From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 10:41:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zigman.2y.net (korpen-86-205.ip-pluggen.com [212.181.86.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679A137B9CB for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 10:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by zigman.2y.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 36DD01CB6; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:37:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:37:41 +0100 From: Morsal Rodbay To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: tuning KDE Message-ID: <20020106193741.A69763@zigman.2y.net> Reply-To: Morsal Rodbay Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 [up 5:50] X-Return-Path: morsal@swipnet.se Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm running KDE 2.2 on a slow Celeron 366 box and I was wondering if there is anything I can change in order to make things load faster because that is the only thing that bothers me, the load time. (cant afford upgrading the hardware) :) Morsal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 12: 1: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maild.telia.com (maild.telia.com [194.22.190.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7005D37B417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from bossen (h120n2fls31o846.telia.com [217.208.108.120]) by maild.telia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g06K0xN08254; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:01:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:03:53 +0100 (CET) From: Tor Stormwall X-X-Sender: To: Morsal Rodbay Cc: Subject: Re: tuning KDE In-Reply-To: <20020106193741.A69763@zigman.2y.net> Message-ID: <20020106205311.P896-100000@bossen.myhome.my> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Since the KDE project released their 2.0 some while ago, KDE couldn't run on old machines because they programmed all things in new libraries that required stronger hardware. The KDE project seem not to care about hardware because the machines have been really fast the last few years. You can use simple configurations. Turn off everything that handles graphics. Run evertying as low as you can. I dont know if other KDE programs, like kwrite and kmail, have anything to do with the speed, but you can try and deinstall things you dont use. Use only the things that are the most neccerary stuff. Use simple backgrounds etc. Maybe you can recompile both QT and KDE with minimal includes. And by that I mean that you sould disable as much as you can. You may work on it a bit but give it a shot. > Hi, > I'm running KDE 2.2 on a slow Celeron 366 box and I was wondering if there > is anything I can change in order to make things load faster because that is > the only thing that bothers me, the load time. (cant afford upgrading the > hardware) :) > Best Regards, Tor Stormwall * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * | M A Y T H E S O U R C E B E W I T H Y O U | | | | Tor Stormwall mailto:tor@stormwall.org | | http://creson.com/~tor http://www.FreeBSD.org | | | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 13:38:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47EF837B417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8821BCDF; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:38:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27896; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:38:26 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g06Ld9e41642; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Nils Holland Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: just discovered the app bgrot - this is cool References: <200201051231686.SM01904@there> <20020105221726.A86300@tisys.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 06 Jan 2002 13:39:08 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020105221726.A86300@tisys.org> Message-ID: Lines: 8 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > Could it be that something like this, called FvwmBacker, comes with fvwm2 > right out of the box? ;-) Yes, but (as far as I could see in a quick look at the man page) it only changes images at "desktop" and "page" switches, not periodically, as "bgrot" apparently does. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 13:40:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA4B37B41D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A482A1700CA; Sun, 06 Jan 2002 13:41:22 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: Morsal Rodbay Subject: Re: tuning KDE Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:42:23 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: "chat - FreeBSD Chat Mailing List" References: <20020106205311.P896-100000@bossen.myhome.my> In-Reply-To: <20020106205311.P896-100000@bossen.myhome.my> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201061341327.SM01508@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hi, > > I'm running KDE 2.2 on a slow Celeron 366 box and I was wondering if > > there is anything I can change in order to make things load faster > > because that is the only thing that bothers me, the load time. (cant > > afford upgrading the hardware) :) Have you considered not running KDE? I run KDE apps without running KDE o= n my=20 old AMD K6-2/350. I run the XFCE window manager and can use any KDE or GN= OME=20 apps I want without the overhead of running those 'desktop environments'.= =20 And they all work as expected. Just another suggestjon. ;-) --=20 Chip chip@wiegand.org www.wiegand.org <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 14: 4:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EE237B41D for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id AA32BED0102; Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:05:38 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Nils Holland Subject: Re: just discovered the app bgrot - this is cool Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:06:38 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200201051231686.SM01904@there> <20020105221726.A86300@tisys.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201061405674.SM01508@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 06 January 2002 01:39 pm, Gary W. Swearingen banged out on the = keys: > Nils Holland writes: > > Could it be that something like this, called FvwmBacker, comes with f= vwm2 > > right out of the box? ;-) > > Yes, but (as far as I could see in a quick look at the man page) it > only changes images at "desktop" and "page" switches, not periodically, > as "bgrot" apparently does. In the conf file for bgrot you set the time in seconds to display the ima= ges,=20 it then rotates through the image directory, picking them out at random,=20 changing at the set interval. The default display type is tiled, but that is easily changed in the conf= =20 file also, I set mine to centered, looks much better that way, for larger= =20 images. (This is not documented.) -- Chip > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --=20 <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 14:38:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8654337B41C for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id F18E8FC2; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:38:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:38:29 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: chip Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: just discovered the app bgrot - this is cool Message-ID: <20020106163829.C23043@over-yonder.net> References: <200201051231686.SM01904@there> <20020105221726.A86300@tisys.org> <200201061405674.SM01508@there> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <200201061405674.SM01508@there>; from chip@wiegand.org on Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0800 I heard the voice of chip, and lo! it spake thus: > > The default display type is tiled, but that is easily changed in the conf > file also, I set mine to centered, looks much better that way, for larger > images. (This is not documented.) Just to clarify a bit: This can't be handled through the config file, it requires a little 1-line tweak to the script that actually runs all the rotations. It uses xv(1) to do the displays, so tiled is the default, and you can also do centered or stretched (who needs aspect ratios, anyway?) or even some of the other fun modes xv can do (mirrored is nifty). Allowing better control of stuff like this is one of the targetted features of the ever-vaporware bgrot v2. Also, xv has occasionally (maybe 10 or 15 times in the years I've been running bgrot) just decided to not display an image, and instead eat all the CPU time it can get its hands on until you kill it; v2 will be able to monitor for that... until then, you'll just have to Not Panic (tm) when you notice your >1 load average come out of nowhere, and just smack xv down. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 14:50:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96C637B417 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A4F74E2004C; Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:51:35 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: just discovered the app bgrot - this is cool Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:52:35 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Nils Holland , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200201051231686.SM01904@there> <200201061405674.SM01508@there> <20020106163829.C23043@over-yonder.net> In-Reply-To: <20020106163829.C23043@over-yonder.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201061451553.SM01508@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 06 January 2002 02:38 pm, Matthew D. Fuller banged out on the k= eys: > On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 02:06:38PM -0800 I heard the voice of > > chip, and lo! it spake thus: > > The default display type is tiled, but that is easily changed in the = conf > > file also, I set mine to centered, looks much better that way, for la= rger > > images. (This is not documented.) > > Just to clarify a bit: > > This can't be handled through the config file, it requires a little > 1-line tweak to the script that actually runs all the rotations. =20 Yes of course, my mistake. It's in the background.sh file.=20 -- Chip > It uses > xv(1) to do the displays, so tiled is the default, and you can also do > centered or stretched (who needs aspect ratios, anyway?) or even some o= f > the other fun modes xv can do (mirrored is nifty). > > Allowing better control of stuff like this is one of the targetted > features of the ever-vaporware bgrot v2. Also, xv has occasionally > (maybe 10 or 15 times in the years I've been running bgrot) just decide= d > to not display an image, and instead eat all the CPU time it can get it= s > hands on until you kill it; v2 will be able to monitor for that... unt= il > then, you'll just have to Not Panic (tm) when you notice your >1 load > average come out of nowhere, and just smack xv down. --=20 <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 23: 0:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0E637B404; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 4F952FC5; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:59:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:59:55 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Wilko Bulte Cc: Greg Lehey , Jens Schweikhardt , Garrett Wollman , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Abbreviating units (was: cvs commit: src/sys/isa sio.c) Message-ID: <20020107005955.F23043@over-yonder.net> References: <200201060458.g064w9626629@freefall.freebsd.org> <200201060550.g065oGn35131@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020106152104.A4955@schweikhardt.net> <20020107105949.H45844@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020106173721.A3043@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl>; from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl on Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:57:30AM +0100 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Over to -chat, where it definately belongs] On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:57:30AM +0100 I heard the voice of Wilko Bulte, and lo! it spake thus: > On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 05:37:21PM -0700, Chad David wrote: > > > > I've always written 'L' for litres, and my milk says 4L > > (the container beside it say 475mL) if that means anything :). > > L is not correct, l is. SI says one should use m^3 for volumes but that > never stuk for milk and the like ;) Well, it almost did... after all, a litre is 1 cubic decimeter... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 23: 5:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF43B37B404 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 23:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 2AC22782FC; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:35:49 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:35:49 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wilko Bulte Cc: Jens Schweikhardt , Garrett Wollman , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abbreviating units (was: cvs commit: src/sys/isa sio.c) Message-ID: <20020107173549.A41167@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200201060458.g064w9626629@freefall.freebsd.org> <200201060550.g065oGn35131@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020106152104.A4955@schweikhardt.net> <20020107105949.H45844@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020106173721.A3043@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Monday, 7 January 2002 at 7:57:30 +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > On Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 05:37:21PM -0700, Chad David wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 10:59:49AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>> In Australia, they use "L" to represent litres. The Commonwealth >>> Style Guide claims that this is the correct international >>> abbreviation. I don't know anywhere else where it's a capital, but >>> that doesn't mean it's wrong this way (just looks it :-). Can anybody >>> confirm or deny? >> >> I've always written 'L' for litres, and my milk says 4L >> (the container beside it say 475mL) if that means anything :). > > L is not correct, l is. SI says one should use m^3 for volumes but that > never stuk for milk and the like ;) "Could you give me one millicubicmeter of milk, please?". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 23:18: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF2F37B400; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 23:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 17C29FC4; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 01:18:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 01:18:06 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wilko Bulte , Jens Schweikhardt , Garrett Wollman , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Fun with the metric system! (was Re: Abbreviating units) Message-ID: <20020107011806.G23043@over-yonder.net> References: <200201060458.g064w9626629@freefall.freebsd.org> <200201060550.g065oGn35131@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020106152104.A4955@schweikhardt.net> <20020107105949.H45844@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020106173721.A3043@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20020107173549.A41167@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <20020107173549.A41167@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:35:49PM +1030 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:35:49PM +1030 I heard the voice of Greg Lehey, and lo! it spake thus: > > "Could you give me one millicubicmeter of milk, please?". Nah, they'd give you a cubicmillimeter instead, and charge you the same price. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 6 23:34:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E186F37B404 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 23:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 55CE8782D0; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:04:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:04:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Jens Schweikhardt , Garrett Wollman , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abbreviating units (was: cvs commit: src/sys/isa sio.c) Message-ID: <20020107180441.B41167@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <200201060458.g064w9626629@freefall.freebsd.org> <200201060550.g065oGn35131@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020106152104.A4955@schweikhardt.net> <20020107105949.H45844@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020106221526.C2029@gohan.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20020106221526.C2029@gohan.cjclark.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Sunday, 6 January 2002 at 22:15:26 -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 10:59:49AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sunday, 6 January 2002 at 15:21:04 +0100, Jens Schweikhardt wrote: >>> FYI, >>> >>> # >>> # The symbol for `second' is `s'. `S' is `siemens', the unit of >>> # conductivity. When the Greek letter mu is not available, the prefix >>> # `micro-' is symbolized `mc'. >>> # >>> # The symbol for `hertz' is `Hz'. `hz' is meaningless. >>> # >>> >>> There's even an easily remembered rule to capitalization of units (in >>> Physics): if the unit is named after a person, it's capitalized, else in >>> lower case. So we have capitalized Hertz, Volts, Faradays, Webers, Ohms, >>> Siemens, Amperes, Ångströms, Coulombs, Watts, Newtons, Joules, Kelvins, >>> etc and lowercased seconds, meters, parsecs, barns, ergs, etc. >> >> In Australia, they use "L" to represent litres. The Commonwealth >> Style Guide claims that this is the correct international >> abbreviation. I don't know anywhere else where it's a capital, but >> that doesn't mean it's wrong this way (just looks it :-). Can anybody >> confirm or deny? > > Liters are not SI units. Correct. But that wasn't the question. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 3:34: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hub.freebsd.org (host213-1-10-79.webport.bt.net [213.1.10.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 614F137B423 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 03:34:05 -0800 (PST) From: "friends of luke for a cooler world" Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:32:48 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: rare invitation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20020107113405.614F137B423@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://members.madasafish.com/~lukefictitious/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 7:42:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D83E37B400; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:42:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g07Fgll23006; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:42:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:42:47 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Abbreviating units (was: cvs commit: src/sys/isa sio.c) In-Reply-To: <20020107173549.A41167@wantadilla.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20020107093252.H18742-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote to Wilko Bulte: > > L is not correct, l is. SI says one should use m^3 for volumes but that > > never stuk for milk and the like ;) > > "Could you give me one millicubicmeter of milk, please?". What about cubic centimetre, as in: Nurse! Give me 250 cc's of milk, stat! - Ryan, from Canada, a nation divided by SI and Imperial units. -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 13:45:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B25C37B405; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 3923C239A06; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:45:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:45:23 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Matthew Dillon Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020107214523.GB57358@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <200201072128.g07LSK655245@apollo.backplane.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E13BgyNx05feLLmH" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200201072128.g07LSK655245@apollo.backplane.