From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 26 6:59:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from fe070.worldonline.dk (fe070.worldonline.dk [212.54.64.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03D1637B406 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19826 invoked by uid 0); 26 Oct 2001 13:59:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO there) (213.237.101.114) by fe070.worldonline.dk with SMTP; 26 Oct 2001 13:59:28 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Simon L.Nielsen To: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:58:51 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: libh@FreeBSD.org References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> In-Reply-To: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 21 October 2001 05:21, Eric Melville wrote: > The way I see it, the big picture steps for binup are: That looks right. > 1. Extend package framework with middle layer API and system packages To do this we should properly document what the current package system can do, and what would be nice to change when it's is being rewritten anyway. > 2. Work concept of system packages into the FreeBSD tree Could this maybe be done with the current makefiles? I don't know enough about the FreeBSD build system to know that, but from what I have seen it looks like the makefiles contains much of the information needed (program names, program locations and so on). > 3. Create library with basic portupgrade functionality and network protocol > 4. Write applications that use this library to update the system Well it will take a while to do the first to steps, so we should properly worry about these later. > upgrade it with binup, and then return using the source tree without > hassle. This is not trivial, but assumedly could be accomplished by > using the mk makefiles to register system components in the package > database as it installs them. Exactly what kinds of problems to you see if the base system is using packages? I would guess when installing from source the only difference is that you compile the packages yourself? Of course to find a way to give the self compiled version package version numbers might be a bit tricky > Additionally, after the client library is completed, I would like to make > usage of a binup server a valid means of installation for libh. Hmm, I have been reading the document Jordan wrote about libh (http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html), but I don't really know exactly what have been done in libh and how much overlap there is between libh and the reworking of the pacakge system.. - -- /Simon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE72Wwh8kocFXgPTRwRAjwQAJ9djB/zuR00xZNyNk5EvS2KQbTTrACgpy8w /OO8syEdQnntMsnxRAtWI0I= =iPIe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 26 13:59:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205F937B406; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.128.156]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011026205920.TGEC4752.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:59:20 -0400 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F6A192C; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:59:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6E23720ACE; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:59:52 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: "Simon L. Nielsen" Cc: Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/unnNtmY43mpUSKx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --/unnNtmY43mpUSKx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri Oct 26, 2001 at 03:58:51PM +0200, Simon L. Nielsen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 >=20 > On Sunday 21 October 2001 05:21, Eric Melville wrote: >=20 > > 1. Extend package framework with middle layer API and system packages > To do this we should properly document what the current package system ca= n=20 > do, and what would be nice to change when it's is being rewritten anyway. just FYI, the package library *is* being re-written, within the libh project, and I think it's doing fine. It just needs a couple more developpers. :) I think what binup should concentrate on is the client/server paradigm because the package system is already under way. We sure need coders for it though... > > 2. Work concept of system packages into the FreeBSD tree > Could this maybe be done with the current makefiles? I don't know enough= =20 > about the FreeBSD build system to know that, but from what I have seen it= =20 > looks like the makefiles contains much of the information needed (program= =20 > names, program locations and so on). I'm not sure about that. A given "install" might put more stuff that we expect. We probably need pkg-plists. Even if that sucks. > > 3. Create library with basic portupgrade functionality and network prot= ocol libh. a libh package install is already an "upgrade". See the libh mailing list for Alex's first successful upgrade of xv (I think). :) > > 4. Write applications that use this library to update the system > > Well it will take a while to do the first to steps, so we should properly= =20 > worry about these later. FWIW, I'm currently writing a fdisk/disklabel-type editor using libh (I'm at the last phase, edition of mount points, newfs options, etc). Heck, we already have boot floppies! Believe me, we just need to work on libh a bit more. What's heavily missing is documentation, but the developpment framework is there. > > upgrade it with binup, and then return using the source tree without > > hassle. This is not trivial, but assumedly could be accomplished