From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 13:59: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (gibraltar.globalstar.com [207.88.248.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BF237B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@globalstar.com) Received: from globalstar.com ([207.88.153.184]) by nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GESA9G00.DOJ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:58:53 -0700 From: "Crist Clark" Organization: Globalstar LP X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of BSD presented. One interesting off-hand remark I saw, "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with Linux and eventually move on the BSD." The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. -- Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 14:16:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD37F37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07260; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:16:40 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010611171640.A7213@blackhelicopters.org> References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com>; from crist.clark@globalstar.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Interestingly enough, the office where I work has AIX, Solaris, Linux, and BSD, plus Win32. I require the UNIX administrators to be able to work on any of them. While they each have their own specialty, they have to be able to do basic configuration on any of them (with the aid of the run books, of course). My most junior admin thought he was hot stuff when he got Linux on his laptop. Two months later he reinstalled it with FreeBSD, because it was "so much easier than running Linux." I've seen this many times before. When I joined Verio, we went from Linux to BSD and (after the initial shock) the techs were pretty happy. If people try both, they generally choose FreeBSD. Kinda nifty, eh? :) On Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:58:53PM -0700, Crist Clark wrote: > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > BSD presented. > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > -- > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 14:22:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8237937B409; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA43DD; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:28:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25368F.7F442491@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:22:23 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Crist Clark wrote: > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). There shouldn't be much wondering about this. Linux is more popular than BSD. Someone new to Unix is naturally going to start with Linux. Everyone talks about it, you can find it easier on the store shelves, etc. Then once they learn the basics of Unix, some of them "progress" on to BSD. If BSD were more popular than Linux, then I suspect that you be seeing the reverse. Back when I started with freenix and PC unices, I had a Walnut Creek magazine. I saw the adverts for Slackware '96 and FreeBSD and 4.4BSD-Lite. At the time, the BSD's did not sound newbie friendly, particularly 4.4BSD-Lite, so I stayed away from them and tried Slackware. Hey, at least I didn't start with Redhat! David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 14:47:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D6B37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f5BLlBj55968; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:47:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:47:09 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. I myself started with "Work Group Solutions" and Slackware Linux distros, but a consultant was brought in at my company who installed 2.0.5 FreeBSD, threw everything but the kitchen sink on it (on a 486!), and then left it in my hands. I tossed the WGS and have never looked back. On our NM users group mailing list (NMLUG@swcp.com) our BSD users group got folded into the Linux group because the guy who had been holding the BSD candle discovered he had kids to be responsible for. The LUG group hardly budged to make room for us, but I note that most serious users and question answerers now are BSD folk. Some users try to keep a hand in both camps but they end up suffering because they never learn enough about either. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 19:25:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from reiters.org (reiters.org [64.40.73.246]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B4D37B40B; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from denny@reiters.org) Received: by reiters.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6202AD634; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:20 -0500 From: Dennis Reiter To: Don Wilde Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine Message-ID: <20010611212520.A48457@reiters.org> References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.2i In-Reply-To: <3B253C5D.C7850D9@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:47:09PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoting Don Wilde (Don@Silver-Lynx.com): > On our NM users group mailing list (NMLUG@swcp.com) our BSD users > group got folded into the Linux group because the guy who had been > holding the BSD candle discovered he had kids to be responsible for. The > LUG group hardly budged to make room for us, but I note that most > serious users and question answerers now are BSD folk. Some users try to > keep a hand in both camps but they end up suffering because they never > learn enough about either. Same here in Illinois. I helped start our LUG (http://www.lugga.org) even though I had always been a FreeBSD person. Almost two years later and nearly every person in the LUG has at least tried FreeBSD, if not transitioned to it from Linux. -- Denny Reiter | denny@reiters.org www.scapegoats.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 21: 7:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A59B37B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 51F5118D9; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492EC18D8; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:07:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every Count me on that list... :) But I also mostly dropped Linux because I couldn't ever get it to install.. mind you this was Kernel 0.99something. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 21:23: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4E037B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beholder@unios.dhs.org) Received: from unios.dhs.org ([207.61.217.66]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20010612042251.EXAV9224.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@unios.dhs.org>; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:22:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:19:09 -0400 From: Pat Wendorf X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. Crist Clark wrote: > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > BSD presented. > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > -- > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 21:30: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFBD37B405; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4067C11; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29DEB49A13; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 00:29:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Pat Wendorf Cc: Crist Clark , chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All these stories would make great articles for daemonnews. Anyone care to write their story up? Just send it to articles@daemonnews.org The more people you share the story with, the more likely they are to choose BSD. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org On Tue, 12 Jun 2001, Pat Wendorf wrote: > I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". > > I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware > (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years > ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup > for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of > all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with > it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for > any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). > > Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) > > I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, > which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). > It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over > 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of > today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development > team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet > somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. > > > Crist Clark wrote: > > > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > > BSD presented. > > > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > > -- > > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jun 11 23:20:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E930137B401; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A771F60198; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:32:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B25B5B1.55F78D7A@wiegand.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:24:49 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine References: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> <3B25983D.AB73280D@unios.dhs.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That's a big Me To here also. I found FBSD at the local compusa store a couple years back when I was just a year old in Mandrake Linux. I saw The Complete FreeBSD on the shelf, read the box, thought it looked interesting. After checking out a few web sites, bought it and have never gone back. I now have 3 FBSD boxes here at home, and even got my boss, a NT guy in a NT network, to let me set up a FBSD box to do my web site development on. Now it also runs php and sendmail for outbound autoresponses for our e-commerce site. Now I am trying to get some in-house mailing lists working. And my boss, the NT guy, is all for it, and has asked me set up a machine for him to use at home. I love this stuff. -- Chip Pat Wendorf wrote: > I really have nothing to add to this discussion other than a "Me too". > > I was a die hard Linux fan for many years, having started with Slackware > (when it was brand new), moving eventually to Debian. About two years > ago I was struggling with IPChains to get some internet sharing setup > for my home Lan, and a guy in a Linux help channel (Debian help chan of > all places!) told me to give FreeBSD a try. I installed it, messed with > it for a bit... and never looked back. FreeBSD is my first choice for > any server I have to setup and administrate (over 20 now :). > > Some random advocacy (good place to post I hope :) > > I administer and develop on a FreeBSD 4.1-STABLE server where I work, > which is the primary production database/web app server (PHP + MySQL). > It's a P3-667 Dell Optiplex GX110 with 256 megs of RAM, it handles over > 680 lan users simultaneously and has a whopping 220 days of uptime as of > today. That's over 5000 hours of continuos service. The development > team has done some truly, truly, stupid things while developing yet > somehow the OS never misses a beat, never crashes, never stops serving. > > Crist Clark wrote: > > > > I just got my hardcopy of May's Information Security Magazine and noticed > > an article on the *BSDs. The article can be found on the web at, > > > > http://www.infosecuritymag.com/articles/may01/features_os_security.shtml > > > > Nothing new there that people on these lists wouldn't already know... > > Though I'm sure some people may have comments about the "genealogy" of > > BSD presented. > > > > One interesting off-hand remark I saw, > > > > "Though BSD has been around much longer, Linux has been hogging the > > spotlight over the last few years. This isn't such a bad thing, as many > > computer professionals seeking an alterative to Windows start with > > Linux and eventually move on the BSD." > > > > The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural > > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every > > person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot > > and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. > > -- > > Crist J. Clark Network Security Engineer > > crist.clark@globalstar.com Globalstar, L.P. > > (408) 933-4387 FAX: (408) 933-4926 > > > > The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential, > > intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If > > the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient, or the employee > > or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are > > hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying > > of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > e-mail in error, please contact postmaster@globalstar.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 4: 9:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ko.com (gatekeeper5.ko.com [205.160.52.