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --E13BgyNx05feLLmH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-07 13:28 -0800, Matthew Dillon wro= te: > Oh my god. I don't even *remember* writing this one! This was when > I was 18. Google's archive isn't complete but they've done an incred= ible > job getting as much as they have. Yes, Google is indeed great. Now everyone can go back and find my first USENET posting, which was to alt.life.sucks. Sigh. :) Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --E13BgyNx05feLLmH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8OhbyIBUx1YRd/t0RAhdMAJ9DEcb128JCwNhbBkcfYjQE4QZeWACfcmDU 9+SErWlAlLDBfkCkCcGvMp8= =c37q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E13BgyNx05feLLmH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 15:11:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B976937B404; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:11:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-33qtmto.dsl.mindspring.com ([199.174.219.184] helo=gohan.cjclark.org) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16NivR-0006pA-00; Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:11:34 -0800 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by gohan.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g07NAvc01418; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:10:53 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wilko Bulte , Jens Schweikhardt , Garrett Wollman , Matt Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Abbreviating units (was: cvs commit: src/sys/isa sio.c) Message-ID: <20020107151053.E286@gohan.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <200201060458.g064w9626629@freefall.freebsd.org> <200201060550.g065oGn35131@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <20020106152104.A4955@schweikhardt.net> <20020107105949.H45844@wantadilla.lemis.com> <20020106173721.A3043@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <20020107075730.A9089@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20020106233840.H2029@gohan.cjclark.org> <20020107185239.C41167@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020107185239.C41167@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@FreeBSD.org on Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 06:52:39PM +1030 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 06:52:39PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] > Hmm, thanks for pointing me at this. I can't find this claim, > however. At http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/brochure-si.pdf (or its > translation http://www.bipm.fr/pdf/si-brochure.pdf), they state (on > page 57 or 132) that they will accept both abbreviations, but that it > is desirable to retain only one of them. This was 12 years ago; can > you point me to any subsequent decision? Here's some things on SI from NIST, http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/ The BIPM website was giving me trouble. -- "It's always funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's hilarious." Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 18:36:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F17F37B404; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 98C96782D0; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:06:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:06:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: TD790@aol.com Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020108130615.E91528@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20.21dd4868.296bb1c2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20.21dd4868.296bb1c2@aol.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Monday, 7 January 2002 at 21:21:54 -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/07/2002 7:32:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > mchopra@engmail.uwaterloo.ca writes: > >>> Drool away, buddy! Here's mine, and it still works (chicklet >>> keyboard, built in cassette drive, metal filing cabinet company >>> case,40 character B&W monitor, and all): >>> >>> PET 2001-8 >>> SN: 0031620 >>> >>> I have some of the original flyers for the PET and CBM boxes, >>> as well as the yellow folded 4 page 8x11" "BASIC Reference" >>> sheet, too... >>> >>> "Space Invaders" Anyone? 8-) 8-) > > Think they have the code to the C64 "supermon" assembler? I spend 3 > evenings poking it in from Compute! and now I can't find the > cassette anywhere. Why not search for it? I got 35 hits on +c64 +supermon. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 20:37:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C97937B420; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:37:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id g084bNu72218; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:37:22 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Matthew Dillon , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020107203722.A66819@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <200201072128.g07LSK655245@apollo.backplane.com> <20020107214523.GB57358@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020107214523.GB57358@klapaucius.zer0.org>; from gsutter@zer0.org on Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 01:45:23PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 01:45:23PM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2002-01-07 13:28 -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: > > Oh my god. I don't even *remember* writing this one! This was when > > I was 18. Google's archive isn't complete but they've done an incredible > > job getting as much as they have. > > Yes, Google is indeed great. Now everyone can go back and find my > first USENET posting, which was to alt.life.sucks. Sigh. :) Yea, but aren't you STILL posting to alt.life.sucks? I'v move on to alt.freebsd.rocks.microsoft.sucks ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 21:17:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.thpoon.com (CPE0080c8f2c614.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [24.42.106.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E53A837B419 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 82409 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2002 05:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO tea.thpoon.com) (qmailr@192.168.1.2) by 192.168.1.1 with SMTP; 8 Jan 2002 05:17:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 3684 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jan 2002 05:17:31 -0000 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Multiple root accounts From: Arcady Genkin X-Face: 0=A/O5-+sE[Tf%X>rYr?Y5LD4,:^'jaJ!4jC&UR*ZrrK2>^`g22Qeb]!:d;}2YJ|Hq"LHdF OX`jWX|AT-WVFQ(TPhFVak)0nt$aEdlOq=1~D,:\z5QlVOrZ2(H,mKg=Xr|'VlHA="r Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:17:31 -0500 Message-ID: <87zo3p776c.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.090004 (Oort Gnus v0.04) XEmacs/21.4 (Common Lisp, i686-pc-linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What is the better scenario for a situation with multiple sysadmins for one system: a. all admins share one root account and pass b. there is a separate root account per each admin, with its own pass Historically, at my ork place there are five admins sharing the same root account. I think that scenario (b) is better, but maybe there are gotchas with this approach. Here's what I can think of with regards to having one UID 0 account per each admin: Pros: - each admin can have his own customization (dot files etc.) - possibly, accountability is increased - each admin can choose a password that's easy to remember for him - no need to communicate a new password, like it would have to be communicated if one root account were shared Cons: - there is a chance that some admin would choose a weak root password - anything else?.. What am I missing? It would be nice to hear how others approach this problem. FWIW, the network consists of almost equal shares of Solaris and Linux computers (no BSD boxes so far) with /etc/password shared over NFS. -- Arcady Genkin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 21:59:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from catalyst.sasknow.net (catalyst.sasknow.net [207.195.92.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BFE637B402 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by catalyst.sasknow.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g085x5o29557; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:59:05 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ryan@sasknow.com) X-Authentication-Warning: catalyst.sasknow.net: ryan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:59:05 -0600 (CST) From: Ryan Thompson X-X-Sender: To: Arcady Genkin Cc: Subject: Re: Multiple root accounts In-Reply-To: <87zo3p776c.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Message-ID: <20020107233232.O26769-100000@catalyst.sasknow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Arcady Genkin wrote to chat@FreeBSD.ORG: > [...] > Here's what I can think of with regards to having one UID 0 account > per each admin: > > Pros: > - each admin can have his own customization (dot files etc.) Yes. > - possibly, accountability is increased Yes, for the normal things. Although anybody with superuser privs can easily mangle logs, etc. > - each admin can choose a password that's easy to remember for him Yes, and have the freedom to change that password independently of the other admins. > - no need to communicate a new password, like it would have to be > communicated if one root account were shared > > Cons: > - there is a chance that some admin would choose a weak root password Yes, but if you have an admin that does that, he/she should really NOT have root access ;-) > - anything else?.. > > What am I missing? It would be nice to hear how others approach > this problem. Multiple accounts with uid, gid = 0 is the better approach of the two. Also check out sudo (/usr/ports/security/sudo). It allows you to pick and choose actions for each user that are run with elevated privs. It provides a much more granular approach to delegating sysadmin tasks. But, I feel as though I should state my opinion in the larger picture. Having more than one full administrator for each machine, IMO, is usually a bad idea, unless perhaps it's a toy box for development, and even then you need some solid network ground rules. If you need to share the administration of one machine, I favor the following approach: o ONE responsible, accountable administrator with root access o No one else with a root account For each delegated responsibility "x", follow this questioning, in this order: 1. Can x be done by a normal user? (More often than not, the answer is "yes", or "yes, with a few changes to ownerships and group membership"). If yes, do it. 2. Can x be implemented securely by a standard root process (eg, cron). If yes, do it. 3. Is there an alternative to x that does not require superuser privs? (i.e., move things to SQL database, install a competing version of the program, etc) 4. Ok, if x really requires root, can it be executed with sudo? (I am not aware of very many things that can't be done with sudo.. so the answer is probably "yes"). 5. If all else fails, the single root user can do it. If it is a sufficiently time consuming task, you'll be looking for ways to do it in 1..4 pretty soon. :-) Sometimes, you'll find tradeoffs, and the above, by far, isn't an exact science, but as a general approach, it seems to work quite well for myself and others. If you force yourself to consider option 1 before 2, etc, as opposed to being lazy and doing everything as root (or, worse yet, handing out root passwords) you'll most often end up with a more stable and secure system. Even if you don't need to delegate any responsibilities, this is a good approach to follow, to shield you from accidental root mishaps and the like. To reuse a tired cliche, giving someone root access to perform two or three tasks is like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. Seek viable alternatives! :-) - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson Network Administrator, Accounts SaskNow Technologies - http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E - Saskatoon, SK - S7H 0W2 Tel: 306-664-3600 Fax: 306-664-1161 Saskatoon Toll-Free: 877-727-5669 (877-SASKNOW) North America To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 7 22:13:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA7337B404; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g086DXl73808; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:13:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from localhost (warner@rover2.village.org [10.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g086DVx31752; Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:13:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:13:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <20020107.231317.128334888.imp@village.org> To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: gsutter@zer0.org, dillon@apollo.backplane.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! From: "M. Warner Losh" In-Reply-To: <20020107203722.A66819@mooseriver.com> References: <200201072128.g07LSK655245@apollo.backplane.com> <20020107214523.GB57358@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020107203722.A66819@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message: <20020107203722.A66819@mooseriver.com> Josef Grosch writes: : Yea, but aren't you STILL posting to alt.life.sucks? I'v move on to : alt.freebsd.rocks.microsoft.sucks /me does all his popsting in alt.freebsd.daemon.daemon.daemon these days. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 8:38:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BBF37B41B for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g08Gc0f93575; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:37:59 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: BSD Mailing List Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org redirected to -chat On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, BSD Mailing List wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > You guys have to check out this link > http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/12/2/42056/2147 > > According to this guy, BSD and other versions of Linux are only > "illegal hacking operating systems". i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals alike have to deal with. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 8:42:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4246837B404 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ci592716-c.valleyst1.ky.home.com (HELO Kaiser) (24.251.253.28) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2002 16:42:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:42:48 -0500 From: Donnie Jones To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Message-Id: <20020108114248.401298c6.donniejones18@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Begin forwarded message: Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:37:59 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" To: BSD Mailing List Subject: Re: This guy is so far out redirected to -chat On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, BSD Mailing List wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > You guys have to check out this link > http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/12/2/42056/2147 > > According to this guy, BSD and other versions of Linux are only > "illegal hacking operating systems". i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals alike have to deal with. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 8:58:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFDE37B41C for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:58:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-184.wobline.de [212.68.69.195]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g08GweM30751; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:58:40 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (poison.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.5]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g08GxSX44014; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:59:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g08Gwna02071; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:58:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:58:14 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: BSD Mailing List , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, donniejones18@yahoo.com Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Message-ID: <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: "f.johan.beisser" , BSD Mailing List , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, donniejones18@yahoo.com References: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost>; from jan@caustic.org on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:37:59AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD poison.ncptiddische.net 4.5-PRERELEASE FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE X-Machine-Uptime: 5:54PM up 2:40, 2 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:37:59AM -0800, f.johan.beisser stood up and spoke: > > i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is > out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people > looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. > > it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals > alike have to deal with. Hey, the article is great! I cannot remember a better laugh lately. Who wrote it? Probably I should contact the guy and ask him for more of his work. He should write a book about his experiences with hackers. Oh, *shit* I have an AMD processor, you know, these "inferior knock-off copies of American processor chips that you cannot buy in stores but must order from dark websites..." ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 9: 6: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AF7D37B422 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g08H5pB93711; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:05:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:05:51 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Nils Holland Cc: BSD Mailing List , , Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org> Message-ID: <20020108090000.T74874-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Nils Holland wrote: > Hey, the article is great! I cannot remember a better laugh lately. Who > wrote it? Probably I should contact the guy and ask him for more of his > work. He should write a book about his experiences with hackers. it would probably be more accurate than some of the crap that's out there. better informed and not to mention better written. > Oh, *shit* I have an AMD processor, you know, these "inferior knock-off > copies of American processor chips that you cannot buy in stores but must > order from dark websites..." ;-) well.. i'm running FreeBSD, an illegal hacker OS on over half of my machines! oh my.. i seem to have it INSTALLED AT WORK, on my workstation, it must be some kind of japanese conspiracy, since i work for a japanese company! uhg. i'm inclined to think that entire article is a joke, well crafted, well written, and entirely well targeted. -- jan -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 9:22:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp014.mail.yahoo.com (smtp014.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEECF37B41D for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ci592716-c.valleyst1.ky.home.com (HELO Kaiser) (24.251.253.28) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Jan 2002 17:22:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:22:19 -0500 From: Donnie Jones To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Message-Id: <20020108122219.46de1a22.donniejones18@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020108090000.T74874-100000@localhost> References: <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org> <20020108090000.T74874-100000@localhost> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:05:51 -0800 (PST) "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Nils Holland wrote: > > > Hey, the article is great! I cannot remember a better laugh lately. Who > > wrote it? Probably I should contact the guy and ask him for more of his > > work. He should write a book about his experiences with hackers. > > it would probably be more accurate than some of the crap that's out there. > > better informed and not to mention better written. > > > Oh, *shit* I have an AMD processor, you know, these "inferior knock-off > > copies of American processor chips that you cannot buy in stores but must > > order from dark websites..." ;-) > > well.. i'm running FreeBSD, an illegal hacker OS on over half of my > machines! > > oh my.. i seem to have it INSTALLED AT WORK, on my workstation, it must be > some kind of japanese conspiracy, since i work for a japanese company! > > uhg. > > i'm inclined to think that entire article is a joke, well crafted, well > written, and entirely well targeted. > > -- jan > > -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ > http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org > "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse > of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche Yeah, it is possible that it is all a joke. What is funniest to me is that the website www.adequacy.org is running FreeBSD. :) I love nmap OS scans, hehe. -Donnie _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 9:31:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au [203.2.75.174]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD66237B405 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from optusnet.com.au (golax6-075.dialup.optusnet.com.au [211.28.134.75]) by mail013.