by > > using the mk makefiles to register system components in the package > > database as it installs them. > Exactly what kinds of problems to you see if the base system is using=20 > packages? I would guess when installing from source the only difference i= s=20 > that you compile the packages yourself? Of course to find a way to give t= he=20 > self compiled version package version numbers might be a bit tricky It's the same problem that cd /usr/ports/foo/bar ; make install not detecting a previous version. In the ports system, the package is created *after* install, not before. It would probably be possible to create packages from /usr/obj (or equivalent), and then install these, but the fundamental problem is that: cd /foo/bar ; make install is more efficient than cd /foo/bar ; make package ; pkg_add bar.tgz > > Additionally, after the client library is completed, I would like to ma= ke > > usage of a binup server a valid means of installation for libh. > > Hmm, I have been reading the document Jordan wrote about libh=20 > (http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html), but I don't really know exac= tly=20 > what have been done in libh and how much overlap there is between libh an= d=20 > the reworking of the pacakge system.. libh *is* the rework of the package system, for what I know...=20 What it doesn't cover is the conversion of /usr/src (and /usr/ports!) to use a package scheme. BTW, I think this is necessary, not only for the binup project, but for system integrity. Suppose you have an evil binary "foo" that we discovered a nasty security hole in, and that we disconnected "foo" from the worl build. Suppose you cvsup && make world. The binary is probably going to be left there. :) A. --/unnNtmY43mpUSKx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvZzscACgkQttcWHAnWiGfHYQCgo1ZejoqRrKOBjmEFcE8vMTba klAAoIJvWs77d5RmLD+rB6RT/aAiK8+p =bLBQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/unnNtmY43mpUSKx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 26 14:13:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D00437B403; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7326D59; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:12:54 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:12:54 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: The Anarcat Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:59:52PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:59:52PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > > > 1. Extend package framework with middle layer API and system packages > > To do this we should properly document what the current package system = can=20 > > do, and what would be nice to change when it's is being rewritten anywa= y. >=20 > just FYI, the package library *is* being re-written, within the libh > project, and I think it's doing fine. It just needs a couple more > developpers. :) Does it address the issues that I raised on this list earlier this month, or is it a different kind of thing? Is there a mailing list for libh? =20 Joe --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvZ0dUACgkQXVIcjOaxUBZahQCdFmLL7a1uDD37ar5gclOWfN58 sLsAoNt7OS5yY+X/P9TMbPiXylIZ0m9j =pyLW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ReaqsoxgOBHFXBhH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 26 14:20: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts19.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE3D37B403; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.128.156]) by tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011026212001.GAGP4828.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:20:01 -0400 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440F719D8; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F0DD920ACE; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:20:28 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: Josef Karthauser Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yRA+Bmk8aPhU85Qt" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --yRA+Bmk8aPhU85Qt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri Oct 26, 2001 at 10:12:54PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: >=20 > Does it address the issues that I raised on this list earlier this > month, or is it a different kind of thing? Er... I'm kinda new to the list. Which issues in particular? > Is there a mailing list for libh? Yes. freebsd-libh@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html A. --yRA+Bmk8aPhU85Qt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvZ05oACgkQttcWHAnWiGfXfACgosAEJu15xb9ZjBeHrGZgespK M8QAn01A0beRJSHyGvIK/M5B0fhmQudA =RYSm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yRA+Bmk8aPhU85Qt-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Fri Oct 26 14:30:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E831037B403; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id B5215110; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:30:33 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:30:33 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: The Anarcat Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:20:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:20:28PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > On Fri Oct 26, 2001 at 10:12:54PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > >=20 > > Does it address the issues that I raised on this list earlier this > > month, or is it a different kind of thing? >=20 > Er... I'm kinda new to the list. Which issues in particular? It's a bit brash to tell us what to do if you don't know what we've been talking about isn't it? ;o). Take a look at the mail archives for this month. I'd be interested to know whether libh has considered these things. I thought that libh was just a graphical interface that would allow sysinstall and any package install tools to render to both consoles and x11 with easy and no code changes. Any am wrong? Joe --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvZ1fkACgkQXVIcjOaxUBaAaQCg2Xs6N4rvP1VXpuwM5YsOoWrU nX4An0UChzPw90bt/NSVoMYtkPtPR6vp =kRUb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sat Oct 27 10:17:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E5C37B403; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.128.156]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011027171701.JLGX1976.