From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 3:24:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from plasma.thetac.com (plasma.thetac.com [203.102.212.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D6BE737B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 03:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1739 invoked from network); 11 Feb 2001 09:26:48 -0000 Received: from station01.thetac.com (203.102.212.238) by plasma.thetac.com with SMTP; 11 Feb 2001 09:26:48 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010211221904.022c0448@mail.thetac.com> X-Sender: ma000001@mail.thetac.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:24:40 +1100 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG From: Gary Barnden Subject: Booting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1210639487==_.ALT" Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --=====================_1210639487==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All Problem: It is near impossible to have two FreeBSD partitions on a single HDD and boot between them ( i say this from the point of view that it is impossible to maintain this configuration when doing an upgrade on the Second FBSD Partition). So i was wondering if anyone out there has booted PicoBSD from anyting other than a FreeBSD partition ie DOS, ext2fs etc Thanks Kind regards Gary Barnden (Network Engineer) _______________________________________ Braenet Pty Ltd Corporate Internet Solutions A "Cisco Enabled Regional ISP" 1/59-61 Burrows Road Alexandria NSW 2015 Ph: 1300-368-081 Fax: (02) 9565-1848 Email: g.barnden@braenet.com.au Enquiries: info@braenet.com.au Web: http://www.braenet.com.au --=====================_1210639487==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello All

Problem:

It is near impossible to have two FreeBSD partitions on a single HDD and boot between them ( i say this from the point of view that it is impossible to maintain this configuration when doing an upgrade on the Second FBSD Partition). So i was wondering if anyone out there has booted PicoBSD from anyting other than a FreeBSD partition ie DOS, ext2fs etc

Thanks

Kind regards

Gary Barnden (Network Engineer)
_______________________________________
Braenet Pty Ltd
Corporate Internet Solutions
A "Cisco Enabled Regional ISP"
1/59-61 Burrows Road
Alexandria NSW 2015
Ph: 1300-368-081 Fax: (02) 9565-1848
Email: g.barnden@braenet.com.au
Enquiries: info@braenet.com.au
Web: http://www.braenet.com.au --=====================_1210639487==_.ALT-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 5:55:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (unknown [213.162.128.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC4137B491 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:55:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id E00EC2DC0F; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:01:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CA28B7817; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:56:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A2110E1C for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:56:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:56:27 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Minix sh Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FYI, I resurrected tinyware/msh - it was deleted before due to licensing problems, but since then the licanse has changed... Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 16:53: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAAD37B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 6137D57650; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:53:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:53:10 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minix sh Message-ID: <20010211185310.E19845@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-small@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from abial@webgiro.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:27PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:27PM +0100, Andrzej Bialecki scribbled: | I resurrected tinyware/msh - it was deleted before due to licensing | problems, but since then the licanse has changed... I remember promising to make msh a port if you could help me find the source. Do you have patches for FreeBSD and the source now? The promise still stands. P.S. Warner: That goes for your make-flash.sh thingy too. :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 16:58:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC78637B401; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id CC8A657650; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:58:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:58:52 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: "Forrest W. Christian" Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org, dillon@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions Message-ID: <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , "Forrest W. Christian" , freebsd-small@freebsd.org, dillon@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from forrestc@imach.com on Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:13:24AM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The general idea is that many parts of FreeBSD sometimes count on having swap and such. Can you use some part of the flash disk for swap? i.e. if (no_swap == TRUE) {bad_things_happen(); return ENOTVERYGOOD;} On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:13:24AM -0700, Forrest W. Christian scribbled: | I asked this (phrased differently) over in -hackers as I thought the | people who would know were likely among that crowd. I didn't get a | response, and in retrospect, it's probably better asked here anyways. | | I'm currently working on a system with a rather large flash disk, Limited | RAM, and absolutely no swap. | | Some background first: | | The FreeBSD VM subsystem in it's "normal" state understands that if it | loads a program off of disk and then gets tight on memory that it can free | the memory consumed by the non-changed code of the program without | swapping to disk as it knows that it can just re-load it from the disk | where it found it. | | In my system, since I don't have swap, and limited memory, I would like to | ensure that the above described piece of the VM subsystem continues to | work. That way, it can effectively "run from flash" if necessary. | However, as memory is (always) tight in this environment, I would | also like to remove the SWAPPING code (as opposed to the "free" code | described above) from the kernel. I believe there is a NO_SWAP option in LINT/NOTES. However, I remember Peter Wemm stating in a certain forum that do such things is BAD(TM). | So, my question was what, if anything, does "options NO_SWAPPING" (or | whatever the exact option is) do in regards to the vm "free" chunk of | code? Same thing as you want. | I'd also like to hear people's experience with running with and without | the two swap-related kernel variables turned on without swap. I realize The performance decreases drastically with no VM on. I am not the VM expert, but I think it is true. I have CC'ed Matt Dillon, our VM guru, just to make sure. :) | that the general consensus is to "enable" both delay and disable swap | pagesouts. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 17: 2:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE6B37B401; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from billy-club.village.org (billy-club.village.org [10.0.0.3]) by rover.village.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1C12Xh14816; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:02:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@billy-club.village.org) Received: from billy-club.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by billy-club.village.org (8.11.1/8.8.3) with ESMTP id f1C10AE04904; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:00:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200102120100.f1C10AE04904@billy-club.village.org> To: "Michael C . Wu" Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions Cc: "Forrest W. Christian" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:58:52 CST." <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> References: <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:00:10 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: : The general idea is that many parts of FreeBSD sometimes count on : having swap and such. Can you use some part of the flash disk for : swap? : i.e. if (no_swap == TRUE) {bad_things_happen(); return ENOTVERYGOOD;} NO YOU CANNOT SWAP TO FLASH. It will wear the part out too quickly if you try. We've been running off of FLASH with no swap for the better part of a year and nothing bad has happened to us. We make sure, however, that we put as much RAM into these boxes as we can to avoid the low memory situations that can lead to problems. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 17: 9:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4161237B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f1C19DY01509; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:09:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:09:13 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200102120109.f1C19DY01509@earth.backplane.com> To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: "Forrest W. Christian" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions References: <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :The general idea is that many parts of FreeBSD sometimes count on :having swap and such. Can you use some part of the flash disk for :swap? :i.e. if (no_swap == TRUE) {bad_things_happen(); return ENOTVERYGOOD;} Swapping to flash is not a good idea. Flash devices have a limited number of rewrite cycles before they die. The swap system assumes that it can swap things in and out regularly. :| In my system, since I don't have swap, and limited memory, I would like to :| ensure that the above described piece of the VM subsystem continues to :| work. That way, it can effectively "run from flash" if necessary. :| However, as memory is (always) tight in this environment, I would :| also like to remove the SWAPPING code (as opposed to the "free" code :| described above) from the kernel. : :I believe there is a NO_SWAP option in LINT/NOTES. However, I remember :Peter Wemm stating in a certain forum that do such things is BAD(TM). The swapping capability is heavily integrated into most of the kernel. Removing the removable pieces is not going to gain you much in the way of space. :| I'd also like to hear people's experience with running with and without :| the two swap-related kernel variables turned on without swap. I realize : :The performance decreases drastically with no VM on. I am not the :VM expert, but I think it is true. I have CC'ed Matt Dillon, our :VM guru, just to make sure. :) :-- :+------------------------------------------------------------------+ :| keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | It depends what kind of memory pressure you are under. It is possible to operate without swap if you are extremely careful in regards to the amount of memory you 'dirty'. What I would recommend for anyone running a SWAPless kernel for a turnkey application is to either compile *ALL* programs -static, or try to collapse all the shared libraries into a single shared library. Even though -static increases the size of the binary image, it will actually *REDUCE* the number of pages the kernel dirties in memory when loading the program (e.g. because the kernel does not have to mess around with relocations of library calls). And, even though the RSS may be slightly higher, it will be made up of more clean pages. The kernel has no problem freeing up clean pages (backed by the original binary images in the flash memory), whereas without swap the kernel has no way to free up dirty pages. I also strongly recommend running with the 'H' malloc.conf option (see 'man malloc'). Beyond that, you have to be very, very, very careful in how you write the programs that will run under such a system. Remember, clean pages are essentially free, dirty pages cost memory. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 17:34:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from unlimited.net (mail.unlimited.net [209.142.2.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A7537B401; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from unlimited.net (209-142-4-28.stk.inreach.net [209.142.4.28]) by unlimited.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1C1FS424283; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:15:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3A873E82.D61F7074@unlimited.net> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:38:10 -0800 From: John Oram X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , "Forrest W. Christian" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, dillon@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions References: <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> <200102120100.f1C10AE04904@billy-club.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner said: "we put as much RAM into these boxes as we can to avoid the low memory situations that can lead to problems." How much RAM are you talking about - what are the minimum and recommended level based on your experiences... John Oram Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> "Michael C . Wu" writes: > : The general idea is that many parts of FreeBSD sometimes count on > : having swap and such. Can you use some part of the flash disk for > : swap? > : i.e. if (no_swap == TRUE) {bad_things_happen(); return ENOTVERYGOOD;} > > NO YOU CANNOT SWAP TO FLASH. It will wear the part out too quickly if > you try. > > We've been running off of FLASH with no swap for the better part of a > year and nothing bad has happened to us. We make sure, however, that > we put as much RAM into these boxes as we can to avoid the low memory > situations that can lead to problems. > > Warner > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 17:51:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF0937B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:51:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from billy-club.village.org (billy-club.village.org [10.0.0.3]) by rover.village.org (8.11.2/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f1C1prh15040; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:51:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@billy-club.village.org) Received: from billy-club.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by billy-club.village.org (8.11.1/8.8.3) with ESMTP id f1C1nVE05384; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:49:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <200102120149.f1C1nVE05384@billy-club.village.org> To: John Oram Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:38:10 PST." <3A873E82.D61F7074@unlimited.net> References: <3A873E82.D61F7074@unlimited.net> <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> <200102120100.f1C10AE04904@billy-club.village.org> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:49:31 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <3A873E82.D61F7074@unlimited.net> John Oram writes: : Warner said: "we put as much RAM into these boxes as we can to avoid the : low memory situations that can lead to problems." : : How much RAM are you talking about - what are the minimum and : recommended level based on your experiences... We've run as lean as used RAM + 1M, but we're now running at used RAM + 10M or so due to cleanup of our code. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 18:41:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B160637B491 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f1C2fX401875; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:41:33 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200102120241.f1C2fX401875@earth.backplane.com> To: John Oram Cc: Warner Losh , "Michael C . Wu" , "Forrest W. Christian" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions References: <20010211185852.F19845@peorth.iteration.net> <200102120100.f1C10AE04904@billy-club.village.org> <3A873E82.D61F7074@unlimited.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :low memory situations that can lead to problems." : :How much RAM are you talking about - what are the minimum and :recommended level based on your experiences... : :John Oram John, it's going to depend heavily on what you intend to use the box for... on what you are running on it. The only person who can figure out how much ram you will need for the box to operate smoothly is you. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 19: 0:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from workhorse.iMach.com (workhorse.iMach.com [206.127.77.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBCC37B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:00:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (forrestc@localhost) by workhorse.iMach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22458; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Forrest W. Christian" To: Matt Dillon Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions In-Reply-To: <200102120109.f1C19DY01509@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matt: You were who I was going to write to next, since it looks like you're one of the people who get their hands dirty in the vm portion kernel on the a regular basis. Thanks for the responses so far :) Of course, I have a few more questions. On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: > What I would recommend for anyone running a SWAPless kernel for a turnkey > application is to either compile *ALL* programs -static, or try to > collapse all the shared libraries into a single shared library. In my instance, I crunchgen