From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 0: 0:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5841A37B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A3ACF31008E; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:00:44 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:00:15 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <200201260934538.SM01304@there> <3C53470C.8CEF3040@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C53470C.8CEF3040@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <20020127000039.SM01304@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 26 January 2002 04:17 pm, Terry Lambert banged out on the key= s: > chip wrote: > > There is another possibility not yet mentioned - vmware. I have set u= p > > systems at work that run (spec'd by the developers) redhat linux and > > vmware with win2000 in the vm. My experience was that this works real > > well. Both OS's have full network access to each other and the 'outsi= de' > > world. This also saves the extra work of setting up a dual-boot syste= m. > > Granted, sometimes setting up vmware can be just as much work. Soon a= s I > > get a larger hard drive I'm going to do that on my workstation, FBSD = with > > W2K in the vm. > > The problem with dual booting is not the dual boot, > according to anyone in the discussion so far (except > for Anthony). > > The problem is with the repartitioning of the disk for > the installation. The VMWare approach has this same > problem, with getting to the point where you can even > contemplate the install. > > -- Terry I'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence. When I set up vmware on = the=20 linux box to run win2k I didn't have to do anything with any partition, j= ust=20 had to give it some disk space, any contiguous disk space. I haven't trie= d it=20 yet on my fbsd boxes at home because they don't have enough computing pow= er=20 to handle it, but my guess is it will be the same procedure. --=20 Chip W. www.wiegand.org <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 0:45:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465FA37B416 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 00:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0R8jYr15215; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:45:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <038b01c1a70e$fcb0f200$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> òÿÿÿ <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 09:45:34 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > Oh, you mean anecdotally ... No, I mean empirically, as I have previously explained and explicitly stated. > ... as in based on or consisting of > reports or observations of usually > unscientific observers. I already have the dictionary from which you lifted this definition, so you need not repeat it here. > Unless you have some empirical evidence you > wish to present? My own experience supports my assertions. > As in capable of being verified or disproved > by observation or experiment? No. Not all empirical evidence is verifiable. > Guess that's "no". No, I'm trying to point out that what you intend by "backing up" is unclear in this context. Your insistence upon it induced me to explicitly define empirical. > An alternate viewpoint derived from an investment in > the status quo? Simply an alternate viewpoint. I don't recall deriving it from anything. > Your claimed ability to install a production > system using the CDROM installer says noting > about where the majority of FreeBSD production > system come from. Neither do any of your posts to this list. I don't think that the feasibility of installing a production server from a CD-ROM is really in doubt. I'm surprised that anyone would question it. > I can personally vouch for over 20,000 of > them that came from disk duplication, rather > than CDROM installs. In other words, you are supporting your assertions with your own experience? Hmm. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 1:43:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8638237B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365B9BCDF; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18670; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:43:21 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0R9kRg07062; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 01:46:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Jan 2002 01:46:27 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 91 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > I'd be good to have this documented after some more experts express a > > common opinion on whether absolute or relative size of the reserve > > matters and how they'd choose the numbers. I'd hope they'd speak of > > partition size instead of disk size. And whether the value should > > have any dependence on tunefs's -o value. > > > > I suspect that the answer is "absolute", except for the effect big > > partitions have on the willingness of the SA to reduce risks by > > increasing their safety margins, at the cost of cheap disk space. > > It's partition size, but X*(N + M) = (X*N) + (X*M). > > Multiplication is commutative and associative. 8-). > So yes: it's absolute. That's odd. Your example there shows relative and I interpret the rest of your comments about hashing to imply that it's relative. If it's absolute, you'd have (N + M - A) != (N - A) + (M - A), and discussing disk size (N+M) would be somewhat misleading. (Maybe my use of absolute and relative wasn't clear. Absolute meant the reserve space for good defraging (or SA reserve) wasn't (much) dependant on partition size, while relative meant the reserve space needs was a set fraction of the partition size.) > Basically, at 85% in a perfect hash, there is 0% > fragmentation, at 90% that goes up to 7%. > > It's really very easy to understand: you are using a > statistical function to select a non-colliding subset > of a set, and you want to know at what point you end > up with diminishing returns, and collisions occur. Trust me. It's not easy to understand from this thread so far, and I don't expect it to be; I can go to the FFS treatise for understanding. I feel bad even seeing you spend your time trying to explain reasons. But I am asking for statements of how the algorithm behaves which would be helpful in knowing whether to twist the -m knob or how far. > If you have a friend who is a statistician, you should > ask them to explain "The Birthday Paradox" to you. I've read about it several times, always forgetting the math, but I remember you need only about 50 people for a 0.5 match probability. > You'd probably benefit from reading the original FFS paper. No doubt. Though I trust you that the performance of the algorithm is not a function of the partition size, but of the reserve relative to that size (and the space filled relative to that size), I'll need to read more to believe that I care as much about poor performance with relatively full big disk than with a small one. For example, I might accept slow performance to get an extra 5 GB when I wouldn't for 50 MB. > > The tunefs(8) man page leaves me wondering, when it says > > > > This value can be set to zero, however up to a factor of three in > > throughput will be lost over the performance obtained at a 10% > > threshold. > > > > whether that's true even when the filesystem is far from full or only > > when comparing, say, two fileystems with 0-10% free space (and, I > > suspect, only a factor of three near 0%). > > You know, you could worry about something else... like > the fact that a formatted disk has less capacity than an > unformatted one. I probably would, if there was a poorly-documented knob for that too. But when I read silly recommendations to set the swap/RAM knob to 2, regardless of the size of RAM or applications, I find it easy to question other recommendations for which the justification is only deep in the source or developer archives or even hairy treatises or seemingly wrong (as the above tunefs(8) quote). Actually, my worry was not really in how something worked or could be optimized as much as it was a response to what I find to be a poorly documented config setting. If it just said "leave this to experts" I probably wouldn't have brought it up. But when I read the tunefs quote above, I see an implication that I'm quite sure is absolutely wrong: It implies that the throughput will always be poor, regardless of how full the disk is. That is misleading and tends to make people twist the knob less far than they would if the statement expressed the truth better. Maybe it only needs to change "throughput" to "worst-case throughput" or "near-full throughput". It's also quite common-sensical to think that the reserve wouldn't be as necessary for bigs disks as it was for small ones. Better documentation would head off many FAQs on this issue. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 2:41:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2214137B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UmkJ-0001lI-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:41:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53D942.D18B45A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:41:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <200201260934538.SM01304@there> <4.3.2.7.2.20020127021806.01dfe2a8@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > VMware doesn't suffer from this problem when you're using its virtual > disks, which look like fixed disks to the guest OS but are really just > large files on the host filesystem. The problem is even easier if you're > running the Windows version of VMware, in which case you don't need to > modify your default NTFS partition at all. It looks like the 3.0 Workstation version of VMWare runs on Windows XP. Looks like it costs $300. Partition Magic with Boot Magic costs $70. Overwriting Windows XP costs $120 (the cost of Windows XP). It looks to me like the cheapest option is repartitioning. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 2:44:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6841537B404 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Umnb-00039f-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:44:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53DA0F.299791E0@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:44:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> <20020126005722.A77604@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020127022140.01e3ec10@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > Yeah, one of the lessons I learned the hard way since I've started > multi-booting is that I should not bother configuring any OS/applications > until I'm sure that all the OSes in question will boot properly. This somewhat goes against the natuarl order of things, which I think is: 1) Buy a computer with an OS preinstalled 2) Use it for weeks or months 3) Hear about another OS 4) "Test Drive" the other OS 5) Make an erase/keep decision about the new OS 5a) If keep, make an erase/keep decision about the preinstalled OS -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 2:55: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A038F37B404 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Umxh-0007Ad-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:55:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53DC80.29C2DCAA@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:54:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chip Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <200201260934538.SM01304@there> <3C53470C.8CEF3040@mindspring.com> <20020127000039.SM01304@there> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip wrote: > > The problem is with the repartitioning of the disk for > > the installation. The VMWare approach has this same > > problem, with getting to the point where you can even > > contemplate the install. > > I'm not sure what you mean in the last sentence. When I set up vmware on the > linux box to run win2k I didn't have to do anything with any partition, just > had to give it some disk space, any contiguous disk space. I haven't tried it > yet on my fbsd boxes at home because they don't have enough computing power > to handle it, but my guess is it will be the same procedure. We were talking about FreeBSD in the case of a Windows XP box with XP preinstalled, and perhaps some user data on the XP FS that makes system recovery CDROMs a bad idea in most cases, until someone works out the writing NTFS problem sufficiently from DR-DOS or other bootable recovery OSs that can boot from a CDROM. While you're technically right, since the 3.0 version can support Windows XP as a host OS, VMWare on Windows XP to run FreeBSD costs you $300. So it's _a_ solution, but it's certainly not the _cheapest_ one, and since we are talking about someone who doesn't want to drop $300 on the cheapest el-cheapo machine at Fry's (if they even have a Fry's or Fry's-alike in their area at all)... -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 3: 9:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B94737B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UnBn-0000oV-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:09:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53DFEB.C9F6E25A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:09:31 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> òÿÿÿ <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> <038b01c1a70e$fcb0f200$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Terry writes: > > Oh, you mean anecdotally ... > > No, I mean empirically, as I have previously explained and explicitly > stated. > > > ... as in based on or consisting of > > reports or observations of usually > > unscientific observers. > > I already have the dictionary from which you lifted this definition, so you > need not repeat it here. That's the definition of "anecdotally". It's repeated here for people who, unlike you, don't own Merriam Webster's dictionary, and have been taken in by your attempt to redefine the word "empirically". If you honestly mean "empirically", then you won't mind giving everyone sufficient information so as to be able to duplicate your observations. > > Unless you have some empirical evidence you > > wish to present? > > My own experience supports my assertions. Not empirically, it doesn't, unless you will provide sufficient information for anyone who wants to be able to duplicate those observations independently. > > As in capable of being verified or disproved > > by observation or experiment? > > No. Not all empirical evidence is verifiable. Wrong. Empirical: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment. All empirical evidence is, by definition, verifiable. > > Guess that's "no". > > No, I'm trying to point out that what you intend by "backing up" is unclear > in this context. Your insistence upon it induced me to explicitly define > empirical. Incorrectly, I might add. > > Your claimed ability to install a production > > system using the CDROM installer says noting > > about where the majority of FreeBSD production > > system come from. > > Neither do any of your posts to this list. Please contact: Coyote Point Systems Array Networks (formerly ClickArray) IBM (via Whistle acquisition) iMimic Tera Intel (inBusiness division) and ask them if they install their production servers based on FreeBSD using the FreeBSD CDROM. > I don't think that the feasibility of installing a production server from a > CD-ROM is really in doubt. I'm surprised that anyone would question it. I never said it wasn't feasable for mom-and-pop, small potatoes operations. I have pointed out (now that you have changed from "the FreeBSD CDROM distribution", which is what we were all talking about to "a CDROM") that the FreeBSD CDROM build process itself does not lend itself to doing this, without patches (patches I posted between March and October of 2001 to the FreeBSD lists, if your memory goes back that far). > > I can personally vouch for over 20,000 of > > them that came from disk duplication, rather > > than CDROM installs. > > In other words, you are supporting your assertions with your own experience? > Hmm. Feel free to verify my assertions by contacting the companies noted above, all of whom ship FreeBSD based products, the "golden master" for which *sure as hell* is not the CDROM new users can download off the net. K PLZ? THX. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 3:35:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8849237B41C for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0RBZFr15525; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:35:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <040601c1a726$b1195db0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> òÿÿÿ <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> <038b01c1a70e$fcb0f200$0a00000a@atkielski.com> ¿Àå¿¿ ±( Èð `ç¿¿ ³ð 0À øå¿¿ æ¿¿Ìæ¿¿¾(tæ¿¿¿ð8ç¿¿u(¨® (àÑ (Dç¿¿á ( Ò ( Ó aÒ( ç¿¿ àÑ (- üæ¿¿6Ò(¨® (àÑ ( <3C53DFEB.C9F6E25A@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:35:15 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > That's the definition of "anecdotally". I know. > It's repeated here for people who, unlike > you, don't own Merriam Webster's dictionary, > and have been taken in by your attempt to > redefine the word "empirically". How does defining a completely different word prove anything about my use of the word "empirically"? I used empirically from the beginning, and you attempted to equate it with anecdotally, even though the two words are quite different. If anything, providing a definition for the latter term only emphasizes this fact. > If you honestly mean "empirically", then > you won't mind giving everyone sufficient > information so as to be able to duplicate > your observations. Since empirical knowledge is based on experience (or observations, but experience is what I intended in my use of the word), they'd have to duplicate my experience, and obviously that is not possible. > > My own experience supports my assertions. > > Not empirically, it doesn't ... Empirically means "based on experience." > Wrong. See above. > Empirical: capable of being verified or disproved by > observation or experiment. Why do you cite only the third definition on page 379, instead of the first two? 1: originating in or based on observation or EXPERIENCE ... 2: relying on EXPERIENCE or observation ALONE often without due regard for system and theory ... (C) 1993 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. [Emphasis added] > All empirical evidence is, by definition, verifiable. Nothing in the definition you lifted from the dictionary says anything about verification. Neither do the parts of the definition that you left out. I get the overwhelming impression that you were not exactly sure what "empirical" meant before you encountered in in my post, because (1) you equated it with anecdotally, which was incorrect; then (2) you looked it up to find out what it really meant; then (3) you tried to quote a part of the definition that you thought might enable you to salvage your mistaken first impression of its meaning, without success. I can always tell when someone has had to look up a word. > Please contact: No. You may post your evidence here, if you wish, but I'm not going to contact anyone or look anything up for you. > Feel free to verify my assertions by contacting the > companies noted above, all of whom ship FreeBSD based > products, the "golden master" for which *sure as hell* > is not the CDROM new users can download off the net. No. Present your evidence here, or we shall do without. I will not do your work for you. I really don't understand why this is all such an issue for you, but then again, the workings of the standard angry young male's mind have always been somewhat of a mystery to me. In any case, it's always fun to press people to objectively justify purely subjective opinions and see how long it takes them to admit that they really _are_ subjective opinions, and not objectively verifiable realities. Angry young males never admit it, of course--they just fight and fight and fight, because fighting is what really interests them. My opinion is that dual-boot configurations are not worth the effort they require to set up. Your opinion differs from mine. Neither of us can prove our opinions to be objectively valid and correct. Therefore the Herculean effort you are expending to give the impression that you can provide such proof is wasted. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 4: 5:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47D8837B416 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:05:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Uo3p-00030B-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:05:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:05:21 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > That's odd. Your example there shows relative and I interpret the rest > of your comments about hashing to imply that it's relative. I meant "relative to the size". It's an absolute scaling factor (the percentage of the disk that should be used for the free reserve is invariant). > (Maybe my use of absolute and relative wasn't clear. Absolute meant > the reserve space for good defraging (or SA reserve) wasn't (much) > dependant on partition size, while relative meant the reserve space > needs was a set fraction of the partition size.) Yep. See above. > Trust me. It's not easy to understand from this thread so far, and I > don't expect it to be; I can go to the FFS treatise for understanding. > I feel bad even seeing you spend your time trying to explain reasons. Nonsense. If I can't explain reasons, then they are unsupportable (by me, at least ;^)). > But I am asking for statements of how the algorithm behaves which > would be helpful in knowing whether to twist the -m knob or how far. The algorithm operates by hashing for selection of where to write next. If it collides, it has to do collision handling, and that inflates the cost considerably. The free reserve is intended to keep the disk empty enough to prevent hash collisions from occurring. At 85% fill, this is a probability of 1:1.040 of getting an empty area (for a perfect hash). You really need to read the FFS paper and the Knuth book, if you want to understand the math that makes it work, since I am a poor math teacher (IMO 8-)). I do much better in person, on a whiteboard, and waving my hands. The tweaks are typically to reduce the free reserve, and to reduce the threshold below which optimization will be for space filling, rather than for speed (the 5% number below which performance becomes a factor of 3 slower is the space filling optimization threshold). Dropping the free reserve decreases the required free space, and when the disk fills to the point where it is more than 85% full, then every fractional percent more full it gets after that increases the probability of collision on attempt to allocate free space via hashing. When you get a collision, you get two things: (1) the speed decreases, both writing and reading, since you are taking longer to find places to write, and the writing and reading occur in scattered chunks, instead of clusters of the FS block size, and (2) the fragmentation of the disk increases for files created or extended during the low free reserve period. It's because of the hashing that the FFS does not suffer from fragmentation, and therefore, there is no need for a "defragger"; many people don't understand this, and ask were they can get a defragger anyway. > > If you have a friend who is a statistician, you should > > ask them to explain "The Birthday Paradox" to you. > > I've read about it several times, always forgetting the math, but I > remember you need only about 50 people for a 0.5 match probability. 23. For 50 people, the probability is 96.5%. Basically, people's birthdays are hashed using modulus 365, and you are checking for hash collisions after hashing everyone into one of 365 buckets based on their birthday. There's a really nice statistical explanation at: http://www.howstuffworks.com/question261.htm 8-). 