From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25  0:37:55 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:36:50 +0300
From: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>
To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Cc: Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
Message-ID: <20010325113649.D36335@ringworld.oblivion.bg>
Mail-Followup-To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>,
	Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
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References: <20010324221539.A025A3E09@bazooka.unixfreak.org> <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251411210.33345-100000@besplex.bde.org>
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On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 02:18:43PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Dima Dorfman wrote:
> 
> > I tried to export this stuff in struct statfs, but ran into a problem:
> > I'd need the complete definitions of <fs>_args in <sys/mount.h>, but I
> > can't include, e.g., <nfs/nfs.h> because the latter includes the
> > former (<sys/mount.h>)!
> 
> mount.h used to know too much about all sorts of filesystems, but this
> was fixed in 4.4BSD.  It is impossible for mount.h or mount(8) to know
> about all file systems, since filesystems can be dynamically loaded,
> and ugly for it to know about more than 1 (or 0 -- ffs is too special).
> 
> > The patch below kind of implements this functionality.  I only export
> > nfs_args (not <otherfs>_args), and I only modified mount(8) to print
> > the NFS version, but printing the transport and others is simple from
> > there.  To work around the above problem, I pasted the struct nfs_args
> > definition into mount.h.  It is *horribly* ugly, but it does work.
> 
> Only mount_foofs can reasonably know about the options for foofs.
> perhaps mount(8) could fork-exec mount_foofs(8) to print options for
> foofs.

<bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
of each mountpoint's mount options?
</bikeshed>

G'luck,
Peter

-- 
I am the thought you are now thinking.

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25  0:40:11 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:39:51 -0800
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>
Cc: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>, Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
Message-ID: <20010325003951.O9431@fw.wintelcom.net>
References: <20010324221539.A025A3E09@bazooka.unixfreak.org> <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251411210.33345-100000@besplex.bde.org> <20010325113649.D36335@ringworld.oblivion.bg>
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* Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg> [010325 00:38] wrote:
> 
> <bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
> Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
> of each mountpoint's mount options?
> </bikeshed>

That seems like abuse of an interface.

-- 
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
Daemon News Magazine in your snail-mail! http://magazine.daemonnews.org/

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25  2: 2:45 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:01:48 +1000 (EST)
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
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To: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>
Cc: Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
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On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Peter Pentchev wrote:

> > Only mount_foofs can reasonably know about the options for foofs.
> > perhaps mount(8) could fork-exec mount_foofs(8) to print options for
> > foofs.
> 
> <bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
> Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
> of each mountpoint's mount options?
> </bikeshed>

My bikeshed believes that string processing doesn't belong in the kernel :-).

Bruce


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25  2: 7:23 2001
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To: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Cc: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>,
	Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:01:48 +1000."
             <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251959150.35139-100000@besplex.bde.org> 
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:07:02 +0200
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In message <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251959150.35139-100000@besplex.bde.org>, Bruce Ev
ans writes:
>On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Peter Pentchev wrote:
>
>> > Only mount_foofs can reasonably know about the options for foofs.
>> > perhaps mount(8) could fork-exec mount_foofs(8) to print options for
>> > foofs.
>> 
>> <bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
>> Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
>> of each mountpoint's mount options?
>> </bikeshed>
>
>My bikeshed believes that string processing doesn't belong in the kernel :-).

I tore down my version of that bikeshed after I saw what kind of
bogosities it resulted in.  Sometimes ascii is the right API.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk@FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25  2:49:24 2001
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Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:49:14 +0700 (ALMST)
From: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
To: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>
Cc: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>, Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
In-Reply-To: <20010325113649.D36335@ringworld.oblivion.bg>
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On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Peter Pentchev wrote:

> <bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
> Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
> of each mountpoint's mount options?
> </bikeshed>

	This is not a bikeshed, but sysctl is the wrong interface to do
this. Use VFSs/VOPs instead. This isn't a big problem with passing string
from kernel to userland.

--
Boris Popov
http://www.butya.kz/~bp/


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25 12:48:13 2001
Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 02:58:58 +0000
From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
To: Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc: fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: growfs
Message-ID: <20010323025858.C386@hand.dotat.at>
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Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>I don't know how hard a compile it would be on an older version
>of FreeBSD; if not hard, you'd think it would have been merged
>back for the 4.3 release.

ISTR seeing talk of problems on the alpha.

Tony.
-- 
f.a.n.finch      fanf@covalent.net      dot@dotat.at


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25 13:21: 9 2001
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Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:26:26 +0200
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it might be worth to look at OpenBSD - i think they did that
some time ago ...

t

In article
<Pine.BSF.4.33.0103240909260.9037-100000@deneb.dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at  wrote:

> I tried to get some responses to this on -questions a couple of months
> ago, but failed:
> 
> What I'd like to see is `mount -v' printing
> 
>   mail:/var/mail on /var/mail (nfs: v3, udp) vexpert:/files7 on
>   /system (nfs: v3, tcp) vexpert:/files5 on /.amd_mnt/vexpert/files5
>   (nfs: v3, udp)
>                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> instead of
> 
>   mail:/var/mail on /var/mail (nfs) vexpert:/files7 on /system (nfs)
>   vexpert:/files5 on /.amd_mnt/vexpert/files5 (nfs)
>                                                ^^^
> 
> This kind of information is incredibly useful for debugging, yet I
> haven't found ANY way to obtain it, let alone such a natural one.
> 
> Gerald
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe
> freebsd-fs" in the body of the message
> 


