From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 24 3:23:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E9B37B405 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 03:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5OANS626019 ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:23:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id MAA15779 ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:24:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:24:30 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , Anton Berezin , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010624122430.B15588@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Terry Lambert , Mike Meyer , Anton Berezin , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 02:51:48AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 24, 2001 at 02:51:48: > Rahul Siddharthan writes: > > > > I happen to think that Terry is wrong, and you can write perfectly > > > > readable code in Perl. I even hope some day to see an example. > > fortune candidate? > > Hmm, I think it's a paraphrase of a Mark Twain quote, which probably > already is in the fortune database. Actually, now you mention it, it's vaguely reminiscent of "From the moment I picked up your book to the moment I put it down, I couldn't stop laughing. Some day I hope to read it." -- Groucho Marx to Leon Rotsky Possibly Twain also, who knows. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 24 4:59:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5E837B401 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 04:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5OBxXp31612 ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:59:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id OAA18873 ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:00:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:00:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010624140035.G15588@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15155.47930.698005.428088@guru.mired.org> <200106222151.OAA28766@usr06.primenet.com> <20010623133910.E71218@lpt.ens.fr> <20010624122430.B15588@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010624122430.B15588@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:30PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Jun 24, 2001 at 12:24:30: > > Hmm, I think it's a paraphrase of a Mark Twain quote, which probably > > already is in the fortune database. > > Actually, now you mention it, it's vaguely reminiscent of > > "From the moment I picked up your book to the moment I put it down, I > couldn't stop laughing. Some day I hope to read it." > -- Groucho Marx to Leon Rotsky ^^^^^^ I guess that may be "Trotsky". Picked it off Google, so I don't know. I've seen the quote in several other places, but never with the victim mentioned. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 24 19:52:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B06A37B405 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26281 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:54:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:54:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: winDriver selling fbsd Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just typed in www.bsdi.com since I hadn't been there in a while and ended up at windriver.com or wrs.com as its now know. Much to my suprise, FreeBSD is not listed in the product listing. Only BSD/OS appears. Am I mistaken, or wasn't windriver supposed to now be distributing Freebsd since they acquired it from bsdi who merged with walnut creek? To add insult to injury, I got an email from windriver apologizing for the 'slow' response to freebsd orders blaming their sluggishness on bsdi's ordering system. You can't blame lack of fbsd being listed on lack of product line either. windriver sells everything but the kitchen sink-and of course fbsd! Has anyone checked to see if these clowns are owned by microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 24 21:44:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5449E37B401 for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:44:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA85344; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:44:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Kevin Lyons Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Jun 2001 06:44:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> Message-ID: Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kevin Lyons writes: > I just typed in www.bsdi.com since I hadn't been there in a while and ended > up at windriver.com or wrs.com as its now know. Much to my suprise, > FreeBSD is not listed in the product listing. Only BSD/OS appears. > Am I mistaken, or wasn't windriver supposed to now be distributing > Freebsd since they acquired it from bsdi who merged with walnut creek? What's the problem, is www.freebsdmall.com currently offline, or does your browser just not work properly? > To add insult to injury, I got an email from windriver apologizing for > the 'slow' response to freebsd orders blaming their sluggishness on bsdi's > ordering system. How do you know that's not the plain truth? > Has anyone checked to see if these clowns are owned by microsoft? I wouldn't stoop so low as to call you an idiot in a public forum, but I'd have a hard time contradicting anyone who did. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 6:34:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25B6837B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5PDYWp42912 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:34:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA69770 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:35:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:35:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:44:06AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 25, 2001 at 06:44:06: > Kevin Lyons writes: > > I just typed in www.bsdi.com since I hadn't been there in a while and ended > > up at windriver.com or wrs.com as its now know. Much to my suprise, > > FreeBSD is not listed in the product listing. Only BSD/OS appears. > > Am I mistaken, or wasn't windriver supposed to now be distributing > > Freebsd since they acquired it from bsdi who merged with walnut creek? > > What's the problem, is www.freebsdmall.com currently offline, or does > your browser just not work properly? There's no link (at least, I couldn't find one) to www.freebsdmall.com from www.bsdi.com (or www.wrs.com). The FreeBSD web page/handbook includes links to other suppliers under "Getting FreeBSD", but not to www.freebsdmall.com. So it's not obvious how someone unaware of freebsdmall is to learn about its existence. I think the comment is quite valid, in any case. Why isn't FreeBSD listed in the main product listing at www.wrs.com, when 83 other products are? > > To add insult to injury, I got an email from windriver apologizing for > > the 'slow' response to freebsd orders blaming their sluggishness on bsdi's > > ordering system. > > How do you know that's not the plain truth? > > > Has anyone checked to see if these clowns are owned by microsoft? > > I wouldn't stoop so low as to call you an idiot in a public forum, but > I'd have a hard time contradicting anyone who did. How to make friends and increase the userbase. Methinks many people are excessively touchy about any WindRiver-related question. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 6:57: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EE237B407 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5PDuSO21947; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:56:29 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:56:32 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:35 PM +0200 6/25/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I think the comment is quite valid, in any case. Why isn't FreeBSD > listed in the main product listing at www.wrs.com, when 83 other > products are? That's a good question. First off, they don't sell FreeBSD itself. BSDi didn't sell FreeBSD itself. Walnut Creek didn't sell FreeBSD itself. What they all have sold (and WindRiver continues to sell) are certain products related to FreeBSD. One of which is a four-CD set, including the standard FreeBSD first CD (the ISO image for which is freely available on the 'net), plus three more proprietary CDs that they've put together. Other products include the FreeBSD Handbook, and the Complete FreeBSD book by Greg Lehey. Moreover, if you go to the FreeBSDmall site, it is clear that they have now been bought by WindRiver, and there's even a FAQ page, etc.... In addition, if you recall recent discussions on this list regarding an e-mail message that WindRiver recently sent out to a lot of people registered through FreeBSDmall, it should be fairly clear that they consider this the place where FreeBSD and FreeBSD-related stuff is sold. Looking at the WindRiver home page, I don't see either BSD/OS or FreeBSD anywhere on the page, except on the last "news" item dated Apr-04-2001, regarding their acquisition of the software assets of BSDi (among others). It's not until you go down to the exhaustive alphabetical product directory at that I can find any mention of BSD/OS as a product. The only thing I can assume is that since they don't consider themselves to be selling FreeBSD per se, but instead products related to FreeBSD (which happens on the same FreeBSDmall site that has been in use for a while), they figured they either didn't need, or that it wouldn't be appropriate to have, FreeBSD itself listed as a product of the company. Or maybe it just accidentally slipped through the cracks. > Methinks many people are excessively touchy about any WindRiver-related > question. There may be some that fit that definition. Overall, I'd have to say that the attitude is more one of "Hey, give 'em a break, at least for a while". -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:16:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB70237B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5PEGKp50592 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:16:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA71630 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:17:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:17:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625161724.C69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 03:56:32PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 25, 2001 at 15:56:32: > That's a good question. First off, they don't sell FreeBSD > itself. BSDi didn't sell FreeBSD itself. Walnut Creek didn't sell > FreeBSD itself. What they all have sold (and WindRiver continues to > sell) are certain products related to FreeBSD. That's a nitpick. It's like saying Red Hat doesn't sell Linux, but a CD set relating to Linux. > Moreover, if you go to the FreeBSDmall site, it is clear that > they have now been bought by WindRiver, and there's even a FAQ page, > etc.... In addition, if you recall recent discussions on this list > regarding an e-mail message that WindRiver recently sent out to a lot > of people registered through FreeBSDmall, it should be fairly clear > that they consider this the place where FreeBSD and FreeBSD-related > stuff is sold. If they consider it so, they should have a link on their webpage, surely? I can't find one, either in "Products", or in "Support", or in "Partners". I mean, you'd hardly call StarOffice Sun's flagship product (and they too bought it, they didn't create it) but they do mention it on their main page. Likewise, if you go to IBM and click on software and then on OS, you find a mention of linux, though it's not in any sense one of "their" products. Is it too much to expect Wind River to at least mention FreeBSD on their own web page? > There may be some that fit that definition. Overall, I'd have to > say that the attitude is more one of "Hey, give 'em a break, at least > for a while". True. But I don't think the correct reaction is to call the questioners idiots. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:22: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E9237B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA86995; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:21:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:21:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 44 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Jun 25, 2001 at 06:44:06: > > What's the problem, is www.freebsdmall.com currently offline, or does > > your browser just not work properly? > There's no link (at least, I couldn't find one) to www.freebsdmall.com > from www.bsdi.com (or www.wrs.com). So why aren't you flaming the hell out of BSDI for this heinous crime? Because BSDI has "BSD" in their name, while WRS have "Win" in theirs? > The FreeBSD web page/handbook includes links to other suppliers under > "Getting FreeBSD", but not to www.freebsdmall.com. So it's not > obvious how someone unaware of freebsdmall is to learn about its > existence. I have to admit that's a glaring omission, but is it WindRiver's fault? Do they control the contents of the handbook? No. Submit a patch, and I'll commit it. > I think the comment is quite valid, in any case. Why isn't FreeBSD > listed in the main product listing at www.wrs.com, when 83 other > products are? Is FreeBSD a WindRiver product? Think hard about that one. If they *had* listed FreeBSD on their products page, you'd likely as not sit there flaming them for having the arrogance to pretend they owned the project. Fucked if they do, fucked if they don't. They probably learned from the debacle that followed BSDI's uncarefully worded press release, which the trade press misquoted as "BSDI has acquired FreeBSD", and decided they'd better tread carefully. > Methinks many people are excessively touchy about any WindRiver-related > question. Methinks WindRiver should be given a fighting chance to show us they mean well and try hard (which I believe they do) instead of being flamed and slandered for every little move they make that somebody somewhere doesn't like. The only thing Kevin, you, and others like you will achieve by acting like this is to convince WRS that FreeBSD is more trouble than it's worth, and where would we be then? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949FF37B407 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5PESfp52090 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:28:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA72114 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:29:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:29:45 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:21:47PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So why aren't you flaming the hell out of BSDI for this heinous crime? > Because BSDI has "BSD" in their name, while WRS have "Win" in theirs? It doesn't concern me. (Though, yes, I think "windriver" is a terrible name.) > > The FreeBSD web page/handbook includes links to other suppliers under > > "Getting FreeBSD", but not to www.freebsdmall.com. So it's not > > obvious how someone unaware of freebsdmall is to learn about its > > existence. > > I have to admit that's a glaring omission, but is it WindRiver's > fault? Do they control the contents of the handbook? No. Submit a > patch, and I'll commit it. I'd prefer to commit a patch to something I know about (I've done that occasionally). I don't know anything about freebsdmall beyond what's there on the web page. If you think it's a "glaring omission" maybe you can commit it yourself? > Methinks WindRiver should be given a fighting chance to show us they > mean well and try hard (which I believe they do) instead of being > flamed and slandered for every little move they make that somebody You misunderstand me: I'm not flaming WindRiver (though maybe Kevin was). I don't particularly care if they sell FreeBSD directly or if they link to FreeBSDMall. I'm objecting to your language in defending WindRiver. I think Kevin had a point which you didn't answer in that mail, though you answer it here (ie, why is there no mention of FreeBSD on their web page?), and calling him an idiot doesn't help anyone. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:30:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526D637B406 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA87039; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:30:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Brad Knowles , Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625161724.C69225@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:30:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010625161724.C69225@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Brad Knowles said on Jun 25, 2001 at 15:56:32: > > That's a good question. First off, they don't sell FreeBSD > > itself. BSDi didn't sell FreeBSD itself. Walnut Creek didn't sell > > FreeBSD itself. What they all have sold (and WindRiver continues to > > sell) are certain products related to FreeBSD. > That's a nitpick. It's like saying Red Hat doesn't sell Linux, but a > CD set relating to Linux. Bad analogy. RedHat have a *lot* more control and influence over the distro they sell (and even the Linux kernel itself) than either WC or BSDI ever had over FreeBSD. > True. But I don't think the correct reaction is to call the > questioners idiots. I did not! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:56:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.solveinteractive.com [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4363437B407 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Received: by tsunami.acidpit.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 027F3143; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:56:30 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:29:45 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 25, 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > The FreeBSD web page/handbook includes links to other suppliers under > > > "Getting FreeBSD", but not to www.freebsdmall.com. So it's not > > > obvious how someone unaware of freebsdmall is to learn about its > > > existence. > > > > I have to admit that's a glaring omission, but is it WindRiver's > > fault? Do they control the contents of the handbook? No. Submit a > > patch, and I'll commit it. /usr/share/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/book.html I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there as well. http://www.freebsd.org/ Seek bottom-left, I'm pretty sure that's a link to the freebsdmall. Granted, I'm fighting a summer-cold at the moment, so it's possible I'm missing a piece to this puzzle, but currently I just "see" what you don't see. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 7:57:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1165637B401 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA87158; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:57:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Kevin Lyons , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:56:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > I think Kevin had a point which you didn't answer in that mail, > though you answer it here (ie, why is there no mention of FreeBSD on > their web page?), and calling him an idiot doesn't help anyone. Hey, come on, I most explicitly did *not* call him an idiot :) And if I had, it would have been for his comment about Microsoft's alleged ownership of WindRiver, which was nothing but spiteful, childish name-calling. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 8: 3:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D61537B407 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5PF3Sp56460 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:03:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id RAA73947 ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:04:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:04:31 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Robert Hough Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625170431.E69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Robert Hough , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org>; from rch@acidpit.org on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:56:30AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Hough said on Jun 25, 2001 at 10:56:30: > /usr/share/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/book.html > I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there. > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html > I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there as well. > http://www.freebsd.org/ > Seek bottom-left, I'm pretty sure that's a link to the freebsdmall. > Granted, I'm fighting a summer-cold at the moment, so it's possible I'm > missing a piece to this puzzle, but currently I just "see" what you > don't see. The problem is this: you go to www.freebsd.org, you see a menu item on the left saying "Getting FreeBSD". (That's the only such link on the page.) Click on that, you go to http://www.freebsd.org/availability.html which has a section "where to get it" and a line "For more information on obtaining FreeBSD, please see..." Again, that's the only such link there. Click on that, and you reach http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/mirrors.html which has no mention of FreeBSDMall. As you say, other handbook sections do seem to mention it. But that's not what you reach by clicking in the obvious places. As to the thing at the bottom left of www.freebsd.org: that looks like a banner add which many people like me are trained to filter out subconsciously :) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 8: 5:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2447C37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5PF5Kn49643 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:05:21 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:05:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: US checking accounts for non-US residents Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you need a SSN in order to open an account. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 8:30:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D04D37B401 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1034"@[136.142.20.174]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K56KNI46MA002EH6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:30:08 EST Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:32:00 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3783A0.5E83F80D@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You just need a passport. The SSN is usually required for paying taxes; when I opened my account they only asked for my passport. cheers, Pedro. Dan Langille wrote: > > Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not > residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you > need a SSN in order to open an account. > > -- > Dan Langille > pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 9:24:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2E3637B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.anderson@windriver.com) Received: from peale.wrs.com (peale [147.11.36.41]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA05706; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:23:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010625091425.032334a0@mail.wrs.com> X-Sender: jasona@mail.wrs.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:24:04 -0700 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Robert Hough From: "Jason S. Anderson" Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010625170431.E69225@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org> <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think there are a few good observations in all of this, particularly about what is the 'right' way for Wind River (not winDriver or windriver :) to position or link to FreeBSD content from the web. A few things I have a hard time disagreeing about: - It's not right to have bsdi.com simply redirect to the BSD/OS product page. That's an oversimplification, and a partial lack of internal education about what 'bsdi' represents. I've already sent a note to the webmaster, so that should be remedied. (How, I don't quite know yet.) - Reactions to the customer emailing earlier this week have been pretty varied, ranging from "thank you for contacting me!" to "what gives you the right?". That seems statistically consistent, and overall the response has been very positive, but it doesn't mean that we can't learn from and improve over time. - No, Wind isn't owned by Microsoft. I think I can hear the shivers from all of the engineers from my desk... :) I know that lots of people are taking a wait-and-see approach with the whole Wind/FreeBSD thing; I think I speak for many folks when I say that we very much appreciate that. The important thing to take away from this particular thread, though, is that nothing is set in stone: if there's something about web sites or the way that Wind is dealing with you that bothers you, it is absolutely your right and _responsibility_ to let people know. The only way that integrations (and relationship-building in general) works is through open and honest communication. My $0.02, -Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 10: 5:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corserv.corserv.com (corserv.corserv.com [206.180.159.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923EA37B406 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from klyons@corserv.corserv.com) Received: (from klyons@localhost) by corserv.corserv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26858; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:06:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from klyons) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:06:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Kevin Lyons Message-Id: <200106251706.MAA26858@corserv.corserv.com> To: des@ofug.org, rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, klyons@corserv.corserv.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You misunderstand me: I'm not flaming WindRiver (though maybe Kevin > was). I don't particularly care if they sell FreeBSD directly or if > they link to FreeBSDMall. I'm objecting to your language in defending > WindRiver. I think Kevin had a point which you didn't answer in that > mail, though you answer it here (ie, why is there no mention of > FreeBSD on their web page?), and calling him an idiot doesn't help > anyone. I didn't intend to flame windriver. But I was suprised and disappointed at not having fbsd listed on their site. And yes, they did not acquire freebsd. However, semanitcs aside, they are the primary distribution means just like bsdi was and walnut creek were. I've been using fbsd for 4 years and have alsways been able to tell friends and colleauges to go to bsdi or walnut creek to get the cds. I would have expected their successor to do the same, but then I'm not in marketing..maybe the plan is to increase distribution of fbsd through obscurity. As far as the idiot comment goes...I've read too many of das emails to be offended by anything he writes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 12:25:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81DF637B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from si@chemicalterrorism.com) Received: from freebsd.demon.co.uk ([194.222.171.207] helo=chemicalterrorism.com) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15Ec1L-000Ae3-0U for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:27:54 +0100 Received: from pain (pain.chemicalterrorism.com [192.168.0.3]) by chemicalterrorism.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 83FC6F490 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:24:10 +0100 (BST) From: "Si" To: Subject: CVS Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:24:10 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Not strictly FreeBSD related but could any of you direct to any documents on using CVS. I've gone through the man page but would welcome your experience on using CVS in the real world, any procedures you've grown in-house and any pit falls you've avoided. Thanks, Si. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 15:10:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD51F37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r31.bfm.org [216.127.220.127]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:14:42 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010625171013.00e46e20@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:10:13 -0500 To: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:05 2001-06-25 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: >Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not >residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you >need a SSN in order to open an account. I did, though it was some 20 years ago. I was in the US on a student visa. I walked into a bank and opened a checking account. I kept it open even after I returned to Europe. Two years later I became a US resident. Only then did I close the account. You only need a SSN if you are a US tax payer as the banks are required to report your interest and things like that to tax authorities. And to them, you are but a number. Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 17:12:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 834A737B401 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 29623 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Jun 2001 00:08:27 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Wes Peters , Mark Valentine , Adam , Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? In-Reply-To: <61645.993509224@critter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > *Cough*Wollongong*cough*hack*wheeze* (THUD!) What are the odds anyone on this group remembers Wollongong? Hell, mention Whitesmiths C Compiler, and people look at you like christians having hinduism explained to them. [moved to -chat] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 17:49:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E243E37B406 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5Q0mSY12505; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:48:28 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 02:48:13 +0200 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" , Poul-Henning Kamp From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Cc: Wes Peters , Mark Valentine , Adam , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:08 PM -0400 6/25/01, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: >> *Cough*Wollongong*cough*hack*wheeze* (THUD!) > > What are the odds anyone on this group remembers Wollongong? Hell, mention > Whitesmiths C Compiler, and people look at you like christians having > hinduism explained to them. I remember Wollongong quite well. Indeed, if you look on the "DNS Resources Directory: Server Software: NetWare, OS/2, VMS, and others" page at , you will note that I reported on interoperability with the Wollongong TCP/IP and DNS implementation many years ago. I wasn't even a Vax/VMS System Manager, although I did have an account on the first Vax/VMS system (a MicroVax II) at the Defense Communications Agency to have TCP/IP software installed on it. This was the admin server used by some friends of mine (who were the Vax/VMS System Managers for the Agency) in a completely different branch, and they were kind enough to give me an account on the system. In return, I helped them test out the TCP/IP implementation with the Unix boxes I had. After these tests were successful, they went on to install Wollongong on all their unclassified machines (and I presume the classified systems, too). And, as long ago as that was (early '90s, but certainly before 1994), it still wasn't even the first Vax/VMS system I had ever encountered. No, that honor would have to go to the Vax/VMS system that was operated by the College of Arts & Sciences at the University of Oklahoma. This machine's primary advantage was that it was on BITNET, so it had better connectivity to the outside world than the machines run by the College of Engineering (the undergrads were allowed to use a PDP 11/70 running something like BSD 2.9, while the honored few grad students got an account on the Vax 11/750 running BSD 4.something). Of course, I also had a slightly ulterior motive for getting an account on the Vax/VMS system -- it had Moria, which was much better than the alternative for Unix (I can't even remember the name of the pale Unix rip-off). IIRC, we're talking something like 1986. Heck, I wouldn't be too surprised to find that a majority of people on this list weren't even born until after 1986. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 17:57:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from newgold.net (newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF69A37B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmallett@newgold.net) Received: (qmail 4206 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Jun 2001 00:53:53 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:53:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Joseph A. Mallett" X-X-Sender: To: Brad Knowles Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , Mark Valentine , Adam , Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Oklahoma. This machine's primary advantage was that it was on > BITNET, so it had better connectivity to the outside world than the > machines run by the College of Engineering (the undergrads were > allowed to use a PDP 11/70 running something like BSD 2.9, while the > honored few grad students got an account on the Vax 11/750 running > BSD 4.something). Of course, I also had a slightly ulterior motive IIRC 2.11BSD has been patched up until 2000 or 1999 (and patches may still be coming out for all I know)... it's amazing how much longevity the PDP 11 has had, and particularly BSD on PDP 11. I think 2.11 BSD came out at the same time as 4BSD... I am probably wrong? Time to check a quarter century of unix, or history of unix @ berkeley. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 18:18:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chmls20.mediaone.net (chmls20.mediaone.net [24.147.1.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C365B37B407 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tadayuki@mediaone.net) Received: from photoniii (h0005025b549e.ne.mediaone.net [24.147.117.91]) by chmls20.mediaone.