From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 3:55:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9B237B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 03:55:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p47-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.112]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id UAA10807; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:55:03 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3A9A436B.821D0B01@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:52:11 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Jack Rusher , Terry Lambert , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102072323.QAA27692@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I have been wondering about this legal issue lately. What is the law > > with regards to implementing XFS as a KLM for FreeBSD & shipping the > > source in contrib? It won't help people who are trying to make > > commercial products with embedded FreeBSD, but it might be useful for > > sysadmins. > > You won't be able to boot from it, unless you compile your own > kernel. This was pretty much the Soft Updates status, until > recently. I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). Anyway, any serious user of FreeBSD recompiles the kernel to fine tune it. It is not a significant restriction. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@kzinti.bsdconspiracy.net Acabou o hipismo-arte. Mas a desculpa brasileira mais ouvida em Sydney e' que nao tem mais cavalo bobo por ai'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 5:33: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EDA37B503; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA26720; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:27:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAf5aii0; Mon Feb 26 06:27:26 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16827; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:32:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:32:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A9A436B.821D0B01@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Feb 26, 2001 08:52:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I have been wondering about this legal issue lately. What is the law > > > with regards to implementing XFS as a KLM for FreeBSD & shipping the > > > source in contrib? It won't help people who are trying to make > > > commercial products with embedded FreeBSD, but it might be useful for > > > sysadmins. > > > > You won't be able to boot from it, unless you compile your own > > kernel. This was pretty much the Soft Updates status, until > > recently. > > I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. > Anyway, any serious user of FreeBSD recompiles the kernel to fine tune > it. It is not a significant restriction. It makes initial installation a pain; I guess every serious user of FreeBSD will have more than one machine, and do their builds on one (FFS) and installs on the other(s) (XFS)? This much pain would make it unlikely to be used, except for people needing to mount their Linux or SGI disks, or in very big installations. I see the value of XFS as providing the same FS for various operating systems, and thereby setting a standard. That value is significantly diminished, if FreeBSD has pain that other systems don't. Frankly, there's nothing that a GPL license prevents, in terms of preventing a company from productizing the XFS alone. I could easily port it to FreeBSD, SVR4, Solaris, SunOS, AIX, AmigaDOS, Windows, etc. -- basically, anywhere I've written a file system before. The GPL doesn't prevent sales from happening in these markets, because, unlike Linux and FreeBSD, having or not having the source code is not so much a barrier as needing the tools and skills to build something out of it which will work. In Linux and FreeBSD, almost every user is a code monkey; in a commercial OS, until recently, the source code was unknown and unknowable, and even when it's available for a licensing fee (e.g. Solaris), there really hasn't been a community grown up around it to hack it. I don't understand why SGI doesn't just license the code under a license that restricts its use to a named set of operating systems, and their derivatives. As it is now, the code is protected from the richest supply of unpaid FS hackers that are available, and _not_ protected from being productized commercially, and the results sold in competition with SGI. Kind of ironic: even the LGPL would let it be usable to FreeBSD (ar + ranlib + ability to relink). Note that IBM's release of the OS/2 JFS under the GPL throws it in the same position (replace "AIX" in the second paragraph up from this one with "IRIX"). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 5:35:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7753837B401; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA06380; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:29:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA9Naitm; Mon Feb 26 06:28:59 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA16904; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:35:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102261335.GAA16904@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:35:06 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A9A436B.821D0B01@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Feb 26, 2001 08:52:11 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PS: > Anyway, any serious user of FreeBSD recompiles the kernel to fine tune > it. It is not a significant restriction. Yet we don't see the serious FS hackers leaping at doing a port of the code, when their work will end up released under the GPL, and not able to be shipped linked into a FreeBSD kernel shipped on a CDROM, or sold on an Internet appliance, set top box, embedded system, etc., due to license conflict. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 7:35:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1510137B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:35:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 3D5777567; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6781D89; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:35:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:35:52 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: :I see the value of XFS as providing the same FS for various :operating systems, and thereby setting a standard. That value :is significantly diminished, if FreeBSD has pain that other :systems don't. As someone who spends the majority of his time on SGI hardware, let's not forget that XFS is just plain -fast- as well as reliable and (after XFS Rollup #6 anyway) stable. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 9:56:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from bilver.wjv.com (dhcp-1-29.n01.orldfl01.us.ra.verio.net [157.238.210.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA0637B65D for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:56:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@bilver.wjv.com) Received: (from bill@localhost) by bilver.wjv.