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48ACF37B401; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from elineberry@na.ko.com) Received: by ko.com; id HAA07662; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unknown(151.162.240.9) by gatekeeper5.ko.com via smap (V4.2) id xma007410; Tue, 12 Jun 01 07:08:26 -0400 Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Ed Lineberry" Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:08:13 -0400 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ATLG05/GTY/NA/TCCC(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 06/12/2001 07:08:26 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Me too. Actually, this slashdot article : http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/03/30/1649241.shtml convinced me to try FreeBSD. I bought an off the shelf package, had it running the next day (even X!) and haven't looked back since. - Ed > progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice > a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and > now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people > who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder > how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every Count me on that list... :) But I also mostly dropped Linux because I couldn't ever get it to install.. mind you this was Kernel 0.99something. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 4:23:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4BED37B401; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id ECD997565; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1C61D8E; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:23:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Crist Clark Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD Article in Information Security Magazine In-Reply-To: <3B25310D.2E6571B@globalstar.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 11 Jun 2001, Crist Clark wrote: :The author, Pete Loshin, makes is sound as if a *BSD is the natural :progression from using a Linux flavor. Thinking about it, I do notice :a lot of people on *BSD mail lists who say they used to use Linux and :now use a *BSD, but seldom hear the reverse (with the exception of people :who have to use Linux at work for some reason or another). I wonder :how much movement there is between the two camps... not that every :person necessarily has to be a card-carrying Linux- or *BSD-zealot :and not have some appreciation for a variety of projects/products. I chose FreeBSD over Linux simply because it was more like SunOS 4.1.x (which is what the Sun on my desk at work ran at the time). I really hated the question and answer script method of kernel building present in Linux, that was just totally alien. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 9:47:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web12308.mail.yahoo.com (web12308.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5AD6237B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:47:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wk633@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010612164749.38598.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.194.56.253] by web12308.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:47:49 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:47:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Wilson Subject: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Aritlce on ZDNet: Is BSD getting lost amid the open source salvos? Evan Leibovitch has some ideas as to why BSD is so quiet durring all of this. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2772296,00.html ===== : __o : -\<, : 0/ 0 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 10:29:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E5037B40E for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5CHTV625858 ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:29:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA29267 ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:30:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:30:22 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Rich Wilson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010612164749.38598.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010612164749.38598.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com>; from wk633@yahoo.com on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 09:47:49AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rich Wilson said on Jun 12, 2001 at 09:47:49: > Aritlce on ZDNet: Is BSD getting lost amid the open source salvos? > > Evan Leibovitch has some ideas as to why BSD is so quiet durring all of this. > > http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2772296,00.html Looks like he's been reading the FreeBSD mailing list archives (he links to a mail to this list by Ted Mittelstaedt...) and possibly sites like daily.daemonnews (where the original poster called the signatories of the Perens letter a "cadre of elitists" and a "clique of millionaires" [1], has the impression that the BSD people don't like the Linux people. Which is, obviously, not an unjustified impression. Though I have never understood this attitude. What's the point of fighting linux? It's not the real enemy (or any kind of enemy). Leibovitch asks why BSD people aren't speaking out. But as I mentioned in an earlier mail [2], BSD people hardly ever speak out about broad issues of "free software". It's left to people like Eric Raymond to talk about BSD while rebutting Mundie [3]. On the other hand, people routinely complain when BSD people aren't asked to co-sign such letters. I find it not at all surprising that the "free software community" doesn't have BSD uppermost in mind, since the BSD community itself likes to stay so aloof from the rest of the free software world. Also, I don't think BSD is immune from damage merely because Microsoft was training its guns on the GPL. If Microsoft does succeed in out-fudding Linux, and if the popularity of the BSDs continues to increase, the BSD systems will be the next target of the FUD machine, business-friendly license or not. ("First they came for the Jews...") - Rahul [1] http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1918 [2] http://docs.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=80178+0+archive/2001/freebsd-advocacy/20010527.freebsd-advocacy [3] http://lwn.net/2001/0607/a/esr-big-lie.php3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 11: 0:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE58837B408 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA48C5; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:06:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3B2658AD.4665E0F6@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:00:13 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again References: <20010612164749.38598.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Which is, obviously, not an unjustified impression. Though I have > never understood this attitude. What's the point of fighting linux? > It's not the real enemy (or any kind of enemy). Advocates of any OS always fight the advocates of any other OS. It's a law of nature. Go to the Linux advocacy sites and see what they say about BSD, or a Debian advocacy site to see what they say about Redhat. Heck, I've even seen anti-OpenBSD posts *here*. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 11: 9:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA6637B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:09:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5CI9L630845 ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:09:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA30927 ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:10:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 20:10:13 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Johnson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010612201013.L7519@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010612164749.38598.qmail@web12308.mail.yahoo.com> <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> <3B2658AD.4665E0F6@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B2658AD.4665E0F6@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 11:00:13AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson said on Jun 12, 2001 at 11:00:13: > > Which is, obviously, not an unjustified impression. Though I have > > never understood this attitude. What's the point of fighting linux? > > It's not the real enemy (or any kind of enemy). > > Advocates of any OS always fight the advocates of any other OS. It's a > law of nature. Go to the Linux advocacy sites and see what they say > about BSD, or a Debian advocacy site to see what they say about Redhat. True. However, the "public face" of linux right now is the big companies like Red Hat, and I haven't heard them criticise SuSE or Mandrake in public. So magazines like ZDNet don't carry anti-RedHat quotes from Debian users, and such statements don't tend to damage the linux community as a whole. FreeBSD doesn't have such a public face, so a journalist looking to find out about it will probably go to a search engine. The FreeBSD web page isn't very flashy, so he may dig through the mailing list archives, or do web searches for comparisons with linux. So the raw comments are the first thing he sees. Moreover, the anti-Red Hat comments by Debian users are criticisms of how RH bundles its system, not of the software itself (which is mostly the same) and not of the license (where Red Hat is almost as fastidious as Debian, though SuSE and Caldera aren't). The anti-linux statements in BSD lists/sites are much more broad-ranging and often philosophical rather than technical. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 11:36: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4181937B407 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26583 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123523.04476a30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:35:34 -0600 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The article at http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as someone who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jun 12 18:46:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB17637B401 for ; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:46:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010613014652.68532.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:46:52 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:46:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --- Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Which is, obviously, not an unjustified impression. Though I have > never understood this attitude. What's the point of fighting linux? > It's not the real enemy (or any kind of enemy). Fighting?... Fighting what? There is nothing to gfight. Linux is so kfgucked up. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3: 6:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC15637B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5DA5rl46484; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:05:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Rich Wilson" Cc: Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:05:50 -0700 Message-ID: <001f01c0f3f0$6c73c180$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Rahul >Siddharthan >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 10:30 AM >To: Rich Wilson >Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >Rich Wilson said on Jun 12, 2001 at 09:47:49: >> Aritlce on ZDNet: Is BSD getting lost amid the open source salvos? >> >> Evan Leibovitch has some ideas as to why BSD is so quiet durring >all of this. >> >> http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/main/0,10228,2772296,00.html > >Looks like he's been reading the FreeBSD mailing list archives (he >links to a mail to this list by Ted Mittelstaedt...) and possibly >sites like daily.daemonnews (where the original poster called the >signatories of the Perens letter a "cadre of elitists" and a "clique >of millionaires" [1], has the impression that the BSD people don't >like the Linux people. > >Which is, obviously, not an unjustified impression. Though I have >never understood this attitude. What's the point of fighting linux? >It's not the real enemy (or any kind of enemy). > No, it certainly isn't. But, I think that there's a few members of the Linux community that are inimical to FreeBSD. Self-preservation is a strong point for fighting these folks. >Leibovitch asks why BSD people aren't speaking out. But as I >mentioned in an earlier mail [2], BSD people hardly ever speak out about >broad issues of "free software". It's left to people like Eric >Raymond to talk about BSD while rebutting Mundie [3]. > Eric Raymond is the biggest dumb-shit to walk the face of the earth. Take a look at this quote out of his own lips, from your [3] URL: "...The GPL infects only derivative works of GPLed software -- you have to include part of the source code of a GPLed program in your program..." Notice something there HE USES THE VERB "INFECTS"!!! This is the same fool that in the same breath is bitching because Microsoft is equating the GPL to cancer. He's screaming about the Big Lie soaking into people's pores but he's not realizing that he's spewing exactly what Microsoft wants him to. He's the one describing GPL as a virus here!! Unbelievable!!! >On the other hand, people routinely complain when BSD people aren't >asked to co-sign such letters. I find it not at all surprising that >the "free software community" doesn't have BSD uppermost in mind, >since the BSD community itself likes to stay so aloof from the rest of >the free software world. > When you have people like Eric Raymond and Richard Stallman walking around spewing I guess it's no surprise. Bruce seems to at least have his head on straight as far as the communication process goes, while I disagree with what he says and does I at least respect him. But the other 2 are downright embarrassing. >Also, I don't think BSD is immune from damage merely because Microsoft >was training its guns on the GPL. If Microsoft does succeed in >out-fudding Linux, and if the popularity of the BSDs continues to >increase, the BSD systems will be the next target of the FUD machine, >business-friendly license or not. ("First they came for the Jews...") > Except that your a fool to shoot a gun that points backwards and Microsoft is no fool. If they start fudding BSD then your going to see the world start saying "Gee, why does this piece of Microsoft code still have "Copyright Regents of the University.... embedded in it" and "Gee, why is Microsoft selling MS Office for MacOS X which is a BSD-based OS" and a host of other things. You got to give Microsoft credit for some sense at least they aren't _that_ stupid. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >- Rahul > >[1] http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1918 > >[2] http://docs.FreeBSD.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=80178+0+archive/2001/freebsd-ad vocacy/20010527.freebsd-advocacy [3] http://lwn.net/2001/0607/a/esr-big-lie.php3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:12:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9633F37B40F for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5DACB624153 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:12:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA62839 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:13:02 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:13:02 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Rich Wilson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010613121302.I57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> <001f01c0f3f0$6c73c180$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001f01c0f3f0$6c73c180$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 03:05:50AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 03:05:50: > "...The GPL infects only derivative works of GPLed software -- you have to > include part of the source code of a GPLed program in your program..." > > Notice something there HE USES THE VERB "INFECTS"!!! > > This is the same fool that in the same breath is bitching because Microsoft > is equating the GPL to cancer. Well -- if we're nitpicking here, cancer is not infectious, so there's no contradiction... > wants him to. He's the one describing GPL as a virus here!! > Unbelievable!!! I agree, it's surprising he uses that word. But it's accurate, what he writes. > "Copyright Regents of the University.... embedded in it" and "Gee, why > is Microsoft selling MS Office for MacOS X which is a BSD-based OS" and They'll take aim at MacOS X too. It's a competitor. The only reason they give for not porting Office to linux is that there is no demand for it. - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:14: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD00737B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5DADll46523; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Brett Glass" , Subject: RE: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:13:47 -0700 Message-ID: <002001c0f3f1$888ec620$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123523.04476a30@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Brett Glass >Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:36 AM >To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Evan Leibovitch on BSD > > >The article at > >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/comment/0,5859,2772296,00.html > >subtly suggests that there must be something wrong with BSD's philosophy >or licensing because GPLed software (in particular, Linux, KDE, etc.) is >the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as >someone who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly >unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. > Do that. However, the fact is that Linux is more popular than FreeBSD. There's still a lot of people in the computer industry that only care about pure installed base numbers, and nothing anyone can say is going to affect their opinion of which is better. In their view, as long as FreeBSD is "behind" Linux in numbers, there IS something wrong with it. Arguing on that line of logic is basically validating their point of view that if the score wasn't important, then why is there a scoreboard? Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:17:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B6737B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5DAHL624856 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:17:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA63091 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:18:13 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Rich Wilson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010613121813.J57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010612193022.K7519@lpt.ens.fr> <001f01c0f3f0$6c73c180$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010613121302.I57154@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010613121302.I57154@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:13:02PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan said on Jun 13, 2001 at 12:13:02: > > "Copyright Regents of the University.... embedded in it" and "Gee, why > > is Microsoft selling MS Office for MacOS X which is a BSD-based OS" and > > They'll take aim at MacOS X too. It's a competitor. The only reason > they give for not porting Office to linux is that there is no demand > for it. Sorry, that was a bit incoherent. I mean, they'll sell Office for MacOS X because they want to sell Office to whoever will buy it, and they realistically know the Mac market isn't going to die anytime soon. But that doesn't mean they're abandoning their Windows Everywhere goal. It won't stop them spreading fud to future customers about Windows being professionally developed as opposed to MacOS X being based on stuff put together by a bunch of hackers... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:35:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A4B737B407 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5DAZbl46618; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Rich Wilson" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:35:36 -0700 Message-ID: <002701c0f3f4$95225980$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010613121813.J57154@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:18 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Rich Wilson; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >Rahul Siddharthan said on Jun 13, 2001 at 12:13:02: >> > "Copyright Regents of the University.... embedded in it" and "Gee, why >> > is Microsoft selling MS Office for MacOS X which is a BSD-based OS" and >> >> They'll take aim at MacOS X too. It's a competitor. The only reason >> they give for not porting Office to linux is that there is no demand >> for it. > >Sorry, that was a bit incoherent. I mean, they'll sell Office for >MacOS X because they want to sell Office to whoever will buy it, and >they realistically know the Mac market isn't going to die anytime >soon. But that doesn't mean they're abandoning their Windows >Everywhere goal. It won't stop them spreading fud to future customers >about Windows being professionally developed as opposed to MacOS X >being based on stuff put together by a bunch of hackers... > And probably step #1 in the "put yer money where yer mouth is" department is Microsoft divesting itself of their investment in Apple. When this happens I'll be ready to believe that they are aiming their fud cannons at Apple. Otherwise I find the possibility very dim. Even the major automakers in the world recognize that they aren't going to be able to cut into the market for something as ugly as a "new bug" so they are leaving Volkswagen alone on that one. Microsoft recognizes that no matter how good their crap is that there will always be a significant market of people that insist on being "different" that they will never be able to sell squat to, even if they paint themselves pink and jump up and down singing "BSD Rocks, BSD Rocks, BSD Rocks" Aiming at those people is just a good way to run your cannon dry when you have better things to do - like attempting to prove to the government that your not a monopoly. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:38: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4358737B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5DAc4627574 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:38:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA63740 ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:38:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:38:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Rich Wilson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Message-ID: <20010613123855.K57154@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010613121813.J57154@lpt.ens.fr> <002701c0f3f4$95225980$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <002701c0f3f4$95225980$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 03:35:36AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 03:35:36: > > Even the major automakers in the world recognize that they aren't > going to be able to cut into the market for something as ugly as a > "new bug" so they are leaving Volkswagen alone on that one. :) Is that a statement on MacOS X? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 3:56: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A8D37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5DAtgl46693; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Rich Wilson" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:55:40 -0700 Message-ID: <002801c0f3f7$627ced80$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010613121302.I57154@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Rahul >Siddharthan >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:13 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Rich Wilson; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 03:05:50: >> "...The GPL infects only derivative works of GPLed software -- >you have to >> include part of the source code of a GPLed program in your program..." >> >> Notice something there HE USES THE VERB "INFECTS"!!! >> >> This is the same fool that in the same breath is bitching >because Microsoft >> is equating the GPL to cancer. > >Well -- if we're nitpicking here, cancer is not infectious, so there's >no contradiction... > :-) Actually, I've had cancer before and let me warn you that the truth is that the medical community really doesen't know this as a fact. They don't believe that it is, but they also don't know enough about cancer to understand why people get all of the types of cancer that they get, and they wouldn't rule this out for every kind of cancer there is. The point is, though, that cancer is equated to being sick. Infection is also equated to being sick. Microsoft wants people to believe that those who use Open Source are sick, so Eric is reinforcing this with his writing. Not a smart thing to do there. >> wants him to. He's the one describing GPL as a virus here!! >> Unbelievable!!! > >I agree, it's surprising he uses that word. But it's accurate, what >he writes. > While he is accurate that Microsoft is waging a propaganda campaign, this is completely undercut by how he says it. Propaganda campaigns work indirectly, and if you read his _words_ then you will find the proof right there that Microsoft's campaign is working just fine. I understand the ideas that he's trying to get across but Eric is an amateur that's hopelessly over his head. He doesen't seem to understand that he's fighting a very organized PR machine that has a lot of clever people working for it and that stages just about every scrap of communication that goes out of the company. He needs to really plan out his responses to them and not make these kinds of first-year logical blunders that are obvious here. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 4: 5:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AF837B40A for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5DB5hl46738; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Rich Wilson" , Subject: RE: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 04:05:43 -0700 Message-ID: <002901c0f3f8$ca0d92a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010613123855.K57154@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:39 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Rich Wilson; advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Mundie, Perens, GPL, BSD etc again > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on Jun 13, 2001 at 03:35:36: >> >> Even the major automakers in the world recognize that they aren't >> going to be able to cut into the market for something as ugly as a >> "new bug" so they are leaving Volkswagen alone on that one. > >:) Is that a statement on MacOS X? > I have but one word for you to consider: colors! ;) Seriously, it's more of a statement that when the going gets different, the different get ugly, and the uglier the better. Have you been in any modern art galleries lately? People pay a lot of money for those dropcloths I mean paintings, the gallery owners have quite a profitable racket I mean business going there. Pretty smart I'd say, fleecing I mean selling to those that flaunt their 'individuality' While the Mac isn't as expensive as a car, or a ugly statue, there's echos of the same physological trickery going on there. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 9:43:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from madcap.apk.net (madcap.apk.net [207.54.158.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C206637B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) X-IP-Test: 207.54.133.91 Received: from kleenex (sgk@kleenex.apk.net [207.54.133.91]) by madcap.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5DGhJJ15943 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:43:18 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <197110000.992450598@kleenex> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123523.04476a30@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --On Tuesday, June 12, 2001 12:35:34 -0600 Brett Glass wrote: > the focus of more and more prominent startups. (Needless to say, as > someone who has a strong vested interest in Linux, he's not exactly > unbiased.) It's probably worth setting him straight in in the TalkBack. It probably isn't worth bothering with. Evan has his blinders on and only he knows the TRUTH that was handed down from on high. He's even more pigheaded than this Brett Glass guy that posts all over. :-) Then there's John Dyson. hehe (Sorry, I couldn't resist.) All very vocal. None likely to be swayed by discussion of the issue at hand. Evan wants to be the next Eric Raymond, so he doesn't even bother with things like logic that might stand in his way. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 10: 1:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pendragon.tacni.net (mail.tacni.net [216.178.136.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A89EF37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from needo@cerebro.superhero.org) Received: (qmail 30223 invoked by alias); 13 Jun 2001 17:01:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cerebro.superhero.org) (216.201.173.186) by ns2.sohos.net with SMTP; 13 Jun 2001 17:01:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 92159 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jun 2001 17:03:21 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:03:21 -0500 From: Erich Zigler To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: BSD User Group Tips Message-ID: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> Mail-Followup-To: Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Jacob: Hi Jacob! X-Shane: Hi Shane! Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I'm currently contemplating starting a BSD User's Group in my local area seeing how there is not one already. I was wondering what advice anyone had to offer in getting one off the ground. What problems did you run into, how did you handle certain things. Do you wish you did something differently? I would appreciate any advice anyone is able to give. -- Erich Zigler Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistant one. -- Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 10:49:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC4737B407 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA443E; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:55:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3B27A7AF.C5041142@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:49:35 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Zigler Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Erich Zigler wrote: > > Hello, > I'm currently contemplating starting a BSD User's Group in my local area > seeing how there is not one already. If you can find some old Linux Journal magazines, a few years ago there was an article about starting up a LUG. There shouldn't be any difference at all with starting up a BUG, except that the acronym for the Seattle Linux User's Group is more disgusting than the acronym for the BSD User's Group of Greater Yakima... David :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 10:58:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F338437B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from acc@xmission.com) Received: from [166.70.15.37] (helo=anthony.dsl.xmission.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1) id 15AEuN-0000gx-00; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:23 -0600 Received: (from acc@localhost) by anthony.dsl.xmission.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f5DHwPI47673; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anthony@xmission.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:25 -0600 From: "Anthony C. Chavez" To: David Johnson Cc: Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips Message-ID: <20010613115824.A47404@xmission.com> Mail-Followup-To: David Johnson , Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <3B27A7AF.C5041142@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B27A7AF.C5041142@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 10:49:35AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 10:49:35AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > Erich Zigler wrote: > > > > Hello, > > I'm currently contemplating starting a BSD User's Group in my local area > > seeing how there is not one already. > > If you can find some old Linux Journal magazines, a few years ago there > was an article about starting up a LUG. There shouldn't be any > difference at all with starting up a BUG, except that the acronym for > the Seattle Linux User's Group is more disgusting than the acronym for > the BSD User's Group of Greater Yakima... > > David :-) I have no advice to offer, because we're still trying to get our SIG off the ground, but I thought that I'd share our (horrendously cute) acronym: Salt Lake Linux User Group / BSD User Group ...SLLUG-BUG. :-) -- anthony@xmission.com http://anthonychavez.cjb.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Linux is for Microsoft haters. BSD is for Unix lovers. http://www.freebsd.org/ http://www.openbsd.org/ http://www.netbsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 11:14:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5352A37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA565D; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:20:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3B27AD69.8FFA000F@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:14:01 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anthony C. Chavez" Cc: Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <3B27A7AF.C5041142@acuson.com> <20010613115824.A47404@xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Anthony C. Chavez" wrote: > Salt Lake Linux User Group / BSD User Group > > ...SLLUG-BUG. Uugh! It scurries around on six legs but still leaves a snot trail! David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 11:20: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from q.closedsrc.org (ip233.gte15.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.244.233]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE2A37B405 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lplist@closedsrc.org) Received: by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix, from userid 1003) id 6076355407; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by q.closedsrc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D2651610; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:07:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Linh Pham To: David Johnson Cc: "Anthony C. Chavez" , Erich Zigler , Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips In-Reply-To: <3B27AD69.8FFA000F@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 2001-06-13, David Johnson scribbled: # > ...SLLUG-BUG. # # Uugh! It scurries around on six legs but still leaves a snot trail! Or a VW Beetle that is leaking oil and anti-freeze :) -- Linh Pham [lplist@closedsrc.org] // 404b - Brain not found To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 12:31:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7952E37B417 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a142.otenet.gr [212.205.215.142]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5DJVPM21763; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:31:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5DJChe70539; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:12:43 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:12:43 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Stuart Krivis Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Evan Leibovitch on BSD Message-ID: <20010613221243.C69527@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123523.04476a30@localhost> <197110000.992450598@kleenex> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <197110000.992450598@kleenex>; from ipswitch@apk.net on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:43:18PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 12:43:18PM -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote: > > Evan wants to be the next Eric Raymond, so he doesn't even bother > with things like logic that might stand in his way. :-) "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" ( sound of a sword slashing through the air ) Hahah! I could not, for the life of me, resist this. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 12:50:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752E337B40B for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11271; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:49:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010613134842.0455beb0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:49:32 -0600 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Evan Leibovitch on BSD In-Reply-To: <002001c0f3f1$888ec620$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010612123523.04476a30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:13 AM 6/13/2001, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >In their view, as long as FreeBSD is >"behind" Linux in numbers, there IS something wrong with it. That's circular reasoning. And it's worth pointing that out. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 12:57:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.dobox.com (mail.dobox.com [208.187.122.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C0D737B40E for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@dobox.com) Received: (qmail 17103 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2001 19:57:24 -0000 Received: from salty.dobox.com (HELO dobox.com) (10.0.1.33) by spinoff.dobox.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2001 19:57:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3B27C5AA.2DBD7A5B@dobox.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:57:30 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: DoBox Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; OpenBSD 2.7 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: ZDNN article of interest - maybe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Linked at http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2109 You can comment on the article at DDN without being muzzled^Wmoderated by ZDNet editors. -- Boats love me Sails fear me Wes Peters System Architect http://www.dobox.com/ DoBox Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 15:20:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77E2B37B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id A093915; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EEC949A13; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:20:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZDNN article of interest - maybe In-Reply-To: <3B27C5AA.2DBD7A5B@dobox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Wes Peters wrote: > Linked at http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2109 It was already posted, and subsequently got posted twice, we removed the duplicate and moved all the comments here, the original story. Linked at http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2102 Please use this link to post comments. > > You can comment on the article at DDN without being muzzled^Wmoderated > by ZDNet editors. Thanks. Chris Coleman Editor in Chief Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org Open Packages http://www.openpackages.org > > -- > Boats love me > Sails fear me > Wes Peters System Architect > http://www.dobox.com/ DoBox Inc. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 17:22:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pendragon.tacni.net (mail.tacni.net [216.178.136.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1FC237B401 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from needo@cerebro.superhero.org) Received: (qmail 49899 invoked by alias); 14 Jun 2001 00:22:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cerebro.superhero.org) (216.201.173.186) by ns2.sohos.net with SMTP; 14 Jun 2001 00:22:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 1473 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Jun 2001 00:24:27 -0000 Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:24:26 -0500 From: Erich Zigler To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: An interesting read... Message-ID: <20010613192426.B1035@superhero.org> Mail-Followup-To: Erich Zigler , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy. X-Jacob: Hi Jacob! X-Shane: Hi Shane! Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If anyone has a subscription to the magazine publication Sys Admin there is a very interesting article in this month's issue. The author compared Windows 2000, Solaris, Linux, and FreeBSD. I'm taking the results of said tests with a grain of salt. Considering that FreeBSD was the lowest in almost everything. Including network performance. They showed that Windows 2000 even beat FreeBSD in this arena. It's worth a read. -- Erich Zigler Sex, Drugs, and Rock 'n' Roll..... take the drugs out, leaves more time for the other two. -- Steven Tyler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 17:30:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A577B37B403 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chip@wiegand.org) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A863277D0100; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3B2806A8.10FE02CA@wiegand.org> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:34:49 -0700 From: Chip X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <3B27A7AF.C5041142@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > Erich Zigler wrote: > > > > Hello, > > I'm currently contemplating starting a BSD User's Group in my local area > > seeing how there is not one already. > > If you can find some old Linux Journal magazines, a few years ago there > was an article about starting up a LUG. There shouldn't be any > difference at all with starting up a BUG, except that the acronym for > the Seattle Linux User's Group is more disgusting than the acronym for > the BSD User's Group of Greater Yakima... > > David :-) Compared to that, SeaFUG ain't so bad after all. (The fug has talked a bit about changing the name, but it hasn't gone anywhere.) -- Chip (Proud member of the SeaFUG) :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jun 13 18:29: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230237B407 for ; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA55C4; Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:34:57 -0700 Message-ID: <3B28134D.4607540F@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:28:45 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erich Zigler Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting read... References: <20010613192426.B1035@superhero.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Erich Zigler wrote: > I'm taking the results of said tests with a grain of salt. Considering that > FreeBSD was the lowest in almost everything. Including network performance. > They showed that Windows 2000 even beat FreeBSD in this arena. It's worth a > read. I sure hope Microsoft paid the author in a timely manner... David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 0:28:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4558737B409 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:27:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id JAA24189; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:27:55 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15ARXl-0003nT-00 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:27:53 +0200 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:27:53 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting read... Message-ID: <20010614092753.A13828@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20010613192426.B1035@superhero.org> <3B28134D.4607540F@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B28134D.4607540F@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 06:28:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 06:28:45PM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > Erich Zigler wrote: > > > I'm taking the results of said tests with a grain of salt. Considering that > > FreeBSD was the lowest in almost everything. Including network performance. > > They showed that Windows 2000 even beat FreeBSD in this arena. It's worth a > > read. > > I sure hope Microsoft paid the author in a timely manner... The article is available online: http://www.sysadminmag.com/current/0107a/0107a.htm and, as was already discussed on the Hungarian FreeBSD users list, it mostly hits upon the usual suspects: - threading is not as efficient on FreeBSD as it is on some other OSs. We know this (esp in SMP situations). - File system performance lagging because of sync mounts and no softupdates (the authors tested with default installs) we know this too. - It supplies a rehash of the controversy of using separate processes in daemons to handle new tasks versus using threads and using blocking vs non blocking TCP/IP calls. The author clearly states his preference for asynchronous threads and non-blocking TCP/IP calls. (He is from the company that makes the Lyris mailing list server) - Author states that in his test (Using 4.2) he was unable to make FreeBSD serve more than 2500 connections simultaneously while testing email delivery to a test list. Contrary to expectations, w2k is not first on the list, Linux comes in as winner. But FreeBSD is indeed the last. I think that (while you can argue that his design choices may not be equally suitable for all network applications) the issues he raises are partly valid. We have known about them for a long time. 5.0, if it ever hits the streets:-) will hopefully correct some of these, provided that softupdates will reach the level of maturity that you can use them without worries on all file systems. The tests (as usual for lab tests) were not necessarily based on real-life situations (eg writing etc 10000 files in a directory) but they still give some hints, and this is all such benchmarks are good for. -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 7: 3:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062A837B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f5EE3iR02410; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:03:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B28C42D.3278A85A@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:03:25 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting read... References: <20010613192426.B1035@superhero.org> <3B28134D.4607540F@acuson.com> <20010614092753.A13828@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Szilveszter Adam wrote: > > The tests (as usual for lab tests) were not necessarily based on real-life > situations (eg writing etc 10000 files in a directory) but they still give > some hints, and this is all such benchmarks are good for. Once again, we are the victims of "out of the box testing." We must reinforce that FBSD OotB is designed for max stability and ruggedness, noty optimal performance. When you make speed tradeoffs, you lose stability. Not every IT department is smart enough to power their async-mounted net system with a Best Power Level 9... Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 10: 4:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sargon.photon.com (ritz.photon.com [216.141.160.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FC037B406 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@efs.org) Received: from sargon.photon.com (frep@sargon.photon.com [172.16.10.24]) by sargon.photon.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5EH53464298 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:05:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Wilbur X-Sender: matt@sargon.photon.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Cheezy "SysAdmin" magazine article Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, Sort of funny that this was the last issue I got before I let my subscription lapse.. Any comments on this article? http://www.samag.com/articles/2001/0107/0107a/0107a.htm They test Linux vs. FreeBSD vs. Solaris vs. Windows 2000, testing their ability to perform with large mail queues, using different means of handling them.. And they claim that overall, FreeBSD comes last. All OSs were run "out of the box" save some minor tweaks to allow lots of processes and filehandles and such. My first impression is well, duh, Linux ext2fs with async mounts (out of the box) probably IS faster than ffs without softupdates (also the case out of the box)... Any other comments? Regards, Matt Wilbur PRA, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 10: 6:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C72037B406 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15AaZG-0006QK-00; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:06:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:06:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Chip Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips In-Reply-To: <3B2806A8.10FE02CA@wiegand.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Chip wrote: > Compared to that, SeaFUG ain't so bad after all. (The fug has talked a bit > about changing the name, but it hasn't gone anywhere.) By the way, does SeaFUG have an actual website anymore? Where can I find out more about SeaFUG? Jeremy C. Reed p.s. I want to start or participate in a users group in Snohomish County, Washington. If anyone knows of a users group north of Seattle or south of Bellingham or is interested in starting one, please let me know (off-list). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 10:17:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C57137B401 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f5EHGtf29073; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:16:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:16:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Don Wilde Cc: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting read... In-Reply-To: <3B28C42D.3278A85A@Silver-Lynx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Don Wilde wrote: > Szilveszter Adam wrote: > > > > The tests (as usual for lab tests) were not necessarily based on real-life > > situations (eg writing etc 10000 files in a directory) but they still give > > some hints, and this is all such benchmarks are good for. > > Once again, we are the victims of "out of the box testing." We must > reinforce that FBSD OotB is designed for max stability and ruggedness, > noty optimal performance. When you make speed tradeoffs, you lose > stability. Not every IT department is smart enough to power their > async-mounted net system with a Best Power Level 9... One of the frequent responses to poor performance results on FreeBSD is "Why don't you turn on soft updates?". I think a fair answer to that is "Well, it wasn't on by default." What is our current argument against having soft updates on by default, with the exception of the root file system (and instability on -CURRENT)? When soft updates settles down again, I'd be tempted to have sysinstall simply turn on soft updates automatically for all non-root file systems unless the user toggles it off again. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 11:53:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sargon.photon.com (ritz.photon.com [216.141.160.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2680F37B409 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:53:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from matt@efs.org) Received: from sargon.photon.com (frep@sargon.photon.com [172.16.10.24]) by sargon.photon.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5EIsP470037 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Wilbur X-Sender: matt@sargon.photon.com To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cheezy "SysAdmin" magazine article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Argh, I should've poked through the archives before I posted, sorry about that. It sounds like I'm bringing up already-covered-stuff. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 12:20: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE38E37B40B; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b026.otenet.gr [195.167.121.154]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5EJJp608734; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:19:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5EJAX585641; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:10:33 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:10:33 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Robert Watson Cc: Don Wilde , Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An interesting read... Message-ID: <20010614221032.A85523@hades.hell.gr> References: <3B28C42D.3278A85A@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:16:55PM -0400 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:16:55PM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > One of the frequent responses to poor performance results on FreeBSD is > "Why don't you turn on soft updates?". I think a fair answer to that is > "Well, it wasn't on by default." What is our current argument against > having soft updates on by default, with the exception of the root file > system (and instability on -CURRENT)? I vaguely recall a discussion of this very same thing in one of the freebsd lists, and the most important argument against having softupdates enabled by default on all filesystems (or all, except root; small difference) was that this way we would be sacrifizing part of the reliability of a 'default installation'. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 13:48:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web12305.mail.yahoo.com (web12305.