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5Q1Ij619756 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:20:06 -0400 From: Tadayuki OKADA To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My new job Message-Id: <20010625212006.4b86dc83.tadayuki@mediaone.net> In-Reply-To: <200106252308.f5PN8qQ28753@winston.osd.bsdi.com> References: <200106252308.f5PN8qQ28753@winston.osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.4.66 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.3) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am one of the Wind River employee. It's unfortunete that Jordan is leaving us. # I hope he just wanted to work for Apple. By the way, can we expect QuickTime player for FreeBSD? :-) On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:08:52 -0700 (PDT) Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Those who've been following my writings about and general enthusiasm > for Apple's OS X lately also won't be surprised by the news that I'm > going to work for Apple Computer. -- Tadayuki OKADA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 19:15:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C77C37B401 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 19:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1728"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5776N7FVO00256D@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:15:28 EST Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:25:33 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: My new job To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B37F29D.42479DF4@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200106252308.f5PN8qQ28753@winston.osd.bsdi.com> <20010625212006.4b86dc83.tadayuki@mediaone.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm glad for Apple, for FreeBSD, and of course for Jordan. No doubts the critics will find something obscure in all this, they must be temporarily short of ideas cause it hasn't hit Slashdot yet :). I'm somewhat worried about Wind River, but well...I do trust they will continue the process they seem to have started. Pedro. Tadayuki OKADA wrote: > > I am one of the Wind River employee. > It's unfortunete that Jordan is leaving us. > # I hope he just wanted to work for Apple. > > By the way, can we expect QuickTime player for FreeBSD? :-) > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:08:52 -0700 (PDT) > Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > > Those who've been following my writings about and general enthusiasm > > for Apple's OS X lately also won't be surprised by the news that I'm > > going to work for Apple Computer. > > -- > Tadayuki OKADA > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 23:41:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13605.mail.yahoo.com (web13605.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0D6837B405 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010626064147.72701.qmail@web13605.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13605.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:41:47 PDT Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:41:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: My new job To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B37F29D.42479DF4@pitt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > I'm glad for Apple, for FreeBSD, and of course for Jordan. > > No doubts the critics will find something obscure in all this, they > must be temporarily short of ideas cause it hasn't hit Slashdot yet > :). An institutional trader frined called me today and asked:"What has that dude they just hired done that Apple stock is going up?" Pretty soon we'll see Jordan on CNBC ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 25 23:56: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.sasknow.com (ren.sasknow.com [207.195.92.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2C437B406 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:56:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by ren.sasknow.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA28043; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:55:51 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:55:51 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Anton Berezin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: SaskNow Technologies [www.sasknow.com] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote to Anton Berezin: > Anton Berezin writes: > > perl -pe 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' out > > > > Like this, you mean? ;-) > > This is perfectly understandable. It copies its input less any > duplicate lines (even if they don't immediately follow the first > occurrence - uniq(1) can't do this). > > DES Classic problem with this is, even if you can understand it (or at least figure it out in less than a minute or so) who the hell could hazard a guess at the efficiency of that "algorithm"? (Before going to the trouble of testing it on a few million lines). I bet it isn't O(n) ;-) Maybe you could guess, but you'd have to have a conventional algorithm in head (or, one step further, in code), to recant the efficiency of a well-written duplicate removal function. Then, you have to ask the question... In terms of final algorithmic results, is 's,.,,sg if $_{+lc}++' "well-written"? Or does it turn into some ghastly memory-greedy exponential function? I suppose this is all irrelevant... Most competent Perl programmers avoid things like this in reusable code, anything that requires any amount of testing, and anything where efficiency might be a factor. Who can duplicate the dupe removal algorithm in Prolog? :-) - Ryan <-- programs in Perl and admits it too -- Ryan Thompson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 0:47:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2481037B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA90931; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:47:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Ryan Thompson Cc: Anton Berezin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Jun 2001 09:47:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 28 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ryan Thompson writes: > Classic problem with this is, even if you can understand it (or at least > figure it out in less than a minute or so) who the hell could hazard a > guess at the efficiency of that "algorithm"? (Before going to the trouble > of testing it on a few million lines). I bet it isn't O(n) ;-) I strongly suspect it's O(n*log(k)), where k is the number of distinct lines in the input. In most cases k will probably be a significant fraction of n, so call it O(n*log(n)). > Maybe you could guess, but you'd have to have a conventional algorithm in > head (or, one step further, in code), to recant the efficiency of a > well-written duplicate removal function. Then, you have to ask the > question... In terms of final algorithmic results, is 's,.,,sg if > $_{+lc}++' "well-written"? Or does it turn into some ghastly memory-greedy > exponential function? There are two ways you could improve it. The first is to replace s,.,,sg (which was picked for obscurity, not efficiency) with $_="", which is both quicker and shorter. The other (not possible in Perl) is to keep only the hash value of each previously seen line, and discard the actual line to conserve memory. With a good hash function, the likelihood of finding two distinct input lines that hash to the same value should be pretty low (though non-zero). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 3:12:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arb.arb.za.net (arb.arb.za.net [196.7.148.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4B837B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (root@graft.grondar.za [196.7.18.141]) by arb.arb.za.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f5QACQ154197; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:12:29 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200106261012.f5QACQ154197@arb.arb.za.net> To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents References: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> In-Reply-To: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> ; from "Dan Langille" "Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:05:18 -0400." Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:15:16 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not > residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you > need a SSN in order to open an account. Get a US drivers license. That gets you a SSN. M -- Mark Murray Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 4:12:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5CE37B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:12:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@krivis.com) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5QBCg114981 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:12:36 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Message-ID: <2345943.993539550@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> References: <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]> <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0b1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Both MS Office 98 and 2001 run perfectly well as Classic apps. Given that I only use Office when someone sends me a file in that format, this is more than adequate. --On Saturday, June 23, 2001 9:59 AM -0400 Robert Hough wrote: > On Sat, Jun 23, 2001, Stuart Krivis wrote: >> >> In the meantime, I still have a unix machine that I can run MS Office on. > > There's an OS X port of Office, or are you referring to vmware or some > such? > > -- > Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 4:43: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C5137B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 04:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5PJwmx01050; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:58:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:58:47 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Robert Hough , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: winDriver selling fbsd Message-ID: <20010625205847.B341@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200106250254.VAA26281@corserv.corserv.com> <20010625153535.A69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625162944.D69225@lpt.ens.fr> <20010625105630.A47491@acidpit.org> <20010625170431.E69225@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="MfFXiAuoTsnnDAfZ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010625170431.E69225@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:04:31PM +0200 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --MfFXiAuoTsnnDAfZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:04:31PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Robert Hough said on Jun 25, 2001 at 10:56:30: > > /usr/share/doc/en_US.ISO_8859-1/books/handbook/book.html > > I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there. > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/index.html > > I clearly see a link to the freebsdmall there as well. > > http://www.freebsd.org/ > > Seek bottom-left, I'm pretty sure that's a link to the freebsdmall. > > Granted, I'm fighting a summer-cold at the moment, so it's possible I'm > > missing a piece to this puzzle, but currently I just "see" what you > > don't see. >=20 > The problem is this: you go to www.freebsd.org, you see a menu item on > the left saying "Getting FreeBSD". (That's the only such link on the > page.) > Click on that, you go to > http://www.freebsd.org/availability.html Not any more. This now goes to the Handbook "Obtaining FreeBSD" section. Comments about the website and documentation are *much* better served by sending them to the -doc list (or, better yet, sending them as PRs). I tend to skim -chat at the best of times, so this feedback could have been lost. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --MfFXiAuoTsnnDAfZ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjs3l/UACgkQk6gHZCw343XwyQCdHEuVeZw56hGzM70nSI22GmXe HWsAn3e5lj8AqEX8nkzf82kqZBKEKfgt =8+mh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --MfFXiAuoTsnnDAfZ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 5:17:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA4837B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f5QBXwE01076; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:33:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:33:58 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010626073358.D795@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org>; from dan@langille.org on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:05:18AM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 25 June 2001 at 11:05:18 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: > Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not > residing in the USA? Yes. > How did you do it? Went into the bank, gave a local address (of a friend), and opened the account. > From what I can tell, you need a SSN in order to open an account. They were a bit confused that I didn't have one, but they got over it. I've had the account for 8 years now, and they won't give me a credit card because of the lacking SSN, but apart from that it works fine. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 6: 1:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.pace.edu (ntutil.pace.edu [205.232.111.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0120037B40C; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from js43064n@pace.edu) Received: from stmail.pace.edu (205.232.111.7:2168) by smtp.pace.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.A8A73AC9@smtp.pace.edu>; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 9:01:14 -0400 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:01:12 -0400 Message-Id: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jonathan Slivko" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: , Subject: So what happens to FreeBSD now? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, So what happens to FreeBSD now that your going to work for Apple? Is it just going to disappear slowly, but surely? or are you still going to be active in the project? --Jonathan _____________________________________________ Jonathan M. Slivko Technical Support, Black Lotus Communications http://www.blacklotus.net -- check us out! _____________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ ___ Sent via the Pace University Mail system at stmail.pace.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 7:26:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31AAE37B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15EtnM-000A3C-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:26:24 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5QEQNq78555 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:26:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:26:23 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' Message-ID: <20010626152623.B78438@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems that much of the business world is heading toward selling software as a service, or, more importantly, making services available to local applications. Can Unix in general fit into this plan? Obviously Sun, IBM and others have alternatives to the Microsoft plan, but will open source be able to get involved? Does FreeBSD need to consider this, or is it a layer above the OS, like Java, XML, Perl, etc, which already exist? What about a Common Runtime Library for FreeBSD, so it can act as a .NET server, if and ONLY if the concept takes off? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 7:39:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579E637B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reed@reedmedia.net) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15Eu01-0004LH-00; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:39:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:39:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Jonathan Slivko Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-Reply-To: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jonathan Slivko wrote: > So what happens to FreeBSD now that your going to work for Apple? > Is it just going to disappear slowly, but surely? or are you still > going to be active in the project? --Jonathan I asked him a few questions: http://www.bsdtoday.com/2001/June/News509.html Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 8:28:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4527F37B401; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:28:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f5QFSY526599; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:28:34 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:28:34 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dan Langille , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010626082834.B24759@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> <20010626073358.D795@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010626073358.D795@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 07:33:58AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 07:33:58AM -0400, Greg Lehey wrote: > > From what I can tell, you need a SSN in order to open an account. >=20 > They were a bit confused that I didn't have one, but they got over > it. I've had the account for 8 years now, and they won't give me a > credit card because of the lacking SSN, but apart from that it works > fine. You may have to try more then one bank. While non-intrest bearing accounts don't need a SSN for reporting, they do use them for a "cross check" system which is supposed to catch things like people who notice massive bank error in their favor, with draw all the money from their account, and deposit it in another bank. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7OKohXY6L6fI4GtQRApvDAKCChqFM1xa95/pf4Oltlf3SUUg8GACg5WQE eZSR620/WGBcpaMl4U9AG4E= =0d/y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tsOsTdHNUZQcU9Ye-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 8:42:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D531237B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5QFfQt32299; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: js43064n@pace.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-Reply-To: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:41:26 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 8 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD will continue just fine and I will also continue to be involved - as my posting said, I'm not going to stop anything I'm currently doing, I'll just have a little less time than I did before. Seeing as I'm also a lot *happier* now than I was before, I expect it to be a wash in the end since even with less time, a happier engineer is a more productive one. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 8:45:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49F7837B406 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3mc) with ESMTP id KAA00626; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:45:22 -0500 (CDT) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id KAA13372; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:45:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:45:21 -0500 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010626104521.B13238@winternet.com> Mail-Followup-To: Jordan Hubbard , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>; from jkh@osd.bsdi.com on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 08:41:26AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org When do you start your new position? Congratulations! Nathan Jordan Hubbard wrote: > FreeBSD will continue just fine and I will also continue to be > involved - as my posting said, I'm not going to stop anything I'm > currently doing, I'll just have a little less time than I did before. > Seeing as I'm also a lot *happier* now than I was before, I expect it > to be a wash in the end since even with less time, a happier engineer > is a more productive one. :) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Nathan Ahlstrom / nra@NetBSD.org / nra@FreeBSD.org / GPG: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 9:50:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A57D837B406; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C612F8229; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:50:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:50:02 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Brooks Davis Cc: Greg Lehey , Dan Langille , Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <20010626082834.B24759@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Brooks Davis wrote: : :You may have to try more then one bank. While non-intrest bearing :accounts don't need a SSN for reporting, they do use them for a "cross :check" system which is supposed to catch things like people who notice :massive bank error in their favor, with draw all the money from their :account, and deposit it in another bank. : The IRS has a procedure to provide a taxpayer number (called an ITIN) to non-resident foreign nationals not eligible for a SSN. They're quite happy to take taxes from anyone who cares to pay them. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 9:50:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4884237B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1252"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K581QNLQHY003QQZ@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:50:35 EST Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:00:44 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B38BFBC.E94EE925@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200106251505.f5PF5Kn49643@lists.unixathome.org> <20010626073358.D795@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Uncle Sam likes money so if you are legally working or studying in the US it's easy to get a SSN. In my case the INS came to the University and with a simple letter from the employer (in this case office of international services) they assigned it. I've heard that there are so many illegal Colombians in the US lately that they created something called a "Tax ID" just so this theoretically illegal people pay taxes. OTOH, paying taxes is not nice and I hate credit cards, so I use a checking account which let's me buy stuff just like a VISA card. Pedro Greg Lehey wrote: > ... > > > From what I can tell, you need a SSN in order to open an account. > > They were a bit confused that I didn't have one, but they got over > it. I've had the account for 8 years now, and they won't give me a > credit card because of the lacking SSN, but apart from that it works > fine. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 11:35:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [64.211.219.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E36837B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA20129; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:35:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAyYaOoN; Tue Jun 26 11:35:34 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28998; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:38:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200106261838.LAA28998@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' To: jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org (j mckitrick) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:37:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010626152623.B78438@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> from "j mckitrick" at Jun 26, 2001 03:26:23 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It seems that much of the business world is heading toward selling software > as a service, or, more importantly, making services available to local > applications. > > Can Unix in general fit into this plan? Obviously Sun, IBM and others have > alternatives to the Microsoft plan, but will open source be able to get > involved? Does FreeBSD need to consider this, or is it a layer above the > OS, like Java, XML, Perl, etc, which already exist? What about a Common > Runtime Library for FreeBSD, so it can act as a .NET server, if and ONLY if > the concept takes off? It's a "last mile" problem. As network links become faster, it makes sense to outsource some infrastructure components. This permits you to have ubiquitous access to your data, regardless of where you are accessing from. One thing I really hate about the dialup ISP convergence to a few providers is that it is occuring before the local small ISP's were able to build out their "last mile" infrastructure. This means that it will probably be a long time before we see final completion of the "last mile" sufficient to host all software services. Another thing I hate about it is that it's becoming harder, not easier, to obtain ubiquitous access to your data. The premiere example of this is email; email is the "killer application" for the Internet: it's point-to-point, human-to-human communication, and that's what humans want, above all else. No one expected the telephone system to turn out the way it has, and, likewise, no one expected the post office to turn out how it has. Cell phones have grown at an incredible rate, while all the "content" that people intended to push down cell phone lines has failed to find willing buyers. In the United States last yesr, people spent as much on telephone calls to other people -- more than a quarter of a trillion dollars -- than the U.S. Government spent on all defense spending, combined. Most of the "converged" ISP's currently out there today offer SMTP relay, a POP3 maildrop, DNS forwarding, and maybe access to an NNTP server, and some other not-very-useful "services", like the ability to have a small home page hosted on their servers (this is generally intended as a loss-leader for up-sell to more hosting services at a later date). This is woefully inadequate: the POP3 protocol was not designed to operate in such a way as to permit multipoint access: once you download your mail, it's stuck at whatever access point you downloaded to at the time, and leaving the mail on a POP3 server is not an adequate answer, any more than keeping a copy of it on your work system -- thus opening your private email to legally permitted monitoring of content -- is adequate... or reasonable. Systems like HotMail fail to address a lot of basic issues. If you read the terms of service oon HotMail, even if you are paying them for their "premium" service, they have no obligation to not drop the email on the floor. This is unsurprising: they do not commit the email to stable storage before acknowledging it to the sender via the "250 Accepted for delivery" SMTP response to the correct termination of a "DATA" command. Instead, the mail ends up in a RamDisk, and you had better hope the power does not fail on that single system. What this means is that, while it's a good idea in many cases to want to outsource certain infrastructure components, even the most basic, minimal service which you _must_ have to be considered to be "on the Internet" -- email service -- isn't really safely outsourceable with the current infrastructure. You would _never_ bet your business on HotMail, or OneBox, or BigMailBox, or Yahoo Mail (formerly RocketMail), etc.. Until these services can achieve the reliability of the telehone, and that includes your link into the service provider, they are not capable of replacing on-site business infrastucture. Some products address these issues. I have a (currently on hold) set of software that takes a first stab at the email problems, and, I think, does a sufficient job of addressing them... but not to the extent of being able to make "the last mile" reliable. With redundancy (e.g. a dialup to ensure that, should you lose your DSL, you can still get in and get your email), if there are telephone-level-reliability guarantees to the service, then it may even make sense in the face of a "last mile" outage to outsource: at least your mailbox will be reachable to your customers, when a "last mile" outage would in fact otherwise render you "off the net" with a local server. It may even be that, with continued power problems, this would become a preferred model. But there are other business barriers which you would have to overcome, apart from the reliability and trust angles. Should ".NET" become a reality, then it will be no time at all before it is reengineered in Open Source. The components are already there (Xerces, or XML4C++ from IBM's "AlphWorks", and other "glue code" is trivial to write to obtain the minimal required functionality). Companies will not win based on closed standards -- we learned that during the Cold War, and we're not going to make the same mistake again, when it comes to our critical infrastructure. I personally think that it's very unlikely that people wll trust Microsoft, or any single vendor with their data. That approach to getting ubiquitous access will fail, without strong cryptographic guarantees on the privacy of your data, and its inaccessability to other -- including the hosting service. It will be a long time before Sun's "The Network IS The Computer" can turn into Microsoft's "The Network Is The Storage Device". All IMO, of course. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 12: 3:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A1A37B40A for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5QJ3RY16090; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:03:27 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:44:31 +0200 To: Jordan Hubbard , js43064n@pace.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:41 AM -0700 6/26/01, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > FreeBSD will continue just fine and I will also continue to be > involved - as my posting said, I'm not going to stop anything I'm > currently doing, I'll just have a little less time than I did before. > Seeing as I'm also a lot *happier* now than I was before, I expect it > to be a wash in the end since even with less time, a happier engineer > is a more productive one. :) I, for one, believe that both FreeBSD and Apple will benefit greatly by this change. Apple will benefit, because it will have a higher-profile advocate that is better known and better respected by the open source community, and this will help demonstrate the depth of their commitment to Unix. FreeBSD will benefit because it will have an even stronger and more visible supporter of the freely available OS, in the form of Apple. The rest of us will benefit, because we'll finally get a desktop OS with the full power and robustness of Unix, but with enough desktop penetration that it will be able to actually deliver on being able to run the standard business applications that most companies really care about. This is something that even Linux hasn't quite yet been able to deliver on. IMO, MacOS X isn't yet at a place where I feel that I can use it as my everyday desktop OS -- there is still too much work left to do in the form of various drivers (especially Lucent/Agere WaveLAN/Orinoco cards ;-). However, knowing that Jordan will be working on both MacOS X and FreeBSD, I have a lot more confidence that these problems will be fixed on a more reasonable timeframe. So, what time today should we start seeing measurable benefit from this move? ;-) -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 12:28:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-13.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF07E37B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@obsecurity.org) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EB48F66C3C; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:28:45 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathan Slivko Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu>; from js43064n@pace.edu on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:01:12AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:01:12AM -0400, Jonathan Slivko wrote: > Jordan, >=20 > So what happens to FreeBSD now that your going to work for Apple?=20 > Is it just going to disappear slowly, but surely? or are you still=20 > going to be active in the project? --Jonathan I'm not sure how you formed this speculation. Meaning no disrespect to Jordan, his contributions to the FreeBSD OS are tiny compared to the efforts of the rest of the developer team as a whole. FreeBSD evolved beyond the point where one person carries the project a very long time ago. Kris --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7OOJtWry0BWjoQKURAh4ZAJ0W2j3wTK10VYa+k1sw5/nuJx1SsQCdHfbm I8SlyXFAkCSvpd9LNYV6h9M= =b5JN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CE+1k2dSO48ffgeK-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 12:36:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C431337B407 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15EydC-000EwX-00; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:36:14 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5QJaDt85331; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:36:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:36:13 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' Message-ID: <20010626203613.A85164@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010626152623.B78438@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <200106261838.LAA28998@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <200106261838.LAA28998@usr05.primenet.com>; from tlambert@primenet.com on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 06:37:35PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | Until these services can achieve the reliability of the telehone, | and that includes your link into the service provider, they are | not capable of replacing on-site business infrastucture. Hmm. Good point. Interestingly, a recent article claimed software itself will someday become like a utility. | Should ".NET" become a reality, then it will be no time at all | before it is reengineered in Open Source. The components are | already there (Xerces, or XML4C++ from IBM's "AlphWorks", and | other "glue code" is trivial to write to obtain the minimal | required functionality). Companies will not win based on closed | standards -- we learned that during the Cold War, and we're not | going to make the same mistake again, when it comes to our critical | infrastructure. IIUC, MS plans to use these open standards to create .NET, but it will only work well if there are MS Win2k boxes from start to finish. Apparently, some of the collaboration features of Office will (already?) follow a similar model: every link in the chain must be running IIS. This sounds like a creative version of 'embrace, extend, extinguish,' but they are starting with their own standards! | I personally think that it's very unlikely that people wll trust | Microsoft, or any single vendor with their data. That approach I agree. Their track record here is dismal. But how many office executives care? 