ID doesn't match, and returns ENOENT if the device instance doesn't have a PNP ID (because it was created by the isahint driver, based on /boot/device.hints). This way, the driver can work correctly with both the "hint" (non-PnP) device instance and the PnP device instance. The trouble is that we always need to have hints for this driver in /boot/device.hints for those systems without a PnP BIOS. Then, the isahint driver will create a device instance. The pnpbios driver will create a PnP device instance separately if the PnP BIOS exists and reports the presence of a device. Problem 1: In -CURRENT the non-PnP device instance is probed first. If this is successful, it will become available to the system as the 'foo0' device. Probe on the PnP device instance will fail in this case because the resources for this device has already been claimed by the non-PnP device instance, and the user will see erroneous boot message "unknown: cannot assign resources". Problem 2: If the non-PnP device instance fails probe (because device hints are wrong), the PnP device instance will succeed (because its resource description is supposed to be correct). The PnP device instance will become available in the system as 'foo1', rather than 'foo0'. This is because the non-PnP device instance wasn't deleted after its probe failed. To avoid the second problem, we may prepare two separate drivers for non-PnP and PnP device instances as follows. /* the driver for non-PnP device instance */ driver_t foo_driver = { "foo", foo_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foo_probe(device_t dev) { /* proceed only if this is not a PnP device instance */ if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != ENOENT) return ENXIO; ... } /* the driver for PnP device instance */ driver_t foopnp_driver = { "foopnp", foopnp_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foopnp_probe(device_t dev) { /* proceed only if this is a PnP device instance */ if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != 0) return ENXIO; ... } This way, we will have 'foo0' when the PnP BIOS is not present or device hints for the non-PnP device instance are correct. Otherwise, we will have 'foopnp0'. But, we will still have the first problem: "unknown: can't assign resources." If we have ISA_PNP_SCAN() above, we can do something like below to solve this problem. /* the driver for non-PnP device instance */ driver_t foo_driver = { "foo", foo_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foo_probe(device_t dev) { device_t bus; device_t pnpdev; int unit; int i; /* proceed only if this is a non-PnP device instance */ if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != ENOENT) return ENXIO; bus = device_get_parent(dev); unit = device_get_unit(dev); /* fail if we have a PnP sibling */ i = unit - 1; pnpdev = ISA_PNP_SCAN(bus, foo_ids, &i); if (pnpdev && device_get_state(pnpdev) == DS_NOTPRESENT) return ENXIO; ... } /* the driver for PnP device instance */ driver_t foopnp_driver = { "foopnp", foopnp_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foopnp_probe(device_t dev) { /* proceed only if this is a PnP device instance */ if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != 0) return ENXIO; ... } The non-PnP device instance will fail, regardless of device hints, if a PnP device instance for this device exists on this ISA bus. Then we will always have 'foopnp0' if the PnP BIOS reports the pretense of this device. The non-PnP device instance will succeed, as 'foo0', only if the PnP BIOS doesn't exist and device hints are correct. This way, we are now clear of the two problems described above. We can collapse the device methods for the two drivers into one. driver_t foo_driver = { "foo", foo_common_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; driver_t foopnp_driver = { "foopnp", foo_common_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; /* common methods */ int foo_probe(device_t dev) { device_t bus; device_t pnpdev; int i; switch (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids)) { case ENXIO: default: return ENXIO; case ENOENT: bus = device_get_parent(dev); unit = device_get_unit(dev); i = unit - 1; pnpdev = ISA_PNP_SCAN(bus, foo_ids, &i); if (pnpdev && device_get_state(pnpdev) == DS_NOTPRESENT) return ENXIO; break; case 0: break; } .... } If we don't like the idea the device name change depending on the presence of the PnP BIOS, we may do the following. /* the driver for non-PnP device instance */ driver_t foo_driver = { "foo", foo_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foo_probe(device_t dev) { device_t bus; device_t pnpdev; int unit; int i; if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != ENOENT) return ENXIO; bus = device_get_parent(dev); unit = device_get_unit(dev); i = unit - 1; pnpdev = ISA_PNP_SCAN(bus, foo_ids, &i); if (pnpdev && device_get_state(pnpdev) == DS_NOTPRESENT) return ENXIO; ... } /* the driver for PnP device instance */ driver_t foopnp_driver = { "foopnp", foopnp_methods, sizeof(struct foo_softc), }; int foopnp_probe(device_t dev) { if (ISA_PNP_PROBE(dev, foo_ids) != 0) return ENXIO; /* do nothing else but succeed */ device_quiet(dev); return 0; } int foopnp_attach(device_t dev) { device_t bus; device_t hintdev; device_t newdev; u_int32_t flags; bus = device_get_parent(dev); unit = device_get_unit(dev); flags = 0; /* delete the existing non-PnP instance */ hintdev = device_find_child(bus, "foo", unit); if (hintdev) { flags = device_get_flags(hintdev); device_delete_child(bus, hintdev); } /* create a new non-PnP instance */ newdev = BUS_ADD_DEVICE(bus, 0, "foo", unit); /* _MOVE_ all resources from dev to newdev */ device_set_flags(newdev, flags); bus_get_resource(dev,...); bus_set_resource(newdev,...); /* probe the new non-PnP instance */ device_probe_and_attach(newdev); return 0; } In this case, the PnP device instance is nothing but a resource holder. The non-PnP driver will do all the actual probe and attach. The non-PnP device instance will be deleted during foopnp_attach() and a new, non-PnP device instance will be created, given resources recorded in the PnP device instance, and probed. Note that non-PnP's foo_probe() works correctly both in the first invocation (for the instance created by the isahint driver) and in the second invocation (for the instance created in foopnp_attach()). Comments? Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 22:25:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 22:25:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from db.wireless.net (adsl-gte-la-216-86-194-70.mminternet.com [216.86.194.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A04737B400 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:25:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from wireless.net (dbm.wireless.net [192.168.0.2]) by db.wireless.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA38583; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbutter@wireless.net) Sender: dbutter@db.wireless.net Message-ID: <3A4050F9.749A0819@wireless.net> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:26:01 -0800 From: Devin Butterfield X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: StrongARM support? References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <20001219154829.A79058@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 03:12:35PM -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote: > > I would be quite interested. But do we have the resouces and the man-hours > > to handle IA-64/KA-64/PPC/Alpha/StrongARM at the same time? > > Agreed. > > > Perhaps the first step would be to start a freebsd-arm@freebsd.org > > mailing list? > > Then why start Yet Another(tm) mailing list for it as everyone has agreed > it isn't time for that yet. I don't think that "everyone" had reached any such agreement. It would seem to me that there is sufficient interest in FreeBSD/StrongARM that such a project is certainly worth pursuing. A mailing list would definitely be helpful to coordinating the project, gaining additional support for the project, and it would also serve to keep all the chatter off of -hackers. > > > We could simply build a cross-gcc on ARM/Linux and the rest is > > making sure that everything compiles. > > How about concentrating effort on just _one_ new platform (ok, two -- > ia64 and powerpc)??? > Well I certainly would agree that we should concentrate effort on just one or two new platforms. If there is more interest in a PPC or ia64 port than in a StrongARM port, then it would make more sense to concentrate on those. However, if there is more interest in StrongARM now, and hence people willing to working on it *now* and bring it to life, then pursuing a StrongARM port would make more sense. I for one am interested in helping put FreeBSD on a StrongARM. :) -- Regards, Devin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Dec 19 23:57:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Dec 19 23:57:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kiew.egd.igd.fhg.de (kiew.egd.igd.fhg.de [192.102.170.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92BE37B400; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 23:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from penguin.egd.igd.fhg.de ([192.102.170.145]) by kiew.egd.igd.fhg.de (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA53D1; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:57:00 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:59:11 +0100 (CET) From: "Thomas Runge" X-Sender: runge@penguin.egd.igd.fhg.de To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? In-Reply-To: <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > many people) My understanding is that FreeBSD *wants* a FreeBSD/ARM, > but lack the resources/man-power to do so. I'd prefer to see an There is a german saying "Schuster, bleib bei Deinen Leisten", which means something like "Only do, what you are good at". FreeBSD is good at the i386 side. Crossplatform is not really one of FreeBSD's strongest sides. Thats where NetBSD is *the* player. And there is a port to that Compaq ipaq thingy almost finished. And to RiscPC and DNARD (Shark) and CATS and Acorn A7000 and some intel developer boards, just to mention (Strong)ARM based systems supported by NetBSD. At the end a FreeBSD port will be based on the NetBSD port. Why should we split the BSD camp even more? But thats just my humble opinion. Btw. I run FreeBSD on my PC and NetBSD on my Shark. So, I do know and love both sides. -- Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 0:21:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:21:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from jason.argos.org (a13b063.neo.rr.com [204.210.197.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4CFD37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:21:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by jason.argos.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBK8Fej00643 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:15:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:15:40 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Nowlin To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently made the decision to upgrade all of our net-booted X terminals to full-blown workstations. (Basically, adding a hard drive and some memory.) Having 19 people running Netscape remotely on our Alpha is sucking up a gig of RAM and almost two gigs of swap, not to mention the "normal" things the Alpha has to do... After fighting off (quite violently, I might add) the top-level management who wanted to "just give everyone a Windows 98 machine - I never have any problems with mine at home...!", I came up with the following: -- Celeron 700-ish, 100Mb FXP, 20G, 64 or 128M, S3 or ATI Rage video -- NIS for uname/passwd auth - any user can use any machine -- /home mounted via NFS off a master file server for the users' files -- everything else (with whatever exceptions I find) on the local HD. -- (suggestions???) The users will basically need to be able to run X w/Gnome, StarOffice, Nutscrape, and (the huge, resource-hogging app) telnet. I'm planning on building a fairly big machine to do world builds on to keep these machines (30-ish) all synced to the same OS version, probably with weekly installworlds on them. Questions --------- Handling the OS updates is pretty easy... Is there any equally easy way to keep a particular set of ports updated automatically? I'd like to avoid having to do a "make deinstall; make install" all the time... For security reasons, is there a good package out there that can reliably determine when an X session has become idle for a period of time (no mouse/keyboard activity) and "nicely" log that session out? (Assuming programs that "nicely" handle KILLs...) Is there a program out there that can trigger my holodeck to create a solid-matter hand that can come out of the cooling vents and beat the hell out of any user who tries to hit the power switch? :) --mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 0:43:48 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:43:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F5FC37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:43:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBK8rxQ15667; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:53:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012200853.eBK8rxQ15667@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request for comments: ISA_PNP_SCAN() (long) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:55:01 +0900." <200012200555.OAA01093@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:53:59 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is to propose a new ISA bus method to sys/isa/isa_common.c. > The new method is to enumerate PnP device instances matching the > specified PnP IDs. (Well, may be this is a kludge after all.) > > device_t ISA_PNP_SCAN(device_t bus, struct isa_pnp_id *ids, int *n); > > It will return the (n + 1)th instance of the given PnP IDs on the > specified ISA bus. You set -1 to n to obtain the first PnP instance > matching the given PnP IDs and can enumerate all matching instances > by calling ISA_PNP_SCAN() until it returns NULL. This sort of active scanning for devices does not interact well with the way that our current bus architecture works. In particular, it makes it very difficult to implement the "bidding" process that allows us to have several drivers which might support the same device. > The trouble is that we always need to have hints for this driver in > /boot/device.hints for those systems without a PnP BIOS. Then, the > isahint driver will create a device instance. The pnpbios driver will > create a PnP device instance separately if the PnP BIOS exists and > reports the presence of a device. Yes. This is intentional. > Problem 1: > In -CURRENT the non-PnP device instance is probed first. If this is > successful, it will become available to the system as the 'foo0' > device. Probe on the PnP device instance will fail in this case > because the resources for this device has already been claimed by the > non-PnP device instance, and the user will see erroneous boot message > "unknown: cannot assign resources". This is a known, longstanding bug in the current ISA bus implementation, and it needs to be fixed. The correct ordering requires sorting the PnP devices into two classes; those which can be configured/disabled, and those which cannot. - Enumerate all PnP devices. - Disable PnP devices which can be disabled. - Probe/attach PnP devices which cannot be disabled. - Probe/attach ISA-hinted devices. - Probe/attach remaining PnP devices. This actually works better than expected because the PnP devices that most people are upset about conflicting with the hints are devices which can't be disabled (eg. onboard serial ports, etc.). With these probed first, the hints are typically going to be ignored. > Problem 2: > If the non-PnP device instance fails probe (because device hints are > wrong), the PnP device instance will succeed (because its resource > description is supposed to be correct). The PnP device instance will > become available in the system as 'foo1', rather than 'foo0'. This is > because the non-PnP device instance wasn't deleted after its probe > failed. This is also a bug, and fixing it would be desirable. If a probe based on hints fails, the hints are clearly invalid. > To avoid the second problem, we may prepare two separate drivers for > non-PnP and PnP device instances as follows. This is not (IMO) the correct solution. The bugs above should be fixed instead. Regards, Mike -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 0:45:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 00:45:37 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (nets5.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.144.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956F237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:45:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hyperion.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (hyperion.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.112.212]) by nets5.rz.rwth-aachen.de (8.10.1/8.10.1/5) with ESMTP id eBK8jZm23583 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from agamemnon.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (agamemnon.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.194.74]) by hyperion.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1/2) with ESMTP id JAA01640 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:10 +0100 (MET) Received: (from stolz@localhost) by agamemnon.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1-gb-2) id JAA27186 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:45:33 +0100 From: Volker Stolz To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: $CDB in /usr/src/usr.sbin/pw/Makefile Message-ID: <20001220094533.F26682@agamemnon.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> Mail-Followup-To: Volker Stolz , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Chair for CS II 1/2, Anomalous Programming Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does someone know what the variable CDB is doing in /usr/src/usr/sbin/pw/Makefile? I was using this variable for my own purposes and thus it caused minor havoc when building world: CFLAGS+= -W -Wall $(CDB) $(RND) I couldn´t find any other reference to the variable. Any suggestions? Otherwise I´d suggest a PR for removing the variable or at least setting it to "" in a top-level makefile. -- \usepackage[latin1]{inputenc}! Volker Stolz * stolz@i2.informatik.rwth-aachen.de * PGP + S/MIME To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 1: 0:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:00:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from Mail.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.1.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80B237B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by Mail.ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE (Smail3.2.0.98) id ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:02 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:00:02 +0100 From: "Sven C. Koehler" To: "Andrew R. Reiter" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source code of the dynamic loader (ELF) Message-ID: <20001220100002.A5739@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Reply-To: schween@snafu.de Mail-Followup-To: "Sven C. Koehler" , "Andrew R. Reiter" , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001219232026.A10708@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from arr@watson.org on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:36:00PM -0500 Sender: sck@ZEDAT.FU-Berlin.DE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Umm.... I should have asked better. I am looking for the ELF Dynamic Loader, which loads Shared Objects (the thing behind dlopen() et al.). kern_linker.c looks to me as the loader of kernel objects (.ko files). On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 06:36:00PM -0500, Andrew R. Reiter wrote: > > sys/kern/kern_linker.c > > n Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Sven C. Koehler wrote: > > > Hello! > > > > I am interested in the internals of FreeBSD's dynamic loader; > > where in the src module should I look for the appropriate source code? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 1: 8: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:08:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from newmail.netbistro.com (newmail.netbistro.com [204.239.167.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5A2237B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16651 invoked by uid 1020); 20 Dec 2000 09:08:06 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:08:06 -0800 (PST) From: Jon Simola X-Sender: jon@newmail.netbistro.com To: Mike Smith Cc: Nathaniel G H , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Text mode video operations In-Reply-To: <200012182142.eBILgCQ09290@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: jon@netbistro.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Mike Smith wrote: > > Speaking of video operations... does anybody know where I can find > > some decent VGA programming documentation? (Or, if possible, someone > > who knows a few obscure details.) A lot of old VGA card manuals had the basic programming instructions, using INT 10h calls. By old, I mean ISA cards with less than 1Meg of RAM. Also check out Raplh Brown's Interrupt list at: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/ralf/pub/WWW/files.html It's got just about everything you could ever want to know about what Int 10h functions exist, and how to use them. > > I specifically need to know, if possible, how to display hardware- > > rendered character- and software-rendered pixel-based images on the > > same display at the same time. > > Standard VGA does not offer this functionality; your current approach is > the only way to go. I've done this before (back when my 386-25 was new). Int 10h func 09h will draw characters from the VGA ROM in a simple graphics mode (ie 13h, 320x200 8bit colour unbanked). Past that, I just wrote my own font renderer. In 3 years of assembly-level VGA programming I learned quite a few "obscure details" :) If you're trying this on recent hardware, I'd pretty much echo what Mike Smith said. You either BITBLT characters into your framebuffer, or use a font renderer (ala freetype). --- Jon Simola | "In the near future - corporate networks Systems Administrator | reach out to the stars, electrons and light ABC Communications | flow throughout the universe." -- GITS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 1:19:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:19:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC2037B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 9987357487; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:19:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:19:54 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Thomas Runge Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001220031954.A19117@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Thomas Runge , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from runge@rostock.zgdv.de on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 08:59:11AM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 08:59:11AM +0100, Thomas Runge scribbled: | On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: | | > many people) My understanding is that FreeBSD *wants* a FreeBSD/ARM, | > but lack the resources/man-power to do so. I'd prefer to see an | | There is a german saying "Schuster, bleib bei Deinen Leisten", which | means something like "Only do, what you are good at". FreeBSD is good | at the i386 side. Crossplatform is not really one of FreeBSD's | strongest sides. | | Thats where NetBSD is *the* player. And there is a port to that | Compaq ipaq thingy almost finished. And to RiscPC and | DNARD (Shark) and CATS and Acorn A7000 and some intel developer | boards, just to mention (Strong)ARM based systems supported | by NetBSD. It was my understanding from BSDCon2000 that we are targeting more platforms. Let's not cling to traditions. Windows/MacOS has a more popular GUI than X-win, so we should not use X-win and just have console applications? And let's face it, x86 embedded systems sometimes do not do well for some applications. I refuse to believe that we should live in the safe nest of x86-32 only. There is also a Chinese saying "learning is like rowing a boat upstream; if you do not advance, you will go backwards." If we stay in the x86 market forever, then we are limited in growth by the architecture. (x86-32 is approaching the end of its life in a few years, right?) | At the end a FreeBSD port will be based on the NetBSD port. Why | should we split the BSD camp even more? Split what? There is no split as far as I can see. FreeBSD/ARM can help NetBSD/ARM, and vice versa. It might even help the BSD camps converge. It all depends on how you look at the glass of water. Is it half empty or is it half full? -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 1:57:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 01:57:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A7237B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:ojoI6U43cnMEP5oCZvM2z5CpZbywS7zM@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.0/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id eBK9vi010334; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:57:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:kKp/pJP3T+LYLwRiReAAgoW6ObM+uyiw@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id TAA04607; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:05:13 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200012201005.TAA04607@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Request for comments: ISA_PNP_SCAN() (long) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:53:59 PST." <200012200853.eBK8rxQ15667@mass.osd.bsdi.com> References: <200012200853.eBK8rxQ15667@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:05:12 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> This is to propose a new ISA bus method to sys/isa/isa_common.c. >> The new method is to enumerate PnP device instances matching the >> specified PnP IDs. (Well, may be this is a kludge after all.) >> >> device_t ISA_PNP_SCAN(device_t bus, struct isa_pnp_id *ids, int *n); >> >> It will return the (n + 1)th instance of the given PnP IDs on the >> specified ISA bus. You set -1 to n to obtain the first PnP instance >> matching the given PnP IDs and can enumerate all matching instances >> by calling ISA_PNP_SCAN() until it returns NULL. > >This sort of active scanning for devices does not interact well with the >way that our current bus architecture works. In particular, it makes it >very difficult to implement the "bidding" process that allows us to have >several drivers which might support the same device. Um, may be my wording was not appropriate. I didn't mean dynamic or active scanning of devices. Rather, I just wanted to have a routine to enlist PnP device instances hanging from the ISA bus, so that the hinted device will abondan its probe if there is a PnP sibling; no active scanning, probing, poking, or whatever, is involved and inteded. It should have been called ISA_PNP_PICK or ISA_PNP_FIND. >> The trouble is that we always need to have hints for this driver in >> /boot/device.hints for those systems without a PnP BIOS. Then, the >> isahint driver will create a device instance. The pnpbios driver will >> create a PnP device instance separately if the PnP BIOS exists and >> reports the presence of a device. > >Yes. This is intentional. I thought so :-) >> Problem 1: >> In -CURRENT the non-PnP device instance is probed first. If this is >> successful, it will become available to the system as the 'foo0' >> device. Probe on the PnP device instance will fail in this case >> because the resources for this device has already been claimed by the >> non-PnP device instance, and the user will see erroneous boot message >> "unknown: cannot assign resources". > >This is a known, longstanding bug in the current ISA bus implementation, I knew. >and it needs to be fixed. The correct ordering requires sorting the PnP >devices into two classes; those which can be configured/disabled, and >those which cannot. > > - Enumerate all PnP devices. > - Disable PnP devices which can be disabled. > - Probe/attach PnP devices which cannot be disabled. > - Probe/attach ISA-hinted devices. > - Probe/attach remaining PnP devices. > >This actually works better than expected because the PnP devices that >most people are upset about conflicting with the hints are devices which >can't be disabled (eg. onboard serial ports, etc.). How do we supposed to classify PnP devices into two groups? >With these probed >first, the hints are typically going to be ignored. So long as we have two device instances, a hinted instance and a PnP instance, for a single ISA device, the hinted instance will fail (rather than ingored), after the PnP instance succeeds (unless the hinted device instance is disabled or deleted). While the above scheme generally sounds good, we will still have a numbering problem, won't we? Hinted devices created by the isahint driver have the unit number 0 (because they are listed as such in /boot/device.hints), then the PnP instance for "foo" will have the unit number 1 when it attaches. The non-PnP (hinted) device instance for "foo" will fail (because resources are claimed by the PnP instance), and we will see "foo0: failed to probe" during boot if bootverbose is on. This is quite analogue to what I trid to fix by introducing ISA_PNP_SCAN/PICK/FIND(), which should be useful for the hinted/non-PnP instance to give way to its PnP counterpart. >> Problem 2: >> If the non-PnP device instance fails probe (because device hints are >> wrong), the PnP device instance will succeed (because its resource >> description is supposed to be correct). The PnP device instance will >> become available in the system as 'foo1', rather than 'foo0'. This is >> because the non-PnP device instance wasn't deleted after its probe >> failed. > >This is also a bug, and fixing it would be desirable. If a probe based >on hints fails, the hints are clearly invalid. > >> To avoid the second problem, we may prepare two separate drivers for >> non-PnP and PnP device instances as follows. > >This is not (IMO) the correct solution. The bugs above should be fixed >instead. Did you see my last code example in which non-PnP/hinted device instance will give way to the PnP instance? At least we are agreeing that there are two problems/bugs to be fixed :-) Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 2:13: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:13:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C8D037B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:13:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 20 Dec 2000 10:12:59 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:12:59 +0000 From: David Malone To: Mike Nowlin Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: <20001220101258.A38896@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mike@argos.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500 Sender: dwmalone@maths.tcd.ie Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500, Mike Nowlin wrote: > Handling the OS updates is pretty easy... Is there any equally easy way > to keep a particular set of ports updated automatically? I'd like to > avoid having to do a "make deinstall; make install" all the time... What we do is install and look after one machine, and then we use rdist to make all our other machines look identical. We've used this quite effectively for some years - for example on Monday we upgraded 13 machines from 4.1-STABLE to 4.2-STABLE in about 2.5 hours. (If you're interested in our rdist configuration, mail me and I'll send you our config files). David. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 2:13:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:13:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7BB37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12645; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:13:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKADUB42966; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:13:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:13:30 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Devin Butterfield Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Message-ID: <20001220021330.A42809@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <78656.976769151@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <3A3862E4.5A46E14C@wireless.net> <20001218151235.D69041@peorth.iteration.net> <20001219154829.A79058@dragon.nuxi.com> <3A4050F9.749A0819@wireless.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A4050F9.749A0819@wireless.net>; from dbutter@wireless.net on Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:26:01PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 10:26:01PM -0800, Devin Butterfield wrote: > I don't think that "everyone" had reached any such agreement. It would > seem to me that there is sufficient interest in FreeBSD/StrongARM that There is more than sufficient *interest* in FreeBSD/sparc, but that hasn't gotten anywhere. Please excuse me for being sceptical, but until someone shows up that has bothered to actually port the first FreeBSD kernel file to StrongARM, _then_ I'll take the effort seriously. > A mailing list would definitely be helpful to coordinating the project, What are we going to talk about? How all us DNARD owners can't program in C very well, but am willing to test anything the "developers" put out for us? -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 2:14:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:14:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B9D37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBKAONQ16277; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012201024.eBKAONQ16277@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Kazutaka YOKOTA Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request for comments: ISA_PNP_SCAN() (long) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:05:12 +0900." <200012201005.TAA04607@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:24:23 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >This sort of active scanning for devices does not interact well with the > >way that our current bus architecture works. In particular, it makes it > >very difficult to implement the "bidding" process that allows us to have > >several drivers which might support the same device. > > Um, may be my wording was not appropriate. I didn't mean dynamic or > active scanning of devices. Rather, I just wanted to have a routine > to enlist PnP device instances hanging from the ISA bus, so that the > hinted device will abondan its probe if there is a PnP > sibling; no active scanning, probing, poking, or whatever, is > involved and inteded. No, I understand what you're trying to do. It just doesn't work like that. You have no idea, for example, whether the PnP ID you find somewhere else would actually have been "won" by you or not. The right solution is to make the probe order correct, then none of the rest of this is an issue. > >This is a known, longstanding bug in the current ISA bus implementation, > > I knew. > > >and it needs to be fixed. The correct ordering requires sorting the PnP > >devices into two classes; those which can be configured/disabled, and > >those which cannot. > > > > - Enumerate all PnP devices. > > - Disable PnP devices which can be disabled. > > - Probe/attach PnP devices which cannot be disabled. > > - Probe/attach ISA-hinted devices. > > - Probe/attach remaining PnP devices. > > > >This actually works better than expected because the PnP devices that > >most people are upset about conflicting with the hints are devices which > >can't be disabled (eg. onboard serial ports, etc.). > > How do we supposed to classify PnP devices into two groups? The disable method should return failure when you try to disable the device. > >With these probed > >first, the hints are typically going to be ignored. > > So long as we have two device instances, a hinted instance and a PnP > instance, for a single ISA device, the hinted instance will fail > (rather than ingored), after the PnP instance succeeds (unless the > hinted device instance is disabled or deleted). The hinted instance should fail, yes. It should fail *quietly* during the probe phase when it discovers that it can't allocate the resources from the hint because they're already allocated. > While the above scheme generally sounds good, we will still have a > numbering problem, won't we? Hinted devices created by the isahint > driver have the unit number 0 (because they are listed as such in > /boot/device.hints), then the PnP instance for "foo" will have the > unit number 1 when it attaches. It shouldn't work like this, no. The hinted device should only get the unit number if its probe succeeds (but it may not work like this yet, I admit). There may be a need for arbitration for unit numbers at some point. > This is quite analogue to what I trid to fix by introducing > ISA_PNP_SCAN/PICK/FIND(), which should be useful for the > hinted/non-PnP instance to give way to its PnP counterpart. The fundamental problem here is that it's not possible to associate a driver with a device until after the entire probe process has completed, so the whole "find my PnP shadow" concept just can't work. > >This is not (IMO) the correct solution. The bugs above should be fixed > >instead. > > Did you see my last code example in which non-PnP/hinted device > instance will give way to the PnP instance? Yes. It still doesn't work. 8( > At least we are agreeing that there are two problems/bugs to be fixed > :-) I've been trying to get these fixed for years. I hate ISA. 8) -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 2:20:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 02:20:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A2837B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:20:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12803; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:20:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKAKfe43015; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:20:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:20:41 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Optimizations (was: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen getgrent.c)) Message-ID: <20001220022041.B42809@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: /dev/null@NUXI.com References: <20001217153656.F54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217155648.C63080@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001217160442.H54486@holly.calldei.com> <20001217170316.A63227@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012180501.WAA87838@harmony.village.org> <20001218123108.A65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <200012181840.LAA92561@harmony.village.org> <20001218131112.B65143@hamlet.nectar.com> <20001219160152.E79058@dragon.nuxi.com> <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220110348.P43017@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:03:48AM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 11:03:48AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 19 December 2000 at 16:01:52 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 01:11:12PM -0600, Jacques A. Vidrine wrote: > >> /* Case 1 */ /* Case 2 */ > >> if (data) vs. free(data) > >> free(data); > > > > > > Actually from an optimization standpoint, #1 can be worse (ie, harder on > > the processor). You've got a conditional jump there that is using branch > > prediction HW to track (which means there is some other conditional > > branch you're not, you're fetching both the taken and not take paths, > > etc... If the function call isn't expensive, #2 can be "faster". > > In which processors is a function call anywhere near as cheap as a > conditional local branch? It is a known branch, thus no branch prediction resources and pre-fetch of taken and not-take paths has to be done. I am not saying it is definately cheaper but I do raise the point to remind people that there is more to think about with today's processors than the simple CPU's most studied in college. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3: 0:24 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:00:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from crotchety.newsbastards.org (netcop.newsbastards.org [193.162.153.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EEB37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from news@localhost) by crotchety.newsbastards.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKAxnt24063; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:59:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from newsluser@free-pr0n.netscum.dk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:59:50 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <200012201059.eBKAxnt24063@crotchety.newsbastards.org> X-Authentication-Warning: crotchety.newsbastards.org: news set sender to newsluser@free-pr0n.netscum.dk using -f Reply-To: freebsd-lurkers@netscum.dk From: Reddy Crashalott To: Matt Dillon Cc: stable@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org References: <200012152247.eBFMlg727583@earth.backplane.com> In-Reply-To: <200012152247.eBFMlg727583@earth.backplane.com> Subject: Re: New performance patch available for testing on stable Sender: newsluser@free-pr0n.netscum.dk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [disclaimer: this is an invalid sender address; replies should be posted to the list or perhaps better not posted at all. the reply-to header address also will soon become invalid] [further disclaimer: I've crossposted this to -hackers as well, to continue the thread I was carrying on singlehandedly there, in the highly unlikely event that someone there who professed an interest is not already subscribed to -stable. I'm not expecting any response at all to this post, but perhaps if there is, it would be best dumped on -hackers rather than -stable. Sorry.] :: http://apollo.backplane.com/FreeBSD4/ :: This patch reworks the pageout daemon and the buf_daemon. It is based :: on my previous patch but hopefully has the kinks worked out. The patch :: is for -stable only, I will have a -current patch tonight. Thanks, I've been using it on -stable for several days now... :: The current patchset will pageout a little more then 4.2-RELEASE, but :: hopefully to the benefit of the system rather then the detriment. This I'm happy to report that -- if you recall, I had problems with getting one of the two history files to perform as I wanted -- I've figured out what I've been doing wrong, and it was pilot error, since I've had to make a good number of hacks to the recent INN k0deZ, but I had not taken the time to figure out what was intended by the virginal code, why my hacks were needed, and why things were done as they were. The short of it was that I discovered I was only doing madvise/mlock on part of the problem file, so part of it was the cause of the heavy disk activity. I'm going to take some time off to recover and hope to be able to think clearly and find out the reason for using (size_of) in one size calculation and not in another -- mmap() didn't and was fine. But that's neither here nor there. In any case, when I finally managed to accomplish what I had been trying to do all this time, it was immensely gratifying to see the history file read/write access times dropping to practically zero, thanks to mlock() in luserland. Witness the numbers here, where I start from a dead stop and chew on a waiting backlog: Dec 19 23:52:03 crotchety innd: dbz madvise NOSYNC 90000000 ok [time passes] Dec 19 23:52:16 crotchety innd: dbz mlock 90000000 ok Dec 19 23:52:16 crotchety innd: dbz openhashtable /news/db/history.hash Dec 19 23:52:16 crotchety innd: dbz madvise WILLNEED 135000000 ok Dec 19 23:52:16 crotchety innd: dbz madvise RANDOM 135000000 ok Dec 19 23:52:16 crotchety innd: dbz madvise NOSYNC 135000000 ok [more time passes] Dec 19 23:52:40 crotchety innd: dbz mlock 135000000 ok [five mintes pass until the first timer stats are logged] Dec 19 23:57:45 crotchety innd: ME time 300004 idle 28838(286832) artwrite 111263(6811) artlink 0(0) hiswrite 2556(7883) hissync 3(15) ^^^^ sitesend 2683(20443) artctrl 56(242) artcncl 39(235) hishave 398(19812) ^^^ hisgrep 2(94) artclean 32393(7910) perl 23339(7742) overv 0(0) python 0(0) ncread 52681(324760) ncproc 194980(324760) [backlog gets chewed...] Dec 20 00:52:45 crotchety innd: ME time 300000 idle 131122(246534) artwrite 62458(3701) artlink 0(0) hiswrite 1603(4091) hissync 0(8) sitesend 1369(11103) artctrl 9(109) artcncl 9(109) hishave 147(10711) hisgrep 1(80) artclean 18996(4062) perl 13120(4062) overv 0(0) python 0(0) ncread 33002(248568) ncproc 116670(248568) Now, before I got this one started, I had had a few failures in the mlock() call to the 135MB history file, and as you see from the numbers below, performance was *awful* -- even with your patches that are the subject of this thread. The reason the numbers I had been seeing earlier were not quite this bad was that I was only mlock()ing part of the file. Aside from the mlock(), all the madvise() and MAP_NOSYNC tweaks were completed with success, so, well, huge difference. And the other file did successfully mlock()... Dec 19 23:38:53 crotchety innd: ME time 306143 idle 6279(92487) artwrite 66436(4114) artlink 0(0) hiswrite 71770(4727) hissync 1(10) ^^^^^ sitesend 2082(12343) artctrl 840(116) artcncl 839(114) hishave 62930(10547) ^^^^^ hisgrep 1(50) artclean 20776(4664) perl 14707(4663) overv 0(0) python 0(0) ncread 31888(119022) ncproc 257889(119022) You had mentioned that you would perhaps want to see the debug numbers from this machine and these two hash files *without* the hacks to mlock() them. Well, I dunno if I can stand the thought of letting the machine run for too long like this, but do you really want this data? And would you want to see the debug activity when the mlock() has succeeded for the happy near-zero history times? I can't say for certain, but it seems that with the current patchset, the history numbers are far worse than they would have been in a similar situation with the previous patchset or at the beginning of this month. On the other hand, most of the apparent unresponsiveness I've noticed has been directly traceable to the on-disk updates of the history files when the mlock() failed, whereas that which is the result of paging activity appears to be far less, to the point where I don't really notice it. These on-disk updates, as you know, block all related accesses, which is just about everything I'm doing (reading and so on) Now, in order for this to work with the near-zero history access times (yeah, it'll be far more impressive when I install this on a transit machine with 450 incoming connections, I promise), I've needed to make some non-trivial changes to both INN and the FreeBSD kernel, so in my Copious Free Time, I hope to figure out exactly what I want to do and merge in the hacks in a non-intrusive and portable way so that anyone could see this performance. I'll hold off on the FreeBSD end of this, though, since you know what you're doing and I don't, particularly if it's possible that coming VM improvements will have the effect that I see here of mlock() in userland, with or without auxiliary helper programs. (urg, sounds like all followups are best directed to -hackers) thanks, happy holidays with good cheer and all that, barry bouwsma, ex-teledanmark news admangler k0dewanker To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3:24:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:24:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEA7037B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27367 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2000 11:24:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20001220112416.27366.qmail@nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.75 by nwcst330 for [213.226.6.17] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.4B.01) on Wed Dec 20 11:24:16 GMT 2000 Date: 20 Dec 00 04:24:16 MST From: John Smith To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Subject: New netgraph features? Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4B.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, Recently while I was playing with netgraph code I noted some interesting comments about 'tracing' netgraph packets and the ability to connect nodes located on different machines. I would like to ask if somebody is working on such a code and if it would be worth writing it. Any additional comments and ideas are also welcome. BR: John ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3:26:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:26:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kai.qix.co.uk (kai.qix.co.uk [195.149.39.