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E341537B405 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wk633@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010614204832.12703.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.194.56.253] by web12305.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:48:32 PDT Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:48:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Rich Wilson Subject: More media confusion To: advocacy@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2775033,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01 says: "Apple Computer's new proprietary Macintosh operating system uses FreeBSD." ===== : __o : -\<, : 0/ 0 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 15: 0:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47DF937B401 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:00:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010614220038.VVX1193.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010614175834.00cd9100@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:00:07 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: Re: More media confusion In-Reply-To: <20010614204832.12703.qmail@web12305.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, aside from that quotation, this is one of the more balanced articles I've read on this subject. It doesn't just state Microsoft's assertions blindly and notes that there are various shades among Open Source licenses. --Chip Morton At 04:48 PM 6/14/2001, you wrote: >http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2775033,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01 >says: "Apple Computer's new proprietary Macintosh operating system uses >FreeBSD." > > >===== >: __o >: -\<, >: 0/ 0 > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. >http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 15:19:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC97E37B403 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f5EMJUE14213; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:19:30 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:19:30 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Chip , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips Message-ID: <20010614151930.A13877@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3B2806A8.10FE02CA@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:06:02AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:06:02AM -0700, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Chip wrote: >=20 > > Compared to that, SeaFUG ain't so bad after all. (The fug has talked a = bit > > about changing the name, but it hasn't gone anywhere.) >=20 > By the way, does SeaFUG have an actual website anymore? > Where can I find out more about SeaFUG? Where then is one it will be at www.seabug.org. Unfortunatly, seafug.org exipired and some squatting bastard picked it up and started service porn from it. Apparently as a non-for-profit group we qualified for the low low extortion rate of $300 so the domain name change was required. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7KThxXY6L6fI4GtQRAns6AJ47jv+U7TmqzxT50BZoZI6joK9B8ACfdjLd 9qW3bfC3AmBqNrmvR2FL91E= =V60Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jun 14 23:43:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FF1137B403 for ; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5F6hhl52782; Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Erich Zigler" , Subject: RE: BSD User Group Tips Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:43:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'll throw out a few comments on this you may or may not agree with. For starters, you will get advice to use the tips that Linux User Groups have used to form a group. Maybe this will work for you but I'll reserve judgement untill I see it working. The nitty-gritty is that there's a significant paradigm difference between how the Linux community transfers knowledge and how the BSD community transfers knowledge. I say "transfers knowledge" because this really is the root reason why you form a user group to start with - so that newbies can get a helping hand. I'll illustrate the difference with these 180 degree opposite exaggerations: With the Linux OS, the entire point of the experience is dealing with Linux USERS. Linux is a sharing thing, it's not a solitary thing. Most Linux users view the Linux OS as a means to interconnect with other PEOPLE that share their views, the software itself is of secondary importance. With the BSD OS, the entire point of the experience is dealing with the BSD SOFTWARE. BSD is a solitary thing, it's not a sharing thing. Most BSD users view the BSD OS as a means to interconnect with different SOFTWARE that works the way they like, the people themselves are of secondary importance. Liken the Linux community as a gaggle of hens and BSD as a group of roosters. Or, a sexist explanation is BSD is a bunch of he-men saying "leave me alone I'll do it myself" and Linux is a bunch of women saying "Oh this doesen't work, Mary can you help me?" Now, of course the reality is a bit fuzzier, but this is closer to the truth than a lot of folks would want to admit. There's numerous examples, compare the number of Linux books and periodicals to the number of BSD books and periodicals, the number of people that FTP instead of purchase both OS's, and even the increased interest in changing the world (ie: activism) in Linux vs BSD. This comes out in user groups I think. There seems to be a lot fewer of them under BSD and the ones that exist seem not to have these giant meetings with hundreds and hundreds of people attending along with vendors and all the song and dance. People say "that's just numbers" but this is baloney - in the large cities there's plenty of BSD people so that if the BSD user groups were critical backbones they could draw big numbers too. With the BSD user group that I'm in, it's a lot more easy going, we don't have dues or any of that or even a web page. Meetings consist of low-key affairs in some convenient pub or in someone's backyard around the barbecue, and attendance is probably 20-30% if that. I think this suits the participants just fine and I don't think that any of them would care much for a highly structured group with dues and membership and a web page and regular meetings and all that rackafratz. The local mailing list (which I host) is more the regular meeting place then a physical meeting location. My caution is if you want to start a BSD user group, don't knock yourself out with the structure and planning of the group unless you get a flood of members that all want that. I think with the Linux user groups, most of the Linux users want the structure and someone telling them what to do. I've even seen this with people working on servers at the co-locate that is at the ISP that I work at, invariably the folks running BSD when they have a problem they research it themselves then when they figure out what's wrong they fix it and we never hear from them. The Linux people on the other hand come running and wanting us to tell them whats wrong with the least little thing, and I can't tell you how many times I've asked people with Red Hat servers "Have you looked on Red Hat's website and seen if this is mentioned" and gotten blank stares, then I spend 5 minutes digging up the fix off the Linux sites and they think I'm some kind of god. And I don't even run it on any of our servers!!!! Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Erich Zigler >Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:03 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: BSD User Group Tips > > >Hello, > I'm currently contemplating starting a BSD User's Group in my local area >seeing how there is not one already. > > I was wondering what advice anyone had to offer in getting one off the >ground. What problems did you run into, how did you handle certain things. >Do you wish you did something differently? > > I would appreciate any advice anyone is able to give. > >-- >Erich Zigler > >Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistant one. -- >Albert Einstein > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 0:49:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B195D37B406 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:49:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5F7nLl52904; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: An interesting read... Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c0f56f$af7f3ba0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010614092753.A13828@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam >Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 12:28 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: An interesting read... > > >The article is available online: > >http://www.sysadminmag.com/current/0107a/0107a.htm > >and, as was already discussed on the Hungarian FreeBSD users list, it >mostly hits upon the usual suspects: > >- threading is not as efficient on FreeBSD as it is on some other OSs. We > know this (esp in SMP situations). >- File system performance lagging because of sync mounts and no softupdates > (the authors tested with default installs) we know this too. >- It supplies a rehash of the controversy of using separate processes in > daemons to handle new tasks versus using threads and using blocking vs > non blocking TCP/IP calls. The author clearly states his preference for > asynchronous threads and non-blocking TCP/IP calls. (He is from the > company that makes the Lyris mailing list server) >- Author states that in his test (Using 4.2) he was unable to make FreeBSD > serve more than 2500 connections simultaneously while testing email > delivery to a test list. > >Contrary to expectations, w2k is not first on the list, Linux comes in as >winner. But FreeBSD is indeed the last. I think that (while you can argue >that his design choices may not be equally suitable for all network >applications) the issues he raises are partly valid. We have known about >them for a long time. 5.0, if it ever hits the streets:-) will hopefully >correct some of these, provided that softupdates will reach the level of >maturity that you can use them without worries on all file systems. > >The tests (as usual for lab tests) were not necessarily based on real-life >situations (eg writing etc 10000 files in a directory) but they still give >some hints, and this is all such benchmarks are good for. > Benchmarks that don't attempt to mimic real-life situations are not generally useful to consumers. Sure, they give hints as to where the weak areas are that need work, but the fact of the matter is that all operating systems have weak areas that show up when they are pushed to their limits. I don't have a problem with such articles in scientific research journals but SysAdmin magazine is not a scientific research journal. It is a popular trade press magazine aimed at the average system administrator of an average network. The article should have been written with a discussion of factors that is important to this audience, not with a discussion of factors that are important to mailing listserver administrators. (of which there are not many since most people use ISP-hosted mailing lists or one of the free servers intended for low-volume listserving) It would have probably been more useful to the audience if the author had included a sidebar that discussed what happened to each of the servers when their power switches were turned off right in the middle of writing out those 1000 files. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 1: 2:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BF237B403 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id KAA17106; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:02:36 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15AoYt-0004RT-00 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:02:35 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:02:35 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An interesting read... Message-ID: <20010615100235.D1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010614092753.A13828@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> <001501c0f56f$af7f3ba0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001501c0f56f$af7f3ba0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:49:20AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:49:20AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Benchmarks that don't attempt to mimic real-life situations are not > generally > useful to consumers. Sure, they give hints as to where the weak areas are > that need work, but the fact of the matter is that all operating systems > have weak areas that show up when they are pushed to their limits. <...> I could not agree any more except that the guy was more examining things from a list server *programmer's* perspective (after all that's what he does) than an admin's perspective. I was unhappy about this test for the very reasons you cited. P.S.: I am just waiting when the first review will come out that says: "FreeBSD was a whole lot slower on my PC than RedHat so it must be crap" because since 4.3-RELEASE the write cache of IDE disks has been disabled by default (and softupdates is off too) -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 1:28: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from johnson.mail.mindspring.net (johnson.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3226037B403 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.115.