From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 6: 6: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E85137B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 22BF85361; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:05:55 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Doug Barton Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Will Andrews , David O'Brien , Makoto Matsushita , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621135806Z.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 15:05:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton writes: > Or users for whom xdm isn't possible because the pam libraries in > -current are buggered. I can't recall receiving a bug report from you. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 6: 9:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2460637B404; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 06:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 29DE95362; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:08:39 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: bright@mu.org, will@csociety.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 15:08:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: > > Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm. > I think this attitude is not helpful. xdm broke badly on the last set > up upgrades I did to X. startx is the only thing that still works for > me. I don't think your attitude is helpful either. You should be trying to figure out (or helping someone try to figure out) what's wrong with xdm, rather than whining about it. Maybe *this* is what's really wrong with FreeBSD: people seem more comfortable whining about bugs and building up grudges towards those they think are responsible for them, than trying to actually fix them. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 8:27:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from castle.jp.FreeBSD.org (castle.jp.FreeBSD.org [210.226.20.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE1E37B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by castle.jp.FreeBSD.org (8.11.6+3.4W/8.11.3) with ESMTP/inet6 id g5NFQqN84963; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:26:52 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org) Cc: will@csociety.org, obrien@FreeBSD.org, matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: References: <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> X-User-Agent: Mew/1.94.2 XEmacs/21.5 (bamboo) X-FaceAnim: (-O_O-)(O_O- )(_O- )(O- )(- -)( -O)( -O_)( -O_O)(-O_O-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 40 From: Makoto Matsushita To: des@ofug.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:26:49 +0900 Message-Id: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG des> Yes, there is: it's a setuid binary. It shouldn't be installed des> unless it's needed. The X wrapper should be installed for startx users, and we can't deduce who want to use it. Let me clarify the point again: Background: 1) In XFree86 3.x, the non-root users of startx(1) kick X server without any setups, since X server is a setuid binary. 2) In XFree86 4.x, the non-root users of startx(1) cannot kick X server, since X server is no longer setuid binary. Note that most of users doesn't know X server has setuid bit or not. Current situations: 3) The startx users think that XFree86 4.2 is broken, X server can't start. FreeBSD bundles XFree86 4.2. As a result, they says "Latest FreeBSD's X server is broken." How to solve: 4a) Write documents, to explain that "startx users should install X wrapper separately, since sysinstall doesn't automatically install the wrapper." 4b) Install X wrapper after XFree86 installation is finished. 4c) Add X wrapper itself into XFree86 meta-port. 4d) Do nothing. Current situation is 4d), I propose 4b) in the last email, and some others suggests 4c). How do you think about this, des? I don't want to talk about xdm/pam breakage or something like that; I want to talk about (backward compatibility?) issues for startx users. -- - Makoto `MAR' Matsushita To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 8:54:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2304637B403; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 08:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5NFsfY70318; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:54:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5NFseG43961; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:54:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:54:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020623.095430.112622070.imp@village.org> To: des@ofug.org Cc: bright@mu.org, will@csociety.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: References: <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : "M. Warner Losh" writes: : > Dag-Erling Smorgrav writes: : > > Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm. : > I think this attitude is not helpful. xdm broke badly on the last set : > up upgrades I did to X. startx is the only thing that still works for : > me. : : I don't think your attitude is helpful either. You should be trying : to figure out (or helping someone try to figure out) what's wrong with : xdm, rather than whining about it. Given the number of bugs that I have on my plate for PCCARD, and the hellish schedule at work, I desided to live with it rather than spend more time on it. It isn't whinging. I have a limited amount of time. I also am doing sufficient driver work that booting to X is a pain and starting it by hand is useful, so I've not been motivated to figure it out from that angle either. : Maybe *this* is what's really wrong with FreeBSD: people seem more : comfortable whining about bugs and building up grudges towards those : they think are responsible for them, than trying to actually fix them. Maybe. I wasn't blaming you for it, as I have no clue what the problem was. I'm pretty sure it isn't PAM since it broke when I upgraded X, not when I did an installworld. Now that the crunch time is over, I may find some time to deal. Maybe you are a hearing insult and derision where none was really meant. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 9:13:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC1AE37B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 96C425361; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:13:31 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: bright@mu.org, will@csociety.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> <20020623.095430.112622070.imp@village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 18:13:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020623.095430.112622070.imp@village.org> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Maybe. I wasn't blaming you for it, as I have no clue what the > problem was. I'm pretty sure it isn't PAM since it broke when I > upgraded X, not when I did an installworld. It could still be PAM, as your old xdm was probably linked against Linux-PAM while your new xdm is linked against OpenPAM. Any authentication-related problem you may encounter is probably linked, directly or indirectly, to something I'm working on or have worked on in the past six months. I can't fix bugs I don't know about, though, and I don't read minds, so please report them when you find them. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:25:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E5A37B407; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728098B5CE; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:24:36 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Will Andrews , David O'Brien , Makoto Matsushita , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621135806Z.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Doug Barton writes: > > Or users for whom xdm isn't possible because the pam libraries in > > -current are buggered. > > I can't recall receiving a bug report from you. Then you have a really bad memory. :) You're one of the ones that told me that it was "necessary" to break binay compat with 4.x for so I was SOL with the X 4.2 I downloaded from Xfree's web site. Now, recompiling isn't even an option because X won't compile on -current... yippee! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:38: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B2437B401 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5NJc5P8051413; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NJc5vF051412; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:38:05 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: des@ofug.org Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623123805.B51272@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org>; from imp@village.org on Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 10:51:27PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 22, 2002 at 10:51:27PM -0600, M. Warner Losh wrote: > : Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm. > > I think this attitude is not helpful. Agreed. I have never, ever used xdm and even disable dtlogin on Solaris. I have always started X manually and intend to always do that. On a development system it is just a PITA to not be in this level of control. Mechanism, not policy. > I can't recall receiving a bug report from you. ^^^ ^Wpatch that would add back the granular menu of what X bits one wants to install. Or any other sysinstall patch that asks the user if they would like the Xwrapper installed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:41:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F73B37B404 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5NJfEP8051443; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NJfBqC051442; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:41:11 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Makoto Matsushita Cc: des@ofug.org, will@csociety.org, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623124111.C51272@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Makoto Matsushita , des@ofug.org, will@csociety.org, arch@FreeBSD.org References: <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org>; from matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:26:49AM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:26:49AM +0900, Makoto Matsushita wrote: > Current situations: > 3) The startx users think that XFree86 4.2 is broken, X server > can't start. FreeBSD bundles XFree86 4.2. As a result, > they says "Latest FreeBSD's X server is broken." > > How to solve: > 4a) Write documents, to explain that "startx users should > install X wrapper separately, since sysinstall doesn't > automatically install the wrapper." > 4b) Install X wrapper after XFree86 installation is finished. > 4c) Add X wrapper itself into XFree86 meta-port. > 4d) Do nothing. > > Current situation is 4d), I propose 4b) in the last email, and some > others suggests 4c). You will have the same problem with `pkg_add -r XFree86' if you choose "4b". That is why I am opposed to only handling it in Sysinstall. In addition to "4c", the granular menu of X bits one wishes to install needs to be re-added. I tried this, but either bugs in libdialog or my knowledge of its API caused me to fail in the short time I had to do the XF4 changes this before 4.6. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:49:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF44E37B401; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B75B8B5C4; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D16265A.3EB9DB6E@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:49:46 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Makoto Matsushita , des@ofug.org, will@csociety.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020623124111.C51272@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 24, 2002 at 12:26:49AM +0900, Makoto Matsushita wrote: > > Current situations: > > 3) The startx users think that XFree86 4.2 is broken, X server > > can't start. FreeBSD bundles XFree86 4.2. As a result, > > they says "Latest FreeBSD's X server is broken." > > > > How to solve: > > 4a) Write documents, to explain that "startx users should > > install X wrapper separately, since sysinstall doesn't > > automatically install the wrapper." > > 4b) Install X wrapper after XFree86 installation is finished. > > 4c) Add X wrapper itself into XFree86 meta-port. > > 4d) Do nothing. > > > > Current situation is 4d), I propose 4b) in the last email, and some > > others suggests 4c). > > You will have the same problem with `pkg_add -r XFree86' if you choose > "4b". That is why I am opposed to only handling it in Sysinstall. > > In addition to "4c", the granular menu of X bits one wishes to install > needs to be re-added. I tried this, but either bugs in libdialog or my > knowledge of its API caused me to fail in the short time I had to do the > XF4 changes this before 4.6. Well, I just fixed a bug in the textbox part of dialog(1), if that helps you any. :) I also thought of another point... even if we see using xdm as a "better" solution than startx, users will still need to be able to startx in order to get their X configuration nice and tidy before they try xdm. So, I'm still in favor of installing the wrapper with the X install. I'd rather educate the few users who know they won't need it to delete it after the install, rather than take the (legitimate) complaints from those who need it, but don't have it. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:52: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADFE37B415; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0F5B85361; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:51:51 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Doug Barton Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Will Andrews , David O'Brien , Makoto Matsushita , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621135806Z.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 21:51:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Doug Barton writes: > > > Or users for whom xdm isn't possible because the pam libraries in > > > -current are buggered. > > I can't recall receiving a bug report from you. > Then you have a really bad memory. :) You're one of the ones that told > me that it was "necessary" to break binay compat with 4.x for silly reason> so I was SOL with the X 4.2 I downloaded from Xfree's web > site. Now, recompiling isn't even an option because X won't compile on > -current... yippee! I'm afraid you're the one with a bad memory, then - I distinctly remember explaining to you *why* you were having problems with xdm and PAM. To summarize, you were running a version of X built on -STABLE on a version of -CURRENT where the -STABLE PAM library and modules had been clobbered with a version that wouldn't coexist with -STABLE's libc. This problem has existed on -CURRENT since long before I started working on PAM, and part of my work has been to implement PAM module versioning so this problem wouldn't occur in the future. The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success. If you still claim that "the pam libraries in -current are buggered", you're going to have to back it up with solid evidence. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:53:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F38B37B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08901; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:53:05 +1000 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:58:09 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Makoto Matsushita Cc: des@ofug.org, , , Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? In-Reply-To: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <20020624055428.L13837-100000@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Makoto Matsushita wrote: > Let me clarify the point again: > > Background: > 1) In XFree86 3.x, the non-root users of startx(1) kick X > server without any setups, since X server is a setuid binary. The X server is not setuid in XFree86 3.3.6, and IIRC it was not setuid in a couple of earlier versions. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 12:56:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5B737B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5NJu6ri023290; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:56:06 -0700 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NJu63j023289; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:56:06 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:56:06 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Will Andrews , "David O'Brien" , Makoto Matsushita , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623125606.A18232@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20020621135806Z.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 03:55:15AM +0200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 03:55:15AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Alfred Perlstein writes: > > Not having 'startx' or having a 'startx' that doesn't work is > > really a bad idea. It _will_ annoy users. >=20 > Only users who haven't yet entered the 90s and discovered xdm. I don't run X using xdm because doing so means /usr is always busy and thus you can't do a "mount -ru /usr" before loading a module thus saving a lot of time on boot if the module panics the system. This is especialy critical on my laptop where fsck takes 5-10 minutes on /usr. Backgroups fsck is a real savior, but it's still a pain. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9FifVXY6L6fI4GtQRAm2pAKDDKgDY7FHqQb8rPtx0JsfjJhh5yACgnHRd n0rL+7yti2LHsYiHhFxQuVM= =FqUt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IS0zKkzwUGydFO0o-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 13: 8:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail-relay1.yahoo.com (mail-relay1.yahoo.com [216.145.48.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EC637B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FreeBSD.org (12-234-90-219.client.attbi.com [12.234.90.219]) by mail-relay1.yahoo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA928B5A4; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D162AA6.47309ABA@FreeBSD.org> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:08:06 -0700 From: Doug Barton Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Will Andrews , David O'Brien , Makoto Matsushita , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621135806Z.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE > to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in > compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success. Well, I tried adding my 4.x pam stuff and libc[_r].so.4 to /usr/lib/compat on my -current system, and it didn't work. Then I included my /etc/pam.conf from 4.x, still no joy. Thus, I didn't poke David very hard to include it, since I didn't see much point. If you have any other suggestions on things to try, I'll be happy to help. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 14: 0:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF4B37B404 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5NL05P8079606; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NL04a7079605; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:00:04 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , arch@FreeBSD.org References: <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:51:50PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 09:51:50PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > The long-term fix to allow people to upgrade painlessly from -STABLE > to -CURRENT is to include -STABLE's PAM library and modules in > compat4x. I've asked David to do this several times, with no success. And I asked for some needed clarification, but never heard back. Date: Sat, 4 May 2002 23:32:14 -0700 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Doug Barton , John Baldwin , current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: xdm broken on current ..snip.. I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 14:15:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714B237B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 9CB4A5362; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:15:46 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020621134520.G68827@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 23:15:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: Lines: 9 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" writes: > I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is > there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM? PAM modules *are* versioned. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 14:20:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FEC37B403 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5NLKeP8089611; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NLKerg089610; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:20:40 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623142040.A89509@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , arch@FreeBSD.org References: <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "David O'Brien" writes: > > I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is > > there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM? > > PAM modules *are* versioned. Uh, where?? ref4:/usr/lib> ls pam* pam_cleartext_pass_ok.so pam_radius.so pam_deny.so pam_skey.so pam_krb5.so pam_ssh.so pam_opie.so pam_tacplus.so pam_permit.so pam_unix.so To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 14:50:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4022337B403; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 0CCAF5361; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:50:02 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: obrien@FreeBSD.org Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020623142040.A89509@dragon.nuxi.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Jun 2002 23:50:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020623142040.A89509@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" writes: > On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > "David O'Brien" writes: > > > I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is > > > there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM? > > PAM modules *are* versioned. > Uh, where?? In -CURRENT. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 15:41:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C72337B400; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5NMfeY71843; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:41:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5NMfdG46140; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:41:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:41:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020623.164129.132928592.imp@village.org> To: matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org Cc: des@ofug.org, will@csociety.org, obrien@FreeBSD.ORG, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> References: <20020621223209.GP76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: <20020624002649D.matusita@jp.FreeBSD.org> Makoto Matsushita writes: : How do you think about this, des? I don't want to talk about xdm/pam : breakage or something like that; I want to talk about (backward : compatibility?) issues for startx users. Timing Solutions, my employer, has several systems that boot into X11 w/o xdm, but instead by using startx as non-root user. It would be desriable for that functionality to remain as we move forward versions of X11 that are in our products. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 16:12:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7120237B400 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5NNCGY71951 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:12:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5NNCFG46255 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:12:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:12:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: It is time to admit that removable devices exist From: "M. Warner Losh" X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable devices better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a mechanism by which client drivers can ask if the device is still really there or not. The new bus_if method would be "child_present". The default, implemented in the nexus, would return "yes." However, busses that can have their devices removed, and can have knowledge of such an event, are expected to override the bus_child_present method. In that method, they are expected to make the determination, by direct inspection of the hardware if possible, if the device is really there or not. child_present is expected to return 0 when the device is gone, and a -1 when the device is present. This also happens to be binary compatible with old releases since when you call a method that isn't in a device's method table, it return ENXIO. This is non-zero and is the most compatible thing you can return. Drivers that wish to cope on their own with systems too old to have this call can check for 0 or -1 directly and if not one of those two methods, they are free to adopt their own ad-hoc methods for dealing. I expect there to be no such drivers, but it never hurts to design for them. Most client drivers will check for == 0 or != 0. Why do we need this? Many device drivers do not properly deal with device gone conditions. When the device disappears, they either loop forever waiting for a bit to clear, or they have some kind of kludge that prevents this from happening (0xff is magic, limits on the number of loops, etc). It would be much cleaner if a device had a bus-independent way to ask these questions. I plan to implement this for both OLDCARD/NEWCARD soon, and also to MFC it into -stable since it is useful and also backwards compatible. It will likely be one of the last things that I do to OLDCARD. Comments? See http://www.freebsd.org/~imp/dev-gone.20020623 for a diff. Warner P.S. I just noticed that I don't have nexus driver changes for each of our platforms. Of course I'll do that before I commit the code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 17:16:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA1037B401; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0336.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.81] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MHWk-0007lz-00; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:16:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1664AC.94F98F95@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:15:40 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: des@ofug.org, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020622200545.GS76002@squall.waterspout.com> <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <20020622.225127.112566091.imp@village.org> <20020623123805.B51272@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > > I can't recall receiving a bug report from you. > ^^^ > ^Wpatch > > that would add back the granular menu of what X bits one wants to > install. Or any other sysinstall patch that asks the user if they would > like the Xwrapper installed. Uh... Isn't this like removing "ls" or otherwise damaging the base functionality of the system, and then asking for a patch to add a menu item to sysinstall to get that functionality back? Don't get me wrong: I understand that the reason it was done was to provide increased security... but... security is always a trade-off between usability for authorised and unauthorized users. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 23 17:26: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F5137B403; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@hak.Awfulhak.org [IPv6:2001:6f8:602:1::12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.12.4/8.12.4) with SMTP id g5O0Prxq009251; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:25:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:25:49 +0100 From: Brian Somers To: Nik Clayton Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Timetables for interface deprecation/deletion Message-Id: <20020624012549.4ac2ee7b.brian@Awfulhak.org> In-Reply-To: <20020618225523.J52976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <20020618225523.J52976@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.8claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think this sort of approach is good. We should introduce this sort of thing (as a section in our man pages), but (as Poul-Henning says) we shouldn't let it prevail against common sense. Interfaces such as those that ps(1) and the like use should have a classification of ``private'', meaning that you're not allowed to use it - even if it's documented (which it generally shouldn't be). However the stuff in places like libutil should be documented to a degree that people know whether they should use them or not. I don't think a major release number's worth of support is too much to ask for. In fact I'd say this sort of thing should be a major consideration for any commercial body deciding to go with FreeBSD. On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:55:23 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > [ It's times like this I regret the fact that we don't have a Linus > equivalent to lay down the law ] > > As FreeBSD develops, we inevitably change, adapt, and throw away old > 'interfaces'. > > * Library APIs > * The behaviour of command line options > * The use of certain commands > * Configuration options and mechanisms > > and more. > > I think the life cycle of an interface can be described as follows: > > Introductory We make no guarantee this interface will be in > future versions of FreeBSD. > > Stable This interface is guaranteed to exist in > all minor versions of FreeBSD corresponding with > the major version in which it exists. > > Once an interface is marked 'Stable' it must go > through the 'Deprecated' and 'Obsolete' stages > before removal. > > Deprecated The interface is supported, but is slated for > obsolecence in the next major release of > FreeBSD. > > Obsolete The interface is not supported. It may work, > but it is not guaranteed to. The interface will > be removed in the next major version of FreeBSD. > > Assuming, for the moment, that that makes sense to people, over what sort > of timescales should interfaces move from state to state? > > And does the project have the will to guarantee this? > > [ "Guarantee"? OK, nothing's guaranteed in an open source project. But > IMHO, there are a few things that the project should commit to. As > long as these things are appropriately documented, and decided upon -- > committer vote? core declaration? -- unwillingness to commit to them > should be grounds for removal of a commit bit. > > Harsh, I know. But as I mention above, we don't have a Linus-like > figure to lay down the law. ] > > N > -- > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) > FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) > \/ \ ^ > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/_) > -- Brian Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 4:32:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4666337B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 04:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OBUjCn078099; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:30:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:12:00 MDT." <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:30:45 +0200 Message-ID: <78098.1024918245@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org>, "M. Warner Losh" writes: >Comments? You're on right track. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 5: 7:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41BC37B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 05:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 93E705362; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:07:38 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist References: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jun 2002 14:07:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "M. Warner Losh" writes: > Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable > devices better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a > mechanism by which client drivers can ask if the device is still > really there or not. Very good, this will remove one of the big worries I had about my PKCS#11 implementation. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 6:55:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (mta05-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE4B37B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntlworld.com ([213.104.146.54]) by mta05-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020624135552.SPLQ2755.mta05-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com> for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:55:52 +0100 Message-ID: <3D17245A.3080300@ntlworld.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:53:30 +0100 From: Antony T Curtis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020611 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: video capture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is there an analogous specification for FreeBSD as Linux's V4L? Is there interest (except of myself) for such a beast? I'm messing about writing a KLD for a OV511 based USB capture device and it would be nice if there was some generic interface for all such devices. All I can see in STABLE is the bktr device for capturing. -- Antony T Curtis BSc Unix Analyst Programmer http://homepage.ntlworld.com/antony.t.curtis/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 7:20:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from park.rambler.ru (park.rambler.ru [217.73.193.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0504D37B40D for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from is (is.stack.net [217.73.193.40]) by park.rambler.ru (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g5OEJ1k95890; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:19:01 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from is@rambler-co.ru) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:19:01 +0400 (MSD) From: Igor Sysoev X-Sender: is@is To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Jonathan Lemon Subject: kqueue EV_POLL proposal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some time ago I sent kqueue EV_POLL proposal without any response: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=441254+0+archive/2002/freebsd-arch/20020317.freebsd-arch Now it seems that Jonathan Lemon have some time to look maillists so I repeat this proposal with one addition. Previous patch enables EV_POLL as action: EV_SET(socket, EV_READ, EV_POLL) and it's available as http://www.sysoev.ru/freebsd/patch.ev_poll.action.txt New patch enables EV_POLL as flag (like EV_ONESHOT and EV_CLEAR): EV_SET(socket, EV_READ, EV_ADD|EV_POLL) and it's available as http://www.sysoev.ru/freebsd/patch.ev_poll.flag.txt These patches were made on FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE. Igor Sysoev http://sysoev.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 8:23:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42EF937B409 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OFNJW05805; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:23:19 +0200 (MEST) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:23:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Antony T Curtis Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture In-Reply-To: <3D17245A.3080300@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20020624172059.Q367-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Antony T Curtis wrote: ATC>Is there an analogous specification for FreeBSD as Linux's V4L? ATC> ATC>Is there interest (except of myself) for such a beast? There is no such thing. It would be nice to have one (but not so broken by design as V4L). ATC>I'm messing about writing a KLD for a OV511 based USB capture device and ATC>it would be nice if there was some generic interface for all such ATC>devices. All I can see in STABLE is the bktr device for capturing. The bktr more or less works. There are a number of issues, where the chip documentation seems to be wrong, but you can easily get 25 fps without much cpu usage. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 9:24:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554C737B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.nlsystems.com ([62.49.251.130] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MWcN-0009AH-0U; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:23:07 +0100 Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g5O8wmGL028096; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:58:48 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from dfr@herring.nlsystems.com) Received: (from dfr@localhost) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g5O8wmjh028095; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:58:48 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Doug Rabson To: "M. Warner Losh" , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:58:48 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> In-Reply-To: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 24 June 2002 12:12 am, M. Warner Losh wrote: > Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable > devices better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a > mechanism by which client drivers can ask if the device is still > really there or not. > > The new bus_if method would be "child_present". The default, > implemented in the nexus, would return "yes." However, busses that > can have their devices removed, and can have knowledge of such an > event, are expected to override the bus_child_present method. In that > method, they are expected to make the determination, by direct > inspection of the hardware if possible, if the device is really there > or not. > > child_present is expected to return 0 when the device is gone, and a > -1 when the device is present. This also happens to be binary > compatible with old releases since when you call a method that isn't > in a device's method table, it return ENXIO. This is non-zero and is > the most compatible thing you can return. Drivers that wish to cope > on their own with systems too old to have this call can check for 0 or > -1 directly and if not one of those two methods, they are free to > adopt their own ad-hoc methods for dealing. I expect there to be no > such drivers, but it never hurts to design for them. Most client > drivers will check for =3D=3D 0 or !=3D 0. > > Why do we need this? Many device drivers do not properly deal with > device gone conditions. When the device disappears, they either loop > forever waiting for a bit to clear, or they have some kind of kludge > that prevents this from happening (0xff is magic, limits on the number > of loops, etc). It would be much cleaner if a device had a > bus-independent way to ask these questions. > > I plan to implement this for both OLDCARD/NEWCARD soon, and also to > MFC it into -stable since it is useful and also backwards compatible. > It will likely be one of the last things that I do to OLDCARD. > > Comments? In your implementation of bus_generic_child_present, you pass the origina= l=20 device to the parent bus' child_present method. The idea of cascading the= =20 request is a good one (e.g. the phy of a cardbus ethernet card is clearly= not=20 present if the card itself isn't present). It might be better for the bus= =20 implementation though if you pass the bus rather than the original child=20 device, e.g.: int +bus_generic_child_present(device_t bus, device_t child) +{ +=09return (BUS_CHILD_PRESENT(device_get_parent(bus), bus)); +} This would give the parent bus enough information to find the ivars etc. = to=20 make a decision about whether 'bus' is still present. --=20 Doug Rabson=09=09=09=09Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com =09=09=09=09=09Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 12:14:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6491A37B41A for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (smmsp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OJDNpR000378; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5NM9gXN000886; Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:09:42 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? Message-ID: <20020623150942.A867@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@freebsd.