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g08HVQi27083 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:31:26 +1100 Message-ID: <3C3B2D8B.D5C61A5F@optusnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 03:34:03 +1000 From: Ian Pulsford X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-PRERELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This guy is so far out References: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is > out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people > looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. > > it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals > alike have to deal with. > > -- jan It's a satire. You just have to look at all the things he links at to work that out. A pretty good satire by modern standards; a satirical troll. Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 9:33:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B3A37B402 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:33:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g08HXFn93952; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:33:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:33:14 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Ian Pulsford Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: <3C3B2D8B.D5C61A5F@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20020108093210.N74874-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Ian Pulsford wrote: > It's a satire. You just have to look at all the things he links at to > work that out. A pretty good satire by modern standards; a satirical > troll. and sadly, i fell for it to some extent. my poor failing mental filters for satire. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 12:43:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E4937B7A1 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g08KePc08559; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:40:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <005101c19884$b83d88b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Donnie Jones" , "f.johan.beisser" Cc: References: <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org><20020108090000.T74874-100000@localhost> <20020108122219.46de1a22.donniejones18@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:40:25 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Donnie writes: > Yeah, it is possible that it is all a joke. Yes, that certainly seems possible. What worries me more than his post is the number of people who take it seriously. Do young males ever stop and think at all, or do they do everything in the same instinctive way as stray dogs do? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 13:15:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ermis.cc.duth.gr (ermis.cc.duth.gr [192.108.114.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F57837B435 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from duth.gr (foo.duth.gr [193.92.210.14]) by ermis.cc.duth.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g08LFGS13077; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:15:16 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from kkonstan@duth.gr) Message-ID: <3C3AADF5.97D56221@duth.gr> Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:29:41 +0200 From: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Organization: We've heard of it. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en, el MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: BSD Mailing List , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, donniejones18@yahoo.com Subject: Re: This guy is so far out References: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > redirected to -chat > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, BSD Mailing List wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > You guys have to check out this link > > http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/12/2/42056/2147 > > > > According to this guy, BSD and other versions of Linux are only > > "illegal hacking operating systems". I didn't know that BSD was a version of Linux, never mind an "illegal hacking operating system". Oh well, live and learn. According to the article it was written by a Soviet hacker and it was based on "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US Government! > i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is > out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people > looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. I think what this article shows is that the author is a trully magnificent troll. I particularly enjoyed the reference to lunix (not Linux, lunix, a C64 unix lookalike, probably named after the lunacy that definitely is a requirement for someone to engage in such an exercise of futility), although the advice to ensure that any firearms are fitted with trigger locks should your son engage in the occasional game of Quake was a close second. Having Tim O'Reilly's "Programming with Perl" next to Jon (sic) Katz's "Geeks" in the "black list" of "hacking manuals" was a nice touch... > it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals > alike have to deal with. Indeed, I had to deal with my fair share of idiocy from our users until we putted those "NO ENTRY" signs at the door and made sure that the phones would be busy for anyone but a select few higher up the pecking order. But this is not idiocy; this is the creative work of a genius misspenting his talent. --kkonstan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 14:48:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (h24-64-56-135.cg.shawcable.net [24.64.56.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECF137B427 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g08MlEI53513; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:47:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g08MlE447319; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:47:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:47:14 -0700 From: Chad David To: "f.johan.beisser" Cc: BSD Mailing List , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, donniejones18@yahoo.com Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Message-ID: <20020108154714.A47278@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Mail-Followup-To: "f.johan.beisser" , BSD Mailing List , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, donniejones18@yahoo.com References: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020108082803.M74874-100000@localhost>; from jan@caustic.org on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:37:59AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:37:59AM -0800, f.johan.beisser wrote: > > redirected to -chat > > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, BSD Mailing List wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > You guys have to check out this link > > http://www.adequacy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/12/2/42056/2147 > > > > According to this guy, BSD and other versions of Linux are only > > "illegal hacking operating systems". > > i think this article shows more of a lack of knowledge than "this guy is > out there". he's ill informed, and tends to write to a group of people > looking to have their fears confirmed, vs actually learning something. I would have to diagree. There is no way this guy is serious, and you just fell for a joke (a very good joke). If you read it again I think you will see a bit Johnathan Swift in there (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) ;-). > > it's a sad state, but this is what some kids and computer professionals > alike have to deal with. Or when kids and computer professionals can no longer deal with this :). What happened to all those cs majors who came over from the english department? -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 17:14:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7866637B416 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A99F1E040088; Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:15:11 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This guy is so far out Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:16:16 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <20020108093210.N74874-100000@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20020108093210.N74874-100000@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201081715984.SM01924@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Ian Pulsford wrote: > > It's a satire. You just have to look at all the things he links at t= o > > work that out. A pretty good satire by modern standards; a satirical > > troll. That article is hilarious! I also read the mission statement - I was just= =20 about ROFL! The whole site is a joke, nobody could possibly take anything= =20 written there seriously. -- Chip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 19:57:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.knology.net (user-24-214-63-14.knology.net [24.214.63.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 211EA37B41A for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 19:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13800 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2002 03:56:58 -0000 Received: from user-24-214-92-93.knology.net (HELO grumpy.dyndns.org) (24.214.92.93) by user-24-214-63-14.knology.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2002 03:56:58 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g093uiF62306; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:56:44 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200201090356.g093uiF62306@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-reply-to: Message from Nils Holland of "Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:58:14 +0100." <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 21:56:44 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland writes: > > Hey, the article is great! I cannot remember a better laugh lately. Me too. ROTFL. Hit "Print..." and the slow site hung. Went off to do other things and found 79 pages on the printer. At least I was using the Mac and had selected 2-up per page so it was only 40 sheets. The slashdot-ish followup comments are as funny as the original article. > Oh, *shit* I have an AMD processor, you know, these "inferior knock-off > copies of American processor chips that you cannot buy in stores but must > order from dark websites..." ;-) Oooh! I have an AMD CPU *and* the Perl book! And I've changed ISP's! Didn't know how *bad* my lifestyle really was. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 8 21:11:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC9C37B419 for ; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 389E77567; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3410C1D93; Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:14:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:14:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Chad David Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: <20020108154714.A47278@colnta.acns.ab.ca> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Chad David wrote: :What happened to all those cs majors who came over from the english :department? Someone told them they'd have to take some math classes, and they disappeared like last year's vaporware. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 0:40: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FC7B37B425 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:39:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id B049381E0C; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:39:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:39:55 -0600 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Chris Coleman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from chrisc@vmunix.com on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 01:06:04AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Chris Coleman [020109 02:22] wrote: > Daemon News is pleased to announce the availability of pre-orders for > FreeBSD 4.5. This will be our first release of FreeBSD on CD. We will > be using the official FreeBSD 4.5 ISOs created by the FreeBSD project. > The expected release date for FreeBSD 4.5 is January 20th. We expect to > have CDs available two weeks after that. > > We are taking pre-orders at this time to help gauge the number of CDs we > will need to produce. > > You can pre-order CDs from: > > http://www.bsdmall.com/freebsd45.html Is that the new CD cover? (black with red lettering?) It's really awesome. (yes just ordered it. :) ) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 2:17:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235B737B416 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 02:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 77146FC4; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:17:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:17:18 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: TD790@aol.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020109041718.J23043@over-yonder.net> References: <175.1d34975.296ccb03@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <175.1d34975.296ccb03@aol.com>; from TD790@aol.com on Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 05:21:55PM -0500 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Doing my part for a cleaner -hackers ] On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 05:21:55PM -0500 I heard the voice of TD790@aol.com, and lo! it spake thus: > > Can I interest anyone in a half box of Elephant Disks (the ones the labels > wouldn't stay on)? They don't need labels to recall the contents. Elephant never forgets. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 8:16:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mmu.edu.my (ext-dns.mmu.edu.my [203.106.62.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453B937B41F for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from venus.cyber.mmu.edu.my (venus.cyber.mmu.edu.my [203.106.62.12]) by mmu.edu.my (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA11487 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:10:24 +0800 (MYT) Received: from nuzrin.com (hb2c-20.cyber.mmu.edu.my [10.100.99.40]) by venus.cyber.mmu.edu.my (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19576 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:13:50 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <3C3C6DAE.5060700@nuzrin.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:19:58 +0800 From: Nuzrin Yaapar Reply-To: nuzrin@nuzrin.com Organization: Multimedia University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.7) Gecko/20020108 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Moron spammer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Guys, read this tale of a moron spammer and have a good laugh ;) http://petemoss.com/spamflames/ShifmanIsAMoronSpammer.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 11: 7:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DD337B402 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:07:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E0EDD3A239; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:07:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:07:14 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone know where to get .... Message-ID: <20020109110714.F29544@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org little round stickers, white, with green writing saying "Q.A. SEAL" ? The ones you find on computers etc, to make them "unopenable" ? -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 11:48: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web12502.mail.yahoo.com (web12502.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 881B237B416 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:47:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <20020109194754.61777.qmail@web12502.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.18.187.3] by web12502.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:47:54 PST Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:47:54 -0800 (PST) From: Marcia Barrett Nice Subject: Re: Anyone know where to get .... To: ulf@Alameda.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20020109110714.F29544@seven.alameda.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --- Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > little round stickers, white, with green writing > saying > "Q.A. SEAL" ? The ones you find on computers etc, to > make them "unopenable" ? > > -- > Regards, Ulf. > > Where to find the precise stickers you described, not really. However, Proftech is the company we get most of our office supplies from and would probably be able to hook you up. They have a website at www.proftech.com (surprisingly enough) and a toll free number of 800-937-8354. Or, if you just want to open a case you "shouldn't" you might try loosening the seal with steam... Marci ===== Marriage, n. THe state or condition of a community consisting of a master, a mistress and two slaves, making in all, two. -Ambrose Bierce, THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 13:33:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAC037B41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8DBBD2E for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28996 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:33:08 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g09LXVt43507; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Use of C++ with kernel and in embedded software. From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Jan 2002 13:33:31 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What are disadvantages of writing kernel modules or device drivers in C++? (I'm not sure it's practical or even possible without patching the kernel.) Are there such modules? (My quick search didn't find any.) In embedded software development, what fraction of current development (not legacy code) is done with each of C and C++. I fear it's something like 85%/10%, but I really have nothing to base my guess on. Maybe you don't either, but I suppose that several hunches are better than one. (I need to retrain myself in C or C++, for eventual use in embedded software development outside the M$ world. I hate to resort to crude C after my long experience with equally-crude FORTRAN and with elegant Ada and so would prefer to concentrate on the compromise of hacked-up C++, but I'm wondering if there's too little C++ work in embedded software development. Is almost all C++ work in high-level stuff, "designed for Windows(TM)", etc?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 13:37:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clink.schulte.org (clink.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30A3437B404 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from schulte-laptop.nospam.schulte.org (nb-65.netbriefings.com [209.134.134.65]) by clink.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA60243CD; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:14:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:13:43 -0600 To: Alfred Perlstein , Chris Coleman From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know offhand: I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? ), is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one be prepared to order from the site listed below? At 02:39 AM 1/9/2002 -0600, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >* Chris Coleman [020109 02:22] wrote: > > http://www.bsdmall.com/freebsd45.html > >Is that the new CD cover? (black with red lettering?) >It's really awesome. (yes just ordered it. :) ) > >-Alfred --chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 13:46:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-4.