From owner-freebsd-i18n Tue Oct 17 23: 1:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from iterative.iteration.net (termroom.bsdcon.org [206.55.247.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0BCE37B4F9; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from keichii@localhost) by iterative.iteration.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9I614U01488; Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:01:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from keichii) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:01:03 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: BSDCon I18N Meeting on Wednesday night Message-ID: <20001018010103.A1276@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD iterative.iteration.net 5.0-20000815-CURRENT FreeBSD 5.0-20000815-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I talked to Warner Losh tonight and we agreed that we should have a Internationalization/Localization meeting on Wednesday night 8-9pm at BSDCon. Please check the message board at the conference center 1st floor. Michael, -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 1:32:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0B9037B479; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0EA325730B; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:32:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:32:53 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: i18n@freebsd.org Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals Message-ID: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At the BSDCon I18N BOF, we discussed several things that could/should happen with the future of I18N(internationalization) in FreeBSD. We would like some inputs and comments regarding the following: * Moving to message catalogue style error messages for the kernel and userland. (AIX style) Each time the system outputs an error either from the kernel or userland, the error message is a formatted alphanumerica string mapped to verbose error messages. The error messages can be mapped to various languages. The advantages are : A. Easy bug reporting by users. (e.g. "I have error 2398423") B. I18N error messages The main disadvantage is that it will be a long term work to maintain it and to keep error messages updated. 1. The future of sysinstall (or whatever should replace it) The future installer/management utility should be able to handle arbitrary character sets. In other words, it should be able to display Chinese/Japanese/etc. with user selection. To be discussed. 2. Needing a graphics console to display various character sets. There should be a kernel or loader option to start a graphics console by default. 3. Itojun mentioned that the CITRUS Japanese people will be able to import the wchar* and libxpg4 changes soon. 4. ports//auto-l10n Auto-localization port It will be like ports/x11/gnome and depend on all necessary ports. The user will be able to choose what kind of applications s/he requires, like the old Apache ports. 5. Produce /usr/share/skel/ that allow admin to specify the default language for the users login.conf bla bla bla 6. All language development groups should coordinate efforts in order to not reinvent wheels. Suggest using i18n@freebsd.org 7. Documentation should have an automatic implementation of notifying various language documentation groups to update changes. This allows for quick changes to translated efforts. 8. waiting for ICONV from Konstantine I am willing to coordinate these things, but I would like some help. ;) Thanks, Michael -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 5:15:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from bsdvm.jtjang.idv.tw (121.c74.ethome.net.tw [210.58.74.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F28337B4C5; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from keith@localhost) by bsdvm.jtjang.idv.tw (8.11.1/8.9.3) id e9JCEJI00693; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:14:19 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from keith) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:14:18 +0800 From: Jing-Tang Keith Jang To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals Message-ID: <20001019201418.A592@bsdvm.jtjang.idv.tw> Reply-To: keith@freebsd.sinica.edu.tw Mail-Followup-To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 03:32:53AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD bsdvm.jtjang.idv.tw 4.1.1-STABLE FreeBSD 4.1.1-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10/19/00, Michael C . Wu wrote: > 3. Itojun mentioned that the CITRUS Japanese people will be able > to import the wchar* and libxpg4 changes soon. This is great! I believe many developers have spent too much unnecessary time dealing with wchar.h. Is there a timeline yet? BTW, are there any plans bringing language information into the system? ie. nl_langinfo.h & nl_types.h, which are defined in the Single Unix Spec 2. From what I saw in the Citrus cvs, it seems that they have done the NetBSD part, but neither FreeBSD nor OpenBSD. > 4. ports//auto-l10n Auto-localization port > It will be like ports/x11/gnome and depend on all necessary > ports. The user will be able to choose what kind of applications > s/he requires, like the old Apache ports. This one gonna be controversial. :-) > 8. waiting for ICONV from Konstantine Does this mean that there will be a consistent filesystem interface? -- Keep it simple and stupid. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 10:18:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A31F37B4D7; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07657; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:15:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyQaGNo; Thu Oct 19 10:14:46 2000 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06915; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:17:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200010191717.KAA06915@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals To: keichii@peorth.iteration.net Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:17:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> from "Michael C . Wu" at Oct 19, 2000 03:32:53 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > * Moving to message catalogue style error messages for the kernel and > userland. (AIX style) Each time the system outputs an error > either from the kernel or