From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 1 7:44:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CB0637B71B for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 07:44:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA23242; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 07:42:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAADwaynT; Sun Apr 1 07:42:51 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26355; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 07:44:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104011444.HAA26355@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Email Abuse Question "X-Originating IP" To: reed@reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 14:44:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dchulhan@uwi.tt (Dale Chulhan - Home), chat@FreeBSD.ORG (chat@FreeBSD.ORG) In-Reply-To: from "Jeremy C. Reed" at Mar 31, 2001 06:23:24 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I examined some Hotmail emails that were originating with an abuser > > about a year ago and could not find the X-Originating IP in emails sent > > to windows or macs (I did view source in both cases). Is it that this > > header only shows up on Unix machines? I've noticed that everyone who > > I don't think "X-" headers are platform specific. These headers are > generally added by the particular mail program generating or sending the > mail. As far as I can tell (but I didn't look very far), none of the mail > programs or mail processing tools I use (under Unix-type systems), use > that particular header. > > When I am curious about a particular IP, I look at the > "Received: from" lines in the headers. It is a common practice for webmail programs to expose their originating IP address in headers. Yahoo (Rocektmail) does this by faking up a "Received:" timestamp line, with the "from" element replaces by the bracketted IP address of the client from which the POST request originated. Others use the "X-OriginatingIP:" or a similar "X-" header, which can be anything you want to jam into an "X-" header. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 1 12: 5:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.nc.rr.com (fe5.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049AD37B71D for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rhh@nc.rr.com) Received: from stealth.dummynet ([24.25.3.190]) by mail5.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:05:36 -0400 Received: (from rhh@localhost) by stealth.dummynet (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f31J6fE04073 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:06:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rhh) Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:06:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Randall Hopper Message-Id: <200104011906.f31J6fE04073@stealth.dummynet> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Test Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's see if we can post to the FreeBSD lists again now, despite silly Postfix EHLO DNS rejection rules that don't account for internal domains... Randall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 1 22:15: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59D137B718 for ; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03782; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:14:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMiaaoh; Sun Apr 1 22:14:41 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA10276; Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:14:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104020514.WAA10276@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Test To: rhh@nc.rr.com (Randall Hopper) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 05:14:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104011906.f31J6fE04073@stealth.dummynet> from "Randall Hopper" at Apr 01, 2001 03:06:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Let's see if we can post to the FreeBSD lists again now, despite silly > Postfix EHLO DNS rejection rules that don't account for internal domains... What's silly about requiring that it be possible to contact your postmaster address before a machine is willing to take responsibility for email delivery which might fail? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 2:32:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6937437B71C for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 02:32:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 38508 invoked by uid 100); 2 Apr 2001 09:32:50 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15048.18242.399134.323193@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 04:32:50 -0500 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: ARG!!! 450 Client host rejected: cannot find your hostnam In-Reply-To: <006501c0bb4e$e4f24620$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <15048.6365.713373.341764@guru.mired.org> <006501c0bb4e$e4f24620$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat] Ted Mittelstaedt types: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Mike Meyer [mailto:mwm@mired.org] > >I'd gladly change services, if I could find someone that's > >better. Since I can't, I use what's available, and work around the > >crap as much as I can. > I'm not talking about folks like you who have no choice and are in the > grip of a monopoly. That's not representative of the majority of users > that have problems. I'm not so sure of that. Clearly, I'm in the minority for what I expect from an ISP - which is why ISPs that don't offer them can prosper. If the majority of users who have those expectations aren't shopping around - well, that would surprise me. I'd expect that having higher standards would lead to trying to have them met. > >That's true - but to get a server that's managed the way I want it > >managed, *those* are the two choices I've got. I don't need much > >bandwidth. I do need recent versions of Apache, Postgres, and Python - > >as well as those things configured to my specifications. Even offering > >to install a modern database server - meaning one with transaction > >support - gratis was turned down. > The point was that between those two choices your going to pay a lot more > for the colocation, than for putting a server at the end of a circuit > to an ISP - and that is perfectly fair. Yup. But the two choices I have are using a service whose providers you said should be taken out and shot, or paying a lot more $'s for a a lot of service that I don't really need. I consider taking away one of my options to be a bad thing - which was my point. > >I didn't go find some open relay. I asked my ISPs if they had a > >solution to a problem I had as a PAYING customer, and one of them - > >the most competent of the bunch, if you ask me - replied with a host > >name for an open relay. They understand that there are problems for > >which an open relay is a perfectly valid solution, so they run > >one. They do go to great lengths to keep it hidden. > How could they possibly keep a true open relay hidden? Scanning for them > is rediculously simple. I would be surprised if they had a true open > relay that wasn't listed in MAPS by now. More likely they have a relay > that permits blind relaying from any of their IP number groups. I have no idea - I didn't ask. As far as I could tell, it was a true open relay; I used it from dynamic IP addresses assigned by no fewer than four ISPs besides them. It's not currently listed in the maps database, the host is still there, and still forwarding mail from my current IP address - which they didn't assign. Possibly they detected port scans - either of that IP address, or across their blocks - and block them out somehow. These people ARE the most competent ISP I've dealt with recently. > >doesn't provide. I obviously can't spend a couple of hours every day > >looking for a better ISP. I do do that whenever I get pissed at mine, > >or have to deal with the problems at hand - which amounts to about > >once a quarter. > Of course not, but it's going to take less time for you to find a different > ISP than for you to file a lawsuit against your current one, which is why > lawsuits like the OneMain class action just drive me up the wall. I have to agree about that one - I personally hate bringing lawyers into things, as they generally just drain money from everyone involved. I'd do what you suggested - just cancel service and go elsewhere, even if it meant taking having to go with dynamic IP and a dynamic dns server. If they were sufficiently anal about it, I might drag them into small claims court to recover some costs, but even that's not likely. > With this defeatist attitude, if I was looking to site a new ISP that > would offer the services you want, why would I possibly be induced to > put it in your area? That's the point I'm trying to make. Yes, but it seems you're the one with the defeatist attitude, because you've run into users that aren't willing to switch. I'm perfectly willing to switch, and have done so more than once. I just need the services to be available. Based on the number of email address changes I get, I'd say a fair percentage of people behave like I do. > >Here, I don't have those choices. Until three months ago, I had one > >(count-em: one, uno, ein, 1) choice for broadband access: cable > >modems. Neither ISDN nor DSL were available. > You couldn't be in _that_ low density an area or you wouldn't have > cable - they don't run cable TV out to the farm. This area *was* farms 10 years ago. It's now farms, housing developments and apartment complexes. FWIW, the only cable TV I use is for local channels, because that lowers my ISP bill. > > The cost of a leased line > >this far from the POP was comparable to colocation. > Well, now that's something to consider. If your business is based > on good Interent connectivity, isn't it easier to move Mohammed to > the Mountain, than to try to do it the other way? Yes, but cable modems + dynamic dns solve the problem, and cost a *lot* less. Good connectivity isn't a requirement, it just makes things work better. Enough better that a couple of hundred a month is fine if I get to use that connectivity as well (i.e. - a lot of my work involves connecting from where I am to a client's machine). Colocation doesn't work for that, and leased line fees were to high. > DSL showed up last > >quarter; when I checked on it, I had two DSL choices. Neither one > >offered a static IP, so why switch? > Did you even _tell_ the DSL providers that if either of them offered a > static > IP that you would switch? How are they going to know about potential > customers > if you don't tell them? Fair point. Both had other problems as well; one I told, one I didn't. > >Personally, I'd like to live on the land my great grandparents > >homesteaded, but the choices for broadband there are even worse than > >they are here. > You do bring up one interesting issue - your running a business that's > dependent on good Internet access, yet you don't live in an area _with_ > good Internet access. Not quite true. I'm running a business that works best with good internet connectivity and a website that I manage myself. It's not a requirement, and I worked without it for most of last year. One current client is involved in a business that needs to be outside of any city limits (their work at times involves releasing various flammable gases into the air and igniting them, which most city jurisdictions frown upon). The best they can get is DirectPC, even though they are located at an airport and about 2000 ft from a major cross-country WAN link. I don't need anything beyond a phone line for the work I do for them. > Now, I've looked at your webpage and I don't see that you have an office > of people to manage, so I'll assume your working out of your house and > I'll say that there's many reasons that people purchase private homes, and > I can understand that usually they don't consider good Internet connectivity > when doing so. Correct. I relocated for personal reasons. Internet connectivity wasn't even a consideration. > However, office space for businesses is an entirely different matter, let > me relate a short story that is something along these lines, > and illustrates how stupidly some people consider things. I'm familiar with office space issues, and have looked into renting office space with good connectivity at times. But being able to work from home is more important for what I do than good connectivity. [Story of business idiocy deleted.] Yup - people think just because something costs $X in one place, it should cost $X everywhere. Things just aren't that way. I expected poor internet connectivity when I moved; I arranged to put my web site at an ISP until things settled down and I decided what to do. What I didn't expect was that it was *much* cheaper to maintain the dialin account and web server at my old ISP than to purchase similar web services - with or without a dialup account - locally. Switching to a cable modem and dynamic DNS actually raised my costs slightly. I discussed the issue with a number of local ISPs, but the only one that showed any interest got bought at about that time, so that fizzled as well. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 4:56:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23D737B71C for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 04:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA51718; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:56:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Randall Hopper Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Test References: <200104011906.f31J6fE04073@stealth.dummynet> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Apr 2001 13:56:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: Randall Hopper's message of "Sun, 1 Apr 2001 15:06:41 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Randall Hopper writes: > Let's see if we can post to the FreeBSD lists again now, despite silly > Postfix EHLO DNS rejection rules that don't account for internal domains... If those "internal domains" are {austin,texas,houston}.rr.com, they were intentionally blocked for looping mail back to the lists. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 11:56:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.43.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B929337B71A; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah@cisco.com) Received: from bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com (bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com [171.70.84.42]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05355; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f32Iuqc19018; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200104021856.f32Iuqc19018@bmah-freebsd-0.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/19/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Steve O'Hara-Smith" Cc: mmartinelli@bigfoot.com, jedgar@fxp.org, mvh@ix.netcom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux 2.2.18 vs. FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE In-Reply-To: <20010402203204.5390df2b.steveo@eircom.net> References: <86430000.986138943@pyanfar.ece.cmu.edu> <20010401173846.A19749@marx.marvic.chum> <3AC880F6.DB4ADCB3@quake.com.au> <20010402142817.3D205113E81@netcom1.netcom.com> <20010402103133.A13115@peitho.fxp.org> <20010402181803.A17441@terra.com.br> <20010402203204.5390df2b.steveo@eircom.net> Comments: In-reply-to "Steve O'Hara-Smith" message dated "Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:32:04 +0200." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1613157280P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 11:56:52 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_-1613157280P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii People, please take this elsewhere. Linux flames or the latest /. April Fools joke have nothing to do with freebsd-stable. Thanks, Bruce. If memory serves me right, "Steve O'Hara-Smith" wrote: > On Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:18:03 +0000 > marcelo c martinelli wrote: > > > MM> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/04/02/0326237&mode=thread > Following this leads to a message headed: > > Posted by AilleCat on Sunday April 01, > @11:00PM > > It is a pretty clear April Fool. > > -- > Optimal hardware acceleration for Windows PC (Mac). > 9.98 m/s/s applied for (at least) 2s followed by impact with solid object. > Optimal software upgrade > FreeBSD (OS-X). > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-stable" in the body of the message > --==_Exmh_-1613157280P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 iD8DBQE6yMt02MoxcVugUsMRAhYrAJ9rEgZ117LoJ1a/M1GTF6Myi4Q/CQCfV/0E zAh9XTW+JvYPug974/9LAzs= =KzsW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1613157280P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 15:51:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7B137B71C for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 15:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aa8vb@nc.rr.com) Received: from stealth.dummynet ([24.25.3.190]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:51:28 -0400 Received: (from rhh@localhost) by stealth.dummynet (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f32MptN01425; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:51:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aa8vb@nc.rr.com) X-Authentication-Warning: stealth.dummynet: rhh set sender to aa8vb@nc.rr.