'I just want my PalmPilot to sync my Access and Excel documents without having to worry about it....' jcm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 13:15:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA6237B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 20C1A7567; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0381D8F; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mark Murray Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <200106261012.f5QACQ154197@arb.arb.za.net> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mark Murray wrote: :> Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not :> residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you :> need a SSN in order to open an account. : :Get a US drivers license. That gets you a SSN. No, it does not. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 13:38: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.osd.bsdi.com (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63D537B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5QKaht33230; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@osd.bsdi.com) To: kris@catonic.net Cc: js43064n@pace.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-Reply-To: References: <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010626133643X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:36:43 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 25 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Grumble. They gave me "jordanh@apple.com" instead; I'm trying to fix that. :) - Jordan From: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:25:46 +0000 (GMT) > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > > FreeBSD will continue just fine and I will also continue to be > > involved - as my posting said, I'm not going to stop anything I'm > > currently doing, I'll just have a little less time than I did before. > > Seeing as I'm also a lot *happier* now than I was before, I expect it > > to be a wash in the end since even with less time, a happier engineer > > is a more productive one. :) > > So when do we get to see you posting as jkh@apple.com? :) > > ----- > Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | > ------------------------------------------------------- > "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 13:39: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hda.hda.com (host65.hda.com [63.104.68.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DF037B406 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5QKYIP65021; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:34:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dufault) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <200106262034.f5QKYIP65021@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Staying *really stable* in FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <200106260115.SAA02837@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> from "Rodney W. Grimes" at "Jun 25, 2001 06:15:45 pm" To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jkh@osd.bsdi.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL61 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Moreover, I know a man which says that the last Really Stable release > > > was 1.1.5.1. > > > > Ah, tell Rod I said Hi! ;-) > > You told him yourself... :-) Hi Jordan, and good luck in the > new job with Apple! Huh? I've got to stop working so much, I missed this one. Jordan, please force Sony to port Everquest to the Mac so I can dump the Windows system the kids use. I always suspected you were Steve Jobs's younger brother with hair. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Fail-Safe systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 13:45:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B2F37B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5QKgUm02785; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:42:30 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:42:30 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:28:45PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 12:28:45PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:01:12AM -0400, Jonathan Slivko wrote: > > So what happens to FreeBSD now that your going to work for Apple?=20 > > Is it just going to disappear slowly, but surely? or are you still=20 > > going to be active in the project? --Jonathan >=20 > I'm not sure how you formed this speculation. Meaning no disrespect > to Jordan, his contributions to the FreeBSD OS are tiny compared to > the efforts of the rest of the developer team as a whole. FreeBSD > evolved beyond the point where one person carries the project a very > long time ago. Traffic on the mailing lists (or, at least, average message size) might drop a bit though :-) N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjs487UACgkQk6gHZCw343VDWwCfWVaiqRKpcb19KepVl+LLnm7/ QX0AnibhiK3D8fO+FkyL9bpsivEbmVYq =Vq2I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pZs/OQEoSSbxGlYw-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 13:53:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAD637B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 529947573; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF631D8F; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: kris@catonic.net, js43064n@pace.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-Reply-To: <20010626133643X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: :Grumble. They gave me "jordanh@apple.com" instead; I'm trying :to fix that. :) First name last initial? Does Apple have so few employees that that actually works? Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 14:48: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66D837B405; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA61867; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:47:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:47:56 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Nik Clayton Cc: Kris Kennaway , Jonathan Slivko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:42:30PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:42:30PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > I'm not sure how you formed this speculation. Meaning no disrespect > > to Jordan, his contributions to the FreeBSD OS are tiny compared to > > the efforts of the rest of the developer team as a whole. FreeBSD > > evolved beyond the point where one person carries the project a very > > long time ago. > > Traffic on the mailing lists (or, at least, average message size) might > drop a bit though :-) Hey, he said he still has 20 hours a week for FreeBSD! That's an awful lot of email. :) Seriously, the one post I'd have any concern about is the "FreeBSD Spokesman" that Jordan has been basically filling. It's not an official title by any means, but if one of us press sorts wants a quote on FreeBSD, we generally call Jordan. I'm sure that Jordan will still be happy to spout off about anything, though. We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. Having "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, Greg Lehey for the job. ;) (/me looks for incoming fire from Australia, and ducks) -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 15: 1:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80A5337B435 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010626220124.LVQS23388.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:01:24 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010626173359.017a9318@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:35:14 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent In-Reply-To: <2345943.993539550@[192.168.1.60]> References: <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]> <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "Classic app?" Is this referring to legacy (i.e., pre-Mac OS X) applications? At 07:12 AM 6/26/2001, Stuart Krivis wrote: >Both MS Office 98 and 2001 run perfectly well as Classic apps. Given that >I only use Office when someone sends me a file in that format, this is >more than adequate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 15: 2: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8293737B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:02:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1561"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K58CMTGEOS002GY7@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:02:04 EST Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:12:14 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3908BE.FA13530D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626122845.A11960@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010626214230.D461@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010626174756.A61831@blackhelicopters.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Lucas wrote: > ... > > Hey, he said he still has 20 hours a week for FreeBSD! That's an > awful lot of email. :) > Someone should implement an opensource jordan.pl with his contributions to fortune ;). > > We really could use a "presence", however. IIRC, jkh used to be the > FreeBSD President, which was very useful from a PR viewpoint. Having > "Mr. FreeBSD" was kind of nice. Maybe we can volunteer, say, Greg > Lehey for the job. ;) > Maybe the email "secretary" of the core team should also be the official spokesman. Someone elected by the core team. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 15:42:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D955F37B409 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5QMfvY13834; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:41:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010626133643X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> References: <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <20010626133643X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:19:58 +0200 To: Jordan Hubbard , kris@catonic.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: js43064n@pace.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:36 PM -0700 6/26/01, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Grumble. They gave me "jordanh@apple.com" instead; I'm trying > to fix that. :) Well, I'm sure you could give them many years of instruction on how to properly run a mail system. Then you could start all over again with the morons at Critical Path for mac.com. Maybe you could get them to upgrade mail-in1.apple.com to sendmail 8.11.4, or maybe 8.12? And while you're at it, could they please upgrade mail-in2.apple.com to something a little newer than sendmail 8.9.3? Meanwhile, they might want to upgrade their nameservers to something newer than BIND 8.2.3-REL? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 16:11:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C75137B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5QNBYY14880; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:11:35 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010626173359.017a9318@threespace.com> References: <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> <20010622184522.20003.qmail@web13601.mail.yahoo.com> <387348.993256255@[192.168.1.60]> <20010623095954.A28905@acidpit.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010626173359.017a9318@threespace.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:09:10 +0200 To: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Mac X face: unprofessional & incompetent Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:35 PM -0400 6/26/01, Technical Information wrote: > Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "Classic app?" Is this referring > to legacy (i.e., pre-Mac OS X) applications? Correct. Legacy applications have to run in an emulated mode that basically gives you MacOS 9.1 running as a guest underneath MacOS X. For a lot of applications, this is sufficient. This used to be called "Blue Box", and is now simply referred to as "Classic". However, this Classic mode is not 100% compatible with all programs that will otherwise run under MacOS 9 -- the lower down in the OS and hardware the program digs, the less likely it will work in "Classic". Even if it does run in Classic, it may be significantly slower than a native application (in fact, it will almost certainly be slower, the issue is by how much). -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 18:25:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A632B37B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06800; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:24:25 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:24:25 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: j mckitrick Cc: Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' In-Reply-To: <20010626203613.A85164@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > >| Until these services can achieve the reliability of the telehone, >| and that includes your link into the service provider, they are >| not capable of replacing on-site business infrastucture. > >Hmm. Good point. Interestingly, a recent article claimed software itself >will someday become like a utility. > >| Should ".NET" become a reality, then it will be no time at all >| before it is reengineered in Open Source. The components are >| already there (Xerces, or XML4C++ from IBM's "AlphWorks", and >| other "glue code" is trivial to write to obtain the minimal >| required functionality). Companies will not win based on closed >| standards -- we learned that during the Cold War, and we're not >| going to make the same mistake again, when it comes to our critical >| infrastructure. > >IIUC, MS plans to use these open standards to create .NET, but it will only >work well if there are MS Win2k boxes from start to finish. Apparently, >some of the collaboration features of Office will (already?) follow a similar >model: every link in the chain must be running IIS. This sounds like a >creative version of 'embrace, extend, extinguish,' but they are starting >with their own standards! > >| I personally think that it's very unlikely that people wll trust >| Microsoft, or any single vendor with their data. That approach > >I agree. Their track record here is dismal. But how many office executives >care? > >'I just want my PalmPilot to sync my Access and Excel documents without >having to worry about it....' Already done: Quicksheet does Suxel pretty well FWIH and ThinkDB+thinkDBsync does Access so-so again FWIH. You just need to get a PIII or better--PalmPilots don't do PalmOS 3, which is required for both of these: previous to the Palm3, the OS ROM wasn't flashable. The FUN use of the Palm I recently heard about was using the sync cradle and TopGun to serial-boot a Sparc5. :) > > >jcm > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FINE, I take it back: UNfuck you! Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 19:55:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-217.knology.net [24.214.76.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BCFB37B406 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5R2tDx53469 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:55:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200106270255.f5R2tDx53469@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: My new job In-reply-to: Message from Tadayuki OKADA of "Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:20:06 EDT." <20010625212006.4b86dc83.tadayuki@mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:55:13 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tadayuki OKADA writes: > > By the way, can we expect QuickTime player for FreeBSD? :-) I'm hoping Apple ports whatever API's they hold so dear in the Mach kernel to FreeBSD and use FreeBSD as the "Darwin" for MacOS X/86. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 22:50:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0084337B405 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r32.bfm.org [216.127.220.128]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:54:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:48:42 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden , Mark Murray From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <200106261012.f5QACQ154197@arb.arb.za.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 13:16 2001-06-26 -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mark Murray wrote: > >:> Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not >:> residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you >:> need a SSN in order to open an account. >: >:Get a US drivers license. That gets you a SSN. > >No, it does not. Not by itself. But some states (not all) use SSN for the driver's license number. You can apply for a SSN explaining you need it to get a driver's license, and they will assign you one. Though you may need to keep reminding them. I got my SSN that way back when I was in the US on a student visa: I needed a DC driver's license, and DC uses (or used back then) the SSN. I applied for the SSN in Western New York (I went to St. Bonaventure's) and told them I needed it for a DC license, and they gave it to me. It said "not valid for employment" on the SS card. When I became a resident alien two years later, they gave me a new card (without those extra words), but it had the same SSN. All that said, I opened the bank account before I got the SSN: it was not required when I explained I was here on a student visa. By the way, one should be careful about choosing the right bank: Some charge you fees for keeping your money. Sheesh! The bank I opened my account when I was here on the student visa was the only bank near St. Bonaventure's that did not charge such fees--that is why they got my business. Years later they instated fees--that was when I closed the account. Some of them lie, so you have to really read the fine print and ask a lot of questions. Even PayPal, which is technically not a bank, lies: Their web site claims you can get a free ATM card from them, but when you try to apply for one, it tells you must upgrade to a non-free type of account. At any rate, USAA has never charged any fees for any of their accounts, and was one of the first banks to offer online access to your account. I do all my banking through them: I only use my local bank to deposit checks in, then go to usaa.com and transfer the money to USAA. I have an ATM card from them with the MasterCard logo on it. It is accepted anywhere where credit cards are accepted, but it is not a credit card (it is a debit card that pretends to be a credit card). Because it looks like a credit card, merchants have to pay transaction fees. but because it is a debit card, USAA is not loaning me any money when I use it. To encourage me to use it (and let them get their transaction fees), they give a percentage of the transaction fees back to me. So, effectively, I get a discount on everything I buy with it. They are located in Texas, but as long as you are not a Pennsylvania resident, just about anyone can open an account there (it is against PA law, not against USAA policy). Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 23:11:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B316937B401 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:11:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5R6AjY29805; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:10:45 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> References: <200106261012.f5QACQ154197@arb.arb.za.net> <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:10:24 +0200 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Jamie Bowden , Mark Murray From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:48 AM -0500 6/27/01, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > They are located in Texas, but as long as you are not a Pennsylvania > resident, just about anyone can open an account there (it is against > PA law, not against USAA policy). My father-in-law works as USAA in Texas, but he works for an insurance company. Are they one and the same? -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 26 23:58: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2C1037B406 for ; Tue, 26 Jun 2001 23:58:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345B55163A; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:02:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C628B10; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:43:50 +1000 (EST) Received: by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix, from userid 683) id 3B1A1328F2; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:58:09 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18FF3283D; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:58:09 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:58:09 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > By the way, one should be careful about choosing the right bank: > Some charge you fees for keeping your money. Sheesh! The bank I > opened my account when I was here on the student visa was the only > bank near St. Bonaventure's that did not charge such fees--that is > why they got my business. Years later they instated fees--that was > when I closed the account. > Wow! A bank that doesn't charge you fees. You lucky Americans! Lets see, that'll be $5 for going below $500, $1.50 per other bank ATM transaction. $1.something for an other bank EFTPOS transaction. Now, where's my 0.25% PA interest? Lets not talk about overdrafts... I don't think that there are any banks here that don't charge fees, at least not to people without mortgages/shareholdings. Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 1: 0:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.viasoft.com.cn (unknown [61.153.1.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6001F37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:00:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsddiy@163.net) Received: from William ([192.168.1.98]) by mail.viasoft.com.cn (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28829; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:00:55 +0800 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:01:01 +0800 From: David Xu X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: bsddiy@163.net Organization: Viasoft X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jordan Hubbard , js43064n@pace.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re[2]: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-reply-To: References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Brad, Wednesday, June 27, 2001, 2:44:31 AM, you wrote: BK> The rest of us will benefit, because we'll finally get a desktop BK> OS with the full power and robustness of Unix, but with enough BK> desktop penetration that it will be able to actually deliver on being BK> able to run the standard business applications that most companies BK> really care about. This is something that even Linux hasn't quite BK> yet been able to deliver on. Too far to believe that MacOS X will have an X86 version. I don't want to buy Apple's expensive Hardware. I prefer to use cheap X86 hardware and has same or better performance and many choise. and did FreeBSD get something back from M$? can not believe. -- Best regards, David Xu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 4:43:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B5937B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 04:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15FDjk-000AkW-0W for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:44:00 +0100 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f5RBhgs10257 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:43:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f5RBgWm75823 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:42:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:42:32 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [OT] Spam from Windriver - how should I react? Message-ID: <20010627124232.A74728@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15155.53722.908690.505545@guru.mired.org> <3B33E17D.F1F715BE@iowna.com> <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <3B33E769.A68AE1B8@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:48:41PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 08:48:41PM -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > If it's the same message I received then it is not spam. I was very > worried about not having heard of my FreeBSD CDs and their email just > informed me that they were in fact having problems with their > databases and that they appreciate my patience. If you supply your email address to an organisation, don't be surprised if they, or their heirs, use it to send you information which they think you ought to have. I too found this email useful, and wouldn't have objected if I had not. It reminded me that I'd heard nothing about my 4.3 FreeBSD CD subscription, and that JKH had mentioned some problems with CD distribution. An email to the contact address unstuck things for me. I received an email dispatch notice soon afterwards. Possibly my views about UCE are coloured by my having had the same email address for many years, being a regular usenet poster and the moderator of a group with adverts in its name (8-(. I get a _lot_ of unwanted / unexpected email, and have come to live with it. Junkfilter helps to keep me sane. -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 5:22: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2AD437B4CF for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5RCLr827463; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:21:54 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106271221.f5RCLr827463@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:21:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jun 2001, at 0:48, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > They are located in Texas, but as long as you are not a Pennsylvania > resident, just about anyone can open an account there (it is against > PA law, not against USAA policy). They sound good to me. However, if I need to front up to a USAA branch in order to get an account, I'm pretty much restricted to those areas of USA near to Ottawa (namely New York). Ogdensburg is pretty much the closest USA town. I'll be able to start my search latter today, but if anyone knows more about the NY state towns which are shown on this map, thanks: http://mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn- map_results&zoom_level=4&uid=u0hevev6u0g5i9td:z5h6r29y7&aphoto= 0&SNVData=3mad3-g.fy%28wr0hwa_%29z855yt%3bah7- %3d%3aQUIDLF%13GCU%3d%11K_%3dGG_qwzwq0%28.04rggz%28l %241w-u.wf7%3bxcx5sf7.grfe%7cs&pcat=&zlgif.x=1 -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 5:25:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A431A37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B51557574; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A027E1D8F; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:26:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Mark Murray , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: :At 13:16 2001-06-26 -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: :>On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Mark Murray wrote: :> :>:> Has anyone been able to open a US checking account while not :>:> residing in the USA? How did you do it? From what I can tell, you :>:> need a SSN in order to open an account. :>: :>:Get a US drivers license. That gets you a SSN. :> :>No, it does not. : :Not by itself. But some states (not all) use SSN for the driver's :license number. You can apply for a SSN explaining you need it to :get a driver's license, and they will assign you one. Though you :may need to keep reminding them. No, you do not need an SSN to get a driver's license. Any state that attempts to make it a requirement is in violation of Federal law. Anyone who asks for your SSN for any reason other than to be able to report tax info to the IRS is in violation of Federal law. My SSN happens to be my VA Driver's License number, I could have just as easily told the state to go blow, issue me a new unique number. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 6:28:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF05637B414 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCA965DD; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:28:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:28:40 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Mark Murray , , Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, Jamie Bowden wrote: :No, you do not need an SSN to get a driver's license. Any state that :attempts to make it a requirement is in violation of Federal law. Anyone :who asks for your SSN for any reason other than to be able to report tax :info to the IRS is in violation of Federal law. This is simply not true. A government agency that asks for your SSN has to provide a Privacy Act notice, which explains what law allows them to ask, whether you are required to provide it, and what happens if you don't. Private parties have much more freedom, though some states have restrictions, such as not allowing a merchant to write your SSN on your check. If a company wants your SSN, theres not a whole lot you can do past refusing to give it to them, and taking your buisness elsewhere (and make clear to management exactly why you're doing so). That's difficult if your electric company wants it. CPSR have a good FAQ about this at http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/ssn.faq.html David -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 6:30:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 725CC37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:30:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15FFOs-00034j-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:34 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5RDUYp09622; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:34 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:34 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: John Galt Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' Message-ID: <20010627143033.A7900@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010626203613.A85164@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from galt@inconnu.isu.edu on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 07:24:25PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | of these: previous to the Palm3, the OS ROM wasn't flashable. The FUN use | of the Palm I recently heard about was using the sync cradle and TopGun to | serial-boot a Sparc5. :) How would you do *that* ? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 7:18: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-1.enteract.com (smtp-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E3E37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@tumbolia.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E59E8CC2; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:18:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:18:01 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt X-X-Sender: To: j mckitrick Cc: John Galt , Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' In-Reply-To: <20010627143033.A7900@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, j mckitrick wrote: :| of these: previous to the Palm3, the OS ROM wasn't flashable. The FUN use :| of the Palm I recently heard about was using the sync cradle and TopGun to :| serial-boot a Sparc5. :) : :How would you do *that* ? : You plug the plam's cradle into the serial port, and use a terminal emulator on the palm to talk to the machine. I've done this with Suns, Ciscos, HPss, FreeBSD, and some random other things. It's no where near as nice as a real terminal, but it does work. -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 9:14:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09A637B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15FHx1-0002ze-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:13:59 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5RGDwZ12888; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:13:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:13:58 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: John Galt , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' Message-ID: <20010627171357.A12856@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010627143033.A7900@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:18:01AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:18:01AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: | On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, j mckitrick wrote: | | :| of these: previous to the Palm3, the OS ROM wasn't flashable. The FUN use | :| of the Palm I recently heard about was using the sync cradle and TopGun to | :| serial-boot a Sparc5. :) | : | :How would you do *that* ? | : | | You plug the plam's cradle into the serial port, and use a terminal emulator | on the palm to talk to the machine. I've done this with Suns, Ciscos, HPss, I guess what i was unfamiliar with is the term 'serial-boot.' It sounded like more than just a terminal session. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 9:43: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (chfdns01.