From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 0:38: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E82B37B424; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3M7c3k55099; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:38:03 -0700 Message-ID: <00cc01c0caff$2a0648a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <200104220409.f3M49vM41982@freefall.freebsd.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG And, has this info been added to http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#mailing-list nope, I see that it has not. Kris, you didn't do a through job of correcting this defect, please reopen it until the web page has been corrected. You might also want to add this to the FAQ too - I already sent it in for placement under the miscellaneous questions, but it hasn't been added. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of kris@FreeBSD.ORG >Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:10 PM >To: riccardo@torrini.org; kris@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home >and from work > > >Synopsis: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work > >State-Changed-From-To: open->closed >State-Changed-By: kris >State-Changed-When: Sat Apr 21 21:07:40 PDT 2001 >State-Changed-Why: >This is an anti-spam measure which is in common use -- >use your ISP's outbound mail server instead of sending mail >directly. You will have problems with many other sites on >the internet unless you do. > >http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=26744 > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 0:43:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A767E37B422; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EAB8E66BAA; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:43:31 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG, riccardo@torrini.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200104220409.f3M49vM41982@freefall.freebsd.org> <00cc01c0caff$2a0648a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00cc01c0caff$2a0648a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:38:03AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:38:03AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > And, has this info been added to > http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#mailing-list > nope, I see that it has not. Kris, you didn't do a through > job of correcting this defect, please reopen it until the > web page has been corrected. You might also want to add this > to the FAQ too - I already sent it in for placement under > the miscellaneous questions, but it hasn't been added. Submit your patch as a followup if it's not already in the PR database..if it is, then this one is a duplicate anyway. Kris --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE64oujWry0BWjoQKURAqGWAJ4y6i2yQe3h2WnxJYs+qf0gshVkvACdEy6B sauFGqACNrjcGbxhFgPUvtQ= =Y4Ae -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gBBFr7Ir9EOA20Yy-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 0:44: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3030E37B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3M7hxk55130; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Mikhail Kruk" , Subject: RE: PC Magazine, Mac OS X (fwd) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:43:59 -0700 Message-ID: <00ce01c0caff$fdd77140$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Mikhail Kruk > >------ >The clunkiness of the Unix operating system is apparent at log-on. >Case-sensitive user names and passwords are required, which is a bit >of a tedious distraction. Obviously they come from the "The only good OS is an insecure OS" school. > >What are they smoking? > Parsley, most likely. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:12:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CFB37B424; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:12:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3M8CBk55178; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: , , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:12:11 -0700 Message-ID: <00d801c0cb03$ee6f8400$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent the FAQ question to faq@freebsd.org some time ago. Is this the wrong mailbox for new FAQ questions? I frankly don't blame the users for complaining about this one - deviations from generally used practices should always be documented, and (unfortunately) most mailing lists on the Internet are still not in any sort of compliance with good spamfiltering practices. While submitting a PR is hardly the proper (or tactful) way to fix the documenting on this problem, it's certainly a resourceful one, and the submitter deserves more than to simply have his is PR closed with an explanation in only the PR. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kris Kennaway >Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 12:44 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG; riccardo@torrini.org; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home >and from work > > >On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:38:03AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> And, has this info been added to >> http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#mailing-list >> nope, I see that it has not. Kris, you didn't do a through >> job of correcting this defect, please reopen it until the >> web page has been corrected. You might also want to add this >> to the FAQ too - I already sent it in for placement under >> the miscellaneous questions, but it hasn't been added. > >Submit your patch as a followup if it's not already in the PR >database..if it is, then this one is a duplicate anyway. > >Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:30:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99EFC37B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3M8U2076525; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104220830.f3M8U2076525@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Reply-To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR misc/26744; it has been noted by GNATS. From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:25:09 -0700 Here's another question for the FAQ: HELP! I can't send e-mail from my newly installed FreeBSD system (AKA I can't send mail to freebsd.org) [Preamble] Note that this is NOT the RECIPIENT'S problem, this is a SENDER'S problem - ie: YOU. A cardinal rule on the Internet is that any mailserver is permitted to _not_ accept any mail for any reason whatsover. YOU do NOT have a right to TRANSMIT mail to anyone you choose. However, the RECIPIENT _always_ has the right to REJECT any mail they want to. Now that we got that straight, here's how YOU can fix YOUR server. [explanation] Unfortunately, the increased amount of spamming done on the Internet has forced most administrators running mailservers to take action to block spam, or mail messages that have a high probability of being spam. As a result of this, today most mailservers require ONE of the following at minimum to accept an incoming E-mail message: 1) The mail message must be originating from an IP number that is an "allowed set" of IP numbers. 2) The mail message must be originating from an IP number that is both forward and reverse resolvable in the DNS, and in addition those resolutions must be symmectrical. For example, a user has a FreeBSD system that is named "freebsd.example.org" and that is dialed into a dialup ISP using PPP. The FreeBSD system has an IP number assigned by the ISP of 155.4.3.5. For any arbitrary mailserver on the Internet to accept mail from the user's FreeBSD system, any Internet user MUST be able to issue the command "nslookup 155.4.3.5" and get the name "freebsd.example.org" and must ALSO be able to issue the command "nslookup freebsd.example.org" and get a response of the IP number 155.4.3.5 If they cannot do this, or if the first nslookup gets a name like "dialup-pool-5.myisp.example.org" and the second nslookup gets a response like "host not found", then you while you will be able to SEND mail, very few mailservers on the Internet will permit RECEPTION of your mail message. [answer] To get around this, assuming that your ISP's master mailserver is named "mail-myisp.example.org" what you need to do is modify the file /etc/mail/sendmail.cf and find the line: # "Smart" relay host (may be null) DS and modify the DS line as such: DSmail-myisp.example.org then force sendmail to reread it's config file with the command: kill -HUP `head -1 /etc/mail/sendmail.pid` This makes your mailserver spool all outgoing e-mail through your ISP's mailserver, which presumably will accept mail from you by use of rule #1 detailed above. (allowed IP numbers) If your ISP's mailserver is screwed for some reason, then find what is known as a "promiscious open relay" mailserver on the Internet and use that. (it's a poor substitute, since those systems generally get black-holed very quickly by ORBS and MAPS) Or, better yet, complain to your ISP, this is what your paying them for. Note that the FreeBSD mailserver that the freebsd-questions mailing list is running on is one of those Internet mailservers that follows the above rules. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:34:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7AF537B424; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id AF8DB66BAA; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:34:17 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Kris Kennaway , kris@FreeBSD.ORG, riccardo@torrini.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010422013417.A62955@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> <00d801c0cb03$ee6f8400$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00d801c0cb03$ee6f8400$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:12:11AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:12:11AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I sent the FAQ question to faq@freebsd.org some time ago. > Is this the wrong mailbox for new FAQ questions? Yes, you should send your PR using send-pr(8) or the web interface. Emails which are sent to mailing lists tend to get lost; we have the GNATS database precisely so this kind of thing can be tracked. > I frankly don't blame the users for complaining about this > one - deviations from generally used practices should > always be documented, and (unfortunately) most mailing lists > on the Internet are still not in any sort of compliance > with good spamfiltering practices. While submitting a PR > is hardly the proper (or tactful) way to fix the documenting > on this problem, it's certainly a resourceful one, and the submitter > deserves more than to simply have his is PR closed with an > explanation in only the PR. Fine, you've apparently written one for him in the form of your FAQ patches..thanks. Kris --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE64peJWry0BWjoQKURAlzhAKCIKSIRo6JKLS/CTrRM7TETdowGwgCfY9fc 3iyG7fsWGz5TX2PFNCsq4VI= =jD7m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --d6Gm4EdcadzBjdND-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:38:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D496137B422; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3M8cXk55249; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:38:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Kris Kennaway" Cc: , , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:38:33 -0700 Message-ID: <00f701c0cb07$9d8dcf20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG OK, I sent 2 followups, one is in the form of a FAQ question, one is an HTML addition to the webpage on freebsd.org. Hopefully this will put this issue to bed. :-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Kris Kennaway [mailto:kris@obsecurity.org] >Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 12:44 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG; riccardo@torrini.org; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home >and from work > > >On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:38:03AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> And, has this info been added to >> http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#mailing-list >> nope, I see that it has not. Kris, you didn't do a through >> job of correcting this defect, please reopen it until the >> web page has been corrected. You might also want to add this >> to the FAQ too - I already sent it in for placement under >> the miscellaneous questions, but it hasn't been added. > >Submit your patch as a followup if it's not already in the PR >database..if it is, then this one is a duplicate anyway. > >Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:40: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE83737B424 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:40:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3M8e2D77084; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:40:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104220840.f3M8e2D77084@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Reply-To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR misc/26744; it has been noted by GNATS. From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:36:15 -0700 Modify http://www.freebsd.org/support.html as to the following: In the section mailing list archives at www.FreeBSD.org.

