From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 28 0: 7:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5A837B400 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turbine.trit.org (turbine.trit.org [63.198.170.141]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6BF43E3B for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:07:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dima@trit.org) Received: from turbine.trit.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turbine.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDE63E1E for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:07:06 +0000 (UTC) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: devfs ruleset initialization at boot time (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/devfs devfs.8 devfs.c extern.h rule.c ) In-Reply-To: <200207280645.g6S6jUCo040872@freefall.freebsd.org>; from dd@FreeBSD.org on "Sat, 27 Jul 2002 23:45:30 -0700 (PDT)" Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:07:06 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20020728070706.4CDE63E1E@turbine.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wrote: > Log: > Implement this (quoted from the updated man page): If the first token > of a rule specification is a single dash (``-''), rules are read from > the standard input and the rest of the specification is ignored. phk originally suggested this as a way to copy rulesets (see the EXAMPLES section of the man page), but I think it might also be useful as a way to initialize rulesets from rc scripts. E.g., consider having something like this in rc.conf: devfs_ruleset_10="/some/file/with/rules" devfs_ruleset_20="/some/other/file/with/rules" and so on, a la ifconfig_*. I think this is pretty flexible, and doesn't have some of the downsides of doing something like rc.firewall (e.g.., mergemaster won't offer to obliterate your changes every time you ugprade). This scheme doesn't handle setting a ruleset on mount points, but I think that is best done in fstab, with a mount option that can set the default ruleset. Thoughts? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Jul 28 7:12:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C6E37B401 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D2543E5E for ; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.org) Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (uucp@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6SECW3H033895; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:12:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with UUCP id g6SECWMm033894; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 15:12:32 +0100 (BST) Received: from grimreaper.grondar.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6SD4lRZ001192; Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:04:47 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark@grimreaper.grondar.org) Message-Id: <200207281304.g6SD4lRZ001192@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Sam Leffler" Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: status of hardware crypto support References: <05c801c222d2$ad797550$52557f42@errno.com> In-Reply-To: <05c801c222d2$ad797550$52557f42@errno.com> ; from "Sam Leffler" "Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:46:16 PDT." Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 14:04:47 +0100 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is a short note about the status of my work to port openbsd's support > for hardware crypto devices to freebsd. I've had a patch available > for -stable for a while that provides the openbsd kernel framework and a > port of the device driver for various Hifn parts (e.g. 7751, 7951, 7811). > In the past few weeks I've made major progress changing the KAME IPSEC code > to use this framework, again in the style done by openbsd (using > continuations to break up the input and output packet processing paths). At > this point I have almost all aspects of IPv4-based IPSEC tested and working. > There are some minor issues like support of the old-style AH protocol and > keyed- MD5 and SHA1 AH algorithms, and I have yet to do any IPv6-based > testing. This is excellent! I have had a (stalled) crypto library (implemented as a loadable module) based on the OpenBSD code for quite a while. It sounds like you are further than me in getting to do something useful. Does your code implement the userland-usable /dev/crypto that OpenSSL can use? > In addition to the IPSEC work I've been talking to various hardware vendors > about support for their products in FreeBSD. I now have Hifn-based cards of > various flavors, and a Broadcom card for testing. I'm supposed to receive > more hardware in the near future. I will be porting drivers for each of > these cards from openbsd. If you want a hand with any of that, I'll be in a position to help in a very short while (once I come out of storage in a week). > Finally, I've been in touch with both openbsd and netbsd folks. My intent > is to provide a common API for in-kernel and user-mode access to hardware > crypto support. This will let everyone share application code (e.g. OpenSSL > already done by openbsd) and reduce the effort required to port device > drivers between the various systems. Cool! (I've started doing the /dev/crypto thing, but that has stalled because of employment issues). > All my work so far has been in -stable, but I hope to port the work > to -current soon. A goal is to get the kernel crypto device framework into > the 5.0 release. I've been in touch with the KAME folks and will continue > to discuss my IPSEC mods with them. If you need a hand for CURRENT, I'll be delighted to help. M -- o Mark Murray \_ O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 2:19: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 881BB37B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 02:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EXIC3.lse.ac.uk (exic3.lse.ac.uk [158.143.217.123]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4D6443E31; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 02:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from M.Tzouris@lse.ac.uk) Received: from ExF2.lse.ac.uk ([158.143.216.21]) by EXIC3.lse.ac.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:18:52 +0100 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.5762.3 Subject: MSc student, needs help from OS contributor! - 2nd request Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 10:18:51 +0100 Message-ID: <09EF96A44C0A7A4FB1D51C1B9DBF9B37468496@ExF2.pc.lse.ac.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: MSc student, needs help from OS contributor! - 2nd request Thread-Index: AcI24PQ/fwbfUI3LSqyqgHRlDYEZnw== From: "Tzouris,M" To: "Tzouris,M" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Jul 2002 09:18:52.0050 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4630720:01C236E0] Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SGVsbG8gYWdhaW4sDQogDQpJIHVwbG9hZGVkIGEgbmV3ZXIgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBteSBvbmxpbmUg cXVlc3Rpb25uYWlyZQ0KKGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubHNlLXN0dWRlbnRzLmFjLnVrL3R6b3VyaXMvb3Nz KSwgYW5kIEkgYW0gc2VhcmNoaW5nIGZvciBPcGVuDQpTb3VyY2UgY29udHJpYnV0b3JzIHdobyBt aWdodCBiZSBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIGFuc3dlcmluZyBpdC4gDQogDQpUaGUgcXVlc3Rpb25uYWly ZSBpcyBkZXNpZ25lZCBpbiBhIHdheSB0aGF0IGl0IHdvbid0IHJlcXVpcmUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIDEw IG1pbnV0ZXMgdG8gYmUgYW5zd2VyZWQuDQogDQpNeSBwcmV2aW91cyByZXF1ZXN0IGRpZG4ndCBo YXZlIHRoZSBleHBlY3RlZCByZXNwb25jZSwgc28geW91IGFyZSBraW5kbHkgYXNrZWQgdG8gYW5z d2VyIHRoaXMgb25lLiBJdCB3aWxsIHRha2UgeW91IGZvciBzdXJlIGxlc3MgdGhhbiAxMCBtaW51 dGVzIQ0KIA0KTXkgTVBoaWwvUGhEIHdoaWNoIGlzIGNvbW1lbmNpbmcgaW4gdGhlIHVwY29taW5n IE9jdG9iZXIsIHdpbGwgYmUgYmFzZWQNCm9uIG15IGN1cnJlbnQgcmVzZWFyY2guIFNvIGFzIHlv dSBjYW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB5b3VyIGhlbHAgaXMgcmVhbGx5DQppbXBvcnRhbnQgdG8gbWUuDQog DQpJZiB5b3UgYXJlIGEgY29udHJpYnV0b3IsIHlvdSBhcmUga2luZGx5IHJlcXVlc3RlZCB0byBm aWxsIGluIHRoaXMgcXVlc3Rpb25uYWlyZQ0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5sc2Utc3R1ZGVudHMuYWMudWsv dHpvdXJpcy9vc3MNCiANClRoYW5rIHlvdSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2ggaW4gYWR2YW5jZSBmb3IgeW91ciBo ZWxwLA0KDQpNZW5lbGFvcy4NCiANClBTOiBteSBiYWNrZ3JvdW5kOg0KSSBhbSBhbiBNU2Mgc3R1 ZGVudCBhdCB0aGUgTG9uZG9uIFNjaG9vbCBvZiBFY29ub21pY3MsIGRlcGFydG1lbnQgb2YNCklu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMsIExvbmRvbiwgVS5LLiAoaHR0cDovL2lzLmxzZS5hYy51aykgSSBh bSBjdXJyZW50bHkNCndyaXRpbmcgbXkgc3VtbWVyIGRpc3NlcnRhdGlvbiAoTVNjIHRoZXNpcykg b24gT3BlbiBTb3VyY2UuIFRoaXMgaXMNCndoZXJlIEkgbmVlZCB5b3VyIGhlbHAhDQogDQpJIHJl Y2VpdmVkIG15IEJzYyBpbiBDb21wdXRlciBTY2llbmNlIGZybyB0aGUgQXRoZW5zIFVuaXZlcnNp dHkgb2YNCkVjb25vbWljcyBhbmQgQnVzaW5lc3MgKGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuY3MuYWN1ZWIuZ3IpDQpT b21lIG9mIHRoZSBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gY292ZXJlZCBpbiBteSBCU2MgYXJlIHB1 Ymxpc2hlZCBoZXJlOg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5nZW9jaXRpZXMuY29tL3R6bW5sYW9zDQogDQo9PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQpNZW5lbGFvcyBHLiBUem91cmlzDQpH cmFkdWF0ZSBTdHVkZW50DQpEZXBhcnRtZW50IG9mIEluZm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMNCkxvbmRv biBTY2hvb2wgb2YgRWNvbm9taWNzIGFuZCBQb2xpdGljYWwgU2NpZW5jZQ0K To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 2:50:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E5D37B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 02:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2D343E31; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 02:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.6/8.11.2) id g6T9kUX09501; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:46:30 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:46:30 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Bruce Evans Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: install -d -C (was: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 make.conf.5 src/share/examples/etc make.conf) Message-ID: <20020729094629.GA94086@sunbay.com> References: <20020719121826.GA83942@sunbay.com> <20020719223359.W12927-100000@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020719223359.W12927-100000@gamplex.bde.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:55:56PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: >=20 > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 03:05:37PM +0300, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > ... > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 09:21:14PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > > On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > > > > > > > ru 2002/07/18 05:07:49 PDT > > > > > > > > > > Modified files: > > > > > etc Makefile > > > [...] > > > > > usr.sbin/ypserv Makefile > > > > > Log: > > > > > s/${INSTALL} -c/${INSTALL} ${COPY}/ > > > > > > > > Strongly unapproved by: bde. > > > > > > > > This change is to help work around the foot-shooting of making -d > > > > incompatible with -C and -p in install(1)'s flags. It abuses the o= ld > > > > ... > > > Since its first revision (install.1,v 1.7 and install.c,v 1.16 they > > > were incompatible). Later on, in rev. 1.26, it was made a no-op, >=20 > I think this makes -c vs -d moot. >=20 > > > just to support "INSTALL=3Dinstall -C" in /etc/make.conf. >=20 > -C is not really like -c. It really means "unbreak the default of !-c, > and preserve certain metadata". Preserving the metadata is the main > point of this option, but IIRC it was made as much like -c as possible > just as a first attempt to kill -c. >=20 > > > OpenBSD merged these changes and since then they still have them > > > incompatible. >=20 > That was probably a mistake. Certainly merging it all back was. -C > is our (half my) flag, so we should know its intended use :-). >=20 > > > There are two ways to proceed: > > > > > > 1. Rename COPY to INSTALL_COPY (that was my plan), optionally giving > > > it by default an empty value. This shouldn't harm third-party > > > makefiles as -c is now an effective no-op. But this would make > > > us even more compatible with OpenBSD that has: > > > > > > : INSTALL_COPY The old usage of this flag is obsolescent since ins= tall(1) > > > : now copies by default. However, it can also be use= d to > > > : specify that a file not be copied unless it is diff= erent > > > : (via the -p option). See install(1) for details. = This > > > : is to be used when building our own install script = so > > > : that the entire system can either be installed with= copies, > > > : or copy-if-different using a single knob. [-c] > > > > > OTOH, if we go this way we can get rid of ugly ${COPY} completely. >=20 > I'd like to get rid of it too. But not in RELENG_4. -c has been the def= ault > for long enough now in -current. As you know, there are various problems > in using the correctly named variable for install(1)'s flags (INSTALLFLAG= S) > to actually hold install's flags in a general way (mainly, this variable > already exists and is used in a non-general way). However, the old hack > of putting the flags in the same variable as the command still works well > except for the -[Cp] vs -d conflict. This depends on the flags not being > order-dependent. >=20 OK, -[CpS] are now ignored with -d, and I've dropped support for COPY. I have a question. Why COPY can't be removed from RELENG_4 as well? Ports that use COPY (there are many of them) will see it as an empty string. Cheers, --=20 Ruslan Ermilov Sysadmin and DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9RQ71Ukv4P6juNwoRApooAJ4pu7z2j4/woTNcpiSnjPJmFEXE1QCghr6Q iEBbokwr85ltx7LdB8WD1pk= =rh4K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wRRV7LY7NUeQGEoC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 5:38:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F333837B401 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC3C43E4A for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 05:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@starjuice.net) Received: from sheldonh by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local (Exim 4.10) id 17Z9oP-000Au2-00; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:39:45 +0200 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:39:45 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Dima Dorfman Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: devfs ruleset initialization at boot time (was: cvs commit: src/sbin/devfs devfs.8 devfs.c extern.h rule.c ) Message-ID: <20020729123945.GB41804@starjuice.net> Mail-Followup-To: Dima Dorfman , arch@freebsd.org References: <200207280645.g6S6jUCo040872@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020728070706.4CDE63E1E@turbine.trit.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020728070706.4CDE63E1E@turbine.trit.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On (2002/07/28 07:07), Dima Dorfman wrote: > > Log: > > Implement this (quoted from the updated man page): If the first token > > of a rule specification is a single dash (``-''), rules are read from > > the standard input and the rest of the specification is ignored. > > phk originally suggested this as a way to copy rulesets (see the > EXAMPLES section of the man page), but I think it might also be useful > as a way to initialize rulesets from rc scripts. E.g., consider > having something like this in rc.conf: From a standards point of view, I think it would be cleaner to provide a -f option to devfs(8) that allows the operator to specify the file from which to read rules. Sorry to keep sending these suggestions after you've already done the work. Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 7:59:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 802B037B400 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551A543E3B for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mux@freebsd.