From owner-freebsd-small Sun Jul 23 5:11: 8 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from dante.high5.net (dante.high5.net [194.109.18.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF27537B56F for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 05:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mischa@dante.high5.net) Received: (from mischa@localhost) by dante.high5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA47987; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:10:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mischa) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:10:58 +0200 From: Mischa Peters To: Soren Kristensen Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Smallest footprint box?? where to get one? Message-ID: <20000723141058.H88713@high5.net> References: <397A58C2.D77106E8@unlimited.net> <397A6DC6.AD7DAEFF@soekris.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397A6DC6.AD7DAEFF@soekris.com>; from soren@soekris.com on Sat, Jul 22, 2000 at 09:00:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would be very interested. I have a lot of friends that are running on a cable modem or xDSL and instead of putting in a full blown pc we would rather have something cheap and easy. Let me know how you want to go about doing this? Mischa -- Sr. Systems Engineer EMEA & CALA CacheFlow, Inc. (CFLO) The Netherlands > I'm a freelance hardware designer, and have done a lots of embedded PC design, > and actually did a tiny prototype MPC850 communication controller based firewall > for linux. (Linux runs on the MPC850, a 50-80 Mhz PowrPC....) > > See http://www.soekris.com/fw1000.jpg > and http://www.inside.dk/news/Photos/586GXm-plus.JPG > > That little pcb of my own (3.0" x 4.1") has 2 10mbit ethernet ports, serial > port, 16-64 Mbyte DRAM, 1-4 Mbyte flash plus a compactflash socket. Projected > volume cost incl box: <80$. > > After those cheap nat boxes came out I kind of put the project aside, but keep > thinking about making one optimized for FreeBSD instead. > > If there is several people interested in that, I would be willing to make a > design and manufacture them in medium volumes, a little like OEM hardware. > I was thinking about using maybe a AMD SC520 (133 mhz 486), 2 or 3 ethernet > ports, 8-32 Mbyte dram, boot/bios flash and compact flash socket. If people > wants VPN, I could make room for a hardware crypto chip. > > If we need more power, a NatSemi Geode GX1 (200-300 mhz 486+) could also be a > possibiliy. That's the processor used on the other board, a customer design. Or > even a K6-2+, but I would prefer to keep power and cost down. > > > Let me know if there is any interest. > > > Regards, > > > Soren Kristensen > > Morgan Hill, CA. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Jul 23 13:28:50 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from astart2.astart.com (astart2.astart.com [206.71.174.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137FA37B7AD for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from papowell@astart.com) Received: from h4.private (papowell@h4.private [10.0.0.4]) by astart2.astart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA79025 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from papowell@localhost) by h4.private (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA16375 for freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 13:28:52 -0700 (PDT) From: papowell@astart.com Message-Id: <200007232028.NAA16375@h4.private> To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Make Based PicoBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have spent a couple of days fixing up/hacking/slashing the current PicoBSD 'custom' distribution. I started with the basic Makefile stuff in it and extended it ummmm... vigorously. Yes. That is the word. Vigorously. It now generates 1 or 2 floppy versions, as well as a system suitable for CDROM boots. You can get the current version that I have done from: ftp://ftp.astart.com/pub/LPRng/PICOBSD/... check the version that is there - there are quite a few things in this directory. I have created bridge.new custom.new dial.new doc.new isp.new net.new router.new which are the Makefile based version of the packages currently there. I will write a new HOWTO which documents how to use this together with quite a few examples of various configurations. Note: the doc.new contains a couple of documents in the DOCBOOK format - I will be doing the documentation in it so that it can be put together with the other FreeBSD docs. If you are intersted, see the DocProject Primer, and then look the Makefile in the doc.new/src/Makefile, to see how to produce the HTML from SGML. Here is the top level README.new: Patrick Powell Sun Jul 23 12:57:42 PDT 2000 This is a quick description of a Work In Progress Goal: Fix up PicoBSD and turn it into Makefile driven Organization: Project custom.new Project Directory Makefile - Makefile for project project.options options for project crunch1/ crunch build directory Makefile - Makefile for building crunch crunch.conf crunch information crunch.options options passed to compiles and makes invoked by crunch Programs used by this project in the crunch mfs.mtree - Memory File System (MFS) template mfs.tree/ MFS files etc/ root/ ... mfs.tree.exclude Specifies files NOT to copy to MFS floppy.tree/ Floppy files boot/ essential boot files kernel.conf boot.help loader.rc.* - loader.rc files for various configurations Makefile.conf - Makefile to build kernel PICOBSD-name kernel config file - note the suffix! Makefile.mfs - Makefile to make MFS Overall method: The project.options has a couple of options that seem to change or are different for the various projects: # Information about mfs parameters # Size of mfs in kilobytes MFS_SIZE = 3500 <- pretty safe #FLOPPY_SIZE = 1722 # Suffix to tack on somewhere suffix = custom <- name of config file PICOBSD-${suffix} # default is for a single floppy system FLOPPY_N = floppy1of1 <- single floppy # for a two floppy system FLOPPY_N = floppy1of2 floppy2of2 <- two floppies # and we can do a CDROM boot image as well #FLOPPY_N += cdrom The Makefile will: a. build a kernel b. Build a loader WITHOUT the forth stuff so it is small c. build the crunched files in crunch1 d. Make an MFS image e. for a single floppy system, create floppy1of1 image, that has all the stuff on it. The floppy /etc and /root directories on the floppy are copied to the MFS at run time f. for a two floppy system, creates floppy1of2 - kernel, loader, and boot/ files floppy2of2 - MFS /etc, /root To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 3:37:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from info.iet.unipi.it (info.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E85437B547 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 03:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@info.iet.unipi.it) Received: (from luigi@localhost) by info.iet.unipi.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA73971; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:38:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from luigi) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200007241038.MAA73971@info.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: Make Based PicoBSD In-Reply-To: <200007232028.NAA16375@h4.private> from "papowell@astart.com" at "Jul 23, 2000 01:28:52 pm" To: papowell@astart.com Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:38:37 +0200 (CEST) Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just one comment: > The project.options has a couple of options that seem to change > or are different for the various projects: > > # Information about mfs parameters > # Size of mfs in kilobytes > MFS_SIZE = 3500 <- pretty safe this means this much RAM will be wasted in the memory filesystem, so it is better not to have MFS_SIZE too large. cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 11:54:46 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from workhorse.iMach.com (workhorse.iMach.com [206.127.77.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19F437BB3F for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrestc@imach.com) Received: from localhost (forrestc@localhost) by workhorse.iMach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09695; Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:42:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:42:12 -0600 (MDT) From: "Forrest W. Christian" To: Soren Kristensen Cc: norami@unlimited.net, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Smallest footprint box?? where to get one? In-Reply-To: <397A6DC6.AD7DAEFF@soekris.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would be Very interested in the following. Could probably deal with 100+ units over a year, assuming the price was right and some specific requirements below would be met: On Sat, 22 Jul 2000, Soren Kristensen wrote: > If there is several people interested in that, I would be willing to make a > design and manufacture them in medium volumes, a little like OEM hardware. > I was thinking about using maybe a AMD SC520 (133 mhz 486), 2 or 3 ethernet > ports, 8-32 Mbyte dram, boot/bios flash and compact flash socket. If people > wants VPN, I could make room for a hardware crypto chip. I would be happy with the following set of requirements: ANY 486 or better class processor (clock speed not important) 486 should be more than enough for most things. 10/100 Ethernet Ports (2 at minimum, 3 would be nice) Clients for some reason like to see the 100MB light lit on their hubs - even if they are dialing up. Some sort of "flash" boot - CF tends to be easy to do. (around 2MB would be bare minimum - 4 would be better) 1 or 2 9 pin serial ports (one at least for serial console) Useful for (of course) the console and also for modem stuff No keyboard/Monitor/Mouse ports, unless they were "free" (meaning included in the chosen chipset) 2 PCMCIA SLOTS - The reason for this is simple - Each of us have applications which require something other than the above. For instance, I will be using these for wireless access devices and I will need a wavelan card slot - this works good for this. You can also use it for a modem, or for..... etc. etc. etc. The bios could be the bare essentials for initializing the chipset and booting via serial console/flash disk. Depending on the chipset this could be rather simple. I have left an important part of this off - that is how to get the software in the system initially. I would suggest one or more of the following routes: 1) Floppy drive support (moving parts are bad - and the floppy interface adds unnessary components) 2) Support for serial loading of flashdisk through code in the BIOS Good for initial work - bad for upgrades (drag laptop out to site?) 3) Support for loading of flashdisk through network. I kinda envision a two prong approach - one which is rather "raw" which can be implemented in bios - not necessarily even using a protocol like TCP/IP but instead just raw ethernet frames. THe other would be for upgrades and it would basically be implented in the OS Running on these. 4) Support for Cloning of PCMCIA memory card to flash memory. I like this idea for initial code load. 5) And others which I can't think of now... I would like to make an argument for this to be powered by a 12V external supply with internal filtering, DC-DC converters, etc, etc, as needed. When I say 12V I really mean something like 9-18V or 9-24V (Even better) DC or AC. So it can be not only wall powered with a wall wart but also solar powered or powered in another environment. I also think the PCMCIA slots should be not on top of each other - but instead two single slots side by side. I envision a box about 1 inch thick, the width of 2 pcmcia slots and whatever depth is necessary for the components. Something like: (ASCII ART FOLLOWS - USE NON PROPORTIONAL FONTS) +----------------------------------+ | O O | <- Optional Mounting Ears +-+----------------------------------+-+ | | +-| |= <- Power | | | | | |+ | | PCMCIA A || Serial A | | |+ | | | +-| |+ | || Serial B +-| |+ | | | | | |] Ethernet A | | PCMCIA B |] | | | | | |] Ethernet B +-| |] | | +-+----------------------------------+-+ | O O | +----------------------------------+ Side View Eth Eth Ser Ser 12V +----------------------------------------------+ | [=] [=] \===/ \===/ O | ---+----------------------------------------------+--- (Thinking about this, maybe a parallel port - if cheap - might not be a bad idea - as you could use this as a print server also) I would REALLY like to collaborate on this project as I've been thinking about this for a long long time. I could probably handle a good chunk of the BIOS work, It sounds like we've got a hardware geek among us, any people good with metalwork? - Forrest W. Christian (forrestc@imach.com) AC7DE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- iMach, Ltd., P.O. Box 5749, Helena, MT 59604 http://www.imach.com Solutions for your high-tech problems. (406)-442-6648 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 12:45:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42C7C37BC44 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:45:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21785; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:45:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id NAA82123; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:45:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007241945.NAA82123@harmony.village.org> To: "Forrest W. Christian" Subject: Re: Smallest footprint box?? where to get one? Cc: Soren Kristensen , norami@unlimited.net, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:42:12 MDT." References: Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:45:01 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I know that I'd buy at least one of these boxes for FreeBSD pccard testing. I need a good, small box for that :-) "one of these bxoes" meaning one with the two pccard slots on it. Right now I'm using a passive backplane with a SBC for most of this. And a pccard reader in a second slot. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 13:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from raven.webgroup.ch (webgroup.ch [194.191.122.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5E937B91B for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ast@marabu.ch) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by raven.webgroup.ch (8.9.3/8.9.2/ast-20000114) with UUCP id WAA91971; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:21:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: by marabu.marabu.ch (8.7.5/20000528-ast-8.1) id WAA10166; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:17:20 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <200007242017.WAA10166@marabu.marabu.ch> MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v124.8483.6) Content-Type: text/plain In-Reply-To: <200007212211.PAA28791@mina.soco.agilent.com> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b6) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.124.8483.6) From: Adrian Steinmann Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:17:18 +0200 To: Darryl Okahata Subject: Re: are there any *inexpensive* SBC with just the right features? Cc: Gunther Schadow , norami@unlimited.net, Soren Kristensen , freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: <200007212211.PAA28791@mina.soco.agilent.com> X-Organization: Steinmann Consulting, Apollostrasse 21, 8032 Zurich X-Phone-Numbers: Switzerland, Tel +41 1 380 30 83 Fax +41 1 380 30 85 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm using an Advantech PCM-4823 with 32MB DOC + 32MB RAM and a PCM-5820 with 32MB CF + 64MB RAM; both use MFS filesystems for the writable fs. These boxes have been mentioned often when "small" boxes are called for. See also http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=35636+37635+/usr/local/www/db/text/2000/freebsd-small/20000521.freebsd-small http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=1432327+1434517+/usr/local/www/db/text/2000/freebsd-questions/20000528.freebsd-questions I for one would be very interested in Sorens' "OEM" hardware because Advantech is pretty expensive, mainly because it has too much stuff we don't need for a FreeBSD "NAT box" + IPSEC VPN. There is also a need for secure serial terminal servers: fanless and diskless - PC/104 unfortunately makes the price/port quite uncompetitive to the cheap but insecure telnet terminal servers on the market. _________________________________________________________________________ Dr. Adrian Steinmann Steinmann Consulting Apollostrasse 21 8032 Zurich Tel +41 1 380 30 83 Fax +41 1 380 30 85 Mailto:ast@marabu.ch This firewall has been up 69 days: FreeBSD 3.4-RELEASE #4: Sun Apr 2 16:58:34 CEST 2000 ast@raven.webgroup.ch:/usr/src/sys/compile/FANO Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz CPU: AMD Am5x86 Write-Back (486-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x4f4 Stepping = 4 Features=0x1 real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 30760960 (30040K bytes) Preloaded elf kernel "kernel" at 0xc020a000. Probing for devices on the ISA bus: ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 5 on isa ed0: address 00:d0:c9:00:63:11, type NE2000 (16 bit) ed1 at 0x320-0x33f irq 10 on isa ed1: address 00:c0:6c:a1:02:91, type NE2000 (16 bit) sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa sio0: type 16550A, console sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A ppc0 at 0x378 irq 7 flags 0x40 on isa ppc0: SMC-like chipset (ECP/EPP/PS2/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode ppc0: FIFO with 16/16/16 bytes threshold fla0 maddr 0xd0000 msize 8192 on isa fla0: fla0: 31.3MB (64064 sectors), 1001 cyls, 16 heads, 4 S/T, 512 B/S npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 21:10:34 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E615137B7D1 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08087 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:12:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:12:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: TinyBSD kit progress report Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone remember my packaging-up-of-own-personal-scripts called TinyBSD? Well, despite my silence about it, I am still doing work on it. It's currently a bit more refined that the 0.1 version I spewed forth a few months back. I still have some more stuff to do (documentation, error-checking, space optimization hacks) before feeling comfortable with another release. I plan for 0.2 to be quite usable, though I can't say for sure how far off that is. I've been wondering a bit, after someone brought it up a while back: what are the chances of the TinyBSD kit making it into the FreeBSD source tree once it's good enough? =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 22:21:21 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEC937B693 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtgov.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.195.31]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA02806; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA05741; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200007250523.WAA05741@mindspring.com> To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, jhix@jhix.mindspring.com Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:12:27 CDT." Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:23:37 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've been wondering a bit, after someone brought it up a while back: what > are the chances of the TinyBSD kit making it into the FreeBSD source tree > once it's good enough? It seems to me that it would be a lot more interesting to have the ports/build frameworks set up to accomodate building "these things" out of the src/ tree. In other words, I believe that picobsd needs to come out of src/release and am not in favor of repeating its history. This is not a strike against these variants however; I sincerely believe that they would be more actively maintained as "ports" and also permit wider participation than the current situation does. I prototyped an "outside the tree" variant once and even got it to boot but ran into other problems related to the severe breakage that has been present with PicoBSD for a long time now. ports/itsybsd anyone? :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks gehicks@cisco.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Jul 24 23:16: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA40037B75B for ; Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08213; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:17:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:17:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, jhix@jhix.mindspring.com Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: <200007250523.WAA05741@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jul 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > I've been wondering a bit, after someone brought it up a while back: what > > are the chances of the TinyBSD kit making it into the FreeBSD source tree > > once it's good enough? > > It seems to me that it would be a lot more interesting to have the > ports/build frameworks set up to accomodate building "these things" > out of the src/ tree. > ... > ports/itsybsd anyone? :-) Interesting idea, but there are some things about small freebsd kits that are tightly coupled to the underlying system. Imagine the differences introduced when installing the port onto systems from different branches... Sure, we could make it happen with some Makefile/patch magic, but having the kit in src/release seems like the simpler solution IMHO. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 1: 3: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A9E337BB29 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtga8.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.193.72]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA15241; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA06013; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:17:58 CDT." Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:04:00 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It seems to me that it would be a lot more interesting to have the > > ports/build frameworks set up to accomodate building "these things" > > out of the src/ tree. > > ... > > ports/itsybsd anyone? :-) > Interesting idea, but there are some things about small freebsd kits > that are tightly coupled to the underlying system. Exactly and it's just this coupling I would like to see our collective energies invested into removing instead of heading down the path of a redux of our picobsd experience. Some time ago I submitted an experimental patch which allowed ports to fetch their sources via CVS. This allows the construction of aribitrary source trees from divergent branches and possibly even from other projects. I used this ugly little hack for my own small-freebsd variant (FleaBSD) > Imagine the differences introduced when installing the port onto > systems from different branches... Sure, we could make it happen > with some Makefile/patch magic, but having the kit in src/release > seems like the simpler solution IMHO. I've been through the issues in depth, they aren't insurmountable. The most difficult part of something like this will be gaining a consensus as to how we should approach it. Another issue is to convince the mainline developers to consider the small-bsd variants when adding new features to the mainline development. Since Andrzej has moved on to other things it seems to me that the few interested committers have mostly introduced their own biases and desires onto the subtree with little regard for how people were actually using PicoBSD. (To be fair, some of the work was done thoughtfully and with a broad vision). Right now I think it's fair to say that PicoBSD is a festering mess and that the current development model isn't working very well. Reproducing that model doesn't seem to be the right approach to me. All that and I *like* {Tiny,Pico}BSD :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 1:15:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4C637BB7E for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24766; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:15:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id CAA17951; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:14:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007250814.CAA17951@harmony.village.org> To: W Gerald Hicks Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report Cc: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:04:00 PDT." <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> References: <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:14:43 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For what it is worth, I've had excellent luck with a config file plus a shell script on a freshly built world in creating bootable CF images in the 13M-16M range. It works really well. It isn't 1 floppy, doesn't do compression, etc. A compressed image will likely fit on a 4MB flash part. I did things this way so that the parts would be easily updatable in the field. One drawback of this approach is that I build directly onto the media I'm creating. If there's interest, I can see if I can release this stuff. It has been very useful at Timing Solutions. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 1:28:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14EA837BAE7 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 7004 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 08:28:07 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 08:28:07 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([63.209.95.21]) by achtung.com ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:28:04 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:25:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: The heart of the problem Message-ID: <397CEC9F.27760.111BFA1@localhost> In-reply-to: <200007250814.CAA17951@harmony.village.org> References: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:04:00 PDT." <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm going to try not to be so harsh, but forgive me if I don't succeed. The problem is we are BSD and we are trying the Linux model, and it's not working. In fact, Open Souce as a whole from what I can see works like this: There is 1 or 2 main people for a given project, everybody is on the sidelines for the most part, throwing a tid bit here and there, but not doing much for the most part. If the main 1 or 2 people leave, then the project falls apart. That's what happened with PicoBSD. There is no "1" person in charge, so everything is patch works at best. We need someone to take charge, I personally don't have the skills needed or else I would. The current method of development is not working. We have to aim at some sort of structure. We do that by doing the following: 1) We list what we currently have 2) We list the discrepencies between the current version Pico is based on vs. the current Release of FreeBSD. (features, etc..) 3) We list what we feel is the most important 4) We list our "wish list" 5) We decide what features will go into what flavor 6) We delegate or people volunteer for certain parts 7) We have good build tracking 8) We follow everybody else, we have a devl, stable, and a nightly. So, anybody want to be captain? I want to see Pico work! Albert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 1:28:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5400837BAE7 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:28:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 7107 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 08:28:28 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 08:28:28 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([63.209.95.21]) by achtung.com ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 03:28:26 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:26:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Ipfilter Message-ID: <397CECB7.19056.1122008@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Question, Is it possible to fit IPFilter onto a PicoBSD floppy? Albert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 2:30:48 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7191037B540 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:30:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@mindspring.com) Received: from jhix.mindspring.com (user-33qtga8.dialup.mindspring.com [199.174.193.72]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04093; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jhix (jhix@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhix.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA06461; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:33:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhix@jhix.mindspring.com) Message-Id: <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> To: "Albert Yang" Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:25:51 PDT." <397CEC9F.27760.111BFA1@localhost> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 02:33:07 -0700 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So, anybody want to be captain? I want to see Pico work! Well personally I'd nominate Jeffery if he's willing. Omanchu Oomgali (sp?) is also a favorite candidate of mine; I incited him to do some work on PicoBSD some time back and he made very good progress. (I'm booked until the end of next month but am willing to pitch in for coding duty if some direction has jelled by that time). However I don't think that freebsd-small can really survive without deeper consideration by the mainline developers. This is a serious point and one that has given PicoBSD quite a few fits and starts during its existence. Your suggestions about regular builds are also very insightful. IMHO, if PicoBSD is to remain in the tree it should be built regularly along with the snapshots and/or releases within the standard release engineering processes. There simply isn't any "bite" when things are committed that break PicoBSD in various ways, userland and kernel. I think we'll see jet-powered flying chihuahuas before that happens though :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhix@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 4:47:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C373437BD40; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA34352; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: freefall.freebsd.org: kris owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:47:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Albert Yang Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ipfilter In-Reply-To: <397CECB7.19056.1122008@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Albert Yang wrote: > Is it possible to fit IPFilter onto a PicoBSD floppy? Surely. The question is what else you want on there ;-) Kris -- In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 5:14: 2 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0056E37BF82 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 05:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08730; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:15:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:15:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > It seems to me that it would be a lot more interesting to have the > > > ports/build frameworks set up to accomodate building "these things" > > > out of the src/ tree. > > > ... > > > ports/itsybsd anyone? :-) > > > Interesting idea, but there are some things about small freebsd kits > > that are tightly coupled to the underlying system. > > Exactly and it's just this coupling I would like to see our collective > energies invested into removing instead of heading down the path of > a redux of our picobsd experience. > > Some time ago I submitted an experimental patch which allowed ports to > fetch their sources via CVS. This allows the construction of aribitrary > source trees from divergent branches and possibly even from other projects. > I used this ugly little hack for my own small-freebsd variant (FleaBSD) Now that sounds like a good idea. I still think that being in src is a good idea, too, if handled properly administratively. But now I can't decide which one I like better... :) =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 6:35:45 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail.dcnv.com (mail.dcnv.com [216.33.117.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC8C37B524 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:35:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aedmonds@digitalconvergence.com) Received: from digitalconvergence.com (sledge [207.158.100.67]) by mail.dcnv.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA35085; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:33:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from aedmonds@digitalconvergence.com) Message-ID: <397D97A2.EDEF2CC6@digitalconvergence.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:35:30 -0500 From: Alan Edmonds X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: W Gerald Hicks , "Jeffrey S. Sharp" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report References: <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> <200007250814.CAA17951@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've also been doing a variant of picobsd. I'm building a PXE boot setup. I build a kernel (and/or a module or two) and a memory file system. I don't need to build a boot floppy image; pxe takes care of that. I do need to build a memory root file system that is loaded by loader/pxe. I'm unsure how to support this kind of build target within the current build/stage1 scripts. -- Alan Edmonds Director of International Technology DigitalConvergence.:Com aedmonds@digitalconvergence.com Phone: +1-214-292-6040 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 6:44:44 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8875D37B524 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08825; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:46:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:46:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > So, anybody want to be captain? I want to see Pico work! > > Well personally I'd nominate Jeffery if he's willing. Omanchu Oomgali (sp?) > is also a favorite candidate of mine; I incited him to do some work on > PicoBSD some time back and he made very good progress. I would be delighted to be take the captain's chair if I could claim such an honor through some sort of general agreement by enough people. Let it be known that I have a few personal beliefs concerning small FreeBSD: * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced with something entirely new. * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) * I think that a small BSD kit should be general-purpose enough to do multidisk distros, CD-ROM distros, etc. -- pretty much anything you might want in a small FreeBSD. * I think that the small FreeBSD community, Pico, Tiny, or whatever exactly I would be the captain of needs more recognition by the outside world than Pico is currently getting. This means we need a better website, possibly accessible at its own domain name, and someone who will be the official maintainer of that. That's my personal agenda. Now, here is a resume of sorts. I live in Norman, Oklahoma, where I attend the University of Oklahoma. I will be a Senior this fall, working towards a BS in CS with a minor in mathematics. I originally came from a small, rural Oklahoma farm town, but I escaped from that dreadful place with the aid of a National Merit Scholarship. I am 21 years old. I've been learning/loving programming for about half of that time, but most of my knowledge gathering in that field has occurred within the last 4 years. I discovered the Unix world in late 1997. I'm probably a little greener than some of the people here, but I learn quickly. How does everyone feel about all that? > However I don't think that freebsd-small can really survive without > deeper consideration by the mainline developers. This is a serious > point and one that has given PicoBSD quite a few fits and starts > during its existence. That would be one of the captain's duties: making the mainline people know we exist and keeping communication going. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 6:54:17 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B6B37B574 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08843; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:56:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:56:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Alan Edmonds Cc: Warner Losh , W Gerald Hicks , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: <397D97A2.EDEF2CC6@digitalconvergence.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Alan Edmonds wrote: > > I've also been doing a variant of picobsd. I'm building > a PXE boot setup. > ... > I'm unsure how to support this kind of build target within > the current build/stage1 scripts. My variant, TinyBSD, could handle that with built-in extensibility. One would just need to add a case to the config script for target_type=pxe. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 7:20:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from dante.high5.net (dante.high5.net [194.109.18.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913EF37B5A3 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mischa@dante.high5.net) Received: (from mischa@localhost) by dante.high5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA53902; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:19:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mischa) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:19:45 +0200 From: Mischa Peters To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem Message-ID: <20000725161944.B56036@high5.net> References: <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jss@subatomix.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:46:44AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi All, > * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced > with something entirely new. Personaly I think all the small bsd variants should be consolidated into one small bsd version. I have seen a lot of people now on this list that either have build their own, or modified pico/tiny bsd. And I think this energy can kick a lot more a** if we put everything together in a way that most of the us can get out of it what they want. A good router,cable,dialup,terminal,bridge version. Something you can not get in the linux world either. Which is one of the things about linux, that everybody starts their own distribution just because they think they can do a better job. > * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good > candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) :)) > * I think that a small BSD kit should be general-purpose enough to do > multidisk distros, CD-ROM distros, etc. -- pretty much anything you might > want in a small FreeBSD. My point exactly... > * I think that the small FreeBSD community, Pico, Tiny, or whatever > exactly I would be the captain of needs more recognition by the outside > world than Pico is currently getting. This means we need a better > website, possibly accessible at its own domain name, and someone who will > be the official maintainer of that. I wouldn't mind hosting that domain, my own servers are co-located at an ISP in the Netherlands which is connected with a 34MB conenction to the dutch internet exchange. But I think the maintance should be a more then 1 persons job, altough if the documentation that comes with every release is updates, then it shouldn'ty be a problem ;) > How does everyone feel about all that? All for it... Maybe there could be a democratic vote somewhere, where people can add them to a list of possible candidates to become the leader of this bunch ;) And the rest of the list can go there and vote... or is this to democratic? ;)) Mischa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 7:27:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C09337B620 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13H5fU-0004jJ-00; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:26:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:26:48 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem Message-ID: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from jss@subatomix.