From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 8 3: 8: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBA937B405; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f68A7SM77466; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C93F3811; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Sergey Babkin Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B47E06D.32067E46@bellatlantic.net> Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 03:07:28 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20010708100728.5C93F3811@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sergey Babkin wrote: > Peter Wemm wrote: > > > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > In message <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: > > > > > > >If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > > > >can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > > > >unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? > > First, I want to say that after Jordan's explanation I agree > that this is not a worty idea, at least for now. So the > further is just for a more clear explanation. > > > > Why on _earth_ would we make it so hard for people to get hold > > > of a media copy of FreeBSD, when absolutely nothing prevents > > For example, to help fund the release engineering process. What release engineering process? The way things stand right now: - snapshots get regularly built by US-WEST machines. - somebody does a periodic 'make release' and calls it a beta - volunteers test it - somebody does a 'make release' and calls it a release - the packages are collected from the package building machines that run continuously and put in directories - somebody does a mkisofs for the 4 cd set. There isn't much else that gets added to make something 'official' or not. The FreeBSD project provides the base images. The official release is the base system that goes on ftp.freebsd.org. There isn't much here that can be paid for. Yahoo provided the i386 ports build machines. Compaq provided the Alpha ports build machines. US-WEST provided the snapshot build machines. Yahoo and US-WEST provide bandwidth. The ports build system is supervised by volunteers who do it for fun and/ or personal satisfaction for the project at large. The ftp and cvsup mirrors and bandwidth for those are provided by a cast of thousands. > > > me or anybody else from rolling a net distribution ? > > If buying the rights to the "official" distribution is cheaper, > why would anyone want to redo it ? Anybody can make their own release that is indistinguishable from the official release. There is no 'value add' on the official release at all, apart from somebody ftp'ing the XFree86 releases, the freebsd releases and the ports packages / distfiles and shuffling it to make it all fit. Anybody can do that. In fact, we've now got a DVD release in the pipeline that doesn't even need all that much in the way of shuffling. The only thing that the freebsd.org 'make release' command doesn't do is actually run mkisofs so that it spits out a bootable .iso image. The reason the project provides all this for free is because many of the developers who did it are using it themselves for internal releases within their companies etc. I dont mean to undersell the effort that jkh and crew go to in order that we actually get a release coordinated, and there is a fair bit more to having a worthwhile release than producing a .iso image. There is cover artwork, the logistics of getting CD's made, inventory, shipping, getting CD's into stores, etc. I'd wager *that* is far more costly and time consuming than rolling a few custom .iso's. > > And if some organization is funding developers to work on FreeBSD full > > time, then I personally would go out of my way to help them too, should > > they need something. (several spring to mind) > > > > All this hot air about "protecting" the .iso's is the *least* of our > > It's not about protecting. It's about financiallly stimulating more > organizations to fund developers to work on FreeBSD. The ISO image > distribution rights don't have to be exchanged for money, they > may just as well (and better) be exchanged for such support. Encouraging more organizations to fund developers is an entirely different thing to charging for release materials that can be independently generated for free in a few hours/days/whatever. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jul 8 3:11:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.thinksec.com (time.thinksec.com [193.212.248.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC89437B407 for ; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:11:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@enigma.thinksec.com) Received: from enigma.thinksec.com (lsl27.nsn.no [195.159.104.218]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "enigma.thinksec.com", Issuer CN "ThinkSec CA admin" (verified OK)) by mx1.thinksec.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717CD4816D; Sun, 8 Jul 2001 12:11:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by enigma.thinksec.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3AD9E3EB19; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:02:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:02:55 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.19i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 05:47:43PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: [As quotations from people he hoped to disagree with] > You can be sure-- absolutely sure-- that BSD's days are numbered now > that Gates & Company have embraced it. If Microsoft absorbs BSD and > releases it to the public as their "open source" product, you can be sure that > development on it outside of Redmond will stop dead in its tracks, because no > genuine open source developer, including those from BSD itself, who has any > intelligence at all, or pride in his work, or sense of fairness, will > continue to work on it, knowing that Microsoft's miscreants will steal the > fruit of his labor without the slightest qualm of conscience. Once BSD > belongs to Microsoft, it will be on a slippery slope to oblivion. Most of the BSD developers are not driven by a hate for Microsoft - they are driven by a love of what they are doing. If Microsoft base an operating system on BSD, this do not block our use of BSD, and it does not make it harder to contribute. > Microsoft can take a perfectly good product and, with their onerous licensing > schemes, proprietary extensions to the code, and generally evil intentions, > ruin it and drive it to extinction. The same will happen to BSD under > Microsoft. Microsoft is already borrowing from our code. I can't say I've seen it stop us (or even slow us down.) Either Microsoft make something that all potential BSD developers are happy with (and if they do, more power to them!) or development will continue. Microsoft can only derive from our code, not take it away from us. > But such a thing cannot happen to code protected by the GPL, and this is > driving Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer absolutely insane as attested to by > their recent statements in the press! That is why Microsoft hates Linux: > They can't buy it or steal it, and that fact is driving them nuts. They > can see that Linux is on the path to making Microsoft redundant. And maybe > all of this constitutes some of the reasons why BSD has not been embraced > by the business community as widely as Linux. This is perceived by the Linux community as being unable to happen to GPLed code. And that protection is being perceived as being necessary, and as creating more code contributions. Due to this perception being more common among easily excitable people, Linux attracts more easily excitable people, which again creates more hype around Linux compared to the number of people using it (which also is a larger number of people than BSD in absolute terms.) This perception at least often rests on a lack of understanding of the underlying economics of the business of program development for the mass market. > > > Leo - Subject: BSD license is weak for software commons ( Jun 30, 2001, 13:51:44 ) > This has been said a million times before. I guess it's time to say it > again. BSD license is great for proprietary companies. BSD license would > also be good if, and only if, we could honestly say that 99% of all people > are good and altruistic. However that is not the case. This is a faulty analysis. The BSD license has advantages in a lot of situation if we assume that the actors are locally rational and greedy, too. Economic reasons for this is discussed below. > The reality is different. In the real world you have many companies and > powerful individuals that only wait for an opportunity to use something > without paying back. I don't think I need to give examples, do I? We all > know many such examples. Some of them were mentioned in the talkbacks here. This is a pure appeal to emotions. > In light of this, the GPL is the *only* license that effectively protects a > software commons. More appeal to emotions, and an attempt at making the GPL "holy". Even if copyleft fit the description (and IMO it does not), the GPL is not the only license for copyright. > GPL license makes it very hard and cost inefficient to produce a proprietary > version with locked-in features and customers. GPL license *encourages* > developers to contribute to the commons, because they can be safe in the > knowledge that their competitor is not easily going to use this against > them, nor could a competitor create an incompatible and secret fork (other > than for internal use). This is only true if the developers are basically paranoids that will only program if they can be sure of not being in some mythical fashion "exploited". This may be true of a large number of Linux developers, but the rest of us basically program for at least one out of three reasons: (1) It is fun (2) It solves annoyances in our everyday world or in the programs we are using (3) We get paid for it These reasons do not get away just because a larger amount of entities get benefit from our code. > BSD is great for companies like M$ and Apple, because they can take what > they want and give nothing back. They're free to produce proprietary and > incompatible extensions. But tell me, WHAT IS THE ECONOMICAL > INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY *CONTRIBUTE* TO BSD, > UNDER A BSD LICENSE??? None whatsoever. None at all. None. Nil. Nie, > No, Net, Non! They gain *nothing* by releasing their own source code under a > BSD license. More emotionally laden nonsense. There are a bunch of reasons to contribute changes back to the open source projects: (1) You get much less integration work when you want to utilize newer version of the open source project. Basically, the changes you have now made maintain themselves WRT the open source project for free, rather than needing more care. (2) You get a bunch of experts from various areas testing, reviewing and debugging your code. This has a large relevance on getting increased quality. (3) You get external goodwill. This makes the panel of experts willing help even when it is with things that are not directly relevant for them. (4) You get internal goodwill. Employees are more happy, and you get an easier time recruiting the people that are experienced with the codebase you work with. (5) You can create a de-facto standard, as people can use your code directly whether they develop a proprietary product or a free one. > They can't even use that for creating a de-facto standard, > because the commons is not protected, thus the standard is not protected > under a BSD license. This assumes that there is a direct wish to be incompatible with any standard. This is not correct. Companies usually wish to be compatible but have extra features, unless they are in close to total dominance of the market in question and are breaking anti-trust laws. > Now, there are a few exceptions from this rule. One of them, for example, > M$ might release some stuff under BSD for political reasons. Not because > they actually benefit from this move directly, but because it may piss of > GNU/Linux people or something like that. Or maybe just to say, "See, we > really do support FreeBSD." But it would be nothing but a loss leader and > not any kind of commitment. Nor would M$ really enjoy it, but rather do it > out of political necessity, IF AT ALL. And as soon as the political > necessity stops, they would stop immediately all BSD code releases, and > quickly fork everything into a locked-in, secret, and incompatible version. > > None of this crap is possible with GPL. And what is the result? A completely separate codebase, where there is no possibility of the companies contributing to the free codebase, as the companies are working on a totally unrelated codebase. > I've seen many BSD people post. They strike me as very bright and very > altruistic. In fact, they're too altruistic. They're more altruistic and > more naive than the GPL people. GPL people are more pragmatic. GPL person > would say, "yea, I wanna share, but I am also going to cover my a**, thank > you very much." BSD person says, "I share without any strings attached, even > if this kills me or does harm in the marketplace...I don't care. I just > share, and if someone uses this for ill gain, it's their own problem." I > sympathize with BSD people, but I can't agree with their irresponsible > sharing. They altruism and trust is misplaced. The choice of a BSD vs GPL license is far from always based on trust in people not wanting to exploit the codebase. The choice is based on an analysis of what we think result in the maximum amount of contributions and in our own maximum benefit from the contributions we do. > Just because a thing like apache did not get seriously forked is no > indication that it cannot ever happen. Why take risk? Why use the > economical lever, when the legal lever is much more direct and more powerful > in this case? Because we see benefits in properitary extensions. When somebody use our codebase in a proprietary environment, they are working on the codebase. This means they likely will be producing beneficial changes to the codebase. These changes come in two forms - strategic changes, that are sellable and part of added value, and tactical changes, that have value as levers for creating the strategic changes, but no intrisic competitive advantage. The latter usually are more plentiful than the former, and have larger value when given back to the community (buying goodwill) than when kept proprietary (costing money to maintain). > It beats me. I figure most developers will continue to prefer GPL, because > it makes good sense to use it. The OS/app with the most developer mind > share will win. The most open OS/app will win. GPL is more open than BSD. > GPL code base does not spawn dark shadows and hidden corners around itself. > It IS more open. Openness wins. More emotional nonsense. You can argue it both ways: - "The BSD license gives each user of the original codebase more freedom in what to do with it, and as a such BSD licensed software is more open the GPLed software." - "The GPL makes sure each user of a derivate work has the same freedom, and thus makes sure there are no users with less freedom, and due to that GPLed software is more open than BSD licensed software." In my opinion, the former makes more sense, as "We take your freedom away, and thus you are more free!" has never made sense to me. Derivates of BSD licensed software may be less free than GPLed software; but this is a completely different discussion. Feel free to reproduce my comments. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 1:10:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 664) id 8D6DF37B40C; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 01:10:28 -0700 From: David O'Brien To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Dirk Myers , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010709011028.A2736@hub.freebsd.org> Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:11PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:11PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > I thing my word choice obscured my intent: > > The FSF holds the copyright to insure that the PROJECT will remain forever > GPL'ed. NO. The FSF holds the copyright to insure it is *defendable*. If GCC, et. al. was not fully owned by them it would be quite hard to sue someone over abuse of copyright or license. Same reason UC-Berkeley/CSFG did the same for BSD. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 5:27:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from 1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu (1upmc-msximc2.isdip.upmc.edu [128.147.18.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C9437B403 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 05:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from personrp@ccbh.com) Received: by 1UPMC-MSXIMC2 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <3KG88M24>; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A66847F@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> From: "Person, Roderick" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this re asoning?) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:25:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C10872.49F65960" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C10872.49F65960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Steve Price - On Debian Users... > Deep down inside they really like BSD and want to use it instead but > still want to be "cool" and say that they are using Linux. :) I'd have to agree with this. For 2 years I used Debian, up until then I had never touch a *nix, other than hacking VMS if you wanna could that. But once into Debian I keep see all this code that had BSD this or that in the license or comments. So I began to wonder what is this BSD. Why is everyone taking thier code. It must be so good stuff if everyone else is using it. I stumbled onto the the BSD/Debian thing and as I remember they were talking Debian /w FreeBSD (could be wrong my memory sucks) but and way it led me to FreeBSD.org. Then I switch to FBSD and have been using it for close to 3 years I believe now. I check on Debian now and again but don't see much going on there in fact I bought Debian 2.1 a month or so before swithing to FBSD and I see that the still on 2.2, guess that's the price of a world wide developement staff. Roderick P. Person Programmer II (412)454-2616 personrp@ccbh.com "Get the thing straight once and for all. The policeman isn't there to create disorder. The policeman is there to perserve disorder." - Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Price [mailto:steve@havk.org] > Sent: July 07, 2001 12:56 PM > To: James Howard > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any > reponse to this > reasoning?) > > > On Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:24:32PM -0400, James Howard wrote: > > > > > He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have > > > almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian > > > GNU/FreeBSD, for example. > > > > They did produce one. However, I could not find any links > to it a few > > weeks ago when I tried to find it. > > Not true. After a year or more of talking about it the project > has produced little more than a port of dpkg. Some people have > claimed to have gone much further than this but nobody has > produced any code much less a distribution. Every so often the > interest picks back up and they argue over which of the BSDs to > use as a base, whether they should use a GNU or BSD userland, ... > In fact, just moments ago someone posted wondering what the > benefits of DebianBSD would be and wondered if a NetBSD package > that mimiced the Debian way wouldn't be the proper path. To which > someone replied that that wouldn't be a true Debian. It really is > quite comical at times. Nearly everyone interested in the project > wants a BSD kernel because they feel it is better than Linux or > because (Net)BSD has been ported to more platforms. They always > come back to the same thing. They want dpkg and friends on BSD > but they want it to still be Debian and in some way Linux. Deep > down inside they really like BSD and want to use it instead but > still want to be "cool" and say that they are using Linux. :) > > I'm not belittling them by any means and this is all IMHO of > course so if there are any trolls out there - flames to /dev/null. > > -steve > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C10872.49F65960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this = reasoning?)

