From owner-freebsd-realtime Sun Sep 30 8: 1:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from mail.shell-server.com (24-109-11-245.ivideon.com [24.109.11.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D61137B409 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 08:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12839 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2001 15:01:41 -0000 Received: from betsy.shell-server.com (HELO there) (192.168.3.2) by erin-rl0.shell-server.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2001 15:01:41 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bart Kus Message-Id: <200109300958.44992@EO> To: realtime@freebsd.org Subject: Ping? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:02:52 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anybody out there? The mail archives would suggest no. --Bart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Sun Sep 30 10:39: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from meta.lo-res.org (meta.lo-res.org [195.58.189.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5C737B408 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from there (slghcx@www.fastforward.at [62.116.8.2]) by meta.lo-res.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8UHcnw02586; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:38:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from aaron@lo-res.org) Message-Id: <200109301738.f8UHcnw02586@meta.lo-res.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: aaron To: Bart Kus , realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ping? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:38:38 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] References: <200109300958.44992@EO> In-Reply-To: <200109300958.44992@EO> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 30 September 2001 17:02, Bart Kus wrote: > Is anybody out there? The mail archives would suggest no. > Well, I am lurking around :) a. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7t1ie6bxke2EQxE0RAgI9AJ9r6SJ90YLpoA5j79TVhfHjcUaR7gCfYzC5 84EogWYNnRNacQ5nwpkII9Q= =hNd2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Sun Sep 30 12:12:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from meta.lo-res.org (meta.lo-res.org [195.58.189.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98AD37B403 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from there (uxoxqv@www.fastforward.at [62.116.8.2]) by meta.lo-res.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8UJCkw02970; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:12:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from aaron@lo-res.org) Message-Id: <200109301912.f8UJCkw02970@meta.lo-res.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: aaron To: Bart Kus Subject: Re: Ping? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 21:12:32 +0200 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] References: <200109300958.44992@EO> <200109301738.f8UHcnw02586@meta.lo-res.org> <200109301352.3464@EO> In-Reply-To: <200109301352.3464@EO> Cc: realtime@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 30 September 2001 20:54, you wrote: > On Sunday 30 September 2001 12:38, you wrote: > > Well, I am lurking around :) > > It seems the bulk of my concerns have come out in hackers@freebsd.org. If > you like you can browse the messages there and maybe tell me if bsd CAN > indeed give me satisfactory RT response within, say, 100us max? Am I > totally dreaming? > hm, did not find it there. but 100usec seems very far fetched. Even with posix realtime extension. I assume you want something like: do smthg wait x microsecs do smthg problem is: wait x microsecs never waits x microsecs but almost always more. even with realtime priority / -signals / whatever. that's at least my experience. If I am wrong please correct me. aaron. > --Bart -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7t26j6bxke2EQxE0RAsXmAJ9Tc4UoR/jYlHkuquwyLuUWCq/QYQCfSh0U lwVa0Z44q/9kYUiSNTdCDwE= =/RPJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Sun Sep 30 18: 6:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from mtbaker.tfm.com (mtbaker.tfm.com [192.231.224.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F9137B408 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from db@localhost) by mtbaker.tfm.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f9115oJ10623; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:05:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Diane Bruce Message-Id: <200110010105.f9115oJ10623@mtbaker.tfm.com> Subject: Re: Ping? In-Reply-To: <200109301738.f8UHcnw02586@meta.lo-res.org> "from aaron at Sep 30, 2001 07:38:38 pm" To: aaron Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Bart Kus , realtime@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL78 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org aaron says: > On Sunday 30 September 2001 17:02, Bart Kus wrote: > > Is anybody out there? The mail archives would suggest no. > > > > Well, I am lurking around :) As am I -- Diane Bruce, http://www.db.net/~db db@db.net --- I got bored with the last witty aphorism. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Mon Oct 1 2:23:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from seaholm.caamora.com.au (seaholm.caamora.com.au [203.7.226.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5522D37B40E for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 02:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon@localhost) by seaholm.caamora.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f919JT207715; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:19:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <20011001191928.34544@caamora.com.au> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:19:28 +1000 From: jonathan michaels Cc: realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ping? References: <200109300958.44992@EO> <200109301738.f8UHcnw02586@meta.lo-res.