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , arch@FreeBSD.org References: <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020623142040.A89509@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:50:01PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:50:01PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "David O'Brien" writes: > > On Sun, Jun 23, 2002 at 11:15:46PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > "David O'Brien" writes: > > > > I guess I need clarification. Since PAM modules aren't versioned, is > > > > there a problem? Or did you rename all the modules with OpenPAM? > > > PAM modules *are* versioned. > > Uh, where?? > > In -CURRENT. As I've asked you many times in the past, I cannot understand your desires from your _once_ sentance responces. This is the biggest thing that makes it almost impossible for me to work with you. Why can't you say something like: PAM modules used to not be versioned, however starting in -CURRENT with OpenPAM they are now versioned. Also, unlike all other shared objects, -CURRENT PAM modules do not have a non-versioned `.so' symlink (nor will they ever). Thus it is safe to put all the pam_*.so (non-versioned) into compat4x and our users' lives will be easier. [The above is my guess of the situation from some poking around. BUT what would have been nice if you could have provided being the PAM expert of the moment.] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:36:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F34B37B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by sasami.jurai.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OKap2A095666; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:36:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:36:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist In-Reply-To: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> Message-ID: <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, M. Warner Losh wrote: > Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable devices > better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a mechanism > by which client drivers can ask if the device is still really there or > not. If a device driver is ever in a position to ask this question when a device is not actually present then we've got larger issues. I don't think this is the correct solution; adding function calls to all the interrupt handlers is broken, especially since PCMCIA doesn't really support hot removal of devices anyway. No other OS supports this correctly either. I suggest that you implement a PCMCIA/CARDBUS specific BUS_SETUP_INTR method that performs whatever check is needed before calling the driver interrupt handler. We should also implement 'ifconfig detach/unplumb/destroy' as an interface for forcing network devices (the most common hot removed device) to be detached. This will allow users to completely detach the device before they remove it. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:44:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E410937B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OKgGCn083074; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:42:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: "M. Warner Losh" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:36:51 EDT." <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:42:16 +0200 Message-ID: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net>, "Matthew N. Dodd" w rites: >On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, M. Warner Losh wrote: >> Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable devices >> better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a mechanism >> by which client drivers can ask if the device is still really there or >> not. > >If a device driver is ever in a position to ask this question when a >device is not actually present then we've got larger issues. Yes, but shooting the JEDEC/PCMCIA/PCCARD standards groups is too late now :-) Notice how there is no mechanical lock on your pccards ? When you eject a pccard, we may get in pccard-socket interrupt before it disappears but we may also not. Depending on the world+dog this interrupt me come before, during or after the relevant device driver enters its interrupt routine. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:45:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8BF37B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5OKjAY77816; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:45:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OKj9G53413; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:45:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:44:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020624.144454.84361547.imp@village.org> To: winter@jurai.net Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> References: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> "Matthew N. Dodd" writes: : On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, M. Warner Losh wrote: : > Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable devices : > better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a mechanism : > by which client drivers can ask if the device is still really there or : > not. : : If a device driver is ever in a position to ask this question when a : device is not actually present then we've got larger issues. You need it in the detach method so that you don't flush things when the hardware is gone. Also, there are times that the hardware can just vanish out from under us, even while we're in some critical section of code. : I don't think this is the correct solution; adding function calls to all : the interrupt handlers is broken, especially since PCMCIA doesn't really : support hot removal of devices anyway. No other OS supports this correctly : either. We support it decently. People expect it to basically work. USB and Firewire all properly support hotplug, but may also need a way to know if their device has gone away while they weren't looking. Hotswap PCI also needs this, but there there's hooks in the bridge chipset that you have to hook into to properly quiess the device. This is supposed to be a generic method. : I suggest that you implement a PCMCIA/CARDBUS specific BUS_SETUP_INTR : method that performs whatever check is needed before calling the driver : interrupt handler. We already do that. But lots of things can happen between when we call the ISR and when the ISR finishes running. The call is indented for ISRs that may wish to terminate always (which they should do anyway). : We should also implement 'ifconfig detach/unplumb/destroy' as an interface : for forcing network devices (the most common hot removed device) to be : detached. This will allow users to completely detach the device before : they remove it. That's not a viable option. We'd really need a 'devcontrol detach sio4' to do things right. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:46:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D409737B403 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5OKkiY77845; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:46:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OKkgG53425; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:46:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:46:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020624.144627.115021679.imp@village.org> To: dfr@nlsystems.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> References: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> Doug Rabson writes: : In your implementation of bus_generic_child_present, you pass the original : device to the parent bus' child_present method. The idea of cascading the : request is a good one (e.g. the phy of a cardbus ethernet card is clearly not : present if the card itself isn't present). It might be better for the bus : implementation though if you pass the bus rather than the original child : device, e.g.: : : int : +bus_generic_child_present(device_t bus, device_t child) : +{ : + return (BUS_CHILD_PRESENT(device_get_parent(bus), bus)); : +} : : This would give the parent bus enough information to find the ivars etc. to : make a decision about whether 'bus' is still present. Maybe. However, I do not know if all busses can tell if an immediate child can be detached always. I'm thinking specifically about USB and its device tree. But USB could be written such that it can cope with this. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:51:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B9C37B49A for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5OKoSY77886; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:50:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OKoQG53462; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:50:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020624.145012.32175932.imp@village.org> To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: winter@jurai.net, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> Poul-Henning Kamp writes: : When you eject a pccard, we may get in pccard-socket interrupt : before it disappears but we may also not. Depending on the world+dog : this interrupt me come before, during or after the relevant device : driver enters its interrupt routine. For ISA cards this is definitely true. Either the CSR happens first or the card interrupt, depending on a lot of complex issues (including the bridge generating interrupts in ways that are ill defined at best). For PCI cards, where we have shared interrupts, we already implement an interlock. We could implement one more layer of indirection in the ISA case as well. Still doesn't solve the detach issue (it is currently ambiguous: used for both unload and for device has disappeared), which my proposal solves nicely. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:51:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F96337B41C for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [66.92.160.223]) by sasami.jurai.net (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OKpL2A096251; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:51:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:51:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: "M. Warner Losh" , Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist In-Reply-To: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <20020624164822.H95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > When you eject a pccard, we may get in pccard-socket interrupt before it > disappears but we may also not. Depending on the world+dog this > interrupt me come before, during or after the relevant device driver > enters its interrupt routine. And dirtying up every bit of code that is called from the interrupt handler that touches the hardware isn't the solution. Thinking that this feature should actually work is the real problem. MacOS X and Windows don't support this (ie: they blow up just as often as we do when you try hot removing stuff.) I want to see the performance hit this causes quantified on lower end hardware before drivers are patched to support this API (which I concede may have some use outside PCMCIA devices.) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | winter@jurai.net | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL | ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | For Great Justice! | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:52:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EA5F37B41C for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.12.3/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5OKobCn084745; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:50:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "M. Warner Losh" Cc: winter@jurai.net, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:50:12 MDT." <20020624.145012.32175932.imp@village.org> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:50:37 +0200 Message-ID: <84744.1024951837@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20020624.145012.32175932.imp@village.org>, "M. Warner Losh" writes: >In message: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> > Poul-Henning Kamp writes: >: When you eject a pccard, we may get in pccard-socket interrupt >: before it disappears but we may also not. Depending on the world+dog >: this interrupt me come before, during or after the relevant device >: driver enters its interrupt routine. > >For ISA cards this is definitely true. Either the CSR happens first >or the card interrupt, depending on a lot of complex issues (including >the bridge generating interrupts in ways that are ill defined at >best). For PCI cards, where we have shared interrupts, we already >implement an interlock. We could implement one more layer of >indirection in the ISA case as well. > >Still doesn't solve the detach issue (it is currently ambiguous: used >for both unload and for device has disappeared), which my proposal >solves nicely. Which I, as I said earlier, fully agree with. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 13:59:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722F137B434 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g5OKwBY77976; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:58:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5OKwAG53534; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:58:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:57:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <20020624.145759.95908168.imp@village.org> To: winter@jurai.net Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20020624164822.H95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> References: <83073.1024951336@critter.freebsd.dk> <20020624164822.H95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message: <20020624164822.H95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> "Matthew N. Dodd" writes: : I want to see the performance hit this causes quantified on lower end : hardware before drivers are patched to support this API (which I concede : may have some use outside PCMCIA devices.) The cost on low end machines (where you have nexus -> isa -> device) is going to be 3 indirect function calls per call for the non pccard case, which is << 1us cycle time of the ISA bus. 3 indirect function calls would be on the order of 25-100 cycles depending on the CPU. For all but the slowest of hardware no one will notice this extra processing. Even on a 33MHz 386 this would be only about 3us. I doubt I could measure its effect on anything faster than a P90 or P100. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 14:40:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from softweyr.com (softweyr.com [65.88.244.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BAB37B400; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nextgig-7.customer.nethere.net ([209.132.102.167] helo=softweyr.com) by softweyr.com with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17MbYz-000P9u-00; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:39:58 -0600 Message-ID: <3D1764C3.698D85EF@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:28:19 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Juli Mallett , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: feature request for xargs References: <200206200706.g5K76M514469@freefall.freebsd.org> <200206211033.03948.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <200206211110.45597.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D13A6BB.E4FB6085@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Mikhail Teterin wrote: > > On Friday 21 June 2002 11:09 am, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > = Mikhail Teterin writes: > > = > All operations, involving many light tasks can benefit, i.e. > > = > > > = > find /some/dir \! -type d -print0 | xargs -0 -j0 rm -f > > = > > = find /some/dir \! -type d -delete > > > > Wouldn't this be slower, since find will be waiting for the delete > > to complete (yes, I know about the racing)? > > Give up. 8-). > > It's a bad example. There are good examples. find /usr/src -type f | xargs -j N indent --freebsd-knf Where "N" is roughly ncpus * 2. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 14:45:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (mta03-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AE637B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntlworld.com ([213.104.146.54]) by mta03-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020624214518.XGZY295.mta03-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com>; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:45:18 +0100 Message-ID: <3D17925C.5060106@ntlworld.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:42:52 +0100 From: Antony T Curtis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020611 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harti Brandt Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture References: <20020624172059.Q367-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Harti Brandt wrote: > On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Antony T Curtis wrote: > > ATC>Is there an analogous specification for FreeBSD as Linux's V4L? > ATC> > ATC>Is there interest (except of myself) for such a beast? > > There is no such thing. It would be nice to have one (but not so broken by > design as V4L). I'm open to suggestions.... In a past life, I messed about with MMOS/2 (OS/2's multimedia subsystem) but that doesn't qualify me for such a task. As to how such a thing be implemented - does it sound reasonable to create a CAM-like abstraction of which all the video devices may be connected to? It would be great to have something in place which is not so device specific. > ATC>I'm messing about writing a KLD for a OV511 based USB capture device and > ATC>it would be nice if there was some generic interface for all such > ATC>devices. All I can see in STABLE is the bktr device for capturing. > > The bktr more or less works. There are a number of issues, where the chip > documentation seems to be wrong, but you can easily get 25 fps without > much cpu usage. I have two old video capture boards which are not in use... One is a "Black Widow" branded ISA board (which I have some DOS source code to drive it) and the other is a PCI board with a "Zoran" chip on it. -- Antony T Curtis BSc Unix Analyst Programmer http://homepage.ntlworld.com/antony.t.curtis/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 14:58:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2282337B4E8 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0352.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.97] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17MbqX-0006kr-00; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:58:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1795C3.9943A9D7@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:57:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: "M. Warner Losh" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist References: <20020624163116.J95270-100000@sasami.jurai.