From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 7:15: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6551037B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 07:15:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1OFF0K27728; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:15:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27944; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:14:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7902FE.4916A655@centtech.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:13:02 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have even used dd to do this too.. Not as "fun" tho as ghost.. Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 8:21 PM -0500 2002/02/23, Chip Morton wrote: > > > If there are any freely available utilities that perform these tasks, > > I'd love to hear about them. Otherwise, if anybody has any > > experiences (positive or negative) with any commercially available > > tools that can get the job done, I'd like to hear about that too. > > I have NTFS, FAT32, Linux and FreeBSD partitions that I'm trying to > > deal with, so any subset of the above would be good. > > The Linux and FreeBSD stuff should be easy -- simply use the > standard OS-provided utilities to do a "dump | restore", and you > should be done. The FAT32 and NTFS stuff may require something a bit > more involved, perhaps including some third-party software, etc.... > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook > page at and see how much fun you can have. > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 8:34:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD6B37B404 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a186.otenet.gr [212.205.215.186]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1OGYFqQ016298; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:34:25 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1O4J0t17341; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:19:00 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 06:18:59 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Matt Wilbur Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Message-ID: <20020224041859.GB4789@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020223202139.0187f118@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-02-23 19:13, Matt Wilbur wrote: > On Sat, 23 Feb 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > > > If there are any freely available utilities that perform these tasks, I'd > > love to hear about them. Otherwise, if anybody has any experiences > > (positive or negative) with any commercially available tools that can get > > the job done, I'd like to hear about that too. I have NTFS, FAT32, Linux > > and FreeBSD partitions that I'm trying to deal with, so any subset of the > > above would be good. > > > > Were you just talking FreeBSD, I'd suggest dump and restore, but with that > hodgepodge, you're probably best off using ghost (www.symantec.com). Works > very well, and can 'grow' partitions on the fly during the > disk cloning.. so you can keep your winders/linux slices the same and make > lots more room for FreeBSD :) Ghost's well worth the price.. Note that AFAIK, ghost doesn't understand BSD slices (called 'partitions' in the DOS/Windows/Linux part of the world), so you (Chip) would need to make sure you leave some space 'unused' to be able to create BSD partitions with the standard fdisk(8) tool of FreeBSD on that disk. Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 8:53: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from donut.efs.org (donut.efs.org [216.141.160.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389DF37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sargon.photon.com (ritz.photon.com [216.141.160.144]) by donut.efs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82ED05BDE; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:58:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 08:52:57 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Wilbur X-Sender: matt@sargon.photon.com To: Brad Knowles Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > I know that Ghost is good for doing a bit-for-bit disk copy for > Microsoft OSes, but does it really properly grok Linux and FreeBSD > filesystems? How does it manage to grow a Linux or FreeBSD > filesystem? Heck, for that matter, how does it manage to grow a > Microsoft filesystem? doh, you're right. ghost 'groks' ntfs/fat32/ext2fs (and will resize them), but not ffs. as to how, i don't know the nuts and bolts, but if you're going from a say, 2G ext2 (shudder) partition (or disk) to an 8G partition (or disk) it'll ask you how big you want the target to be, and it'll accept values between the 'source' volume's size and the max available on the new partition or disk. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 9:29:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C99F37B402 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g1O6CLA74335; Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:12:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 22:12:20 -0800 From: Nik Clayton To: agenkin-dated-1015380945.da0533@thpoon.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org, chat@gtabug.org Subject: Re: System to boot off CD-ROM, and into MFS Message-ID: <20020223221220.A74196@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <87k7t8euro.fsf@tea.thpoon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <87k7t8euro.fsf@tea.thpoon.com>; from agenkin@thpoon.com on Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 09:45:15PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Feb 19, 2002 at 09:45:15PM -0500, Arcady Genkin wrote: > I'm looking for a starting point for this project. Any articles on > creating a bootable FreeBSD cd-roms? I guess that there has to be > some mechanism to transfer the needed files into the MFS system, once > the kernel has loaded, but before it mounted the root file system > (because the root file system is going to be on MFS). The > installation system must be doing something like that. Is that > documented somewhere? Take a look at http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=3D2158+0+archive/2002/freebsd-= advocacy/20020120.freebsd-advocacy which is information about a "FreeBSD Live CD" project which sounds like it could support exactly the sort of functionality you suggest. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjx4hEMACgkQk6gHZCw343U0wACfes/MvdVGieEpHGDYk6CnnayF w2kAnRWUP3KkVDCNbhXDeg/CrlP++AuX =qdLb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 9:47:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2217F37B416 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13642 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:48:14 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:45:38 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:43 PM 2/23/2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > I know that Ghost is good for doing a bit-for-bit disk copy for > Microsoft OSes, but does it really properly grok Linux and FreeBSD > filesystems? How does it manage to grow a Linux or FreeBSD > filesystem? Heck, for that matter, how does it manage to grow a > Microsoft filesystem? I know that PowerQuest PartitionMagic has had the ability to "grow" and "shrink" Microsoft filesystems for a while now. The growing process is actually fast, since it seems to just move the partition boundary and clean out the newly created space. The shrinking requires a defrag, so it take much longer. This has actually worked pretty well on FAT/FAT32 drives for me, but the one time I tried it on an NTFS drive, it screwed up the NTLDR file, and it's really a PITA to get that thing back in place. For Linux and BSD filesystems, PartitionMagic will just tell you that the partitions are there and then (wisely) not allow you to do anything with them except format/delete them. When this problem came up, PowerQuest DriveCopy was the first thing that popped into my head, but I have no experience with it. I hadn't even considered Norton Ghost; I was unaware that it could resize partitions or do anything more than reimage to a drive of exactly the same size. I'll have to give it a look. Thanks all, Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 9:47:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CB237B405 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13638 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:48:14 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124532.018d2ac0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:45:35 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 PM 2/23/2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >Note that AFAIK, ghost doesn't understand BSD slices (called 'partitions' >in the DOS/Windows/Linux part of the world), so you (Chip) would need to >make sure you leave some space 'unused' to be able to create BSD partitions >with the standard fdisk(8) tool of FreeBSD on that disk. And I take it that I'd then be back to using the dump/restore combo to move the data to the newly created slices? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 9:47:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774F737B419 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13648 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:48:15 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124541.018da8d0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:45:43 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You used dd to copy which types of partitions? Have you successfully copied any bootable partitions this way? At 10:13 AM 2/24/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: >I have even used dd to do this too.. Not as "fun" tho as ghost.. > > > >Brad Knowles wrote: > > > > The Linux and FreeBSD stuff should be easy -- simply use the > > standard OS-provided utilities to do a "dump | restore", and you > > should be done. The FAT32 and NTFS stuff may require something a bit > > more involved, perhaps including some third-party software, etc.... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 9:50:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3373E37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 09:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14491 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:51:52 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124913.018d1128@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:50:11 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: blocked mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My e-mail to this list is not being delivered when I use my ISPs SMTP server. How can I find out why and what can I do about it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 10:12: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2969137B404 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a175.otenet.gr [212.205.215.175]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1OIC0qO021628; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:12:02 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1OIC0i22132; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:12:00 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 20:11:59 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities Message-ID: <20020224181158.GB21689@hades.hell.gr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124532.018d2ac0@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124532.018d2ac0@threespace.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-02-24 12:45, Chip Morton wrote: > At 11:18 PM 2/23/2002, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >Note that AFAIK, ghost doesn't understand BSD slices (called 'partitions' > >in the DOS/Windows/Linux part of the world), so you (Chip) would need to > >make sure you leave some space 'unused' to be able to create BSD partitions > >with the standard fdisk(8) tool of FreeBSD on that disk. > > And I take it that I'd then be back to using the dump/restore combo to move > the data to the newly created slices? Dump(8) can be piped to restore, if you have attached and mounted the two disks. For instance, if I wanted to create a copy of ad0 to ad1, and it had 4 partitions in slice ad0s1, I can fdisk/disklabel ad1 too and mount it under /mnt. Then I can: # dump 0f - /dev/ad0s1a | ( cd /mnt ; restore ... ) Similar commands for the rest of them partitions in the ad0s1 slice, and then a bit of editing in /mnt/etc/fstab to accomodate for the partitions of ad1, and I'm done. Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 10:33:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086C037B421 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0219.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.219] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16f3Su-0002t5-00; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:33:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7931F9.7F08969A@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:33:29 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > I know that PowerQuest PartitionMagic has had the ability to "grow" and > "shrink" Microsoft filesystems for a while now. The growing process is > actually fast, since it seems to just move the partition boundary and clean > out the newly created space. The shrinking requires a defrag, so it take > much longer. This has actually worked pretty well on FAT/FAT32 drives for > me, but the one time I tried it on an NTFS drive, it screwed up the NTLDR > file, and it's really a PITA to get that thing back in place. It's a bear to use to get dual-boot working with BootMagic with NTFS, though it's certainly possible to do (I posted on this in the past), but Partition Magic specifically warns you if you try to make an NTFS partition that's bootable span the 4G front of the disk. Windows XP NTFS appears to have resolved this problem, at least to the normal 8G, if not better. Are you sure you didn't just shoot yourself in the foot by ignoring the warning? > For Linux and BSD filesystems, PartitionMagic will just tell you that the > partitions are there and then (wisely) not allow you to do anything with > them except format/delete them. Ah. You are running 6.x, where NTFS support came in, but there was no warning. 7.x warns you, and 7.x is capable of moving EXT2 partitions around. I wrote and offered to write the FFS code for whatever operations they wanted to be able to do, and I also told them about some human factors issues. They were happy to hear about the human factors stuff (got an email back from a V.P. thanking me), but you could hear the crickets on the response to the FFS offer. > When this problem came up, PowerQuest DriveCopy was the first thing that > popped into my head, but I have no experience with it. I hadn't even > considered Norton Ghost; I was unaware that it could resize partitions or > do anything more than reimage to a drive of exactly the same size. I'll > have to give it a look. Ghost will install an image to different sized drives. It's useful that way. I expect DriveCopy will do the same, given the PartitionMagic legacy from PowerQuest, but I haven't used it, so I can't say for sure. Ghost as a Windows XP recovery tool really sucks. You really want it to spam Windows XP onto a partition of indeterminate size, rather than spamming the disk, or give you the option, but it spams the disk. Beware when using "Windows XP recovery CDROMs" lest you blow away your FreeBSD, as well (I had to do a reimage of a dual boot system, but I knew that the recovery disks had major suckage, so I planned ahead with a backup). I expect that if DriveCopy has the different sizing feature, it will have the partition feature, too, since the PowerQuest people know how to redo an NTFS correctly (it's pretty trivial to support NTFS writes, if your FS abstraction API is able to support cancelling of transactions). That would make it a better choice for recovery CDROM mastering, in my book. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 10:56:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A86D37B402 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 10:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lungfish.ntlworld.com ([80.4.0.215]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020224185630.RCGH9422.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@lungfish.ntlworld.com>; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:56:30 +0000 Received: from tuatara.goatsucker.org (tuatara.goatsucker.org [192.168.1.6]) by lungfish.ntlworld.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id g1OIuwj00601; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:56:58 GMT (envelope-from scott@tuatara.goatsucker.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by tuatara.goatsucker.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1OIvSq88951; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:57:28 GMT (envelope-from scott) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 18:57:28 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020224185728.C324@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124913.018d1128@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124913.018d1128@threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:50:11PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:50:11PM -0500, Chip Morton wrote: > My e-mail to this list is not being delivered when I use my ISPs SMTP > server. How can I find out why and what can I do about it? Take a look in /var/log/maillog for the offending messages; there's usually some indication of why a message was rejected. Alternatively, your ISPs mail server may be broken -- it's IP address may not have any reverse DNS set up, or it may be claiming to have a hostname that doesn't match the reverse lookup on its address, or the address might be in a blackhole list. AFAIK, freebsd.org's mailserver rejects all of these cases as potential spam. You might get a bounce message back eventually after the ISP has repeatedly failed to deliver the message. Moan at your ISP and persuade them to do things properly... HTH, Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID | "Eagles may soar, but weasels Cambridge, England | 0x54B171B9 | don't get sucked into jet engines" scott.mitchell@mail.com | 0xAA775B8B | -- Anon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 13:36:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31B2E37B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA30116 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:12 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224152944.01952858@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:29:59 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: blocked mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:57 PM 2/24/2002, Scott Mitchell wrote: >On Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:50:11PM -0500, Chip Morton wrote: > > My e-mail to this list is not being delivered when I use my ISPs SMTP > > server. How can I find out why and what can I do about it? > >Take a look in /var/log/maillog for the offending messages; there's usually >some indication of why a message was rejected. I'm using a Windows mail client (Eudora) so I can't do this. >Alternatively, your ISPs mail server may be broken -- it's IP address may >not have any reverse DNS set up, or it may be claiming to have a hostname >that doesn't match the reverse lookup on its address, or the address might >be in a blackhole list. AFAIK, freebsd.org's mailserver rejects all of >these cases as potential spam. You might get a bounce message back >eventually after the ISP has repeatedly failed to deliver the message. >Moan at your ISP and persuade them to do things properly... It looks like reverse lookup works okay on my ISP's SMTP address. Strangely, the SMTP server that *does* work for me gives different forward and reverse names. And this SMTP server is relatively new (since the dissolution of @Home) so I can't imagine that they'd be blacklisted already. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 13:36:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3571C37B417 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 13:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA30122 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 16:37:13 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:35:34 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities In-Reply-To: <3C7931F9.7F08969A@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 PM 2/24/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >It's a bear to use to get dual-boot working with BootMagic with >NTFS, though it's certainly possible to do (I posted on this >in the past), but Partition Magic specifically warns you if >you try to make an NTFS partition that's bootable span the 4G >front of the disk. Windows XP NTFS appears to have resolved >this problem, at least to the normal 8G, if not better. Are >you sure you didn't just shoot yourself in the foot by ignoring >the warning? It was a while back, so I don't remember the exact details, but I believe I was trying to move a Windows 2000 boot partition by a few megabytes. PartitionMagic bombed out midway through the process. The partition wouldn't boot after it was moved, and it was chock full of errors. After that I just kept my moving/resizing experiments limited to FAT16/32 partitions. > > For Linux and BSD filesystems, PartitionMagic will just tell you that the > > partitions are there and then (wisely) not allow you to do anything with > > them except format/delete them. > >Ah. You are running 6.x, where NTFS support came in, but >there was no warning. 7.x warns you, and 7.x is capable >of moving EXT2 partitions around. [snip] Does the new version allow you to resize ext2 filesystems? And has anybody added support for ext3 yet? (I wouldn't expect so, but while I'm thinking about it...) --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14: 5:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680FB37B404 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr364-a01.otenet.gr [195.167.109.33]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1OM5AqU007572; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:05:29 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1OLVhX23616; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:31:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:31:43 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: The Dark Penguin Lord [was: freebsd-questions: Re: Kernel loader] Message-ID: <20020224213143.GG22935@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.25i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved from -questions to -chat, since I'm waaaaaaaay off topic. ] On 2002-02-22 07:51, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > Matt Dillon's excellent paper on the VM system is my current bedtime > reading; but there are few documents at that level on other aspects. > There is a huge gap waiting to be filled here. What if all the hackers > fell under a bus at the same time tomorrow ? Dammit Cliff, you have eventually found out all about it! Now you know why we have spread the developers all over the globe :) This was mostly done, because in past eras, when conspiracies were an every day thing, there was a rumour spreading over Middle Earth, that a Dark Lord, wielding a ring of immense power, with a penguin engraved on the inner circle of the ring, was gathering his minions on the East, to attack the castle of Berkeley, and uproot Userland and Kernel, the two Trees that gave their light to the world. - Giorgos /me wanders off to finish reading the Silmarillion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14:21:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 847F337B404 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16f71L-0004V6-00; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:21:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3C79675A.C4E475C0@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:21:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224152944.01952858@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > At 12:57 PM 2/24/2002, Scott Mitchell wrote: > >On Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:50:11PM -0500, Chip Morton wrote: > > > My e-mail to this list is not being delivered when I use my ISPs SMTP > > > server. How can I find out why and what can I do about it? > > > >Take a look in /var/log/maillog for the offending messages; there's usually > >some indication of why a message was rejected. > > I'm using a Windows mail client (Eudora) so I can't do this. Your ISP will send you an error message in response to the delivery failure (a DSN -- Delivery Status Notification) from "mailer-daemon", or from "<>". If they filter these messages so you never see the error message (which it sounds like they do), then your ISP is in violation of RFC 821 and RFC 1123 for rejecting "<>", or is in the habit of discarding DSN's because it condones SPAM. Otherwise, your error message would probably be useful here... > It looks like reverse lookup works okay on my ISP's SMTP > address. Strangely, the SMTP server that *does* work for me gives > different forward and reverse names. And this SMTP server is relatively > new (since the dissolution of @Home) so I can't imagine that they'd be > blacklisted already. Generally, you'll get difference forward and reverse with different internal and external DNS names. Looking from outside, though, you'll consistently get the external name, so it's not a problem. Just an idea... how about using the server that works? 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14:21:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52AD037B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g1OMLYOt056744; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:21:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:21:34 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224152944.01952858@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20020224171928.L56566-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Chip Morton wrote: > And this SMTP server is relatively > new (since the dissolution of @Home) so I can't imagine that they'd be > blacklisted already. If it's cox.net that may be your problem. I haven't been able to get MX records from them for weeks. germanium:jack {103} host -t mx cox.net Host not found, try again. germanium:jack {104} -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14:27:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D40537B400; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16f779-0002oy-00; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7968C2.72B0AEBD@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:27:14 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Cliff Sarginson , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Dark Penguin Lord [was: freebsd-questions: Re: Kernel loader] References: <20020224213143.GG22935@hades.hell.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > This was mostly done, because in past eras, when conspiracies were an every > day thing, there was a rumour spreading over Middle Earth, that a Dark > Lord, wielding a ring of immense power, with a penguin engraved on the > inner circle of the ring, was gathering his minions on the East, to attack > the castle of Berkeley, and uproot Userland and Kernel, the two Trees that > gave their light to the world. "One Token-Ring to rule them all, One Token-Ring to find them! One Token-Ring to take them all, And in the darkness bind them!" -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14:35:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC0837B402 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16f7FE-0003WW-00; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:35:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3C796AB6.7F076746@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:35:34 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > > > For Linux and BSD filesystems, PartitionMagic will just tell you that the > > > partitions are there and then (wisely) not allow you to do anything with > > > them except format/delete them. > > > >Ah. You are running 6.x, where NTFS support came in, but > >there was no warning. 7.x warns you, and 7.x is capable > >of moving EXT2 partitions around. [snip] > > Does the new version allow you to resize ext2 filesystems? And has anybody > added support for ext3 yet? (I wouldn't expect so, but while I'm thinking > about it...) ext2 (I just said that! 8-)). The only people who can add support for ext3 is them, and they're not likely to until it replaces ext2 as the default. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 14:53:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 37F3337B400 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0114730360; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 17:58:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C796E32.8A1F4F97@pythonemproject.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:50:26 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > > At 12:33 PM 2/24/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > >It's a bear to use to get dual-boot working with BootMagic with > >NTFS, though it's certainly possible to do (I posted on this > >in the past), but Partition Magic specifically warns you if > >you try to make an NTFS partition that's bootable span the 4G > >front of the disk. Windows XP NTFS appears to have resolved > >this problem, at least to the normal 8G, if not better. Are > >you sure you didn't just shoot yourself in the foot by ignoring > >the warning? > > It was a while back, so I don't remember the exact details, but I believe I > was trying to move a Windows 2000 boot partition by a few > megabytes. PartitionMagic bombed out midway through the process. The > partition wouldn't boot after it was moved, and it was chock full of > errors. After that I just kept my moving/resizing experiments limited to > FAT16/32 partitions. > > > > For Linux and BSD filesystems, PartitionMagic will just tell you that the > > > partitions are there and then (wisely) not allow you to do anything with > > > them except format/delete them. > > > >Ah. You are running 6.x, where NTFS support came in, but > >there was no warning. 7.x warns you, and 7.x is capable > >of moving EXT2 partitions around. [snip] > > Does the new version allow you to resize ext2 filesystems? And has anybody > added support for ext3 yet? (I wouldn't expect so, but while I'm thinking > about it...) > > --Chip Morton > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I am very interested in repartitioning my notebook. It has a 30gig drive now with Win2k and FBSD, but I wish I could redo it for 3 partitions of 10Gig so I can try a new OS like OpenBSD or Linux. Rob. -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 15: 7:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF63837B405 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0039.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.39] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16f7jo-0006uW-00; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:07:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3C79721D.9AA65967@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 15:07:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rob Cc: Chip Morton , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> <3C796E32.8A1F4F97@pythonemproject.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob wrote: > I am very interested in repartitioning my notebook. It has a 30gig > drive now with Win2k and FBSD, but I wish I could redo it for 3 > partitions of 10Gig so I can try a new OS like OpenBSD or Linux. Rob. I have a system set up with 4 partitions, like this, though I only boot the second and third (I use BootMagic; I created a FAT32 partition because BootMagic needed it). I'm not sure if the new OS is capable of booting that far into the disk, or not. Most must have their initial code loaded below 8G. You can usually do this by doing several parititions, and then seperating boot and data for the OS so all the boots are below the critical limit. See my posting last month on how to deal with it (the post had a subject prefix of "Re: FreeBSD Installer", and was sent 24 Jan 2002 to -chat). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 24 19:39:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462F037B402 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08142 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:41:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224193235.01935ab8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 19:38:22 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: blocked mail In-Reply-To: <20020224171928.L56566-100000@germanium.xtalwind.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224152944.01952858@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:21 PM 2/24/2002, Jack O'Neill wrote: >Today Chip Morton wrote: > > And this SMTP server is relatively > > new (since the dissolution of @Home) so I can't imagine that they'd be > > blacklisted already. > >If it's cox.net that may be your problem. I haven't been able to >get MX records from them for weeks. > >germanium:jack {103} host -t mx cox.net >Host not found, try again. >germanium:jack {104} Yep, that's who it is. I'm glad to know that it's not just me. I'm not sure what the hell MX records are, but thanks for the tip. And to Terry, it's just easier to use the Cox SMTP server because it allows me to send mail using all my "personalities." The other doesn't have that convenience. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 5:21:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from saffron.via-net-works.ie (saffron.via-net-works.ie [212.17.32.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5832B37B41C for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from host116-49.dialups.via-net-works.ie ([212.17.49.116] helo=cooperationireland.org) by saffron.via-net-works.ie with esmtp (Exim 3.20 #1) id 16fL4L-0005Nm-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:30 +0000 Received: from IT3 (it3 [199.107.2.144]) by cooperationireland.org (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id g1PDLSj20988; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:21:29 GMT (envelope-from relyod@cooperationireland.org) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20020225132036.02631b00@199.107.2.1> X-Sender: relyod@199.107.2.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:20:36 +0000 To: Terry Lambert From: Mike Doyle Subject: Re: Telecommuting Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3C77468F.F047A13C@mindspring.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20020222105729.025fd568@199.107.2.1> <15478.59893.30992.429026@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry and Mike Meyer Thanks a lot. I thought I was asking for some techie advice, and you've given me not just the techie advice I thought I needed, but answers to half a dozen other questions I hadn't even thought of yet. Once again, I'm blown away by the quality of help I get from these lists. :-) Mike Doyle <>< ============================================================= ><> Michael Doyle email: relyod@cooperationireland.org Network Administrator personal email: relyod@indigo.ie Co-operation Ireland http://www.cooperationireland.org/ Phone: +353-1-661 0588 Fax: +353-1-661 8456 ********************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 5:59:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7256F37B400 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 05:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1PDxGK23811; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:59:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22081; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:59:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7A42BC.5F5CA956@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 07:57:16 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124541.018da8d0@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes.. I do it with compact flash all the time. I use it to copy fat32, ffs, and ext2 (have not tried any ext3 yet). Eric Chip Morton wrote: > > You used dd to copy which types of partitions? Have you successfully > copied any bootable partitions this way? > > At 10:13 AM 2/24/2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > >I have even used dd to do this too.. Not as "fun" tho as ghost.. > > > > > > > >Brad Knowles wrote: > > > > > > The Linux and FreeBSD stuff should be easy -- simply use the > > > standard OS-provided utilities to do a "dump | restore", and you > > > should be done. The FAT32 and NTFS stuff may require something a bit > > > more involved, perhaps including some third-party software, etc.... > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 12: 9:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8247F37B400 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16fRQh-0003Hq-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:08:59 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:08:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224193235.01935ab8@threespace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > >germanium:jack {103} host -t mx cox.net > >Host not found, try again. I don't see that from the three COX nameservers. I see that mx.east.cox.net is the MX. It is running InterMail. > Yep, that's who it is. I'm glad to know that it's not just me. I'm not > sure what the hell MX records are, but thanks for the tip. An MX record basically tells the sending mail server what remote mail server handles the email for a host. For example, aaa.foo's email may be handled by supermailcompany.bar -- so the DNS would indicate that with an MX record. If you don't have an MX record then it tries the A record (which is the IP for the hostname). Also, an MX record has a preference value. So you can list several hosts that can handle email for you. The lower the number, the higher the priority. Usually, the high numbers (lower priority) are just backups, that temporarily queue your mail. (But some use multiple MXs to provide a redundant mail service.) > And to Terry, it's just easier to use the Cox SMTP server because it allows > me to send mail using all my "personalities." The other doesn't have that > convenience. Maybe you could just use your FreeBSD box to handle your outgoing email yourself. (Usually that is even more convenient.) Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 12:38: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139DC37B41B for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CC2BD4D; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04516; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:38:04 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1PKeLF06676; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 25 Feb 2002 12:40:20 -0800 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> Message-ID: <7psn7pwb0r.n7p@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton writes: > Does the new version allow you to resize ext2 filesystems? And has > anybody added support for ext3 yet? (I wouldn't expect so, but while > I'm thinking about it...) As I understand things (ie, not well), "ext3" is just software that does things differently than "ext2" and the disk structures, etc, are still "ext2". I'd expect there to be some different info in those structures or something, but I do seem to recall reading that the partitions can be handled the same. By all means investigate further, but I didn't want you to just give up all hope too soon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 12:49:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400BD37B400 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1PKn4K03984; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:49:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03714; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:49:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7AA2C8.23553A5F@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:47:04 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> <7psn7pwb0r.n7p@localhost.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think you are correct.. Thats why you can easily convert from ext2 to ext3. Eric "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Chip Morton writes: > > > Does the new version allow you to resize ext2 filesystems? And has > > anybody added support for ext3 yet? (I wouldn't expect so, but while > > I'm thinking about it...) > > As I understand things (ie, not well), "ext3" is just software that > does things differently than "ext2" and the disk structures, etc, > are still "ext2". I'd expect there to be some different info in > those structures or something, but I do seem to recall reading that > the partitions can be handled the same. By all means investigate > further, but I didn't want you to just give up all hope too soon. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 13:19: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AC237B417 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 13:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id F05A25343; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:18:56 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Feb 2002 22:18:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 13 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" writes: > An MX record basically tells the sending mail server what remote mail > server handles the email for a host. For example, aaa.foo's email may be > handled by supermailcompany.bar -- so the DNS would indicate that with an > MX record. An impressive feat of obscurantism :) You could simply say that an MX record specifies the Mail eXchanger for a domain (what we call hosts and domains are both called domains in DNS parlance) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:10:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5492A37B426 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id B512AFC5; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:10:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:10:02 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020225161002.I47910@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224193235.01935ab8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:59PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of Jeremy C. Reed, and lo! it spake thus: > > If you don't have an MX record then it tries the A record (which is the IP > for the hostname). Not if your mailer follows the RFC's strictly. > Maybe you could just use your FreeBSD box to handle your outgoing email > yourself. (Usually that is even more convenient.) If you're on a dialup, this can cause both technical and administrative problems. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:16:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD1F37B404 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:16:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16fTQ1-0003OF-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:16:25 -0800 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:16:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail In-Reply-To: <20020225161002.I47910@over-yonder.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > Jeremy C. Reed, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > If you don't have an MX record then it tries the A record (which is the IP > > for the hostname). > > Not if your mailer follows the RFC's strictly. Where is this documented? Section 5 of RFC 2821 says: ... If no MX records are found, but an A RR is found, the A RR is treated as if it was associated with an implicit MX RR, with a preference of 0, pointing to that host. If one or more MX RRs are found for a given name, SMTP systems MUST NOT utilize any A RRs associated with that name unless they are located using the MX RRs; the "implicit MX" rule above applies only if there are no MX records present. If MX records are present, but none of them are usable, this situation MUST be reported as an error. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:25:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8BE337B41A for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:25:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1PMOb809312; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:24:37 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020225161002.I47910@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224193235.01935ab8@threespace.com> <20020225161002.I47910@over-yonder.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 23:24:02 +0100 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jeremy C. Reed" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: blocked mail Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 4:10 PM -0600 2002/02/25, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> If you don't have an MX record then it tries the A record (which is the IP >> for the hostname). > > Not if your mailer follows the RFC's strictly. Re-read RFC 2821 (see ): >> 5. Address Resolution and Mail Handling >> >> Once an SMTP client lexically identifies a domain to which mail >> will be delivered for processing (as described in sections 3.6 >> and 3.7), a DNS lookup MUST be performed to resolve the domain >> name [22]. The names are expected to be fully-qualified domain >> names (FQDNs): mechanisms for inferring FQDNs from partial names >> or local aliases are outside of this specification and, due to a >> history of problems, are generally discouraged. The lookup first >> attempts to locate an MX record associated with the name. If a >> CNAME record is found instead, the resulting name is processed as >> if it were the initial name. If no MX records are found, but an >> A RR is found, the A RR is treated as if it was associated with >> an implicit MX RR, with a preference of 0, pointing to that host. >> If one or more MX RRs are found for a given name, SMTP systems >> MUST NOT utilize any A RRs associated with that name unless they >> are located using the MX RRs; the "implicit MX" rule above >> applies only if there are no MX records present. If MX records >> are present, but none of them are usable, this situation MUST be >> reported as an error. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:34:42 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1638A37B41C for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id F1C0CFC4; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:34:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:34:22 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brad Knowles Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020225163422.K47910@over-yonder.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224193235.01935ab8@threespace.com> <20020225161002.I47910@over-yonder.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:24:02PM +0100 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:24:02PM +0100 I heard the voice of Brad Knowles, and lo! it spake thus: > > Re-read RFC 2821 (see ): Blah, this was based on an incorrect interpretation of 974. Ignore me, please. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:49:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A9337B417 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0225.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.225] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fTvQ-0007er-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:48:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7ABF2C.790B9882@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:48:12 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Chip Morton wrote: > I see that mx.east.cox.net is the MX. It is running InterMail. Ah. This might be it. Many anti-SPAM lists automatically list systems which don't accept "<>" as a "MAIL FROM" address; this was, at one time, the default for InterMail. > > And to Terry, it's just easier to use the Cox SMTP server because it allows > > me to send mail using all my "personalities." The other doesn't have that > > convenience. > > Maybe you could just use your FreeBSD box to handle your outgoing email > yourself. (Usually that is even more convenient.) Doesn't work without a static IP. Cable modems tend to be stingy and not give those. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 14:51:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60B837B400 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0225.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.225] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fTxr-0003sP-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:51:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7ABFDF.4E8A6D63@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:51:11 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , Chip Morton , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Drive/Partition Copying Utilities References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020224124537.018da7d0@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020224153046.01986c18@threespace.com> <7psn7pwb0r.n7p@localhost.localdomain> <3C7AA2C8.23553A5F@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson wrote: > "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > As I understand things (ie, not well), "ext3" is just software that > > does things differently than "ext2" and the disk structures, etc, > > are still "ext2". I'd expect there to be some different info in > > those structures or something, but I do seem to recall reading that > > the partitions can be handled the same. By all means investigate > > further, but I didn't want you to just give up all hope too soon. > > I think you are correct.. Thats why you can easily convert from ext2 to ext3. The real question is can you mount them ext2 after that; if not, then they are different enought that the program will need to be changed by the vendor before it can handle them. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 15: 9: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD06A37B41A for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0225.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.225] helo=mindspring.com) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fUEt-0000QO-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:09:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:08:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:59PM -0800 I heard the voice of > > Jeremy C. Reed, and lo! it spake thus: > > > If you don't have an MX record then it tries the A record (which is the IP > > > for the hostname). > > > > Not if your mailer follows the RFC's strictly. > > Where is this documented? > > Section 5 of RFC 2821 says: > > ... > If no MX records are found, but an A RR is found, the A RR is treated as > if it was associated with an implicit MX RR, with a preference of 0, > pointing to that host. If one or more MX RRs are found for a given > name, SMTP systems MUST NOT utilize any A RRs associated with that > name unless they are located using the MX RRs; the "implicit MX" rule > above applies only if there are no MX records present. If MX records > are present, but none of them are usable, this situation MUST be > reported as an error. The DNS RFC's on SRV records. BTW, many of us really, really objected to the CNAME part of section 5, there, since it means that you have a large reverse list to look at for IP address matching, if you try to insist that a peer SMTP reverse resolve to an A that forward resolves to the same IP. In addition, the MX requirement is often that the sending host be in the MX list for the "MAIL FROM " domain part, or the mail will be refused as a suspicious relay. Enabling SPAM with an RFC doesn't mean that people will run out and implement the change. Probably he meant the pre-RFC2821 standard, which is what most mail servers on the In ternet still conform to today, and probably will for a very long time (may Jon Postel's name live forever). FWIW: RFC-821 is a standard, while RFC-2821 is only a proposed standard. 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 15:45:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1360037B400 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 9A4A8FC4; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:45:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:45:20 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:08:48PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:08:48PM -0800 I heard the voice of Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > In addition, the MX requirement is often that the sending > host be in the MX list for the "MAIL FROM " > domain part, or the mail will be refused as a suspicious > relay. That can't be right. Incoming MX servers, and outgoing sendmail servers, are often different. > Probably he meant the pre-RFC2821 standard, which is what > most mail servers on the In ternet still conform to today, > and probably will for a very long time (may Jon Postel's > name live forever). Now wait just a minute! You're not allowed to support me after I've backed down from a position! :-p The pre-2821 standard is RFC974, which says: --- It is possible that the list of MXs in the response to the query will be empty. This is a special case. If the list is empty, mailers should treat it as if it contained one RR, an MX RR with a preference value of 0, and a host name of REMOTE. (I.e., REMOTE is its only MX). In addition, the mailer should do no further processing on the list, but should attempt to deliver the message to REMOTE. The idea here is that if a domain fails to advertise any information about a particular name we will give it the benefit of the doubt and attempt delivery. --- Of course, it IS a SHOULD, not a MUST, but still... RFC821 doesn't seem to have anything to say about MX records and their utilization, it just defines the SMTP standard itself. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 18: 0:54 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 946A337B41A for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:00:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0319.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.64] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fWuC-0003tb-00; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:59:49 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:59:36 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > In addition, the MX requirement is often that the sending > > host be in the MX list for the "MAIL FROM " > > domain part, or the mail will be refused as a suspicious > > relay. > > That can't be right. Incoming MX servers, and outgoing sendmail servers, > are often different. Nevertheless, it's a common rule, and it used to be the default (it's called relay for MX) until the latest sendmail import; did you read Greg Shapiro's announcement on the changes? > > Probably he meant the pre-RFC2821 standard, which is what > > most mail servers on the In ternet still conform to today, > > and probably will for a very long time (may Jon Postel's > > name live forever). > > Now wait just a minute! You're not allowed to support me after I've > backed down from a position! :-p If a behaviour is not prohibited, it's allowed; if it's not mandated, then it is not required. Violates POLA, in that it fails to "be lenient in what you accept", but really, we're not talking protocol here. The getpeername/gethostbyaddr/gethostbyname in-addr.arpa vs. domain registrar two authority concurrance crosscheck is common practice for anti-spam. There is, in fact, an internet draft on it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 19: 6: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A8B37B404 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:05:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1Q35vK12781 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:05:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (andersonpc [192.168.42.18]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12430 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:05:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:11:41 -0600 From: Eric Anderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: new FreeBSD mailing list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or sometimes even -security. Eric To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 25 22:47:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (rwcrmhc54.attbi.com [216.148.227.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A16D937B402 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc54.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020226064756.XZEM1214.rwcrmhc54.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:47:56 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1Q6lsS55392; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:47:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:47:54 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020225224754.G52727@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:59:36PM -0800 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:59:36PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > Terry Lambert, and lo! it spake thus: > > > > > > In addition, the MX requirement is often that the sending > > > host be in the MX list for the "MAIL FROM " > > > domain part, or the mail will be refused as a suspicious > > > relay. > > > > That can't be right. Incoming MX servers, and outgoing sendmail servers, > > are often different. > > Nevertheless, it's a common rule, and it used to be the > default (it's called relay for MX) until the latest > sendmail import; did you read Greg Shapiro's announcement > on the changes? Pretty sure relay_based_on_MX has nothing to do with the sender, the MAIL FROM. It checks the _recipient's,_ the RCPT TO, domain's MX points to itself. There is no conflict if outgoing and incoming (which is the one MX records point at) are not the same. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 1: 8:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD9937B405; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0152.