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958CD37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (aledm@localhost) by kai.qix.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00480; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:25:36 GMT (envelope-from aledm@qix.co.uk) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:25:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Aled Morris To: Matt Dillon Cc: Jack Rusher , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. In-Reply-To: <200012181908.eBIJ8PP46165@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Matt Dillon wrote: > void * > safe_malloc(int bytes) > { > void *ptr; > > if ((ptr = malloc(bytes)) == NULL) > *(int *)0 = 1; /* force seg fault */ Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? I'm sure we went through a long and painful Y2K style code clearout eliminating the assumption that address zero could be referenced "*(int *0) == 0" and now you are relying on the opposite assumption. Was: Not every machine is a VAX! Now: Not every machine is not a VAX! Aled To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3:32:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:32:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A867B37B402; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:paSAq0yACMIsT9FzrddO+s1e58J/dZKw@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.0/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id eBKBWF009876; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:32:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:hVd04OIYX3jSPww3cWQlQjBF1xEOLvnR@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id UAA05261; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:39:43 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200012201139.UAA05261@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Request for comments: ISA_PNP_SCAN() (long) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:24:23 PST." <200012201024.eBKAONQ16277@mass.osd.bsdi.com> References: <200012201024.eBKAONQ16277@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:39:42 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Um, may be my wording was not appropriate. I didn't mean dynamic or >> active scanning of devices. Rather, I just wanted to have a routine >> to enlist PnP device instances hanging from the ISA bus, so that the >> hinted device will abondan its probe if there is a PnP >> sibling; no active scanning, probing, poking, or whatever, is >> involved and inteded. > >No, I understand what you're trying to do. It just doesn't work like >that. You have no idea, for example, whether the PnP ID you find >somewhere else would actually have been "won" by you or not. > >The right solution is to make the probe order correct, then none of the >rest of this is an issue. >> How do we supposed to classify PnP devices into two groups? > >The disable method should return failure when you try to disable the >device. I saw this "callback" hook code. PnP devices created by the "pnp" driver seem Ok. But PnP devices created by the PnP BIOS driver "pnpbios" have an empty callback. (Are they all not "disable"able?) In any case, these callbacks returns "void", and there currently isn't a way to report success or failure. I guess there are two of those reasons why the current version of sys/isa/isa_common.c:isa_probe_children() doesn't work like the desired scheme you described. Does the following look like what you would like to have in isa_probe_children()? (Yes, I ommitted great many details here.) /* try to disable PnP devices */ for (i = 0; i < nchildren; i++) { if (!TAILQ_FIRST(&idev->id_configs)) /* skip non-PnP */ continue; if (idev->id_config_cb) { idev->id_config_cb(idev->id_config_arg, &config, 0); if (_succeeded_) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ device_disable(children[i]); } } /* then probe PnP devices which were not disabled */ for (i = 0; i < nchildren; i++) { if (!TAILQ_FIRST(&idev->id_configs)) /* skip non-PnP */ continue; if (!device_is_enabled(children[i])) continue; isa_assgin_resources(children[i]); device_probe_and_attach(children[i]); } /* then probe non-PnP devices */ for (i = 0; i < nchildren; i++) { if (TAILQ_FIRST(&idev->id_configs)) /* skip PnP */ continue; device_probe_and_attach(children[i]); } /* re-enable disabled PnP devices and probe them */ for (i = 0; i < nchildren; i++) { if (!TAILQ_FIRST(&idev->id_configs)) /* skip non-PnP */ continue; if (!device_is_enabled(children[i])) { device_enable(child); /* isa_assgin_resources() will enable the PnP device */ isa_assgin_resources(children[i]); device_probe_and_attach(children[i]); } } >> While the above scheme generally sounds good, we will still have a >> numbering problem, won't we? Hinted devices created by the isahint >> driver have the unit number 0 (because they are listed as such in >> /boot/device.hints), then the PnP instance for "foo" will have the >> unit number 1 when it attaches. > >It shouldn't work like this, no. The hinted device should only get the >unit number if its probe succeeds (but it may not work like this yet, I >admit). No, it currently doesn't work that way. Hinted devices have whatever unit numbers listed in device.hints. >There may be a need for arbitration for unit numbers at some >point. There ought to be. Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3:42:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:42:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (unknown [194.128.198.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C1137B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBKAfvZ48623; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:41:57 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:41:57 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Mike Nowlin Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: <20001220104157.A48462@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mike@argos.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500, Mike Nowlin wrote: > I'm planning on building a fairly big machine to do world builds on to > keep these machines (30-ish) all synced to the same OS version, probably > with weekly installworlds on them. Have you had a look at PXE? Basically, each time the machine reboots you can have it reimage itself from a master server. See http://people.freebsd.org/~alfred/pxe/ for details. Your NIC has to support it, and I don't know how long the reimaging process takes over 100Mbit, but it's probably less maintenance effort for you in the long run. N -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 3:56: 7 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 03:56:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647EC37B6A4; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBKBu3Z17696; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:56:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:56:03 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Nik Clayton Cc: Mike Nowlin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: <20001220035603.P19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001220104157.A48462@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220104157.A48462@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:41:57AM +0000 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Nik Clayton [001220 03:43] wrote: > On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500, Mike Nowlin wrote: > > I'm planning on building a fairly big machine to do world builds on to > > keep these machines (30-ish) all synced to the same OS version, probably > > with weekly installworlds on them. > > Have you had a look at PXE? Basically, each time the machine reboots > you can have it reimage itself from a master server. See > > http://people.freebsd.org/~alfred/pxe/ > > for details. Your NIC has to support it, and I don't know how long the > reimaging process takes over 100Mbit, but it's probably less maintenance > effort for you in the long run. Takes 5-15 minutes per box. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 6:39:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 06:39:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB9237B402; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nairobi-27.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.50.219] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 148kP9-0000U6-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:39:43 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A40BA95.F64C95C3@elischer.org> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 05:56:37 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Smith Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New netgraph features? References: <20001220112416.27366.qmail@nwcst330.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Smith wrote: > > Hello, > > Recently while I was playing with netgraph code > I noted some interesting comments about 'tracing' > netgraph packets and the ability to connect nodes > located on different machines. I would like to ask > if somebody is working on such a code and if it > would be worth writing it. Any additional comments > and ideas are also welcome. If you are playing with it, you may want to let me know your thoughts.. I know many people are using it for this-and-that but we get very little feedback. I'm presently rewriting a large part of netgraph to make is suitable for running under SMP without the BGL.. (e.g fine grain locking) so I'm interested in wha people think in general, and specifically what the liked and didn't like. Lastly, if you have used netraph, make sure that you have a look at the man page for the -current version to see what ha s been changing. looking at the extra argumants on the prototypes in /sys/netgraph/netgraph.h will show you where to look for changes inthe source too. (in particular tha ability to route messages for flow control has been a large change). As to your specific questions, these were vague ideas of things that we though were proctical but didn't have time to do. nodes on differnt machines could be connected by using a udp ksocket node as a tunnel. Tracing is simply the ability to add a flag to a metadata object, and adding code to the data delivery function (ng_send_data()) to somehow emit trace information whnever the metadata it is moving has that flag set. The latter would be very easy to do. (but what logging mechanism would you use, and how would you set the bits?) > > BR: John > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-net" in the body of the message -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 6:42:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 06:42:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (assaris.sics.se [193.10.66.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C2337B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA87977; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 15:42:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from assar) Sender: assar@assaris.sics.se To: Aled Morris Cc: Matt Dillon , Jack Rusher , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. References: From: Assar Westerlund Date: 20 Dec 2000 15:42:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: Aled Morris's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:25:36 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Aled Morris writes: > On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Matt Dillon wrote: > > > void * > > safe_malloc(int bytes) > > { > > void *ptr; > > > > if ((ptr = malloc(bytes)) == NULL) > > *(int *)0 = 1; /* force seg fault */ > > > Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? Why not err(3) or abort(3) ? /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7: 5:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:05:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from acl.lanl.gov (acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7D637B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:05:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mini.acl.lanl.gov (root@mini.acl.lanl.gov [128.165.147.34]) by acl.lanl.gov (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA4776050; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:05:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (rminnich@localhost) by mini.acl.lanl.gov (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03709; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:05:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: mini.acl.lanl.gov: rminnich owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:05:17 -0700 (MST) From: Ronald G Minnich X-Sender: rminnich@mini.acl.lanl.gov To: Mike Nowlin Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just redid the autocacher in totally GPL'ed form. the paper on the original one is at http://www.acl.lanl.gov/~rminnich The new one is much simpler and works well. This could be useful, it gives you a caching file system for NFS. let me know if interested. ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7: 6:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:06:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.149.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1ADC037B69C for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:06:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23882 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2000 15:17:21 -0000 Received: from jhs.muc.de (193.149.49.84) by slarti.muc.de with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 15:17:21 -0000 Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBK0wCN02480; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 00:59:11 GMT (envelope-from jhs@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200012200059.eBK0wCN02480@jhs.muc.de> To: Dennis Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Message from Dennis of "Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:43:17 EST." <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 01:58:11 +0100 From: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote to Boris et all: > > >Device Drivers > >-------------- > >I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > > You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should not > require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) > support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he > can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF > hes a good enough coder to get it done. > "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a clue what `Mainstream' is a target some seek to avoid. Micro$oft exemplifies mainstream. > to do with source code. They want products that just work. Your > recommendation, if you make such a recommendation regarding "source over > binary", suits your own requirements and not that of your client or readers > and shows very poor judgement. `Best Judgement' depends on perspective, consider different perspectives: A) Hardware vendor who provides no driver sources, to avoid giving competition insight into hardware, &/or to lock in customers. B) Hardware vendor who provides sources, pleases hackers, & gets free positive publicity from those hackers. C) Leisure hacker: "I'm here to hack sources, binaries are boring" D) Leisure users: `make' of sources pleases them even if not programming. E) System installers, installing binary systems at dependent customers. F) Consultants willing to hack customer user's delivered source if paid. G) Dependent customers: "just want it to work, forever, at minimum cost" H) CDROM vendors, income raises with OS popularity. I) True `power users', ie programmers using sourced OS to maintain businesses. J) etc, ... other perspectives possible too. Your `judgement' is dependent on your perspective. I don't trust _any_ company not to cease support, by bankrupcy, being taken over, losing focus or key staff transfer/promotion etc. Customers receiving source code have the security that if a problem later arises, they can use money as an incentive to get some consultant to fix it, even if the original manufacturer/vendor has lost interest. If 2 competing FreeBSD drivers are ever available for one piece of hardware, one binary & professionaly supported, & one sourced & amateur support, I expect FreeBSD will provide hooks for both, & let users decide themselves, as is done with MATH_EMULATE & GPL_MATH_EMULATE. Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4000 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7:28:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:28:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B4637B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:28:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA04469 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:28:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15116 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:28:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012201528.JAA15116@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:25:36 GMT." Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:28:30 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Aled Morris writes: >Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? Gratuitously verbose! raise(SIGSEGV); (To be fair, raise(SIGSEGV) is quite likely to just jump to the segfault handler without actually setting any signal bits, but who can tell?[*]) -s [*] I don't have a FreeBSD complete source tree handy, this is a general comment about arbitrary future libc implementations. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7:40:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:40:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from amjers03.am.kwe.com (unknown [202.19.125.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A346237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: FROM GLOBAL73CSFBAI BY amjers03.am.kwe.com ; Wed Dec 20 10:39:41 2000 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Faisal Ali" To: "'Mike Smith'" Cc: Subject: RE: Workaround for boot problems Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:44:16 -0500 Message-ID: <002001c06a9b$b6a844d0$c715020a@GLOBAL73CSFBAI> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200012192343.eBJNhBQ14066@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The advice was to use 2GB geometry which I did. It is possible their was garbage on the disk although its highly unlikely when a new logical volume is created. Thanks for help Faisal Ali -----Original Message----- From: Mike Smith [mailto:msmith@freebsd.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 6:43 PM To: faisal.ali@gsxxi.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Workaround for boot problems > I have a Mylex DAC960PL card on which FreeBSD 4.2 Release did not boot. I > checked the "Trouble.txt" file for suggestion to fix the problem. The advise > did not help. Which advice in particular? I assume that you already had the adapter set to 2GB mode? You should also have verified that the drive geometry detected by sysinstall was correct (???/128/32); I suspect in your case that this was the problem. > I don't know why but I assume the incorrect drive geometry is detected by > the FDISK editor. That's correct; if there's garbage on the disk, or just bad geometry information, sysinstall gets it wrong. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7:41:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:41:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549DD37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:41:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA04528 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:41:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15236 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:41:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012201541.JAA15236@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. In-reply-to: Your message of "20 Dec 2000 15:42:19 +0100." <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:41:11 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se>, Assar Westerlund writes: >Aled Morris writes: >> On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Matt Dillon wrote: >> > void * >> > safe_malloc(int bytes) >> > { >> > void *ptr; >> > if ((ptr = malloc(bytes)) == NULL) >> > *(int *)0 = 1; /* force seg fault */ >> Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? >Why not err(3) or abort(3) ? Okay, from a style standpoint, the basic problem is that this function is a mistake. Programs may have temp files open, they may have stty settings to reset, there are tons of things you may need to do *BEFORE EXITING*. With that in mind, it becomes clear that you *can't* just abort-on-failure. Yes, it's a pain having every malloc() check for resources, but you *have to do it*, or you will litter the disk with forgotten files, break the user's terminal, and otherwise act like Microsoft Linux. You just have to handle each failure as it comes. Some require you to punt and go back and clean up all your work and exit gracefully. Others may have options open, where you can free something up, or ask for a little less. Of course, this is all made harder by the current fad of overcommitting; malloc can return a perfectly "good" pointer which you can't actually dereference later. I would like to point out that the original code is abjectly silly; after all, the pointer is likely to get referenced soon enough. At a bare minimum, the Correct Thing would be #define safe_malloc(x) safe_malloc_internal((x), __FILE__, __LINE__) void *safe_malloc(size_t bytes, char *file, int line) { void *p = malloc(bytes); if (p == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "can't allocate %lu bites at file %s, line %d.", (unsigned long) x, __FILE__, __LINE__); exit(EXIT_FAILURE); } } But that still presupposes it ever makes sense to just puke and die on a failed malloc. It might be reasonable to omit the exit(), and then, even if you segfault immediately after the malloc, you'll have logged what killed you. (In an ideal world, you'd have the program name in here.) (In an even more ideal world, you'd have C99, and you'd use %ju, and cast x to uintmax_t, because we don't know how large size_t will be in the future.) But really, the best implementation of safe_malloc is void *safe_malloc(char bytes) /* might as well, who cares? */ { #error "Malloc is about as safe as free climbing on large mountains." } -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 7:59:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 07:59:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.alcove.fr (smtp.alcove.fr [212.155.209.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3722937B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:59:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiliam.alcove-int ([10.16.110.19]) by smtp.alcove.fr with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148ldt-0004ob-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:59:01 +0100 Received: from nsouch by wiliam.alcove-int with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148lds-0004ot-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:59:00 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:59:00 +0100 From: Nicolas Souchu To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: msmith@freebsd.org Subject: VGL troubles when switching windows Message-ID: <20001220165859.C17917@wiliam.alcove-int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alc=F4ve=2C_http:=2F=2Fwww=2Ealcove=2Efr?= Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike, Hackers, There are timing problems when switching VGA memory windows in non linear frame buffer mode with my S3 card. The strange thing is that splash_bmp works well but not my small VGL application. The main difference between both contexts is that splash_bmp is executed before the system is up, whereas my VGL application runs in full multiuser mode. The trouble is that part of the displayed picture is shifted down and right. Note that while trying to debug it with gdb, and breaking on each VGLSetSegment() call, the pictures was drawn correctly. This is what makes me think that this is a timing problem. Of course, I tried to splhigh (under -stable) the vesa_set_origin() function, but with no success. Anyway, it's certainly already done by the vm86_intcall(). Any clue? nicholas -- Nicolas.Souchu@alcove.fr Alcôve - Open Source Software Engineer - http://www.alcove.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 8:19:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 08:19:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC14B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3867 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Dec 2000 16:19:08 -0000 Message-ID: <20001220161908.3866.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.33 by nwcst288 for [213.226.6.17] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.4B.01) on Wed Dec 20 16:19:08 GMT 2000 Date: 20 Dec 00 09:19:08 MST From: John Smith To: freebsd-net@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New netgraph features? Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4B.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: >John Smith wrote: >> = >> Hello, >> = >> Recently while I was playing with netgraph code >> I noted some interesting comments about 'tracing' >> netgraph packets and the ability to connect nodes >> located on different machines. I would like to ask >> if somebody is working on such a code and if it >> would be worth writing it. Any additional comments >> and ideas are also welcome. > >If you are playing with it, you may want to let me know your thoughts.. >I know many people are using it for this-and-that but we get >very little feedback. Well, I'm not a network administrator, so I haven't used netgraph for real services. In general, I like the idea, because I haven't seen yet a 'network problem' which I can't solve using netgraph. Well, many times my solution requires some code to be written, but... this is why I use FreeBSD - I can always do what I want to. :) In this case, netgraph helps a lot, because it already has some nodes and because it has a mechanism for easily implementing new nodes. One has enough power to solve his particular needs and there are few posibilities for 'design limitations'. > >I'm presently rewriting a large part of netgraph to make is suitable for= >running under SMP without the BGL.. (e.g fine grain locking) >so I'm interested in wha people think in general, and >specifically what the liked and didn't like. >Lastly, if you have used netraph, make sure that you have a look at the = >man page for the -current version to see what ha s been changing. > I'm currently running -current... so this is the only code/doc I'm = looking at. >looking at the extra argumants on the prototypes = >in /sys/netgraph/netgraph.h will show you where to look >for changes inthe source too. > >(in particular tha ability to route messages for flow control has = >been a large change). > > >As to your specific questions, these were vague ideas of things that we = >though were proctical but didn't have time to do. > >nodes on differnt machines could be connected by using a udp ksocket >node as a tunnel. = Well, may be I didn't said exactly what I wanted to. If we use say, ksocket nodes as a tunnel, we will transfer the data - ok, but what about metadata? May be I should say 'to connect two netgraphs'? May be this is a lost cause, but that's why I'm asking. >Tracing is simply the ability to add a flag to = >a metadata object, and adding code to the data delivery function >(ng_send_data()) to somehow emit trace information whnever the metadata >it is moving has that flag set. > >The latter would be very easy to do. (but what logging mechanism = >would you use, and how would you set the bits?) Well, probably there are several ways to do this - not quite sure. At this point I'm just asking for some feedback :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 8:42:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 08:42:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.alcove.fr (smtp.alcove.fr [212.155.209.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B832F37B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiliam.alcove-int ([10.16.110.19]) by smtp.alcove.fr with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148mK6-0005Io-00 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:42:38 +0100 Received: from nsouch by wiliam.alcove-int with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148mK5-0004wr-00 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:42:37 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:42:37 +0100 From: Nicolas Souchu To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: newbus question Message-ID: <20001220174237.A18944@wiliam.alcove-int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alc=F4ve=2C_http:=2F=2Fwww=2Ealcove=2Efr?= Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have to add specific initialisation to the ISA emulation of a graphic PCI card. It principle, this should be triggered by the PCI detection of the card, but I can't access the VGA address range before the vga isa driver is initialised. How could this be done? With newbus? If the vga driver was newbusified, should I attach my graphic card specific driver to both the pci bus and the vga generic driver and let it be initialised twice with two initialisation functions and only one softc structure? Thanks in advance, Nicholas -- Nicolas.Souchu@alcove.fr Alcôve - Open Source Software Engineer - http://www.alcove.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 8:46:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 08:46:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from motgate.mot.com (motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C47137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (motgate 2.1) with ESMTP id JAA20649 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:16 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from ilms02.cig.mot.com (ilms02.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.12]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id JAA20325 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:46:16 -0700 (MST)] Received: from em.cig.mot.com ([160.44.128.5]) by ilms02.cig.mot.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA62B7; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:46:15 -0600 Received: from localhost by em.cig.mot.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00523; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:46:14 -0600 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:46:14 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Mischo X-Sender: taz@minties To: Doug Ambrisko Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCTP implementation and pccard.conf change for Cisco 802.11B 340 series cards In-Reply-To: <200012112023.MAA18606@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Doug Ambrisko wrote: > BTW I just remembered a bug in that you can't do the ancontrol stuff > unless you ifconfig the interface. I need to look at this. I forgot > about it a long time ago when I just worked around it so it doesn't > bite me .. except when I just setup a machine. This bug wasn't a problem for me in 4.1 however, you can on dhcp configure the interface once...if you need to reconfig, you must reboot...THAT is a bug :) -Taz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 8:56:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 08:56:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from xram.ru (unknown [212.45.6.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6447A37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:56:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from xram.ru ([127.0.0.1]) by xram.ru with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2172.1); Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:55:30 +0300 From: "www.xram.ru" To: Subject: =?Windows-1251?Q?=CF=EE=E7=E4=F0=E0=E2=EB=FF=E5=EC=20?= =?Windows-1251?Q?=F1=20=CD=EE=E2=FB=EC=20=C3=EE=E4=EE=EC!?= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:55:30 Ìîñêîâñêîå âðåìÿ (çèìà) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: xram.ru Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Dec 2000 16:55:30.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9311C50:01C06AA5] Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ñåðäå÷íî ïîçäðàâëÿåì Âàñ ñ Íîâûì Ãîäîì!! Æåëàåì Âàì íà Íîâûé ãîä âñåõ ðàäîñòåé íà ñâåòå, Çäîðîâüÿ íà ñòî ëåò âïåðåä è Âàì, è Âàøèì äåòÿì! Ïóñòü ðàäîñòü â áóäóùåì ãîäó Âàì áóäåò ÷óäíûì äàðîì, À ñëåçû, ñêóêó è áåäó îñòàâüòå ëó÷øå â ñòàðîì! :)) ------------------------------------------------------------- Âñå ãîòîâÿòñÿ ê âñòðå÷å Íîâîãî Ãîäà. Ãîòîâÿò ïîäàðêè ñâîèì äðóçüÿì, ëþáèìûì, áëèçêèì è äåòÿì. Íî ïîðîé ëþäè çàáûâàþò, ÷òî â êàæäîé ñåìüå åñòü äåòè è ðàçíèöà ëèøü â òîì, ÷òî â îäíèõ ñåìüÿõ - äåòè, ñîãðåòûå çàáîòîé áëàãîïîëó÷íûõ ðîäèòåëåé - çäîðîâû è ñ÷àñòëèâû, â äðóãèõ - èíâàëèäû, áîëüíûå è ñèðîòû. Âîò óæå ïîëòîðà ãîäà ìû ïîìîãàåì îáëåã÷èòü îáåçäîëåííûì äåòÿì èõ íåëåãêóþ ñóäüáó. Ìû ïðîâîäèì áëàãîòâîðèòåëüíûé ìàðàôîí "Ãðàæäàíñêàÿ ïîçèöèÿ" â ïîääåðæêó äåòåé-èíâàëèäîâ, áîëüíûõ è ñèðîò. Çà ýòè ïîëòîðà ãîäà áëàãîäàðÿ Âàøåé ïîìîùè óäàëîñü ìíîãîãî äîñòè÷ü. Ìíîãèì äåòÿì ñîáðàíû ñðåäñòâà íà ëå÷åíèå, íà ïðîäóêòû ïèòàíèÿ è òåïëóþ îäåæäó. Çà ýòî îò èìåíè âñåõ äåòåé ãîâîðèì Âàì ÎÃÐÎÌÍÎÅ ×ÅËÎÂÅ×ÅÑÊÎÅ ÑÏÀÑÈÁÎ!! Ìû ðàäû, ÷òî ëþäè îñîçíàþò ñâîþ âåëè÷àéøóþ çíà÷èìîñòü â ñóäüáå îáåçäîëåííûõ äåòåé! Ìû ïðîñèì Âàñ â êàíóí Íîâîãî Ãîäà íå çàáûâàòü òâîðèòü âåëèêèå äåëà - ëþáèòü áëèæíèõ, ïîìîãàòü îáåçäîëåííûì. Ìû ïðèçûâàåì Âàñ ñäåëàòü äåòÿì âñòðå÷ó Íîâîãî 2001 Ãîäà íàñòîÿùèì ïðàçäíèêîì, âåäü ïðàçäíèêîâ â èõ æèçíè áûâàåò íå òàê ìíîãî! Ìû ïðèçûâàåì Âàñ ïîìî÷ü îáåçäîëåííûì äåòÿì è âíåñòè áëàãîòâîðèòåëüíûå âçíîñû â ìàðàôîí "Ãðàæäàíñêàÿ ïîçèöèÿ"! Ïåðå÷èñëåíèå áëàãîòâîðèòåëüíûõ ñðåäñòâ è äîáðîâîëüíûõ ïîæåðòâîâàíèé ìîæíî îñóùåñòâèòü ïî ñëåäóþùèì ðåêâèçèòàì: ------------------------------------------------------------- Ïîëó÷àòåëü: | ÎÎÎ "ÐÈÀ Ïðåññ-Öåíòð" ÈÍÍ ïîëó÷àòåëÿ: | 7716166144 Íàèìåíîâàíèå áàíêà: | Ìîñêâîðåöêîå îòä. 5284 ÌÁ ÀÊ ÑÁ ÐÔ ÁÈÊ: | 044525342 êîðð.ñ÷åò: | 30101810600000000342 ðàñ÷åòíûé ñ÷åò: | 40702810538310102549 Îñíîâàíèå ïëàòåæà: | Áëàãîòâîðèòåëüíûé âçíîñ ------------------------------------------------------------- Ïîäðîáíîñòè î áëàãîòâîðèòåëüíîì ìàðàôîíå "Ãðàæäàíñêàÿ ïîçèöèÿ" ìîæíî óçíàòü ïî àäðåñó http://kids.xram.ru, ïî ýëåêòðîííîé ïî÷òå help-kids@mail.ru èëè ïî òåëåôîíó (095) 202-8756 ------------------------------------------------------------- Äàâàéòå, è äàñòñÿ Âàì... Èáî êàêîþ ìåðîþ ìåðèòå, òàêîþ æå îòìåðèòñÿ è Âàì (Åâàíãåëèå îò Ëóêè 6:38) Áëàãîñëîâåíèå Áîæèå äà ïðåáóäåò íà âñåõ Âàñ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:15:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:15:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.nettoll.com (matrix.nettoll.net [212.155.143.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE0D037B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by smtp.nettoll.com; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:13:54 +0100 (MET) From: mouss Organization: NetToll To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach), seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach), hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:17:38 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: <200012201528.JAA15116@guild.plethora.net> In-Reply-To: <200012201528.JAA15116@guild.plethora.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00122018183605.95542@mogador.nettoll.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: mchilali@enition.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Peter Seebach wrote: > In message , Aled Morris > writes: > >Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? > > Gratuitously verbose! > raise(SIGSEGV); what about abort()? isn't yet less chars to type? cheers, mouss To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:21:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:21:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51B7237B402; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBKHL4Q67705; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:21:04 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012201721.eBKHL4Q67705@earth.backplane.com> To: Assar Westerlund Cc: Aled Morris , Jack Rusher , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. References: <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :> :> Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? : :Why not err(3) or abort(3) ? : :/assar I need something gdb can latch on to. If the program exits all the state required to debug the problem goes away. When writing a program one must make the run-time distinction between a bug and an expectable error. If it's a bug then something unexpected occured which has to be fixed, so the best thing to do is usually to seg fault. After a while of debugging like this, the bugs get worked out and the programs stop seg faulting. The final result tends to be a whole lot more stable then if you were to try to recover from or ignore the bug. I actually have a DBASSERT() macro to assert conditions and force the seg fault. The macro uses GCC's preprocessor's __FILE__, __LINE__, and __FUNCTION__ macros in a call to a routine which prints out where the program died and then forces the seg-fault. If you put reasonable, strategic assertions in the code you tend to catch problems before they've propogated through dozens of routines and become untraceable. #define DBASSERT(exp) \ if (!(exp)) _DBAssert(__FILE__, __LINE__, __FUNCTION__) ... void _DBAssert(const char *file, int line, const char *func) { fprintf(stderr, "Assertion failed %s line %d in %s\n", file, line, func); fflush(stderr); #ifndef NO_ASSERT_CORE *(long *)0 = 1; #endif exit(1); } -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:25:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:25:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21BFB37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10876 invoked by uid 3001); 20 Dec 2000 17:25:13 -0000 Received: from natto.numachi.com (198.175.254.216) by numachi.numachi.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 17:25:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 16638 invoked by uid 1001); 20 Dec 2000 17:25:13 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:25:13 -0500 From: Brian Reichert To: Mike Nowlin Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: <20001220122513.D16241@numachi.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from mike@argos.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500 Sender: reichert@natto.numachi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 03:15:40AM -0500, Mike Nowlin wrote: > > I recently made the decision to upgrade all of our net-booted X terminals > to full-blown workstations. (Basically, adding a hard drive and some > memory.) Having 19 people running Netscape remotely on our Alpha is > sucking up a gig of RAM and almost two gigs of swap, not to mention the > "normal" things the Alpha has to do... > > After fighting off (quite violently, I might add) the top-level > management who wanted to "just give everyone a Windows 98 machine - I > never have any problems with mine at home...!", I came up with the > following: > > -- Celeron 700-ish, 100Mb FXP, 20G, 64 or 128M, S3 or ATI Rage video > -- NIS for uname/passwd auth - any user can use any machine > -- /home mounted via NFS off a master file server for the users' files > -- everything else (with whatever exceptions I find) on the local HD. > -- (suggestions???) > > The users will basically need to be able to run X w/Gnome, StarOffice, > Nutscrape, and (the huge, resource-hogging app) telnet. > > I'm planning on building a fairly big machine to do world builds on to > keep these machines (30-ish) all synced to the same OS version, probably > with weekly installworlds on them. > > > Questions > --------- > > Handling the OS updates is pretty easy... Is there any equally easy way > to keep a particular set of ports updated automatically? I'd like to > avoid having to do a "make deinstall; make install" all the time... I've been using CVSup for privisioning for a couple of years. That can be pretty handy... -- Brian 'you Bastard' Reichert 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Daytime number: (603) 434-6842 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:33:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:33:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D5E37B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBKHVnI67850; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:31:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:31:49 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012201731.eBKHVnI67850@earth.backplane.com> To: Reddy Crashalott Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New performance patch available for testing on stable References: <200012152247.eBFMlg727583@earth.backplane.com> <200012201059.eBKAxnt24063@crotchety.newsbastards.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have another patch set available. #6 http://apollo.backplane.com/FreeBSD4/ (I'm working on a -current version of the patch. It takes a bit of time, I have to do it by hand). The previous patchset tried to pageout too much, which greatly effects load on heavily loaded machines. I wound up having to put the maxlaunder code back in but with some mods to deal with the opposite situation that Yahoo faces with all their dirty MAP_NOSYNC pages. News systems tend to have a huge number of recycleable 'clean' pages while Yahoo's machines tend to have a huge number of 'dirty' pages. I would first try the patch without any additional hacks, except perhaps for some tuning (via sysctl) of vm.v_cache_min and vm.max_launder. I would suggest raising vm.v_cache_min (don't raise it past vm.v_cache_max though or also raise vm.v_cache_max), and perhaps dropping vm.max_launder from 32 to 16. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:47:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:47:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770DE37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b ([24.0.36.170]) by femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001220174726.BHRZ29808.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx443070b>; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:47:26 -0800 Message-ID: <003701c06aad$3be58d40$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Dennis" , "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Cc: "Boris" , "Murray Stokely" , References: <200012200059.eBK0wCN02480@jhs.muc.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:49:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If 2 competing FreeBSD drivers are ever available for one piece of hardware, > one binary & professionaly supported, & one sourced & amateur support, > I expect FreeBSD will provide hooks for both, & let users decide themselves, > as is done with MATH_EMULATE & GPL_MATH_EMULATE. > > Julian Well spoken. (Sorry for the 1-liner) :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:49:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:49:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B5037B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.15.212] (helo=grand.canyon.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 148nN6-00059a-00 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:49:49 +0000 Received: by grand.canyon.demon.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 0A59B206A; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:49:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:49:37 +0100 From: Rene de Vries To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: statefull packet filter together with natd question Message-ID: <20001220184937.A788@canyon.demon.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: rene@canyon.demon.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, Some time a go I posted the same question to freebsd-questions, but uptill now I didn't get an answer. Currently I'm trying to move towards a statefull packet filter. When testing without nat all seems to work fine. But when I added natd (as the first rule) packets that were natd-ed on their way out had their return traffic blocked. The question is, what am I doing wrong?!? I hope somebody can tell me how to solve this problem. Rene from my logs: ipfw: Accept TCP 212.238.x.x:1026 x.x.x.x:23 out via isp0 ipfw: Deny TCP x.x.x.x:23 192.168.1.3:1026 in via isp0 ipfw rules: /sbin/ipfw -f flush /sbin/ipfw -q add divert natd all from any to any via isp0 /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any via lo0 /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any via dc0 /sbin/ipfw -q add check-state from any to any via isp0 /sbin/ipfw -q add deny log tcp from any to any established /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any out via isp0 keep-state /sbin/ipfw -q add deny log all from any to any -- Rene de Vries http://www.tcja.nl mailto:rene@tcja.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:57:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:57:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E592D37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKHvIb77566; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012201757.eBKHvIb77566@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: statefull packet filter together with natd question In-Reply-To: <20001220184937.A788@canyon.demon.nl> from Rene de Vries at "Dec 20, 2000 6:49:37 pm" To: freebsd@canyon.demon.nl (Rene de Vries) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:57:18 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello, > > Some time a go I posted the same question to freebsd-questions, but uptill now > I didn't get an answer. > > Currently I'm trying to move towards a statefull packet filter. When testing > without nat all seems to work fine. But when I added natd (as the first > rule) packets that were natd-ed on their way out had their return traffic > blocked. The question is, what am I doing wrong?!? nat changes addresses and then reinjects packets in the firewall. Chances are that there is no dynamic rule matching the packet after the translation. cheers luigi > I hope somebody can tell me how to solve this problem. > > Rene > > from my logs: > > ipfw: Accept TCP 212.238.x.x:1026 x.x.x.x:23 out via isp0 > ipfw: Deny TCP x.x.x.x:23 192.168.1.3:1026 in via isp0 > > ipfw rules: > > /sbin/ipfw -f flush > > /sbin/ipfw -q add divert natd all from any to any via isp0 > > /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any via lo0 > /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any via dc0 > > /sbin/ipfw -q add check-state from any to any via isp0 > /sbin/ipfw -q add deny log tcp from any to any established > /sbin/ipfw -q add allow all from any to any out via isp0 keep-state > > /sbin/ipfw -q add deny log all from any to any > > -- > Rene de Vries http://www.tcja.nl mailto:rene@tcja.nl > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 9:58:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 09:58:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from piranha.amis.net (piranha.amis.net [212.18.32.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD29537B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from titanic.medinet.si (titanic.medinet.si [212.18.32.66]) by piranha.amis.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A285E81 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:58:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:58:55 +0100 (CET) From: Blaz Zupan X-Sender: blaz@titanic.medinet.si To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Misfiled PR Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hope I chose the correct list for this question... Recently I noticed that all the PR's that I submit are first set to pending/12345 instead of the correct category. The category is later changed by a commiter to the correct one with the comment "Misfiled PR". What am I doing wrong? Blaz Zupan, Medinet d.o.o, Linhartova 21, 2000 Maribor, Slovenia E-mail: blaz@amis.net, Tel: +386-2-320-6320, Fax: +386-2-320-6325 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:12: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:11:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com (mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7076737B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd07.sul.t-online.com by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 148oeb-0006o6-01; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:11:57 +0100 Received: from frolic.no-support.loc (520094253176-0001@[217.0.156.237]) by fmrl07.