The FreeBSD Conspectus is a make the following addition mailing list archives at www.FreeBSD.org.

NOTE that the mailing list listserver on freebsd.org has spamfilters applied, and you can NOT subscribe to it from an e-mail address that is on a mailserver that doesen't carry a proper reverse address record (PTR record) in the DNS. If your in this boat you have 4 choices. You may fix the DNS for your mailserver, you may reconfigure your mailserver to spool through your ISP's mailserver (which presumably has a proper reverse address record), you may subscribe to an account on Hotmail or other on-line mailservice, or you can change ISPs.

The FreeBSD Conspectus is a To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 1:46: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-27.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0141037B422; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9AAB266BAA; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 01:45:57 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Kris Kennaway , kris@FreeBSD.ORG, riccardo@torrini.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010422014557.A63274@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> <00f701c0cb07$9d8dcf20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00f701c0cb07$9d8dcf20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:38:33AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:38:33AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > OK, I sent 2 followups, one is in the form of a FAQ question, > one is an HTML addition to the webpage on freebsd.org. Hopefully > this will put this issue to bed. :-) Thanks Ted. Kris --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE64ppFWry0BWjoQKURAq7kAKDU3bAQcuFkiQh8E/MQr1ZlK4b/oACghBlH 6zRNHNL1Pmeie+wWqSye89s= =7nUa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 2:10: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61D837B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3M9A2p86919; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 02:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104220910.f3M9A2p86919@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: Szilveszter Adam Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Reply-To: Szilveszter Adam Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR misc/26744; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Szilveszter Adam To: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-gnats-submit@freebsd.org Cc: Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:03:10 +0200 Hello, On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:30:02AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Here's another question for the FAQ: > > HELP! I can't send e-mail from my newly installed FreeBSD system > (AKA I can't send mail to freebsd.org) > > > [Preamble] > Note that this is NOT the RECIPIENT'S problem, this is a SENDER'S > problem - ie: YOU. A cardinal rule on the Internet is that any > mailserver is permitted to _not_ accept any mail for any reason whatsover. > YOU do NOT have a right to TRANSMIT mail to anyone you choose. However, > the RECIPIENT _always_ has the right to REJECT any mail they want to. > Now that we got that straight, here's how YOU can fix YOUR server. Ted, please. Don't shout. You are writing a FAQ entry right? You are trying to explain things to somebody who already has taken the trouble to check the FAQ, although nobody could possibly have told him that on any FreeBSD list, since his mails would never get through, not even to -questions, which is plain stupid BTW. How are you supposed to DTRT and ask if your mail is rejected? But this is another topic. Additionally, I really would like to see this preamble go. It simply smacks of "I have my gun and I own this house and I can do whatever the hell I want in it." This my be a popular line in some peoples' minds, but I would certainly not like it to see propagate and spread as something that should be followed. While it may be argued that you can do things to your machine, but a machine that hosts mailing lists, esp one for an OpenSource project that (notwithstanding Wes's comments to the contrary and his appreciation for the "Line up or Get lost!" approach taken by OpenBSD) actually cares about acceptance and is dependent on the people outta there, is not entirely yours and yours only anymore. You have volunteered to open it up, this brings responsibilities with it. This is not to make you happy, but to make the others happy. Sorry, that's the way it is. It especially resonates funny with the "The Power to Serve" slogen of the whole project. Who on earth are we serving then? This has nothing to do with blocking spam, this is just a general remark. Just as an aside, this alleged spam protection does not help much: The most spam I receive comes through the FreeBSD lists. And this, although my real email address is available in many public list archives on the web... it seems that spammers do have enough open relays at their disposal that match all of your criteria. Sigh. > [explanation] > Unfortunately, the increased amount of spamming done on the Internet > has forced most administrators running mailservers to take action to > block spam, or mail messages that have a high probability of being spam. Much better. <...snip...> > If your ISP's mailserver is screwed for some reason, then find what is known > as > a "promiscious open relay" mailserver on the Internet and use that. (it's a > poor substitute, since those systems generally get black-holed very quickly > by > ORBS and MAPS) Or, better yet, complain to your ISP, this is what your > paying them > for. Yeah. And if you are not paying them (like most university students here) and they have a stupid policy of not allowing relaying from all the machines but just a couple, than you are SOL. This means in my case no send-pr from my machine. (since I am of course not on the allowed list) and you cannot even do a whole lot. Because they are also people who believe that they are not here to serve others but to do whatever the hell they want... sad. > Note that the FreeBSD mailserver that the freebsd-questions mailing list > is running on is one of those Internet mailservers that follows the above > rules. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 3:50:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361A237B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3MAo4H10854; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 03:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104221050.f3MAo4H10854@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: Riccardo Torrini Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Reply-To: Riccardo Torrini Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR misc/26744; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Riccardo Torrini To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Kris Kennaway , Szilveszter Adam Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:47:22 +0200 (CEST) Thanks to all who take time to answer my PR. The only thing I don't understand is: why you think is more important (to try to) block spam instead of solve my (and not only my) problems? I send a lot of PR and I hope they may help all of us, but this was the one with the faster feedback. Bad :( > ...both forward and reverse resolvable in the DNS, and > in addition those resolutions must be symmectrical... Yeah. Great idea. So I can send trash mail to any mail server if I use a dialup line and configure my machine as "dialup-foo-bar-42.myisp.example.org" (the same as the reverse) and cannot send mail from the _STATIC_ _IP_ (was a cost option to me) that Italian RIPE never reverse? Asked for this problem RIPE told me that reverse with be removed within some years ahead. :-? Or because my work ISP (the biggest here in Italy) is badly configured and has different IP from forward to reverse in his DNS? And in your opinion why I'd continue to send-pr? > ...assuming that your ISP's master mailserver is named... Try the real thing: my ISP has his mailserver open to my static range of IP from work. Using /etc/mail/mailertable I forced mail for FreeBSD.org to him but failed again. And now I know why: it break the 2nd rule (symmectrical). # host mail.cs.interbusiness.it mail.cs.interbusiness.it has address 151.99.250.122 # host 151.99.250.122 Host not found. # host 151.99.250.6 6.250.99.151.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer mail.cs.interbusiness.it > spool all outgoing e-mail through your ISP's mailserver And loose all my mail in a black hole? Why? No, thanks. > "I have my gun and I own this house and I can do whatever the > hell I want in it." Not whatever, only avoid badly configured ISP, like mine. > "Line up or Get lost!" approach taken by OpenBSD. You lost. Lost my help. Sorry, but I have only a few free time and cannot loose it with web interface. > Just as an aside, this alleged spam protection does not help much: > The most spam I receive comes through the FreeBSD lists. Sigh. Not the most. The first spam I received was from freebsd-current. > This means in my case no send-pr from my machine. And the web interface cost me a lot of work because I cannot pre-configure any of the field of the form, for example. Best regards, Riccardo. /------------------------+---------------------------------------\ | Riccardo "VIC" Torrini | W.W.W.: www.torrini.org // | | Via Montebello, 64 | e-mail : riccardo@torrini.org // | | 50123 Firenze (I) +--------------------------------\\//---| | phone: +39-055-286.574 | This space for rent :-) | \------------------------+---------------------------------------/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 4:24:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 619F537B424 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3MBO3k55978; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:24:01 -0700 Message-ID: <010301c0cb1e$bb1be9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <200104220910.f3M9A2p86919@freefall.freebsd.