Steve Price - On Debian Users...
> Deep down inside they really like BSD and want = to use it instead but
> still want to be "cool" and say that = they are using Linux. :)

I'd have to agree with this. For 2 years I used = Debian, up until then I had never touch a *nix, other than hacking VMS = if you wanna could that.

But once into Debian I keep see all this code that = had BSD this or that in the license or comments. So I began to wonder = what is this BSD. Why is everyone taking thier code. It must be so good = stuff if everyone else is using it. I stumbled onto the the BSD/Debian = thing and as I remember they were talking Debian /w FreeBSD (could be = wrong my memory sucks) but and way it led me to FreeBSD.org. Then I = switch to FBSD and have been using it for close to 3 years I believe = now. I check on Debian now and again but don't see much going on there = in fact I bought Debian 2.1 a month or so before swithing to FBSD and I = see that the still on 2.2, guess that's the price of a world wide = developement staff.

Roderick P. Person
Programmer II
(412)454-2616
personrp@ccbh.com

"Get the thing straight once and for all. The = policeman isn't
there to create disorder. The policeman is there to = perserve
disorder."
 - Richard Daley, mayor of Chicago




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Price [mailto:steve@havk.org]
> Sent: July 07, 2001 12:56 PM
> To: James Howard
> Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net = comments - any
> reponse to this
> reasoning?)
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:24:32PM -0400, James = Howard wrote:
> >
> > > He's done that.  But he was = talking about a BSD which would have
> > > almost only GNU userland.  = People keep talking about a Debian
> > > GNU/FreeBSD, for example.
> >
> > They did produce one.  However, I = could not find any links
> to it a few
> > weeks ago when I tried to find it.
>
> Not true.  After a year or more of talking = about it the project
> has produced little more than a port of = dpkg.  Some people have
> claimed to have gone much further than this but = nobody has
> produced any code much less a = distribution.  Every so often the
> interest picks back up and they argue over = which of the BSDs to
> use as a base, whether they should use a GNU or = BSD userland, ...
> In fact, just moments ago someone posted = wondering what the
> benefits of DebianBSD would be and wondered if = a NetBSD package
> that mimiced the Debian way wouldn't be the = proper path.  To which
> someone replied that that wouldn't be a true = Debian.  It really is
> quite comical at times.  Nearly everyone = interested in the project
> wants a BSD kernel because they feel it is = better than Linux or
> because (Net)BSD has been ported to more = platforms.  They always
> come back to the same thing.  They want = dpkg and friends on BSD
> but they want it to still be Debian and in some = way Linux.  Deep
> down inside they really like BSD and want to = use it instead but
> still want to be "cool" and say that = they are using Linux. :)
>
> I'm not belittling them by any means and this = is all IMHO of
> course so if there are any trolls out there - = flames to /dev/null.
>
> -steve
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to = majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" = in the body of the message
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C10872.49F65960-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 8:49:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8E237B403 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15JdHS-0006Cx-00; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:49:02 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f69FmwL42839; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:48:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:48:57 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "David O'Brien" Cc: Wes Peters , Dirk Myers Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010709164857.B42753@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010709011028.A2736@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010709011028.A2736@hub.freebsd.org>; from freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:10:28AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:10:28AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: | On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:11PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: | > I thing my word choice obscured my intent: | > | > The FSF holds the copyright to insure that the PROJECT will remain forever | > GPL'ed. | | NO. The FSF holds the copyright to insure it is *defendable*. If GCC, | et. al. was not fully owned by them it would be quite hard to sue someone | over abuse of copyright or license. Same reason UC-Berkeley/CSFG did the | same for BSD. Hmmm. Well, that does make sense, though I find it hard to believe that a great deal of GPL code couldn't be easily 'stolen' in the sense of using it and not giving back. If it isn't GUI code (in some cases even *that* could be explained away) and if it doesn't produce identical output, I find it hard to believe anyone could *prove* in a court of law that binary A includes source B, which is GPL protected. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 9:50:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943E637B406; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.114.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.114]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA15073; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 09:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B49E0FB.FA88D7A3@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 09:51:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Yes, all of the above are bad, and they're a sign of an even worse > problem. FreeBSD has done well for the past 8 years due in large part > because it an energetic and persuasive "product manager" in the person > of Jordan K. Hubbard pushing, cajoling, and badgering the CD-ROM > product through the arduous steps of production. Those who think > this process happens on auto-pilot are deluded; it has to be baby- > stepped through every time. The main issues are the distribution files that are not standardized, not memorialized in the makefiles, the binary only files which belong to Walnut Creek and can't really be distributed by others, and the holes in the build process (particularly, the 34 or so ports necessary for the Docs build, the package file assembly, and the X11 distribution that's built out and installed in its own weird-ass format, instead of as a package). I believe that the packages are still built-out by Satoshi, not Jordan. The docs ports are problematic: recently, with the ftp.freebsd.org fiasco, it was not possible to build a full release, unless you happened to know that there was exactly one non-deleting mirror where you could get the required files (in England). It also pointed out the flaws in the single point of failure model. > Specifically, we need a Product Manager who can shepherd > FreeBSD through the release process, and coordinate with > CD-ROM distributor(s) who are interested in producing and > selling CDs, DVDs, etc of the "official" FreeBSD distribution. Actually, No. What needs to happen is that the tools needed to do the build need to be collected with the rest of the sources, so that the system is fully self hosted. It would also be nice if someone wanted to commit those patches I made to sysinstall and the /usr/src/release Makefile to permit building CDROMs with other-than-GENERIC kernels to actually work. PAO and others agreed that they were desirable. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 10:10: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6D637B405; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.114.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.114]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07937; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:10:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton wrote: > The thorny question of "What do they have to include and still call it > FreeBSD?" is resolved by saying that any FreeBSD distribution must > include, as a minimum, the contents of the "mini" ISO (including > sysinstall). Anyone that wants to include an alternative installation > routine (open or closed source) can do, as long as sysinstall is still > there. Then the FreeBSD docs can continue to refer to sysinstall, and > the project doesn't get flack if someone puts together a distribution > with a crap installer, because sysinstall will always be there as a > fallback. First: sysinstall must die: this is non-negotiable. Second: it is an albatross, and forcing people to include it is obnoxious, and definitely not in the long term best interests of the project. Third: tying the hands of distributors with regard to what they "must" distribute is stupid: you might as well GPL the damn thing, and call it a day, if you want that level of editorial control over third party distributors content. Personally, I'd be perfectly happy to trust people to do right by the project; I'd be happy with an X server that configured itself in software, and with a default boot-to-X and that Java version of the InstallShield product. I'd also like to see someone produce a handicap accessible version of FreeBSD: e.g. there would be no sysinstall. I'd like to see a distribution that Installed multiple roots, and supported fail-over booting like nextboot used to. And I want to see a distribution where / is mounted read-only, with only the necessary parts being mounted writeable at all. Making people keep sysinstall precludes innovations which make FreeBSD more accessible to more people, and broaden the user base. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 11: 6:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB9B37B401 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Din@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (mini1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.98]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f69I6UK37122 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:06:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Din@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B49F249.F1A4E3CD@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:04:57 -0600 From: Don Root Reply-To: Don@Network-Lynx.net Organization: Network Lynx X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: NAI/DARPA initiative Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Normally, I don't think having the feds involved in anything is a good thing, but with this new security push I can see a lot of positivity, assuming the tech transfer goes in both directions. DARPA seems to have realized that the major security vulnerability in America's IT infrastructure isn't the hardened systems or the systems maintained by savvy admins at big corporations like Yahoo, it's the millions of hopelessly insecure boxes out there that can be conscripted to be slave labor in sniffing, DDoS or packet-time-guessing attacks. Cheers to Robert Watson and all others who reeled this in! -- Don Wilde, President Network Lynx 866-272-5586 Email: Don@Network-Lynx.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 11:25: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D8C37B405; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.114.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.114]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13145; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B49F6FA.883BBCD5@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:24:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Sergey Babkin , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <32135.994489881@critter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message <3B4650D0.97F10B83@bellatlantic.net>, Sergey Babkin writes: > > >If the FreeBSD Foundation is an existing entity now, maybe we > >can just change the license for the CD images to "not for resale" > >unless the distributor signs an agreement with the Foundation ? > > Why on _earth_ would we make it so hard for people to get hold > of a media copy of FreeBSD, when absolutely nothing prevents > me or anybody else from rolling a net distribution ? You read my mind. I'd be happy to roll a distribution, should someone do that to the images, just to get out from under it. It's not rocket science. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 11:36: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C357037B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA9C2; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:42:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3B49F98D.A945A093@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:35:57 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> <3B4205CD.51C186FD@acuson.com> <20010707063227.F1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 3 July 2001 at 10:50:05 -0700, David Johnson wrote: > > > > As for naming a particular OS "GNU/FreeBSD", that has been suggested (in > > jest) already. RMS' response to it was (grossly paraphrased) > > "ridiculous". > > Not what he said to me. And for what we're talking about, the naming > doesn't seem ridiculous to me either, though I don't know why anybody > would want a Debian BSD. I was trying to find the response that I mentioned above. It was quite a while ago, and I haven't found it. But I found the following message from RMS (October 1999, license-discuss@opensource.org) that is interesting nonetheless... >> If I was to replace all of Solaris's utilities with the GNU >> equivalents, would anybody call it GNU/Solaris? > I for one would not call it that. Copying just the utilities from GNU > is not enough of a reason to say "the result is basically the GNU > system." What GNU/Linux has in common with GNU is much more than a > bunch of utilities. If you took the kernel of Solaris and made it > work in the GNU system, that would produce GNU/Solaris. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 12: 9: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AE937B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:08:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.114.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.114]) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15000; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B4A0154.702EDA6@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:09:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sergey Babkin Cc: Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <20010707081731.952F7380F@overcee.netplex.com.au> <3B47E06D.32067E46@bellatlantic.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sergey Babkin wrote: > It's not about protecting. It's about financiallly stimulating more > organizations to fund developers to work on FreeBSD. The ISO image > distribution rights don't have to be exchanged for money, they > may just as well (and better) be exchanged for such support. The most obvious way to do this, IMO, is to make FreeBSD more accessiblle for use in commercial ventures, be it embedded systems or as a backdrop for commercial software using it as a platform on which some company puts their own face forward. This means making it substantially easier to do things like building distributions with custom kernels, greatly simplified "default installation" type things, etc.