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.152] helo=mindspring.com) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fdar-0006AW-00; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:08:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7B5076.435E3B8@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:08:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com> <20020225224754.G52727@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > Nevertheless, it's a common rule, and it used to be the > > default (it's called relay for MX) until the latest > > sendmail import; did you read Greg Shapiro's announcement > > on the changes? > > Pretty sure relay_based_on_MX has nothing to do with the sender, the > MAIL FROM. It checks the _recipient's,_ the RCPT TO, domain's MX > points to itself. There is no conflict if outgoing and incoming (which > is the one MX records point at) are not the same. I can't remember the "README" and M4 source code right now, but there is an option to permit a MAIL FROM check to make sure that the EHLO host (peername) is an MX for the from domain. Basically, if it can be checked, you should assume that someone is checking it. Weird-ass DNS setups that break the ability to check are expected to break, even if they are called out as legal in a proposed standard. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 1:38: 8 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E71A37B405 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 01:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1Q9beg27345; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:37:41 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:09:49 +0100 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Terry Lambert From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: blocked mail Cc: "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:45 PM -0600 2002/02/25, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> In addition, the MX requirement is often that the sending >> host be in the MX list for the "MAIL FROM " >> domain part, or the mail will be refused as a suspicious >> relay. > > That can't be right. Incoming MX servers, and outgoing sendmail servers, > are often different. Remember, the check is done at the domain level, if at all. > Of course, it IS a SHOULD, not a MUST, but still... > > RFC821 doesn't seem to have anything to say about MX records and their > utilization, it just defines the SMTP standard itself. I checked RFC 1123, and while there are a number of references to MX records, etc... I couldn't find anything about falling back to pure IP addresses if there are no MX records. It makes sense that this would come from RFC 974, however. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 2:28:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EBA137B400 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020226102816.UJZN2626.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:28:16 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1QASGA56130; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:28:16 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail Message-ID: <20020226022816.I52727@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com> <20020225224754.G52727@blossom.cjclark.org> <3C7B5076.435E3B8@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7B5076.435E3B8@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 01:08:06AM -0800 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 01:08:06AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > > Nevertheless, it's a common rule, and it used to be the > > > default (it's called relay for MX) until the latest > > > sendmail import; did you read Greg Shapiro's announcement > > > on the changes? > > > > Pretty sure relay_based_on_MX has nothing to do with the sender, the > > MAIL FROM. It checks the _recipient's,_ the RCPT TO, domain's MX > > points to itself. There is no conflict if outgoing and incoming (which > > is the one MX records point at) are not the same. > > I can't remember the "README" and M4 source code right now, > but there is an option to permit a MAIL FROM check to make > sure that the EHLO host (peername) is an MX for the from > domain. relay_local_from is what you are talking about (which was never in the freebsd.mc). -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 6:17:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBAEF37B402 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25453 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:18:37 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020226091629.018c6600@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:16:37 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: blocked mail continued Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, here's the bounced mail I got from last week's first undeliverable message. I suspect I have a couple more of these on the way back to me. If anybody wants to interpret this to figure out exactly what went wrong, be my guest. Unlike Jack O'Neill, I don't know the reason, but I'm pretty sure Cox screwed this one up. And if anybody wants to answer my original question which never made it to the list about automating the creation of the links page, I'd still be interested to hear it. --Chip Morton >Return-Path: <> >Received: from lakemtai02.mgt.cox.net (mtai2.east.cox.net [68.1.17.253]) > by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03272 > for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:09:43 -0500 >To: tech_info@threespace.com >From: Mail Administrator >Reply-To: Mail Administrator >Subject: Mail System Error - Returned Mail >Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:07:53 -0500 >Message-ID: <20020225230753.NYIO4890.lakemtai02.mgt.cox.net@lakemtai02> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/report; > report-type=delivery-status; > Boundary="===========================_ _= > 1193847(4890)1014678473" >X-UIDL: b568cd99f8ce5c4d3b6ebeafed493902 > >This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: > >Your message was not delivered because the destination computer was >not reachable within the allowed queue period. The amount of time >a message is queued before it is returned depends on local configura- >tion parameters. > >Most likely there is a network problem that prevented delivery, but >it is also possible that the computer is turned off, or does not >have a mail system running right now. > >Your message was not delivered within 4 days. >Host freebsd.org is not responding. > >The following recipients did not receive this message: > > > >Please reply to Postmaster@mgt.cox.net >if you feel this message to be in error. >Reporting-MTA: dns; lakemtai02.mgt.cox.net >Arrival-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:02:09 -0500 >Received-From-MTA: dns; ATLANTA.threespace.com (68.11.176.217) > >Final-Recipient: RFC822; >Action: failed >Status: 5.2.0 >Remote-MTA: dns; freebsd.org >Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 450 : Helo command >rejected: Host not found >Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([68.11.176.217]) > by lakemtao03.cox.net > (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP > id > <20020221230209.UWPV5816.lakemtao03.cox.net@ATLANTA.threespace.com> > for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:02:09 -0500 >Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020221175351.01900ca0@threespace.com> >X-Sender: tech@threespace.com >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 >Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:01:58 -0500 >To: FreeBSD Chat >From: Chip Morton >Subject: Re: Cross platform bookmarks and address books? >In-Reply-To: <15477.19689.862395.15325@guru.mired.org> >References: <3C7503E6.43549115@centtech.com> > <000d01c1bae1$d9eab490$6d6020c2@pc598cam> > <3C7503E6.43549115@centtech.com> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >I seem to recall reading recently in an MSDN Magazine a solution to this >same problem that used ASP or ASP .NET or something. The author >speculated about the development of a portal site that could offer roaming >bookmarks to users with their personal profiles for the just the case >where people use multiple PCs to access favorite sites. > >While all this CGI/PostgreSQL programming is interesting, is it really any >simpler than just maintaining a simple web page and editing the HTML to >update it with new links? Or was this all just done as an educational >exercise? What benefits come from automating the process? > >--Chip Morton > > > >At 02:39 PM 2/21/2002, Mike Meyer wrote: >>How does that work for bookmarks? My solution to that was a custom >>postgresql database along with a web page that queried the database to >>get the list. Since it is about the simplest database backed web >>application possible, I did a writeup about it that can be found at >>. Adding a maildrop that >>adds adds a URL to the list completes the systems. >> >> >-- >>Mike Meyer >> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ >>Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 8:44:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C43937B400 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0378.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.123] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fkiZ-00067h-00; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:44:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7BBB71.F9984ADA@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:44:33 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: blocked mail continued References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020226091629.018c6600@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chip Morton wrote: > > Well, here's the bounced mail I got from last week's first undeliverable > message. I suspect I have a couple more of these on the way back to > me. If anybody wants to interpret this to figure out exactly what went > wrong, be my guest. Unlike Jack O'Neill, I don't know the reason, but I'm > pretty sure Cox screwed this one up. [ ... ] > >This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: > > > >Your message was not delivered because the destination computer was > >not reachable within the allowed queue period. The amount of time > >a message is queued before it is returned depends on local configura- > >tion parameters. > > > >Most likely there is a network problem that prevented delivery, but > >it is also possible that the computer is turned off, or does not > >have a mail system running right now. > > > >Your message was not delivered within 4 days. > >Host freebsd.org is not responding. Peering connectivity problems for the mail server at Cox. This can be caused by any number of reasons, one of which would be that the people at Cox have installed their firewall backwards. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 11:55:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF3937B41A for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-4-164.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.164]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A900150284; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:54:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id CF4003347; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:54:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC2C4C47; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:54:44 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 19:54:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Eric Anderson Cc: Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list In-Reply-To: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Eric Anderson wrote: > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > sometimes even -security. I'm guessing that would be jmb. mail postmaster@freebsd.org and see :) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 11:57:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC6837B400 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D516DBD75; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27476; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:57:51 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1QK01h07626; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 26 Feb 2002 12:00:01 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson writes: > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > sometimes even -security. You might try sending that question to postmaster@freebsd.org I'm going to suggest on -doc that an answer be added to http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 12:12: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF3B37B421 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.3/8.11.3) id g1Q9Wo705521; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:32:50 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:32:50 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > sometimes even -security. Would it not be a better idea to collect together these suggestions in to the FAQ, or the tuning(7) man page, instead of on a separate mailing list? N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjx7VkEACgkQk6gHZCw343WcbgCfRnSPiwmv1k9fJIcqTW5gURc/ i+gAoJVKTooaARlfP7zjM2dl3dtP61Qj =cCki -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 12:25:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9B637B402 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1QKPnK05892; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:25:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04354; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:25:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7BEED3.A122DE10@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:23:47 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Great.. Thanks! I'll send a mail to postmaster. Eric "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > Eric Anderson writes: > > > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > > sometimes even -security. > > You might try sending that question to postmaster@freebsd.org > > I'm going to suggest on -doc that an answer be added to > http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 12:27:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2309F37B402; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1QKRBK05916; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:27:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04446; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:27:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:25:09 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thats all well and good, and I'm beginning to make a "performance tuning" page, but just like any topic, one person can't do it all, and it often takes lots of people to come up with the right answer to a performance problem. Eric Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > > sometimes even -security. > > Would it not be a better idea to collect together these suggestions in > to the FAQ, or the tuning(7) man page, instead of on a separate mailing > list? > > N > -- > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) > FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) > \/ \ ^ > --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/_) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 12:43:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.the-i-pa.com (mail.the-i-pa.com [151.201.71.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B497137B402 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 57760 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2002 20:50:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO proxy.pt.com) (151.201.71.209) by mail.the-i-pa.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 2002 20:50:39 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Bill Moran Organization: Potential Technology To: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.5 ISO Not consitant. I must press the issue. Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:42:06 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200202261646.LAA01711@alpha.vaxxine.com> <02022612592103.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020226201632.GA2128@raggedclown.net> In-Reply-To: <20020226201632.GA2128@raggedclown.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02022615420605.00300@proxy.pt.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat so this doesn't p*ss anyone off] On Tuesday 26 February 2002 15:16, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:59:21PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > > On Tuesday 26 February 2002 11:46, Paul C. Boyle wrote: > > > I admit I am a newbie using FreeBSD. But I enjoy the community very > > > much. I was using the 4.4 install of FreeBSD for a while, I had a few > > > buggy things with it like the cdplayer in KDE did not work. Not a big > > > deal really but I thought practice installing from scratch is good > > > experience. I got a friend to download and burn the 4.5 iso's for me > > > since I only have a 33.6 dial up. My problem starts with no KDE > > > internet utilities for dialup on the disks. I want to install and get > > > up and running quickly not have to find and learn an new dialup tool. > > > Man was I pissed. All of the other KDE packages were not on the cd's as > > > well. > > > This looks very bad for FreeBSD. > > > > No it doesn't. A very small percentage of people are going to be as > > confused and upset as you are, and they are not the target audience for > > FreeBSD. FreeBSD is targeted mainly at sysadmins and computer geeks, not > > so much at the average computer user. > > I do not want to get embroiled in this argument, but the statement above > is presumptious and in my view incorrect...and way behind the times. I simply disagree with you. > There have been a number of mails on this issue, which means it is one > that should be taken seriously. Agreed. > I have no personal axe to grind on what > should or should not be on the ISO images, I do, and you may be surprised when you find out what edge of the axe I'm grinding ... > but to proclaim as gospel > who the target audience is strikes me as just a tad missing the > changing times we live in. First off, I don't presume to be proclaiming gospel. I'm simply speaking from experience. > Besides which, the "geeks" and "sysadmins" who apparently are the only > ones deemed to have ISO images made for them all probably have high > speed cable or ADSL lines, in which case the CD issue is a non-issue for > them. True. > I suggest also that this remark contradicts the statements about FreeBSD > made on both it's web sites and on the packaged distributions that are > for sale. What exact statements are you speaking of? > This is not to suggest that FreeBSD needs or should follow the > glitzy path that Linux is on, far from it. It is to say that FreeBSD is > perfectly capable of being used as *both* a home-desktop system as running > some of the biggest FTP sites in the world. 