365 is a really bad number for a hash, since it not prime at all. It's far from a "perfect hash"/"Fibbonacci hash". > > You'd probably benefit from reading the original FFS paper. > > No doubt. Though I trust you that the performance of the algorithm > is not a function of the partition size, but of the reserve relative > to that size (and the space filled relative to that size), I'll need > to read more to believe that I care as much about poor performance with > relatively full big disk than with a small one. For example, I might > accept slow performance to get an extra 5 GB when I wouldn't for 50 MB. Relative to the size of your disk, people complain about very large disks for even a very small free reserve percentage, mostly because they grew up in an era when "that was a lot of space!". The reality is that the algorithm needs a certain percentage of the space to work correctly, and if you take that away, then it doesn't work correctly. If you want to use a different algorithm, fine. But so far, the only competing one that seems to be worth anything is to extent or log structure your FS, and then spend CPU cycles and some percentage of your disk access cycles, on a "cleaner" process, that follows around and manually defragments the disk behind users using it. This process is expensive enough that for disks that are under where the free reserve would be, you are paying a performance penalty for any disk with more data than a single "cleaner" relocation block. In other words, there's a trade off. If you assume your disks are full, or you know your limiting factor is going to be I/O, and never CPU, then you might be better off using a different approach. For general purpose use, though, FFS has served us well for a couple of decades now. 8-). > > You know, you could worry about something else... like > > the fact that a formatted disk has less capacity than an > > unformatted one. > > I probably would, if there was a poorly-documented knob for that too. 8-). > But when I read silly recommendations to set the swap/RAM knob to 2, > regardless of the size of RAM or applications, I find it easy to > question other recommendations for which the justification is only deep > in the source or developer archives or even hairy treatises or seemingly > wrong (as the above tunefs(8) quote). It used to be that the swap/RAM knob was 1:1. It became 2:1 by default when we started doing memory overcommit in UNIX, and it really hasn't been reexamined much since then. Really, it'd probably be a good idea to find a reasonable way to make swap take up disk space until you ran out, on the theory that the limiting factor will be the limiting factor, so if it's swap space, or it's disk space, it doesn't matter, it's preferrable to exceed administrative limits (at least to the limits of the available hardware), to not doing the job you intended the hardeware to do. NeXTStep did this, and Windows does this currently (that's the real reason for the API to get the physical block list for a file, which we discussed as a way of putting a FreeBSD disk into an NTFS file, in the "partitioning" thread. The problem with doing "swap files" is that accessing swap through an FS adds another level of indirection (that's what the Windows direct sector list access API is taking out, but it can't make it as fast as a raw swap partition, because it can't guaranteed physical adjacency of logically adjacent file blocks ...unless the disk isn't very full). > Actually, my worry was not really in how something worked or could be > optimized as much as it was a response to what I find to be a poorly > documented config setting. If it just said "leave this to experts" I > probably wouldn't have brought it up. But when I read the tunefs quote > above, I see an implication that I'm quite sure is absolutely wrong: It > implies that the throughput will always be poor, regardless of how full > the disk is. That is misleading and tends to make people twist the knob > less far than they would if the statement expressed the truth better. > Maybe it only needs to change "throughput" to "worst-case throughput" or > "near-full throughput". It's also quite common-sensical to think that > the reserve wouldn't be as necessary for bigs disks as it was for small > ones. Better documentation would head off many FAQs on this issue. This issue has been discussed many times before. It's in the literature, and it's in the FreeBSD list archives dozens of times, at least. 8-). To address your suggestions: this would imply that the you could get non-worst-case performance on a full disk near a very small free reserve selected administratively. The real answer is that the more data on the disk above the optimal free reserve for the algorithm used for block selection, the worse the performance will be, and "worst case" is defined as "the last write before hitting the free reserve limit". So disk performance degrades steadily, the fuller it gets over the optimal free reserve (which is ~15%, much higher than the free reserve kept on most disks). The other misleading thing is that, once written fragged, the file will remain fragged, even if you drop the system back down below the "space optimization" limit, or even down below the "free reserve" limit. If that happens to an important file, then you are screwed, since there's no defragger, since the system was never designed to be run with the disk full over the free reserve. Thus it's a good idea to keep a large free reserve, so that a run-away user process can't screw up the on disk access speed for important files for another, more important process. BTW: "root" is immune to the free reserve limit; that's why you can sometimes see disks that are "110% full": it's a calcualtion based on the amount used, divided into the available space _under the reserve_. BTWBTW: If you screw up an important file this way, you can fix it by backing it up, deleting it, and restoring it, once the disk has dropped down to the optimal free reserve. This is known as "the poor man's defragger". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 4:14:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8439037B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16UoCI-0006PH-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:14:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3C53EF0D.5CF59A2F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:14:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anthony Atkielski Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> òÿÿÿ <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> <038b01c1a70e$fcb0f200$0a00000a@atkielski.com> ¿Àå¿¿ ±( Èð `ç¿¿ ³ð 0À øå¿¿ æ¿¿Ìæ¿¿¾(tæ¿¿¿ð8ç¿¿u(¨® (àÑ (Dç¿¿á ( Ò ( Ó aÒ( ç¿¿ àÑ (- üæ¿¿6Ò(¨® (àÑ ( <3C53DFEB.C9F6E25A@mindspring.com> <040601c1a726$b1195db0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Atkielski wrote: *PLONK*. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 4:36:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E968437B41D for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 04:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g0RCafr15638; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:36:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <047d01c1a72f$4603a4f0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <001b01c1a635$636a4170$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C5270E4.BF21F79B@mindspring.com> <011b01c1a659$fb98a670$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C52AB34.B8896C8D@mindspring.com> <018c01c1a675$f3dcc1c0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3C534259.A20067B2@mindspring.com> <02ba01c1a6ec$62983740$0a00000a@atkielski.com> òÿÿÿ <3C539BC5.C1543E5D@mindspring.com> <038b01c1a70e$fcb0f200$0a00000a@atkielski.com> ¿Àå¿¿ ±( Èð `ç¿¿ ³ð 0À øå¿¿ æ¿¿Ìæ¿¿¾(tæ¿¿¿ð8ç¿¿u(¨® (àÑ (Dç¿¿á ( Ò ( Ó aÒ( ç¿¿ àÑ (- üæ¿¿6Ò(¨® (àÑ ( <3C53DFEB.C9F6E25A@mindspring.com> <040601c1a726$b1195db0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> t (    ë< lü¿¿ÿ¿ðì¿¿ <3C53EF0D.5CF59A2F@mindsprin! g.com> Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:36:41 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry writes: > *PLONK*. Yeah, I've seen that before, too. But people who really put me in their killfile don't feel compelled to announce it, and people who announce it often don't actually do it, or don't do it for very long. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 5:23:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A083237B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0QGlF515830; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:47:15 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C526D0F.A27A59E7@mindspring.com> References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C526D0F.A27A59E7@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:41:09 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: Brad Knowles , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:47 AM -0800 2002/01/26, Terry Lambert wrote: > Donald Knuth, "Seminumerical Algorithms: Sorting and Searching". I am probably one of the few people on this list who has actually used this book, and I still have my copy from fifteen years ago somewhere around the house. I even recall trying to grok the MIX assembly code. If you can provide an exact page reference, I would appreciate it. > 85% of load is the point at which a perfect hash starts getting > collisions from random data with a probabiliy of higher than 1.005. I believe that this assumes that the hash buckets are a consistent size relative to the overall capacity. However, as the overall capacity grows by orders of magnitude, I believe that this generalization fails to deal with the relative logarithmic size of the hash buckets. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 6: 7: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E9437B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 06:06:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0RE6hi18396; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:06:43 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C5345A0.68D0CE99@mindspring.com> References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C5345A0.68D0CE99@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:50:53 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller(was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:11 PM -0800 2002/01/26, Terry Lambert wrote: > 85% hash fill is 85% hash fill. > > If you have an arbitrary sized hash table, then why do you > somehow think the probability of a hash collision goes down > as the size of the hash table goes up, if the relative load > on the hash table increases until it is the same percentage > of the total hash table size? But this isn't my understanding of how the filesystem works. If hash tables are used, they are only used locally, and elsewhere we use a digraph. If this weren't the case, then we would have never, ever had problems with directory size and storing many millions of files in a single directory. Yes, I realize that dirprefs and dirhash change this scenario somewhat with more modern versions of FreeBSD, but I still don't believe that they change the filesystem/inode behaviour to use a global "perfect hash". > Please search for "perfect hash" in the NEC "Cite Seer" CS > reference database. This is the first I've heard of this database. Can you provide an URL? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 11:19: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E1637B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:19:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-195.wobline.de [212.68.69.206]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0RJIra03406 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:18:53 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0RJJBX31976 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:19:13 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0RJHh400282 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:17:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:15:12 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Western Digital HDs Message-ID: <20020127201512.A263@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD howie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 8:11PM up 1:35, 1 user, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, well, does anyone have some experience with Western Digital's current drives, specifically the 80 GB WD800BB? Mine just quitted service for good with interesting clicks and then a whole lot of unrepairable errors in WD's diagnostic software. I'm currently in the process of obtaining an RMA and will send the drive back tomorrow, but I have read some horrible reports about this drive in WD's forum. There was a guy who had the WD800BB. It stopped working after three months, he got it replaced, the replacement died within a week, and so did the second replacement. He then went and bough a different drive. Now, I realize that other manufacturers (like IBM) may have similar problems, but still, does anyone have any experiences with the WD800BB or some other current WD drive? Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 13:53:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A4337B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:53:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A70295A00E6; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:54:10 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: 4.5 release date? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:53:43 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201271354819.SM01400@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I see 4.5 is at rc3 now, it the site says there will be one more rc. Any = idea=20 when the final release will be available for download in iso? For some re= ason=20 I thought it would have been around the 20 of this month. I must've read=20 something wrong somewhere. --=20 Chip W www.wiegand.org <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 13:55:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9081B37B416 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from there [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id A7593C09008C; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:55:37 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: chip To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:55:06 -0800 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020127021806.01dfe2a8@threespace.com> <3C53D942.D18B45A@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3C53D942.D18B45A@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200201271355758.SM01400@there> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday 27 January 2002 02:41 am, Terry Lambert banged out on the keys: > It looks like the 3.0 Workstation version of VMWare runs on > Windows XP. > Looks like it costs $300. > Partition Magic with Boot Magic costs $70. > Overwriting Windows XP costs $120 (the cost of Windows XP). > It looks to me like the cheapest option is repartitioning. > -- Terry I see what you were getting at now, and it appears vmware's free version = is=20 good for only 30 days, what a drag. --=20 Chip W www.wiegand.org <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> Windows 95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patc= h to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 14:38: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B2837B420 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25202; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:37:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127153209.026d95a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:37:03 -0700 To: Nils Holland , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs In-Reply-To: <20020127201512.A263@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:15 PM 1/27/2002, Nils Holland wrote: >Hi folks, > >well, does anyone have some experience with Western Digital's current >drives, specifically the 80 GB WD800BB? Mine just quitted service for good >with interesting clicks and then a whole lot of unrepairable errors in WD's >diagnostic software. WD hard drives are a very mixed bag. I have a server with one of their 3GB units that has worked perfectly for more than 5 years without one glitch. I've heard horror stories about other models, though. Sam's Club had a $100 rebate on their 100GB/Ultra100 model up until the new year, bringing the net price down to $129, so I installed one. It's worked fine so far, but it's too early even to see if it'll make it past the infant mortality period. When 4.5 is done I'll load it onto the machine and use the WD drive as a big Web cache, so the drive is sure to get plenty of exercise. We'll see how it holds up. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 15:21:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF42B37B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0437.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.182] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Uybl-00023N-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:21:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3C548B60.8FA53D8C@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:21:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller(was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C526D0F.A27A59E7@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > Donald Knuth, "Seminumerical Algorithms: Sorting and Searching". > > I am probably one of the few people on this list who has > actually used this book, and I still have my copy from fifteen years > ago somewhere around the house. I even recall trying to grok the MIX > assembly code. If you can provide an exact page reference, I would > appreciate it. Searching. Section 6.4. > > 85% of load is the point at which a perfect hash starts getting > > collisions from random data with a probabiliy of higher than 1.005. > > I believe that this assumes that the hash buckets are a > consistent size relative to the overall capacity. However, as the > overall capacity grows by orders of magnitude, I believe that this > generalization fails to deal with the relative logarithmic size of > the hash buckets. You are correct about the assumption. The "hashing" is into the cylinder groups, which are a fixed capacity, which doesn't change. If the selection of cylinder group were done that way, too, then you'd have a point, but it's not. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 15:36:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F90037B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0437.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.182] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Uyqf-00014v-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:36:33 -0800 Message-ID: <3C548EFB.DAEBEFBD@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:36:27 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSDIntaller(was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C5345A0.68D0CE99@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > 85% hash fill is 85% hash fill. > > > > If you have an arbitrary sized hash table, then why do you > > somehow think the probability of a hash collision goes down > > as the size of the hash table goes up, if the relative load > > on the hash table increases until it is the same percentage > > of the total hash table size? > > But this isn't my understanding of how the filesystem works. > If hash tables are used, they are only used locally, and elsewhere we > use a digraph. If this weren't the case, then we would have never, > ever had problems with directory size and storing many millions of > files in a single directory. The excerpt is an attempt to explain why it isn't just "common sense" that the amount of free reserve would not be proportional to the carrying capacity, rather than some small, fixed amount. It's not really directly applicable, unless you increase cylinder group size. > Yes, I realize that dirprefs and dirhash change this scenario > somewhat with more modern versions of FreeBSD, but I still don't > believe that they change the filesystem/inode behaviour to use a > global "perfect hash". You are correct. I think people should just read the papers. > > Please search for "perfect hash" in the NEC "Cite Seer" CS > > reference database. > > This is the first I've heard of this database. Can you provide an URL? Really?!? It's one of the most important CS resources on the web, IMO; the NCSTRL database is a poor second (but also important). Here's the top level URL: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/ Here's the FFS reference, for example: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/mckusick84fast.html -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 15:59:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (pns.wobline.de [212.68.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA9737B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from colt.ncptiddische.net (ppp-133.wobline.de [212.68.69.141]) by mcqueen.wolfsburg.de (8.11.3/8.11.3/tw-20010821) with ESMTP id g0RNx8a24439; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:59:09 +0100 Received: from tisys.org (howie.ncptiddische.net [192.168.0.3]) by colt.ncptiddische.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0RNxTX33034; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:59:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils@tisys.org) Received: (from nils@localhost) by tisys.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0RNxF802131; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:59:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nils) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 00:58:39 +0100 From: Nils Holland To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs Message-ID: <20020128005839.A2063@tisys.org> Mail-Followup-To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20020127201512.A263@tisys.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020127153209.026d95a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127153209.026d95a0@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:37:03PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD howie.ncptiddische.net 4.5-RC FreeBSD 4.5-RC X-Machine-Uptime: 12:46AM up 1:15, 1 user, load averages: 0.52, 0.59, 0.57 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:37:03PM -0700, Brett Glass stood up and spoke: > > WD hard drives are a very mixed bag. I have a server with one of their > 3GB units that has worked perfectly for more than 5 years without one > glitch. I've heard horror stories about other models, though. Yes, I've been having a 2.5 GB drive since 1997. It's been running fine in a 24/7 server until last December. It's still working, but has been replaced by a bigger drive in the mean time. I've also 13 GB, 45 GB and 60 GB WD drives in use. The first two of these have worked fine for one or two years, respecively. The 60 GB thing is relatively new and so a comment is not yet possible. (As a side note, about *all* WD drives I have been using in many different machines over the years have always tended to click every now and then during use, which would interrupt the flow of data if it was in process at the time of the click. Yet, none of these drives did in the end visibly fail or report any errors in WD's diag utility). Taking the above into account, the failure of my 80 GB drive may just be a normal failure - every company makes a certain ammount of products that will eventually fail. However, the forum on the Western Digital site is really interesting. When one reads the messages in there, one will get the impression that WD's drives are about the worst ones out there and will all fail very soon. However, I guess that the forum cannot be seen as a definite reason for such a conclusion, simply because (the minority) of dissatisfied customers are more likely to post messages into a forum than (the majority) of satisfied customers are. Well, I sure hope I'll get my drive replaced soon and that the replacement will last. If I'm not totally wrong, German law says that WD (or any company for that matter) does have three chances to correct defects on their products that occured during the warranty period. If they fail to do that, the customer shall get part of all of the price he paid back, depending on how useful the "remainder" of the defective product is (you'd probably get only some money back it it were a cosmetical problem, but if it comes to hard drives, I'd sure hope that all money would be refunded. I wouldn't think it'd be valid to claim for the manufacturer that they only have to refund a part of the price, since I can use the first 20 GB out of a 80 GB drive ;-) Greetings Nils -- Nils Holland Ti Systems - FreeBSD in Tiddische, Germany http://www.tisys.org * nils@tisys.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 16:23: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D41637B442 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:22:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a145.otenet.gr [212.205.215.145]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g0S0MoK29031; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:22:50 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0S0MnL46136; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:22:49 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:22:48 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Nils Holland Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs Message-ID: <20020128002248.GA46069@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020127201512.A263@tisys.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020127201512.A263@tisys.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-01-27 20:15:12, Nils Holland wrote: > Hi folks, > > well, does anyone have some experience with Western Digital's current > drives, specifically the 80 GB WD800BB? Mine just quitted service for good > with interesting clicks and then a whole lot of unrepairable errors in WD's > diagnostic software. The WD's are a strange breed of drives. I've had disks fail in the first few weeks of them being bought, replacement disks fail too. Yet there are cases like the two 45 Gb atapi disks I now use on my workstation at home that work great for more than 1.5 year now, without EVER showing any problem at all. Go figure :-/ -- Giorgos Keramidas . . . . . . . . . keramida@{ceid.upatras.gr,freebsd.org} FreeBSD Documentation Project . . . http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ FreeBSD: The power to serve . . . . http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 16:32:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53DEB37B404 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0644ABD23; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20700; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:32:07 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0S0aR201255; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Jan 2002 16:36:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 96 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > > Trust me. It's not easy to understand from this thread so far, and I > > don't expect it to be; I can go to the FFS treatise for understanding. > > I feel bad even seeing you spend your time trying to explain reasons. > > Nonsense. If I can't explain reasons, then they are > unsupportable (by me, at least ;^)). But you probably can't, without rewriting much of the FFS treatise. People are willing to trust experts when they say a certain behavior is result of the chosen algorithm if there's a hint that the expert has considered the issue (as you have more than hinted). I thank you for trying to explain the reasons, but this just isn't the forum for it. I don't wan't to seem ungrateful, but I think you should know that much of your explaination is the sort of thing that is often referred to by the very term you used in a physical context, "hand waving" (maybe with flakes of "snow job" thrown in). It's better than nothing, but it's probably not worth the effort. Please don't take offense; I'm trying, as I did in my last message less bluntly (and unsuccessfully), to convince you to not waste your time on incomplete explanations of hard-to-explain reasons, especially when the only question is how the system behaves, not why it does so. (Thank you for having enough of the former in the last msg.) > Relative to the size of your disk, people complain about > very large disks for even a very small free reserve > percentage, mostly because they grew up in an era when > "that was a lot of space!". It's not just that. It's a hunch that defrag considerations should have as much to do with the size of files as it does with the amount of unused FS. If the former stay the same, it seems reasonable that the free space/reserve/whatever should remain the same for similar defrag performance, regardless of FS size. OK, the hunch is wrong. > The reality is that the algorithm needs a certain percentage > of the space to work correctly, and if you take that away, > then it doesn't work correctly. People reading about -m (or not even that) need a statement at least as blunt as that to prevent many from guessing that the talk of percentages isn't just another obsolete rule of thumb. > Really, it'd probably be a good idea to find a reasonable > way to make swap take up disk space until you ran out, on Interesting. > This issue has been discussed many times before. It's > in the literature, and it's in the FreeBSD list archives > dozens of times, at least. 