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA81112 for freebsd-fs@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:56:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bill) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:56:08 -0500 From: Bill Vermillion To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010226125607.C80476@wjv.com> Reply-To: bv@bilver.wjv.com References: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:35:52AM -0800 Organization: W.J.Vermillion / Orlando - Winter Park Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 07:35:52AM -0800, Jamie Bowden thus spoke: > On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > :I see the value of XFS as providing the same FS for various > :operating systems, and thereby setting a standard. That value > :is significantly diminished, if FreeBSD has pain that other > :systems don't. > As someone who spends the majority of his time on SGI hardware, > let's not forget that XFS is just plain -fast- as well as reliable > and (after XFS Rollup #6 anyway) stable. Well I've spent 'some' time on SGI - and it's been a couple of years now - but XFS is darned good. The ONLY problem I ever had was a bad spot on an HD when someone bumped a 6 foot tall rack to make it rock a bit. It gave me an error on one file, so I just moved that directory to another name, moved all the files from there to a newnly named one, and excluded that from backup. Really rugged file system. Later on I was able to use the 'fx' tool to map out those tracks on the HD. The track was hurt bad enough that the automatic remap utility didn't work. I'd really like to see XFS on FreeBSD. The slowdowns when a directroy accidentally get's overlarge will be a thing of the past. -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 11:20:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1B637B4EC; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:20:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p13-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.14]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id EAA00461; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 04:20:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3A9AABC7.60BA75EB@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 04:17:27 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. It is so very fortunate, then, that neither loader nor the kld need be in the root filesystem, eh? :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@kzinti.bsdconspiracy.net Acabou o hipismo-arte. Mas a desculpa brasileira mais ouvida em Sydney e' que nao tem mais cavalo bobo por ai'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 11:52:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A3C37B401; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.126] ([194.78.241.126]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.10) with ESMTP id f1QJptq28242; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:51:55 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:41:47 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:32 PM +0000 2/26/01, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. I'm confused -- why do you make this statement? Is it because of the GPL license that the XFS code is released under? If so, then would something like the LGPL change that issue? -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 19:43:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A3F37B684; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:43:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA07434; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:37:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAs7aivo; Mon Feb 26 20:37:09 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10733; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:42:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102270342.UAA10733@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:42:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3A9AABC7.60BA75EB@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Feb 27, 2001 04:17:27 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. > > It is so very fortunate, then, that neither loader nor the kld need be > in the root filesystem, eh? :-) Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. I would prefer to have my boot loader, kernel, and modules live on the safest FS available to me. If that's not XFS, why use it? If it is XFS, then why use something else, except for the license making me? Resizing the boot partition to add more modules and/or kernel generations at a later date would be right out, after laying everything out. I'm not saying that that arrangement can't be made to work from an installation perspective, just that it's a ridiculous number of hoops to force someone through on the pretense of a free license. I don't see the people leaping forward to volunteer their effort under those terms. I've stated my terms. I've made suggestions on how they can protect what they want to protect, and pointed out that they don't have that level of protection now. I also see the GFS people bending over backward to accomodate us, and don't see significant benefit to XFS compared to GFS, and particularly with regard to the XFS code for Linux being incapable of storage area clustering, due to some code that SGI only has on their boxes. I've already thrown 20k of patches at the GFS people as a show of good faith; if they follow through, I fully expect that a port can happen very quickly. I might even do a Windows port, just to be annoying, since I fully understand the IFSMgr code, and have the necessary tools and SDK to do the work. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 19:47:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6516937B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:47:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA08620; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:41:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAegaWWq; Mon Feb 26 20:41:15 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10815; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:46:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102270346.UAA10815@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: brad.knowles@skynet.be (Brad Knowles) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:46:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 26, 2001 08:41:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. > > I'm confused -- why do you make this statement? Is it because of > the GPL license that the XFS code is released under? If so, then > would something like the LGPL change that issue? Because you can't ditribute a FreeBSD kernel with GPL'ed code linked into it legally, due to the GPL disallowing distribution of the code with non-GPL'ed code. Yes, changing the license to the LGPL would fix the problem. Neither the LGPL nor the GPL really address the concerns about productization that are attributed to SGI, however; the LGPL much less so. My understanding is that they are worried about third party competition cannibalizing their market using their own code to do it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 19:52:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2259437B401; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:52:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17720; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:56 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200102270342.UAA10733@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:56 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, (Zhiui Zhang) , (Sam Leffler) , (Jack Rusher) , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Daniel C. Sobral) Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Feb-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. And, err, how hard is it to add support to the loader for this? It's read only which makes it simpler, and the code is well structured.