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1920) id 2C83EAE27E; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:59:32 -0700 From: Maxime Henrion To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: lsvfs(1) removal ? Message-ID: <20020729145932.GP42325@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I have been doing some work in my perforce mux_nmount branch on struct vfsconf. I had to create a struct xvfsconf for userland because the consequences of an ABI breakage for struct vfsconf are really horrible (in short, none of the mount(8) utilities would work). I've also redesigned the way it is exported to userland (vfs_sysctl() was just a huge pile of crap) and converted the userland utilities to use the new API. I was about to convert lsvfs(1) too but after having thought about it, I'd rather remove it entirely. It doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose except being able to tell which filesystem the running kernel supports, which can be as easily done with kldstat -v. So I intend to remove lsvfs(1) unless someone has sensible objections. Maxime To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 12:10:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203D937B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.com.br (cr20068160127.cable.net.co [200.68.160.127]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C7C5343E31; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atendimentoatendimento@bol.com.br) Reply-To: "Atendimento online" From: "Atendimento online" Subject: Reserva Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:27:51 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0195_01C234C1.64744870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-Id: <20020729190844.C7C5343E31@mx1.FreeBSD.org> To: undisclosed-recipients: ; Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0195_01C234C1.64744870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reserva imediata em seu hotel ? =20 Para que seus h=F3spedes possam ter a facilidade de fazer uma reserva = on-line,=20 estamos oferecendo o servi=E7o de atendimento on-line para seu hotel. 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------=_NextPart_000_0195_01C234C1.64744870-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 12:40:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2C4737B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3764043E3B; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TJc62D007778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:40:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5/Submit) id g6TJc5R9007773; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:38:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:38:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200207291938.g6TJc5R9007773@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: mux@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? X-Newsgroups: mit.lcs.mail.freebsd-arch In-Reply-To: Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article you write: >I was about to convert lsvfs(1) too but after having thought about it, >I'd rather remove it entirely. It doesn't seem to serve any useful >purpose except being able to tell which filesystem the running kernel >supports, which can be as easily done with kldstat -v. Yes, I object. You will note that the output of `lsvfs' has three columns. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | [G]enes make enzymes, and enzymes control the rates of wollman@lcs.mit.edu | chemical processes. Genes do not make ``novelty- Opinions not those of| seeking'' or any other complex and overt behavior. MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Stephen Jay Gould (1941-2002) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 13:16:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AF637B4B6; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5930143E4A; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:16:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from bde.zeta.org.au (bde.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.102]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA19804; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:16:45 +1000 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:21:17 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-X-Sender: bde@gamplex.bde.org To: Ruslan Ermilov Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Subject: Re: install -d -C (was: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 make.conf.5 src/share/examples/etc make.conf) In-Reply-To: <20020729094629.GA94086@sunbay.com> Message-ID: <20020730061741.S52629-100000@gamplex.bde.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:55:56PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > OTOH, if we go this way we can get rid of ugly ${COPY} completely. > > > > I'd like to get rid of it too. But not in RELENG_4. -c has been the default > > for long enough now in -current. As you know, there are various problems > > in using the correctly named variable for install(1)'s flags (INSTALLFLAGS) > > to actually hold install's flags in a general way (mainly, this variable > > already exists and is used in a non-general way). However, the old hack > > of putting the flags in the same variable as the command still works well > > except for the -[Cp] vs -d conflict. This depends on the flags not being > > order-dependent. > > > OK, -[CpS] are now ignored with -d, and I've dropped support for COPY. > I have a question. Why COPY can't be removed from RELENG_4 as well? > Ports that use COPY (there are many of them) will see it as an empty > string. -c hasn't been the default for so long in RELENG_4, so I think the change has too lrge a risk/reward ratio. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 13:37:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94B037B400 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56AC643E65 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 20863 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 20:37:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 29 Jul 2002 20:37:20 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TKbIuR051514; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:37:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200207291938.g6TJc5R9007773@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:37:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, mux@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29-Jul-2002 Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article you write: > >>I was about to convert lsvfs(1) too but after having thought about it, >>I'd rather remove it entirely. It doesn't seem to serve any useful >>purpose except being able to tell which filesystem the running kernel >>supports, which can be as easily done with kldstat -v. > > Yes, I object. > > You will note that the output of `lsvfs' has three columns. Which column do you want, the flags one? -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 13:54:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3323B37B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE4243E42; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TKsS2D008661 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:54:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5/Submit) id g6TKsSvq008658; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:54:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:54:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200207292054.g6TKsSvq008658@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? In-Reply-To: References: <200207291938.g6TJc5R9007773@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: >> [I wrote:] >> You will note that the output of `lsvfs' has three columns. > Which column do you want, the flags one? I actually want both the flags and the reference count, but I could live without the refcount (since a bit of groveling over the mount table can provide the same information). -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 14: 3:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4DA37B400 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail16.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.216]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168F343E67 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 2218 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 21:03:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail16.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 29 Jul 2002 21:03:50 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TL3nuR051615; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:03:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200207292054.g6TKsSvq008658@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29-Jul-2002 Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > >>> [I wrote:] >>> You will note that the output of `lsvfs' has three columns. > >> Which column do you want, the flags one? > > I actually want both the flags and the reference count, but I could > live without the refcount (since a bit of groveling over the mount > table can provide the same information). > mount | cut -d' ' -f 4 | sed -e 's/(\(.*\)[,)]/\1/' | uniq -c is one way of getting the refcount if you really want it. Why do you need a program to tell you that NFS is a network file system and procfs and devfs are synthetic? Do you have scripts that depend on this? It just seems weird cause it isn't really talking about what filesystems are mounted, but which ones are supported by the kernel and kldstat is a better candidate for that information. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 14:21:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA6137B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8699143E5E; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TLLN2D008899 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:21:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5/Submit) id g6TLLNUA008896; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:21:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:21:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200207292121.g6TLLNUA008896@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? In-Reply-To: References: <200207292054.g6TKsSvq008658@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > is one way of getting the refcount if you really want it. Why do > you need a program to tell you that NFS is a network file system > and procfs and devfs are synthetic? I want this information to be easily available for tools which might want to do something different for certain types of filesystem (e.g., avoid looking at them) without having to have compiled-in knowledge of the properties of every filesystem available. -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 14:36:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F1637B400 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ABBF43E5E for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:36:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mux@freebsd.org) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1920) id 67A1DAE1FE; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:36:30 -0700 From: Maxime Henrion To: Garrett Wollman Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? Message-ID: <20020729213630.GR42325@elvis.mu.org> References: <200207292054.g6TKsSvq008658@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <200207292121.g6TLLNUA008896@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200207292121.g6TLLNUA008896@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > > > is one way of getting the refcount if you really want it. Why do > > you need a program to tell you that NFS is a network file system > > and procfs and devfs are synthetic? > > I want this information to be easily available for tools which might > want to do something different for certain types of filesystem (e.g., > avoid looking at them) without having to have compiled-in knowledge of > the properties of every filesystem available. Then these tools can just use the sysctl's that lsvfs(1) is using to get this information, which is probably much better than parsing the output of lsvfs(1). Maxime To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 14:38:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F6837B401 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail14.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.214]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9872C43E3B for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 2412 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2002 21:38:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail14.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 29 Jul 2002 21:38:12 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TLcBuR051746; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:38:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200207292121.g6TLLNUA008896@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:38:14 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 29-Jul-2002 Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > >> is one way of getting the refcount if you really want it. Why do >> you need a program to tell you that NFS is a network file system >> and procfs and devfs are synthetic? > > I want this information to be easily available for tools which might > want to do something different for certain types of filesystem (e.g., > avoid looking at them) without having to have compiled-in knowledge of > the properties of every filesystem available. If this information were available via sysctl(8)'s would that be sufficient? From what I've seen of the nmount stuff talking with Maxime several things will be available for at least read-only access via sysctl's. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Jul 29 15: 2:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF8C37B400; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90BAB43E31; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g6TM2V2D009281 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK); Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:02:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.12.3/8.12.5/Submit) id g6TM2VXX009278; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:02:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:02:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200207292202.g6TM2VXX009278@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: John Baldwin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: lsvfs(1) removal ? In-Reply-To: References: <200207292121.g6TLLNUA008896@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG < said: > If this information were available via sysctl(8)'s would that be > sufficient? Well, that makes it rather painful for scripts, although I don't currently have a good example of a script that uses it. (Something like locate.updatedb probably ought to.) -GAWollman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Jul 30 8:28:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C037437B400; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (whale.sunbay.crimea.ua [212.110.138.65]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587D843E3B; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@whale.sunbay.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by whale.sunbay.crimea.ua (8.11.6/8.11.2) id g6UFSEH23829; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:28:14 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:28:14 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Bruce Evans Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: install -d -C (was: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man5 make.conf.5 src/share/examples/etc make.conf) Message-ID: <20020730152814.GA23325@sunbay.com> References: <20020729094629.GA94086@sunbay.com> <20020730061741.S52629-100000@gamplex.bde.