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 12:22: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186F437B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA261C; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:28:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4A0458.36F6AB0E@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:22:00 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eivind Eklund wrote: > > In light of this, the GPL is the *only* license that effectively protects a > > software commons. > > More appeal to emotions, and an attempt at making the GPL "holy". Even if > copyleft fit the description (and IMO it does not), the GPL is not the only > license for copyright. It is more than a simple appeal to emotions. Real "commons" in history were plots of land owned by the feudal nobility and rented out in exchange for oaths of serfdom. By stating that the GPL protects the software commons, the conclusion is that developers are akin to feudal lords and users are like serfs. I would rather give the users their own plot of land that they can do with as they wish. That is why I prefer to use the BSD license. > In my opinion, the former makes more sense, as "We take your freedom away, and > thus you are more free!" has never made sense to me. Nor to me. The GPL advocates usually use real world laws against theft and murder as a justification for restricting freedom in order to protect freedom. But laws against theft and murder are not for the purpose of protecting freedom! Their purpose is to hinder or prevent theft and murder! I know of no real world law that restricts freedom for the stated purpose of protecting freedom. Protecting freedom by limiting freedom is one of silliest ideas I have yet encountered. Perhaps the Free Software should be renamed to "Fair Software". Then the philosophy and actions of GNU/FSF would make a lot more sense. After all, the real world is replete with laws limiting freedom and restricting liberty in order to protect "fairness". David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 12:26:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EDE37B405 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA2842; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:32:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4A054E.8BEAD7E@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:26:06 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Person, Roderick" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) References: <46AEB8C1B628D511969200508B6FE42A66847F@1upmc-msx6.isdip.upmc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "Person, Roderick" wrote: > fact I bought Debian 2.1 a month or so before swithing to FBSD and I > see that the still on 2.2, guess that's the price of a world wide > developement staff. That's not the price of a world wide staff. That's the price of direct democracy. Imagine how stagnant FreeBSD would become if every contributor, regardless of commit priviledges, had an equal vote in every decision. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 12:39:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from a.mx.everquick.net (a.mx.everquick.net [216.89.137.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E579F37B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eddy+public+spam@noc.everquick.net) Received: from localhost (eddy@localhost) by a.mx.everquick.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f69JcP618610; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:38:25 GMT X-EverQuick-No-Abuse: Report any e-mail abuse to Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:38:24 +0000 (GMT) From: "E.B. Dreger" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Sergey Babkin , Peter Wemm , Poul-Henning Kamp , Kris Kennaway , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jordan Hubbard , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, wes@softweyr.com, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B4A0154.702EDA6@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:09:08 -0700 > From: Terry Lambert > The most obvious way to do this, IMO, is to make FreeBSD > more accessiblle for use in commercial ventures, be it > embedded systems or as a backdrop for commercial software > using it as a platform on which some company puts their > own face forward. To this end, I'd say: * More emphasis on Pico * Pick'n'choose which specifc files (not just sets) > This means making it substantially easier to do things > like building distributions with custom kernels, greatly > simplified "default installation" type things, etc.. I'm not opposed to a GUI-based easy install and config, so long as I don't have to use it or even have it on disk. I rather like sysinstall, and would _not_ want something GUI or anything like RH's installer or YaST. Eddy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita/(Inter)national Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature. These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to , or you are likely to be blocked. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 12:56:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2F537B403 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.114.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.114]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19775; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 12:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B4A0C6E.7A7E96B2@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:56:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: j mckitrick , Wes Peters , Dirk Myers Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010709011028.A2736@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > NO. The FSF holds the copyright to insure it is *defendable*. > If GCC, et. al. was not fully owned by them it would be quite > hard to sue someone over abuse of copyright or license. Actually, they say that, but it's not true: they could bring a class action, no problem. > Same reason UC-Berkeley/CSFG did the same for BSD. That's a different case: they wanted to distribute the code under a simple license, and could not grant the rights they wanted to grant without the blanket. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 13:31:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5060A37B403 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 937AF6ACC1; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:01:15 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 06:01:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: j mckitrick Cc: David O'Brien , Wes Peters , Dirk Myers Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710060114.Q80862@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3B449C54.EC88E204@softweyr.com> <20010705184811.A78227@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010709011028.A2736@hub.freebsd.org> <20010709164857.B42753@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010709164857.B42753@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:48:57PM +0100 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 9 July 2001 at 16:48:57 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:10:28AM -0700, David O'Brien wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:11PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >>> I thing my word choice obscured my intent: >>> >>> The FSF holds the copyright to insure that the PROJECT will remain forever >>> GPL'ed. >> >> NO. The FSF holds the copyright to insure it is *defendable*. If GCC, >> et. al. was not fully owned by them it would be quite hard to sue someone >> over abuse of copyright or license. Same reason UC-Berkeley/CSFG did the >> same for BSD. > > Hmmm. Well, that does make sense, though I find it hard to believe that a > great deal of GPL code couldn't be easily 'stolen' in the sense of using it > and not giving back. Of course. I'm sure it happens all the time. I once had to sign an NDA to see the source code of a compiler which proved to be gcc. > If it isn't GUI code (in some cases even *that* could be explained > away) and if it doesn't produce identical output, I find it hard to > believe anyone could *prove* in a court of law that binary A > includes source B, which is GPL protected. Given the understanding of the legal profession, I consider it more likely that the court would require defendant to produce the source code. That would be a lot more obvious. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 14:54:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from post.webmailer.de (natpost.webmailer.de [192.67.198.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 505B137B406; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 14:54:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Inferno@nightfire.de) Received: from blackangel.nightfire.de (p228.n01.ham.access.is-europe.net [195.179.168.228]) by post.webmailer.de (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26882; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:54:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010709231202.024b0330@post.strato.de> X-Sender: Inferno%nightfire.de@post.strato.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:18:01 +0200 To: Greg Lehey From: Olaf Hoyer Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD (was: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning?) Cc: "Thomas M. Sommers" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010707063121.E1368@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010630173455.T344@teleport.com> <20010701032900.A93049@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010701132353.W344@teleport.com> <20010702152649.A18127@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010702180222.A2667@hades.hell.gr> <3B412280.ED210541@mail.ptd.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >He's done that. But he was talking about a BSD which would have >almost only GNU userland. People keep talking about a Debian >GNU/FreeBSD, for example. HI! Just returning from german Linuxtag. I had some extensive talks there with the debian guys (I went home with one of their developers living on my city...) There are talks inside debian community to create something like a (GNU/debian)/OpenBSD. Basically, some of their developers think or wonder about the technical possibility to harden the Linux system or making it more secure. Basic idea is to take the OpenBSD kernel and basic userland, and add some extended portions of GNU userland (where no approp. BSD userland will be available) and add some sophisticated features like debian package management. This is highly debated inside the developers, if this is (technically) possible without great hassle, and if it would be better to take OpenBSD as some model and write something own modeled after techniques from BSD. This is only a consideration some developers are discussing at the moment, and not to be taken as official statement of the debian project. Olaf Hoyer To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 15:17:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D818B37B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f69MGQM95070; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:16:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 23:16:26 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: <20010709231626.B16152@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:10:37AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:10:37AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > The thorny question of "What do they have to include and still call it > > FreeBSD?" is resolved by saying that any FreeBSD distribution must > > include, as a minimum, the contents of the "mini" ISO (including > > sysinstall). Anyone that wants to include an alternative installation > > routine (open or closed source) can do, as long as sysinstall is still > > there. Then the FreeBSD docs can continue to refer to sysinstall, and > > the project doesn't get flack if someone puts together a distribution > > with a crap installer, because sysinstall will always be there as a > > fallback. >=20 > First: sysinstall must die: this is non-negotiable. >=20 > Second: it is an albatross, and forcing people to > include it is obnoxious, and definitely not in the > long term best interests of the project. >=20 > Third: tying the hands of distributors with regard > to what they "must" distribute is stupid: you might > as well GPL the damn thing, and call it a day, if > you want that level of editorial control over third > party distributors content. It's reasonable to want to control what get's called FreeBSD. The intent here is not to prevent third party installers -- they can be open source, closed source, or whatever mix you want. If you want to produce a commercial distribution of FreeBSD that does not use sysinstall as the default installation mechanism then go right ahead, make it the default, have it come up automatically when your customers=20 boot from CD, and so on. However, if you want to call it FreeBSD, then, somewhere, sysinstall (and whatever replaces it) must be available. Put it on "boot-legacy.flp"= =20 if you want, and strongly urge your customers not to use it. But make it available to those that want it. Then I can make sure that the Handbook chapter on installation says, right at the beginning: This chapter describes how to install FreeBSD using the installation software provided by the project. Third party vendors are completely free to provide their own installation routine, document it, and support it. However, they must also provide and document a mechanism for you to=20 use sysinstall. This is the only installer we document here, and it's very likely that the members of -questions mailing list will only be able to answer installation related questions if you're using sysinstall. If, at some point, you (or whatever third party develops a better installation system) donates it back to the project then it becomes the sysinstall replacement we've all yearned for, and the documentation can be updated accordingly. > Personally, I'd be perfectly happy to trust people > to do right by the project; I'd be happy with an X > server that configured itself in software, and with > a default boot-to-X and that Java version of the > InstallShield product. I'd also like to see someone > produce a handicap accessible version of FreeBSD: > e.g. there would be no sysinstall. I'd like to see > a distribution that Installed multiple roots, and > supported fail-over booting like nextboot used to. > And I want to see a distribution where / is mounted > read-only, with only the necessary parts being mounted > writeable at all. All of that is fine. Indeed, I'd like to see them happen as well. > Making people keep sysinstall precludes innovations > which make FreeBSD more accessible to more people, > and broaden the user base. Just to make sure we're not talking at cross purposes -- all I'm saying is that sysinstall must be available somewhere on the installation media that you provide, and that instructions on how to boot from it as an alternative to whatever installation mechanism you provide must also be available. I am *not* saying that sysinstall *must* be used, just that it *must* be available for use. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjtKLTkACgkQk6gHZCw343Wu2wCeMXLKY6bDEy1CZYchCrzs6Vs0 1AgAnAwwrDdh6rwbGrJJq92ZlBdSg6Bq =a/JY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 16:31:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF69637B403; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f69NFdt08838; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral In-Reply-To: <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com> References: <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010709161539I.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:15:39 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 70 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is all patently ridiculous, especially given that we know you have a previously declared bias in being able to sell some sort of installer for money and would clearly wish to kill any "competition" for it, no matter how benign it would be to otherwise include it as an option (which is all Nik was saying). Whether you personally find any merit in sysinstall or not, and I'm often among the first to point out its many shortcomings, trying to kill it off for business reasons is just as obnoxious and Microsoft-ish as trying to kill off, say, RAID support because you just so happen to have a proprietary RAID solution you'd prefer users to use instead. Yeesh! Talk about a complete and total failure to get what FreeBSD is all about! I really have to wonder why you continue to hover around the community like a horsefly, year after year, without contributing anything but complaints about how things should be remoulded in your own image... It's a crock, Terry, and it stinks like a porta-potty in Texas at high noon. - Jordan From: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 10:10:37 -0700 > Nik Clayton wrote: > > The thorny question of "What do they have to include and still call it > > FreeBSD?" is resolved by saying that any FreeBSD distribution must > > include, as a minimum, the contents of the "mini" ISO (including > > sysinstall). Anyone that wants to include an alternative installation > > routine (open or closed source) can do, as long as sysinstall is still > > there. Then the FreeBSD docs can continue to refer to sysinstall, and > > the project doesn't get flack if someone puts together a distribution > > with a crap installer, because sysinstall will always be there as a > > fallback. > > First: sysinstall must die: this is non-negotiable. > > Second: it is an albatross, and forcing people to > include it is obnoxious, and definitely not in the > long term best interests of the project. > > Third: tying the hands of distributors with regard > to what they "must" distribute is stupid: you might > as well GPL the damn thing, and call it a day, if > you want that level of editorial control over third > party distributors content. > > Personally, I'd be perfectly happy to trust people > to do right by the project; I'd be happy with an X > server that configured itself in software, and with > a default boot-to-X and that Java version of the > InstallShield product. I'd also like to see someone > produce a handicap accessible version of FreeBSD: > e.g. there would be no sysinstall. I'd like to see > a distribution that Installed multiple roots, and > supported fail-over booting like nextboot used to. > And I want to see a distribution where / is mounted > read-only, with only the necessary parts being mounted > writeable at all. > > > Making people keep sysinstall precludes innovations > which make FreeBSD more accessible to more people, > and broaden the user base. > > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jul 9 19:56:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [64.211.219.