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:51:55 -0400 From: Randall Hopper To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Test Message-ID: <20010402185155.A1295@nc.rr.com> References: <200104011906.f31J6fE04073@stealth.dummynet> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 01:56:23PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav: |Randall Hopper writes: |> Let's see if we can post to the FreeBSD lists again now, despite silly |> Postfix EHLO DNS rejection rules that don't account for internal domains... | |If those "internal domains" are {austin,texas,houston}.rr.com, they |were intentionally blocked for looping mail back to the lists. No, I'm in NC (nc.rr.com). The 'internal domain' is a home network passing through a masquaraded firewall where the sending SMTP machine inside the firewall uses a hostname known only in internal DNS. Also, the external DHCP IP assigned to the firewall has no DNS so gating mail through there doesn't help in posting to the FreeBSD lists. I found a work-around though. Randall -- Randall Hopper aa8vb@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 16:54:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail7.nc.rr.com (fe7.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A6937B71F for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 16:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aa8vb@nc.rr.com) Received: from stealth.dummynet ([24.25.3.190]) by mail7.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.537.53); Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:52:55 -0400 Received: (from rhh@localhost) by stealth.dummynet (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f32NrSC02313; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:53:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from aa8vb@nc.rr.com) X-Authentication-Warning: stealth.dummynet: rhh set sender to aa8vb@nc.rr.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:53:28 -0400 From: Randall Hopper To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Test Message-ID: <20010402195328.B1874@nc.rr.com> References: <200104011906.f31J6fE04073@stealth.dummynet> <200104020514.WAA10276@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200104020514.WAA10276@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Mon, Apr 02, 2001 at 05:14:47AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert: |> |> Let's see if we can post to the FreeBSD lists again now, despite silly |> Postfix EHLO DNS rejection rules that don't account for internal domains... | |What's silly about requiring that it be possible to contact |your postmaster address before a machine is willing to take |responsibility for email delivery which might fail? I realize it must be a common spammer pattern to make use of ISP that doesn't list all their IPs in DNS (maybe they're the cheapest -- I don't know). But for legitimate FreeBSD users sending mail from such IPs, or connecting from inside a masquaraded firewall where the internal DNS hostname sendmail wants to put in the EHLO is not known to the outside world, this adds a few tripwires to getting mail on the FreeBSD lists. Aside from the spammer no-DNS pattern, requiring FreeBSD users to only use IPs with names in DNS is a bit silly. It's like requiring everyone to have a listed phone number in the local white pages. It's not that big a deal to me anymore since I have a workaround. Using sendmail's mailertable, I now route mail through my ISP's SMTP server only for destinations at FreeBSD.org. No other mailing list cares. Randall -- Randall Hopper aa8vb@nc.rr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 19:20:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D19237B71F for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f332KHM46926; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:20:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Dan Langille Cc: Subject: Re: any knowledge of ponte.com? In-Reply-To: <200103311315.f2VDF4f81542@ns1.unixathome.org> Message-ID: X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > Anyone have any knowledge of http://www.ponte.com/ they'd like to > share? Is this a shameless plug? Registrant: Brian Smith 1685 Glenlivet Drive Dallas TX US 75218 smi5593@hotmail.com Phone: 214-327-0388 Fax: 214-327-3878 Domain Name: ponte.com Administrative Contact: Brian Smith 1685 Glenlivet Drive Dallas TX US 75218 smi5593@hotmail.com Phone: 214-327-0388 Fax: 214-327-3878 Record Created on........ 2000-07-03 16:48:57.000 Record last updated on... 2000-08-11 14:48:34.000 Expire on................ 2001-11-23 00:00:00.000 Domain servers in listed order: ns.midgard.net 216.240.38.132 ns.cybermiser.com 216.240.46.2 Register Your Domain at www.nameit.ne Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 23: 7:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B936737B71E for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA66674; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:07:49 -0700 Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpd8I2naa; Mon Apr 2 23:07:39 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08860; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:07:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104030607.XAA08860@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Test To: aa8vb@nc.rr.com (Randall Hopper) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:07:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010402195328.B1874@nc.rr.com> from "Randall Hopper" at Apr 02, 2001 07:53:28 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > |What's silly about requiring that it be possible to contact > |your postmaster address before a machine is willing to take > |responsibility for email delivery which might fail? > > I realize it must be a common spammer pattern to make use of ISP that > doesn't list all their IPs in DNS (maybe they're the cheapest -- I don't > know). But for legitimate FreeBSD users sending mail from such IPs, or > connecting from inside a masquaraded firewall where the internal DNS > hostname sendmail wants to put in the EHLO is not known to the outside > world, this adds a few tripwires to getting mail on the FreeBSD lists. > > Aside from the spammer no-DNS pattern, requiring FreeBSD users to only use > IPs with names in DNS is a bit silly. It's like requiring everyone to have > a listed phone number in the local white pages. > > It's not that big a deal to me anymore since I have a workaround. Using > sendmail's mailertable, I now route mail through my ISP's SMTP server only > for destinations at FreeBSD.org. No other mailing list cares. How do you expect to get non-delivery notifications, if the machine to whise postmaster they would be sent is unreachable? If the mail is going multiple hops, you've just created an undeliverable mail loop, which will bounce 16 times between the servers between you and your target, and then after consuming their resources in an unintentional denial of service attack by you, dump the message in the bit bucket. --- The canonical reason for requiring a reverse address is that there are two authorities: the forward address, and the reverse address. Because these are delegated from different authorities, doing a getpeername(), gethostbyaddr(), gethostbyname() will act as a crosscheck. This lets you know that the machine who is contacting you has not spoofed their reverse DNS address to claim to be someone they are not (I can put anything in a reverse record I want, if I have the IP address delegation). By redoing the forward, I verify that the machine I get is the machine configured by the domain delegation, as well as by the reverse record. It verifies for me that you have rights to both the DNS on the IP delegation for the in-addr.arpa domain, and for the domain of which the machine is a member. --- The common workaround to your situation is that you are required to relay your email through a mail server which will relay for you based on your IP address, and which itself doesn't have the problem -- in other words, your ISP's mail servers. If they pass the test, then if you send SPAM, those of us who receive it can pressure your ISP to terminate your account. Another common approach, if your gateway machine running the NAT has a valid reverse address, your most correct course of action is to configure sendmail to claim to be that machine in its "EHLO" and address rewriting rules for "mail from:" addresses. See the "MASQUERADE_DOMAIN" and "MASQUERADE_ENTIRE_DOMAIN" M4 macros. Finally, you can always have the systems to whom you send email set up accounts for your mail server, and permit your relay if your mail server authticates to their mail server using the "AUTH" SMTP extension. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 2 23:30:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost-1.inspire.net.nz [203.79.88.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 40FA337B718 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 23:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 390 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2001 06:30:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO outpost.co.nz) (192.168.1.199) by outpost-4.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 3 Apr 2001 06:30:36 -0000 Message-ID: <3AC96E06.71ED1DE6@outpost.co.nz> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 18:30:30 +1200 From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Test References: <200104030607.XAA08860@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > The canonical reason for requiring a reverse address is that there > are two authorities: the forward address, and the reverse address. Nice in theory. In this country you can't control the reverses unless you "own"[1] the IP address, and you can't get any IPs from APNIC unless you're a service provider and you've got loads of cash. As an end user it's almost impossible to get an IP I could control the reverse of. -- C. [1] I'm not really allowed to say "own" because officially you don't "own" IP addresses, you just get to use them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 8:35:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B474C37B71A for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA21501; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:29:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAF9ai4P; Tue Apr 3 08:29:50 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA16970; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:35:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104031535.IAA16970@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Test To: crh@outpost.co.nz (Craig Harding) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:34:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3AC96E06.71ED1DE6@outpost.co.nz> from "Craig Harding" at Apr 03, 2001 06:30:30 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The canonical reason for requiring a reverse address is that there > > are two authorities: the forward address, and the reverse address. > > Nice in theory. In this country you can't control the reverses unless > you "own"[1] the IP address, and you can't get any IPs from APNIC unless > you're a service provider and you've got loads of cash. As an end user > it's almost impossible to get an IP I could control the reverse of. > > [1] I'm not really allowed to say "own" because officially you don't > "own" IP addresses, you just get to use them. This is not true. If you are running a DNS server visible to the net, you can get a delegation, since you have an autonomous system number. A static IP address from UUNET will give you this; they give you 8 IP addresses, 6 of which are usable, with a BGP route to your host. This works for ISDN, DSL, or leased line. The IBM web connections product sold static IP addresses with its service for $99/month. In practice, the reverse records were delegated to the NOC, in Rochester, NY, since it was the primary name server. It was possible to delegate primary authority for the in-addr.arpa delegations; in practice, we did not do this, because it was important that the customer domain remain virtually on line, even if the customer's border machine lost connectivity. For that reason, the DNS servers and the backup mail exchangers, and sometimes, the web site hosting, were on hosted infrastructure not at the customer premises. Occasionally, the web site hosting _was_ at the customer premises. But in any case, the reverse record matched the canonical name for the border NAT, and there were up to 5 other reverse records matching other "perimeter" machines who were either physically outside the firewall, or virtually outside the firewall through an IP alias and a divert rule for a single port, to prevent them from being vulnerable to attack. While it's true that there are a lot of IP addresses being assigned with "invalid" reverse addresses, the vast majority are assigned with valid reverse addresses, which don't happen to match the names claimed by the servers, since people are trying to run domains when they are not paying their ISP to be an NSP. Luckily, there's another workaround: Configure your mail server to claim the IP address of the valid reverse address. That is, if your ip address is 10.1.0.2 and your reverse is set by your ISP to 2.0.1.10.bank1.dsl.example.com, then have your mail server claim to be "2.0.1.10.bank1.dsl.example.com". If your ISP is not setting up a reverse record at all, well, get another ISP, or pay them the extra money the want to do the job, which usually means paying "business customer" rates (which in turn usually just mean "this person wants to run a server, and we can make them pay for doing that, so we do). Alternately, find a proxy IP service somewhere. A proxy IP service owns a block, and lets you PPPOE into their service, at which time packet look like they are coming from their IP address. You are permitted, via a cruptographically secure ling to update the reverse DNS record for the IP address you have to anything you want. In addition, if their DNS server is your primary DNS server for a hosted domain, you can update the forward as well. There are a number of services like this in Taiwan and Hong Kong, which accept VISA and Mastercard. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 12:28:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (gibraltar.globalstar.com [207.88.248.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC98437B71C for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjclark@alum.mit.edu) Received: from alum.mit.edu ([207.88.153.184]) by nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GB8E3I00.30E; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:28:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:28:49 -0700 From: Crist Clark Organization: Globalstar LP X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Peter Radcliffe Subject: Re: su change? References: <005401c0bc63$7cb36650$0202a8c0@majorzoot> <001f01c0bc68$681a2b20$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <20010403140935.F9618@pir.net> <3ACA12FF.F4000B95@allmaui.com> <3ACA1755.7C98C5@alum.mit.edu> <20010403144240.H9618@pir.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Radcliffe wrote: > > Crist Clark probably said: > > [misquoted text cut. please learn to quote correctly] The previous poster screwed up the quoting. I am always torn whether the best etiquette is to "fix" it or not. > > If you've put a password in the boot PROM and forgotten that however, you > > are fscked. Time to buy a new chip! > > *sigh* > You don't know when to give up, do you ? > > What does forgetting the prom password on a sparc have to do with your > incorrect comment on screwing up root's password entry on a Solaris > box ? Someone else started talking about booting off of a CDROM which diverted us into the relm of a Sun in OpenBoot. I wanted to point out you can just tell it to boot off the CDROM, so I was expecting someone to mention that you would need a EEPROM password to do that if the security was enabled. I figured I preempt that remark. > Oh, and you're incorrect again. You can remove a lost PROM password > without replacing the PROM, assuming you have physical access which > you'd have to have to replace it. Some are easier than others and the > easier ones depend on other settings in the prom, but it can be done > in several ways. > > The NVRAM FAQ lists some of them; > http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html Ummm... This page says, 7.My Sun is in full-security mode (can't even boot without password) and I don't know the EEPROM password. How do I fix this? (Replace chip) "Replace chip." You know a trick? I'd be curious. I had an admin do this once ('course, with our Sun contract, a tech replaced the chip the same day, no big deal). > Quit wasting time and bandwidth arguing about things you don't know > enough about on inappropriate lists ? I agree this has now gotten inappropriate. Unfortunately, my mailer mutinied when I tried to remove -stable from the list of targets (teach me to wrestle with the mailer at work). I left in -security since I was actually posing a small question about the old C2 spec someone mentioned. This time, I promise to try harder to get the recpients correct. But I am not sure what I do not know enough about. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 12:56:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moek.pir.net (moek.pir.net [130.64.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2A2D37B71D for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pir@pir.net) Received: from pir by moek.pir.net with local (Exim) id 14kWua-0003mj-00 ; Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:56:20 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 15:56:20 -0400 From: Peter Radcliffe To: Crist Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: su change? Message-ID: <20010403155620.C13435@pir.net> References: <005401c0bc63$7cb36650$0202a8c0@majorzoot> <001f01c0bc68$681a2b20$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <20010403140935.F9618@pir.net> <3ACA12FF.F4000B95@allmaui.com> <3ACA1755.7C98C5@alum.mit.edu> <20010403144240.H9618@pir.net> <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu>; from crist.clark@globalstar.com on Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:28:49PM -0700 X-fish: < Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't read -chat. Crist Clark probably said: > Someone else started talking about booting off of a CDROM which > diverted us into the relm of a Sun in OpenBoot. I wanted to point out > you can just tell it to boot off the CDROM, so I was expecting someone to > mention that you would need a EEPROM password to do that if the security > was enabled. I figured I preempt that remark. If you've lost the PROM password you've got far bigger problems than a root password, which was the question. > 7.My Sun is in full-security mode (can't even boot without password) > and I don't know the EEPROM password. How do I fix this? (Replace chip) > > "Replace chip." You know a trick? I'd be curious. I had an admin do > this once ('course, with our Sun contract, a tech replaced the chip > the same day, no big deal). If you have a service contract the easiest way (and the only way supported by sun) is indeed to get them to replace it. No one in their right minds should be putting production machines in full-security mode, however, with the possible exception of desktop machines when you don't trust the person sitting in front of it. It only increases the security level slightly and can be worked around if you have physical access. If you have physical access you can pull the disk and put it in a machine where you have root access and alter the password file and ignore the prom password. If you don't have a service contract (personally aquired a machine or similar), and don't want to buy a new NVRAM, that URL also describes; ] Resetting the NVRAM (when Stop-N doesn't do it) ] ] You might want to do this to recover from the loss of an NVRAM password ] (in full security mode) or if you mess up your nvramrc. I think that the ] safest thing to do is pay the $20 for a new Timekeeper chip. But several ] people have reported to me success hot-swapping the NVRAM (i.e. removing ] and installing a new chip when the system is on). ] ] dowdy@cs.colorado.edu (Stephen Dowdy) writes: ] > (this may apply to other SPARC models.) ] > IPC -- remove NVRAM, power-up without. *carefully* hot-plug it in when OK ] > prompt comes up (after it says CHECKSUM failure). do: ] > OK set-defaults ] > OK set-defaults ] > then power-cycle ] > ] > SS2 -- you need to boot from a good NVRAM, then hot-swap the "bad" one ] > and "set-defaults". Only if the L1-N (or is it L1-D) thingy ] > doesn't work for you. You can also use a ZIF socket with one pin removed to do this more safely and on more machines. I've done this on a Sparc Classic I aquired. When the PROM is not in full-security mode you can reset passwords in several other ways; the easiest is to replace the non-booting disk with a disk that will boot and you know the root password for and use the eeprom command. If someone has left 'net' in the boot-device list, you can remove the disk and when it fails to boot from disk it will try to boot from the network, I use a jumpstart mini-root to use the eeprom command. I've done this on a few machines. > I agree this has now gotten inappropriate. Unfortunately, my mailer > mutinied when I tried to remove -stable from the list of targets (teach > me to wrestle with the mailer at work). I left in -security since I was > actually posing a small question about the old C2 spec someone mentioned. To my knowledge (I don't work with any of the other listed OSen day to day) there hasn't been a C2 mode on a major commercial OS since SunOS 4. Modern versions meet as much of C2 as they are going to as shipped. P. -- pir pir@pir.net pir@net.tufts.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 13:44:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (unknown [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76ECD37B718 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA27406; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:45:22 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 06:45:18 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Peter Radcliffe Cc: Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: su change? Message-ID: <20010404064516.F4964@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Peter Radcliffe , Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <005401c0bc63$7cb36650$0202a8c0@majorzoot> <001f01c0bc68$681a2b20$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <20010403140935.F9618@pir.net> <3ACA12FF.F4000B95@allmaui.com> <3ACA1755.7C98C5@alum.mit.edu> <20010403144240.H9618@pir.net> <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu> <20010403155620.C13435@pir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <20010403155620.C13435@pir.net>; from Peter Radcliffe on Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400, Peter Radcliffe wrote: > > To my knowledge (I don't work with any of the other listed OSen day to > day) there hasn't been a C2 mode on a major commercial OS since SunOS > 4. Modern versions meet as much of C2 as they are going to as > shipped. OSF1/Digital/DEC/Tru64 (I have one newish machine that calls itself all of these names!) has an optional C2 Security package, which is almost mandatory these days because of how the base system handles passwords. You install the C2 stuff and enable those C2 features you want to use, if not all of them. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 14:30:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from klapaucius.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00EB37B71D for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@zer0.org) Received: by klapaucius.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3D4E2239A53; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:30:43 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: anyone getting offlist spam via omnilinux.com? Message-ID: <20010403143043.L77952@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <200103311120.f2VBKBf80766@ns1.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 11:13:59AM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2001-03-31 11:13 -0800, "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Sat, 31 Mar 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > I've been receiving spam to various address, all off list, which looks like > > this: > > > > Received: from devel.omnilinux.com ([64.3.133.197]) by > > ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f2V84Hf78654 for > > ; Sat, 31 Mar 2001 20:04:18 +1200 > > (NZST) (envelope-from wwwrun@devel.omnilinux.com) > > Received: (from wwwrun@localhost) by devel.omnilinux.com > > (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id AAA22913; Sat, 31 Mar 2001 > > 00:04:04 -0800 > > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2001 00:04:04 -0800 > > Message-Id: <200103310804.AAA22913@devel.omnilinux.com> > > To: webmaster@freebsddiary.org > > Subject: Merlin Server released by Abriasoft > > Content-Type: text/plain > > From: Abriasoft Promo > > Reply-to: muditm@abriasoft.com > > X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 1 P561C0.CNM > > > > > > Anyone else seen similar? > > Yes, I received the exact same message twice. But I do not believe it is > spam. The email was sent for two of my sites that I am an editor of. (And > from your example, it was sent for your website.) In the emails I > received, AbriaSoft simply wants me to review their software for an > article at my site. (I guess they want you to review it also and publish > an article at your site.) I received the same, in multiple copies, for root@, info@, webmaster@, and a couple of other daemonnews.org addresses. I was not very happy about it, and therefore simply discarded the announcements. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Fnord. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 18:15: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE14A37B72C for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 4D61C755D; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CA71D89; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Sue Blake Cc: Peter Radcliffe , Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: su change? In-Reply-To: <20010404064516.F4964@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Sue Blake wrote: :On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400, Peter Radcliffe wrote: :> :> To my knowledge (I don't work with any of the other listed OSen day to :> day) there hasn't been a C2 mode on a major commercial OS since SunOS :> 4. Modern versions meet as much of C2 as they are going to as :> shipped. : : :OSF1/Digital/DEC/Tru64 (I have one newish machine that calls itself all :of these names!) has an optional C2 Security package, which is almost :mandatory these days because of how the base system handles passwords. :You install the C2 stuff and enable those C2 features you want to use, :if not all of them. You can get Irix in a C2 flavour as well. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 18:17:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aphex.newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E8837B718 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:17:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: from localhost (jmallett@localhost) by aphex.newgold.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f341G7430473; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Sue Blake , Peter Radcliffe , Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: su change? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Trusted Solaris and Trusted IRIX (TIRIX was once its own OS, now it's just OS extensions) were above C2 I thought? /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist +1 919 349 2976 www.newgold.net josephm@ohsmeg.com jmallett@newgold.net xMach: The proactively unbloated microkernel 4.4BSD-like operating system. www.xMach.org On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Sue Blake wrote: > > :On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400, Peter Radcliffe wrote: > :> > :> To my knowledge (I don't work with any of the other listed OSen day to > :> day) there hasn't been a C2 mode on a major commercial OS since SunOS > :> 4. Modern versions meet as much of C2 as they are going to as > :> shipped. > : > : > :OSF1/Digital/DEC/Tru64 (I have one newish machine that calls itself all > :of these names!) has an optional C2 Security package, which is almost > :mandatory these days because of how the base system handles passwords. > :You install the C2 stuff and enable those C2 features you want to use, > :if not all of them. > > You can get Irix in a C2 flavour as well. > > Jamie Bowden > > -- > "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" > Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" > Iain Bowen > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 18:32:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7B937B720 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id UAA86912702 Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:25:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12806; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:33:40 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Peter Radcliffe Cc: Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: su change? Message-ID: <20010403183340.A12770@darkstar.gte.net> References: <005401c0bc63$7cb36650$0202a8c0@majorzoot> <001f01c0bc68$681a2b20$1200a8c0@gsicomp.on.ca> <20010403140935.F9618@pir.net> <3ACA12FF.F4000B95@allmaui.com> <3ACA1755.7C98C5@alum.mit.edu> <20010403144240.H9618@pir.net> <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu> <20010403155620.C13435@pir.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010403155620.C13435@pir.net>; from pir@pir.net on Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 03:56:20PM -0400, Peter Radcliffe wrote: > > To my knowledge (I don't work with any of the other listed OSen day to > day) there hasn't been a C2 mode on a major commercial OS since SunOS > 4. Modern versions meet as much of C2 as they are going to as > shipped. > AIX 4.3 can include a TCB at install time. Based on a quick search of the website, when used properly, C2 can apparently be achieved. [RC] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 3 19:36: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4C737B728 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 19:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA94807; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 02:35:43 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 02:35:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: Crist Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Peter Radcliffe Subject: Re: su change? In-Reply-To: <3ACA2471.A5AF44AD@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Crist Clark wrote: > Ummm... This page says, > > 7.My Sun is in full-security mode (can't even boot without password) > and I don't know the EEPROM password. How do I fix this? (Replace chip) > > "Replace chip." You know a trick? I'd be curious. I had an admin do > this once ('course, with our Sun contract, a tech replaced the chip > the same day, no big deal). Smashing ^C like a mad monkey once SunOS starts over the com-console (no keyboard) is another... ^C^C^C^C # # fsck -p # mount -a # eeprom (-flags to change password) Then reboot, remove the security (since you now know the password). I honestly didn't think IPXs would be *that* easy to break into... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 0:33:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (gibraltar.globalstar.com [207.88.248.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5801837B722 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:33:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjclark@alum.mit.edu) Received: from alum.mit.edu ([207.88.154.6]) by nsmail.corp.globalstar.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GB9BNO00.01U; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:33:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3ACAEAAF.F7434509@alum.mit.edu> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 02:34:39 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: Crist Clark , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Peter Radcliffe Subject: Re: su change? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Crist Clark wrote: > > Ummm... This page says, > > > > 7.My Sun is in full-security mode (can't even boot without password) > > and I don't know the EEPROM password. How do I fix this? (Replace chip) > > > > "Replace chip." You know a trick? I'd be curious. I had an admin do > > this once ('course, with our Sun contract, a tech replaced the chip > > the same day, no big deal). > > Smashing ^C like a mad monkey once SunOS starts over the com-console (no > keyboard) is another... > > ^C^C^C^C # > # fsck -p > # mount -a > # eeprom (-flags to change password) > > Then reboot, remove the security (since you now know the password). I > honestly didn't think IPXs would be *that* easy to break into... That's in full-security mode? In full-security mode, the machine will not go past the boot prompt without a password. It will not start going into multi-user mode; the OS never will start to boot. However, that method would be relevant to the start of this thread, how to get access when /etc/passwd is munged. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 9: 2:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (spaz.huntsvilleal.com [63.147.8.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3D637B722 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Received: from localhost (kris@localhost) by Spaz.HuntsvilleAL.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12559; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:01:40 GMT (envelope-from kris@catonic.net) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:01:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby X-Sender: kris@spaz.huntsvilleal.com To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Peter Radcliffe Subject: Re: su change? In-Reply-To: <3ACAEAAF.F7434509@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Crist J. Clark wrote: > That's in full-security mode? In full-security mode, the machine will > not go past the boot prompt without a password. It will not start > going into multi-user mode; the OS never will start to boot. Negative; that's just if it's in "lab" mode. Like a BIOS password... > However, that method would be relevant to the start of this thread, > how to get access when /etc/passwd is munged. Nifty, I guess. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 10:26:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E097437B718 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA31200; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:26:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:26:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Doug White Cc: Dan Langille , Subject: Re: any knowledge of ponte.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Doug White wrote: > On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > Anyone have any knowledge of http://www.ponte.com/ they'd like to > > share? > > Is this a shameless plug? Erm.... > Registrant: > > > Brian Smith > 1685 Glenlivet Drive > > Dallas > TX US 75218 > smi5593@hotmail.com [...lots more snipped...] Ok, what does that have to do with Dan Langille, who asked about it? I see absolutely no relation. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 12:15:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700C037B728 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from xeon (xeon.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.18]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f34JFEx19571; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:15:14 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:15:14 +1200 (NZST) From: Dan Langille X-X-Sender: To: Chris Dillon Cc: Doug White , Subject: Re: any knowledge of ponte.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Doug White wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > Anyone have any knowledge of http://www.ponte.com/ they'd like to > > > share? > > > > Is this a shameless plug? > > Erm.... > > > Registrant: > > > > > > Brian Smith > > 1685 Glenlivet Drive > > > > Dallas > > TX US 75218 > > smi5593@hotmail.com > > [...lots more snipped...] > > Ok, what does that have to do with Dan Langille, who asked about it? > I see absolutely no relation. I was hoping for other types of information, first hand experience etc. But thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 13:20:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from diskfarm.firehouse.net (rdu26-60-051.nc.rr.com [66.26.60.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADE837B728 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abc@diskfarm.firehouse.net) Received: (from abc@localhost) by diskfarm.firehouse.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f34KMRB36123 for Freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:22:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from abc) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:22:27 -0400 From: Alan Clegg To: Freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: corporate announcement Message-ID: <20010404162227.D35424@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.bsdi.com AlanC -- perl -le '$_="6110>374086;2064208213:90<307;55";tr[0->][ LEOR\!AUBGNSTY];print' abc@bsdi.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 13:35:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422DD37B71B for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 13:35:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07974; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:35:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010404143439.00e5c820@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:35:28 -0600 To: Alan Clegg , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <20010404162227.D35424@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like BSDi's investors got cold feet and/or wanted to cash in sooner rather than later. What will this mean for BSD? --Brett At 02:22 PM 4/4/2001, Alan Clegg wrote: >http://www.bsdi.com > >AlanC >-- >perl -le '$_="6110>374086;2064208213:90<307;55";tr[0->][ LEOR\!AUBGNSTY];print' > > abc@bsdi.com > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 14: 4:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from illustrious.cnchost.com (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0C637B71E for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by illustrious.cnchost.com id RAA05800; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:04:46 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> To: Alan Clegg Cc: Freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Apr 2001 16:22:27 EDT." <20010404162227.D35424@diskfarm.firehouse.net> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:04:46 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Also: http://www.upside.com/HardwareSoftware/3acb73b11_yahoo.html which says, among other things: With the acquisition of Colorado Springs, Colo.-based BSDi, Wind River inherits 40 to 50 employees, including Jordan Hubbard, a leader in the Free BSD project. Free BSD, a collaborative open source rival of Linux, will now be housed at Wind River with Hubbard continuing to head the effort. "We intend that Free BSD thrive under our stewardship," said President and CEO Tom St. Dennis in an interview. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 14:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B949137B724 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08488; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:21:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:21:32 -0600 To: Bakul Shah , Alan Clegg From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:04 PM 4/4/2001, Bakul Shah wrote: >http://www.upside.com/HardwareSoftware/3acb73b11_yahoo.html The lead sentence of that article says: >Embedded software maker Wind River Systems (WIND) today announced that it >bought two operating systems, including one of the major strains of open >source BSD. I'm sure that many folks will bristle at the idea of FreeBSD having been "bought." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 14:38:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE0F37B71B for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id QAA125906174 Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:40:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14831; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:39:37 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Brett Glass Cc: Bakul Shah , Alan Clegg , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement Message-ID: <20010404143937.A14792@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 03:21:32PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone else thing WinDriver could use a name change? I wonder just what part of FreeBSD they'be bought? Its odd to think that the FreeBSD product name may outlive BSDI? [RC] On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 03:21:32PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:04 PM 4/4/2001, Bakul Shah wrote: > > >http://www.upside.com/HardwareSoftware/3acb73b11_yahoo.html > > The lead sentence of that article says: > > >Embedded software maker Wind River Systems (WIND) today announced that it > >bought two operating systems, including one of the major strains of open > >source BSD. > > I'm sure that many folks will bristle at the idea of FreeBSD having > been "bought." > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 14:45:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E05537B719 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:45:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14kv5f-0001cm-00; Wed, 04 Apr 2001 14:45:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 14:45:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010404143439.00e5c820@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > cash in sooner rather than later. What will this mean for > BSD? I just listened to a press conference. - governance of FreeBSD remains with the FreeBSD organization - plans to donate technology to FreeBSD - plans to share code as open source - Hubbard said that he doesn't see any change; and they'll be working on sharing code more between (working on combining code from) BSD/OS and FreeBSD. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 15:53:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9318637B720 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 15:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f34Mr7h28225; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > cash in sooner rather than later. What will this mean for > > BSD? > > I just listened to a press conference. > > - governance of FreeBSD remains with the FreeBSD organization > - plans to donate technology to FreeBSD > - plans to share code as open source > - Hubbard said that he doesn't see any change; and they'll be working on > sharing code more between (working on combining code from) BSD/OS and > FreeBSD. My take is similar, having also listened in on the press conference, and had the opportunity to talk with a number of people involved in the acquisition. It's important, while not underplaying the contributions of Walnut Creek, later BSDi, to distinguish clearly FreeBSD and the various companies who have contributed resources to the project. It looks to me like both Wind River and the FreeBSD Project have a lot to gain from cooperation, not least in the area of FreeBSD developer access to Wind River expertise in operating system design, realtime programming, and software engineering tools. While Jordan did say he saw things not changing, I actually see the acquisition as an important opportunity for positive change: many of the unreached goals of BSDi become far more reachable with the help of a large, technically savvy yet financially stable company like WR. For the record, it's also useful to note that at this point only one FreeBSD Core Team member is an employee of WC/BSDi/Wind River, Jordan Hubbard, and only a minority of FreeBSD committers work there (albeit an important minority). There was never any question of Wind River acquiring FreeBSD, despite the somewhat troubling Reuters article claiming as much. :-) The FreeBSD Project is not for sale, but contributions are gladly accepted. I look forward greatly to WR's contributions. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 16:20: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.nbc.attcanada.ca (mail2.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3508337B728 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@risc.org) Received: from tor-dev1 (tor-dev1 [207.181.89.12]) by mail2.nbc.attcanada.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAB00186 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:19:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: ncc0070@tor-dev1.nbc.attcanada.ca To: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Bakul Shah wrote: > > Also: > http://www.upside.com/HardwareSoftware/3acb73b11_yahoo.html Also: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-5510476.html ... in which they misprinted Jordan's name. :( "Wind River acquired BSDi's software, along with 50 of its employees and Jason Hubbard, one of the leaders of the FreeBSD project." ^^^^^ -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 16:46:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blount.mail.mindspring.net (blount.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB07637B42C for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 16:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from l.esnayra@dilet.com) Received: from dilet.com (user-vc8fqnj.biz.mindspring.com [216.135.234.243]) by blount.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05530 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3ACBB583.155A99B7@dilet.com> Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 17:00:03 -0700 From: Leticia Esnayra Organization: DiLet Associates, LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Help... Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E1E9B1398A03374D24049248" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E1E9B1398A03374D24049248 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi there: I'm looking for Solaris 7/8 source drivers for: Alteon Gigabit Ethernet Tigon II Intel Ethernet 21143 Any help would be appreciated! Leticia --------------E1E9B1398A03374D24049248 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="l.esnayra.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Leticia Esnayra Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="l.esnayra.vcf" begin:vcard n:Esnayra;Leticia tel;fax:562.438.0897 tel;work:562.438.0896 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.dilet.com org:DiLet Associates, LLC version:2.1 email;internet:l.esnayra@dilet.com title:Manufacturers' Sales Representative adr;quoted-printable:;;201 Covina Avenue=0D=0ASuite 10=0D=0A;Long Beach (Belmont Shore);CA;90803;USA note;quoted-printable:San Diego Location:=0D=0A=0D=0A9245 Dowdy Drive=0D=0ASuite 202=0D=0ASan Diego, CA 92126=0D=0A=0D=0Atel: 858.530.1156=0D=0Afax: 858.530.1159 x-mozilla-cpt:;-1 fn:Leticia Esnayra end:vcard --------------E1E9B1398A03374D24049248-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 4 17:14:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A486A37B440 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 17:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antipode@thpoon.com) Received: (qmail 96661 invoked from network); 5 Apr 2001 00:14:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by cr103675-a.bloor1.on.wave.home.com with SMTP; 5 Apr 2001 00:14:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 1261 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Apr 2001 00:14:29 -0000 To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement References: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost> <20010404143937.A14792@darkstar.gte.net> From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 04 Apr 2001 20:14:29 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20010404143937.A14792@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: <87puesdwyi.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > Anyone else thing WinDriver could use a name change? ... and that their logo and the first four letters of their name are dangerously close to those of a well-known operating system? :) -- Arcady Genkin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 1:19:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854BB37B43F; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 01:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johann@egenetics.com) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 14l4yu-000GSD-00; Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:19:04 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:19:04 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Robert Watson Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement Message-ID: <20010405101904.C62142@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 06:53:07PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Watson on 2001-04-04 (Wed) at 18:53:07 -0400: > > I actually see the acquisition as an important opportunity for > positive change: many of the unreached goals of BSDi become far more > reachable with the help of a large, technically savvy yet financially > stable company like WR. Can you - or somebody else who's in the know - maybe give some background on WindRiver? I, for one, have never heard of them until today (though admittedly that may indicate nothing but my own ignorance ;-). Thanks, -- Johann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 5:25:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF41B37B446 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 191138 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 2001 12:25:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.222.48) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 5 Apr 2001 12:25:33 -0000 Message-ID: <3ACC643C.6259598E@uwi.tt> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 08:25:32 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Cat 5 Cable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Everyone, Does anyone know of a list of sorts for Companies that provide CAT 5 Cable in a BIG WAY..not just 30-40 1000 ft ROLLS, but MEGA Quantities.. TIA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 5:48:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5607F37B43C for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5A01F755D; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5782F1D89; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 05:50:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Cat 5 Cable In-Reply-To: <3ACC643C.6259598E@uwi.tt> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Dale Chulhan - Home wrote: :Does anyone know of a list of sorts for Companies that provide CAT 5 :Cable in a BIG WAY..not just 30-40 1000 ft ROLLS, but MEGA Quantities.. http://www.anicommm.com/ Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 6:48: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44A937B509 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 06:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA45008; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:47:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:47:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Dan Langille Cc: Doug White , Subject: Re: any knowledge of ponte.