-- 
thomas graichen <tgr@spoiled.org> ... perfection is reached, not
when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no
longer anything to take away. --- antoine de saint-exupery

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Sun Mar 25 14:29:32 2001
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To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>, Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, phk@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts 
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251746060.76801-100000@lion.butya.kz>; from bp@butya.kz on "Sun, 25 Mar 2001 17:49:14 +0700 (ALMST)"
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:29:20 -0800
From: Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>
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Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz> writes:
> 	This is not a bikeshed, but sysctl is the wrong interface to do
> this. Use VFSs/VOPs instead. This isn't a big problem with passing string
> from kernel to userland.

I like your idea of using the extattr interface.  It isn't a perfect
match, since ideally this would be a VFS operation, but it works quite
well.  The only modifications required are to mount(8) to try to get
this attribute, and then to any filesystem which wishes to support it.

Below is a patch which makes the necessary changes to mount(8), and
adds support for this to NFS.  It's amazingly simple, and doesn't
interfere with anything else (i.e., you don't have to rebuild half the
world to use it).  The only thing I don't like is that the "mountopts"
and "mountopts_verbose" constants aren't macroized, but that can be
easily solved (I just didn't know where to put them).  With it,
mount(8) outputs stuff like this:

dima@spike% /sbin/mount -vt nfs
pid295@spike:/host on /host (nfs, v2, udp, hard, intr)
pid295@spike:/st on /st (nfs, v2, udp, hard, intr)
bazooka:/a on /.amd/bazooka/host/a (nfs, nodev, nosuid, v3, tcp, hard, intr)
bazooka:/b on /.amd/bazooka/host/b (nfs, nodev, nosuid, v3, tcp, hard, intr)

Comments?  Suggestions?

Thanks in advance

					Dima Dorfman
					dima@unixfreak.org

P.S.  Would anyone have a fit if I wrote man pages for
extattr_get_file, extattr_set_file, and extattr_delete_file?


Index: sbin/mount/mount.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /st/src/FreeBSD/src/sbin/mount/mount.c,v
retrieving revision 1.41
diff -u -r1.41 mount.c
--- sbin/mount/mount.c	2000/11/22 17:54:56	1.41
+++ sbin/mount/mount.c	2001/03/25 22:16:14
@@ -49,6 +49,7 @@
 #include <sys/mount.h>
 #include <sys/stat.h>
 #include <sys/wait.h>
+#include <sys/uio.h>
 
 #include <err.h>
 #include <errno.h>
@@ -505,6 +506,8 @@
 	int flags;
 	struct opt *o;
 	struct passwd *pw;
+	struct iovec iov;
+	char buf[128];
 
 	(void)printf("%s on %s (%s", sfp->f_mntfromname, sfp->f_mntonname,
 	    sfp->f_fstypename);
@@ -515,6 +518,11 @@
 			(void)printf(", %s", o->o_name);
 			flags &= ~o->o_opt;
 		}
+	iov.iov_base = buf;
+	iov.iov_len = sizeof(buf);
+	if (extattr_get_file(sfp->f_mntonname,
+	    verbose ? "mountopts_verbose" : "mountopts", &iov, 1) > 0)
+		(void)printf(", %s", iov.iov_base);
 	if (sfp->f_owner) {
 		(void)printf(", mounted by ");
 		if ((pw = getpwuid(sfp->f_owner)) != NULL)
Index: sys/nfs/nfs_vnops.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /st/src/FreeBSD/src/sys/nfs/nfs_vnops.c,v
retrieving revision 1.164
diff -u -r1.164 nfs_vnops.c
--- sys/nfs/nfs_vnops.c	2001/02/28 04:13:11	1.164
+++ sys/nfs/nfs_vnops.c	2001/03/25 22:16:14
@@ -62,6 +62,7 @@
 #include <sys/lockf.h>
 #include <sys/stat.h>
 #include <sys/sysctl.h>
+#include <sys/sbuf.h>
 