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam > > Ted, please. Don't shout. You are writing a FAQ entry right? No, I'm writing a FAQ _submission_ which is different than an entry. This implies that whoever the FAQ maintainer is, that person is free to completely munge my entry beyond all recognition, and I expect that. I'm writing it from my point of vew and as such I'm obligated to make the best case for it. I would probably have written it differently if I was the actual FAQ maintainer because the maintainer has to edit the FAQ in such a way as to not piss off people, yet still get their point across. Since I'm only doing a submission, I'm free to be as obnoxious and radical as I want. :-) And, it so happens that I do feel strongly about this issue and I will be obnoxious and radical, because I think I'm right. :-) You are, of course, also free to write as obnoxious and radical FAQ entry as you want, from the completely opposite point of view. Then the FAQ maintainer takes both entries and either can side with you, or with me, or can try to find some compromise middle ground. You >are trying > to explain things to somebody who already has taken the trouble to check > the FAQ, although nobody could possibly have told him that on any FreeBSD > list, since his mails would never get through, not even to -questions, > which is plain stupid BTW. How are you supposed to DTRT and ask if your > mail is rejected? But this is another topic. > Which I answered by a second followup adjusting the webpage that lists the mailing lists. > Additionally, I really would > like to see this preamble go. It simply smacks of "I have my gun and I own > this house and I can do whatever the hell I want in it." This my be a > popular line in some peoples' minds, but I would certainly not like it to > see propagate and spread as something that should be followed. >While it may > be argued that you can do things to your machine, but a machine that hosts > mailing lists, esp one for an OpenSource project that >(notwithstanding Wes's > comments to the contrary and his appreciation for the "Line up or >Get lost!" > approach taken by OpenBSD) actually cares about acceptance and is >dependent > on the people outta there, is not entirely yours and yours only >anymore. You > have volunteered to open it up, this brings responsibilities with it. This > is not to make you happy, but to make the others happy. Sorry, that's the > way it is. It especially resonates funny with the "The Power to Serve" > slogen of the whole project. Who on earth are we serving then? > > This has nothing to do with blocking spam, this is just a > general remark. > I hear you, but understand that unless everyone on the Internet adopts the principle that a person's right to reject any arbitrary mail message on their mailserver for whatever reason is inviolate, then your opening the door to the spammers who all want to pass laws that require that ISP's accept spam that's "properly marked as spam" I don't know if you know this but either the ORBS or the MAPS database has already been sued by a spammer making exactly this argument - that they are providing a service that users want and that MAPS or ORBS has no right to interfere with mail transmission to a public mailserver. You can't even hint that any part of this is anything other than a problem at the transmitter's mailserver, or your going right down the road that the spammers want you to go down. Yes, I understand that in some cases it may be a lot easier for freebsd.org to change than for the user to change, but this is clearly the case of the good of the many outweighing the good of the few. By accepting that it's freebsd.org's problem, and thus they should change, your accepting the argument that they don't have total and absolute control over their mailserver anymore, because it's "public" Now, yes you can make a case that freebsd.org's existence is to serve the public, thus they are contrary to that principle by refusing any mail message. But, then the problem is "what defines a public mailserver that should implement these kinds of controls and what defines a public mailserver that shouldn't be implementing these kinds of controls" Well, the answer is "It's a grey decision." The problem with that, is that legislation does not like grey - they want everything black and white. From the law's point of view, if any public mailserver should be required to accept all mail, then _every_ public mailserver should be required to accept all mail. The law in every country in this day and age does not appear to want to get into depth with technology - I don't know if this is because legislators are afraid of it, or don't understand it or what. Nevertheless, if the attitude DOESEN'T get spread that "I have my gun and I own this house and I can do whatever the hell I want in it." in the case of Internet mailservers, then we will eventually have legislated spam, which would be far more damaging than a few people that can't subscribe to a mailing list. > Just as an aside, this alleged spam protection does not help >much: The most > spam I receive comes through the FreeBSD lists. And this, >although my real > email > address is available in many public list archives on the web... it seems > that spammers do have enough open relays at their disposal that >match all of > your criteria. Sigh. > Yes, I agree with this as well. I've been spamfighting a long, long time and in fact several years ago I wrote a series of articles that are up on the web that detail how to do it. I've come to the understanding that there is only one sure method of spamfighting that works, and thats content-filtering on the mailserver. I kill far, far more spam by filtering mail with words like "cum" or strings like "this is the best work at home" or "this is not a pyramind scheme" or my favorite "This e-mail sent in accordance", that last one is good for a large amount of spam. But, I also recognize that to some people the idea of content-filtering is political, and so they won't content-filter, and so they take whatever means are available to them to try and block spam. > > [explanation] > > Unfortunately, the increased amount of spamming done on the Internet > > has forced most administrators running mailservers to take action to > > block spam, or mail messages that have a high probability of >being spam. > > Much better. > > <...snip...> > > If your ISP's mailserver is screwed for some reason, then find >what is known > > as > > a "promiscious open relay" mailserver on the Internet and use >that. (it's a > > poor substitute, since those systems generally get black-holed >very quickly > > by > > ORBS and MAPS) Or, better yet, complain to your ISP, this is what your > > paying them > > for. > > Yeah. And if you are not paying them (like most university students here) > and they have a stupid policy of not allowing relaying from all the > machines but just a couple, than you are SOL. This means in my case no > send-pr from my machine. (since I am of course not on the allowed >list) and > you cannot even do a whole lot. Because they are also people who believe > that they are not here to serve others but to do whatever the hell they > want... sad. > How can they discriminate between your server and some arbitrary student's Win95 system? From the mailserver, both of you look exactly the same, you both communicate via SMTP. And, you are NOT sol either because you have several alternatives. First, you can elect to pay some other provider on the Internet for mail access. For example, at the ISP I work at we have shell accouts at $60 per year that you can ssh into and run Pine. Or, if you have a fixed IP number you could tell us and we would put it in the list of allowed relays and you could relay through us, and pop your mail from our server. There's got to be plenty of other ISP's out there that do this, some located closer to you. Or, if you can receive mail on a static IP number but not send it, then you can also find some kind admin on the net that will allow you to relay through their server for free - for example, I'd do it on my own home mailserver that's on a DSL line. Finally, there's the web-interface mail providers like hotmail. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 4:50:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A532B37B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from gnats@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3MBo4x24386; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gnats) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200104221150.f3MBo4x24386@freefall.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Reply-To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The following reply was made to PR misc/26744; it has been noted by GNATS. From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Riccardo Torrini" , Cc: "Kris Kennaway" , "Szilveszter Adam" Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:44:48 -0700 >-----Original Message----- >From: Riccardo Torrini [mailto:riccardo@torrini.org] >Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 3:47 AM >To: freebsd-gnats-submit@FreeBSD.org >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Kris Kennaway; Szilveszter Adam >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home >and from work > > >Thanks to all who take time to answer my PR. >The only thing I don't understand is: why you think is >more important (to try to) block spam instead of solve >my (and not only my) problems? > Because a lot of people on this list are admins at commercial locations and are in charge of mailservers. Once you take a few calls from people like the 45-year-old, fundamentalist Christian, home-schooler, stay-at-home mother of three who's 13 year old son is showing her how to read e-mail and she clicks on a message which opens to show Luscious Lucy with her feet up in the air and spread wide, well you might get a sense of how much of a problem that spam causes for us. >I send a lot of PR and I hope they may help all of us, >but this was the one with the faster feedback. Bad :( > Yes, it's very bad that people exist in the world who think it's their God-given right to stuff our e-mail mailboxes with all manner of baldness cure advertisements, or penile enlarger advertisements. > >> ...both forward and reverse resolvable in the DNS, and >> in addition those resolutions must be symmectrical... > >Yeah. Great idea. So I can send trash mail to any mail >server if I use a dialup line and configure my machine as >"dialup-foo-bar-42.myisp.example.org" (the same as the >reverse) and cannot send mail from the _STATIC_ _IP_ (was >a cost option to me) that Italian RIPE never reverse? That is correct - however keep in mind that MAPS has a Dial Up User List in place and the entire subnet that your ISP is using for dialup _may_ already be listed in there - which will make the change-my-hostname-to-the-dynamic-one trick not work. >Asked for this problem RIPE told me that reverse with be >removed within some years ahead. :-? > Then it's pretty clear who you should be arguing with, and it isn't us. >Or because my work ISP (the biggest here in Italy) is badly >configured and has different IP from forward to reverse in >his DNS? And in your opinion why I'd continue to send-pr? > And in my opinion why would your work continue to pay money for service from an ISP that was that technically daft? > >> ...assuming that your ISP's master mailserver is named... > >Try the real thing: my ISP has his mailserver open to my >static range of IP from work. Using /etc/mail/mailertable >I forced mail for FreeBSD.org to him but failed again. >And now I know why: it break the 2nd rule (symmectrical). > ># host mail.cs.interbusiness.it >mail.cs.interbusiness.it has address 151.99.250.122 > ># host 151.99.250.122 >Host not found. > ># host 151.99.250.6 >6.250.99.151.IN-ADDR.ARPA domain name pointer mail.cs.interbusiness.it > > >> spool all outgoing e-mail through your ISP's mailserver > >And loose all my mail in a black hole? Why? No, thanks. > Then find a beter mailserver out there and spool through that one. There's plenty of them. > >> "I have my gun and I own this house and I can do whatever the >> hell I want in it." > >Not whatever, only avoid badly configured ISP, like mine. > step #1 - don't pay for service from an ISP like that. > >> "Line up or Get lost!" approach taken by OpenBSD. > >You lost. Lost my help. Sorry, but I have only a few free >time and cannot loose it with web interface. > Then pay for a shell account on an ISP and do mailing from it. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 6:22:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (atreides.freenix.no [217.68.117.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEC537B423 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 06:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Received: (from morten@localhost) by freenix.no (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f3MDMij42977 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:22:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from morten) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:22:44 +0200 From: "Morten A . Middelthon" To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: top uptime! Message-ID: <20010422152244.D42830@freenix.no> References: <3AE07137.5B2EB5CB@acuson.com> <0104201825111T.20864@dehumanizer.meganet.pt> <0104201829431V.20864@dehumanizer.meganet.pt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <0104201829431V.20864@dehumanizer.meganet.pt>; from deh@meganet.pt on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 06:29:43PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE X-Warning: So cunning you could brush your teeth with it. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 06:29:43PM +0100, Pedro Timoteo wrote: > On Friday 20 April 2001 18:25, you wrote: > > I'm not saying that Linux is more stable (I know it isn't, I use both), but > > in this case I don't think the stability of Linux is fairly shown here. > > Also (it's funny to reply to my own message), for a FreeBSD to have an uptime > greater than 1000 days, it's got to be an early 2.x. So, this list shows > nothing about the stability of 3.x or 4.x. I'm not *doubting* it's great, but > we'll only have "proof" when in 3 or 4 years there are some 4.xs still > running. I just lost my 320 day uptime on a 4.0-STABLE box due to power failure :( But, since it was rebooted I used the opportunity to upgrade to 4.3-STABLE :} -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ -- You don't sew with a fork, so I see no reason to eat with knitting needles. -- Miss Piggy, on eating Chinese Food To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 7:42:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94ECA37B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:42:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id QAA07826; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:42:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14rL3r-0005EO-00 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:42:03 +0200 Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:42:03 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010422164203.H21216@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200104220910.f3M9A2p86919@freefall.freebsd.org> <010301c0cb1e$bb1be9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <010301c0cb1e$bb1be9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:24:01AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:24:01AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > No, I'm writing a FAQ _submission_ which is different than an entry. > This implies that whoever the FAQ maintainer is, that person is > free to completely munge my entry beyond all recognition, and I expect that. Well, I understand you, although as an FDP member (albeit a not very active one... I am working on debugging this:-) I would certainly appreciate submissions that require fewer work before commit and not a lot of "editing for clarity":-))))) but hey I am not the FAQ maintainer, soo... > You are, of course, also free to write as obnoxious and radical FAQ entry > as you want, from the completely opposite point of view. Then the FAQ > maintainer takes both entries and either can side with you, or with me, > or can try to find some compromise middle ground. OK. I am glad you did not take my mail as an affront because it was not meant to be one. I rarely reply to specific people in public and always fear that they might take it personally. My style is not to be obnoxious or radical (although the latter may show eventually but more in what I do than what I say.) Hey, I am even smiling in front of my monitor most of the time...:-) > Which I answered by a second followup adjusting the webpage that lists the > mailing lists. Yes, it looks better now. > I hear you, but understand that unless everyone on the Internet adopts > the principle that a person's right to reject any arbitrary mail message > on their mailserver for whatever reason is inviolate, then your opening > the door to the spammers who all want to pass laws that require that ISP's > accept spam that's "properly marked as spam" Heh. Yes, these are nifty people, they not only send you s**t they will even come back in person and lobby your Congresman. I know this and learned to, hmmm value their efforts. Luckily they are not as brazen here in Hungary but be assured if they were, I would be among the first to step up to stop them. Besides, they do not even bother to mark any of their mailings, or only very rarely. Also, many (most?) operate in such a way as to make law enforcement quite unlikely, since you need firm proof and usually all you find is a dialup whose owner seemingly doesn't know of anything, and this often in countries where cooperation is not an easy one to get. > I don't know if you know this but either the ORBS or the MAPS database has > already been sued by a spammer making exactly this argument - that they are > providing a service that users want and that MAPS or ORBS has no right to > interfere with mail transmission to a public mailserver. Yes I know about this and I hope they were not succesful. But I was not talking about this. A mailserver, even that of an ISP is not the same as a mailing list server. Why? Because the mail server takes over mail as that of its own, while a listserver only hands it out again. The fact that most ISP mail server do the same (eg via POP3) is immaterial, it is their function to deliver the mail to the recipients that they serve (they take mail on their own behalf) a list server, however, takes it on others' behalves. While this may sound very dense, it is this way legal distinctions are made. It is some governing principle and not the actual mode of operation that counts. Why is this important? Because otherwise, if you say that all mail servers are equal, then someone may well say that you, as a list admin or the admin of a maillist server, are responsible for the content that passes through your list. While in other case, you can defend that you are a mere conduit. Maybe I am just focused on different things than you are, but I would be more afraid of this possibility than of spam. And if you say this is not likely to happen I tell you that it is not very likely that spam will be legal any time soon in Hungary... so in theory I could sue all of them spammers. Of course it would be quite futile, but in theory. <...> > But, then the problem is "what defines a public mailserver that should > implement > these kinds of controls and what defines a public mailserver that > shouldn't be implementing these kinds of controls" Well, the answer is > "It's a > grey decision." Yes, see above for a possible solution, with a reasoning. Mere conduits should not in any way interfere with the contents, so they can very effectively protect themselves from liability. > The problem with that, is that legislation does not like grey - they want > everything > black and white. From the law's point of view, if any public mailserver > should > be required to accept all mail, then _every_ public mailserver should be > required > to accept all mail. The law in every country in this day and age does not > appear > to want to get into depth with technology - I don't know if this is because > legislators > are afraid of it, or don't understand it or what. I have no idea either, but I am working on changing that attitude in the circle that my voice is heard. Luckily, Hungary is still in the "I don't know anything about this thing, let's just leave it alone" stage as far as legislators are concerned. Also, being a small country and all, it is easy to gain reputation for real experts too, not just self-appointed ones. Let's hope we can use the remaining time to our advantage; after all if they see there are experts in the area doing the legwork, even decision-makers tend to say: OK let it be then, they have obviously thought it over... just remember the bikeshed vs power plant story. In Hungary luckily the Internet is still more of the "power plant" type thing. Now it just depends who the experts are that they listen to. This is where I hope to play some role... > Nevertheless, if the > attitude > DOESEN'T get spread that "I have my gun and I own > this house and I can do whatever the hell I want in it." in the case of > Internet mailservers, then we will eventually have legislated spam, which > would > be far more damaging than a few people that can't subscribe to a mailing > list. I understand your concern and hope that you will not be right in your fears:-) > Yes, I agree with this as well. I've been spamfighting a long, long time > and in fact several > years ago I wrote a series of articles that are up on the web that detail > how to do it. I've come to the understanding that there is only one sure > method of spamfighting that works, and thats content-filtering on the > mailserver. I kill far, far more spam by filtering > mail with words like "cum" or strings like "this is the best work at home" > or "this is not a pyramind scheme" or my favorite "This e-mail sent in > accordance", that > last one is good for a large amount of spam. Yes, I do this for my own account too... but there no problems with that, it only affects me. > But, I also recognize that to > some people the idea of content-filtering is political, and so they won't > content-filter, and so they take > whatever means are available to them to try and block spam. Yep, this is a tricky one as well. And another point where I feel very strongly about the "mere conduit" stuff. Just imagine, what if you start filter at the maillist server. They may say: OK, if you can do this then, say, you could just as well filter for Naci propaganda or child porn. Whereas if you don't do anything, you may effectively claim that it is not your job... it is not easy, perhaps impossible to make these requirements coexist, but maybe I have managed to make understood what I am concerned about... (if sometimes this mail seems really distracted, that's because in the meantime I am trying to do something totally unsupported: building a 4.3-RELEASE on a -CURRENT box. I can tell you that it's quite a job, but I am making very good progress:-) As usual, I was just wondering, not making ex catedra statements... > How can they discriminate between your server and some arbitrary student's > Win95 system? From the mailserver, both of you look exactly the same, you > both communicate via SMTP. OK, this is tricky. I admit this situation is not very common but pisses me off nevertheless:-) So. They basically say: No servers on any machine, please. They don't care if it's win or FreeBSD or what. Instead there are a couple of mail servers that you are supposed to use (that's what I am doing ATM) but with shell access. So in theory, no other machine would be allowed to use SMTP. They even have a firewall with a mail relay that blocks port 25 in both directions and only passes mail through itself in any direction, but only to/from the allowed hosts (mail servers) Quite effective anti-spam measure, of course, but I feel it very limiting at times... Yes, these work (and thanks for the offer) but I do not have bigger problems ATM other than not being able to use send-pr directly. Otherwise, using shell access is OK with me. I wonder however, when will the anti-spam organizations start filtering the free web-based emailers as well... after all, quite a lot of spam originates from the hotmail.com and the other big providers' domains. (Yes, I have already met a free web space provider that did not let me sign on with a hotmail.com address because they said it was unreliable!:-) (Although the real kicker was filtering the whole real.com domain because of the immense amount of spam they send out... bleh.) -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 8:16:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89CA137B423; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA60104; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:15:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:15:50 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Kris Kennaway , kris@FreeBSD.ORG, riccardo@torrini.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010422111550.A60064@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010422004331.A62382@xor.obsecurity.org> <00d801c0cb03$ee6f8400$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <00d801c0cb03$ee6f8400$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:12:11AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Use send-pr, and the "doc" category. I do this fairly frequently, and they're always pretty darn quick to answer. On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:12:11AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I sent the FAQ question to faq@freebsd.org some time ago. > Is this the wrong mailbox for new FAQ questions? > > I frankly don't blame the users for complaining about this > one - deviations from generally used practices should > always be documented, and (unfortunately) most mailing lists > on the Internet are still not in any sort of compliance > with good spamfiltering practices. While submitting a PR > is hardly the proper (or tactful) way to fix the documenting > on this problem, it's certainly a resourceful one, and the submitter > deserves more than to simply have his is PR closed with an > explanation in only the PR. > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Kris Kennaway > >Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 12:44 AM > >To: Ted Mittelstaedt > >Cc: kris@FreeBSD.ORG; riccardo@torrini.org; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home > >and from work > > > > > >On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 12:38:03AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> And, has this info been added to > >> http://www.freebsd.org/support.html#mailing-list > >> nope, I see that it has not. Kris, you didn't do a through > >> job of correcting this defect, please reopen it until the > >> web page has been corrected. You might also want to add this > >> to the FAQ too - I already sent it in for placement under > >> the miscellaneous questions, but it hasn't been added. > > > >Submit your patch as a followup if it's not already in the PR > >database..if it is, then this one is a duplicate anyway. > > > >Kris > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 14:22:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00FC737B422 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3MLMWk58370; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:22:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:22:30 -0700 Message-ID: <000201c0cb72$56b6ba60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010422164203.H21216@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam >talking about this. A mailserver, even that of an ISP is not the same as a >mailing list server. Why? Because the mail server takes over mail as that >of its own, while a listserver only hands it out again. The fact that most >ISP mail server do the same (eg via POP3) is immaterial, it is their >function to deliver the mail to the recipients that they serve (they take >mail on their own behalf) a list server, however, takes it on others' >behalves. While this may sound very dense, it is this way legal >distinctions are made. But this still doesen't have anything to do with whether or not the admin must accept mail. If I set a mailserver up with the express intent of relaying mail for free, then I still have the right to discriminate against anyone I want to - because it's _my_ mailserver, I'm paying for the network access for it, and I don't have a contractual relationship with any arbitrary person that transmits mail to me. It makes no difference if I say my server is "public" or not, by default when I put it on the Internet it's public. It is some governing principle and not the actual >mode of operation that counts. Why is this important? Because otherwise, if >you say that all mail servers are equal, then someone may well say that >you, as a list admin or the admin of a maillist server, are responsible for >the content that passes through your list. While in other case, you can >defend that you are a mere conduit. No, they can't because the people that are passing mail through your mailserver have not assigned you copyright rights - you do not own the material that is passing through your conduit. It's one thing if you announce that anyone sending mail through your listserver automatically assigns copyright to you - in that case when you redistribute the mail you become a publisher and thus responsible. An analogy is a public street. The public law officers have the right to deny any arbitrary person access to the street with any reasonable cause, but just because they have this right, if I get into a car crash on the street, it doesen't make the government responsible for paying the victim because the government has somehow become responsible for my driving. (because of it's power to deny me access to the street) > >Yes, see above for a possible solution, with a reasoning. Mere conduits >should not in any way interfere with the contents, so they can very >effectively protect themselves from liability. > Correct. But having the power to make a "decision at the door" to block someone does not confer the right to anyone else's contents that you have already let in. >Let's hope we can use the remaining time to our advantage; after all if >they see there are experts in the area doing the legwork, even >decision-makers tend to say: OK let it be then, they have obviously thought >it over... This is true until the general public gets involved. This is one of my biggest concerns with spam. It used to be that everyone on the Internet (espically people who had used e-mail for years before anyone ever thought up the idea of spam) were violently opposed to spammers and would complain to everyone if they got a piece of spam. Today, because the Internet has moved into the public realm, there's a lot of people that don't care if they get spam or not they just delete it. They have come to expect that spam is normal. In another generation we may, if things keep going, start seeing people that believe that spammers have a _right_ to send junk e-mail, just as regular companies have the right to send junk postal mail. Most of the professional spammers today have recognized that the first attempt to win spamming rights - claiming that their circuit contracts and such didn't give the backbone networks permission to shut them down - has been a total failure. The bankruptcy of AGIS sent the message loud and clear, and today all backbones will shut down spam factories when they find them. The next attempt in the battle, which we are seeing today, is typified by legislation such as US Congress HR 718, which is basically arguments over the legal definition of whether or not your allowed to filter spam or not. The spammers have figured that they cannot get legislation passed that bans filtering software, so they are settling for the next best thing - attempting to get legislation passed that says that if you _aren't_ implementing spam filtering then they have the right to spam you. Basically, if HR 718 gets passed by both houses and signed into law, then in effect under US law, if