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Matthew N. Dodd" wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jun 2002, M. Warner Losh wrote: > > Please find enclosed the beginnings of a patch to make removable devices > > better represented in the system. Right now all it adds is a mechanism > > by which client drivers can ask if the device is still really there or > > not. > > If a device driver is ever in a position to ask this question when a > device is not actually present then we've got larger issues. I was thinking this, too, but my thinking was going more in terms of arrival/departure events. The last time I raised this in the context of the pccard discussion, I was yelled at because it was "too much work" (I had just pointed out that Windows supported it on my Sony laptop). > We should also implement 'ifconfig detach/unplumb/destroy' as an interface > for forcing network devices (the most common hot removed device) to be > detached. This will allow users to completely detach the device before > they remove it. I think CDROMs are probably the most commonly removed. That kind of assumes that you treat them as bus devices with actual disks arriving and departing. I think that anything connected to a docking ports, a serial (USB or regular) port, etc., will probably outweigh network devices soon, if it they don't already. It makes sense to want to plug in an arbitrary (supported) USB device wor which the specific driver is not loaded, but for which the USB driver is present and can recognize the device well enough to pick a driver that needs to be loaded (or to, alternately, complain that one doesn't exist). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 14:59:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6736037B407; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id E30075362; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:59:46 +0200 (CEST) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: obrien@freebsd.org Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing XFree86 package via sysinstall: need X wrapper or not? References: <20020622204229.GG53232@elvis.mu.org> <3D152EAA.DB201738@FreeBSD.org> <3D162074.A636B067@FreeBSD.org> <20020623140004.B79416@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020623142040.A89509@dragon.nuxi.com> <20020623150942.A867@dragon.nuxi.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 24 Jun 2002 23:59:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20020623150942.A867@dragon.nuxi.com> Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" writes: > PAM modules used to not be versioned, however starting in -CURRENT > with OpenPAM they are now versioned. Also, unlike all other shared > objects, -CURRENT PAM modules do not have a non-versioned `.so' > symlink (nor will they ever). Thus it is safe to put all the > pam_*.so (non-versioned) into compat4x and our users' lives will be > easier. Absolutely correct, and my apologies for not stating this clearly. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 15:17:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B4837B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.nlsystems.com ([62.49.251.130] helo=herring.nlsystems.com) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17Mc99-0007l6-0Y; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:17:19 +0100 Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g5OMHIGL034339; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:17:18 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from dfr@herring.nlsystems.com) Received: (from dfr@localhost) by herring.nlsystems.com (8.12.4/8.12.4/Submit) id g5OMHIuo034338; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:17:18 +0100 (BST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Doug Rabson To: "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: It is time to admit that removable devices exist Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 23:17:18 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 Cc: arch@freebsd.org References: <20020623.171200.96231110.imp@village.org> <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> <20020624.144627.115021679.imp@village.org> In-Reply-To: <20020624.144627.115021679.imp@village.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200206242317.18561.dfr@nlsystems.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday 24 June 2002 9:46 pm, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <200206240958.48240.dfr@nlsystems.com> > > Doug Rabson writes: > : In your implementation of bus_generic_child_present, you pass the > : original device to the parent bus' child_present method. The idea of > : cascading the request is a good one (e.g. the phy of a cardbus ethern= et > : card is clearly not present if the card itself isn't present). It mig= ht > : be better for the bus implementation though if you pass the bus rathe= r > : than the original child device, e.g.: > : > : int > : +bus_generic_child_present(device_t bus, device_t child) > : +{ > : +=09return (BUS_CHILD_PRESENT(device_get_parent(bus), bus)); > : +} > : > : This would give the parent bus enough information to find the ivars e= tc. > : to make a decision about whether 'bus' is still present. > > Maybe. However, I do not know if all busses can tell if an immediate > child can be detached always. I'm thinking specifically about USB and > its device tree. But USB could be written such that it can cope with > this. My thinking was that it would be hard for a bus to tell if something whic= h=20 wasn't an immediate child was present, since it can't know anything about= the=20 structure of its children's children. --=20 Doug Rabson=09=09=09=09Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com =09=09=09=09=09Phone: +44 20 8348 6160 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 16: 9:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from web20901.mail.yahoo.com (web20901.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.226.223]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1593637B400 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020624230916.60365.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.108.158.71] by web20901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:09:16 PDT Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:09:16 -0700 (PDT) From: David Xu Subject: Re: kqueue EV_POLL proposal To: Igor Sysoev Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG what purpose is this patch ? David Xu ----- Original Message ----- From: "Igor Sysoev" To: Cc: "Jonathan Lemon" Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: kqueue EV_POLL proposal > > Some time ago I sent kqueue EV_POLL proposal without any response: > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=441254+0+archive/2002/freebsd-arch/20020317.freebsd-arch > > Now it seems that Jonathan Lemon have some time to look maillists > so I repeat this proposal with one addition. Previous patch enables > EV_POLL as action: > EV_SET(socket, EV_READ, EV_POLL) > > and it's available as > http://www.sysoev.ru/freebsd/patch.ev_poll.action.txt > > New patch enables EV_POLL as flag (like EV_ONESHOT and EV_CLEAR): > EV_SET(socket, EV_READ, EV_ADD|EV_POLL) > > and it's available as > http://www.sysoev.ru/freebsd/patch.ev_poll.flag.txt > > These patches were made on FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE. > > Igor Sysoev > http://sysoev.ru > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jun 24 21:33:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from park.rambler.ru (park.rambler.ru [217.73.193.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CAD337B403 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from is (is.stack.net [217.73.193.40]) by park.rambler.ru (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g5P4X3k21257; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:33:03 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from is@rambler-co.ru) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:33:02 +0400 (MSD) From: Igor Sysoev X-Sender: is@is To: David Xu Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kqueue EV_POLL proposal In-Reply-To: <20020624230916.60365.qmail@web20901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, David Xu wrote: > what purpose is this patch ? Sorry, purpose was described in my previous email http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=441254+0+archive/2002/freebsd-arch/20020317.freebsd-arch that I mentioned as reference. Igor Sysoev http://sysoev.ru To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 25 0:53:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2AA37B405 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5P7pWW05421; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:51:32 +0200 (MEST) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:51:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Antony T Curtis Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: video capture In-Reply-To: <3D17925C.5060106@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20020625094833.U395-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Antony T Curtis wrote: ATC>Harti Brandt wrote: ATC>> On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Antony T Curtis wrote: ATC>> ATC>> ATC>Is there an analogous specification for FreeBSD as Linux's V4L? ATC>> ATC> ATC>> ATC>Is there interest (except of myself) for such a beast? ATC>> ATC>> There is no such thing. It would be nice to have one (but not so broken by ATC>> design as V4L). ATC> ATC>I'm open to suggestions.... In a past life, I messed about with MMOS/2 ATC>(OS/2's multimedia subsystem) but that doesn't qualify me for such a task. ATC> ATC> ATC>As to how such a thing be implemented - does it sound reasonable to ATC>create a CAM-like abstraction of which all the video devices may be ATC>connected to? ATC> ATC>It would be great to have something in place which is not so device ATC>specific. Yes, I strongly suggest a layer above the video drivers. Well, I could assist you in the design of such a thing, having written a couple of applications that use video under FreeBSD and Solaris. But this would be not earlier than august, because I'm leaving for vacation in the next days. ATC>> ATC>I'm messing about writing a KLD for a OV511 based USB capture device and ATC>> ATC>it would be nice if there was some generic interface for all such ATC>> ATC>devices. All I can see in STABLE is the bktr device for capturing. ATC>> ATC>> The bktr more or less works. There are a number of issues, where the chip ATC>> documentation seems to be wrong, but you can easily get 25 fps without ATC>> much cpu usage. ATC> ATC>I have two old video capture boards which are not in use... One is a ATC>"Black Widow" branded ISA board (which I have some DOS source code to ATC>drive it) and the other is a PCI board with a "Zoran" chip on it. I would also be interested in getting USB cameras and Firewire under this api. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 25 1: 5:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law2-oe54.hotmail.com [216.32.180.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3903D37B496; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 01:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 01:01:41 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.144.144.233] From: "mont" To: Subject: =?windows-874?B?cGFydC10aW1lIDUsMDAwLTEwLDAwMCCk2LOh57fT5LTpICEhIQ==?= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:59:06 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C21C58.DA3373A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2002 08:01:41.0725 (UTC) FILETIME=[8A7400D0:01C21C1E] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C21C58.DA3373A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = =C3=D0=BA=BA=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=A2=CD=A7=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=E3=B9=CD=B9= =D2=A4=B5 =B7=D3=E4=B4=E9=A7=E8=D2=C2 = =E1=C5=D0=CA=C3=E9=D2=A7=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=A7=D2=C1=A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3= =A7=D2=B9=BC=E8=D2=B9=C3=D0=BA=BA =BC=C1=C1=D5=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=C1=D2=A1=A1=C7=E8=D2 30,000 / = =E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=C7=D1=B9=C5=D0 2-3 = =AA=D1=E8=C7=E2=C1=A7=E0=B7=E8=D2=B9=D1=E9=B9 =E2=CD=A1=D2=CA=C1=D2=B6=D6=A7=A4=D8=B3=E1=C5=E9=C7 ! = =E0=CB=C5=D7=CD=E1=B5=E8=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=A4=D8=B3=A8=D0=A4=C7=E9=D2=C1=D1=B9= =CB=C3=D7=CD=E0=BB=C5=E8=D2 =A1=D2=C3=BA=C3=C3=C2=D2=C2=E1=B9=D0=B9=D3=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8 = International E-Business =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=C7=D4=B8=D5=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9 = =B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=B9=D2=B9=D2=AA=D2=B5=D4 =BA=B9 Internet=20 = =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=E1=BC=B9=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D4=E8=C1=C3= =D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=BE=D4=E0=C8=C9=E3=B9=E1=B5=E8=C5=D0=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 Part-time 15,000 =B6=D6=A7 60,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 7- 14 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 full-time 30,000 =B6=D6=A7 170,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 20- 40 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 =A2=E8=D2=C7=B4=D5 ! =CA=D3=CB=C3=D1=BA = =BC=D9=E9=B7=D5=E8=CD=C2=D9=E8=E3=B9=E0=A2=B5 =A1=C3=D8=A7=E0=B7=BE=CF = =E1=C5=D0=BB=C3=D4=C1=C5=B1=C5 = =CA=D3=C3=CD=A7=B7=D5=E8=B9=D1=E8=A7=E0=BE=D7=E8=CD=BF=D1=A7=A1=D2=C3=BA=C3= =C3=C2=D2=C2 =BF=C3=D5 !!! = ************************************************************* = =A2=CD=CD=C0=D1=C2=CB=D2=A1=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=E4=BB=B6=D6=A7=A4= =D8=B3=E2=B4=C2=BA=D1=A7=E0=CD=D4=AD=CB=D2=A1=A4=D8=B3=E4=C1=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7= =A1=D2=C3=C3=D1=BA=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=CD=D5=A1 =A1=C3=D8=B3=D2 =E1=A8=E9=A7 Mail = =A2=CD=A7=A4=D8=B3=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=A1=D2=C3=C5=BA=C1=D2=B7=D5=E8 = "Unsubscribe" =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C21C58.DA3373A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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=E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA= =BA=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9 Part-time
15,000 =B6=D6=A7 = 60,000=20 = =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9
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=E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA= =BA=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9 full-time
30,000 =B6=D6=A7 170,000=20 = =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9
=E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 = : 20- 40 =AA=C1. /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC

=A2=E8=D2=C7=B4=D5=20 !     = =CA=D3=CB=C3=D1=BA = =BC=D9=E9=B7=D5=E8=CD=C2=D9=E8=E3=B9=E0=A2=B5=20 =A1=C3=D8=A7=E0=B7=BE=CF  = =E1=C5=D0=BB=C3=D4=C1=C5=B1=C5
=CA=D3=C3=CD=A7=B7=D5=E8=B9=D1=E8=A7=E0=BE=D7=E8=CD=BF=D1=A7=A1=D2= =C3=BA=C3=C3=C2=D2=C2   = =BF=C3=D5 !!!
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------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C21C58.DA3373A0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 25 2:23:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp [133.11.199.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 997A737B400; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.12.3+3.5Wbeta/3.7W-rina.r-Nankai-Koya) with ESMTP id g5P9NA3i080067 ; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:23:10 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200206250923.g5P9NA3i080067@rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 18:23:10 +0900 From: Seigo Tanimura To: Bosko Milekic Cc: Terry Lambert , Robert Watson , Seigo Tanimura , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: multiple threads for interrupts In-Reply-To: <20020620225450.A38506@unixdaemons.com> References: <3D128E50.CC2E0387@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.8.1 (Something) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 MULE XEmacs/21.1 (patch 14) (Cuyahoga Valley) (i386--freebsd) Organization: Digital Library Research Division, Information Techinology Centre, The University of Tokyo MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:54:50 -0400, Bosko Milekic said: bmilekic> On Thu, Jun 20, 2002 at 07:24:16PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Robert Watson wrote: >> > Unfortunately, I'm probably not really qualified to talk much about the >> > swi stuff. But I can say I'd really like to have multiple netisr threads >> > once the lock pushdown on IPv4 is more done :-). bmilekic> [...] >> I can't understand the fascination with NETISR, however. It should >> not exist in the first place. >> >> If any one doubts this, they really need to contact Van Jacobsen; >> as Archie Cobbs, since he works at the same company as Van, if >> you don't have contact information for Van yourself. >> >> -- Terry bmilekic> That's funny. I brought up the idea of processing network interrupts bmilekic> to completion at the developer summit and Jeffrey Hsu bmilekic> pointed out quite the opposite. He mentionned, and with very good bmilekic> reason, that the longer you spend running the stack like that as soon as bmilekic> you take the interrupt, the easier you'll be in livelock when you start bmilekic> taking a lot of interrupts (it was along those lines (I appologize, bmilekic> Jeffrey, if I didn't quote you exactly here)). If we have a pool of bmilekic> threads available to run the stack, though, perhaps we could do a sort bmilekic> of hybridized thing where we take the interrupt and switch to one of our bmilekic> available threads to process the packet, but once we hit the stack bmilekic> layer, re-enable the source and keep running. That way we could take bmilekic> another interrupt from the same source and we'll at most end up bmilekic> scheduling N threads (where N <= #cpus). To make matters worse, we could bmilekic> even decide to not re-enable the source when we switch to the N'th bmilekic> (final) thread - this way, we may end up preventing total livelock bmilekic> should we hit a storm. Once we run out of threads, we just set bmilekic> the need_service bit and return. Perhaps we'll find that the bmilekic> optimal number of threads to schedule at most at any given time will be bmilekic> something like N = #cpus/2. In any case, this is at best speculative bmilekic> and totally theoretical and we really can't argue these issues right now bmilekic> and expect to reach the correct solution. Running multiple interrupt threads is just one way to improve the MLFRR (in light of Mogul's paper) of a host. We can use that with polling or elimination of software interrupt. One merit of running multiple interrupt threads would be that we can apply it to a subsystem other than the network stack. A high-speed serial device (USB, Firewire, etc.) may benefit from this approach as well. -- Seigo Tanimura To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 25 2:51:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (oe55.pav2.hotmail.com [64.4.36.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC1537B40C; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 02:49:31 -0700 X-Originating-IP: [203.144.144.233] From: "mont" To: Subject: =?windows-874?B?cGFydC10aW1lIDUsMDAwLTEwLDAwMCCk2LOh57fT5LTpICEhIQ==?= Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:45:39 +0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2002 09:49:31.0844 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AF1D040:01C21C2D] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable = =C3=D0=BA=BA=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=A2=CD=A7=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=E3=B9=CD=B9= =D2=A4=B5 =B7=D3=E4=B4=E9=A7=E8=D2=C2 = =E1=C5=D0=CA=C3=E9=D2=A7=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=A7=D2=C1=A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3= =A7=D2=B9=BC=E8=D2=B9=C3=D0=BA=BA =BC=C1=C1=D5=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=C1=D2=A1=A1=C7=E8=D2 30,000 / = =E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =A8=D2=A1=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=C7=D1=B9=C5=D0 2-3 = =AA=D1=E8=C7=E2=C1=A7=E0=B7=E8=D2=B9=D1=E9=B9 =E2=CD=A1=D2=CA=C1=D2=B6=D6=A7=A4=D8=B3=E1=C5=E9=C7 ! = =E0=CB=C5=D7=CD=E1=B5=E8=E0=BE=D5=C2=A7=A4=D8=B3=A8=D0=A4=C7=E9=D2=C1=D1=B9= =CB=C3=D7=CD=E0=BB=C5=E8=D2 =A1=D2=C3=BA=C3=C3=C2=D2=C2=E1=B9=D0=B9=D3=B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8 = International E-Business =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=C7=D4=B8=D5=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9 = =B8=D8=C3=A1=D4=A8=B9=D2=B9=D2=AA=D2=B5=D4 =BA=B9 Internet=20 = =E0=C3=D5=C2=B9=C3=D9=E9=E1=BC=B9=A1=D2=C3=B7=D3=A7=D2=B9=E0=BE=D4=E8=C1=C3= =D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=BE=D4=E0=C8=C9=E3=B9=E1=B5=E8=C5=D0=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 Part-time 15,000 =B6=D6=A7 60,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 7- 14 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 = =E1=BC=B9=C3=D2=C2=E4=B4=E9=CD=C2=E8=D2=A7=A8=C3=D4=A7=A8=D1=A7=E1=BA=BA=B7= =D3=A7=D2=B9 full-time 30,000 =B6=D6=A7 170,000 =BA=D2=B7/=E0=B4=D7=CD=B9 =E0=C7=C5=D2=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=E3=AA=E9 : 20- 40 =AA=C1. = /=CA=D1=BB=B4=D2=CB=EC=20 =A2=E8=D2=C7=B4=D5 ! =CA=D3=CB=C3=D1=BA = =BC=D9=E9=B7=D5=E8=CD=C2=D9=E8=E3=B9=E0=A2=B5 =A1=C3=D8=A7=E0=B7=BE=CF = =E1=C5=D0=BB=C3=D4=C1=C5=B1=C5 = =CA=D3=C3=CD=A7=B7=D5=E8=B9=D1=E8=A7=E0=BE=D7=E8=CD=BF=D1=A7=A1=D2=C3=BA=C3= =C3=C2=D2=C2 =BF=C3=D5 !!! = ************************************************************* = =A2=CD=CD=C0=D1=C2=CB=D2=A1=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=E4=BB=B6=D6=A7=A4= =D8=B3=E2=B4=C2=BA=D1=A7=E0=CD=D4=AD=CB=D2=A1=A4=D8=B3=E4=C1=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7= =A1=D2=C3=C3=D1=BA=A2=E9=CD=A4=C7=D2=C1=B9=D5=E9=CD=D5=A1 =A1=C3=D8=B3=D2 =E1=A8=E9=A7 Mail = =A2=CD=A7=A4=D8=B3=B7=D5=E8=B5=E9=CD=A7=A1=D2=C3=C5=BA=C1=D2=B7=D5=E8 = "Unsubscribe" =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-874" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01C21C67.BCB0AE60-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jun 25 21:27:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A4237B400 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0431.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.176] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17N4Ok-0000Gi-00 for arch@freeBSD.org; Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:27:20 -0700 Message-ID: <3D194269.FC40555E@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:26:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freeBSD.org Subject: LWN: The Ottawa Kernel Summit, Day One Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is an interesting article, and it bears on some of the recent issues on the mailing lists with regard to FreeBSD (particularly VM). This is probably the list that best fits the correct audience for the article. http://lwn.net/Articles/3327/ -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 26 17:35:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mta05ps.bigpond.com (mta05ps.bigpond.com [144.135.25.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B1D37CFC7 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from areilly.bpc-users.org ([144.135.25.72]) by mta05ps.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15 mta05ps Apr 29 2002 13:22:02) with SMTP id GYC9GF00.3KL for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:31:27 +1000 Received: from CPE-144-132-188-183.nsw.bigpond.net.au ([144.132.188.183]) by PSMAM02.mailsvc.email.bigpond.com(MailRouter V3.0n 74/20869221); 27 Jun 2002 10:31:27 Received: (qmail 62096 invoked from network); 27 Jun 2002 00:31:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (andrew@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 27 Jun 2002 00:31:27 -0000 Subject: Re: Where do you see FreeBSD in 10 years? From: Andrew Reilly To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3D06EBDC.99C72671@mindspring.com> References: <3D06EBDC.99C72671@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.7 Date: 27 Jun 2002 10:31:27 +1000 Message-Id: <1025137887.15145.46.camel@gurney.reilly.home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Terry, Not many followups. Did you get any direct responses? I'm interested in the answers myself, so here's a few thoughts from a non-developer but long-time BSD user ('85 or '86). On Wed, 2002-06-12 at 16:36, Terry Lambert wrote: > 1) Where is your "stake in the ground", your "line in the sand"? > What is your goal for the FreeBSD project? I'm not sure that I understand the first question, but I'd like to think that the second was something like: Be the most useful, reliable and efficient way to use the popular computer hardware of the day. (And still freely available for any use.) I would hope that the measure of FreeBSD's success would continue to be based on internal consistency and equal measures of academic rigor and pragmatism, rather than marketing-style dot-point competition with the the alternatives (assuming that there are any). > 2) Where do you see FreeBSD in 10 years? In the pursuit of the aforementioned goal, I would hope that in those 10 years we would have comprehensively brought FreeBSD aka Unix up to date with all of the good ideas from academic OS research: to be a truly state of the art system. A few dot-points along that path might be: * sufficient modularity that the future FreeBSD can be one-size fits all: swappable schedulers, authentication systems, user-land utility sets. Servers do (and will) run the gamut from single-processor appliances to multi-processor enterprise behemoths, and I can't think of a reason not to be suitable for them all. Workstations are servers with a graphics subsystem, so we should be able to do that too. Modularity might not ultimately prove necessary where a basic system can be made sufficiently flexible all on it's own. * I don't know how much distortion of the Unix mold this introduces, but I would like to see mounting file systems, particularly remote ones and dynamic ones (say on flash cards, or pluggable disks) be something that user's can do, and that affect only that user (plan-9 style). Perhaps that is something that can be managed adequately in user-land libraries, like the GNOME VFS stuff, or some future modification of automount but that seems needlessly redundant. * Of course the SMP scalability issue will be well-and-truly licked by then, and FreeBSD will happily control 1000-node NUMA HPC racks as well as more distributed systems, cluster-style. This will have brought hard-real-time capabilities with it, so that FreeBSD can be used in medical, mechanical and other types of "equipment". * I expect that NetBSD will be the first to bite this particular bullet-point, but perhaps I can hope that by that time the systems will still be sufficiently close (if not actually the same) that FreeBSD will get this too: I expect that processor architecture is likely to diversify, and for there to certainly be a diversity of instruction sets in common use across the range of platforms. I'd like to think that FreeBSD could attract commercial applications, and expect that these would be provided as binary executables. It is still convenient to supply pieces of FreeBSD itself as pre-compiled binaries (packages). Taken together, I think that this implies either an emulator framework or (I would prefer) a TAO-style intermediate VM for distributed object code. Even pico-java or IA32 would probably do, and be useful in any case. Not sure why I like this particular idea, I just do. I strongly suspect that dynamic recompilation is going to prove necessary for Itanium systems to be competitive in any case. From the FreeBSD perspective, this is really a tool-chain issue. But it's one of those issues that sits at the junction between OS and tool-chain: where do you draw the line --- how much work does the linker/loader really do... Oh, well, there's my ramble for the morning. -- Andrew To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 26 19:10:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A75B37B43B for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0039.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NOjH-0000eX-00; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:09:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1A73BA.7AECC9CB@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 19:08:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Reilly Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Where do you see FreeBSD in 10 years? References: <3D06EBDC.99C72671@mindspring.com> <1025137887.15145.46.camel@gurney.reilly.home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Andrew Reilly wrote: > Hi Terry, > > Not many followups. Did you get any direct responses? I received a few direct responses; that's really not enough to post a summary without direct quotes. Mostly it's just been the sound of crickets on the mailing list. This was intended to be a basis for renewed architectural discussion. I guess I could restate it as one question, with some initial premises: Given that there are 259 committers; there are 10 years; 52 weeks per year, and an estimate of an average of 8 hours per week per committer of total committer and non-committer volunteer work is not unreasonable (committers outnumber contributors by a large margin). That gives a total of roughly 1,000,000 man hours of labor to spend over the next ten years, even assuming no growth. Or roughly 20 human lifetimes of labor. If you could wave a magic wand, spend 1,000,000 man hours of labor on anything you wanted, as long as it had to do with FreeBSD, what would FreeBSD look like after it was all done? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Jun 26 23:31: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203A537B406 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0588.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.200.78] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NSnw-0004YF-00 for arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:30:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1AB0C4.1F046F01@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:29:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I read an interesting article that was tangentially related to scaling OS's to a large numbre of CPU's (in this case, Linux). In it, there was a pointer to a talk that Larry McVoy gave at one point regarding CPU scalability and clustering. Here's the HTTP version of his slide show: http://www.bitmover.com/cc-pitch/ While it's technically about Linux, his criticisms, if valid also apply equally to FreeBSD. In any case, it's a thought provoking read. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 0:12:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB87337B405 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AD60D8128E; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:42:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:42:19 +0930 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Message-ID: <20020627071219.GB73837@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3D1AB0C4.1F046F01@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1AB0C4.1F046F01@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 26 June 2002 at 23:29:24 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > I read an interesting article that was tangentially related to > scaling OS's to a large numbre of CPU's (in this case, Linux). > > In it, there was a pointer to a talk that Larry McVoy gave at > one point regarding CPU scalability and clustering. Here's > the HTTP version of his slide show: > > http://www.bitmover.com/cc-pitch/ > > While it's technically about Linux, his criticisms, if valid > also apply equally to FreeBSD. In any case, it's a thought > provoking read. Julian Elischer and I met with Larry during the last BSDCon. He had intended to come and talk to us about it, but for some reason changed his mind. Admittedly neither Julian nor I were overly impressed with what he had to say about the concept. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 2:12:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95A5437B401; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17NVJw-0001Xn-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:12:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 02:12:08 -0700 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Message-ID: <20020627091208.GA5930@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <3D1AB0C4.1F046F01@mindspring.com> <20020627071219.GB73837@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020627071219.GB73837@wantadilla.lemis.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Bill Huey Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 04:42:19PM +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > While it's technically about Linux, his criticisms, if valid > > also apply equally to FreeBSD. In any case, it's a thought > > provoking read. > > Julian Elischer and I met with Larry during the last BSDCon. He had > intended to come and talk to us about it, but for some reason changed > his mind. Admittedly neither Julian nor I were overly impressed with > what he had to say about the concept. It's a different kind of programming model with different conceptual structures so it's difficult to really "get" what's good about the schema. It's probably a good idea for a certain set of problems though. I probably shouldn't be posting about stuff like this. ;) bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 11: 1:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B3337B413; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org ([12.232.206.8]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020627180032.LPNT6023.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@InterJet.elischer.org>; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:00:32 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA69729; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:48:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters In-Reply-To: <20020627071219.GB73837@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not "overly impressed" is not quite accurate.. "not sure that it was relevant to us" is more to the point He was against making the system scale to N processors where N is a large number, stating that if corrupted the system too much to have such fine grained locking, and that such large-scale MP situations should be achieved with clusters of "Small-N" machines, connected together by higher level constructs. I did take some mental notes from the meeting. e.g. "make sure we don't make our kernel TOO fine grained. On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 26 June 2002 at 23:29:24 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I read an interesting article that was tangentially related to > > scaling OS's to a large numbre of CPU's (in this case, Linux). > > > > In it, there was a pointer to a talk that Larry McVoy gave at > > one point regarding CPU scalability and clustering. Here's > > the HTTP version of his slide show: > > > > http://www.bitmover.com/cc-pitch/ > > > > While it's technically about Linux, his criticisms, if valid > > also apply equally to FreeBSD. In any case, it's a thought > > provoking read. > > Julian Elischer and I met with Larry during the last BSDCon. He had > intended to come and talk to us about it, but for some reason changed > his mind. Admittedly neither Julian nor I were overly impressed with > what he had to say about the concept. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 11:18:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f115.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B2C37B400 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:18:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:18:31 -0700 Received: from 149.99.116.196 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:18:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [149.99.116.196] From: "Gary Thorpe" To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:18:31 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Jun 2002 18:18:31.0944 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B16C080:01C21E07] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The slides seem to be talking about NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) machines which use CC (Cache Coherancy). These types of machines implement a cluster purely in hardware from what I have read of them (single memory address space is really distributed shared memory coordinated in hardware by high speed switches etc) and use much faster/lower latency communication methods. Examples would be SGI's Origin2000 and Origin3000 and maybe Sun's Starfire line. The big advantage is scaling and redundancy, since no one part of teh system is essential for the whole thing working (which is how clusters should also work ideally). I think this ties in to Mr. Lambert's question about the future of FreeBSD very much. I think the NUMA model will eventually dominate all future large systems in the next 10 years (and SMP will come to be standard on small systems) and FreBSD will probably have to run efficiently on them to compete with Linux etc. Having seemless clusters (by this I mean clusters that work as a single system with one system image and identity) would probably be a an interesting problem also, since only a few OSes have made any serious attempt at implementing them. PVM, MPI, and MOSIX cannot for example migrate I/O among machines (network load balancing maybe?). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 12: 1:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5C637B411 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.4/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5RJ0XT4000412; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5RJ0X4w000411; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:00:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200206271900.g5RJ0X4w000411@apollo.backplane.com> To: "Gary Thorpe" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters References: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I think this ties in to Mr. Lambert's question about the future of FreeBSD :very much. I think the NUMA model will eventually dominate all future large :systems in the next 10 years (and SMP will come to be standard on small :systems) and FreBSD will probably have to run efficiently on them to compete :with Linux etc. Having seemless clusters (by this I mean clusters that work :as a single system with one system image and identity) would probably be a :an interesting problem also, since only a few OSes have made any serious :attempt at implementing them. PVM, MPI, and MOSIX cannot for example migrate :I/O among machines (network load balancing maybe?). Well, I'm not so sure. I think partitioning will come to dominate all future large machines in the future. They may well be NUMA, but NUMA will be relegated to the role of being simply a faster communications medium. We will certainly see cache-coherent shared memory across the network used in major ways (we see primitive versions of this now) because their relative costs will be cheaper then NUMA (and will always be cheaper then NUMA). The distinction is important from the point of view of OS design. Even in NUMA systems the difference between local and remote memory is too great for a non-deterministic implementation (which is essentially what Linux has) and does not mesh well with the uniform cache architecture implemented by Linux, Solaris, BSD, etc... most modern OSs. The natural conclusion is to partition instead and develop more formalized, deterministic, network-transportable mechanisms for sharing data that can be abstracted out using mmap(). NUMA then becomes just another, faster transport mechanism. That is the direction I believe the BSDs will take... transparent clustering with NUMA transport, network transport, or a hybrid of both. -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 13:21:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23C037B405; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0530.