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4CC537B405; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.40 2001/06/06 21:14:49 root Exp $) with ESMTP id QAA24994; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:42:56 GMT Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.14 2001/01/02 18:39:59 steved Exp $) with ESMTP id JAA19315; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:42:55 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id MAA18308; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:42:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: hip186.ch.intel.com: jreynold set sender to jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com using -f From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15162.3340.624402.317088@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:42:52 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Foundation -- an introduction In-Reply-To: <20010627123459.9CF3737B40A@hub.freebsd.org> References: <20010627123459.9CF3737B40A@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under Emacs 20.7.2 Cc: jmb@hub.freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ sending to -chat, please cc' me as I'm not directly subscribed ] [ On Wednesday, June 27, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: ] > Q: How can I make a donation? > > A: The Foundation can accept donations, in check form, sent to > its mailing address: > > The FreeBSD Foundation > 7321 Brockway Dr. > Boulder, CO 80303 > > The Foundation is still looking into ways to accept donations > via credit card. How about setting up a Paypal account? True, they do scrape off some $$$ off the top for incoming payments for their "service" but it would be very "easy" for people. I realize that by doing things the "traditional" way, donators get the official paper receipts showing they donated so that they can claim the stuff on taxes (or could). However, for people who are not terribly worried about claiming their donations on fed tax forms, Paypal seems to be a reasonable solution. Or, is the foundation looking to create something along the lines of what you see here: http://www.freebsdmall.com/donate/ Thoughts? > 2) To aid research in computer operating systems by providing a > non-proprietary, production-quality operating system with > complete source code to students and researchers in the field > and by directly supporting such research through grants and > other means. I infer from this and also from the blurb about paying for the IPFW work as well as something to Warner that monies contributed, when appropriate, would most definitely go to "worthwhile" (notice the quotes) projects or maybe to buy new hardware for somebody who needs it to develop. Is there currently a list of "potential projects" which could receive funding from the foundation if/when donations reach a high enough level? Is there a process in place to help arbitrate where monies go in the event that several "worthwhile" proposals for project funding are submitted (i.e. does the FreeBSD foundation talk with -core privately, or is "public opinion" solicited via -hackers, -stable, etc., or does the BOD just "make the decision")? I for one am very glad this announcement went out. I had brought up some weeks earlier that my CD subscription really isn't useful to me, so I plan to cancel that subscription and direct the same amount (or more :) of dough to the FreeBSD Foundation! Thanks to Justin, Jonathan, and John for their hard work! -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds WCCG, CCE, (space for rent, cheap!) | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 602-868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 10:30:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C4237B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA48445 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.168.205] (cerberus [192.168.168.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5RHVcK11012 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:20:08 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: the essential nature of FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apple already incorporates a great deal of FreeBSD code into Darwin and Mac OS X. With Jordan's recent move, we can probably expect to see the BSD part of the OSX "userland" become more FreeBSD-like over time. Thus, I will soon be able to use and program an OSX system as if it were FreeBSD. There will be differences, to be sure, but they will be down in the kernel or off in "sysadmin land". At the same time, Apple will have become (by far) the largest purveyor of BSD, shipping millions of copies per year. Given this scenario, I think it is appropriate to think about the essential nature of FreeBSD. To some, this is a silly question; the kernel is THE critical piece of the operating system and defines its essential nature. I don't have a lot of sympathy for this idea; as long as the kernel does its job, I don't really care much about its implementation details. It became appropriate for FreeBSD to adopt some of Apple's technology (e.g., the IO Kit), I wouldn't be particularly troubled (as long as the licensing and technology both "worked" as desired). From my perspective, the FreeBSD community is much more critical. It defines a set of attitudes (e.g., Best Practice), infrastructure (e.g., for bug-tracking, communication, and development) and interpersonal relationships (Who is that guy, anyway?). The "product" of all this is an occasional cohesive release and a slew of intermediate releases. In any case, this is a time of great change for the BSDs in general and FreeBSD in particular. BSD is about to become a household word, at least in Apple-using households. The FreeBSD community WILL play a part in all of this, but what part SHOULD it play? -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 10:30:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D3437B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1168"@[136.142.21.245]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59HF9R1R8002JFC@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:30:21 EST Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:32:16 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: chat@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is very cool! http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 11:29:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2F337B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@1nova.com) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 37BD318DC; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF8318DB; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:29:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Pedro F Giffuni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! In-Reply-To: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is very cool! > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html To bad the.NET project is Microsoft's latest attempt to take over the Internet.... :( Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 11:54: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 832CD37B401; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1129"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59KCZ7EJA002HUI@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:54:00 EST Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:04:15 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (CCd to advocacy) Rick Hamell wrote: > > > This is very cool! > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html > > To bad the.NET project is Microsoft's latest attempt to take over > the Internet.... :( > > Rick Resistance is futile, they will be assimilated ! ;) Seriously, Java is putting a serious weight so it won't be that easy. They will have to have real technical merits to be successful in their attempt. FWIW, it is really weird to find SUN somewhat ignoring us in all this while MS is actually playing clean. What is nice here is that in an unprecedented Press Release, Microsoft is encouraging people to use FreeBSD. The could have released binaries for Linux, after all most of this is userland code, but they chose us, apparently with a very user friendly license, and whatever reason they might have it is very good to have them around. Perhaps now that they are working with Corel on this, and FreeBSD is one of the two supported platforms we can finally get a native port of Corel's office suite. (there you go ... a plausible campaign). I have this feeling that FreeBSD doesn't need more hackers, but rather a real strategist. Apple, Microsoft, Wind River.... all big companies in their fields: the spotlight is on FreeBSD now! Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 11:58:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heechee.tobez.org (254.adsl0.ryv.worldonline.dk [213.237.10.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A9437B419 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@tobez.org) Received: by heechee.tobez.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 80FD4543D; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:58:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:58:35 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? Message-ID: <20010627205835.A72506@heechee.tobez.org> Mail-Followup-To: Anton Berezin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:47:45AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:47:45AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Ryan Thompson writes: > > Classic problem with this is, even if you can understand it (or at > > least figure it out in less than a minute or so) who the hell could > > hazard a guess at the efficiency of that "algorithm"? (Before going > > to the trouble of testing it on a few million lines). I bet it isn't > > O(n) ;-) > > I strongly suspect it's O(n*log(k)), where k is the number of distinct > lines in the input. In most cases k will probably be a significant > fraction of n, so call it O(n*log(n)). I do think that in fact it is closer to O(n), if one replaces s,.,,sg with $_="", which is the obvious optimization, and which you already mentioned. The hash accesses are essentially O(1) for random enough keys and in case there are enough buckets - and there is always enough buckets in Perl since it rebalances its hashes when necessary. So it should be close to O(n). > The other (not possible in Perl) is to keep only the hash value of > each previously seen line, and discard the actual line to conserve > memory. With a good hash function, the likelihood of finding two > distinct input lines that hash to the same value should be pretty low > (though non-zero). This does not improve the time characteristics of the algorithm. It saves memory, though. \Anton. -- May the tuna salad be with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 12: 1:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13607.mail.yahoo.com (web13607.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CBD9737B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010627190113.47543.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13607.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:01:13 PDT Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:01:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > This is very cool! > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html Yes, it is. Yet he essentially says thayt they have the right to take the other people's work and screw the rest of the world over and over again. e.g. when they talk about Kerberos 'hooks'. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 12: 7: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EED1537B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 114 invoked by uid 100); 27 Jun 2001 19:06:57 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15162.11985.348196.939734@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:06:57 -0500 To: Anton Berezin Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Ryan Thompson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: most complex code in BSD? In-Reply-To: <20010627205835.A72506@heechee.tobez.org> References: <20010627205835.A72506@heechee.tobez.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anton Berezin types: > On Tue, Jun 26, 2001 at 09:47:45AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Ryan Thompson writes: > > > Classic problem with this is, even if you can understand it (or at > > > least figure it out in less than a minute or so) who the hell could > > > hazard a guess at the efficiency of that "algorithm"? (Before going > > > to the trouble of testing it on a few million lines). I bet it isn't > > > O(n) ;-) > > I strongly suspect it's O(n*log(k)), where k is the number of distinct > > lines in the input. In most cases k will probably be a significant > > fraction of n, so call it O(n*log(n)). > > I do think that in fact it is closer to O(n), if one replaces s,.,,sg > with $_="", which is the obvious optimization, and which you already > mentioned. The hash accesses are essentially O(1) for random enough > keys and in case there are enough buckets - and there is always enough > buckets in Perl since it rebalances its hashes when necessary. So it > should be close to O(n). If I understand the problem correctly, the deviation from O(n) will be the cost of rebalancing the hashes. Unless that's O(n) or less, Ryan's correct. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 12: 7:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0BE37B407; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f5RJ79U28676; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:07:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:06:55 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > Perhaps now that they are working with Corel on this, and FreeBSD is > one of the two supported platforms we can finally get a native port of > Corel's office suite. (there you go ... a plausible campaign). > My understanding is that Corel has been running away at hyperspeed from Linux. Their Corel Draw graphics suite is no longer supported as a front-line product, for example. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 12:14:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB52137B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1185"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59L2HWS8W002HUI@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:14:34 EST Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:24:50 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: Bzdik BSD , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3A3302.9AD2020A@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <20010627190113.47543.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bzdik BSD wrote: > > --- Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > > This is very cool! > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html > > Yes, it is. Yet he essentially says thayt they have the right to take > the other people's work and screw the rest of the world over and over > again. e.g. when they talk about Kerberos 'hooks'. > As I just wrote to a friend: # TBH, I'm tired of waiting for a decent Java implementation on FreeBSD. # Microsoft not only chose FreeBSD as the reference platform, they will # show everyone the source code. # # Hell it is tempting! They will surely make extensions and sell them with high profits, but with SUN we don't see the code, much less ANY support. (No offense to out Java porting team, they are doing a good job but there's not much they can do without SUN's interest.) Pedro. ps...OK...I honestly don't work for Microsoft. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 12:43: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A2937B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r29.bfm.org [216.127.220.125]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:47:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010627144256.00abadd0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:42:56 -0500 To: Brad Knowles , Jamie Bowden , Mark Murray From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> <200106261012.f5QACQ154197@arb.arb.za.net> <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:10 2001-06-27 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 12:48 AM -0500 6/27/01, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >> They are located in Texas, but as long as you are not a Pennsylvania >> resident, just about anyone can open an account there (it is against >> PA law, not against USAA policy). > > My father-in-law works as USAA in Texas, but he works for an >insurance company. Are they one and the same? Yes. In fact, the reason PA residents cannot open a USAA bank account is the PA law prohibits the same company to be in both insuarance and banking business. I found out about USAA about 5-6 years ago when the Money Magazine named them the best bank in America. They keep an amazingly low profile - no advertising and similar stuff. That is probably how they can afford to offer free banking services. Even before they got on the Internet, I was able to do all transactions over the phone (1-800-531-BANK). Now, of course, I do it all through their web site. Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13: 0: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857B937B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r29.bfm.org [216.127.220.125]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:04:10 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010627145956.00ab4e30@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:59:56 -0500 To: Iain Templeton From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:58 2001-06-27 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: >Wow! A bank that doesn't charge you fees. You lucky Americans! > >Lets see, that'll be $5 for going below $500, $1.50 per other bank ATM >transaction. $1.something for an other bank EFTPOS transaction. Now, >where's my 0.25% PA interest? Lets not talk about overdrafts... Well, overdraft fees I find justifiable. The rest of them, I do not. Most importantly, what I meant was no minimum balance and no fees related to that. Most banks, even in the US, do have monthly minimums and charge you "account maintenance fees" if you go below that. That is the fee I object to, and refuse to open an account in a bank that has one. For eaxmple, when I moved to the little town I live in now, I went from bank to bank looking for the right one. I explained to each one of them my conditions (the smart ones are willing to negotiate). One rep smiled and said: "You will not find that in Rhinelander." I did find it, and I came back to her to tell her so. Anyway, the reason I object to this fee is that it is unfair and ridiculous. When you deposit money in a bank, the bank takes your money, invests it, and makes more money from it. They have a lot of nerve to charge you a fee for depositing less than $500 (or any amount). If you requested a loan for $500, and they only offered $450, would THEY be willing to pay you a fee? (If so, I want to know which bank it is, hehehehehe.) So, why on earth would you pay them a fee for loaning them your money??? >I don't think that there are any banks here that don't charge fees, at >least not to people without mortgages/shareholdings. Again, I only meant the monthly fee. You will probably not find a bank that does not charge an overdraft fee here either. Of course, many have an overdraft protection plan. For example, with USAA, if I write a check that is not covered with my checking account, they will automatically transfer that money from my savings account to my checking account (for free). Only if I did not have enough money in my savings account would they charge me an overdraft fee. And I would have no objection. Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13: 3:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BA837B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5RK2x833844; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:03:00 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Message-Id: <200106272003.f5RK2x833844@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: novice in training To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:02:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Reply-To: dan@langille.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3.0.6.32.20010627144256.00abadd0@mail85.pair.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jun 2001, at 14:42, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Even before they got on the Internet, I was able to do all transactions > over the phone (1-800-531-BANK). Now, of course, I do it all through their > web site. I just rang this number. I've started the process. They're sending me the forms and I'll fill them in and send them back. She confirmed that I'd be getting a checking account (called "Four Star"). There is no mimum, and no service fees balance. I can get overdraft protection using a savings account. If I open the savings account, I can get that ATM card which Adam mentioned in a previous message. BTW: They asked how I had heard of them; I said it was mailing list I was on and mentioned the Money Magazine article. my first impressions: it was easy. they were helpful. if all my transactions with them go that well, I will be very happy. I'll keep you all posted as to what happens. -- Dan Langille pgpkey - finger dan@unixathome.org | http://unixathome.org/finger.php To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13: 4: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3654B37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r29.bfm.org [216.127.220.125]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:08:06 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010627150352.00aaf9c0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:03:52 -0500 To: dan@langille.org From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200106271221.f5RCLr827463@lists.unixathome.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:21 2001-06-27 -0400, Dan Langille wrote: >They sound good to me. However, if I need to front up to a USAA >branch in order to get an account I opened my by mail (I have never been in Texas), though we have slightly changed the topic here: I am not sure about USAA not requiring a US residency. The one I opened my account in when I was here on the student visa was a small bank in the Olean, NY, area. Cheers, Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13: 5:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB18937B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: from WhizKid (r29.bfm.org [216.127.220.125]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:09:35 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010627150519.00abba70@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:05:19 -0500 To: Jamie Bowden From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: Mark Murray , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:26 2001-06-27 -0700, Jamie Bowden wrote: >No, you do not need an SSN to get a driver's license. Any state that >attempts to make it a requirement is in violation of Federal law. Well, maybe it changed. I got mine some 20 years ago that way. Adam --- http://phonecowboy.com/registrar/twist/ finds a good domain for you and checks for its existence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13:43:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ctonet.it (mail.ctonet.it [212.110.160.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42E8C37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Received: from olgeni.olgeni (ppp-57.dial2.ctonet.it [212.110.177.57]) by mail.ctonet.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331EA13D0A; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:42:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (bogus@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgeni.olgeni (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f5RKgUK03475; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:42:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:42:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Jimmy Olgeni X-X-Sender: To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: , , Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? In-Reply-To: <20010626133643X.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> Message-ID: <20010627224139.C2651-100000@olgeni.olgeni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Jordan Hubbard wrote: > Grumble. They gave me "jordanh@apple.com" instead; I'm trying > to fix that. :) You may threat them to port libdialog to Aqua and make it the default API. :o) -- jimmy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13:44:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom01.kundenserver.de (moutvdom01.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80E137B407 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from [195.20.224.219] (helo=mrvdom03.kundenserver.de) by moutvdom01.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15FMB6-0000Vr-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:44:48 +0200 Received: from p3ee2e2fa.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([62.226.226.250] helo=heath.lgk.de) by mrvdom03.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15FMAn-0005Mr-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:44:30 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B3A3302.9AD2020A@pitt.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:49:44 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: kuehl@lgk.de To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Bzdik BSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > with SUN we don't see the code, much less ANY support. (No offense to > out Java porting team, they are doing a good job but there's not much > they can do without SUN's interest.) Well, now there might be reason for some degree of interest.-) Lars Gerhard Kühl Phone: +49 40 54768010 Mobile: +49 171 9307085 Fax : +49 40 54768012 Email : kuehl@lgk.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 13:49:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4726837B405 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:49:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010627204932.90315.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:49:32 PDT Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:49:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: VA Linux woes To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess, you saw this from Bloomie: VA Linux Systems Inc. said it will quit making computers based on the Linux operating system at the end of the year. VA Linux said in a statement that it will cut 35 percent of its staff and take a $10 million charge against fourth-quarter earnings. Fremont, California-based Linux said it will focus on making application software. I'd rather let RHAT go... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:30:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.baldwin.cx (server.baldwin.cx [204.216.28.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BE437B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23024; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: RE: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: crap@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Jun-01 Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > This is very cool! > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html I'm not sure it's really cool. M$ is just using us to snub the GPL crowd. Presumably if they actually manage to use BSD to squash the GPl, they will just turn around and attack BSD next. -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:31: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3E337B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@mips.inka.de) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 15FMtk-0002Uw-01; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:30:56 +0200 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5RKp3c73309 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:51:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:51:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9hdgvl$2779$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > This is very cool! > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html As already pointed out on -advocacy, this is a rather transparent attempt at "divide et impera!" over the Open Source community. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:31:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B8E37B403 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5RLVSO03342; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:31:28 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:24:55 +0200 To: bsddiy@163.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re[2]: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: Jordan Hubbard , js43064n@pace.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:01 PM +0800 6/27/01, David Xu wrote: > Too far to believe that MacOS X will have an X86 version. I don't want > to buy Apple's expensive Hardware. I prefer to use cheap X86 hardware > and has same or better performance and many choise. Mac hardware has become much less expensive in the last few years, and in my experience tends to be pretty price competitive for the same amount of performance (witness the fact that the closest competing laptop to the new iBook is almost $1000 more). Granted, there isn't as much choice as to configuration, and you don't tend to get as many slots (unless you want to buy an older clone, which can hopefully be upgraded with G3 and G4 daughter-boards). But I really don't think that there will ever be an x86 version -- Apple has billions of dollars in the bank right now, and they're really hurting on the CPU chip side, with Motorola wanting to focus primarily or almost exclusively on the embedded market, and IBM wanting to focus on the server market. My best bet is that Apple will take some or all of this money and buy out Motorola's participating in the PowerPC chip consortium, or at least buy themselves the rights to design their own PowerPC chips and then have Motorola, IBM, or some other company actually handle the fabrication. Others have said that Apple should take the money and buy out Palm or Handspring, but I don't think that this is necessary. I think that they can spruce up that partnership, invest some money in one or the other company, but allow them to continue as a separate entity. Apple may not have a hand-held "digital appliance" right now as something to plug into their "digital hub", but then they also don't manufacture their own digital video or still cameras, either. No, this may be an area where Apple could help boost sales, and produce some really cool technology (a la Newton), but the CPU chip problem right now is a potential nuclear bomb on their horizon, and they really need to do whatever it takes to make sure that scenario simply cannot happen. But this is just my guess. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:32:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C9537B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:32:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5RLVTO03365; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:31:30 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 21:27:15 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden , "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Cc: Mark Murray , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:26 AM -0700 6/27/01, Jamie Bowden wrote: > My SSN happens to be my VA Driver's License number, I could have just as > easily told the state to go blow, issue me a new unique number. Indeed, I had that same problem when I lived in Virginia. I did not become aware of the laws restricting the use of SSNs until after I had been issued my license, and I didn't want to go in to have it replaced. This is one reason I was really happy when I moved to Maryland, and found that they issued their own license numbers, which I believe was based on a soundex code from your last name, plus perhaps some other identifying information. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:36:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FBED37B403 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from galt@inconnu.isu.edu) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22326; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:35:40 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:35:28 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: j mckitrick Cc: Terry Lambert , Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' In-Reply-To: <20010627143033.A7900@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Copies-to: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >| of these: previous to the Palm3, the OS ROM wasn't flashable. The FUN use >| of the Palm I recently heard about was using the sync cradle and TopGun to >| serial-boot a Sparc5. :) > >How would you do *that* ? TopGun is a telnet app. The HotSync cradle is a hugely expensive null-modem cable, so all he did (I assume) is boot the Sparc headless, which defaults to serial console [9600 8N1] and use TopGun sort of like you would use Minicom. > >Jonathon >-- >Microsoft complaining about the source license used by >Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. > - -- Customer: "I'm running Windows '98" Tech: "Yes." Customer: "My computer isn't working now." Tech: "Yes, you said that." Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOzpRqx9mehuYcOjMEQIouwCeNN2iWlLxhd/W5vTS6o/cQPATUQcAnjMS NguDtKiBvOuVSdbzTgbT3K/y =Xzzc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 14:53:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D378037B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15FNFG-000IRk-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:53:10 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5RLrAH19721; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:53:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:53:09 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and the shift to 'web services' Message-ID: <20010627225309.A18928@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010627143033.A7900@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from dscheidt@tumbolia.com on Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:18:01AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, is that timing or what? Seems FreeBSD doesn't have to worry about writing its own .NET after all. However, i agree most of the issues remain, including updating (?) some of the development tools. But at least one of the biggest obstacles might be dealt with if MS really comes through on this one. Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 16:40:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-76-217.knology.net [24.214.76.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D601E37B401 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f5RNeix61442; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:40:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200106272340.f5RNeix61442@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Kris Kirby Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: My new job In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kirby of "Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:57:52 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:40:44 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, David Kelly wrote: > > > By the way, can we expect QuickTime player for FreeBSD? :-) > > > > I'm hoping Apple ports whatever API's they hold so dear in the Mach > > kernel to FreeBSD and use FreeBSD as the "Darwin" for MacOS X/86. > > Oooo... Mac's GUI on x86 processors? Gates should be trembling.... And to think there are those who think FreeBSD has had poor marketing. We have Microsoft focused on Linux, wasting their resources. The fatal blow will not come from the direction Microsoft is looking. It never does. Jordan's announcement on Monday added about $1500 value to my APPL stock. Finally I'm a bit ahead. Jordan, can do something for LSI and LU without hurting APPL? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 16:48:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kwanon.research.canon.com.au (kwanon.research.canon.com.au [203.12.172.