 #include <vm/vm.h>
 #include <vm/vm_extern.h>
@@ -130,6 +131,7 @@
 static int	nfs_print __P((struct vop_print_args *));
 static int	nfs_advlock __P((struct vop_advlock_args *));
 static int	nfs_bwrite __P((struct vop_bwrite_args *));
+static int	nfs_getextattr __P((struct vop_getextattr_args *));
 /*
  * Global vfs data structures for nfs
  */
@@ -169,6 +171,7 @@
 	{ &vop_symlink_desc,		(vop_t *) nfs_symlink },
 	{ &vop_unlock_desc,		(vop_t *) vop_stdunlock },
 	{ &vop_write_desc,		(vop_t *) nfs_write },
+	{ &vop_getextattr_desc,		(vop_t *) nfs_getextattr },
 	{ NULL, NULL }
 };
 static struct vnodeopv_desc nfsv2_vnodeop_opv_desc =
@@ -3397,4 +3400,51 @@
 		}
 	}
 	return (VOCALL(fifo_vnodeop_p, VOFFSET(vop_close), ap));
+}
+
+/*
+ * Get extended attributes.  Currently this is only used to retrieve
+ * filesystem-specific mount options for consumption by mount(8).
+ */
+static int
+nfs_getextattr(ap)
+	struct vop_getextattr_args /*{
+		IN struct vnode *a_vp;
+		IN const char *a_name;
+		INOUT struct uio *a_uio;
+		IN struct ucred *a_cred;
+		IN struct proc *a_p;
+	}; */ *ap;
+{
+	struct nfsmount *nmp = VFSTONFS(ap->a_vp->v_mount);
+	struct sbuf sb;
+	char *outp;
+	int outl, verbose = 0, error = 0;
+
+	/* XXX macroize "mountopts" and "mountopts_verbose"! */
+	if (strncmp(ap->a_name, "mountopts", 9) != 0)
+		return (ENOENT);
+	if (strncmp(ap->a_name, "mountopts_verbose", 17) == 0)
+		verbose = 1;
+
+	sbuf_new(&sb, NULL, 128, 0);
+	sbuf_printf(&sb, "%s", nmp->nm_flag & NFSMNT_NFSV3 ? "v3" : "v2");
+	sbuf_printf(&sb, ", %s",
+	    (nmp->nm_sotype == SOCK_DGRAM) ? "udp" : "tcp");
+	if (nmp->nm_flag & NFSMNT_SOFT)
+		sbuf_cat(&sb, ", soft");
+	else if (verbose)
+		sbuf_cat(&sb, ", hard");
+	if (nmp->nm_flag & NFSMNT_INT)
+		sbuf_cat(&sb, ", intr");
+	sbuf_finish(&sb);
+
+	outp = sbuf_data(&sb);
+	outl = sbuf_len(&sb) + 1;
+	if (outl > ap->a_uio->uio_resid)
+		outl = ap->a_uio->uio_resid;
+	if (outl > 0)
+		error = uiomove(outp, outl, ap->a_uio);
+	sbuf_delete(&sb);
+	return (error);
 }

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26  7:56: 2 2001
Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
Received: from roaming.cacheboy.net (roaming.cacheboy.net [203.56.168.69])
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	(envelope-from adrian)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 11:59:43 +0200
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: Boris Popov <bp@butya.kz>
Cc: Peter Pentchev <roam@orbitel.bg>, Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>,
	Dima Dorfman <dima@unixfreak.org>,
	Gerald Pfeifer <pfeifer@dbai.tuwien.ac.at>,
	freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Displaying options for current NFS mounts
Message-ID: <20010326115942.A48621@roaming.cacheboy.net>
References: <20010325113649.D36335@ringworld.oblivion.bg> <Pine.BSF.4.21.0103251746060.76801-100000@lion.butya.kz>
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On Sun, Mar 25, 2001, Boris Popov wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Peter Pentchev wrote:
> 
> > <bikeshed type=question value="mostly stupid">
> > Or could mount(8) invoke a couple of sysctl's to get a string representation
> > of each mountpoint's mount options?
> > </bikeshed>
> 
> 	This is not a bikeshed, but sysctl is the wrong interface to do
> this. Use VFSs/VOPs instead. This isn't a big problem with passing string
> from kernel to userland.

.. (god knows when this'll get through, as I'm writing this email
whilst waiting for a flight at Heathrow Airport..)

I've been considering mapping the mount options into a string and
having that passed down into VFS_MOUNT.

However, the real solution right now is to make mount_$FSTYPE -p work.
Then mount can just wrap mount_$FSTYPE, just like fsck / fsck_$FSTYPE
does.

The only thing preventing me from doing it right now is the lack of
Copious Free Time(tm) :)

-- 
Adrian Chadd			"Programming is like sex:
<adrian@freebsd.org>		   One mistake and you have to support for
				    a lifetime." -- rec.humor.funny


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26  9: 0:52 2001
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Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 12:15:40 -0500
From: Coleman Kane <cokane@FreeBSD.ORG>
To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" <karsten@rohrbach.de>
Cc: bv@wjv.com, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system
Message-ID: <20010326121540.B83061@cokane.yi.org>
References: <20010226221132.C20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> <200102270620.XAA13824@usr05.primenet.com> <20010227084658.D20550@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20010227101911.A88501@wjv.com> <20010325060752.A28058@rohrbach.de>
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All those things that intel systems are expected to conform to are just
BIOS restrictions. The nice thing about IBMs, Suns, and many other
non-PC workstations is that they have a nice BIOS system designed to
handle such things as the ipldevice, etc. Intel systems, without BIOS,
simply just start executing whatever is at 0xffff0 (i think that's it,
towards the end of memory anyway), which typically is where the BIOS
chip is mapped/wired. If PC BIOSes weren't so brain-dead we could have
all sorts of useful features (e.g.: 386 and 486 hardware does have the
ability to boot from ATA CD, but the BIOS doesn't know how to find it).

Anyway, many linux-based distro's use a seperate small partition to boot
the kernel, typically if the driver for the boot device is not compiled
in the kernel. The loading mechanism is pretty different though, and
I don't really see the advantage in the BSD's. At least, not until we
run into the problem where our loader can't get the kernel off the boot
device. That's what all the _ROOT macros in config are for.