8-). And if it was discussed near the -m option or an SA-level article was referred to, we wouldn't be doing it again. > To address your suggestions: this would imply that the you > could get non-worst-case performance on a full disk near a > very small free reserve selected administratively. OK, so it will take a few lines to explain better. > The real answer is that the more data on the disk above > the optimal free reserve for the algorithm used for block > selection, the worse the performance will be, and "worst > case" is defined as "the last write before hitting the > free reserve limit". So disk performance degrades > steadily, the fuller it gets over the optimal free reserve > (which is ~15%, much higher than the free reserve kept on > most disks). So it should say that performance degrades increasingly from negligible at 85% of the full FS to about 3 times slower near 100% full (plus increased permanent fragmentation of files). And that this is a result of the algorithms used and is independent of FS size. And this needs complication to mention the effects of the 5% switch and -o option. If I understand this correctly (a bad assumption), the peformance at 95% full is the same regardless of whether I reserve 10% or 1%. Since I don't care if the "end" of the FS is slow, the only reason for picking a large -m I see is to avoid permanently fragmented files. Wrong? Again, as it is, the documentation implies that performance with a small -m is always bad regardless of FS space remaining. > BTWBTW: If you screw up an important file this way, you > can fix it by backing it up, deleting it, and restoring > it, once the disk has dropped down to the optimal free > reserve. This is known as "the poor man's defragger". mv file file.bak; cp -p file.bak file; rm file.bak ## ? Thanks again. I've saved your ID in my PR-to-do list and if I ever get the easier ones done and write one for -m, I'll CC it to you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 16:52:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C61DB37B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.176.89]) by femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020128005202.JMIX25600.femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:52:02 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020127145508.01f16d40@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:58:36 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Why dual boot? In-Reply-To: <3C53DA0F.299791E0@mindspring.com> References: <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> <20020125143213.A70659@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C51E7ED.25FF34BA@mindspring.com> <20020125190153.A71616@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C5269A3.2FAB735B@mindspring.com> <20020126005722.A77604@HAL9000.wox.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020127022140.01e3ec10@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:44 AM 1/27/2002, you wrote: >This somewhat goes against the natuarl order of things, >which I think is: > >1) Buy a computer with an OS preinstalled >2) Use it for weeks or months >3) Hear about another OS >4) "Test Drive" the other OS >5) Make an erase/keep decision about the new OS >5a) If keep, make an erase/keep decision about the > preinstalled OS Yeah, you're probably right. I haven't done things that way for a while now. Having an existing system, I usually have mapped out which OSes I want on my system (both directly bootable and virtual) along with a sketch of how my hard drive space will be allocated. Then after backing up my personal data, I wipe everything out and start from scratch installing the OSes and the apps. So I'm probably not "typical" in this regard at all. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 16:59:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E88B37B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:59:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0437.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.182] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16V08R-0007gd-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 16:58:51 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > But you probably can't, without rewriting much of the FFS treatise. > People are willing to trust experts when they say a certain behavior is > result of the chosen algorithm if there's a hint that the expert has > considered the issue (as you have more than hinted). I thank you for > trying to explain the reasons, but this just isn't the forum for it. I > don't wan't to seem ungrateful, but I think you should know that much of > your explaination is the sort of thing that is often referred to by the > very term you used in a physical context, "hand waving" (maybe with > flakes of "snow job" thrown in). It's better than nothing, but it's > probably not worth the effort. Please don't take offense; I'm trying, > as I did in my last message less bluntly (and unsuccessfully), to > convince you to not waste your time on incomplete explanations of > hard-to-explain reasons, especially when the only question is how the > system behaves, not why it does so. (Thank you for having enough of the > former in the last msg.) Heh. How about this: "It will hurt if you change things without understanding them. Read and understand the FFS paper". ? > > Relative to the size of your disk, people complain about > > very large disks for even a very small free reserve > > percentage, mostly because they grew up in an era when > > "that was a lot of space!". > > It's not just that. It's a hunch that defrag considerations should > have as much to do with the size of files as it does with the amount > of unused FS. If the former stay the same, it seems reasonable that > the free space/reserve/whatever should remain the same for similar > defrag performance, regardless of FS size. OK, the hunch is wrong. If you don't exceed the optimal free reserve, the file system doesn't fragment. There is no such thing as significant fragmentation in an optimally tuned FFS. The fragmentation is avoided mathematically, not as a result of having a reserved "work area" in which there is active defragmentation occurring. Read the paper. ;^). > > The reality is that the algorithm needs a certain percentage > > of the space to work correctly, and if you take that away, > > then it doesn't work correctly. > > People reading about -m (or not even that) need a statement at > least as blunt as that to prevent many from guessing that the > talk of percentages isn't just another obsolete rule of thumb. Patches? 8-). > > Really, it'd probably be a good idea to find a reasonable > > way to make swap take up disk space until you ran out, on > > Interesting. > > > This issue has been discussed many times before. It's > > in the literature, and it's in the FreeBSD list archives > > dozens of times, at least. 8-). > > And if it was discussed near the -m option or an SA-level article was > referred to, we wouldn't be doing it again. Patches? 8-). > > To address your suggestions: this would imply that the you > > could get non-worst-case performance on a full disk near a > > very small free reserve selected administratively. > > OK, so it will take a few lines to explain better. > > > The real answer is that the more data on the disk above > > the optimal free reserve for the algorithm used for block > > selection, the worse the performance will be, and "worst > > case" is defined as "the last write before hitting the > > free reserve limit". So disk performance degrades > > steadily, the fuller it gets over the optimal free reserve > > (which is ~15%, much higher than the free reserve kept on > > most disks). > > So it should say that performance degrades increasingly from negligible > at 85% of the full FS to about 3 times slower near 100% full (plus > increased permanent fragmentation of files). And that this is a result > of the algorithms used and is independent of FS size. And this needs > complication to mention the effects of the 5% switch and -o option. Sure. Let's see if other people agree with that; it's a bit simplistic, in that you don't know whether the degradation is linear or exponential (exponential), and even saying that raises more questions from people who want to have knowledge given to them, instead of having to learn it (such people should have slots installed into their skulls before they come bother us, wince without a means of "giving" it to them like slotting a skills card into their brain, they are wasting their time. 8-)). > If I understand this correctly (a bad assumption), the peformance at > 95% full is the same regardless of whether I reserve 10% or 1%. Yes. > Since I don't care if the "end" of the FS is slow, the only reason > for picking a large -m I see is to avoid permanently fragmented > files. Wrong? Yes, if we accept the assumption that you don't care if the "end" of the FS is slow. Realize that this is all irrelevent, and what we are really talking about is not whether or not the disk space is able to be used, but rather "eye candy" for the system owener so that they can see a larger "available disk space" number. I think the confusion comes because anyone who naievely looks at the man pages, without reading them in depth, can come to the conclusion that the "free reserve" might be there for root use to recover a nearly completely full system, and so it's an administrative, rather than an algorithmic requirement. I believe that no matter *how well* you document things, you will still have problems with tourists who don't take time to read what you have written, in depth, to the point of understanding it. > Again, as it is, the documentation implies that performance with a > small -m is always bad regardless of FS space remaining. "The steady state of disks is full" -- Ken Thompson If you fill the disk up, and then empty it back out, for those files created during the "disk full" time, the performance *is* always bad. It's a matter of risk. Like mounting your FS async. The probability is pretty good that you will eventually fill up your disk, because humans are, by nature, pack rats. > > BTWBTW: If you screw up an important file this way, you > > can fix it by backing it up, deleting it, and restoring > > it, once the disk has dropped down to the optimal free > > reserve. This is known as "the poor man's defragger". > > mv file file.bak; cp -p file.bak file; rm file.bak ## ? No, actually. The "cp" program doesn't leave sparse files sparse. You can use the (GNU) tar program option for handling of sparse files (which it does by inference), or you can use "backup" and "restore". If no files are sparse, then the "cp" is OK. Funny story: I filled up an AIX disk by moving the documentation pages from one disk to another with "mv", which degrades to "cp" if it's moving across partitions on AIX. The problem is that there are a *lot* of sparse index files. Since the original move was successful, it took me a while to figure out where the space went. 8-). > Thanks again. I've saved your ID in my PR-to-do list and if I ever get > the easier ones done and write one for -m, I'll CC it to you. NP. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 17: 6:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 075C837B402 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0437.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.182] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16V0Ff-00015M-00; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:06:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3C54A40C.51FBB00A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:06:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > If I understand this correctly (a bad assumption), the peformance at > > 95% full is the same regardless of whether I reserve 10% or 1%. > > Yes. Let me add a caveat: *absolute percentage*. The "percentage full" that "df" reports is "percentage of the available disk space, not including the free reserve". The performance is based on "percentage of total real disk space". You have to post-process the "df" output, if you want to see this number, since it's not normally reported, because people are assumed to have made informed decisions about free reserve in the first place, so any amount of fill up to the "df" reported space is considered the be in the range of "acceptable to the user performance". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 17:14:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lion-around.at.yiff.net (lion-around.at.yiff.net [167.206.208.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B1037B417 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chris@localhost) by lion-around.at.yiff.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0S1EAR33445; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:14:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from chris@netmonger.net) X-Authentication-Warning: lion-around.at.yiff.net: chris set sender to chris@netmonger.net using -f Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:14:10 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: Brett Glass Cc: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020128011410.GA66454@netmonger.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020113053321.02aa2d50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020113053321.02aa2d50@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:35:11AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:09 PM 1/10/2002, Mark Murray wrote: > > >Do not presume to speak for all BSD users. > > I am not. Please do not do so yourself. I happily use GRUB to boot my FreeBSD system. I highly recommend that everyone use it. It is very nice and is licensed under the GPL, which is an awesome free software license that has inspired lots of great software. I think I'll see if I can provide any assistance to the GRUB people so they can make their boot loader even better for loading FreeBSD. Hopefully then all BSD users can enjoy it, except for Brett Glass. -- Christopher Masto CB461C61 8AFC E3A8 7CE5 9023 B35D C26A D849 1F6E CB46 1C61 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 19:15:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from HAL9000.wox.org (12-232-222-90.client.attbi.com [12.232.222.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3881337B400 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:15:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dschultz@localhost) by HAL9000.wox.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g0S3HCS00928; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dschultz) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:17:12 -0800 From: David Schultz To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Message-ID: <20020127191712.A825@HAL9000.wox.org> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:58:51PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thus spake Terry Lambert : > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > So it should say that performance degrades increasingly from negligible > > at 85% of the full FS to about 3 times slower near 100% full (plus > > increased permanent fragmentation of files). And that this is a result > > of the algorithms used and is independent of FS size. And this needs > > complication to mention the effects of the 5% switch and -o option. > > Sure. Let's see if other people agree with that; it's a bit > simplistic, in that you don't know whether the degradation > is linear or exponential (exponential), and even saying that > raises more questions from people who want to have knowledge > given to them, instead of having to learn it (such people > should have slots installed into their skulls before they > come bother us, wince without a means of "giving" it to them > like slotting a skills card into their brain, they are > wasting their time. 8-)). I didn't used to understand that comment in tunefs(8) until you mentioned the word `hash'. (Actually, it coincided nicely to my reaching the FFS chapter in the 4.4 BSD book.) All that's needed is a one- or two-sentence comment in the manpage explaining the cause and nature of the limitation. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 22:42:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DDF37B419 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0S6gW514149; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:42:32 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:23:04 +0100 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:36 PM -0800 2002/01/27, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > If I understand this correctly (a bad assumption), the peformance at > 95% full is the same regardless of whether I reserve 10% or 1%. Since > I don't care if the "end" of the FS is slow, the only reason for picking > a large -m I see is to avoid permanently fragmented files. Wrong? It really depends on whether you're talking about 95% of the real total disk space, or 95% of the "available" disk space. I assume you're talking about the real total disk space, but I think that this kind of qualification needs to be made every time you talk about a percentage (or a global statement needs to be made early that every percentage discussed is of one type or the other unless explicitly indicated otherwise). -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 22:42:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F4937B404 for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0S6gb514242; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:42:37 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:26:31 +0100 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen), Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:36 PM -0800 2002/01/27, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: >> This issue has been discussed many times before. It's >> in the literature, and it's in the FreeBSD list archives >> dozens of times, at least. 8-). > > And if it was discussed near the -m option or an SA-level article was > referred to, we wouldn't be doing it again. I feel an article coming on. Let me ruminate about this and see if anything takes hold. I'm not a writer, but as an admin with an occasional mission, I can put words on paper if I am sufficiently motivated. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 27 22:43:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7430837B41D for ; Sun, 27 Jan 2002 22:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.20] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0S6gR514080; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:42:28 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C548EFB.DAEBEFBD@mindspring.com> References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C5345A0.68D0CE99@mindspring.com> <3C548EFB.DAEBEFBD@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:19:28 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSDIntaller(was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mike Meyer , chip , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:36 PM -0800 2002/01/27, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > Please search for "perfect hash" in the NEC "Cite Seer" CS >> > reference database. >> >> This is the first I've heard of this database. Can you >> provide an URL? > > Really?!? > > It's one of the most important CS resources on the web, IMO; the > NCSTRL database is a poor second (but also important). Here's > the top level URL: Please keep in mind that while I have a BSCS, and since 1984 I have been on what has become the Internet, I haven't done any CS research since 1989 (when I graduated). This is long before the advent of the web, or even tools like gopher. > Here's the FFS reference, for example: > > http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/mckusick84fast.html Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 10:30:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B7437B402 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0A7918F4; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A958718F3 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:29:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:29:33 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs In-Reply-To: <20020128002248.GA46069@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The WD's are a strange breed of drives. I've had disks fail in the > first few weeks of them being bought, replacement disks fail too. Yet > there are cases like the two 45 Gb atapi disks I now use on my > workstation at home that work great for more than 1.5 year now, > without EVER showing any problem at all. Western Digital started going down hill when they released the 1.2 gig drives. Since then they've had nothing but problems. That's why I went to Fujitsu... but now that WD has bought them up, I'm willing to bet we'll see an increase in reliability. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 11: 6:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE5B37B50B for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:05:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from bmah.dyndns.org ([12.233.149.189]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020128190548.GRPI10199.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@bmah.dyndns.org> for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:05:48 +0000 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by bmah.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0SJ4W515835; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:04:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200201281904.g0SJ4W515835@bmah.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: chip Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.5 release date? In-reply-to: <200201271354819.SM01400@there> References: <200201271354819.SM01400@there> Comments: In-reply-to chip message dated "Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:53:43 -0800." From: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.ORG X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:04:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If memory serves me right, chip wrote: > I see 4.5 is at rc3 now, it the site says there will be one more rc. Any idea > when the final release will be available for download in iso? For some reason > I thought it would have been around the 20 of this month. I must've read > something wrong somewhere. "Real soon now". It's not up to me to give a definite time, but I'd say we're in the stage of tying up loose ends. (For what it's worth, I consider the release documentation to be done.) The original target release date was 20 January, but the schedule slipped for several reasons. See the archives of the -qa list for details. Bruce. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 11:35:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B40A37B400 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:35:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0SJZpK27517; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:35:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18831; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:35:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C55A7DD.149E4EE2@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:34:53 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've actually had nothing but problems with the Fujitsu's we have (SCSI). I don't like their drives at all.. I buy IBM's for IDE, and Seagates for SCSI. Eric Rick Hamell wrote: > > > The WD's are a strange breed of drives. I've had disks fail in the > > first few weeks of them being bought, replacement disks fail too. Yet > > there are cases like the two 45 Gb atapi disks I now use on my > > workstation at home that work great for more than 1.5 year now, > > without EVER showing any problem at all. > > Western Digital started going down hill when they released the 1.2 > gig drives. Since then they've had nothing but problems. That's why I went > to Fujitsu... but now that WD has bought them up, I'm willing to bet we'll > see an increase in reliability. :) > > Rick > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson anderson@centtech.com Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 13: 2:46 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A3037B41B; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06389; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:02:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0SL2KI70409; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:02:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:02:20 -0700 To: Chad David Cc: Nate Williams , "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness In-Reply-To: <20020128135603.G66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <1617.216.153.202.59.1012240332.squirrel@www1.27in.tv> <20020128192930.GA86720@student.uu.se> <15445.44102.288461.155113@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128.131414.49257581.imp@village.org> <15445.45720.514136.887062@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128135603.G66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ This is getting way off topic, so I've moved this to -chat ] > > > : If I enable the clutch in my car, my car moves (assuming it's in gear). > > > : If I disable it, the power is no longer going to the drive wheels. > > > > > > That's not quite right, but it is a good analogy. If you disable your > > > clutch, then you are going to have to shift without it and deal with > > > putting it into gear at stops. > > > > Unfortunately, you can't do it w/out a clutch. (At least, not without > > tearing your clutch/transmission to bits). > > No true :). While at a stop a clutch is a good idea, you can avoid > ware on a number of parts if you learn to shift without clutch while > moving. Actually, the wear you save on the clutch (which is designed for this) will be translated to the gears in the transmission. Very few (!!) people are capable of shifting w/out a clutch and *NOT* doing damage to the gears. Hence the reason for a clutch. > On smaller four and five speed transmissions (or bikes)this is > actually quite easy... on 3 ton grain trucks and tractors its a little > more tricky. Actually, on grain trucks it's *easier*. (Speaking with 15 years of experience driving them. :) :) :) On the smaller cars, the synchro-mesh setup on the gears makes it *much* harder to do it cleanly, while on big grain trucks and bikes, it's easier since they don't add such things since they are mostly un-necessary. (And, not using a clutch is more common.) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 13:24:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.acns.ab.ca (mail.acns.ab.ca [142.179.151.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1561F37B417 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:24:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from colnta.acns.ab.ca (colnta.acns.ab.ca [192.168.1.2]) by mail.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g0SLOdV18965; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:24:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc@colnta.acns.ab.ca) Received: (from davidc@localhost) by colnta.acns.ab.ca (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0SLOde66630; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:24:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from davidc) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:24:39 -0700 From: Chad David To: Nate Williams Cc: "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness Message-ID: <20020128142439.I66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <1617.216.153.202.59.1012240332.squirrel@www1.27in.tv> <20020128192930.GA86720@student.uu.se> <15445.44102.288461.155113@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128.131414.49257581.imp@village.org> <15445.45720.514136.887062@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128135603.G66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com>; from nate@yogotech.com on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 02:02:20PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 02:02:20PM -0700, Nate Williams wrote: > [ This is getting way off topic, so I've moved this to -chat ] > > > > > : If I enable the clutch in my car, my car moves (assuming it's in gear). > > > > : If I disable it, the power is no longer going to the drive wheels. > > > > > > > > That's not quite right, but it is a good analogy. If you disable your > > > > clutch, then you are going to have to shift without it and deal with > > > > putting it into gear at stops. > > > > > > Unfortunately, you can't do it w/out a clutch. (At least, not without > > > tearing your clutch/transmission to bits). > > > > No true :). While at a stop a clutch is a good idea, you can avoid > > ware on a number of parts if you learn to shift without clutch while > > moving. > > Actually, the wear you save on the clutch (which is designed for this) > will be translated to the gears in the transmission. Very few (!!) > people are capable of shifting w/out a clutch and *NOT* doing damage to > the gears. I actually know a lot of people who are capable, but growing up in a family of farmers and mechanics, and spending most of my recreational time at the race track I may not be "normal". > > Hence the reason for a clutch. Agreed :). > > > On smaller four and five speed transmissions (or bikes)this is > > actually quite easy... on 3 ton grain trucks and tractors its a little > > more tricky. > > Actually, on grain trucks it's *easier*. (Speaking with 15 years of > experience driving them. :) :) :) > > On the smaller cars, the synchro-mesh setup on the gears makes it *much* > harder to do it cleanly, while on big grain trucks and bikes, it's > easier since they don't add such things since they are mostly > un-necessary. (And, not using a clutch is more common.) Now you bring synchro-mesh into the picture :). I didn't mean that you couldn't do it in a truck, its just that you have to be careful. We had an old 3 ton where reverse was up and right (where third should be (3rd was right between 1st and reverse)). I used to always go 1st... 2nd... hard stop! Newer machines just don't let you have fun like that. -- Chad David davidc@acns.ab.ca www.FreeBSD.org davidc@freebsd.org ACNS Inc. Calgary, Alberta Canada Fourthly, The constant breeders, beside the gain of eight shillings sterling per annum by the sale of their children, will be rid of the charge of maintaining them after the first year. - Johnathan Swift To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 13:31:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676E437B402 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from caddis.yogotech.com (caddis.yogotech.com [206.127.123.130]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07573; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:31:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by caddis.yogotech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0SLViu70622; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:31:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15445.49984.234327.717296@caddis.yogotech.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:31:44 -0700 To: Chad David Cc: Nate Williams , "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness In-Reply-To: <20020128142439.I66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> References: <1617.216.153.202.59.1012240332.squirrel@www1.27in.tv> <20020128192930.GA86720@student.uu.se> <15445.44102.288461.155113@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128.131414.49257581.imp@village.org> <15445.45720.514136.887062@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128135603.G66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020128142439.I66369@colnta.acns.ab.ca> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > > : If I enable the clutch in my car, my car moves (assuming it's in gear). > > > > > : If I disable it, the power is no longer going to the drive wheels. > > > > > > > > > > That's not quite right, but it is a good analogy. If you disable your > > > > > clutch, then you are going to have to shift without it and deal with > > > > > putting it into gear at stops. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, you can't do it w/out a clutch. (At least, not without > > > > tearing your clutch/transmission to bits). > > > > > > No true :). While at a stop a clutch is a good idea, you can avoid > > > ware on a number of parts if you learn to shift without clutch while > > > moving. > > > > Actually, the wear you save on the clutch (which is designed for this) > > will be translated to the gears in the transmission. Very few (!!) > > people are capable of shifting w/out a clutch and *NOT* doing damage to > > the gears. > > I actually know a lot of people who are capable, but growing up in a > family of farmers and mechanics, and spending most of my recreational > time at the race track I may not be "normal". I *personally* wouldn't have any qualms about doing it on farm machinery or a motorcycle, but I'm leery of doing it on the new tranmissions used in the high-performance sedans and sports cars. I blew up on too many clutches/transmissions on an older model car in high-school. :) > > > On smaller four and five speed transmissions (or bikes)this is > > > actually quite easy... on 3 ton grain trucks and tractors its a little > > > more tricky. > > > > Actually, on grain trucks it's *easier*. (Speaking with 15 years of > > experience driving them. :) :) :) > > > > On the smaller cars, the synchro-mesh setup on the gears makes it *much* > > harder to do it cleanly, while on big grain trucks and bikes, it's > > easier since they don't add such things since they are mostly > > un-necessary. (And, not using a clutch is more common.) > > Now you bring synchro-mesh into the picture :). I didn't mean that > you couldn't do it in a truck, its just that you have to be careful. None of our grain trucks had synchro-mesh on them, hence the reason it was easy. Synchro-mesh is rarely used in big vehicles, because: 1) If it's that big, it's *supposed* to be hard to shift. 2) Synchro-mesh introduces another point of failure. When you've got that much weight the tranmissions is controlling, light-guage aluminum rings are *NOT* a good idea. 3) Due to large 'shifting' ranges on the big rigs and/or large number of gears, the need for synchro-mesh is lessened. On 5/6 speeds, you need because the RPM differentail required to shift between gears is much greater, so synchro-mesh helps you to 'get it into gear' when the RPM's don't match up as well (even with a clutch). However, that's probably alot more information than most people care to hear. Glad this is on -chat. :) :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 13:54:17 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6DE37B400 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4793FBD33; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:54:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17781; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:54:10 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0SLwOf01863; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:58:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 28 Jan 2002 13:58:24 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles writes: > It really depends on whether you're talking about 95% of the > real total disk space, or 95% of the "available" disk space. I > assume you're talking about the real total disk space, but I > think that this kind of qualification needs to be made every > time you talk about a percentage (or a global statement needs to > be made early that every percentage discussed is of one type or > the other unless explicitly indicated otherwise). Good point. I tried to be explicit somewhere in that msg, but I see I was ambiguous there. (I meant "% of the full FS". It's awkward to refer to the other kind.) FreeBSD could use a semi-official Glossary, but it might cause more shed-painting (?) and unhappiness with bad definitions than it'd be worth. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 14:57:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A7537B400 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57443BDA7; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06258; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:57:22 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0SN1ae01876; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad disk partitioning policies (was: "Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")") References: <20020123124025.A60889@HAL9000.wox.org> <3C4F5BEE.294FDCF5@mindspring.com> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <15440.35155.637495.417404@guru.mired.org> <15440.53202.747536.126815@guru.mired.org> <15441.17382.77737.291074@guru.mired.org> <20020125212742.C75216@over-yonder.net> <3C534C4A.35673769@mindspring.com> <0s3d0s5dos.d0s@localhost.localdomain> <3C53ED01.61407A02@mindspring.com> <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 28 Jan 2002 15:01:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C54A24B.B0B607F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <9mit9mm65r.t9m@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > is linear or exponential (exponential), and even saying that > raises more questions from people who want to have knowledge > given to them, instead of having to learn it (such people ... > Realize that this is all irrelevent, and what we are really > talking about is not whether or not the disk space is able > to be used, but rather "eye candy" for the system owener so > that they can see a larger "available disk space" number. ... > I think the confusion comes because anyone who naievely looks > at the man pages, without reading them in depth, can come to > the conclusion that the "free reserve" might be there for root > use to recover a nearly completely full system, and so it's an > administrative, rather than an algorithmic requirement. ... > I believe that no matter *how well* you document things, you > will still have problems with tourists who don't take time > to read what you have written, in depth, to the point of > understanding it. All good points, but it's debatable how well they apply to any particular situation. SA's (esp. amateurs) shouldn't be expected to be all-knowing or even all-reading. Documentation is best done at many levels (I can easily think of 5). A terse man page and technical treatise gives too small a number of levels. Terry, thanks for your gentlemanly response to my rude remarks and for otherwise putting up with me. I'll have trouble deciding whether to discuss other issues when I'll fear that you'll waste time on it whether you find it to be obligatory bother or enjoyable banter. (But I try to pretend that ML/NG msgs are written to unknown people and just worry about what's being discussed, with occasional exceptions like this.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 15:10:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thuvia.demon.co.uk (thuvia.demon.co.uk [193.237.34.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B593B37B404 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (dotar-sojat.thuvia.org [10.0.0.4]) by phaidor.thuvia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0SNAhD71751; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:10:44 GMT (envelope-from mark@thuvia.demon.co.uk) Received: (from mark@localhost) by dotar-sojat.thuvia.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0SNFBD95108; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:15:11 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:15:11 GMT From: Mark Valentine Message-Id: <200201282315.g0SNFBD95108@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> In-Reply-To: Eric Anderson's message of Jan 28, 7:50pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 beta(5) 10/07/98) To: anderson@centtech.com, Rick Hamell Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From: anderson@centtech.com (Eric Anderson) > Date: Mon 28 Jan, 2002 > Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs > I've actually had nothing but problems with the Fujitsu's we have (SCSI). I > don't like their drives at all.. I buy IBM's for IDE, and Seagates for SCSI. Weird. In the past twenty years working with computers (including a stint at administering workstations and servers), _all_ of the drives I've known to die have been Seagates (most of those were supplied by Sun, I avoid them as much as WD and Connor myself). Never witnessed a dying Quantum, Maxtor, Fujitsu, IBM (crossing my fingers for my DTLA now, though...). It's an insignificant statistic (probably talking about 2% of only a few hundred drives), but impresses on me... On a smaller scale I personally own about 20 drives, of those I've ever powered on, and of those two are Seagates, one dead and the other [Barracuda] relegated to a cupboard unpowered because of the noise it makes, replaced by a whispering Fujitsu; all the rest are powered up and working, some after 9 years' duty). Mark. -- Mark Valentine, Thuvia Labs "Tigers will do ANYTHING for a tuna fish sandwich." Mark Valentine uses "We're kind of stupid that way." *munch* *munch* and endorses FreeBSD -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 15:19:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB9D637B41C for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B2C4118F4; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA00E18F3; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:19:09 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Hamell To: Mark Valentine Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Western Digital HDs In-Reply-To: <200201282315.g0SNFBD95108@dotar-sojat.thuvia.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's an insignificant statistic (probably talking about 2% of only a few > hundred drives), but impresses on me... On a smaller scale I personally > own about 20 drives, of those I've ever powered on, and of those two are > Seagates, one dead and the other [Barracuda] relegated to a cupboard > unpowered because of the noise it makes, replaced by a whispering Fujitsu; > all the rest are powered up and working, some after 9 years' duty). 2% *is* insignificant. You can not get less than that in electronics. No manufacturer builds any product with less then 2% failure rate. If any company I've ever dealt with claimed less then 2%, I'd be looking at their numbers pretty carefully. Granted it's annoying when you're the 2%... This is one of the reasons Packard Bell is out of buisness. They claimed 2% failure rate. What they forgot to mention is that it was a 5% failure rate on NEW builds, 2% on the remanufactured products. Rick ******************************************************************* Rick's FreeBSD Web page http://heorot.1nova.com/freebsd Ace Logan's Hardware Guide http://hw.shatteredcrystal.com ***FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 17:15:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E8737B402 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10929 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:15:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:15:31 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Glass Message-Id: <200201290115.SAA10929@lariat.org> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ROFL: How to RTFM Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 17:41:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A0637B402 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0T1f1u92555; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:41:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:41:00 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ROFL: How to RTFM In-Reply-To: <200201290115.SAA10929@lariat.org> Message-ID: <20020128174025.H79959-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Brett Glass wrote: > http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm this would be more entertaining if it were actually on MSs site. specially with that "self abuse" header.. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 18:14:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2A6637B400 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.33.57]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020129021409.WDCS10199.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 02:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3C560573.C2EF4EE8@attbi.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:14:11 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ROFL: How to RTFM References: <20020128174025.H79959-100000@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "f.johan.beisser" wrote: > > On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Brett Glass wrote: > > > http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm > > this would be more entertaining if it were actually on MSs site. I don't know, I kind of liked it. Maybe I just appreciate the intent. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 18:50:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05AF837B419 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12349; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:49:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020128194817.02a699d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:49:02 -0700 To: "f.johan.beisser" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: ROFL: How to RTFM Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20020128174025.H79959-100000@localhost> References: <200201290115.SAA10929@lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:41 PM 1/28/2002, f.johan.beisser wrote: >> http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm > >this would be more entertaining if it were actually on MSs site. I love the way they made it look -- at first glance -- as if it was. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 20:11:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 141.com (mail1.141.com [65.168.139.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B3437B400 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:11:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 141.com [138.88.108.231] by 141.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.05) id A0F44C0E011C; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:11:32 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: An interesting man page from version 3 unix. Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:11:19 -0500 From: Andrew Lankford Message-Id: <20020128211115.SM01296@141.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Came upon this find while rummaging through v3man.tar.gz from www.tuhs.org. I wonder why it's referred to as an "interpreter".... NAME bc -- B interpreter SYNOPSIS bc [ -c ] sfile1.b ... ofile1 ... DESCRIPTION bc is the UNIX B interpreter. It accepts three types of arguments: Arguments whose names end with ".b" are assumed to be B source programs; they are compiled, and the object program is left on the file sfile1.o (i.e. the file whose name is that of the source with ".o" substituted for ".b"). Other arguments (except for "-c") are assumed to be either loader flag arguments, or B-compatible object programs, typically pro- duced by an earlier bc run, or perhaps libraries of B-compatible routines. These programs, together with the results of any com- pilations specified, are loaded (in the order given) to produce an executable program with name a.out. The "-c" argument suppresses the loading phase, as does any syn- tax error in any of the routines being compiled. The language itself is described in [1]. The future of B is uncertain. The language has been totally eclipsed by the newer, more powerful, more compact, and faster language C. FILES file.b input file a.out loaded output b.tmp1 temporary (deleted) b.tmp2 temporary (deleted) /usr/lang/bdir/b[ca] translator /usr/lang/bdir/brt[12] runtime initialization /usr/lib/libb.a builtin functions, etc. /usr/lang/bdir/bilib.a interpreter library SEE ALSO [1] K. Thompson; MM-72-1271-1; Users' Reference to B. cc(I) DIAGNOSTICS see [1]. BUGS Certain external initializations are illegal. (In par- ticular: strings and addresses of externals.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 28 20:21:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F226837B402 for ; Mon, 28 Jan 2002 20:21:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id C7E4C782D0; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:51:51 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:51:51 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Andrew Lankford Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting man page from version 3 unix. Message-ID: <20020129145151.R37206@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020128211115.SM01296@141.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020128211115.SM01296@141.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 28 January 2002 at 23:11:19 -0500, Andrew Lankford wrote: > > Came upon this find while rummaging through v3man.tar.gz from www.tuhs.org. > > I wonder why it's referred to as an "interpreter".... Because B was an interpreted language. Do you want to try building it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 0: 7:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-168.