100% agreed. Fact is, I believe the CD distros should be built in a slightly different fashion. How about: A CD iso for desktop configs, containing stuff that is typically needed for desktops A CD iso for server configs, containing stuff typically needed for server setups Additional CDs containing the rest of the "stuff" that is normally on CDs 2-4 It wasn't that long ago that a project called EasyBSD started and was going to make the first CD described above. I was part of that group because I felt such an ISO would be of great benefit to the FreeBSD project. Unfortunatly, I didn't have much time to work on things, and neither did anyone else who had initially started the project. There definately are better ways that things could be done, but what is really needed is people to DO those things. -- Bill Moran Potential Technology technical services http://www.potentialtech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 12:44:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D384B37B41A for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16foSX-000Fh0-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:44:25 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id F174713040 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:44:24 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 0BA50225C1; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:44:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:44:21 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 02:25:09PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Thats all well and good, and I'm beginning to make a "performance tuning" page, > but just like any topic, one person can't do it all, and it often takes lots of > people to come up with the right answer to a performance problem. > > Eric > > > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > > > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > > > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > > > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > > > sometimes even -security. > > > > Would it not be a better idea to collect together these suggestions in > > to the FAQ, or the tuning(7) man page, instead of on a separate mailing > > list? > > I am not sure how much traffic such a list would generate. In terms of new lists, I suggested long ago, that the number of questions on filtering/firewalls/nat and all points east generated on -questions could easily justify it's own mailing list. Since this is clearly one of the most confusing, most ill-understood, and frankly insufficiently documented areas of FreeBSD .. and yet one of it's most important. I have twice suggested to Crist Clark he write a book on it.. I think he told me he was once approached to do so. But sadly no such book exists. There are lots of bits of paper flying around the net with recipes, suggestions, partial explanations etc. But there is no-where a coherent in-depth discussion of it all. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 13: 3:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93ED037B417 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1QL3QK06803; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:03:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05373; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:03:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:01:24 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > I am not sure how much traffic such a list would generate. > > In terms of new lists, I suggested long ago, that the number of > questions on filtering/firewalls/nat and all points east generated on -questions > could easily justify it's own mailing list. Since this is clearly > one of the most confusing, most ill-understood, and frankly > insufficiently documented areas of FreeBSD .. and yet one of it's most > important. I have twice suggested to Crist Clark he write a book on it.. > I think he told me he was once approached to do so. But sadly no such > book exists. There are lots of bits of paper flying around the net with > recipes, suggestions, partial explanations etc. But there is no-where > a coherent in-depth discussion of it all. > I must be missing your point, since there IS a -security list, which contains those items. I'm subscribed to a bunch of lists, and every one of them gets the performance issues and questions like "sorry if this is the wrong list to post this question to, but I'm not sure where else to post it..". -questions is a good mailing list, but it's chatty, and ends up being more beginner level questions, instead of specific tweaks and performance modifications, tests, benchmarks, etc. These things CAN be documented, and SHOULD be, and I'd love to do that, but it won't fit in a man page, and is not static enough to be a basic text file someone wrote up a year ago. With each release, comes slightly different tuning and tweaking needs, and with each purpose and use of FreeBSD, comes more variations. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 13:20:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155AD37B41E; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0603.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.194.93] helo=mindspring.com) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16fp17-0000NG-00; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:20:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7BFBFE.272A7B31@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:19:58 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton Cc: Eric Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > > sometimes even -security. > > Would it not be a better idea to collect together these suggestions in > to the FAQ, or the tuning(7) man page, instead of on a separate mailing > list? FWIW, I think a mailing list is necessary to get collaboration, and a FAQ is a much better place than a man page, since a lot of the information isn't going to be applicable to a system capable of displaying man pages, and it's likely to get very large, in any case. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 13:24:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8CE937B405; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 13:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1QLO0K07290; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:24:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA05892; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:23:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7BFC75.A031C0D5@centtech.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 15:21:57 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nik Clayton , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BFBFE.272A7B31@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Exactly. Mailing lists don't "cost" anything anyway, so I say it's worth having, as well as other resources. Eric Terry Lambert wrote: > > Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:11:41PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Who is the correct person @freebsd.org to contact to get a > > > freebsd-performance (or freebsd-perf) mailing list going? I think it > > > would be nice (and beneficial) to get the performance tweaking and other > > > related stuff into a separate list instead of -questions, -chat, or > > > sometimes even -security. > > > > Would it not be a better idea to collect together these suggestions in > > to the FAQ, or the tuning(7) man page, instead of on a separate mailing > > list? > > FWIW, I think a mailing list is necessary to get collaboration, > and a FAQ is a much better place than a man page, since a lot > of the information isn't going to be applicable to a system > capable of displaying man pages, and it's likely to get very > large, in any case. > > -- Terry -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 14:18:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BFBE37B417; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1QMHn828090; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:17:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C7B5076.435E3B8@mindspring.com> References: <3C7AC400.B8F3E9FC@mindspring.com> <20020225174520.L47910@over-yonder.net> <3C7AEC08.223E422C@mindspring.com> <20020225224754.G52727@blossom.cjclark.org> <3C7B5076.435E3B8@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:17:48 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , "Crist J. Clark" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: blocked mail Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jeremy C. Reed" , FreeBSD Chat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 1:08 AM -0800 2002/02/26, Terry Lambert wrote: > I can't remember the "README" and M4 source code right now, > but there is an option to permit a MAIL FROM check to make > sure that the EHLO host (peername) is an MX for the from > domain. Looking at the macros for sendmail 8.12.2, the only ones I find are: FallbackMXhost TryNullMXList # if we are the best MX host for a site, try it # directly instead of config err _RELAY_MX_SERVED_ # do "we" ($=w) act as backup MX server for the # destination domain? _BESTMX_IS_LOCAL_ > Basically, if it can be checked, you should assume that > someone is checking it. I don't see anything anywhere of the sort that you are talking about. Certainly, you can write your own rules to do this sort of thing, as I have done in the past. But I don't see anything here to make this automatic, or even make the life easier of the admin who is creating the config. > Weird-ass DNS setups that break the ability to check are > expected to break, even if they are called out as legal > in a proposed standard. In this modern world of spam, this statement is certainly true. Doing something like this would certainly slow down the accepting of mail from remote sites, but it would help you avoid effluent from a certain category of sources. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 14:52:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5D8437B417 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020226225227.ORTJ2626.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:52:27 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1QMqQ960006; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:52:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:52:26 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Eric Anderson Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com>; from anderson@centtech.com on Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:01:24PM -0600 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:01:24PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > > I am not sure how much traffic such a list would generate. > > > > In terms of new lists, I suggested long ago, that the number of > > questions on filtering/firewalls/nat and all points east generated on -questions > > could easily justify it's own mailing list. Since this is clearly > > one of the most confusing, most ill-understood, and frankly > > insufficiently documented areas of FreeBSD .. and yet one of it's most > > important. I have twice suggested to Crist Clark he write a book on it.. > > I think he told me he was once approached to do so. But sadly no such > > book exists. There are lots of bits of paper flying around the net with > > recipes, suggestions, partial explanations etc. But there is no-where > > a coherent in-depth discussion of it all. > > > > I must be missing your point, since there IS a -security list, which contains > those items. And there are -ipfw and -net for the things Cliff brought up. -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 17:45: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from koza.acecape.com (koza.acecape.com [66.114.74.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B422C37B436 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p65-147.acedsl.com (p65-147.acedsl.com [66.114.65.147]) by koza.acecape.com (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id g1R1io901895; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:44:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:49:31 -0500 (EST) From: Francisco Reyes X-X-Sender: fran@zoraida.natserv.net To: Konstantinos Konstantinidis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IBM x330 & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <20020222130537.56f5be9f.kkonstan@duth.gr> Message-ID: <20020226204857.B99682-100000@zoraida.natserv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 Feb 2002, Konstantinos Konstantinidis wrote: > I'm particularly concerned about the ServeRAID-4Lx host adapter > that doesn't seem to be supported at all... Any particular reason why you are not looking at FreeBSD vendors? terasolutions.com comes to mind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 18:26:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2561837B400 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a221.otenet.gr [212.205.215.221]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g1R2QRI8004017 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:26:28 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1R2QRl17362 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:26:27 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:26:26 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: linux and newfs -b 16384 -f 2048 Message-ID: <20020227022626.GA17146@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A recent post in one of the Greek Linux user lists, revealed that linux UFS support lacks a 16384 block size in the UFS filesystem support. The user who asked thought that it was a bug of the linux kernel, and I pointed to Sheldon's post of benchmarks/tests in -arch. It seems that the linux kernel lacks a 16384 block size: > in my kernel messages: > ufs_read_super: fs_bsize 16384 != {4096, 8192, 32768} > ufs_read_super: bad magic number Adding the block size, and checking that the fragment size of 4096 is also on the list of fragment sizes solved his problems :-))) Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 22:23:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4F437B402 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com ([157.170.134.88]) by jester.ti.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1R6NJ104318 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:23:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from dlep8.itg.ti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15809 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:23:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from popsvr.india.ti.com (popsvr.india.ti.com [157.87.95.215]) by dlep8.itg.ti.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15790 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 00:23:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from paspcsham (dhcp86222 [157.87.86.222]) by popsvr.india.ti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA08167 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:53:14 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com> From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Daemon's name Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:58 +0530 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Hi does the freebsd daemon have a name, like tux the linux penguin ? gautham To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 26 23:55: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from torpy.unbc.ca (torpy.unbc.ca [142.207.144.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D2137B402 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:54:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ugrad.unbc.ca (ugrad.unbc.ca [142.207.144.123]) by torpy.unbc.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA3021293; Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:54:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:54:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Karlson To: Gautham Ganapathy Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Daemon's name In-Reply-To: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi does the freebsd daemon have a name, like tux the linux penguin ? While I've heard some people call him "Chuck," I believe that he actually does NOT have a name. If you want to call him something, you should probably call him "Beastie." (Sort of a pun on a pronunciation of "BSD.") -- Jeremy Man belongs wherever he wants to go. -- Wernher von Braun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 2:42:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791AA37B417; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227BDBD24; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA31835; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:42:19 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1RAiPa08144; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 02:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Eric Anderson , Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 02:44:25 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > And there are -ipfw and -net for the things Cliff brought up. Well, -net, maybe. Or is this obsolete?: freebsd-ipfw Technical discussion concerning the redesign of the IP firewall code FREEBSD-IPFW IP Firewall This is the forum for technical discussions concerning the redesign of the IP firewall code in FreeBSD. This is a technical mailing list for which strictly technical content is expected. As for the book someone asked for, I found "Building Linux and OpenBSD Firewalls" by Wes Sonnenreich & Tom Yates (Wiley) helpful, even though discusses ipfilter instead of ipfw and of course doesn't go into nearly the detail that the ML messages have. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 3: 3:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD53A37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ppp534.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.228.26]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA05102 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:03:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200202271103.GAA05102@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Paul C. Boyle" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Fwd: Daemon's name Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:04:30 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Daemon's name Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:57:58 +0530 From: "Gautham Ganapathy" To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Hi Hi does the freebsd daemon have a name, like tux the linux penguin ? gautham I think its Bestie. Get it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 3:49:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oxmail.ox.ac.uk (oxmail2.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46A937B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 03:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from greid.oriel.ox.ac.uk ([163.1.146.151] helo=sobek.lan) by oxmail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16g2aW-0001RG-02; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:49:36 +0000 Received: (from greid@localhost) by sobek.lan (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1RBna433356; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:49:36 GMT (envelope-from greid@FreeBSD.org) X-Authentication-Warning: sobek.lan: greid set sender to greid@FreeBSD.org using -f Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:49:36 +0000 From: George Reid To: Gautham Ganapathy Cc: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Daemon's name Message-ID: <20020227114936.A33294@FreeBSD.org> References: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com>; from gauthamg123list@yahoo.com on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:58AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:58AM +0530, Gautham Ganapathy wrote: > Hi > > Hi does the freebsd daemon have a name, like tux the linux penguin ? From http://www.mckusick.com/beastie/index.html: Many folks have asked about the BSD daemon's name. Contrary to a myth first started by some advertising droid at Walnut Creek, the daemon's name is NOT Chuck. He is very proud of the fact that he does not have a name, he is just the BSD daemon. If you insist on a name, call him beastie. -- George C A Reid Tel: (08701) 200870 Ext. 26654 FreeBSD Committer/Developer greid@FreeBSD.org Oriel College, Oxford University george.reid@oriel.ox.ac.