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 08:46:44AM -0500 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-07-25 (08:46), Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced > with something entirely new. > > * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good > candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) What do you think of the make(1)-based system in picobsd/custom at the moment, and the Patrick's extensions to it (advertised a few days ago, which I haven't had the necessary time to look at yet). I can't imagine there's a better approach than a make(1)-based system, like the rest of the build. The power of our make(1) build systems (ports, release, world, and now doc) is one of FreeBSD's great strengths. Actually, while we're at it, can we get a list of the small FreeBSD kits and their URLs? Perhaps we should move the PicoBSD web pages into the FreeBSD web page space, so we can get CVS and stuff going. Any ideas, Andrzej? Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 7:30:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A163D37B630 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13H5ii-0004jt-00; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:30:08 +0200 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:30:08 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Albert Yang Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem Message-ID: <20000725163008.B18036@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <200007250804.BAA06013@mindspring.com> <200007250814.CAA17951@harmony.village.org> <397CEC9F.27760.111BFA1@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <397CEC9F.27760.111BFA1@localhost>; from albert@achtung.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 01:25:51AM -0700 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-07-25 (01:25), Albert Yang wrote: > We have to aim at some sort of structure. We do that by doing the > following: > > 1) We list what we currently have > 2) We list the discrepencies between the current version Pico is > based on vs. the current Release of FreeBSD. (features, etc..) > 3) We list what we feel is the most important > 4) We list our "wish list" > 5) We decide what features will go into what flavor > 6) We delegate or people volunteer for certain parts > 7) We have good build tracking > 8) We follow everybody else, we have a devl, stable, and a nightly. I think this is a great idea. 2) discrepencies - we don't use make(1) builds by default yet, we should. 4) wish list - become the means to build the official release boot disks. 6) volunteer - I can volunteer my time to committing and documenting, and to making the build 'obj' and make(1) friendly. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 7:44:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from server.tiernetworking.com (server.tiernetworking.com [209.136.195.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C652837B621 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Received: from tiernetworking.com (office-5.cswnet.com [209.136.201.34]) by server.tiernetworking.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09963 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:42:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Message-ID: <397DA84E.63D5378D@tiernetworking.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:46:38 -0500 From: Lance Woodson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > This means we need a better website, possibly accessible at its own > domain name, and someone who will be the official maintainer of that. We've recently started registering domains; I'd be happy to volunteer any domains needed. Just pick the names and let me know what nameservers to point them to. Thanks, Lance Woodson Tier Networking, Inc. http://www.tiernetworking.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 7:46:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from dante.high5.net (dante.high5.net [194.109.18.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2DD37BDC8 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 07:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mischa@dante.high5.net) Received: (from mischa@localhost) by dante.high5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA59034; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:46:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mischa) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:46:28 +0200 From: Mischa Peters To: Lance Woodson Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem Message-ID: <20000725164628.C56036@high5.net> References: <397DA84E.63D5378D@tiernetworking.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <397DA84E.63D5378D@tiernetworking.com>; from lance@tiernetworking.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 09:46:38AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We've recently started registering domains; I'd be happy to volunteer > any domains needed. Just pick the names and let me know what > nameservers to point them to. You can point them to my nameservers: 194.109.18.219 ns.high5.net 194.109.18.222 ns2.high5.net Mischa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 8:15:28 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9990E37B57E for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08987; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:17:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:17:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Mischa Peters Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <20000725161944.B56036@high5.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Mischa Peters wrote: > > > * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced > > with something entirely new. > > Personaly I think all the small bsd variants should be consolidated into one > small bsd version. I have seen a lot of people now on this list that either > have build their own, or modified pico/tiny bsd. > > And I think this energy can kick a lot more a** if we put everything > together in a way that most of the us can get out of it what they want. > A good router,cable,dialup,terminal,bridge version. > > > * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good > > candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) > > :)) One reason I'll argue my kit is a darn good candidate is that AFAIK, it is built to be extensible. It is rather easy to support multiple, different ways of building a small FreeBSD distro. The user selects a method by using the appropriate target_type directive in a device config file. For instance: target_type=disk # Build images for standard disks target_type=cd-rom # Build iso images target_type=pxe # You get the idea Other options in the dev conf file are dependent on the target_type. For instance, target_type=disk enables directives to specify how a disk should be sliced and labeled, whereas target_type=cd-rom might support directives to change how the build system interacts with the mkisofs program. The programmer wishing to add a target_type need only add another case for target_type in the config script. > > * I think that the small FreeBSD community, Pico, Tiny, or whatever > > exactly I would be the captain of needs more recognition by the outside > > world than Pico is currently getting. This means we need a better > > website, possibly accessible at its own domain name, and someone who will > > be the official maintainer of that. > > I wouldn't mind hosting that domain, my own servers are co-located at an ISP > in the Netherlands which is connected with a 34MB conenction to the dutch > internet exchange. A couple of people have offered. Once we straighten out our current situation, it'll be time to find some server space. > All for it... > > Maybe there could be a democratic vote somewhere, where people can add them > to a list of possible candidates to become the leader of this bunch ;) > And the rest of the list can go there and vote... or is this to democratic? > ;)) That sounds like a good idea. Would anyone be willing to provide that? If not, we can just use this list to declare candidacy and/or vote. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 8:35:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824B437B5CD for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09008; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:37:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:37:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Tue 2000-07-25 (08:46), Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced > > with something entirely new. > > > > * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good > > candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) > > What do you think of the make(1)-based system in picobsd/custom at the > moment, and the Patrick's extensions to it (advertised a few days ago, > which I haven't had the necessary time to look at yet). I think it's a step in the right direction, but not general enough. It's still too highly tied to floppy format and having an mfs root filesystem. The ideal successor/upgrade to PicoBSD would make these kinds of fundamental changes simple. > I can't imagine there's a better approach than a make(1)-based system, > like the rest of the build. The power of our make(1) build systems > (ports, release, world, and now doc) is one of FreeBSD's great > strengths. Right. My TinyBSD variant is also make-based -- just with a config script to read .conf files and generate the makefiles for you. > Actually, while we're at it, can we get a list of the small FreeBSD kits > and their URLs? You can find my version 0.1 at the following address. Watch out, because it's old, rough, and not entirely representative of my kit's current status (which is much better :). http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/S/Jeffrey.S.Sharp-1/ =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 10:45:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D9837B73A for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09116 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:47:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:47:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: On the future of freebsd-small Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, it appears that many people would like some radical change to our group in order fire up some genuine progress and keep small FreeBSD from dying. There seems to be a lot of support for establishing some formal organization. I suggest we elect, as Albert said, a 'Captain'. This would be represent quite a jump from where we are now, but we can do it if we try. There are three issues to address: (1) Are we sure everyone wants this? (2) How should the vote be done? and (3) What will the Captain's responsibilities/duties/powers be? (1) COMPLETENESS OF REPRESENTATION Before we do this, we need to ensure that we're doing what a good majority of the active participants on this list want. If anyone does not want to elect a Captain, then please speak up. I suggest we wait 2 days for this. (2) VOTING After we've passed the first question, it's time to start a voting procedure. I suggest this one: 07/27 17:00 GMT - Begin accepting nominations 07/29 17:00 GMT - End accepting nominations; begin voting 07/31 17:00 GMT - End voting; tally I also suggest that we use this list as a voting medium; it's quick, easy to use, and anyone can count the votes. (3) WHAT GOOD IS THE CAPTAIN? When we vote, we need to agree upon what we're getting by electing a Captain. I suggest these basic ideas as to what a Captain is for: * a source for approval for significant commits by others * someone to take patches to for committing * delegation of duties, like finding someone to donate server space or finding someone to maintain a web page. * communication on the group's behalf with the mainline people * administration of voting over future issues, like if or how to change or replace the existing PicoBSD. Unless there are some negative replies to this, let's do it. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 10:49:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C252E37B78B for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26756; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:48:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA21108; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:48:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007251748.LAA21108@harmony.village.org> To: Neil Blakey-Milner Subject: Re: The heart of the problem Cc: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" , W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:26:48 +0200." <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:48:11 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> Neil Blakey-Milner writes: : What do you think of the make(1)-based system in picobsd/custom at the : moment, and the Patrick's extensions to it (advertised a few days ago, : which I haven't had the necessary time to look at yet). : : I can't imagine there's a better approach than a make(1)-based system, : like the rest of the build. The power of our make(1) build systems : (ports, release, world, and now doc) is one of FreeBSD's great : strengths. : : Actually, while we're at it, can we get a list of the small FreeBSD kits : and their URLs? : : Perhaps we should move the PicoBSD web pages into the FreeBSD web page : space, so we can get CVS and stuff going. Any ideas, Andrzej? Hmmm, I'd like to see a better design and/or implementation before we get too far down the removing/moving picobsd stuff. I fear that we're entering a time of great fragmentation and want to avoid that if at all possible. Is there a design document on any of this? I'm putting together my flash building scripts and will ask for people to comment on them. It seems to me that we have two basic types of systems. First, we have crunchgen'd systems which are designed to be really small. Next we have non-crunchgen'd system that are designed to be a little larger, but maybe need more flexibility than crunchgen can give. Trying to bifricate into router/dialup/etc is going to be a big mess. We'd likely be better off defining "packages" of programs in the base system that we can then glue together at a higher level to create the system that we want. This will allow a more generic mixing and matching of system components and allow a higher level of automation than we have with the current config file system. I'll be the first to admit my scripts haven't taken this step, but they could almost trivially be adapoted to doing that. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 10:56:42 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B6337B7AA for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26784; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:56:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA21159; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:56:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007251756.LAA21159@harmony.village.org> To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:47:12 CDT." References: Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:56:05 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message "Jeffrey S. Sharp" writes: : Well, it appears that many people would like some radical change to our : group in order fire up some genuine progress and keep small FreeBSD from : dying. There seems to be a lot of support for establishing some formal : organization. I suggest we elect, as Albert said, a 'Captain'. I think that it is premature to elect anybody capitain. I've not seen any good design statements from any of the partipants yet beyond the "motherhood and apple pie" statements. : This would be represent quite a jump from where we are now, but we can do : it if we try. There are three issues to address: (1) Are we sure everyone : wants this? (2) How should the vote be done? and (3) What will the : Captain's responsibilities/duties/powers be? Let's hold off on this until we can reach a consensus on where we're going. If we don't know where we're going, we can eaily elect someone ill suited to the right direction of the project. : (1) COMPLETENESS OF REPRESENTATION : Before we do this, we need to ensure that we're doing what a good majority : of the active participants on this list want. If anyone does not want to : elect a Captain, then please speak up. I suggest we wait 2 days for this. Let me vote no for now. : (2) VOTING : : After we've passed the first question, it's time to start a voting : procedure. I suggest this one: : : 07/27 17:00 GMT - Begin accepting nominations : 07/29 17:00 GMT - End accepting nominations; begin voting : 07/31 17:00 GMT - End voting; tally : : I also suggest that we use this list as a voting medium; it's quick, easy : to use, and anyone can count the votes. NO. Let's not use the list. It will be too public. Also, the period of time is too short. It should be at least a week, if not longer. Many people go away for the weekend of a week in this country and in Europe this is vacation time, where people literally are gone for a month. : (3) WHAT GOOD IS THE CAPTAIN? : : When we vote, we need to agree upon what we're getting by electing a : Captain. I suggest these basic ideas as to what a Captain is for: : : * a source for approval for significant commits by others This is usually called MAINTAINER :-) : * someone to take patches to for committing Ditto. : * delegation of duties, like finding someone to donate server space or : finding someone to maintain a web page. What's wrong with the FreeBSD web services? One of the ***'d up things of the linux world is that each project is on its own whacked out web server. The incremental cost of putting this information on the FreeBSD pages is so small that one shouldn't waste any time at all with the issue. We should use what we have. : * communication on the group's behalf with the mainline people Coming from the PAO merge experience, I would maintain that if you aren't mainline, you are setting yourself up for a ***load of pain down the road. You gotta have people who do lots of work on the mainline as well as the tiny efforts. That way they understand the issues involved with making things small as well as understanding the tools that are available that might make the tiny effort trivial or at least close to trivial. : * administration of voting over future issues, like if or how to : change or replace the existing PicoBSD. Core has this power. We can't elect someone to do that. It isn't how things are done in this project. Sorry to come off sounding like a sourpuss, but my first reaction to this was that we'd be setting ourselves up for failure on a grand scale. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 11: 4: 3 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from server.tiernetworking.com (server.tiernetworking.com [209.136.195.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C570137B725 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Received: from tiernetworking.com (office-5.cswnet.com [209.136.201.34]) by server.tiernetworking.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10480 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:02:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Message-ID: <397DD728.4B2D8E3B@tiernetworking.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:06:32 -0500 From: Lance Woodson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > (2) How should the vote be done? Only people who have posted or committed patches as of last week get to vote. > 07/27 17:00 GMT - Begin accepting nominations > 07/29 17:00 GMT - End accepting nominations; begin voting > 07/31 17:00 GMT - End voting; tally What if someone is gone away on vacation? They'll come back and find that we discussed, nominated, and elected in 6 days. This seems too soon. > I also suggest that we use this list as a voting medium; it's quick, easy > to use, and anyone can count the votes. And anyone can skew the results unless we limit who can vote. :-) > I suggest these basic ideas as to what a Captain is for: > > * delegation of duties, like finding someone to donate server space or > finding someone to maintain a web page. I'm not sure we need server space. PicoBSD is part of FreeBSD and as such, we have space on people.freebsd.org. > * communication on the group's behalf with the mainline people I think we will be shooting ourselves in the foot if we try to seperate ourselves from the "mainline" people. It seems to me that the people who commit to PicoBSD also commit to FreeBSD. > Unless there are some negative replies to this, let's do it. Just comments :-) Thanks, Lance Woodson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 11:11:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB50A37B725 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09171; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:12:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:12:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Warner Losh Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <200007251748.LAA21108@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > > Hmmm, I'd like to see a better design and/or implementation before we > get too far down the removing/moving picobsd stuff. I fear that we're > entering a time of great fragmentation and want to avoid that if at > all possible. > > Is there a design document on any of this? Sorta... I've neglected my documentation somewhat. Maybe all of us that have our own kits should work on packaging them up (like you are doing), or at least make good docs available, so that we can come up with a design together that integrates all of our good ideas. > It seems to me that we have two basic types of systems. First, we > have crunchgen'd systems which are designed to be really small. Next > we have non-crunchgen'd system that are designed to be a little > larger, but maybe need more flexibility than crunchgen can give. Right. If these are the most-used types of builds, then we need to make it extra-easy to do them. However, we don't want to limit things to only two rigid structures; I think we should put lots of room for customization in there so others don't have to build their own kits when they have something wacko to do. > Trying to bifricate into router/dialup/etc is going to be a big mess. > We'd likely be better off defining "packages" of programs in the base > system that we can then glue together at a higher level to create the > system that we want. This will allow a more generic mixing and > matching of system components and allow a higher level of automation > than we have with the current config file system. Good idea! > I'll be the first to admit my scripts haven't taken this step Mine neither. > but they could almost trivially be adapoted to doing that Mine too. I'll get to work on my documentation, so I can help us to work more on reinventing the same wheel... :) =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 11:15:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from dreamwvr.com (24.66.207.153.ab.wave.home.com [24.66.207.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64B737B7FD for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dreamwvr@dreamwvr.com) Received: from tyr.dreamwvr.com (unknown [192.168.26.101]) by dreamwvr.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 711743486; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:15:20 -0600 (MDT) From: dreamwvr To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" , freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:42:11 -0600 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.28] Content-Type: text/plain References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <00072512430306.00377@tyr.dreamwvr.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, i am game as well as to contribute perhaps space or web stuff if the actualy rollout is most likely a month out:-)) On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Well, it appears that many people would like some radical change to our > group in order fire up some genuine progress and keep small FreeBSD from > dying. There seems to be a lot of support for establishing some formal > organization. I suggest we elect, as Albert said, a 'Captain'. > > This would be represent quite a jump from where we are now, but we can do > it if we try. There are three issues to address: (1) Are we sure everyone > wants this? (2) How should the vote be done? and (3) What will the > Captain's responsibilities/duties/powers be? > > (1) COMPLETENESS OF REPRESENTATION > > Before we do this, we need to ensure that we're doing what a good majority > of the active participants on this list want. If anyone does not want to > elect a Captain, then please speak up. I suggest we wait 2 days for this. > > (2) VOTING > > After we've passed the first question, it's time to start a voting > procedure. I suggest this one: > > 07/27 17:00 GMT - Begin accepting nominations > 07/29 17:00 GMT - End accepting nominations; begin voting > 07/31 17:00 GMT - End voting; tally > > I also suggest that we use this list as a voting medium; it's quick, easy > to use, and anyone can count the votes. > > (3) WHAT GOOD IS THE CAPTAIN? > > When we vote, we need to agree upon what we're getting by electing a > Captain. I suggest these basic ideas as to what a Captain is for: > > * a source for approval for significant commits by others > * someone to take patches to for committing > * delegation of duties, like finding someone to donate server space or > finding someone to maintain a web page. > * communication on the group's behalf with the mainline people > * administration of voting over future issues, like if or how to > change or replace the existing PicoBSD. > > Unless there are some negative replies to this, let's do it. > > =============================== > Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) > jss@subatomix.com > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version 3.12 > GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> > E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ > 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message -- Reuters, London, February 29, 1998: Scientists have announced discovering a meteorite which will strike the earth in March, 2028. Millions of UNIX coders expressed relief for being spared the UNIX epoch "crisis" of 2038. _______________________________________________________________________ ************** DREAMWVR.COM - TOTAL INTERNET SERVICES **************** TOTAL DESIGN - DEVELOPMENT - INTEGRATION - SECURITY - Click Here.. ; DREAMWVR.COM - The Console of Many... 90 Topics Covered ; ; ->> LINUX Solution Provider and North American Distributor<<- "===0 PGP Key Available *************** "As Unique as the Company You Keep."