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.168]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1960B37B417 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from topperwein (topperwein [192.168.168.10]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0T867G44220; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:06:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 03:06:01 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Reply-To: Chris BeHanna To: Nate Williams Cc: Chad David , "M. Warner Losh" , Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness In-Reply-To: <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com> Message-ID: <20020129025244.M42962-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't subscribe to -chat, but it's funny that this particular message made it into my inbox anyway, what with me unintentionally becoming very, very familiar with the transmissions of three different motorcycles ('82 Roadster, '91 ZX-11, and '75 Honda CB360T. My '77 BMW is due for an infamous spline lube...hmm). On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Nate Williams wrote: > [...good reasons for a clutch...easier to clutchless-shift a vehicle > that has no synchros, such a big truck or a motorcycle...] A good (sadly, departed) friend of mine broke the clutch cable on his '78 BMW R100/7 a short way out of Cape May, NJ. I shall never forget his ritual of stalling the bike at stoplights, dropping it into first (rocking back and forth to get it to engage), then thumbing the starter with the bike in gear when the light turned green, until the engine caught and the bike suddenly lurched forward. (He rode all the way to Cranford that way, some 90-100 miles.) I was unable to repeat this feat on the '77 BMW R100/7 that I purchased from his widow, when the clutch cable popped in Burgettstown, PA (the starter on this bike is nowhere near as stout as the one on the '78). Fortunately, a very helpful fellow drove me up to an independent Harley shop a few miles up the road, where the proprietor worked his butt off to fabricate a clutch cable for me and only charged me $25 for the effort. I popped the clutch cable on my '75 Honda CB360T one fine day on my way to work. I rode it home at the end of the day, shifting clutchless the entire 40 miles. Starting on a hill was interesting: find neutral as you coast to a stop at a red light, dismount (letting the bike idle), and, when the light turns green, run as fast as you can, leap aboard, into 1st, and gas it hard so it doesn't stall. It helps that the bike weighs significantly under 400 pounds. My last two main rides ('91 ZX-11, 2001 Suzuki Hayabusa) have had hydraulic clutches. No worries there, 'cept that the fluid on the 'busa gets contaminated very quickly (for some odd reason, Suzuki neglected to use a dust boot on the slave cylinder. One of the more popular practical mods for this bike is to fabricate a dust boot from an old piece of inner tube and some rubber cement.). On another occasion--for grins--I clutchless shifted a '91 S-10 pickup just to see if I could do it. That pickup sported a crummy Borg-Warner T5 (with synchros) and, as Nate observed about synchronized transmissions, it was a real chore to shift that beast clutchless. I only did it a few times on one occasion. Bikes are *much* easier. Go figure: lots of geek talk on the MC lists I'm on, so I find MC talk on a geek list! :-) -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 0:41:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3828537B419 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16VTpe-0007LL-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:41:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C566038.D2F7CE4A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:41:28 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Lankford Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting man page from version 3 unix. References: <20020128211115.SM01296@141.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Lankford wrote: > Came upon this find while rummaging through v3man.tar.gz from www.tuhs.org. > > I wonder why it's referred to as an "interpreter".... [ ... all about B ... ] See also: BCPL and Bliss. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 0:50:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDA3237B417 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0051.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.51] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16VTy1-0003Vz-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:50:14 -0800 Message-ID: <3C56623F.4988720C@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 00:50:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris BeHanna Cc: Nate Williams , Chad David , "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness References: <20020129025244.M42962-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris BeHanna wrote: > > I don't subscribe to -chat, but it's funny that this particular > message made it into my inbox anyway, what with me unintentionally > becoming very, very familiar with the transmissions of three different > motorcycles ('82 Roadster, '91 ZX-11, and '75 Honda CB360T. My '77 > BMW is due for an infamous spline lube...hmm). I hear that lubricating a BMW motorcycle causes the Lucas Electric ignition system to go out. Other common causes of failure are: o Riding your BMW motorcycle o Not riding your BMW motorcycle o Finding someone who can sell you the funny BMW batteries, and intending to buy one o Telling jokes about the Queen or a member of the royal family, particularly a Prince Charles "ear joke" o Reading the "Lucas" label out loud, three times, during or immediately following a full moon o Looking at it funny -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 4:27:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBAA37B404 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 04:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16VXMG-0007YI-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:27:28 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id g0TCRSM14471 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:27:28 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:27:28 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Any ideas on FreeBSD related CIS project? Message-ID: <20020129122727.A14442@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, I need a little help choosing a CIS project. I'd love to pick something for either Java or FreeBSD. If it's something that the project (FreeBSD) needs that would be great, but I doubt I could get something that significant done inside one semester. Has anyone else done a school project for FreeBSD they found interesting? I've considered writing a data acquisition program to interface with the instruments I use at work, but I'd like to have more ideas. Also, I did some work on the zip+ driver, but that is obviously already done and it's legacy hardware anyway. I'm asking the list because I'm going to do everything I can to avoid Win32 of any kind. :-) jm -- "Marquis de Sod Lawn Maintenance" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 12:14: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB9A137B400 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B9DBCDC; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09177; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:13:59 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g0TKI6n02385; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any ideas on FreeBSD related CIS project? References: <20020129122727.A14442@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 29 Jan 2002 12:18:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020129122727.A14442@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <9kit9klxmp.t9k@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 41 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > I need a little help choosing a CIS project. I'd love to pick something > for either Java or FreeBSD. If it's something that the project > (FreeBSD) needs that would be great, but I doubt I could get something > that significant done inside one semester. How about a more helpful replacement for the "mergemaster" script (in the language of your choice). Make it keep track of changes in distributed config files and merge (and help provide info for manual merging) the changes into existing customized versions of the files. If time (probably so), have a way for distributor to add info to the latest version (or an update file) so that notes about changes in files (even to the variable/field-level) will be presented to the user as the tool processes the file. Or, probably too big a job, but how about a demo window manager which demos use of a 1/16 inch border (set off by thin black line?) around the screen which is always visable and which consists of many customizable-length, -color, and -divided segments which may be used for various customizable purposes. Put mouse over segment (customizable as to immediate action, delayed action, action with mouse buttons and/or keys) cause actions (customizable, eg, pop up system or custom menu, pop up balloon or other help, pop up windows (eg a clock, "top", xosview), start applications, switch desktops/screens, etc. Corner segments would be special as they can be hit without looking. Come to think of it, maybe an existing WM can already be made to do much of that (just not very well, like snapping windows to the inside of the border, etc), but that wouldn't make a good project. Design (and implement?) a Wiki so that FreeBSD users can much more easily contribute to documenting FreeBSD (and related info). Implement anti-vandalizing and un-vandalizing features. Design (and implement demo for?) a new configuration scheme, maybe as simple as developing a library for parsing standard-format (XML?) config files. You'd know it would never be used, but it might be interesting. Create a man page (and/or other file) reader that can be smooth-scrolled at (mouse?) controllable speeds such that it can be read/scanned while scrolling at a reasonably fast rate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 12:57:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED4B37B402 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:57:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16VfJa-0007fR-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:57:14 -0800 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: serving content from the closest server Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What are some methods that content delivery services use for serving from an access point closest to the end user? Are there DNS servers that count the number of hops between the end user and the possible webservers, and then reply back with an address that is closest? Or maybe figure out the fastest? Or are there web servers (or a CGI or Apache module) that count the number of hops (or the amount of time) between it and the client -- and then either send a HTTP redirect or modify the HTML image or href links to point to a closer server? Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 13:41:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from topperwein.dyndns.org (acs-24-154-28-168.zoominternet.net [24.154.28.168]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5827B37B41B for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:40:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from topperwein (topperwein [192.168.168.10]) by topperwein.dyndns.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0TLcZG46092; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:38:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from behanna@zbzoom.net) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:38:30 -0500 (EST) From: Chris BeHanna Reply-To: Chris BeHanna To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nate Williams , Chad David , "M. Warner Losh" , Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness In-Reply-To: <3C56623F.4988720C@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20020129163421.E46073-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > Chris BeHanna wrote: > > > > I don't subscribe to -chat, but it's funny that this particular > > message made it into my inbox anyway, what with me unintentionally > > becoming very, very familiar with the transmissions of three different > > motorcycles ('82 Roadster, '91 ZX-11, and '75 Honda CB360T. My '77 > > BMW is due for an infamous spline lube...hmm). > > I hear that lubricating a BMW motorcycle causes the Lucas > Electric ignition system to go out. Other common causes > of failure are: > > o Riding your BMW motorcycle > o Not riding your BMW motorcycle > o Finding someone who can sell you the funny BMW > batteries, and intending to buy one > o Telling jokes about the Queen or a member of the > royal family, particularly a Prince Charles "ear > joke" > o Reading the "Lucas" label out loud, three times, > during or immediately following a full moon > o Looking at it funny That'd all be a neat trick, given that BMW electrics were made by Robert Bosch. :) The more common foibles are well-documented on http://www.airheads.org/ . We can start with the Rube Goldberg throttle cable arrangement, move to the ridiculous oil filler location, skip on to the very funky cable-operated front brake master cylinder, take a stop by the ever so pitiful if-God-had-intended-motorcycles-to-have-brakes-he-wouldn't-have-given-you-engine-braking ATE front caliper, and so on, and so on, and so on. I *will* say this: the Russell Day-long saddle and riding position provide much more comfort than my Hayabusa. Too bad I have to give up more than 100 horses to get it. -- Chris BeHanna Software Engineer (Remove "bogus" before responding.) behanna@bogus.zbzoom.net I was raised by a pack of wild corn dogs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 13:42:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1CC37B435 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:41:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0TLfG503363; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:41:16 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:39:15 +0100 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: serving content from the closest server Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org begin C:\WINDOWS\I-COULD-HAVE-WIPED-OUT-WIN.INI At 12:57 PM -0800 2002/01/29, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > What are some methods that content delivery services use for serving from > an access point closest to the end user? Well, there's the Akamai solution -- have the content provider use an Akamai-specific URL, which points at an Akamai server. When the URL is accessed, proprietary algorithms are used by Akamai to determine the geographic and topological location of the user, and the "nearest" Akamai server, at which point a redirect is issued to that local server. When the request hits the local server, it serves up the content from its local cache, or pulls the content from the private source location and and then caches this as well as passing it on to the requester. Obviously, this requires a lot of proprietary work, and you have to "Akamaize" your site in order to be able to take advantage of their content distribution/caching network. > Are there DNS servers that count the number of hops between the end user > and the possible webservers, and then reply back with an address that is > closest? > > Or maybe figure out the fastest? There is the cisco Global Director solution, but I don't know how it works, or how it determines how loaded a server is, etc.... You end up having to greatly reduce the TTL on the DNS responses, in order to deal with the problem of servers going down, becoming unreachable, getting overloaded, etc.... This causes its own load problems. You do end up needing to have a proper L4 load-balancing switch (or set of them) to handle the load at each site, and then some sort of higher-level solution to distribute load across the sites. RadWARE has a different kind of solution for their load-balancing switches. > Or are there web servers (or a CGI or Apache module) that count the number > of hops (or the amount of time) between it and the client -- and then > either send a HTTP redirect or modify the HTML image or href links to > point to a closer server? I'm not aware of anything, no. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 14:25:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (mta06-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C12D37B402 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([62.253.153.60]) by mta06-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020129222531.IRVV7000.mta06-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:25:31 +0000 Received: from tuatara.goatsucker.org (tuatara.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.6]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g0TMPTn44425 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:25:29 GMT (envelope-from scott@tuatara.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by tuatara.goatsucker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g0TMPNG04404 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:25:23 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:25:23 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ximian Mono project to use X11 licence Message-ID: <20020129222523.C293@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-RC i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Thought this might be of interest to the FreeBSD crowd, but not quite -advocacy material: http://www.ximian.com/about_us/press_center/press_releases/mono_partners.html Short summary: The Ximian Mono project (an open-source version of the .NET platform) has dropped the GPL from their class libraries in favour of the (quite BSD-like) X11 licence. Reading between the lines, it appears this was due to some pressure from the commercial interests in the project, namely Intel and HP. Makes a nice change to see some big names *not* following the GLP dogma... Cheers, Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 15:29:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (d13225.upc-d.chello.nl [213.46.13.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E8937B404 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from adv.devet.org (adv.devet.org [192.168.1.2]) by d13225.upc-d.chello.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D614689D; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:29:10 +0100 (CET) Received: by adv.devet.org (Postfix, from userid 100) id 0CDE74126; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:29:10 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 00:29:10 +0100 To: brad.knowles@skynet.be Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: serving content from the closest server Message-ID: <20020129232909.GA1942@adv.devet.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Newsgroups: list.freebsd.chat Organization: Eindhoven, the Netherlands From: devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: > Well, there's the Akamai solution -- have the content provider >use an Akamai-specific URL, which points at an Akamai server. When >the URL is accessed, proprietary algorithms are used by Akamai to >determine the geographic and topological location of the user, and >the "nearest" Akamai server, at which point a redirect is issued to >that local server. When the request hits the local server, it serves >up the content from its local cache, or pulls the content from the >private source location and and then caches this as well as passing >it on to the requester. Last time I looked at the Akamai setup their DNS servers handed out different IP addresses for the same hostname depending on the source of the DNS request in order to redirect people to the nearest Akamai server. So no HTTP redirects at all AFAIK. I remember checking this because of a (probably Dutch) conference paper describing a.o. the Akamai setup. Arjan -- Arjan de Vet, Eindhoven, The Netherlands URL : http://www.iae.nl/users/devet/ Work: http://www.madison-gurkha.com/ (Security, Open Source, Education) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 16:29:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3712037B402 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.21] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g0U0SWi12924; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:28:32 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020129232909.GA1942@adv.devet.org> References: <20020129232909.GA1942@adv.devet.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Get yourself a real mail client -- try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 01:27:31 +0100 To: devet@devet.org (Arjan de Vet), brad.knowles@skynet.be From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: serving content from the closest server Cc: chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org begin C:\WINDOWS\I-COULD-HAVE-WIPED-OUT-WIN.INI At 12:29 AM +0100 2002/01/30, Arjan de Vet wrote: > Last time I looked at the Akamai setup their DNS servers handed out > different IP addresses for the same hostname depending on the source of > the DNS request in order to redirect people to the nearest Akamai > server. So no HTTP redirects at all AFAIK. They probably do this at the first level URL to find the closest master site, but I know that there are specific URLs that get generated which actually refer by name to the closest cache server. I know this because Belgacom Skynet (my former employer) was the host to the first set of Akamai servers in Belgium, and we learned a lot about how they functioned. Kind of like doing anycast for the Global Director (or similar device), then having it do a redirect to the closest load-balancing system to handle the actual traffic. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. end To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 19:11:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4EDC37B41C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0276.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.21] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Vl9U-0007mc-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:11:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3C576449.68A33477@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:11:05 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: serving content from the closest server References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > > What are some methods that content delivery services use for serving from > an access point closest to the end user? Ah, content delivery networks! A cool way to distribute your trojan horse cyber warfare attacks, by compromising a single server that is a customer of the content delivery network, and then letting the network replicate your attack everywhere... > Are there DNS servers that count the number of hops between the end user > and the possible webservers, and then reply back with an address that is > closest? This is the Akamai approach. The Akamai approach is inherently technically flawed, since the DNS servers assigned by dialup negotiation ar going to be in West Virginai, as EarthLink buys all ISPs and points the dialup users at their DNS servers, so everyone looks like they are located at their DNS proxy, rather than where their client is really located. Basically, the Akamai approach to content delivery networks incorrectly assumes that the DNS server will be local to the dialup POP that soemone is dialing into, which is not a correct assumption. So a DNS approach can't work. > Or maybe figure out the fastest? This is the FireClick approach, based on the Jeff Mogul paper on templates and incremental content update. The way this works is by running code on the client (a Java or JavaScript application) that provides the real network locality -- unlike the Akami approach, where all clients tend to use DNS servers at the ISP, and appear to be located at the NOC for the ISP. This has the disadvantage of running code on the client, which assumes a lot of things that aren't really true for many devices today, and probably won't be for any, in the long run (but the incremental update approach is still a good idea). > Or are there web servers (or a CGI or Apache module) that count the number > of hops (or the amount of time) between it and the client -- and then > either send a HTTP redirect or modify the HTML image or href links to > point to a closer server? Apache has a number of modules that could be abused for this, but since the lookup is direct each time, you would also have to do URL rewriting. Do a Yahoo search for apache module load balancing And you will find many of them. Really, you are better off with a reverse proxy cache for static content (or even cacheable dynamic content), than trying to set up a content distribution network this way. There are new protocols being designed (Cisco routers even support some of them) that support connection to service instead of connection to a particular server, and HTTP is the first target protocol for most of these. This hearkens back to the very early 1990's, when I first suggested that I don't care where the next 512 frames of "Indiana Jones" come from, so long as they are there to be displayed by the time they are needed. For a new protocol, though, we are pretty much going to have to wait until there is a WinSock interface for it, and then until it's supported in IE and Netscape, for any hope of wide deployment. Just like IPv6 and IPSEC, we see that Microsoft is (as usual) the bottleneck preventing deployment of useful technology, until they can figure out a way to pee on it and make it theirs so that no one can compete with their implementation. 8-(. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 19:14:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net (pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AB3237B400 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:14:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0276.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.21] helo=mindspring.com) by pintail.