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7F5537B41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B4F2C66C7A; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:46:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:46:27 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Chris Coleman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109134627.C87410@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TiqCXmo5T1hvSQQg" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org>; from schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --TiqCXmo5T1hvSQQg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: > Anyone know offhand: >=20 > I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? = ),=20 > is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one = be=20 > prepared to order from the site listed below? You should cancel your WRS subscription and start a new one, because it won't be transferred. Kris --TiqCXmo5T1hvSQQg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PLozWry0BWjoQKURArAUAJ46G4kv7sNtE/jgTZvZaoInujUJ1QCfRSPZ NiTbY4ydvtJX9Unaziq2Wf4= =JJpx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TiqCXmo5T1hvSQQg-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 13:55:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4349637B41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6576 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2002 21:55:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 9 Jan 2002 21:55:18 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (root@laptop.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.4]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g09Lt1K58821; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@laptop.baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by laptop.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g09LrWK00468; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20020109134627.C87410@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:53:32 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Chris Coleman , Alfred Perlstein , Christopher Schulte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Jan-02 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: >> Anyone know offhand: >> >> I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? ), >> is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one be >> prepared to order from the site listed below? > > You should cancel your WRS subscription and start a new one, because > it won't be transferred. I think his question was whether or not WRS or its replacement is going to ship 4.5 CD's. I'm not sure and I think the tentative answer is yes. However, the only person I know who might know is Murray. *shrug* Don't necessarily choose against WRS just because they laid several developers off, they still do stuff for FreeBSD though it's not all stuff that's obvious and in plain view. > Kris -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 13:57:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-4.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C45737B405 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id C5CD766C7A; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:57:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:57:02 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: sales@bsdmall.com, Chris Coleman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109135702.A87650@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org>; from bright@mu.org on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 02:39:55AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 02:39:55AM -0600, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * Chris Coleman [020109 02:22] wrote: > > Daemon News is pleased to announce the availability of pre-orders for= =20 > > FreeBSD 4.5. This will be our first release of FreeBSD on CD. We will= =20 > > be using the official FreeBSD 4.5 ISOs created by the FreeBSD project. > > The expected release date for FreeBSD 4.5 is January 20th. We expect t= o=20 > > have CDs available two weeks after that. > >=20 > > We are taking pre-orders at this time to help gauge the number of CDs w= e=20 > > will need to produce. =20 > >=20 > > You can pre-order CDs from: > >=20 > > http://www.bsdmall.com/freebsd45.html >=20 > Is that the new CD cover? (black with red lettering?) > It's really awesome. (yes just ordered it. :) ) I agree! Looking at the text on that page though, it seems that it could do with some updating. For example: ---- Since our release of FreeBSD 2.0 in late 94, the performance, feature set, and stability of FreeBSD has improved dramatically. The largest change is a revamped virtual memory system with a merged VM/file buffer cache that not only increases performance, but also reduces FreeBSD's memory footprint, making a 5MB configuration a more acceptable minimum. Other enhancements include full NIS client and server support, transaction TCP support, dial-on-demand PPP, integrated DHCP support, an improved SCSI subsystem, ISDN support, support for ATM, FDDI, Fast and Gigabit Ethernet (1000Mbit) adapters, improved support for the latest Adaptec controllers, and many hundreds of bug fixes. ---- It took me a little while to work out that the "revamped VM system" was probably referring to 3.0-RELEASE. There's also some other old cruft in that text which describes changes from about 5 years ago. Another comment is that you might like to explicitly mention AMD and Pentium IV compatibility, as well as PC/98 architecture (maybe, although this is probably only useful for the japanese market) to possibly head off some new user confusion. Kris --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PLytWry0BWjoQKURAkt3AJoC6r/GVAyTmyNUq4RK7TAmmo2PDQCeL4d6 MIzmRlzvl433CvyJtZmDjxU= =hKmu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --xHFwDpU9dbj6ez1V-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 14: 6: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from seven.Alameda.net (seven.Alameda.net [64.81.63.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CA8237B417 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:05:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by seven.Alameda.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3EDD53A246; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:05:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:05:59 -0800 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Christopher Schulte Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Chris Coleman , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org>; from schulte+freebsd@nospam.schulte.org on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: > Anyone know offhand: > > I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? ), > is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one be > prepared to order from the site listed below? From what I recalled, WRS announced they would stop producing CDs after 4.4-RELEASE, including subscription. FreeBSDMall made an announcement to pickup those subscription service, but people have to resubscribe (they did not get a list of subscribers from WRS). > > At 02:39 AM 1/9/2002 -0600, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >* Chris Coleman [020109 02:22] wrote: > > > http://www.bsdmall.com/freebsd45.html > > > >Is that the new CD cover? (black with red lettering?) > >It's really awesome. (yes just ordered it. :) ) > > > >-Alfred > > --chris > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Regards, Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-865-0204 You can find my resume at: http://seven.Alameda.net/~ulf/resume.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 14:10:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C13237B416 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3386 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2002 22:10:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO server.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with DES-CBC3-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 9 Jan 2002 22:10:32 -0000 Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (root@laptop.baldwin.cx [192.168.0.4]) by server.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g09MAXK58902; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john@laptop.baldwin.cx) Received: (from john@localhost) by laptop.baldwin.cx (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g09M9vI00517; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:09:56 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Ulf Zimmermann Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Chris Coleman , Alfred Perlstein , Christopher Schulte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Jan-02 Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: >> Anyone know offhand: >> >> I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? ), >> is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one be >> prepared to order from the site listed below? > > From what I recalled, WRS announced they would stop producing CDs > after 4.4-RELEASE, including subscription. FreeBSDMall made an > announcement to pickup those subscription service, but people > have to resubscribe (they did not get a list of subscribers from > WRS). WRS said they might or might not produce 4.5 CD's. FreeBSDMall is still WRS right now. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 14:21:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (d13225.upc-d.chello.nl [213.46.13.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2427A37B41B for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from adv.devet.org (adv.devet.org [192.168.1.2]) by d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193EF68CF for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:21:15 +0100 (CET) Received: by adv.devet.org (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0A73C3F99; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:21:15 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:21:15 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109222114.GA11511@adv.devet.org> References: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.chat Organization: Eindhoven, the Netherlands From: devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> you write: >On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: >> Anyone know offhand: >> >> I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall ? ), >> is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should one be >> prepared to order from the site listed below? > >From what I recalled, WRS announced they would stop producing CDs >after 4.4-RELEASE, including subscription. FreeBSDMall made an >announcement to pickup those subscription service, but people >have to resubscribe (they did not get a list of subscribers from >WRS). When looking at http://www.freebsdmall.com/ I see "Proudly brought to you by WindRiver" and an 8 Nov 2001 announcement that they are accepting 4.5-RELEASE pre-orders. So it seems to me that they are still selling FreeBSD CD-ROMs. And I assume/hope that they will send me my subscription copy 4.5 CD without any further actions from my side: I received the 4.4 CD from WindRiver and have received no announcement from them that my subscription has been cancelled. Arjan -- Arjan de Vet, Eindhoven, The Netherlands URL : http://www.iae.nl/users/devet/ Work: http://www.madison-gurkha.com/ (Security, Open Source, Education) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 14:32:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15B037B41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 4A1383; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C23C49A15; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Alfred Perlstein , sales@bsdmall.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available In-Reply-To: <20020109135702.A87650@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I agree! > > Looking at the text on that page though, it seems that it could do > with some updating. For example: > Kris, did you just hear you volunteer? Send me the revised text and I will post it ASAP. -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 14:58:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC4137B400 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:58:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0266.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.11] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ORfo-0004xF-00; Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:58:21 -0800 Message-ID: <3C3CCB0B.76178BF1@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:58:19 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use of C++ with kernel and in embedded software. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > What are disadvantages of writing kernel modules or device drivers > in C++? (I'm not sure it's practical or even possible without patching > the kernel.) Are there such modules? (My quick search didn't find any.) The primary disadvantage is that it's the crt0.o code that calls the .init and .fini section entry points to do things like pre construct template derived class instances, pure virtual base classes, and the like, and that the kernel itself is not linked with any code that does that, so you are really limited in what C++ constructs you are permitted to use. A secondary problem is that the object file format was not set up correctly with attribution when C++ was released, and this was never corrected, because compiler writers are lazy, and it would have taken a modified linker to deal with the object files after that (very much the same reason we use prototypes for argument checking in ANSI C, instead of having the linker complain about mismatches, which it could easily do.. or even emit glue code to do the argument conversion automatically). The upshot of this is that C++ compilers engage in "decoration" of symbols, using the symbol itself, rather than a seperate field in an expanded symbol table, to do argument and return value attribution. The upshot of this is that the linker does not expect to link C and C++ code together, so you have to compile everything with C++ symbol decoration, or make specific glue modules for the symbols to resolve correctly. > In embedded software development, what fraction of current development > (not legacy code) is done with each of C and C++. I fear it's something > like 85%/10%, but I really have nothing to base my guess on. Maybe you > don't either, but I suppose that several hunches are better than one. It depends on what you mean by "embedded". For the strictest possible definition, almost zero code is written in Java or C++ or languages other than assembly, Forth, and C. For less strict definitions, you could use FreeBSD or Linux as an embedded OS, and then the amount of code depends on what the project is (with Perl probably beating C++ out by a wide margin). FWIW: I go by a moderately looser definition, and I've used C++ in embedded systems implementations before, as well as C, Perl, assembly, and Java. Java is not typically a good embedded language, because you can't deterministically control the amount of RAM your JVM uses because of garbage collection; one of the reasons I ended up using C++ in the particular project in question is that up front allocation with explicit deallocation was pretty much required to reasonably fit in the required memory footprint. > (I need to retrain myself in C or C++, for eventual use in embedded > software development outside the M$ world. I hate to resort to crude C > after my long experience with equally-crude FORTRAN and with elegant Ada > and so would prefer to concentrate on the compromise of hacked-up C++, > but I'm wondering if there's too little C++ work in embedded software > development. Is almost all C++ work in high-level stuff, "designed for > Windows(TM)", etc?) Most C++ programmers are actually writing C code, anyay. So are most Java programmers, if you come down to it (one of the most in-love-with-Java people I ever met wrote code that was effectively C code, and took no real advantage of Java at all, and even intentionally defeated some object oriented protection mechanisms by permitting the instancing of uninitialized -- read "unconstructed" -- objects, that had to have an explicit, seperate initialization done on them using a member function). The problem with C++ -- and Java -- is the same as the problem with C: it permits you to get around some of the protection mechanisms which are supposedly your reason for choosing the language in the first place. Learning C++, you will effectively learn C, as well, so you might as well know both. As far as the job market goes, though, the majority still require C, rather than C++ or Java, though you can sometimes get paid a premium for Java, if someone from the corporate office has fallen in love with the idea, and so there is money to pay the premium required to get people to code in the language. It's pretty easy to avoid situations like this (if you aren't just a mercenary who doesn't care, except to get the largest possible paycheck, then you will do whatever pays most anyway), since they ask for stupid things like "10 years Java experience", not realizing how long the language has been around, or that to even have 6/7 years, you have to be one of the people who worked on it back when it was "Oak". 8^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:30:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22F937B41A for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC20F5508; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:22:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-5-111.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.111]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCD450024; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:29:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 69853332A; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:29:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6512F4C2D; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:29:18 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:29:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Chad David , Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-System-Requirements: It said `Requires Linux 5.2 or better' so I installed FreeBSD! X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway: Asleep at the wheel. X-Too-Many-Headers: You betcha. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Jamie Bowden wrote: > :What happened to all those cs majors who came over from the english > :department? > > Someone told them they'd have to take some math classes, and they > disappeared like last year's vaporware. Well, you can only loose so many drinking contests before you start winning them.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:31: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E141637B437 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 49F713; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECB749A15; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:30:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:30:33 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Coleman To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Alfred Perlstein , sales@bsdmall.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available In-Reply-To: <20020109152927.A88489@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, I'll knock something up tonight. Thanks. -Chris > > Kris > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:30:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-169-107-4.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.169.107.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC6237B41E for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 55A3066D47; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:29:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:29:28 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Chris Coleman Cc: Kris Kennaway , Alfred Perlstein , sales@bsdmall.