Karsten W. Rohrbach had the audacity to say:
>=20
> Bill Vermillion(bill@bilver.wjv.com)@Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:19:11AM -050=
0:
> > On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:46:58AM -0600, Jonathan Lemon thus spoke:
> > Is my mind playing tricks on me?  I seem to recall that on an SGI
> > there is a separte boot file system then the XFS.   It's been a
> > couple of years now - but I convertned several from the 5.x to the
> > 6.x Irix with the new XFS. =20
> yeah afaik there is a separate partition/slice/whatsoever that holds the
> boot files.
>=20
> >=20
> > Why does the boot file system have to be the same as a running
> > file-system.  I know that in some of the Sys V.x Intel variants,
> > there is a separate booting file system conforming to the old
> > s51 file system because the newer file systems they use wont
> > boot in an iNTEL environment.
> i know some people will ignite their flamethrowers now but
> <asbestos suit>
> i like the idea behind /dev/ipldevice on ibm aix.
> its just container for some very simple structure that holds the files
> needed to boot as far as devices and other drivers are loaded to get
> into the next stage and kinda kldload(8) the other drivers and stuff
> before commencing the real rc stuff.
> this means -- in the simplest implementation -- having a partition, lets
> say /dev/da0e with approx. 10 mb size and symlinking it to
> /dev/bootdevice. then some administration model like linux' lilo has to
> be run where the image of the boot file system gets assembled somehow.
> dirty hack: having a directory /bootstage where all the files (loader,
> rcfiles, kernel, modules) are copied in and=20
> 	cd /bootstage && find .|cpio -o /dev/bootdevice
> now the loader has to grok cpio or tar format.
> </asbestos suit>
>=20
> very stable and convenient way. to be suitable for production use there
> has to be some kind of selection mechanism for the old setup but that's
> not a big point in discussion i guess.
>=20
> cheers,
> /k
>=20
> --=20
> > LET Jesus be YOUR anchor! When Satan rocks your boat, THROW Jesus overb=
oard!
> KR433/KR11-RIPE -- http://www.webmonster.de -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de
>=20
>=20
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message
>=20

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26 10: 0:41 2001
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From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" <karsten@rohrbach.de>
To: Coleman Kane <cokane@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: bv@wjv.com, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Design a journalled file system
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Coleman Kane(cokane@FreeBSD.ORG)@Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 12:15:40PM -0500:
> All those things that intel systems are expected to conform to are just
> BIOS restrictions. The nice thing about IBMs, Suns, and many other
> non-PC workstations is that they have a nice BIOS system designed to
> handle such things as the ipldevice, etc. Intel systems, without BIOS,
> simply just start executing whatever is at 0xffff0 (i think that's it,
> towards the end of memory anyway), which typically is where the BIOS
> chip is mapped/wired. If PC BIOSes weren't so brain-dead we could have
> all sorts of useful features (e.g.: 386 and 486 hardware does have the
> ability to boot from ATA CD, but the BIOS doesn't know how to find it).
yup, but you can get around those problems like all the bootloaders do.
in stage2 where yup replace the rotten biso stuph with code that makes
more sense - an that is loaded from disk.

>=20
> Anyway, many linux-based distro's use a seperate small partition to boot
> the kernel, typically if the driver for the boot device is not compiled
> in the kernel. The loading mechanism is pretty different though, and
> I don't really see the advantage in the BSD's. At least, not until we
> run into the problem where our loader can't get the kernel off the boot
> device. That's what all the _ROOT macros in config are for.
linux' way of booting with lilo is a little strange on redhat and other
distributions. it is kind-of statically wired, tho, but without the need
to recompile the kernel. i do not think that this is the way of
bootloader config the bsd community wants.

lilo works as follows:
- bios posts and gets the mbr excutable code from the first disk it finds
  a partition on.
- mbr bootcode gets the stage1 loader via directly mapped sectors on the
  device
- stage1 gets stage1.5 (sometimes, i am not really into this anymore
  since linux kernel 0.99.15) also via sectormapping method
- stage2 finally is the linuxloader and when it runs it actually knows
  the sectormappings of the files it needs
- on redhat it loads some gzipped kernel image and a gzipped root fs
  image in ramdisk format

there are a lot more intelligent approaches to this, like grub or the
freebsd loader.
the main difference i want to point out with that is, that those loaders
actually know about the filesystems they're dealing with. lilo afaik
does not do this.