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 20: 7:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341E937B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:07:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA01053; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:03:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA7VaO.b; Mon Feb 26 21:03:53 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11556; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:06:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102270406.VAA11556@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 04:06:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu ((Zhiui Zhang)), sam@errno.com ((Sam Leffler)), jar@integratus.com ((Jack Rusher)), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcs@newsguy.com ((Daniel C. Sobral)) In-Reply-To: from "Daniel O'Connor" at Feb 27, 2001 02:21:56 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. > > And, err, how hard is it to add support to the loader for this? > > It's read only which makes it simpler, and the code is well structured.. Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 20:13:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C4A537B401; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f1R4BW838396; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:11:32 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:11:32 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, "(Zhiui Zhang)" , "(Sam Leffler)" , "(Jack Rusher)" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "(Daniel C. Sobral)" Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010226221132.C20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <200102270406.VAA11556@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200102270406.VAA11556@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:06:59AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > > > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. > > > > And, err, how hard is it to add support to the loader for this? > > > > It's read only which makes it simpler, and the code is well structured.. > > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. Or if you simply _WRITE_ some new code to read the XFS filesystem. Gee, if our loader groks ext2fs, it must be GPL'd, right? -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 20:13:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C3CF37B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18144; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:43:02 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200102270406.VAA11556@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:43:02 +1030 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Cc: ((Daniel C. Sobral)) , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ((Jack Rusher)) , ((Sam Leffler)) , ((Zhiui Zhang)) , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27-Feb-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > > It's read only which makes it simpler, and the code is well structured.. > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. Re-write the code in question.. Not the nicest solution though. Or even an option to link to it that isn't defined by default. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 20:17: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C1837B491; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:17:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04362; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:16:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010226211548.00bd65d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:16:42 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> References: <3A9A436B.821D0B01@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:32 AM 2/26/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: >Note that IBM's release of the OS/2 JFS under the GPL throws >it in the same position (replace "AIX" in the second paragraph >up from this one with "IRIX"). It was tragic that this happened. IBM, of all companies, should have known better than to stamp the GPL on its code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Feb 26 22:20:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE5D037B67D; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:20:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA05756; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:15:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAw0aykl; Mon Feb 26 23:15:27 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA13824; Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:20:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102270620.XAA13824@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:20:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu ("(Zhiui Zhang)"), sam@errno.com ("(Sam Leffler)"), jar@integratus.com ("(Jack Rusher)"), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcs@newsguy.com ("(Daniel C. Sobral)") In-Reply-To: <20010226221132.C20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Feb 26, 2001 10:11:32 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. > > Or if you simply _WRITE_ some new code to read the XFS filesystem. > Gee, if our loader groks ext2fs, it must be GPL'd, right? "Donations of code welcome". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 0:32:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F005C37B71A; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:32:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p22-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [211.0.245.87]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN/) with ESMTP id RAA29708; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:32:34 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3A9B6576.5C8572C8@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:29:42 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102261332.GAA16827@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 1:32 PM +0000 2/26/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >> I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. > > I'm confused -- why do you make this statement? Is it because of > the GPL license that the XFS code is released under? If so, then > would something like the LGPL change that issue? Loader(8) is a static binary. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org capo@kzinti.bsdconspiracy.net Acabou o hipismo-arte. Mas a desculpa brasileira mais ouvida em Sydney e' que nao tem mais cavalo bobo por ai'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 1:46:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6302437B718; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 01:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from [62.49.251.130] (helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14Xghr-000FD4-0A; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:07 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1R9k7129912; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:07 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: <200102270342.UAA10733@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I'm not sure that is true. You can always load a kld from loader(8). > > > > > > Not from an XFS root filesystem, you can't. > > > > It is so very fortunate, then, that neither loader nor the kld need be > > in the root filesystem, eh? :-) > > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. > > I would prefer to have my boot loader, kernel, and modules live > on the safest FS available to me. If that's not XFS, why use > it? If it is XFS, then why use something else, except for the > license making me? Terry, if it really matters that XFS root filesystems are bootable, then someone will write an XFS reader module for libstand. Personally, I don't think it will ever matter that much. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 1:46:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CABC37B719; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 01:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from [62.49.251.130] (helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 14XgiG-000FHQ-0A; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:32 +0000 Received: from salmon.nlsystems.com (salmon [10.0.0.3]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1R9kU129916; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:30 GMT (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:46:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Doug Rabson To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu, sam@errno.com, jar@integratus.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcs@newsguy.com Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 27-Feb-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. > > And, err, how hard is it to add support to the loader for this? > > It's read only which makes it simpler, and the code is well structured.. Very easy. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 6:48:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA05537B71A; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@flugsvamp.com) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f1REkwE57526; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:46:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:46:58 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jonathan Lemon , "Daniel O'Connor" , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, "\"(Zhiui Zhang)\"" , "\"(Sam Leffler)\"" , "\"(Jack Rusher)\"" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "\"(Daniel C. Sobral)\"" Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010227084658.D20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20010226221132.C20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200102270620.XAA13824@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200102270620.XAA13824@usr05.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 06:20:26AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > > > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. > > > > Or if you simply _WRITE_ some new code to read the XFS filesystem. > > Gee, if our loader groks ext2fs, it must be GPL'd, right? > > "Donations of code welcome". Sure. Just as soon as there is an XFS filesystem to boot from, of course. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 7:19:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from bilver.wjv.com (dhcp-1-111.n01.orldfl01.us.ra.verio.net [157.238.210.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA3A37B719 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:19:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill@bilver.wjv.com) Received: (from bill@localhost) by bilver.wjv.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA88524 for freebsd-fs@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:19:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bill) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:19:11 -0500 From: Bill Vermillion To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Message-ID: <20010227101911.A88501@wjv.com> Reply-To: bv@bilver.wjv.com References: <20010226221132.C20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200102270620.XAA13824@usr05.primenet.com> <20010227084658.D20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010227084658.D20550@prism.flugsvamp.com>; from jlemon@flugsvamp.com on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:46:58AM -0600 Organization: W.J.Vermillion / Orlando - Winter Park Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:46:58AM -0600, Jonathan Lemon thus spoke: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 06:20:26AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > > > > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. > > > > > > Or if you simply _WRITE_ some new code to read the XFS filesystem. > > > Gee, if our loader groks ext2fs, it must be GPL'd, right? > > "Donations of code welcome". > Sure. Just as soon as there is an XFS filesystem to boot from, of > course. Is my mind playing tricks on me? I seem to recall that on an SGI there is a separte boot file system then the XFS. It's been a couple of years now - but I convertned several from the 5.x to the 6.x Irix with the new XFS. Why does the boot file system have to be the same as a running file-system. I know that in some of the Sys V.x Intel variants, there is a separate booting file system conforming to the old s51 file system because the newer file systems they use wont boot in an iNTEL environment. Bill -- Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 10: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9CEB37B719; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.2/8.11.2/Skynet-OUT-2.11) with ESMTP id f1RI00o29145; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:00:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102270346.UAA10815@usr05.primenet.com> References: <200102270346.UAA10815@usr05.primenet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:48:22 +0100 To: Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:46 AM +0000 2/27/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > Because you can't ditribute a FreeBSD kernel with GPL'ed code > linked into it legally, due to the GPL disallowing distribution > of the code with non-GPL'ed code. > > Yes, changing the license to the LGPL would fix the problem. Ahh, okay. I haven't been watching the list very closely the last couple of days, and I had somehow come to the mistaken conclusion that your statement was made on the basis of technical reasons as opposed to license issues, and I just couldn't see how there would be technical problems with what you were proposing. Thanks for the clarification! -- ====================================================================== Brad Knowles, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 10:44:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mobile.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [65.0.135.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36D5637B718; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:44:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobile.wemm.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1RIiE730029; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:44:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <200102271844.f1RIiE730029@mobile.wemm.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.2 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Terry Lambert , dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:44:14 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > At 3:46 AM +0000 2/27/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Because you can't ditribute a FreeBSD kernel with GPL'ed code > > linked into it legally, due to the GPL disallowing distribution > > of the code with non-GPL'ed code. > > > > Yes, changing the license to the LGPL would fix the problem. > > Ahh, okay. I haven't been watching the list very closely the > last couple of days, and I had somehow come to the mistaken > conclusion that your statement was made on the basis of technical > reasons as opposed to license issues, and I just couldn't see how > there would be technical problems with what you were proposing. > > Thanks for the clarification! loader(8)'s requirements are so radically different to "real" file system code that no real code sharing is done. msdos, ufs, ext2fs etc are all essentially microscopic dumb simple readers. There is no way SGI's XFS would ever be linked in, regardless of license. If it was done, it would be a simple dumb low level reader that was done from the ground up, just like the rest of the fs stubs in there. ie: the SGI XFS license is irrelevant. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 11:45:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F3237B71A; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:45:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA25104; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:38:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA_vaWWW; Tue Feb 27 12:38:38 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA29013; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:44:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102271944.MAA29013@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: dfr@nlsystems.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:44:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug Rabson" at Feb 27, 2001 09:46:07 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Great, the most important part of my system has to be on some > > other FS type because otherwise I can't boot. > > > > I would prefer to have my boot loader, kernel, and modules live > > on the safest FS available to me. If that's not XFS, why use > > it? If it is XFS, then why use something else, except for the > > license making me? > > Terry, if it really matters that XFS root filesystems are bootable, then > someone will write an XFS reader module for libstand. Personally, I don't > think it will ever matter that much. Me neither; as long as the pain threshold is so high, XFS will not be ported by those with the ability, nor used by the majority of those without. PS: This is not the "XFS-advocacy" list. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 12:20:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E5A37B719; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29329; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:16:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAe3aWf5; Tue Feb 27 13:16:50 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00694; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:19:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102272019.NAA00694@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), jlemon@flugsvamp.com (Jonathan Lemon), doconnor@gsoft.com.au (Daniel O'Connor), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (""(Zhiui Zhang)""), sam@errno.com (""(Sam Leffler)""), jar@integratus.com (""(Jack Rusher)""), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dcs@newsguy.com (""(Daniel C. Sobral)"") In-Reply-To: <20010227084658.D20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Feb 27, 2001 08:46:58 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Not hard at all, if you are willing and able to GPL the loader > > > > to make linking it with GPL'ed R/O XFS code legal to distribute. > > > > > > Or if you simply _WRITE_ some new code to read the XFS filesystem. > > > Gee, if our loader groks ext2fs, it must be GPL'd, right? > > > > "Donations of code welcome". > > Sure. Just as soon as there is an XFS filesystem to boot from, of course. Do I have to say it? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 12:42:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from brutus.conectiva.com.br (brutus.conectiva.com.br [200.250.58.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 344B737B71B; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:42:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from riel@conectiva.com.br) Received: from localhost (riel@localhost) by brutus.conectiva.com.br (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1RKfnb10855; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:41:49 -0300 X-Authentication-Warning: duckman.distro.conectiva: riel owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:41:43 -0300 (BRST) From: Rik van Riel X-X-Sender: To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , "Daniel C. Sobral" , , Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010226211548.00bd65d0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:32 AM 2/26/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Note that IBM's release of the OS/2 JFS under the GPL throws > >it in the same position (replace "AIX" in the second paragraph > >up from this one with "IRIX"). > > It was tragic that this happened. IBM, of all companies, should > have known better than to stamp the GPL on its code. The GPL makes a lot of business sense: 1. everybody can include your code in products and sell it (just like the BSD license) 2. everybody can change your code and sell the changed version (just like the BSD license) 3. however, improvements to the code will be available to everbody; nobody will be able to take away IBM's market using an improved version of their product -- IBM itself will also have the improved code (different from BSD) Can you really blame them for chosing this option ? [Don't take me wrong, I think the BSD license is great for many things ... but this just doesn't seem to be one of them after looking at the business risk for a few seconds] regards, Rik -- Linux MM bugzilla: http://linux-mm.org/bugzilla.shtml Virtual memory is like a game you can't win; However, without VM there's truly nothing to lose... http://www.surriel.com/ http://www.conectiva.com/ http://distro.conectiva.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 13:35:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from kanga.honeypot.net (kanga.honeypot.net [216.224.193.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4405537B71D for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kirk@honeypot.net) Received: from pooh.honeypot (mail@pooh.honeypot [10.0.1.2]) by kanga.honeypot.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1RLZgJ19046; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:35:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from kirk@honeypot.net) Received: from kirk by pooh.honeypot with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14XrmY-0006Tp-00; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:35:42 -0600 To: kirk@strauser.com Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, mtbear@modus.org, corwin@ghostwheel.honeypot.net Subject: A benchmark of Vinum with IDE drives From: Kirk Strauser Date: 27 Feb 2001 15:35:42 -0600 Message-ID: <8766hverm9.fsf@pooh.honeypot> Lines: 295 X-Mailer: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I decided to benchmark Vinum on various combinations of low-cost hardware that a small-budget user might be likely to have. I thought that the results were interesting enough that someone else might like to read them, and I certainly thought that the FreeBSD community could use a few more actual numbers for would-be enthusiasts to dig through. The outcome of my testing follows below. ######## An Outline ######## 1. Introduction A. Motivation B. Setup notes 2. Identification A. Individual Devices B. Vinum Volume definitions 3. Benchmark Results A. Methodology 1. Bonnie 2. rawio B. Notes C. Results - Individual Devices 1. Bonnie 2. rawio D. Results - Vinum Volumes 1. Bonnie 2. rawio 4. Commentary A. Objective B. Subjective ######## The Presentation ######## 1. Introduction A. Motivation I became interested in Vinum at roughly the same time as when I noticed that my /usr partition was over 90% full. Specifically, a Linux-using friend was talking about LVM (Logical Volume Manager) and it's drive-concatenatio capabilities. This sounded like just the thing I needed. I need to explain something at this point. As you'll see below, my testbed had an U/W SCSI 4GB drive that I used for /, /var, /tmp, etc., and an ATA/66 13GB drive that held /usr, /usr/export, and other large mountpoints. Given that's what I had to work with, that's what I tested. Yes, I am *completely* aware that striping your volumes across two completely different drives is a pretty stupid idea, but it was fun. More impressively (to me), it worked - well, even. The point, though, is that I really do know better than to use the setup for real work. It was just a test; please don't make fun of me. Anyway, after the success of my asymmetrical experiments, I went to