userland, the error message is a > formatted alphanumerica string mapped to verbose error messages. > The error messages can be mapped to various languages. > The advantages are : > A. Easy bug reporting by users. (e.g. "I have error 2398423") > B. I18N error messages > > The main disadvantage is that it will be a long term work > to maintain it and to keep error messages updated. I have a tool which uses a macro preprocessor and macros to do the majority of this work. It extracts messages from programs which have macro wrapped their I/O strings, and can automatically create XPG/4 message catalogs from them. I wrote this tool on my own time, but it has additions for supporting "ccat" (An InterJet specific non-XPG/4 locale data format). I could either rip these out, or leave them in, which might mean that I have to try to get Whistle's permission to release the code, if they consider the file format to be either proprietary or a trade secret. This is complicated by the fact that I haven't worked at Whistle/IBM for the last month. I can provide a version with the Whistle stuff ripped out in a week or so, if that's considered desirable, but would prefer to leave the code alone. Doing it this way will have a latency in however long it takes them to get back to me, though, so it might be better to burn the time to rip out the Whistle stuff. Right now, this preprocessor is only useful on code that has the ability to have functions or macros of the format "foo((...))", so it should work on C C+, Pascal, or Ada, but not much else. It doesn't recognize block "#idef OMIT" style omission, and it does not recognize C++ style comments, but I consider both of these to be features. Language support is easy to add, but requires that you have a simple language parser so that you can know the parse state when it sees a token that it likes (i.e. it nees to know what to ignore, and when). I applied this to Matt Dillon's public domain "BESTSERV" code in order to support Japanese, and it worked with no problems (but I had to add RFC2045 and RFC2047 to BESTSERV at the same time, so it's not too general an example of minimal changes). If it can't open the catalog file, it falls back to the strings specified in the code. Effectively, these are "C locale" strings, and you could then derive seperate "en_US" locales from them (and would, if you were smart, if you had UI people mucking with the contents of your strings for usability reasons). Let me know if there is any interest in the pre/post-processor code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 11:38:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from daemon.solid.se (daemon.solid.se [193.15.190.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA91F37B4CF; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.granlund.nu (t1o90p1.telia.com [195.67.216.1]) (authenticated) by daemon.solid.se (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9JIckm12084; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:38:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (johan@localhost) by phoenix.granlund.nu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id e9JIcl744203; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:38:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:38:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Johan Granlund To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals In-Reply-To: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: > At the BSDCon I18N BOF, we discussed several things that could/should > happen with the future of I18N(internationalization) in FreeBSD. > We would like some inputs and comments regarding the following: > > 2. Needing a graphics console to display various character sets. > There should be a kernel or loader option to start > a graphics console by default. > The magic word is option :) We have to be careful to not loose the ability to boot a bare-bone system if / when having problems. I _still_ like VAX/VMS ability to be "talked" up thru the boot process. /Johan > > I am willing to coordinate these things, but I would like > some help. ;) > > Thanks, > > Michael > > -- > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | > | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 12:22:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8600A37B4CF; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 7C5625730B; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:22:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:22:52 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Terry Lambert Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals Message-ID: <20001019142252.A33954@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> <200010191717.KAA06915@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200010191717.KAA06915@usr08.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:17:38PM +0000 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 05:17:38PM +0000, Terry Lambert scribbled: | > * Moving to message catalogue style error messages for the kernel and | > userland. (AIX style) Each time the system outputs an error | > either from the kernel or userland, the error message is a | > formatted alphanumerica string mapped to verbose error messages. | > The error messages can be mapped to various languages. | > The advantages are : | > A. Easy bug reporting by users. (e.g. "I have error 2398423") | > B. I18N error messages | > | > The main disadvantage is that it will be a long term work | > to maintain it and to keep error messages updated. | | | I have a tool which uses a macro preprocessor and macros to do | the majority of this work. It extracts messages from programs | which have macro wrapped their I/O strings, and can automatically | create XPG/4 message catalogs from them. | | I wrote this tool on my own time, but it has additions for | I can provide a version with the Whistle stuff ripped out in a | week or so, if that's considered desirable, but would prefer to | leave the code alone. Doing it this way will have a latency in Please send me the code. :) We would to have as much as possible. | Let me know if there is any interest in the pre/post-processor | code. Yes, I would be interested and wish to see it. :) Thanks, Michael -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 12:26:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E785937B4F9; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id EB4D85730B; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:26:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:26:39 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: current@freebsd.org, i18n@freebsd.org Subject: I18N Paper URL Message-ID: <20001019142639.B33954@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~mwu/{presentation.ps,i18n.