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020730061741.S52629-100000@gamplex.bde.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.99i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 06:21:17AM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: >=20 > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 10:55:56PM +1000, Bruce Evans wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > > OTOH, if we go this way we can get rid of ugly ${COPY} completely. > > > > > > I'd like to get rid of it too. But not in RELENG_4. -c has been the= default > > > for long enough now in -current. As you know, there are various prob= lems > > > in using the correctly named variable for install(1)'s flags (INSTALL= FLAGS) > > > to actually hold install's flags in a general way (mainly, this varia= ble > > > already exists and is used in a non-general way). However, the old h= ack > > > of putting the flags in the same variable as the command still works = well > > > except for the -[Cp] vs -d conflict. This depends on the flags not b= eing > > > order-dependent. > > > > > OK, -[CpS] are now ignored with -d, and I've dropped support for COPY. > > I have a question. Why COPY can't be removed from RELENG_4 as well? > > Ports that use COPY (there are many of them) will see it as an empty > > string. >=20 > -c hasn't been the default for so long in RELENG_4, so I think the change > has too lrge a risk/reward ratio. >=20 Can you envision any breakage caused by me removing COPY?=3D-c from RELENG_4's bsd.own.mk? We bootstrap install(1), so it's in my opinion safe to assume that on a system without COPY in bsd.own.mk install(1) copies files by default, no? bsd.port.mk and many ports that use ${COPY} will substitute an empty string. If you disagree, what do you propose? Remove any usages of COPY from src/ and leave its definition in bsd.own.mk? What purpose would it serve then? Cheers, --=20 Ruslan Ermilov Sysadmin and DBA, ru@sunbay.com Sunbay Software AG, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.512.251 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE9RrCOUkv4P6juNwoRAucgAJsF1UgWuU3pOiBa3lEZUb4C/0sqNwCeO762 2JBWrZnIHGT3Q4TYsJKomw4= =O3br -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 8:13:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AF537B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E37C43E3B; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g71FDHHV035574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:13:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-u" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:13:42 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 References: In-Reply-To: Cc: John Baldwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208011113.42669.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello! It seems, bsd.cpu.mk is needlessly careless when adding -march/-mcpu to the CFLAGS, without checking if the flag(s) are already present there. It relies on the poorly named/documented flags NO_CPU_CFLAGS and NO_CPU_COPTFLAGS, which can be used to turn the addition off. If one adds -march of his/her own to the CFLAGS explicitly, bsd.cpu.mk will add another -- possibly conflicting setting. The patch below easily prevents that, but jhb -- the most recent to commit to the file -- thinks relying on the two flags above is sufficient. I remain in disagreement, so here it is... (The patch also adds pentium[34] settings, that the new gcc supports, which jhb had no problems with. The difference between pentium2 and pentiumpro (no mmx in the latter) should be handled there as well.) Respectfully, -mi Index: bsd.cpu.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.cpu.mk,v retrieving revision 1.15 diff -U2 -r1.15 bsd.cpu.mk --- bsd.cpu.mk 2002/07/31 03:56:03 1.15 +++ bsd.cpu.mk 2002/08/01 15:09:35 @@ -11,5 +11,5 @@ # may tune support for more advanced processors. -.if !defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "" +.if (!defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "") && ${CFLAGS:M-cpu=*} == "" . if ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "i386" _CPUCFLAGS = -mcpu=pentiumpro @@ -48,5 +48,5 @@ # http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/RS-6000-and-PowerPC-Options.html -. if ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "i386" +. if ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "i386" && ${CFLAGS:M-march=*} == "" . if ${CPUTYPE} == "k7" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=athlon @@ -58,7 +58,7 @@ _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium . elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p4" -_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium4 . elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p3" -_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium3 . elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p2" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro @@ -72,5 +72,5 @@ _CPUCFLAGS = -march=i486 . endif -. elif ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "alpha" +. elif ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "alpha" && ${CFLAGS:M-mcpu=*} == "" . if ${CPUTYPE} == "ev6" _CPUCFLAGS = -mcpu=ev6 -- Как, Вы разве без шпаги пришли? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 8:45:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29F337B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web14107.mail.yahoo.com (web14107.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.137]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8000C43E6A for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesse_gross@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20020801154550.37460.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [172.165.19.158] by web14107.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:45:50 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:45:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jesse Gross Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: John Baldwin , arch@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On a similar note, relating to the addition of the new -march settings, for GCC, I have written a patch for -STABLE. Some ports use GCC 3.1 installed from the ports tree. However, the -march settings in CFLAGS are tuned by bsd.cpu.mk to be the flags that GCC 2.95 can handle. My patch checks whether GCC 3.1 is being used and if it is uses the best -march based on CPUTYPE in make.conf. Jesse Gross Index: bsd.cpu.mk =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.cpu.mk,v retrieving revision 1.2.2.5 diff -u -3 -p -r1.2.2.5 bsd.cpu.mk --- bsd.cpu.mk 2002/07/19 08:09:32 1.2.2.5 +++ bsd.cpu.mk 2002/07/24 03:32:45 @@ -28,28 +28,66 @@ CPUTYPE = k7 .if !defined(NO_CPU_CFLAGS) || !defined(NO_CPU_COPTFLAGS) . if ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "i386" -. if ${CPUTYPE} == "k7" -_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 # gcc doesn't support athlon yet, but it will -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6-2" +. if ${CC}==gcc31 && ${CXX}==g++31 # If GCC 3.1 is being used, new CPU targets can be used +. if ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-xp" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=athlon-xp +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-mp" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=athlon-mp +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-4" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=athlon-4 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k7" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=athlon +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6-2" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6-2 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k5" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p4" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium4 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p3" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium3 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p2" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium2 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i686" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586/mmx" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium-mmx +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i486" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=i486 +. endif +. else +. if ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-xp" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-mp" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "athlon-4" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k7" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6-2" +_CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k6" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=k6 -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k5" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "k5" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p4" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p4" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p3" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p3" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p2" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "p2" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i686" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i686" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentiumpro -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586/mmx" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586/mmx" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i586" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=pentium -. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i486" +. elif ${CPUTYPE} == "i486" _CPUCFLAGS = -march=i486 +. endif . endif . elif ${MACHINE_ARCH} == "alpha" . if ${CPUTYPE} == "ev6" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 8:51:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0CC37B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2441F43E6A; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:51:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g71FpTHV059173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:51:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-u" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Alexandr Kovalenko , Jacques Vidrine Subject: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:51:55 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> In-Reply-To: <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 01 August 2002 10:30 am, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote: = Hello, Jacques Vidrine! = = On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 09:41:27AM -0700, you wrote: = = > nectar 2002/07/31 09:41:27 PDT = > = > Modified files: (Branch: RELENG_4_4) = [snip] = > Log: = > MFC: OpenSSL 0.9.6e = Thanx! Do we still need the separate message digest library -lmd? I used to prefer it myself, but all of the digests are now available in OpenSSL, which is likely to be present on more systems AND is optimized in assembler... -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 10:19:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E64237B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail17.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8072E43E77 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 13257 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 17:19:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Aug 2002 17:19:10 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g71HJ9uR061248; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:19:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200208011113.42669.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:19:10 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mikhail Teterin Subject: RE: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-Aug-2002 Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Index: bsd.cpu.mk > =================================================================== > RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.cpu.mk,v > retrieving revision 1.15 > diff -U2 -r1.15 bsd.cpu.mk > --- bsd.cpu.mk 2002/07/31 03:56:03 1.15 > +++ bsd.cpu.mk 2002/08/01 15:09:35 > @@ -11,5 +11,5 @@ > # may tune support for more advanced processors. > > -.if !defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "" > +.if (!defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "") && ${CFLAGS:M-cpu=*} == "" This doesn't work on non-i386 and assumes too much about what the contents on _CPU_CFLAGS will be on other archs even if you did fix it to work with the settings we currently use now. You have no way of knowing that the user is using some other option that doesn't match that pattern that conflicts with _CPU_CFLAGS. CPUTYPE is optional, and part of CPUTYPE are the NO_CPU_CFLAGS and NO_CPU_COPTFLAGS variables which are very clearly documented right beside CPUTYPE in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf as I have already pointed out to you. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 10:19:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0E137B401 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail17.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C690343E7B for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 13271 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 17:19:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Aug 2002 17:19:12 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g71HJBuR061251; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:19:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20020801154550.37460.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Jesse Gross Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org, Mikhail Teterin Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-Aug-2002 Jesse Gross wrote: > On a similar note, relating to the addition of the new -march settings, > for GCC, I have written a patch for -STABLE. > > Some ports use GCC 3.1 installed from the ports tree. However, the > -march settings in CFLAGS are tuned by bsd.cpu.mk to be the flags that > GCC 2.95 can handle. My patch checks whether GCC 3.1 is being used and > if it is uses the best -march based on CPUTYPE in make.conf. I think this is not something that will scale well. Do we want to support every possible version of gcc, icc, etc. in bsd.cpu.mk? I think that will make it a mess. We should just leave it as supporting the compiler in the base system. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 10:29:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86D137B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762B343E9C; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (obrien@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g71HSpoi082808; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g71HSlcv082807; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:28:47 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: John Baldwin Cc: Jesse Gross , arch@FreeBSD.org, Mikhail Teterin Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Message-ID: <20020801172847.GA82778@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: arch@FreeBSD.org Mail-Followup-To: David O'Brien , John Baldwin , Jesse Gross , arch@FreeBSD.org, Mikhail Teterin References: <20020801154550.37460.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD Group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 01:19:12PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > GCC 2.95 can handle. My patch checks whether GCC 3.1 is being used and > > if it is uses the best -march based on CPUTYPE in make.conf. > > I think this is not something that will scale well. Do we want to > support every possible version of gcc, icc, etc. in bsd.cpu.mk? I > think that will make it a mess. We should just leave it as supporting > the compiler in the base system. Agreed! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 10:31:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964BF37B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout08.sul.t-online.com (mailout08.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.20]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0376143E70; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from fwd02.sul.t-online.de by mailout08.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 17aJnU-0008Ro-04; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 19:31:36 +0200 Received: from Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (520065502893-0001@[217.83.20.57]) by fmrl02.sul.t-online.com with esmtp id 17aJnC-0WLzmKC; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:31:18 +0200 Received: from Magelan.Leidinger.net (Magelan [192.168.1.1]) by Andro-Beta.Leidinger.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g71HVGx01481; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:31:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from Magelan.Leidinger.net (netchild@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Magelan.Leidinger.net (8.12.5/8.12.5) with SMTP id g71HVGFF002775; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:31:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:31:16 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: "John Baldwin" Cc: jesse_gross@yahoo.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Message-Id: <20020801193116.073e26a9.Alexander@Leidinger.net> In-Reply-To: References: <20020801154550.37460.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> Organization: Independend X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.8claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd5.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 520065502893-0001@t-dialin.net Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:19:12 -0400 (EDT) "John Baldwin" wrote: > I think this is not something that will scale well. Do we want to > support every possible version of gcc, icc, etc. in bsd.cpu.mk? I > think that will make it a mess. We should just leave it as supporting > the compiler in the base system. Uh... oh... but you don't mind if I try to change the src (as time permits) so a kernel compiles with icc? I will request a review and the inclusion of the patches into -current when I have a working kernel. Bye, Alexander. -- Actually, Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the Ferengi. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 11: 9:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405F637B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail17.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0AC543E5E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:09:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 26118 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2002 18:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 1 Aug 2002 18:09:27 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (gw1.twc.weather.com [216.133.140.1]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g71I9QuR061477; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:09:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20020801193116.073e26a9.Alexander@Leidinger.net> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:09:27 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Alexander Leidinger Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Cc: mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, jesse_gross@yahoo.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-Aug-2002 Alexander Leidinger wrote: > On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:19:12 -0400 (EDT) "John Baldwin" > wrote: > >> I think this is not something that will scale well. Do we want to >> support every possible version of gcc, icc, etc. in bsd.cpu.mk? I >> think that will make it a mess. We should just leave it as supporting >> the compiler in the base system. > > Uh... oh... but you don't mind if I try to change the src (as time > permits) so a kernel compiles with icc? I will request a review and the > inclusion of the patches into -current when I have a working kernel. That is a bit different. Making the source friendly to other compilers is one thing, tailoring bsd.cpu.mk to know how to work with every possible compiler is another. :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 12:33:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 965F837B40A; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87D2B43E4A; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:33:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g71JXUHV086534 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:33:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:33:56 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208011533.56864.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 01 August 2002 01:19 pm, John Baldwin wrote: = On 01-Aug-2002 Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > Index: bsd.cpu.mk = > =================================================================== = > RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/share/mk/bsd.cpu.mk,v = > retrieving revision 1.15 = > diff -U2 -r1.15 bsd.cpu.mk = > --- bsd.cpu.mk 2002/07/31 03:56:03 1.15 = > +++ bsd.cpu.mk 2002/08/01 15:09:35 = > @@ -11,5 +11,5 @@ = > # may tune support for more advanced processors. = > = > -.if !defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "" = > +.if (!defined(CPUTYPE) || ${CPUTYPE} == "") && ${CFLAGS:M-cpu=*} == "" = = This doesn't work on non-i386 and assumes too much about what the = contents on _CPU_CFLAGS will be on other archs even if you did fix it = to work with the settings we currently use now. I think, it is fairly easy to make it support all things _CPU_CFLAGS may try to contain in the future. Whatever is being added to the _CPU_CFLAGS (mmx, sse) can first be checked for. = You have no way of knowing that the user is using some other option = that doesn't match that pattern that conflicts with _CPU_CFLAGS. At least, this would cover the most blatant cases... = CPUTYPE is optional, and part of CPUTYPE are the NO_CPU_CFLAGS and = NO_CPU_COPTFLAGS variables which are very clearly documented right = beside CPUTYPE in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf as I have already = pointed out to you. You have. And I responded to you, that /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf is fairly obscure, and that this flags are not (yet?) in make.conf(5) and appeared long after the CFLAGS, which, on my machine, for example, contained -march=pentiumpro for _years_. Also, the comments in examples/etc/make.conf, that you refer to, can be taken to imply, that setting NO_CPU_CFLAGS will pessimize the OpenSSL compilation... And even if the documentation is fixed, it will take a while to propagate into the minds. I'm not saying we should dump this flags completely. My point is, we should be a little more careful and check for one more error condition -- it is so easy... Such a simple principle -- before adding something, check if it is not already there! -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 12:46:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A80E37B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADDE43E88; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aLtG-00044o-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:44:52 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , Jacques Vidrine , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Do we still need the separate message digest library -lmd? I used to > prefer it myself, but all of the digests are now available in OpenSSL, > which is likely to be present on more systems AND is optimized in > assembler... Inclusion of OpenSSL in FreeBSD was probably a mistake, since it was not brought in on a vendor branch, and is so mixed up in various code that it's hard to keep up with changes for security updates. As a matter of general principle, it seems to me that MD5 and friends are unlikely to ever change functionally, whereas the other things that come with the package can change rather frequently, since they speak to policy. Consider that it is very hard to use an updated OpenSSL (e.g. 0.9.7-Beta or 0.9.6e) with FreeBSD these days. Also consider that it's hard to build a project whose code is independent of FreeBSD itself, with all these interfaces in the base OS by default. My recommendation is to keep the "md" library. It satisfies the "mechanism, not policy" philosophy in a way that OpenSSL does not. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 12:56:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18EB537B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7685143E42 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:56:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.cc) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83DA9; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:56:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g71JueU4027196; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:56:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g71JueE1027195; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:56:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:56:40 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i-ja.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 12:44:52PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Inclusion of OpenSSL in FreeBSD was probably a mistake, since > it was not brought in on a vendor branch, Er, it was. > and is so mixed up > in various code that it's hard to keep up with changes for > security updates. Updating it required only some very minor build-infrastructure changes outside of src/crypto/openssl. I'm not sure what you mean here. > As a matter of general principle, it seems to me that MD5 and > friends are unlikely to ever change functionally, OK. > whereas the > other things that come with the package can change rather > frequently, since they speak to policy. I don't understand. > Consider that it is very hard to use an updated OpenSSL (e.g. > 0.9.7-Beta or 0.9.6e) with FreeBSD these days. Hmm, all versions of FreeBSD have OpenSSL 0.9.6e. I haven't looked at 0.9.7 personally, but I can't imagine what would prevent one from using it on FreeBSD. > Also consider that it's hard to build a project whose code is > independent of FreeBSD itself, with all these interfaces in > the base OS by default. If I grasp what you mean: Only for lazy programmers who don't understand the interfaces that they are using. :-) > My recommendation is to keep the "md" library. It satisfies > the "mechanism, not policy" philosophy in a way that OpenSSL > does not. I'm not sure how providing duplicate implementations of the digest functions is useful or desirable. I'm in no hurry to ditch libmd, but I do hope to get around to it someday. Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 13:25:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D37E37B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155EE43E3B; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aMVX-0001uv-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:25:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:24:25 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > > and is so mixed up > > in various code that it's hard to keep up with changes for > > security updates. > > Updating it required only some very minor build-infrastructure changes > outside of src/crypto/openssl. I'm not sure what you mean here. It is hard to update to the latest version of the code on a FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE box. > > whereas the > > other things that come with the package can change rather > > frequently, since they speak to policy. > > I don't understand. Code which implements policy. > > Consider that it is very hard to use an updated OpenSSL (e.g. > > 0.9.7-Beta or 0.9.6e) with FreeBSD these days. > > Hmm, all versions of FreeBSD have OpenSSL 0.9.6e. Even those released before 0.9.6e was available? > I haven't looked > at 0.9.7 personally, but I can't imagine what would prevent one from > using it on FreeBSD. The same thing that prevents people from using the newer BIND resolver libraries: the code is maintained seperately from the FreeBSD project by an outside third party. > > Also consider that it's hard to build a project whose code is > > independent of FreeBSD itself, with all these interfaces in > > the base OS by default. > > If I grasp what you mean: Only for lazy programmers who don't > understand the interfaces that they are using. :-) No. I mean that I can't build something that will build on FreeBSD *and* build on some other platform, without having to inventory all of the implicitly installed packages on FreeBSD to know which OpenSSL I'm getting. > > My recommendation is to keep the "md" library. It satisfies > > the "mechanism, not policy" philosophy in a way that OpenSSL > > does not. > > I'm not sure how providing duplicate implementations of the digest > functions is useful or desirable. I'm in no hurry to ditch libmd, but > I do hope to get around to it someday. Duplicate functions aren't desirable, but someone imported the OpenSSL implementations anyway. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 13:36:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AC737B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2974843E65 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:36:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.cc) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C9A9; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:36:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g71Ka2U4027436; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:36:02 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g71Ka2wh027435; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:36:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:36:02 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i-ja.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 01:24:25PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > > > and is so mixed up > > > in various code that it's hard to keep up with changes for > > > security updates. > > > > Updating it required only some very minor build-infrastructure changes > > outside of src/crypto/openssl. I'm not sure what you mean here. > > It is hard to update to the latest version of the code on a > FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE box. I still don't follow. # cd /usr/src # patch -s < /path/to/openssl.patch Done. > > > whereas the > > > other things that come with the package can change rather > > > frequently, since they speak to policy. > > > > I don't understand. > > Code which implements policy. That's what I don't understand. To what code (that implements policy) are you referring? > > > Consider that it is very hard to use an updated OpenSSL (e.g. > > > 0.9.7-Beta or 0.9.6e) with FreeBSD these days. > > > > Hmm, all versions of FreeBSD have OpenSSL 0.9.6e. > > Even those released before 0.9.6e was available? We may be talking past each other ... 