when it comes to something like ipldevice, the approach is a different
one. say you got a bios that boots an mbr or active partition bootblock,
then you can execute a secondary loader (that on pc finally just
fulfills the task of let's say ibm's openboot firmware on rs6k). this
loader does not know about an actual filesystem but it knows the
partitioning schemata (dos partition tables, bsd disklabels) and this
one finds a flagged partition in a bsdlabel that sits on the raw disk or in
a dos compliant partition. now theres the interesting point that this
loader does not understand any real filesystem but let's say tar format
and it expects to find a tar archive sitting at the beginning on this
partition the contains a prepared "ready-to-boot" imagefile or more of
them, then it just has to display some options to select the right
image, load it in ram and bang: there you go. the actual loader process,
inserting kld's and the like, is put to the point where init starts
before actual rc processing begins. with the right stripped-down kernel
that accepts being linked to a minimal set of bio modules to accomplish
just this task it is no problem. thats my understanding of what ibm
does.
- small kernel gets linked against the appropriate modules with mkboot
  and gets shoved into /dev/ipldevice
- after booting the kernel, modules are loaded

interesting scenarios would be possible like
- booting with the root fs on vinum
- booting with the root fs being something different ;-)
- booting without the need for a fully fedged /boot/loader
- booting stuff on raid adapters
- booting a rootfs that sits in a file on an arbitrary filesystem (if
  the basic fs support for the kernel is there)

=2E..and you do not have to worry about implemnting filesystem readaccess
for every new fstype in /boot/loader.

does that make sense?

/k

>=20
> Karsten W. Rohrbach had the audacity to say:
> >=20
> > Bill Vermillion(bill@bilver.wjv.com)@Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:19:11AM -0=
500:
> > > On Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:46:58AM -0600, Jonathan Lemon thus spoke:
> > > Is my mind playing tricks on me?  I seem to recall that on an SGI
> > > there is a separte boot file system then the XFS.   It's been a
> > > couple of years now - but I convertned several from the 5.x to the
> > > 6.x Irix with the new XFS. =20
> > yeah afaik there is a separate partition/slice/whatsoever that holds the
> > boot files.
> >=20
> > >=20
> > > Why does the boot file system have to be the same as a running
> > > file-system.  I know that in some of the Sys V.x Intel variants,
> > > there is a separate booting file system conforming to the old
> > > s51 file system because the newer file systems they use wont
> > > boot in an iNTEL environment.
> > i know some people will ignite their flamethrowers now but
> > <asbestos suit>
> > i like the idea behind /dev/ipldevice on ibm aix.
> > its just container for some very simple structure that holds the files
> > needed to boot as far as devices and other drivers are loaded to get
> > into the next stage and kinda kldload(8) the other drivers and stuff
> > before commencing the real rc stuff.
> > this means -- in the simplest implementation -- having a partition, lets
> > say /dev/da0e with approx. 10 mb size and symlinking it to
> > /dev/bootdevice. then some administration model like linux' lilo has to
> > be run where the image of the boot file system gets assembled somehow.
> > dirty hack: having a directory /bootstage where all the files (loader,
> > rcfiles, kernel, modules) are copied in and=20
> > 	cd /bootstage && find .|cpio -o /dev/bootdevice
> > now the loader has to grok cpio or tar format.
> > </asbestos suit>
> >=20
> > very stable and convenient way. to be suitable for production use there
> > has to be some kind of selection mechanism for the old setup but that's
> > not a big point in discussion i guess.
> >=20
> > cheers,
> > /k
> >=20
> > --=20
> > > LET Jesus be YOUR anchor! When Satan rocks your boat, THROW Jesus ove=
rboard!
> > KR433/KR11-RIPE -- http://www.webmonster.de -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de
> >=20
> >=20
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-fs" in the body of the message
> >=20



--=20
> Booze is the answer. I don't remember the question.
KR433/KR11-RIPE -- http://www.webmonster.de -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26 10:44:57 2001
Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
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Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:44:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.org>
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To: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.org
Subject: cvs commit: src/sys/conf files options src/sys/ufs/ufs acl.h         ufs_acl.c ufs_vnops.c (fwd)
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Just a heads up for those interested.

Robert N M Watson             FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project
robert@fledge.watson.org      NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:53:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.org>
To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org
Subject: cvs commit: src/sys/conf files options src/sys/ufs/ufs acl.h         ufs_acl.c ufs_vnops.c

rwatson     2001/03/26 09:53:19 PST

  Modified files:
    sys/conf             files options 
    sys/ufs/ufs          ufs_vnops.c 
  Added files:
    sys/ufs/ufs          acl.h ufs_acl.c 
  Log:
  Introduce support for POSIX.1e ACLs on UFS-based file systems.  This
  implementation is still experimental, and while fairly broadly tested,
  is not yet intended for production use.  Support for POSIX.1e ACLs on
  UFS will not be MFC'd to RELENG_4.
  
  This implementation works by providing implementations of VOP_[GS]ETACL()
  for FFS, as well as modifying the appropriate access control and file
  creation routines.  In this implementation, ACLs are backed into extended
  attributes; the base ACL (owner, group, other) permissions remain in the
  inode for performance and compatibility reasons, so only the extended and
  default ACLs are placed in extended attributes.  The logic for ACL
  evaluation is provided by the fs-independent kern/kern_acl.c.
  
  o Introduce UFS_ACL, a compile-time configuration option that enables
    support for ACLs on FFS (and potentially other UFS-based file systems).
  o Introduce ufs_getacl(), ufs_setacl(), ufs_aclcheck(), which
    respectively get, set, and check the ACLs on the passed vnode.
  o Introduce ufs_sync_acl_from_inode(), ufs_sync_inode_from_acl() to
    maintain access control information between inode permissions and
    extended attribute data.
  o Modify ufs_access() to load a file access ACL and invoke
    vaccess_acl_posix1e() if ACLs are available on the file system
  o Modify ufs_mkdir() and ufs_makeinode() to associate ACLs with newly
    created directories and files, inheriting from the parent directory's
    default ACL.
  o Enable these new vnode operations and conditionally compiled code
    paths if UFS_ACL is defined.
  