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org>; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:17:01 -0400 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7F519E5; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EC80E20ACE; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:17:27 -0400 From: The Anarcat To: Josef Karthauser Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri Oct 26, 2001 at 10:30:33PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:20:28PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: > > On Fri Oct 26, 2001 at 10:12:54PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > > >=20 > > > Does it address the issues that I raised on this list earlier this > > > month, or is it a different kind of thing? > >=20 > > Er... I'm kinda new to the list. Which issues in particular? >=20 > It's a bit brash to tell us what to do if you don't know what we've been > talking about isn't it? ;o). You're right, of course. First off, I'm having problems with the mailing list browser... The "current" html archive contains 4 messages, 2 from me. :) I'll check on the ftp site.=20 [note that I do not talk in the name of the libh project, nor do I want to. I just talk as a developper who happen to work on libh right now. :)] Let's see: On Dim oct 14, 2001 at 05:05:15pm -0700, Eric Melville wrote: >=20 > 1. I've heard speculation of an entirely new package framework, that would > include things such as base system components being installed as > packages. Is this anywhere near reality for 5.0-RELEASE, or should it = be > considered a thought that has past? libh is a entirely new package framework. For a extensive description, see: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/libh.html I think libh will be ready for 5.0. Heck, I'm even coding on -stable, right now! For all I know, it might be ready even before 5.0. > 2. Does it make sense for system components to include other components, = or > would managing dependancies within the updater sound like a better pla= n? I'm not sure I understand here, but what I think is that there should be many simple autonomous packages (sendmail, base, kernel, etc). I'm not fully aware of all the current capabilities of the current libh, since I'm working in another area. Alex should be more aware of that (in CC).=20 But, I know that libh follows the sysinstall2.txt stuff. It's available from OP and from the libh CVS repository and seems to be pretty complete. I also encourage people to take a peek at http://openpackages.org/html/pkg_design.php > In the case of the base system being installed as a set of packages it > sounds like a better plan to manage dependancies, whereas with the > current layout of FreeBSD it may make more sense to go the other way. I personnally think the current layout of /usr/src should be changed. :) Packages in there can install whatever they want, anywhere. There is no record of which files get installed. Heck, we're more severe with ports than with our own tree! We should set the example. :) > 3. A means of classifying packages would be desirable to allow, say, the > installation of a system using postfix instead of sendmail. This would > work along the lines of certain packages being grouped, and then exact= ly > one must be selected. This isn't really a question so much as an extra > point to be considered in the first question. Yes. This is an issue that is not really addressed yet, I think. There is the "pseudo-package" concept, similar to Debian's concept of package role (eg mailserver package abstraction).=20 On Mon Oct 15, 2001 at 02:08:34AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > Our current package framework is inadequate. It needs to be > reconstructed with a middle layer API to separate the underlying > database representation from the package tools. Unfortuately the > open-packages people don't appear to have realised this. :(. I'm not sure libh adresses this either. But it could! :) Right now, it assumes a certain file hierarchy, using db3, I think. It could probably be possible to extend this to use any other database system. On Mon Oct 15, 2001 at 02:30:57AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > * Plug new groups of ports in via a plug in module, like the bsdpan > (CPAN) for installed perl modules. Package tools shouldn't be using > /usr/ports/INDEX natively. They should be going through the API so > that other modules can advertise what they're able to install also. > There are loads of things that would benefit from this. Ruby, > Latex, CPAN, etc. libh doesn't address ports issues, in general. On Tue Oct 16, 2001 at 07:00:47PM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: >=20 > The key idea is to separate what is currently a bit convoluted. >=20 > There are various core parts of the package system: >=20 > * component installation database. what's installed, where and what > versions. >=20 > This is currently