***************** "If anyone speaks from DREAMWVR.COM its certainly not me:-)" ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 11:31:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110C637B75C for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@pike.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA00353; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) From: John Baldwin Message-Id: <200007251831.LAA00353@pike.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <200007250933.CAA06461@mindspring.com> from W Gerald Hicks at "Jul 25, 2000 02:33:07 am" To: W Gerald Hicks Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Cc: small@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > So, anybody want to be captain? I want to see Pico work! > > Well personally I'd nominate Jeffery if he's willing. Omanchu Oomgali (sp?) > is also a favorite candidate of mine; I incited him to do some work on > PicoBSD some time back and he made very good progress. > > (I'm booked until the end of next month but am willing to pitch in for > coding duty if some direction has jelled by that time). > > However I don't think that freebsd-small can really survive without > deeper consideration by the mainline developers. This is a serious > point and one that has given PicoBSD quite a few fits and starts > during its existence. > > Your suggestions about regular builds are also very insightful. > > IMHO, if PicoBSD is to remain in the tree it should be built regularly > along with the snapshots and/or releases within the standard release > engineering processes. There simply isn't any "bite" when things are > committed that break PicoBSD in various ways, userland and kernel. I think that something like this can be arranged as long as it is non-interactive. A custom version of pico saved me a lot of time back in school when I was admin'ing 80+ FreeBSD workstations and about 30 NT workstations. (It was a client/server system that use dd and rsh to clone disks over the network so we could clone workstations w/o having to pull drives out and swap them around.) So, I've got a little soft spot for pico. :) > I think we'll see jet-powered flying chihuahuas before that happens > though :-) > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > jhix@mindspring.com -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 11:32:58 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED3737B891 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26954 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:32:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id MAA21450 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:32:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007251832.MAA21450@harmony.village.org> To: small@freebsd.org Subject: Notes on mkflash Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:32:25 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK. Here's my notes on mkflash. You can get mkflash from http://people.freebsd.org/~imp/mkflash-0.1.tar.gz This is really just a snapshot right now since I wanted to get it out the door. To try it out, here's some notes. Extract the tarballs into an empty directory. I didn't put an extra level in this tarball. cd test-jig You'll notice a few files: disk.conf Contains a file that describes to my diskprep command how you want your disk setup as. flash.conf A fairly generic config file for the infamous test jig that I keep making references to in postings. imp.conf You'll need to create your own $LOGNAME.conf with pointers to your target disk as well as the kernel name (since I'm pretty sure most people don't have TIMER config file). I don't override KernelName here since I do have a TIMER config :-) once you've set things up right and have a buildworld tree, you should be able to just type make and have it do the right thing. Be careful. Here's the docs from the mkflash.sh utility. # # env vars used: # DevSize - size of /dev mfs partition (sets 'devsize' parameter # in target's /etc/rc.conf) # DiskConfig - name of the disk config file used to invoke 'diskprep' # ExtraFileDirs - List of directories which should be copied recursive to # / of the flash. # FreeBSDProgramDirs - list of dirs under FreeBSDSrcDir of stuff that # should be installed # FreeBSDSrcDir - where the top level Makefile.inc1 resides for the # FreeBSD source tree (like /usr/src) # HasSerialConsole - put '-h' in target's /boot.config if YES # KernelName - name of the kernel config file (used to find the # directory containing the desired kernel) # MAKEOBJDIRPREFIX - where FreeBSD was built (like /usr/obj) # PasswordEntry - an optional password file entry to go into # /etc/master.passwd on the target # PruneList - List of files freebsd installs that we should ax. # RootDiskUnit - the target's root disk unit number (written to # the target's /boot/loader.conf) # TargetDevice - the device name (without the /dev) used to find # the target when building. This is not the same # as the device name used by the disk after installed # in its final destination. It is the name # of the device when the device is on the build # system. # TargetRootDevice - name of the device as used on the destination # system, not the build system. # TargetTmpMount - temporary mount point # VarSize - size of /var mfs partition (sets 'varsize' parameter # in target's /etc/rc.conf) # have fun. Please send me any comments that you have on this :-) Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 12:11:18 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from exe-snetrt-109.itg.discovery.com (auth02.itg.discovery.com [216.35.209.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3178F37B9B9 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrick@freebsd.org) Received: by exe-snetrt-109.itg.discovery.com; id TAA20001; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:11:11 GMT Received: by exe-s45k-23.itg.discovery.com; id TAA27209; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:11:11 GMT Received: by ds-01.itg.discovery.com; id IAA07373; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by bet-su5-154.itg.discovery.com; id IAA02782; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <397D88A0.9F69ACAE@freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:31:28 -0400 From: Patrick Gardella X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > I've been wondering a bit, after someone brought it up a while back: what > are the chances of the TinyBSD kit making it into the FreeBSD source tree > once it's good enough? I would say that it depends on if people are using it or not, and if you continue to work on it. Interest plays a big part in what happens around here. Patrick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 12:15: 9 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB7837B8B6 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:15:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@pike.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA02041; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) From: John Baldwin Message-Id: <200007251914.MAA02041@pike.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Jul 25, 2000 12:47:12 pm" To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Cc: small@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Well, it appears that many people would like some radical change to our > group in order fire up some genuine progress and keep small FreeBSD from > dying. There seems to be a lot of support for establishing some formal > organization. I suggest we elect, as Albert said, a 'Captain'. I have to agree with Warner on this. What you really want to do is use www.freebsd.org/~small/ or some such. In fact, www.FreeBSD.org/~picobsd/ already exists. It could probably do with some cleanup, but it is already there. I'm sure that if you wanted to register picobsd.org and point it to there, core would have no problem with that, although you might want to ask first before spending the $$$ to get the domain name. Also, as Warner said, what picoBSD really needs is just a MAINTAINER. You don't need to elect a MAINTAINER. A MAINTAINER is whoever happens to spend their time in a certain area of the code. For example, with the exception of the forth stuff, I am about the only person who commits to src/sys/boot/i386 nowadays. Although only a couple of modules actually list me as the maintainer, I've ended up as the de facto maintainer for the x86 bootstrap as a result. That is how things work in this project, by people stepping up and getting work done. Also, as Jerry Hicks said, we probably need to integrate picoBSD into make release so that the daily snapshots build it. This combined with a little poking of committers when the snapshots fail will help a lot in keeping pico from getting left behind. As long as you end up with a non-interactive build process I can call from make (i.e., either a script or a makefile), I'm willing to work on this end once you have settled on a build process. I'd also like to move the actual installation floppies into the picoBSD area eventually as well. > =============================== > Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) > jss@subatomix.com -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 12:31:36 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.eznet.net (mail2-old.eznet.net [207.50.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FB0A37B925 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from progress@eznet.net) Received: (qmail 28875 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 19:31:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO shell1.eznet.net) (207.50.128.10) by vmail.eznet.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 19:31:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:31:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Future Beacon To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: <397D88A0.9F69ACAE@freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm new to the group. Where do I go to find out which programs and functions are included in the current draft of TinyBSD? I am looking for a way to get a version that only has text-mode video, a keyboard driver, 3.5" floppy, access to all of RAM, and the ability to run other programs if they are present. I don't networking or a modem. The hard disk drive does not need to be involved except possibly to make a floppy from a downloaded file. If NASM is included, can it be simply placed on the disk the way you would do it in DOS, or do you have to remake the whole thing? I do need an assembler and an editor. If there has been any difficulty getting what you want small enough, let me assure you that there are important applications for what I have described. The machine-control industries, including robotics need a much smaller operating system than Unix or Windows. That's also true of the chemical process industries. Thank you for your help. Jim Trek Future Beacon Technology http://eznet.net/~progress progress@eznet.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 14:10:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (mimer.webgiro.com [212.209.29.