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 148oe3-0mLa8eC; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:11:23 +0100 Received: (from bjoern@localhost) by frolic.no-support.loc (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBKJ1Fl01293; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:01:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from bjoern) From: Bjoern Fischer Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:01:15 +0100 To: "Sven C. Koehler" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Source code of the dynamic loader (ELF) Message-ID: <20001220200115.B950@frolic.no-support.loc> References: <20001219232026.A10708@zedat.fu-berlin.de> <20001220100002.A5739@zedat.fu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001220100002.A5739@zedat.fu-berlin.de>; from schween@snafu.de on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 10:00:02AM +0100 X-Sender: 520094253176-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Sven, > Umm.... I should have asked better. I am looking for the ELF Dynamic > Loader, which loads Shared Objects (the thing behind dlopen() et al.). > kern_linker.c looks to me as the loader of kernel objects (.ko files). look into /usr/src/libexec/rtld-elf/. Bjoern -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- GCS d--(+) s++: a- C+++(-) UB++++OSI++++$ P+++(-) L---(++) !E W- N+ o>+ K- !w !O !M !V PS++ PE- PGP++ t+++ !5 X++ tv- b+++ D++ G e+ h-- y+ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:18:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:18:52 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gekko.i-clue.de (server.ms-agentur.de [62.153.134.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4135137B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from i-clue.de (automatix.i-clue.de [192.168.0.112]) by gekko.i-clue.de (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) with ESMTP id VAA04897 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:24:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3A410676.207C7E32@i-clue.de> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:20:22 +0100 From: Christoph Sold Organization: i-clue GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [de] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Keyboard doesn't work anymore [repost, no answers on -questions] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks, suddenly, the console keyboard does no longer work. kdm is displayed, but no keypress works (except num lock and scroll lock, which light the appropriate LEDs). The box is still up and running, remote login is still possible, the mouse can still be used to select things in kdm. Ctl-Alt-Fn beeps (except for the console displaying kdm). After reboot, the keyboard is useable for a few minutes. Shortly thereafter, it's dead again. System: $ uname -a FreeBSD amnesix.i-clue.de 4.1-STABLE FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE #3: Thu Sep 7 22:54:08 CEST 2000 so@amnesix.i-clue.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/AMNESIX i386 Any ideas? What to check for? -Christoph Sold -- i-clue GmbH, Endersbacher Str. 57, D-71334 Waiblingen Fon: (0 71 51) 9 59 01-12, Fax: (0 71 51) 9 59 01-55 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:33:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:33:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (h122n4fls32o892.telia.com [213.64.47.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FA337B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA89020; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:33:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from assar) Sender: assar@assaris.sics.se To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. References: <200012201541.JAA15236@guild.plethora.net> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 20 Dec 2000 20:33:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:41:11 -0600" Message-ID: <5l3dfiyjkb.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: > Okay, from a style standpoint, the basic problem is that this function > is a mistake. No, I use a function like that (called emalloc) all the time, when I know there's nothing better to do than exit. > Programs may have temp files open, they may have stty > settings to reset, there are tons of things you may need to do *BEFORE > EXITING*. atexit > At a bare minimum, the Correct Thing would be > #define safe_malloc(x) safe_malloc_internal((x), __FILE__, __LINE__) > > void *safe_malloc(size_t bytes, char *file, int line) > { > void *p = malloc(bytes); > if (p == NULL) { > fprintf(stderr, "can't allocate %lu bites at file %s, line %d.", > (unsigned long) x, __FILE__, __LINE__); s/__FILE__/file/, s/__LINE__/line/ > (In an ideal world, you'd have the program name in here.) err(3) ? /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:35:34 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:35:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from assaris.sics.se (h122n4fls32o892.telia.com [213.64.47.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 404F837B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from assar@localhost) by assaris.sics.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA89039; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:35:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from assar) Sender: assar@assaris.sics.se To: Matt Dillon Cc: Aled Morris , Jack Rusher , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. References: <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <200012201721.eBKHL4Q67705@earth.backplane.com> From: Assar Westerlund Date: 20 Dec 2000 20:35:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: Matt Dillon's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:21:04 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: <5ly9xax4w7.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070098 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.98) Emacs/20.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon writes: > I need something gdb can latch on to. If the program exits all the state > required to debug the problem goes away. abort() doesn't exit, it sends a SIGABRT which is caught by gdb. /assar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:46:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:46:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C5537B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBKJkps20615; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:46:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA10857; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:46:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012201946.MAA10857@harmony.village.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: StrongARM support? Cc: Thomas Runge , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 03:19:54 CST." <20001220031954.A19117@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20001220031954.A19117@peorth.iteration.net> <20001219125657.A94588@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:46:50 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001220031954.A19117@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: : It was my understanding from BSDCon2000 that we are targeting : more platforms. It is my sense of core that core would support new architectures if they make sense. To make sense, the architecutre must be widely deployed (or about to be widely deployed). It must have enough brains that a port can be undertaken w/o rewriting large parts of the system (the MMU requirement). It must have enough of a life to make it worth while. And it must have a base of users that are willing to support it in the long haul. By long haul, I mean multiple years. StrongARM generally fits into this model. What is lacking is a good prototype. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 11:56:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 11:56:41 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257E137B400; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBKJueT69666; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:56:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012201956.eBKJueT69666@earth.backplane.com> To: Assar Westerlund Cc: Aled Morris , Jack Rusher , "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Warner Losh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. References: <5ld7enduic.fsf@assaris.sics.se> <200012201721.eBKHL4Q67705@earth.backplane.com> <5ly9xax4w7.fsf@assaris.sics.se> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Matt Dillon writes: :> I need something gdb can latch on to. If the program exits all the state :> required to debug the problem goes away. : :abort() doesn't exit, it sends a SIGABRT which is caught by gdb. : :/assar True, except abort() does some really stupid things like close all open streams... it doesn't leave the resulting core file in a debuggable state half the time. In otherwords, it is useless. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 12: 6:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:06:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dayspring.firedrake.org (dayspring.firedrake.org [195.82.105.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A6B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from float by dayspring.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 148pUs-0003iJ-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:05:58 +0000 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:05:58 +0000 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: LINT vs. ipcs Message-ID: <20001220200558.B9762@firedrake.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i From: void Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG LINT and the ipcs command seem to disagree on some points, like the meaning of shmall (bytes vs. pages). In all examples, I've put the quote from LINT followed by the excerpted output from ipcs -M or -S. options SHMALL=1025 # max amount of shared memory (bytes) vs. shmall: 1024 (max amount of shared memory in pages) Also, some values are very different: options SHMMNI=33 # max number of shared memory identifiers vs. shmmni: 96 (max number of shared memory identifiers) whereas many others are just off by one: options SEMMNU=31 # number of undo structures in the system vs. semmnu: 30 (# of undo structures in system) What I really want to know is, what do all these LINT variables mean? I have a user who needs more semaphores and shm segments configured, and I want to make sure I tune the right ones. Apparent candidates are SHMMNI, SHMSEG, SEMMNI, SEMMNS, and SEMMSL. -- Ben 220 go.ahead.make.my.day ESMTP Postfix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 12:16:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 12:16:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.gmx.net (pop.gmx.net [194.221.183.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B7B2637B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5972 invoked by uid 0); 20 Dec 2000 20:16:23 -0000 Received: from p3ee2165a.dip.t-dialin.net (HELO speedy.gsinet) (62.226.22.90) by mail.gmx.net (mail03) with SMTP; 20 Dec 2000 20:16:23 -0000 Received: (from sittig@localhost) by speedy.gsinet (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23101 for freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:15:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:15:48 +0100 From: Gerhard Sittig To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: how to test out cron.c changes? (was: cvs commit: src/etc crontab) Message-ID: <20001220211548.T253@speedy.gsinet> References: <200011191816.KAA81473@freefall.freebsd.org> <20001119214008.Z27042@speedy.gsinet> <20001120143658.B4415@netmode.ece.ntua.gr> <20001120193326.C27042@speedy.gsinet> <20001205225656.Z27042@speedy.gsinet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20001205225656.Z27042@speedy.gsinet>; from Gerhard.Sittig@gmx.net on Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 10:56:56PM +0100 Organization: System Defenestrators Inc. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ ... reminder after two weeks of silence ... ] On Tue, Dec 05, 2000 at 22:56 +0100, Gerhard Sittig wrote: > > [ I'm not subscribed to -hackers, please keep CC'ing me; thanks! ] > > [ ... ] > > This took the DST handling code of OpenBSD's cron, leaving the > other diffs / details (capabilities, logging, errno handling, gcc > work arounds, formatting, pipe/env etc stuff) aside. > > But what keeps me from feeding the changes back into the FreeBSD > project by means of send-pr(1) is that I don't want to do so > before testing that everything works as it should. That's where > I fail miserably: > > [ ... ] > > I'm lost. Please advise on how to best test this scenario. > Without local tests I definitely won't publish the patch (don't > feel at all like bothering others with code which doesn't work in > its basic functionality). > > Having the logic in cron itself would eliminate the never ending > discussion bubbling up twice a year on why cronjobs didn't run / > ran multiple times and where to move daily cronjobs to (ending up > every time with the result that _no_ time suits _all_ the FreeBSD > users -- there simply are way too many of them ... :). The full story can be found at http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=211030+217815+/usr/local/www/db/text/2000/freebsd-hackers/20001210.freebsd-hackers virtually yours 82D1 9B9C 01DC 4FB4 D7B4 61BE 3F49 4F77 72DE DA76 Gerhard Sittig true | mail -s "get gpg key" Gerhard.Sittig@gmx.net -- If you don't understand or are scared by any of the above ask your parents or an adult to help you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 14:22:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 14:22:56 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEDC37B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.15.212] (helo=grand.canyon.demon.nl) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 148rdO-0003U1-00; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:22:54 +0000 Received: by grand.canyon.demon.nl (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A94FA2157; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:22:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:22:39 +0100 From: Rene de Vries To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: statefull packet filter together with natd question Message-ID: <20001220232239.A1012@canyon.demon.nl> References: <20001220184937.A788@canyon.demon.nl> <200012201757.eBKHvIb77566@iguana.aciri.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012201757.eBKHvIb77566@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:57:18AM -0800 Sender: rene@canyon.demon.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:57:18AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > Currently I'm trying to move towards a statefull packet filter. When testing > > without nat all seems to work fine. But when I added natd (as the first > > rule) packets that were natd-ed on their way out had their return traffic > > blocked. The question is, what am I doing wrong?!? > > nat changes addresses and then reinjects packets in the firewall. > Chances are that there is no dynamic rule matching the > packet after the translation. This is what I know, the problem is how to nat at the right time. I played with two natting rules, one for incoming and one for outgoing traffic (to the same nat process) but I didn't got working. This made me think that there should be a simple solution to this problem. -- Rene de Vries http://www.tcja.nl mailto:rene@tcja.nl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 14:52:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 14:52:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.hellasnet.gr (mail.hellasnet.gr [212.54.192.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD6E37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:52:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (ppp7.patra.hellasnet.gr [212.54.197.22]) by mail.hellasnet.gr (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25332 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:52:28 -0200 (GMT) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBKJpZ511457 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:51:35 +0200 (EET) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:51:35 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Writing Device Drivers Message-ID: <20001220215135.C11175@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 10:15:44PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > ... Perhaps a good project for someone who wants to under-stand FreeBSD > device drivers would be to update the section 9 man pages? Speaking of which, I have a few changes that I wanted to post for man9/ section of the repository. These are just lots of scattered changes to manpages of section 9. What would the preferred way of sending these be? I am thinking of a) send-pr'ing a huge diff, or b) send-pr'ing many little changes [this can get annoying to the poor send-pr readers], or even c) put the changes on the web somewhere and post here the url. Any suggestions ? - giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 16:21:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 16:21:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBAB337B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-10.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.10]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA22299; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:20 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A414CFF.89F4D9D6@bellatlantic.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:21:19 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Justin Wojdacki Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> <3A401DC9.FE79B8AB@chiplogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Justin Wojdacki wrote: > > Sergey Babkin wrote: > > > > The drivers are _not_ assets. When I buy a piece of hardware I > > very reasonably expect that it would come with drivers or at > > least the manual on how to write these. It's a part of the deal. > > There are absolutely no reasons for the card manufacturers to > > withhold this information, their hardware is their copyright > > protection device and source of profit. > > > However, if the device requires software to take on part of the > functionality (examples: WinModems, although I'm not sure whether it's > the driver or the OS that's doing the work there. I also suspect some > OpenGL cards may be like this), then the driver is more likely to be > considered an asset. Therefore, asserting that the device manufacturer > has no reason to withhold this information is unfortunately incorrect. Agreed. But still keeping the hardware interface secret does not make that much sense. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 16:28:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 16:28:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618FD37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-10.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.10]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA22375; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:28:19 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A414EA2.46B51BEC@bellatlantic.net> Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:28:18 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Preece Cc: Justin Wojdacki , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219120619.020cbac0@mail.etinc.com> <3A4012A0.44B4CEED@bellatlantic.net> <5.0.0.25.1.20001220163018.01ada020@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Preece wrote: > > A lot of the reason why 3dfx (rip), Nvidia et al. often feel they cannot > release open source drivers is that a substantial proportion of what these > products do takes place on the host processor. Large quantities of research > go into the exact division of tasks between host processor and offload > processor, hence a large amount of their competitive advantage is derived They don't have to publish the source code of their firmware, if they download it from the driver then a binary image of firmware would do just fine. > from the driver code. They cannot afford to release it. Furthermore, AGP > represents a substantial bottleneck to them, the protocol by which they get > information down it is also of great commercial significance. Asking for Sorry for a stupid question but why would not they patent this protocol then ? For example, PostScript is patented by Adobe and the only reason everyone is able to use it is that Adobe had explicitly granted this right to the public. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 16:41: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 16:41:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D27237B402 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA80442; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:43:23 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:21 -0500 To: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" From: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200012200059.eBK0wCN02480@jhs.muc.de> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:58 PM 12/19/2000, Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de wrote: >Dennis wrote to Boris et all: > > > > >Device Drivers > > >-------------- > > >I don=B4t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > > >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > > >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > > > > You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should= not > > require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) > > support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he > > can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF > > hes a good enough coder to get it done. > > > "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a clue= what > >`Mainstream' is a target some seek to avoid. Micro$oft exemplifies=20 >mainstream. Your "mentality" has caused you to alienate yourselves from the rest of the= =20 world, which serves your ego but not the FreeBSD community. Acts such as:: 1) refusing to fix the kernel Make to work properly with binary modules 2) making statements like "if i dont get source i dont want it" 3) taking every opportunity to mock those who dont provide source indicate to corporate america that you have no interest in having them=20 develop significant products for Freebsd A successful strategy is to encourage all developers to contribute=20 products, binary or source, and let end users decide which products to buy= =20 or use. With such an inclusive strategy, customers have choices. with=20 binary distributions you have competition, with source everything is the= same. Binary distributions are not about piracy as much as they are maintaining a= =20 feature advantage over your competitors. If you provide source with=20 improved features, someone will port it to the cheapest hardware available= =20 and then you end up competing with your own technologies.on other hardware= =20 and you lose your margins. There is no incentive for companies to invest resources in developing=20 better software for their FreeBSD based products, because there is no=20 guarantee that people have to buy their boards to utilize it (if they can= =20 easily be ported to others). so, there is no corporate-driven progress. Why= =20 should D link provide their load balancing technology to freebsd if you can= =20 just use it on an intel or 3com card? they are in the business of selling=20 boards, not helping their competitors sell boards. db To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 21:17:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:17:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.196.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB1B37B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:xD73wh7oElPmSk0BdnTLpobbE/f4QSEG@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by outmail.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.11.0/3.7Wpl2) with ESMTP id eBL5HEV16305; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:17:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (IDENT:+F8GJFNy0HunqVv4PK05KDTasH1bfqbj@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp [160.12.42.1]) by zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp (8.9.3+3.2W/3.7W/zodiac-May2000) with ESMTP id OAA10550; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:24:41 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200012210524.OAA10550@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp> To: Christoph Sold Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, yokota@zodiac.mech.utsunomiya-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Keyboard doesn't work anymore [repost, no answers on -questions] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:20:22 +0100." <3A410676.207C7E32@i-clue.de> References: <3A410676.207C7E32@i-clue.de> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:24:40 +0900 From: Kazutaka YOKOTA Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >suddenly, the console keyboard does no longer work. kdm is displayed, >but no keypress works (except num lock and scroll lock, which light the >appropriate LEDs). This means your hardware (keyboard and keyboard controller) and FreeBSD kernel (keyboard drivver) are working ok. When in X, the keyboard driver passes all keystrokes, untouched and unmodified, to the X server, and the X server does all necessary processing to generate key input to X clients. So long as various lock keys and LEDs work correctly, we can say that the keyboard, the keyboard driver and the X server are exchanging data all right. It seems to me, somewhat the X server, or one of X clients, is eating up key strokes and not passing key input to where it should go. Oh, there is another possibility. How do you start the X server and kdm? There is a chance that the X server and getty are both trying to read from the keyboard. Read discussion on xdm in FreeBSD FAQ. There is a race condition to obtain access to the keyboard, and the X server and getty may be running in the same vty somewhat. Kazu >The box is still up and running, remote login is >still possible, the mouse can still be used to select things in kdm. > >Ctl-Alt-Fn beeps (except for the console displaying kdm). After reboot, >the keyboard is useable for a few minutes. Shortly thereafter, it's dead >again. > >System: $ uname -a >FreeBSD amnesix.i-clue.de 4.1-STABLE FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE #3: Thu Sep 7 >22:54:08 >CEST 2000 so@amnesix.i-clue.de:/usr/src/sys/compile/AMNESIX i386 > >Any ideas? What to check for? > >-Christoph Sold To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 21:42: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:42:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (unknown [167.216.157.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C75E237B400 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:42:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBL5qtc00510; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012210552.eBL5qtc00510@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Nicolas Souchu Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus question In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 17:42:37 +0100." <20001220174237.A18944@wiliam.alcove-int> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:52:55 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I have to add specific initialisation to the ISA emulation of > a graphic PCI card. > > It principle, this should be triggered by the PCI detection of the card, > but I can't access the VGA address range before the vga isa driver > is initialised. > > How could this be done? With newbus? I think so. I may not be understanding you correctly here though. > If the vga driver was newbusified, should I attach my graphic card specific > driver to both the pci bus and the vga generic driver and let it > be initialised twice with two initialisation functions and only one > softc structure? No, I don't think so. If I understand what you're talking about, you want to add some extra initialisation for a specific but otherwise standard PCI VGA card, and you want to do this with a device driver which "owns" the card. The best way I can think of doing this is as follows: - Your driver should determine whether the VGA adapter is the "primary" adapter. Working this out may be a little tricky. - In your attach routine (not in the probe routine, since you may not actually win the probe bidding), add extra resources to the device_t which match the "legacy" VGA resources, so that you claim exclusive ownership of these resources. You can do this with bus_set_resource. I hope this helps. Mike -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Dec 20 21:48:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Dec 20 21:48:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E89D37B404 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA24786 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:48:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA23830 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:48:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012210548.XAA23830@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Subject: Supporting VirtualPC... Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:48:10 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quick summary: VirtualPC has a PCI configuration quirk. Specifically, in isa/pcibus.c, after mode1res = inl(CONF1_ADDR_PORT); we have if (mode1res) { if (pci_cfgcheck(32)) return (cfgmech); } If I change this to "if (1)", VirtualPC works. Otherwise, the PCI bus is never found. There's also a quirk in the DEC 21041 emulation. I am wondering what would be considered a "good" way to encode the knowledge that machines with "ConnectixCPU" in the mode string need specific special treatment in two widely disparate places. In NetBSD, I just added a variable "cpu_is_vpc", which is declared only if you have options VPC_CPU, and then I test for it only in the modules that need to know. (There are more of them, since I also did support for VPC 3.) I am too lazy to duplicate all of the VPC 3 workarounds, so I really only need to check this in two places. Is there an easy way to check the CPU mode string later on in the life of the kernel? Ideally, it would be cheap, and I'd also want to #ifdef it with an option specific to VirtualPC, so people don't have to waste cycles on the test. (The if_de quirk, BTW, is that they always send the abnormal interrupt for "transmit process stopped" after a transmit completes normally. Oops!) -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 0:23:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 00:23:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7582E37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14914h-0000VQ-00; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:27:43 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A41BEFF.AC6E6CB9@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:27:43 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Dennis , Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: <16785804580.20001219030629@x-itec.de> <5.0.0.25.0.20001219111044.020739e0@mail.etinc.com> <20001219123956.A30283@peorth.iteration.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:43:17AM -0500, Dennis scribbled: > | > | case and point: How many of us are sitting on our hands waiting for DG to > | have time to fix the latest snafu in the if_fxp driver? You cant blame him > | for having a job and earning a living, but the fact is that only he has > | enough experience with the part to do the job. We all have source, but who > | wants to spend a couple of weeks learning the intricacies of a very complex > | part to fix what amounts to a very small bug? > > Many of us do. I, in fact, once did. It was a great learning opportunity for me and only a minor pain in the butt for DG. I collected data and learned where the driver hung, he realized almost immediately what was causing the problem and sent me a quick pointer to aonther driver that already had the same problem sovled, and it took me another few minutes to isolate the code, test, and provide a patch. It is a shame how many think they cannot be of help in a situation like this, when in reality they can be extremely helpful. One of the most important skills you can learn and polish as an open source contributor is to write good bug reports or descriptions. Instead of saying "your driver don't work with my xyz123 rev A-11 card", say "the card initialization enters the loop in xyz123.c at line 413 (rev 1.4.2.27) and never returns; if I change to the to exit after 1 million tries, the system boots but the the xyz123 device isn't in the dmesg." Then include the full dmesg and perhaps your kernel config if that might have something to do with it. You'd be astonished just how helpful you CAN be, simply by tracking down an appropriate routine, adding a few printfs, and isolating where the problem is occurring. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 0:41:35 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 00:41:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.alcove.fr (smtp.alcove.fr [212.155.209.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6469437B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiliam.alcove-int ([10.16.110.19]) by smtp.alcove.fr with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1491I2-0003ED-00; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:41:30 +0100 Received: from nsouch by wiliam.alcove-int with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1491I1-0005Hb-00; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:41:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:41:29 +0100 From: Nicolas Souchu To: Mike Smith Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: newbus question Message-ID: <20001221094129.A20285@wiliam.alcove-int> References: <20001220174237.A18944@wiliam.alcove-int> <200012210552.eBL5qtc00510@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <200012210552.eBL5qtc00510@mass.osd.bsdi.com>; from msmith@freebsd.org on Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:52:55PM -0800 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alc=F4ve=2C_http:=2F=2Fwww=2Ealcove=2Efr?= Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 09:52:55PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > If the vga driver was newbusified, should I attach my graphic card specific > > driver to both the pci bus and the vga generic driver and let it > > be initialised twice with two initialisation functions and only one > > softc structure? > > No, I don't think so. If I understand what you're talking about, you > want to add some extra initialisation for a specific but otherwise > standard PCI VGA card, and you want to do this with a device driver which > "owns" the card. Exactly. > > The best way I can think of doing this is as follows: > > - Your driver should determine whether the VGA adapter is the "primary" > adapter. Working this out may be a little tricky. As a first cut, I would consider it as the only card. But yes, I should take this into account. > > - In your attach routine (not in the probe routine, since you may not > actually win the probe bidding), add extra resources to the device_t > which match the "legacy" VGA resources, so that you claim exclusive > ownership of these resources. You can do this with bus_set_resource. Can I claim ISA resources while in a PCI probe? Resources are bus dependent like the bus_xxx_resource() functions. In fact, I want to add the linear buffer configuration trick for some S3 cards which have linear frame buffering support but *only* 1.2 VESA. It uses some extra ISA ports just after the standard VGA ones. For this, I was thinking of newbusifying vga / vesa and fb and attach my S3 trick to pci and vga. VGA would be a child of isa_vga, as currently, vesa a child of VGA and fb a child of VESA and VGA. Of course in a VESA+VGA configuration there would be two fb... one with vesa support, one without. But this would make the hypothesis that the PCI probe is made before the ISA. Which may not be the case (I don't know). As a matter of fact, the vga_S3 trick shall only be activated only if the PCI board is present. I'm a bit confused with the current architecture of the VGA/VESA/FB drivers. They call each other and not always in the same direction. Espacially the FB and VGA. Should we have the VGA driver as a backend of the FB one? Eventually with VESA between them. Tell me if I'm wrong. Nicholas -- Nicolas.Souchu@alcove.fr Alcôve - Open Source Software Engineer - http://www.alcove.fr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 0:45:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 00:45:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D2A37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:45:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 1491Lt-0000Vn-00; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:45:29 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A41C329.6E3C1EFD@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:45:29 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Nowlin Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Nowlin wrote: > > I recently made the decision to upgrade all of our net-booted X terminals > to full-blown workstations. (Basically, adding a hard drive and some > memory.) Having 19 people running Netscape remotely on our Alpha is > sucking up a gig of RAM and almost two gigs of swap, not to mention the > "normal" things the Alpha has to do... > > After fighting off (quite violently, I might add) the top-level > management who wanted to "just give everyone a Windows 98 machine - I > never have any problems with mine at home...!", I came up with the > following: > > -- Celeron 700-ish, 100Mb FXP, 20G, 64 or 128M, S3 or ATI Rage video > -- NIS for uname/passwd auth - any user can use any machine > -- /home mounted via NFS off a master file server for the users' files > -- everything else (with whatever exceptions I find) on the local HD. > -- (suggestions???) > > The users will basically need to be able to run X w/Gnome, StarOffice, > Nutscrape, and (the huge, resource-hogging app) telnet. Figure 32MB RAM for FreeBSD & X, 64MB for Netscape, and 64MB for StarOffice. If you want to run both Netscape and StarOffice at the same time, 128MB isn't enough. Sigh. If your users have a "usual" work position, you may way to place their home directory on that machine. Export all the home directories and mount them on the other machines using amd. This does make the amd configuration differ from machine to machine, however. WindowMaker feels much more snappy than Gnome on limited CPU resources. I'm not sure a 700 Mhz Celeron really qualifies, though. Durons are cheaper and faster than Celerons, though the motherboards may more than make up the difference in price. FreeBSD runs quite nicely on Duron and Athlon systems based on good motherboards. Good luck, and write an article about it when you're done. DaemonNews would be happy to publish it. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 1:10:46 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 01:10:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (mailextj1.compaq.co.jp [161.114.192.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99A237B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (Postfix, from userid 12345) id D96648C3; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:09:52 +0900 (JST) Received: from exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net (exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net [16.161.3.218]) by mailextj1.compaq.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEADC985 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:09:52 +0900 (JST) Received: by exctko-conn03.tko.cpqcorp.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:09:51 +0900 Message-ID: From: "Aoyama, Kieko" To: "'freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org'" Cc: "Aoyama, Kieko" Subject: Question(About Fdisk Partition Editor) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:09:45 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello. I have trabbleed now,about Partion Editor when installing Free BSD ver.4.2 to my (office)PC. I would like to installing Free BSD my PC in office with remaining Windows 2000. When " Kernel Configulation Menu",I chose "Skip kernel configulation and continue with installation",and next I chose "Standard". When the window showed me like this, Disk name:ad0 Disk Geometry:1216 cyls /255 heads /63 sectors = 1953040 sectors(9538MB) Offset Size(ST) End Name PType Desc Subtype Flags 0 63 62 - 6 unused 0 63 19518912 19518974 ad0s1 1 NTFS/HPFS/QNX 7 19518975 22113 19541087 - 6 unused 0 Then I chose "Quit",and in next window I chose "Standard". And, I reached the window "Free BSD Disklabel Editor", when I selected A....... I had a message "You can only do this in a disk slice(at top of screen). Then I couldn't underatand what to do. And ,should I buy a boot selector?? -- Kieko AOYAMA@Compaq.Computer K.K. Tel:03-5349-3263 Fax:03-5349-7458 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 1:14:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 01:14:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from jason.argos.org (a13b063.neo.rr.com [204.210.197.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6EB37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by jason.argos.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBL97kL22962; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:07:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:07:46 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Nowlin To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, mark@smlab.com Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... In-Reply-To: <3A41C329.6E3C1EFD@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Figure 32MB RAM for FreeBSD & X, 64MB for Netscape, and 64MB for StarOffice. > If you want to run both Netscape and StarOffice at the same time, 128MB > isn't enough. Sigh. Yup... I noticed that 64MB might be a little short when I set one of these up earlier today. :( I think I'll do 128 for now, since the price difference gets absorbed fairly easily into the total cost. > Good luck, and write an article about it when you're done. DaemonNews would > be happy to publish it. ;^) I may just do that. A real-world commercial FreeBSD success story could be good for PR. Although I have a soft spot in my heart for Linux, I prefer to use FBSD for "important" stuff, and it's about time that it gets some more good press... Due to the fact that this project is for a medical lab that's subject to the upcoming HIPAA regulations (check out www.hcfa.gov) and Medicare compliance policies, there's a lot to be said there about how FBSD handles the security aspects of this whole thing as compared to Redmond products... :) --mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 3:25: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 03:25:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF4B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12315; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:23:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Nowlin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... References: <3A41C329.6E3C1EFD@softweyr.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Dec 2000 12:23:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 01:45:29 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters writes: > Mike Nowlin wrote: > > The users will basically need to be able to run X w/Gnome, StarOffice, > > Nutscrape, and (the huge, resource-hogging app) telnet. > Figure 32MB RAM for FreeBSD & X, 64MB for Netscape, and 64MB for StarOffice. > If you want to run both Netscape and StarOffice at the same time, 128MB > isn't enough. Sigh. Avoid StarOffice like the plague. It's neat, but it leaks like a sieve, and barely crawls along on my 450 MHz K6-2. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 3:29:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 03:29:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.149.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC00A37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27579 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2000 11:29:41 -0000 Received: from jhs.muc.de (193.149.49.84) by slarti.muc.de with SMTP; 21 Dec 2000 11:29:41 -0000 Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBLBY9H07488; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:34:13 GMT (envelope-from root@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200012211134.eBLBY9H07488@jhs.muc.de> To: Dennis Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Message from Dennis of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:45:21 EST." <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:34:09 +0100 From: "Root%flip@jhs.muc.de" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote: > At 07:58 PM 12/19/2000, Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de wrote: > >Dennis wrote to Boris et all: > > > > > > >Device Drivers > > > >-------------- > > > >I don´t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > > > >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > > > >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > > > > > > You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers should no > t > > > require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) > > > support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things IF he > > > can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem and IF > > > hes a good enough coder to get it done. > > > > > "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a clue what > > > >`Mainstream' is a target some seek to avoid. Micro$oft exemplifies > >mainstream. > > Your "mentality" has caused you to alienate yourselves from the rest of the > world, which serves your ego but not the FreeBSD community. Acts such as:: > > 1) refusing to fix the kernel Make to work properly with binary modules Dennis, Your headers are wrong, You wrote: To: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Cc: Boris , Murray Stokely , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> I Julian, the addressee, Did Not refuse ... etc, or all the rest, So please fix your headers, or use "You `Persons name`". Re. a post of yours about a day before, to someone else, not me: When criticising a person's ideas or actions, adding personal perjoratives (IE calling names) can detract as well from critic, as from target. Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4200 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 3:30:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 03:30:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kai.qix.co.uk (kai.qix.co.uk [195.149.39.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1319637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (aledm@localhost) by kai.qix.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02583; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:29:54 GMT (envelope-from aledm@qix.co.uk) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:29:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Aled Morris To: Peter Seebach Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why not another style thread? (was Re: cvs commit: src/lib/libc/gen .. In-Reply-To: <200012201528.JAA15116@guild.plethora.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 20 Dec 2000, Peter Seebach wrote: >In message , Aled Morris >writes: >>Shouldn't you use "kill(0, SIGSEGV)" ? > >Gratuitously verbose! > raise(SIGSEGV); > >(To be fair, raise(SIGSEGV) is quite likely to just jump to the segfault >handler without actually setting any signal bits, but who can tell?[*]) From /usr/src/lib/libc/gen/raise.c: int raise(s) int s; { return(kill(getpid(), s)); } which raises an interesting difference between my "kill(0," and the probably more rigourously correct "kill(getpid()," in the context of trying to emulate the effect of "*(int *)0 = 1". Aled -- nic-hdl:AWM1-RIPE To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 3:33: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 03:33:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E89D37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12347; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:32:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Supporting VirtualPC... References: <200012210548.XAA23830@guild.plethora.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Dec 2000 12:32:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net's message of "Wed, 20 Dec 2000 23:48:10 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: > I am wondering what would be considered a "good" way to encode the knowledge > that machines with "ConnectixCPU" in the mode string need specific special > treatment in two widely disparate places. Assuming the ident code correctly sets cpu_vendor to "ConnectixCPU" (rather than e.g. "GenuineIntel" or "AuthenticAMD") you can just check against that. It's declared in . DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 6: 4:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 06:04:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mutsaers.com (dubkurdsp503.agrinet.ch [212.232.160.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755BB37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by mutsaers.