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16VlBo-0003NB-00; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5764DA.EFE1995A@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 19:13:30 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris BeHanna Cc: Nate Williams , Chad David , "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness References: <20020129163421.E46073-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris BeHanna wrote: > That'd all be a neat trick, given that BMW electrics were made by > Robert Bosch. :) Ah, you have one of those new fake BMW motorocycles... never mind. 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 20:15:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 141.com (mail1.141.com [65.168.139.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9756637B7D3 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 141.com [138.88.109.59] by 141.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-7.05) id A1AC34A6010E; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 21:08:12 -0700 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting man page from version 3 unix. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:46:37 +1030." <20020130114637.A53459@wantadilla.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 23:08:03 -0500 From: Andrew Lankford Message-Id: <200201292108437.SM01296@141.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20020130114637.A53459@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: >[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > >Single line per paragraph. > >On Tuesday, 29 January 2002 at 20:09:45 -0500, Andrew Lankford wrote: >> In message <20020129145151.R37206@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: > >I'm not sure how it worked, but I'd be surprised if there were a >linker. Typically you'd just enter the source into the interpreter >and run it in that environment. Remember this wasn't a systems >programming language. Ken Thompson's homepage has a link to the B manual: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html Section 10.0 has directions for "compiling" with /etc/bc and several other steps for producing an executable from that. Looks like the proverbial sausage recipe. Interesting, anyway. > >Greg >-- >When re3lying to this mes sage, please take ca#@%!re n ot to mu@ilate the >ori%inal texxt. >For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html >Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >See complete headers for address and phone numbers > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 29 20:31:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC68937B400 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 05ADA78306; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:01:46 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 15:01:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Andrew Lankford Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An interesting man page from version 3 unix. Message-ID: <20020130150145.A94308@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020130114637.A53459@wantadilla.lemis.com> <200201292108437.SM01296@141.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200201292108437.SM01296@141.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 29 January 2002 at 23:08:03 -0500, Andrew Lankford wrote: > In message <20020130114637.A53459@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> Single line per paragraph. >> >> On Tuesday, 29 January 2002 at 20:09:45 -0500, Andrew Lankford wrote: >>> In message <20020129145151.R37206@wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey writes: >> >> I'm not sure how it worked, but I'd be surprised if there were a >> linker. Typically you'd just enter the source into the interpreter >> and run it in that environment. Remember this wasn't a systems >> programming language. > > Ken Thompson's homepage has a link to the B manual: > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html Well, that's Dennis, not Ken. Ken just wrote the manual. > Section 10.0 has directions for "compiling" with /etc/bc and several > other steps for producing an executable from that. Looks like the > proverbial sausage recipe. Interesting, anyway. I think a lot of UNIX was like that at the time. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 4:31:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6B537B402 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 04:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id g0UCVnl79241 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:31:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA61807 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:31:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:31:47 +0100 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Making the linux world on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20020130133146.A61311@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How good is FreeBSD's linuxulator? This is how good it is. I was curious to try out Gentoo Linux (http://www.gentoo.org), but their normal install requires burning an ISO image and I don't have a burner. So I decided to use their build image tarball and further instructions. I cleared out one partition on my FreeBSD machine, and changed the partition id to linux. Under FreeBSD, I used linux's mke2fs to format the partition. I extracted a "build image" of gentoo available on their website. I chrooted to the linux partition and executed their command to rebuild the base utilities (glibc, gcc, binutils); there were some hiccups with glibc but I got over them. I executed the command to rebuild the remaining base packages. It built flawlessly, except, for some reason, the spython package. Finally, I built the linux kernel, configured grub (installed in freebsd), and rebooted. And the machine booted into linux. Well, it hung before booting fully, but after I built and installed a very stripped-down linux kernel, it booted all the way. Perhaps a full-featured linux kernel has problems with my machine. There were several other small things I needed to do while building -- a freebsd-compatible /dev/null, linking /proc to freebsd's linprocfs, etc. But basically, FreeBSD's linuxulator can be used to build the linux kernel and the entire base system of a linux distribution. I'm darn impressed. - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 12:22: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alicia.nttmcl.com (alicia.nttmcl.com [216.69.69.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F77937B48F for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jj@localhost) by alicia.nttmcl.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g0UKLsu14762 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:21:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:21:54 -0800 (PST) From: JJ Behrens To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *_enable="YES" behavior is bogus *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ In-Reply-To: <20020130193849.EDB8F22F69@boredom.ennui.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "The only `intuitive' interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned." > - Bruce Ediger Actually, I just had a kid, and nipples aren't really all that intuitive, but this is way off topic :) -jj To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 13: 9:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.unixathome.org (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F0F37B417 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from wocker (lists.unixathome.org [210.48.103.158]) by lists.unixathome.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0UL9mq18988 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:09:49 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from dan@lists.unixathome.org) Message-Id: <200201302109.g0UL9mq18988@lists.unixathome.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:09:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: fortune candidate Reply-To: dan@langille.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I realize that real value is not measured by my own words, but by the quality of those that take exception to them. -- Bill Strosberg -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary - http://freebsddiary.org/ - practical examples To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 16:19:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cleitus.hosting.swbell.net (cleitus.hosting.swbell.net [216.100.99.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB05E37B402 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pti-inc.com (ppp-64-216-223-240.dialup.stlsmo.swbell.net [64.216.223.240]) by cleitus.hosting.swbell.net id TAA03046; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:19:16 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200201310019.TAA03046@cleitus.hosting.swbell.net> Date: 30 Jan 02 16:33:22 -0600 From: "Heather Wilson" To: Subject: Adv: MEMS and Semiconductor Training Courses Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org PTI Seminars is presenting the following courses for semiconductor personnel.... 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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 18:11:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-131.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2194037B9C0 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 48AD466BDC; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:10:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:10:47 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making the linux world on FreeBSD Message-ID: <20020130181047.A86952@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20020130133146.A61311@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020130133146.A61311@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@online.fr on Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 01:31:47PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 01:31:47PM +0100, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > How good is FreeBSD's linuxulator? This is how good it is. > > [...] You can also run an entire linux distribution within FreeBSD except for some system-level commands which deal with devices and expect certain ioctls to be supported. You could happily stick a Debian or Redhat installation inside a jail on a FreeBSD host system, for example. At some point I'm going to play with something like this as a way of migrating our desktop systems at uni away from redhat and onto FreeBSD without the users noticing too much :) Kris --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8WKenWry0BWjoQKURAt3TAJ9IQp24JxFSIGBR9H8o8xkDSpTMVgCgiREl iq+clUDyUdDVlzJ1TOITZH8= =tTxs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8t9RHnE3ZwKMSgU+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 20: 8:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2ABC37B405 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:08:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0224.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.224] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16W8WO-00050P-00; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:08:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C58C328.E89F2A0A@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:08:08 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garrett Rooney Cc: Peter Wemm , Garance A Drosihn , Alfred Perlstein , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , Dallas De Atley , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: __P macro question References: <20020131025121.308C13A9A@overcee.wemm.org> <3C58BC92.44F5ED37@mindspring.com> <20020131034622.GA63522@electricjellyfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Rooney wrote: > distributing source code is not the same as maintaining it. the > section you're refering to is: > > "Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > years, [ ... ] > this doesn't say anything other than you have to provide the source > code. i fail to see how you get 'maintain' from this. Tell me: how can I ensure the validity of my offer in the future, if I'm the sole distributor because my changes were not accepted back into the main GCC line, and I get hit by a bus? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 20:14:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from isris.pair.com (isris.pair.com [209.68.2.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0486C37B404 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:14:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16462 invoked by uid 3130); 31 Jan 2002 04:14:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:14:50 -0500 From: Garrett Rooney To: Terry Lambert Cc: Peter Wemm , Garance A Drosihn , Alfred Perlstein , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , Dallas De Atley , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: __P macro question Message-ID: <20020131041449.GB63522@electricjellyfish.net> References: <20020131025121.308C13A9A@overcee.wemm.org> <3C58BC92.44F5ED37@mindspring.com> <20020131034622.GA63522@electricjellyfish.net> <3C58C328.E89F2A0A@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C58C328.E89F2A0A@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:08:08PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > Garrett Rooney wrote: > > distributing source code is not the same as maintaining it. the > > section you're refering to is: > > > > "Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > > years, > [ ... ] > > this doesn't say anything other than you have to provide the source > > code. i fail to see how you get 'maintain' from this. > > Tell me: how can I ensure the validity of my offer in the > future, if I'm the sole distributor because my changes were > not accepted back into the main GCC line, and I get hit by > a bus? being required to ensure that your changes are available is not the same as 'maintaining' gcc. at least the way i interpret 'maintaining' a software package, it would involve dealing with bug reports, accepting patches from users, and about a million things other than just making it available for download. if you mean 'make available for download for 3 years' (which is what the license is requiring), then say that. -garrett -- garrett rooney Unix was not designed to stop you from rooneg@electricjellyfish.net doing stupid things, because that would http://electricjellyfish.net/ stop you from doing clever things. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 22:52: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [205.166.121.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FD837B416 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mooseriver.com (localhost.mooseriver.com [127.0.0.1]) by mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.5) with ESMTP id g0V6psN23732; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:51:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Message-ID: <3C58E98A.2030805@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:51:54 -0800 From: Josef Grosch Organization: Moose River Systems, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:0.9.7) Gecko/20020109 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org, chat@bafug.org Subject: Q209354 - HOWTO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This got forwarded to me. It may not be there long..... http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354 - HOWTO.htm -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 30 23:58:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 228A337B405 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 37174 invoked by uid 1001); 31 Jan 2002 07:58:00 -0000 Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:58:00 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: Josef Grosch Cc: chat@freebsd.org, chat@bafug.org Subject: Re: [Chat] Q209354 - HOWTO Message-ID: <20020131075800.GA37130@dub.net> References: <3C58E98A.2030805@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C58E98A.2030805@mooseriver.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD toxic.magnesium.net 4.4-STABLE FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You do realize that's not from a microsoft.com server, right? Re-examine the URL. -Bill PS Kick me if that was obvious. On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:51:54PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >=20 > This got forwarded to me. It may not be there long..... >=20 >=20 > http://www.microsoft.com&item=3Dq209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354= =20 > - HOWTO.htm=20 > >=20 > --=20 > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Chat mailing list > Chat@bafug.org > http://bafug.org/mailman/listinfo/chat --=20 -=3D| Bill Swingle - -=3D| Every message PGP signed -=3D| Fingerprint: C1E3 49D1 EFC9 3EE0 EA6E 6414 5200 1C95 8E09 0223 -=3D| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso= =20 --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8WPkIUgAclY4JAiMRAmXgAJ4kqBGsNmQUtv6XyNgrE0Hj9V0nhwCgslwl dAyeCMUtR1pEVJlppYRR/DA= =1x3J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 0:36:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gscamnlm03.wr.usgs.gov (gscamnlm03.wr.usgs.gov [130.118.4.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262EC37B417 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:36:36 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Swingle Cc: chat@bafug.org, chat@freebsd.org, chat-admin@bafug.org, Josef Grosch Subject: Re: [Chat] Q209354 - HOWTO MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: "Robert L Sowders" Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:36:29 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on gscamnlm03/SERVER/USGS/DOI(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 01/31/2002 12:36:35 AM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_=" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A little rain on their parade is good for them. >You do realize that's not from a microsoft.com server, right? Re-examine >the URL. >-Bill >PS Kick me if that was obvious. >On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:51:54PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >> >> This got forwarded to me. It may not be there long..... >> >> >> http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354 >> - HOWTO.htm >> <>>http://www.microsoft.com&item%3dq209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm> >> >> -- >> Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 >> jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chat mailing list >> Chat@bafug.org >> http://bafug.org/mailman/listinfo/chat -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| Every message PGP signed -=| Fingerprint: C1E3 49D1 EFC9 3EE0 EA6E 6414 5200 1C95 8E09 0223 -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_= Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="attjikva.dat" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="attjikva.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0NClZlcnNpb246IEdudVBHIHYxLjAuNiAoRnJl ZUJTRCkNCkNvbW1lbnQ6IEZvciBpbmZvIHNlZSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmdudXBnLm9yZw0KDQppRDhE QlFFOFdQa0lVZ0FjbFk0SkFpTVJBbVhnQUo0a3FCR3NObVFVdHY2WHlOZ3JFMEhqOVYwbmh3Q2dz bHdsDQpkQXllQ01VdFIxcEVWSmxwcFlSUi9EQT0NCj0xeDNKDQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgU0lHTkFU VVJFLS0tLS0NCg== --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_=-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 0:40:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192AD37B404 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from InterJet.elischer.org ([12.232.206.8]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020131084006.ROEP3578.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@InterJet.elischer.org>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:40:06 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.elischer.org [127.0.0.1]) by InterJet.elischer.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA60270; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:30:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:30:19 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Josef Grosch Cc: chat@freebsd.org, chat@bafug.org Subject: Re: [Chat] Q209354 - HOWTO In-Reply-To: <3C58E98A.2030805@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org error 404 On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Josef Grosch wrote: > > This got forwarded to me. It may not be there long..... > > > http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354 > - HOWTO.htm > > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Chat mailing list > Chat@bafug.org > http://bafug.org/mailman/listinfo/chat > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 2:23:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B22B37B400 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.12] helo=harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16WBqR-0003bS-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:41:19 -0800 Received: from pool0237.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.237] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16WBpn-0006hf-00; Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:40:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C58F4F0.28E4E464@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 23:40:32 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garrett Rooney Cc: Peter Wemm , Garance A Drosihn , Alfred Perlstein , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , Dallas De Atley , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: __P macro question References: <20020131025121.308C13A9A@overcee.wemm.org> <3C58BC92.44F5ED37@mindspring.com> <20020131034622.GA63522@electricjellyfish.net> <3C58C328.E89F2A0A@mindspring.com> <20020131041449.GB63522@electricjellyfish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Rooney wrote: > > Tell me: how can I ensure the validity of my offer in the > > future, if I'm the sole distributor because my changes were > > not accepted back into the main GCC line, and I get hit by > > a bus? > > being required to ensure that your changes are available is not the > same as 'maintaining' gcc. at least the way i interpret 'maintaining' > a software package, it would involve dealing with bug reports, > accepting patches from users, and about a million things other than > just making it available for download. > > if you mean 'make available for download for 3 years' (which is what > the license is requiring), then say that. Yes, I mean "make available for download for three years, even if that period of time exceeds the lifetime of your company". I also mean "maintain", as in each change you make will restart the 3 year clock. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 3:59: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imo-d01.mx.aol.com (imo-d01.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8010237B404 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from MASDKARL@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.26.) id k.b6.5bc6e41 (3735); Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:56:37 -0500 (EST) From: MASDKARL@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 06:56:37 EST Subject: Fwd: [Chat] Q209354 - HOWTO To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com (Josef Grosch) Cc: chat@bafug.org, chat@freebsd.org, chat-admin@bafug.org, unfurl@dub.net, rsowders@usgs.go MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_b6.5bc6e41.298a8af5_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 113 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --part1_b6.5bc6e41.298a8af5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take MASDKARL@aol off your e-mail list --part1_b6.5bc6e41.298a8af5_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (rly-xa05.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.74]) by air-xa04.mail.aol.com (v82.22) with ESMTP id MAILINXA41-0131033821; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:38:21 -0500 Received: from notes1.redlake.com ([216.141.98.195]) by rly-xa05.mx.aol.com (v83.35) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXA52-0131033804; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:38:04 -0500 Received: from gdead.mooseriver.com ([205.166.121.45]) by notes1.redlake.com (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.2c) with ESMTP id 2002013100344341:1998 ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:34:43 -0800 Received: from gdead.mooseriver.com (localhost.mooseriver.com [127.0.0.1]) by gdead.mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g0V8b2411361; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chat-admin@bafug.org) Received: from gscamnlm03.wr.usgs.gov (gscamnlm03.wr.usgs.gov [130.118.4.113]) by gdead.mooseriver.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g0V8ad411336; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:36:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsowders@usgs.gov) To: Bill Swingle Cc: chat@bafug.org, chat@freebsd.org, chat-admin@bafug.org, Josef Grosch Subject: Re: [Chat] Q209354 - HOWTO MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: "Robert L Sowders" Sender: chat-admin@bafug.org Errors-To: chat-admin@bafug.org X-BeenThere: chat@bafug.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: BAFUG Chat List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:36:29 -0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on gscamnlm03/SERVER/USGS/DOI(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 01/31/2002 12:36:37 AM, Itemize by SMTP Server on notes1/RSMASD(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 01/31/2002 12:34:43 AM, Serialize by Router on notes1/RSMASD(Release 5.0.2c |February 2, 2000) at 01/31/2002 12:34:44 AM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_=" --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A little rain on their parade is good for them. >You do realize that's not from a microsoft.com server, right? Re-examine >the URL. >-Bill >PS Kick me if that was obvious. >On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:51:54PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >> >> This got forwarded to me. It may not be there long..... >> >> >> http://www.microsoft.com&item=q209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354 >> - HOWTO.htm >> <>>http://www.microsoft.com&item%3dq209354@hardware.no/nyheter/feb01/Q209354%20-%20HOWTO.htm> >> >> -- >> Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 4.4 >> jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | www.bafug.