everything into one huge binary and hard link the names... Which now I think about it brings up another question, but I'll mention it below. The reason that I got thinking about this is that my crunchgen binary is getting rather large, and I'm sure that there are clean pages which may or may not be in use at a given time. I'd rather it free the clean pages than blow up due to lack of memory. > Even though -static increases the size of the binary image, it will > actually *REDUCE* the number of pages the kernel dirties in memory > when loading the program (e.g. because the kernel does not have to > mess around with relocations of library calls). And, even though > the RSS may be slightly higher, it will be made up of more clean pages. Assuming you have one big homogenous program which does everything you want (including init), and hard link multiple references to that one inode, does the kernel understand that it should share the code? Or better put, does the kernel actually look at the block/inode number on disk when it tries to figure out what it can and cannot share/free/etc? One additional kinda-related question.. In traditional PicoBSD, a memory disk is used to store the code which is actually copied off of the floppy. In this case, it would be cool if FreeBSD understood that the code actually resided in memory, and didn't make a second copy of it. Do you know if this is by chance the case? If it is, I'm seriously impressed with whoever wrote that code...I'm still thinking about the cans (cases?) of worms that could be. > The kernel has no problem freeing up clean pages (backed by the original > binary images in the flash memory), whereas without swap the kernel has > no way to free up dirty pages. Ok, then this brings us back to the following options: options NO_SWAPPING (in the kernel config file) vm.swap_enabled (sysctl) vm.defer_swapspace_pageouts vm.disable_swapspace_pageouts (and probably a whole slew of others). In regards to options NO_SWAPPING, lint says it removes the swapping code from the kernel. From the looks of things, it takes a *LOT* of the VM subsystem with it. I realize there is some controversy over if this is safe or not, but past experience shows that it doesn't seem to make anything less stable. The question is whether freeing a clean page is considered swapping in this context, or whether it just means actual swapping of a dirty page. For the others, I mainly want to make sure that they generally don't really matter in the context of not even having a swap partition on disk. Are the sysctl options *really* documented anywhere? > I also strongly recommend running with the 'H' malloc.conf option > (see 'man malloc'). Am I reading the man page correctly that the way to set this is: ln -s H /etc/malloc.conf > Beyond that, you have to be very, very, very careful in how you write > the programs that will run under such a system. Remember, clean pages > are essentially free, dirty pages cost memory. I have a feeling that the next stage of this project is nailing memory leaks..... - Forrest W. Christian (forrestc@imach.com) AC7DE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- iMach, Ltd., P.O. Box 5749, Helena, MT 59604 http://www.imach.com Solutions for your high-tech problems. (406)-442-6648 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 22:11:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E3D37B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f1C6AfO02706; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:10:41 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200102120610.f1C6AfO02706@earth.backplane.com> To: "Forrest W. Christian" Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :In my instance, I crunchgen everything into one huge binary and hard link :the names... Which now I think about it brings up another question, but :I'll mention it below. : :The reason that I got thinking about this is that my crunchgen binary is :getting rather large, and I'm sure that there are clean pages which may or :may not be in use at a given time. I'd rather it free the clean pages :than blow up due to lack of memory. That sounds reasonable. I'm assuming you statically link it as well. There is a trade off here. If you have one big whopping static binary you will get a good memory footprint, but if you combine a lot of programs in the crunch you will wind up bringing in most of libc anyway. On the positive side, there's just one copy of it. On the negative side, any given program instance will be accessing procedures strewn all over the image and tend to cause most of the link library portion of the image to be in-core. The other alternative is to statically link the individual binaries separately. This will result in a larger amount of space taken up in the flash, but if you are only running one or two binaries predominantly the memory footprint will be excellent because the memory footprint for the 'idle' programs or the ones not being run will be zip. Most UNIX systems, including FreeBSD, have no problem throwing away clean pages which are not being used at any given moment. I don't think you have to worry about the clean pages. It's the dirty ones that are the gotcha (which is why static linking is better then using shared libraries which require run-time glueing). :Assuming you have one big homogenous program which does everything you :want (including init), and hard link multiple references to that one :inode, does the kernel understand that it should share the code? Or :better put, does the kernel actually look at the block/inode number on :disk when it tries to figure out what it can and cannot share/free/etc? Yes. The kernel will do the right thing. The kernel caches by vnode. Hardlinks are nothing more then multiple directory reference to the same vnode. :One additional kinda-related question.. In traditional PicoBSD, a memory :disk is used to store the code which is actually copied off of the :floppy. In this case, it would be cool if FreeBSD understood that the :code actually resided in