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020109152927.A88489@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020109135702.A87650@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from chrisc@vmunix.com on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 05:32:08PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 05:32:08PM -0500, Chris Coleman wrote: > > I agree! > >=20 > > Looking at the text on that page though, it seems that it could do > > with some updating. For example: > >=20 > Kris, did you just hear you volunteer? Send me the revised text and I > will post it ASAP. OK, I'll knock something up tonight. Kris --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PNJXWry0BWjoQKURAn+VAKDFvfeXmoh69YS0PdQWVK6B3eAOIACg5y6P F7zVrYp1AOLBbVvpq4x4nTM= =WAo+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:35:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47A337B421 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01B2B5503; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:28:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-5-111.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.111]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AF850024; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:35:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7305E332A; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:35:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BBB4C2D; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:35:26 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:35:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: David Kelly Cc: Nils Holland , Subject: Re: This guy is so far out In-Reply-To: <200201090356.g093uiF62306@grumpy.dyndns.org> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-System-Requirements: It said `Requires Linux 5.2 or better' so I installed FreeBSD! X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway: Asleep at the wheel. X-Too-Many-Headers: You betcha. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, David Kelly wrote: > Me too. ROTFL. Hit "Print..." and the slow site hung. Went off to do > other things and found 79 pages on the printer. At least I was using > the Mac and had selected 2-up per page so it was only 40 sheets. The > slashdot-ish followup comments are as funny as the original article. As I read that I thought it must have been written from only the worst viewpoint and entirely too close and too far at the same time. I would have bought that it was a real point-of-view. FWIW, I've done time in the tech-support trenches. > Oooh! I have an AMD CPU *and* the Perl book! And I've changed ISP's! > Didn't know how *bad* my lifestyle really was. :-) Uh, I used to work for an ISP and have many books. steve@ has me beaten by a long shot. What's funny is that last night I 'defaced' a Sparc IPC's boot banner and reset the hostid / mac address.. Now it thinks it's serial number is #31337. But I knew the owner wouldn't mind... it didn't have an OS yet, and he's one of the circle of h@xX0rs anyway. The other funny thing was watching a guy walk out of a building to go get keys and see one of the other guys I was with "break into" his laptop. Turns out $DUDE had an account on it and $OWNER hadn't changed the root password in three years... That was rectified shortly.... ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:36:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C952837B41D for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F0E55503; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:29:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-5-111.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.111]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B823C50024; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:36:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 31FB8332A; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CF4E4C2D; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 23:36:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available In-Reply-To: <20020109152927.A88489@xor.obsecurity.org> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-System-Requirements: It said `Requires Linux 5.2 or better' so I installed FreeBSD! X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway: Asleep at the wheel. X-Too-Many-Headers: You betcha. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Kris Kennaway wrote: > OK, I'll knock something up tonight. What? A desk? A lamp? A chair? :P ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 15:41:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from clink.schulte.org (clink.schulte.org [209.134.156.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B52E37B419 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from schulte-laptop.nospam.schulte.org (nb-65.netbriefings.com [209.134.134.65]) by clink.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BAEA243CD; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 17:41:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020109174011.03b89c20@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:40:54 -0600 To: Kris Kirby , Kris Kennaway From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Cc: In-Reply-To: References: <20020109152927.A88489@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:36 PM 1/9/2002 +0000, Kris Kirby wrote: >On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > OK, I'll knock something up tonight. > >What? A desk? A lamp? A chair? :P I could have a lot of fun with that statement, but this time I'll refrain. >----- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. >------------------------------------------------------- >"Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 16:20:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imo-m09.mx.aol.com (imo-m09.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47FB837B41C; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:20:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from TD790@aol.com by imo-m09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id n.17f.1dacc34 (16782); Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:20:25 -0500 (EST) From: TD790@aol.com Message-ID: <17f.1dacc34.296e3849@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:20:25 EST Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In a message dated 01/09/2002 10:49:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, float@firedrake.org writes: > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:51:09AM -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > > > > Uh oh. I just realized that THIS thread will be in google for the next 20 > > years. and we sound like a bunch of geeks.... good thing Im on an alias! > > Right, and we know from experience how difficult it is to figure out > that you're dennis@etinc.com. ;-) > ah, but it may not be so easy 20 years from now. db To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 16:50:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from parhelion.firedrake.org (parhelion.firedrake.org [212.135.138.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E644D37B419 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from float by parhelion.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16OTPo-0002q2-00; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:49:56 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:49:56 +0000 To: TD790@aol.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020110004956.GA10889@parhelion.firedrake.org> References: <17f.1dacc34.296e3849@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <17f.1dacc34.296e3849@aol.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i From: void Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 07:20:25PM -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 01/09/2002 10:49:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, > float@firedrake.org writes: > > > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:51:09AM -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > Uh oh. I just realized that THIS thread will be in google for the next > > >20 years. and we sound like a bunch of geeks.... good thing Im on an > > > alias! > > > > Right, and we know from experience how difficult it is to figure out > > that you're dennis@etinc.com. ;-) > > ah, but it may not be so easy 20 years from now. But I just said it, and this is all being archived, remember? -- Ben "An art scene of delight I created this to be ..." -- Sun Ra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 20:24:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D060137B400 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B893BDD8; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11220; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:24:06 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0A4ORb43571; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Use of C++ with kernel and in embedded software. References: <3C3CCB0B.76178BF1@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 09 Jan 2002 20:24:27 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C3CCB0B.76178BF1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 68 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The upshot of this is that the linker > does not expect to link C and C++ code together, so you have to > compile everything with C++ symbol decoration, or make specific > glue modules for the symbols to resolve correctly. So if I want to ship a system with a lightly-customized (picoBSD?) kernel and some totally custom C++ modules and drivers, can I have module initialization code or something do the mysterious C++/class init stuff and compile everything with C++ sysbol decoration (which I assume gets stripped out after linking)? If so, how would I learn to do it? Would available FreeBSD/Linux/Unix programming books give enough clues? > It depends on what you mean by "embedded". For the strictest > possible definition, almost zero code is written in Java or C++ > or languages other than assembly, Forth, and C. For less strict > definitions, you could use FreeBSD or Linux as an embedded OS, > and then the amount of code depends on what the project is (with > Perl probably beating C++ out by a wide margin). You suprise me with that "almost zero"; there's no reason I know of that a custom no-OS/mini-OS program wouldn't better be written in C++, but I trust that you know actual practices better than I. That's why I asked. I had in mind all of your definitions. Basically, software that ships with the hardware it runs on, which won't be changed by the user. But presumably most often either a single compiled program running off hardware interrupts (using custom or off-the-shelf mini-kernel) or a few compiled modules or programs running under FreeBSD or Linux. I suppose the definition streaches to include multiple programs and databases on multiple computers, etc., like I once worked on, but hardly considered "embedded"; not sure why not. > The problem with C++ -- and Java -- is the same as the problem > with C: it permits you to get around some of the protection > mechanisms which are supposedly your reason for choosing the > language in the first place. But of course its nice to have the option of protection mechanisms which are more easily enforced by C++ code review than reviewing C code for unsafe code. (I'm guessing.) And there's many other benefits. > Learning C++, you will effectively learn C, as well, so you > might as well know both. Yeh, that's what I thought, but I'm now thinking that if I'm going to go after an embedded software job I'd be silly to work on the language which has fewest jobs and takes way longer to learn well (and my time is running short). It would also probably be better to develop some skills with actual (FreeBSD) device drivers which, in C++, is apparently quite awkward and little done. > As far as the job market goes, though, the majority still require > C, rather than C++ or Java, though you can sometimes get paid a > premium for Java, I did a very little Java GUI programming and liked it, but have ruled that out as too tied to M$Win (around here anyway), too likely to be booring and repetitious, too likely to become unpopular, and too little used in embedded software. Thanks for your input. I think you confirmed that C++ won't be nearly as marketable as C (in embedded software jobs), but you didn't convince me that I should learn (and practice) C++ anyway, for now. As I write this, I seem to have already lost all doubt in the matter, but I'll keep reading this thread and I guess I should look at some job advertising which I haven't done for a long time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 9 20:40: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A813B37B402 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:39:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 50ADD66D43; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:39:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:39:48 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: void Cc: TD790@aol.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020109203948.A836@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <17f.1dacc34.296e3849@aol.com> <20020110004956.GA10889@parhelion.firedrake.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020110004956.GA10889@parhelion.firedrake.org>; from float@firedrake.org on Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:49:56AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:49:56AM +0000, void wrote: > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 07:20:25PM -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 01/09/2002 10:49:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 > > float@firedrake.org writes: > >=20 > > > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:51:09AM -0500, TD790@aol.com wrote: > > > >=20 > > > > Uh oh. I just realized that THIS thread will be in google for the = next=20 > > > >20 years. and we sound like a bunch of geeks.... good thing Im on an > > > > alias! > > > =20 > > > Right, and we know from experience how difficult it is to figure out > > > that you're dennis@etinc.com. ;-) > >=20 > > ah, but it may not be so easy 20 years from now. >=20 > But I just said it, and this is all being archived, remember? Take this thread to -chat, please! Kris --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PRsTWry0BWjoQKURAjpVAJ9ZPZCw0JOUffk/VmZhek+W1su/ZQCg8Wse SaKTCh/AiEFEphYt0DbEuzk= =GkEr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UlVJffcvxoiEqYs2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 2:43:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548CA37B404 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 351FD239A08; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:43:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:43:20 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Ulf Zimmermann Cc: Christopher Schulte , Alfred Perlstein , Chris Coleman , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 4.5 Pre-Orders Available Message-ID: <20020110104320.GA5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <20020109023955.C5384@elvis.mu.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20020109151022.03b47e68@pop3s.schulte.org> <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020109140559.H29544@seven.alameda.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: daemonnews X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-01-09 14:05 -0800, Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 03:13:43PM -0600, Christopher Schulte wrote: > >=20 > > I had/have a subscription with cdrom.com / windriver ( now freebsdmall = ? ),=20 > > is it safe to assume it will carry over to 4.5 and beyond, or should on= e be=20 > > prepared to order from the site listed below? >=20 > >From what I recalled, WRS announced they would stop producing CDs > after 4.4-RELEASE, including subscription. FreeBSDMall made an > announcement to pickup those subscription service, but people > have to resubscribe (they did not get a list of subscribers from > WRS). FreeBSDMall !=3D BSDmall. The FreeBSDMall.com domain, owned by WRS, now uses Internet.com (BSDcentral.com) for order fulfilment. Their store appears still to be in business, and I have spoken with someone fairly recently who has purchased and received goods from it. I know no details of the future plans for the store. BSDmall.com belongs to Daemon News. Without regard to any other vendor's plans or activities, we are producing and selling FreeBSD 4.5 CDs, as we will do for all releases subsequent to 4.5. We also offer CD subscription plans for all open source BSD OSes in any combination. Since we are not associated with any other FreeBSD CD vendor, you must actually place an order on the BSDmall if you wish to buy something=20 from us. Daemon News/BSDmall cannot transfer your subscription from another vendor to us--if that's what you want, you have to order from us and cancel with the other vendor. =20 Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Bureaucrats cut red tape--lengthwise. mailto:gsutter@daemonnews.org=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8PXBIIBUx1YRd/t0RAvN3AJ9kv5TwqNG4f6DSp+S/bZip9mpKWQCcDoEI 0NO1U4dKEy9X7mlEnPj84bE= =PEqP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 2:48:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82E7937B404 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:48:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 16OclE-000MZ9-00 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:48:40 +0200 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:48:40 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just noticed this, FWIW: http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via /boot/loader for now." -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 5: 7:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BAA37B402 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 05:07:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16Oeve-0009b2-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:07:34 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id g0AD7Xi41846 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:07:33 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:07:33 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Code Complete by McConnell - comments? Message-ID: <20020110130733.A41818@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this a worthy addition to any programmer's library, or is it too MS biased? Are any or most of the guidelines applicable to BSD source code, or is BSD a bit of a relic style-wise? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 6:34:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FB437B400 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02845; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:33:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:33:48 -0700 To: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers In-Reply-To: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org These people are apparently under the mistaken impression that users of BSD want to be dependent upon GPLed software. (Oh, yes! Tie me up, please!) --Brett Glass At 03:48 AM 1/10/2002, Johann Visagie wrote: >Just noticed this, FWIW: > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > /boot/loader for now." > >-- V > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 10:27:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3849C37B419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) id g0AIQpG87803; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:26:51 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020110102651.A87674@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 07:33:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 07:33:48AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > These people are apparently under the mistaken impression that > users of BSD want to be dependent upon GPLed software. (Oh, yes! > Tie me up, please!) Careful there Brett. You might just get a few offers ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 11:35:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457BD37B404 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0030.