my local TV, refrigerator, and computer part superstore and bought two identical ATA/100 30GB drives, which are now my production hardware. Also, I went into this experiment knowing that SCSI would be a clear performance leader. However, with the phenomenally low price of IDE storage these days, the advantage simply isn't worth the extra cost for most home or small-LAN uses. I wanted to know what kind of raw throughput a home user or a small system administrator could get for their money if they were willing to invest a little work. My only criterion for these tests was sheer throughput. Some of the setups were more robust than others by definition, but that was not the purpose of the experiment. My goal in running these tests was not to provide scientifically accurate information to the world. I just wanted to find out what setup would give the best results on my hardware. While searching the web for basic hints, though, I discovered a total lack of hard numbers on the subject. Furthermore, IDE drives are almost never mentioned, and then usually only in a warning section. This is my little way to contribute to the body of knowledge. I hope that someone finds it helpful. B. Setup notes The test system is an Intel Celeron 400MHz CPU on an Asus P3B-F motherboard (BIOS version 1006) with 128MB of PC-100 ECC SDRAM. SCSI support is via a Tekram DC-390F PCI controller (BIOS version 3.22). The IDE controller is the motherboard's built-in Intel PIIX4 ATA33 chipset. All IDE drives were configured as "master" for their tests. In tests involving two IDE drives, each drive was on a separate controller. I did a quick before-and-after Bonnie test with two drives on the same controller, and it was sad. Pathetic. Not Good. Those results are not posted here. All sizes given are in "true" (2 ^ 10*n) measurements, rather than "sales" (1000 ^ n) figures. That is, 1MB = 1,048,576 bytes (not 1,000,000!). 2. Identification A. Individual Devices 1. ibm_scsi a. Model DCAS-34330W S65A (4.1GB) b. Ultra-wide SCSI, 3 platters, 8.5ms average seek time, 448KB buffer, 5400 RPM 2. ibm_ide a. Model DJNA-371350 (12.9 GB, aka "Deskstar 22GXP") b. Ultra ATA/66, 3 platters, 8.7ms average seek time, 1966KB buffer, 7200 RPM 3. maxtor1/2 a. Model 5T030H3 (29.3GB, aka "DiamondMax Plus 60") b. Ultra ATA/100, 2 platters, 8.7ms average seek time, 2MB buffer, 7200 RPM B. Vinum Volume definitions 1. A concat plex of one subdrive on a single IDE (ibm_ide) drive: volume A_SINGLE plex org concat sd length 1g drive ibm_ide 2. A 256k striped plex with one subdrive on IDE (ibm_ide) and one subdrive on SCSI (ibm_scsi): volume A_STRIPE plex org striped 256k sd length 1g drive ibm_ide sd length 1g drive ibm_scsi 3. A mirrored plex with subdrives on two IDE drives (maxtor1/2): volume MIRROR plex org concat sd length 1g drive maxtor1 plex org concat sd length 1g drive maxtor2 4. A 256k striped plex with subdrives on two IDE drives (maxtor1/2): volume STRIPE256 plex org striped 256k sd length 1g drive maxtor1 sd length 1g drive maxtor2 5. A 512k striped plex with subdrives on two IDE drives (maxtor1/2): volume STRIPE512 plex org striped 512k sd length 1g drive maxtor1 sd length 1g drive maxtor2 6. Two 256k striped plexes, each with subdrives on two IDE drives (maxtor1/2), mirrored: volume RAID10256 plex org striped 256k sd length 512m drive maxtor1 sd length 512m drive maxtor2 plex org striped 256k sd length 512m drive maxtor2 sd length 512m drive maxtor1 7. Two 512k striped plexes, each with subdrives on two IDE drives (maxtor1/2), mirrored: volume RAID10512 plex org striped 512k sd length 512m drive maxtor1 sd length 512m drive maxtor2 plex org striped 512k sd length 512m drive maxtor2 sd length 512m drive maxtor1 3. Benchmark Results A. Methodology Two tests were performed on the various drives and volumes: Bonnie and rawio. Bonnie is a well-known filesystem benchmarking program that measures the high-level throughput of a device. rawio differs in that it is specifically designed to bypass any filesystem caching in order to measure performance of the tested device itself. 1. Bonnie Bonnie writes to a file on the specified volume using various methods, then reads the contents back. In all cases, the default filelength of 100MB was used. The filesystem was initialized with newfs (without any command line arguments) before each test. The command line used was: bonnie -d {volume_name} > bonnie-{description} 2. rawio rawio accessess the specified block device directly. Since it ignores any filesystem data, newfs was not used on the device before each test as it was with Bonnie. The command line used was: rawio -a {volume_name} > rawio-{description} B. Notes All tests were not performed on all drive setups. If I had planned this a little more before the start of the project, I would've made the tests comprehensive. In the results below, the highest throughtput and lowest CPU utilization in each column are marked with an asterisk to the /right/ of the cell. No other ordering or row-arranging was done. C. Results - Individual Devices 1. Bonnie -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- IBM_SCSI 7960 39.6* 7995 12.6* 3680 8.4* 7850 38.7* 7930 10.0*261.0 3.5* IBM_IDE 14690*72.9 15050*25.5 6449 16.7 15728 78.0 17102 23.5 264.1 3.6 MAXTOR 13022 63.9 13470 22.0 7973*18.9 19455*95.7 29632*39.8 405.5* 5.2 2. rawio Random read Sequential read Random write Sequential write K/sec /sec K/sec /sec K/sec /sec K/sec /sec IBM_SCSI 1062.3 67 1008.2 62 1071.5 67 1054.0 64 IBM_IDE 2013.6 125 1996.3 122 1910.5* 118* 1898.7 116 MAXTOR 2291.4* 142* 5136.4* 314* 1324.8 82 8914.6* 544* D. Results - Vinum Volumes 1. Bonnie -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU A_SINGLE 15546*77.3 15794 25.2 7029 15.7 15956 78.4 16363 16.9 237.6 3.4* A_STRIPE 14764 76.5 15002 27.8 5220 14.2 11533 58.5*12843 18.1 336.8 5.3 MIRROR 8668 44.5 9484 16.2 3047 7.4*16318 81.4 20151 20.6 607.2 7.7 STRIPE256 13907 70.1 18756 32.0 8380*20.5 19125 97.4 27116 28.5 608.8* 7.6 STRIPE512 13789 69.4 18782*31.3 7711 18.5 19165*96.1 27918*28.4 545.8 7.2 RAID10256 8026 41.1* 9431 16.1 4055 9.6 12748 63.6 13714 14.7*439.5 5.7 RAID10512 8065 41.1* 9423 15.7* 3418 8.0 13002 64.7 14765 15.4 412.8 5.3 2. rawio Random read Sequential read Random write Sequential write ID K/sec /sec K/sec /sec K/sec /sec K/sec /sec A_STRIPE 2170.2 135 7060.9 431 2262.2* 140* 3596.3 219 MIRROR 3534.5* 218* 11908.9 727 1151.2 71 7739.2 472 STRIPE256 3246.0 202 18812.1 1148 2182.3 136 16774.7 1024 STRIPE512 3336.9 207 20659.3* 1261* 2240.7 139 16862.8* 1029* RAID10256 3004.9 187 10564.1 645 1041.7 64 8011.8 489 RAID10512 3029.9 189 13488.9 823 1058.1 66 8400.0 513 4. Commentary A. Objective The numbers pretty well speak for themselves, but I'm going to chip in anyway. In a nutshell, mirroring is very slow on this setup. I was disappointed to see that it didn't hold up to striping even for reads, except for it's slight lead in rawio's random test. Striping, on the other hand, was an all-around winner. In fact, except for CPU loading, I found no weak spot in this scheme at all. The RAID-10 setups offered no bonus at all. I suspect that anyone needing the robustness offered by such a setup would be using SCSI. Unsurprisingly, the U/W SCSI drive was always the must CPU-friendly device tested (and often by a huge margin). I make to claim to causality, though - it may have been more cycle-hungry if it were able to achieve the raw transfer rates of the newer IDE drives. B. Subjective I may never use a single-drive setup again. After settling into a 256k-striped configuration at the conclusion of the tests, everything seems to fly along. Doing a "make search" in /usr/ports for the letter 'a' takes .483 real seconds. NFS flies along. "make clean" is no longer agonizing. Yes, there is a definite place for SCSI drives, particularly in any real server. For the home user or administrator of a small file server, though, Vinum on IDE is a spectacular combination of blazing performance and rock-bottom price. If you haven't tried it already, make a backup of your data and start experimenting! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Feb 27 23:13:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0AA37B719; Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:13:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05367; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:07:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAF0aaAk; Wed Feb 28 00:07:17 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA18761; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:13:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102280713.AAA18761@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system To: riel@conectiva.com.br (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:13:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jar@integratus.com (Jack Rusher), sam@errno.com (Sam Leffler), zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu (Zhiui Zhang), freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Rik van Riel" at Feb 27, 2001 05:41:43 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 3. however, improvements to the code will be available to > everbody; nobody will be able to take away IBM's market > using an improved version of their product -- IBM itself > will also have the improved code (different from BSD) If JFS improvents are created, they are under the GPL, since they are a derivative work of code under that license, and thus IBM can not roll them back into OS/2, unless they release OS/2 under GPL. The same for XFS, SGI, and IRIX. Neither of these are possible, since, among other vendors, both OSs contain code licensed from Microsoft. Believe me, they are not expecting contributions from the community, other than bug fixes and porting. If the license were friendly to commercial use on either one of them, then it would be only a matter of time before a BSD using company paid a professional programmer to do something more than bug fixes and porting work. Most likely, the code would be released back out to offload maintenance, since it wouldn't constitute a huge intellectual property investment. I made these arguments to vice presidents of engineering in both companies. The only reason the code was released was marketing climbing onto the Linux bandwagon. > Can you really blame them for chosing this option ? Yes. As a stockholder, I can. The MPL would have been a much better commercial choice, since it would have given the company the right to roll changes back into its commercial product, instead of having to recreate them to avoid back-contamination. As a BSD user, the LGPL would have been a better choice. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 2:36:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from roaming.cacheboy.net (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A1C37B719; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@roaming.cacheboy.net) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by roaming.cacheboy.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1SAaiO39313; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:36:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:36:44 +0100 From: Adrian Chadd To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: mount fixes, part 1 Message-ID: <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm running through and tidying up the mount interface, as promised. My first set of patches aren't yet complete (there is at least one documented strncpy() I have to fix up). I am attempting to rework the VFS_MOUNT() vfsop to take kernel pointers, rather than userland pointers. This will reduce the complexity by removing the copyin*() functions and allow "other" syscall interfaces to be used (eg linux, osf/1..) jlemon did some initial work on this, but I've gone and redone his work. I've moved the bulk of the mount process into a function called vfs_mount(). mount() and the linux mount() use this function to mount a filesystem. It is up to the syscall itself to worry about copyin*()ing. Note that the mount data pointer is still a user pointer - fixing this will require a *lot* more work, possibly by replacing it by a set of sbufs or a set of attrib=value strings. It is my hope that eventually vfs_mount() and VFS_MOUNT() will not use copyin*() at all. Comments are welcome. I'd like to commit this in the next couple of days so I can continue with my VFS tidyups. You can find my patch at http://people.freebsd.org/~adrian/mount.diff . Note that I _will_ get to fixing the umount issues raised by mbr and rwatson, but I want to get this set fixed first. Thanks! Adrian -- Adrian Chadd "Programming is like sex: One mistake and you have to support for a lifetime." -- rec.humor.funny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 2:38:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (flutter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F262837B718; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 02:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1SAcfM34069; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:38:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Adrian Chadd Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount fixes, part 1 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:36:44 +0100." <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:38:40 +0100 Message-ID: <34067.983356720@critter> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net>, Adrian Chadd writes: >I am attempting to rework the VFS_MOUNT() vfsop to take kernel pointers, >rather than userland pointers. struct uio ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 10:13:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from roaming.cacheboy.net (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA0A37B719; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@roaming.cacheboy.net) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by roaming.cacheboy.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1SI96g40524; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:09:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:09:06 +0100 From: Adrian Chadd To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount fixes, part 1 Message-ID: <20010228190906.B40480@roaming.cacheboy.net> References: <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net> <34067.983356720@critter> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <34067.983356720@critter>; from phk@critter.freebsd.dk on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 11:38:40AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 28, 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net>, Adrian Chadd writes: > > >I am attempting to rework the VFS_MOUNT() vfsop to take kernel pointers, > >rather than userland pointers. > > struct uio ? Why would you bother with uio'ing path? :-) Perhaps the user data pointer could be uio'ed, but I haven't decided upon the best method to do this yet. I might rework the mount -p stuff.. Adrian -- Adrian Chadd "Programming is like sex: One mistake and you have to support for a lifetime." -- rec.humor.funny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 11:56:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from roaming.cacheboy.net (node16292.a2000.nl [24.132.98.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9657D37B71A; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@roaming.cacheboy.net) Received: (from adrian@localhost) by roaming.cacheboy.