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Apr 2001, Doug White wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > > > Anyone have any knowledge of http://www.ponte.com/ they'd like to > > > > share? > > > > > > Is this a shameless plug? > > > > Erm.... > > > > > Registrant: > > > > > > > > > Brian Smith > > > 1685 Glenlivet Drive > > > > > > Dallas > > > TX US 75218 > > > smi5593@hotmail.com > > > > [...lots more snipped...] > > > > Ok, what does that have to do with Dan Langille, who asked about it? > > I see absolutely no relation. > > I was hoping for other types of information, first hand experience > etc. I know. I was getting on Doug for what looked like "proof" that you were somehow putting in a shameless plug. That wasn't the case, obviously, but it sure looked like it at first. Sorry, Doug. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 7:33:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CFB37B42C; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA65644; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:32:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Johann Visagie Cc: Robert Watson , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement References: <20010405101904.C62142@fling.sanbi.ac.za> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 05 Apr 2001 16:32:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Johann Visagie's message of "Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:19:04 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Johann Visagie writes: > Can you - or somebody else who's in the know - maybe give some background on > WindRiver? I, for one, have never heard of them until today (though > admittedly that may indicate nothing but my own ignorance ;-). You've nver heard of VxWorks? Or of the Mars Pathfinder? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 7:34:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7308237B423 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA65656; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:34:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement References: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost> <20010404143937.A14792@darkstar.gte.net> <87puesdwyi.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 05 Apr 2001 16:34:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: Arcady Genkin's message of "04 Apr 2001 20:14:29 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arcady Genkin writes: > Robert Clark writes: > > Anyone else thing WinDriver could use a name change? > ... and that their logo and the first four letters of their name are > dangerously close to those of a well-known operating system? :) Guys, if you're having trouble controlling your imaginations, try reducing your consumption of recreational chemicals. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 8: 1:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D3A37B43E for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from johann@egenetics.com) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 14lBG1-000KgQ-00; Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:01:09 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:01:09 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement Message-ID: <20010405170109.M64462@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20010405101904.C62142@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:32:52PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav on 2001-04-05 (Thu) at 16:32:52 +0200: > > Johann Visagie writes: > > Can you - or somebody else who's in the know - maybe give some background on > > WindRiver? I, for one, have never heard of them until today (though > > admittedly that may indicate nothing but my own ignorance ;-). > > You've nver heard of VxWorks? As a matter of fact, I haven't. I have little interaction with the embedded arena, and until today QNX has been the only propriatary embedded OS with a high enough profile to penetrate into my little frame of reference. :-) At any rate, some few web searches later I'm considerably more informed. > Or of the Mars Pathfinder? I'm not _that_ insular. ;-) -- Johann To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 8:43:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (w149.z064000151.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.151.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0011E37B446 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14hVTn-0003S2-00; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:48:11 +0000 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:48:11 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Tony Finch Subject: Re: Outlook causing foot & mouth / mad cow? Message-ID: <20010326114811.I386@hand.dotat.at> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324084359.01765d90@mail.brightmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010324084359.01765d90@mail.brightmail.com> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm, what would be the computer equivalent of a prion disease for computers? Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 8:43:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hand.dotat.at (w149.z064000151.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.151.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812B337B509 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fanf@dotat.at) Received: from fanf by hand.dotat.at with local (Exim 3.20 #3) id 14hVQO-0003Rp-00; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:44:40 +0000 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:44:40 +0000 From: Tony Finch To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh no! They killed Beastie! Message-ID: <20010326114440.H386@hand.dotat.at> References: <20010322164937.C724@hand.dotat.at> <200103222007.NAA15782@usr06.primenet.com> <20010323025057.B386@hand.dotat.at> <20010323025057.B386@hand.dotat.at>; <20010325144001.A46018@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010325144001.A46018@xor.obsecurity.org> Organization: Covalent Technologies, Inc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: >On Fri, Mar 23, 2001 at 02:50:57AM +0000, Tony Finch wrote: >> >> Er, I was referring to various Eastern US states. What are you talking about? > >The TV series _Andromeda_ [...] Ah, I don't watch TV :-) Tony. -- f.a.n.finch fanf@covalent.net dot@dotat.at BISCAY: SOUTHWESTERLY 3 OR 4, OCCASIONALLY 5 IN NORTH. RAIN AT TIMES. MODERATE OR GOOD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 8:47:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1473737B43C for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id KAA125898743 Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:48:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA16747; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:47:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:47:40 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement Message-ID: <20010405084740.A16705@darkstar.gte.net> References: <200104042104.RAA05800@illustrious.cnchost.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010404151942.04665540@localhost> <20010404143937.A14792@darkstar.gte.net> <87puesdwyi.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:34:51PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag, if you're having trouble controlling your crankiness, try taking that bug out of your ass. [RC] On Thu, Apr 05, 2001 at 04:34:51PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Arcady Genkin writes: > > Robert Clark writes: > > > Anyone else thing WinDriver could use a name change? > > ... and that their logo and the first four letters of their name are > > dangerously close to those of a well-known operating system? :) > > Guys, if you're having trouble controlling your imaginations, try > reducing your consumption of recreational chemicals. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 10:45:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD5D37B423 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:45:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f35Hish43058; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:44:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:44:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Johann Visagie Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <20010405101904.C62142@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Johann Visagie wrote: > Robert Watson on 2001-04-04 (Wed) at 18:53:07 -0400: > > > > I actually see the acquisition as an important opportunity for > > positive change: many of the unreached goals of BSDi become far more > > reachable with the help of a large, technically savvy yet financially > > stable company like WR. > > Can you - or somebody else who's in the know - maybe give some > background on WindRiver? I, for one, have never heard of them until > today (though admittedly that may indicate nothing but my own ignorance > ;-). Well, I've never done much realtime programming, but the main thing I think of when I hear the name Wind River is embedded and realtime programming. Their vxworks product is pretty much industry-standard realtime operating system. Although I haven't used them, I'm told their development tools are first class, especially when it comes to debugging threaded/realtime/etc. Here are some URLs you might find useful: http://www.wrs.com/ Company home-page. The normal PR stuff. http://www.wrs.com/press/html/bsdi.html Press release regarding BSDi software acquisition. http://www.wrs.com/press/html/bsdi_faq.html Frequently asked questions regarding the acquisition and intended relationships between WRS and {BSDi, FreeBSD, ...} http://www.wrs.com/products/html/families.html WRS product families web page. You can also find links to recordings of the two conference calls yesterday off of their front page. The first conference call includes slides, and was the "first announcement" targetted at WRS investors, analysists, and the media. The second was a FreeBSD-targeted call and largely consisted of fielding questions from the FreeBSD community. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 10:47: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0E137B440 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f35Hk7G81824; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010405170109.M64462@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:45:36 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Johann Visagie Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Apr-01 Johann Visagie wrote: >> Or of the Mars Pathfinder? > > I'm not _that_ insular. ;-) The pathfinder ran on a version of VxWorks. As does the probe that landed on an asteroid just recently, or so I have been told. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 11:25:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F98D37B443 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 11:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1395"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K21L5UO2380012OL@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:25:23 EDT Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 14:26:41 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: corporate announcement To: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3ACCB8E1.8B9D1014@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (All of this IMHO) When you think of it from a business point of view, what has happened is really interesting. Who would've imagined that what was known as Walnut Creek CDROM would end up being owned by a company like Wind River ! The first conference left me a mixed taste: on one hand, it seems like WR bought BSDi specifically for FreeBSD, OTOH it seems like they are only interested in complementing their existing technologies with FreeBSD, not really opening their other stuff. I dunno, I guess I'll take a look at the second conference for hints on what will happen. One thing I do wonder is if FreeBSD will target the embedded and realtime markets in a near future. Is the slogan still "The Power to Serve" ? Actually NetBSD has the embedded market pretty much covered up...OpenBSD might get a piece of the realtime market if RTMX finds it's way through..so maybe we should all just merge! ;) cheers, Pedro. Robert Watson wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Johann Visagie wrote: > > > Robert Watson on 2001-04-04 (Wed) at 18:53:07 -0400: > > > > > > I actually see the acquisition as an important opportunity for > > > positive change: many of the unreached goals of BSDi become far more > > > reachable with the help of a large, technically savvy yet financially > > > stable company like WR. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 15: 3:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6818237B422; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:03:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21338; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:03:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160153.00e5b4d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:03:01 -0600 To: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <20010405170109.M64462@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:45 AM 4/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >The pathfinder ran on a version of VxWorks. Yes. Though it was reported at the time that the system was unstable and had to be rebooted by a watchdog timer at regular intervals. Fortunately, the embedded system designers who created the probe were smart enough to build one in. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 15: 8:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6BE37B423 for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21402; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:08:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160346.00e5ae30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 16:08:08 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <3ACCB8E1.8B9D1014@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:26 PM 4/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >The first conference left me a mixed taste: on one hand, it seems like >WR bought BSDi specifically for FreeBSD, OTOH it seems like they are >only interested in complementing their existing technologies with >FreeBSD, not really opening their other stuff. I dunno, I guess I'll >take a look at the second conference for hints on what will happen. My personal take was that Wind River was interested in BSDi's embedded BSD technology rather than FreeBSD. FreeBSD merely makes it more likely that the BSD technology as a whole will continue to advance. >One thing I do wonder is if FreeBSD will target the embedded and >realtime markets in a near future. It wouldn't be to Wind River's advantage to push a free alternative to its own products. But it can't stop FreeBSD from being suitable for that purpose. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 15:18:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.122.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DCC137B43C for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f35MIpg90030; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:18:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Dan Langille Cc: Chris Dillon , Subject: Re: any knowledge of ponte.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-All-Your-Base: are belong to us MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Dan Langille wrote: > > Ok, what does that have to do with Dan Langille, who asked about it? > > I see absolutely no relation. > > I was hoping for other types of information, first hand experience > etc. Well, you could have explained just WTF it is :) Usually I treat "go look at this website www.blablah.com" as spam. Doug White | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 15:56:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A759937B43C; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA54986; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:56:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:56:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160153.00e5b4d0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:45 AM 4/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > >The pathfinder ran on a version of VxWorks. > > Yes. Though it was reported at the time that the system was > unstable and had to be rebooted by a watchdog timer at regular > intervals. Fortunately, the embedded system designers who created > the probe were smart enough to build one in. Heh, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to design a watchdog into any system that is sitting outside of easy reach, no matter how stable you think the operating system is. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 16: 2:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4385E37B443; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:02:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21998; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:02:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405170015.00c79410@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:02:29 -0600 To: Chris Dillon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160153.00e5b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:56 PM 4/5/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: >Heh, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to design a watchdog into any >system that is sitting outside of easy reach, no matter how stable you >think the operating system is. :-) I don't know how many admins I've met who admit to having locked themselves out of their own systems (usually via bad firewall rules). In many cases, they have had to drive miles to get to the system console. Of course, in the case of Pathfinder, it would have been a slightly longer drive. ;-) --Brett "Stupidity is like hydrogen; it's a basic building block of the universe." -- Frank Zappa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 16:32:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aphex.newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BFDE37B43C; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:32:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: from localhost (jmallett@localhost) by aphex.newgold.