memory, and didn't make a second copy of it. Do :you know if this is by chance the case? If it is, I'm seriously impressed :with whoever wrote that code...I'm still thinking about the cans :(cases?) of worms that could be. I'm not sure what picobsd is using, but its probably MFS. With MFS every active page will take up 2x the memory and every inactive page will take up 1x the memory (verses no memory if your backing store is some native device, like a flash rom). Compression has the same effect -- if something is compressed on the filesystem, the system eats dirty memory uncompressing it (compression is something that used to work with a.out binaries. I don't think it works for ELF binaries anyway). :> The kernel has no problem freeing up clean pages (backed by the original :> binary images in the flash memory), whereas without swap the kernel has :> no way to free up dirty pages. : :Ok, then this brings us back to the following options: : : options NO_SWAPPING (in the kernel config file) : vm.swap_enabled (sysctl) : vm.defer_swapspace_pageouts : vm.disable_swapspace_pageouts : (and probably a whole slew of others). : :In regards to options NO_SWAPPING, lint says it removes the swapping code :from the kernel. From the looks of things, it takes a *LOT* of the VM :subsystem with it. I realize there is some controversy over if this is :safe or not, but past experience shows that it doesn't seem to make :anything less stable. The question is whether freeing a clean page is :considered swapping in this context, or whether it just means actual :swapping of a dirty page. NO_SWAPPING should be fine, though I don't think I've ever used the option myself so you should make sure that the kernel still operates properly with it set. From my read of the code, NO_SWAPPING removes the pieces of the kernel that deal with deactivating dirty pages and leaves the pieces of the kernel that deal with freeing clean pages. So it should do what you want. :For the others, I mainly want to make sure that they generally don't :really matter in the context of not even having a swap partition on disk. : :Are the sysctl options *really* documented anywhere? Not really. If you set NO_SWAPPING I don't think there is anything special you have to do with the sysctls. It's roughly similar to a system with swapping enabled, but with no swap devices mounted. :> I also strongly recommend running with the 'H' malloc.conf option :> (see 'man malloc'). : :Am I reading the man page correctly that the way to set this is: : : ln -s H /etc/malloc.conf Correct. This will allow the kernel to be more agressive in reusing free()d pages that were previously malloc()'d. Normally such pages are left dirty, even though they are completely free. This option will cause the memory allocator to inform the kernel when such pages can be marked clean. It does not have any significant overhead. :> Beyond that, you have to be very, very, very careful in how you write :> the programs that will run under such a system. Remember, clean pages :> are essentially free, dirty pages cost memory. : :I have a feeling that the next stage of this project is nailing memory :leaks..... : :- Forrest W. Christian (forrestc@imach.com) AC7DE Yes. That's usually the biggest issue. What I recommend is that you wrap malloc() and free() without your own routines. e.g. for all of my projects I have a routine called zalloc() and zfree() (where my zalloc() allocates and zeros the memory, similar to calloc(), but taking only a single number-of-bytes argument like malloc()). In anycase, the real reason to wrap the routines is that then you can have a debug mode that tracks the allocations and frees by source file and line number. /* someheader.h */ #ifdef MEMDEBUG #define zalloc(bytes) _zalloc_debug(bytes, __FILE__, __LINE__) #define zfree(ptr, bytes) _zfree_debug(ptr, bytes, __FILE__, __LINE__) #else #define zalloc _zalloc #define zfree _zfree #endif If you write the wrapper to track the allocations and frees, then install a signal handler on SIGUSR1 or something like that to 'dump' a histogram of the count of the number of allocations made from any given file/line, it makes finding memory leaks really easy. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Feb 11 22:22:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from iguana.aciri.org (iguana.aciri.org [192.150.187.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4901F37B401 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:22:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rizzo@localhost) by iguana.aciri.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1C6Lxv73193; Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:21:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rizzo) From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <200102120621.f1C6Lxv73193@iguana.aciri.org> Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions In-Reply-To: <200102120610.f1C6AfO02706@earth.backplane.com> from Matt Dillon at "Feb 11, 2001 10:10:41 pm" To: dillon@earth.backplane.com (Matt Dillon) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:21:59 -0800 (PST) Cc: forrestc@imach.com, keichii@iteration.net, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > :One additional kinda-related question.. In traditional PicoBSD, a memory > :disk is used to store the code which is actually copied off of the ... > I'm not sure what picobsd is using, but its probably MFS. With MFS every prbably.. the kernel actually has "options MD" and "options MD_ROOT", is there any way to make active but readonly pages consume 1x memory ? cheers luigi ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . ACIRI/ICSI (on leave from Univ. di Pisa) http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ . 1947 Center St, Berkeley CA 94704 Phone: (510) 666 2927 ----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 0:37: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from earth.backplane.com (earth-nat-cw.backplane.com [208.161.114.