  A few notes:
  
  o This implementation is fairly widely tested, but still should be
    considered experimental.
  o Currently, ACLs are not exported via NFS, instead, the summarizing
    file mode/etc from the inode is.  This results in conservative
    protection behavior, similar to the behavior of ACL-nonaware programs
    acting locally.
  o It is possible that underlying binary data formats associated with
    this implementation may change.  Consumers of the implementation
    should expect to find their local configuration obsoleted in the
    next few months, resulting in possible loss of ACL data during an
    upgrade.
  o The extended attributes interface and implementation is still
    undergoing modification to address portable interface concerns, as
    well as performance.
  o Many applications do not yet correctly handle ACLs.  In general,
    due to the POSIX.1e ACL model, behavior of ACL-unaware applications
    will be conservative with respects to file protection; some caution
    is recommended.
  o Instructions for configuring and maintaining ACLs on UFS will be
    committed in the near future; in the mean time it is possible to
    reference the README included in the last UFS ACL distribution
    placed in the TrustedBSD web site:
  
        http://www.TrustedBSD.org/downloads/
  
  Substantial debugging, hardware, travel, or connectivity support for this
  project was provided by: BSDi, Safeport Network Services, and NAI Labs.
  Significant coding contributions were made by Chris Faulhaber.  Additional
  support was provided by Brian Feldman, Thomas Moestl, and Ilmar Habibulin.
  
  Reviewed by:	jedgar, keichii, mckusick, trustedbsd-discuss, freebsd-fs
  Obtained from:	TrustedBSD Project
  
  Revision  Changes    Path
  1.502     +2 -1      src/sys/conf/files
  1.266     +6 -1      src/sys/conf/options
  1.160     +214 -6    src/sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c



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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26 23:37:18 2001
Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Matt Dillon <dillon@earth.backplane.com>
Cc: Ted Faber <faber@ISI.EDU>,
	"Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>, fs@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Subject: Re: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server
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References: <20010320111144.A51924@peorth.iteration.net> <20010320092717.R29888@fw.wintelcom.net> <20010320113818.B52586@peorth.iteration.net> <20010320094837.B1284@ted.isi.edu> <20010320120314.D52586@peorth.iteration.net> <20010320102156.C1284@ted.isi.edu> <200103201904.f2KJ4GP95937@earth.backplane.com>
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On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:04:16 -0800, Matt Dillon wrote:
>>> SWAP is never touched. :)
>>>
>>> last pid: 23395;  load averages:  2.08,  2.92,  3.60    up 0+01:29:58  02:03:27
>>> 1529 processes:24 running, 1505 sleeping
>>> CPU states: 40.5% user,  0.0% nice, 46.4% system,  1.1% interrupt, 12.0% idle
>>> Mem: 705M Active, 1369M Inact, 332M Wired, 99M Cache, 265M Buf, 7504K Free
>>> Swap: 512M Total, 512M Free
>>
>> A couple other people have mentioned that this is your swap load when
>> the machine's quiet.  MFS can exhaust your swap quickly, and if you
>> scale these load numbers up by a factor of 10, I think you're going to
>> touch swap.  (Even here you're already down to 7M free mem.)
>
>     That is almost certainly what is occuring.  Since swap is otherwise not
>     being used much, I'm going to retract my '3G of swap' recommendation
>     (though if you ever repartition your disks I would still do it).
>     You don't need 3G of swap, the 512M is fine as long as you scrap MFS.

One of the reasons this question came up is because dumps weren't
enabled.  If they had been, we would have seen the problem.  That's
why I'd recommend at least as much swap as memory, even if it doesn't
get touched.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Mon Mar 26 23:47: 3 2001
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>
Cc: dillon@freebsd.org, fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
> [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
> This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
>
> <snip>
>
> Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
> stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
> size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,

No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.

> can we safely use <150K stripe sizes?

Safely, yes.  But as somebody else has observed, you are probably disk
I/O bound.  Reducing the stripe size will tend to increase the disk
load, though probably not very much if your files are all 4 kB.  I'd
go for something like 273 kB stripes.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27  0: 7:15 2001
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From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>,
	dillon@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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* Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> [010326 23:47] wrote:
> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
> > [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
> > This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
> > stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
> > size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
> 
> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.
> 
> > can we safely use <150K stripe sizes?
> 
> Safely, yes.  But as somebody else has observed, you are probably disk
> I/O bound.  Reducing the stripe size will tend to increase the disk
> load, though probably not very much if your files are all 4 kB.  I'd
> go for something like 273 kB stripes.

Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
be a non optimal stripe size?

  "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"

-- 
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
Daemon News Magazine in your snail-mail! http://magazine.daemonnews.org/

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27  0:37:48 2001
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Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server) 
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> 
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> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
> > [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
> > This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
> > stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
> > size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
> 
> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.