freebsd.org were to disable the reverse address check, then doing this would mean that spammers have the right to spam freebsd.org Pretty amazing, but this is the mentality of the people we are dealing with. >strongly about the "mere conduit" stuff. Just imagine, what if you start >filter at the maillist server. They may say: OK, if you can do this then, >say, you could just as well filter for Naci propaganda or child porn. But, if you accept that admins have the right to filter, you must also accept that they have the right to _not_ filter. Otherwise they really don't have the right to filter, and filtering becomes governmentally-mandated. So, as an admin I choose to filter spam and I choose to NOT filter child porn or Nazi propaganda. This is perfectly consistent. >Whereas if you don't do anything, you may effectively claim that it is not >your job... In effect - your claiming that you have the right to NOT filter if you choose. See above. >OK, this is tricky. I admit this situation is not very common but pisses me >off nevertheless:-) So. They basically say: No servers on any machine, >please. They don't care if it's win or FreeBSD or what. Instead there are a >couple of mail servers that you are supposed to use (that's what I am doing >ATM) but with shell access. So in theory, no other machine would be allowed >to use SMTP. So, like I was saying relay off a friendly mailserver on the Internet. >They even have a firewall with a mail relay that blocks port >25 in both directions and only passes mail through itself in any direction, >but only to/from the allowed hosts (mail servers) Quite effective anti-spam >measure, of course, but I feel it very limiting at times... > Then even if freebsd.org was open it still wouldn't help you because you couldn't send to it directly, because they won't let you relay and they won't let you transmit directly. >using shell access is OK with me. I wonder however, when will the >anti-spam organizations start filtering the free web-based emailers as >well... after all, quite a lot of spam originates from the hotmail.com and >the other big providers' domains. (Yes, I have already met a free web space >provider that did not let me sign on with a hotmail.com address because >they said it was unreliable!:-) I hope you informed hotmail of this, so that hotmail realizes that they are losing customers because of this. >(Although the real kicker was filtering the >whole real.com domain because of the immense amount of spam they send >out... bleh.) The anti spam organizations like ORBS and MAPS have very clear definitions of what they accept for their database and what they don't. In short, if your a professional spammer with a subnet, or your running an open relay, then your going to get blacklisted. But, they don't list people who take all precautions to deny spamming, but still get used by spammers with fake accounts. It ought to be said that when a spammer uses a hotmail account, it costs hotmail money to answer all the complaints and to close the account, plus it costs money for their network to handle complaint mails at all, even if they just delete them unread. They thus have a strong financial incentive to attack spammers. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 22 17: 2:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AE1237B423 for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B9D236ACBC; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:32:27 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:32:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: regarding your feb2001 daemon's advocate Message-ID: <20010423093227.K25914@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FYI. The article he refers to is at http://www.daemonnews.org/200102/dadvocate.html. The relevant part of the text is: Some time ago I reported on the computing environment at my daughter Yana's school (see the section ``No programming, please'' at the bottom of the article). In particular, I complained about the arbitrary rules they applied. Well, this year we got another form to sign (we had refused to sign the last one), and it was a lot better. They still talked about hacking utilities, but the nonsense like deep directories was gone, so we signed it. On the other hand, Yana has her own laptop (running FreeBSD, of course), and it has an Ethernet card. So one day when I had to go to her school anyway, I brought her laptop with me, and we went to the library to see if we could connect. We had the usual problem: find a live Ethernet jack. The obvious thing to do was to disconnect a running machine. Before doing so, I looked at the screen. That didn't look like Microsoft. In fact, it looked like an unconfigured X display with Netscape running. On a hunch, I pressed Ctrl-Alt-F1 and read: FreeBSD/i386 (dhcp1299.strathalbyn.edu.au) (ttyv0) login: I laughed so hard that Yana tells me I went bright red in the face. And of course we had no trouble connecting to the network. It was handy, though, to have the Netscape on the FreeBSD box to tell us how to set the proxy. What was that about the imminent demise of BSD? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Duncan Sayers ----- > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:06:05 +0930 (CST) > From: Duncan Sayers > To: grog@lemis.com > Subject: regarding your feb2001 daemon's advocate > > You will be pleased to know (if you aren't already aware) that the freebsd > network you referred to at the end of your article at Strathalbyn > school/community library is part of a larger network that spans the state > from Ceduna to Mt. Gambier, and most places in between. I was part of the > project that installed freebsd servers and public access clients to around > 80 regional libraries throughout the state. The servers have a 20MB flash > drive in them, from which the server can rebuilt itself should it detect a > problem with the hard drive that may have been caused by a dodgy power > outage (flakey rural power supply being one of the biggest problems that > had to be overcome). The public access clients are also running a minimal > freebsd setup, loading netscape from the server when they reboot. If the > setup on the clients get messed up, either accidentally, or deliberately > by the public, the librarians only need to reset the client and it will > refresh itself. > > At ADC (the company I work for), we use freebsd almost exclusively. Time > and time again, we are demonstrating how you can make freebsd jump through > hoops to acheive solutions that are simply impossible to do with the > surprisingly more popular alternatives. > > FreeBSD is alive and well in the state of South Australia. Nay-sayers be > damned! > > Regards > > Duncan Sayers ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 23 14:50:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-141-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6924D37B423 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3NLRgt60567; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:27:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:27:41 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Message-ID: <20010423222741.B60363@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200104220910.f3M9A2p86919@freefall.freebsd.org> <010301c0cb1e$bb1be9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <010301c0cb1e$bb1be9c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:24:01AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:24:01AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > No, I'm writing a FAQ _submission_ which is different than an entry. > This implies that whoever the FAQ maintainer is, that person is > free to completely munge my entry beyond all recognition, and I expect th= at. Submissions that can be read and cut-pasted into the FAQ will generally be acted on much faster than those that require extensive rewriting. To be honest, a PR that said "The FAQ really should warn people that any host they send mail from must have valid DNS entries" is just as useful and the current one. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjrknk0ACgkQk6gHZCw343VZQwCdE1WymrM1NI1yffDJeGPII18W v4MAn2vlFHUDx1iJtUzIE1bxfeMQJNus =dQyv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dTy3Mrz/UPE2dbVg-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 23 14:50:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-141-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8621937B422 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3NLG7J60473; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:16:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:16:06 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , David Johnson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MacOS Themes, was RE: Windriver, Slackware and FreeBSD Message-ID: <20010423221606.A60363@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010418091652.A27000@lpt.ens.fr> <006e01c0c7dd$fd2c1b80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010418102655.E27000@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010418102655.E27000@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:26:55AM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ Treading carefully, as I used to work for BSDi EMEA ] On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:26:55AM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Wind River's action about slackware is not very encouraging. =20 Not WR's actions. WR bought some of the software division at BSDi, and made job offers to most (if not all) of the BSD developers (whether BSD/OS or FreeBSD) that were employed by BSDi. Job offers were not made to the Slackware developers, they were retained by BSDi. It was BSDi that let them go, not WR. BSDi is refocussing as iXSystems, and concentrating on hardware, not software. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjrkm5YACgkQk6gHZCw343XhkwCfSJ7T9WiiaFDX61c2avPXAS0S pxwAnRBOPhozf1O5hVGnIQ/X2E+jw5c+ =GEe2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 23 16:11:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from salesforce.com (nat-63-150-46-90.salesforce.com [63.150.46.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0C637B61D for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:11:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongws (ggong-ws.internal.salesforce.com [10.0.15.25] (may be forged)) by salesforce.