in /var/db/pkg. It should be possible to use other > backends. It should be possible to drop a 'plug in' module in place to > store this information in whatever way the admin wants. Why not a > central SQL server containing info on all the servers/workstations in > the cluster, for instance. Good idea. It should be possible to implement that in libh. Note however, that this is a minor problem, IMHO. The major problem is the lack of upgrade facilities in the current package scheme. Oh, sure, portupgrade can do binary updates, but the system wasn't designed for that, so it's not reliable. In contrast, libh provides smooth binary upgrades, history, and *undos* for package management. > * indexing, package availability and build functionality. >=20 > At the moment /usr/ports/INDEX is the only way to know what can be > installed. this should be abstracted. it should be possible to write, > for instance, a CPAN module that connects to a CPAN mirror and abstracts > a complete list of what modules are available and have the pkg_install > tools automatically know about these too. If we get this right it would > be possible to add whole chunks of new ports automatically by writing an > interface module to the relevant system. Of the top of my head, ruby, > perl, latex would benefit from these straight away. Of course. This is a problem not addressed by libh, I think. Or at least, not yet. If a database backend abstraction is implemented, however, this would be easy to implement. We have to provide these kind of facilities for packages as well as "ports" (source builds), like debian does.=20 > We already have a perl module in the tree that does the right thing (tm) > when you install a perl module by hand. It creates a /var/db/pkg entry > and allows the user to pkg_delete it afterward. This could be more > tightly integrated. Agreed. Note that libh packages contain tcl code that is run inside a safe interpreter (that's the basic idea, and what makes it attractive and secure). So this could also be relatively easy to implement too. > It's silly not to be able to directly take advantage of other project's > module repositories. Agreed. As a side note, it might be interesting to provide abstraction for "distfile fetching", eg. cvs vs cvsup vs ftp vs rsync, why not.. > * package install, management tools. >=20 > All of the pkg_* and sysinstall. These are intrinsically separate from > the actual install processes. They should be properly abstracted to > make that clear. Right now, the "package tools" in libh are in the state of "proof of concept", ie very immature. But they are about 20 lines long. ;) Just to demonstrate that the processes is actually taken care of by the library. > At the moment the lines between all of these parts of the packaging > system are blurred. By contructing a proper API they can correctly > defined, and allow us to have a far more powerful packaging system in > the process. Just to make a quick resume..=20 - Libh is a *package* management/access/creation system. - It doesn't handle build procedures.=20 - It currently uses a db backend, but this could be rewritten to use multiple backends. - Libh package management system is really complete and already works fairly well. It provides upgrade facilities, integrity checking, safe installs, etc.=20 > Take a look at the mail archives for this month.=20 Done. I hope I covered the most important issues. > I'd be interested to know whether libh has considered these things. Kind of. Libh original idea was to rewrite the package system to overcome its deficiencies. So it addresses some of these issues, if not all. > I thought that > libh was just a graphical interface that would allow sysinstall and > any package install tools to render to both consoles and x11 with > easy and no code changes. Any am wrong? Yes. Libh is *not* just a graphical interface. Concretly, it features: - Database access - File access abstraction (urls, etc) - Package stream access - Libdisk wrapper - package library - tcl/c/c++ interface - seemless C/C++/TCL GUI (Tvision/Qt) library I probably get it wrong, but you get the idea... Now I can go back to sleep. :) A. --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjva7CYACgkQttcWHAnWiGeaeQCeLTIoI5WPi1sjKWgLJqxmozdl atQAn1l7lVv2J5cwGZfS12MSezVeT2FG =vo9T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --2fHTh5uZTiUOsy+g-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sat Oct 27 13: 2:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC3137B401; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 6708741; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:01:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:01:57 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: The Anarcat Cc: "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.org, libh@FreeBSD.org, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> References: <20011020202153.A76835@FreeBSD.org> <20011026135930.03D1637B406@hub.freebsd.org> <20011026165952.D11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026221254.A36515@tao.org.uk> <20011026172027.F11804@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <20011026223033.A44573@tao.org.uk> <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011027131726.A68253@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:17:27PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for taking the time to answer the points you have. My comments are below. On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:17:27PM -0400, The Anarcat wrote: >=20 > Just to make a quick resume..=20 >=20 > - Libh is a *package* management/access/creation system. >=20 > - It doesn't handle build procedures.