*} This is our paper presented at BSDCon. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 12:36:51 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from misato.mk.bsdclub.org (termroom.bsdcon.org [206.55.247.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EFD37B479; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misato.mk.bsdclub.org (localhost.mk.bsdclub.org [127.0.0.1]) by misato.mk.bsdclub.org (8.11.1/3.7W) with ESMTP id e9JHljY09298; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 02:47:45 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200010191747.e9JHljY09298@misato.mk.bsdclub.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: i18n@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals From: Motoyuki Konno X-Mailer: mh-e on Mule 2.3 / Emacs 19.34.1 References: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:47:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > 1. The future of sysinstall (or whatever should replace it) > The future installer/management utility should be > able to handle arbitrary character sets. > In other words, it should be able to display Chinese/Japanese/etc. > with user selection. To be discussed. There is a difficulty in multilingual install floppy: size limitation that comes from floppy disk size (1.44M). The font file of Chinese, Japanese, Korean are very big. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Motoyuki Konno motoyuki@bsdclub.org (Home) motoyuki@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Project) http://www.freebsd.org/~motoyuki/ (WWW) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 13:11: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from starfruit.itojun.org (termroom.bsdcon.org [206.55.247.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775B537B4C5; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by starfruit.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E5EF7E46; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:08:29 +0900 (JST) To: hosokawa@freebsd.org Cc: i18n@freebsd.org Subject: multilingual sysinstall X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:08:29 +0900 Message-Id: <20001019200829.9E5EF7E46@starfruit.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >1. The future of sysinstall (or whatever should replace it) > The future installer/management utility should be > able to handle arbitrary character sets. > In other words, it should be able to display Chinese/Japanese/etc. > with user selection. To be discussed. hello,could you tell us a little bit about korean/japanese/... sysinstall? - how you have made korean/japanese/... sysinstall kon2 + font flie? - how did you deal with message files - future plans itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 13:12: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from starfruit.itojun.org (termroom.bsdcon.org [206.55.247.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CA8637B657; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from itojun.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by starfruit.itojun.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C657E46; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:10:00 +0900 (JST) To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: i18n@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: keichii's message of Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:32:53 EST. <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals From: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:10:00 +0900 Message-Id: <20001019201000.30C657E46@starfruit.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >3. Itojun mentioned that the CITRUS Japanese people will be able > to import the wchar* and libxpg4 changes soon. the code is there, but as i talked, we need more manpower for babysitting. cvs -d :pserver:anoncvs@citrus.bsdclub.org:/anoncvs/citrus co -P xpg4dl itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 13:16:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (winston.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.27.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 709C637B4C5; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e9JKGCA72699; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com) To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals In-Reply-To: Message from "Michael C . Wu" of "Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:32:53 CDT." <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:16:12 -0700 Message-ID: <72695.971986572@winston.osd.bsdi.com> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The advantages are : > A. Easy bug reporting by users. (e.g. "I have error 2398423") > B. I18N error messages Let me just say, as someone who's done "escalation tech support" for major ISVs (the people who get called whenever front-line tech support is confronted with a "I have error 2398423" question), that this can also be a tremendous pain in the butt when done wrong. Done wrong, a message catalog-using program will emit cryptic numeric errors whenever a message catalog file cannot be found or is corrupted. Done right, the program is written in such a way as to contain a default message which can also be overridden from the message catalog file if some different text is found in the appropriate language. I believe this is the way that catgets(3) currently works, but you'd be amazed how many programmers just skip providing a default message since the appropriate message catalog is always found on *their* system. There's also nothing more unreadable than code which tests a failure condition and then calls a message catalog routine with some numeric constant, the actual text of the error message being an aid to the programmer as well as the user when reading someone else's code and trying to figure out what varioups parts of it are trying to do. This isn't meant as a general criticism of your points at all, just a cautionary note. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 16:55: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from serio.al.rim.or.jp (serio.al.rim.or.jp [202.247.191.