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C914637B401 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:37:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by earth.backplane.com (8.11.2/8.9.3) id f1C8agr03317; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:36:42 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Dillon Message-Id: <200102120836.f1C8agr03317@earth.backplane.com> To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: forrestc@imach.com, keichii@iteration.net, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions References: <200102120621.f1C6Lxv73193@iguana.aciri.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :> :One additional kinda-related question.. In traditional PicoBSD, a memory :> :disk is used to store the code which is actually copied off of the :... :> I'm not sure what picobsd is using, but its probably MFS. With MFS every : :prbably.. the kernel actually has "options MD" and "options MD_ROOT", :is there any way to make active but readonly pages consume 1x memory ? : : cheers : luigi : :----------------------------------+----------------------------------------- : Luigi RIZZO, luigi@iet.unipi.it . ACIRI/ICSI (on leave from Univ. di Pisa) I think MD will do the right thing. MFS definitely does not. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 1:14:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from workhorse.iMach.com (workhorse.iMach.com [206.127.77.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6117037B401 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (forrestc@localhost) by workhorse.iMach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA23868; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:09:51 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:09:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Forrest W. Christian" To: Matt Dillon Cc: "Michael C . Wu" , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sans-Swap VM Subsystem Questions In-Reply-To: <200102120610.f1C6AfO02706@earth.backplane.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Matt Dillon wrote: > The other alternative is to statically link the individual binaries > separately. This will result in a larger amount of space taken up in > the flash, but if you are only running one or two binaries > predominantly the memory footprint will be excellent because the > memory footprint for the 'idle' programs or the ones not being run > will be zip. In this application (and I'd imagine a lot of the "small" BSD builds), I can probably divide each utility into a couple of sets. There is a chunk of code (such as the equivalent to init, sh, and probably things like inetd, etc.) which will almost 100% of the time be resident. There is yet another chunk of stuff (like ps, ee/vi, etc) which is rarely resident - primarily during interactive sessions which shouldn't happen all that often. Of course, there are also things which may or may not be active depending on the configuration. It sounds like keeping the always-resident (and active) code in a big statically linked binary is probably a good idea, and perhaps moving some of the non-typically ran applications out into their own binary(s) would be good. I can think of at least one or two apps that grab a LOT of libraries and pieces of clib which aren't in use elsewhere which I could easily move out. I do realize that there is a tradeoff, as having two or more statically linked can't share the portions of libc which they share. It's too bad there isn't an optimization flag to ld (or gcc) which somehow optimizes statically linked binaries so that related code (including libraries) are together, and thus lets the paging system be more efficient. > I'm not sure what picobsd is using, but its probably MFS. With MFS > every active page will take up 2x the memory and every inactive page > will take up 1x the memory (verses no memory if your backing store is > some native device, like a flash rom). This is consistent with what I was thinking. I'll have to dig around through "md" and see if it looks like it actually solves this. But since, I'm not running from a ramdisk anymore I probably won't be digging anytime soon ;) > NO_SWAPPING should be fine, though I don't think I've ever used the > option myself so you should make sure that the kernel still operates > properly with it set. AFAIK, NO_SWAPPING doesn't appear to break the kernel (I have at least 4-5 machines out there with it enabled with no problem). Is there a quick and dirty way I can tell if the clean page frees are being done or not? - Forrest W. Christian (forrestc@imach.com) AC7DE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- iMach, Ltd., P.O. Box 5749, Helena, MT 59604 http://www.imach.com Solutions for your high-tech problems. (406)-442-6648 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 1:35:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mimer.webgiro.com (unknown [213.162.128.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8244D37B491 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mimer.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id D5FEC2DC10; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:41:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 25A487817; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:40:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx.webgiro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171C410E1C; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:40:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:40:03 +0100 (CET) From: Andrzej Bialecki To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minix sh In-Reply-To: <20010211185310.E19845@peorth.iteration.