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.20] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NflV-0006ZE-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:21:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:20:33 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julian Elischer Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Julian Elischer wrote: > Not "overly impressed" is not quite accurate.. > > "not sure that it was relevant to us" is more to the point > > He was against making the system scale to N processors where N is a large > number, stating that if corrupted the system too much to have > such fine grained locking, and that such large-scale > MP situations should be achieved with clusters of "Small-N" > machines, connected together by higher level constructs. > > I did take some mental notes from the meeting. > e.g. "make sure we don't make our kernel TOO fine grained. You should read the slides at http://www.bitmover.com/cc-pitch/ ; it should take you all of four minutes, if you skip the loading of the picture in slide 29, or if you have a fast link. He actually wants systems to be able to scale to N processors, but he believes that the way this will happen is by clustered instances of the OS, rather than running a single OS image on an indefinite number of processors. It makes sense, since his belief appears to be that at some point, a large N means that the system will be NUMA. He also makes the point that 99% of all systems are in fact not SMP (he has statistics to back this supposition), and thus there needs to be a weighting of effort relative to the user base for the resulting code. It's very intersting reading. You could actually argue that NUMA bears the same relationship to shared memory multiprocessors as shared memory multiprocessors bear to SMT processors. In all likelihood, you will have machines that are technically uniprocessor that have hyperthreading enabled in far more installations than you will ever have true SMP via multiple discrete CPUs. My personal target rests above NUMA, where there are relatively glacially slow communications channels, compared to CPU speed; this is basically the environment in which, for example, you have literally millions of processors operating from incomplete information with potentially lossy communications channels. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 13:26:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (66-191-112-47.mad.wi.charter.com [66.191.112.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C933337B406; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g5RKQ2s49191; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:02 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Terry Lambert Cc: Julian Elischer , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Message-ID: <20020627152602.A1020@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:20:33PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > My personal target rests above NUMA, where there are relatively > glacially slow communications channels, compared to CPU speed; > this is basically the environment in which, for example, you > have literally millions of processors operating from incomplete > information with potentially lossy communications channels. A.K.A. "The Internet". -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 14:28:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FB2E37B400; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool0530.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.20] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17NgoR-0003y0-00; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:28:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1B834E.70573706@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:27:42 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Julian Elischer , Greg 'groggy' Lehey , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters References: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> <20020627152602.A1020@prism.flugsvamp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 01:20:33PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > My personal target rests above NUMA, where there are relatively > > glacially slow communications channels, compared to CPU speed; > > this is basically the environment in which, for example, you > > have literally millions of processors operating from incomplete > > information with potentially lossy communications channels. > > A.K.A. "The Internet". Actually, a worse communication vs. CPU speed ratio than that, eventually. There are a couple of problems that can only be solved with an architecture that assumes a progression of the ratio. I think Larry persuasively demonstrates that there is a hierarchy in communications channels vs. CPU speed that is not accounted for in most OS design. My scale ("Lambert's Interconnection Scale"? 8-)) would be: ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- CPUS DIES SEPERATION NAME ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- 1 1 0 Processing (8-)) N 1 0 SMT N M 1 SMP N M 2 NUMA N M 3 Distributed (full information) N M 4 Distributed (partial information) N M 5 Distributed (partial functionality) ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- The hardware DES breaker that was built as a proof of concept was purpose-built hardware with a seperation of 2. The 65,536 processor machine that Good Year built for modelling laminar airflow on the full shuttle airframe was purpose built hardware with a seperation of 2. So were most of the Connection Machine series from Thinking Machines, Inc.. SETI@Home is a purpose-built machine with a seperation of 3, and so are the protein folding and crypto-breaking and similar systems. The Javalin research project was a virtual machine general purpose computing platform with a seperation of 3. One of the things that Kazaa is attempting is to build a general purpose computing platform -- a real machine -- with a seperation of 3 (whether they realize this or not is another matter). Larry's presentation claims (in slide 11) that the traditional MP approach has been to "build a solution, and scale it up", e.g.: ``We're at 2, can you get to 4?'' ``We're at 4, can you get to 8?'' Etc. And then he asks: ``Can you go 3 orders of magnitude farther?'' Which is maybe the wrong question; it pegs your initial position farther out on the incrementalism scale, but doesn't answer the question of how to get from N to N+1 for an arbitrary N. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 15:26:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1446037B407; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5RMQHri006853; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:17 -0700 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5RMQGYq006852; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:16 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Julian Elischer , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Message-ID: <20020627152616.A3450@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> <20020627152602.A1020@prism.flugsvamp.com> <3D1B834E.70573706@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3D1B834E.70573706@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:27:42PM -0700 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 27, 2002 at 02:27:42PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think Larry persuasively demonstrates that there is a hierarchy > in communications channels vs. CPU speed that is not accounted for > in most OS design. My scale ("Lambert's Interconnection Scale"? 8-)) > would be: >=20 > ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- > CPUS DIES SEPERATION NAME > ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- > 1 1 0 Processing (8-)) > N 1 0 SMT > N M 1 SMP > N M 2 NUMA > N M 3 Distributed (full information) > N M 4 Distributed (partial information) > N M 5 Distributed (partial functionality) > ---- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------- Where would you place single die, multiple core devices like the MIPS R9000 or the dual core devices from IBM. Today I suspect they are pretty similare to SMP, but as SMP systems get faster clocks, distance on the motherboard scale might add enough latency to matter. > The 65,536 processor machine that Good Year built for modelling > laminar airflow on the full shuttle airframe was purpose built > hardware with a seperation of 2. So were most of the Connection > Machine series from Thinking Machines, Inc.. For things you can actually buy, anything over 2 CPUs from SGI falls into this catagory (and many of the dual CPU systems are actually unconnected dual nodes from larger systems.) IIRC ASCI-Red (the first Teraflop supercomputer) actually runs on something like the CC model. It's made of dual CPU PII systems (actually, it started with PPros and was upgraded with those weird PPro form-factor PII Xeons) but acts something like a single system image. It's a bit more complicated then that since the service portion runs an OSF/1 derivative in a sort of single system image mode, but most nodes run a lightweight dedicated OS. The systems is connected in a sort of 2.5d mesh (the .5 is from dual node boards) with a custom interconnect running at something like 400MB/sec. The funny thing is that Intel ment the hardware to run MS Wolfpack NT clusters. Apparently that project died when housekeeping messaging saturated the bus with only 13 nodes active (each rack had room for 32 boards). In many way's I think this system is a predicessor to the blade server concept everyone is trying to convince us is so revolutionary. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9G5EIXY6L6fI4GtQRAjOGAKDNhvyhHEDsv/XWNO6dAllfiUq4PQCfbcjh VVOdTz5ZU8F9KktJOg3hqKE= =vBmB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 16: 1:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from overcee.wemm.org (12-232-114-102.client.attbi.com [12.232.114.102]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580FD37B400; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F3B3390F; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Julian Elischer , "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters In-Reply-To: <3D1B7391.38F10284@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:01:24 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20020627230124.4F3B3390F@overcee.wemm.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > Julian Elischer wrote: > > Not "overly impressed" is not quite accurate.. > > > > "not sure that it was relevant to us" is more to the point > > > > He was against making the system scale to N processors where N is a large > > number, stating that if corrupted the system too much to have > > such fine grained locking, and that such large-scale > > MP situations should be achieved with clusters of "Small-N" > > machines, connected together by higher level constructs. > > > > I did take some mental notes from the meeting. > > e.g. "make sure we don't make our kernel TOO fine grained. > > You should read the slides at http://www.bitmover.com/cc-pitch/ ; > it should take you all of four minutes, if you skip the loading > of the picture in slide 29, or if you have a fast link. Yes, he does make a good case, and the dangers that he talks about are one of the things that we keep in mind. We made a concious decision to avoid going crazy with locks. We are not targeting 10,000 cpu systems (4 or even 8 would be really nice though as long as it isn't too expensive). Clustering or the SSI as he describes would also be nice to have, but we do not have sufficient active developer resources to throw at it yet. Having said that, let the paper speak for itself. Otherwise we'll be arguing acronyms and trying to classify system designs etc for weeks. Less talking and more doing would be much better. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 17:37:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from www.xyz.com (www.xyz.com [199.26.172.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5391137B4E6 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.xyz.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.xyz.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id g5S0ZJmP098253; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nerd@xyz.com) Message-Id: <200206280035.g5S0ZJmP098253@www.xyz.com> To: "Gary Thorpe" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG From: nerd@xyz.com Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:18:31 EDT." Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:35:19 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So you know where I'm coming from, I used to be an engineer in the base OS group (I owned the disk driver) at Sequent, the company with the best NUMA product out there even if we went the way of Beta VCRs. >The slides seem to be talking about NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) >machines which use CC (Cache Coherancy). These types of machines implement a >cluster purely in hardware from what I have read of them (single memory >address space is really distributed shared memory coordinated in hardware by >high speed switches etc) and use much faster/lower latency communication >methods. Examples would be SGI's Origin2000 and Origin3000 and maybe Sun's >Starfire line. The big advantage is scaling and redundancy, since no one >part of teh system is essential for the whole thing working (which is how >clusters should also work ideally). We (Sequent) were the first and best implementation out there with our NUMA-Q line... SGI & Sun both rely on huge memory backbones rather than finesse in software to achieve performance and they still fall short. DG tried too but I've heard nothing of them of late, sort of like the US vice presidents (quick, name the last 4). NUMA buys you no redundancy in the real sense of the word, that is, the hardware architecture is more complex and thus more likely to fail. Of course since you have a number of quads (or whatever an implementation may chose for the basic unit) once you've had a hardware fault you can easily remove a single quad and reboot. Unfortunately your uptime requirements have gone to hell the second a reboot is needed. As far as scaling goes, you are right, code with minimal SMP awareness (Oracle) running on a top notch OS will scale incredibly well. >I think this ties in to Mr. Lambert's question about the future of FreeBSD >very much. I think the NUMA model will eventually dominate all future large >systems in the next 10 years (and SMP will come to be standard on small >systems) and FreBSD will probably have to run efficiently on them to compete >with Linux etc. Having seemless clusters (by this I mean clusters that work >as a single system with one system image and identity) would probably be a >an interesting problem also, since only a few OSes have made any serious >attempt at implementing them. PVM, MPI, and MOSIX cannot for example migrate >I/O among machines (network load balancing maybe?). *TO ME* clustering and single memory image are contradictory. You cluster for redundancy, that is to get rid of any and all single points of failure. If the janitor trips over a power cord thus taking a big bite out of your memory space you'll quickly realize that this is not redundancy. At Sequent we found that the #1 key to scalability in a NUMA world was to NEVER move memory from one quad to the next. This means that programs should try to migrate between procs on the same quad if possible, only move off quad as a last resort. Memory allocation has to be very aware of the fact that it is running on a collection of SMP boxen with high costs to go from proc-to-proc and prohibitive costs to go from quad-to-quad. Of course it follows that I/O must never be allowed to move over the memory backplane if possible. We had quad aware routing at all layers of the I/O stack to achieve this. Of course YMMV. Last I looked neither Sun nor SGI had figured out how to squeeze the performance and scalability that we had. IBM who bought, chewed up, and then threw Sequent away didn't seem to have the corporate acuity to realize that there were lessons to be learned from small companies. Oh well, I'm bitter, sue me, no, forget that, IBM probably will. In another email on the same thread, Matt Dillon wrote: >NUMA then becomes just another, faster transport mechanism. That is >the direction I believe the BSDs will take... transparent clustering >with NUMA transport, network transport, or a hybrid of both. Matt: If you don't have a single memory immage you don't have NUMA. If you do have it then the transport mechanism will be saturated just moving "RAM" around and will not be available for network, I/O or whatever else. -michael michael at michael dot galassi dot org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 21:42:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 357D037B406 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f43.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B175443E06 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gat7634@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:42:00 -0700 Received: from 149.99.118.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 04:41:58 GMT X-Originating-IP: [149.99.118.139] From: "Gary Thorpe" To: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 00:41:58 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2002 04:42:00.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[245BA4A0:01C21E5E] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: Brooks Davis >To: Terry Lambert >CC: Jonathan Lemon ,Julian Elischer >,"Greg 'groggy' Lehey" , >arch@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:26:16 -0700 > [...] > > The 65,536 processor machine that Good Year built for modelling > > laminar airflow on the full shuttle airframe was purpose built > > hardware with a seperation of 2. So were most of the Connection > > Machine series from Thinking Machines, Inc.. > >For things you can actually buy, anything over 2 CPUs from SGI falls into >this catagory (and many of the dual CPU systems are actually unconnected >dual nodes from larger systems.) Which is how redundancy *can* be implemented in a NUMA machine. Since nothing is centralized (no main cpu or memory bus to share), it should be possible to make the system more easily resistant to hardware failure. > >IIRC ASCI-Red (the first Teraflop supercomputer) actually runs >on something like the CC model. It's made of dual CPU PII systems >(actually, it started with PPros and was upgraded with those weird PPro >form-factor PII Xeons) but acts something like a single system image. >It's a bit more complicated then that since the service portion runs an >OSF/1 derivative in a sort of single system image mode, but most nodes >run a lightweight dedicated OS. You mean like a microkernel? I have seen references to "cellular" computing, where each node has its own microkernel to do low management for that node and have all the nodes's microkernels cooperate to have a functioning system. Isn't this fundamentally different from how Linux/FreeBSD work? _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 21:54: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66F337B405 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3159443E09 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:53:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: from apollo.backplane.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.4/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5S4riT4002879; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon@apollo.backplane.com) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.12.4/8.12.3/Submit) id g5S4rioB002878; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:53:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200206280453.g5S4rioB002878@apollo.backplane.com> To: nerd@xyz.com Cc: "Gary Thorpe" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters References: <200206280035.g5S0ZJmP098253@www.xyz.