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C170B37B403 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iain@research.canon.com.au) Received: from bellmann.research.canon.com.au (bellmann.research.canon.com.au [10.5.0.3]) by kwanon.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7E9E51625; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:53:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from blow.research.canon.com.au (blow.research.canon.com.au [10.8.1.4]) by bellmann.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E10A8B10; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:34:30 +1000 (EST) Received: by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix, from userid 683) id 9D0CA328F3; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:48:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blow.research.canon.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B382328F1; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:48:53 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:48:52 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010627145956.00ab4e30@mail85.pair.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jun 2001, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 16:58 2001-06-27 +1000, Iain Templeton wrote: > >Wow! A bank that doesn't charge you fees. You lucky Americans! > > > >Lets see, that'll be $5 for going below $500, $1.50 per other bank ATM > >transaction. $1.something for an other bank EFTPOS transaction. Now, > >where's my 0.25% PA interest? Lets not talk about overdrafts... > > Well, overdraft fees I find justifiable. The rest of them, I do not. > Most importantly, what I meant was no minimum balance and no fees > related to that. > Yes true, I tend to keep in the black, so have no problems. Even my credit card. > Most banks, even in the US, do have monthly minimums and charge you > "account maintenance fees" if you go below that. That is the fee I > object to, and refuse to open an account in a bank that has one. > Yes, my bank recently upped the account maintenance fee to $2000, that is just wrong. For many years I would never have had $2000, mind you I was a full time student (I almost wrote stupid :-) then and was exempt. However there would be a large number of people who have no hope of keeping that around. > For eaxmple, when I moved to the little town I live in now, I went > from bank to bank looking for the right one. I explained to each one > of them my conditions (the smart ones are willing to negotiate). > One rep smiled and said: "You will not find that in Rhinelander." > > I did find it, and I came back to her to tell her so. > We have basically 5 banks in Australia, and a number of other smaller groups who provide banking services (some of them are credit unions, others are overseas banks). Generally the big 4 (+1) tend to have the highest fees. > Anyway, the reason I object to this fee is that it is unfair and > ridiculous. When you deposit money in a bank, the bank takes your > money, invests it, and makes more money from it. They have a lot > of nerve to charge you a fee for depositing less than $500 (or any > amount). > I think the one I find the hardest to comprehend is the service fees. If I make more than 6 electronic (ie Internet, phone, EFTPOS, ATM) transactions a month, I get charge $1.50 per excess transaction. I only get 2 over the counter transactions as well. Not that I need them. It's funny really, the banks make barely anything out of personal banking, yet charge the highest fees. It looks as if they are forcing the individual business units to make the highest profits, rather than perhaps spreading things out across the entire business. Oh well... Iain To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 16:53:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AD637B403 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f5RNrIK31035; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:53:18 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:53:18 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Brad Knowles Cc: Jamie Bowden , "G. Adam Stanislav" , Mark Murray , dan@langille.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents Message-ID: <20010627165318.A30006@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="liOOAslEiF7prFVr" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:27:15PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:27:15PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > This is one reason I was really happy when I moved to Maryland,=20 > and found that they issued their own license numbers, which I believe=20 > was based on a soundex code from your last name, plus perhaps some=20 > other identifying information. I think most states do this or something similar. Apparently, many of them forgot something rather important though. They encode a whole bunch of information in the number, but don't actually make sure it's unique. There are some states where a few numbers hve 3-4 people sharing them. Drivers license numbers are used for some forms of credit and similar checks so this can be is a really serious problem. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7OnHtXY6L6fI4GtQRAltBAKC1rczdt3MlXFKCWA0sw93iZXgDlQCgiad4 0e54mSKosMJSiXJEPzY6RWw= =iG/O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 17:11:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBFEE37B405; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 17:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1105"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K59VFKYHLS002HUI@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:11:27 EST Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:21:44 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: John Baldwin Cc: crap@FreeBSD.org Message-id: <3B3A7898.3A4AD201@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well...yes, we are being used, but that's what BSD is about. All in all, we have two options..embrace them or ignore them, and the final decision will be made by the end users. Are windoze users interested in FreeBSD now? Is Yahoo (to mention one company, replace any other name here) interested in .NET if it's more open than Java? What they are doing is perfectly legal and ethically correct; I don't think they will be able to "squash" the GPL though. I think this will be good for FreeBSD.. but if the interested parties are not careful it will bring harm to Linux and to Java. I don't care much about the first one, and believe me...they will survive. About Java and what it means to the Internet, let's say they are in great danger unless they react now (and I don't think they will) but that is not our fault. About these comments about breaking apart the Opensource community; read well the FUD about BSD vs GPL and you will conclude that we have never been together. This ends up being a slight advantage in favor of Microsoft, but it's not MS's fault. As I said the could just as well release them under the same license for Linux. Pedro. ps...what is crap@FreeBSD.org ... nevermind, I'll find out :). John Baldwin wrote: > > On 27-Jun-01 Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > > This is very cool! > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html > > I'm not sure it's really cool. M$ is just using us to snub the GPL crowd. > Presumably if they actually manage to use BSD to squash the GPl, they will just > turn around and attack BSD next. > > -- > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 19:30:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4D237B407 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:30:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA99265; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:29:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Pedro F Giffuni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! References: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jun 2001 04:29:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3B3A42D0.DD9BBB1B@pitt.edu> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F Giffuni writes: > This is very cool! That's like saying "mmm, nice, a backrub" until you realize there might be another reason why they're asking you to bend over. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 22: 5:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [208.247.99.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774D437B406 for ; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from localhost.softweyr.com ([127.0.0.1] helo=softweyr.com ident=25294f500df4c1632fe8589ee0c0dcf2) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 15FU3R-0000A0-00; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:09:25 -0600 Message-ID: <3B3ABC05.BF685113@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:09:25 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joseph A. Mallett" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Mark Valentine , Adam , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Joseph A. Mallett" wrote: > > > *Cough*Wollongong*cough*hack*wheeze* (THUD!) > > What are the odds anyone on this group remembers Wollongong? Hell, mention > Whitesmiths C Compiler, and people look at you like christians having > hinduism explained to them. Used Wollydong, even worked on a TCP/IP <-> DECnet router, written in MACRO. Used a system based on Idris, too, so I've been around Whitesmiths products. I also sold Wollydong's TCP/IP for Win 3.1, bundled with TinyTERM from Century Software. Ugh. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 22:37: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E2737B403; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.anderson@windriver.com) Received: from peale.wrs.com ([192.168.1.14]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13784; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> X-Sender: jasona@mail.wrs.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:00:44 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , John Baldwin From: "Jason S. Anderson" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crap@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B3A7898.3A4AD201@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Funny how these threads seemed to converge over the past 48 hours. Web services and .NET. Jordan's transition to Apple. GPL vs BSD licensing. Microsoft's "efforts" to participate in the open source arena. What I believe some of the early adopter crowd is beginning to realize is just how much overlap and interdependency there is between all of these different subjects. After all, what is .NET really? It's a new development platform, just as Win32, J2EE, *BSD, Solaris, and even PowerBuilder are all development platforms. What's different between each of them (on the surface) is the market or value chain they're trying to promote and the breadth of capability the platform offers to both developers and users. Licensing models directly impact the marketability of a particular platform, as well as the size of the supporting network of partners and commercial enterprises. IMHO, what I would interpret from Microsoft's activities over the past 18 months or so -- .NET, the GPL vendetta, supporting variant forms of open-source licensing -- as a survival reaction. It's clear that the traditional desktop application platform isn't going to scale through the next decade, and so they must either invent a new model or embrace other existing ones. They're hedging their bets by doing both, but I think I know which they hope will pan out. The question is what does it mean to FreeBSD? Like Microsoft, there is a need to establish an identity that will survive through the next decade. If anything, .NET could turn out to be a great opportunity to position BSD as a better .NET server than Windows. Microsoft still wins by establishing .NET as a viable framework and peddling their wares through web services, while becoming less dependent on monopolization of the operating system commodity. Now, if open source communities emerge to try and challenge .NET as a framework, that's a separate issue. I don't know how it affects "FreeBSD" per se, beyond considering support for more than one Net service framework. FreeBSD: your enterprise .NET server? -Jason (is crap@freebsd.org just an alias to -chat?) At 08:21 PM 6/27/01 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Well...yes, we are being used, but that's what BSD is about. > >All in all, we have two options..embrace them or ignore them, and the >final decision will be made by the end users. Are windoze users >interested in FreeBSD now? Is Yahoo (to mention one company, replace >any other name here) interested in .NET if it's more open than Java? > >What they are doing is perfectly legal and ethically correct; I don't >think they will be able to "squash" the GPL though. > >I think this will be good for FreeBSD.. but if the interested parties >are not careful it will bring harm to Linux and to Java. I don't care >much about the first one, and believe me...they will survive. About >Java and what it means to the Internet, let's say they are in great >danger unless they react now (and I don't think they will) but that is >not our fault. > >About these comments about breaking apart the Opensource community; >read well the FUD about BSD vs GPL and you will conclude that we have >never been together. This ends up being a slight advantage in favor of >Microsoft, but it's not MS's fault. As I said the could just as well >release them under the same license for Linux. > > Pedro. > >ps...what is crap@FreeBSD.org ... nevermind, I'll find out :). > >John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 27-Jun-01 Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > > > This is very cool! > > > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html > > > > I'm not sure it's really cool. M$ is just using us to snub the GPL crowd. > > Presumably if they actually manage to use BSD to squash the GPl, they > will just > > turn around and attack BSD next. > > > > -- > > > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson email: jasona@windriver.com Manager, FreeBSD Engineering Wind River To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 27 22:37: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13E2737B403; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason.anderson@windriver.com) Received: from peale.wrs.com ([192.168.1.14]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13784; Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> X-Sender: jasona@mail.wrs.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:00:44 -0700 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , John Baldwin From: "Jason S. Anderson" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crap@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3B3A7898.3A4AD201@pitt.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Funny how these threads seemed to converge over the past 48 hours. Web services and .NET. Jordan's transition to Apple. GPL vs BSD licensing. Microsoft's "efforts" to participate in the open source arena. What I believe some of the early adopter crowd is beginning to realize is just how much overlap and interdependency there is between all of these different subjects. After all, what is .NET really? It's a new development platform, just as Win32, J2EE, *BSD, Solaris, and even PowerBuilder are all development platforms. What's different between each of them (on the surface) is the market or value chain they're trying to promote and the breadth of capability the platform offers to both developers and users. Licensing models directly impact the marketability of a particular platform, as well as the size of the supporting network of partners and commercial enterprises. IMHO, what I would interpret from Microsoft's activities over the past 18 months or so -- .NET, the GPL vendetta, supporting variant forms of open-source licensing -- as a survival reaction. It's clear that the traditional desktop application platform isn't going to scale through the next decade, and so they must either invent a new model or embrace other existing ones. They're hedging their bets by doing both, but I think I know which they hope will pan out. The question is what does it mean to FreeBSD? Like Microsoft, there is a need to establish an identity that will survive through the next decade. If anything, .NET could turn out to be a great opportunity to position BSD as a better .NET server than Windows. Microsoft still wins by establishing .NET as a viable framework and peddling their wares through web services, while becoming less dependent on monopolization of the operating system commodity. Now, if open source communities emerge to try and challenge .NET as a framework, that's a separate issue. I don't know how it affects "FreeBSD" per se, beyond considering support for more than one Net service framework. FreeBSD: your enterprise .NET server? -Jason (is crap@freebsd.org just an alias to -chat?) At 08:21 PM 6/27/01 -0400, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Well...yes, we are being used, but that's what BSD is about. > >All in all, we have two options..embrace them or ignore them, and the >final decision will be made by the end users. Are windoze users >interested in FreeBSD now? Is Yahoo (to mention one company, replace >any other name here) interested in .NET if it's more open than Java? > >What they are doing is perfectly legal and ethically correct; I don't >think they will be able to "squash" the GPL though. > >I think this will be good for FreeBSD.. but if the interested parties >are not careful it will bring harm to Linux and to Java. I don't care >much about the first one, and believe me...they will survive. About >Java and what it means to the Internet, let's say they are in great >danger unless they react now (and I don't think they will) but that is >not our fault. > >About these comments about breaking apart the Opensource community; >read well the FUD about BSD vs GPL and you will conclude that we have >never been together. This ends up being a slight advantage in favor of >Microsoft, but it's not MS's fault. As I said the could just as well >release them under the same license for Linux. > > Pedro. > >ps...what is crap@FreeBSD.org ... nevermind, I'll find out :). > >John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 27-Jun-01 Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > > > This is very cool! > > > > > > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html > > > > I'm not sure it's really cool. M$ is just using us to snub the GPL crowd. > > Presumably if they actually manage to use BSD to squash the GPl, they > will just > > turn around and attack BSD next. > > > > -- > > > > John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ > > PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc > > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson email: jasona@windriver.com Manager, FreeBSD Engineering Wind River To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 0:47: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432C737B407; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:46:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f5S7jnl11832; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , "Rick Hamell" Cc: , Subject: RE: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 00:45:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Pedro F. Giffuni >Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 12:04 PM >To: Rick Hamell >Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! > > >(CCd to advocacy) > >Rick Hamell wrote: >> > >> > This is very cool! >> > >> > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/27/dotnet.html >> >> To bad the.NET project is Microsoft's latest attempt to take over >> the Internet.... :( >> >> Rick > >Resistance is futile, they will be assimilated ! ;) > >Seriously, Java is putting a serious weight so it won't be that easy. >They will have to have real technical merits to be successful in their >attempt. FWIW, it is really weird to find SUN somewhat ignoring us in >all this while MS is actually playing clean. > There's a reason for this that's not political. C# is not a money-making product now, Java is. Sun has enough to do fighting against the other money-making competitors to Java, they don't need to blow effort on fighting a competitive implementation that may die on the vine. >What is nice here is that in an unprecedented Press Release, Microsoft >is encouraging people to use FreeBSD. The could have released binaries >for Linux, after all most of this is userland code, but they chose us, >apparently with a very user friendly license, and whatever reason they >might have it is very good to have them around. > Keep in mind that Microsoft isn't releasing binaries for FreeBSD either - they are releasing source that compiles on FreeBSD. There's nothing preventing anyone from modifying that source and compiling it on Linux. Granted, some of their stuff they are going to be releasing will have a "non-commercial" license on it - but quite a number of Open Source programs have such licenses already. Take Sendmail - it's license is a "non-commercial" one in that it's illegal to take Sendmail 9.X and later code, compile it, and sell the compiled binary for other than a nominal media and handling fee. But, this certainly doesen't prevent people from using the Open Source version of Sendmail for Internet servers used in a commercial setting, for example. >Perhaps now that they are working with Corel on this, and FreeBSD is >one of the two supported platforms we can finally get a native port of >Corel's office suite. (there you go ... a plausible campaign). > I think it's much more likely to see Microsoft Office ported to FreeBSD. Consider they have to do 90% of the work already to port it to MacOS X. >I have this feeling that FreeBSD doesn't need more hackers, but rather >a real strategist. :-) Ah, you know, after all I _did_ write a book on interoperating Microsoft Windows and FreeBSD quite well in advance of anyone's predicting this shotgun wedding. BSD already _has_ some good strategists. However, your not necessairly going to find them working at BSDi. Look instead at the userbase. The problem is not _getting_ good strategists, we already have them. The problem is getting the BSD _userbase_ to _listen_ to the strategists. Unlike Linux, most BSD users are not interested in being soldiers in the "FreeBSD Army" and don't take orders very well, (or at all) nor are they much swayed by so-called "personal charisma" of a single leader. While this does keep us from taking advantage of "snap of the moment" incidents and grinding out the publicity mileage from them that the Linux camp is so good at doing, it is actually one of the movement's strengths. With Linux, they are so bent on Torvalds and so lockstepped with the road that he has laid out for them, that now even if they all wanted to change direction they can't, they are stuck on that path. With BSD, the movement has many different strategies operating at once and this gives us a resiliance that Linux doesen't have. Consider also that Microsoft is used to fighting a massive organization, they are specialists at it. I kind of think that someone at Microsoft sat down one day and looked at BSD and at Linux and asked the question: "We are opposed to both of what these groups are doing and ultimately we are going to come to blows with them if we both keep doing what we are doing. Can we successfully beat either of these groups?" I think the answer was that "we can beat Linux if we want to, we know how to beat that kind of organization. But, we cannot fight the wind in the fields, and if we attempt to fight BSD we will end up like the US Government did in Vietnam, we will spend millions of dollars and thousands of productive hours doing it and end up not making any difference" So, they decided if you can't beat them, join them. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 1:33:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1A337B407 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5S8XXp99812 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:33:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA11722 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:34:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:34:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:24:55PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 27, 2001 at 21:24:55: > At 4:01 PM +0800 6/27/01, David Xu wrote: > > > Too far to believe that MacOS X will have an X86 version. I don't want > > to buy Apple's expensive Hardware. I prefer to use cheap X86 hardware > > and has same or better performance and many choise. > > Mac hardware has become much less expensive in the last few > years, and in my experience tends to be pretty price competitive for > the same amount of performance (witness the fact that the closest > competing laptop to the new iBook is almost $1000 more). Where did you get that figure? It seems to me that you can get a laptop from Dell, with comparable or better features, for a price lower than the cheapest iBook (say $1200). > My best bet is that Apple will take some or all of this money and > buy out Motorola's participating in the PowerPC chip consortium, or > at least buy themselves the rights to design their own PowerPC chips > and then have Motorola, IBM, or some other company actually handle > the fabrication. Chip design needs a quite different kind of expertise from assembling machines or writing operating systems. Does Apple have it? Especially to keep up with the gigahertz wars between Intel and AMD? However, it seems IBM continues to be interested in PowerPC, and certainly has the expertise. I'm not sure Apple needs to get its hands dirty with that. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 3: 6:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBBDE37B403 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 03:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5SA67i29128; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 05:06:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 05:06:07 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Microsoft Message-ID: <20010628050606.P16816@futuresouth.com> References: <20010628111710.E9802@lpt.ens.fr> <001b01c0ffb7$2525b4a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001b01c0ffb7$2525b4a0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 02:46:03AM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat, because it's OT for -advocacy, and I had to say it ;] On Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 02:46:03AM -0700, a little birdie told me that Ted Mittelstaedt remarked > > I am not suggesting that they are planning right now to do this, I don't > know anyone at Microsoft. However, I'm stating that when they start down > the Open Source cooperation path that eventually they won't have a choice. Once you start down the Open Source path, forever will it dominate your destiny! -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 4:21:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8CA37B401 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 04:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) Received: from [192.168.1.60] (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f5SBLF008487 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:21:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:21:03 -0400 From: Stuart Krivis To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> In-Reply-To: <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0b1 (Mac OS X Demo) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Thursday, June 28, 2001 10:34 AM +0200 Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> >> Mac hardware has become much less expensive in the last few >> years, and in my experience tends to be pretty price competitive for >> the same amount of performance (witness the fact that the closest >> competing laptop to the new iBook is almost $1000 more). > > Where did you get that figure? It seems to me that you can get a > laptop from Dell, with comparable or better features, for a price > lower than the cheapest iBook (say $1200). I've been looking at the iBook and it sells for $1299. It includes more for that money than anything I've seen in the x86 world. >> My best bet is that Apple will take some or all of this money and >> buy out Motorola's participating in the PowerPC chip consortium, or >> at least buy themselves the rights to design their own PowerPC chips >> and then have Motorola, IBM, or some other company actually handle >> the fabrication. I don't see this happening at all. Apple does need to quit pissing off Motorola, but I don't see that Apple has the expertise to design a CPU. > > Chip design needs a quite different kind of expertise from assembling > machines or writing operating systems. Does Apple have it? > Especially to keep up with the gigahertz wars between Intel and AMD? Why do they need to keep up with the "gigahertz wars?" A 1 GHz Intel chip does not do the same amount of work as a 1 GHz PowerPC chip, or even a 1 GHz Athlon. Chip speeds are for marketing only. Since that's the case, Apple just needs to figure out how to come up with something like the "PR" that AMD and Cyrix were using. It might look like a 766 MHz PPC 1.5 GHz P4 rating. There's got to be _some_ way of getting across the idea that you can't go strictly by the clock frequency of the CPU. Maybe they should start writing it as 766,000 KHz. That sounds bigger than anything Intel has. :-) > > However, it seems IBM continues to be interested in PowerPC, and > certainly has the expertise. I'm not sure Apple needs to get its > hands dirty with that. This assumes that IBM actually cares about a PPC that is suitable for a desktop machine. I don't think they are. They aim the PPC at SPARC, PA-RISC, MIPS, and Alpha. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 6:11:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E207437B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5SDBLp31977 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:11:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA22260 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:12:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:12:28 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Stuart Krivis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010628151228.N9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]>; from ipswitch@apk.net on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 07:21:03AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Krivis said on Jun 28, 2001 at 07:21:03: > >> Mac hardware has become much less expensive in the last few > >> years, and in my experience tends to be pretty price competitive for > >> the same amount of performance (witness the fact that the closest > >> competing laptop to the new iBook is almost $1000 more). > > > > Where did you get that figure? It seems to me that you can get a > > laptop from Dell, with comparable or better features, for a price > > lower than the cheapest iBook (say $1200). > > I've been looking at the iBook and it sells for $1299. It includes more for > that money than anything I've seen in the x86 world. Well, let's see: according to Apple's web page, http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore?family=iBook and according to Dell's web page the $1299 Apple comes with: I can configure a $1314 Dell system with: 12.1 inch TFT XGA display 14 inch TFT XGA 500 MHz G3 700 MHz PIII 64MB SDRAM 128 MB SDRAM 10GB UltraATA hard drive 10GB UltraATA hard drive CDROM drive CDROM drive 10/100BASE-T ethernet 10/100+56K internal modem 56K internal modem I can save $100 on the Dell by going for a Celeron, which I'm happy to do; $50 by going for a 5GB drive, also acceptable; and $75 by going for 64MB RAM -- not acceptable. That's just me, of course. Whichever way you calculate, I don't see a price difference of $1000, or anything else particularly compelling about the iBook. > > Chip design needs a quite different kind of expertise from assembling > > machines or writing operating systems. Does Apple have it? > > Especially to keep up with the gigahertz wars between Intel and AMD? > > Why do they need to keep up with the "gigahertz wars?" A 1 GHz Intel chip > does not do the same amount of work as a 1 GHz PowerPC chip, or even a 1 > GHz Athlon. Chip speeds are for marketing only. That's the point. > Since that's the case, Apple just needs to figure out how to come up with > something like the "PR" that AMD and Cyrix were using. It might look like a > 766 MHz PPC 1.5 GHz P4 rating. I haven't used a PPC myself, but from what benchmarks I've seen, the difference isn't *that* great. Besides, the real bottlenecks in a system are elsewhere: RAM, disk I/O, etc. That's why I don't mind using a Celeron, especially on a laptop. > > However, it seems IBM continues to be interested in PowerPC, and > > certainly has the expertise. I'm not sure Apple needs to get its > > hands dirty with that. > > This assumes that IBM actually cares about a PPC that is suitable for a > desktop machine. I don't think they are. They aim the PPC at SPARC, > PA-RISC, MIPS, and Alpha. Well, but the chip's the same -- I don't see why Apple would mind if IBM is aiming for more power. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 6:51:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14B9C37B401 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5SDpHp36850 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:51:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA23929 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:52:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:52:23 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Stuart Krivis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010628155223.Q9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]>; from ipswitch@apk.net on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 07:21:03AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Krivis said on Jun 28, 2001 at 07:21:03: > > >> My best bet is that Apple will take some or all of this money and > >> buy out Motorola's participating in the PowerPC chip consortium, or > >> at least buy themselves the rights to design their own PowerPC chips > >> and then have Motorola, IBM, or some other company actually handle > >> the fabrication. > > > I don't see this happening at all. Apple does need to quit pissing off > Motorola, but I don't see that Apple has the expertise to design a CPU. Hm. But maybe he knows something we didn't... http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/20038.html R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:15:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3903F37B406; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SEFSY24833; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:15:28 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:10:22 +0200 To: "Jason S. Anderson" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , John Baldwin From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crap@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:00 PM -0700 6/27/01, Jason S. Anderson wrote: > The question is what does it mean to FreeBSD? Like Microsoft, there > is a need to establish an identity that will survive through the > next decade. If anything, .NET could turn out to be a great > opportunity to position BSD as a better .NET server than Windows. Problem is, FreeBSD (and Unix in general) is already a better Windows Services server than Microsoft -- just look at Tom Limoncelli's paper "Providing Reliable NT Desktop Services by Avoiding NT Server" at . However, this fact doesn't seem to be helping many people, and indeed, it seems that most of the Universe is completely and blissfully ignorant of this fact. I don't think that the situation could possibly improve with .NET. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:15:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3903F37B406; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SEFSY24833; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:15:28 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:10:22 +0200 To: "Jason S. Anderson" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , John Baldwin From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crap@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 8:00 PM -0700 6/27/01, Jason S. Anderson wrote: > The question is what does it mean to FreeBSD? Like Microsoft, there > is a need to establish an identity that will survive through the > next decade. If anything, .NET could turn out to be a great > opportunity to position BSD as a better .NET server than Windows. Problem is, FreeBSD (and Unix in general) is already a better Windows Services server than Microsoft -- just look at Tom Limoncelli's paper "Providing Reliable NT Desktop Services by Avoiding NT Server" at . However, this fact doesn't seem to be helping many people, and indeed, it seems that most of the Universe is completely and blissfully ignorant of this fact. I don't think that the situation could possibly improve with .NET. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:16: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C8DB37B406; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SEFVY24888; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:15:35 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> References: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:14:10 +0200 To: "Ted Mittelstaedt" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , "Rick Hamell" From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Cc: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:45 AM -0700 6/28/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Take Sendmail - it's license is a > "non-commercial" one in that it's illegal to take Sendmail 9.X and later > code, compile it, and sell the compiled binary for other than a nominal > media and handling fee. Uh, where have you seen a license for Sendmail 9.x? The latest version of sendmail I know of is 8.12 (IIRC, currently still in beta), although I have heard of the name that has been attached as the release engineer for 8.13. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:20:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D5337B401 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SEFbY24983; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:15:37 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:13:57 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:34 AM +0200 6/28/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: you get that figure? It seems to me that you can get a > laptop from Dell, with comparable or better features, for a price > lower than the cheapest iBook (say $1200). Okay, let's start with the two major lines, Inspiron and Latitude, at , and compare this with the iBook (see ). The closest Inspiron model is the 2100 (see ), with a 12.1" XGA display, Pentium III@700Mhz, 128MB of RAM (256MB max, not user upgradeable), 10/100 Base-T Ethernet interface, 56Kbps modem, ATI Rage Mobility M graphics chip w/ 4MB SGRAM, 3.4 lbs (w/ 4-cell battery, 3.6 lbs with 6-cell battery), 1.01" thick, 10.7" wide, 8.66" deep, and $1699 for the lowest-cost model. According to the technical specifications at , it can last either 1 hr. 40 min. or 2 hrs. 30 min., depending on which battery you install (4-cell or 6-cell). They currently have a promotion with a free upgrade to a 20GB hard drive, and you can get either a $100 mail-in rebate (which is what brings it down to $1699) or a $100 discount on the external DVD-ROM drive (again, brings it down to $1699). Let's take a look at the iBook. The lowest-priced model is $1299 (the DVD-ROM model starts out at $1499). It is 11.2" wide, 9.1" deep, and 1.35 inches thick, weighs 4.9 lbs, has a 12.1" XGA display, 500Mhz PowerPC G3 (and we all know that G3 chips get a lot more work out of each Mhz than Intel Pentium chips), 64MB or 128MB of SDRAM (128MB on the DVD-ROM model), user-upgradeable to at least 640MB with an additional 1.25" SODIMM module, 10/100 Base-T Ethernet interface, 56Kbps modem, 10GB hard drive (20GB optional upgrade), Rage Mobility 128 video chip with 8MB RAM, dual USB ports, firewire port, and 5-hour battery. Upgrading the hard drive to 20GB costs $200. This would bring the DVD-ROM model up to $1699. However, let's note what the Inspiron is missing. It doesn't have an internal CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, you instead have to use the external media bay. The battery doesn't last nearly as long as the iBook (half as long, with their 6-cell battery). Also note that the Inspiron has a much slower video display chip, with half as much video RAM. It doesn't have a firewire port, and only one USB port. With regards to weight and size, I don't know what it would add to carry around an extra battery, plus the external media bay, plus the DVD-ROM drive plugged into the external media bay, but I have to believe that all this would add up to at least an additional 1.3 lbs, and probably quite a bit more. Moreover, with the much slower video card (with half as much RAM), and no internal firewire port, the Inspiron would be worthless as a highly portable video editing machine, which is a role the iBook fits quite well. These same failings make it considerably less suitable for a lot of other roles, too. And what if you don't (or can't) spend $1699 to buy a mini-notebook? With Dell, you simply have no other option. At least with the iBook, you can drop the DVD-ROM drive, drop the amount of RAM, drop the hard drive back down to 10GB, and still get something quite useful (and very upgrade-able) for $1299 -- that's a 30% reduction in price, which is quite significant to many people. If you want something from Dell more comparable in terms of features, you have to start with the Dell Latitude L400, which has a starting price of $1939, still has only one USB port, no firewire ports, slower ATI Rage Mobility M graphics chip with only 4MB SGRAM, starts off with a 6GB hard drive (20GB adds $179), CD-ROM instead of DVD-ROM (add $70 to upgrade), and I can't find anything about battery life, but it comes with a 4-cell battery standard (6-cell costs $49 extra), and I'm sure that the life can't be too different from the Inspiron. No, frankly, Dell just doesn't have a machine that can compare. The machines that Dell has that are closer in terms of feature parity all have larger screens and are much, much more expensive, or based on older and cheaper technology and weigh a lot more, etc.... I have recently found out about a website at for a company that specializes in locating ultra-portable laptop models from a variety of companies, and putting them all together on one site. You can even select three of the several different models they have and do head-to-head comparisons of the models. From what I briefly saw, it looked like there might be some laptops out there from other companies that can better compare with the iBook on features, but they're also much more expensive. > Chip design needs a quite different kind of expertise from assembling > machines or writing operating systems. Does Apple have it? This is why I'm saying that Apple could spend money to hire certain people away from Motorola, and spend a lot more money to obtain the rights to have someone else produce their own in-house chip designs, and allow Motorola to focus exclusively on the embedded market. > Especially to keep up with the gigahertz wars between Intel and AMD? As we know, Mhz and Ghz are meaningless. What matters is how much real work gets done, and that depends on the internal architecture of the chip, how parallelized it is, how many simultaneous instructions it can perform, how many instructions it takes to perform various operations, how well the compilers take advantage of the chip features, etc.... If you want to talk about Ghz, you might as well start talking about MIPS and MFLOPs. They're about as useless for determining real-world performance of a CPU chip as Ghz is. > However, it seems IBM continues to be interested in PowerPC, and > certainly has the expertise. I'm not sure Apple needs to get its > hands dirty with that. IBM is mainly interested in the server market, the Power4 multi-chip architecture, etc.... Unfortunately, although all three companies are interested in PowerPC, they are each focussing on a different part of the market, and Apple is getting squeezed out of the picture in terms of controlling where PowerPC is going to go. I think that they could buy themselves a bigger piece of the pie and have more control over where they help take PowerPC, by taking some of their four billion dollars they've got in the bank and transferring that to Motorola, in exchange for some chip design personnel and additional production rights to the architecture, et.... -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:24: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526A537B405 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SEFdY25025; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:15:40 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:19:56 +0200 To: Stuart Krivis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 7:21 AM -0400 6/28/01, Stuart Krivis wrote: > I don't see this happening at all. Apple does need to quit pissing off > Motorola, but I don't see that Apple has the expertise to design a CPU. No, the issue is that Motorola is seriously hurting right now (because of market turndown in a lot of their other segments), and they're simply not focused on the desktop computer market, so they're not delivering to Apple the kinds of chips Apple needs at the speeds Apple needs, or in the timeframe Apple needs. IBM is doing a better job of this, but they are still primarily focused on the server market. I believe that Apple could buy their way into the chip design business, by giving a lot of money to Motorola and effectively making them a junior partner in the PowerPC consortium. Motorola could continue to do whatever they want in the embedded market, but Apple would no longer have their destiny controlled by a company that is suffering from a serious loss of business focus, is having lots of management difficulties, and is rather disinterested in whatever happens to Apple. IMO, Apple really has no choice. They have to be able to take their destiny into their own hands. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:29:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5E737B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SESwO12800; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:28:58 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010628151228.N9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> <20010628151228.N9802@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:26:42 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Stuart Krivis From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:12 PM +0200 6/28/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > the $1299 Apple comes with: I can configure a $1314 Dell system with: > 12.1 inch TFT XGA display 14 inch TFT XGA > 500 MHz G3 700 MHz PIII > 64MB SDRAM 128 MB SDRAM > 10GB UltraATA hard drive 10GB UltraATA hard drive > CDROM drive CDROM drive > 10/100BASE-T ethernet 10/100+56K internal modem > 56K internal modem You're not comparing models with like features, like sizes and weights, like battery lifes, etc.... This comparison is totally meaningless. If you want to make a proper comparison, you've got to get as close to exactly the same configuration as possible on both machines. > Whichever way you calculate, I don't see a price difference > of $1000, or anything else particularly compelling about the iBook. See my other post on this subject, which does a more proper comparison of like with like. > I haven't used a PPC myself, but from what benchmarks I've seen, the > difference isn't *that* great. Besides, the real bottlenecks in a > system are elsewhere: RAM, disk I/O, etc. That's why I don't mind > using a Celeron, especially on a laptop. PowerPC is able to do a lot more work per Mhz than Intel or Intel-compatible chips. Therefore comparing Mhz of one chip to Mhz of another is a completely and totally wasted operation. > Well, but the chip's the same -- I don't see why Apple would mind if > IBM is aiming for more power. No, read the other messages. The chip is *NOT* the same. IBM has the Power4 multi-chip CPU architecture that they are most interested in. For desktop machines, they're mostly taking old versions of the G3 chip and ramping up their speed, which is not what Apple needs. For Motorola, they're mostly interested in the embedded market, which needs ultra-low power drain, so they're not investing nearly enough time, money, or effort into development of the G4 chips that Apple *does* need, or the new G5 chips that Apple will soon need. Therefore, Apple needs to be able to take their destiny into their own hands, and create their own chip designs that are optimized for the desktop and laptop markets, and then be able to farm out the fabrication to appropriate companies. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:30:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E453637B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5SEUIp42198 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:30:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA25921 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:31:24 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:31:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010628163124.R9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:13:57PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 28, 2001 at 15:13:57: > > And what if you don't (or can't) spend $1699 to buy a > mini-notebook? With Dell, you simply have no other option. At least > with the iBook, you can drop the DVD-ROM drive, drop the amount of > RAM, drop the hard drive back down to 10GB, and still get something > quite useful (and very upgrade-able) for $1299 -- that's a 30% > reduction in price, which is quite significant to many people. > > If you want something from Dell more comparable in terms of > features, you have to start with the Dell Latitude L400, which has a > starting price of $1939 How about the Inspiron 2500? I gave details in an earlier mail. Or the Inspiron 4000? Basic model $1557, with a 14 inch screen and 128 MB RAM. If you don't want a DVD-ROM and you only want a 1 year warranty, it comes down to $1379. Not sure of the graphics card. To me, a 14 inch display makes a big difference over a 12 inch one. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 7:38:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76A5D37B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5SEcLp43272 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:38:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id QAA26212 ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:39:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:39:28 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: Stuart Krivis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010628163927.U9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <2515701.993712862@[192.168.1.60]> <20010628151228.N9802@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:26:42PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 28, 2001 at 16:26:42: > At 3:12 PM +0200 6/28/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > the $1299 Apple comes with: I can configure a $1314 Dell system with: > > 12.1 inch TFT XGA display 14 inch TFT XGA > > 500 MHz G3 700 MHz PIII > > 64MB SDRAM 128 MB SDRAM > > 10GB UltraATA hard drive 10GB UltraATA hard drive > > CDROM drive CDROM drive > > 10/100BASE-T ethernet 10/100+56K internal modem > > 56K internal modem > > You're not comparing models with like features, like sizes and > weights, like battery lifes, etc.... This comparison is totally > meaningless. > > If you want to make a proper comparison, you've got to get as > close to exactly the same configuration as possible on both machines. Ok I didn't account for the weights and battery lives. (But I don't mind a bigger notebook with less battery life if it has a larger screen.) As for other features, the ones above are what are important to me. The Dell looks clearly superior, especially if I replace the pentium with a celeron, saving $100 (I've never noticed a difference on a desktop machine). R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 9:15:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F229337B403; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1153"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5AT47HRH6002IJ6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:15:48 EST Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:26:10 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: "Jason S. Anderson" Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3B5AA2.B834512D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010627194638.01ad1970@mail.wrs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason S. Anderson" wrote: > ... > > IMHO, what I would interpret from Microsoft's activities over the > past 18 months or so -- .NET, the GPL vendetta, supporting variant > forms of open-source licensing -- as a survival reaction. It's clear > that the traditional desktop application platform isn't going to > scale through the next decade, and so they must either invent a new > model or embrace other existing ones. They're hedging their bets by > doing both, but I think I know which they hope will pan out. > Some months ago there was an article in the Wall Street Journal that suggested MS .NET strategy as a response to two factors: 1) An evident loss of revenue: most of MS's revenue comes from new computer sells and those are not doing well either. By changing the licenseing model to a subscription type they could leverage better the market and would be less dependant on making new releases. 2) The antitrust trial; by making office OS independent but still controlable by microsoft, the eventual split in the company could be made irrelevant. > The question is what does it mean to FreeBSD? Like Microsoft, there > is a need to establish an identity that will survive through the > next decade. If anything, .NET could turn out to be a great > opportunity to position BSD as a better .NET server than Windows. > Microsoft still wins by establishing .NET as a viable framework and > peddling their wares through web services, while becoming less > dependent on monopolization of the operating system commodity. > I think they noticed the big flaw in .NET strategy. Even when they have worked hard to gain control of the Internet, .NET will not be successful if it isn't accepted by the unix domains on the network. Notice, however, that they chose very well how to refer to FreeBSD: "FreeBSD has traditionally been an operating system that encouraged unencumbered experimentation. ... And that's what we're using it for." If MS is not split up (and that is clearly their expectation) they can say "we worked with the community and we created a new standard, but of course, the Windows platform still rules." If MS is split up they will have arguments to play on a license friendly platform and not in a GPL world. FreeBSD can also be their fallback plan to resist pressure to produce a linux port of MS Office. Admittedly the people in Microsoft are not dumb at all. They are not doing this because they are "good citizens" either but I still don't see anything bad on this for FreeBSD. The one negative effect I can foresee is most GPL fundamentalists will hate us ..but wait!! they already do :). Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 9:45:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47B7F37B406; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:45:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1187"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5AU6CNFJK002IJ6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:45:46 EST Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:56:08 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3B61A8.AEFE2888@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > ... > > Keep in mind that Microsoft isn't releasing binaries for FreeBSD either - > they are releasing source that compiles on FreeBSD. There's nothing > preventing anyone from modifying that source and compiling it on Linux. > Yeah, it seems like they are being clean and that they didn't misundertand free software at all. It was also interesting to see that most of the Slashdot comments were not really negative. > > I think it's much more likely to see Microsoft Office ported to FreeBSD. > Consider they have to do 90% of the work already to port it to MacOS X. > As I wrote on another email: if they are split they will certainly consider it. My hope would be that Corel understands this before MS does. I am gladly surprised by Microsoft's approach but that doesn't mean I like them. > >I have this feeling that FreeBSD doesn't need more hackers, but rather > >a real strategist. > > :-) Ah, you know, after all I _did_ write a book on interoperating > Microsoft Windows and FreeBSD quite well in advance of anyone's predicting > this > shotgun wedding. > > BSD already _has_ some good strategists. However, your not necessairly > going to find them working at BSDi. Look instead at the userbase. The > problem is not _getting_ good strategists, we already have them. The > problem > is getting the BSD _userbase_ to _listen_ to the strategists. Unlike > Linux, most BSD users are not interested in being soldiers in the "FreeBSD > Army" and don't take orders very well, (or at all) nor are they much swayed > by so-called "personal charisma" of a single leader. > OK probably I meant a (strategist + leader). Linux doesn't have them either... their leaders are clowns and the lusers like to laugh so it's some sort of a circus there ;). I gave it a thought overnight, and it's actually better not to have clowns: we have overlooked something very important that has ocurred recently: The FreeBSD Foundation. The Foundation is definitely the instrument to set the guidelines and manage our resources and interests as a group. Hmm...perhaps Microsoft will do a generous donation now :). > I think the answer was that "we can beat Linux if we want to, we know how to > beat that kind of organization. But, we cannot fight the wind in the > fields, and if we attempt to fight BSD we will end up like the US Government > did in Vietnam, we will spend millions of dollars and thousands of > productive hours doing it and end up not making any difference" So, they > decided if you can't beat them, join them. > Yes, Microsoft has always known about FreeBSD. Gates and friends are rich enough that they don't care very much what happens; for them this is just a game where they want to continue being number one. I think your term "shotgun wedding" is what best describes the situation :). This will not be exactly a long term marriage though.. but FreeBSD has much to gain and nothing to lose. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 11: 4:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A02837B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1128"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5AWXAS9LY002IJ6@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:04:46 EST Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:15:09 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Oh sh*t (Microsoft again) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3B742D.955C6B5D@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B3B61A8.AEFE2888@pitt.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well I guess we should have expected it http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010628/ts/microsoft_ruling_dc_2.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 15:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29FD37B40A for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bartequi@neomedia.it) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.3/8.10.1) id f5SMJeJ21186; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:19:40 +0200 (CEST) To: Andrew Reid Subject: WaaaaaaaayOT: Re: admin software Message-ID: <993766779.3b3bad7bc2e55@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:19:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Robert Heron , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.237.170 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Waaaaaaaaaaaay Off Topic, and moved to -chat ] On 06/28/01, 2:19:07 AM, Andrew Reid scripsisse videtur/creditur^W^W^W seems/is believed to have written: "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur" ^ ^ ^ ^ I am not quite sure this sentence is fully correct. "latine" should be written "Latine"; "viditur" should be "videtur" (video, es, [...], ere). BTW, the Indicative ("dictum est") is normal here, and is generally more frequent -- cf "quisquis es", "quisquis ille est", etc. Dicto citius. Conformatio sententiarum permanet, quibuscumque verbis uti velis (Cic.). Nihil dico amplius :-) -- Salvo P.S. courtesy translation services for free: "dicto citius" (=citius quam dici potest) ~ "in no time, with no delay"; "conformatio sententiarum [...]" ~ (freely translated) "the figures of thought remain, whatever the words you want to use"; "nihil dico amplius" ~ (roughly) "I'll say no more". Remark More important, some people might question the **content** of the sentence you built ("quidquid Latine dictum [...]"): they may prefer eg classical Greek, or Sanskrit... :-)) "Quisquis amores aut metuat dulces aut experietur amaros..." (Verg.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 15:48:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D2537B405 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:48:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f5SMmFY13168; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 00:48:16 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010628163124.R9802@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <20010628163124.R9802@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:25:36 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:31 PM +0200 6/28/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > How about the Inspiron 2500? I gave details in an earlier > mail. No, the Inspiron 2100 is the closest model. Comparing the iBook with anything else is just not appropriate. > Or the Inspiron 4000? Basic model $1557, with a 14 inch screen > and 128 MB RAM. If you don't want a DVD-ROM and you only want a 1 > year warranty, it comes down to $1379. Not sure of the graphics card. > To me, a 14 inch display makes a big difference over a 12 inch one. If you're dead set on buying a Dell, and you've bought into the Michael Dell Reality Distortion field, then go ahead and buy whatever the hell it is that you want. There's no sense you even bothering to talk about anything else, and wasting everyone's time. -- Brad Knowles, /* efdtt.c Author: Charles M. Hannum */ /* Represented as 1045 digit prime number by Phil Carmody */ /* Prime as DNS cname chain by Roy Arends and Walter Belgers */ /* */ /* Usage is: cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob */ /* where title-key = "153 2 8 105 225" or other similar 5-byte key */ dig decss.friet.org|perl -ne'if(/^x/){s/[x.]//g;print pack(H124,$_)}' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 16:43: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9946D37B403; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5SNgq514765; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: Ted Mittelstaedt X-Authentication-Warning: mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com: nobody set sender to tedm@toybox.placo.com using -f To: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Message-ID: <993771771.3b3bc0fbe0737@mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <000401c0ffa6$58c2f680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.3 X-Originating-IP: 205.139.102.133 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Brad Knowles : > At 12:45 AM -0700 6/28/01, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > Take Sendmail - it's license is a > > "non-commercial" one in that it's illegal to take Sendmail 9.X and > later > > code, compile it, and sell the compiled binary for other than a > nominal > > media and handling fee. > > Uh, where have you seen a license for Sendmail 9.x? The latest Oops - how embarassing, I meant 8.9 (and later)! Ted To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 21: 8: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (mailhost.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DB1B37B406 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:28:46 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54E5@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Reverse Lookup Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:28:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does the mailing list do reverse lookups on our e-mail addresses, and how? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 21: 8: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (mailhost.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD5937B40B for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:50:37 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54DF@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Did you test it Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:50:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- Etienne de Bruin : eT@quidel.com Quidel Corporation : http://www.quidel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 21: 8: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (mailhost.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ABEC37B40A for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:50:17 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54DE@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Where can I test? Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:50:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- Etienne de Bruin : eT@quidel.com Quidel Corporation : http://www.quidel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 28 21:25:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (mailhost.quidel.com [63.125.144.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4D237B40B for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:25:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:31:45 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54E6@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Apologies, very much. Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:31:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dunno what got into my mail-thingie. eT -- Etienne de Bruin : eT@quidel.com Quidel Corporation : http://www.quidel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 1:23: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13604.mail.yahoo.com (web13604.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1161C37B409 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010629082252.49013.qmail@web13604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13604.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:22:52 PDT Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:22:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: ther peopl ther, Evil People To: chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Marty Nelson To: "NT System Admin Issues" Subject: RE: Lotus Notes vs. Exchange Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:42:17 -0700 Reply-to: "NT System Admin Issues" I tend to agree with you Roger. Where the configuration files reside is of little to no consequence to me. What interests me however is your statement that Notes is horrible from an e-mail perspective. I am looking to upgrade our current e-mail system (Exchange 5.0) to a more current system I simply though Exchange 2000. I didn't even consider Notes, and I'm not even sure why. It just didn't occur to me. We are currently an Exchange 5.0 shop, so the obvious next step to me would be Exchange 2000. The problem I am having is that the there are people here, people that make the decisions, that don't want to go the Microsoft route, simply because it's Microsoft. What I was hoping for was to be able to show them that Exchange is better because....Or if it turns out Notes is better then here's why. ----------------------------- Marty Nelson, MCSE, MCP+I, A+ Network Administrator Transdyn Controls, Inc mnelson@transdyn.com ----------------------------- I Used to Be Schizophrenic, but We're OK Now -----Original Message----- From: Roger Seielstad [mailto:roger.seielstad@peregrine.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 1:24 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: Lotus Notes vs. Exchange I think its important to note that, from an administrative standpoint, proper procedures either offset or completely eliminate what Christopher considers advantages in the Notes model. Also, there is no reason (unless you are into that kind of thing) that one needs to consider the placement of the configuration settings, and I fail to see a significant advantage of the Notes ini file model, considering all other major apps on Windows use the registry for configuration. From an email perspective, Notes is horrible, and apparently not getting any better. Although its multiple products, Microsoft's E2k (or 5.5) and Sharepoint Portal Server, with the same level of development necessary for Notes, appears to be able to perform most if not all of the same functions. About 2=3 years ago, Exchange surpased Notes in seats, meaninging that more people use Exchange than Notes. But that probably doesn't mean a whole lot. What should matter is which fits your real and perceived business needs for the next few years? That should be the basis for your decsision. Roger ------------------------------------------------------ Roger D. Seielstad - MCSE MCT Senior Network Administrator Peregrine Systems Atlanta, GA http://www.peregrine.