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Michael C . Wu wrote: > On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:27PM +0100, Andrzej Bialecki scribbled: > | I resurrected tinyware/msh - it was deleted before due to licensing > | problems, but since then the licanse has changed... > > I remember promising to make msh a port if you could help me > find the source. Do you have patches for FreeBSD and the source now? > The promise still stands. Erhm... Yes, now I remember... :-( Sorry! The sources for msh were already in the tree (though in the Attic), so I thought I'd go this way... Andrzej Bialecki // WebGiro AB, Sweden (http://www.webgiro.com) // ------------------------------------------------------------------- // ------ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. http://www.freebsd.org -------- // --- Small & Embedded FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ ---- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 8:19:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from fermi.cnam.fr (fermi.cnam.fr [163.173.128.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15FAF37B491 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnam.fr (ftp171.cnam.fr [163.173.192.42]) by fermi.cnam.fr (8.8.8/jpm-301097) with ESMTP id RAA07810 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:19:31 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3A880D10.F2BF3722@cnam.fr> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:19:29 +0100 From: RAJOHARISON HANS 17228 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [fr] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 13:33:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from camus.cybercable.fr (camus.cybercable.fr [212.198.0.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DD8537B491 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7087796 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2001 21:33:21 -0000 Received: from d165.dhcp212-231.cybercable.fr (HELO gits.dyndns.org) ([212.198.231.165]) (envelope-sender ) by camus.cybercable.fr (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Feb 2001 21:33:21 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by gits.dyndns.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f1CLXFx08370; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:33:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from clefevre@poboxes.com) To: "Michael C . Wu" Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minix sh References: <20010211185310.E19845@peorth.iteration.net> X-Face: V|+c;4!|B?E%BE^{E6);aI.[<97Zd*>^#%Y5Cxv;%Y[PT-LW3;A:fRrJ8+^k"e7@+30g0YD0*^^3jgyShN7o?a]C la*Zv'5NA,=963bM%J^o]C In-Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu"'s message of "Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:53:10 -0600" From: Cyrille Lefevre Reply-To: clefevre@poboxes.com Mail-Copies-To: never Date: 12 Feb 2001 22:33:09 +0100 Message-ID: <3ddj37u2.fsf@gits.dyndns.org> Lines: 59 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Michael C . Wu" writes: > On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:27PM +0100, Andrzej Bialecki scribbled: > | I resurrected tinyware/msh - it was deleted before due to licensing > | problems, but since then the licanse has changed... > > I remember promising to make msh a port if you could help me > find the source. Do you have patches for FreeBSD and the source now? > The promise still stands. are you interrested by something like this : root@gits:grub/ (ttyp3) [446]# ls /usr/local/minix/bin aal comm head od tar acd compress ic paste tee advent cp id patch term anm cpdir ifdef pathchk termcap ar crc indent pc test arch cron inodes pr tget ascii ctags install prep time ash cut isodir pretty touch asize date isoinfo printenv tr at dd isoread proto traverse atrun decomp16 join pwd treecmp awk dhrystone kill rcp tsort backup diff last readall ttt banner dirname leave recover tty basename du lex ref uname bc dw life remsync uncompress bsfilt echo ln restore unexpand btoa ed login rev uniq cal elle look rm unshar calendar ellec lp rmdir update cat elvis lpd roff uud cawf elvprsv ls rz uudecode cc elvrec m2 sed uue cdiff ex m4 sh uuencode cgrep expand mail shar vi chfn expr make sleep wc chgrp factor man sort whatsnew chmod fgrep men split which chown file mesg strings who chsh find mkdir stty whoami ci flex mkfifo su width cksum fmt mknod sum write clone fold mkproto swapfs xargs clr fortune more sync yacc cmp gather mref synctree yap co gomoku mv sz yes colcrt grep nroff tail zcat if the answer is yes, I'll make it a port. PS : I've just do the job some time ago, but didn't test anything. Cyrille. -- home: mailto:clefevre@poboxes.com UNIX is user-friendly; it's just particular work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre@edf.fr about who it chooses to be friends with. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Feb 12 14: 4: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from peorth.iteration.net (peorth.iteration.net [208.190.180.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883C937B491 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by peorth.iteration.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 69C60594D1; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:04:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:04:06 -0600 From: "Michael C . Wu" To: Cyrille Lefevre Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Minix sh Message-ID: <20010212160406.D34069@peorth.iteration.net> Reply-To: "Michael C . Wu" Mail-Followup-To: "Michael C . Wu" , Cyrille Lefevre , Andrzej Bialecki , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010211185310.E19845@peorth.iteration.net> <3ddj37u2.fsf@gits.