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 685C637B6DD for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@webgiro.com) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 9759E2DC0B; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:15:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E16097817; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:06:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D442510E17; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:06:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:06:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is just to apologize that I doln't paricipate actively in he discussion. I'm on vacation now, I have very poor connectivity, but generally speaking I agree that; * we need a coordinator, and Jeffrey could be the man here * we proably need to throw away most of the current messy code, which came up to life as a quick hack, but unforunately became popular... * the new picobsd IMHO should still be part of main source tree, because there are quite a few small knobs and hacks here and there that are highly dependent on the system sources. * the new build process should be Makefile based, so that it canbe done regularly as part of the release build. * the ports' Makefiles should be equipped wih knobs ande patches needed to use them as parts of images. * we need to provide some workimg images to the public, and reconstruct the web pages I'm going to have more time in October, I could help then... But IMHO the above things need to start rolling ASAP. On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Tue 2000-07-25 (08:46), Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > * I believe that the current Pico kit needs to be thrown out and replaced > > with something entirely new. > > > > * Having made my own "Tiny" variant, I believe that I have a darn good > > candidate for 'something entirely new'. :) > > What do you think of the make(1)-based system in picobsd/custom at the > moment, and the Patrick's extensions to it (advertised a few days ago, > which I haven't had the necessary time to look at yet). > > I can't imagine there's a better approach than a make(1)-based system, > like the rest of the build. The power of our make(1) build systems > (ports, release, world, and now doc) is one of FreeBSD's great > strengths. > > Actually, while we're at it, can we get a list of the small FreeBSD kits > and their URLs? > > Perhaps we should move the PicoBSD web pages into the FreeBSD web page > space, so we can get CVS and stuff going. Any ideas, Andrzej? > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > Sunesi Clinical Systems > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > > Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 14:56:15 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E4037B638 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:56:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09403 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:58:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:58:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Unless there are some negative replies to this, let's do it. On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Everyone Else wrote: > > ACK! PFFT! Ok, let's forget about it then. I apologize for getting so carried away. I'd still like to help out in increased capacity, and to work toward integrating ideas/code from all our variant kits to create a new, better Pico. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 15: 3:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 72D7037BA44 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 5221 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 22:03:12 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 22:03:12 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([209.245.65.144]) by achtung.com ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:03:09 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:00:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Design Specs Message-ID: <397DAB9D.25342.FF18EE@localhost> References: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I always like to have an agenda of what is going to happen before a meeting, so people can be kept accountable for schedules during that meeting; same I think goes for builds. I don't want Pico to be a trashcan, I want some design specs, what flavors will have what, what specific functions etc... Also, the "captain" need not be the best programmer or engineer, just the person who is willing to take charge and be the person who oversees the big picture. If that's Jeffrey, then I'm all for it. We need some order. Also, I think Makefile based is great. That way, we can test different builds, and archive builds as needed. picobsd.org, and picobsd.com has been taken. I tried in the past to purchase picobsd.com, but I don't remember why but Network solutions bombed out, and so I didn't get it. Someone later on took it. The register's name for picobsd.org and .com is TUCOWS, so I guess tucows bought it... It's OK, I think sticking with the main group is good. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think we should try for modularity. I kind of agree, instead of having flavors, we can have modules, and you pick and choose what items you want, like a BSD Buffet. If you guys what references, http://www.achtung.com/smallwall.html That's my personal homepage, I try (although not very successful) to keep links on projects that are like PicoBSD. Small firewalls etc... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 15: 4:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F4DF37BA41 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 6342 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2000 22:04:45 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 2000 22:04:45 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([209.245.65.144]) by achtung.com ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:04:39 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:02:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: modularity Message-ID: <397DABF5.20363.10070E7@localhost> References: <20000725162648.A18036@mithrandr.moria.org> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://sunsite.auc.dk/mulinux/ Mulinux (micro linux) is a good reference on what some of the good implementations of modularity on a floppy looks like. I'm excited, finally going to get PicoBSD back on track. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 15:34:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from pike.osd.bsdi.com (pike.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF6E37BB05 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@pike.osd.bsdi.com) Received: (from jhb@localhost) by pike.osd.bsdi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA10278; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb) From: John Baldwin Message-Id: <200007252233.PAA10278@pike.osd.bsdi.com> Subject: Re: On the future of freebsd-small In-Reply-To: from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Jul 25, 2000 04:58:16 pm" To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Cc: small@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > Unless there are some negative replies to this, let's do it. > > On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Everyone Else wrote: > > > > ACK! PFFT! > > Ok, let's forget about it then. I apologize for getting so carried away. Heh, it's ok. Enthusiasm is good though, and we definitely appreciate that. > I'd still like to help out in increased capacity, and to work toward > integrating ideas/code from all our variant kits to create a new, better > Pico. I doubt many of us will stand in your way. Work on the code and design parts and let the politics take care of itself. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.cslab.vt.edu/~jobaldwi/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 15:43:11 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from web111.yahoomail.com (web111.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 459EC37BACE for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyeske@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 20832 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Jul 2000 22:42:58 -0000 Message-ID: <20000725224258.20831.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com> Received: from [199.108.80.150] by web111.yahoomail.com; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:42:58 PDT Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:42:58 -0700 (PDT) From: David Yeske Subject: freebsd express To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Does anyone know what happened to FreeBSD express? I thought it was a good idea. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Jul 25 21:42:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FF4F37B581 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 11906 invoked from network); 26 Jul 2000 04:42:24 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 26 Jul 2000 04:42:24 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([63.209.91.205]) by achtung.com ; Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:42:20 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:39:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: freebsd express Message-ID: <397E0926.1478.45E45F@localhost> In-reply-to: <20000725224258.20831.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG What is freebsd express? Someone care to enlighten me? Is that like BSD in 30 minutes or less or you get your money back? Albert To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Jul 26 3: 2:30 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D2037B76F for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13HO10-0007k0-00; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:02:14 +0200 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:02:14 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Albert Yang Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd express Message-ID: <20000726120214.A29714@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <20000725224258.20831.qmail@web111.yahoomail.com> <397E0926.1478.45E45F@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <397E0926.1478.45E45F@localhost>; from albert@achtung.com on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 09:39:50PM -0700 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue 2000-07-25 (21:39), Albert Yang wrote: > What is freebsd express? Someone care to enlighten me? Is that like > BSD in 30 minutes or less or you get your money back? I think it was FreeBSD with a filesystem in a file on a DOS disk, vnconfig'd as your filesystem. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Jul 26 7:15:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634EA37BBD0 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 07:15:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10729 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:17:06 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:17:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: TinyBSD Documentation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1287881598-964621026=:10698" Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-1287881598-964621026=:10698 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Attached is the current revision of the TinBSD kit user's guide, which pretty much serves as my design document. Give it a read, all, and tell me what you think. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? 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IHRoYXQNCmlsbHVzdHJhdGVzIHVzYWdlIG9mIG1vc3Qgb2YgdGhlIGJhc2lj IG9wdGlvbnM/XQ0KDQoNCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT0NCjYuIFRvIERvDQoNCiogSW1wbGVtZW50IHdheSBtdWNo IG1vcmUgY2hlY2tpbmcgZm9yIHVzZXIgZXJyb3JzLiAgSXQncyB0b28gZWFz eSB0bw0Kc2NyZXcgc3R1ZmYgdXAgd2l0aG91dCBrbm93aW5nIHdoeS4NCg0K KiBDb25zdHJ1Y3QgbWFueSBtb3JlIGV4YW1wbGUgYnVpbGR0eXBlcy4NCg0K KiBJbXByb3ZlIHRoaXMgZmlsZS4NCg== --0-1287881598-964621026=:10698-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Jul 26 7:36: 1 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from lepton.subatomix.com (okc-27-143-173.mmcable.com [24.27.143.173]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D271B37B720 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 07:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Received: from localhost (jss@localhost) by lepton.subatomix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10750; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:37:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@lepton.subatomix.com) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:37:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Warner Losh Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , W Gerald Hicks , Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The heart of the problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > We'd likely be better off defining "packages" of programs in the base > > system that we can then glue together at a higher level to create the > > system that we want. This will allow a more generic mixing and > > matching of system components and allow a higher level of automation > > than we have with the current config file system. > > > > I'll be the first to admit my scripts haven't taken this step > > Mine neither. Well, I lied. My conf files are just glorified shell scripts, read by the config script with the '.' command. There's nothing stopping the use of '.' in the conf files themselves -- an include directive. So I can do the package thing (which I like; thanks for the idea). For example: . $STUFF/net-crunch.fs.inc One cool side-effect of doing packages this way is that packages can use any valid filesystem conf command, and thus can include not only programs, but files, directories, links, etc. =============================== Jeffrey S. Sharp (XorAxAx) jss@subatomix.