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBLE4Bh09034; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:04:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from plm) Sender: plm@mutsaers.com To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.1.20001220163018.01ada020_pop3.i4free.co.nz@ns.sol.net> <3A414EA2.46B51BEC_bellatlantic.net@ns.sol.net> From: Peter Mutsaers Date: 21 Dec 2000 15:04:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: babkin@bellatlantic.net's message of "21 Dec 2000 00:28:42 +0000" Message-ID: <87itod98h0.fsf@mutsaers.com> Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> "babkin" =3D=3D babkin writes: babkin> Sorry for a stupid question but why would not they patent babkin> this protocol then ? For example, PostScript is patented babkin> by Adobe and the only reason everyone is able to use it is babkin> that Adobe had explicitly granted this right to the babkin> public. I don't think this is possible worldwide. In Europe, software patents do not exist and cannot be granted. There was an attempt to change this lately, but (luckily) it failed for the time being. The European Commision was convinced by open source advocates that software patents are bad. At least it made them think twice and postpone the process. The only thing you can protect is the implementation (the program, in this case to read/write the protocol) under copyright. Thus 'anyone' could learn the protocol from looking at the driver sourcecode and then implement a drop-in replacement for the card hardware. As others have said, given the rapid developments in the 3D graphics world, that hardly seems practible though. --=20 Peter Mutsaers | D=FCbendorf | UNIX - Live free or die plm@gmx.li | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.2-stable To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 8:13:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 08:13:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773C737B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA04993 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:13:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA26240 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:13:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012211613.KAA26240@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Supporting VirtualPC... In-reply-to: Your message of "21 Dec 2000 12:32:52 +0100." Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:13:06 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: >seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: >> I am wondering what would be considered a "good" way to encode the knowledge >> that machines with "ConnectixCPU" in the mode string need specific special >> treatment in two widely disparate places. >Assuming the ident code correctly sets cpu_vendor to "ConnectixCPU" >(rather than e.g. "GenuineIntel" or "AuthenticAMD") you can just check >against that. It's declared in . Yeah, but in an ideal world, I wouldn't be calling strcmp on the CPU type every time the ethernet card interrupts... Is there a good place to add a dummy variable that can be tested? Perhaps md_var.h could have #ifdef VPC_CPU int cpu_is_vpc; #endif and not break anyone's heart? I'm just trying to avoid stepping on namespace conventions. ;) -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 8:26:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 08:26:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F84A37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97C66E3296 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:25:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA13165; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:24:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Supporting VirtualPC... References: <200012211613.KAA26240@guild.plethora.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Dec 2000 17:24:10 +0100 In-Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net's message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:13:06 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) writes: > Yeah, but in an ideal world, I wouldn't be calling strcmp on the CPU > type every time the ethernet card interrupts... Is there a good place to > add a dummy variable that can be tested? Perhaps md_var.h could have > #ifdef VPC_CPU > int cpu_is_vpc; > #endif > and not break anyone's heart? No. Check cpu_vendor at probe/attach time and set a flag in the interface's softc that indicates that it needs to be treated as a VPC emulated interface. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 8:52:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 08:52:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 433C137B698; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18492; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:52:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20001221115213.A18062@netmonger.net> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:52:13 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: Stephen Hocking , multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GLide3 CVS - building & patching References: <200012142209.eBEM9UG76148@bloop.craftncomp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <200012142209.eBEM9UG76148@bloop.craftncomp.com>; from Stephen Hocking on Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:09:30PM -0600 Sender: chris@cheddar.netmonger.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 14, 2000 at 04:09:30PM -0600, Stephen Hocking wrote: > I've almost built the glide3 from sourceforge's CVS, and intend to > make a port of it sometime (it's required for the latest DRI stuff) > - has anyone else done this? This later version is also necessary > for the voodoo 4 & 5, plus a few things in the headers have changed > over time, which the DRI CVS tree seems to need. It would be great to have a port for this stuff. I've had a Voodoo 3 card for a while, but never managed to get all the pieces right so that OpenGL things would actually use it. -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 9:41:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:41:07 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5676B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:41:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA82809; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:43:25 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:45:09 -0500 To: marcov@stack.nl (Marco van de Voort) From: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20001221104823.6BE7C96EC@toad.stack.nl> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:48 AM 12/21/2000, you wrote: >[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > At 07:58 PM 12/19/2000, Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de wrote: > > >Dennis wrote to Boris et all: > > > > > > > > >Device Drivers > > > > >-------------- > > > > >I don_t like binary only device drivers. The code of an operating > > > > >system is more complex than a driver. if a company does not want to > > > > >publish the sourcecode, the should go away. > > > > > > > > You've lost all credibility here. Well supported device drivers > should not > > > > require source. I'd prefer a commercial (preferably the manufacters) > > > > support other than some guy in the ural mountains who fixes things > IF he > > > > can get a card with a problem and IF he can duplicate the problem > and IF > > > > hes a good enough coder to get it done. > > > > > > > "hacker mentality" is not mainstream. 98% of people dont have a > clue what > > > > > >`Mainstream' is a target some seek to avoid. Micro$oft exemplifies > > >mainstream. > > > > Your "mentality" has caused you to alienate yourselves from the rest of > the > > world, which serves your ego but not the FreeBSD community. Acts such as:: > >I don't agree. I think some brake on the evolution towards more binary-only >distributions is important for the continuity of FreeBSD. > >Your allegations are short sighted. True, they make life easier for users on >the shortterm. But in the long run, because of steadily rising binary parts, >FreeBSD won't controlled any more by the people who made it, but the ones >that can plug entire classes of hardware support from it, which is bad for >everyone involved. If you want freebsd to remain a cult OS for hackers you are correct. > > > 2) making statements like "if i dont get source i dont want it" > >Why would that be bad? Its similar to not buying products with a union label. That strategy is only good for the unions, not for the industry or for the country. You are eliminating choices and competition to serve a political interest. I enjoy hearing people that have rejected our product because we dont give source complain about persistent problems with public drivers. They get what they pay for. > > indicate to corporate america that you have no interest in having them > > develop significant products for Freebsd > >Not true. Indicate to coprorate America that they can work with us, but >don't control us. > > > A successful strategy is to encourage all developers to contribute > > products, binary or source, and let end users decide which products to buy > > or use. > >Short term successful only. > > > With such an inclusive strategy, customers have choices. with > > binary distributions you have competition, with source everything is > the same. > >With binary distributions you still have no competition, since the drivers >are for a specific hardware device. > > > Binary distributions are not about piracy as much as they are > maintaining a > > feature advantage over your competitors. > >No, since the features are in the hardware, and competitors are able enough >to reverse engineer them. Only the OSS community is seriously hindered, >because they can't put as many fulltime employed people on it, and are much >more endangered by legal consequences, without capital to protect them. > > > If you provide source with > > improved features, someone will port it to the cheapest hardware available > > and then you end up competing with your own technologies.on other > hardware > > and you lose your margins. > >That will still happen. There is something like "disassemblers" (try objdump >:-) > >If the feature is that important competitively, the added hassle of binary >only is no bump for the competition. Source is more of a "hassle", binary loads right up. the SNMP package is a great example. Doing it from source is a nightmare. Missing includes, wrong paths. compile failures. The package loads right up and Im running. We sold tons of cards for a long time because we were the only ones to have frame relay , and now we still have a superior implementation and allows us to get higher margins on our cards. We also dont have to deal with some weenie on the phone who balks at our price and says "oh I can get a Z80 based sangoma card for $200. that will do that". Why should developers not get dollars for their technology? If we couldnt have gotten dollars for it, we wouldnt have developed it, and the Freebsd community would have had to do without frame relay and multiport serial cards for 2-3 years until it found its way into the tree. > > There is no incentive for companies to invest resources in developing > > better software for their FreeBSD based products, because there is no > > guarantee that people have to buy their boards to utilize it (if they can > > easily be ported to others). > >1. Which, is only rarely the case (portable unique features in drivers) >2. Which, given that is such a break-through, will be reverse engineered by >the other manufacterors again. Reverse engineering is a myth. The result is so inferior to high-level language source code as to not be a concern, plus its illegal so it cant be marketed. >So, what is left ? Binary drivers are nothing but a mental phantom of some >corporate managers, which should seek help. > >They don't help anyone. They hardly hinder the competition, and majorly >hinder the OSS tree. Its a good thing you are not a lawyer, because your arguments are wrong and laughable. How does Intel's binary ethernet card driver for Win98 hurt the OS tree? how does a video driver hurt the OS tree? The FreeBSD "tree" is protected by the core team. its no in danger. a good OS provides clean hooks to accommodate add-ones and they shouldnt affect the tree at all. If Microsoft made source available to win98, the commercial vendors could still distributor binary add-ons without affecting the tree. One thing has nothing to do with the other. What "hurts" the tree is all of the crappy source and proprietory bullshit that finds it way into the "tree" netgraph, half-baked bridging, filtering stuff...these should all be add-ons with specific hooks so that users can chose between the "Free stuff" and commercially available modules. For the source weenies, they can use the "all source" solutions, while companies who want superior functionality can pay for commercially supported solutions. You obviously dont understand business, but you cant teach a fish to fly, so Its really no use. Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 9:48:10 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:48:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from warspite.cnchost.com (warspite.concentric.net [207.155.248.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB2A37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by warspite.cnchost.com id MAA22671; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:47:57 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: Subject: RE: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:48:44 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3A41BEFF.AC6E6CB9@softweyr.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's the thing about open software that still concerns me. My background is with the major software development tools companies, so that is my point of reference. It is great that code is available and fixes are made and pushed out, but who is doing real testing of these fixes. Sure the obvious problem is fixed, but what other problems has it uncovered, what side effect has it created, and how about compatibility with other software or drivers in this case. With commercial software (well at least the places I worked) nothing could go out the door without a complete QA cycle performed on it. Even the smallest of bug fixes couldn't be released without a QA cycle. A full QA cycle was time consuming and expensive, so fixes sat until there was a stack of them to QA'd as a group or they had to wait until next upgrade. That way we knew state of the product. Yes, the state of the product would include known bugs. The key was a known bug and a known documented bug was as valuable as a fix. Sure a bug is bad, but if it is documented you don't waste trying to make something work that is known to be broke. So who is testing these fixes in open source world? Just seeing if the problem at hand is gone isn't real testing, even claiming thousands of people are now using it isn't enough. There can still be lurking potentially data destroying bugs lurking. In the open source world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but needs to be done. Steve B. > -----Original Message----- > From: wes@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:wes@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Wes Peters > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:28 AM > To: Michael C . Wu > Cc: Dennis; Boris; Murray Stokely; freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, > Solaris, and > NT) > > > "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:43:17AM -0500, Dennis scribbled: > > | > > | case and point: How many of us are sitting on our hands > waiting for DG to > > | have time to fix the latest snafu in the if_fxp driver? > You cant blame him > > | for having a job and earning a living, but the fact is > that only he has > > | enough experience with the part to do the job. We all > have source, but who > > | wants to spend a couple of weeks learning the > intricacies of a very complex > > | part to fix what amounts to a very small bug? > > > > Many of us do. > > I, in fact, once did. It was a great learning opportunity > for me and only a > minor pain in the butt for DG. I collected data and > learned where the driver > hung, he realized almost immediately what was causing the > problem and sent me > a quick pointer to aonther driver that already had the same > problem sovled, > and it took me another few minutes to isolate the code, > test, and provide a > patch. > > It is a shame how many think they cannot be of help in a > situation like this, > when in reality they can be extremely helpful. One of the > most important > skills you can learn and polish as an open source > contributor is to write > good bug reports or descriptions. Instead of saying "your > driver don't work > with my xyz123 rev A-11 card", say "the card initialization > enters the loop > in xyz123.c at line 413 (rev 1.4.2.27) and never returns; > if I change to the > to exit after 1 million tries, the system boots but the the > xyz123 device > isn't in the dmesg." Then include the full dmesg and > perhaps your kernel > config if that might have something to do with it. > > You'd be astonished just how helpful you CAN be, simply by > tracking down an > appropriate routine, adding a few printfs, and isolating > where the problem > is occurring. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters > Softweyr LLC > wes@softweyr.com > http://softweyr.com/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 9:48:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:48:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AAB37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:48:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBLHh1x08604; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:43:01 -0800 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:43:01 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: Wes Peters Cc: Mike Nowlin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... Message-ID: <20001221094301.C1391@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3A41C329.6E3C1EFD@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3A41C329.6E3C1EFD@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 01:45:29AM -0700 Sender: brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 01:45:29AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Figure 32MB RAM for FreeBSD & X, 64MB for Netscape, and 64MB for StarOffice. > If you want to run both Netscape and StarOffice at the same time, 128MB > isn't enough. Sigh. Definatly true. :-( > If your users have a "usual" work position, you may way to place their home > directory on that machine. Export all the home directories and mount them > on the other machines using amd. This does make the amd configuration differ > from machine to machine, however. If you do it right the files will be the same on each machine. This simple example shows how to keep a solaris box from loopback nfs mounting its own file systems. A more complicated setup would do what you describe with a single amd map (possiable shared via your favorite directory service): * -rfs:=/export/home/${key} \ host==draupnir;type:=lofs \ host!=draupnir;rhost:=draupnir > Good luck, and write an article about it when you're done. DaemonNews would > be happy to publish it. ;^) That would be a really nice article. -- Brooks -- Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 9:49: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:49:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (sfo-gw.covalent.net [207.44.198.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0986637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.15 #3) id 148Bio-0007oi-00; Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:37:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 01:37:42 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Andrew Reilly Cc: Jordan Hubbard , Patryk Zadarnowski , SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel type Message-ID: <20001219013742.B30096@hand.dotat.at> References: <85112.977020676@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20001217203917.A42764@gurney.reilly.home> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: fanf@dotat.at Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew Reilly wrote: > >Yeah, but in what sense is that use of Mach a serious >microkernel, if it's only got one server: BSD? IIRC the Mac parts of Mac OS X run as another server beside BSD on top of Mach. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at "You realize there's a government directive stating that there is no such thing as a flying saucer?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 9:53:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 09:53:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2732737B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA05694 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA28708 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:48:44 PST." Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:50 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , "SteveB" wri tes: >With commercial software (well at least the places I worked) nothing >could go out the door without a complete QA cycle performed on it. Yes. This is why the open systems have "releases" every so often; a release has been run through something more like a QA cycle. The QA cycle is where the naive fools run "-current" believing it will have "new features". :) >Even the smallest of bug fixes couldn't be released without a QA >cycle. A full QA cycle was time consuming and expensive, so fixes sat >until there was a stack of them to QA'd as a group or they had to wait >until next upgrade. That way we knew state of the product. Yes, the >state of the product would include known bugs. The key was a known bug >and a known documented bug was as valuable as a fix. Sure a bug is >bad, but if it is documented you don't waste trying to make something >work that is known to be broke. But you can't *do* anything. Imagine a known bug "doesn't run on Pentium or later systems". That's pretty much totally crippling now. The important point is that you get the choice. You can run a stable release, with known bugs, or you can run slightly less tested code which fixes them. >So who is testing these fixes in open source world? Just seeing if >the problem at hand is gone isn't real testing, even claiming >thousands of people are now using it isn't enough. There can still be >lurking potentially data destroying bugs lurking. Yes. But that's just as true of a full QA cycle. Safety, in software, is an analogue signal, not a digital one. My experience (and I admit, I'm mostly from a NetBSD background) is that -current releases are dramatically more reliable, and less buggy, than commercial software. Testing, alone, does not catch bugs. *Analysis* does, and one of the things the open source community shines at is having a fix *analyzed* by a number of people. >In the open source >world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD >test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but >needs to be done. I don't know about the "official" process, but I will tell you that I'd rather have my life depend on FreeBSD-current than on Windows NT, despite the "QA cycle". There are many ways to do effective QA. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 10:23:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 10:23:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D7837B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBLIMm778734; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:22:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:22:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012211822.eBLIMm778734@earth.backplane.com> To: Dennis Cc: marcov@stack.nl (Marco van de Voort), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :If you want freebsd to remain a cult OS for hackers you are correct. : FreeBSD hasn't been a cult OS in a very long time, Dennis. You need to open your eyes a little more. The OSS world has changed in the last few years. :Reverse engineering is a myth. The result is so inferior to high-level :language source code as to not be a concern, plus its illegal so it cant be :marketed. Reverse engineering is very legal, and it is hardly a myth, nor is the result necessarily inferior. What is inferior are the thousands of commercial products that don't follow their own specs and the hundreds of chipsets that contain serious hardware bugs that the manufacturers don't bother to fix that we have to add hacks to support. What you are doing is using a few bad apples as an excuse to try to bulldoze the orchard. You shouldn't be surprised when people scoff at the attempt. Nobody is beholden to you... serious commercial enterprises which use FreeBSD also support its development and stay on top of the areas which they feel are important to them. Take Yahoo for example. If you are serious about FreeBSD and you want things handed to you on a platter, then the problem here is your own attitude. There is a cost to technology that goes far beyond the number of dollars you ring up on the register. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 10:25:55 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 10:25:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.ovis.net (ns1.ovis.net [207.0.147.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24DA37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ovis.net (s1.pm5.ovis.net [207.0.147.68]) by ns1.ovis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16419; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:25:33 -0500 Message-ID: <3A424C45.441391D3@ovis.net> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:30:30 -0500 From: Steve Kudlak Reply-To: chromexa@ovis.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD ezn/58/n (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SteveB Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SteveB wrote: > Here's the thing about open software that still concerns me. My > background is with the major software development tools companies, so > that is my point of reference. It is great that code is available and > fixes are made and pushed out, but who is doing real testing of these > fixes. Sure the obvious problem is fixed, but what other problems has > it uncovered, what side effect has it created, and how about > compatibility with other software or drivers in this case. > > With commercial software (well at least the places I worked) nothing > could go out the door without a complete QA cycle performed on it. > Even the smallest of bug fixes couldn't be released without a QA > cycle. A full QA cycle was time consuming and expensive, so fixes sat > until there was a stack of them to QA'd as a group or they had to wait > until next upgrade. That way we knew state of the product. Yes, the > state of the product would include known bugs. The key was a known bug > and a known documented bug was as valuable as a fix. Sure a bug is > bad, but if it is documented you don't waste trying to make something > work that is known to be broke. > > So who is testing these fixes in open source world? Just seeing if > the problem at hand is gone isn't real testing, even claiming > thousands of people are now using it isn't enough. There can still be > lurking potentially data destroying bugs lurking. In the open source > world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD > test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but > needs to be done. > > Steve B. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: wes@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:wes@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > > Wes Peters > > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:28 AM > > To: Michael C . Wu > > Cc: Dennis; Boris; Murray Stokely; freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, > > Solaris, and > > NT) > > > > > > "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 19, 2000 at 11:43:17AM -0500, Dennis scribbled: > > > | > > > | case and point: How many of us are sitting on our hands > > waiting for DG to > > > | have time to fix the latest snafu in the if_fxp driver? > > You cant blame him > > > | for having a job and earning a living, but the fact is > > that only he has > > > | enough experience with the part to do the job. We all > > have source, but who > > > | wants to spend a couple of weeks learning the > > intricacies of a very complex > > > | part to fix what amounts to a very small bug? > > > > > > Many of us do. > > > > I, in fact, once did. It was a great learning opportunity > > for me and only a > > minor pain in the butt for DG. I collected data and > > learned where the driver > > hung, he realized almost immediately what was causing the > > problem and sent me > > a quick pointer to aonther driver that already had the same > > problem sovled, > > and it took me another few minutes to isolate the code, > > test, and provide a > > patch. > > > > It is a shame how many think they cannot be of help in a > > situation like this, > > when in reality they can be extremely helpful. One of the > > most important > > skills you can learn and polish as an open source > > contributor is to write > > good bug reports or descriptions. Instead of saying "your > > driver don't work > > with my xyz123 rev A-11 card", say "the card initialization > > enters the loop > > in xyz123.c at line 413 (rev 1.4.2.27) and never returns; > > if I change to the > > to exit after 1 million tries, the system boots but the the > > xyz123 device > > isn't in the dmesg." Then include the full dmesg and > > perhaps your kernel > > config if that might have something to do with it. > > > > You'd be astonished just how helpful you CAN be, simply by > > tracking down an > > appropriate routine, adding a few printfs, and isolating > > where the problem > > is occurring. > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters > > Softweyr LLC > > wes@softweyr.com > > http://softweyr.com/ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message Please tell me this again. My experience lots of bugs go out the door. Finding them is not easy. Some had dangerous secuiry flaws missed until one playing around with logs a lot and tries all sort of strange things somethings one ins't supposed to. One had an FTP secuirty flaw allowing multiple retests of password. That and a good dirctionary attack and one could drive the proverbial mack truck through. The Machine I trested had a good easy to remember but mixed langauage pawword so multiple attacks via dictionary showed in the log as about 500 attempts at root login w/ eventual failure. If the password tried on a dummy account (say Jay Random) with the Japanese Password "Shashin" (meaning photograph showed up surprisingly after 1111 tests. Common Error such as girls or boys names were like 10 tries at most and many passed the "logging in drunk" test of 45 successive attempts. Those was on a well distributed Commercial Production that had supposedky c-2 Security. It seems to me that from what I have seen FREEBDS and Linux performed better than tthis. Thanks for listening to my verbosity... Have Fun, Sends Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 11: 3:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:03:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gate.trident-uk.co.uk (mail.trident-uk.co.uk [195.166.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B7D37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.207.93.139] by gate.trident-uk.co.uk for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org id SAA09551; Thu Dec 21 18:51:44 2000 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:57:20 +0000 Subject: Pentium 4 Message-ID: <20001221185720.E451@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Balsa 1.0.0 Lines: 19 To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org From: Jamie Heckford Reply-To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? -- Jamie Heckford Chief Network Engineer Psi-Domain - Innovative Linux Solutions. Ask Us How. ===================================== email: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk web: http://www.psi-domain.co.uk/ tel: +44 (0)1737 789 246 fax: +44 (0)1737 789 245 mobile: +44 (0)7779 646 529 ===================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 11:12: 9 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:12:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3121137B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001221191205.ZCFX20559.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@laptop.baldwin.cx>; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:12:05 -0800 Content-Length: 460 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20001221185720.E451@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:12:11 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Jamie Heckford Subject: RE: Pentium 4 Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 21-Dec-00 Jamie Heckford wrote: > Hi, > > Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? Yes. > If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? No. The p5-4 is just a 686 AFAIK: { "Pentium 4", CPUCLASS_686 }, /* CPU_P4 */ -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 11:51:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:51:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from marlborough.cnchost.com (marlborough.concentric.net [207.155.248.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D0137B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by marlborough.cnchost.com id OAA25737; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:51:12 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: Subject: RE: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:04 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: seebs@plethora.net [mailto:seebs@plethora.net] > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 9:54 AM > To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs > Linux, Solaris, > and NT) > > >In the open source > >world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD > >test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but > >needs to be done. > > I don't know about the "official" process, but I will tell > you that I'd > rather have my life depend on FreeBSD-current than on > Windows NT, despite > the "QA cycle". > > There are many ways to do effective QA. > > -s > It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official releases went through. Also volunteering to QA would be a good training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to communicate with developers. Steve B. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 11:53:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 11:53:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B578B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA06577 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:53:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA01714 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:53:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012211953.NAA01714@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:53:04 PST." Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:53:24 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , "SteveB" wri tes: >It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the >enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official >releases went through. There might be; I haven't looked. I am pretty happy with the results of whatever's being done now, so maybe the right thing to do is document it. ;) >Also volunteering to QA would be a good >training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to >communicate with developers. True. One of the nice things about the BSD's is that, while anyone can develop code and contribute it, there's a certain amount of review it has to pass before it's actually *USED*. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 12:15: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 12:14:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF3D37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBLKEfh12072; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:14:41 -0700 Message-Id: <200012212014.eBLKEfh12072@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: "SteveB" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:48:44 PST." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12068.977429681.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:14:41 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , admin@bsdfan .cncdsl.com writes: >Here's the thing about open software that still concerns me. My >background is with the major software development tools companies, so >that is my point of reference. It is great that code is available and >fixes are made and pushed out, but who is doing real testing of these >fixes. Sure the obvious problem is fixed, but what other problems has >it uncovered, what side effect has it created, and how about >compatibility with other software or drivers in this case. > >With commercial software (well at least the places I worked) nothing >could go out the door without a complete QA cycle performed on it. In a past life, I did half the design and implementation of the software tracking calls and letting the billing software know about them on a CDMA cellular base station. For hardware, we used machines from the biggest workstation vendor with a three letter name, running the latest production release of their Unix. Before booting the putz from our team who'd crippled our software with threads and excised the damage he'd done, we regularly dumped the machines out to the ROM monitor. I know people who work in several operating systems groups at that company, know a bit about their quality control process, and know that it was insufficient. I've yet to encounter a bug of that severity in any released version of free software (about the worst which wasn't hardware related is the FreeBSD Tulip driver not working correctly in full-duplex 100baseT mode). >So who is testing these fixes in open source world? Cygnus is/was doing automated regression testing on GCC. >Just seeing if >the problem at hand is gone isn't real testing, even claiming >thousands of people are now using it isn't enough. In theory, a standard suite of white and black box tests should be superior. Given inumerable bad experiences with Adobe, IBM, HP, Microsoft, Sun and other smaller companies, in practice it doesn't seem to work any better than the million-monkeys approach. >QA is unglamorous work, but needs to be done. Does this mean you're volunteering? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 12:16:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 12:16:32 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from netau1.alcanet.com.au (ntp.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5538137B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au (mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au [139.188.23.1]) by netau1.alcanet.com.au (8.9.3 (PHNE_18979)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04997; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:15:48 +1100 (EDT) Received: from gsmx07.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.2-32 #37641) with ESMTP id <01JXZVUGQ4VKEMWOQE@cim.alcatel.com.au>; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:15:54 +1100 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsmx07.alcatel.com.au (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBLKFj076929; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:15:45 +1100 (EST envelope-from jeremyp) Content-return: prohibited Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:15:45 +1100 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: LINT vs. ipcs In-reply-to: ; from owner-freebsd-hackers-digest@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 10:23:34AM -0800 To: float@firedrake.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20001222071545.V54775@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: Sender: jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:05:58 +0000, void wrote" >LINT and the ipcs command seem to disagree on some points, like the >meaning of shmall (bytes vs. pages). In all such cases, the source code is the ultimate reference. > options SHMALL=1025 # max amount of shared memory (bytes) > vs. > shmall: 1024 (max amount of shared memory in pages) SHMALL is in pages. The comment in LINT is incorrect (this has been corrected in -CURRENT). >Also, some values are very different: I'm not sure that the values in LINT are supposed to reflect the default values in the system. ipcs will report the actual values. The default values can be found in /sys/kern/sysv_{shm,sem}.c >What I really want to know is, what do all these LINT variables mean? There is not a great deal of documentation about them in FreeBSD - only 1-line descriptions in and , as well as the source code mentioned above. In some cases, the explanations have been expanded in NOTES (the replacement for LINT) in -CURRENT. I've expanded the semop(2) and semctl(2) man pages in kern/12014. If you have access to other systems, try the Intro(2) man page on any System V OS (eg Solaris). > I have a user who needs more semaphores and shm segments >configured, and I want to make sure I tune the right ones. SysV semaphores are allocated in groups, where each group can contain multiple semaphores. SEMMNI defines the (system wide) number of semaphore groups and SEMMNS defines the (system wide) total number of semaphores in all groups. SEMMSL is a per-uid limit on the number of semaphores. SHMMNI defines the system-wide limit on shm segments and SHMSEG defines the per-process limit on shm segments. Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 12:38:36 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 12:38:33 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from illustrious.cnchost.com (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46C9337B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by illustrious.cnchost.com id PAA14782; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:38:31 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: Subject: RE: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:40:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: <200012212014.eBLKEfh12072@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: Drew Eckhardt [mailto:drew@PoohSticks.ORG] > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:15 PM > To: SteveB > Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs > Linux, Solaris, > and NT) > > > In message > , admin@bsdfan > .cncdsl.com writes: > > >QA is unglamorous work, but needs to be done. > > Does this mean you're volunteering? > > I don't have a lot of time, but I would volunteer if there was a QA project. I think it would be a good learning experience. Steve B. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 12:44:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 12:44:23 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from puck.nether.net (puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD9637B404 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from someone claiming to be puck (gdm@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by puck.nether.net (8.11.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id eBLKiLr28836 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:44:21 -0500 (envelope-from gdm@puck.nether.net) Message-Id: <200012212044.eBLKiLr28836@puck.nether.net> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: problems in pcm driver Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:44:17 -0500 From: "Gian-Paolo D. Musumeci" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hackers, I am trying to sort out some issues with the newpcm driver, and before I go traipsing around the source base I thought I should ask whether anyone has had any luck resolving this (no sense reinventing the wheel). I have a CS461x (which apparently is a 4614, 4622, or 4624) sound chip. In the kernel config, I specify 'device pcm' and 'device csa': I have tried many permutations configurationwise, probably too many to list. Playing an MP3 file pauses for a few moments, throws three "pcm0: play interrupt timeout, channel dead" errors, and on subsequent attempts, /dev/dsp is locked. My development platform is a ThinkPad 570E. I have built 4.2-RELEASE, 4.2-STABLE, and 5.0-CURRENT (as of last night), and the problem exists on all platforms. Just wanted to see whether anyone else was working on this problem, or had a solution to it, before I started to seriously take a look at it. Cheers, /gdm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 13: 4:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 13:04:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A7B37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBLLFDj01783; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:15:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012212115.eBLLFDj01783@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium 4 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:57:20 GMT." <20001221185720.E451@freefire.psi-domain.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:15:13 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? We've always run on the P4. > If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? No, it's still a 686. -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 13:28:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 13:28:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from 2711.dynacom.net (2711.dynacom.net [206.107.213.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00BFE37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from urx.com (dsl1-160.dynacom.net [206.159.132.160]) by 2711.dynacom.net (Build 101 8.9.3/NT-8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00692; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:28:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3A42760F.B25BCBAA@urx.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:28:47 -0800 From: Kent Stewart Reply-To: kstewart@urx.com Organization: Dynacom X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SteveB Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SteveB wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Drew Eckhardt [mailto:drew@PoohSticks.ORG] > > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:15 PM > > To: SteveB > > Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs > > Linux, Solaris, > > and NT) > > > > > > In message > > , admin@bsdfan > > .cncdsl.com writes: > > > > >QA is unglamorous work, but needs to be done. > > > > Does this mean you're volunteering? > > > > > I don't have a lot of time, but I would volunteer if there was a QA > project. I think it would be a good learning experience. One of the things I have been doing it cycling through 4 systems upgrading the userland and kernel. I have a script setup such that I capture everything from the cvsup log to build and installs. During the transition between 4.1.1-stable and 4.2-stable, one of this systems was updated everyday. It isn't a QA cycle that I experienced in the commercial world associated with the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission but it did insure that my setups work. If someone popps up on -stable and says that the "Buildworld is failing" for 4-stable, it is really easy to fire off that script and find out if it is. I have one running at this time. Kent > > Steve B. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Kent Stewart Richland, WA mailto:kbstew99@hotmail.com http://kstewart.urx.com/kstewart/index.html FreeBSD News http://daily.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 13:57:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 13:57:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.dellroad.org (adsl-63-194-81-26.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.194.81.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A9C37B400; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from curve.dellroad.org (curve.dellroad.org [10.1.1.30]) by InterJet.dellroad.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA37433; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from archie@localhost) by curve.dellroad.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBLLvAU78207; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200012212157.eBLLvAU78207@curve.dellroad.org> Subject: Re: New netgraph features? In-Reply-To: <20001220161908.3866.qmail@nwcst288.netaddress.usa.net> "from John Smith at Dec 20, 2000 09:19:08 am" To: John Smith Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Smith writes: > Well, may be I didn't said exactly what I wanted to. > If we use say, ksocket nodes as a tunnel, we will > transfer the data - ok, but what about metadata? > May be I should say 'to connect two netgraphs'? > May be this is a lost cause, but that's why I'm asking. Yes, there would need to be some extra stuff. Here are some quick possibilities.. - We'd need to enhace the definition of a netgraph address to include, say, an IP address, eg.: $ ngctl msg 192.168.1.12:foo: blah blah - Encode control messsages in their ASCII forms for transit across the network - Pick a well known UDP port to be used for netgraph messages and data packets - Create a node type that could listen on this port (using ng_ksocket) and do the required encoding/decoding. -Archie __________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Packet Design * http://www.packetdesign.