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3NNBDJ93697 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <017f01c0cc4a$b113b980$190f000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: Subject: interesting comment from Linus Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:11:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Have you guys seen this? http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-5530483.html?tag=mn_hd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 23 19: 5: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 986D937B42C for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11036; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:04:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAABwaqIv; Mon Apr 23 19:04:48 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA15111; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:04:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104240204.TAA15111@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: interesting comment from Linus To: ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu (Gilbert Gong) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:04:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <017f01c0cc4a$b113b980$190f000a@ggongws> from "Gilbert Gong" at Apr 23, 2001 04:11:12 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Have you guys seen this? > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-5530483.html?tag=mn_hd Yes. Check the archives from 16-17 days ago, right after it was first published. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 23 19:10:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from salesforce.com (nat-63-150-46-90.salesforce.com [63.150.46.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E91C37B424 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:10:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Received: from ggongws (ggong-ws.internal.salesforce.com [10.0.15.25] (may be forged)) by salesforce.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f3O2AcJ36699; Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:10:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu) Message-ID: <01f401c0cc63$c628dfd0$190f000a@ggongws> From: "Gilbert Gong" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <200104240204.TAA15111@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: interesting comment from Linus Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:10:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops, I'm sorry then, I looked in the web archives and couldn't find any mention of it.. Either I am blind or the web archives are broken.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Lambert" To: "Gilbert Gong" Cc: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:04 PM Subject: Re: interesting comment from Linus > > Have you guys seen this? > > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-5530483.html?tag=mn_hd > > Yes. Check the archives from 16-17 days ago, right after it > was first published. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 24 1:58:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED62937B440; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:58:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f3O8wHk63611; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:58:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Nik Clayton" Cc: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home and from work Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:58:17 -0700 Message-ID: <006601c0cc9c$b3f4c020$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010423222741.B60363@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Nik, The topic of freebsd.org being open for e-mail submissions is not a technical question and answer. It is a _political_ question and answer and is crying out for a SIMPLE policy statement to clear the air. But, I'm CERTAINLY NOT going to make policy for a machine that I don't even admin. The administrators of freebsd.org have not posted thing one as to their intentions, there's no way of knowing if they are even aware that the reverse DNS filter is on at all. If they had put this into the webpage IN THE FIRST PLACE then it would have not only made their intentions completely clear, but it would have also signaled that yes, they are even AWARE that there's a problem at all. I did the best that I could with what material I had at my disposal, which was _nothing_ other than a bunch of mailing list speculation, and the purely speculative assumption on my part that yes, the freebsd.org admins did know what they are doing when they installed the filter. But, there's absolutely no way of knowing if my speculative assumption is even correct, until it gets posted on the webpage, that is. For all I know the list admin wasn't even aware there was a problem and they are in the process of lifting the reverse DNS filter right this minute. Now, your criticizing my submission because I'm _expecting_ that it will be rewritten? This is absolutly rediculous. Maybe I'm missing it, but nowhere on any of the http://www.freebsd.org webpages that deal with the mailing lists is a word given that a "valid DNS entry" for hosts sending mail is a requirement for subscribing to the list. Until such time as someone acts on this PR by modifying the webpage/pages, there is absolutely no way to determine the intent of the listserver managers here. I certainly think it's reasonable to expect that they will have something to say about this too so how could I possibly write an entry that wouldn't be rewritten? Note that I DIDN'T SUBMIT THE PR and I don't know why your complaining to me about it's title. Your statement of: "To be honest, a PR that said "The FAQ really should warn people that any host they send mail from must have valid DNS entries" is fine with me. Now, can we please put this on the webpages dealing with the mailing lists so that: a) It's CLEARLY defined as policy and b) New subscribers know about this policy in advance and so if their mail gets bounced when they attempt to subscribe they aren't pissed about it and wasting bandwidth complaining about it Thanks! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Nik Clayton >Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:28 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Szilveszter Adam; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: misc/26744: Unable to send mail to FreeBSD.org from home >and from work > > >On Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:24:01AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> No, I'm writing a FAQ _submission_ which is different than an entry. >> This implies that whoever the FAQ maintainer is, that person is >> free to completely munge my entry beyond all recognition, and I >expect that. > >Submissions that can be read and cut-pasted into the FAQ will generally >be acted on much faster than those that require extensive rewriting. > >To be honest, a PR that said "The FAQ really should warn people that any >host they send mail from must have valid DNS entries" is just as useful >and the current one. > >N >-- >FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ >FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ > > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 24 9:31:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC2C37B422 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA25395; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:24:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAuSaOJX; Tue Apr 24 09:24:10 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06346; Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:40:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104241640.JAA06346@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: interesting comment from Linus To: ggong@cal.alumni.berkeley.edu (Gilbert Gong) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:40:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <01f401c0cc63$c628dfd0$190f000a@ggongws> from "Gilbert Gong" at Apr 23, 2001 07:10:38 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Oops, I'm sorry then, I looked in the web archives and couldn't find any > mention of it.. > Either I am blind or the web archives are broken.. http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-chat/20010408.freebsd-chat.html See subject "Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 25 8:24:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3307937B424 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f3PFPQf36191 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Slashdot discovers FreeBSD+Samba+ACLs Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://slashdot.org/bsd/01/04/25/1216254.shtml Comment #31 provides greatest entertainment value. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 25 8:59:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (bsdconspiracy.net [208.187.122.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F0037B423 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=469aad2442bcbfaf46e2079018e3d498) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14sRhM-00008q-00; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:59:24 -0600 Message-ID: <3AE6F45C.48B83FBF@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:59:24 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Gilbert Gong , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: interesting comment from Linus References: <200104241640.JAA06346@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Oops, I'm sorry then, I looked in the web archives and couldn't find any > > mention of it.. > > Either I am blind or the web archives are broken.. > > http://docs.freebsd.org/mail/archive/2001/freebsd-chat/20010408.freebsd-chat.html > > See subject "Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons". This was covered at least twice by daily.daemonnews.org, too. See: http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1778 http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1789 Daily is good place to stop by, to see what's happening in the BSD world. Please do try to keep up. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 26 11:15:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bishopston.net (catflap.bishopston.net [24.67.101.244]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E07AB37B422 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@bishopston.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by bishopston.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA37863 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:15:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:15:51 +0100 (BST) From: Jamie Jones Message-Id: <200104261815.TAA37863@bishopston.