4.4-RELEASE, 4.5-RELEASE, and 4.6-RELEASE may all be trivially upgraded to OpenSSL 0.9.6e using either `patch' or `cvsup'. All of these were released prior to the existence of OpenSSL 0.9.6e. > > > I haven't looked > > at 0.9.7 personally, but I can't imagine what would prevent one from > > using it on FreeBSD. > > The same thing that prevents people from using the newer > BIND resolver libraries: the code is maintained seperately > from the FreeBSD project by an outside third party. Oh, you mean it is non-trivial to have the FreeBSD base utilities build against a newer OpenSSL? Yes, I'm don't doubt that could be true, particularly if the API has changed. But as usual I'm too dense to get your point. > No. I mean that I can't build something that will build on > FreeBSD *and* build on some other platform, without having > to inventory all of the implicitly installed packages on FreeBSD > to know which OpenSSL I'm getting. That's not true --- there are plenty of applications which use OpenSSL, and that build find on FreeBSD and other platforms, without explicit knowledge of what FreeBSD has or does not have in the base system. I can't help but feel that I am completely missing your meaning, since surely you cannot be unaware of that fact, or of the existence and function of things like `autoconf' designed to address that exact issue. > > I'm not sure how providing duplicate implementations of the digest > > functions is useful or desirable. I'm in no hurry to ditch libmd, but > > I do hope to get around to it someday. > > Duplicate functions aren't desirable, but someone imported the > OpenSSL implementations anyway. 8-). :-) Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 13:44:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0618137B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:44:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (mta02-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2274643E4A for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from antony.t.curtis@ntlworld.com) Received: from ntlworld.com ([213.104.146.54]) by mta02-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020801204424.SBKG290.mta02-svc.ntlworld.com@ntlworld.com>; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:44:24 +0100 Message-ID: <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:41:23 +0100 From: Antony T Curtis User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020715 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > >>>and is so mixed up >>>in various code that it's hard to keep up with changes for >>>security updates. >> >>Updating it required only some very minor build-infrastructure changes >>outside of src/crypto/openssl. I'm not sure what you mean here. > > > It is hard to update to the latest version of the code on a > FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE box. > > No. I mean that I can't build something that will build on > FreeBSD *and* build on some other platform, without having > to inventory all of the implicitly installed packages on FreeBSD > to know which OpenSSL I'm getting. This is why I would like a FreeBSD-Lite... Which is just the core essentials of FreeBSD with everything else (gcc, bind, bash, perl, openssl, openssh etc) coming from the ports. If I had the time, I would be so sorely tempted to roll my own *BSD distribution based on that idea.... FreeBSD without the fluff. I'd have to roll some kind of binary distribution channel as there is no system compiler ;) -- Antony T Curtis BSc Unix Analyst Programmer http://homepage.ntlworld.com/antony.t.curtis/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14: 0: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C19337B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1501F43E42; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:59:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aN35-000744-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:59:55 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:59:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > > No. I mean that I can't build something that will build on > > FreeBSD *and* build on some other platform, without having > > to inventory all of the implicitly installed packages on FreeBSD > > to know which OpenSSL I'm getting. > > That's not true --- there are plenty of applications which use > OpenSSL, and that build find on FreeBSD and other platforms, without > explicit knowledge of what FreeBSD has or does not have in the base > system. I can't help but feel that I am completely missing your > meaning, since surely you cannot be unaware of that fact, or of the > existence and function of things like `autoconf' designed to address > that exact issue. No. The "autoconf" model is inherently broken. Things like "Imake" and "xmkmf" address this exact issue... still, they are suboptimal. You still aren't getting it though: as a software vendor, I want to *avoid* platform dependencies, because platform dependencies cost me. *Someone* has to hack up the platform dependent bits of autoconf. I guess the best way to say it is this: "autoconf is to portability as localization is to internationalization" By including OpenSSL in the base system, you damage the portability of *my* code, if I use FreeBSD as a developement platform. There are also the programs and the header files that OpenSSL would prefer to install into the directories /usr/local/bin and /usr/local/include/openssl, by default, which get installed wherever on FreeBSD. Maybe I'm just upset that OpenSSH was recently trojaned... but it would be nice if I could opt out of inherent system breakages. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14: 6:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DF9437B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D48343E6E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.cc) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD069; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:06:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g71L6nU4027683; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:06:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g71L6mPj027682; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:06:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:06:48 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020801210648.GA27628@madman.nectar.cc> References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i-ja.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 01:59:01PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip ... You are BSing.] > By including OpenSSL in the base system, you damage the > portability of *my* code, if I use FreeBSD as a developement > platform. How does this damage the portability of *Terry Lambert*'s code? > There are also the programs and the header files that OpenSSL > would prefer to install into the directories /usr/local/bin > and /usr/local/include/openssl, by default, which get installed > wherever on FreeBSD. They get installed wherever on any system. You'll find them in /usr/lib on Debian. You'll find them in /opt/lib on some System Vish systems. You'll find them in /usr/local/ssl/lib on systems that take the OpenSSL defaults. You'll find them in /usr/local/lib if put there by FreeBSD ports or by system administrators who like them there. You'll find them in /usr/pkg/lib, /home/luser/openssl/lib, /afs/some-university/OpenSourcePackages/cryptography/OPENSSL/0.9.6e/lib, or wherever the damn administrator wants them. If you have a point, make it. Otherwise let's drop this thread. I'll help by not responding to any further content-free messages (and not generating any more). Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14:10:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B4437B405 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8408343E3B for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aNCz-0006dl-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:10:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:09:15 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Antony T Curtis Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Antony T Curtis wrote: > This is why I would like a FreeBSD-Lite... Which is just the core > essentials of FreeBSD with everything else (gcc, bind, bash, perl, > openssl, openssh etc) coming from the ports. > > If I had the time, I would be so sorely tempted to roll my own *BSD > distribution based on that idea.... FreeBSD without the fluff. > > I'd have to roll some kind of binary distribution channel as there is no > system compiler ;) There have been a lot of us who have felt this way. The main thing that prevents us from doing this (admittedly, not very strongly prevents it; it's just a barrier to entry) is that we would not be allowed to call the resulting CDROM "FreeBSD". After the recent packaging discussion, which mostly boiled down to "Yep, it's a problem" and "Is `intractable' such a bad word, really?" and "This new library which we've been saying is `almost done' and `will solve the world hunger' since 1996 is almost done... AND solves world hunger! This time for sure!", it seems that the only way this can be fixed is to take the source code and rework the distribution system from scratch, from the ground up. Small wonder that Jordan went to work for Apple, which did basically exactly that... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14:19:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE25137B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nox.cx (nox.cx [216.12.18.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE51F43E86 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zakj-freebsd-arch@nox.cx) Received: (qmail 6913 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Aug 2002 21:20:04 -0000 Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:20:04 -0400 From: Zak Johnson To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020801212004.GC6856@opiate.nox.cx> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:15PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > If I had the time, I would be so sorely tempted to roll my own *BSD > > distribution based on that idea.... FreeBSD without the fluff. > > > > I'd have to roll some kind of binary distribution channel as there is no > > system compiler ;) > > There have been a lot of us who have felt this way. I'm inclined to say that an entirely new distribution is a bad idea, because it will involve a great deal of duplicated effort. What was done recently with Perl was a tremendous step in the right direction, and a good compromise for those of us who want a smaller base system. I would like to see this sort of packaging extended to other unnecessary packages in the base system. The largest barrier seems to be differing definitions of "unnecessary" in this context. -Zak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14:24:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795BA37B405; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF8343E5E; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aNQw-0004NE-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:24:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49A6DB.6FFE5535@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:23:39 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> <20020801210648.GA27628@madman.nectar.cc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > > By including OpenSSL in the base system, you damage the > > portability of *my* code, if I use FreeBSD as a developement > > platform. > > How does this damage the portability of *Terry Lambert*'s code? By locking me into the FreeBSD-RELEASE version of OpenSSL, unless I use the OpenSSL supplied source as a component on a vendor branch of my own software source repository, and then expend a lot of extra effort to avoid accidently getting bits from the system version of SSL, instead of the one from my own source tree. You look at FreeBSD including OpenSSL as a feature; I look at it as a liability. > > There are also the programs and the header files that OpenSSL > > would prefer to install into the directories /usr/local/bin > > and /usr/local/include/openssl, by default, which get installed > > wherever on FreeBSD. > > They get installed wherever on any system. You'll find them in > /usr/lib on Debian. You'll find them in /opt/lib on some System Vish > systems. You'll find them in /usr/local/ssl/lib on systems that take > the OpenSSL defaults. You'll find them in /usr/local/lib if put there > by FreeBSD ports or by system administrators who like them there. > You'll find them in /usr/pkg/lib, /home/luser/openssl/lib, > /afs/some-university/OpenSourcePackages/cryptography/OPENSSL/0.9.6e/lib, > or wherever the damn administrator wants them. > > If you have a point, make it. Otherwise let's drop this thread. I'll > help by not responding to any further content-free messages (and not > generating any more). If there has to be a single point, it's that *NOT* having an SSL implementation selected for you by your OS vendor is as important as anything else, if you are merely using the OS as an applications platform. This is particularly true if you really don't care about which applications platform you use, and just want your code to compile and work without changes on as many UNIX systems as possible, to avoid being tied to a particular vendor. I realize that most people have an inherent defensive bias in this case, because they don't like to see FreeBSD as being a replaceable commodity. But one of the major Linux distributions just closed down a lot of their U.S. operations, so it seems that tying your product to a particular platform vendor, rather than "generic UNIX", is just asking for trouble. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 14:29:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1062937B401 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.nectar.cc (gw.nectar.cc [208.42.49.153]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340EC43E9E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:29:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.cc) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (madman.nectar.cc [10.0.1.111]) by gw.nectar.cc (Postfix) with ESMTP id E744D9; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from madman.nectar.cc (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g71LTIU4027820; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:29:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@madman.nectar.cc) Received: (from nectar@localhost) by madman.nectar.cc (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g71LTI2i027819; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:29:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:29:17 -0500 From: "Jacques A. Vidrine" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020801212917.GA27792@madman.nectar.cc> References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> <20020801210648.GA27628@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A6DB.6FFE5535@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49A6DB.6FFE5535@mindspring.com> X-Url: http://www.nectar.cc/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i-ja.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:23:39PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > How does this damage the portability of *Terry Lambert*'s code? > > By locking me into the FreeBSD-RELEASE version of OpenSSL, No it doesn't. Your applications can use any version of OpenSSL that you like, or you can use some other SSL implementation (see mozilla). I'm sorry, but I have to write you off now; I've wasted enough time already and I regret it. Cheers, -- Jacques A. Vidrine http://www.nectar.cc/ NTT/Verio SME . FreeBSD UNIX . Heimdal Kerberos jvidrine@verio.net . nectar@FreeBSD.org . nectar@kth.se To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 15: 0:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491D737B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AD643E70 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aNzU-0004VA-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:00:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49AF37.C7E1E272@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:59:19 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zak Johnson Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> <20020801212004.GC6856@opiate.nox.