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 13:59: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 13:59:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.va.home.com (ha1.rdc1.va.home.com [24.2.32.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F7E37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx ([24.6.244.187]) by mail.rdc1.va.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001221215857.BOON20559.mail.rdc1.va.home.com@laptop.baldwin.cx>; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:58:57 -0800 Content-Length: 918 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: SteveB Subject: RE: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, a Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 21-Dec-00 SteveB wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Drew Eckhardt [mailto:drew@PoohSticks.ORG] >> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 12:15 PM >> To: SteveB >> Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs >> Linux, Solaris, >> and NT) >> >> >> In message >> , admin@bsdfan >> .cncdsl.com writes: >> >> >QA is unglamorous work, but needs to be done. >> >> Does this mean you're volunteering? >> >> > I don't have a lot of time, but I would volunteer if there was a QA > project. I think it would be a good learning experience. Subscribe to the freebsd-qa@FreeBSD.org mailing list and make some noise. :) > Steve B. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 14:27:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 14:27:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [169.237.7.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BEB537B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (Ipittythefoolthattrustsident@trang.nuxi.com [209.152.133.57]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21533; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:27:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBLMRc975896; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 14:27:37 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: SteveB Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Message-ID: <20001221142737.A75565@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: nobody@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200012212014.eBLKEfh12072@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from admin@bsdfan.cncdsl.com on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:40:22PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: obrien@NUXI.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:40:22PM -0800, SteveB wrote: > I don't have a lot of time, but I would volunteer if there was a QA > project. Good QA takes time. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) GNU is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 15:37:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 15:37:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gizmo.internode.com.au (gizmo.internode.com.au [192.83.231.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A8337B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:37:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from newton@localhost) by gizmo.internode.com.au (8.11.0/8.9.3) id eBLNZ4845669; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:05:04 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from newton) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:05:03 +1030 From: Mark Newton To: Peter Seebach Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Message-ID: <20001222100503.B45529@internode.com.au> References: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> X-PGP-Key: http://www.on.net/~newton/pgpkey.txt Sender: newton@gizmo.internode.com.au Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 11:53:50AM -0600, Peter Seebach wrote: > In message , "SteveB" writes: > >In the open source > >world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD > >test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but > >needs to be done. > > I don't know about the "official" process, but I will tell you that I'd > rather have my life depend on FreeBSD-current than on Windows NT, despite > the "QA cycle". > There are many ways to do effective QA. Yup. I think the important point here is that the formal QA cycle is a means to an end, but it's not the only way to achieve that end. I get concerned that those who point to a lack of a QA cycle in open source software are missing the point entirely: They're focussing on the 'process' they're familiar with so much that they don't seem to acknowledge that alternative approaches can demonstrate similar results. At the end of the day, the track record of major open-source projects speaks for itself: Yes, there are bugs, but there are bugs in commercial software which is shaped and bounded by QA procedures as well. Overall, though, I'd hazard a guess that open-source software is generally more reliable (it is in my experience, anyway). - mark -- Mark Newton Email: newton@internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton@atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82232999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 15:56:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 15:56:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from etinc.com (et-gw.etinc.com [207.252.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91AC137B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbsys.etinc.com (dbsys.etinc.com [207.252.1.18]) by etinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA84191; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:59:16 GMT (envelope-from dennis@etinc.com) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com> X-Sender: dennis@mail.etinc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:00:55 -0500 To: Matt Dillon From: Dennis Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200012211822.eBLIMm778734@earth.backplane.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:22 PM 12/21/2000, Matt Dillon wrote: >:If you want freebsd to remain a cult OS for hackers you are correct. >: > > FreeBSD hasn't been a cult OS in a very long time, Dennis. You need to > open your eyes a little more. The OSS world has changed in the last > few years. Yes but most commercial uses take advantage of the binary distribution capability of the BSD license AFTER they've poured their corporate dollars into enhancements. With linux you have to give your work away, making it much less useful. >:Reverse engineering is a myth. The result is so inferior to high-level >:language source code as to not be a concern, plus its illegal so it cant be >:marketed. > > Reverse engineering is very legal, and it is hardly a myth, nor > is the result necessarily inferior. What is inferior are the thousands > of commercial products that don't follow their own specs and the hundreds > of chipsets that contain serious hardware bugs that the manufacturers > don't bother to fix that we have to add hacks to support. > > What you are doing is using a few bad apples as an excuse to try to > bulldoze the orchard. No, the original writer was trying to use a very general argument about the absolute uselessness of binary code, which is disgustingly wrong. Im sure you dont disagree. Your argument is sound only if the manufacturer doesnt implement those "fixes" in their binary drivers, which they usually do. Its also more likely that they will use the correct workarounds and will know about them before they bite end users in the arse, which is usually not the case with "free" drivers typically found in free OSs. the previous writer used "objdump" as an example of reverse engineering software, the marketing of which would be illegal. Certainly you can figure out how something works and write an original driver for it, but thats not really reverse engineering to me. its still original code. Dennis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 16:18: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 16:17:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from gw.gbch.net (gw.gbch.net [203.24.22.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7588637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 91630 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Dec 2000 10:17:44 +1000 X-Posted-By: GBA-Post 2.07 04-Dec-2000 X-URL: http://www.gbch.net X-Image-URL: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/img/gjb-auug048.gif X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5A91 6942 8CEA 9DAB B95B C249 1CE1 493B 2B5A CE30 X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.gbch.net/gjb/gjb-pgpkey.asc Message-Id: Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:17:44 +1000 From: Greg Black To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> <20001222100503.B45529@internode.com.au> In-reply-to: <20001222100503.B45529@internode.com.au> of Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:05:03 +1030 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Newton wrote: > I get concerned that those who point to a lack of a QA cycle in open > source software are missing the point entirely: They're focussing on > the 'process' they're familiar with so much that they don't seem to > acknowledge that alternative approaches can demonstrate similar results. We open source zealots "know" this, but still it would nice to be able to point to some empirical data -- has anybody done a PhD thesis on it? If not, what are all the students waiting for? > At the end of the day, the track record of major open-source projects > speaks for itself: Yes, there are bugs, but there are bugs in commercial > software which is shaped and bounded by QA procedures as well. Overall, > though, I'd hazard a guess that open-source software is generally more > reliable (it is in my experience, anyway). Again, that's the common experience, but it's easier to have the experience you expect when you're not constrained by facts. I'd love to see some good statistics. After all, open source people didn't get the chance to have the Ariane-5 disaster, so our ability to point to an empty set of such examples doesn't really prove anything. I'm a True Believer in the open source / free software gospel, but it would be easier to win these arguments if only we had the data. -- Greg Black ech`echo xiun | tr nu oc | sed 'sx\([sx]\)\([xoi]\)xo un\2\1 is xg'`ol To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 16:21:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 16:21:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E88537B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBM0Luh12696 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:21:56 -0700 Message-Id: <200012220021.eBM0Luh12696@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:00:55 EST." <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <12692.977444515.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:21:55 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com>, dennis@etinc.co m writes: >Yes but most commercial uses take advantage of the binary distribution >capability of the BSD license AFTER they've poured their corporate dollars >into enhancements. With linux you have to give your work away, making it >much less useful. To be pedantic, you only need to provide source for works derived from GPL'd software which in this case means the kernel propper. User land applications and device drivers may be shipped in binary-only form because they are separate works, even when distributed in aggregation with GPL'd software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 16:30:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 16:30:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (placeholder-dcat-1076843399.broadbandoffice.net [64.47.83.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D461637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.1/8.9.3) id eBM0TxE82553; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:29:59 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200012220029.eBM0TxE82553@earth.backplane.com> To: Dennis Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :No, the original writer was trying to use a very general argument about the :absolute uselessness of binary code, which is disgustingly wrong. Im sure :you dont disagree. Your argument is sound only if the manufacturer doesnt :implement those "fixes" in their binary drivers, which they usually do. Its :also more likely that they will use the correct workarounds and will know :about them before they bite end users in the arse, which is usually not the :case with "free" drivers typically found in free OSs. : :the previous writer used "objdump" as an example of reverse engineering :software, the marketing of which would be illegal. Certainly you can figure :out how something works and write an original driver for it, but thats not :really reverse engineering to me. its still original code. : :Dennis You are correct about objdump ... that isn't reverse engineering. But while I generally agree that there is nothing wrong with binaries, I make a big distinction between user-level binaries and kernel-level modules. I think user-level binaries are perfectly acceptable, but I have strong reservations in regards to kernel-level binaries. Kernels change all the time... there is no 'API' per-say... at least nothing like the relatively stable syscall interface user-level binaries enjoy. And as has been pointed out time and time again, the vast majority of commercial device driver writers don't know jack about the OS they are writing for and proceed to do all sorts of illegal things in the driver code. In that respect, I personally will not run anything inside my kernel that I don't have source for. Now, I don't run frame-relay or T1's into FreeBSD boxes, so I'm not commenting on your software specifically. I'm commenting in general. The problem is not only support, but also protection against obsolescence. Companies upgrade their products, companies go out of business, companies stop supporting products. Without source you can wind up S.O.L. with a binary-only device driver. It's just too risky for me. Just look at all the poor windows bozos who are forced to throw away half their software every time they upgrade to a new version of Windows when Microsoft stops supporting the older releases. That is not a cycle I will ever willingly get into. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 16:35:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 16:35:13 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF7C37B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from kairo-52.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.50.116] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 149GAu-0004vI-00; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:35:09 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A42A189.45D56AA8@elischer.org> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 16:34:17 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Black Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: <200012211753.LAA28708@guild.plethora.net> <20001222100503.B45529@internode.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Black wrote: > > Mark Newton wrote: > > > I get concerned that those who point to a lack of a QA cycle in open > > source software are missing the point entirely: They're focussing on > > the 'process' they're familiar with so much that they don't seem to > > acknowledge that alternative approaches can demonstrate similar results. > > We open source zealots "know" this, but still it would nice to > be able to point to some empirical data -- has anybody done a > PhD thesis on it? If not, what are all the students waiting > for? opensource quality depends on 2 things: 1/ the quality of teh original instigators. A bad design takes a lot to fix: 2/ the popularity of the project.. (to some extent) (and with who). The number of talented people with high enough interest needs to be greater than 1 and there are limits to how many such people there are.. (2 talented people with not a lot of time is probably less than 1 talented person with time) -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 17:18:21 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:18:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r9.bfm.org [216.127.220.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1F637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA00306 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:17:10 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:16:38 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Trouble with lseek Message-ID: <20001221191638.A284@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am trying to determine the size of a file passed as a command line argument. I am using SYS_lseek. Here is the code up to that point: _start: pop eax ; argc pop eax ; program name pop ecx ; file to convert jecxz usage pop eax or eax, eax ; Too many arguments? jne usage ; Open the file push dword O_RDWR push ecx sys.open jc cantopen mov ebp, eax ; Save fd ; Find file size sub eax, eax push dword SEEK_END push eax push eax ; 0 bytes from eof push ebp ; fd sys.lseek jc facerr Unfortunately, the SYS_lseek returns an error (carry is set, EAX=0x16=ESPIPE). Why? I am not creating any pipes there. The fd returned by the SYS_open is 3, as expected, so why does SYS_lseek fail? The sys.lseek macro does a mov eax, 199 / call kernel.function, where kernel.function is int 80h / ret. Adam -- Can you imagine the silence if everyone said only what he knows! -- Karel Èapek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 17:42:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:42:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.149.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 526B737B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16691 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 01:42:15 -0000 Received: from jhs.muc.de (193.149.49.84) by slarti.muc.de with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 01:42:15 -0000 Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBM1iBp10489; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:44:11 GMT (envelope-from jhs@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200012220144.eBM1iBp10489@jhs.muc.de> To: Brooks Davis Cc: Wes Peters , Mike Nowlin , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jhs@jhs.muc.de Subject: Re: keeping lots of systems all the same... In-Reply-To: Message from Brooks Davis of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:43:01 PST." <20001221094301.C1391@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:44:11 +0100 From: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No one I noticed yet mentioned ports/net/rsync as an alternative to src/usr.bin/rdist & ports/net/rdist6 for "keeping lots of systems all the same" but as I too use rdist I can't tell more on rsync. BTW I use rdist for maintaing - site wide common trees in a /site/ tree of etc usr overlay stuff reached from real /etc & /usr trees via relative (no rooted) sym links - my off site web directories - my laptop PS make damn sure you always back up the right way, easily said, but easy to get wrong, especially with a cron driven rdist, that can zap your laptop or tower in the wrong direction. EG on return from a business trip a cron driven backup of tower to laptop is a disaster ;-) Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4200 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 17:42:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:42:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.149.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E29337B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16701 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 01:42:19 -0000 Received: from jhs.muc.de (193.149.49.84) by slarti.muc.de with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 01:42:19 -0000 Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBM1PYp10444; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:25:34 GMT (envelope-from jhs@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200012220125.eBM1PYp10444@jhs.muc.de> To: Matt Dillon Cc: Dennis , marcov@stack.nl (Marco van de Voort), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Message from Matt Dillon of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:22:48 PST." <200012211822.eBLIMm778734@earth.backplane.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:25:34 +0100 From: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon wrote: > :If you want freebsd to remain a cult OS for hackers you are correct. > FreeBSD hasn't been a cult OS in a very long time, Dennis. You need to > open your eyes a little more. The OSS world has changed in the last > few years. > :Reverse engineering is a myth. The result is so inferior to high-level > :language source code as to not be a concern, plus its illegal so it cant be > :marketed. > Reverse engineering is very legal, and it is hardly a myth, nor > .............. > -Matt Examiners at the European Patent Office http://www.epo.org tell me: Reverse engineering is legal in Europe, Illegal in USA. I never asked about Canada, Japan, Oz, Russia etc :-) ie laws vary, you may actually both be right, it's legal & illegal, depending where. Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4200 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 17:42:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 17:42:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.149.48.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38E6937B698 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 17:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16712 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 01:42:21 -0000 Received: from jhs.muc.de (193.149.49.84) by slarti.muc.de with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 01:42:21 -0000 Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBM1KVp10419; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:20:31 GMT (envelope-from jhs@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200012220120.eBM1KVp10419@jhs.muc.de> To: Peter Mutsaers Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Hartmut Pilch" Subject: Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Message from Peter Mutsaers of "21 Dec 2000 15:04:11 +0100." <87itod98h0.fsf@mutsaers.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:20:31 +0100 From: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Mutsaers wrote: > >> "babkin" == babkin writes: > babkin> Sorry for a stupid question but why would not they patent > babkin> this protocol then ? For example, PostScript is patented > babkin> by Adobe and the only reason everyone is able to use it is > babkin> that Adobe had explicitly granted this right to the > babkin> public. > > I don't think this is possible worldwide. Not sure, there's WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation ?), (http://www.wipo.org maybe?) but not sure how it works. > In Europe, software > patents do not exist and cannot be granted. Wrong ! Sadly ! That's the old simple theoretical world I learnt about back in University in the late 70's, it changed & got worse ... lawyers encroached, & the EPO expanded like crazy ! The key words "As Such" in regard to software patents bring an ironic smile to the lips of patent examiners in the field. ( & I'm being precise here, about the smile, I lunch often with examiners at http:/www.epo.org = European Patent Office, Nice food, nice people, shame about the patents ! They're clever people & personal friends, & I do my small bit to persuade them to be careful of the effects of what they grant, but the patent system is really sick, change needs to come from top down, not bottom up). > There was an attempt to > change this lately, but (luckily) it failed for the time being. Not quite. From inside authoritative source at EPO, I understand there was an attempt by the patent lawyers to encroach further on our industry, & it failed, or was put into abeyance. (The door IMO is still plenty wide enough for many patent vampire professionals to make a good living.) To find out more about recent change, or lack of change, go look for decisions of the recent week a half "Diplomatic Conference" in EPO, Munich Germany. 75% of the EPO articles were up for review, they didn't get through it all. > The > European Commision was convinced by open source advocates that > software patents are bad. Not as far as I know, no yet, would be nice if they were so persuaded though, that effort is ongoing & really wants us BSD folk to join in, Linux has waved the flag so far. > At least it made them think twice and > postpone the process. The situation is bad, complex, & hard to read about if you get too deep (the 3 official languages of the European Patent Office are English German & French), & I don't enjoy reading legal stuff in `foreign' :-) > The only thing you can protect is the implementation (the program, > in this case to read/write the protocol) under copyright. One can patent methodolgies I believe, a trojan horse for software patents. I wish you were right, but you'r not, your out of date & wrong, the situation has got a lot worse than people think. I wrote a web page on software patents: http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/txt/patents.html http://www.muc.de/~jhs/txt/patents.html The main value of the page is perhaps the URLS it contains to far more authoritative sites, I'm afraid my own text is perhaps half baked. but I'd really encourage all BSD people who care about software patents & how they are damaging free software etc, to bounce through URLs on my page, & go on to far better sites such as http://www.ffii.org http://www.freepatents.org http://petition.eurolinux.org http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html http://swpat.ffii.org/vreji/pikta = Horror Gallery of Software Patents I have CC'd "Hartmut Pilch" who is _far_ better informed about patents than I am, & he can correct me, & take the discussion further, he uses Linux himself I believe, but is open to BSD, & is really keen to get some of us BSD people on board with the Linux majority in the anti software patent movement. "Hartmut Pilch" would also be delighted to receive an official statement from the BSD bodies, so if anyone reading is in position to get any of core@[free/net/open]bsd.org to send him a statement, please help ! Again, please, before anyone engage me in argument, & no disrespect to anyone intended, but if you'r just a programmer, & think you know more than me about patents, you probably don't, so save your time, some of that knowledge from all those lunches with EPO examiners has finally rubbed off on me (when we weren't talking skiing or whatever else), & I find the whole thing very complex, & depressing. The people who could easily correct me are Hartmut (fair enough no complaints there), or the patent lawyers & examiners, but that would get very legalistic & complex, & personally I'd prefer the patent lawyers were all on a one way rocket to mars (Ref telephone sanitisers in Hitchhikers guide to the Universe, a BBC Radio series a while back). So here's hoping folk engage the much better informed & more authoritative "Hartmut Pilch" on the subject of software patents, & let me make a futile attempt to scurry back to lurker status on this issue (fat chance I guess ;-) Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4200 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 18:44:25 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 18:44:23 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ggong.baycis.com (ggong.baycis.com [209.133.107.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F68237B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ggongws ([63.150.46.69]) by ggong.baycis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA75488; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:44:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <008b01c06bc1$1aba48d0$940a000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "SteveB" , References: Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:03:23 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the > enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official > releases went through. Also volunteering to QA would be a good > training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to > communicate with developers. > > Steve B. > This is a good idea. I wouldn't mind being involved in a program like this (volunteering for QA) if something can be organized.. Gilbert > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 18:53:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 18:53:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABCF37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:53:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBM2rMe24072; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:53:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 18:53:22 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Gilbert Gong Cc: SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Message-ID: <20001221185322.E19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <008b01c06bc1$1aba48d0$940a000a@ggongws> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <008b01c06bc1$1aba48d0$940a000a@ggongws>; from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:03:23PM -0800 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Gilbert Gong [001221 18:45] wrote: > > It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the > > enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official > > releases went through. Also volunteering to QA would be a good > > training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to > > communicate with developers. > > > > Steve B. > > > > This is a good idea. I wouldn't mind being involved in a program like this > (volunteering for QA) if something can be organized.. What would extremely helpful would be a port that basically installed a bunch of utilities to stress the system into a chroot enviorment and ran a regression suite doing things like faking a large news server, serving a lot of http content etc. It would be helpful if the port was two parts, one for the test box and one as a client for the test box. Just some ideas for direction if you guys want to pick up the ball here. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 19:15:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 19:15:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natmail2.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19CF37B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastion.localhost (p3EE3FFD5.dip.t-dialin.net [62.227.255.213]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA06176; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:15:21 +0100 (MET) Received: from masterpc (master [192.168.0.1]) by bastion.localhost (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBM3Fm904339; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:15:48 GMT Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:14:48 -0800 From: Boris X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.46d) Personal Reply-To: Boris X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1142989806.20001222041448@x-itec.de> To: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Cc: Peter Mutsaers , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Hartmut Pilch" Subject: Re: Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-To: <200012220120.eBM1KVp10419@jhs.muc.de> References: <200012220120.eBM1KVp10419@jhs.muc.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Julian, Thursday, December 21, 2000, 5:20:31 PM, you wrote: I really hope that software patent´s wont be possible in Europe. This would be a real problem for some of us who are not only consulting but developing, too. I remember that a lot of people try to get a patent on the lamest routines and if someadays these patents are legal, they will make money. There are a lot of people out in the world who have very good ideas for good products and they want to develop them to make money (as me, it´s my job - consulting and developing) - but without software patents. I think software patents in Europe would be very dangerous and a lot of people will get a lot of problems. We should not destroy the computer world as the same world, named reality. In "our" world, the computer-specialists are the formers and directors what will be in the feature. The most of us have the ideals to make a "better world" in digital form. A lot of people with a lot of good ideas. On the other side, there are a lot of people wo can´t be rich enough. They try to destroy everything we build over the years. The do not understand what we want to do and where we want to go. We all want to be together, a mega-big community over the world. We want to realise projects in peace and together to build the "most perfect code". We have a lot of fun with doing this. We want to learn and we want to make things better, for fun and to earn some money, too. In the last month I had a very bad dream. Someone said "Now, it is possible to have software patents about everything in the word". And a group of people went to the "digital underground". They are developing and redistributing their operating system still for free, but no one knows who is developing on it. Some of them get caught and they are arrested, because they would develop and distribute software with patented algorithms and so on and this won´t be allowed. A VERY BAD DREAM. And I know if there would really be software patents in europe, a lot of people would build a digital underground, where ideas are ideas, and where we have no restrictions. A lot of us are dreamers with a lot of visions. I really hope that this will not be destroyed by people who can´t be rich enought! I am developing since I am 12 years old. Now I am 25 and I am still developing. I won´t stop it, I love it. If routines i am using are restricted or patented, I really would ask myself for what person I am working. For me, or for someone who was a silly one and patented every silly routine. If this happens, that nearly every routine can be patented, then I really don´t know what to do. I don´t want to think that I have spent the years with learning and developing and now I would have to pay license fees for someone who was rich enough to patent some houndrets of (mostly silly) routines. Some people can´t be rich enough. They destroy everything. We developers should do everything that this won´t happen in Europe or other nations. We computer-freaks want a mega great community. Freedom. Knowledge and peace. This is the way we go. Fight against patents! -- Best regards, Boris mailto:koester@x-itec.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 20:57:59 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 20:57:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh29.bfm.org [216.127.220.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0136437B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id WAA00327 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:56:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:56:19 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trouble with lseek Message-ID: <20001221225619.A311@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Earlier I posted some asm code that was causing me trouble with lseek. I have since figured it out, and should be posting the information on my asm tutorial within a day or two. Cheers, Adam -- This signature intentionally left blank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 22:17:11 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 22:17:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C56737B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBM6H8h13242 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:17:08 -0700 Message-Id: <200012220617.eBM6H8h13242@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 02:25:34 +0100." <200012220125.eBM1PYp10444@jhs.muc.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <13238.977465827.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:17:07 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200012220125.eBM1PYp10444@jhs.muc.de>, jhs@jhs.muc.de writes: >Examiners at the European Patent Office http://www.epo.org tell me: > Reverse engineering is legal in Europe, Illegal in USA. Back in the early nineties, Nintendo sued some one in America for reverse engineering the circuit included in every cartridge and using what they learned to sell cartridges without buying the protection chip from them. Nintendo lost. If you dig deeper, I believe you'll find cases from the mainframe era with similar rulings. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 22:50:24 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 22:50:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from illustrious.cnchost.com (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AEA237B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:50:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by illustrious.cnchost.com id BAA19293; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:50:19 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: "Drew Eckhardt" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:52:11 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <200012220617.eBM6H8h13242@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. Hardware decisions in general are mirrors of software cases. Hardware reverse engineering tends to be legal. But with software they use Clean programmer, Dirty programmer. In other words you can write a program exactly like another, if you can prove you never saw the other program. If you saw the similar program you are dirty. The weird thing is your Marketing people can see the other program and tell you what to do. That's legal. Steve B. > -----Original Message----- > From: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG > [mailto:drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG]On > Behalf Of Drew Eckhardt > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 10:17 PM > To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT > > > In message <200012220125.eBM1PYp10444@jhs.muc.de>, > jhs@jhs.muc.de writes: > >Examiners at the European Patent Office http://www.epo.org tell me: > > Reverse engineering is legal in Europe, Illegal in USA. > > Back in the early nineties, Nintendo sued some one in America > for reverse engineering the circuit included in every cartridge and > using what they learned to sell cartridges without buying the > protection chip from them. > > Nintendo lost. > > If you dig deeper, I believe you'll find cases from the > mainframe era > with similar rulings. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 23:27:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 23:27:48 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE3537B402 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b ([24.0.36.170]) by femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001222072747.FNQR15927.femail6.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx443070b>; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:27:47 -0800 Message-ID: <000901c06be9$00910570$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "SteveB" , "Drew Eckhardt" , References: Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:30:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. United States Code Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201 Subsection (f) My basic interpretation of this is, if you legally own a copy of the software (firmware is software), you can legally reverse engineer the software for the purpose of achiving interoperability. Therefore, if you own a piece of hardware, and you have no driver for the hardware, or the driver provided is not acceptable, you have the right to reverse engineer the firmware in order to write your own driver, thereby achiving interoperability. According to part 3 of subsection (f) the information gathered by the person doing the reverse engineering may be shared with anyone else who wishes to use the knowledge to achive interoperability as defined in parts 1 and 4. Hence, if I write a driver from my reverse engineering to achieve interoperability between FreeBSD and the firmware in my device, I may share that driver with anyone else who plans to use it for that same purpose. This section is part of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201). a.. (f) Reverse Engineering. - (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. a.. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. a.. (3) The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section. a.. (4) For purposes of this subsection, the term ''interoperability'' means the ability of computer programs to exchange information, and of such programs mutually to use the information which has been exchanged. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Dec 21 23:42:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 21 23:42:15 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nw174.netaddress.usa.net (nw174.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 736E637B400 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 2000 23:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20125 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 2000 07:42:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20001222074211.20124.qmail@nw174.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.74 by nw174 for [213.226.6.17] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.4B.01) on Fri Dec 22 07:42:11 GMT 2000 Date: 22 Dec 00 00:42:11 MST From: John Smith To: Archie Cobbs Subject: Re: [Re: New netgraph features?] Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4B.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Archie Cobbs wrote: >John Smith writes: >> Well, may be I didn't said exactly what I wanted to. >> If we use say, ksocket nodes as a tunnel, we will >> transfer the data - ok, but what about metadata? >> May be I should say 'to connect two netgraphs'? >> May be this is a lost cause, but that's why I'm asking. > >Yes, there would need to be some extra stuff. Here are some >quick possibilities.. > >- We'd need to enhace the definition of a netgraph address > to include, say, an IP address, eg.: > > $ ngctl msg 192.168.1.12:foo: blah blah Well, I was thinking about this. I would like to share this pre-idea and to receive your opinions. I have one question here. Why should it be limited to UDP... (or whatever protocol)? Are we going to loose something, if we, say, create special node for 'netgraph tunneling' (so that it may ot may not be included into a running kernel) then connect this node to another one, which will be used for 'transport' layer. Such a node could possibly be used to encode/decode the inter-netgraph messages. Other nodes' names then should include the transport layer address. This way I think we won't get limited to one protcol... = Comments? > >- Encode control messsages in their ASCII forms for transit > across the network > >- Pick a well known UDP port to be used for netgraph messages > and data packets > >- Create a node type that could listen on this port (using ng_ksocket) > and do the required encoding/decoding. > >-Archie > >________________________________________________________________________= _ >Archie Cobbs * Packet Design * >http://www.packetdesign.= com ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 0: 5:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 00:05:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0842E37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id DAA07349; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 03:05:39 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:07:32 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <000901c06be9$00910570$aa240018@cx443070b> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Jeremiah Gowdy > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 11:30 PM > To: SteveB; Drew Eckhardt; hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT >> Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. > United States Code Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201 Subsection (f) Trouble is how a judge interprets the law for a particular case. That's where the inconsistencies come from. Steve B. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 0:10: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 00:10:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C9137B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01225; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:11:17 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:11:17 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Gilbert Gong Cc: SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) Message-ID: <20001222001117.A1067@citusc.usc.edu> References: <008b01c06bc1$1aba48d0$940a000a@ggongws> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <008b01c06bc1$1aba48d0$940a000a@ggongws>; from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu on Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:03:23PM -0800 Sender: kris@citusc.usc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 21, 2000 at 12:03:23PM -0800, Gilbert Gong wrote: > > It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the > > enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official > > releases went through. Also volunteering to QA would be a good > > training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to > > communicate with developers. > > > > Steve B. > > >=20 > This is a good idea. I wouldn't mind being involved in a program like th= is > (volunteering for QA) if something can be organized.. Join the freebsd-qa mailing list, and contribute some effort towards stress-testing parts of the system, developing regression suites, etc. A better FreeBSD release is up to you! :-) Kris --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6QwylWry0BWjoQKURAtfrAKDsZQBinew6wvkS2Yz6eh7KKYaVSACgzO8O Q7cUKy3y6zbK944HD5GHGQU= =r9Ew -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 0:43:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 00:43:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.stack.nl (vaak.stack.nl [131.155.140.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C590137B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 00:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from toad.stack.nl (toad.ipv6.stack.nl [2001:610:1108:5010:200:e8ff:fe55:346d]) by mailhost.stack.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83EDC14F15 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by toad.stack.nl (Postfix, from userid 816) id 181F596EC; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: <000901c06be9$00910570$aa240018@cx443070b> from Jeremiah Gowdy at "Dec 21, 2000 11:30:03 pm" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:24 +0100 (CET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL60 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20001222084324.181F596EC@toad.stack.nl> From: marcov@stack.nl (Marco van de Voort) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. > > United States Code Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201 Subsection (f) > > My basic interpretation of this is, if you legally own a copy of the > software (firmware is software), you can legally reverse engineer the > software for the purpose of achiving interoperability. Therefore, if you > own a piece of hardware, and you have no driver for the hardware, or the > driver provided is not acceptable, you have the right to reverse engineer > the firmware in order to write your own driver, thereby achiving > interoperability. Exactly the same in Europe, only the sharing parts are new for me. The difference seems to be: The problem is that in the US, it is legal to override this with the licensing conditions. In Europe this right is inalienable. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 1: 1:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 01:01:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (nat.entact.dk [130.227.231.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0784F37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 01:01:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBM914b69377; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:01:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trouble with lseek In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:16:38 CST." <20001221191638.A284@whizkidtech.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:01:04 +0100 Message-ID: <69375.977475664@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001221191638.A284@whizkidtech.net>, "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: >I am trying to determine the size of a file passed as a command line >argument. I am using SYS_lseek. Here is the code up to that point: You should use SYS_stat or SYS_fstat -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 4: 7:52 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 04:07:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.informatoreagrario.it (rub139.vr00.ne.interbusiness.it [194.184.240.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D373A37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from francesco.informatoreagrario.it ([192.168.50.8]) by mail.informatoreagrario.it (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37772U100L2S100) with ESMTP id AAA336; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:32:40 +0100 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20001222122708.024fdec0@192.168.50.2> X-Sender: f.zerbinati@192.168.50.2 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 12:28:06 +0100 To: f.zerbinati@informatoreagrario.it From: Francesco Zerbinati Subject: Auguri ! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_10399739==_.ALT" Sender: f.zerbinati@mail.informatoreagrario.it Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --=====================_10399739==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Buon Natale e Felice Anno Nuovo We wish you Merry Christmas and all the best for the new year ____________________________________________________ dott. Francesco Zerbinati Redazione Tecnica L'Informatore Agrario (Orticoltura, Meccanica, Informatica) Via Bencivenga-Biondani, 16 - 37133 - Verona (IT) tel. +39.045.597855 - fax +39.045.597510 e-mail: f.zerbinati@informatoreagrario.it http://www.informatoreagrario.it/ --=====================_10399739==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Buon Natale e Felice Anno Nuovo