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f35NVvk24375; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Chris Dillon , John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405170015.00c79410@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Or morons like me who see a lot of zombie connections from dead ssh connections and type 'killall sshd' to clean them all up at once, forgetting that will kill the main daemon, as well as the current session. I really shouldn't be allowed to breed. hehe /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist +1 919 349 2976 www.newgold.net josephm@ohsmeg.com jmallett@newgold.net xMach: The proactively unbloated microkernel 4.4BSD-like operating system. www.xMach.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:56 PM 4/5/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > >Heh, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to design a watchdog into any > >system that is sitting outside of easy reach, no matter how stable you > >think the operating system is. :-) > > I don't know how many admins I've met who admit to having locked > themselves out of their own systems (usually via bad firewall > rules). In many cases, they have had to drive miles to get to the > system console. > > Of course, in the case of Pathfinder, it would have been a > slightly longer drive. ;-) > > --Brett > > "Stupidity is like hydrogen; it's a basic building block of the > universe." -- Frank Zappa > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 17:42:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2106B37B423; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 17:42:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA55895; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:42:52 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:42:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405170015.00c79410@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:56 PM 4/5/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > >Heh, you'd have to be pretty stupid not to design a watchdog into any > >system that is sitting outside of easy reach, no matter how stable you > >think the operating system is. :-) > > I don't know how many admins I've met who admit to having locked > themselves out of their own systems (usually via bad firewall > rules). In many cases, they have had to drive miles to get to the > system console. I've had to do that before. Luckily I only live 15 minutes from work. I'd set up a modem for out-of-band access, but I've got several boxes I'd want to do that with, and I can't tie up that many phone lines, and we can't afford a console server at the moment. I don't think a watchdog would help you out in that situation anyway. > Of course, in the case of Pathfinder, it would have been a > slightly longer drive. ;-) Who said anything about driving? :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 5 22:26:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B7C37B43E; Thu, 5 Apr 2001 22:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f365Pxh50791; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:25:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:25:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160153.00e5b4d0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:45 AM 4/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > >The pathfinder ran on a version of VxWorks. > > Yes. Though it was reported at the time that the system was unstable and > had to be rebooted by a watchdog timer at regular intervals. > Fortunately, the embedded system designers who created the probe were > smart enough to build one in. My understanding is that that was a result of an application bug rather than the OS, and had to do with a priority inversion. However, the article I read is pretty distant in my memory, so some references would no doubt be useful. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 0:55: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D62337B423; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25697; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:54:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406015339.0444f100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 01:54:50 -0600 To: Chris Dillon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405170015.00c79410@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:42 PM 4/5/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: >I don't think a watchdog would help you out in that situation anyway. It could. You could say, "If I don't connect in 5 minutes, flush all the firewall rules, fall back to a minimal set of daemons, and reboot." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 0:59: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AA137B43F; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 00:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25726; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:58:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406015658.04439ea0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 01:58:58 -0600 To: Robert Watson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160153.00e5b4d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:25 PM 4/5/2001, Robert Watson wrote: >My understanding is that that was a result of an application bug rather >than the OS, and had to do with a priority inversion. RTOSes are supposed to recognize and handle priority inversion problems. I think it was Jack Crenshaw who wrote about the algorithms for this in Embedded Systems programming not long ago. Of course, badly written applications can fail despite the OS's attempts to set things right.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 5: 2:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A18E37B446; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eischen@vigrid.com) Received: (from eischen@localhost) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) id IAA05078; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:02:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Eischen To: Robert Watson Cc: Brett Glass , John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 11:45 AM 4/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > >The pathfinder ran on a version of VxWorks. > > > > Yes. Though it was reported at the time that the system was unstable and > > had to be rebooted by a watchdog timer at regular intervals. > > Fortunately, the embedded system designers who created the probe were > > smart enough to build one in. > > My understanding is that that was a result of an application bug rather > than the OS, and had to do with a priority inversion. However, the > article I read is pretty distant in my memory, so some references would no > doubt be useful. Yes, it was an application bug. It failed to use an priority inheritence mutex (in VxWorks speak, an inversion safe semaphore). See: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/cs614-sp98/papers/pathfinder.html -- Dan Eischen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 7:47:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712C137B43E; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 07:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA64309; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:47:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:47:19 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Brett Glass Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: corporate announcement In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406015339.0444f100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:42 PM 4/5/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: > > >I don't think a watchdog would help you out in that situation anyway. > > It could. You could say, "If I don't connect in 5 minutes, flush > all the firewall rules, fall back to a minimal set of daemons, and > reboot." Yup. You wouldn't need hardware to do that, though. I could hack up a shell script to do that. I have, actually, on an old server with an lnc NIC that likes to go dead occasionally. It'll '/sbin/shutdown -r now' when it can't communicate with the outside world for a while. Not exactly the same, but it wouldn't be hard to replace the shutdown with an ipfw flush and a new ruleset in there, and to make sure certain daemons are running such as sshd. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For IA32 and Alpha architectures. IA64, PPC, and ARM under development. http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 11:26: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAF837B43C; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:26:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00614; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 12:25:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406122456.04446c40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 12:25:55 -0600 To: Chris Dillon From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: corporate announcement Cc: John Baldwin , Johann Visagie , , Dag-Erling Smorgrav In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010406015339.0444f100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:47 AM 4/6/2001, Chris Dillon wrote: >Yup. You wouldn't need hardware to do that, though. I could hack up >a shell script to do that. A software "dead man switch" can work too. A hardware one is advisable on mission-critical equipment that's really out of reach, though. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 11:31:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408A537B505 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1212"@[136.142.89.21]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K22ZO35RLY0015TH@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:31:44 EDT Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:33:10 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: corporate announcement To: Brett Glass Cc: Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3ACE0BE6.EDCAE731@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010405160346.00e5ae30@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:26 PM 4/5/2001, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > >The first conference left me a mixed taste: on one hand, it seems like > >WR bought BSDi specifically for FreeBSD, OTOH it seems like they are > >only interested in complementing their existing technologies with > >FreeBSD, not really opening their other stuff. I dunno, I guess I'll > >take a look at the second conference for hints on what will happen. > > My personal take was that Wind River was interested in BSDi's > embedded BSD technology rather than FreeBSD. FreeBSD merely makes > it more likely that the BSD technology as a whole will continue to > advance. > Well the conferences and PRs have mentioned FreeBSD much ore than BSD/OS. They surely have products than cn be compared to the embedded BSDi, but the could've just licensed them and use the FreeBSD code like everyone else does. > >One thing I do wonder is if FreeBSD will target the embedded and > >realtime markets in a near future. > > It wouldn't be to Wind River's advantage to push a free alternative > to its own products. But it can't stop FreeBSD from being suitable > for that purpose. > There is an interesting idea on www.lwn.net; perhaps they want simply to be able to compete with embedded linux, maintaining the marketshare is always a good choice. While it might not be good for them to make FreeBSD the perfect embeddable RT OS, it would be advantageous for them to have something better than Linux. Of course, what ever we talk here is mere especulation. cheers, Pedro. > --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 14:31:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E4437B423 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjensen@idiom.com) Received: (from cjensen@localhost) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA50292; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:31:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Colin Jensen Message-Id: <200104062131.OAA50292@idiom.com> To: brett@lariat.org Subject: Re: corporate announcement Organization: Unknown Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.3.2.7.2.20010406015658.04439ea0@localhost.unknown> Brett writes: >RTOSes are supposed to recognize and handle priority inversion problems. Actually they can't :-) There are two cases of mutex semaphores: 1. A task takes the semaphore before messing with a resource. Then the task releases the semaphore. Priority inversion protection is absolutely desirable. 2. One task takes a mutex before messing with something. A *different* task will finish with the messing and release the mutex. Priority inversion is a catastrophic mistake in this case. (And for those of you playing along at home, read the word "thread" wherever the word "task" is used in the context of vxWorks) In vxWorks, the programmer must deliberately choose which one to use. For the sake of backwards compatibility with older versions of vxWorks which didn't have priority inversion, failure to choose gives you choice #2. Ouch. Oh, and just for the sake of conspiracy theories, here's mine for why WRS wants BSD. They are losing marketshare to embedded linux. If they could use vxWorks as the realtime kernel underneath FreeBSD, the rich featureset of vxWorks's realtime API would kick RTLinux's butt. And unlike the Linux case, WRS won't have to give away their OS in order to do this. I'm not saying they would try to change the direction of FreeBSD.... it'd be more of a Darwin like parallel project. - Colin Jensen "Programming vxWorks targets from FreeBSD hosts for five years" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 14:40: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF1BA37B423 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:39:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010406213955.5283.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:39:55 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Linus vs Stevie http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5080813,00.html enjoy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 14:49:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.unixathome.org (ns1.unixathome.org [203.79.82.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9163837B423 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 14:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (dan@on-ott-ap3-05-26.look.ca [216.154.60.217]) by ns1.unixathome.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f36Lnle42361 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:49:48 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200104062149.f36Lnle42361@ns1.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:49:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Things happening in Ottawa Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been chatting to a few companies in Ottawa. I've found several of them who use BSD in one form or another. For the most part, they've been using NetBSD. For those that may not be aware, Ottawa is basically the Silicon Valley of the north. Every major player in IT has offices here. Nortel, Mitel, Cisco, Alcatel, and Nokia are just the signs I remember as I drove through last night. USA based companies are often here trying to recruit staff. At a job fair I attended yesterday (http://209.202.81.91/kodiakvp/careerfair/) there was a firm from New Hampsire who said they often came here to recruit. There's another job fair on Monday/Tuesday (http://brassring.ca/) and I'll have a hunt around and see who's using what... -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php got any work? I'm looking for some. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 15:38: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp10.phx.gblx.net (smtp10.phx.gblx.net [206.165.6.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280F737B424 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:38:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp10.phx.gblx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13006; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:37:59 -0700 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp10.phx.gblx.net, id smtpdraNKUa; Fri Apr 6 15:37:55 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05307; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:37:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200104062237.PAA05307@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons To: bzdik@yahoo.com (Bzdik BSD) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010406213955.5283.