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.30] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Okz3-0006eK-00; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:35:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C3DECFF.D9919AC2@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:35:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johann Visagie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers References: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Johann Visagie wrote: > Just noticed this, FWIW: > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > /boot/loader for now." Perhaps http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#download "For now, GNU GRUB is not released publicly yet, but you can still get the test releases from alpha.gnu.org:/gnu/grub/, and the latest version from the CVS. See our project page on Savannah, for more information." Has something to do with the lack of volunteers. Also, their terminology is non-standard; for example, what the heck is "multiboot compliant", which they complain about in the FAQ? I boot my FreeBSD system from BootMagic pretty much every day, no problem at all; it sounds like a GRUB problem, not a Linux/ FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD/everyone-but-us-133t-d00d5 problem. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 12: 9: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F18937B405 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id g0AK90n41152 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:09:00 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0AK9Hv09940 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:09:17 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200201102009.g0AK9Hv09940@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> ; from Brett Glass "Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:33:48 MST." Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:09:17 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Said Brett Glass: > These people are apparently under the mistaken impression that > users of BSD want to be dependent upon GPLed software. (Oh, yes! > Tie me up, please!) Do not presume to speak for all BSD users. M > --Brett Glass > > At 03:48 AM 1/10/2002, Johann Visagie wrote: > > >Just noticed this, FWIW: > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > > /boot/loader for now." > > > >-- V -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 12:13:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B8C37B419 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:13:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 02EFA66D43; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:13:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:13:47 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Johann Visagie Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020110121347.A10145@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za>; from johann@egenetics.com on Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > Just noticed this, FWIW: >=20 > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd >=20 > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > /boot/loader for now." Well, that's how you're _supposed_ to boot FreeBSD. Kris --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PfX7Wry0BWjoQKURAkBSAJ9nJmIdr+3hBNhG4cZ2gIjZpNv+VwCeNdGM 7H+5Nv0UGpuNxhKu82Zv1kw= =txeA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --W/nzBZO5zC0uMSeA-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 12:18:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from parhelion.firedrake.org (parhelion.firedrake.org [212.135.138.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FE137B405 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from float by parhelion.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 16OleZ-0004AP-00; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:18:23 +0000 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:18:23 +0000 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Oh my god, Google has a USENET archive going back to 1981! Message-ID: <20020110201823.GA16008@parhelion.firedrake.org> References: <17f.1dacc34.296e3849@aol.com> <20020110004956.GA10889@parhelion.firedrake.org> <20020109203948.A836@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020109203948.A836@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i From: void Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 08:39:48PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > Take this thread to -chat, please! Uh, Kris, it *is* on -chat. -- Ben "An art scene of delight I created this to be ..." -- Sun Ra To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 14:25:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93A437B400 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from user-112vp95.biz.mindspring.com ([66.47.229.37] helo=FRANKENFURTER) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Oncx-0003sR-00; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:24:52 -0500 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:32:17 -0800 From: Brian Sobolak X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.51) Personal Reply-To: Brian Sobolak X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <23101605971.20020110143217@mindspring.com> To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Code Complete by McConnell - comments? In-Reply-To: <20020110130733.A41818@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020110130733.A41818@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hi Thursday, January 10, 2002, 5:07:33 AM, you wrote: jm> Is this a worthy addition to any programmer's library, or is it too MS jm> biased? Are any or most of the guidelines applicable to BSD source jm> code, or is BSD a bit of a relic style-wise? In general, I like his books a lot. While he uses examples from acting as a consultant to Microsoft, I wouldn't say that it is Microsoft centric. I'd say Code Complete is a worthy addition, in so far as it has actual data to back up common questions that come up such as "how long should function names be?" or "how much commenting is enough commenting?". He cites studies, which I find useful compared with similar books I've seen which seem to usually be "some guy's thoughts on software." It gives broad recommendations, and will probably be useful in challenging some bad habits you might have acquired over the years. As for the code, the examples are in C, Pascal and Basic (not visual basic, but BASIC). I can't comment if it's useful for BSD source code (i haven't dabbled in those potent potions yets), but it's useful. I'd also strongly recommend his other books, perhaps even more than Code Complete. The Software Project Survival Guide is short, and gives some simple basics about project management and software development. It's easy to say "I'm a coder, I don't need that crap", but it's really worth reading. If you've ever worked on a project that's been horribly buggy, excessively late, or flat-out cancelled months after deadline, you might stand to learn something. Try before you buy: he has excerpts on his website. http://www.construx.com/stevemcc/ (requires frames support) brian -- Got work? http://www.planetshwoop.com/resume/ This is how I think: http://www.planetshwoop.com/blog/ Brian Sobolak sobolak@mindspring.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 17:34:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from joshua.nobaloney.net (joshua.nobaloney.net [63.108.93.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F044837B416 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobaloney.net (adsl-64-170-52-104.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.170.52.104]) (authenticated) by ns1.ns-one.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g0B1YpT09320 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:34:51 -0800 Message-ID: <3C3E4139.CB6EBC99@nobaloney.net> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:34:49 -0800 From: Jeff Lasman Organization: nobaloney.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: This guy is so far out References: <20020108175814.A2044@tisys.org><20020108090000.T74874-100000@localhost> <20020108122219.46de1a22.donniejones18@yahoo.com> <005101c19884$b83d88b0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Come'on; of course it's one gigantic joke. A really good one, as I noticed from the third or fourth paragraph. Not that I'm great or anything... only that I followed some of his links, which makes it quite clear. For example, his link to a hacker-friendly ISP leads to @home. Jeff Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Yes, that certainly seems possible. -- Jeff Lasman Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting nobaloney.net P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA 92517 voice: (909) 778-9980 * fax: (702) 548-9484 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 20:27: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7772937B417 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EE51F66D43; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:27:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:27:03 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Bill Gates is dead Message-ID: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline http://www.billgatesisdead.com/ :-( Kris --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PmmWWry0BWjoQKURAjIzAKDSmCe0VMdepL0rsrAb2Ln62XbkbgCg+jnJ JQFpD6Rm01lZPole6Fj88aI= =ryCm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 22: 5:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poontang.schulte.org (poontang.schulte.org [209.134.156.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C36A37B41F for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarmap.nospam.schulte.org (tarmap.schulte.org [209.134.156.198]) by poontang.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CFBD148C; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:05:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020110235952.03a8dea0@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:04:57 -0600 To: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.org From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: Bill Gates is dead In-Reply-To: <20020110202703.A15549@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wrote a parody a few years back about this same subject, and would you believe the local news media actually came to my home for an interview, and featured a 2 minute segment on the evening news about me. Crazy....... The news report is available as a real media stream, if anyone cares to see, from my website. Just scroll down to 'On the news... 2001-11-09' It must have been a slow news day. At 08:27 PM 1/10/2002 -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: >http://www.billgatesisdead.com/ > >:-( > >Kris --chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 10 22:42:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3AA37B404 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 16OvOO-000Fro-00; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:42:20 +0200 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 08:42:20 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020111064220.GA60902@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <20020110104840.GP82461@fling.sanbi.ac.za> <20020110121347.A10145@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020110121347.A10145@xor.obsecurity.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway on 2002-01-10 (Thu) at 12:13:47 -0800: > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > Just noticed this, FWIW: > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > > /boot/loader for now." > > Well, that's how you're _supposed_ to boot FreeBSD. Puzzled me as well. *shrug* -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 1:32:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shiva.jussieu.fr (shiva.jussieu.fr [134.157.0.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E4237B404 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.1]) by shiva.jussieu.fr (8.12.1/jtpda-5.4) with ESMTP id g0B9VxYD028506 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:31:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (49gc9dj9y5h7ubr0@niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr [134.157.10.41]) by parthe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.1/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id g0B9Vxj27160 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:31:59 +0100 (MET) Received: (from talon@localhost) by niobe.lpthe.jussieu.fr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0B9VxD46081 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:31:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from talon) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:31:59 +0100 From: Michel TALON To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020111103159.A46044@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway on 2002-01-10 (Thu) at 12:13:47 -0800: > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > Just noticed this, FWIW: > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for > > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So > > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > > /boot/loader for now." > > Well, that's how you're _supposed_ to boot FreeBSD. >Puzzled me as well. The point is that grub is able to boot FreeBSD by booting /boot/loader first, but is not able to boot directly the OpenBSD kernel (and presumably the NetBSD kernel) while it was able to do it some months ago. Now you have to use chainloader, that is boot the boot blocks of the OpenBSD partition that in turn boot the kernel. Since grub is a VERY convenient booting tool, particularly for rescue situations, this is inconvenient. Hence it is particularly reasonable for grub people to ask help to understand why grub does not work now for *BSD and solve the problem. As for the multiboot specification, this is a grub people concept that no existing OS respects (even Linux) except HURD. They explain it in an info document. Nevertheless grub is a very nice program, which understands many filesystems (in particular the Linux, *BSD filesystems) is able to analyse and boot a lot of OS, and is very easy to use. It is in particular much more convenient than the more standard Lilo program and is clearly much inspired by the BSD booting programs. Obviously /boot/loader has much in common with it, but as far as i have tried some features of /boot/loader don't seem to work correctly, for example trying to retreive kernels from non UFS partitions - correct me if i am wrong (in principle it should work, from what i read in man libstand) while with grub i can effectively load things in any supported filesystem. -- Michel TALON To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 1:38:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-66.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2064B37B419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B7D4566D43; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:38:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:38:31 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Michel TALON Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020111013831.A17989@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020111103159.A46044@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020111103159.A46044@lpthe.jussieu.fr>; from talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr on Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:31:59AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:31:59AM +0100, Michel TALON wrote: > Kris Kennaway on 2002-01-10 (Thu) at 12:13:47 -0800: > > > > On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: > > > Just noticed this, FWIW: > > > > > > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd > > > > > > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works = for > > > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. = So > > > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and > > > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via > > > /boot/loader for now." > > > > Well, that's how you're _supposed_ to boot FreeBSD.=20 >=20 > >Puzzled me as well. >=20 > The point is that grub is able to boot FreeBSD by booting /boot/loader > first, but is not able to boot directly the OpenBSD kernel (and > presumably the NetBSD kernel) while it was able to do it some months ago. Yeah, I appreciate that it doesn't work for OpenBSD or NetBSD, but it sounds like it's doing exactly the right thing on FreeBSD. Under FreeBSD if you boot the kernel directly from boot2 then it doesn't load the symbol table and you get missing symbols from libkvm at runtime for things like top and vmstat. Kris --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8PrKWWry0BWjoQKURAlXPAJoC+8RPZjgb8BWEEUJUrhpthjbZvQCeMD6k qys1u208SYpnzvER2JWYvSA= =YvoH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 1:56:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.noproblem.net (www.noproblem.net [213.165.154.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D102A37B419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by www.noproblem.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA00917 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:56:11 GMT Received: from Thomas (adsl146.noproblem.net [213.165.134.14]) by www.noproblem.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA00894 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:56:02 GMT Reply-To: From: "Marianne Puren" To: Subject: Your details Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:02:07 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS perl-11 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Further to your contact with the No Problem Net Ltd company (Managing director: Thomas Beauchamp), we wish to send you post and be able to join you by the phone. Consequently we would like to get your current address and phone number. Expecting for your early answer, we thank you in advance. Marianne Puren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 2:29:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5832237B419 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3669 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2002 10:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 11 Jan 2002 10:28:59 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20020111103159.A46044@lpthe.jussieu.fr> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:28:25 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Michel TALON Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Jan-02 Michel TALON wrote: > Kris Kennaway on 2002-01-10 (Thu) at 12:13:47 -0800: >> >> On Thu, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:48:40PM +0200, Johann Visagie wrote: >> > Just noticed this, FWIW: >> > >> > http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/#bsd >> > >> > "We really need help by BSD hackers. Currently, almost nobody works for >> > BSD-based operating systems, such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD. So >> > we have critical problems in booting later versions of NetBSD and >> > OpenBSD. FreeBSD is not a big problem, because GRUB can boot it via >> > /boot/loader for now." >> >> Well, that's how you're _supposed_ to boot FreeBSD. > >>Puzzled me as well. > > Obviously /boot/loader has much in common with it, but as far as i have tried > some features of /boot/loader don't seem to work correctly, for example > trying to retreive kernels from non UFS partitions - correct me if i am > wrong (in principle it should work, from what i read in man > libstand) while with grub i can effectively load things in any supported > filesystem. It works great for CD9660 filesystems on both alpha and i386. What filesystem were you trying? It might be a bug in that filesystem code in libstand. The loader doesn't really care what fs it gets its kernel from. Are there any other bugs you have seen with loader? Have you filed any PR's? :) -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 3:57: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pios.library.ohyama.toyama.jp (pios.library.ohyama.toyama.jp [61.127.24.243]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 928E337B42B; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 03:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.eudoramail.com ([207.93.225.196]) by pios.library.ohyama.toyama.jp (Build 101 8.9.3/3.5Wpl7-pios) with ESMTP id UAA28006; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:48:16 +0900 From: WSCHwatch@eudoramail.com Message-ID: <0000723b1f00$00005805$00006b6e@mx2.eudoramail.com> To: Subject: WSCH: Baby Pharmaceutical on the Rise T Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 05:45:46 -1800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: WSCHnews25@eudoramail.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org = Investors
<= td width=3D100% height=3D372 valign=3Dtop align=3Dleft>
  &n= bsp;   Key Points about = WSCH:
  • The products and me= dical therapies developed by WSCH represent possibly the most important= breakthrough in the field of Dermatology in the last fifty years.&nbs= p;