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <200109301738.f8UHcnw02586@meta.lo-res.org>; from aaron on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 07:38:38PM +0200 Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 07:38:38PM +0200, aaron wrote: > On Sunday 30 September 2001 17:02, Bart Kus wrote: > > Is anybody out there? The mail archives would suggest no. > Well, I am lurking around :) me too ... i'm an escapee from teh school of realtime, faculty qnx and os9. though its been so long now that i would have to start from scratch (and relearn teh whole lot) if i were to do anything serious, or trivial for that matter. what sort of 'realtime' projects were/are invisioned for freebsd ??? from what i can see unless one rewrites teh kernel as a whole freebsd is not good for much 'realtime' stuff other that what is called (used to be called) soft realtime. the other realtime, 'real' real time so to speak is required for most of teh ag resources work that i dabbled in, back in teh early eighties through to teh begining of the 1990's when i (abruptly) stoped going forward in my career. medical reasons that skyrocketed me out of teh workpool and almost teh gene pool ... a genetic disorder i was born with manifested itself and i became a permanently unemployable disabled person. sorry i don't know how to say invalid pensioner in american social security speak. with regards and best wishes to all jonathan -- ================================================================ Jonathan Michaels http://repaired.reallllly.soon.now PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 suffering construction anxiety ============================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Mon Oct 1 3:48: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.5.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46B3937B40C for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 03:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monmouth.com (ool-18bc5dd1.dyn.optonline.net [24.188.93.209]) by mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.0 Patch 2 (built Dec 14 2000)) with ESMTP id <0GKI00FHYWMNG7@mta8.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for realtime@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 01 Oct 2001 06:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 06:48:39 -0400 From: Pat Villani Subject: Re: Ping? To: Bart Kus Cc: realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3BB84A07.3BCD6C97@monmouth.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <200109300958.44992@EO> Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I think there are quite a few folks here, but activity is nil. I have a broader question. What is the demand for a real-time UNIX-like operating system? I know there are companies such as QNX and OS9 with popular products, which I have experience with both, but my observations have been that demand for others has not been high. In fact, I get the feeling that there has been a decline in demand for this type of operating system. This may seem somewhat off topic, but it questions the value of a real-time FreeBSD project. It may help explain why traffic here is non-existent. Pat Bart Kus wrote: > Is anybody out there? The mail archives would suggest no. > > --Bart > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Mon Oct 1 5:29:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from meta.lo-res.org (meta.lo-res.org [195.58.189.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AD537B409 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 05:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (aaron@localhost) by meta.lo-res.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f91CTLh06217; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:29:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from aaron@meta.lo-res.org) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:29:21 +0200 (CEST) From: aaron To: Pat Villani Cc: Bart Kus , realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ping? In-Reply-To: <3BB84A07.3BCD6C97@monmouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Pat Villani wrote: > Actually, I think there are quite a few folks here, but activity is nil. > > I have a broader question. What is the demand for a real-time UNIX-like > operating system? I know there are companies such as QNX and OS9 with > popular products, which I have experience with both, but my observations > have been that demand for others has not been high. In fact, I get the > feeling that there has been a decline in demand for this type of > operating system. This may seem somewhat off topic, but it questions > the value of a real-time FreeBSD project. It may help explain why > traffic here is non-existent. Well I guess it would not hurt to have some things like low-latency patches, etc. (linux has that after all :))) I am sure it would make *BSD more useful. recently I had to program a sound "pacemaker" (i.e. a heartbeat .wav is sent to the soundcard regularly). So this is not real-time, BUT: since the rate was meant to change constantly (ranging from 33 bpm to 120), I could not use /dev/rtc. Neither did the usleep() and nanosleep() function calls give me the precision which I wanted. signals were useless. Now some of you might wonder why I mention that sound not-even realtime simple project: because with sound output you can immediately feel if something is happening 100ms to late :) So, to sum it up: maybe its not a priority for freebsd but low latency things would sure make freebsd become more of a desktop multimedia OS (seems we are going in that direction anyway with all the KDE great stuff). Linux is going that way, why should not freebsd to some extent? --> some realtime capabilities would be great. greetings, aaron. --- COSHER = Completely Open Source, Headers, Engineering, and Research [ (C) Matt Blaze I believe ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Mon Oct 1 13:55: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from seaholm.caamora.com.au (seaholm.caamora.com.au [203.7.226.