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Zak Johnson wrote: > On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:15PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > If I had the time, I would be so sorely tempted to roll my own *BSD > > > distribution based on that idea.... FreeBSD without the fluff. > > > > > > I'd have to roll some kind of binary distribution channel as there is no > > > system compiler ;) > > > > There have been a lot of us who have felt this way. > > I'm inclined to say that an entirely new distribution is a bad idea, > because it will involve a great deal of duplicated effort. I'd agree, if it were duplicating the effort that we all felt so strongly about. But then if that were the case, there would be no need for it, since the code would be there already, and it wouldn't be a problem. So the part people are concerned with is certainly not something which would be duplication. > What was done recently with Perl was a tremendous step in the right > direction, and a good compromise for those of us who want a smaller base > system. I would like to see this sort of packaging extended to other > unnecessary packages in the base system. The largest barrier seems to > be differing definitions of "unnecessary" in this context. No, the largest barrier is that *everything* is not a package, so that *anyone* can make a decision on what "unnecessary" means to them, without shooting anyone else in the foot. In other words, if you are trying to define "unnecessary", then you are addressing a symptom, rather than the problem. The "make installworld" target defines what is and is not in "The Base System". For better or worse, this is an Ultimate Truth. Without tackling the problem at that level, it's unlikely that it will ever be solvable. If you were around when John Dyson decided to start an SMP kernel project, as a drop-in replacement for the FreeBSD kernel, you'll remember that the project flopped. John was also trying to address a symptom, without addressing the base problem. He wanted to create an SMP system, but the major attribute of such a system is kernel reentrancy. This is also the major attribute of an RT system (as one example of problem domain expansion). But John did not want to permit RT (again, an example) in the resulting system. In other words, he did not expand the set of problems that the resulting system would be able to solve. The net effect was that the newly declared project did not attract volunteers, since it wasn't really solving any new problems, other than John's own perception of the messyness of the existing code. Cleaning up the mess is a goal that could have been achieved through simple code refactoring, if people would permit what would be, without argument, "gratuitous changes" (making code readable is *always* a gratuitous change; worse: it's subjective). With three strikes against it starting out, it's no wonder that it went nowhere. The "OpenSSL vs. -lmd" discussion is, similarly, just a symptom of the real problem. The problem in this case is third party mega-packages, where you have to make an all or none choice between a set of components, rather than on an individual component basis. Ask yourself "Why is it an issue in the first place?" The answer is that the "-lmd" library is seperate in the legacy code, but glommed into the OpenSSL library, along with other cruft, making it no longer severable. The issue is one of severability. I think the idea of fundamentally breaking the system into optional and highly granular components has a large amount of "grass roots" support; discussions like the packaging discussion would not attract nearly so much participation, were that not the case. To readdress your idea of "an entirely new distribution": if that's the only way the problem will be permitted to be solved, then it's a likelihood; one way or another, the problem *will* be solved, eventually, likely sonner than later. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 15:16:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078E037B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net (flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.232]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A526A43E81; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by flamingo.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aOEn-0000cC-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:16:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49B2E9.A2D7C343@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:15:05 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacques A. Vidrine" Cc: Mikhail Teterin , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <20020801203601.GA27367@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A115.22FF6948@mindspring.com> <20020801210648.GA27628@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49A6DB.6FFE5535@mindspring.com> <20020801212917.GA27792@madman.nectar.cc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jacques A. Vidrine" wrote: > No it doesn't. Your applications can use any version of OpenSSL that > you like, or you can use some other SSL implementation (see mozilla). It's a lot of work to make sure you don't pick up the system installed components accidently. I would call the contortions that Mozilla goes through to get an alternate OpenSSL "Heroic measures". Just because waving a dead chicken fixes something, doesn't mean we all want to have to add dead chickens to our toolboxes. Asking every software vendor out there to perform the same contortions so that their applications aren't FreeBSD-specific after they're written is unacceptable. > I'm sorry, but I have to write you off now; I've wasted enough time > already and I regret it. I'm sorry to have threatened your sacred cow, but it's really a problem when it stomps all over my garden. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 15:30: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 289CB37B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A88643E6E; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g71MTrHV088994 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:29:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-u" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Terry Lambert , "Jacques A. Vidrine" Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:30:20 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801212917.GA27792@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49B2E9.A2D7C343@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3D49B2E9.A2D7C343@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 01 August 2002 06:15 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: = I would call the contortions that Mozilla goes through to get an = alternate OpenSSL "Heroic measures". Those measures are also the stupid ones. There is no need for them. = Asking every software vendor out there to perform the same contortions = so that their applications aren't FreeBSD-specific after they're = written is unacceptable. Nobody is planning to ask them. If your application only compiles with a particular version of OpenSSL means the app is broken. In any case, to bring this thread back to the SUBJECT, having -lmd does not help those poor vendors a bit. I'd suggest using -lmd _inside_ -lcrypto, if OpenSSL's implementations of the digests weren't faster... Since they are, -lmd should be dropped. Whatever your opinion on the rest of OpenSSL, its API(s) did not change in a while... Especially in the Message Digest area. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 15:54:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31D437B400; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8274843E65; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:54:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0503.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.248] helo=mindspring.com) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aOq8-00013V-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:54:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:53:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: "Jacques A. Vidrine" , Alexandr Kovalenko , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801212917.GA27792@madman.nectar.cc> <3D49B2E9.A2D7C343@mindspring.com> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikhail Teterin wrote: > = Asking every software vendor out there to perform the same contortions > = so that their applications aren't FreeBSD-specific after they're > = written is unacceptable. > > Nobody is planning to ask them. If your application only compiles with a > particular version of OpenSSL means the app is broken. If your OS doesn't allow my application to compile with a particular version of OpenSSL, it means your OS is broken. The sword cuts both ways. Try to think like an application vendor instead of an OS vendor. > In any case, to bring this thread back to the SUBJECT, having -lmd does > not help those poor vendors a bit. I'd suggest using -lmd _inside_ > -lcrypto, if OpenSSL's implementations of the digests weren't faster... > > Since they are, -lmd should be dropped. Whatever your opinion on the > rest of OpenSSL, its API(s) did not change in a while... Especially in > the Message Digest area. That'd be peachy, if the shared library version number only applied to the Message Digest area. Unfortunately, it applies to the whole thing, so when something unrelated to message digests changes its API, programs linked against the same digest API can notcontinue to use the system shared library when installed on future versions of FreeBSD, unless backward compatability packages are also installed. Unfortunately, it's not possible to make a package depend on backward compatability packages which don't exist yet, is it? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 17: 7:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D7E337B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (aldan.algebra.com [216.254.65.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670E443E70 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g7206Ttg074466; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:06:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: (from mi@localhost) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g7206PgF074368; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:06:25 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1 References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7whJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 01 August 2002 06:53 pm, you wrote: = Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > = Asking every software vendor out there to perform the same contortions = > = so that their applications aren't FreeBSD-specific after they're = > = written is unacceptable. = > = > Nobody is planning to ask them. If your application only compiles with a = > particular version of OpenSSL means the app is broken. = = If your OS doesn't allow my application to compile with a = particular version of OpenSSL, it means your OS is broken. Ours does... You _can_ easily install OpenSSL of your choice (you should use the port, but you don't have to). And yes, you need to make sure your -I and -L settings point to the right locations, but that is always the case. In addition, the openssl port has a setting, with which you overwrite the base openssl -- letting you easily install the latest and greatest OpenSSL on a not so latest OS. I wonder, why you are not complaining about us having -lc in the base system :-) After all, with Linux systems you usually have a choice -- glibc/libc/etc. = The sword cuts both ways. = = Try to think like an application vendor instead of an OS vendor. = = = > In any case, to bring this thread back to the SUBJECT, having -lmd does = > not help those poor vendors a bit. I'd suggest using -lmd _inside_ = > -lcrypto, if OpenSSL's implementations of the digests weren't faster... = > = > Since they are, -lmd should be dropped. Whatever your opinion on the = > rest of OpenSSL, its API(s) did not change in a while... Especially in = > the Message Digest area. = That'd be peachy, if the shared library version number only = applied to the Message Digest area. Unfortunately, it applies = to the whole thing, so when something unrelated to message = digests changes its API, programs linked against the same = digest API can notcontinue to use the system shared library = when installed on future versions of FreeBSD, unless backward = compatability packages are also installed. The digests are in -lcrypto. It is the -lssl, that changes (or should change) more often. In any case, I have the same -lcrypto and -lssl versions on my -current and -stable systems. The libs are quite stable, even if less so, than the -lmd. In any case, the same problem (if it is a problem) exists with -lc, -lm (oh, yes!) and other libraries. Why pick on OpenSSL? -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 18:46:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0DEB37B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633C943E6E for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0431.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.176] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aRWU-0005xa-00; Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:45:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> <200208012006.25130@aldan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Ours does... You _can_ easily install OpenSSL of your choice (you should > use the port, but you don't have to). And yes, you need to make sure your > -I and -L settings point to the right locations, but that is always the case. > > In addition, the openssl port has a setting, with which you overwrite the base > openssl -- letting you easily install the latest and greatest OpenSSL on a not > so latest OS. If there's a port for it. ports/security/openssl/Makefile: PORTVERSION= 0.9.6e ...not very happening, if I need an app_verify_callback() that actually passes the user's void * parameter like it's supposed to, AES CFB or OFB or CTR, RFC2256 compliance for object definitions, IBM 4758 crypto card support, or want Theo de Raadt's security patch for ui_openssl.c, or want X.509 mandatory extension handling or CRL checking, or use PKCS#7 with S/MIME, etc.. That (and a lot more) all requires that I use 0.9.7. > I wonder, why you are not complaining about us having -lc in the base system > :-) After all, with Linux systems you usually have a choice -- glibc/libc/etc. I'll complain about the resolver being in libc, if that'll make you happy... it'll make everyone who has to do name lookups serially so they compalin about IPv6 in Mozilla happy... 8-). > The digests are in -lcrypto. It is the -lssl, that changes (or should > change) more often. > > In any case, I have the same -lcrypto and -lssl versions on my > -current and -stable systems. The libs are quite stable, even if less > so, than the -lmd. > > In any case, same problem (if it is a problem) exists with -lc, -lm > (oh, yes!) and other libraries. Why pick on OpenSSL? Because it was the example in the subject line of a message that wanted to get rid of libmd, making my software dependent on the libcrypt version number when it wasn't before. If I picked a different example, it would just be someone else unhappy, plus people could complain that it was off topic for the subject line. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 19:59:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAC837B401 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail17.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.217]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A157443E4A for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 19:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: (qmail 2265 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2002 02:59:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([216.27.160.63]) (envelope-sender ) by mail17.