  • WSCH anticipates= FDA approval on seven over-the-counter products within the next ye= ar, which will provide significant revenue in the retail drug market.
    =
  • WSCH has experie= nced a success rate of 90% during clinical studies, completely elim= inating skin disease from 90% of all patients treated.

  • By year five, WSCH plans to have annua= lized revenue over $525 million and over $125 million in EBIT.  This does not take into account income from OTC products which wi= ll be substantial.

 <= /caption>
=

Emergin= g Growth Stock Alert
Wasatch Pharmaceuticals: A Company on the Rise

Company Name &n= bsp;Wasatch Pharmaceuticals (OTCBB: WSCH)
Current = Price$0.066
52-We= ek High$27.50
5= 2-Week Low$0.065
<= /div>

Company Background

Wasatch Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a fourteen year o= ld company with a record of outstanding achievements in the field of Derma= tology.  Under the name of its subsidiary, American Institute of Skin= Care (AISC), Wasatch has operated two prototype clinics for the la= st five years where the products and medical therapies have been tested an= d proven on hundreds of patients.  The Company's activities have been= centered on research in the area of serious skin diseases.  A= concurrent discovery and benefit is WSCH's dramatic success in the area o= f skin rejuvenation.  Seeing the high growth potential from major fun= ding, WSCH elected to become a public company less than two years a= go.

Wasatch's major successes i= n the area of skin diseases include: 

Cystic Acne, Eczema= , Seborrhea, Contact Dermatitis, Molluscum, Folliculitis, Acne Rosacea and= less prevalent skin diseases.  

Interestingly, the= se skin disorders account for more than 70% of all business in the = field of dermatology for which there are very few (if any) safe, effective= therapies like those developed by Wasatch.

Because the th= erapies developed by Wasatch dominate this area of medicine, WSCH h= as elected to market its products via company-owned clinics throughout the= United States.  This decision has resulted in the establishment of <= b>two research clinics in Utah for the purpose of implementing procedu= res within the clinics pursuant to testing and confirming the results that= were achieved in past clinical trials.  Due to its success rate o= f 90% on hundreds of patients over a five year period, WSCH's clinics = are now on line with insurance providers independent of HMOs.  Effort= s to establish Preferred Provider ship status with HMOs are presently bein= g pursued. 

Most Recent WSCH News

 

Wasatch Pharmaceutical Inc. Announc= es a New Physician Marketing Campaign and Listing On German Stock Exchange= s

MURRAY, Utah--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Nov.= 27, 2001--Wasatch Pharmaceutical Inc. (OTCBB:WSCH - news) CEO Gary Heesch announced today a marketing camp= aign directed to physicians. A direct link has been established on a physi= cian recruiting Web site making available therapies for the treatment of c= ystic acne, acne, folliculitis, and skin rejuvenation. Physicians will fin= d the benefits of these treatment therapies by logging on to the "= X Acne" link at physicianssearc= h.com. This physician search Web site typically receives over 2= 00,000 hits per month. Mr. Heesch reminded, "Our treatment therap= y products are also available via the AISC Online Store at restoremyskin.com.'"

These skin treatment products come in kit form providing a = 90-day supply to patients for the full treatment program. Included in the = kit is an instructional video on the treatment therapy allowing the patien= t to use these products in their home. The therapies, when used as instruc= ted, achieve a success rate of eradication in excess of 90% with no sid= e effects of any consequence. Previously, these therapies and associat= ed products were only available through the two prototype clinics in Utah.= The availability of these products will open the way for family practitio= ners, pediatricians, internists and other primary care physicians to retai= n their patients under their care during the treatment of these common ski= n disorders. The benefit to insurance providers is the potential to sav= e millions of dollars in reimbursement costs by freeing the physician and = the patient from ongoing treatment.

In the coming year, six additional therapies will be made availabl= e for a broad range of skin disorders that are badly in need of succes= sful therapies.

Gary Heesch also an= nounced the listing of Wasatch Pharmaceutical stock on the Frankfurt an= d Berlin Exchanges in Germany. Active trading on these exchanges will = take place upon the completion of a research report in Germany. Said Mr. H= eesch, "We feel this is a significant event as Wasatch will gain w= ider exposure as a leader in dermatology and will put buying pressure on its stock to reflect the true value of a company t= hat has committed years of research and development of products that allow= people with serious skin disorders to live normal and more productive liv= es."