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E3537B401; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA05211; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 19:56:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAIzaqfk; Mon Jul 9 19:55:49 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20027; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 20:12:07 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200107100312.UAA20027@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral To: jkh@osd.bsdi.com Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 03:11:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tedm@toybox.placo.com, ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ] This is all patently ridiculous, especially given that we know you ] have a previously declared bias in being able to sell some sort of ] installer for money and would clearly wish to kill any "competition" ] for it, no matter how benign it would be to otherwise include it as an ] option (which is all Nik was saying). You are confusing me with Brett Glass. Yes, I believe that Brett should have been permitted to do his thing, and replace the installer. I personally would have liked to see a "Soft Updates" style license, where Brett would sell for a year, and then the code would revert to a simple BSD license. ] Whether you personally find any merit in sysinstall or not, and I'm ] often among the first to point out its many shortcomings, trying to ] kill it off for business reasons is just as obnoxious and ] Microsoft-ish as trying to kill off, say, RAID support because you ] just so happen to have a proprietary RAID solution you'd prefer users ] to use instead. Yeesh! Talk about a complete and total failure to ] get what FreeBSD is all about! I really have to wonder why you ] continue to hover around the community like a horsefly, year after ] year, without contributing anything but complaints about how things ] should be remoulded in your own image... It's a crock, Terry, and ] it stinks like a porta-potty in Texas at high noon. Yeah, pull the other one. PS: Speaking of RAID I'm the one who provided the patches that made the user space version of RAIDFrame run on FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 7:11:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 253D737B406; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15JyE8-000DSe-00; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:11:00 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f6AEAxq52225; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:10:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:10:59 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD" X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no>; from eivind@FreeBSD.org on Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:02:55PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=mutt-dogma-51951-3 On Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:02:55PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: Great information, thanks! | Either Microsoft make something that all potential BSD developers are happy | with (and if they do, more power to them!) or development will continue. | Microsoft can only derive from our code, not take it away from us. Good point. I'm tired of hearing this word 'steal' when applied to the BSD license. The GPL 'steals' back from the programmer, so what is the difference? | among easily excitable people, Linux attracts more easily excitable people, Well, that is for sure! | > GPL license makes it very hard and cost inefficient to produce a proprietary | > version with locked-in features and customers. GPL license *encourages* | > developers to contribute to the commons, because they can be safe in the | > knowledge that their competitor is not easily going to use this against | > them, nor could a competitor create an incompatible and secret fork (other | > than for internal use). | | This is only true if the developers are basically paranoids that will only | program if they can be sure of not being in some mythical fashion "exploited". | | This may be true of a large number of Linux developers, but the rest of us | basically program for at least one out of three reasons: | (1) It is fun | (2) It solves annoyances in our everyday world or in the programs we are using | (3) We get paid for it | | These reasons do not get away just because a larger amount of entities get | benefit from our code. More good points.... | More emotionally laden nonsense. There are a bunch of reasons to contribute | changes back to the open source projects: | (1) You get much less integration work when you want to utilize newer version | of the open source project. Basically, the changes you have now made | maintain themselves WRT the open source project for free, rather than | needing more care. That's one I never thought of or hear stated in that way. | (2) You get a bunch of experts from various areas testing, reviewing and | debugging your code. This has a large relevance on getting increased | quality. | | (3) You get external goodwill. This makes the panel of experts willing help | even when it is with things that are not directly relevant for them. | | (4) You get internal goodwill. Employees are more happy, and you get an | easier time recruiting the people that are experienced with the codebase | you work with. | | (5) You can create a de-facto standard, as people can use your code directly | whether they develop a proprietary product or a free one. | > None of this crap is possible with GPL. | | And what is the result? A completely separate codebase, where there is no | possibility of the companies contributing to the free codebase, as the | companies are working on a totally unrelated codebase. It really shows that the GPL fanatics are just emotionally charged up over the issue. No one likes bully monopolies, but getting angry and using a different oppressive license in return sure doesn't solve any problems. | The choice of a BSD vs GPL license is far from always based on trust in people | not wanting to exploit the codebase. The choice is based on an analysis of | what we think result in the maximum amount of contributions and in our own | maximum benefit from the contributions we do. | | > Just because a thing like apache did not get seriously forked is no | > indication that it cannot ever happen. Why take risk? Why use the | > economical lever, when the legal lever is much more direct and more powerful | > in this case? | | Because we see benefits in properitary extensions. When somebody use our | codebase in a proprietary environment, they are working on the codebase. This | means they likely will be producing beneficial changes to the codebase. These | changes come in two forms - strategic changes, that are sellable and part of | added value, and tactical changes, that have value as levers for creating the | strategic changes, but no intrisic competitive advantage. The latter usually | are more plentiful than the former, and have larger value when given back to | the community (buying goodwill) than when kept proprietary (costing money to | maintain). Could you give an example of these 'levers' ? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. --HlL+5n6rz5pIUxbD-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 9: 0:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vega.dmnshq.net (vega.dmnshq.net [194.19.34.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 90AF737B409 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@vega.dmnshq.net) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by vega.dmnshq.net (8.11.4/8.9.3) id f6AFw1977588; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:58:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:58:00 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:10:59PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:10:59PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > | More emotionally laden nonsense. There are a bunch of reasons to contribute > | changes back to the open source projects: > | (1) You get much less integration work when you want to utilize newer version > | of the open source project. Basically, the changes you have now made > | maintain themselves WRT the open source project for free, rather than > | needing more care. > > That's one I never thought of or hear stated in that way. Weird. It's more or less the canonical argument for why contribute back to BSD-licensed projects. We obviously need a FAQ or good paper about this. > | > Just because a thing like apache did not get seriously forked is no > | > indication that it cannot ever happen. Why take risk? Why use the > | > economical lever, when the legal lever is much more direct and more powerful > | > in this case? > | > | Because we see benefits in properitary extensions. When somebody use our > | codebase in a proprietary environment, they are working on the codebase. This > | means they likely will be producing beneficial changes to the codebase. These > | changes come in two forms - strategic changes, that are sellable and part of > | added value, and tactical changes, that have value as levers for creating the > | strategic changes, but no intrisic competitive advantage. The latter usually > | are more plentiful than the former, and have larger value when given back to > | the community (buying goodwill) than when kept proprietary (costing money to > | maintain). > > Could you give an example of these 'levers' ? A few examples (tilted in favour of work I've done and contributed back, because that's what's easiest to remember): - netgraph, developed by Whistle and contributed to FreeBSD. This was viewed as strategic for a while, but when the Interjet was developed enough, it was degraded to being viewed as tactical and reasonable to contribute back. - The CAM code in FreeBSD, developed by Plutotech for their embedded video editing system and contributed back. This is the present basis for the FreeBSD SCSI subsystem. - The original PnP support for the ed driver, developed by Yours Truly for Yes interactive and donated back to FreeBSD. This also contained a simple but significant bug (one line difference) that was found by Bruce Evans after it was contributed back (thus demonstrating the point of getting multiple experts to look at it) - Support in i4b (the FreeBSD ISDN code) for using userland PPP. Developed by Yours Truly for Yes Interactive and contributed back. My work on i4b also avoided the reproduction of a significant bug that used to be present in bisdn (the predecessor to i4b) in i4b. This was a bug I found when making bisdn work for userland PPP, and which had blocked the tty driver there from working properly (instead giving sporadic crashes) through all releases of bisdn, and which I would not have found if I hadn't worked on that code for proprietary use (a week of debugging.) - Support in libalias (the backing library for ppp -nat and natd) for punching minimal holes in an ipfw firewall for active protocols (ftp, irc dcc). Developed by me for Yes Interactive, and contributed back. - A lot of the VM system work done by John Dyson for FreeBSD was sponsored by Network Computers (a subsidary of Oracle) because they needed a better VM system for the servers they used for the NCs. And that's just a sample. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 9:22: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6F4D37B409; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:21:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.143.76.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.143.76]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28674; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B4B2BC2.2E625A32@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:22:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Ted Mittelstaedt , Eric Wayte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral References: <000701c10452$ca818600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B4560DD.428634F8@softweyr.com> <20010706092541.C23117@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3B49E58D.5EDDDA2A@mindspring.com> <20010709231626.B16152@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton wrote: > It's reasonable to want to control what get's called FreeBSD. I never said it wasn't; I would just like to draw the line on the far side of sysinstall being what shows up first thing when you boot from a CDROM. > The intent here is not to prevent third party installers -- > they can be open source, closed source, or whatever mix you > want. If you want to produce a commercial distribution of > FreeBSD that does not use sysinstall as the default > installation mechanism then go right ahead, make it the > default, have it come up automatically when your customers > boot from CD, and so on. > > However, if you want to call it FreeBSD, then, somewhere, > sysinstall (and whatever replaces it) must be available. > Put it on "boot-legacy.flp" if you want, and strongly urge > your customers not to use it. But make it available to > those that want it. This is amazingly more reasonable than previous posts, which have all suggested that it must be possible to boot the CDROM to sysinstall. Effectively, doing so would require that sysinstall take the front seat, and that you put another text menu entry on it to pick your installer. > Then I can make sure that the Handbook chapter on installation says, > right at the beginning: I also understand the documentation issue. Look, I've been programming professionally for ~22 years now, and I didn't just step off the turnup truck: you'll find my code in BSD all the way back to when I wrote the FAQ and patchkit for 386BSD 0.1. I know what professional software developement, and consistency in presentation to the user means for a product. ...Please look at it from the perspective of someone willing to work on improving the initial impression that FreeBSD leaves in a user's mind: FreeBSD is behind in the game from the start, since PCs come installed with Windows, and without a seperate partition that can be easily and immediately usable by a third party OS. It drops further behind because of the difficulty of transferring experience over to using the FreeBSD tools from people who have been trained up in the Windows style guide. I think that any attempt to make the initial experience less painful will require a lot of work, and the ability to license "Partittion Magic" or a similar tool, right out of the box, and have it be the first thing people see (or, preferrably, have it be one of the things that people see, as seamlessly integrated into the overall look and feel of the installation process as possible). The "Partition Magic for FreeBSD" isn't going to happen without $$$ being involved, I think. Walnut Creek sold a FreeBSD package that included one that ran under Windows. But the barrier to entry is still too high to be able to capture a reasonable mindshare. I _personally_ do not want to build such a distribution; I think it would open up whoever did that to extreme friction with the FreeBSD project: Hell, even the mere act of contemplating such a thing has practically set off a firestorm. No Thanks! I'll work on the periphery problems, hopefully enabling someone else to do the deed. Frankly, I don't see much of this work happening, unless there is at worst nose-thumbing ande grudging cooperation from the project. As Jordan says: Walnut Creek CDROM is dead; someone has to take up the mantle -- but not me... not today. There are too many people looking for a back to stick arrows into, and I'm happy to let the indians focus their scalping on Wind River Systems for now. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 9:31:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D21737B405; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15K0Pa-000G3r-00; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:30:58 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f6AGUSL53864; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:30:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:30:27 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710173027.A53776@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org>; from eivind@FreeBSD.org on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:58:00PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | - The CAM code in FreeBSD, developed by Plutotech for their embedded video | editing system and contributed back. This is the present basis for the | FreeBSD SCSI subsystem. I had heard FreeBSD has been used in some video post-production software, but it doesn't seem to get much publicity. I wonder why not? And why can't BSD be used as a platform for a really good audio editing application, like CakeWalk is for Win32? | - The original PnP support for the ed driver, developed by Yours Truly for Yes | interactive and donated back to FreeBSD. This also contained a simple but So these companies don't care that after paying a consultant to do the work, the result is effectively given away? Or do they just want a solution for a problem, and don't care about the code itself? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 9:46:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vega.dmnshq.net (vega.dmnshq.net [194.19.34.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4E6437B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 09:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@vega.dmnshq.net) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by vega.dmnshq.net (8.11.4/8.9.3) id f6AGiJA78854; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:44:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from eivind) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:44:19 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710184419.C77023@FreeBSD.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> <20010710173027.A53776@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010710173027.A53776@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:30:27PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:30:27PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > | - The CAM code in FreeBSD, developed by Plutotech for their embedded video > | editing system and contributed back. This is the present basis for the > | FreeBSD SCSI subsystem. > > I had heard FreeBSD has been used in some video post-production software, > but it doesn't seem to get much publicity. I wonder why not? Too far away from what people associate with BSD, I think - and as I said, it is an embedded system. > And why can't BSD be used as a platform for a really good audio editing > application, like CakeWalk is for Win32? It probably can, but the real time issues might make some problems. To be commercially viable, I think the most likely path would be an embedded system based on FreeBSD. Otherwise, we have to look to Open Source. > | - The original PnP support for the ed driver, developed by Yours Truly for Yes > | interactive and donated back to FreeBSD. This also contained a simple but > > So these companies don't care that after paying a consultant to do the work, > the result is effectively given away? Or do they just want a solution for a > problem, and don't care about the code itself? Well, I specifically didn't list companies that just wanted a regular enhancement for the OS for internal use, but kept to companies that have developed proprietary derivates of FreeBSD. All the examples I gave were from companies that did development due to the BSD license allowing them to create proprietary derivates, and most likely would not have done the development if they had to give all their changes back. All the enhancements were (as far as I know) developed by programmers that were full time employees of the respective companies, and were contributed back to FreeBSD because it was seen as giving an economical advantage. There are also companies getting features developed in order to just have the utility value available, similar to what is possible with Linux. One example of such development is the jail code, which was developed by phk working as a consultant. Another is the PAM code in SSH in FreeBSD, which was partially developed and partially ported by me while I worked as a consultant for Enitel. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 22: 5: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D092937B401 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id AAA137092593 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:04:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA24347; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:05:38 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Don Wilde Cc: Gilbert Gong , Ted Mittelstaedt , j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:14:15AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't such a big part of the name. Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a cinder block, and just about as sexy. Whether that is a good thing, in the face of something as hard to pin down as the meaning of GNU & GPL, is a question no one person could never answer. (?) "Can I use FreeBSD? I thought it was only for the UC schools." "FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" [RC] On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:14:15AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > >A few other points.. > > > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a lot of money > > to > > > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). As much as > >[snip] > > > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the > > > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. > > > Well said, Ted. Regardless of whether one believes the Christian story, > you are talking about the essence of humanity as a common species. > > [snip] > > [stuff cut] > > > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future > > > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. > > > > Hm, didn't notice that ;) > > > Most of Bill Gates' contributions are not cash, they are copies of Doze > and Word. > > There's an earlier example that's applicable. Andrew Carnegie was a > ruthless bastard in his youth, but many people said he had a change of > heart when he started being philanthropic. In actuality, his endowments > of Jesuit teachers' colleges and other educational institutions -- > before there was ANY other alternative -- have done more to create the > modern dependency training factories (aka 'public schools') that we > (Americans) all pay for. He (and J.P.Morgan, Henry Ford, and > Rockefeller, Sr.) realized that they could not build their industrial > empires if they could not guarantee that people would be gullible enough > to buy their products and scared and dependent enough to accept the jobs > and working conditions that they offered. We see now the results of 6 > generations of public schooling, and it's very telling that modern > schools spend more time concerned with nail files, pictures of army men, > and masturbation training than they do with anthropology and economics > and our Constitution. > > Relating this back to advocacy [:-)], there's another educational > example that applies. In 1970, Ed Nagel founded the Santa Fe Community > School here in New Mexico. It's one of what are called 'free schools', > whose philosophy is that kids learn best when they follow their > interests. He has been villified and hounded by the Board of Education > and the NM State establishment for 30 years, including trumped-up > lawsuits, smears, and invasions by jackbooted thugs. > > Here's a comment from him in a recent letter: > > < over again.>> > Not really: "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." The War is > never over; only the battlefields change (and the troops). > > My point is that here again the right of parents to educate their > children as they see fit is again under fire, this time on a national > level. The Party (As Ted says, there is only one two-headed monster) has > given us an 'education reform' bill that's the worst of both sides' > proposals, and the only thing it will accomplish is to solidify even > further the centralized control of power. > > As believers in the Cause that we the people can create and maintain a > common base of software that is beyond the control of government or > economic power, we must realize that we will constantly be under > assault. "The War is never over..." and the weapons constantly change as > well as the battlefields and troops. Each of us holds the torch of > FreeBSD in our hearts (sorry, getting mushy!), and each has the right to > speak his/her convictions. More than that, we _each_ have the moral > obligation to speak and live our convictions. I'm glad we don't have a > Linus or a Stallman. I'm glad (as well as saddened) that Jordan is > moving on, because he was the one the media were looking to to speak for > us. > > The reality is that FreeBSD is worthy precisely because it is a > collection of many individuals who cooperate to make it happen. The > media can't stand that, because we're not entertaining and that's all > they live for any more. That doesn't make us unworthy. I'm glad > Microsoft is noticing us; they even spelled our name right. FreeBSD is a > lot like the Libertarian Party. Nader and Buchanan got a lot of press, > but Libertarians have more and more people on the ballot every year, and > we're the ones who scare the GOP the most because we are building from a > solid base of committed activists... just like FreeBSD. > > FreeBSD is surviving and growing because it works and because the > project model works. I'm not a core team coder, but I buy CDs and > DaemonNews and I'm using FreeBSD and Apache to build my business to the > point where I can support someone who _is_ a core team coder someday. We > all play our little part, and all of our enlightened self-interests > together move the project forward in the ways that we all benefit the > most. > > That's how life SHOULD be. > -- > Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com > Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects > 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 > 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jul 10 22:19:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C7837B403 for ; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f6B5Gil58043; Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:16:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Robert Clark" , "Don Wilde" Cc: "Gilbert Gong" , "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 22:16:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c109c8$ac006220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The average person barely understands how software works to begin with, and has had 40 years of IBM and Microsoft pounding away at how the software market is supposed to operate. That's a lot to overcome. I think that the Berkely tie probably doesen't even register on the radarscope of most people that are in the business. Consider that the college-aged kid today was born in 1980, nearly 2 decades after Berkely's name was a household word during the LSD years of the 60's. Your showing your age, Robert. (It makes me feel old too!) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark >Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:06 PM >To: Don Wilde >Cc: Gilbert Gong; Ted Mittelstaedt; j mckitrick; >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > > >Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the >concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't >such a big part of the name. > >Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to >do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a >cinder block, and just about as sexy. > >Whether that is a good thing, in the face of something as hard >to pin down as the meaning of GNU & GPL, is a question no one >person could never answer. (?) > >"Can I use FreeBSD? I thought it was only for the UC schools." > >"FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" > > >[RC] > > > > >On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:14:15AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: >> >> > > >A few other points.. >> > > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a >lot of money >> > to >> > > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). > As much as >> >[snip] >> > > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the >> > > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. >> > >> Well said, Ted. Regardless of whether one believes the Christian story, >> you are talking about the essence of humanity as a common species. >> >> [snip] >> > [stuff cut] >> > > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future >> > > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. >> > >> > Hm, didn't notice that ;) >> > >> Most of Bill Gates' contributions are not cash, they are copies of Doze >> and Word. >> >> There's an earlier example that's applicable. Andrew Carnegie was a >> ruthless bastard in his youth, but many people said he had a change of >> heart when he started being philanthropic. In actuality, his endowments >> of Jesuit teachers' colleges and other educational institutions -- >> before there was ANY other alternative -- have done more to create the >> modern dependency training factories (aka 'public schools') that we >> (Americans) all pay for. He (and J.P.Morgan, Henry Ford, and >> Rockefeller, Sr.) realized that they could not build their industrial >> empires if they could not guarantee that people would be gullible enough >> to buy their products and scared and dependent enough to accept the jobs >> and working conditions that they offered. We see now the results of 6 >> generations of public schooling, and it's very telling that modern >> schools spend more time concerned with nail files, pictures of army men, >> and masturbation training than they do with anthropology and economics >> and our Constitution. >> >> Relating this back to advocacy [:-)], there's another educational >> example that applies. In 1970, Ed Nagel founded the Santa Fe Community >> School here in New Mexico. It's one of what are called 'free schools', >> whose philosophy is that kids learn best when they follow their >> interests. He has been villified and hounded by the Board of Education >> and the NM State establishment for 30 years, including trumped-up >> lawsuits, smears, and invasions by jackbooted thugs. >> >> Here's a comment from him in a recent letter: >> >> <> over again.