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :In another email on the same thread, Matt Dillon wrote: : :>NUMA then becomes just another, faster transport mechanism. That is :>the direction I believe the BSDs will take... transparent clustering :>with NUMA transport, network transport, or a hybrid of both. : :Matt: If you don't have a single memory immage you don't have NUMA. :If you do have it then the transport mechanism will be saturated just :moving "RAM" around and will not be available for network, I/O or :whatever else. : :-michael : :michael at michael dot galassi dot org Well, I wasn't trying to intimate that programs could migrate willy nilly across the cluster. I was just saying that NUMA is roughly equivalent to clustering in terms of deterministic program and OS design (basically what you said about never migrating outside of a quad), so its better to design an OS or an application to run well in a clustered environment, which covers NUMA, rather then just a NUMA environment. My opinion in regards to clustering closely matches what you said. I am heavily into peer-to-peer quorum-write based infrastructure designs that can survive machines going on and off line willy nilly in a cluster without glitching the 'application' running on top of the infrastructure. I still intend to get the database technology I developed at Backplane Inc (which is exactly the above) into the open-source world. In anycase, I have great respect for Sequent. When I was at Berkeley working on Postgres we had a (I think) 16 processor (486 based) sequent and it blew away everything else the university had at the time. The only thing that ran 'slow' was the final link line in the build :-) -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Jun 27 22: 1:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4847637B405 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:01:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f69.law3.hotmail.com [209.185.241.69]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F146D43E06 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gat7634@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 27 Jun 2002 22:01:50 -0700 Received: from 149.99.118.139 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 05:01:50 GMT X-Originating-IP: [149.99.118.139] From: "Gary Thorpe" To: nerd@xyz.com Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 01:01:50 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2002 05:01:50.0894 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9DB1CE0:01C21E60] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: nerd@xyz.com >To: "Gary Thorpe" >CC: arch@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters >Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:35:19 -0700 > >So you know where I'm coming from, I used to be an engineer in the >base OS group (I owned the disk driver) at Sequent, the company with >the best NUMA product out there even if we went the way of Beta VCRs. > [...] > >We (Sequent) were the first and best implementation out there with our >NUMA-Q line... SGI & Sun both rely on huge memory backbones rather >than finesse in software to achieve performance and they still fall >short. DG tried too but I've heard nothing of them of late, sort of >like the US vice presidents (quick, name the last 4). > >NUMA buys you no redundancy in the real sense of the word, that is, >the hardware architecture is more complex and thus more likely to >fail. Of course since you have a number of quads (or whatever an >implementation may chose for the basic unit) once you've had a >hardware fault you can easily remove a single quad and reboot. This is by design. How about this scenario: if node A fails, its CPUs/memory/resources are marked as unusable, all the active tasks that were running that can be restarted from checkpointed data are migrated to new nodes and restarted, system continues. >Unfortunately your uptime requirements have gone to hell the second a >reboot is needed. As far as scaling goes, you are right, code with >minimal SMP awareness (Oracle) running on a top notch OS will scale >incredibly well. > [...] > >*TO ME* clustering and single memory image are contradictory. You >cluster for redundancy, that is to get rid of any and all single >points of failure. If the janitor trips over a power cord thus taking >a big bite out of your memory space you'll quickly realize that this >is not redundancy. From a hardware view, not really. Clusters typically use ethernet or some other network technology for inter-node communications. NUMA machines use a custom, high speed switching fabric (can this be considered a network? maybe...) to connect node memories into a hierarchy. The major difference is the performance, but *in theory* (and in my mind at least) they can be treated similarly. Nodes will have to work somewhat independently in a NUMA machine anyway, just like nodes in a traditional cluster. NUMA just makes a high speed cluster look like a single machine (at least for SGIs machines from what I can tell). >At Sequent we found that the #1 key to scalability in a NUMA world was >to NEVER move memory from one quad to the next. This means that >programs should try to migrate between procs on the same quad if >possible, only move off quad as a last resort. Memory allocation has >to be very aware of the fact that it is running on a collection of SMP >boxen with high costs to go from proc-to-proc and prohibitive costs to >go from quad-to-quad. Of course it follows that I/O must never be >allowed to move over the memory backplane if possible. We had quad >aware routing at all layers of the I/O stack to achieve this. This is analagous to how nodes in a cluster work! Same issues, except I/O can never be migarted in a cluster because of awful performance. >Of course YMMV. Last I looked neither Sun nor SGI had figured out how >to squeeze the performance and scalability that we had. IBM who >bought, chewed up, and then threw Sequent away didn't seem to have the >corporate acuity to realize that there were lessons to be learned from >small companies. Oh well, I'm bitter, sue me, no, forget that, IBM >probably will. > >In another email on the same thread, Matt Dillon wrote: > > >NUMA then becomes just another, faster transport mechanism. That is > >the direction I believe the BSDs will take... transparent clustering > >with NUMA transport, network transport, or a hybrid of both. > >Matt: If you don't have a single memory immage you don't have NUMA. >If you do have it then the transport mechanism will be saturated just >moving "RAM" around and will not be available for network, I/O or >whatever else. Nodes with local memory doing expensive inter-node communications. In a cluster, not taking this into account leads to 'network congestion' and poor performance (but this hierarchy is explicit to the OS and applications). In a NUMA machine, not taking this into account leads to switching fabric congestion and poor performance (but this hierarchy is hidden from applicatons but still explicit to the OS). Note: it is possible to make a cluster transparent to applications (MOSIX does this partly). If this is done, what it makes it hugely different from a NUMA 'machine' in terms of the way they work besides speed? > >-michael > >michael at michael dot galassi dot org _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 28 9:54:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294D737B405 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail15.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.215]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3578443E06 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 12929 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2002 18:11:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail15.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 26 Jun 2002 18:11:07 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g5QIB6b70191; Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:11:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200206201035.g5KAZ53i029301@rina.r.dl.itc.u-tokyo.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:11:09 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Seigo Tanimura Subject: RE: multiple threads for interrupts Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 20-Jun-2002 Seigo Tanimura wrote: > At the moment, each interrupt type (hardware and swi) has only one > kernel thread to handle interrupts. This can be a potential > bottleneck in an SMP host because virtually only up to one processor > can handle interrupts. > > One solution is to run multiple threads for each of the interrupt > types. Since I noticed this issue first during my work of network > locking, I have been tweaking the swi subsystem so that it runs > multiple threads for an swi type. For those who are interested, the > patch can be found at: > > http://people.FreeBSD.org/~tanimura/patches/swipool.diff.gz > > While I worked on only swis, hardware interrupts should suffer from > the same issue as well. Thus it would be better to tweak the general > interrupt mechanism rather than only the swi subsystem. I will see > how that works in the next few days. > > Comments and flames are welcome. Thanks a lot. I think this is mostly a feature rather than a bug. Allowing more than one handler to execute at a time requires you to use a semaphore or some such to coordinate when you actually enable the interrupt source again. I also think that you are better off waiting for KSE to finish and for us to support per-CPU runqueues with binding so that for processes where it makes sense to do this (like netisr and possibly the cam stuff, ktrace is another potential candidate), you use bound per-cpu threads that still belong to the same process to do this. FWIW, Solaris doesn't use multiple threads for a shared interrupt, instead, when an ithread is awakened, it is bound to the CPU receiving the interrupt until it finishes. If you don't have a copy of Solaris Internals I would recommend getting a copy. :) We don't have to be the next Solaris, but we can learn a lot by looking at it. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 28 10:19:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F2437B405 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BEC43E0A for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brdavis@odin.ac.hmc.edu) Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (IDENT:brdavis@localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5SHJLri031770; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:19:21 -0700 Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5SHJLMR031769; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:19:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:19:21 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Gary Thorpe Cc: brooks@one-eyed-alien.net, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Larry McVoy's slides on cache coherent clusters Message-ID: <20020628101921.C26852@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="H8ygTp4AXg6deix2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from gat7634@hotmail.com on Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:41:58AM -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) on odin.ac.hmc.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --H8ygTp4AXg6deix2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 12:41:58AM -0400, Gary Thorpe wrote: > >IIRC ASCI-Red (the first Teraflop supercomputer) actually runs > >on something like the CC model. It's made of dual CPU PII systems > >(actually, it started with PPros and was upgraded with those weird PPro > >form-factor PII Xeons) but acts something like a single system image. > >It's a bit more complicated then that since the service portion runs an > >OSF/1 derivative in a sort of single system image mode, but most nodes > >run a lightweight dedicated OS. >=20 > You mean like a microkernel? I have seen references to "cellular" computi= ng,=20 > where each node has its own microkernel to do low management for that nod= e=20 > and have all the nodes's microkernels cooperate to have a functioning=20 > system. Isn't this fundamentally different from how Linux/FreeBSD work? I'm actually not sure what the nodes run. I think it was called something like SunMOS. The idea is that since there is only one user per node, you don't want to waste cycles on things like memory protection if you can avoid it. The front end was UNIX from a user perspective, though I'm not sure if it was unix or microkernel underneath. My work was supposed to be writing tests for APIs, but mostly ended up being writing instructions on running the flakey hardware (it was supposed to be debugged by the windows people by the time we got it, but their project got cancled.) -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --H8ygTp4AXg6deix2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9HJqYXY6L6fI4GtQRAkpQAKCHEyrsSXiKbH/SdbvkZT/xQlmL5ACeKtHI quEEwE3b7eGfaJbQog6QMdg= =hHmA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --H8ygTp4AXg6deix2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 28 11:42: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A718037B406 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.ksc.th.com (mail3.ksc.th.com [203.155.0.234]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E49843E34 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from easytoberich01@yahoo.com) Received: from ksc.th.com ([203.107.246.47]) by mail3.ksc.th.com (8.12.1/8.12.0) with SMTP id g5SIYRfe007846 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:40:52 +0700 Message-Id: <200206281840.g5SIYRfe007846@mail3.ksc.th.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:42:56 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org From: easytoberich01@yahoo.com (international e-business) Subject: สำหรับผู้ที่ต้องการโอกาสในการเปลี่ยนแปลงชีวิต Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG !!!!! Part-Time Job!! สำหรับนักเรียน นักศึกษา และผู้ทำงานประจำ คุณต้องการงานแบบนี้บ้างไหม…?? -งาน parttime ทำงานที่บ้านได้ ถ้าคุณใช้ Internet เป็น -ทำงานเพียงวันละ 2-3 ชม. -รายได้ 5,000 – 15,000 บาท ถ้าคุณเป็นคนหนึ่งที่ทำงานประจำหรือยังไม่มีงานทำ นักศึกษาที่กำลังศึกษาอยู่ ผู้ว่างงาน หรือผู้ที่ยังพอมีเวลาว่างจากงานประจำ มีคุณสมบัติเบื้องต้นดังนี้ 1. มีทัศนคติที่ดี 2. พร้อมที่จะเรียนรู้ เนื่องจากเป็นระบบใหม่จึงต้องให้มีการอบรมให้ตามความเหมาะสม 3. ต้องการที่จะทำงานอย่างจริงจัง อยากที่จะเปลี่ยนฐานะทางการเงินของตนเอง และอยากมีรายได้จากการทำงานตรงนี้จริงๆ ทุกอย่างเป็นไปได้ ใน http://www.geocities.com/getchances2000/ อย่า !…………….. เป็นแค่เพียงคนที่นั่งรอโอกาส To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Jun 28 13:14:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B9637B401; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D2043E14; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0574.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.64] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17O28N-0003tK-00; Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:14:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1CC378.5377CDB9@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:13:44 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Baldwin Cc: Seigo Tanimura , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: multiple threads for interrupts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Baldwin wrote: > > While I worked on only swis, hardware interrupts should suffer from > > the same issue as well. Thus it would be better to tweak the general > > interrupt mechanism rather than only the swi subsystem. I will see > > how that works in the next few days. > > > > Comments and flames are welcome. Thanks a lot. > > I think this is mostly a feature rather than a bug. Allowing more than > one handler to execute at a time requires you to use a semaphore or some > such to coordinate when you actually enable the interrupt source again. This is only apriori true, if you know the interrupt is shared; I think there might be a way around it, as well, beased on thread counting, but the easies way is a counting semaphore that is reset by threads and triggers an action on the 1->0 boundary. Meanwhile, the threads for the handing of a shared interrupt for some number of devices should be able to proceed to completion simultaneously, unless they have contention for a resource (guess it's a good things ISA interrupts aren't shared ;^)). > I also think that you are better off waiting for KSE to finish and for > us to support per-CPU runqueues with binding so that for processes where > it makes sense to do this (like netisr and possibly the cam stuff, ktrace > is another potential candidate), you use bound per-cpu threads that still > belong to the same process to do this. THis, I really agree with. Without the ability to show a genuine, measurable improvement from going down too far down this road to back up easily, it's really something that you have to be fearful about. I still have not seen one research paper indicating that Interrupt Threads actually improve the overall performance of a system. They are a clever workaround for a chokepoint which might not be a bottleneck. > FWIW, Solaris doesn't use multiple > threads for a shared interrupt, instead, when an ithread is awakened, it > is bound to the CPU receiving the interrupt until it finishes. If you > don't have a copy of Solaris Internals I would recommend getting a > copy. :) It's a good book, event hough Solaris 9 changes again. I'll also note that they have "invented" the buffer cache seperate from the VM (again), to get around the lack of working set quotas, so some things in that book need to be taken with a grain of salt... > We don't have to be the next Solaris, but we can learn a lot by looking > at it. Exactly. I learn things from looking at Microsoft, which most people treat as if they themselves were vampires and Microsoft direct sunlight. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 15:14:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D81C37B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097D543E09 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0102.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.102] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OQUI-0007LQ-00 for arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:14:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:13:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Doug Barton wrote: > Subject: We're famous >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=70&e=2&cid=70&u=/cn/20020629/tc_cn/940585 Sean Eric Fagan and I discussed this several years ago, and we discussed it again the other day, before this attack hit. It looks like it's an idea whose time has come. We've identified a number of issues that might make doing this problematic, and on which there needs to be feedback: o Java; specifically, JITs may rely on an executable stack. Neither of us knows if this is true, for sure. o FORTH? Same question. o Signals o Julian's new threads patches o Multiple architecture support Right now, SEF points out (and I concur) that the only portion of the system that seems to care about having an executable stack is the signal trampoline. I would imagine that the trampoline for the user space threads scheduler for KSE based threading will (does) have the same problem. For signals, this is easy: copy SVR4, and modify the signal functions to pass in a return address, then disable the execute bits on stack pages and see whose head blows up. Frankly, I'm very surprised to discover that OpenBSD has not already done this. Opinions? Patches from people who know and love the signals facility on Alpha, SPARC64, PPC, etc.? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 15:50:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEBF437B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6.locore.ca (k6.locore.ca [198.96.117.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C1343E09 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jake@k6.locore.ca) Received: from k6.locore.ca (jake@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by k6.locore.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5TMtuDj092888; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:55:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jake@k6.locore.ca) Received: (from jake@localhost) by k6.locore.