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EC737B4C5 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.rim.or.jp by serio.al.rim.or.jp (3.7W/HMX-13) id IAA05464; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:54:55 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost.FromTo.Cc (shell [202.247.191.98]) by mail2.rim.or.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) id IAA21551; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:54:53 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:54:52 +0900 Message-ID: <86em1cpesz.wl@ringo.FromTo.Cc> From: Tatsumi Hosokawa To: itojun@iijlab.net Cc: hosokawa@sm.rim.or.jp, i18n@freebsd.org Subject: Re: multilingual sysinstall In-Reply-To: In your message of "Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:08:29 +0900" <20001019200829.9E5EF7E46@starfruit.itojun.org> References: <20001019200829.9E5EF7E46@starfruit.itojun.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/1.1.0 (Overjoyed) SEMI/1.13.7 (Awazu) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 9) (Canyonlands) (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.13.7 - "Awazu") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good morning! I'm very sorry to absent from BSDCon because of non-computer virus attacked me very very worse than troj_mtx :-). At Fri, 20 Oct 2000 05:08:29 +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > >1. The future of sysinstall (or whatever should replace it) > > The future installer/management utility should be > > able to handle arbitrary character sets. > > In other words, it should be able to display Chinese/Japanese/etc. > > with user selection. To be discussed. > > hello,could you tell us a little bit about korean/japanese/... > sysinstall? > - how you have made korean/japanese/... sysinstall > kon2 + font flie? If there's libvgl-based multilingual console or multilingual sysinstall, I'll use this of course, but there's not such stuff, and I have had no time to write it. sysinstall fork-and-exec's kon2 and redirect console output to kon2 via pty. > - how did you deal with message files There were changes between 4.1.1 multilingual sysinstall and 3.x/2.x ones. But both uses non-standard way because of historical reason. If somebody can rewrite it in standard way (if there's standard way in FreeBSD), we prefer it than current implementation. Current implementation is pre-alpha status and available at http://people.FreeBSD.org/boot-ja/ and latest one is at http://people.FreeBSD.org/~hosokawa/boot-ja/release-20001019-2/ If you type "make updatesysinstall" at release/localization/catalog, it semi-automatically updates catalog files and prepare skeleton catalog for new message newly introduced to release/sysinstall/*.c. Messages in release/sysinstall/*.c are stored in release/localization/{ja,ko}/*_c.txt and compiled in one catalog file when you executed "make boot.flp" or of course "make release", > - future plans o merge into -current and MFC to 4-stable, o implement libvgl-based console or multilingual syscons, o convert catalog model to FreeBSD-standard framework, o implement European language version, etc. Thanks. -- Tatsumi Hosokawa http://www.sm.rim.or.jp/~hosokawa/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 17: 1:59 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from serio.al.rim.or.jp (serio.al.rim.or.jp [202.247.191.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F245E37B4F9 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.rim.or.jp by serio.al.rim.or.jp (3.7W/HMX-13) id JAA05929; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:01:44 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost.FromTo.Cc (shell [202.247.191.98]) by mail2.rim.or.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) id JAA22496; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:01:43 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:01:42 +0900 Message-ID: <86d7gwpehl.wl@ringo.FromTo.Cc> From: Tatsumi Hosokawa To: itojun@iijlab.net, i18n@freebsd.org Cc: hosokawa@sm.rim.or.jp Subject: Re: multilingual sysinstall In-Reply-To: In your message of "Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:54:52 +0900" <86em1cpesz.wl@ringo.FromTo.Cc> References: <20001019200829.9E5EF7E46@starfruit.itojun.org> <86em1cpesz.wl@ringo.FromTo.Cc> User-Agent: Wanderlust/1.1.0 (Overjoyed) SEMI/1.13.7 (Awazu) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 9) (Canyonlands) (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.13.7 - "Awazu") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Fri, 20 Oct 2000 08:54:52 +0900, Tatsumi Hosokawa wrote: > > Current implementation is pre-alpha status and available at > http://people.FreeBSD.org/boot-ja/ and latest one is at Oops! It's http://people.FreeBSD.org/~hosokawa/boot-ja/ Sorry. > http://people.FreeBSD.org/~hosokawa/boot-ja/release-20001019-2/ -- Tatsumi Hosokawa http://www.sm.rim.or.jp/~hosokawa/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Oct 19 17:16:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from afs.itc.keio.ac.jp (afs.itc.keio.ac.jp [131.113.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C71037B479 for ; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5718 invoked from network); 20 Oct 2000 00:16:14 -0000 Received: from dhcp03.itc.keio.ac.jp (HELO localhost.FromTo.Cc) (131.113.212.123) by afs.itc.keio.ac.jp with SMTP; 20 Oct 2000 00:16:14 -0000 Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:16:14 +0900 Message-ID: <86bswgpdtd.wl@ringo.FromTo.Cc> From: Tatsumi Hosokawa To: motoyuki@bsdclub.org Cc: keichii@peorth.iteration.net, i18n@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, hosokawa@sm.rim.or.jp Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals In-Reply-To: In your message of "Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:47:45 -0700" <200010191747.e9JHljY09298@misato.mk.bsdclub.org> References: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> <200010191747.e9JHljY09298@misato.mk.bsdclub.