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version 3.12 GCS/IT/MU d-@ s-:+ a21 C++(++++) UBL+(+++$)> P L+(+++$)> E+> W++ N+(++) o? K? w++$> !O M(-) !V PS+ PE Y PGP- t+ 5 X+ R(+) tv+ b+ DI++(+++) G++ e> h--- r+++ y+++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Jul 26 10: 6:40 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from gaia.nimnet.asn.au (nimbin.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.45.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3219137BD1C for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Received: from localhost (smithi@localhost) by gaia.nimnet.asn.au (8.8.8/8.8.8R1.0) with SMTP id DAA20985; Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:06:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from smithi@nimnet.asn.au) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 03:06:02 +1000 (EST) From: Ian Smith To: Warner Losh Cc: W Gerald Hicks , "Jeffrey S. Sharp" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: TinyBSD kit progress report In-Reply-To: <200007250814.CAA17951@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 25 Jul 2000, Warner Losh wrote: > For what it is worth, I've had excellent luck with a config file plus > a shell script on a freshly built world in creating bootable CF images > in the 13M-16M range. It works really well. It isn't 1 floppy, > doesn't do compression, etc. A compressed image will likely fit on a > 4MB flash part. I did things this way so that the parts would be > easily updatable in the field. One drawback of this approach is that > I build directly onto the media I'm creating. > > If there's interest, I can see if I can release this stuff. It has > been very useful at Timing Solutions. For what it's worth, I'd be most interested in this. Yes please Warner. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Jul 26 12:21:31 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from server.tiernetworking.com (server.tiernetworking.com [209.136.195.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928F037BFAC for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Received: from tiernetworking.com (office-5.cswnet.com [209.136.201.34]) by server.tiernetworking.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15369 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:20:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from lance@tiernetworking.com) Message-ID: <397F3AD1.3430784F@tiernetworking.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:24:01 -0500 From: Lance Woodson Organization: Tier Networking, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd express References: <397E0926.1478.45E45F@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Albert Yang wrote: > > What is freebsd express? Someone care to enlighten me? Is that like > BSD in 30 minutes or less or you get your money back? FreeBSD Express was a bootable iso image with several programs including the x window system already installed. IIRC, /etc was loaded into memory so you could change the config settings and write them to a floppy to be loaded on the next boot. The last version I've seen was 3.2. Thanks, Lance Woodson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 5:23:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from hermes.element-5.de (hermes.element-5.de [195.185.111.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AF3F37B56D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 05:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from glaess@element5.de) Received: (qmail 2066 invoked by uid 85); 28 Jul 2000 12:23:44 -0000 Received: from glaess@element5.de by hermes.element5.de with scan4virus-0.53 (sweep: 1.9/3.35. . Clean. Processed in 0.340085 secs); 28/07/2000 14:23:44 Received: from fw2.cc.element5.de (HELO element5.de) (192.168.11.2) by hermes.element-5.de with SMTP; 28 Jul 2000 12:23:43 -0000 Message-ID: <39817B53.1E0181A0@element5.de> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:23:47 +0200 From: holger glaess Reply-To: glaess@element5.de Organization: element5 ag X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.1-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 14: 9:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from janus.hosting4u.net (janus.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A00C37B7C5 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from albert@achtung.com) Received: (qmail 27634 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2000 21:09:06 -0000 Received: from mercury.hosting4u.net (HELO achtung.com) (209.15.2.5) by mail-gate.hosting4u.net with SMTP; 28 Jul 2000 21:09:06 -0000 Received: from psylocke ([209.245.76.46]) by achtung.com ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:09:05 -0500 From: "Albert Yang" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:06:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Structure? Message-ID: <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK guys, I was thinking we should throw together an agreed upon structure for Pico? I was thinking we'd do like FreeBSD, have a stable and a current; with maybe 4 releases to the stable tree every year, or whenever we feel that a release is stable. I figure we'd start with /stable and /current. To facilitate a migratory path towards modularity of Pico, I thought we'd do this. We'd have a modules directory of all the different modules available for Pico. Then we'd have a /make section which kept all the make files against the modules. Then if I wanted, I can just go to the make directory and do a make, and it would grab against the modules directory, and cough me up a floppy. If it's a stupid idea, let me know, I'm open for suggestions. I just want to get some process and structure underway. A small sample is shown below. Albert /STABLE /modules /1.0.0 /make /dialup /1.0.0 /1.0.2 /1.1.1 /router /1.0.0 /1.0.2 /1.1.1 /dialup /1.0.0 /1.0.2 /1.1.1 /isp /1.0.0 /1.0.2 /1.1.1 /CURRENT /modules /1.0.0 /make /dialup /1.0.0 /router /1.0.0 /ppp /1.0.0 /isp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 14:33: 6 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.sunesi.net (ns1.sunesi.net [196.15.192.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4DF37B68D for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@sunesi.net) Received: from nbm by ns1.sunesi.net with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 13IHkS-000HTO-00; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:32:52 +0200 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 23:32:52 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Albert Yang Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Structure? Message-ID: <20000728233252.A67144@mithrandr.moria.org> References: <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost>; from albert@achtung.com on Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 02:06:17PM -0700 Organization: Sunesi Clinical Systems X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386 X-URL: http://rucus.ru.ac.za/~nbm/ Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri 2000-07-28 (14:06), Albert Yang wrote: > OK guys, I was thinking we should throw together an agreed upon > structure for Pico? I was thinking we'd do like FreeBSD, have a > stable and a current; with maybe 4 releases to the stable tree every > year, or whenever we feel that a release is stable. Or we just follow the FreeBSD timetable, and use the FreeBSD -current and -stable branches, as usual. > Then we'd have a /make section which kept all the make > files against the modules. picobsd/share/mk, probably. I've got a few commits in store for continuing my existing work on the make(1) based system grog started, and I should have a document outlining my suggestions on advancing with PicoBSD. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner Sunesi Clinical Systems nbm@mithrandr.moria.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 15:14:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FF637B82B for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA43499; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:14:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA60182; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:14:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007282214.QAA60182@harmony.village.org> To: "Albert Yang" Subject: Re: Structure? Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:06:17 PDT." <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> References: <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:14:32 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> "Albert Yang" writes: : OK guys, I was thinking we should throw together an agreed upon : structure for Pico? I was thinking we'd do like FreeBSD, have a : stable and a current; with maybe 4 releases to the stable tree every : year, or whenever we feel that a release is stable. The version numbers are a stupid idea. Warenr To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 15:33: 4 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from bryan.solnet.ch (bryan.solnet.ch [212.101.4.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D877A37C091 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pi@pfadi.ch) Received: from skye.elocom.ch (pi.elocom.ch [212.101.5.253]) by bryan.solnet.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14154 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:32:44 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:32:45 +0200 (CEST) From: reto trachsel X-Sender: pi@skye.elocom.ch To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Structure? In-Reply-To: <20000728233252.A67144@mithrandr.moria.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi All On Fri, 28 Jul 2000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Or we just follow the FreeBSD timetable, and use the FreeBSD -current > and -stable branches, as usual. I think this would be the best. With this system we could see with BSD code is running on the Floppy. !-> Regards Reto Trachsel v/o Pi /"\ ASCII-Ribon Campaign \ / """""""""""""""""""" x No HTML or WORD in Mails / \ HTML is for WEB, Word is for Micro$oft. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 15:33:20 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from dante.high5.net (dante.high5.net [194.109.18.218]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F31637BE54 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mischa@dante.high5.net) Received: (from mischa@localhost) by dante.high5.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA46904; Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:32:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mischa) Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:32:55 +0200 From: Mischa Peters To: Warner Losh Cc: Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Structure? Message-ID: <20000729003255.B72431@high5.net> References: <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> <200007282214.QAA60182@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200007282214.QAA60182@harmony.village.org>; from imp@village.org on Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:14:32PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:14:32PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> "Albert Yang" writes: > : OK guys, I was thinking we should throw together an agreed upon > : structure for Pico? I was thinking we'd do like FreeBSD, have a > : stable and a current; with maybe 4 releases to the stable tree every > : year, or whenever we feel that a release is stable. > > The version numbers are a stupid idea. Because? Mischa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Jul 28 15:36:16 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5B437BBDF for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:36:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA43577; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:36:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA60354; Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:36:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <200007282236.QAA60354@harmony.village.org> To: Mischa Peters Subject: Re: Structure? Cc: Albert Yang , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:32:55 +0200." <20000729003255.B72431@high5.net> References: <20000729003255.B72431@high5.net> <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> <200007282214.QAA60182@harmony.village.org> Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:36:02 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20000729003255.B72431@high5.net> Mischa Peters writes: : On Fri, Jul 28, 2000 at 04:14:32PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: : > In message <39819359.5807.123A2B0@localhost> "Albert Yang" writes: : > : OK guys, I was thinking we should throw together an agreed upon : > : structure for Pico? I was thinking we'd do like FreeBSD, have a : > : stable and a current; with maybe 4 releases to the stable tree every : > : year, or whenever we feel that a release is stable. : > : > The version numbers are a stupid idea. : : Because? Because you'll wind up copying files from one version to the next. Having the versions in the tree is a big pita when you go to do another version. It is just a really bad idea that has been done in the past and caused an extreme level of pain. Versioning is what cvs is for. Don't polute teh build tree with them. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message