A performance issue ?  Surely you've misspelt ``reliability'' ?

> Greg
> --
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers

-- 
Brian <brian@Awfulhak.org>                        <brian@[uk.]FreeBSD.org>
      <http://www.Awfulhak.org>                   <brian@[uk.]OpenBSD.org>
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27  0:41:51 2001
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>,
	dillon@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at  0:05:03 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> * Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> [010326 23:47] wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
>>> [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
>>> This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
>>> stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
>>> size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
>>
>> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
>> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
>> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
>> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
>> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.
>>
>>> can we safely use <150K stripe sizes?
>>
>> Safely, yes.  But as somebody else has observed, you are probably disk
>> I/O bound.  Reducing the stripe size will tend to increase the disk
>> load, though probably not very much if your files are all 4 kB.  I'd
>> go for something like 273 kB stripes.
>
> Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
> be a non optimal stripe size?
>
>   "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"

Only if it can recognize the fact correctly.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27  5:30:15 2001
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Cc: Matt Dillon <dillon@earth.backplane.com>,
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Greg Lehey(grog@lemis.com)@Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:07:09PM +0930:
> One of the reasons this question came up is because dumps weren't
> enabled.  If they had been, we would have seen the problem.  That's
> why I'd recommend at least as much swap as memory, even if it doesn't
> get touched.
when i recall it right, you need size of mem + 1 block for the header,
right?

/k

-- 
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> Masturbation is better than nothing.
> Therefore, Masturbation is better than Sex.
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 14:59:46 2001
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From: "Brandon Gale" <bgale@targetnet.com>
To: "Greg Lehey" <grog@lemis.com>,
	"Alfred Perlstein" <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>,
	<dillon@FreeBSD.ORG>, <fs@FreeBSD.ORG>, <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: RE: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 17:59:23 -0500
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:> Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
:> be a non optimal stripe size?
:>
:>   "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"
:
:Only if it can recognize the fact correctly.

How about even having vinum recommend something?

Brandon


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 15:15:49 2001
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From: "David O'Brien" <TrimYourCc@NUXI.com>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:16:53PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
> subdisk,

The change I made to newfs to make "-c 22" the default, removes this
power-of-two issue.  Correct?


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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:20:41 2001
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From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>
Cc: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>,
	dillon@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at  9:39:36 +0100, Brian Somers wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
>>> [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
>>> This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
>>> stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
>>> size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
>>
>> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
>> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
>> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
>> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
>> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.
>
> A performance issue ?  Surely you've misspelt ``reliability'' ?

I don't see a reliability issue here.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:21:48 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:51:43 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brandon Gale <bgale@targetnet.com>
Cc: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>,
	"Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG,
	fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at 17:59:23 -0500, Brandon Gale wrote:
>>> Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
>>> be a non optimal stripe size?
>>>
>>>   "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"
>>
>> Only if it can recognize the fact correctly.
>
> How about even having vinum recommend something?

I'm open to code suggestions.  The problem is that by the time you
create it, it's too late.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:22:36 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:52:30 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: fs@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
Message-ID: <20010328095230.O1161@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <20010320111144.A51924@peorth.iteration.net> <20010327171653.G1161@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010327151517.A91684@dragon.nuxi.com>
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On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at 15:15:17 -0800, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2001 at 05:16:53PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
>> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
>> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
>> subdisk,
>
> The change I made to newfs to make "-c 22" the default, removes this
> power-of-two issue.  Correct?

It certainly changes it.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:36:37 2001
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>,
	"Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG,
	fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@Awfulhak.org
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server) 
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> 
   of "Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:50:34 +0930." <20010328095034.M1161@wantadilla.lemis.com> 
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> On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at  9:39:36 +0100, Brian Somers wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
> >>> [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
> >>> This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
> >>> stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
> >>> size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
> >>
> >> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
> >> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
> >> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
> >> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
> >> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.
> >
> > A performance issue ?  Surely you've misspelt ``reliability'' ?
> 
> I don't see a reliability issue here.

I believe the only issue with having all your superblocks on one disk 
is a reliability thing - if you lose the disk you lose your 
superblock(s).  Surely the only performance problem would be that of 
locality - if you use the partition a bit, that ``problem'' should go 
away though.

> Greg
> --
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers

-- 
Brian <brian@Awfulhak.org>                        <brian@[uk.]FreeBSD.org>
      <http://www.Awfulhak.org>                   <brian@[uk.]OpenBSD.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !



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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:39:12 2001
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:38:33 -0800
From: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc: Brandon Gale <bgale@targetnet.com>,
	"Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG,
	fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
Message-ID: <20010327163833.O9431@fw.wintelcom.net>
References: <20010327181141.H1161@wantadilla.lemis.com> <BBEFKIOENNNDEEHMOMHOKECIHCAA.brandon@targetnet.com> <20010328095143.N1161@wantadilla.lemis.com>
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* Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> [010327 16:21] wrote:
> On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at 17:59:23 -0500, Brandon Gale wrote:
> >>> Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
> >>> be a non optimal stripe size?
> >>>
> >>>   "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"
> >>
> >> Only if it can recognize the fact correctly.
> >
> > How about even having vinum recommend something?
> 
> I'm open to code suggestions.  The problem is that by the time you
> create it, it's too late.