=20 >=20 > - It currently uses a db backend, but this could be rewritten to use > multiple backends. >=20 > - Libh package management system is really complete and already works > fairly well. It provides upgrade facilities, integrity checking, safe > installs, etc.=20 It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a clean API; and should be split into several, or rely on others. The API that we're talking about here is one such that the libh API should rely on for its job of managing packages, but at the moment it's trying to dig too deep IMO. It's a bit like an application also implementing TCP and ethernet drivers in one library. =20 Joe --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvbEqMACgkQXVIcjOaxUBbenQCgm/txD4CJ5xJRTuRqKd/ok42n x6YAnR90s9BgLrv1oRPedMnxgxeDj4uq =tNYi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Qrgsu6vtpU/OV/zm-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sat Oct 27 14:24:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 753AA37B405; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winston.freebsd.org (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f9RLNcw43066; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@winston.freebsd.org) To: Josef Karthauser Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:01:57 BST." <20011027210157.D1534@tao.org.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:23:38 -0700 Message-ID: <43062.1004217818@winston.freebsd.org> From: Jordan Hubbard Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a > clean API; and should be split into several, or rely on others. Hmmm. What was it someone said a few days ago about not presuming to dictact to others without also being willing to do the work or being, at a minimum, intimately familiar with the subject material? :-) Sit down, Joe, and let the libh people do what they need to do. You can critique it once it's a) finished or b) you start to make enough of a credible contribution yourself that can argue your architectural views from the standpoint of working code. Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but the libh folks have been making great progress lately, after a long period of being completely stalled-out, and this is NOT the time for the peanut gallery to start piping up with steering corrections from the back seat unless it's also willing to walk up to the front and start rowing. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-binup Sat Oct 27 15:14:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-binup@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F50237B406; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 5A686C0; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:14:22 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:14:22 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: The Anarcat , "Simon L. Nielsen" , Eric Melville , binup@FreeBSD.ORG, libh@FreeBSD.ORG, Alexander Langer Subject: Re: current project steps Message-ID: <20011027231422.A55931@tao.org.uk> References: <43062.1004217818@winston.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <43062.1004217818@winston.freebsd.org>; from jkh@winston.freebsd.org on Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:23:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-binup@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:23:38PM -0700, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > It sounds to me that libh has its fingers in too many pies. It's not a > > clean API; and should be split into several, or rely on others. >=20 > Hmmm. What was it someone said a few days ago about not presuming to > dictact to others without also being willing to do the work or being, > at a minimum, intimately familiar with the subject material? :-) What's wrong with "sounds to me"? It wasn't a "it isn't!". From the given description I think that my opinion isn't that off the mark. I'll be reading the libh design document in the next few days to see. I'll not comment on libh any more until I have. > Sit down, Joe, and let the libh people do what they need to do. You > can critique it once it's a) finished or b) you start to make enough > of a credible contribution yourself that can argue your architectural > views from the standpoint of working code. I'm doing nothing to stop them Jordan! What makes you think that I am? I only expressed an opinion based upon the previous poster's description of what libh is. I'll read the libh documents and see if I got it wrong. > Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but the libh folks have been making > great progress lately, after a long period of being completely > stalled-out, and this is NOT the time for the peanut gallery to start > piping up with steering corrections from the back seat unless it's > also willing to walk up to the front and start rowing. Sorry Jordan, yes it is a bit harsh! I know that you've got a personal stake in the libh development, and design documents - maybe that makes you a little tunnel visioned. I hope not. I'd be interested in your comments too on the earlier thread this month. My comments come from an intention to "start rowing"; that's why I've only posted on the subject recently despite being in discussion on the subject with other members of the community for at least six months. I'm not knocking libh. I'm expressing a concern that it "may have it's fingers in too many pies". Joe --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjvbMb0ACgkQXVIcjOaxUBayhQCgnibZffn7vwfWX/AU7eaV4yv7 k38AnRwu6pk+Il2cDlZ0gB31W39gei03 =3p45 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-binup" in the body of the message