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Amazon.co.uk: "FreeBSD -> Platform: Linux" Reply-To: /tmp/t@bishopston.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anyone with better diction than me care to put them right on this ? http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/202-2595478-0642249 | FreeBSD 4.1 4CD | | Usually dispatched in 1-2 weeks | Platform: Linux | BSDi | CD-ROM | Our Price: £29.99 | | FreeBSD Handbook Book & CD | | Usually dispatched in 1-2 weeks | Platform: Linux | BSDi | CD-ROM | Our Price: £35.24 | | FreeBSD Power Pak 4.0 Book & CD | | Usually dispatched in 1-2 weeks | Platform: Linux | BSDi | CD-ROM Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 26 13:14: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A416337B423 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 54AB955407; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FC451610; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:07:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: Cc: Subject: Re: Amazon.co.uk: "FreeBSD -> Platform: Linux" In-Reply-To: <200104261815.TAA37863@bishopston.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-04-26, Jamie Jones scribbled: # Anyone with better diction than me care to put them right on this ? At least amazon.com (US) got the platform correct on those items :) -- Linh Pham [lplist@closedsrc.org] // 404b - Brain not found To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 27 4: 2:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-141-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2484737B422 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 04:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f3RARMp12259; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:27:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:27:22 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: /tmp/t@bishopston.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amazon.co.uk: "FreeBSD -> Platform: Linux" Message-ID: <20010427112722.A12072@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200104261815.TAA37863@bishopston.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104261815.TAA37863@bishopston.net>; from jamie@bishopston.net on Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:15:51PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 07:15:51PM +0100, Jamie Jones wrote: >=20 > Anyone with better diction than me care to put them right on this ? >=20 > http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/202-2595478-0642249 Done, to catalogue-typos@amazon.co.uk N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjrpSYkACgkQk6gHZCw343U6NACdFh0l7kdttE+xnLIJSWb7ZAMd n5gAoJUFv/+WeP+KnL7AT2XTzswke0bW =tuDT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --C7zPtVaVf+AK4Oqc-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 27 8:36: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from merchandisewholesale.com (ci392057-b.ruthfd1.tn.home.com [24.15.72.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 62F8D37B422 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cs@merchandisewholesale.com) From: "Merchandise WholeSale" To: Subject: Grand Opening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:30:21 -0700 Reply-To: "Merchandise WholeSale" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20010427153551.62F8D37B422@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG First off I would like to Thank You for taking time to read this letter. Second of all your e-mail address was pulled from an on-line source. This is the only & last message you'll receive from us, so you don't have to worry about an unsubscribe list or spam. Nor will we give your e-mail out to any one else. I'd like to stop, and tell you about a new ON-LINE Retail store. Merchandise Wholesale, a retail store that has over 2,000 products for home,travel,jewelry,personal needs etc... Please take time out when you have it to browse our ON-LINE directory at http://www.merchandisewholesale.com Click on any images of the item to enlarge. Our site is always under constant change for the better. Thanks for your precious time, HTTP://MERCHANDISEWHOLESALE.COM promotions@merchandisewholesale.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 27 11: 9:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from seed.pacific.net.sg (seed.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F30F37B42C for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jameslpin@pacific.net.sg) Received: from pop2.pacific.net.sg (pop2.pacific.net.sg [203.120.90.86]) by seed.pacific.net.sg with ESMTP id f3RI9BL06334 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:09:12 +0800 (SGT) Received: from evilfry (mcns28.docsis144.singa.pore.net [202.156.144.28]) by pop2.pacific.net.sg with SMTP id CAA20814 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:09:10 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <001e01c0cf45$6c3a7f80$1c909cca@evilfry> From: "James Lim" To: Subject: spam Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 02:11:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0CF88.79FBF070" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0CF88.79FBF070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another spam. What can be done to avoid this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merchandise WholeSale" To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 1:30 AM Subject: Grand Opening > > First off I would like to Thank You for taking time to read this > letter. Second of all your e-mail address was pulled from an on-line > source. This is the only & last message you'll receive from us, so you > don't have to worry about an unsubscribe list or spam. Nor will we = give > your e-mail out to any one else. I'd like to stop, and tell you about = a new > ON-LINE Retail store. Merchandise Wholesale, a retail store that has = over > 2,000 products for home,travel,jewelry,personal needs etc... Please = take > time out when you have it to browse our ON-LINE directory at > http://www.merchandisewholesale.com Click on any images of the item = to > enlarge. Our site is always under constant change for the better. > > Thanks for your precious time, HTTP://MERCHANDISEWHOLESALE.COM > > promotions@merchandisewholesale.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0CF88.79FBF070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Another spam. What can be done to avoid this.


----- = Original=20 Message -----
From: "Merchandise WholeSale" <cs@merchandisewholesale.com>
To:=20 <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG= >
Sent:=20 Saturday, April 28, 2001 1:30 AM
Subject: Grand=20 Opening


>
> First off I would like to Thank You for = taking=20 time to read this
> letter. Second of all your e-mail address was = pulled=20 from an on-line
> source. This is the only & last message = you'll=20 receive from us, so you
> don't have to worry about an unsubscribe = list or=20 spam. Nor will we give
> your e-mail out to any one else. I'd like = to=20 stop, and tell you about a
new
> ON-LINE Retail store. = Merchandise=20 Wholesale, a retail store that has over
> 2,000 products  for = home,travel,jewelry,personal needs etc... Please take
> time out = when you=20 have it to browse our ON-LINE directory at
> http://www.merchandisewholes= ale.com =20 Click on any images of the item to
> enlarge. Our site is always = under=20 constant change for the better.
>
> Thanks for your precious = time,=20 HTTP://MERCHANDISEWHOLESALE.COM<= /A>
>
>   =20 promotions@merchandis= ewholesale.com
>
>
>
>=20 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> = with=20 "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the=20 message
>
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C0CF88.79FBF070-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 27 11:14:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from cluck.stealthchickens.org (cluck.stealthchickens.org [209.192.217.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7698237B422 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mij@osdn.com) Received: from guinness.osdn.com (root@cluck.stealthchickens.org [209.192.217.153]) by cluck.stealthchickens.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f3RIEM410848; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:14:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mij@osdn.com) Received: by guinness.osdn.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CB450FE; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:14:21 -0400 From: Jim Mock To: James Lim Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spam Message-ID: <20010427141421.A2525@guinness.osdn.com> Reply-To: mij@osdn.com References: <001e01c0cf45$6c3a7f80$1c909cca@evilfry> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.17i In-Reply-To: <001e01c0cf45$6c3a7f80$1c909cca@evilfry>; from jameslpin@pacific.net.sg on Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:11:03AM +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 at 02:11:03 +0800, James Lim wrote: > Another spam. What can be done to avoid this. Learn how to use procmail and/or wait until the postmaster blocks it. - jim -- - jim mock - O|S|D|N - open source development network - - http://www.freebsdzine.org/ - jim@freebsdzine.org - jim@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 27 11:25:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailbox.univie.ac.at (mailbox.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8AD537B423 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from l.ertl@univie.ac.at) Received: from le.adsl.cc.univie.ac.at (le.adsl.cc.univie.ac.at [193.171.3.9]) by mailbox.univie.ac.at (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3RIPPs54438 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:25:25 +0200 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 20:25:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Lukas Ertl X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: <20010427141421.A2525@guinness.osdn.com> Message-ID: <20010427202532.E1723-100000@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Jim Mock wrote: > On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 at 02:11:03 +0800, James Lim wrote: > > Another spam. What can be done to avoid this. > > Learn how to use procmail and/or wait until the postmaster blocks it. Or maybe spamcop.net? regards, le --=20 Lukas Ertl eMail: l.ertl@univie.ac.at WWW-Redaktion Tel.: (+43 1) 4277-14073 Zentraler Informatikdienst (ZID) Fax.: (+43 1) 4277-9140 der Universit=E4t Wien To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message