That's not true.

By the time you've newfs'd it, stored data on it and deployed
it into production it's too late.

Right after you make the volume is a good time to print out a little
banner telling them to check the docs, something like:
  "WARNING: selecting a stripe size can be tricky, you really should
   see the vinum(8) manpage specifically the section about FOO for
   suggestions for optimal stripe sizes."

Or something like that.  You're the writer Grog, you should be better
at this than us. :)

-- 
-Alfred Perlstein - [bright@wintelcom.net|alfred@freebsd.org]
Daemon News Magazine in your snail-mail! http://magazine.daemonnews.org/

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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:53: 9 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:22:59 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>
Cc: Brandon Gale <bgale@targetnet.com>,
	"Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG,
	fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
Message-ID: <20010328102259.B92853@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <20010327181141.H1161@wantadilla.lemis.com> <BBEFKIOENNNDEEHMOMHOKECIHCAA.brandon@targetnet.com> <20010328095143.N1161@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20010327163833.O9431@fw.wintelcom.net>
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Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
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On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at 16:38:33 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> * Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> [010327 16:21] wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at 17:59:23 -0500, Brandon Gale wrote:
>>>>> Do you think it'd be worth it to have vinum carp about what may
>>>>> be a non optimal stripe size?
>>>>>
>>>>>   "Warning N is probably a bad idea for a stripe size, see docs"
>>>>
>>>> Only if it can recognize the fact correctly.
>>>
>>> How about even having vinum recommend something?
>>
>> I'm open to code suggestions.  The problem is that by the time you
>> create it, it's too late.
>
> That's not true.

For a certain definition of "too late", maybe not.

> By the time you've newfs'd it, stored data on it and deployed it
> into production it's too late.

It's certainly later then.

> Right after you make the volume is a good time to print out a little
> banner telling them to check the docs, something like:
>
>   "WARNING: selecting a stripe size can be tricky, you really should
>    see the vinum(8) manpage specifically the section about FOO for
>    suggestions for optimal stripe sizes."

Yes, but then you've already selected your stripe size.  About the
best I can think of would be a utility function which calculates the
stripe size based on the number of subdisks, the total size and the
cylinder group size.  You could then do something like

 plex org striped

without the stripe size, and let vinum(8) decide the stripe size for
you.  As I said, code submissions welcome :-)

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Tue Mar 27 16:54:53 2001
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Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:24:45 +0930
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Brian Somers <brian@Awfulhak.org>
Cc: "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@peorth.iteration.net>,
	dillon@FreeBSD.ORG, fs@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Vinum stripe size (was: tuning a VERY heavily (30.0) loaded server)
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Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia
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On Wednesday, 28 March 2001 at  1:40:27 +0100, Brian Somers wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 27 March 2001 at  9:39:36 +0100, Brian Somers wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 20 March 2001 at 11:11:44 -0600, Michael C . Wu wrote:
>>>>> [Lengthy email, bear with me please, it is quite interesting.
>>>>> This box averages 30.0 load with no problems.]
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> Average file size is about 4K.  /home/bbsusers* is on a vinum
>>>>> stripe'd volume with 3 Ultra160 9G 10000RPM drives on sym0 at stripe
>>>>> size 256K,  Greg: I know this should be a prime number,
>>>>
>>>> No, there's no requirement for it to be a prime number.  The only
>>>> problem is that with 32 MB cylinder groups and a power of two stripe
>>>> size and subdisk count, you end up with all the superblocks on one
>>>> subdisk, which is a performance issue.  Choose the stripe size so that
>>>> the superblocks are roughly evenly distributed.
>>>
>>> A performance issue ?  Surely you've misspelt ``reliability'' ?
>>
>> I don't see a reliability issue here.
>
> I believe the only issue with having all your superblocks on one disk
> is a reliability thing - if you lose the disk you lose your
> superblock(s). 

Ah.  Lose part of your file system and you lose your file system.
Vinum has other ways of making up for that problem.

> Surely the only performance problem would be that of locality - if
> you use the partition a bit, that ``problem'' should go away though.

No, under normal circumstances all metadata updates would go to the
same disk, since they're just behind the superblock.

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Wed Mar 28  5:25: 3 2001
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From owner-freebsd-fs  Fri Mar 30  6:56:31 2001
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Sir,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am enclosing herewith brochure of BAPS =
Swaminarayan Sanstha=20
for your kind consideration. We are from one of the&nbsp; Centre - =
Bhavnagar=20
forwarding herewith our&nbsp;genune request for your valuable donation =
for this=20
work. As you know that Bhavnagar is a one of the earthquake affected =
centre in=20
which we are having experience of earthquake tremours more than 500=20
since&nbsp;last 8 months. These tremours inspired us to work for =
earthquake=20
affected people. From Bhavnagar centre we have dispatched huge quantity =
of all=20
the required materials. Now&nbsp;earthquake affected area require =
permanant=20
housing facilities. To provide such type of facilities we are requesting =
you to=20
send your valuable donation to one of the best and leading NGO of the =
world and=20
oblige us.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanking you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Yours faithfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hiren&nbsp;Trivedi&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
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