>> >> Not really: "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." The War is >> never over; only the battlefields change (and the troops). >> >> My point is that here again the right of parents to educate their >> children as they see fit is again under fire, this time on a national >> level. The Party (As Ted says, there is only one two-headed monster) has >> given us an 'education reform' bill that's the worst of both sides' >> proposals, and the only thing it will accomplish is to solidify even >> further the centralized control of power. >> >> As believers in the Cause that we the people can create and maintain a >> common base of software that is beyond the control of government or >> economic power, we must realize that we will constantly be under >> assault. "The War is never over..." and the weapons constantly change as >> well as the battlefields and troops. Each of us holds the torch of >> FreeBSD in our hearts (sorry, getting mushy!), and each has the right to >> speak his/her convictions. More than that, we _each_ have the moral >> obligation to speak and live our convictions. I'm glad we don't have a >> Linus or a Stallman. I'm glad (as well as saddened) that Jordan is >> moving on, because he was the one the media were looking to to speak for >> us. >> >> The reality is that FreeBSD is worthy precisely because it is a >> collection of many individuals who cooperate to make it happen. The >> media can't stand that, because we're not entertaining and that's all >> they live for any more. That doesn't make us unworthy. I'm glad >> Microsoft is noticing us; they even spelled our name right. FreeBSD is a >> lot like the Libertarian Party. Nader and Buchanan got a lot of press, >> but Libertarians have more and more people on the ballot every year, and >> we're the ones who scare the GOP the most because we are building from a >> solid base of committed activists... just like FreeBSD. >> >> FreeBSD is surviving and growing because it works and because the >> project model works. I'm not a core team coder, but I buy CDs and >> DaemonNews and I'm using FreeBSD and Apache to build my business to the >> point where I can support someone who _is_ a core team coder someday. We >> all play our little part, and all of our enlightened self-interests >> together move the project forward in the ways that we all benefit the >> most. >> >> That's how life SHOULD be. >> -- >> Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com >> Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects >> 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 >> 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 1:34:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B68C37B403; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 01:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=d7c409c2860e2391302635e4860f1dc7) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15KFXj-0000QF-00; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:40:23 -0600 Message-ID: <3B4C10F7.7CBDB859@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:40:23 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:10:59PM +0100, j mckitrick wrote: > > | More emotionally laden nonsense. There are a bunch of reasons to contribute > > | changes back to the open source projects: > > | (1) You get much less integration work when you want to utilize newer version > > | of the open source project. Basically, the changes you have now made > > | maintain themselves WRT the open source project for free, rather than > > | needing more care. > > > > That's one I never thought of or hear stated in that way. > > Weird. It's more or less the canonical argument for why contribute back to > BSD-licensed projects. We obviously need a FAQ or good paper about this. I've heard it referred to as the theory (or doctrine) of enlightened self- interest. What we need is a really good article (mandatory plug: Daemon News) on the advantages of the BSD license. > > Could you give an example of these 'levers' ? > > A few examples (tilted in favour of work I've done and contributed back, > because that's what's easiest to remember): > > - netgraph, developed by Whistle and contributed to FreeBSD. This was viewed > as strategic for a while, but when the Interjet was developed enough, it was > degraded to being viewed as tactical and reasonable to contribute back. > > - The CAM code in FreeBSD, developed by Plutotech for their embedded video > editing system and contributed back. This is the present basis for the > FreeBSD SCSI subsystem. > > - The original PnP support for the ed driver, developed by Yours Truly for Yes > interactive and donated back to FreeBSD. This also contained a simple but > significant bug (one line difference) that was found by Bruce Evans after it > was contributed back (thus demonstrating the point of getting multiple > experts to look at it) > > - Support in i4b (the FreeBSD ISDN code) for using userland PPP. Developed by > Yours Truly for Yes Interactive and contributed back. My work on i4b also > avoided the reproduction of a significant bug that used to be present in > bisdn (the predecessor to i4b) in i4b. This was a bug I found when making > bisdn work for userland PPP, and which had blocked the tty driver there from > working properly (instead giving sporadic crashes) through all releases of > bisdn, and which I would not have found if I hadn't worked on that code for > proprietary use (a week of debugging.) > > - Support in libalias (the backing library for ppp -nat and natd) for punching > minimal holes in an ipfw firewall for active protocols (ftp, irc dcc). > Developed by me for Yes Interactive, and contributed back. > > - A lot of the VM system work done by John Dyson for FreeBSD was sponsored by > Network Computers (a subsidary of Oracle) because they needed a better VM > system for the servers they used for the NCs. > > And that's just a sample. What an excellent starting point. A few obvious other ones leap to my mind, including Kirk's softupdates code, Grog's vinum volume manager, and a lot of the VM work contributed by Matt Dillon in the search for more performance for his applications. I'll really look forward to reading that article, Eivind. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 2: 6: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C3B37B403 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 02:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f6B95qm01405 ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA95263 ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 11:05:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Robert Clark Cc: Don Wilde , Gilbert Gong , Ted Mittelstaedt , j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010711110551.C93534@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Clark , Don Wilde , Gilbert Gong , Ted Mittelstaedt , j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:05:38PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Clark said on Jul 10, 2001 at 22:05:38: > > Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the > concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't > such a big part of the name. > > Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to > do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a > cinder block, and just about as sexy. I know at least one person who knew nothing of BSD but was impressed by the Berkeley connection. His main Sun hard drive had died, and though the other drive was working, he couldn't boot the machine. I installed NetBSD on the other drive, and even got his Sun binaries (like Mathematica) to work again (with a bit of help from the NetBSD lists). On seeing the boot-up messages he said "Oh, this stuff was done at Berkeley?" So I gave a short history of BSD. He was more than happy with the performance: he thought it felt faster than his old SunOS. (This was an ancient machine which was probably slower than a 486, but it worked and it had a nice monitor, so he didn't want to get rid of it.) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 4:27: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A99137B401; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15KI8q-0006Xz-00; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:26:52 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f6BBQp662930; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:26:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:26:50 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Wes Peters Cc: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010711122650.A62765@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> <3B4C10F7.7CBDB859@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3B4C10F7.7CBDB859@softweyr.com>; from wes@softweyr.com on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:40:23AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | I've heard it referred to as the theory (or doctrine) of enlightened self- | interest. What we need is a really good article (mandatory plug: Daemon News) | on the advantages of the BSD license. Definitely. | What an excellent starting point. A few obvious other ones leap to my mind, | including Kirk's softupdates code, Grog's vinum volume manager, and a lot | of the VM work contributed by Matt Dillon in the search for more performance I thought maybe these were just because the users/programmers also happen to be FreeBSD supporters, or that maybe they were the exception to the rule. What is the likelihood that for every 'give back' we get, there are 3 other great modifications that are kept locked away somewhere? | for his applications. I'll really look forward to reading that article, | Eivind. ;^) He's got my vote. :-) Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 4:47:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E60237B405; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 04:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f6BBlnm16505 ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:47:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA01830 ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:47:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:47:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: Wes Peters , Eivind Eklund , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010711134749.F93534@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , Wes Peters , Eivind Eklund , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010630174743.A85268@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010707160255.A18525@thinksec.no> <20010710151059.A52201@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20010710175800.A77023@FreeBSD.org> <3B4C10F7.7CBDB859@softweyr.com> <20010711122650.A62765@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010711122650.A62765@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:26:50PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG j mckitrick said on Jul 11, 2001 at 12:26:50: > | What an excellent starting point. A few obvious other ones leap to my mind, > | including Kirk's softupdates code, Grog's vinum volume manager, and a lot > | of the VM work contributed by Matt Dillon in the search for more performance > > I thought maybe these were just because the users/programmers also happen > to be FreeBSD supporters, or that maybe they were the exception to the rule. > > What is the likelihood that for every 'give back' we get, there are 3 other > great modifications that are kept locked away somewhere? Quite likely. But if it's truly useful, either it will be unlocked because of the earlier "enlightened self interest" argument, or someone will reproduce it... In practice the GPL doesn't always help you get these "great modifications" back either. First, if it's a private modification being used internally, there's no obligation to give it back. Second, as many have pointed out, it's rather hard to know when GPL code has been "stolen" and used in a commercial product. Third, even if the modifications are returned to the community under the GPL, the project leaders may not be interested. Examples: for various reasons RMS didn't want to accept the XEmacs changes. SGI has made various contributions to the linux kernel many of which never made it to the official version because they conflicted with Linus's world-view in some way. See http://oss.sgi.com/projects/ and http://oss.sgi.com/projects/sgilinux-combined/download/1.0-patches/ R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 10:22:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034CF37B403 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:22:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.46.72]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA4DF3; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:29:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3B4C8B5C.E4AE67DE@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:22:36 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Clark Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Clark wrote: > > Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the > concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't > such a big part of the name. I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it. Do people associate Linux with saunas? Windows with espresso? > Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to > do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a > cinder block, and just about as sexy. But that has nothing to do with my image of FreeBSD. Berkeley is much more than Telegraph Avenue, assigned areas for free speech, and perpetual students. I also envision one of the finest graduate schools in the world, home of Lawrence-Livermore labs, and the guys that brought us BSD. And it's also home to the finest Sake brewery outside of Japan. > "FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" My first experience with BSD was at UCSD! I was learning UCSD Pascal at the time. Oh gee, I'm dating myself again... David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 18:12: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35DF37B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA141733516 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26849; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:12:44 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: David Johnson Cc: Robert Clark , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010711181244.A26794@darkstar.gte.net> References: <001401c1039e$b0327f20$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <001301c103ab$928400e0$2a5fa640@ggongw2k> <3B41D337.964D3C1A@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> <3B4C8B5C.E4AE67DE@acuson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <3B4C8B5C.E4AE67DE@acuson.com>; from djohnson@acuson.com on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:22:36AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry everyone, I was tired when I wrote that email, and it didn't come out right. I like Berkely as a concept. I haven't been there enough to have more of a feel than that. (I don't harbor any ill will of any kind towards the school. I even wanted to go there at one point.) I was just wondering out loud, if FreeBSD would sell better with a more lightweight and less architectural name. Maybe more visibility would attract the wrong crowd though. But thanks for the response. [RC] On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:22:36AM -0700, David Johnson wrote: > Robert Clark wrote: > > > > Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the > > concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't > > such a big part of the name. > > I seriously doubt that has anything to do with it. Do people associate > Linux with saunas? Windows with espresso? > > > Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to > > do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a > > cinder block, and just about as sexy. > > But that has nothing to do with my image of FreeBSD. Berkeley is much > more than Telegraph Avenue, assigned areas for free speech, and > perpetual students. I also envision one of the finest graduate schools > in the world, home of Lawrence-Livermore labs, and the guys that brought > us BSD. And it's also home to the finest Sake brewery outside of Japan. > > > "FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" > > My first experience with BSD was at UCSD! I was learning UCSD Pascal at > the time. Oh gee, I'm dating myself again... > > David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 18:20:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17CF137B405 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA3194954 Wed, 11 Jul 2001 20:20:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA26890; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:20:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:20:56 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Robert Clark , Don Wilde , Gilbert Gong , j mckitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Message-ID: <20010711182056.C26794@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010710220538.D24198@darkstar.gte.net> <000001c109c8$ac006220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <000001c109c8$ac006220$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:16:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG When I mentioned Regan, were you thinking Governor or President? (I'm not that old!?) Now I'm not going to be able to get the DK songs out of my head. "The akin, breakin, Regan years." Oh no, M.O. too. [RC] On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:16:42PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > The average person barely understands how software works to begin with, > and has had 40 years of IBM and Microsoft pounding away at how the > software market is supposed to operate. That's a lot to overcome. > I think that the Berkely tie probably doesen't even register on the > radarscope of most people that are in the