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Chat mailing list >> Chat@bafug.org >> http://bafug.org/mailman/listinfo/chat -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| Every message PGP signed -=| Fingerprint: C1E3 49D1 EFC9 3EE0 EA6E 6414 5200 1C95 8E09 0223 -=| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_= Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="attjikva.dat" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="attjikva.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0NClZlcnNpb246IEdudVBHIHYxLjAuNiAo RnJlZUJTRCkNCkNvbW1lbnQ6IEZvciBpbmZvIHNlZSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmdudXBnLm9yZw0K DQppRDhEQlFFOFdQa0lVZ0FjbFk0SkFpTVJBbVhnQUo0a3FCR3NObVFVdHY2WHlOZ3JFMEhq OVYwbmh3Q2dzbHdsDQpkQXllQ01VdFIxcEVWSmxwcFlSUi9EQT0NCj0xeDNKDQotLS0tLUVO RCBQR1AgU0lHTkFUVVJFLS0tLS0NCg== --=_mixed 002F48AD88256B52_=-- --part1_b6.5bc6e41.298a8af5_boundary-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 5: 8:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73FC37B400 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:08:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0005.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.5] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16WGwW-0001qR-00; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:07:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5941A5.22755B68@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:07:49 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Erik Trulsson Cc: Peter Wemm , Garance A Drosihn , Alfred Perlstein , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , Dallas De Atley , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: __P macro question References: <20020131025121.308C13A9A@overcee.wemm.org> <3C58BC92.44F5ED37@mindspring.com> <20020131091254.GA61188@student.uu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I moved this discussion to -chat for a reason. Please leave it there. Erik Trulsson wrote: > You seem to have misunderstood the GPL. No, I haven't. > Section 3 says that if you give somebody a GPL'd binary you must also > do *one* of a) b) and c) where b) is an offer valid for at least 3 > years to supply the source on demand. > > But you can just do a), which means supply the source together with the > binary. Then you have no further obligations. To do (a) for an embedded system, you have to supply seperate media with the source code. Further, if you have a network based update system (ala TiVO), then you have to provide the updated code online as well, or send a new CDROM in order to meet criteria (a). A CDROM increases the BOM (Bill Of Materials), which in turn increases the COGS (Cost Of Good Sold), and fails to satisfy the GPL in the online update case, or in the Just In Time manufacturing case, where the image load on the equipment is practically the last thing you do before shipping it (perhaps even doing the load with the system already in the shipping container, via an access panel in the container). If you are providing the code online, rather than with the product, then in order to meet the obligations that were conferred by the license, you have to be able to warrant the availability of the code for 3 years, or you get into a breach of contract liability situation, in which the product you sell becomes "illegal" to distribute. Because it is an embedded system, the "customarily used" clause insists on seperate media, be it network or other. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 10:20: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4DC337B400 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 16WLoW-000LUB-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:20:00 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id g0VIK0U33224 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:20:00 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 18:20:00 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux faces same forking issue BSD did... Message-ID: <20020131181959.A33200@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some time ago, Terry Lambert gave us a history lesson that helped explain why BSD forked, and that it had far less to do with licensing than with revision management. I guess it is true history repeats itself.... http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-826165.html jm -- "Marquis de Sod Lawn Maintenance" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 31 12:10:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E5337B402 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from peter3.wemm.org ([12.232.27.13]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020131201025.IQI7443.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@peter3.wemm.org> for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 20:10:25 +0000 Received: from overcee.wemm.org (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g0VKAPs56432 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.wemm.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DED43809; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Garrett Rooney , Garance A Drosihn , Alfred Perlstein , Poul-Henning Kamp , Jordan Hubbard , Dallas De Atley , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: __P macro question In-Reply-To: <3C58C328.E89F2A0A@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:10:25 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20020131201025.2DED43809@overcee.wemm.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Garrett Rooney wrote: > > distributing source code is not the same as maintaining it. the > > section you're refering to is: > > > > "Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three > > years, > [ ... ] > > this doesn't say anything other than you have to provide the source > > code. i fail to see how you get 'maintain' from this. > > Tell me: how can I ensure the validity of my offer in the > future, if I'm the sole distributor because my changes were > not accepted back into the main GCC line, and I get hit by > a bus? If you get hit by a bus and die, you are excused from the license requirements. Besides, if you were building an embedded system for something like microwave oven microcontrollers, you're hardly likely to be shipping gcc itself on the firmware roms, so you wont have to ship the gcc source, either with the oven or for 3 years. And if you do ship gcc binaries (modified or not, the requirement is the same.. you have to make available on request the source, regardless of whether ftp.gnu.org has a copy etc), then its dead simple to stick a 10-cent cdrom in the back of the manual. At that point your obligations are met and finished. Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 4:29:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CC637B443 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 04:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0081.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.81] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16Wcob-0003EF-00; Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:29:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5A8A13.3F6F490F@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 04:29:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juha Juntunen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ANSI C prototypes in scope References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This isn't a -arch question; moved to -chat, since it's not even really FreeBSD related... Juha Juntunen wrote: > >>>static int sendfile __P((struct printer *pp, int type, char *file, > >>> int format)); > >>> > >>>for a procedure declaration of: > >>> static int > >>> sendfile(pp, type, file, format) > >>> struct printer *pp; > >>> int type; > >>> char *file; > >>> char format; > >>> { > >> > >>That's *EXCATLY* why I'm converting the old, but still legal in c89, > >>style to new style. You get warnings that you didn't get before. > > > >The compiler is broken, if it accepts the second when the > >first prototype is in scope. > > > >It's a broken compiler, period. > > How is the compiler broken, question mark. > > Are you perhaps objecting to the type of the last parameter > ("int format" vs "char format")? Please see Ansi Classic, chapter > "3.5.4.3 Function declarators (including prototypes)", in particular > page 69 lines 19-22. In C99, 6.7.5.3 paragraph #11 seems to apply > similarly. > > If you > - define "__P" suitably > - add "struct printer;" to file scope > - add "}" to complete the function definition > to me, the above code fragment seems to constitute a valid > ANSI C89 translation unit. The compiler complains when the prototype doesn't match the declaration when it is an ANSI style declaration, but not when it is a K&R style declaration (same prototype). Either it should complain for both, or complain for neither. The representational geometry for the function declaration should be irrelevent to whether or not the values match once they are interned. What this is saying is that the compare to the prototype is occuring after the value is interned, and that the value is being interned in K&R form from a K&R declaration. Try switching which one has int and which one char; try adding another chara parameter after the first one. Complainging about prototypes matching functions should work in both directions, sinch "matching" is commutative. It really implies that the compiler could generate incorrect code. I might have a prototype in scope in one place and not another with "char", and the K&R sign extension to int that is resulting in the non-match in this case could result in non-working code on some compiler (perhaps GCC). In any case, the non-match not being caught, even though the declaration is in scope, is really, really ugly. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 15:22: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id 72C6037B4C2; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:21:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:21:59 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Terry Lambert Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , Brett Glass , chip , David Schultz , "f.johan.beisser" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why dual boot? Message-ID: <20020201152159.A99187@FreeBSD.org> References: <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <20020123114658.A514@lpt.ens.fr> <20020123223104.SM01952@there> <3C4FBE5C.2AE8C65@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020124213809.00e6e5d0@localhost> <20020125131659.GB7374@hades.hell.gr> <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C51CD33.4E69B204@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:25:07PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Of course, this ignores the fact that most people *must* use > Windows for certain tasks, because the software for those > tasks is simply *nonexistant* in FreeBSD. In many cases, OSX provides an excellent solution :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 15:45:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 885) id CFE8637B402; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:45:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:45:20 -0800 From: Eric Melville To: Christopher Masto Cc: Brett Glass , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU GRUB folks need BSD hackers Message-ID: <20020201154520.B99187@FreeBSD.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020110073230.00e32220@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020113053321.02aa2d50@localhost> <20020128011410.GA66454@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020128011410.GA66454@netmonger.net>; from chris@netmonger.net on Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:14:10PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think I'll see if I can provide any assistance to the GRUB people > so they can make their boot loader even better for loading FreeBSD. > Hopefully then all BSD users can enjoy it, except for Brett Glass. It seems to me that the license prevents a very substantial portion of FreeBSD users from using grub legally, let alone enjoying it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 15:57:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [192.203.228.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC97037B400 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 7BF4910DDFD; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 15:57:47 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: room share for bsdcon? Message-ID: <20020201155747.B10817@elvis.mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So I guess I am going to make the 'con, anyone up for sharing a room or have a place I can crash at down in SF so that I don't have to make the trek? I'm willing to split expenses or buy someone dinner solid or liquid even! -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' Tax deductable donations for FreeBSD: http://www.freebsdfoundation.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 16:50: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from out006.verizon.net (out006pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8FF37B405 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gte.net ([4.34.145.186]) by out006.verizon.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20020131192624.ATR10804.out006.verizon.net@gte.net>; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:26:24 -0600 Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01916; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:25:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:25:36 -0800 From: Robert Clark To: Chris BeHanna Cc: Nate Williams , Chad David , "M. Warner Losh" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Transmissions :) Was: Firewall config non-intuitiveness Message-ID: <20020131112536.A1887@darkstar.gte.net> References: <15445.48220.670641.705228@caddis.yogotech.com> <20020129025244.M42962-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <20020129025244.M42962-100000@topperwein.dyndns.org>; from behanna@zbzoom.net on Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 03:06:01AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, funny. I shift my Honda Passport all the time without using the clutch. Oh, wait, that has a centrifical clutch. [RC] On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 03:06:01AM -0500, Chris BeHanna wrote: > I don't subscribe to -chat, but it's funny that this particular > message made it into my inbox anyway, what with me unintentionally > becoming very, very familiar with the transmissions of three different > motorcycles ('82 Roadster, '91 ZX-11, and '75 Honda CB360T. My '77 > BMW is due for an infamous spline lube...hmm). > > On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Nate Williams wrote: > > > [...good reasons for a clutch...easier to clutchless-shift a vehicle > > that has no synchros, such a big truck or a motorcycle...] > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 23:10:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 302A237B400 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (modem07.masternet.it [194.184.65.202]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g127De357174 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:13:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:10:13 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: m$ acquired red hat ? :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.microsoft.com&item%3Dq209354@212.254.206.213/1338825GHU_98.asp Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 23:16:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3D937B400 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id AF6067821B; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:46:14 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:46:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: m$ acquired red hat ? :-) Message-ID: <20020202174614.B88485@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 2 February 2002 at 8:10:13 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > http://www.microsoft.com&item%3Dq209354@212.254.206.213/1338825GHU_98.asp secure.socket.ch? Do you know them? Their web server looks pretty empty. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 23:31:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poontang.schulte.org (poontang.schulte.org [209.134.156.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2D7337B416 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarmap.nospam.schulte.org (tarmap.schulte.org [209.134.156.198]) by poontang.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898D8D15F1 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:30:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202012940.02d435b0@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 01:30:23 -0600 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: m$ acquired red hat ? :-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:10 AM 2/2/2002 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >http://www.microsoft.com&item%3Dq209354@212.254.206.213/1338825GHU_98.asp The most legitimate 'fake' URL I've seen. To the untrained eye, this looks absolutely believable. Minus the content, of course. :_) >Best Regards, >Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" >http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco -- Christopher Schulte http://www.schulte.org/ Do not un-munge my @nospam.schulte.org email address. This address is valid. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 23:32:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0E137B405 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (modem07.masternet.it [194.184.65.202]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g127Zq357281 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:36:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202082838.01dffec0@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 08:32:26 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: m$ acquired red hat ? :-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202011729.02ccd660@pop3s.schulte.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02/02/2002, Christopher Schulte wrote: >At 08:10 AM 2/2/2002 +0100, you wrote: > >>http://www.microsoft.com&item%3Dq209354@212.254.206.213/1338825GHU_98.asp > >The most legitimate 'fake' URL I've seen. To the untrained eye, this >looks absolutely believable. Minus the content, of course. :_) Infact, the joke was realized very well, the www.microsoft.com in the first part of the url catch all the attention of the reader :-) Btw as Greg pointed out their web server on 212.254.206.213 (which my dns was unable to resolve back...) is quite empty ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 1 23:47: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poontang.schulte.org (poontang.schulte.org [209.134.156.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2D337B404 for ; Fri, 1 Feb 2002 23:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarmap.nospam.schulte.org (tarmap.schulte.org [209.134.156.198]) by poontang.schulte.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3CED15F1; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:47:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202013718.0374b4d0@pop3s.schulte.org> X-Sender: X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 01:46:59 -0600 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@freebsd.org From: Christopher Schulte Subject: Re: m$ acquired red hat ? :-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202082838.01dffec0@194.184.65.7> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020202011729.02ccd660@pop3s.schulte.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20020202080853.02e19fd8@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:32 AM 2/2/2002 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >At 02/02/2002, Christopher Schulte wrote: >>At 08:10 AM 2/2/2002 +0100, you wrote: >> >>>http://www.microsoft.com&item%3Dq209354@212.254.206.213/1338825GHU_98.asp >> >>The most legitimate 'fake' URL I've seen. To the untrained eye, this >>looks absolutely believable. Minus the content, of course. :_) > >Infact, the joke was realized very well, the www.microsoft.com in the >first part of the url catch all the attention of the reader :-) Show that URL to joe internet user, and he would not spot the discrepancy, me thinks. I'll bet that even many experienced users would pass it up also. As time moves forward however, more and more will be aware of the trickery and learn to spot hoaxes such as this. A while back, most users didn't even suspect an obviously unofficial url as false representation. http://www.some-isp.com/~prankster/ms_acquires_redhat.html would do the trick. As joe has gotten smarter, the pranksters take it to the next level. >Best Regards, >Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" >http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco -- Christopher Schulte http://www.schulte.org/ Do not un-munge my @nospam.schulte.org email address. This address is valid. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 0:55:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD2E37B402 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 00:55:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A9C34133012A; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:56:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 00:56:24 -0800 From: chip User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011126 Netscape6/6.2.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd chat Subject: email, email, email, :-( Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am dissatisfied with the gui mail clients. Netscape6 mail does everything I desire but is slower than a slug. I've tried at least 8 or 10, maybe more, other gui mail clients from the ports and none of them contain all the features of netscape mail but they are all faster. Some won't install at all, some won't connect to my isp's pop server (some will), some are missing too many desired features auto-downloading messages and filtering. So, with that said, I installed Pine and Procmail. I've used Pine a bit in the past at the University, so I am familiar with it. What do I need a pretty gui for anyway, right? I thought procmail could download my email from my isp's pop server, but don't see how. Maybe I need another app yet? What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail from so many mail lists? -- Chip Wiegand www.wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 1:15:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailb.telia.com (mailb.telia.com [194.22.194.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB1D37B402 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 01:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from d1o846.telia.com (d1o846.telia.com [213.65.236.241]) by mailb.telia.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g129FI426243; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:15:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from bossen (h120n2fls31o846.telia.com [217.208.108.120]) by d1o846.telia.com (8.10.2/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g129FHd19480; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:15:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:18:16 +0100 (CET) From: Tor Stormwall X-X-Sender: To: chip Cc: freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( In-Reply-To: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Message-ID: <20020202101420.V94058-100000@bossen.myhome.my> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I am dissatisfied with the gui mail clients. Netscape6 mail does > everything I desire but is slower than a slug. I've tried at least 8 or > 10, maybe more, other gui mail clients from the ports and none of them > contain all the features of netscape mail but they are all faster. Some > won't install at all, some won't connect to my isp's pop server (some > will), some are missing too many desired features auto-downloading > messages and filtering. > So, with that said, I installed Pine and Procmail. I've used Pine a bit > in the past at the University, so I am familiar with it. What do I need > a pretty gui for anyway, right? I thought procmail could download my > email from my isp's pop server, but don't see how. Maybe I need another > app yet? > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail > from so many mail lists? > Procmail is, of what I know, only a filter to separate mails into given files. I use fetchamil to get the mail, procmail sort them into different files, then I use Pine to read them. Best Regards, Tor Stormwall * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * | M A Y T H E S O U R C E B E W I T H Y O U | | | | Tor Stormwall mailto:tor@stormwall.org | | http://creson.com/~tor http://www.FreeBSD.org | | | * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 4:48: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4D6537B416 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 04:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BC448239A05; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 04:47:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 04:47:59 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: chip Cc: freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-ID: <20020202124759.GA5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BABa+tfk3PyYaZZW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BABa+tfk3PyYaZZW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2002-02-02 00:56 -0800, chip wrote: > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail=20 > from so many mail lists? I use: MTA: /usr/ports/mail/postfix-current POP/IMAP client: /usr/ports/mail/fetchmail MDA and filtering tool: /usr/ports/mail/procmail MUA: /usr/ports/mail/mutt-devel SMTP mail: MTA --> MDA --> mailbox POP mail: fetchmail --> MTA --> MDA --> mailbox Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter I discriminate. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --BABa+tfk3PyYaZZW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8W9//IBUx1YRd/t0RAvsxAJ0aPEOXeJOW8UahMTxmHXPeVwxwQACeLl/K V1t0VjY9vphGBnlsNs47mD8= =0rwl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BABa+tfk3PyYaZZW-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 5: 5:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cecov.masternet.it (cecov.masternet.it [194.184.65.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D4637B400 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 05:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from usul.scotty.masternet.it (modem29.masternet.it [194.184.65.224]) by cecov.masternet.it (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g12D8i358628 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:08:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020202140319.014338e8@194.184.65.7> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.7 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:05:16 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( In-Reply-To: <20020202101420.V94058-100000@bossen.myhome.my> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02/02/2002, you wrote: > > I am dissatisfied with the gui mail clients. Netscape6 mail does > > everything I desire but is slower than a slug. I've tried at least 8 or > > 10, maybe more, other gui mail clients from the ports and none of them > > contain all the features of netscape mail but they are all faster. Some > > won't install at all, some won't connect to my isp's pop server (some > > will), some are missing too many desired features auto-downloading > > messages and filtering. > > So, with that said, I installed Pine and Procmail. I've used Pine a bit > > in the past at the University, so I am familiar with it. What do I need > > a pretty gui for anyway, right? I thought procmail could download my > > email from my isp's pop server, but don't see how. Maybe I need another > > app yet? > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail > > from so many mail lists? > > > >Procmail is, of what I know, only a filter to separate mails >into given files. I use fetchamil to get the mail, procmail >sort them into different files, then I use Pine to read them. I am using kmail at work, and it works fine. It has filters and doesn't required anything else to run (except kde itself :-) If you don't have a GUI you can use mutt+fetchmail+procmail ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 8: 6:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EBF2B37B405 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:06:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 37277 invoked by uid 1001); 2 Feb 2002 16:06:35 -0000 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 08:06:35 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chip , freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-ID: <20020202160635.GA37013@dub.net> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> <20020202124759.GA5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020202124759.GA5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD toxic.magnesium.net 4.5-STABLE FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to heartily agree with Greg here. I don't use procmail+mutt is the way to go. I even have keybindings that grab info out of email headers to put in my .procmail 'spammers' list. Very cool. Also, mutt these days will handle even the largest mailbox, something that pine and elm will choke on. -Bill On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:47:59AM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On 2002-02-02 00:56 -0800, chip wrote: > > > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail= =20 > > from so many mail lists? >=20 > I use: >=20 > MTA: /usr/ports/mail/postfix-current > POP/IMAP client: /usr/ports/mail/fetchmail > MDA and filtering tool: /usr/ports/mail/procmail > MUA: /usr/ports/mail/mutt-devel >=20 > SMTP mail: MTA --> MDA --> mailbox > POP mail: fetchmail --> MTA --> MDA --> mailbox >=20 > Greg > --=20 > Gregory S. Sutter I discriminate. > mailto:gsutter@zer0.org=20 > http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/=20 > hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --=20 -=3D| Bill Swingle - -=3D| Every message PGP signed -=3D| Fingerprint: C1E3 49D1 EFC9 3EE0 EA6E 6414 5200 1C95 8E09 0223 -=3D| "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers" Pablo Picasso= =20 --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8XA6LUgAclY4JAiMRAnCZAKC5lcghO4RymJ1JjROsfdQD6Wr+xQCfb9m6 AuCuOx2MOD5KQW26Gh/dRGg= =Cc2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k+w/mQv8wyuph6w0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 12:29: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126D437B41A for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.177.160]) by femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020202202858.IUFU1833.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:28:58 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> X-Sender: ksmm.box@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 15:26:59 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: silly question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was just sitting here thumbing through a magazine and I got to wondering...just who is Dr. Dobb? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 12:45:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BAA37B404 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:45:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.33.57]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020202204525.ZRWB7443.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:45:25 +0000 Message-ID: <3C5C4FE5.AAC90DCA@attbi.com> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 14:45:25 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: silly question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > I was just sitting here thumbing through a magazine and I got to > wondering...just who is Dr. Dobb? Actually, the name of the magazine has a typo in it. It should read "Dr Dobbs' Journal" (note the placement of the apostrophe). That's because the magazine is, and always has been, a front for the Church of the SubGenius, meant to lure people in by posing as programming magazine. It didn't work because they truly are sub-geniuses, and never put anything in the magazine that told you about Bob Dobbs. At least, I think that's the right explanation. If not, kill me. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 13:22:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE6C837B405 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB79BCFC; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA31692; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:22:07 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g12LMdV06956; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: chip Cc: freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Feb 2002 13:22:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Message-ID: <3npu3ninog.u3n@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org chip writes: > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail > from so many mail lists? Gnus in XEmacs is what I use. Has GUI features (menus, mousey links, etc) in addition to tons of features, the most important being the best message editor with auto-formatting, speel checking, etc. Plus it's infinitely customizable (keys, menues, mail headers, ...). It handles mail and newsgroup msgs almost the same. It does filtering and splitting into "folders" from which msgs can be made to expire or can moved to other folders. You can have it compute and tag msgs with a "value" so that important stuff is listed first. Does threading. Everyone should at least install XEmacs and browse the Gnus "info" pages. I think you'd need to use these ports. There are more. /usr/ports/editors/xemacs /usr/ports/editors/xemacs-packages /usr/ports/editors/xemacs-comm-packages To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 13:53:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-131.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A2037B404 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D7A0C66C76; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:53:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:53:27 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Bill Swingle Cc: Gregory Sutter , chip , freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-ID: <20020202135327.A9530@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> <20020202124759.GA5234@klapaucius.zer0.org> <20020202160635.GA37013@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020202160635.GA37013@dub.net>; from unfurl@dub.net on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:06:35AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:06:35AM -0800, Bill Swingle wrote: > I have to heartily agree with Greg here. I don't use procmail+mutt is > the way to go. I even have keybindings that grab info out of email > headers to put in my .procmail 'spammers' list. Very cool. Post relevant bits, please! Kris --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8XF/XWry0BWjoQKURAoI0AJ40Rbcc0BxMgO5wSXQKU3beIwXt8wCdFtZR yh3FlxgctE42SXeFy6m1LtI= =eiVp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uAKRQypu60I7Lcqm-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 13:55:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-131.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C7337B404 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 669CA66C76; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:55:08 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: chip Cc: freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-ID: <20020202135508.B9530@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="DBIVS5p969aUjpLe" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org>; from chip@wiegand.org on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:56:24AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --DBIVS5p969aUjpLe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:56:24AM -0800, chip wrote: > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail=20 > from so many mail lists? I use fetchmail as POP3 client; postfix as MTA; procmail as mail filter and mutt as MUA. I've never come across a more powerful and configurable MUA than mutt..it's great! Kris --DBIVS5p969aUjpLe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8XGA7Wry0BWjoQKURAu93AJ4385vPcwn0lJ6Sd97gPqkcpPjafACgwp5Z k84iMktH9xvtGuDVpQHfXvo= =oZ2o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --DBIVS5p969aUjpLe-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 17: 5:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E31237B405 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1314vZ38171; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:04:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 12:04:56 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chip , freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-ID: <20020203120456.N662@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Kris Kennaway , chip , freebsd chat References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> <20020202135508.B9530@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020202135508.B9530@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 01:55:08PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 01:55:08PM -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:56:24AM -0800, chip wrote: > > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail > > from so many mail lists? > > I use fetchmail as POP3 client; postfix as MTA; procmail as mail > filter and mutt as MUA. I've never come across a more powerful and > configurable MUA than mutt..it's great! I don't use procmail, it seemed too much hassle for the simple task of separating list messages. I just use mutt. I have a couple of other email addresses for list subscriptions, leaving my main mailbox uncluttered. By changing permissions on files I can access them all with mutt from my normal login. When dealing with lists, I use mutt macros to pull out all mail to a particular list (based on the Sender: header) and save them to individual mail folders. For example, Ctrl-F followed by the first three characters of a FreeBSD list will archive those messages for reading later. Here's part of my .muttrc: # ^K general (^G didn't work) macro index \ckpgs "T~e pgsql-novice^M;s=pgsql-novice^M" macro index \ckbug "T~e bugtraq^M;s=bugtraq^M" macro index \ckcom "T~t compost^M;s=compost^M" # ^F freebsd macro index \cfpor "T~e freebsd-ports^M;s=freebsd-ports^M" macro index \cfsta "T~e freebsd-stable^M;s=freebsd-stable^M" macro index \cfsec "T~e freebsd-security^M;s=freebsd-security^M" macro index \cfisp "T~e freebsd-isp^M;s=freebsd-isp^M" ... and so on. Several macros can be combined into one, too macro index \cf3 "^Fsma^M;^Falp^M;^Fdat^M;^Fmul^M" or tag all the birds lists at once macro index \cksmb "T~t budgielist | ~t clicktrain | ~t birdclick | ~t all4budgies | ~t acockatielone | ~t freeflight | ~t crows^M" Before I do this manual filtering, I can look at the inbox, sorted by date-received, and see _all_ new mail as it arrives, without having to check in several different places and possibly missing an interesting topic while it's hot. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 17:20:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (mail19a.dulles19-verio.com [161.58.134.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0A96B37B400 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 17:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19a.dulles19-verio.com (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 017259551; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:20:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C5C8FCF.66D89AB9@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 17:18:08 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Halpin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: silly question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> <3C5C4FE5.AAC90DCA@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Halpin wrote: > > The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > > > I was just sitting here thumbing through a magazine and I got to > > wondering...just who is Dr. Dobb? > > Actually, the name of the magazine has a typo in it. It should read "Dr > Dobbs' Journal" (note the placement of the apostrophe). > > That's because the magazine is, and always has been, a front for the > Church of the SubGenius, meant to lure people in by posing as > programming magazine. > > It didn't work because they truly are sub-geniuses, and never put > anything in the magazine that told you about Bob Dobbs. > > At least, I think that's the right explanation. > > If not, kill me. > > Joe > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I thought that was the guy who started Alcoholics Anonymous :) BTW, those subgenious people are cool, one of them wrote Animabob, a 3d volume renderer that I use all of the time. Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 18: 3:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0205037B402 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.177.160]) by femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20020203020334.QSIF12035.femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:03:34 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202210138.01d3a178@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:03:17 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: silly question In-Reply-To: <3C5C8FCF.66D89AB9@pythonemproject.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> <3C5C4FE5.AAC90DCA@attbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, forgive me if I'm lost here, but has anybody actually answered the original question yet? :-/ At 08:18 PM 2/2/2002, you wrote: >Joe Halpin wrote: > > The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > > > I was just sitting here thumbing through a magazine and I got to > > > wondering...just who is Dr. Dobb? > > > > Actually, the name of the magazine has a typo in it. It should read "Dr > > Dobbs' Journal" (note the placement of the apostrophe). > > > > That's because the magazine is, and always has been, a front for the > > Church of the SubGenius, meant to lure people in by posing as > > programming magazine. > > > > It didn't work because they truly are sub-geniuses, and never put > > anything in the magazine that told you about Bob Dobbs. > > > > At least, I think that's the right explanation. > > > > If not, kill me. > > > > Joe > >I thought that was the guy who started Alcoholics Anonymous :) BTW, >those subgenious people are cool, one of them wrote Animabob, a 3d >volume renderer that I use all of the time. Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 18:41:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pogo.caustic.org (caustic.org [64.163.147.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C7737B400 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jan@localhost) by pogo.caustic.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g132fS522158; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:41:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jan@caustic.org) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 18:41:28 -0800 (PST) From: "f.johan.beisser" X-X-Sender: jan@localhost To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: silly question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202210138.01d3a178@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20020202184104.Q21734-100000@localhost> X-Ignore: This statement isn't supposed to be read by you X-TO-THE-FBI-CIA-AND-NSA: HI! HOW YA DOIN? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > Okay, forgive me if I'm lost here, but has anybody actually answered the > original question yet? :-/ http://www.ddj.com/ddj/history.htm something useful there. -------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+ http://caustic.org/~jan jan@caustic.org "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 19: 5:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B0737B416 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0061.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.61] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16XCyP-0004ze-00; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:05:45 -0800 Message-ID: <3C5CA904.6405498B@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 19:05:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Halpin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: silly question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> <3C5C4FE5.AAC90DCA@attbi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joe Halpin wrote: > It didn't work because they truly are sub-geniuses, and never put > anything in the magazine that told you about Bob Dobbs. > > At least, I think that's the right explanation. > > If not, kill me. It would take too much slack to kill you. How about we just ridicule you, instead, when we get around to it? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 19:42:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818F637B435 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 19:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.237.33.57]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020203034235.MITR26243.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@attbi.com> for ; Sun, 3 Feb 2002 03:42:35 +0000 Message-ID: <3C5CB1AA.BD8C62C9@attbi.com> Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:42:34 -0600 From: Joe Halpin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2-2 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: silly question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020202152605.01d332a0@threespace.com> <3C5C4FE5.AAC90DCA@attbi.com> <3C5CA904.6405498B@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Joe Halpin wrote: > > It didn't work because they truly are sub-geniuses, and never put > > anything in the magazine that told you about Bob Dobbs. > > > > At least, I think that's the right explanation. > > > > If not, kill me. > > It would take too much slack to kill you. How about we > just ridicule you, instead, when we get around to it? > > 8-). Fair enough. I'm not really a slacker anyway, I was just emulating the ethos in a moment of whimsy. Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 20:23:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 473C737B416 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 20:23:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 41518 invoked by uid 100); 3 Feb 2002 04:23:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15452.47941.959034.927580@guru.mired.org> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 22:23:33 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: chip , freebsd chat Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( In-Reply-To: <3npu3ninog.u3n@localhost.localdomain> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> <3npu3ninog.u3n@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.44 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-RC-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > chip writes: > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your mail > > from so many mail lists? > Gnus in XEmacs is what I use. Has GUI features (menus, mousey links, > etc) in addition to tons of features, the most important being the best > message editor with auto-formatting, speel checking, etc. Plus it's > infinitely customizable (keys, menues, mail headers, ...). That's a lot of why I use VM in Xemacs :-). I also use tmda for spam reduction. It won't throw out any legit mail from human beings, and kills all the spam except what comes through mail lists. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 2 21:41: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pioneernet.net (mail.pioneernet.net [207.115.64.224]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F86B37B402 for ; Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from chip.wiegand.org [66.114.152.128] by pioneernet.net (SMTPD32-6.06) id AD97AAC70046; Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:41:43 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 21:41:36 -0800 From: Chip Wiegand To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: email, email, email, :-( Message-Id: <20020202214136.31377fa3.chip@wiegand.org> In-Reply-To: <20020202135508.B9530@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <3C5BA9B8.7070606@wiegand.org> <20020202135508.B9530@xor.obsecurity.org> Organization: Alternative Operating Systems X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.0claws (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:55:08 -0800 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:56:24AM -0800, chip wrote: > > What do some of you guys use, to download, filter, and read your > > mail > > from so many mail lists? > > I use fetchmail as POP3 client; postfix as MTA; procmail as mail > filter and mutt as MUA. I've never come across a more powerful and > configurable MUA than mutt..it's great! > > Kris Okay, now I have fetchmail up and running, verified with fetchmail -c -v and it reports the number of waiting messages. I also have procmail installed and set up the .procmailrc as follows - taken from http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html --- #Preliminaries SHELL=/usr/bin/sh #Use the Bourne shell (check your path!) MAILDIR=${HOME}/Mail #First check what your mail directory is! LOGFILE=${MAILDIR}/procmail.log LOG="--- Logging ${LOGFILE} for ${LOGNAME}, " #Whatever recipes you'll use #The order of the recipes is significant :0 * ^From: scam@cyberspam\.com /dev/null # Accept all the rest to your default mailbox :0: ${DEFAULT} And my .forward file looks like this - from the mutt faq (I ran the command to copy my home Mail directory to the .forward file, as described in the faq) --- /home/chip/Mail I also tried the following line in .forward (without the above line), and it didn't work either - Taken from the http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/info/proctips.html site again --- "|IFS=''&& exec /usr/local/bin/procmail || exit 75 #myid" When I start Mutt I get the error ---- /var/mail/chip: no such file or directory (errorno = 2) and that is correct - there is no /var/mail/chip. It is supposed to use ~/Mail, which is set up in the above files, right? As a side note: when I first started this thread I was dissapointed with the gui email clients found in the ports, well I have since found one that appears to be okay - sylpheed-0.7.0claws. That is what I am using for the time being. I still want to get the above described set up working though. I plan on upgrading this machine to 4.5 next week and want to be settled on the set up for email before then, right now I have more than a dozen email clients installed. (what a mess). -- Chip Wiegand www.wiegand.org chip@wiegand.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message