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> from "Bzdik BSD" at Apr 06, 2001 02:39:55 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Linus vs Stevie > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5080813,00.html The funniest part about this is that, with this statement, Linus has become to MacOS X what Andy Tannebaum was to Linux. Next, we'll probably hear Linus talk about how he "would give the programmers involved an ``F'' if they were my students". Heh. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 15:42:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D72737B423 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 19231 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Apr 2001 22:41:49 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:41:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: Terry Lambert Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, xMach Core Mailing List Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: <200104062237.PAA05307@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've seen Linus knock Mach before, seen him knock Minix, etc. Andy Tannenbaum was right to want to fail Linus. Linux has worse desiogn problems than Mach, and does more than just make up its own, it creates entirely new bad design concepts. But anyway, there's lots of times in the past where he's said things like this, and he loses arguments because he simply doesn't know enough to defend what he says. I think maybe a little too much "free beer", that, or he didn't quite grasp "that whole os d&i thing" to begin with. Mach had a bad design for the slower hardware it was originally designed on, this is true, but today, it isn't half bad. Though I suppose I am every bit as biased as Linus is, but at least I'll defend myself if need be. Anyway, just my $0.02 /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Linus vs Stevie > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5080813,00.html > > The funniest part about this is that, with this statement, > Linus has become to MacOS X what Andy Tannebaum was to > Linux. > > Next, we'll probably hear Linus talk about how he "would give > the programmers involved an ``F'' if they were my students". > > Heh. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 20:25:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5F0E37B43C for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 20:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f373PDP03645; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:25:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200104070325.f373PDP03645@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Message from Bzdik BSD of "Fri, 06 Apr 2001 14:39:55 PDT." <20010406213955.5283.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:25:13 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD writes: > Linus vs Stevie > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5080813,00.html Where was Stevie's part? Torvalds is doing his best at being a jerk. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 20:26:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B50437B42C for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 20:26:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 31286 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Apr 2001 03:26:07 -0000 Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:26:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: David Kelly Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: <200104070325.f373PDP03645@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No, if he was doing his best, he'd actually make up some of the ways Mach managed to mess up. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, David Kelly wrote: > Bzdik BSD writes: > > Linus vs Stevie > > > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5080813,00.html > > Where was Stevie's part? > > Torvalds is doing his best at being a jerk. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 20:53:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-236.knology.net [24.214.76.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0629737B422 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 20:53:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f373qdP04404; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:52:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200104070352.f373qdP04404@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: Message from Joseph Mallett of "Fri, 06 Apr 2001 23:26:07 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 22:52:39 -0500 From: David Kelly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett writes: > No, if he was doing his best, he'd actually make up some of the ways Mach > managed to mess up. The author of the article contributed his part and demonstrated Linux bias by presenting everything Torvalds said as the bald truth. I don't know of any Mac users (myself included) who care what Torvalds says about MacOS X any more than they/we care about what Bill Clinton says about it. Author is looking to incite riots, not present facts. "Torvalds' comments promise to upset not just Apple fans..." then 2 paragraphs down presented it as accomplished fact, "The remarks will particularly sting Apple..." As a computer geek, I find it funny. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 6 21:33:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (durham0-128.dsl.gtei.net [4.3.0.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BF9CF37B63E for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 21:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 15838 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Apr 2001 04:33:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:33:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Mallett To: David Kelly Cc: Bzdik BSD , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Clash of Titans - Tale of two Morons In-Reply-To: <200104070352.f373qdP04404@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, Linus didn't really say much about OS X/Apple, he was more or less saying that mach is crap (actually, those are pretty much his exact words) and that apple was stupid for building on top of it. Of course, he's a guy who almost failed an OS Design class, so maybe his opinion doesn't matter As someone working on a Mach-based OS, I found his lack of information/clue to be funny. /joseph -- Joseph Mallett Security Specialist jmallett@newgold.net www.newgold.net irc.newgold.net/#xMach xMach Core Team jmallett@xMach.org www.xMach.org On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, David Kelly wrote: > Joseph Mallett writes: > > No, if he was doing his best, he'd actually make up some of the ways Mach > > managed to mess up. > > The author of the article contributed his part and demonstrated Linux > bias by presenting everything Torvalds said as the bald truth. I don't > know of any Mac users (myself included) who care what Torvalds says > about MacOS X any more than they/we care about what Bill Clinton says > about it. > > Author is looking to incite riots, not present facts. "Torvalds' > comments promise to upset not just Apple fans..." then 2 paragraphs down > presented it as accomplished fact, "The remarks will particularly sting > Apple..." > > As a computer geek, I find it funny. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 11:27: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns3.tstt.net.tt (ns3.tstt.net.tt [196.3.132.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98D8637B423 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 11:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dchulhan@uwi.tt) Received: (qmail 123846 invoked by uid 0); 7 Apr 2001 18:26:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO uwi.tt) (209.94.221.149) by ns3.tstt.net.tt with SMTP; 7 Apr 2001 18:26:56 -0000 Message-ID: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:26:53 -0400 From: Dale Chulhan - Home Organization: COSTAATT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following is part of some cross fire passing tru another news group: Any comments? =================== Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows 2000/NT are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel architecture, UNIX uses a monolithic kernel. That is why you have to recompile/reload the kernel when you add a driver. This is unlike Windows 2000 where drivers can be loaded and unloaded automatically. In fact, you can change IP Addresses on Windows 2000 and you do not need to reboot. This is also very unlike most versions of UNIX. The technology in the Windows 2000 Operating System is standards based, not stolen from the UNIX OS. IPSec, VPN, Kerberos are all technologies that are standards based. Have you ever heard of RFCs? In fact, the Windows interface was a Xerox idea that Apple "borrowed" and was handed to Microsoft on a silver platter. Do you know how long after that the first windows version of UNIX came up? In fact they even chose to call it X-Windows. Today, of all the mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the slowest Windows interface. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 11:55:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C42937B43C for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 11:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA77998; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 20:55:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Apr 2001 20:55:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: Dale Chulhan - Home's message of "Sat, 07 Apr 2001 14:26:53 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0802 (Gnus v5.8.2) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dale Chulhan - Home writes: > The following is part of some cross fire passing tru another news group: > Any comments? Not much, except: > Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows > 2000/NT are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel > architecture, UNIX uses a monolithic kernel. Unix does not use a monolithic kernel. Most Unix implementations do, but there's no reason why you couldn't implement Unix on top of a microkernel, and in fact, Apple have done just that with OS X. > That is why you have to recompile/reload the kernel when you add a > driver. This is unlike Windows 2000 where drivers can be loaded and > unloaded automatically. Most modern Unix implementations (including Linux, FreeBSD and Solaris) can load and unload drivers without needing to recompile the kernel or even reboot. > In fact, you can change IP Addresses on Windows 2000 and you do not > need to reboot. This is also very unlike most versions of UNIX. No Unix implementation I know of has ever needed to reboot to change the IP address. > In fact, the Windows interface was a Xerox idea that Apple > "borrowed" and was handed to Microsoft on a silver platter. Do you > know how long after that the first windows version of UNIX came up? > In fact they even chose to call it X-Windows. Today, of all the > mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the slowest Windows > interface. That's because X runs in user space, not in kernel space like Windows' GUI does - which is why if X crashes, it doesn't bring down the entire machine with it. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 12:40:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-26-235-186.mmcable.com [65.26.235.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF80937B42C for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 92804 invoked by uid 100); 7 Apr 2001 19:40:24 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15055.27944.187865.22558@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:40:24 -0500 To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) In-Reply-To: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dale Chulhan - Home types: > The following is part of some cross fire passing tru another news group: > Any comments? After picking myself up off the floor from laughing so hard, yes. > Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows > 2000/NT are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel > architecture, UNIX uses a monolithic kernel. The speaker doesn't seem to be very familiar with Unix. Some Eunices use a monolithic kernel. Not all of them do. Apple's OSX, for instance, is based on the Mach micro kernel. Thanks to the clean seperation of the APIs (which Windows is missing), it's relatively easy to mix-n-match these things on Unix. > That is why you have to recompile/reload the kernel when you add a > driver. This is unlike Windows 2000 where drivers can be loaded and > unloaded automatically. It's been quite a while since any serious Unix required you to recompile & reload the kernel to add every driver. Some drivers may still require that, and you may want to do that for performance reasons, but it's no longer strictly required. > In fact, you can change IP Addresses on Windows 2000 and you do not > need to reboot. This is also very unlike most versions of UNIX. This is unlike *any* version of Unix I've ever seen. That includes all the mainstream ones for the last 20 years, and a fair number of the less well-known ones. I'd be interested in knowing which version of Unix is that braindead. > The technology in the Windows 2000 Operating System is standards > based, not stolen from the UNIX OS. IPSec, VPN, Kerberos are all > technologies that are standards based. Have you ever heard of RFCs? I'm not familiar with the history of IPSec and VPN, but Kerberos was developed for Unix. IIRC, MS even ported the Unix code. The GNU people like to point at MS doing that as a reason to avoid BSD-like licenses in favor of the GPL. MS also did their usual thing, and didn't *quite* implement the standard. They extended it in ways that they are working very hard to keep closed, in order to force users to buy their servers instead of someone elses. Many of the standards documented in the RFCs were first developed on Unix systems. Try cross-matching the names of the RFC authors with the names of the implementors of the Unix versions. Nuts - the C socket API that every C implementation I know of uses was developed for Unix. > Do you know how long after that the first windows version of UNIX > came up? IIRC, Apple introduced the Mac during the '84 SuperBowl, which would be January, 84. MS just barely beat them to the punch with MS Windows 1.0 (though basically nobody ever used it), so call it sometime in '83. The first Unix based system I know of that had windowing was SunOS, which showed up in February '82. So Unix had a windowing system a full year before MS did. If you only count windowing systems that enough of the platforms users used to make it a market preferable to the underlying OS, then SunOS did that from day one, but MS had to wait until MS Windows 3.0 in around '92, meaning Unix was there a decade before MS. > In fact they even chose to call it X-Windows. No, the did *not* call it X-Windows. Sun's first generation windowing system was called SunView. Later ones were called SunDEW, then NeWS, and later OpenWindows. Even what you're thinking of isn't called "X-Windows". The list of names the X Consortium ask people to use are "X", "X Window System", "X Version 11", "X Window System, Version 11" and "X11". Their documentation calls it the "X Window System", *never* "X Windows". I'm not sure when X was first shipped with a Unix system. Since it was at version 10 as of '85 when I first ran into it, it wouldn't surprise me if it was in distribution before MS's Windows 1.0 as well. > Today, of all the mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the > slowest Windows interface. I can say with equal truth that of all the mainstream Operating Systems - and most of the minor ones - Windows has the least user friendly interface. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 14:29:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1739437B422 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12988; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:29:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407152644.0455d9b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 15:28:45 -0600 To: Mike Meyer , Dale Chulhan - Home From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group In-Reply-To: <15055.27944.187865.22558@guru.mired.org> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 PM 4/7/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >I'm not familiar with the history of IPSec and VPN, but Kerberos was >developed for Unix. IIRC, MS even ported the Unix code. The GNU people >like to point at MS doing that as a reason to avoid BSD-like licenses >in favor of the GPL. Actually, it's a great reason NOT to use the GPL. I'd hate to see what sort of abomination Windows users would be stuck with if Microsoft had not been able to adopt Kerberos. Microsoft's relatively minor change to Kerberos -- similar to the minor one they made to PPP/CHAP -- was quickly accommodated by the industry and caused no major problems (just annoyance). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 14:36:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70CA37B423 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f37La2q07499; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:36:02 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:35:57 +0200 To: Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:26 PM -0400 4/7/01, Dale Chulhan - Home wrote: > Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows > 2000/NT > are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel architecture, UNIX uses > a > monolithic kernel. Micro kernels are not the be-all and end-all of OS design. They can work well, or they can work poorly. It all depends on the implementation. Frankly, the implementation of Windows NT is by a bunch of poorly paid amateur programmers who were consultants "bought" and treated as little more than code-monkeys, put through the mill, and then when they got to whining too loudly about not being paid enough or being required to work too much overtime hours, they got their contracts dropped. Having a revolving door of contractors that never stay there longer than a few months is not a really good way of developing an OS. It's not the fault of the programmers that Windows NT (and all of its derivatives) is so badly screwed up. This is what Microsoft wanted, and they made sure to hire the people who were ignorant and inexperienced enough to do precisely that. > That is why you have to recompile/reload the kernel > when > you add a driver. Most versions of *nix I am familiar with allow you to build a static kernel image with drivers included, or to dynamically load drivers as they are required. There are advantages to both methods, and anyone that categorically rules out one or the other is simply doing so out of stupidity and ignorance. > This is unlike Windows 2000 where drivers can be > loaded > and unloaded automatically. In fact, you can change IP Addresses on > Windows > 2000 and you do not need to reboot. This is also very unlike most > versions > of UNIX. I do not know of a single version of *nix that has ever existed in the history of time (at least, those that have had an IP stack) that could not have the IP address of an interface changed and not require rebooting. To the best of my knowledge, this whole "change and reboot" thing is something that Microsoft invented with their OSes, because they always assumed that these things were done once and once only, and only on boot. The fact that it's taken Microsoft this long to be able to handle changing an IP address without rebooting the machine (and that you consider this such an important issue) is a clear indication that you have smoked way too many recreational pharmaceuticals, as distributed and given away by certain people of questionable intent from Redmond. > The technology in the Windows 2000 Operating System is standards based, > not > stolen from the UNIX OS. IPSec, VPN, Kerberos are all technologies that > are > standards based. Indeed, these are all standard technologies. They were designed and built on *nix OSes first, and only lately has Microsoft taken them up and tried to proprietarize them so as to make them work in a Microsoft way on only Microsoft OSes, and lock out the rest of the world. > Have you ever heard of RFCs? Indeed, I have. Do you know what "RFC" stands for? Do you know the history of RFCs, and how the Internet was built? Do you know the history of how Unix was invented? > In fact, the Windows > interface > was a Xerox idea that Apple "borrowed" and was handed to Microsoft on a > silver platter. Xerox PARC definitely invented the windowing interface, with mice and all that. Yes, indeed, that is true. However, it took the Macintosh to popularize that interface and bring it to the rest of the world -- Xerox got their cut as a stockholder in Apple. Later, Microsoft realized how important the windowing interface was, and effectively put a shotgun to the head of Steve Jobs and said "We won't develop any applications (which they had a stranglehold on) or port BASIC to the Macintosh, nor will we continue to allow you to ship BASIC for the Apple II series, if you don't license your windowing technology to us". This is a known and undisputed fact. Indeed, this was just the first widely recognized use of Microsoft's monopoly powers in an attempt to rape and pillage whatever technologies they wanted from whomever they wanted. Later, Microsoft was even stupid enough to put down in writing things like this, and then have their sales representatives deliver those messages to the CEOs and CTOs of Fortune 100 companies. > Do you know how long after that the first windows > version of > UNIX came up? In fact they even chose to call it X-Windows. Uh, no. There were many windowing interfaces for versions of Unix back in the late 1980's and early 1990's, of which the X Window System was just one (MIT has a copyright on this technology, and they insist that you use either that term spelled and capitalized precisely as I have done, or you simply call it "X"). I recall a presentation at the Winter 1990 USENIX technical conference on a windowing system called "W", which I believe was either a contemporary of "X", or may have been a precursor. You really need to research your facts before you spout off. > Today, of > all > the mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the slowest Windows > interface. In what context? Do you have a windowing interface that will allow the program to run on one machine, allow the complex display portion to be run across the network on a different machine (perhaps halfway around the world), and have all that be controlled from a third machine that may itself be half-way around the world? Do you even know where the concept for "thin client" came from, and what led to the development of "Windows Terminals"? Let me ask a question -- does Windows 2000 handle multiple users simultaneously logging into the same machine now? Windows NT sure couldn't -- it may have had protected memory, multi-threading, and multi-processing (which it was really, really bad at), but it was still a single-user OS. Can you administer every aspect of the machine without being forced to log into the graphical console? Just how many copies of PC Anywhere do you still need? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 14:39:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7800537B424 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 903F618D28; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:39:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f37Lda287401; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:39:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:39:36 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Message-ID: <20010407163936.B87371@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:55:41PM +0200 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 08:55:41PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Dale Chulhan - Home writes: > > The following is part of some cross fire passing tru another news group: > > Any comments? > > Not much, except: > > > Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows > > 2000/NT are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel > > architecture, UNIX uses a monolithic kernel. > > Unix does not use a monolithic kernel. Most Unix implementations do, > but there's no reason why you couldn't implement Unix on top of a > microkernel, and in fact, Apple have done just that with OS X. And just to add, Windows NT does not use a microkernel architecture, either. It is a hybrid, which is now more like a monolithic OS. It is a reasonable trade-off of performance and modularity, though ultimately most decisions were made in favor of performance. See _Inside NT_ by Helen Custer. Hmm, actually I see there is now a 2nd edition, named _Inside Windows NT_. > > Today, of all the > > mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the slowest Windows > > interface. Actually, I find the X Windows interface quite a bit snappier than any version of Windows on the same hardware. Clearly, YMMV. Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 14:44:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [208.42.49.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785E137B424 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:44:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from hamlet.nectar.com (hamlet.nectar.com [10.0.1.102]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2C918D38; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:44:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by hamlet.nectar.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f37LiJK87413; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:44:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:44:19 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Meyer , Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Message-ID: <20010407164419.C87371@hamlet.nectar.com> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> <15055.27944.187865.22558@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010407152644.0455d9b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407152644.0455d9b0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:28:45PM -0600 X-Url: http://www.nectar.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:28:45PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Microsoft's relatively minor > change to Kerberos -- similar to the minor one they made to PPP/CHAP -- > was quickly accommodated by the industry and caused no major problems > (just annoyance). It is still causing operational difficulties that I would classify as more than an annoyance. See the ietf-krb mailing list archives. Certain GSS-API applications are broken, and unfortunately many Windows applications are written with assumptions that don't hold when a non-Microsoft KDC is involved. The industry will _never_ adopt some of these modifications -- they are very Microsoft/ActiveDirectory specific. Other modifications are still fiercely debated. Nonetheless, I applaud Microsoft for adopting Kerberos. This is something they promised that they would do back in 1993, and I seriously think that ultimately it will make the world a better place :-) Cheers, -- Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / jvidrine@verio.net / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 15:31: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from backup.enteract.com (backup.enteract.com [207.229.143.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D25537B424 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f37MUa158466; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 17:30:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 17:30:36 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-Sender: dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 7 Apr 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: : Uh, no. There were many windowing interfaces for versions of :Unix back in the late 1980's and early 1990's, of which the X Window :System was just one (MIT has a copyright on this technology, and they :insist that you use either that term spelled and capitalized :precisely as I have done, or you simply call it "X"). : : I recall a presentation at the Winter 1990 USENIX technical :conference on a windowing system called "W", which I believe was :either a contemporary of "X", or may have been a precursor. X is decended from W, which came from Stanford. I don't know the dates for it, but X dates from 1984. See http://www.rahul.net/kenton/gettys10.html which is a post made on the 10th aniversary of X in 1994. David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 16:15:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4DA37B423 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 16:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13594; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 17:15:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010407171448.00e2be00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 17:15:26 -0600 To: Brad Knowles , Dale Chulhan - Home , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) In-Reply-To: References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:35 PM 4/7/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, this whole "change and reboot" > thing is something that Microsoft invented with their OSes, because > they always assumed that these things were done once and once only, and > only on boot. The fact that it's taken Microsoft this long to be able > to handle changing an IP address without rebooting the machine (and > that you consider this such an important issue) is a clear indication > that you have smoked way too many recreational pharmaceuticals, as > distributed and given away by certain people of questionable intent > from Redmond. Indeed. (See the sig below.) --Brett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? [OK] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 7 21:43:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smurftarget.net (netwarriors.org [216.34.142.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34B537B42C for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from loki@smurftarget.net) Received: from loki by smurftarget.net with local (Exim 3.20 #1) id 14m72b-000HUu-00; Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:43:09 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:43:09 -0700 From: Jonas Luster To: Dale Chulhan - Home Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , My List , The Trinidad and Tobago Microsoft BackOffice Users Group Subject: Re: Win NT vs UNIX ( cross fire ) Message-ID: <20010407214309.A67182@netwarriors.org> References: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ACF5BED.86A4FB58@uwi.tt>; from dchulhan@uwi.tt on Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:26:53PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dale Chulhan - Home sez: > Any comments? Some.. > Dick, Windows NT was based on VMS not UNIX. In fact UNIX and Windows The fact that Microsoft bought some VMS developers helped to the kernel as we know it today, true, but get the scoop on what some developers did after Microsoft tried to mutilate the very idea of VMSs architecture... > 2000/NT are very different. Windows uses a micro kernel architecture, > UNIX uses a monolithic kernel. That is why you have to Not quite right. While some "mainstream" Unices or pseudo-Unices use monolithic kernels, this is not a requirement. The HURD or Darwin, e.g. use microkernels. Also the differences between Microkernel and monolithic kernel are somewhere else, not in the realm of 'reload to load'. > recompile/reload the kernel when you add a driver. This is unlike Most modern Unices support 'loadable' kernel modules. > Windows 2000 where drivers can be loaded and unloaded automatically. The forced reboots in Windows (and there are quite a few more than under modern Unices, most machines I know have Uptimes somewhere in the high onehundreds and were booted exactly once...) stem from Microsofts 'better safe than sorry' Ideology and not from an inherent need. In 2000 MS simply added some new fallback mechanisms making some reboots unnecessary. > In fact, you can change IP Addresses on Windows 2000 and you do not > need to reboot. This is also very unlike most versions of UNIX. I do not know of a single Unix needing a reboot to change IP-Adress or similar parameters. Unix IP stacks are quite happy with being introduced to different configuartions on the fly. Under Windows (!Win2K) this concept would work, too, but MS elected to not activate configurations until reboot. > The technology in the Windows 2000 Operating System is standards > based, not stolen from the UNIX OS. IPSec, VPN, Kerberos are all > technologies that are standards based. Have you ever heard of RFCs? In Microsoft did a great job in bastardizing/mutilating (they call it 'extending') Standards until interoperability is guaranteed. Take, for an example, your list above. Kerberos was developed at MIT and not in Redmond, Microsoft took it and ... BAMM. For some overview visit http://www.thestandard.com and type "Kerberos" in the search box. IPSec has been the most misunderstood standard ever, sure as heck, Microsoft managed to misunderstand it even more and ... BAMM. I will not get into the deeps of VPNs and what Microsoft did to this concept (VPN is a concept, not a standard, btw.) As for RFCs - in all my years of computing I've rarely come across individuals, let alone companies so 'anti-RFC'. Take, for example, Outlook and compare its behavior and output to common standards and RFCs. You'll be surprised. Fact is, there is no world outside heterogenous Windows-Network when it comes to the Redmond mindset. > fact, the Windows interface was a Xerox idea that Apple "borrowed" and > was handed to Microsoft on a silver platter. Do you know how long PARC indeed developed the first prototypes of a windowing system (as well as the mouse, btw.) but it was not Microsoft who picked it up. Have an Apple, while you rethink this statement :). Rumor has it, Redmonds developers actually had some REALLY cool ideas on how to make Win1 look and react, but Bill insisted on something "more Apple than Apple itself". > after that the first windows version of UNIX came up? In fact they > even chose to call it X-Windows. Today, of all X is named either 'X', 'X11', 'X11R{version}' or 'the X Window System', but never 'X-Windows'. > the mainstream Operating Systems, UNIX still has the slowest Windows > interface. Again, not quite true, but I'll leave the benchmarking to you :). As a hint: check out NeXTs 'Postscript Display' and compare X11R6 on a 486 to Windows 95's GUI while moving opaque windows. I've seen both redraw/refresh codes and find it hard to believe you :) Hope that clarifies it a bit, Jonas -- "Python is executable pseudocode. Perl is executable line noise" -- Bruce Eckel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message