business. > > Consider that the college-aged kid today was born in 1980, nearly > 2 decades after Berkely's name was a household word during the LSD > years of the 60's. Your showing your age, Robert. (It makes me feel old > too!) > > Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com > Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide > Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark > >Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:06 PM > >To: Don Wilde > >Cc: Gilbert Gong; Ted Mittelstaedt; j mckitrick; > >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > > > > > > >Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the > >concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't > >such a big part of the name. > > > >Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to > >do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a > >cinder block, and just about as sexy. > > > >Whether that is a good thing, in the face of something as hard > >to pin down as the meaning of GNU & GPL, is a question no one > >person could never answer. (?) > > > >"Can I use FreeBSD? I thought it was only for the UC schools." > > > >"FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" > > > > > >[RC] > > > > > > > > > >On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:14:15AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > >> > >> > > >A few other points.. > >> > > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a > >lot of money > >> > to > >> > > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). > > As much as > >> >[snip] > >> > > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire being to the > >> > > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the individual. > >> > > >> Well said, Ted. Regardless of whether one believes the Christian story, > >> you are talking about the essence of humanity as a common species. > >> > >> [snip] > >> > [stuff cut] > >> > > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding of future > >> > > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. > >> > > >> > Hm, didn't notice that ;) > >> > > >> Most of Bill Gates' contributions are not cash, they are copies of Doze > >> and Word. > >> > >> There's an earlier example that's applicable. Andrew Carnegie was a > >> ruthless bastard in his youth, but many people said he had a change of > >> heart when he started being philanthropic. In actuality, his endowments > >> of Jesuit teachers' colleges and other educational institutions -- > >> before there was ANY other alternative -- have done more to create the > >> modern dependency training factories (aka 'public schools') that we > >> (Americans) all pay for. He (and J.P.Morgan, Henry Ford, and > >> Rockefeller, Sr.) realized that they could not build their industrial > >> empires if they could not guarantee that people would be gullible enough > >> to buy their products and scared and dependent enough to accept the jobs > >> and working conditions that they offered. We see now the results of 6 > >> generations of public schooling, and it's very telling that modern > >> schools spend more time concerned with nail files, pictures of army men, > >> and masturbation training than they do with anthropology and economics > >> and our Constitution. > >> > >> Relating this back to advocacy [:-)], there's another educational > >> example that applies. In 1970, Ed Nagel founded the Santa Fe Community > >> School here in New Mexico. It's one of what are called 'free schools', > >> whose philosophy is that kids learn best when they follow their > >> interests. He has been villified and hounded by the Board of Education > >> and the NM State establishment for 30 years, including trumped-up > >> lawsuits, smears, and invasions by jackbooted thugs. > >> > >> Here's a comment from him in a recent letter: > >> > >> < >> over again.>> > >> Not really: "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." The War is > >> never over; only the battlefields change (and the troops). > >> > >> My point is that here again the right of parents to educate their > >> children as they see fit is again under fire, this time on a national > >> level. The Party (As Ted says, there is only one two-headed monster) has > >> given us an 'education reform' bill that's the worst of both sides' > >> proposals, and the only thing it will accomplish is to solidify even > >> further the centralized control of power. > >> > >> As believers in the Cause that we the people can create and maintain a > >> common base of software that is beyond the control of government or > >> economic power, we must realize that we will constantly be under > >> assault. "The War is never over..." and the weapons constantly change as > >> well as the battlefields and troops. Each of us holds the torch of > >> FreeBSD in our hearts (sorry, getting mushy!), and each has the right to > >> speak his/her convictions. More than that, we _each_ have the moral > >> obligation to speak and live our convictions. I'm glad we don't have a > >> Linus or a Stallman. I'm glad (as well as saddened) that Jordan is > >> moving on, because he was the one the media were looking to to speak for > >> us. > >> > >> The reality is that FreeBSD is worthy precisely because it is a > >> collection of many individuals who cooperate to make it happen. The > >> media can't stand that, because we're not entertaining and that's all > >> they live for any more. That doesn't make us unworthy. I'm glad > >> Microsoft is noticing us; they even spelled our name right. FreeBSD is a > >> lot like the Libertarian Party. Nader and Buchanan got a lot of press, > >> but Libertarians have more and more people on the ballot every year, and > >> we're the ones who scare the GOP the most because we are building from a > >> solid base of committed activists... just like FreeBSD. > >> > >> FreeBSD is surviving and growing because it works and because the > >> project model works. I'm not a core team coder, but I buy CDs and > >> DaemonNews and I'm using FreeBSD and Apache to build my business to the > >> point where I can support someone who _is_ a core team coder someday. We > >> all play our little part, and all of our enlightened self-interests > >> together move the project forward in the ways that we all benefit the > >> most. > >> > >> That's how life SHOULD be. > >> -- > >> Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com > >> Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects > >> 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 > >> 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jul 11 22:28:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D3437B401 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:28:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f6C5PZl61454; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:25:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Robert Clark" Cc: "Don Wilde" , "Gilbert Gong" , "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:25:33 -0700 Message-ID: <004101c10a93$12c42800$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20010711182056.C26794@darkstar.gte.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm too young for him as a Governor and definitely for him as a movie star. I have 2 associations for you though: Remember the kids spraypainting "RayGun" all over the place? Then later the "Trust Jesus" (although that was a PDX phenom) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert Clark [mailto:res03db2@gte.net] >Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:21 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Robert Clark; Don Wilde; Gilbert Gong; j mckitrick; >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? > > > >When I mentioned Regan, were you thinking Governor or President? > >(I'm not that old!?) > >Now I'm not going to be able to get the DK songs out of my head. > >"The akin, breakin, Regan years." Oh no, M.O. too. > >[RC] > >On Tue, Jul 10, 2001 at 10:16:42PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> The average person barely understands how software works to begin with, >> and has had 40 years of IBM and Microsoft pounding away at how the >> software market is supposed to operate. That's a lot to overcome. >> I think that the Berkely tie probably doesen't even register on the >> radarscope of most people that are in the business. >> >> Consider that the college-aged kid today was born in 1980, nearly >> 2 decades after Berkely's name was a household word during the LSD >> years of the 60's. Your showing your age, Robert. (It makes me feel old >> too!) >> >> Ted Mittelstaedt >tedm@toybox.placo.com >> Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate >Networker's Guide >> Book website: >http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >> >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark >> >Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 10:06 PM >> >To: Don Wilde >> >Cc: Gilbert Gong; Ted Mittelstaedt; j mckitrick; >> >freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> >Subject: Re: BSD, .Net comments - any reponse to this reasoning? >> > >> > >> > >> >Would people have an easier time fitting their minds around the >> >concepts inherent in FreeBSD, if Berkely/UC/California wasn't >> >such a big part of the name. >> > >> >Maybe having lived in CA during the Regan era has something to >> >do with it for me, but BSD makes a mental image as solid as a >> >cinder block, and just about as sexy. >> > >> >Whether that is a good thing, in the face of something as hard >> >to pin down as the meaning of GNU & GPL, is a question no one >> >person could never answer. (?) >> > >> >"Can I use FreeBSD? I thought it was only for the UC schools." >> > >> >"FreeBSD, is that like UCSD Pascal?" >> > >> > >> >[RC] >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >On Tue, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:14:15AM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: >> >> >> >> > > >A few other points.. >> >> > > >1) I hesitate to defend Bill Gates, but the man has given a >> >lot of money >> >> > to >> >> > > >charity (and I mean a lot, even considering how much he has). >> > As much as >> >> >[snip] >> >> > > lives, it's only when an individual devotes their entire >being to the >> >> > > gift that it truly indicates a striving to touch God in the >individual. >> >> > >> >> Well said, Ted. Regardless of whether one believes the Christian story, >> >> you are talking about the essence of humanity as a common species. >> >> >> >> [snip] >> >> > [stuff cut] >> >> > > technology or education into technology. There's a seeding >of future >> >> > > Microsoft sales here that should be obvious. >> >> > >> >> > Hm, didn't notice that ;) >> >> > >> >> Most of Bill Gates' contributions are not cash, they are copies of Doze >> >> and Word. >> >> >> >> There's an earlier example that's applicable. Andrew Carnegie was a >> >> ruthless bastard in his youth, but many people said he had a change of >> >> heart when he started being philanthropic. In actuality, his endowments >> >> of Jesuit teachers' colleges and other educational institutions -- >> >> before there was ANY other alternative -- have done more to create the >> >> modern dependency training factories (aka 'public schools') that we >> >> (Americans) all pay for. He (and J.P.Morgan, Henry Ford, and >> >> Rockefeller, Sr.) realized that they could not build their industrial >> >> empires if they could not guarantee that people would be gullible enough >> >> to buy their products and scared and dependent enough to accept the jobs >> >> and working conditions that they offered. We see now the results of 6 >> >> generations of public schooling, and it's very telling that modern >> >> schools spend more time concerned with nail files, pictures of army men, >> >> and masturbation training than they do with anthropology and economics >> >> and our Constitution. >> >> >> >> Relating this back to advocacy [:-)], there's another educational >> >> example that applies. In 1970, Ed Nagel founded the Santa Fe Community >> >> School here in New Mexico. It's one of what are called 'free schools', >> >> whose philosophy is that kids learn best when they follow their >> >> interests. He has been villified and hounded by the Board of Education >> >> and the NM State establishment for 30 years, including trumped-up >> >> lawsuits, smears, and invasions by jackbooted thugs. >> >> >> >> Here's a comment from him in a recent letter: >> >> >> >> <> >> over again.>> >> >> Not really: "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." The War is >> >> never over; only the battlefields change (and the troops). >> >> >> >> My point is that here again the right of parents to educate their >> >> children as they see fit is again under fire, this time on a national >> >> level. The Party (As Ted says, there is only one two-headed monster) has >> >> given us an 'education reform' bill that's the worst of both sides' >> >> proposals, and the only thing it will accomplish is to solidify even >> >> further the centralized control of power. >> >> >> >> As believers in the Cause that we the people can create and maintain a >> >> common base of software that is beyond the control of government or >> >> economic power, we must realize that we will constantly be under >> >> assault. "The War is never over..." and the weapons constantly change as >> >> well as the battlefields and troops. Each of us holds the torch of >> >> FreeBSD in our hearts (sorry, getting mushy!), and each has the right to >> >> speak his/her convictions. More than that, we _each_ have the moral >> >> obligation to speak and live our convictions. I'm glad we don't have a >> >> Linus or a Stallman. I'm glad (as well as saddened) that Jordan is >> >> moving on, because he was the one the media were looking to to speak for >> >> us. >> >> >> >> The reality is that FreeBSD is worthy precisely because it is a >> >> collection of many individuals who cooperate to make it happen. The >> >> media can't stand that, because we're not entertaining and that's all >> >> they live for any more. That doesn't make us unworthy. I'm glad >> >> Microsoft is noticing us; they even spelled our name right. FreeBSD is a >> >> lot like the Libertarian Party. Nader and Buchanan got a lot of press, >> >> but Libertarians have more and more people on the ballot every year, and >> >> we're the ones who scare the GOP the most because we are building from a >> >> solid base of committed activists... just like FreeBSD. >> >> >> >> FreeBSD is surviving and growing because it works and because the >> >> project model works. I'm not a core team coder, but I buy CDs and >> >> DaemonNews and I'm using FreeBSD and Apache to build my business to the >> >> point where I can support someone who _is_ a core team coder someday. We >> >> all play our little part, and all of our enlightened self-interests >> >> together move the project forward in the ways that we all benefit the >> >> most. >> >> >> >> That's how life SHOULD be. >> >> -- >> >> Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com >> >> Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects >> >> 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 >> >> 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > >> >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message >> > >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 12 12:48: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4A137B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f6CJlxm86919 ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:47:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA72977 ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:47:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 21:47:58 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org>; from bright@sneakerz.org on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:32:05PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [moved to -advocacy] Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 14:32:05: > * Nick Popoff [010712 14:30] wrote: > > > > How about allowing for a pre-scripted installer which would let you > > do unattended installations or upgrades of FreeBSD via a PXE netboot? > > Actually, this is what I did for Google, we were able to have 40 machines > installed in about an hour: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~alfred/pxe/ Google uses FreeBSD now? They're always being advertised as the world's biggest linux shop. Any details -- what are their reasons, what fraction of machines run linux, etc? Should Google be mentioned on http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html? I think if they use FreeBSD in a significant way, it's quite a good advertisement -- it certainly has been for linux. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 12 13:13: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sneakerz.org (sneakerz.org [216.33.66.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6404B37B406 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:13:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@sneakerz.org) Received: by sneakerz.org (Postfix, from userid 1092) id DBB3A5D01F; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:12:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:12:59 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:47:58PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Rahul Siddharthan [010712 14:48] wrote: > [moved to -advocacy] > > Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 14:32:05: > > * Nick Popoff [010712 14:30] wrote: > > > > > > How about allowing for a pre-scripted installer which would let you > > > do unattended installations or upgrades of FreeBSD via a PXE netboot? > > > > Actually, this is what I did for Google, we were able to have 40 machines > > installed in about an hour: > > > > http://people.freebsd.org/~alfred/pxe/ > > Google uses FreeBSD now? They're always being advertised as the > world's biggest linux shop. > > Any details -- what are their reasons, what fraction of machines run > linux, etc? Should Google be mentioned on > http://www.freebsd.org/gallery/cgallery.html? > > I think if they use FreeBSD in a significant way, it's quite a good > advertisement -- it certainly has been for linux. No, they don't run FreeBSD. They were interested in having someone like me or the dozen of other FreeBSD kernel developers to turn to for help as well as the superior debugging features of FreeBSD, that's why I did the setup for them. However in the end they chose to stay with Linux, I don't think much actual evaluation was really done, basically one day someone needed that rack running linnex so they spammed over it. It was fun, but we missed. -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] Ok, who wrote this damn function called '??'? And why do my programs keep crashing in it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 12 13:31:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38FB37B401 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f6CKVOm90347 ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:31:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA74472 ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:31:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 22:31:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org>; from bright@sneakerz.org on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:12:59PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 15:12:59: > > No, they don't run FreeBSD. They were interested in having someone > like me or the dozen of other FreeBSD kernel developers to turn to > for help as well as the superior debugging features of FreeBSD, > that's why I did the setup for them. > > However in the end they chose to stay with Linux, I don't think > much actual evaluation was really done, basically one day someone > needed that rack running linnex so they spammed over it. > > It was fun, but we missed. Ah. Too bad.. Google *is* fast, and pretty reliable, and if they have lots of linux-specific hacks maybe it's not a good idea for them to change. But if they had been FreeBSD to begin with, I wonder whether they'd need 6000 machines... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jul 12 13:55:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sneakerz.org (sneakerz.org [216.33.66.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E3237B403 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@sneakerz.org) Received: by sneakerz.org (Postfix, from userid 1092) id 05E955D010; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:55:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:55:16 -0500 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010712155516.I4589@sneakerz.org> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 10:31:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Rahul Siddharthan [010712 15:31] wrote: > Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 15:12:59: > > > > No, they don't run FreeBSD. They were interested in having someone > > like me or the dozen of other FreeBSD kernel developers to turn to > > for help as well as the superior debugging features of FreeBSD, > > that's why I did the setup for them. > > > > However in the end they chose to stay with Linux, I don't think > > much actual evaluation was really done, basically one day someone > > needed that rack running linnex so they spammed over it. > > > > It was fun, but we missed. > > Ah. Too bad.. > > Google *is* fast, and pretty reliable, and if they have lots of > linux-specific hacks maybe it's not a good idea for them to change. > But if they had been FreeBSD to begin with, I wonder whether > they'd need 6000 machines... they certainly would spend less time scratching thier heads when a machine catches fire (panics, er, i mean "oopes"). :) -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] Ok, who wrote this damn function called '??'? And why do my programs keep crashing in it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jul 13 3:38:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A2137B407 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 03:38:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johann@egenetics.com) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 15L0Jh-000J7v-00; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:37:01 +0200 Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:37:01 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010713123701.E70314@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 10:31:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Rahul Siddharthan on 2001-07-12 (Thu) at 22:31:24 +0200: > > Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 15:12:59: > > > > It was fun, but we missed. > > Ah. Too bad.. > > Google *is* fast, and pretty reliable, and if they have lots of > linux-specific hacks maybe it's not a good idea for them to change. > But if they had been FreeBSD to begin with, I wonder whether > they'd need 6000 machines... How widely is it known that FAST's alltheweb.com search engine runs on FreeBSD? (Is this even still the case? After their recent site redesign I can't find their FAQ file in which this fact used to be mentioned.) Alltheweb used to be my default search engine, but I have to admit that these days even I use Google - their query results are simply structured better. OTOH, alltheweb still has a better (IMO) advanced search interface, and their image search engine returns results that are far more accurate for my money than the recently much-hyped (by /. and others) images.google.com. (Hmm, speaking of alltheweb's redesign, it seems they're catching up with some of the features that made me switch to Google. Intriguing...) -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 7: 7:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kalaid.f2f.com.ua (kalaid.f2f.com.ua [62.149.0.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3604837B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 07:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from never@mail.uic-in.net) Received: from mail.uic-in.net (root@[212.35.189.4]) by kalaid.f2f.com.ua (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f6EE9II49975 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:09:18 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never@mail.uic-in.net) Received: (from never@localhost) by mail.uic-in.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f6EE7P637310 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:07:25 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from never) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:07:25 +0300 From: "Alexandr P. Kovalenko" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Hymn Message-ID: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, people! Don't sure if it is right list for this question, so forgive me if I'm wrong.. Is there any song that is known as FreeBSD hymn? If no, my vote goes for Rammstein "Du Hast" :) -- NEVE-RIPE ICQ: 36925929 http://www.nevermind.kiev.ua/ Powered by caffeine. Made with beer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 7:54:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24EEC37B403 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 07:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alex@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24304; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:54:20 +0200 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f6EEslH95543; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:54:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from alex) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:54:47 +0200 From: Alexander Langer To: "Alexandr P. Kovalenko" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Hymn Message-ID: <20010714165447.A95386@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net>; from never@uic-in.net on Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 05:07:25PM +0300 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Alexandr P. Kovalenko (never@uic-in.net): > If no, my vote goes for Rammstein "Du Hast" :) _Defenitely not_! *sigh* Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 12:32:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FF737B409 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f6EJVst45587; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: never@uic-in.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Hymn In-Reply-To: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net> References: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010714123154C.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:31:54 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 22 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think it's already the theme song for the freebsd-questions mailing list. :) From: "Alexandr P. Kovalenko" Subject: FreeBSD Hymn Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:07:25 +0300 > Hello, people! > > Don't sure if it is right list for this question, so forgive me if I'm wrong.. > > Is there any song that is known as FreeBSD hymn? > If no, my vote goes for Rammstein "Du Hast" :) > > -- > NEVE-RIPE > ICQ: 36925929 http://www.nevermind.kiev.ua/ > Powered by caffeine. Made with beer. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 12:43:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from goku.branchmedia.com (goku.branchmedia.com [216.129.214.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 458C537B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mitayai@branchmedia.com) Received: (from root@localhost) by goku.branchmedia.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f6EJhRI01427 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:43:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mitayai@branchmedia.com) Received: from shadow (shadow.branchmedia.com [216.129.214.38]) by goku.branchmedia.com (8.11.4/8.11.4av) with SMTP id f6EJhLi01419 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:43:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mitayai@branchmedia.com) From: "Mit Rowe" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:42:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-10 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.chilisoft.com/forum/getthread.asp?searchmydate=All&recordnumber=1 5605&curID=15605&mydate=30&threadnumber=6810&threadname=Chili%21Soft+General +Support&threadtopic=ASP+and+FreeBSD&search=yes "ASP and FreeBSD ChiliSoft Tech 04/19/01 At this time FreeBSD is just too unstable for ChiliSoft to support. We are still investigating a release for FreeBSD, but everything is preliminary at this point. I don't see FreeBSD support happening in the near future. Well, not until a stable version is released. -ChiliSoft Tech" I consider this a challenge. How about you? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 13:26:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6A0037B405; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2ivebrs.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.47.124]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25365; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B50AAAE.F92B4A67@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:25:18 -0400 From: Laurence Berland X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: never@uic-in.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Hymn References: <20010714170725.G11861@uic-in.net> <20010714123154C.jkh@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, if anyone in NYC wants an extra ticket to the Rammstein concert Wednesday, I have a spare. I'd be selling for less than what I paid, so you will save 2-3 dollars over ticketmaster... L: Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > I think it's already the theme song for the freebsd-questions mailing > list. :) > > From: "Alexandr P. Kovalenko" > Subject: FreeBSD Hymn > Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:07:25 +0300 > > > Hello, people! > > > > Don't sure if it is right list for this question, so forgive me if I'm wrong.. > > > > Is there any song that is known as FreeBSD hymn? > > If no, my vote goes for Rammstein "Du Hast" :) > > > > -- > > NEVE-RIPE > > ICQ: 36925929 http://www.nevermind.kiev.ua/ > > Powered by caffeine. Made with beer. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland Northwestern '04 stuyman@confusion.net http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence "The world has turned and left me here" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jul 14 20: 6:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6139937B401 for ; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 20:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obituary@dingoblue.net.au) Received: from carcass.au.hartware.com (newax1-094.dialup.optusnet.com.au [198.142.164.94]) by mail005.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f6F36AQ28813; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:06:11 +1000 Received: (from obituary@localhost) by carcass.au.hartware.com (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f6F364M07411; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:06:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from obituary) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:06:04 +1000 From: "Jacob A. Hart" To: Johann Visagie Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Alfred Perlstein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: getting rid of sysinstall Message-ID: <20010715130604.A7370@carcass.au.hartware.com> References: <20010712143205.D4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712214758.S63228@lpt.ens.fr> <20010712151259.E4589@sneakerz.org> <20010712223124.U63228@lpt.ens.fr> <"from rsidd"@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20010713123701.E70314@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010713123701.E70314@fling.sanbi.ac.za>; from johann@egenetics.com on Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 12:37:01PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 12:37:01PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > Rahul Siddharthan on 2001-07-12 (Thu) at 22:31:24 +0200: > > > > Alfred Perlstein said on Jul 12, 2001 at 15:12:59: > > > > > > It was fun, but we missed. > > > > Ah. Too bad.. > > > > Google *is* fast, and pretty reliable, and if they have lots of > > linux-specific hacks maybe it's not a good idea for them to change. > > But if they had been FreeBSD to begin with, I wonder whether > > they'd need 6000 machines... > > How widely is it known that FAST's alltheweb.com search engine runs on > FreeBSD? (Is this even still the case? After their recent site redesign I > can't find their FAQ file in which this fact used to be mentioned.) From http://www.alltheweb.com/help/FAQ_webmaster.html : What platform does AllTheWeb Web Search run on? AllTheWeb Web Search runs on standard, cost-efficient high-performance Dell PowerEdge servers and PowerVault storage subsystems. These servers run the FreeBSD operating system. -- Jacob A. Hart Powered by: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE #0: Tue Jul 10 21:47:14 EST 2001 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message