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.115]) by johnson.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA26339; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B29C722.5979824B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:28:18 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Wilbur Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheezy "SysAdmin" magazine article References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt Wilbur wrote: > > Hello, > > Sort of funny that this was the last issue I got before > I let my subscription lapse.. Any comments on this article? > > http://www.samag.com/articles/2001/0107/0107a/0107a.htm > > They test Linux vs. FreeBSD vs. Solaris vs. Windows 2000, > testing their ability to perform with large mail queues, > using different means of handling them.. And they claim > that overall, FreeBSD comes last. All OSs were run "out > of the box" save some minor tweaks to allow lots of > processes and filehandles and such. My first impression > is well, duh, Linux ext2fs with async mounts (out of the > box) probably IS faster than ffs without softupdates > (also the case out of the box)... Any other comments? The article is meaningless. Too bad they titled it "Which OS is Fastest for High- Performance Network Applications?" instead of "Which OS is Fastest for MailEngine?". The only implied caveat is the statement "Our customers frequently ask us which operating system is best for running our software" in paragraph 3 of the "Background" section. This should have been in bold type in the first paragraph. -- It makes a number of very large blunders, which are really inexcusable, given that it tries to represent itself as a fair and unbiased comparison. These blunders are in the tuning of FreeBSD, the best architecture for FreeBSD applications (one shich they did not even try to consider), in their choice of which items they could micro-benchmark would really be indicative of real-world performance, and, finally, in their experimental methodology. Here is a short list, off the top of my head: 1) The mail server they were using doesn't come with any of these systems "out of the box". 2) Threaded processes are vastly inferior to finite state automatons, when it comes to CPU utilization on single CPU systems, and even on multiple CPU systems, if there is async I/O that can be scheduled on multiple CPUs. 3) FreeBSD turns of write caching on IDE drives, by default, in FreeBSD 4.3 and above; you can set it to be like Linux, Solaris, and Windows, if you don't care about your data. On FreeBSD 4.2 and below, Soft Updates are not enabled by default. Either way, without tuning, you lose. 4) IDE drives do not support tagged command queueing, except IBM DTLA drives, which are known to fail due to overheating and due to their electronics being too slow for their radial track density for interior tracks. 5) Real servers with storage and I/O requirements use SCSI drives so they can benefit from tagged command queues, which allow I/O to be interleaved instead of serialized. 6) No well designed mail server keeps all queue files in the same directory, unless it has been designed to run on a particular system where that is not a problem; this is a design portability issue, not a performance issue. 7) Sendmail can handle 400,000 8k emails in a 24 hour period on a < 500MHz box, if it is properly set up and queue dispersal is optimally configured (e.g. with the patches from ftp://ftp.whistle.com/ ). 8) "The most efficient asynchornous architecture" for an application is OS-dependent. 9) There are more than 3 ways to skin a cat, or to architect a task. 10) Sending an RSET instead of data measures only the connection setup and teardown speeds, and does not measure real throughput, and is not representative of real world behaviour, in which mail messages, when sent, contain data, and not just trivial addressing information. 11) Mail servers which support the ESMTP PIPELINE ability have significantly higher throughput, even when just doing addressing. 12) You can not "tweak" FreeBSD's network connection limits at run time; socket structurse, inpcb's, and tcpcb's are allocated via a zone allocator, prior to the system actually being started. This zone can not be resized. Without the patch I posted to make maxfiles boot-time tunable, FreeBSD can not increase the number of sockets and files that it can simultaneously handle, without a kernel recompile. Thus the "tweaking" used was useless. 13) For each connection, there is a tcptmpl structure, which is used for keepalives. This structure will consume one mbuf per connection; in addition, the average TCP window size will be 16k; so you will need 16k/2k (8) mbufs for custer pointers plus 16k/256 (64) mbufs for the window data, plus one mbuf per connection, pplus one mbuf per connection, if you are setting options. This means that you will potentially need 74 mbufs per connection you intend to support; without patching, this also is not tunable except at compile time, and the value was not tuned. 14) The "average througput per network architecture" is extremely misleading, both because of the limited and inefficient architectures used in the test, and in using an average to "determine" which was "the best architecture for use on all OSs". Per OS numbers would have been much more meaningful, since the final architecture was chosen based on the average, and not based on what was best for the OS being tested. 15) Creation and deletion of large numbers of files in a single directory is rather meaningless; witness the moronic 'postmark' "benchmark", and the resulting discussion on several FreeBSD lists. The "benchmark" was clearly designed to put forth a political agenda (in the context of the list discussion, this agenda was the pro-ReiserFS position, despite Reiser's use of several USL/Novell patents on Delayed Ordered Writes, without the permission of the patent holders, which render a pro-ResierFS argument as meaningless as arguing about the number of angels which can dance on the head of a pin). 16) When you have an answer you want, all the evidence you gather will tend to support the conclusion you have already drawn, unless you are very, very careful to eliminate your assumed biases in your experimental design. This is very hard to do, even when trained scientists are involved. Feel free to pass this on to the magazine editors, the author, or both; at the very least, it may teach them a little bit about how to actually tune FreeBSD to get good numbers out of it, instead of frobbing meaningless knobs and merely _believing_ they are tuning the system for higher performance. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 1:47: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA9637B407 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5F8kx618767 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:46:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA62164 ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:47:53 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:47:53 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Matt Wilbur , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheezy "SysAdmin" magazine article Message-ID: <20010615104753.A61673@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , Matt Wilbur , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3B29C722.5979824B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B29C722.5979824B@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:28:18AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said on Jun 15, 2001 at 01:28:18: > 15) Creation and deletion of large numbers of files in a > single directory is rather meaningless; witness the > moronic 'postmark' "benchmark", and the resulting > discussion on several FreeBSD lists. The "benchmark" > was clearly designed to put forth a political agenda > (in the context of the list discussion, this agenda > was the pro-ReiserFS position, despite Reiser's use > of several USL/Novell patents on Delayed Ordered > Writes, without the permission of the patent holders, > which render a pro-ResierFS argument as meaningless > as arguing about the number of angels which can dance > on the head of a pin). There was a thread on patented algorithms in FreeBSD on -hackers some days ago. For Jordan's opinion on that, see http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=346010+0+current/freebsd-hackers - R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 1:53:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (sol.serv.u-szeged.hu [160.114.51.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A63D37B409 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 01:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.serv.u-szeged.hu (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22709; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:07 +0200 (MEST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15ApLm-0004p3-00 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:06 +0200 Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:53:06 +0200 From: Szilveszter Adam To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips Message-ID: <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Mail-Followup-To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, On Thu, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:42PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > I'll throw out a few comments on this you may or may not agree with. <...> > I've even seen this with people working on servers at the co-locate that > is at the ISP that I work at, invariably the folks running BSD when they > have a problem they research it themselves then when they figure out what's > wrong they fix it and we never hear from them. The Linux people on the > other hand come running and wanting us to tell them whats wrong with the > least > little thing, and I can't tell you how many times I've asked people with > Red Hat servers "Have you looked on Red Hat's website and seen if this is > mentioned" and gotten blank stares, then I spend 5 minutes digging up the > fix off the Linux sites and they think I'm some kind of god. And I don't > even run it on any of our servers!!!! I think that you very much got a point here... but this is a two-sided fact: While it is undoubtedly a good thing that BSD admins are knowledgeable and don't require others to spoon-feed them, this "research for yourself and get over it" attitude also prevents IMHO that quality docs get written by those who really understand the issues... and this is not necessarily good. While on Linux every little achievement one makes is cause to write up a HOWTO (albeit in very varying styles and degree of professionalism, sometimes you have the feeling that the guy did not actually understand why he was doing things but merely writes: This is what worked for me, if it does for you great), in BSD land we stick to quality. This is good because when docs actually get written, they are high quality. But there are not many people who could do this for most BSD topics. This in turn means that when you try to "research" for yourself next time, you are often left with "common knowledge" on mailing lists, that are often not even written down anywhere save for some random mail message... not exactly productive. In my opinion, two things need to be done here: - Instead of expecting (as it is tacitly today) that "the guys at the Doc Project" know every topic and write all the good docs by themselves, everybody should write docs (and not just man pages although that is a must) for the areas he/she is knowledgeable in. - Instead of maintaining a sctrict divine between those "in" the project and those "out", we should encourage (as opposed to merely tolerate) new talent who work outside of the official channels (say on various support web sites) so that we have a more steady supply of new contributors, esp because the "old hands" tend to be soaked up in (undoubtedly important) technical discussions instead of writing. Would like to note also that while it may be not the most important for BSD user groups to enjoy big gatherings, the community aspect is very much alive: the mailing list traffic, the very existence of freebsd-chat@ all prove this point. It is not unusual for people with a hobby to pursue it for both the object of it (eg software) and for socializing. Taking out the community aspect would leave little of the FreeBSD project as we know it today. It is interesting to observe the newly-forming xMach project in this respect: although they have only started recently, they already have an explicit community web site. Reading through the threads recently about why the BSD's public profile isn't as high as it could be, I think that this "splendid isolation" may be a reason not only because nobody is going to know what you have unless you tell it and show it, but also because many perceive this exclusive behaviour as elitist and condescending along the lines of: We are the best and we know it but for most of you guys we are just too good. So, instead of trying to define the BSD way by fighting others and expanding on differences of opinion, we should focus on bringing what we have out to the world. Not keeping it for ourselves in dark rooms in lone hacking nights and expecting that people find it and somehow get it from us and if they fail to find us denouncing them in talkback columns as clueless if they prefer to write about what's out there. We need stories that involve BSD, success stories, technical papers, executive reports, and we have to give the feeling to people who happen to check in that "yes you are important" and "yes, we will look into that" (and then do as promised). Even stories like "We used FreeBSD yesterday night at a party to serve the music and it kept ticking the whole night without missing a beat" count since people may ask what the hell that BSD thing is. IMHO, this is the way that would be in-keeping with the BSD way (focus on the important stuff). -- Regards: Szilveszter ADAM Szeged University Szeged Hungary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 2:17:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A9737B401 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.138.115.