There may be forward-loo= king statements in this release. Investors are cautioned that such forward= -looking statements involve risks and uncertainties, including, without li= mitation, continued acceptance of the Company's products, increased levels= of competition, new products introduced by competitors, changes in the ra= tes of subscriber acquisition and retention, and other risks detailed from= time to time in the Company's periodic reports filed with the Securities = and Exchange Commission.

Projections, Objectives, and Statistics

 Over a five year period, AISC (WSCH's subsidiary) p= lans to establish 350 clinics in over 100 major population areas.&n= bsp; The company plans to hire over 150 medical doctors for these clinics,= train over 1,000 medical assistants and treat over 2,000,000 patients<= /b>. Also by year five, WSCH plans to have annualized over $525 million= in revenue and over $125 million in EBIT. This does not take into acc= ount income from OTC products which will be substantial. 

<= blockquote>

  As of 1991, there were = approximately 14 million chronic acne and eczema patients annually in the = United States, with the highest percentage between 18 to 44 years of = age. The actual number of patients with any type of acne is significa= ntly higher.  Seven billion dollars is spent annually on derma= tological pharmaceutical products for these disorders. 

=   In 1994, the teen population reached 25 million. During the next d= ecade, it will grow at nearly twice the rate of 
the overall p= opulation (according to U.S. Census Bureau projections). Acne pat= ients are primarily teenagers, whereas eczema patients range from inf= ants to the elderly.

A Look at the Competition

= Dermatologists are the primary competitors of WSCH's clinics. Dermatologis= ts specialize in the treatment of skin disorders and prescribe medications= to treat the disorder.  However, competing products address the s= ymptoms of acne and eczema, not the cause. 

<= font face=3DVerdana size=3D2>The competition's skin care treatments includ= e prescription medications (oral and external use drugs prescribed by derm= atologists and other doctors) and over-the-counter products.  
Several common prescription medications include: 
= 1) E-Mycin for oral and topical use, 2) Cleocin for oral and topical use, = 3) Tetracycline for oral and topical use, and 4) Accutane for oral use onl= y.  

Over-the-counter acne medications include: = ;
1) Clearasil and Oxy creams, 2) generic brand creams, 3) medicat= ed pads, and 4) medicated soaps. 

Many of the competit= ion's oral medications have serious side effects.

Costs for competing treatments range from $2.50 for= medicated soaps to $200 for Accutane oral medication prescription.  = Treatments are on-going.  Over time a person can spend an unlimite= d amount of money on such treatments.  An example would be someon= e who spent $1,500 for a 22 week program of Accutane which includes blood = testing.  Another example would be someone who has had acne for many = years and has spent in excess of $34,000. 

At this time there is no known competitor who treats t= he causes of these skin disorders and no competitor can claim a success= rate equal to that of Wasatch's treatments. 

Final Thoughts on WSCH<= /b>

Wi= th a proven success rate of 90% in a field that affects so many of our liv= es, Wasatch has clearly positioned itself in a market hungry and desper= ate for successful products and treatment.  WSCH has recently exp= anded its marketing presence (as seen in the above press release) and will= continue to aggressively broaden awareness over the near term. The listin= g of WSCH on the German stock exchange is another sign of the compa= ny's credibility and ambitious plans to establish itself as a major glo= bal player in the field of dermatology.  

WSCH has = taken on a completely different approach.  By addressing the causes o= f skin disorders rather than the symptoms, WSCH will help to successfully = eliminate skin disease altogether. Given its 

1. Successful = 14-year history and plans for expansion
2. Impressive revenue projecti= ons ($525 million+ annualized by year 5 and $125 million in EBIT)
= 3. Virtually unmatched success rate of 90%...

...and so much = more, WSCH will certainly watched by savvy investors for some time to come= .

DISCLAIMER= : 
Information within this email contains "forward looking s= tatements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of= 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statemen= ts that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, expect= ations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, goals, assumptions or fut= ure events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be= "forward looking statements."

Forward looking statemen= ts are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the st= atements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties wh= ich could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those p= resently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be ide= ntified through the use of words such as "projects", "fores= ee", "expects", "will,"  "anticipates," "estimates," "believes," "understands" o= r that by statements indicating certain actions "may,"= ; "could," or <= font face=3DVerdana size=3D1 color=3D#5F5F5F>"might" = occur.  All information provided within this email pertaining to inve= sting, stocks, securities must be understood as information provided and n= ot investment advice. Emerging Growth Stock Alert advises all readers and = subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities = representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this ema= il.  None of the material within this report shall be construed as an= y kind of investment advice.

In compliance with the Securities Ac= t of 1933, Section17(b), Emerging Growth Stock Alert discloses the receipt= of $40,000 cash from a third party for the publication of this report and= additional services related= to WSCH. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such= compensation.  All factual information in this report was gathe= red from public sources, including but not limited to SEC filings, Company= Press Releases, and the company's website at wasatchpharm.com. Emerging Growth Stock Alert believes t= his information to be reliable but can make no guarantee as to its accurac= y or completeness. Use of the material within this email constitutes your = acceptance of these terms.



To b= e removed from future mailings, please respond
to this email with &qu= ot;Remove" in the subject line

<= /div> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 10:16:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ms68.hinet.net (ms68.hinet.net [168.95.4.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4263837B404 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:16:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rose.cirx.org (d3m0n@rose.cirx.org [211.72.15.245]) by ms68.hinet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA01757 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 02:16:47 +0800 (CST) Received: (from asee@localhost) by rose.cirx.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0BIGPF88334 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 02:16:25 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from asee) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 02:16:25 +0800 From: Daniel Chen-Hsi Lee To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <20020111181625.GA88296@rose.cirx.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 20:24:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hanmail.net (s210-221-67-24.thrunet.ne.kr [210.221.67.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C21D737B421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:22:49 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: buriburidocter@hanmail.net From: ÀÌâ¿ì (Çѱ¹ÀºÇ೪¹«¿¬±¸¿ø ¿øÀå) To: Subject: (È«º¸)ºÎÆйæÁöÀ§¿øȸ¿Í ½É°¢ÇÑ ³ª¶ó°æÁ¦¿Í ³óÃ̹®Á¦¿¡´ëÇÏ¿© °í½ÉÇϽôºв² ¾Ë·Áµå¸³´Ï´Ù Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:23:09 +0900 X-User: 2.4- Message-Id: <20020112042249.C21D737B421@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org

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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 11 23:16:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.humangate.com (211-41-175-189.rev.krline.net [211.41.175.189]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A9F237B421 for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20806 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2002 17:18:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO x0m1g9) (211.218.202.253) by ns.humangate.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2002 17:18:40 -0000 From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?s6q0qbiu?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?KLGksO0pIMDMwaa0wiC9w8Dbx8+8vL/kLi4u?= Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 02:13:32 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0F13A.93A32C00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-Id: <20020112071625.0A9F237B421@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0F13A.93A32C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 ICAgILjewM8gs7u/68DMILq4wMzB9r7KwLi8vL/kLi4uLj8NCr+pseK4piDFrLivx8+8vL/k Li4uIA0KIA== ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0F13A.93A32C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWw+IA0KPGhlYWQ+IA0KPG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj0icmVmcmVzaCIgY29udGVudD0i MDtVUkw9aHR0cDovL2hvbWUuaGFubWlyLmNvbS9+cW5ma2R3azcveG1hcy/G+y5odG1sIj4N CjwvaGVhZD4gDQo8Ym9keT4gDQq43sDPILO7v+vAzCC6uMDMwfa+ysC4vLy/5C4uLi4/PGJy Pg0KPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL2hvbWUuaGFubWlyLmNvbS9+cW5ma2R3azcveG1hcy/G+y5o dG1sIj48Zm9udCBjb2xvcj1yZWQgc2l6ZT01PjxiPr+pseI8L2I+PC9mb250PjwvYT64piDF rLivx8+8vL/kLi4uIDxicj4NCjwvYm9keT4gDQo8L2h0bWw+DQoNCg== ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C0F13A.93A32C00-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 12 10:32:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl [217.97.36.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01AD437B428 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from doc@localhost) by pr93.lublin.sdi.tpnet.pl (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0CIaop60183 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:36:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from doc@lublin.t1.pl) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:36:48 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: QuakeForge Message-ID: <20020112183648.GA60174@lublin.t1.pl> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3?= Pasternak Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I checked Quake Forge today and played with it a bit. It's a really nice to see, that this game runs so smoothly on BSD. When could I expect Quake 2? :) -- mp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 12 15:10:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B2EA37B400 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-299.wobline.de [212.68.71.20]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0CNARv24586 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:10:27 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (jodie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.2]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0CNBNX71286 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:11:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0CNAaS92318 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:10:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:10:00 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FIC on updating BIOS ;-) Message-ID: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD jodie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 12:04AM up 12:06, 2 users, load averages: 0.10, 0.05, 0.02 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, I'd like to share this with you: I just went to the website of FIC (http://www.fic.com.tw) in order to see if an updated BIOS for my system is available. When doing so, I stumbled abounf FIC's "BIOS FAQ", which contains a section that somehow sounds as if FIC thinks their users are generally stupid. I somehow found this "warning" somewhat amusing, so here it is: "It is recommended to refrain from updating BIOS without a good reason. If you don't see your problem listed in the fix list, do not update your BIOS - better go to a shareware website (www.winfiles.com, www.shareware.com, tucows.com) and update your software or do something less dangerous." I had to laugh when I read this - it seems to say something like: "You're to stupid, if you want to mess around with your computer, download some software, but keep your fingers off the BIOS! ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 12 16: 0: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.jodeit.com (mail.jodeit.com [207.10.131.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3207437B417 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from gdennyj [207.10.131.111] by mail.jodeit.com (SMTPD32-6.06) id AB3DC720110; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:48:13 -0500 Message-ID: <049601c19bc6$3e0242d0$6f830acf@gdennyj> From: "Denny Jodeit" To: References: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> Subject: Re: FIC on updating BIOS ;-) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:07:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I had to laugh when I read this - it seems to say something like: "You're > to stupid, if you want to mess around with your computer, download some > software, but keep your fingers off the BIOS! ;-) > Actually, for the average user, this would be a safe statement....... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 12 16:17:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-201-166.mmcable.com [65.31.201.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18CAF37B405 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 69820 invoked by uid 100); 13 Jan 2002 00:17:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15424.53757.481922.381948@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:17:01 -0600 To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FIC on updating BIOS ;-) In-Reply-To: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> References: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.43 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.4-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nils Holland types: > Folks, > "It is recommended to refrain from updating BIOS without a good reason. If > you don't see your problem listed in the fix list, do not update your BIOS > - better go to a shareware website (www.winfiles.com, www.shareware.com, > tucows.com) and update your software or do something less dangerous." > > I had to laugh when I read this - it seems to say something like: "You're > to stupid, if you want to mess around with your computer, download some > software, but keep your fingers off the BIOS! ;-) I don't think I've seen a website from which I could download firmware - whether it was a PC BIOS or some other bit of hardwares operating software - that didn't say something along those lines. I'd say it's good advice for most users: installing a new BIOS (or whatever) may well break something that is currently working. Why risk that unless there's a good chance it'll fix something that *isn't* currently working? More importantly - at least as far as the vendor is concerned - it probably causes a noticable drop in their support calls. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 12 20:18:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE5137B416 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 20:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 1C9E414C58; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 05:18:44 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FIC on updating BIOS ;-) References: <20020113001000.A92296@tisys.org> <15424.53757.481922.381948@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 13 Jan 2002 05:18:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <15424.53757.481922.381948@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > I'd say it's good advice for most users: installing a new BIOS (or > whatever) may well break something that is currently working. More importantly, a botched BIOS upgrade will render your motherboard unusable for any purpose, including that of flashing the BIOS back to a known-good version. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message