We wish you Merry Christmas
 and all the best for the new year

____________________________________________________
             dott. Francesco Zerbinati
                 Redazione Tecnica
               L'Informatore Agrario
       (Orticoltura, Meccanica, Informatica)

 Via Bencivenga-Biondani, 16 - 37133 - Verona (IT)
     tel. +39.045.597855 - fax +39.045.597510
     e-mail: f.zerbinati@informatoreagrario.it
        http://www.informatoreagrario.it/ --=====================_10399739==_.ALT-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 4: 8: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 04:08:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3152637B698 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16925; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:07:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Sender: des@ofug.org X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "SteveB" Cc: "Drew Eckhardt" , Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Dec 2000 13:07:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: "SteveB"'s message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:52:11 -0800" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "SteveB" writes: > Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. Hardware decisions > in general are mirrors of software cases. Hardware reverse > engineering tends to be legal. But with software they use Clean > programmer, Dirty programmer. In other words you can write a program > exactly like another, if you can prove you never saw the other > program. If you saw the similar program you are dirty. AT&T (or Novell, don't remember if it was before or after the sale of USL) tried to use that argument against UCB. It was rejected. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 4:16:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 04:16:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from news.lucky.net (news.lucky.net [193.193.193.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EABC37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by news.lucky.net (8.Who.Cares/8.Who.Cares) id OGI03693 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:16:26 +0200 (envelope-from white@alkar.net) From: Alex Prohorenko To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: [q] MCSI PromDisk Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:34:51 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Alkar Teleport News Server Message-ID: <91qu4b$4r3$1@pandora.alkar.net> X-Trace: pandora.alkar.net 977337291 4963 195.248.191.65 (20 Dec 2000 18:34:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@alkar.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.4-20000803 ("Vet for the Insane") (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.5-STABLE (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello guys. I'm looking for getting in touch with somebody, who has got some experience with MCSI' PromDisk 32MB under FreeBSD. I'd like to ask some questions about it. Thank you. -- Alexander Prohorenko, Alkar Teleport To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 4:36:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 04:36:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3123637B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 04:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08213; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:36:17 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012221236.BAA08213@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: ports@freshports.org Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:36:16 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: anyone want to learn XML / work on FreshPorts2? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I plan to parse the cvs-all messages into an XML log. The first stage is to create an XML template. This template will be used by any source tree which wishes to input data into FreshPorts2. But for now, we'll concentrate on cvs-all from FreeBSD. If anyone is interested in giving this a go, we have two tasks: 1 - define the template. This sounds pretty straight forward to me. Take the fields in the log message, compare it to the data stored in the database, and create the XML document template. 2 - take the cvs-all logs and parse them into the XML format. Any takers? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.freebsddiary.org/ NZ ADSL - http://www.unixathome.org/adsl/ NZ Broadband - http://www.unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 5: 3:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 05:03:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh17.bfm.org [216.127.220.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF12637B402 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 05:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id HAA00287; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:00:33 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:00:32 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trouble with lseek Message-ID: <20001222070032.D239@whizkidtech.net> References: <20001221191638.A284@whizkidtech.net> <69375.977475664@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <69375.977475664@critter>; from phk@critter.freebsd.dk on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:01:04AM +0100 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:01:04AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >You should use SYS_stat or SYS_fstat Thanks, will do. Adam -- Roma non uno die aedificata est To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 5:31:17 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 05:31:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from kai.qix.co.uk (kai.qix.co.uk [195.149.39.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0ABD37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 05:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (aledm@localhost) by kai.qix.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05279; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:30:56 GMT (envelope-from aledm@qix.co.uk) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:30:56 +0000 (GMT) From: Aled Morris To: Julian Elischer Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Julian's World tour In-Reply-To: <3A42A189.45D56AA8@elischer.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Julian Elischer wrote: __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest v Is that map strictly correct? Or is Budapest also a suburb of Perth? Aled To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 6:33:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 06:33:45 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE91A37B402; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 06:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBMC4Yb70740; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:04:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Archie Cobbs Cc: John Smith , freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New netgraph features? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:57:10 PST." <200012212157.eBLLvAU78207@curve.dellroad.org> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:04:34 +0100 Message-ID: <70738.977486674@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I may not have caught the drift here, but if you send meta-data across the net, wouldn't some kind of authentication be needed ? Poul-Henning In message <200012212157.eBLLvAU78207@curve.dellroad.org>, Archie Cobbs writes: >John Smith writes: >> Well, may be I didn't said exactly what I wanted to. >> If we use say, ksocket nodes as a tunnel, we will >> transfer the data - ok, but what about metadata? >> May be I should say 'to connect two netgraphs'? >> May be this is a lost cause, but that's why I'm asking. > >Yes, there would need to be some extra stuff. Here are some >quick possibilities.. > >- We'd need to enhace the definition of a netgraph address > to include, say, an IP address, eg.: > > $ ngctl msg 192.168.1.12:foo: blah blah > >- Encode control messsages in their ASCII forms for transit > across the network > >- Pick a well known UDP port to be used for netgraph messages > and data packets > >- Create a node type that could listen on this port (using ng_ksocket) > and do the required encoding/decoding. > >-Archie > >__________________________________________________________________________ >Archie Cobbs * Packet Design * http://www.packetdesign.com > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 7:58:49 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 07:58:47 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mutsaers.com (dubkurdsp503.agrinet.ch [212.232.160.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5BF337B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:58:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by mutsaers.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBMFvkV12252; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:57:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from plm) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <14915.31226.80051.225553@mutsaers.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:57:46 +0100 From: Peter Mutsaers To: "Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs.muc.de" Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, "Hartmut Pilch" Subject: Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: <200012220120.eBM1KVp10419@jhs.muc.de> References: <87itod98h0.fsf@mutsaers.com> <200012220120.eBM1KVp10419@jhs.muc.de> X-Mailer: VM 6.88 under Emacs 20.7.1 Sender: plm@mutsaers.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> "Julian" =3D=3D Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs muc de writes= : >> In Europe, software >> patents do not exist and cannot be granted. Julian> Wrong ! Sadly ! That's the old simple theoretical world I Julian> learnt about back in University in the late 70's, it Julian> changed & got worse ... lawyers encroached, & the EPO Julian> expanded like crazy ! Julian> The key words "As Such" in regard to software patents Julian> bring an ironic smile to the lips of patent examiners in Julian> the field. Julian> =09( & I'm being precise here, about the smile, I lunch oft= en Julian> =09with examiners at http:/www.epo.org =3D European Patent Julian> =09Office, Nice food, nice people, shame about the patents = ! Julian> =09They're clever people & personal friends, & I do my smal= l Julian> =09bit to persuade them to be careful of the effects of wha= t Julian> =09they grant, but the patent system is really sick, change= Julian> =09needs to come from top down, not bottom up). What I have learned is that the EPO has been granting software patents for several years now, so that they are in place when and if software patents shall be allowed in the EU (probably they have nothing better to do than grant patents in advance, that are not yet lawful=3F). --=20 Peter Mutsaers | D=FCbendorf | UNIX - Live free or die plm@gmx.li | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.2-stable To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 8: 8: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 08:08:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A3EB37B402 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:08:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8888 invoked by uid 60001); 22 Dec 2000 16:07:54 -0000 Message-ID: <20001222160754.8887.qmail@nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.21 by nwcst276 for [213.226.6.17] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.4B.01) on Fri Dec 22 16:07:54 GMT 2000 Date: 22 Dec 00 09:07:54 MST From: John Smith To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Subject: Re: New netgraph features? Cc: archie@dellroad.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.4B.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >I may not have caught the drift here, but if you send meta-data >across the net, wouldn't some kind of authentication be needed? Yes, It must be. This is probably the next-in-thread request for comments/suggestions. I'm still not sure if the whole thing would be usef= ul, so, the authentication methods seem too far to me at the present time. If= you have any comments about this... I think you know what to do :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D= 1 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 8:21:33 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 08:21:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from onyx.extra.dp.ua (onyx.extra.dp.ua [195.248.182.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A1A37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:21:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (from white@localhost) by onyx.extra.dp.ua (8.10.0/8.10.0/Who.Cares) id eBMGLCq11429; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:21:12 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:21:12 +0200 From: Alexander Prohorenko To: questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.9i Organization: Extra Solutions X-Operating-System: SunOS 5.7 i86pc Sender: white@onyx.extra.dp.ua Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey. Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single 1720K image there. su-2.03# dd if=flogw-4000.bin of=/dev/rfd0.1720 dd: /dev/rfd0.1720: Input/output error 19+0 records in 18+0 records out 9216 bytes transferred in 3.377621 secs (2729 bytes/sec) Should I do anything special for this ? Thank you. -- Alexander Prohorenko, Extra Solutions http://extra.com.ua "Good day to be alive, sir" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 8:44:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 08:44:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E875C37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:44:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBMGeR536245; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:40:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <200012221640.eBMGeR536245@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: John Smith Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, archie@dellroad.org, freebsd-net@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Image-URL: http://www.transsys.com/louie/images/louie-mail.jpg From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: New netgraph features? References: <20001222160754.8887.qmail@nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "22 Dec 2000 09:07:54 MST." <20001222160754.8887.qmail@nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:40:27 -0500 Sender: louie@TransSys.COM Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >I may not have caught the drift here, but if you send meta-data > >across the net, wouldn't some kind of authentication be needed? > > Yes, It must be. This is probably the next-in-thread request for > comments/suggestions. I'm still not sure if the whole thing would be useful, > so, the authentication methods seem too far to me at the present time. If you > have any comments about this... I think you know what to do :) Assuming you can use the administrative/policy model, you can probably use IPSEC AH and get this "for free." louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 8:53: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 08:52:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C430237B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBMGqqf77392; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: fd1720 In-Reply-To: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> from Alexander Prohorenko at "Dec 22, 2000 6:21:12 pm" To: white@extra.dp.ua (Alexander Prohorenko) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:52:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hey. > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > 1720K image there. you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which is supposed to be there but is not Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. cheers luigi > su-2.03# dd if=flogw-4000.bin of=/dev/rfd0.1720 > dd: /dev/rfd0.1720: Input/output error > 19+0 records in > 18+0 records out > 9216 bytes transferred in 3.377621 secs (2729 bytes/sec) > > Should I do anything special for this ? > > Thank you. > > -- > Alexander Prohorenko, Extra Solutions > http://extra.com.ua > "Good day to be alive, sir" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:30:16 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:30:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r42.bfm.org [216.127.220.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3C137B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00255 for hackers@FreeBSD.org; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:29:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:28:36 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: hackers@FreeBSD.org Subject: A bug in mmap? Message-ID: <20001222112836.A239@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think I have just discovered a bug... (FreeBSD 3.1). Here is the scenario: The program (I have written) opens a file as O_RDWR, then uses mmap with PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE and MAP_SHARED. It works on the data, optionally reduces the file size, then unmaps and closes it. Everything works fine as long as the file is on a native FreeBSD disk. But if it is on a Windows formatted hard drive mounted under FreeBSD, *sometimes* the file ends up filled with NULs. Could it be mmap may get confused by a Windows formated drive? It does NOT return an error, but it fills the mapped area with zeros. It overwrites the contents of the file with zeros, but does not change the directory information (i.e., the time of the last access, and such). It never happens on a FreeBSD drive, only on a Windows formated drive, which makes it rather spooky. Adam -- Apply standard disk lamer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:35:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:35:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68AC937B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:35:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBMHZDF15025; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:35:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:35:13 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A bug in mmap? Message-ID: <20001222093512.L19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <20001222112836.A239@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001222112836.A239@whizkidtech.net>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 11:28:36AM -0600 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * G. Adam Stanislav [001222 09:30] wrote: > I think I have just discovered a bug... (FreeBSD 3.1). > > Here is the scenario: The program (I have written) opens a file as O_RDWR, > then uses mmap with PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE and MAP_SHARED. It works on > the data, optionally reduces the file size, then unmaps and closes it. > > Everything works fine as long as the file is on a native FreeBSD disk. > But if it is on a Windows formatted hard drive mounted under FreeBSD, > *sometimes* the file ends up filled with NULs. > > Could it be mmap may get confused by a Windows formated drive? It does NOT > return an error, but it fills the mapped area with zeros. It overwrites > the contents of the file with zeros, but does not change the directory > information (i.e., the time of the last access, and such). > > It never happens on a FreeBSD drive, only on a Windows formated drive, > which makes it rather spooky. Most likely a result of a bug in the msdosfs code, perhaps you can help track it down? I don't use msdosfs. :( -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:40:57 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:40:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from onyx.extra.dp.ua (onyx.extra.dp.ua [195.248.182.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC2037B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from white@localhost) by onyx.extra.dp.ua (8.10.0/8.10.0/Who.Cares) id eBMHeTf12636; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:40:29 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:40:29 +0200 From: Alexander Prohorenko To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001222194029.C11268@extra.dp.ua> References: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.9i In-Reply-To: <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800 Organization: Extra Solutions X-Operating-System: SunOS 5.7 i86pc Sender: white@onyx.extra.dp.ua Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > > 1720K image there. > you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise > the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which > is supposed to be there but is not > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. Luigi. Thank you, your advise was very helpfull. However, I supposed to boot from it, but didn't get anyting except the FreeBSD BOOT loader. That's bad. I miss about 30KB on a usual fd1440 diskette to run my PicoBSD build on, that's why I'm digging into this format. Can you suggest me something in this case? Looks like FreeBSD BOOT loader doesn't know anything about disk partitioning for such "stressed" formats. -- Alexander Prohorenko, Extra Solutions http://extra.com.ua "Good day to be alive, sir" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:43:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:43:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F4A337B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBMHhZ777690; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012221743.eBMHhZ777690@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: fd1720 In-Reply-To: <20001222194029.C11268@extra.dp.ua> from Alexander Prohorenko at "Dec 22, 2000 7:40:29 pm" To: white@extra.dp.ua (Alexander Prohorenko) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:35 -0800 (PST) Cc: rizzo@aciri.org, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > > > 1720K image there. > > you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise > > the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which > > is supposed to be there but is not > > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. > > Luigi. > > Thank you, your advise was very helpfull. However, I supposed to boot > from it, but didn't get anyting except the FreeBSD BOOT loader. That's > bad. I miss about 30KB on a usual fd1440 diskette to run my PicoBSD > build on, that's why I'm digging into this format. try the "1480" format (you need the changes i recently committed to RELENG_4 should also help, as you save some another 70KB for the loader). > Can you suggest me something in this case? Looks like FreeBSD BOOT > loader doesn't know anything about disk partitioning for such > "stressed" formats. it is not the FreeBSD loader, it is the bios that only knows the 18x80 geometry (the same would be for the 18x82 geometry used by the 1480 format, but in that case apparently the bios does not check the track number). cheers luigi ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . ACIRI/ICSI (on leave from Univ. di Pisa) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . 1947 Center St, Berkeley CA 94704 Phone: (510) 666 2927 ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:49:29 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:49:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ringworld.nanolink.com (ringworld.nanolink.com [195.24.48.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 56C5637B699 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 53586 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Dec 2000 17:48:00 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:48:00 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: Alexander Prohorenko Cc: Luigi Rizzo , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001222194800.I1654@ringworld.oblivion.bg> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Prohorenko , Luigi Rizzo , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org> <20001222194029.C11268@extra.dp.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001222194029.C11268@extra.dp.ua>; from white@extra.dp.ua on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 07:40:29PM +0200 Sender: roam@ringworld.nanolink.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 07:40:29PM +0200, Alexander Prohorenko wrote: > On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > > > 1720K image there. > > you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise > > the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which > > is supposed to be there but is not > > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. > > Luigi. > > Thank you, your advise was very helpfull. However, I supposed to boot > from it, but didn't get anyting except the FreeBSD BOOT loader. That's > bad. I miss about 30KB on a usual fd1440 diskette to run my PicoBSD > build on, that's why I'm digging into this format. > > Can you suggest me something in this case? Looks like FreeBSD BOOT > loader doesn't know anything about disk partitioning for such > "stressed" formats. To quote luigi's commit message, introducing this functionality to -stable's PicoBSD.. luigi 2000/12/21 18:11:14 PST Modified files: (Branch: RELENG_4) release/picobsd/build build Log: Add support for different floppy sizes (1480, 1720, 2880). The "1720" format will not boot most likely. The "1480" format (really 1476KB, 18 sectors x 82 tracks) does boot fine on the systems i have tried. Can you try 1480? G'luck, Peter -- This sentence no verb. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 9:49:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 09:49:27 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from InterJet.dellroad.org (adsl-63-194-81-26.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.194.81.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76DBC37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:49:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from curve.dellroad.org (curve.dellroad.org [10.1.1.30]) by InterJet.dellroad.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA43179; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from archie@localhost) by curve.dellroad.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBMHnPG81236; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:49:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <200012221749.eBMHnPG81236@curve.dellroad.org> Subject: Re: [Re: New netgraph features?] In-Reply-To: <20001222074211.20124.qmail@nw174.netaddress.usa.net> "from John Smith at Dec 22, 2000 00:42:11 am" To: John Smith Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:49:25 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL82 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Smith writes: > >- We'd need to enhace the definition of a netgraph address > > to include, say, an IP address, eg.: > > > > $ ngctl msg 192.168.1.12:foo: blah blah > > Well, I was thinking about this. I would like to share > this pre-idea and to receive your opinions. > I have one question here. Why should it be limited > to UDP... (or whatever protocol)? Are we going to > loose something, if we, say, create special node > for 'netgraph tunneling' (so that it may ot may not > be included into a running kernel) then connect > this node to another one, which will be used for > 'transport' layer. Such a node could possibly be > used to encode/decode the inter-netgraph messages. > Other nodes' names then should include > the transport layer address. This way I think we > won't get limited to one protcol... Your idea of being protocol agnostic is more general.. however, there is a slightly larger problem I didn't mention before. Address syntax is parsed by the base code (ng_base.c). The syntax of an address is not something an individual node gets to decide.. so there are two possibilities.. You could do multi-host netgraph using a "private" addressing scheme, simply by defining a control message that contained inside it an IP address (or whatever), a netgraph address on the remote machine, and a payload control message. Then write a node that knows how to (de)encapsulate these control messages and send/recv them over the network. But then you have something like this: $ ngctl msg relaynode: { ip=192.168.1.12 addr="foo:" ... } instead of this: $ ngctl msg 192.168.1.12:foo: blah blah To get the "cooler" case #2 behavior, there would need to be "global" knowledge of the addressing scheme, which is of course tied into the delivery protocol because the generalized netgraph address must contain a protocol address (IP address or whatever). Now.. we do have a syntax for describing a struct sockaddr of any type (eg, ng_ksocket(4) node). So the protocol address could just be an ASCII struct sockaddr and that would be as general as it gets. -Archie __________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Packet Design * http://www.packetdesign.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 10: 0:15 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 10:00:10 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C5C37B402; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBMHxuY02714; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:59:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Alexander Prohorenko Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fd1720 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:21:12 +0200." <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:59:56 +0100 Message-ID: <2712.977507996@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua>, Alexander Prohorenko writes: >Hey. > >Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single >1720K image there. Did you format the floppy for it ? Try fdwrite -d /dev/rfd0.1720 -f flogw-4000.bin That will format, write, read & compare for you... >su-2.03# dd if=flogw-4000.bin of=/dev/rfd0.1720 >dd: /dev/rfd0.1720: Input/output error >19+0 records in >18+0 records out >9216 bytes transferred in 3.377621 secs (2729 bytes/sec) > >Should I do anything special for this ? > >Thank you. > >-- >Alexander Prohorenko, Extra Solutions >http://extra.com.ua >"Good day to be alive, sir" > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 10:27:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 10:27:08 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from onyx.extra.dp.ua (onyx.extra.dp.ua [195.248.182.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1BB37B404; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from white@localhost) by onyx.extra.dp.ua (8.10.0/8.10.0/Who.Cares) id eBMIOZB13332; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:24:35 +0200 (EET) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:24:35 +0200 From: Alexander Prohorenko To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001222202435.D11268@extra.dp.ua> References: <20001222194029.C11268@extra.dp.ua> <200012221743.eBMHhZ777690@iguana.aciri.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.9i In-Reply-To: <200012221743.eBMHhZ777690@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:43:35AM -0800 Organization: Extra Solutions X-Operating-System: SunOS 5.7 i86pc Sender: white@onyx.extra.dp.ua Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:43:35AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > Thank you, your advise was very helpfull. However, I supposed to boot > > from it, but didn't get anyting except the FreeBSD BOOT loader. That's > > bad. I miss about 30KB on a usual fd1440 diskette to run my PicoBSD > > build on, that's why I'm digging into this format. > try the "1480" format (you need the changes i recently committed to > RELENG_4 should also help, as you save some another 70KB for > the loader). Thank you. I'll run through the CVS and give it a shot. -- Alexander Prohorenko, Extra Solutions http://extra.com.ua "Good day to be alive, sir" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 10:49:42 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 10:49:40 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (chopper.poohsticks.org [63.227.60.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B8A37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (drew@localhost.poohsticks.org [127.0.0.1]) by chopper.Poohsticks.ORG (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBMIneh14119 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:49:40 -0700 Message-Id: <200012221849.eBMIneh14119@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:43:24 +0100." <20001222084324.181F596EC@toad.stack.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <14115.977510980.1@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 11:49:40 -0700 From: Drew Eckhardt Sender: drew@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001222084324.181F596EC@toad.stack.nl>, marcov@stack.nl writes: >Exactly the same in Europe, only the sharing parts are new for me. >The difference seems to be: >The problem is that in the US, it is legal to override this with the >licensing conditions. In Europe this right is inalienable. Some courts feel that once you've paid for a piece of software, the contract has been consumated, and the other party is not allowed to make any changes to that contract. For example, they can't tell you that once you open the pack containing the floppy diskettes, you agree to not reverse engineer the software and if you don't like it you can have your money back. Those terms weren't present when the contract was entered into, so they're not valid. Of course, anyone can sue anyone for any reason; and it's often less expensive to settle out of court even if you have a legally valid position. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 13:48: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 13:48:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.integratus.com (unknown [63.209.2.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C3EA737B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16882 invoked from network); 22 Dec 2000 21:47:50 -0000 Received: from kungfu.integratus.com (HELO integratus.com) (172.20.5.168) by tortuga1.integratus.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 2000 21:47:50 -0000 Sender: jar@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A43CC06.DD56C1BF@integratus.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:47:50 -0800 From: Jack Rusher Organization: http://www.integratus.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Smith Cc: Archie Cobbs , freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Re: New netgraph features?] References: <20001222074211.20124.qmail@nw174.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Smith wrote: > > loose something, if we, say, create special node > for 'netgraph tunneling' (so that it may ot may not I would like to see netgraph used to facilitate shared coherent interface support for FreeBSD (very valuable for clustering). Does anyone have an opinion on the difficulty of hacking something like this into the tunnel node code? -- Jack Rusher, Senior Engineer | mailto:jar@integratus.com Integratus, Inc. | http://www.integratus.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 13:52: 6 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 13:52:04 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from virtual.valuelinx.net (virtual.valuelinx.net [208.189.209.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC8837B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from penix.org (Toronto-ppp221312.sympatico.ca [64.228.106.129]) by virtual.valuelinx.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA07964 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:51:59 GMT Message-ID: <3A43CF12.84D43071@penix.org> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:00:50 -0500 From: Paul Halliday X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: KB problemo. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. Off topic, but I figured my best chance for some input would be from here. <-- I am sure most of you shudder upon hearing this.... My gateway is switched with one of my desktops ie. monitor / keyboard. Unfortunately yesterday when I switched to check some stuff out I realised that the keyboard would not work. On a reboot I get beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, then keyboard not found or keyboard error. So, yes as mentioned just recently on this list, hard switches are _BAD_. Now, aside from purchasing a new mb (it's only a p133, still fairly new). Is there a way that I can either; a) break out the soldering gun and replace the damaged components ex. being if it was just the actual plug on the mb I am sure I could solder on a new one, or b) use either a serial port or parellel port to get this machine back up? Appreciated.. -- Paul H. ============================================================================ Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Brute force is the last resort of the incompetent. GPG Key fingerprint: 2D7C A7E2 DB1F EA5F 8C6F D5EC 3D39 F274 4AA3 E8B9 Web: http://www3.sympatico.ca/transmogrify Public Key available here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/transmogrify/dp.txt ============================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 14:30:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 14:30:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C350C37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.77.116] (helo=buffy.raggedclown) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with smtp (Exim 3.14 #2) id 149ahb-0007f9-00; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:30:15 +0000 Received: (from cliff@localhost) by buffy.raggedclown (8.10.2/8.10.2) id eBMLpnC01970; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:51:49 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:51:49 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: Alexander Prohorenko , questions@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001222225149.A1924@buffy.local> References: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > Hey. > > > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > > 1720K image there. > > you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise > the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which > is supposed to be there but is not > > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. > Note also that if you have bad luck you can physically break the floppy drive doing this :( You have been warned ! Cliff To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:22:32 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:22:30 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812E937B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-135-46.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.135.46]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA15414; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:22:19 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A43E22B.61A7A49C@bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:22:19 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium 4 References: <200012212115.eBLLFDj01783@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > > Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? > > We've always run on the P4. > > > If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? > > No, it's still a 686. Basically, there are 3 possible issues for Pentium4: - higher clock frequency (also for newer P3) may cause overflow in counters of delay loops - hopefully this does not happen in FreeBSD - microcode download: it got new model ID, so minor tweaking may be needed to make sure that Pentium4 is recognised as upgradable (this depends on how model comparison is done for example, Linux needed this tweaking, UnixWare did not) - microcode download: CPUs must be handled one by one sequentially to accomodate the two-CPUs-on-one-chip technology (to exclude the case when two logical CPUs on the same chip are being told to do microcode upgrade at the same time) I think that's all. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:27:54 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:27:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019D837B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBMNcfj06065; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:38:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Sergey Babkin Cc: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium 4 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 18:22:19 EST." <3A43E22B.61A7A49C@bellatlantic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:38:41 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? > > > > We've always run on the P4. > > > > > If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? > > > > No, it's still a 686. > > Basically, there are 3 possible issues for Pentium4: > > - higher clock frequency (also for newer P3) may cause overflow > in counters of delay loops - hopefully this does not happen in > FreeBSD We calibrate our delay loops. 8) > - microcode download: it got new model ID, so minor tweaking may be > needed to make sure that Pentium4 is recognised as upgradable > (this depends on how model comparison is done for example, Linux > needed this tweaking, UnixWare did not) FreeBSD doesn't do microcode download; it is expected that the platform BIOS will do this (since the download is an Intel trade secret, we are unlikely to ever do this). The Linux issue was actually more stupid than that; Linux won't run on a CPU it doesn't recognise. FreeBSD will only refuse to run on a CPU it recognises as incapable (since that is a much smaller set). > - microcode download: CPUs must be handled one by one sequentially > to accomodate the two-CPUs-on-one-chip technology (to exclude > the case when two logical CPUs on the same chip are being told to > do microcode upgrade at the same time) See above. 8) -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:33:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:33:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DB537B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBMNXFx79651; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:33:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012222333.eBMNXFx79651@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: Pentium 4 In-Reply-To: <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com> from Mike Smith at "Dec 22, 2000 3:38:41 pm" To: msmith@FreeBSD.ORG (Mike Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:33:15 -0800 (PST) Cc: babkin@bellatlantic.net, heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The Linux issue was actually more stupid than that; Linux won't run on a > CPU it doesn't recognise. FreeBSD will only refuse to run on a CPU it > recognises as incapable (since that is a much smaller set). actually, back in 1.1.5 times, i had a kernel which did not have cpu I586_CPU in the kernel config file, and it did refuse to run on a pentium cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:36:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:36:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5BD37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20885; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:37:43 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thank you for your attention. Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. The talk schedule is posted on: http://www.svbug.com/events/ I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD 'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. Please note, I'm not here to flame or troll, just ask questions. Your responses determine the tone of all conversations. Lastly, please trim the CC: line as you feel appropriate. Thanks. Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:48:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:48:34 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D919B37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from holly.calldei.com ([208.191.149.190]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0G5Z00E5LTUFH4@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:42:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.calldei.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA05477; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:43:38 -0600 (CST envelope-from chris) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:43:36 -0600 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? In-reply-to: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> To: opentrax@email.com Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <20001222174335.A3922@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Sender: chris@holly.calldei.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, December 22, 2000, opentrax@email.com wrote: > Thank you for your attention. > > Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. If you don't know anything about it, why do you claim it's evil? -- +-------------------+------------------------------+ | Chris Costello | I modem, but they grew back. | | chris@calldei.com | | +-------------------+------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:52: 8 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:52:06 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from herd.plethora.net (herd.plethora.net [205.166.146.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BD837B402 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (root@guild.plethora.net [205.166.146.8]) by herd.plethora.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA20063 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:52:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from guild.plethora.net (seebs@localhost.plethora.net [127.0.0.1]) by guild.plethora.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA25773 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:52:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200012222352.RAA25773@guild.plethora.net> From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) Reply-To: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:43:36 CST." <20001222174335.A3922@holly.calldei.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:52:03 -0600 Sender: seebs@plethora.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001222174335.A3922@holly.calldei.com>, Chris Costello writes: >On Friday, December 22, 2000, opentrax@email.com wrote: >> Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. > If you don't know anything about it, why do you claim it's >evil? I think it's safe to assume that anything you don't understand is evil, dangerous, and not to be trusted. This simple strategy has gotten us from humble roots to near total domination of the land masses of a whole planet. Why argue with success? -s p.s.: That said, I'm not going to the talk, because I'm not sure I know who this guy is who wants to give it, so I distrust him. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 15:55: 3 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 15:55:01 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74C237B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBMNsxH79802; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:54:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012222354.eBMNsxH79802@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? In-Reply-To: <200012222352.RAA25773@guild.plethora.net> from Peter Seebach at "Dec 22, 2000 5:52: 3 pm" To: seebs@plethora.net Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:54:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >On Friday, December 22, 2000, opentrax@email.com wrote: > >> Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. ... > p.s.: That said, I'm not going to the talk, because I'm not sure I know > who this guy is who wants to give it, so I distrust him. http://www.svbug.com/events/ reports the name Jesus Monroy Jr., i am sure this will tell you something... cheers luigi ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . ACIRI/ICSI (on leave from Univ. di Pisa) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . 1947 Center St, Berkeley CA 94704 Phone: (510) 666 2927 ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:18:38 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:18:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF3137B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBN00rB79870; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200012230000.eBN00rB79870@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: fd1720 In-Reply-To: <20001222225149.A1924@buffy.local> from Cliff Sarginson at "Dec 22, 2000 10:51:49 pm" To: cliff@raggedclown.net (Cliff Sarginson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:00:53 -0800 (PST) Cc: rizzo@aciri.org, white@extra.dp.ua, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: rizzo@iguana.aciri.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. > > > Note also that if you have bad luck you can physically break the floppy drive > doing this :( if so, that will also happen with the '1480' format, which uses the same 82 tracks. Fact is, any decent drive is not supposed to break just because you ask it to move the head too far away, it should just stop and return some kind of error. cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:21:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:21:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.attica.net.nz (mail.attica.net.nz [202.180.64.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 71F4D37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12805 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 00:21:22 -0000 Received: from 202-180-75-8.iff0.attica.net.nz (HELO davep200.afterswish.com) (202.180.75.8) by mail.attica.net.nz with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 00:21:22 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223123756.01afe2a0@pop3.i4free.co.nz> X-Sender: dmpreece@pop3.i4free.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:52:39 +1300 To: Paul Halliday From: David Preece Subject: Re: KB problemo. Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3A43CF12.84D43071@penix.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 17:00 22/12/00 -0500, you wrote: >On a reboot I get >beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, then keyboard not found or keyboard error. So, yes >as mentioned just recently on this list, hard switches are _BAD_. So the keyboard controller's toast, is that what we're saying? Presumably you've tried connecting the keyboard directly to eliminate the all too real possiblity that it's the switch that's broken? > Now, aside from purchasing a new mb [snip] >b) use either a >serial port or parellel port to get this machine back up? Ah, man, good one because it's the kind of thing you would have no chance whatsoever of doing under Windows :) The important point here has nothing to do with FreeBSD at all: Will your BIOS let the booting process continue without a keyboard. Or do you get the monster cliche'd "keyboard error, press F1 to continue"? If it won't continue booting, adieu to the motherboard. If it will then I suggest putting the hard drive in another fairly similar machine and configuring BSD to run headless i.e. using a serial port as the console. I have a development box I've been using like this for about six months and have had no problems at all. Doesn't even have a video card in it. So, obviously, you then put the hard drive back in the box with the dead keyboard controller and run a serial cable over to your workstation. Anytime you need to log on, do it over the cable. Problem solved, with extra brownie points because it's secure. Configuring FreeBSD to run headless is a FAQ on -small, and consequently I did a page about it that's hosted in half a dozen places.... none of which I can remember. Search the archive on -small for "headless" and you'll be there. >Paul H. Dave :) PS. Probably better on -questions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:22:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:22:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F6037B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaborone-56.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.52.184] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 149cSV-0001sA-00; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:22:47 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A43F021.F3C66B12@elischer.org> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:21:53 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aled Morris Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Julian's World tour References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Aled Morris wrote: > > On Thu, 21 Dec 2000, Julian Elischer wrote: > > __--_|\ Julian Elischer > / \ julian@elischer.org > ( OZ ) World tour 2000 > ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest > v > > Is that map strictly correct? Or is Budapest also a suburb of Perth? > > Aled yeah I know I know.. -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ From Perth, presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:27:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:27:18 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.interware.hu (mail.interware.hu [195.70.32.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993F837B402; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from gaborone-56.budapest.interware.hu ([195.70.52.184] helo=elischer.org) by mail.interware.hu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 149cWn-00024H-00; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:27:13 +0100 Sender: julian@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A43F12B.1E24B658@elischer.org> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:26:19 -0800 From: Julian Elischer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, hu MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Smith Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, archie@dellroad.org, freebsd-net@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New netgraph features? References: <20001222160754.8887.qmail@nwcst276.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Smith wrote: > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >I may not have caught the drift here, but if you send meta-data > >across the net, wouldn't some kind of authentication be needed? > > Yes, It must be. This is probably the next-in-thread request for > comments/suggestions. I'm still not sure if the whole thing would be useful, > so, the authentication methods seem too far to me at the present time. If you > have any comments about this... I think you know what to do :) Netgraph was designed to be a link-level patch-pannel within ONE machine.. I guess you might be able to use it to bridge between two networks that are on different machines... but.... -- __--_|\ Julian Elischer / \ julian@elischer.org ( OZ ) World tour 2000 ---> X_.---._/ from Perth, presently in: Budapest v To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:30:50 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:30:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.attica.net.nz (mail.attica.net.nz [202.180.64.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EE7C37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 509 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 00:30:44 -0000 Received: from 202-180-75-42.iff0.attica.net.nz (HELO davep200.afterswish.com) (202.180.75.42) by mail.attica.net.nz with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 00:30:44 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz> X-Sender: dmpreece@pop3.i4free.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:25:11 +1300 To: opentrax@email.com From: David Preece Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. As ever, IMHO. Dave :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:32:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:32:53 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A0A37B402 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13382; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:32:38 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: David Preece Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:32:36 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz> References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23 Dec 2000, at 13:25, David Preece wrote: > At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: > > >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. > > Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. > > The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making > mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. It is possible. It is not trivial. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ NZ Broadband - http://unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:36: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:36:00 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E1537B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) id eBN0Zs427958; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:35:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:35:54 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Dan Langille Cc: David Preece , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Message-ID: <20001222163554.Q19572@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz> <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org>; from dan@langille.org on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 01:32:36PM +1300 Sender: bright@fw.wintelcom.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Dan Langille [001222 16:33] wrote: > On 23 Dec 2000, at 13:25, David Preece wrote: > > > At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: > > > > >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > > >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. > > > > Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. > > > > The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making > > mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. > > It is possible. It is not trivial. No, it's practically impossible when correct precautions are taken. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org] "I have the heart of a child; I keep it in a jar on my desk." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:41:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:41:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-99.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15C537B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:41:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (topperwein.dyndns.org [192.168.168.10]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBN0gKP10906 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:42:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 19:42:20 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Sender: behanna@zbzoom.net Reply-To: behanna@zbzoom.net To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, David Preece wrote: > At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: > > >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter than say > >telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. > > Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. > > The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, > making mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. Man-in-the-middle or not, the fact that your data aren't transmitted in the clear automatically gives ssh a leg up over telnet, rsh, rlogin, and ftp. (At least one large company I know of has stated flatly, for example, that sending a root password over the wire in the clear is grounds for immediate termination.) You can certainly do your own server authentication, by carrying your known hosts file around on a floppy. ssh *does* warn you when you connect to a host that isn't present in your known hosts file--this isn't happening without your knowledge *and* consent. ssh may have its weaknesses, but telnet has little use other than as a diagnostic tool, IMHO (I only use it to send protocol commands to popd or sendmail these days). I'd *hardly* characterize ssh as "evil". -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net Remove "bogus" before responding. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 16:54:41 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 16:54:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-63-202-177-107.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [63.202.177.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21DF137B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.osd.bsdi.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBN147j06317; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com) Message-Id: <200012230105.eBN147j06317@mass.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: David Preece Cc: Paul Halliday , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: KB problemo. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:52:39 +1300." <5.0.0.25.1.20001223123756.01afe2a0@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:04:06 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: msmith@mass.osd.bsdi.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 17:00 22/12/00 -0500, you wrote: > >On a reboot I get > >beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, then keyboard not found or keyboard error. So, yes > >as mentioned just recently on this list, hard switches are _BAD_. > > So the keyboard controller's toast, is that what we're saying? Presumably > you've tried connecting the keyboard directly to eliminate the all too real > possiblity that it's the switch that's broken? Note that there's a good chance that all that's really dead is the keyboard fuse. On some motherboards, this is a soft fuse that will reset after a few minutes; on many others it's a surface-mount or through-hole component. Identifying it is easy if you know what you're looking for, which probably doesn't help you, since if you knew about it, you wouldn't be asking here. 8( -- ... every activity meets with opposition, everyone who acts has his rivals and unfortunately opponents also. But not because people want to be opponents, rather because the tasks and relationships force people to take different points of view. [Dr. Fritz Todt] V I C T O R Y N O T V E N G E A N C E To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 17:51: 2 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 17:50:59 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C4337B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA787030; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:47:27 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 20:47:26 -0500 To: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 3:37 PM -0800 12/22/00, opentrax@email.com wrote: >Thank you for your attention. > >Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. >The talk schedule is posted on: >http://www.svbug.com/events/ >I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD >'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing >list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. People in the "FreeBSD community" are invited to read the rambling and pointless discussions that this sparked in the OpenBSD and NetBSD communities before repeating all those arguments in all the freebsd mailing lists. If you still think you have something to say which wasn't said in those threads, well, have fun at it. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 21:53:24 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 21:53:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEAD37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 21:53:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBN5rFs40189; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:53:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA28331; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:53:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012230553.WAA28331@harmony.village.org> To: David Preece Subject: Re: KB problemo. Cc: Paul Halliday , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:52:39 +1300." <5.0.0.25.1.20001223123756.01afe2a0@pop3.i4free.co.nz> References: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223123756.01afe2a0@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:53:14 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@harmony.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <5.0.0.25.1.20001223123756.01afe2a0@pop3.i4free.co.nz> David Preece writes: : At 17:00 22/12/00 -0500, you wrote: : >On a reboot I get : >beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, then keyboard not found or keyboard error. So, yes : >as mentioned just recently on this list, hard switches are _BAD_. : : So the keyboard controller's toast, is that what we're saying? Presumably : you've tried connecting the keyboard directly to eliminate the all too real : possiblity that it's the switch that's broken? I've found that when the keyboard controller goes like this, it usually isn't the keyboard controller per se. On my older 486 machines I have seen this many time, but swapping out the 8242 keyboard controller chip doesn't seem to help.... : Configuring FreeBSD to run headless is a FAQ on -small, and consequently I : did a page about it that's hosted in half a dozen places.... none of which : I can remember. Search the archive on -small for "headless" and you'll be : there. echo -h > /boot.config Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 22:16:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 22:16:22 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from puck.firepipe.net (poynting.physics.purdue.edu [128.210.146.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C0937B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:16:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from argon.firepipe.net (pm005-017.dialup.bignet.net [64.79.80.209]) by puck.firepipe.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420041A3A; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by argon.firepipe.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EAFD11909; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:18:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 14:18:05 -0500 From: Will Andrews To: Aled Morris Cc: Julian Elischer , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Julian's World tour Message-ID: <20001222141805.R328@argon.firepipe.net> Reply-To: Will Andrews References: <3A42A189.45D56AA8@elischer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from aledm@qix.co.uk on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 01:30:56PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: will@argon.firepipe.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 01:30:56PM +0000, Aled Morris wrote: > __--_|\ Julian Elischer > / \ julian@elischer.org > ( OZ ) World tour 2000 > ---> X_.---._/ presently in: Budapest > v > > Is that map strictly correct? Or is Budapest also a suburb of Perth? It used to say "presently in: Perth", but I'm sure he updated that and forgot about the map. ;) -- wca To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 22:57: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 22:57:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost01.reflexnet.net (mailhost01.reflexnet.net [64.6.192.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CEF37B400; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com ([64.6.211.149]) by mailhost01.reflexnet.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:55:18 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eBN6ut315862; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:56:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 22:56:55 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Message-ID: <20001222225655.H96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:37:43PM -0800 Sender: cjc@rfx-64-6-211-149.users.reflexcom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ____________ | | _________ | PLEASE DO | | | | NOT FEED | | THANK | | THE TROLLS | | YOU | |____________| |_________| || | || | || | || | || | || | || | || | ````````|| |```````````|| |````````` Please, not on another list. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Dec 22 23:27:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 22 23:27:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from citusc.usc.edu (citusc.usc.edu [128.125.38.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BECD37B400 for ; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kris@localhost) by citusc.usc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA08126; Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:28:08 -0800 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:28:07 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: David Preece Cc: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Message-ID: <20001222232807.A8092@citusc.usc.edu> References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.1.20001223132307.01b00b70@pop3.i4free.co.nz>; from davep@afterswish.com on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 01:25:11PM +1300 Sender: kris@citusc.usc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 01:25:11PM +1300, David Preece wrote: > At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >=20 > >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. >=20 > Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. >=20 > The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, makin= g=20 > mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. Incorrect..the problems with SSH come down to flaws in the human operator who ignore the warnings SSH gives them, and tell it explicitly to do insecure things like connect to a server which is suddenly not the one you're used to connecting to. These flaws can be all but eliminated by telling SSH to not even give the poor weak confused human the choice of answering yes to the question, by setting of a simple configuration option. JMJr, a good place to start your talk on "The Evils of SSH" might be the Pavlovian conditioning of humans to answer "Yes" to every question a computer gives them..focus on the real problem here. Kris --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE6RFQHWry0BWjoQKURAiyeAJ48Zyz/CY1QfBw7yxqPi5C2mSstJQCZAY/O sZBEeUq7F7HXq7JToUWMaRk= =aWwR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 1:20:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 01:20:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8837B402; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21384; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:21:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012230921.BAA21384@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:21:57 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: chris@calldei.com Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001222174335.A3922@holly.calldei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Dec, Chris Costello wrote: > On Friday, December 22, 2000, opentrax@email.com wrote: >> Thank you for your attention. >> >> Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. > > If you don't know anything about it, why do you claim it's > evil? > I don't know if I've claimed either. Jessem To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 1:59:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 01:59:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3049437B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 01:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21431; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012231000.CAA21431@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:00:54 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: dan@langille.org Cc: davep@afterswish.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23 Dec, Dan Langille wrote: > On 23 Dec 2000, at 13:25, David Preece wrote: > >> At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter >> >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. >> >> Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. >> >> The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making >> mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. > > It is possible. It is not trivial. > What leads you to believe that it's not trival? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 2: 4:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 02:04:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B8B37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21445; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:05:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012231005.CAA21445@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:05:46 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: behanna@zbzoom.net Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Dec, Chris BeHanna wrote: > On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, David Preece wrote: > >> At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter than say >> >telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. >> >> Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. >> >> The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, >> making mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. > > Man-in-the-middle or not, the fact that your data aren't > transmitted in the clear automatically gives ssh a leg up over telnet, > rsh, rlogin, and ftp. (At least one large company I know of has > stated flatly, for example, that sending a root password over the wire > in the clear is grounds for immediate termination.) > Is it possible to get the name of that company? > You can certainly > do your own server authentication, by carrying your known hosts file > around on a floppy. ssh *does* warn you when you connect to a host > that isn't present in your known hosts file--this isn't happening > without your knowledge *and* consent. > Some people have stated that the "first contact" scenario is difficult to over come. How do you feel about that? > ssh may have its weaknesses, but telnet has little use other than > as a diagnostic tool, IMHO (I only use it to send protocol commands to > popd or sendmail these days). I'd *hardly* characterize ssh as "evil". > I don't beleive I've ever said SSH is evil. It seems to be a common interpetation of the statement I made. I see that I'll have to make note of that in my talk. Are there any other points you feel might be either a "plus" or "minus" in behalf of ssh? Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 2:10:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 02:10:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1FE37B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:10:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21457; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:11:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012231011.CAA21457@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:11:23 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: drosih@rpi.edu Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Dec, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 3:37 PM -0800 12/22/00, opentrax@email.com wrote: >>Thank you for your attention. >> >>Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. >>The talk schedule is posted on: >>http://www.svbug.com/events/ >>I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD >>'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing >>list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. > > People in the "FreeBSD community" are invited to read the > rambling and pointless discussions that this sparked in > the OpenBSD and NetBSD communities before repeating all > those arguments in all the freebsd mailing lists. > > If you still think you have something to say which wasn't > said in those threads, well, have fun at it. > Mr. Drosishn, I'm not sure where you gather your information, but but other mailing list have been very helpful about this subject. As matter of fact, the harshes critics to date have been from OpenBSD. I'm not sure if we are both reading the same material. Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 2:11:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 02:11:14 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33AB737B402; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21461; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012231012.CAA21461@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001222225655.H96105@149.211.6.64.reflexcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mr Clark, Could I trouble you to use your comments in my talk? Jessem. On 22 Dec, Crist J. Clark wrote: > > ____________ > | | _________ > | PLEASE DO | | | > | NOT FEED | | THANK | > | THE TROLLS | | YOU | > |____________| |_________| > || | || | > || | || | > || | || | > || | || | > ````````|| |```````````|| |````````` > > Please, not on another list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 2:15:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 02:15:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from spammie.svbug.com (unknown [198.79.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1388B37B402; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from spammie.svbug.com (localhost.mozie.org [127.0.0.1]) by spammie.svbug.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21468; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:16:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jessem@spammie.svbug.com) Message-Id: <200012231016.CAA21468@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 02:16:51 -0800 (PST) From: opentrax@email.com Reply-To: opentrax@email.com Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? To: kris@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: davep@afterswish.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001222232807.A8092@citusc.usc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: jessem@spammie.svbug.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 22 Dec, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 01:25:11PM +1300, David Preece wrote: >> At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: >> >> >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter >> >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. >> >> Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. >> >> The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making >> mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. > > Incorrect..the problems with SSH come down to flaws in the human > operator who ignore the warnings SSH gives them, and tell it > explicitly to do insecure things like connect to a server which is > suddenly not the one you're used to connecting to. > Are you stateing that one of the issues with SSH is a social issue and not a technical? > These flaws can be all but eliminated by telling SSH to not even give > the poor weak confused human the choice of answering yes to the > question, by setting of a simple configuration option. > > JMJr, a good place to start your talk on "The Evils of SSH" might be > the Pavlovian conditioning of humans to answer "Yes" to every question > a computer gives them..focus on the real problem here. > I'm giving your comments some consideration. Is there any other evidence that might help this type of arugement out? I've consider it, but it is a weak arguement and it really needs a solid foundation for presentation. Can you site(sp?) and specific studies or experiments that might aide in this area? Jessem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 3:15:40 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 03:15:38 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 925C437B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16241; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:14:18 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <200012231114.AAA16241@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: langille.org To: opentrax@email.com Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:14:17 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <200012231000.CAA21431@spammie.svbug.com> References: <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23 Dec 2000, at 2:00, opentrax@email.com wrote: > On 23 Dec, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 23 Dec 2000, at 13:25, David Preece wrote: > > > >> At 15:37 22/12/00 -0800, you wrote: > >> > >> >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > >> >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. > >> > >> Sorry, don't have time to reply to this properly. > >> > >> The main evil of ssh is that server authentication is not enforced, making > >> mounting a man-in-the-middle attack basically trivial. > > > > It is possible. It is not trivial. > > > What leads you to believe that it's not trival? You are the one claiming it is trivial. The onus is on you to prove your own claim. Or conversely, prove me wrong. I'm not feeding you. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ NZ Broadband - http://unixathome.org/broadband/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 4:15:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 04:15:39 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genesis.tao.org.uk [194.242.131.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AA5837B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 04:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2CAE13224; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:15:35 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:15:35 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: Luigi Rizzo , Alexander Prohorenko , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fd1720 Message-ID: <20001223121535.B621@tao.org.uk> References: <20001222182112.A11268@extra.dp.ua> <200012221652.eBMGqqf77392@iguana.aciri.org> <20001222225149.A1924@buffy.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001222225149.A1924@buffy.local>; from cliff@raggedclown.net on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:51:49PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 10:51:49PM +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 08:52:52AM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > Hey. > > > > > > Did anybody suceed with fd1720 flopies ? I couldn't write any single > > > 1720K image there. > > > > you must fdformat /dev/fd0.1720 (check syntax) first, otherwise > > the write fails when it hits the first sector (sec.19 track 0) which > > is supposed to be there but is not > > > > Note that almost surely you won't be able to boot from that disk. > > > Note also that if you have bad luck you can physically break the floppy drive > doing this :( > You have been warned ! I've never seen a drive broken by this. I used to use 11 sec/82 track formats years ago under cp/m systems. :) [It's really useful having the code to the O/S] Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 4:34:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 04:34:57 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from ringworld.nanolink.com (ringworld.nanolink.com [195.24.48.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7748637B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 04:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13375 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Dec 2000 12:32:42 -0000 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:32:42 +0200 From: Peter Pentchev To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: Mike Smith , babkin@bellatlantic.net, heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium 4 Message-ID: <20001223143242.C59497@ringworld.oblivion.bg> Mail-Followup-To: Luigi Rizzo , Mike Smith , babkin@bellatlantic.net, heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com> <200012222333.eBMNXFx79651@iguana.aciri.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012222333.eBMNXFx79651@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > The Linux issue was actually more stupid than that; Linux won't run on a > > CPU it doesn't recognise. FreeBSD will only refuse to run on a CPU it > > recognises as incapable (since that is a much smaller set). > > actually, back in 1.1.5 times, i had a kernel which did not have > cpu I586_CPU in the kernel config file, and it did refuse to > run on a pentium It is still like this - if you do not have support for your CPU *class*, FreeBSD will refuse to boot. However, you do not have to have support for each and every CPU model from this class - a I686_CPU kernel will very happily run on Pentium 4 CPU's. Or am I raving again? :) Feel free to correct any gross errors I've made :) G'luck, Peter -- I had to translate this sentence into English because I could not read the original Sanskrit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 5:21:12 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 05:21:09 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailhost.tue.nl (mailhost.tue.nl [131.155.2.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D21937B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:21:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.tue.nl (hermes.tue.nl [131.155.2.46]) by mailhost.tue.nl (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBNDL7S14751 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:21:07 +0100 (MET) Received: from deathstar (t-27-122.athome.tue.nl [131.155.228.122]) by hermes.tue.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774292E802 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:21:06 +0100 (CET) From: "Marco van de Voort" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:21:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Pentium 4 Message-ID: <3A44B4D2.13709.5F439B@localhost> Priority: normal In-reply-to: <20001223143242.C59497@ringworld.oblivion.bg> References: <200012222333.eBMNXFx79651@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: marcov@toad.stack.nl Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > > The Linux issue was actually more stupid than that; Linux won't run on a > > > CPU it doesn't recognise. FreeBSD will only refuse to run on a CPU it > > > recognises as incapable (since that is a much smaller set). > > > > actually, back in 1.1.5 times, i had a kernel which did not have > > cpu I586_CPU in the kernel config file, and it did refuse to > > run on a pentium > > It is still like this - if you do not have support for your CPU *class*, > FreeBSD will refuse to boot. However, you do not have to have support > for each and every CPU model from this class - a I686_CPU kernel will > very happily run on Pentium 4 CPU's. > > Or am I raving again? :) Feel free to correct any gross errors I've made :) Afaik yes :-) IIRC the problem is that P4 reports itself back as family 15 or something like that, not 6. ? Marco van de Voort (MarcoV@Stack.nl or marco@freepascal.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 5:59:20 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 05:59:19 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout00.sul.t-online.com (mailout00.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57A437B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd06.sul.t-online.com by mailout00.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 149pCe-0000IO-02; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:59:16 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.195.126]) by fmrl06.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 149pAt-0EnL9cC; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:27 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724C5AB0C for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0318314ABB; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:32 +0100 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: kvtop() on alpha question Message-ID: <20001223145732.B49837@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! I have a question: How can the if_ed driver work on FreeBSD/Alpha, if it uses kvtop(), but kvtop() is only defined in sys/i386/i386/vm_machdep.c? I'm very confused, and I wonder if someone can enlighten me, please. Thanks Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 8:30:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 08:30:26 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2363437B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 149rYr-0005dr-02; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:30:21 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.1/8.11.1) id eBNGD4o92764 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:13:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:13:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <922iuf$2qgr$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Sender: daemon@mips.inka.de Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG wrote: > I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD > 'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing > list. Indeed. Please ignore him, he's a troll. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 9:51: 4 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 09:51:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [207.154.226.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F32837B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 09:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1098) id 1747C2B248; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:50:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:50:51 -0600 From: Bill Fumerola To: opentrax@email.com Cc: dan@langille.org, davep@afterswish.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Message-ID: <20001223115051.X72273@elvis.mu.org> References: <200012230032.NAA13382@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> <200012231000.CAA21431@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012231000.CAA21431@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 02:00:54AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-FEARSOME-20001103 i386 Sender: billf@elvis.mu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 02:00:54AM -0800, opentrax@email.com wrote: > > It is possible. It is not trivial. > > > What leads you to believe that it's not trival? A functioning brain. -- Bill Fumerola - security yahoo / Yahoo! inc. - fumerola@yahoo-inc.com / billf@FreeBSD.org PS. I liked it better when you trolled advocacy, it was much easier to unsubscribe from that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 11: 8:19 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:08:17 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C6337B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-167.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.167]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25871; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:08:10 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A44F819.D2A5D8AC@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:08:09 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith Cc: heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium 4 References: <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > > > Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > > Is there now support for the Pentium 4 in FreeBSD?? > > > > > > We've always run on the P4. > > > > > > > If so, is there an option such as CPUCLASS 786 in the Kernel?? > > > > > > No, it's still a 686. > > > > Basically, there are 3 possible issues for Pentium4: > > > > - higher clock frequency (also for newer P3) may cause overflow > > in counters of delay loops - hopefully this does not happen in > > FreeBSD > > We calibrate our delay loops. 8) If not enough bits are allowed to store the calibrated value then there will be overflows with bad consequences - delays may take almost forever. UnixWare had a problem of this sort with CPUs > ~800MHz. I suppose FreeBSD does not. > > - microcode download: it got new model ID, so minor tweaking may be > > needed to make sure that Pentium4 is recognised as upgradable > > (this depends on how model comparison is done for example, Linux > > needed this tweaking, UnixWare did not) > > FreeBSD doesn't do microcode download; it is expected that the platform > BIOS will do this (since the download is an Intel trade secret, we are > unlikely to ever do this). Well, the process of download itself is published, look at the IA-32 specs at the Intel development site - they include this information and information on P4 in general except the Jackson (two CPUs on one chip) technology which is for now NDA-only. I'm not sure what license Intel attaches to the microcode images it distributes. I think it prohibits to use it for any purpose except than updating the genuine Intel CPUs but otherwise may be downloaded freely, but I'm not sure. > The Linux issue was actually more stupid than that; Linux won't run on a > CPU it doesn't recognise. FreeBSD will only refuse to run on a CPU it > recognises as incapable (since that is a much smaller set). As far as I understood from the explanation I got from a preson at Intel, Linux did not compare the CPU model field and used only the stepping (or something like this) field of the identification MSR. So it recognised P4 as the very first stepping of PentiumPro and thus not having the microcode upgrade feature. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 11:39:14 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:39:12 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2CB37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-201.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.201]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26155; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:39:05 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A44FF55.527988B3@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:39:01 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis , Marco van de Voort , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dennis wrote: > > Source is more of a "hassle", binary loads right up. the SNMP package is a > great example. Doing it from source is a nightmare. Missing includes, wrong > paths. compile failures. The package loads right up and Im running. This is an example of why the build environment must be considered part of the source code. Look at commercial Linux distributions for more examples. > Reverse engineering is a myth. The result is so inferior to high-level > language source code as to not be a concern, plus its illegal so it cant be > marketed. Apparently you never did reverse engineering. When I did such things I got the code de-compiled (manually) back to the C language. It's a bit boring but not too much work even for the RISC machines (and mauch easier for IA-32 than for RISC). And it's legal to do outside US for the purpose of learning the interfaces. (I believe that it should be made legal in US too). -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 11:45:31 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:45:29 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19A7737B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-201.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.201]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26210; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:45:25 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A4500D3.9E8FE4E3@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:45:23 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SteveB Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SteveB wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: seebs@plethora.net [mailto:seebs@plethora.net] > > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 9:54 AM > > To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs > > Linux, Solaris, > > and NT) > > > > >In the open source > > >world is there a official QA process or group. Is there a FreeBSD > > >test suite that releases go through. QA is unglamorous work, but > > >needs to be done. > > > > I don't know about the "official" process, but I will tell > > you that I'd > > rather have my life depend on FreeBSD-current than on > > Windows NT, despite > > the "QA cycle". > > > > There are many ways to do effective QA. > > > > -s > > > It would just make pitching FreeBSD and other open OS's in the > enterprise a lot easier if there was an QA process that official > releases went through. Also volunteering to QA would be a good > training ground to gain familiarity with a OS and a chance to > communicate with developers. By the way, there is some QA activity going on for Linux-64. Not that it's going too actively but may be worth looking at. The [weak] backbone of Linux-64 testing is SCO/Caldera porting the UnixWare test suites to Linux, so you may want to look at this stuff. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 11:56:56 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:56:50 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from dfw-smtpout2.email.verio.net (dfw-smtpout2.email.verio.net [129.250.36.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE8C37B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.250.38.62] (helo=dfw-mmp2.email.verio.net) by dfw-smtpout2.email.verio.net with esmtp id 149umf-0005JA-00; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:56:49 +0000 Received: from [204.203.2.185] (helo=gazelle) by dfw-mmp2.email.verio.net with smtp id 149ume-00039m-00; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:56:49 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20001223120439.00935100@mail.accessone.com> X-Sender: bokr@mail.accessone.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:04:39 -0800 To: opentrax@email.com From: Bengt Richter Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You are clueless as to the effect of your word choices. Thank you for reading that. Please note that I am not writing this to flame, but in an attempt to be helpful ;-) At 15:37 2000-12-22 -0800 opentrax@email.com wrote: >Thank you for your attention. Your subject line got my attention, but so would having someone tug at my sleeve, or worse impertinence. How about "Please help me prepare for SSH talk" ? > >Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. If you don't know that the above sentence strongly implies the existence of the referred-to "evils," may I suggest that you attend an English refresher. (Please don't tell me an empty set can exist). If you are going to invite others to express their opinions, the implicit assertion of your own as unqualified fact is not a good starting point. >The talk schedule is posted on: >http://www.svbug.com/events/ >I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD >'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing >list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. > >The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter >than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. Your foreplay stinks. You are trying to take advantage of my natural interest, but your approach forces me to overcome negative feelings before I can participate, which I would otherwise willingly do. It's a shame, really. >Please note, I'm not here to flame or troll, just >ask questions. Your responses determine the tone >of all conversations. > Your subject line resonated with the tone of crass attention grabbing. Do you disclaim all responsibility re tone, after thus giving everyone a goosing in an area of interest? If you are used that, you watch too much TV. >Lastly, please trim the CC: line as you feel appropriate. > > > Thanks. > Jessem. That's ok. HTH. Really. Regards, Bengt Richter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 11:59:53 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 11:59:51 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B585C37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-201.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.201]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26323; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:59:47 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A450433.A10C8B9@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:59:47 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco van de Voort Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium 4 References: <200012222333.eBMNXFx79651@iguana.aciri.org>; from rizzo@aciri.org on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800 <3A44B4D2.13709.5F439B@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marco van de Voort wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:33:15PM -0800, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > very happily run on Pentium 4 CPU's. > > > > Or am I raving again? :) Feel free to correct any gross errors I've made :) > > Afaik yes :-) > > IIRC the problem is that P4 reports itself back as family 15 or > something like that, not 6. ? Yes. They added a concept of "extended family field" which is used when the 4-bit family field is set to 15. But the IA-32 manual does not say anything about what exactly P4 would return in this extended field. -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 12:12:27 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 12:12:25 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net [209.3.218.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 531DB37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from bellatlantic.net (client-151-198-117-201.nnj.dialup.bellatlantic.net [151.198.117.201]) by smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA26297; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:38 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@smtp02.teb1.iconnet.net Message-ID: <3A4503B2.C0DE31A@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:38 -0500 From: Sergey Babkin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-19990626-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en, ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremiah Gowdy Cc: SteveB , Drew Eckhardt , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <000901c06be9$00910570$aa240018@cx443070b> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremiah Gowdy wrote: > > > Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. > > United States Code Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201 Subsection (f) > > My basic interpretation of this is, if you legally own a copy of the > software (firmware is software), you can legally reverse engineer the > software for the purpose of achiving interoperability. Therefore, if you > own a piece of hardware, and you have no driver for the hardware, or the I wonder, if this provision is overriden by the DMCCA (the new proposed and in some places adopted act on software copyrights) ? -SB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 12:19:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 12:19:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r24.bfm.org [216.127.220.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D081937B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA00379; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:18:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:18:06 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A bug in mmap? Message-ID: <20001223141806.A363@whizkidtech.net> References: <20001222112836.A239@whizkidtech.net> <20001222093512.L19572@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001222093512.L19572@fw.wintelcom.net>; from bright@wintelcom.net on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:35:13AM -0800 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 09:35:13AM -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Most likely a result of a bug in the msdosfs code, Quite possible. > perhaps you can >help track it down? I don't use msdosfs. :( I'll try... Adam -- When a finger points at the Moon... do you look at the Moon? Or, do you prefer to worship the finger? -- Unknown Zen Master To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 12:20: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 12:19:54 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B652137B402 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from beastie.localdomain ([24.19.158.41]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001223201937.QEZY17656.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@beastie.localdomain>; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:19:37 -0800 Received: (from brian@localhost) by beastie.localdomain (8.9.3/8.8.7) id MAA51374; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:22:38 -0800 From: "Brian O'Shea" To: opentrax@email.com Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Message-ID: <20001223122238.A24087@beastie.localdomain> Reply-To: boshea@ricochet.net Mail-Followup-To: opentrax@email.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com>; from opentrax@email.com on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:37:43PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:37:43PM -0800, opentrax@email.com wrote: > Thank you for your attention. > > Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. > The talk schedule is posted on: > http://www.svbug.com/events/ > I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD > 'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing > list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. > > The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. > Please note, I'm not here to flame or troll, just > ask questions. Your responses determine the tone > of all conversations. The tone of your initial post will more likely set the tone of this conversation. Try to be more objective when you find technical problems with security software that people trust. Saying "ssh - are you nuts?!?" is kind of like yelling "fire" in a theater. It makes you look like a troll (despite your claim that you are not), and it trivializes anything important that you might have to say. Because of your tone, it is unlikely that anyone here will take you seriously. This is a shame considering that you might have important issues to raise. Good luck on your talk, -brian -- Brian O'Shea boshea@ricochet.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 12:23: 5 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 12:23:02 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mailout03.sul.t-online.com (mailout03.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4BE437B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:23:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from fwd04.sul.t-online.com by mailout03.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 149vBz-0006LN-02; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:22:59 +0100 Received: from neutron.cichlids.com (520050424122-0001@[62.225.195.126]) by fmrl04.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 149vBo-0ydYf2C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:22:48 +0100 Received: from cichlids.cichlids.com (cichlids.cichlids.com [192.168.0.10]) by neutron.cichlids.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC662AB0C; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:23:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by cichlids.cichlids.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7C0C114A72; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:22:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:22:46 +0100 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Nik Clayton , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: int80h.org Message-ID: <20001223212246.G1011@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20001126231649.A278@whizkidtech.net> <20001127151802.A7983@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20001129171014.A318@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001129171014.A318@whizkidtech.net>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 05:10:14PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. From: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) X-Sender: 520050424122-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake G. Adam Stanislav (adam@whizkidtech.net): > swap space and memory even on a tiny little file. I have 8 Meg of > RAM and successfully run Photoshop, CorelDraw and other huge programs. > Yet, a simple file conversion program runs out of memory? Besides, > it claims CHAPTER is not permitted in a book. Weird. Maybe something is wrong and creates an infinite loop in the jade program. Would you share the .sgml file with us? We maybe could also solve the problem why CHAPTER isn't allowed. Thanks IA Alex -- cat: /home/alex/.sig: No such file or directory To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 13: 5:45 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 13:05:43 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59A237B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from billy-club.village.org (billy-club.village.org [10.0.0.3]) by rover.village.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBNL5fs46514; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:05:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@billy-club.village.org) Received: from billy-club.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by billy-club.village.org (8.11.1/8.8.3) with ESMTP id eBNL6xs58923; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:06:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200012232106.eBNL6xs58923@billy-club.village.org> To: alex@big.endian.de (Alexander Langer) Subject: Re: kvtop() on alpha question Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:57:32 +0100." <20001223145732.B49837@cichlids.cichlids.com> References: <20001223145732.B49837@cichlids.cichlids.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:06:59 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: imp@billy-club.village.org Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20001223145732.B49837@cichlids.cichlids.com> Alexander Langer writes: : How can the if_ed driver work on FreeBSD/Alpha, if it uses kvtop(), : but kvtop() is only defined in sys/i386/i386/vm_machdep.c? I don't think it can. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 13:36:23 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 13:36:21 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au [24.192.3.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A1337B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org (CPE-144-132-234-126.nsw.bigpond.net.au [144.132.234.126]) by sr14.nsw-remote.bigpond.net.au (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28214 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 08:35:06 +1100 (EDT) Received: (qmail 4184 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Dec 2000 21:35:05 -0000 From: "Andrew Reilly" Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 08:35:05 +1100 To: Mike Smith Cc: Sergey Babkin , heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium 4 Message-ID: <20001224083504.A4161@gurney.reilly.home> References: <3A43E22B.61A7A49C@bellatlantic.net> <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200012222338.eBMNcfj06065@mass.osd.bsdi.com>; from msmith@FreeBSD.ORG on Fri, Dec 22, 2000 at 03:38:41PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One big difference of the P4 is the SSE2 instructions and registers. It's now reasonable to ignore the old floating point stack altogether, and do floating point work with the SSE register file, getting the SIMD speed up where that's useful. (Because sse can now do doubles as well as floats.) However that depends on the OS doing the appropriate saves on the SSE register file on context switches. Do we do that (yet)? -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 14:15: 1 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 14:14:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.maxbw.com (typhoon.maxbw.com [64.242.216.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A9037B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from phantom (nic-163-c160-011.mn.mediaone.net [24.163.160.11]) by typhoon.maxbw.com (8.11.1/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eBNMEmr68832 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:14:56 -0600 (CST) From: "Rob Andrews" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:18:57 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Disposition-Notification-To: "Rob Andrews" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I'm having a problem with what seems to be the DPT raid card driver in FreeBSD 4.2 RELEASE. I've tried several times switching off options and finally I switched off the DPT driver all together so that I could just see if the kernel would compile. - --------- make depend ; make cc -elf -shared -nostdlib hack.c -o hack.So rm -f hack.c sh ../../conf/newvers.sh SWITCHBLADE cc -c -O -pipe -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs - -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline - -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -ansi -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. - -I../../../include -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf - -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 vers.c linking kernel dpt_scsi.o: In function `dptexecuteccb': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x71f): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_devq' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x7a4): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x8ec): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xa10): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_action': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xa47): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xb70): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_simq' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xd86): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_simq' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xf8b): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xf9d): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_attach': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x176d): undefined reference to `cam_simq_alloc' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x179f): undefined reference to `xpt_bus_deregister' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x17b5): undefined reference to `cam_sim_free' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1800): undefined reference to `cam_sim_alloc' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1817): undefined reference to `xpt_bus_register' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1841): undefined reference to `xpt_create_path' dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_intr': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1b91): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o: In function `dptprocesserror': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d05): undefined reference to `xpt_done' dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpttimeout': dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d2a): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d54): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' *** Error code 1 - ------ Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.. - -- Rob Andrews Sr. Network & Systems Admin Maximus Bandwidth, Inc. Minneapolis, MN. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBOkUkyd1S25z1TVJkEQL27wCgxo7Y8pPyBJFirj8dX8O9apNEv4sAn2l/ q8CMHLE2QCcwCbDwbcXtE+pJ =zM0/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 14:39:26 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 14:39:23 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from minerva.springer.cx (cgmd77002.chello.nl [212.83.77.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8149D37B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 14:39:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 85077 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2000 23:39:26 -0000 Received: from aurum.rinkspringer.org (HELO aurum) (172.16.0.2) by minerva.springer.cx with SMTP; 23 Dec 2000 23:39:26 -0000 Message-ID: <000c01c06d95$bb2a9a60$020010ac@aurum> From: "Rink Springer" To: "Rob Andrews" , References: Subject: Re: Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:39:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Have you added the scbus and da devices? I think you need them, seeing the cam_xxx stuff undefined. --Rink ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Andrews" To: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 11:18 PM > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hello, > > I'm having a problem with what seems to be the DPT raid card driver > in FreeBSD 4.2 RELEASE. > > I've tried several times switching off options and finally I switched > off the DPT driver all together so that I could just see if the > kernel would compile. > > - --------- make depend ; make > > cc -elf -shared -nostdlib hack.c -o hack.So > rm -f hack.c > sh ../../conf/newvers.sh SWITCHBLADE > cc -c -O -pipe -Wall -Wredundant-decls -Wnested-externs > - -Wstrict-prototypes -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Winline > - -Wcast-qual -fformat-extensions -ansi -nostdinc -I- -I. -I../.. > - -I../../../include -D_KERNEL -include opt_global.h -elf > - -mpreferred-stack-boundary=2 vers.c > linking kernel > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dptexecuteccb': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x71f): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_devq' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x7a4): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x8ec): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xa10): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_action': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xa47): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xb70): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_simq' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xd86): undefined reference to `xpt_freeze_simq' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xf8b): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0xf9d): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_attach': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x176d): undefined reference to `cam_simq_alloc' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x179f): undefined reference to `xpt_bus_deregister' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x17b5): undefined reference to `cam_sim_free' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1800): undefined reference to `cam_sim_alloc' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1817): undefined reference to `xpt_bus_register' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1841): undefined reference to `xpt_create_path' > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpt_intr': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1b91): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dptprocesserror': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d05): undefined reference to `xpt_done' > dpt_scsi.o: In function `dpttimeout': > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d2a): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' > dpt_scsi.o(.text+0x1d54): undefined reference to `xpt_print_path' > *** Error code 1 > > - ------ > > Any help or suggestions would be appreciated.. > > - -- > Rob Andrews > Sr. Network & Systems Admin > Maximus Bandwidth, Inc. > Minneapolis, MN. > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use > > iQA/AwUBOkUkyd1S25z1TVJkEQL27wCgxo7Y8pPyBJFirj8dX8O9apNEv4sAn2l/ > q8CMHLE2QCcwCbDwbcXtE+pJ > =zM0/ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 15: 2:28 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:02:24 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463337B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA686990; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:01:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200012231011.CAA21457@spammie.svbug.com> References: <200012231011.CAA21457@spammie.svbug.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 18:01:33 -0500 To: opentrax@email.com From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? Cc: freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:11 AM -0800 12/23/00, opentrax@email.com wrote: >On 22 Dec, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > People in the "FreeBSD community" are invited to read the >> rambling and pointless discussions that this sparked in >> the OpenBSD and NetBSD communities before repeating all >> those arguments in all the freebsd mailing lists. >> >> If you still think you have something to say which wasn't > > said in those threads, well, have fun at it. >> > I'm not sure where you gather your information, but >but other mailing list have been very helpful about this >subject. As matter of fact, the harshes critics to date >have been from OpenBSD. I'm not sure if we are both >reading the same material. a. I am part of the openbsd community too, although I am much more of a lurker there. You have your opinion of how well the thread went there, I have mine. b. All I said was that it would be a good idea for people to read the other threads before commenting. There is no sense repeating arguments which have already been presented. Assuming you are just collecting ideas for some presentation, you already have those ideas. There is no need to have them repeated here. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 15:11:43 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:11:42 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r19.bfm.org [216.127.220.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4251937B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA00256; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:10:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 17:09:24 -0600 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Alexander Langer Cc: Nik Clayton , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: int80h.org Message-ID: <20001223170924.A240@whizkidtech.net> References: <20001126231649.A278@whizkidtech.net> <20001127151802.A7983@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20001129171014.A318@whizkidtech.net> <20001223212246.G1011@cichlids.cichlids.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20001223212246.G1011@cichlids.cichlids.com>; from alex@big.endian.de on Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 09:22:46PM +0100 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Castle: http://www.redprince.net/ X-Special-Effects: http://www.FilmSFX.com/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Dec 23, 2000 at 09:22:46PM +0100, Alexander Langer wrote: >Would you share the .sgml file with us? We maybe could also solve the >problem why CHAPTER isn't allowed. Thanks for the offer, but I have since rewritten it in HTML, so I no longer have the .sgml file. Adam -- "Let's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we may diet" -- Seen on a dining room wall... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 15:40:30 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 15:40:28 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from brutus.conectiva.com.br (brutus.conectiva.com.br [200.250.58.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D98337B402 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by brutus.conectiva.com.br (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id eBNNe7f24601; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:40:11 -0200 X-Authentication-Warning: duckman.distro.conectiva: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:40:07 -0200 (BRDT) From: Rik van Riel X-Sender: riel@duckman.distro.conectiva To: Murray Stokely Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Murray Stokely wrote: > I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can > then be used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > trade shows, published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. Haha ;) With an attitude like that, you'd be hard-pressed to convert people to *BSD, which is a shame IMHO, because both *BSD and Linux have lots of good things to offer and (still) have some different strong and weak points... And since both systems are good and freely available with open development - but with a slightly different style - I think it would be better to try and get each user to use the system (s)he likes best, instead of discouraging people from finding the best free unix for their situation. regards, Rik -- Hollywood goes for world dumbination, Trailer at 11. http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com.br/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 16:57:18 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 16:57:16 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from virtual.valuelinx.net (virtual.valuelinx.net [208.189.209.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D355537B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from penix.org (Toronto-ppp221370.sympatico.ca [64.228.106.187]) by virtual.valuelinx.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA31726 for ; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:57:11 GMT Message-ID: <3A454BDE.E245CD4@penix.org> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:05:34 -0500 From: Paul Halliday X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Keyboard problemo solved. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi. Thanks for the suggestion on the fuse. There is in fact a fuse, 125v 3A, direct line fuse soldered to the mb. After checking around for continuity around the plug this was easy to find. I grabbed an old 486, soldered off a working one, then back to the p133. Voila! Thanks for all of the suggestions, my gateway is back in action. :) -- Paul H. ============================================================================ Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. Brute force is the last resort of the incompetent. GPG Key fingerprint: 2D7C A7E2 DB1F EA5F 8C6F D5EC 3D39 F274 4AA3 E8B9 Web: http://www3.sympatico.ca/transmogrify Public Key available here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/transmogrify/dp.txt ============================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 19:38:22 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 19:38:20 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64E937B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:38:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from cx443070b ([24.0.36.170]) by femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with SMTP id <20001224033819.CYBF29808.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com@cx443070b>; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:38:19 -0800 Message-ID: <001d01c06d5b$475e7c80$aa240018@cx443070b> From: "Jeremiah Gowdy" To: "Rik van Riel" , "Murray Stokely" Cc: References: Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:40:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik van Riel" To: "Murray Stokely" Cc: Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 3:40 PM Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT > On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Murray Stokely wrote: > > > I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can > > then be used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > trade shows, published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. > > Haha ;) > > With an attitude like that, you'd be hard-pressed to convert > people to *BSD, which is a shame IMHO, because both *BSD and > Linux have lots of good things to offer and (still) have some > different strong and weak points... > > And since both systems are good and freely available with open > development - but with a slightly different style - I think it > would be better to try and get each user to use the system (s)he > likes best, instead of discouraging people from finding the best > free unix for their situation. FreeBSD advocacy is prefectly alright. And there's nothing wrong with calling them Linux weenies in FreeBSD circles :) I usually don't even say it that nicely when I'm referring to the more rabid Linux "weenies": "Linux is better than anything, it is the greatest OS that ever lives, and it is faster than FreeBSD even though I have no knowledge of any kind to support this. Linus is my living deity and savior and, in fact, he's Jesus reborn. When judgement day comes, those who've forsworn Linux will experience the hell-fire and damnnation that is OS/2 !!!!" Those are the kind of Linux people I dislike. Calmer people, rational people, intelligent people, are often reasonable enough to simply be shown FreeBSD, and they will comment on the merits of FreeBSD themselves. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 21:16:39 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 21:16:36 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from cs.utep.edu (mail.cs.utep.edu [129.108.5.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D45837B402; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 21:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from gecko (gecko [129.108.5.51]) by cs.utep.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eBO5GPc09576; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:16:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:16:26 -0700 (MST) From: X-Sender: Cc: , Subject: Re: fd1720 In-Reply-To: <20001223121535.B621@tao.org.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On the same token, I have tried to get a (possibly used) 2.88 MB Floppy drive for some time. It seems to me that even though all floppy controllers support these babies, nobody makes them. There are one or two places that seem to offer old supplies, but to ridiculous prices. FreeBSD comes with a bootimage for 2.88 MB drives, so it would be nice to me to find one of these babies. Has any body had experiences with this? JAnx To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 22: 9:58 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 22:09:55 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC0DE37B400; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A4QX-0000Y6-00; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:14:37 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A45944D.F9E9AB66@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:14:37 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: opentrax@email.com Cc: freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ssh - are you nuts?!? References: <200012222337.PAA20885@spammie.svbug.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG opentrax@email.com wrote: > > Thank you for your attention. > > Next month I'm giving a talk about the evils of SSH. > The talk schedule is posted on: > http://www.svbug.com/events/ > I've already circulated this message to the OpenBSD > 'tech' mailing list and the NetBSD 'security' mailing > list. Now, I've like to hear from the FreeBSD community. > > The question asked is: why you believe ssh is beter > than say telnet. Or what advantages SSH has in general. The simple fact that it doesn't transmit passwords in clear text? This is one of the stupidest trolls I've ever found, and is completely inappropriate for freebsd-security. Try over on -chat. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 22:37:47 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 22:37:44 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from rodney.cnchost.com (rodney.concentric.net [207.155.252.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B0837B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from buffy (w072.z064003114.lax-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.3.114.72]) by rodney.cnchost.com id BAA27505; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 01:37:43 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Errors-To: From: "SteveB" To: Subject: RE: FreeBSD vs. Linux, Solaris, and NT Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:39:40 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <001d01c06d5b$475e7c80$aa240018@cx443070b> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Name calling is starting to backfire on the Linux community and there is no reason to drag the 'BSD community down the same path. Some of the journalist in the Linux world are realizing the amount of energy being wasted slamming MS and anything non-Linux. New comers to Linux are getting intimidated hearing the constant trash talk. It's far more productive to talk about why 'BSD is better. Think about the meetings you go to and who you usually tune out. I bet it's the person always griping and never offering a solution. Steve B. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of > Jeremiah Gowdy > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 7:41 PM > To: Rik van Riel; Murray Stokely > Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rik van Riel" > To: "Murray Stokely" > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 3:40 PM > Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT > > > > On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Murray Stokely wrote: > > > > > I want to create a comprehensive body of knowledge that can > > > then be used to make fliers to hand out to Linux weenies at > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > trade shows, published on bsdi.com and/or freebsd.org, etc.. > > > > Haha ;) > > > > With an attitude like that, you'd be hard-pressed to convert > > people to *BSD, which is a shame IMHO, because both *BSD and > > Linux have lots of good things to offer and (still) have some > > different strong and weak points... > > > > And since both systems are good and freely available with open > > development - but with a slightly different style - I think it > > would be better to try and get each user to use the system (s)he > > likes best, instead of discouraging people from finding the best > > free unix for their situation. > > FreeBSD advocacy is prefectly alright. > > And there's nothing wrong with calling them Linux weenies > in FreeBSD circles > :) I usually don't even say it that nicely when I'm > referring to the more > rabid Linux "weenies": "Linux is better than anything, it > is the greatest > OS that ever lives, and it is faster than FreeBSD even > though I have no > knowledge of any kind to support this. Linus is my living > deity and savior > and, in fact, he's Jesus reborn. When judgement day comes, > those who've > forsworn Linux will experience the hell-fire and damnnation > that is OS/2 > !!!!" > > Those are the kind of Linux people I dislike. Calmer > people, rational > people, intelligent people, are often reasonable enough to > simply be shown > FreeBSD, and they will comment on the merits of FreeBSD themselves. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 23: 2:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:02:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B670337B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A5Fz-0000ZE-00; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:07:48 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A45A0C3.8FC18D7F@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:07:47 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Eckhardt Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <200012220021.eBM0Luh12696@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Eckhardt wrote: > > In message <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com>, dennis@etinc.co > m writes: > >Yes but most commercial uses take advantage of the binary distribution > >capability of the BSD license AFTER they've poured their corporate dollars > >into enhancements. With linux you have to give your work away, making it > >much less useful. > > To be pedantic, you only need to provide source for works derived > from GPL'd software which in this case means the kernel propper. User > land applications and device drivers may be shipped in binary-only > form because they are separate works, even when distributed in > aggregation with GPL'd software. That depends on the type of "aggregation". If you produce a single-purpose device, like an "internet radio", the entire device has a single purpose, therefore every part of the device is "derived from" every other part. That means, if you use GPL'ed software in such a device, you have to provide source for every line of code, and perhaps schematics or gerbers for the circuits and VHDL for your ASICs as well. Doesn't that just make you want to run out and stuff Linux in your multi- million development dollar routing switch now? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 23: 6: 0 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:05:58 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350C437B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A5Im-0000ZK-00; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:10:40 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A45A170.5F3FD1D8@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:10:40 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Dillon Cc: Dennis , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001220192150.01f42450@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221120837.022ab0a0@mail.etinc.com> <5.0.0.25.0.20001221184852.03ceab10@mail.etinc.com> <200012220029.eBM0TxE82553@earth.backplane.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Dillon wrote: > > In that respect, I personally will not run anything inside my kernel that > I don't have source for. Now, I don't run frame-relay or T1's into > FreeBSD boxes, so I'm not commenting on your software specifically. I'm > commenting in general. The problem is not only support, but also > protection against obsolescence. Companies upgrade their products, > companies go out of business, companies stop supporting products. > Without source you can wind up S.O.L. with a binary-only device driver. > It's just too risky for me. Due diligence. Any company you buy critical software from should have the source code to the software escrowed, with written policies they will show you outlining how they archive the source code and the tools required to build it into the escrow. If they don't, you shouldn't be doing business with them. Open source projects place the onerous of providing a reasonable escrow on the consumer. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 23: 8:13 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:08:11 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5A137B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:08:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A5Ko-0000ZM-00; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:12:46 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A45A1EE.30138FDE@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:12:46 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marco van de Voort Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT References: <20001222084324.181F596EC@toad.stack.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marco van de Voort wrote: > > [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > > > Trouble is there is no consistency in the rulings. > > > > United States Code Title 17 Chapter 12 Section 1201 Subsection (f) > > > > My basic interpretation of this is, if you legally own a copy of the > > software (firmware is software), you can legally reverse engineer the > > software for the purpose of achiving interoperability. Therefore, if you > > own a piece of hardware, and you have no driver for the hardware, or the > > driver provided is not acceptable, you have the right to reverse engineer > > the firmware in order to write your own driver, thereby achiving > > interoperability. > > Exactly the same in Europe, only the sharing parts are new for me. > The difference seems to be: > The problem is that in the US, it is legal to override this with the > licensing conditions. In Europe this right is inalienable. No, it's not legal to override this with licensing conditions, but software companies keep trying to do so. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 23:23:51 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:23:49 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from homer.softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8EB137B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=softweyr.com ident=Fools trust ident!) by homer.softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14A5a8-0000ZY-00; Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:28:36 -0700 Sender: wes@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <3A45A5A4.784ABF34@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:28:36 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Eckhardt Cc: SteveB , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting on hands (no longer Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT) References: <200012212014.eBLKEfh12072@chopper.Poohsticks.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Eckhardt wrote: > > In message , admin@bsdfan > .cncdsl.com writes: > >Here's the thing about open software that still concerns me. My > >background is with the major software development tools companies, so > >that is my point of reference. It is great that code is available and > >fixes are made and pushed out, but who is doing real testing of these > >fixes. Sure the obvious problem is fixed, but what other problems has > >it uncovered, what side effect has it created, and how about > >compatibility with other software or drivers in this case. > > > >With commercial software (well at least the places I worked) nothing > >could go out the door without a complete QA cycle performed on it. > > In a past life, I did half the design and implementation of the > software tracking calls and letting the billing software know > about them on a CDMA cellular base station. > > For hardware, we used machines from the biggest workstation vendor > with a three letter name, running the latest production release of > their Unix. > > Before booting the putz from our team who'd crippled our software > with threads and excised the damage he'd done, we regularly dumped the > machines out to the ROM monitor. > > I know people who work in several operating systems groups at that > company, know a bit about their quality control process, and know that > it was insufficient. > > I've yet to encounter a bug of that severity in any released version > of free software I have. OpenBSD 2.7 release, PostgreSQL 6.5.3 from the OBSD port, and a transparent proxy accessing the database. Do something stupid, smash the stack in the proxy process, panic the kernel every time the user tries to read email. Clever programmers can crash any system. ;^) I'm enjoying this discussion, and getting a lot of fodder for this month's column, but there seems to be a running undercurrent in the discussion that isn't coming to the forefront: commercial companies have formal QA staff because their development staff either can't or won't do the QA themselves. Open source projects -- I am most familiar with FreeBSD, then OpenBSD -- do a far better job of having other talented programmers review ALL of the changes to the system, either before or after the commit, than any commercial organization I've been a part of. At best, the "formal QA" teams in these places are a poor substitute for having a wide-ranging group of programmers working on the system review each others work. The lack of "time to market" demands is one of many sociological factors that contribute to make open source software better than commercial efforts. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Dec 23 23:31:37 2000 From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Dec 23 23:31:35 2000 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (unknown [206.169.4.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405A937B400 for ; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA21021; Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:34:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:34:08 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Wes Peters Cc: Drew Eckhardt , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT In-Reply-To: <3A45A0C3.8FC18D7F@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 24 Dec 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > To be pedantic, you only need to provide source for works derived > > from GPL'd software which in this case means the kernel propper. User > > land applications and device drivers may be shipped in binary-only > > form because they are separate works, even when distributed in > > aggregation with GPL'd software. > > That depends on the type of "aggregation". If you produce a single-purpose > device, like an "internet radio", the entire device has a single purpose, > therefore every part of the device is "derived from" every other part. WTF are you talking about? Derived work is the result of modification of the original, not just something dependent on its functionality. > That > means, if you use GPL'ed software in such a device, you have to provide > source for every line of code, and perhaps schematics or gerbers for the > circuits and VHDL for your ASICs as well. This is simply not true -- unless your hardware is the result of modification of GPL'ed program, something that I don't expect to see any soon, as so far no hardware ever was GPL'ed in the first place. > Doesn't that just make you want to run out and stuff Linux in your multi- > million development dollar routing switch now? No, it just makes me wonder, what is the purpose of those ridiculous claims. -- Alex ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie! -- Anonymous Coward To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message