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5TMtson092887; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:55:54 -0400 From: Jake Burkholder To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:13:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Apparently, On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:13:58PM -0700, Terry Lambert said words to the effect of; > Doug Barton wrote: > > Subject: We're famous > >http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=70&e=2&cid=70&u=/cn/20020629/tc_cn/940585 > > > Sean Eric Fagan and I discussed this several years ago, and we > discussed it again the other day, before this attack hit. It > looks like it's an idea whose time has come. > > We've identified a number of issues that might make doing this > problematic, and on which there needs to be feedback: > > o Java; specifically, JITs may rely on an executable > stack. Neither of us knows if this is true, for > sure. > > o FORTH? Same question. > > o Signals > > o Julian's new threads patches > > o Multiple architecture support > > Right now, SEF points out (and I concur) that the only portion > of the system that seems to care about having an executable stack > is the signal trampoline. I would imagine that the trampoline > for the user space threads scheduler for KSE based threading will > (does) have the same problem. > > For signals, this is easy: copy SVR4, and modify the signal > functions to pass in a return address, then disable the execute > bits on stack pages and see whose head blows up. > > Frankly, I'm very surprised to discover that OpenBSD has not > already done this. > > Opinions? Patches from people who know and love the signals > facility on Alpha, SPARC64, PPC, etc.? The sparc64 signal trampoline is already in libc, I'm running a kernel which maps the stack non-executable locally. Jake To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 16: 9:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB0037B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB02243E06 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@elvis.mu.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 99881AE275; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:09:18 -0700 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jake Burkholder Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020629230918.GN97638@elvis.mu.org> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Jake Burkholder [020629 15:51] wrote: > > > > For signals, this is easy: copy SVR4, and modify the signal > > functions to pass in a return address, then disable the execute > > bits on stack pages and see whose head blows up. > > > > Frankly, I'm very surprised to discover that OpenBSD has not > > already done this. > > > > Opinions? Patches from people who know and love the signals > > facility on Alpha, SPARC64, PPC, etc.? > > The sparc64 signal trampoline is already in libc, I'm running a kernel > which maps the stack non-executable locally. I recently (last week or two) forwarded a cvs commitlog from NetBSD which seems to have solved this. http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=462972+0+archive/2002/freebsd-arch/20020623.freebsd-arch Have you guys had a look? Sorry if this is red herring, I haven't investigated it deeply. -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' Tax deductible donations for FreeBSD: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 16:19:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA76F37B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6.locore.ca (k6.locore.ca [198.96.117.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAAA43E06 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jake@k6.locore.ca) Received: from k6.locore.ca (jake@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by k6.locore.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g5TNOeDj093099; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:24:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jake@k6.locore.ca) Received: (from jake@localhost) by k6.locore.ca (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g5TNOdPP093098; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:24:39 -0400 From: Jake Burkholder To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020629192438.J71376@locore.ca> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629230918.GN97638@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020629230918.GN97638@elvis.mu.org>; from bright@mu.org on Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:09:18PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Apparently, On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 04:09:18PM -0700, Alfred Perlstein said words to the effect of; > * Jake Burkholder [020629 15:51] wrote: > > > > > > For signals, this is easy: copy SVR4, and modify the signal > > > functions to pass in a return address, then disable the execute > > > bits on stack pages and see whose head blows up. > > > > > > Frankly, I'm very surprised to discover that OpenBSD has not > > > already done this. > > > > > > Opinions? Patches from people who know and love the signals > > > facility on Alpha, SPARC64, PPC, etc.? > > > > The sparc64 signal trampoline is already in libc, I'm running a kernel > > which maps the stack non-executable locally. > > I recently (last week or two) forwarded a cvs commitlog from NetBSD > which seems to have solved this. > > http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=462972+0+archive/2002/freebsd-arch/20020623.freebsd-arch > > Have you guys had a look? Sorry if this is red herring, I haven't > investigated it deeply. Yes, I looked at it. Its mostly about standardizing the naming of the userland trampoline to include the type of the arguments it expects, sigcontext or ucontext, and a version number. It doesn't say much about how the address of the trampoline would be passed to the kernel, which is more important. I just used a sysarch call in crt0, which could be optimized to be done just before the first call to sigaction. FWIW, the netbsd scheduler activations upcall trampoline is copied out to the stack with the signal code (kse doesn't use the same kind of upcall trampoline), which I expect is their motivation for changes. Jake To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 16:20:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015CB37B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc03.attbi.com (sccrmhc03.attbi.com [204.127.202.63]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4016D43E09 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@elischer.org) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org ([12.232.206.8]) by sccrmhc03.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020629232010.UZNV903.sccrmhc03.attbi.com@InterJet.elischer.org>; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:20:10 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA81811; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:14:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Jake Burkholder Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? In-Reply-To: <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 29 Jun 2002, Jake Burkholder wrote: > Apparently, On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 03:13:58PM -0700, > Terry Lambert said words to the effect of; > > o Julian's new threads patches The KSE does not upcall via a trampoline on the stack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 16:26:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B07F37B401 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CD9143E09 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17ORbP-0000M8-00; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:26:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:26:03 -0700 To: Jake Burkholder Cc: Terry Lambert , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Bill Huey Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Bill Huey Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:55:54PM -0400, Jake Burkholder wrote: > > Doug Barton wrote: > > o Java; specifically, JITs may rely on an executable > > stack. Neither of us knows if this is true, for > > sure. I didn't get to see the original post, but... Hehe, I definitely know the answer to this. The HotSpot compiler uses OSR (on stack routines) to deal with certain exception situations. If that doesn't mean that it puts a routine on a stack for execution, then I don't know what does. Many modern language runtimes use these kind of conventions, so it's bound to create problems with other systems. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 17:51:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9957C37B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDA243E06 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:51:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0416.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.193.161] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #2) id 17OSw0-0002RZ-00; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:51:25 -0700 Message-ID: <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 17:50:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Huey Cc: Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Huey wrote: > On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 06:55:54PM -0400, Jake Burkholder wrote: > > > Doug Barton wrote: > > > o Java; specifically, JITs may rely on an executable > > > stack. Neither of us knows if this is true, for > > > sure. > > I didn't get to see the original post, but... > > Hehe, I definitely know the answer to this. The HotSpot compiler > uses OSR (on stack routines) to deal with certain exception > situations. If that doesn't mean that it puts a routine on a stack > for execution, then I don't know what does. Many modern language > runtimes use these kind of conventions, so it's bound to create > problems with other systems. As I said in the original post, Sean and I are both aware of the possibility that some software will be unable to run after this. One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on the file (e.g. a "chflags"). My pet fears were Java, LISP, and Forth, and that's just the short list. The real question is whether or not it would interfere with KSE itself (Julian says "no"), and whether or not it would interfere with anything else. I know that it will break signals, unless the signals system is modified to pass the return address as an argument. Stepping on that code is really dangerous now (as I pointed out to Sean), sine it's one of the places that's really in flux (particularly on the Alpha), according to Julian. All of this adds up to "why it's an appropriate topic for -arch instead of just a set of patches that does it". Jake says he's running with his stack this way (locally) on the SPARC64. I guess I'd like to know why the patches are only local (if there is something he knows it will break, or is holding it back for some other reason), and what problems people see for i386. It would be really nice to be immune from stack overflow based hacks. This also implys that we need to make sure that anything that mmap's code and data (e.g. dlopen) doesn't set the execute attribute on the data pages. This is more of a problem in third party code that implements its own modules system from scratch. Is this a worthwhile project? It seems to me that it would fix the "Apache problem" that led to the news article about FreeBSD being exploitable. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 18:19:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C73B37B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gnuppy.monkey.org (wsip68-15-8-100.sd.sd.cox.net [68.15.8.100]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2064243E06 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billh@gnuppy.monkey.org) Received: from billh by gnuppy.monkey.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17OTMZ-0000Ur-00; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:18:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 18:18:51 -0700 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Bill Huey Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020630011851.GA1889@gnuppy.monkey.org> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Bill Huey Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > The real question is whether or not it would interfere with KSE > itself (Julian says "no"), and whether or not it would interfere > with anything else. I know that it will break signals, unless > the signals system is modified to pass the return address as an > argument. Stepping on that code is really dangerous now (as I > pointed out to Sean), sine it's one of the places that's really > in flux (particularly on the Alpha), according to Julian. That's probably up to the UTS system itself and how it handles upcalls. I don't remember anything in the uthreads using something like that currently, so that answer to that is probably "no" at this time. That's up the UTS folks in question. > It would be really nice to be immune from stack overflow based > hacks. That probably impossible in "C" without consideration to the language facilities and some kind of runtime bounds checking. bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 19:40:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAD037B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EAFE43E0A for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.4/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g5U2eKtL051275; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.4/Submit) id g5U2eJSk051274; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:40:19 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Bill Huey , Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020629194019.B51177@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , Terry Lambert , Bill Huey , Jake Burkholder , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack > pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an > alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on > the file (e.g. a "chflags"). Send a set of patches to the various crt1's and I can add the GCC option so we can test this out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 19:48: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DED637B401 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukr.net (pc03073.kr.hs-niederrhein.de [194.94.121.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4211443E26 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 19:48:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from MAILER-DAEMON22439@ukr.net) From: "Jessy" To: Subject: Let me... (28677) X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: The Bat! 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 22:40:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6108937B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leviathan.cnchost.com (leviathan.cnchost.com [207.155.252.18]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE0543E13 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bakul@bitblocks.com) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by leviathan.cnchost.com id BAA20480; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 01:40:27 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200206300540.BAA20480@leviathan.cnchost.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:13:58 PDT." <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 22:40:23 -0700 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG GCC uses trampolines to handle addresses of nested functions. This is a method that allows you to avoid passing a static link of a nested function as a separate (but hidden) arg. (For the benefit of people who don't know this technique) Consider: int f(int(*p)(int), int x) { return p(2*x); } int g(int a) { int b; int h(int c) { return b + c; } b = a*a; return f(&h, 2); } int i(int d) { return f(&g, 2); } Here h is a function nested within g. When g is called, it calls h and passes it the address of h. When h is called from f, it must have access to locals in the containing g's frame. Normally you'd passed a hidden static link (address of g's frame). Alternately you can construct a trampoline function on the stack and pass its address (compile the above example and see for yourself). Since this function is created at runtime, it has the necessary information to provide the right static link before calling g. By putting it on the stack it is removed upon return from g (i.e. no need to garbage collect it). For details please see gcc.info and http://master.debian.org/~karlheg/Usenix88-lexic.pdf I don't know if other compilers use this technique. You should ask on comp.lang.{lisp,scheme,functional,ada,pascal,misc,...} before going ahead with this change. In any case, IMHO you are patching the wrong thing. Any time you have more user mode threads than the kernel supplied ones, you can't say anything about where the actual stack is (since the stack switching must be done in user mode and the kernel can't play any stack segment switching games). Also, with threads there is not much point in having a stack segment that grows downward since threads may die in any order. As an example I have a simulation core where I can create as many threads as I want subject to memory limits (100K+ is no problem). I simply malloc() the stack for each thread. The point being, if you don't want an executable stack you must also not allow executable data segment since for a threaded program that is where a stack may be. This *will* contrain LISP + functional languages which create function closures on the fly or increase the cost of such function closure a lot. -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Jun 29 23:28:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7C937B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharmas.dhs.org (cpe-66-1-147-119.ca.sprintbbd.net [66.1.147.119]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53ACA43E13 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adsharma@sharmas.dhs.org) Received: by sharmas.dhs.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 794345E931; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:31:57 -0700 From: Arun Sharma To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? Message-ID: <20020630063157.GA16963@sharma-home.net> References: <3D1E28ED.B67A5271@FreeBSD.org> <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> <20020629185554.I71376@locore.ca> <20020629232603.GA1361@gnuppy.monkey.org> <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D1E55E5.998DCEBA@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 29, 2002 at 05:50:45PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > One way to potentially work around this is to allow the stack > pages to be marked executable by explicit linking with an > alternate crt0.o, or, more usefully, by way of an attribute on > the file (e.g. a "chflags"). Linux IA64 took the chflags approach. David Mosberger called it chatr (there is HP-UX utility of the same name). Basically a elf header flag is used to tell the kernel that the stack needs to be executable. XFree86 had to be chatr'ed this way. -Arun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jun 30 0: 0: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6468537B400 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from overcee.wemm.org (12-232-114-102.client.attbi.com [12.232.114.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CD643E0A for ; Sat, 29 Jun 2002 23:59:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 092FD390F; Sun, 30 Jun 2002 00:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time to make the stack non-executable? In-Reply-To: <3D1E3126.C96FFAA5@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 00:00:05 -0700 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20020630070005.092FD390F@overcee.wemm.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > Sean Eric Fagan and I discussed this several years ago, and we > discussed it again the other day, before this attack hit. It > looks like it's an idea whose time has come. The Linux folks have been tinkering with this on and off for years. There's one problem. Making the stack not-executable only makes exploits a bit harder, but doesn't solve the problem. There is some nice executable trampoline code in the ELF PLT that can be abused to make libc do the execution part for you. ie: most stack overflow holes would still be exploitable. It just makes it a little harder since you can only push data instead of shellcode. But that's all there is to it, you push your args, the set the return address to point to the PLT trapoline and in most cases you are home. Making the stack non-executable is not the final solution. It just raises the bar a bit. Note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it, just do not have unrealistic expectations for it. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message