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 2 Aug 2002 02:59:49 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (laptop.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.4]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g722xmuR062546; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:59:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.2 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200208011533.56864.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:59:50 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mikhail Teterin Subject: Re: march/mcpu in bsd.cpu.mk Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-Aug-2002 Mikhail Teterin wrote: > I think, it is fairly easy to make it support all things _CPU_CFLAGS may > try to contain in the future. Whatever is being added to the _CPU_CFLAGS > (mmx, sse) can first be checked for. I don't. I think that you don't just have to block -march=foo, you may need to block any number of other '-mfoo' options that are architecture specific and that that will end up being very ugly and hard to maintain. > = CPUTYPE is optional, and part of CPUTYPE are the NO_CPU_CFLAGS and > = NO_CPU_COPTFLAGS variables which are very clearly documented right > = beside CPUTYPE in /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf as I have already > = pointed out to you. > > You have. And I responded to you, that /usr/share/examples/etc/make.conf > is fairly obscure, and that this flags are not (yet?) in make.conf(5) > and appeared long after the CFLAGS, which, on my machine, for example, > contained -march=pentiumpro for _years_. Funny that I don't have that response in my inbox. Anyways, CPUTYPE isn't documented in make.conf(5) at all and I suggested you do that. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 20:20:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCF237B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (aldan.algebra.com [216.254.65.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF9D43E65 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g723JVtg035399; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:19:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: (from mi@localhost) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g723JRTe035394; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:19:26 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208012006.25130@aldan> <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7whJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday 01 August 2002 09:45 pm, Terry Lambert wrote: = Mikhail Teterin wrote: = ...not very happening, if I need an app_verify_callback() that = actually passes the user's void * parameter like it's supposed = to, AES CFB or OFB or CTR, RFC2256 compliance for object = definitions, IBM 4758 crypto card support, or want Theo de Raadt's = security patch for ui_openssl.c, or want X.509 mandatory extension = handling or CRL checking, or use PKCS#7 with S/MIME, etc.. That = (and a lot more) all requires that I use 0.9.7. So, you can either upgrade the port, or install OpenSSL-0.9.7 on your own, following the generic procedure. Nothing will break... [...] = > In any case, same problem (if it is a problem) exists with -lc, -lm = > (oh, yes!) and other libraries. Why pick on OpenSSL? = = Because it was the example in the subject line of a message that = wanted to get rid of libmd, making my software dependent on the = libcrypt version number when it wasn't before. But you are happy to depend on libmd's version number? = If I picked a different example, it would just be someone else = unhappy, plus people could complain that it was off topic for = the subject line. 8-). In other words, in your view, the system should contain no third-party usable libraries at all?.. Perhaps. But ours does contain plenty, and OpenSSL is hardly the first candidate to be removed. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Aug 1 21:36:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBECE37B400 for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheer.mahoroba.org (flets19-007.kamome.or.jp [218.45.19.7]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141B443E6A for ; Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Received: from localhost (IDENT:COwqTo/e0WSZv+9X5rWxwEmhUXAZNqOsRqarFXPbhTXeT4fRSP3LqrtZuy3rUJy3@localhost [IPv6:::1]) (user=ume mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) by cheer.mahoroba.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP/inet6 id g724a1B4028539 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:36:01 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:36:01 +0900 Message-ID: From: Hajimu UMEMOTO To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mikhail Teterin , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd In-Reply-To: <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> <200208012006.25130@aldan> <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> User-Agent: xcite1.38> Wanderlust/2.9.13 (Unchained Melody) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.2 (i386--freebsd) MULE/5.0 (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCOC1MWhsoQg==?=) X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.6-STABLE MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, >>>>> On Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:45:01 -0700 >>>>> Terry Lambert said: tlambert2> I'll complain about the resolver being in libc, if that'll make tlambert2> you happy... it'll make everyone who has to do name lookups tlambert2> serially so they compalin about IPv6 in Mozilla happy... 8-). No, it doesn't help for Mozilla. Mozilla does separate lookups for A RR and AAAA RR. To make happy with Mozilla, someone needs to rewrite Mozilla. Sincerely, -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@{,jp.}FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 1:24:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF25637B400 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BA243E3B for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0128.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.128] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aXj5-0004ZD-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:23:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4A416C.D1FAD950@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:23:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hajimu UMEMOTO Cc: Mikhail Teterin , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Decrepit resolver library References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> <200208012006.25130@aldan> <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hajimu UMEMOTO wrote: > tlambert2> I'll complain about resolver being in libc, if that'll make > tlambert2> you happy... it'll make everyone who has to do name lookups > tlambert2> serially so they compalin about IPv6 in Mozilla happy... 8-). > > No, it doesn't help for Mozilla. Mozilla does separate lookups for A > RR and AAAA RR. To make happy with Mozilla, someone needs to rewrite > Mozilla. Actually, you would expect the resolver to resolve the name in parallel for all the protocols it understands, and then return "the best one", whatever that is, instead. If that happens to be IPv6, then you get a sockaddr * for IPv6; if it's IPv4, you get one for IPv4; if it's AppleTalk, you get that. All the application should know is that it gets a sockaddr * and a protocol family variable back from the resolver. Of course, with the resolver people pointing fingers at the Mozilla people, even when the problem they are trying to solve is the inability of the resolver to perform concurrent lookups simultaneously, it will always look like it's someone else's problem. And no, making the application use threads to get around the resolver libraries serialization problems isn't a fix, it's a workaround that shouldn't be necessary. But if "threads" is the only answer that will be permitted, then it seems that the resolver belongs some place other than libc, anyway (at least libc_r, but preferrable a seperate library). The current tight coupling is a result of the inability to use libraries lineked to other libraries to work around the historical association issue. Of course that neglects the fact that the ELF standard doesn't really condone static libraries in the first place... 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 1:34:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F75037B400 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D2843E4A for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:34:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0128.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.128] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17aXt6-0002Fj-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:34:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4A43DB.5DE70508@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 01:33:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208012006.25130@aldan> <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> <200208012319.26676@aldan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mikhail Teterin wrote: > So, you can either upgrade the port, or install OpenSSL-0.9.7 on your > own, following the generic procedure. Nothing will break... I can install it on my own, and the configure scripts for things that search for an installed version of the software will sometimes break when they find the system version instead of the installed version. > = Because it was the example in the subject line of a message that > = wanted to get rid of libmd, making my software dependent on the > = libcrypt version number when it wasn't before. > > But you are happy to depend on libmd's version number? Yes. It is, effectively, a named interface. By which I mean that the library does very little, and combines only related functionality that will commonly be versioned at or around the same time. On the extreme opposite end of things, we have libc, which combines things as disparate as the mount(2) system call and the strftime(3) function. > = If I picked a different example, it would just be someone else > = unhappy, plus people could complain that it was off topic for > = the subject line. 8-). > > In other words, in your view, the system should contain no third-party usable > libraries at all?.. Perhaps. But ours does contain plenty, and OpenSSL is > hardly the first candidate to be removed. It should contain no third party code which is actively maintained outside the control of the FreeBSD project, proper, unless that code is managed as an external package. OpenSSL is one example. Perl is another example. Note that perl was recently removed from the base system using exactly this reasoning. It was possible to remove it because it is able to be seperate its functionality from the base system, and place it in a package. OpenSSL is harder to seperate, but that's really the fault of the base system not being composed of package, not because it's "magically non-severable". You still haven't spoken to the seperation of a "libmd" from "libcrypt" using the OpenSSL rather than the FreeBSD libmd sources: the point being that the import of the hash functions from OpenSSL being tied into the libraries is an artifact of monolithic packaging, not one of necessity. There's no reason the hash functions should be in libcrypt, except that "that's where OpenSSL happens to put them". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 2:45:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F26437B405 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from net2.dinoex.sub.org (net2.dinoex.de [212.184.201.182]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3358E43E5E for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dirk.meyer@dinoex.sub.org) Received: from net2.dinoex.sub.org (dinoex@net2.dinoex.sub.org [127.0.0.1]) by net2.dinoex.sub.org (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g729jK5H006815 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:45:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dirk.meyer@dinoex.sub.org) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: Received: from gate.dinoex.sub.org (dinoex@localhost) by net2.dinoex.sub.org (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) with BSMTP id g729jHIO006797 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:45:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from dirk.meyer@dinoex.sub.org) To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <5VuZaodUzb@dmeyer.dinoex.sub.org> From: dirk.meyer@dinoex.sub.org (Dirk Meyer) Organization: privat Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:39:47 +0200 X-Mailer: Dinoex 1.79 References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <200208011830.20096.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D49BBEF.F1156C79@mindspring.com> <200208012006.25130@aldan> <3D49E41D.57DBF81C@mindspring.com> X-Gateway: ZCONNECT gate.dinoex.sub.org [UNIX/Connect 0.94] X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 16 EC 0A D3 3A 4F 28 8A 8A 47 93 F1 CF 2F 12 X-Copyright: (C) Copyright 2001 by Dirk Meyer -- All rights reserved. X-PGP-Key-Avail: mailto:pgp-public-keys@keys.de.pgp.net Subject:GET 0x331CDA5D X-ZC-VIA: 20020802000000S+2@dinoex.sub.org X-Accept-Language: de,en X-Noad: Please don't send me ad's by mail. I'm bored by this type of mail. X-Note: sending SPAM is a violation of both german and US law and will at least trigger a complaint at your provider's postmaster. X-No-Archive: yes Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert schrieb:, > If there's a port for it. > > ports/security/openssl/Makefile: > PORTVERSION= 0.9.6e > > [...]i all requires that I use 0.9.7. Well this is the first request I received ... Shall we add an port for it? ports/security/openssl-dev kind regards Dirk - Dirk Meyer, Im Grund 4, 34317 Habichtswald, Germany - [dirk.meyer@dinoex.sub.org],[dirk.meyer@guug.de],[dinoex@FreeBSD.org] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 8:50:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C0937B400 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nox.cx (nox.cx [216.12.18.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16DF43E42 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zakj-freebsd-arch@nox.cx) Received: (qmail 25631 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Aug 2002 15:44:52 -0000 Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:44:52 -0400 From: Zak Johnson To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020802154452.GA25577@opiate.nox.cx> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> <20020801212004.GC6856@opiate.nox.cx> <3D49AF37.C7E1E272@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D49AF37.C7E1E272@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:59:19PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think the idea of fundamentally breaking the system into > optional and highly granular components has a large amount > of "grass roots" support; discussions like the packaging > discussion would not attract nearly so much participation, > were that not the case. > > To readdress your idea of "an entirely new distribution": > if that's the only way the problem will be permitted to be > solved, then it's a likelihood; one way or another, the > problem *will* be solved, eventually, likely sonner than > later. What is preventing a change in this direction from happening inside FreeBSD (as opposed to a new distribution)? Is there a large set of committers who feel that making FreeBSD more/completely modular is a bad idea? Or is everyone just waiting for libh? -Zak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 11: 8:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D123637B405 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13FD443E4A for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0929.