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3ddj37u2.fsf@gits.dyndns.org>; from clefevre@poboxes.com on Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:33:09PM +0100 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 5025 F691 F943 8128 48A8 5025 77CE 29C5 8FA1 2E20 X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x8FA12E20 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:33:09PM +0100, Cyrille Lefevre scribbled: | "Michael C . Wu" writes: | | > On Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:27PM +0100, Andrzej Bialecki scribbled: | > | I resurrected tinyware/msh - it was deleted before due to licensing | > | problems, but since then the licanse has changed... | > | > I remember promising to make msh a port if you could help me | > find the source. Do you have patches for FreeBSD and the source now? | > The promise still stands. | | are you interrested by something like this : | | root@gits:grub/ (ttyp3) [446]# ls /usr/local/minix/bin Certainly, please make them ports. :) -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | keichii@peorth.iteration.net | keichii@bsdconspiracy.net | | http://peorth.iteration.net/~keichii | Yes, BSD is a conspiracy. | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Feb 17 1:57: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from mail.sicfa.com (ns.sicfa.org [212.43.217.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDE237B401 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.sicfa.com (Postfix, from userid 511) id 9408E1657E; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:57:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:57:02 +0100 From: Lucas Nussbaum To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd on a small laptop Message-ID: <20010217105702.A2194@ns.sicfa.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, This mail is slightly OT on this list. But I hope your experience in setting FreeBSD in small systems will help me. I have an old laptop, a 486 SX 25 with 80 MB of hard drive and 4 MB RAM. I'd like to install FreeBSD on it, only to be able to take notes using vi :) The lack of RAM seems to be a problem : FreeBSD 4 of course doesn't work, and FreeBSD 3 neither. So I'd like to install FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE on it (I was told it would work). I've download the 2.2-STABLE sources using CVSUP. 1/ What's the best way to get 2.2-STABLE installed on the laptop ? I'd like to install it using TCP/IP over parallel, since I have neither NIC nor CDROM drive in it. 2/ How can I build the installation floppies ? 3/ When the installation floppies will be built, what must I do to build an "installable" version on my fbsd 4 box ? Can I make buildworld on my fbsd 4 box without breaking everything on it ? Any help would be very strongly appreciated :) Lucas -- Help Wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Feb 17 2:59: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from chynpop1.chyn.uswest.net (chynpop1.chyn.uswest.net [209.181.12.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88D9837B503 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:59:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23437 invoked by alias); 17 Feb 2001 10:58:57 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-small@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 23429 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 2001 10:58:57 -0000 Received: from adslppp173.chyn.uswest.net (HELO qwest.net) (209.181.20.173) by chynpop1.chyn.uswest.net with SMTP; 17 Feb 2001 10:58:57 -0000 Message-ID: <3A8E5971.169CB1E9@qwest.net> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:58:57 -0700 From: Keith Schmauss Reply-To: skeith7@qwest.net Organization: International Science & Teknolgy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Subject: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG help To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Feb 17 12:46:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org Received: from leka.almamedia.fi (leka.yhteys.mtv3.fi [62.236.224.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C02E37B4EC for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:46:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18469 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2001 20:46:46 -0000 Received: from dyn-h-172.yhteys.mtv3.fi (HELO snafu.intra.net) (@62.236.232.172) by leka.yhteys.mtv3.fi with SMTP; 17 Feb 2001 20:46:46 -0000 Received: from cubical.fi (junkyard.intra.net [192.168.2.2]) by snafu.intra.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f1HKkCe43617; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:46:20 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from jml@cubical.fi) Message-ID: <3A8EE315.5DBE1B16@cubical.fi> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:46:13 +0200 From: Juha-Matti Liukkonen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lucas Nussbaum Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd on a small laptop References: <20010217105702.A2194@ns.sicfa.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, if you just want to run vi, check out the picobsd release build. You can fit a lot of stuff -- even 4.x based -- on a single 1.44M floppy. Vi most definitely qualifies, I've built floppies with dhcp and lynx on them making an old 386 into a working text-only web surfboard, among other things. Cheers, - Juha Lucas Nussbaum wrote: > > Hello, > > This mail is slightly OT on this list. But I hope your experience in setting > FreeBSD in small systems will help me. > > I have an old laptop, a 486 SX 25 with 80 MB of hard drive and 4 MB RAM. I'd > like to install FreeBSD on it, only to be able to take notes using vi :) > The lack of RAM seems to be a problem : FreeBSD 4 of course doesn't work, and > FreeBSD 3 neither. So I'd like to install FreeBSD 2.2-STABLE on it (I was told > it would work). > > I've download the 2.2-STABLE sources using CVSUP. > > 1/ What's the best way to get 2.2-STABLE installed on the laptop ? I'd like to > install it using TCP/IP over parallel, since I have neither NIC nor CDROM drive > in it. > > 2/ How can I build the installation floppies ? > > 3/ When the installation floppies will be built, what must I do to build an > "installable" version on my fbsd 4 box ? Can I make buildworld on my fbsd 4 box > without breaking everything on it ? > > Any help would be very strongly appreciated :) > > Lucas > -- > Help Wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message -- Juha-Matti Liukkonen, Cubical Solutions Ltd Phone: +358(0)405280142 Email: jml@cubical.fi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message