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Marty Nelson [mailto:MNelson@Transdyn.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 4:12 PM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: Lotus Notes vs. Exchange > > > Thanks for the responses. Now that I've received a total of > 2 responses ;) > what do you all think the overall market percentage lotus > notes holds is? > I've heard 30%. I tend to think that's a little high, but then again, > that's why I'm asking! > > Thanks, > > ----------------------------- > Marty Nelson, MCSE, MCP+I, A+ > Network Administrator > Transdyn Controls, Inc > mnelson@transdyn.com > ----------------------------- > > Nice doggie. - Famous Last Words > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher Monahan [mailto:CMonahan@e-travel.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 7:09 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: Lotus Notes vs. Exchange > > > I can't comment as a mail admin, but as a sysadmin and mail > user I prefer > notes. Note, this was under v4.5. I haven't been near it since. > > User: > -Synchronisation with remote computer much better. > -I happen to like the client interface better. > > Admin: > -I prefer to run individual mailboxes instead of a single > information > store despited the extra storage. It's easy to see who has > big mailboxes. > -Migrating is as easy as stopping Notes, copying the file, > and starting > Notes (and probably a change to the directory, aka the 'Name > and Address > Book'). You can use an open file manager to back up the > individual mail > database files instead of an agent. Actually, for backup we used to > replication all the mail servers to one server and then stop > Notes on that > server to do the backup. The mail admin then had a quick > place to recover a > user's mail db from the day before. > -I think there were two registry entries, performance > related, for the > server. Everthing was kept in either the directory or an .ini file. > -Recovery was as easy as 1)clean install of NT, 2) clean > install of Notes, > 3) add Notes server to directory, 4) begin restoring Notes > db's. Important > point: Notes is up and running during the db restore process. > If someone > tries to access their mail the server says file not found or > something. > After the db is restored they get in. I lost one server > completely and > while I was restoring the individual databases (step 4 from > above) users > whose database file was restored were using mail. The data > was on three > tapes, so I had the local drive restoring one tape, and two > other servers > restoring to the Notes server over the network from their tape drives. > Database were restored in alphabetical order from the three > tapes. So the > A's, J's, and R's (roughly) got access to their mail before > the I's, Q's, > and Z's. > > my nickel > > > hth > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Marty Nelson [mailto:MNelson@Transdyn.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:28 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: Lotus Notes vs. Exchange > > > What is the consensus regarding Lotus i-notes vs. Exchange > 2000 or even 5.5? > I am forced to ask this, so please try and keep the flames to > a minimum :). > Management wants to upgrade our mail system (currently > Exchange 5.0) to > something bigger and better (good idea huh!). We currently > have around 100 > users, as well as a dozen or so external who also use our mail system. > > I want to go the Exchange 2000 route, but as usual, they want > options. I > would greatly appreciate your thoughts. > > Thanks, > > ------------------------------------- > Marty Nelson, MCSE, MCP+I, A+ > Network Administrator > Transdyn Controls, Inc. > mnelson@transdyn.com > ------------------------------------- > > Murphy's Second Fundamental Law: Before anything can be done, > something else > must be done first! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 1:23: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECFC037B408 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 01:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5T8N1p23095 ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:23:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA63288 ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:24:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:24:08 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So what happens to FreeBSD now? Message-ID: <20010629102408.C61955@lpt.ens.fr> References: <200106260901.AA23134284@stmail.pace.edu> <20010626084126W.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <2425994267.20010627160101@163.net> <20010628103439.C9802@lpt.ens.fr> <20010628163124.R9802@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Jun 28, 2001 at 09:25:36PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Jun 28, 2001 at 21:25:36: > At 4:31 PM +0200 6/28/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > How about the Inspiron 2500? I gave details in an earlier > > mail. > > No, the Inspiron 2100 is the closest model. Comparing the iBook > with anything else is just not appropriate. > > > Or the Inspiron 4000? Basic model $1557, with a 14 inch screen > > and 128 MB RAM. If you don't want a DVD-ROM and you only want a 1 > > year warranty, it comes down to $1379. Not sure of the graphics card. > > To me, a 14 inch display makes a big difference over a 12 inch one. > > If you're dead set on buying a Dell, and you've bought into the > Michael Dell Reality Distortion field, then go ahead and buy whatever > the hell it is that you want. I just picked Dell as an example. I've seen models with comparable features at comparable prices in shops (Acer, Asus, I think also Sonys) but couldn't be bothered to dig out details of feature sets. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 3: 1: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE43137B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jazepeda@pacbell.net) Received: from zippy.mybox.zip ([207.214.149.85]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GFO0047MRSVV7@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by zippy.mybox.zip (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CF99A180B; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 03:00:30 -0700 From: Alex Zepeda Subject: Re: US checking accounts for non-US residents In-reply-to: <"from adam"@whizkidtech.net> To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20010629030030.A67737@zippy.mybox.zip> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i References: <3.0.6.32.20010627004842.008dadc0@mail85.pair.com> <3.0.6.32.20010627145956.00ab4e30@mail85.pair.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:59:56PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Most banks, even in the US, do have monthly minimums and charge you > "account maintenance fees" if you go below that. That is the fee I > object to, and refuse to open an account in a bank that has one. Yup, most banks do charge a monthly service fee. However, I've found that Bank of America has an account that works pretty well for me. No minimum balance, free ATM, etc. No monthly fee *if* I direct deposit something within that statement period. However they'll hit me up for money if I visit a live person. There are probably all sorts of evils with direct deposit, but as long as I'm working, this becomes essentially an account with no monthly fee. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 6:31:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC6B37B407 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] ident=root) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15FyMm-000F8x-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:31:24 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f5TDVOl60516 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:31:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:31:24 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Win2k a rewrite or not??? Message-ID: <20010629143124.B60314@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've heard win2k was a near total re-write of the codebase, and i've heard it is just a relabeled, reworked NT would-have-been 5.0. Does anybody know the truth on this? Jonathon -- Microsoft complaining about the source license used by Linux is like the event horizon calling the kettle black. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 9:39:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E1337B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02449; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:39:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010629103758.0481fb30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:38:57 -0600 To: Kris Kirby , Pedro F Giffuni From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Mercury News forum slanted toward GPL Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <3B31B719.D085C967@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Theo was actually remarkably calm and pleasant at the USENIX BSD BOF. --Brett At 08:40 AM 6/29/2001, Kris Kirby wrote: >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Pedro F Giffuni wrote: >> IMHO the amount of dust that will be raised will not achieve anything >> against or in favor of the BSDs. Want to make it interesting? Invite >> Theo :). > >Oh, that's good for a quick laugh. :) > >----- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | >------------------------------------------------------- >"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 10:13:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.pace.edu (ntutil.pace.edu [205.232.111.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8242B37B406 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:13:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from js43064n@pace.edu) Received: from stmail.pace.edu (205.232.111.7:2702) by smtp.pace.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.A8A8E6B5@smtp.pace.edu>; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:11:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:07:26 -0400 Message-Id: <200106291307.AA116195592@stmail.pace.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Jonathan Slivko" Reply-To: X-Sender: To: Subject: Please disregard. X-Mailer: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org /--------------------------------------------------------------\ Jonathan Slivko -- Black Lotus Comm. -- js43064n@pace.edu www.jmslivko.org - www.blacklotus.net - www.freebsd.org Phone: (212) 663-1109 -- Pager: (917) 388-5304 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! \--------------------------------------------------------------/ __________________________________________________________________ ____ Sent via the Pace University Mail system at stmail.pace.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 10:18:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (webmail.quidel.com [63.125.144.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B627A37B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:18:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:25:15 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54E7@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Please disregard. Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:25:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 11:31:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (webmail.quidel.com [63.125.144.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D30537B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:31:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from et@quidel.com) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:37:48 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54E9@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: BSD companies on Nasdaq? Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:37:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just wondering if there were any? eT -- Etienne de Bruin : eT@quidel.com Quidel Corporation : http://www.quidel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 12:16:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504F637B405 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C78354F; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:16:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Etienne de Bruin Cc: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: BSD companies on Nasdaq? In-Reply-To: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC54E9@mail.quidel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wind River - stock symbol WIND On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Etienne de Bruin wrote: > Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:37:47 -0700 > From: Etienne de Bruin > To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" > Subject: BSD companies on Nasdaq? > > Just wondering if there were any? > eT > -- > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 13:44: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC23B37B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f5TKhvo00755 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:43:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from grog) Delivered-To: grog@lemis.com Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EC3F6ACC1 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:46:52 +0930 (CST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5RNDxN09019 for bugs-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from owner-bugs@bugs.au.freebsd.org) Received: from netau1.alcanet.com.au (ntp.alcanet.com.au [203.62.196.27]) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5RNDte09014 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jeremyp@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au (mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au [139.188.23.1]) by netau1.alcanet.com.au (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11897; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from gsmx07.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.2-32 #37640) with ESMTP id <01K5AMRPDY00VLT5NP@cim.alcatel.com.au>; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:56 +1000 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsmx07.alcatel.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f5RNDsi03806; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:55 +1000 (EST envelope-from jeremyp) Content-return: prohibited Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:13:54 +1000 From: Peter Jeremy Subject: [bugs] The sign of greatness is having your name misspelt To: bugs@bugs.au.freebsd.org Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: bugs@bugs.au.freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010628091354.W95583@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Trivia: I never used to be able to finish anything but now I Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2001-3/0627w.html#item4 : >"Apple Hires Open-Source Leader" >John Hubbard, the main force behind open source stalwart FreeBSD, >has been hired by Apple Computer to work on its OS X operating >system. On Monday, Hubbard announced on a FreeBSD mailing list >that he would now concentrate his efforts on Darwin, the open . . . The source item (http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-6384175.html) gets Jordan's name correct. Peter Post your messages to bugs@bugs.au.freebsd.org, or annoy the mail monster at majordomo@bugs.au.freebsd.org with commands (like 'help') in the message body. Posts to the list might be archived for future web display. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 14:16:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD44637B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by sydney.worldwide.lemis.com (8.11.3/8.9.3) id f5TLFFU00870; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:15:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:15:14 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: "Joseph A. Mallett" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , Wes Peters , Mark Valentine , Adam , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Query: How to tell if Microsoft is using BSD TCP/IP code? Message-ID: <20010629171514.B655@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com> References: <61645.993509224@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jmallett@xMach.org on Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 08:08:27PM -0400 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 25 June 2001 at 20:08:27 -0400, Joseph A. Mallett wrote: >> *Cough*Wollongong*cough*hack*wheeze* (THUD!) > > What are the odds anyone on this group remembers Wollongong? We're not all newcomers. Anyway, I flew right over Wollongong last weekend. > Hell, mention Whitesmiths C Compiler, and people look at you like > christians having hinduism explained to them. Yes, they tried that out at the beginning of the USENIX conference. Few people recognized the names. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 14:44:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C09937B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07562; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:43:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win2k a rewrite or not??? References: <20010629143124.B60314@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jun 2001 23:43:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010629143124.B60314@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > I've heard win2k was a near total re-write of the codebase, and i've heard > it is just a relabeled, reworked NT would-have-been 5.0. Does anybody know > the truth on this? I think it's somewhere in between. As I understand the matter, it's what would have been NT 5.0 (but was renamed to merge the Windows 9x and Windows NT product lines), but it has been extensively overhauled and rewritten. I may be wrong, though. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 14:51:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp010.mail.yahoo.com (smtp010.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F11537B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:51:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fbsdq@yahoo.com) Received: from h2.impactidealsolutions.com (HELO support10) (216.98.200.91) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 21:51:17 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-Id: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:56:16 -0600 X-Priority: 3 From: Peter X-Mailer: Mail Warrior To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Win2k a rewrite or not??? Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Mailer-Version: v3.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org . . . .|I think it's somewhere in between. As I understand the matter, it's . . . .|what would have been NT 5.0 (but was renamed to merge the Windows 9x . . . .|and Windows NT product lines), but it has been extensively overhauled . . . .|and rewritten. I may be wrong, though. Well looking at web logs, win2k is always output as NT 5.0 -- So I guess it's NT 5.0, confisdering MS calls it that. Marketing probably thought this: If I was a CEO, what sounds better NT 5.0 or Windows 2000 ? www.nul.cjb.net www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 15:19:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (erie.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D45237B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.3/8.11.2) id f5TMJLS78968 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:19:21 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is a notice posted to slashdot about a company named "FreeBSD Services Ltd" that is going to be selling a FreeBSD distro on DVD. A whois on "www.freebsd-services.com" yeilds the following Registrant: FreeBSD Services Ltd 11 Lapwing Close Bicester Oxfordshire OX26 6XR UK Domain Name: freebsd-services.com Administrative Contact: Paul Richards (PR00001-TR) Originative Solutions Ltd 11 Lapwing Close Bicester Oxfordshire OX26 6XR UK phone: +44 (0)1869 363950 fax: +44 (0)1869 363951 paul@originative.co.uk Technical Contact: Paul Richards (PR00001-TR) Originative Solutions Ltd 11 Lapwing Close Bicester Oxfordshire OX26 6XR UK phone: +44 (0)1869 363950 fax: +44 (0)1869 363951 paul@originative.co.uk Does anybody know anything about these guys? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 16:14:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D6237B405 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id SAA133006802 Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:14:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA65702; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:16:49 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com>; from jgrosch@mooseriver.com on Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:19:21PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a rumble. Unless the winds have changed, WindRiver or CheapBytes may end up eating them alive. Are DVD-ROM robust enough for everyday use? [RC] On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:19:21PM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > There is a notice posted to slashdot about a company named "FreeBSD > Services Ltd" that is going to be selling a FreeBSD distro on DVD. A whois > on "www.freebsd-services.com" yeilds the following > > Registrant: > FreeBSD Services Ltd > 11 Lapwing Close > Bicester > Oxfordshire > OX26 6XR > UK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 16:15:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5232737B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@FreeBSD.org) Received: from strontium.shef.vinosystems.com ([192.168.91.36] ident=root) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.30 #1) id 15G7Tr-000PVQ-00; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:15:19 +0100 Received: (from ben@localhost) by strontium.shef.vinosystems.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f5TNFI500263; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:15:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from ben@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: strontium.shef.vinosystems.com: ben set sender to ben@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:15:18 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Josef Grosch Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010630001518.J57299@strontium.shef.vinosystems.com> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > There is a notice posted to slashdot about a company named "FreeBSD > Services Ltd" that is going to be selling a FreeBSD distro on DVD. A whois > on "www.freebsd-services.com" yeilds the following ... > Does anybody know anything about these guys? Well, Paul is an ex-core team member and committer, so I'm sure he'd be perfectly happy to answer any questions you have. Why don't you ask him? (paul@FreeBSD.org) IIRC a few other UK committers are involved with FreeBSD Services, I have their business cards somewhere I think.... -- Ben Smithurst / ben@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 16:26:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF7937B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA07901; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:26:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Robert Clark Cc: Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jun 2001 01:26:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: Lines: 15 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable > spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. > > Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. AFAIK, FreeBSD Services Ltd. is owned and staffed exclusively by (British) FreeBSD committers, including FreeBSD project co-founder and ex-core member Paul Richards. The previous version of their website (prior to USENIX) had a full list of founders and staff, and a notice on the bottom that said the Daemon was used with Kirk's permission. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 20:11:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DA737B412 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b109.otenet.gr [195.167.121.237]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5U3BSF14091; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:11:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f5U3BOw20914; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:11:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:11:23 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Don Wilde Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Message-ID: <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com>; from Don@Silver-Lynx.com on Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:06:55PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Trimmed Cc: list. Do we have to cross-post? ] On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:06:55PM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > Perhaps now that they are working with Corel on this, and FreeBSD is > > one of the two supported platforms we can finally get a native port of > > Corel's office suite. (there you go ... a plausible campaign). > > My understanding is that Corel has been running away at hyperspeed from > Linux. Their Corel Draw graphics suite is no longer supported as a > front-line product, for example. Which linux of them all? Oh, oh, you mean Corel Linux? *sigh* Well, it can be kind of daunting and rather tiresome to try to make Corel-Draw work out of the box on an infinite number of distributions. On the other hand, there are loads of programs out there that seem to manage perfectly fine. Corel Draw is a nice program to have. It always seems to do wonders with graphics, once you get the hang of the usual Corel stupidness of implementing a GUI of their own and not relying on the OS/API beneath to provide with the interface style. I even bought a copy of the program when I was running Linux on my home PC. If not for the sake of having a nice vector graphics program around, just for making sure that those few bucks would probably make it apparent that good commercial software *can* and *will* be bought by Open Source users. Then support was dropped. And it seemed to bring back all those dim memories of hating commercial vendors, just because of the ease which they can 'abandon' their users with. You mean *that* Corel? Somehow, I dont seem to be interested in them anymore. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 20:51:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A555F37B403 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keichii@iteration.net) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BD27259229; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:51:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:51:37 -0500 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Robert Clark Cc: Josef Grosch , FreeBSD Crap Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010629225137.D69846@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark scribbled: | | The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable | spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. | | Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. | | So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a | rumble. Please do your homework. Kirk states using the daemon for anything other than obscene purposes is OK. In addition, FreeBSD is not an enforceable trademark. | Unless the winds have changed, WindRiver or CheapBytes may end | up eating them alive. How? | Are DVD-ROM robust enough for everyday use? No, we just watch DVD's and back up onto UFS on DVDROM in FreeBSD with it. Crack smoking and/or crap eating is bad for you. | [RC] | | On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:19:21PM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: | > There is a notice posted to slashdot about a company named "FreeBSD | > Services Ltd" that is going to be selling a FreeBSD distro on DVD. A whois | > on "www.freebsd-services.com" yeilds the following | > | > Registrant: | > FreeBSD Services Ltd | > 11 Lapwing Close | > Bicester | > Oxfordshire | > OX26 6XR -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@iteration.net | keichii@freebsd.org | | http://iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +-----------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 22:35:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA61B37B401 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:35:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1096"@[136.142.22.76]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5CZBZIWJM004B3H@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:35:30 EST Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:37:25 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > [ Trimmed Cc: list. Do we have to cross-post? ] > not for this ... I agree > > Corel Draw is a nice program to have. It always seems to do wonders > with graphics, once you get the hang of the usual Corel stupidness of > implementing a GUI of their own and not relying on the OS/API beneath > to provide with the interface style. I even bought a copy of the > program when I was running Linux on my home PC. If not for the sake > of having a nice vector graphics program around, just for making sure > that those few bucks would probably make it apparent that good > commercial software *can* and *will* be bought by Open Source users. > Even when I am aware that our linux emulator is excellent, I made up my personal excuse and I never buy commercial software for linux: A native port is always better because, as someone that has ported Linux stuff to FreeBSD, in the porting process new bugs are found. Having Linux users run with the first round of bug reports is OK with me too ;). > Then support was dropped. And it seemed to bring back all those dim > memories of hating commercial vendors, just because of the ease which > they can 'abandon' their users with. > Support? curious... MS office has always had bugs and I've never known anyone that calls MS asking for support (I bet it does happen though). Where I worked in a previous life we also paid this high support fees to IBM. When we stopped paying no one noticed the difference. > You mean *that* Corel? > Somehow, I dont seem to be interested in them anymore. > I admit it blatantly... I didn't buy Applixware for FreeBSD because I heard it was not very good, and I'm hoping a native open office will appear someday. Wordperfect is a classic though... I would buy a FreeBSD native port, even considering the Linux one is available online. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 29 23:15: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 959E237B407 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 6101 invoked by uid 100); 30 Jun 2001 06:15:04 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:15:04 -0500 To: Pedro F Giffuni Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F Giffuni types: > Even when I am aware that our linux emulator is excellent, I made up my > personal excuse and I never buy commercial software for linux: A native > port is always better because, as someone that has ported Linux stuff to > FreeBSD, in the porting process new bugs are found. Having Linux users > run with the first round of bug reports is OK with me too ;). I'm not quite that strict about things - FreeBSD native is a feature I look for, but don't require. If there is a large margin between Linux commercial software and the FreeBSD native competition, I'd buy the Linux binary. If there are no non-required features missing and the two are otherwise close, I'll buy the FreeBSD version. Which is why I would have been willing to buy Frame for Linux if Adobe would sell it to me, but wound up buying Applixware Office for FreeBSD when Adobe decided not they wouldn't do that. > > Then support was dropped. And it seemed to bring back all those dim > I admit it blatantly... I didn't buy Applixware for FreeBSD because I > heard it was not very good, and I'm hoping a native open office will > appear someday. Wordperfect is a classic though... I would buy a FreeBSD > native port, even considering the Linux one is available online. Applixware 4.4.2 was ... I think annoying is the word. 5.0 is much better. If you do lots of slides for overheads - well, that's the weakest tool in the suite. On the other hand, if you think that, you should check out and then both and . I've been using Applixware 5.0 for work for graduate school for the last two semesters, and have been pleased with the results. You can read my review of it at , and of the word processors I looked at for doing graduate work at . http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 1:34: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63DD37B410 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a155.otenet.gr [212.205.215.155]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f5U8XqF20778; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:33:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.4/8.11.3) id f5U86Op26938; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:06:24 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:06:23 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Pedro F Giffuni Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! Message-ID: <20010630110623.A26839@hades.hell.gr> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu>; from pfg1+@pitt.edu on Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 01:37:25AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 01:37:25AM -0700, Pedro F Giffuni wrote: > Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >> Corel Draw is a nice program to have. [snip] >> I even bought a copy of the program when I was running Linux on my >> home PC. > > Even when I am aware that our linux emulator is excellent, I made up my > personal excuse and I never buy commercial software for linux: A native > port is always better... Well, I was more of a Linux user a the time. The port was native to the OS I was running at home :) >> Then support was dropped. And it seemed to bring back all those dim >> memories of hating commercial vendors, just because of the ease which >> they can 'abandon' their users with. > > Support? curious... MS office has always had bugs and I've never known > anyone that calls MS asking for support (I bet it does happen though). > Where I worked in a previous life we also paid this high support fees to > IBM. When we stopped paying no one noticed the difference. Well, english is not my native language, and it shows :/ By 'support' I meant active development, and technical support. Your experiences with IBM are exactly what I was accustomed to, a few years back; before I discovered Linux, GNU and open source. Then, one day I scratched it all, and thought 'hey, I will try FreeBSD, just for a change'. And that's pretty much it... I never looked back. Documentation, support, and seeing a lively, active group of people behind this, were among the most promiment reasons for this. I always seem to feel warm and fuzzy inside, when I see a bug report closed for FreeBSD. Sometimes it might seem a bit long when this happens, after the bug report is filed. Then, one morning you wake up and receive all those email messages from freebsd-bugs that shows a developer spent the morning, afternoon, or night (whichever was best at the time), and there is this lot of new messages indicating that a dozen or so of bugs is dead: analyzed, fixed, committed, thank you! This feeling, is somewhat rare (if in fact it exists at all), with most commercial products I've worked so far. Perhaps, this is one of those bad luck things. Then again, perhaps not :) -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 6: 8: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9E337B407 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f5UD7uZ14279 ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:07:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA26794 ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:09:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:09:04 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Mike Meyer Cc: Pedro F Giffuni , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) Message-ID: <20010630150904.G17623@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 01:15:04AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The roadmap for StarOffice/OpenOffice looks quite ambitious. I'd be particularly interested in their promised MathML support. I'd be even happier if their XML file format can be easily converted to LaTeX.... Sun claims to be on track for StarOffice 6.0 later this year. http://www.openoffice.org/white_papers/010615OOoRoadmap.pdf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 6:31:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC77337B443 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 06:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f5UDUaa16124; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:30:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:30:29 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !! References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > [ Trimmed Cc: list. Do we have to cross-post? ] > I'm not on -chat, sorry. > On Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:06:55PM -0600, Don Wilde wrote: > > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > > Perhaps now that they are working with Corel on this, and FreeBSD is > > > one of the two supported platforms we can finally get a native port of > > > Corel's office suite. (there you go ... a plausible campaign). > > > > My understanding is that Corel has been running away at hyperspeed from > > Linux. Their Corel Draw graphics suite is no longer supported as a > > front-line product, for example. > > Which linux of them all? > > Oh, oh, you mean Corel Linux? *sigh* > > > > Well, it can be kind of daunting and rather tiresome to try to make > Corel-Draw work out of the box on an infinite number of distributions. > On the other hand, there are loads of programs out there that seem to > manage perfectly fine. > > Corel Draw is a nice program to have. It always seems to do wonders > with graphics, once you get the hang of the usual Corel stupidness of > implementing a GUI of their own and not relying on the OS/API beneath > to provide with the interface style. I even bought a copy of the > program when I was running Linux on my home PC. If not for the sake > of having a nice vector graphics program around, just for making sure > that those few bucks would probably make it apparent that good > commercial software *can* and *will* be bought by Open Source users. > That was my intention, too. > Then support was dropped. And it seemed to bring back all those dim > memories of hating commercial vendors, just because of the ease which > they can 'abandon' their users with. > Believe me, I _hated_ buying a copy for each of 3 Doze boxen. I use Corel a LOT because it's a really easy tool for making concept graphics. We don't have its equivalent. > You mean *that* Corel? > Somehow, I dont seem to be interested in them anymore. > That was my original point, that Linux is losing favor with commercial vendors. The reality is that the Linux/BSD/BEos/XXX market IS tiny except for those outside the "West", and they don't pay cash. It's too easy for a Lexmark (for example) to have Samsung build a piece of utter garbage and call it a printer, package it with an obnoxious windows cycle-stealer of a GUI control suite, and make tons of money from it. American companies (the rich ones, anyway) just don't care about fairness. Apple is doing Mac OS X for their own profitable purposes, not because they want to be different. However, I do see this as a good thing because it will allow us a comfortable little niche where we will be able to pluck from their innovations (especially if M$ does continue this 'shared source' model). We will have to figure out how to do an Aqua compatibility mode pretty soon, because that's where the interesting OS X programs are going to fly. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 7:34:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (tserver.conference.usenix.org [199.103.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5B537BD0F for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f5UDBqP01857; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 14:11:52 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 14:11:51 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Robert Clark Cc: Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010630141151.A1815@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="6TrnltStXW4iwmi0" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net>; from res03db2@gte.net on Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ Disclaimer: I was involved in the start up of FreeBSD Services Ltd about a year ago. Then BSDi happened and I pulled back. I do not have any financial interest in FreeBSD Services Ltd, but the people running it are friends. ] On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark wrote: > The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable > spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. Which was done, and given. > Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. Which was done, and given. FSL is run by Paul Richards, who is also paul@freebsd.org. Paul is one of the people from "the beginning" of FreeBSD, back in the 386BSD days, and he continues to commit code. The other director is Brian Somers. That's the same Brian Somers as brian@freebsd.org, responsible for the (re)write of userland PPP in FreeBSD, and the continued implementation of new features in FreeBSD (and OpenBSD's) PPP. > So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a > rumble. Get a life. More organisations providing support and distribution of FreeBSD is a good thing. Just ask *anyone* in Europe who has had to wait months for their CD subscription to arrive, and then paid heavy import tax when it does. =20 > Are DVD-ROM robust enough for everyday use? Yes. FWIW, I helped someone at Usenix remove Linux from their Compaq laptop and install FreeBSD from the DVD which I had to hand (which, incidentally, are bootable). N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjs90BMACgkQk6gHZCw343WRLwCfQeEfA/nazp1W3ySIS+DV+NS7 HKYAnRT+zlEMn9u/iJdkVNNrVbH57LWU =VNzQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --6TrnltStXW4iwmi0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 7:52:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.allyster.com (fw.allyster.com [194.202.29.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9529137B432 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:52:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jslivko@jslivko.org) Received: (qmail 3595 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2001 17:07:25 -0000 Received: from mail.allyster.com (jslivko@194.202.29.35) by mail.allyster.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 17:07:25 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:07:25 +0100 (BST) From: "Jonathan M. Slivko" X-Sender: jslivko@localhost.localdomain To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Testing -- don't mind this. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just testing to see if my spam filters are working correctly with the FreeBSD lists. Sorry for the interruption. +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jonathan Slivko -- Black Lotus Comm. -- jslivko@jslivko.org | | www.jslivko.org - www.blacklotus.net - www.freebsd.org | | Phone: (212) 663-1109 -- Pager: (917) 388-5304 | | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 7:55:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.allyster.com (fw.allyster.com [194.202.29.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5040537B6A1 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 07:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jslivko@jslivko.org) Received: (qmail 3706 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2001 17:11:06 -0000 Received: from mail.allyster.com (jslivko@194.202.29.35) by mail.allyster.com with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 17:11:06 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:11:05 +0100 (BST) From: "Jonathan M. Slivko" X-Sender: jslivko@localhost.localdomain To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Testing, last time. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jonathan Slivko -- Black Lotus Comm. -- jslivko@jslivko.org | | www.jslivko.org - www.blacklotus.net - www.freebsd.org | | Phone: (212) 663-1109 -- Pager: (917) 388-5304 | | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 8:43:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3BF37B80E for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1134"@[136.142.89.102]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5DKGC1RV0004E2E@mb2i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:39:52 EST Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:50:27 -0400 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) To: Mike Meyer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> Organization: University of Pittsburgh MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en,pdf,es-CO References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > > I've been using Applixware 5.0 for work for graduate school for the > last two semesters, and have been pleased with the results. You can > read my review of it at http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/reviews/AO/ >, and of the word > processors I looked at for doing graduate work at http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/reviews/FreeBSD-WP.html >. > Cool, I've been in grad school too, and I really wanted to use FreeBSD in my office but for some strange reason FreeBSD broke the network several times. I thought it was a configuration problem but when I set up an Alpha box I was able to bring the network down again (Tru64 reported excessive network activity) and this time they fixed the problem well. Anyway, one of the things that is really important is getting good quality fonts, that's the reason I ported type1inst and several ps type1 fonts. I bought a pretty good and cheap CD with lot's of postscript fonts. Hmm...I just checked the FreeBSD Mall and I don't find Applixware as a standalone product anymore ... the BSD Desktop Edition looks like a good buy though. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 11:38:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715EF37BAF5; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id MAA31785976 Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:44:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA69297; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:46:51 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Nik Clayton Cc: Robert Clark , Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010630104651.A69279@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> <20010630141151.A1815@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010630141151.A1815@canyon.nothing-going-on.org>; from nik@freebsd.org on Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 02:11:51PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 02:11:51PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > [ Disclaimer: I was involved in the start up of FreeBSD Services Ltd > about a year ago. Then BSDi happened and I pulled back. I do not > have any financial interest in FreeBSD Services Ltd, but the people > running it are friends. ] > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark wrote: > > The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable > > spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. > > Which was done, and given. Great. > > > Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. > > Which was done, and given. Great. > > FSL is run by Paul Richards, who is also paul@freebsd.org. Paul is > one of the people from "the beginning" of FreeBSD, back in the 386BSD > days, and he continues to commit code. > > The other director is Brian Somers. That's the same Brian Somers as > brian@freebsd.org, responsible for the (re)write of userland PPP in > FreeBSD, and the continued implementation of new features in FreeBSD > (and OpenBSD's) PPP. > > > So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a > > rumble. > > Get a life. More organisations providing support and distribution of > FreeBSD is a good thing. Just ask *anyone* in Europe who has had to > wait months for their CD subscription to arrive, and then paid heavy > import tax when it does. I'm glad to hear they are doing the right thing. It will be nice for people in Europe. I just wonder what is going to happen to WC if everyone starts selling their own version of FreeBSD. > > > Are DVD-ROM robust enough for everyday use? > > Yes. FWIW, I helped someone at Usenix remove Linux from their Compaq > laptop and install FreeBSD from the DVD which I had to hand (which, > incidentally, are bootable). I was trying to ask if DVD-ROM hold up well with less than careful handling. I don't own any yet, so I don't know how well they handle the occasional slip. CD-ROM take an incredible (to me) amount of abuse, and are still readable. (No, I am not anti-DVD, just curious.) Thanks for the info Nik. > > N > -- > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ > FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ > > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 11:38:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop1pub.verizon.net (smtppop1pub.gte.net [206.46.170.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8283C37B43B for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop1pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id NAA131662675 Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:05:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA69330; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:07:17 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Robert Clark , Josef Grosch , FreeBSD Crap Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd Message-ID: <20010630110717.B69279@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> <20010629225137.D69846@peorth.iteration.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20010629225137.D69846@peorth.iteration.net>; from keichii@iteration.net on Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:51:37PM -0500, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:16:49PM -0700, Robert Clark scribbled: > | > | The have a picture of chuck holding a crescent wrench (adjustable > | spanner) too. Using that graphic would require asking permission. > | > | Using the name "FreeBSD" would require getting permission too. > | > | So either they've done their homework, or they're looking for a > | rumble. > > Please do your homework. Kirk states using the daemon for anything > other than obscene purposes is OK. In addition, FreeBSD is not > an enforceable trademark. Wow, I didn't know that. > > | Unless the winds have changed, WindRiver or CheapBytes may end > | up eating them alive. > > How? Based on Nik's email, there is apparently some unmet demand in Europe, so FSL should do well. > > | Are DVD-ROM robust enough for everyday use? > > No, we just watch DVD's and back up onto UFS on DVDROM in FreeBSD with it. How do you back up to DVD-ROM? Isn't that a read only format? > > Crack smoking and/or crap eating is bad for you. > I wouldn't know about that, I'll have to take your word for it. > > | [RC] > | > | On Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:19:21PM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > | > There is a notice posted to slashdot about a company named "FreeBSD > | > Services Ltd" that is going to be selling a FreeBSD distro on DVD. A whois > | > on "www.freebsd-services.com" yeilds the following To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 13:57:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CA2137B401 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:57:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 30655 invoked by uid 100); 30 Jun 2001 20:57:30 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15166.15674.159552.847499@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:57:30 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Mike Meyer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > I've been using Applixware 5.0 for work for graduate school for the > > last two semesters, and have been pleased with the results. You can > > read my review of it at > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/reviews/AO/ >, and of the word > > processors I looked at for doing graduate work at > http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/reviews/FreeBSD-WP.html >. > Anyway, one of the things that is really important is getting good > quality fonts, that's the reason I ported type1inst and several ps > type1 fonts. I bought a pretty good and cheap CD with lot's of > postscript fonts. That's also why I ported the t1utils. I bought one of the "good and cheap CDs", then went out and bought a quality font collection from Adobe. I use both regularly with Applixware, but that's apparently one of the things that was improved going from 4.4.2 to 5.0: The support for PS fonts was brought up to par with that for TrueType fonts. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 14:44:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E95D37B405 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 14:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from Atlanta.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010630214425.HSUE18266.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@Atlanta.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 14:44:25 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:42:29 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <15166.15674.159552.847499@guru.mired.org> References: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do either of you guys have any documentation you can point me at for how to use these marvelous-sounding utilities? This is one of my sore points for using X Windows System applications more frequently. Do the utils you've ported work generally for all X apps or just Applixware? --Chip Morton At 04:57 PM 6/30/2001, Mike wrote: >Pedro F. Giffuni types: > > Anyway, one of the things that is really important is getting good > > quality fonts, that's the reason I ported type1inst and several ps > > type1 fonts. I bought a pretty good and cheap CD with lot's of > > postscript fonts. > >That's also why I ported the t1utils. I bought one of the "good and >cheap CDs", then went out and bought a quality font collection from >Adobe. I use both regularly with Applixware, but that's apparently one >of the things that was improved going from 4.4.2 to 5.0: The support >for PS fonts was brought up to par with that for TrueType fonts. > > -- >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 15: 5: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED6BD37B406 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78022 invoked by uid 100); 30 Jun 2001 22:04:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15166.19723.198825.677156@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:04:59 -0500 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> References: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information types: > Do either of you guys have any documentation you can point me at for how to > use these marvelous-sounding utilities? This is one of my sore points for > using X Windows System applications more frequently. Do the utils you've > ported work generally for all X apps or just Applixware? t1utils is neither an X application nor an Applixware tool, it's a collection of tools for translating postscript fonts between various formats, including one that can be hand edited. A list of what each does is in ports/print/t1utils/pkg-descr, and there are man pages for each utility available in the package. p5-type1inst - I assume that's the one Pedro ported, as the maintainer is one giffunip@asme.org - is also described in it's pkg-descr file; it's a perl script that builds the files needed to use PS fonts in X11 and ghostscript. At 04:57 PM 6/30/2001, Mike wrote: > >Pedro F. Giffuni types: > > > Anyway, one of the things that is really important is getting good > > > quality fonts, that's the reason I ported type1inst and several ps > > > type1 fonts. I bought a pretty good and cheap CD with lot's of > > > postscript fonts. > > > >That's also why I ported the t1utils. I bought one of the "good and > >cheap CDs", then went out and bought a quality font collection from > >Adobe. I use both regularly with Applixware, but that's apparently one > >of the things that was improved going from 4.4.2 to 5.0: The support > >for PS fonts was brought up to par with that for TrueType fonts. > > > > >-- > >Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > >Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 15:27: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFF4D37B403 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 78818 invoked by uid 100); 30 Jun 2001 22:27:02 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15166.21045.915907.930733@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:27:01 -0500 To: Don Wilde Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don Wilde types: > > You mean *that* Corel? > > Somehow, I dont seem to be interested in them anymore. > That was my original point, that Linux is losing favor with commercial > vendors. Adobe certainly agreed. They made the effort to create a Linux port of Frame, put it through beta, then didn't sell it. > The reality is that the Linux/BSD/BEos/XXX market IS tiny > except for those outside the "West", and they don't pay cash. "Tiny" doesn't mean "worthless". Adobe is still developing and maintaining Frame for Solaris, HP-UX and AIX, at least on non-intel hardware. The the Windows and MacIntosh versions may be required to make the Unix version pay for itself. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 16: 1: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93A937B401 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1058"@[136.142.20.160]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5DZU8RPP2002OVH@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:01:01 EST Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:02:57 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) To: Mike Meyer Cc: Technical Information , FreeBSD Chat Message-id: <3B3E84D1.5F30451C@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> <15166.19723.198825.677156@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > > p5-type1inst - I assume that's the one Pedro ported, as the maintainer > is one giffunip@asme.org - is also described in it's pkg-descr file; > it's a perl script that builds the files needed to use PS fonts in X11 > and ghostscript. > Oh sh*t! I still maintain that?? ;). Yes it does that. It works very well if you have postscript fonts and don't want to find out how to generate description files for XFree86. I remember trying the truetype X11 server, but it was very touchy about the case in which the windoze partition wrote the fonts so I ended up uninstalling it. The CD I bought is called 2000 Fantastic Fonts by Expert Software. Very cheap if you find can still find it somewhere: they were classified as shareware in CompUSA. The OS/2 postscript fonts will also work. I looked for the adobe fonts but they were very expensive and don't include the basic, more common ones (which are on OS/2). Our distribution has some slightly broken things; we should be using type1inst to support all the postscript fonts in ports but we don't do this with the ghostscript type1 fonts. Most of the ports do use type1inst but the XF86Conf file has to be edited manually to support them. We also don't have a standard place to put the afm files but that is of little importance. All in all it is possible to get a very nice looking XWindows system. I recall there is a document about this in our documentation project. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 16:34:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81D4737B401 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 80444 invoked by uid 100); 30 Jun 2001 23:34:26 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15166.25090.679153.10139@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:34:26 -0500 To: Pedro F Giffuni Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3E84D1.5F30451C@pitt.edu> References: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> <15166.19723.198825.677156@guru.mired.org> <3B3E84D1.5F30451C@pitt.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F Giffuni types: > The CD I bought is called 2000 Fantastic Fonts by Expert Software. Very > cheap if you find can still find it somewhere: they were classified as > shareware in CompUSA. The OS/2 postscript fonts will also work. I looked > for the adobe fonts but they were very expensive and don't include the > basic, more common ones (which are on OS/2). Ah, different goals. I didn't want a large collection of common fonts for general use. I wanted a couple of high-quality font that included a proper small caps font, non-lining figures, and other such goodies. > All in all it is possible to get a very nice looking XWindows system. I > recall there is a document about this in our documentation project. There's one I used that discusses setting up various font types for use with X and ghostscript. Is that what you were referring to? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 16:43:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45CC37B40A; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 16:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA13920; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 01:43:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Robert Clark Cc: Nik Clayton , Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Services Ltd References: <20010629151921.A78954@mooseriver.com> <20010629161649.A65663@darkstar.gte.net> <20010630141151.A1815@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <20010630104651.A69279@darkstar.gte.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Jul 2001 01:43:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20010630104651.A69279@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark writes: > I'm glad to hear they are doing the right thing. It will be nice for > people in Europe. I just wonder what is going to happen to WC if > everyone starts selling their own version of FreeBSD. You mean WindRiver, and the answer's "absolutely nothing". Do you really think WindRiver depends on sales of FreeBSD CDs to survive? Actually, anything that increases FreeBSD's user base and customer awareness should benefit WindRiver in the long run. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 17: 5:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75D7737B403 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f6105Va17665; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:05:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B3E6941.C822FFB3@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:05:21 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> <15166.21045.915907.930733@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > Don Wilde types: > > The reality is that the Linux/BSD/BEos/XXX market IS tiny > > except for those outside the "West", and they don't pay cash. > > "Tiny" doesn't mean "worthless". Adobe is still developing and > maintaining Frame for Solaris, HP-UX and AIX, at least on non-intel > hardware. The the Windows and MacIntosh versions may be required to > make the Unix version pay for itself. > Granted, but Solaris and HP-UX and AIX users are used to paying for s/w, and have been brainwashed into believing that payware is going to be better than freeware. As have their bosses who approve the invoices. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 17:53:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu (mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu [136.142.186.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD2E37B401 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfg1+@pitt.edu) Received: from pitt.edu ("port 1066"@[136.142.20.139]) by pitt.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #41462) with ESMTP id <01K5E3RPNXDA002IB0@mb1i0.ns.pitt.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:53:30 EST Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:55:27 -0700 From: Pedro F Giffuni Subject: Re: WP's for FreeBSD (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) To: Mike Meyer Cc: FreeBSD Chat Message-id: <3B3E9F2F.CA775C3B@pitt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3B3DF543.352AB50A@pitt.edu> <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3D8FC5.C5366C3B@pitt.edu> <15165.28264.754600.976397@guru.mired.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010630173948.01807f38@threespace.com> <15166.19723.198825.677156@guru.mired.org> <3B3E84D1.5F30451C@pitt.edu> <15166.25090.679153.10139@guru.mired.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > ... On the subject of different objectives, the base X11 fonts are so different (and low quality) compared to the Windoze stuff when I first saw X on a PC unix I used to think there was some magical secret between MS, Borland, and the display manufacturers. Those days one of my friends (a CS student) was also having problems realizing what I meant by "recompiling the kernel". One of the things we owe to the free software movement was this enlightening process: no one would ever imagine to know what a kernel developer really was in those days. > > There's one I used that discusses setting up various font types for > use with X and ghostscript. Is that what you were referring to? > It's been quite a time but it would seem it was this: http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/fonts/article.html Something I found elsewhere, and very useful, is how to convert microsoft older windows fonts to something usable with X: there is a utility in wine distribution to do that. doscmd also wants some fonts that are not carried by the normal FreeBSD distribution; I forgot where to hunt those. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 18: 0:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-27-141-144.mmcable.com [24.27.141.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0920E37B403 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:00:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mwm@mired.org) Received: (qmail 82325 invoked by uid 100); 1 Jul 2001 01:00:06 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15166.30230.686762.281628@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:00:06 -0500 To: Don Wilde Cc: Mike Meyer , Giorgos Keramidas , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux markets (Was: Microsoft giving back to FreeBSD !!) In-Reply-To: <3B3E6941.C822FFB3@Silver-Lynx.com> References: <3B3A2E2F.A74DDCC8@pitt.edu> <3B3A2ECF.6FECA0E3@Silver-Lynx.com> <20010630061123.E20203@hades.hell.gr> <3B3DD475.B44E9882@Silver-Lynx.com> <15166.21045.915907.930733@guru.mired.org> <3B3E6941.C822FFB3@Silver-Lynx.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don Wilde types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > Don Wilde types: > > > The reality is that the Linux/BSD/BEos/XXX market IS tiny > > > except for those outside the "West", and they don't pay cash. > > "Tiny" doesn't mean "worthless". Adobe is still developing and > > maintaining Frame for Solaris, HP-UX and AIX, at least on non-intel > > hardware. The the Windows and MacIntosh versions may be required to > > make the Unix version pay for itself. > Granted, but Solaris and HP-UX and AIX users are used to paying for s/w, > and have been brainwashed into believing that payware is going to be > better than freeware. As have their bosses who approve the invoices. Well, used to and willing to pay for software, yes. Brainwashed about payware? Maybe some of them, but certainly not all. Apache gets used on a lot of web servers running those OS's. I was pretty sure the Linux port of Frame was dead from the beginning. It isn't going to create any new commercial users, as those people will already have platforms it runs on. So the target market is the home user - and it's an expensive bit of software for the home, even at the Windows price point. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 30 23:53:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28F737B401 for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2001 23:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACF134C4 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2001 02:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 02:53:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Subject: FreeBSD Mall now BSDCentral Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Subject says it all. It appears that WindRiver is making over the Mall and is using BSDCentral to fulfill basic needs until the renovation is complete. Just when I wanted to order another FreeBSD polo... :-( Also, take a look at what's happened to the Walnut Creek web page (http://www.wccdrom.com/). Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on? First the Slackware merchandise disappeared, then the 4.3 difficulties and now BSD Central is selling a subset of the Mall merchandise? I don't mind change, but when things disappear without an explanation... Eric Wayte University DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message