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.138.115]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA12792; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B29D2B0.7B48A2BF@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 02:17:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Matt Wilbur , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cheezy "SysAdmin" magazine article References: <3B29C722.5979824B@mindspring.com> <20010615104753.A61673@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Terry Lambert said on Jun 15, 2001 at 01:28:18: > > 15) Creation and deletion of large numbers of files in a > > single directory is rather meaningless; witness the > > moronic 'postmark' "benchmark", and the resulting > > discussion on several FreeBSD lists. The "benchmark" > > was clearly designed to put forth a political agenda > > (in the context of the list discussion, this agenda > > was the pro-ReiserFS position, despite Reiser's use > > of several USL/Novell patents on Delayed Ordered > > Writes, without the permission of the patent holders, > > which render a pro-ResierFS argument as meaningless > > as arguing about the number of angels which can dance > > on the head of a pin). > > There was a thread on patented algorithms in FreeBSD on -hackers > some days ago. For Jordan's opinion on that, see > > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=346010+0+current/freebsd-hackers Jordan is wrong. AT&T/USL has been known to sue before. USL has defended these particular patents successfully twice already. The "patented algorithm" thread in FreeBSD is based on an indefensible patent: prior art dating to 1990 was demostrated, making the patent invalid, if challenged in court. Jordan is also wrong about the number of patent infringements in FreeBSD. According to a six month due-dilligence by IBM, there are no infringements in the FreeBSD kernel, and the FreeBSD user space is (relatively) clean as well. This did not include IBM patents, however, since they were unconcerned about licensing them from themselves, so there may be some lurking there. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 3:11:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B24EF37B403 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5FA9bl53696; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:09:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: An interesting read... Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:09:37 -0700 Message-ID: <004f01c0f583$48b7cd60$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010615100235.D1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam >Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:03 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: An interesting read... > > >P.S.: I am just waiting when the first review will come out that says: >"FreeBSD was a whole lot slower on my PC than RedHat so it must be crap" >because since 4.3-RELEASE the write cache of IDE disks has been disabled by >default (and softupdates is off too) > If they are using IDE then they aren't interested in performance to start with. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 3:51:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AC737B406 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from clan.nothing-going-on.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f5FATr842890; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:29:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nik Clayton To: Szilveszter Adam , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:29:53 +0100 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <20010613120321.A92103@superhero.org> <000901c0f566$845e0f40$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> In-Reply-To: <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106151129530X.37769@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 15 June 2001 9:53 am, Szilveszter Adam wrote: > - Instead of expecting (as it is tacitly today) that "the guys at the Doc > Project" know every topic and write all the good docs by themselves, > everybody should write docs (and not just man pages although that is a > must) for the areas he/she is knowledgeable in. Most definitely -- even a "Here is how I did it, it might not work for you" document is a great start, because it provides something that can be incrementally improved. N - -- Internet connection, $19.95 a month. Computer, $799.95. Modem, $149.95. Telephone line, $24.95 a month. Software, free. USENET transmission, hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Thinking before posting, priceless. Somethings in life you can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard. -- Graham Reed, in the Scary Devil Monastery -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjsp46EACgkQk6gHZCw343X84ACeOqfRWJg2jC9TkxRay2oZZMH3 CggAnRSCrk0Z5xt1r/SuGFR3msYKJc3Y =QecW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jun 15 3:53:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E79A937B407 for ; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5FAril53780; Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Szilveszter Adam" , Subject: RE: BSD User Group Tips Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <007301c0f589$71a5f480$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010615105306.E1744@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Szilveszter Adam >Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:53 AM >To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD User Group Tips > > >Hello, > > >I think that you very much got a point here... but this is a two-sided >fact: While it is undoubtedly a good thing that BSD admins are >knowledgeable and don't require others to spoon-feed them, this "research >for yourself and get over it" attitude also prevents IMHO that quality docs >get written by those who really understand the issues... and this is not >necessarily good. :-) Now we are jumping from user groups to docs? >While on Linux every little achievement one makes is >cause to write up a HOWTO (albeit in very varying styles and degree of >professionalism, sometimes you have the feeling that the guy did not >actually understand why he was doing things but merely writes: This is what >worked for me, if it does for you great), in BSD land we stick to quality. >This is good because when docs actually get written, they are high quality. >But there are not many people who could do this for most BSD topics. This >in turn means that when you try to "research" for yourself next time, you >are often left with "common knowledge" on mailing lists, that are often not >even written down anywhere save for some random mail message... not exactly >productive. > But, then there's the wealth of Linux docs that you can use too since often the same things apply. >In my opinion, two things need to be done here: > >- Instead of expecting (as it is tacitly today) that "the guys at the Doc > Project" know every topic and write all the good docs by themselves, > everybody should write docs (and not just man pages although that is a > must) for the areas he/she is knowledgeable in. > >- Instead of maintaining a sctrict divine between those "in" the project > and those "out", we should encourage (as opposed to merely tolerate) > new talent who work outside of the official channels (say on various > support web sites) so that we have a more steady supply of new > contributors, esp because the "old hands" tend to be soaked up in > (undoubtedly important) technical discussions instead of writing. > Nobody that's read much of my stuff would think that I'm a proponent of putting all docs on the "official" website or support channels. But, let me say one thing - there are a great many people that run out there and put docs up on websites, then they have very little commitment to keeping them available. I can't count the number of times I've seen references to some interesting project someone was experimenting with under FreeBSD to a URL like http://someisp.com/~someuser only to go there and find the user has decided to move from that ISP and go elsewhere, and their research is now lost because the old URL has choked the caches of all search engines on the Internet. Search engines rarely seem to remove bad links anymore. I have come to believe now that those wanting to write docs and howtos and such should NEVER be encouraged to publish them on their own websites unless they register an honest-to-God domain name and commit to maintaining it for a minimal period of at least 5 years from date of last modification, preferable 10 years, unless they make provisions to transfer the domain to another FreeBSD support site or to the offical site. In my opinion it's irresponsible to the extreme to create a support website and get people using it then fold it without warning and without transferring the documentation on it elsewhere, with a forward to that place. It's also very irresponsible to build these "lists of links" then let them go stale and half of them not work anymore. That also stuffs up search engines and makes finding information much more difficult. >Would like to note also that while it may be not the most important for BSD >user groups to enjoy big gatherings, the community aspect is very much >alive: the mailing list traffic, the very existence of freebsd-chat@ all >prove this point. It is not unusual for people with a hobby to pursue it >for both the object of it (eg software) and for socializing. I made this point as well - however I think that for maybe 50% of FreeBSD subscribers here that they have moved beyond hobby and are using FreeBSD professionally. >Reading through the threads recently about why the BSD's public profile >isn't as high as it could be, I think that this "splendid isolation" may be >a reason not only because nobody is going to know what you have >unless you tell >it and show it, but also because many perceive this exclusive behaviour as >elitist and condescending along the lines of: We are the best and we know >it but for most of you guys we are just too good. While I'll agree that there's some people that have taken the "splendid isolation" idea as condescending, I don't feel that this is fair since I don't feel there is really any official or even organized idea of "our shit don't stink" I think the real issue is that BSD tends to attract people that don't go in for the group thing, Linux does, so naturally after a long time the Linux group is going to be stuffed with people that start yapping anytime the least little public thing starts happening. However, no one can be responsible for how other people misinterpret their behavior, it's not our fault if people choose to percieve BSD users as condescending. BSD is all about freedom. I'll give you the freedom to jump to the conclusion that I'm condescending if you choose to do this. The Linux people don't give you that freedom - they insist that you know exactly how they feel whether you want to or not. >So, instead of trying to >define the BSD way by fighting others and expanding on differences of >opinion, we should focus on bringing what we have out to the world. Um, what is this _we_ business? Where is the _I_ in your statement? >Not >keeping it for ourselves in dark rooms in lone hacking nights and expecting >that people find it and somehow get it from us and if they fail to find us >denouncing them in talkback columns as clueless if they prefer to write >about what's out there. We need stories that involve BSD, success stories, >technical papers, executive reports, and we have to give the feeling to >people who happen to check in that "yes you are important" and "yes, we >will look into that" (and then do as promised). There is no way that we could ever be as good as the Linux folks in doing the petting thing. The newbies that must have constant petting are going to gravitate to Linux because that is what they do over there. It really isn't my or anyone else's job to validate a newbies existence and give them self-confidence by telling them that they are important. If they are a human being they ARE important, and if they haven't learned that by the time they walk in wanting to learn about BSD then they shouldn't be there. Our job is to tell the newbies that "yes, your INTEREST in FreeBSD is important" because it is. Our job is also to tell them "Yes, YOU can look into it for yourself because it's Open Source. If they need life-validation they need to get themselves a Significant Other. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com Even stories like "We used >FreeBSD yesterday night at a party to serve the music and it kept ticking >the whole night without missing a beat" count since people may ask what the >hell that BSD thing is. IMHO, this is the way that would be in-keeping with >the BSD way (focus on the important stuff). > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message