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7857237B406 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 13:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jon@localhost) by seaholm.caamora.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f91Kscx11475; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:54:38 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <20011002065438.25293@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:54:38 +1000 From: jonathan michaels To: aaron Cc: Pat Villani , Bart Kus , realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ping? References: <3BB84A07.3BCD6C97@monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from aaron on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 02:29:21PM +0200 Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 02:29:21PM +0200, aaron wrote: > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Pat Villani wrote: > > > Actually, I think there are quite a few folks here, but activity is nil. > > > > I have a broader question. What is the demand for a real-time UNIX-like > > operating system? I know there are companies such as QNX and OS9 with > > popular products, which I have experience with both, but my observations > > have been that demand for others has not been high. In fact, I get the > > feeling that there has been a decline in demand for this type of > > operating system. This may seem somewhat off topic, but it questions > > the value of a real-time FreeBSD project. It may help explain why > > traffic here is non-existent. > > Well I guess it would not hurt to have some things like low-latency > patches, etc. (linux has that after all :))) > > I am sure it would make *BSD more useful. recently I had to program a > sound "pacemaker" (i.e. a heartbeat .wav is sent to the soundcard > regularly). So this is not real-time, BUT: since the rate was meant > to change constantly (ranging from 33 bpm to 120), I could not use > /dev/rtc. Neither did the usleep() and nanosleep() function calls give me > the precision which I wanted. signals were useless. > > Now some of you might wonder why I mention that sound not-even realtime > simple project: because with sound output you can immediately feel if > something is happening 100ms to late :) > > So, to sum it up: maybe its not a priority for freebsd but low latency > things would sure make freebsd become more of a desktop multimedia OS > (seems we are going in that direction anyway with all the KDE great > stuff). Linux is going that way, why should not freebsd to some > extent? --> some realtime capabilities would be great. now that qnx has 'embraced' the "open software" movement and flung its doors open and virtually given away most of the qnx 'sources' and the other mob that donated its sources for integration into (as i understand what i've seen on this question) openbsd. maybe, freebsd as a whole would be better sticking what i "dose best" that being a "multimedia desktop operating system" come server platform. i say this as i've looked at the differences in qnx and os9, and the 'realtime' linux/freebsd offerings ... apart from the lack of 'reliability' which only can be gotten by loging the historical hours. from this aspect the real realtimers have already stolen the march from the "johnny come-lately's" so to speak. has anyone tried freebsd in a 'soft' realtime application, some war stories would be appreciated. i've got sort of a 'report' come recommendation to write about platform suitability and do not really know about how much realtime capability is built into freebsd (kernel, in particular). from the people that i used to know, they all say to push the qnx barrow ... is it worth looking at freebsd in the soft realtime applications environment ? especially given the 'lack' of development in the core areas that would be needed for sustainable realtime operations, as seen from my perspective (which may be clouded by many years of absence from this particular mines coal face). with warm regards jonathan -- ================================================================ Jonathan Michaels http://www.caamora.com.au PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 suffering construction anxiety ============================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-realtime Mon Oct 1 14:17: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-realtime@freebsd.org Received: from mail.shell-server.com (24-109-11-245.ivideon.com [24.109.11.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 38A9437B40A for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19014 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 19:30:15 -0000 Received: from betsy.shell-server.com (HELO betsy) (192.168.3.2) by erin-rl0.shell-server.com with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 19:30:15 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:31:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Bart Kus To: realtime@freebsd.org Subject: Wow, life! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-realtime@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The reason I asked, was because I am fed up with my damn remote control reciever not working (one of those cheap hewlett packard models that toggles DCD as it detects IR). Windows has drivers, Linux has drivers, FreeBSD has nothing. (Diane Bruce: Hi! You might remember this rant of mine from a while back :) ) But, I did actually find something which almost does the job - PPS. (RFC2783) It's implemented in sio.c, but stops short of being useful (does not provide blocking). So I figure it must either provide blocking, or return a list of events instead of just 1. But that'd break the API in the RFC...thankfully the RFC is not a standard yet. So as it stands, FBSD is still incapable of dealing with remote controls. --Bart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-realtime" in the body of the message