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.195.164] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17agqR-0004Ia-00; Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:08:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3D4ACA59.298777B@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 11:07:21 -0700 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zak Johnson Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd References: <200207311641.g6VGfRWj099655@freefall.freebsd.org> <20020801143059.GA536@nevermind.kiev.ua> <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> <20020801212004.GC6856@opiate.nox.cx> <3D49AF37.C7E1E272@mindspring.com> <20020802154452.GA25577@opiate.nox.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Zak Johnson wrote: > On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:59:19PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think the idea of fundamentally breaking the system into > > optional and highly granular components has a large amount > > of "grass roots" support; discussions like the packaging > > discussion would not attract nearly so much participation, > > were that not the case. > > What is preventing a change in this direction from happening inside > FreeBSD (as opposed to a new distribution)? Is there a large set of > committers who feel that making FreeBSD more/completely modular is a bad > idea? Or is everyone just waiting for libh? This is a good question. I think the answer is that this is one of the cases where it is not possible to get from poin A to point B via evolution instead of revolution. I've tried to tackle this problem locally, but every time I've tried to get a handle on it, it's come down to the need to have "make installworld" result in a system that would have resulted from the installation of a pagake set that represents the default install, as a minimum solution set for the problem. In the case of the "installworld" target, however, the real solution set is a maximal, not a default, install, because the problem is trying to get a solution set from which any potential default install can be derived. To keep the previous ability with the "NO_THIS" and "NO_THAT" (particularly the ability to build *without* certain components, like documentation, where the source code for the tools is not part of the FreeBSD source tree itself, and requires ports), it basically means that such a system has to be able to take its own partial input as output. The documentation build itself is non-orthogonal. The ports that are part of the system end up having to to be imported into the source tree (certain FreeBSD versions are in fact not buildable from source these days, for lack of archived copies of old instances of the tools for the documentation system and the ISO images). The only clean way I've been able to come up with is the one I keep coming back to, which is to (effectively) start with the goal in mind, and completely reengineer the build system to support it. In practice, this means being able to recover all package data, including package metadata, from an installed system, in order to recreate the install images that would recreate the installed system, plus additional tools to get over the bootstrap barrier (normally, tools which are optionally installed, or available only on the CDROM). If this is what we have to have on hand as a result of a "make world; make installworld", then it means some fundamental changes for the "installworld" target, and probably the "world" target. If we extend this, and say we want to be able to "pack up" a PicoBSD distribution (for example) from the installed image, so that we can build a distribution image that results in a flash image... well, then the scope of the problem becomes more clear. If we extend it to arbitrary reconfiguration of the kernel (as would be the case in an embedded systems shop that wanted (1) build environments for its engineers and (2) a image distribution for the embedded system itself and (3) a binary image of an installed embedded system for support of a chroot "build envornoment" for the embedded system for use by the engineers (or even just a cross-version of FreeBSD), well then the full scope of the problem becomes apparent. I think it's really unlikely that that level of backward compatability loss would be acceptable to the project, particularly if it were to take place in the context of a 4.x branch system... which would have the effect of forcing a 5.x back-integration. If someone can think of an alternate approach which is capable of solving the problems, without being so alien as to not be possbile inside the context of the project itself, I'm all ears. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 11:22:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FDB37B400 for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jkh-gw.queasyweasel.com (adsl-64-173-3-158.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.3.158]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A514E43E5E for ; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@queasyweasel.com) Received: from adsl-64-173-15-99.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net (jkh@mango.freebsd.com [64.173.15.99]) by jkh-gw.queasyweasel.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g72ILYux089298; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@queasyweasel.com) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:23:11 -0700 Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8-613267768 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG To: Zak Johnson From: Jordan K Hubbard In-Reply-To: <20020802154452.GA25577@opiate.nox.cx> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Apple-Mail-8-613267768 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Lest anyone misinterpret the goals of libh, let me just point out that all libh does is provide a new UI, installation and packaging framework for doing this kind of thing with. It doesn't actually make FreeBSD inherently more modular or help with the changes necessary to the build system to make that happen. I also don't usually agree with Terry's diatribes, but I have to say that he hit the nail pretty much on the head when he said: No, the largest barrier is that *everything* is not a package, so that *anyone* can make a decision on what "unnecessary" means to them, without shooting anyone else in the foot. In other words, if you are trying to define "unnecessary", then you are addressing a symptom, rather than the problem. The "make installworld" target defines what is and is not in "The Base System". For better or worse, this is an Ultimate Truth. Without tackling the problem at that level, it's unlikely that it will ever be solvable. That truly is the more fundamental problem here and something which can be addressed independently of libh, even if the initial target is to simply create a series of FreeBSD packages for each subcomponent and then one or more meta-packages which define the "base" and simply contain a list of dependencies. With the ``extract-in-place'' directive I added to pkg_add(1) some time back, it's even possible to have these packages pretty much do the right thing without having to go through /tmp, it would just require a little smarts in sysinstall to detect them and avoid extracting them in the same fashion as the other packages. Since there never has been a "packaged distribution" of FreeBSD available, that's simply never been worth doing. I personally would smile on any effort to deconstruct src/release/Makefile with any eye towards packaging the bits entirely differently. The packaging strategems currently employed there are based around the 1.2MB *floppy* for godssakes, and if ever there were a bit of legacy baggage worth looking into, it's that stuff. FreeBSD is rapidly growing past its original and humble goals of being a good x86-only operating system and looking at a whole bunch of new technologies (KSE, SMP, fair-share scheduling, etc), all of which is essentially growth along a single technical axis, and it's simply regrettable that its growth in terms of release engineering technology has essentially stagnated around work done in the early-to-mid 90's. Growth along multiple axis can easily occur without being mutually conflicting, so who's gonna step up to the plate? Don't look at me, I did so much of the first system that I always come down with second-system-syndrome when I try to get involved in such things. :-) - Jordan On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:44 AM, Zak Johnson wrote: > What is preventing a change in this direction from happening inside > FreeBSD (as opposed to a new distribution)? Is there a large set of > committers who feel that making FreeBSD more/completely modular is a > bad > idea? Or is everyone just waiting for libh? > > -Zak > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > -- Jordan K. Hubbard Engineering Manager, BSD technology group Apple Computer --Apple-Mail-8-613267768 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Lest anyone misinterpret the goals of libh, let me just point out that all libh does is provide a new UI, installation and packaging framework for doing this kind of thing with. It doesn't actually make FreeBSD inherently more modular or help with the changes necessary to the build system to make that happen. I also don't usually agree with Terry's diatribes, but I have to say that he hit the nail pretty much on the head when he said: Courier New No, the largest barrier is that *everything* is not a package, so that *anyone* can make a decision on what "unnecessary" means to them, without shooting anyone else in the foot. In other words, if you are trying to define "unnecessary", then you are addressing a symptom, rather than the problem. The "make installworld" target defines what is and is not in "The Base System". For better or worse, this is an Ultimate Truth. Without tackling the problem at that level, it's unlikely that it will ever be solvable. That truly is the more fundamental problem here and something which can be addressed independently of libh, even if the initial target is to simply create a series of FreeBSD packages for each subcomponent and then one or more meta-packages which define the "base" and simply contain a list of dependencies. With the ``extract-in-place'' directive I added to pkg_add(1) some time back, it's even possible to have these packages pretty much do the right thing without having to go through /tmp, it would just require a little smarts in sysinstall to detect them and avoid extracting them in the same fashion as the other packages. Since there never has been a "packaged distribution" of FreeBSD available, that's simply never been worth doing. I personally would smile on any effort to deconstruct src/release/Makefile with any eye towards packaging the bits entirely differently. The packaging strategems currently employed there are based around the 1.2MB *floppy* for godssakes, and if ever there were a bit of legacy baggage worth looking into, it's that stuff. FreeBSD is rapidly growing past its original and humble goals of being a good x86-only operating system and looking at a whole bunch of new technologies (KSE, SMP, fair-share scheduling, etc), all of which is essentially growth along a single technical axis, and it's simply regrettable that its growth in terms of release engineering technology has essentially stagnated around work done in the early-to-mid 90's. Growth along multiple axis can easily occur without being mutually conflicting, so who's gonna step up to the plate? Don't look at me, I did so much of the first system that I always come down with second-system-syndrome when I try to get involved in such things. :-) - Jordan On Friday, August 2, 2002, at 08:44 AM, Zak Johnson wrote: What is preventing a change in this direction from happening inside FreeBSD (as opposed to a new distribution)? Is there a large set of committers who feel that making FreeBSD more/completely modular is a bad idea? Or is everyone just waiting for libh? -Zak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -- Jordan K. Hubbard Engineering Manager, BSD technology group Apple Computer --Apple-Mail-8-613267768-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Aug 2 12:50:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F200837B400; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host23.websitesource.com (host23.websitesource.com [209.239.41.222]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB09A43E5E; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from app-request@americanpetplan.com) Received: (from app-1@localhost) by host23.websitesource.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) id g72JCgF04622; Fri, 2 Aug 2002 15:12:42 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: host23.websitesource.com: app-1 set sender to app-request@americanpetplan.com using -f Message-ID: <000501c23a57$ee694f80$c5031942@WEBSITES> From: "www.americanpetplan.com" To: Subject: Pet Health Plan! 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Aug 3 0:35:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2BA37B400 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8293B43E42 for ; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020803073521.UZBN221.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 07:35:21 +0000 Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (localhost. [127.0.0.1]) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g737ZKJK048249; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crist.clark@attbi.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) id g737ZJuA048248; Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: blossom.cjclark.org: cjc set sender to crist.clark@attbi.com using -f Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:35:19 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Zak Johnson , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenSSL vs. -lmd Message-ID: <20020803073519.GD47529@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark" References: <200208011151.55478.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <3D498FB4.6987B696@mindspring.com> <20020801195640.GQ26797@madman.nectar.cc> <3D4998F9.A736EA85@mindspring.com> <3D499CF3.4030601@ntlworld.com> <3D49A37B.BA3C2982@mindspring.com> <20020801212004.GC6856@opiate.nox.cx> <3D49AF37.C7E1E272@mindspring.com> <20020802154452.GA25577@opiate.nox.cx> <3D4ACA59.298777B@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D4ACA59.298777B@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 11:07:21AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > Zak Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:59:19PM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I think the idea of fundamentally breaking the system into > > > optional and highly granular components has a large amount > > > of "grass roots" support; discussions like the packaging > > > discussion would not attract nearly so much participation, > > > were that not the case. > > > > What is preventing a change in this direction from happening inside > > FreeBSD (as opposed to a new distribution)? Is there a large set of > > committers who feel that making FreeBSD more/completely modular is a bad > > idea? Or is everyone just waiting for libh? > > This is a good question. And an easy question to answer. Many, many people would love this. All it takes is someone or group of developers to DO IT rather than just ramble on and on about how nice it would be to have and eventually descend to the bikeshed about what should be a package and what should be "core." FreeBSD is free. Anyone can build their own packaging system to distribute it. They can bake it for profit if they want! They can offer it back to go into the repository (where it will be accepted _somewhere,_ whether in the base or in the projects repo if it is any good)! They can GLP it if they want! If you build it, they will come. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message