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1SJvK040795; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:57:21 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from adrian) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:57:20 +0100 From: Adrian Chadd To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mount fixes, part 1 Message-ID: <20010228205720.A40748@roaming.cacheboy.net> References: <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net>; from adrian@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 11:36:44AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 28, 2001, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm running through and tidying up the mount interface, as promised. > My first set of patches aren't yet complete (there is at least one > documented strncpy() I have to fix up). Ok, I've updated the patch again. http://people.freebsd.org/~adrian/mount.diff I plan on committing it in the next day or so. Thanks! Adrian -- Adrian Chadd "Programming is like sex: One mistake and you have to support for a lifetime." -- rec.humor.funny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 12:54:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC9E37B719; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA26639; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:47:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAhKai.X; Wed Feb 28 13:45:30 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05663; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:51:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200102282051.NAA05663@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: mount fixes, part 1 To: adrian@FreeBSD.ORG (Adrian Chadd) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:51:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010228113644.A39251@roaming.cacheboy.net> from "Adrian Chadd" at Feb 28, 2001 11:36:44 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is my hope that eventually vfs_mount() and VFS_MOUNT() will not > use copyin*() at all. > > Comments are welcome. I'd like to commit this in the next couple of days > so I can continue with my VFS tidyups. Took a quick peek... I assume that this is to allow user space and kernel space code to be equivalent, for developing in user space? This works particularly well, because of descriptor calling for VOPs, less so for VFSOPs. Probably you will want to descriptorize the VFS switch entry points, and pass descriptors. Descriptors would have to be internalized, but that would happen outside the code, so it would eliminate "copyin*()" (I guess that sopinstr() is the worst of these, which is why you aren't using uio instead, even though uio in user space would take more work?). For this to work, you will need to seperate the mount creating a mounted file system list instance from the vnode covering, or you will find yourself unable to develop anything other than "VFS on top, VFS on bottom" modules in user space, and unable to mount more than one stacking layer deep. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-fs Wed Feb 28 15:53:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from deliverator.sgi.com (deliverator.sgi.com [204.94.214.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F242B37B719; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:53:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cattelan@thebarn.com) Received: from ledzep.americas.sgi.com (ledzep.americas.sgi.com [137.38.226.97]) by deliverator.sgi.com (980309.SGI.8.8.8-aspam-6.2/980310.SGI-aspam) via ESMTP id PAA04733; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:50:21 -0800 (PST) mail_from (cattelan@thebarn.com) Received: from gibble.americas.sgi.com (gibble.americas.sgi.com [128.162.195.80]) by ledzep.americas.sgi.com (SGI-SGI-8.9.3/americas-smart-nospam1.1) with ESMTP id RAA70608; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:51:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from thebarn.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gibble.americas.sgi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f1SNoFj23223; Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:50:17 -0500 Message-ID: <3A9D8EB6.42C6E7CE@thebarn.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:50:14 -0500 From: Russell Cattelan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-XFS i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Wemm Cc: Brad Knowles , Terry Lambert , "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jack Rusher , Sam Leffler , Zhiui Zhang , freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system References: <200102271844.f1RIiE730029@mobile.wemm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Wemm wrote: > Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 3:46 AM +0000 2/27/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > Because you can't ditribute a FreeBSD kernel with GPL'ed code > > > linked into it legally, due to the GPL disallowing distribution > > > of the code with non-GPL'ed code. > > > > > > Yes, changing the license to the LGPL would fix the problem. > > > > Ahh, okay. I haven't been watching the list very closely the > > last couple of days, and I had somehow come to the mistaken > > conclusion that your statement was made on the basis of technical > > reasons as opposed to license issues, and I just couldn't see how > > there would be technical problems with what you were proposing. > > > > Thanks for the clarification! > > loader(8)'s requirements are so radically different to "real" file system > code that no real code sharing is done. msdos, ufs, ext2fs etc are all > essentially microscopic dumb simple readers. > > There is no way SGI's XFS would ever be linked in, regardless of license. If > it was done, it would be a simple dumb low level reader that was done > from the ground up, just like the rest of the fs stubs in there. ie: > the SGI XFS license is irrelevant. This was my take on the situation also. I had a brief talk with the person primarily responsible for getting XFS license in order. He confirmed and few things... SGI has 0 interest in XFS on BSD, no objections to it but no from a business stand point no arguable benefits. In fact it is becoming less clear if GPL'ing the code for linux has resulting in any gain. In terms of how far the GPL can be applied in regarding kernel modules. The GPL states code "linked" with GPL code must then also fall under the GPL, apparently the process of exporting symbols such that an external modules can reference them does not fall under "linking". I not arguing the point either way this is SGI interpretation of how the GPL applies to the code base. The reason for this interpretation; SGI will have several non open source products for linux which therefore must remain un infected. On a bit of slightly good news he did agree to look at the LGPL and see if it can be adapted to meet SGI requirement and reduce some of the concerns of the BSD fears of GPL infection. As far as a third party copyrights, at this point only one identifiable contribution has been made to the linux code base that may have arguable copyrights. This code deals with extended attributes on the linux side. Small bug fixes are not significant enough to constitute intellectual property and therefore do not have dependable copyrights. (with dependable being the important part, copyrights may be asserted but unless they are dependable they carry no merit). I'm not sure if people are aware of this but a few people (including myself) have started working on the port. If anybody is actually interesting in contributing and necessarily spending all of his/her time playing part time lawyer let me know I will set you up access to the repository. At this point nothing is working but the core code is compiling. Russell Cattelan -- Digital Elves inc. -- Currently on loan to SGI Linux XFS core developer. 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