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/1.1.0 (Overjoyed) SEMI/1.13.7 (Awazu) FLIM/1.13.2 (Kasanui) MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 9) (Canyonlands) (i386--freebsd) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.13.7 - "Awazu") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:47:45 -0700, Motoyuki Konno wrote: > > "Michael C . Wu" wrote: > > 1. The future of sysinstall (or whatever should replace it) > > The future installer/management utility should be > > able to handle arbitrary character sets. > > In other words, it should be able to display Chinese/Japanese/etc. > > with user selection. To be discussed. > > There is a difficulty in multilingual install floppy: size limitation > that comes from floppy disk size (1.44M). The font file of Chinese, > Japanese, Korean are very big. But 4.1.1 multilingual boot.flp (htpp://people.FreeBSD.org/~hosokawa/boot-ja/) shrinks font files into 20-30KB for each language (Japanese and Korean). In fact, the size of help files and message catalog is fatal in size limitation rather than the font size. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Oct 20 10:30:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from educampus.ncl.edu.tw (educampus.ncl.edu.tw [140.111.2.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB01937B4E5; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from clive@localhost) by educampus.ncl.edu.tw (8.11.0/8.11.0) id e9KHT6042532; Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:29:06 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from clive) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 01:29:05 +0800 From: Clive Lin To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Paper URL Message-ID: <20001021012905.A42326@educampus.ncl.edu.tw> Reply-To: Clive Lin References: <20001019142639.B33954@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20001019142639.B33954@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:26:39PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 02:26:39PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: > http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~mwu/{presentation.ps,i18n.*} > This is our paper presented at BSDCon. Thanks ... Please don't send the wrong version next time. :-) Oh, could you put pictures about Taiwan Beer on web as well ? (I think they're legally imported.. SFO, HKG, and TW airport allowed me taking 12 bottles of beer) -- CirX - This site doesnt' exist. 9c k9o h9 s1bg s1f, 7v .y xqx a sj m8r ffg1 vg5 a6 asox tmul h38 . ant sj m8r ob ? 1fj mwby a1 tao vg5. soq df v ' .a. CirX. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Oct 20 11:50:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F0F37B4C5; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 11:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id A2D8C5730B; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:50:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 13:50:33 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Johan Granlund Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals Message-ID: <20001020135033.A39526@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20001019033252.A31416@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from johan@granlund.nu on Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 08:38:47PM +0200 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 08:38:47PM +0200, Johan Granlund scribbled: | On Thu, 19 Oct 2000, Michael C . Wu wrote: | > At the BSDCon I18N BOF, we discussed several things that could/should | > happen with the future of I18N(internationalization) in FreeBSD. | > We would like some inputs and comments regarding the following: | > 2. Needing a graphics console to display various character sets. | > There should be a kernel or loader option to start | > a graphics console by default. | The magic word is option :) | We have to be careful to not loose the ability to boot a bare-bone system | if / when having problems. Right, it will/should be an option. | I _still_ like VAX/VMS ability to be "talked" up thru the boot process. Er, *meep* too young to know what you are talking about -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Oct 20 12: 7: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E6737B479; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E3B7A5730B; Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 14:07:26 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I18N Progress, Plans, and Proposals Message-ID: <20001020140726.B39526@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <72695.971986572@winston.osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <72695.971986572@winston.osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@winston.osd.bsdi.com on Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:16:12PM -0700 X-FreeBSD-Header: This is a subliminal message from the vast FreeBSD conspiracy project. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD peorth.iteration.net 4.1.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 4.1.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:16:12PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard scribbled: | > The advantages are : | > A. Easy bug reporting by users. (e.g. "I have error 2398423") | > B. I18N error messages | | Let me just say, as someone who's done "escalation tech support" for | major ISVs (the people who get called whenever front-line tech support | is confronted with a "I have error 2398423" question), that this can | also be a tremendous pain in the butt when done wrong. The format I have in mind is more like: kern.pci.cardbus.insert.ed0 kern.net.tcpip.route.not-responding.gateway.123.233.233.100 kern.pci.pcm.yamaha.ptr.mem.0xfedf8000.irq9.device.9.on-pci0 | Done wrong, a message catalog-using program will emit cryptic numeric | errors whenever a message catalog file cannot be found or is | corrupted. Done right, the program is written in such a way as to | contain a default message which can also be overridden from the | message catalog file if some different text is found in the | appropriate language. I believe this is the way that catgets(3) | currently works, but you'd be amazed how many programmers just skip | providing a default message since the appropriate message catalog is | always found on *their* system. | | There's also nothing more unreadable than code which tests a failure | condition and then calls a message catalog routine with some numeric | constant, the actual text of the error message being an aid to the | programmer as well as the user when reading someone else's code and | trying to figure out what varioups parts of it are trying to do. So can we output the message catalogue name along with the plaintext message? -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message