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 4:28:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B4437B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g3C1-000Ax3-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:28:21 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1RCSLV64865 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:28:21 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:28:20 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i X-Scanner: exiscan *16g3C1-000Ax3-00*v5cYqwpXSb6* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24164.html jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:20:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BB537B420 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:20:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 99F963FC37; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:20:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:20:05 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:28:20PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 12:28:20PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: >=20 > http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24164.html=20 >=20 > jm So, what will happen if it fails? GNU/Richard GNU/Stallman would go nuts :-) Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8fN0EnLctrNyFFPERAgpwAJ9i0UuEmU6Qdhy3PLMoiMvs8B6BYQCfdBHN PVBVKr7a+sQ4Pf5fgHtTNyc= =r9Op -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:20:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27ED837B41F for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1RDKQK27162; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:20:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24254; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:20:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7CDC9E.D22C940B@centtech.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:18:22 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the info, but I'm not (not sure who did, if anyone) asking for a firewall mailing list. I am asking about a PERFORMANCE mailing list. Someone just brought up the fact there weren't any firewall mailing lists, I pointed out -security, and it has grown in to a new subject. Eric "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > > "Crist J. Clark" writes: > > > And there are -ipfw and -net for the things Cliff brought up. > > Well, -net, maybe. Or is this obsolete?: > > freebsd-ipfw > Technical discussion concerning the redesign of the IP firewall code > > FREEBSD-IPFW > IP Firewall > > This is the forum for technical discussions concerning the redesign > of the IP firewall code in FreeBSD. This is a technical mailing list > for which strictly technical content is expected. > > As for the book someone asked for, I found "Building Linux and OpenBSD > Firewalls" by Wes Sonnenreich & Tom Yates (Wiley) helpful, even though > discusses ipfilter instead of ipfw and of course doesn't go into nearly > the detail that the ML messages have. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:24:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3336537B41A for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g449-000D1G-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:24:17 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1RDOHk65221 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:24:17 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:24:17 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 02:20:05PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *16g449-000D1G-00*ZFhxjrUCclI* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | So, what will happen if it fails? GNU/Richard GNU/Stallman would go nuts | :-) I'm glad I'm not the only one who hopes this happens. I also like seeing the many other Linux projects that are starting to 'go commercial' by selling binary-only plug-ins, or by going completely closed source so they can make a living. It looks like his fantasy world is about to come crashing down. Maybe that's an exaggeration, but in the long run, it's bound to happen. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:32:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39EA37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1RDTSS37335; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:29:28 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:24:17PM +0000 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * j mckitrick (jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) [020227 05:23]: > | So, what will happen if it fails? GNU/Richard GNU/Stallman would go nuts > | :-) > > I'm glad I'm not the only one who hopes this happens. I also like > seeing the many other Linux projects that are starting to 'go > commercial' by selling binary-only plug-ins, or by going completely > closed source so they can make a living. > > It looks like his fantasy world is about to come crashing down. Maybe > that's an exaggeration, but in the long run, it's bound to happen. > > jm > -- > My other computer is your windows box. I can't say I agree. When you license under the GPL, you enter a contract. The meaning of this specific contract is pretty well understood, and if you don't understand it, well, don't use it. You can't just decide one day that you want to forfeit that contract just because it doesn't suit your needs (or wants) anymore. You should have thought of that before you used that license. The BSD license has been an option for a long time, you know. ;) I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) Btw, I don't understand your reference to a fantasy world. What is it? -- Benjamin Krueger "From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:38: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BD537B427 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g4HF-000DS7-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:37:49 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1RDbnA65339; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:37:49 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:37:49 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net>; from benjamin@macguire.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:29:28AM -0800 X-Scanner: exiscan *16g4HF-000DS7-00*9D2/Qldo9Mo* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with | anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) Not a bad idea. :-) | Btw, I don't understand your reference to a fantasy world. What is it? Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to stand as god over his 'revolution.' jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:47:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7FF037B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1RDiSI37397; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:44:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:44:28 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: j mckitrick Cc: Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:37:49PM +0000 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * j mckitrick (jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) [020227 05:37]: > | I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with > | anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) > > Not a bad idea. :-) > > | Btw, I don't understand your reference to a fantasy world. What is it? > > Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all > but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to > stand as god over his 'revolution.' While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the stated goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not mix facts with pleasure. ;) Besides, everyone knows the revolution will not be gnuified and there is no cabal; only a stack of dirty punchcards and a guy named Hank. (weeee!) -- Benjamin Krueger "From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 5:51:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E806737B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 05:51:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g4U3-000Dn1-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:51:03 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1RDp3X65433; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:51:03 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:51:03 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net>; from benjamin@macguire.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:44:28AM -0800 X-Scanner: exiscan *16g4U3-000Dn1-00*tWiph/1Sxjg* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all | > but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to | > stand as god over his 'revolution.' | | While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the stated | goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not mix | facts with pleasure. ;) I doubt he would state it explicitly, but his actions seem to indicate such motives. I mean, Bill Gates claims *his* motivation is giving customers what they want. :-) | Besides, everyone knows the revolution will not be gnuified and there is | no cabal; only a stack of dirty punchcards and a guy named Hank. (weeee!) You *completely* lost me here. Need more info. ;-) Though it seems to me the revolution *has* been gnuified, but is just showing indications of running out of steam (read: venture capital) as a viable business (as opposed to development) model. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 6: 0:44 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800AE37B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id D7E993FC37; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:00:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:00:39 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: Benjamin Krueger , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net>; from benjamin@macguire.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:44:28AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:44:28AM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the sta= ted > goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not m= ix > facts with pleasure. ;) Well, I appreciate having gcc et al as much as the next guy, but GNU/Stallman has already shown many times that he is a control freak and/or he smokes weird stuff. Do you remember the glibc affair? A lot of projects are licensed as LGPL these days, I'm sure he'd had them licensed under the GPL if it depended on him. He also behaved like a fool when KDE had a problem (from his point of view) with the QT licensing. Once the problem was solved no one ever heard any apologies from him, of course. The latest flame he started was the .NET/Mono and Gnome controversy. FWIW he has never said you can't make profit selling GPL'ed software, you can charge as much as you want for it, but I've never seen any company making money on that, except a few Linux distribution vendors, which anyway use code created by other people, so that doesn't really count. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8fOaHnLctrNyFFPERAhzEAJ4w814lAyoi9aznrrSxS/i6MmxMRACeNLnb NAeiESMihS+3h9oCvReijzk= =+9FQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 6:16:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rain.macguire.net (sense-sea-MegaSub-1-125.oz.net [216.39.144.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA8AD37B417 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from roo@localhost) by rain.macguire.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1REDbo37508; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roo) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:13:36 -0800 From: Benjamin Krueger To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 01:51:03PM +0000 X-PGP-Key: http://www.macguire.net/benjamin/public_key.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * j mckitrick (jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) [020227 05:50]: > | > Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all > | > but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to > | > stand as god over his 'revolution.' > | > | While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the stated > | goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not mix > | facts with pleasure. ;) > > I doubt he would state it explicitly, but his actions seem to indicate > such motives. I mean, Bill Gates claims *his* motivation is giving > customers what they want. :-) And I believe him, mostly because he has a talent for convincing people that he has what they want (*snip* long winded philosophical debate as to whether a successful persuasive argument can result in true want or need). I also believe that motivation isn't the only one, and that it ranks somewhere a bit below making money and geeking out. > | Besides, everyone knows the revolution will not be gnuified and there is > | no cabal; only a stack of dirty punchcards and a guy named Hank. (weeee!) > > You *completely* lost me here. Need more info. ;-) > Though it seems to me the revolution *has* been gnuified, but is just > showing indications of running out of steam (read: venture capital) as a > viable business (as opposed to development) model. In my humble and small opinion, there is no revolution, only a return to information sanity. Don't worry about being confused. =) "Today, if you are not confused, you are just not thinking clearly." -U. Peter -- Benjamin Krueger "From the moment I picked up your book until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Some day I intend reading it." - Groucho Marx ---------------------------------------------------------------- Send mail w/ subject 'send public key' or query for (0x251A4B18) Fingerprint = A642 F299 C1C1 C828 F186 A851 CFF0 7711 251A 4B18 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 6:23:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A8637B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g4z2-000EoL-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:23:04 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1REN4W65670; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:23:04 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:23:04 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net>; from benjamin@macguire.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:13:36AM -0800 X-Scanner: exiscan *16g4z2-000EoL-00*pZ7x7X0LDbI* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > I doubt he would state it explicitly, but his actions seem to indicate | > such motives. I mean, Bill Gates claims *his* motivation is giving | > customers what they want. :-) | | And I believe him, mostly because he has a talent for convincing people | that he has what they want (*snip* long winded philosophical debate as to | whether a successful persuasive argument can result in true want or need). | | I also believe that motivation isn't the only one, and that it ranks | somewhere a bit below making money and geeking out. Are we talking about billg here or rms? | In my humble and small opinion, there is no revolution, only a return to | information sanity. Don't worry about being confused. =) Reminds me of all the shareware I used to get on the Fred Fish disks for the amiga. ;-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 7:20: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 422BD37B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 60108 invoked by uid 100); 27 Feb 2002 15:19:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:19:44 -0600 To: Benjamin Krueger , j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger types: > * j mckitrick (jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org) [020227 05:50]: > > | > Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all > > | > but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to > > | > stand as god over his 'revolution.' > > | While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the stated > > | goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not mix > > | facts with pleasure. ;) > > I doubt he would state it explicitly, but his actions seem to indicate > > such motives. I mean, Bill Gates claims *his* motivation is giving > > customers what they want. :-) > And I believe him, mostly because he has a talent for convincing people > that he has what they want (*snip* long winded philosophical debate as to > whether a successful persuasive argument can result in true want or need). "Sincerity is critical. Once you can fake that, everything else is easy." > I also believe that motivation isn't the only one, and that it ranks > somewhere a bit below making money and geeking out. j mckitrick types: > | In my humble and small opinion, there is no revolution, only a return to > | information sanity. Don't worry about being confused. =) > > Reminds me of all the shareware I used to get on the Fred Fish disks for > the amiga. ;-) Yup. I had the complete set up through number 500-something. This is what makes me think that so much stuff is GPL'ed not because people are deceived by RMS, or agree with his goals, but because sharing software is something that resonates in the hacker community. I remember more than one bit of "shareware" where "sharing" was donating to their favorite charity, or you could register by emailing the author the fish disk # and name of a program you had donated. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 7:20:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from threespace.com (server44.aitcom.net [208.234.0.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB9C37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:20:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com (ip68-11-176-217.br.no.cox.net [68.11.176.217]) by threespace.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA31611 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:22:18 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20020227101937.019a1008@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:20:06 -0500 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:51 AM 2/27/2002, you wrote: >| Besides, everyone knows the revolution will not be gnuified and there is >| no cabal; only a stack of dirty punchcards and a guy named Hank. (weeee!) > >You *completely* lost me here. Need more info. ;-) Ugh * hanging head in hands *...I've heard a lot of twists on Gil Scott-Heron's lyrics, but this has got to be one of the nerdiest ones ever. :-) I think he's making an elliptic reference to this: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/4959/revolution.html I think. :-/ --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 8:35:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B351B37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16g72k-000LDl-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:35:02 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1RGZ1066601; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:35:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:35:01 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Mike Meyer Cc: Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org>; from mwm@mired.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:19:44AM -0600 X-Scanner: exiscan *16g72k-000LDl-00*BPNI/akWEOc* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | what makes me think that so much stuff is GPL'ed not because people | are deceived by RMS, or agree with his goals, but because sharing | software is something that resonates in the hacker community. But they should realize the best form of sharing means no strings attached. Much of that 'shareware' was public domain. | I remember more than one bit of "shareware" where "sharing" was | donating to their favorite charity, or you could register by emailing | the author the fish disk # and name of a program you had donated. Those were the days. :-) Makes me feel ancient at 30 years old. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 9: 2:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3DB7C37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61008 invoked by uid 100); 27 Feb 2002 17:01:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:01:54 -0600 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick types: > | what makes me think that so much stuff is GPL'ed not because people > | are deceived by RMS, or agree with his goals, but because sharing > | software is something that resonates in the hacker community. > > But they should realize the best form of sharing means no strings > attached. Much of that 'shareware' was public domain. > Yes, but much of that "public domain shareware" had statements in it saying things like "not for commercial use." Some of it had the authors copyright, some didn't. All that really demonstrates is that most of the authors had no inkling about either copyright law or what public domain really meant. I agree that the best form of sharing is "no strings attached", and the only software I've released that wasn't under something similar to the BSD license was because of licensing restrictions that were on the software before I got it. But if we're going to allow people to distribute software under the condition that the recipients not redistribute it at all, then allowing them to distribute software under the conditions that the recipients only redistribute it with source and under the same conditions seems to be very reasonable. In fact, given the choice between the two, I'll take the latter every time. Fortunately there other choices. > Makes me feel ancient at 30 years old. Would it help if I talked about exchanging 9-track tapes of MVS software with my colleagues? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 9:15:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFA6D37B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0329.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.74] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g7fA-0007cb-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:14:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D13E1.FD428BD9@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:14:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > http://www.theregus.com/content/4/24164.html I think they will find that the change to the GPL license was not legal in the first place. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 9:16:58 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A41937B426 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0329.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.74] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g7h1-0002mX-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:16:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:16:04 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger wrote: > I can't say I agree. When you license under the GPL, you enter a contract. The > meaning of this specific contract is pretty well understood, and if you don't > understand it, well, don't use it. You can't just decide one day that you want > to forfeit that contract just because it doesn't suit your needs (or wants) > anymore. You should have thought of that before you used that license. The > BSD license has been an option for a long time, you know. ;) > > I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with > anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 9:19:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2843637B420 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0329.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.74] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g7it-0005pi-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:18:36 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D14C8.FC88886C@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:18:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Benjamin Krueger Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > Basically his idea of 'free software' where proprietary software is all > > but eliminated, and everyone works for fun, not profit, and he gets to > > stand as god over his 'revolution.' > > While some folks might decide that is his personal goal, it isn't the stated > goal of the GPL or GNU Foundation. Neither may be perfect, but lets not mix > facts with pleasure. ;) Read the Unibomber^WGNU Manifesto. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 10:17: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A94BC37B41A for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61658 invoked by uid 100); 27 Feb 2002 18:16:43 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.8842.438366.492284@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:16:42 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Michael Lucas , Matthew Emmerton , Patrik Sundberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: valgrind In-Reply-To: <3C7D18EE.D2ED04A@mindspring.com> References: <20020227151310.GA47084@raquel.radiac.mine.nu> <20020227114239.A63680@blackhelicopters.org> <3C7D18EE.D2ED04A@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat from -current *and* -stable. Bleah.] Terry Lambert types: > This is why FreeBSD lets people use GPL'ed components as an > "after market" item, but does not distribute them: it is in > the ditribution that the clause activates. I could *swear* that I got gcc with my distribution of FreeBSD. Or does this statement only apply to kernel components? http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 10:39:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9558737B499 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g8yu-000ONU-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:39:12 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id D177413040 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:39:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id B026B225C1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:39:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:39:08 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020227183908.GD2129@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 02:52:26PM -0800, Crist J. Clark wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:01:24PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > > > > > I am not sure how much traffic such a list would generate. > > > > > > In terms of new lists, I suggested long ago, that the number of > > > questions on filtering/firewalls/nat and all points east generated on -questions > > > could easily justify it's own mailing list. Since this is clearly > > > one of the most confusing, most ill-understood, and frankly > > > insufficiently documented areas of FreeBSD .. and yet one of it's most > > > important. I have twice suggested to Crist Clark he write a book on it.. > > > I think he told me he was once approached to do so. But sadly no such > > > book exists. There are lots of bits of paper flying around the net with > > > recipes, suggestions, partial explanations etc. But there is no-where > > > a coherent in-depth discussion of it all. > > > > > > > I must be missing your point, since there IS a -security list, which contains > > those items. > > And there are -ipfw and -net for the things Cliff brought up. Ah, but reading the manifesto for those 2 lists show them as discussions of implementation, not of use. Security list also seems to be stated as being for discussions on encryption and generally on damage limitation, not on discussion of preventing in-breakers. So, there is not a list with the express manifesto of *using* firewalls. I changed my mind about the possible need for a performance list btw. May be it is a good idea. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 10:41:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-10.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86EDB37B41C for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:41:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-10.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g90r-0005G0-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:41:13 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 5661713040 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:41:12 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 0ECF7225C1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:41:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:41:09 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new FreeBSD mailing list Message-ID: <20020227184108.GE2129@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7AFCED.ADDE60EE@centtech.com> <20020226093250.A1369@canyon.nothing-going-on.org> <3C7BEF25.C1EEB8AD@centtech.com> <20020226204420.GA2629@raggedclown.net> <3C7BF7A4.E571BEFA@centtech.com> <20020226145226.X52727@blossom.cjclark.org> <3C7CDC9E.D22C940B@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C7CDC9E.D22C940B@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 07:18:22AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Thanks for the info, but I'm not (not sure who did, if anyone) asking for a > firewall mailing list. I am asking about a PERFORMANCE mailing list. Someone > just brought up the fact there weren't any firewall mailing lists, I pointed out > -security, and it has grown in to a new subject. > My fault, sorry. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 10:41:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B1237B41E for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from xena.gsicomp.on.ca ([199.243.128.121]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.23 201-229-121-123-20010418) with ESMTP id <20020227184116.ZTMN25386.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@xena.gsicomp.on.ca>; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:41:16 -0500 Received: from xena.gsicomp.on.ca (xena.gsicomp.on.ca [192.168.0.3]) by xena.gsicomp.on.ca (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g1RITji46146; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:29:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from matt@xena.gsicomp.on.ca) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:29:44 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Emmerton To: Mike Meyer Cc: Terry Lambert , Michael Lucas , Patrik Sundberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: valgrind In-Reply-To: <15485.8842.438366.492284@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > [Moved to -chat from -current *and* -stable. Bleah.] > > Terry Lambert types: > > This is why FreeBSD lets people use GPL'ed components as an > > "after market" item, but does not distribute them: it is in > > the ditribution that the clause activates. > > I could *swear* that I got gcc with my distribution of FreeBSD. Or > does this statement only apply to kernel components? Since gcc is self-contained, it's no a problem. It's when you've got a statically-linked image (an application or a kernel image) that contains both BSD and GPL code that the problems arise. -- Matt Emmerton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 10:59:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-10.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135AF37B417 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:59:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-10.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16g9IL-00077G-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:59:17 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 64D2D13040 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:59:16 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 9B859225C1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:59:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:59:11 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227185911.GF2129@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:00:39PM +0100, Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:44:28AM -0800, Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > > FWIW he has never said you can't make profit selling GPL'ed software, > you can charge as much as you want for it, but I've never seen any > company making money on that, except a few Linux distribution vendors, > which anyway use code created by other people, so that doesn't really > count. > I once got into a discussion on the SuSE linux mailing list about the curiosity value of SuSE who do not license their software (in particular yast, their configuration program) under the GPL. What companies like SuSE are doing is locking you into them by the back-door, you cannot really lock-up a user-base with only GPL software. One of the most peculiar problems with GPL is explaining it's implications to managers. I worked on a project where I implemented a very heavily hacked version of Vixie cron, saving on my estimates several month's of a senior programmers time. Trying to explain that this meant we would have to make the source code available to at least that program to the customer was like trying to talk Klingon to a dead snail. European readers may note that the EC is on the point of legislating for the strengthening of software patents. Follow the bouncing ball from the GNU web page if you can understand European Double-Speak. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 12: 1:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2EE37B417 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16g9JD-00045v-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:00:11 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id E9B2313040 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:00:10 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 07844225C1; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:00:11 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:00:10 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: "FreeBSD Chat @ FreeBSD.org" Subject: Re: Daemon's name Message-ID: <20020227190010.GG2129@raggedclown.net> References: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000901c1bf57$e7f9c3d0$de56579d@india.ti.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:57:58AM +0530, Gautham Ganapathy wrote: > Hi > > Hi does the freebsd daemon have a name, like tux the linux penguin ? > Nigel. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 12: 1:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6703F37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16g9TU-0004Bf-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:10:48 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id A410F13040 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:10:44 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 9575A225C2; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:10:43 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:10:43 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.5 ISO Not consitant. I must press the issue. Message-ID: <20020227191043.GH2129@raggedclown.net> References: <200202261646.LAA01711@alpha.vaxxine.com> <02022612592103.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020226201632.GA2128@raggedclown.net> <02022615420605.00300@proxy.pt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02022615420605.00300@proxy.pt.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 03:42:06PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > [redirected to -chat so this doesn't p*ss anyone off] > > On Tuesday 26 February 2002 15:16, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 12:59:21PM -0500, Bill Moran wrote: > > > On Tuesday 26 February 2002 11:46, Paul C. Boyle wrote: > > > > I admit I am a newbie using FreeBSD. But I enjoy the community very > > > > much. I was using the 4.4 install of FreeBSD for a while, I had a few > > > > buggy things with it like the cdplayer in KDE did not work. Not a big > > > > deal really but I thought practice installing from scratch is good > > > > experience. I got a friend to download and burn the 4.5 iso's for me > > > > since I only have a 33.6 dial up. My problem starts with no KDE > > > > internet utilities for dialup on the disks. I want to install and get > > > > up and running quickly not have to find and learn an new dialup tool. > > > > Man was I pissed. All of the other KDE packages were not on the cd's as > > > > well. > > > > This looks very bad for FreeBSD. > > > > > > No it doesn't. A very small percentage of people are going to be as > > > confused and upset as you are, and they are not the target audience for > > > FreeBSD. FreeBSD is targeted mainly at sysadmins and computer geeks, not > > > so much at the average computer user. > > > > I do not want to get embroiled in this argument, but the statement above > > is presumptious and in my view incorrect...and way behind the times. > > I simply disagree with you. Well I guess we have no statistics to go on. > > > There have been a number of mails on this issue, which means it is one > > that should be taken seriously. > > Agreed. > > > I have no personal axe to grind on what > > should or should not be on the ISO images, > > I do, and you may be surprised when you find out what edge of the axe I'm > grinding ... > > > but to proclaim as gospel > > who the target audience is strikes me as just a tad missing the > > changing times we live in. > > First off, I don't presume to be proclaiming gospel. I'm simply speaking from > experience. Yes but experience can change with time, what was true yesterday may not be true today. The audience for FreeBSD is not getting smaller, it is getting larger. > > > Besides which, the "geeks" and "sysadmins" who apparently are the only > > ones deemed to have ISO images made for them all probably have high > > speed cable or ADSL lines, in which case the CD issue is a non-issue for > > them. > > True. > > > I suggest also that this remark contradicts the statements about FreeBSD > > made on both it's web sites and on the packaged distributions that are > > for sale. > > What exact statements are you speaking of? Well there are links and lists of desktop apps. > > > This is not to suggest that FreeBSD needs or should follow the > > glitzy path that Linux is on, far from it. It is to say that FreeBSD is > > perfectly capable of being used as *both* a home-desktop system as running > > some of the biggest FTP sites in the world. > > 100% agreed. > Fact is, I believe the CD distros should be built in a slightly different fashion. How > about: > A CD iso for desktop configs, containing stuff that is typically needed for desktops > A CD iso for server configs, containing stuff typically needed for server setups > Additional CDs containing the rest of the "stuff" that is normally on CDs 2-4 > > It wasn't that long ago that a project called EasyBSD started and was going to make > the first CD described above. I was part of that group because I felt such an ISO > would be of great benefit to the FreeBSD project. > Unfortunatly, I didn't have much time to work on things, and neither did anyone else > who had initially started the project. There definately are better ways that things could > be done, but what is really needed is people to DO those things. > Ok. Well your feeling on this was not so very clear from the answer you gave on -questions, and also that you personally feel it would be a good thing to have such a CD image available. Yes. Someone has to DO it. I will give it some thought..:) Actually my personal interests lie elsewhere, for example I regard the whole init/rc implementation used in FreeBSD as way past it's sell-by date and would like to see that re-thought out..but that is another topic. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 12:16:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA1C937B421 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0139.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.139] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gAV2-0001Ow-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:16:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D3E69.C791AAEE@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:15:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Michael Lucas , Matthew Emmerton , Patrik Sundberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: valgrind References: <20020227151310.GA47084@raquel.radiac.mine.nu> <20020227114239.A63680@blackhelicopters.org> <3C7D18EE.D2ED04A@mindspring.com> <15485.8842.438366.492284@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > [Moved to -chat from -current *and* -stable. Bleah.] > Terry Lambert types: > > This is why FreeBSD lets people use GPL'ed components as an > > "after market" item, but does not distribute them: it is in > > the ditribution that the clause activates. > > I could *swear* that I got gcc with my distribution of FreeBSD. Or > does this statement only apply to kernel components? It only applies to code with one license linked to code with a different license. So yes, it applies to the kernel, and no, it doesn't apply to distribution of GCC and other GPL'ed tools whose output is not covered by the GPL (or some other immiscible license) merely because it originated with tools of a particular license. If you examine the history of Bison, you will see that the license on the skeleton code was GPL, but that this was at one time changed so that people would actually use Bison, instead of simply ignoring it. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 13: 5:12 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B75237B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E03BD31; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22139; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:05:02 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1RL73K08495; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: j mckitrick Cc: Mike Meyer , Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 13:07:03 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: <3mg03mtz0o.03m@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > | what makes me think that so much stuff is GPL'ed not because people > | are deceived by RMS, or agree with his goals, but because sharing > | software is something that resonates in the hacker community. > > > But they should realize the best form of sharing means no strings > attached. Much of that 'shareware' was public domain. > And it is too often missed that much current "sharing" (a term inappropriately used for its promotional value) is really a form of commercial trading in valuable intellectual property rights -- the essential reason for the GPL: A barter of copyrights to allow you to use my software in published only if I (and others) may use yours in published derivatives. From US copyright law (17 USC 101): Financial Gain: The term "financial gain" includes receipt, or expectation of receipt, of anything of value, including the receipt of other copyrighted works. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 13:23: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A6E37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1998EBD36; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28236; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:23:03 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1RLP7s08505; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Benjamin Krueger , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 13:25:06 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. I've read it both ways. From http://www.duhaime.org/dict-c.htm (the site supposedly belongs to a lawyer) Consideration is not required in contracts made in civil law systems and many common law states have adopted laws which remove consideration as a prerequisite of a valid contract. Others have said that judges consider the most inconsiderable things to be consideration. And there's always consideration involved whenever anyone bothers to threaten suit over GPL infringement. (See my previous msg in this thread.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 14:11:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A14A37B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 63898 invoked by uid 100); 27 Feb 2002 22:11:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.22930.612912.151910@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:11:30 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Mike Meyer , Michael Lucas , Matthew Emmerton , Patrik Sundberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: valgrind In-Reply-To: <3C7D3E69.C791AAEE@mindspring.com> References: <20020227151310.GA47084@raquel.radiac.mine.nu> <20020227114239.A63680@blackhelicopters.org> <3C7D18EE.D2ED04A@mindspring.com> <15485.8842.438366.492284@guru.mired.org> <3C7D3E69.C791AAEE@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > If you examine the history of Bison, you will see that the > license on the skeleton code was GPL, but that this was at > one time changed so that people would actually use Bison, > instead of simply ignoring it. Oh, I'm well aware of that. My port of unix|stat to the Amiga was never distributed because the only working yacc for AmigaDOS was Bison, and neither Perlman nor RMS would budge on their requirements. FWIW, that software is available for freebsd in the math/unixstat port. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 15:43:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [216.240.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9FE37B41F for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cfcl.com (cpe-24-221-169-54.ca.sprintbbd.net [24.221.169.54]) by idiom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA46051 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.254.205] (cerberus [192.168.254.205]) by cfcl.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g1RNiOG35801 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:44:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rdm@cfcl.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:41:41 -0800 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Rich Morin Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:16 AM -0800 2/27/02, Terry Lambert wrote: >Benjamin Krueger wrote: >> I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with >> anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) > >A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. -r -- email: rdm@cfcl.com; phone: +1 650-873-7841 http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - my home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta - The FreeBSD Browser, Meta Project, etc. http://www.ptf.com/dossier - Prime Time Freeware's DOSSIER series http://www.ptf.com/tdc - Prime Time Freeware's Darwin Collection To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 16: 9:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 43B5737B405 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 73053 invoked by uid 100); 28 Feb 2002 00:09:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.30010.11477.928616@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:09:30 -0600 To: Rich Morin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rich Morin types: > At 9:16 AM -0800 2/27/02, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Benjamin Krueger wrote: > >> I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with > >> anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) > >A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. > Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it > is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright > holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. So should we root for the GPL to be found void as a contract, meaning that users don't have to abide by it? After all, that would provide a precedent for making all software licenses invalid as contracts. I wonder which side of this one MicroSoft would take. It would wound UCITA, possibly mortally. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 16:57:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4721D37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0187.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.187] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gEse-0000Xz-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:57:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:55:48 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rich Morin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rich Morin wrote: > At 9:16 AM -0800 2/27/02, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Benjamin Krueger wrote: > >> I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with > >> anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) > > > >A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. > > Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it > is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright > holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. The requirement that I distribute my sources as a result of linking with GPL'ed code is a consequence of the license, and the license _is_ a contract. The UCSD P-code system was licensed under a Berkeley style license, and rights to use it were revoked from all but Apple Computer, Inc., who had negotiated a non-revokable license, in return for consideration. Similarly, the revocation of the Net/2 code release by UCB following the settlement agreement with USL as a result of the USL vs. UCB lawsuit was only possible because the licensees had not provided consideration in return for their license. Please consult "Black's Law" for more information on Torte law in the U.S.. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 17:10:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48B737B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0187.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.187] helo=mindspring.com) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gF5Z-0002MT-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:10:29 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7D8332.78BCA304@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:09:06 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it > > is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright > > holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. > > The requirement that I distribute my sources as a result > of linking with GPL'ed code is a consequence of the > license, and the license _is_ a contract. PS: Many GPL'ed projects require that you execute an assignment of rights for contributed code, so that they can change the license, if they so choose. Among these projects is MySQL, *all* FSF projects (gcc, gdb, etc.), Kaffe, and so on. The "consideration" in this case is specifically stated in the assignments of rights agreement to be for the review of any contributed code by the project. In other words, they are giving consideration, and that payment takes the form of them examining the contributed code. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 18: 2: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3938C37B41B for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164] helo=access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16gFtH-000CWW-0W for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:01:52 +0000 Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g1S21kg23197 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:01:46 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1S20PE65533 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:00:25 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 02:00:25 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1015261315.e80d24@mired.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:01:54AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 1782 207338 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:01:54AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Makes me feel ancient at 30 years old. > Would it help if I talked about exchanging 9-track tapes of MVS > software with my colleagues? I'll up the ante - 7 track tapes (8-), or the DECUS library paper tapes. -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 18:10:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from primus.vsservices.com (primus.vsservices.com [63.66.136.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E75237B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:10:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from prime.vsservices.com (conr-adsl-dhcp-26-38.txucom.net [209.34.26.38]) by primus.vsservices.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g1S2AHk46417; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:10:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from gclarkii@vsservices.com) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:10:20 -0600 From: GB Clark To: "Mike Meyer" Cc: rdm@cfcl.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-Id: <20020227201020.4cb07c8f.gclarkii@vsservices.com> In-Reply-To: <15485.30010.11477.928616@guru.mired.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <15485.30010.11477.928616@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.6.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-unknown-freebsd4.4) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:09:30 -0600 "Mike Meyer" wrote: > Rich Morin types: > > At 9:16 AM -0800 2/27/02, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Benjamin Krueger wrote: > > >> I wish I could just forfeit any contracts I didn't want to deal with > > >> anymore... I might be richer for it. ;) > > >A contract is only valid if there is consideration exchanged. > > Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it > > is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright > > holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. > > So should we root for the GPL to be found void as a contract, meaning > that users don't have to abide by it? After all, that would provide a > precedent for making all software licenses invalid as contracts. I > wonder which side of this one MicroSoft would take. It would wound > UCITA, possibly mortally. Thats the LAST thing you want! If the GPL is found invalid, all code presently under it reverts to standard copyright and you would have NO rights to do anything with it! We would have to replace ALL GPL software in the tree, hard but not impossible. I think Linux would die... > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. GB -- GB Clark II | Roaming FreeBSD Admin gclarkii@VSServices.COM | General Geek CTHULU for President - Why choose the lesser of two evils? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 18:12:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82DF37B420 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52EE2BD71; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:12:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA30158; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:12:12 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1S2EDd08850; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:14:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.5 ISO Not consitant. I must press the issue. References: <200202261646.LAA01711@alpha.vaxxine.com> <02022612592103.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020226201632.GA2128@raggedclown.net> <02022615420605.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020227191043.GH2129@raggedclown.net> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 18:14:12 -0800 In-Reply-To: <20020227191043.GH2129@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: Lines: 17 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson writes: > Actually my personal interests lie elsewhere, for example I regard the > whole init/rc implementation used in FreeBSD as way past it's sell-by > date and would like to see that re-thought out..but that is another > topic. In case you're not aware of the rumors "that FreeBSD is going to integrate the NetBSD init dependency rc system": http://slashdot.org/bsd/02/01/29/1913220.shtml which also says: "From the JKH interview: [23:39] I think the NetBSD startup stuff, for example, is pretty cool [23:39] we're just trying to find enough bodies to finish that [23:39] (the merge)" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 19: 9:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EB0437B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 75609 invoked by uid 100); 28 Feb 2002 03:08:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:08:58 -0600 To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> References: <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba types: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:01:54AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Makes me feel ancient at 30 years old. > > Would it help if I talked about exchanging 9-track tapes of MVS > > software with my colleagues? > I'll up the ante - 7 track tapes (8-), or the DECUS library paper tapes. Hey, I remember those. I'm still trying to find someone who's got a working Dectape (the open real kind, not the later ones) so I can see if there's anything interesting on the last backup of my v6 directory. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 19:14:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF68237B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:14:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org ([12.234.91.48]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020228031415.FTSP2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@blossom.cjclark.org>; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 03:14:15 +0000 Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g1S3EBg67234; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:14:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:14:11 -0800 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020227191410.D66092@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> <3C7D8332.78BCA304@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3C7D8332.78BCA304@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:09:06PM -0800 X-URL: http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:09:06PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] > Among these projects is MySQL, *all* FSF projects (gcc, > gdb, etc.), Kaffe, and so on. IIRC, the point was belabored in the original article to start this thread that MySQL is not FSF code. The FSF is only involved to provide "expert testimony." -- Crist J. Clark | cjclark@alum.mit.edu | cjclark@jhu.edu http://people.freebsd.org/~cjc/ | cjc@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 19:19:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F337937B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90971BD55; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16347; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:19:52 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1S3Lsp08868; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Rich Morin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 19:21:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rich Morin writes: > Beeeeeeeeeeep! The GPL does not rest on contract law. Rather, it > is based on Copyright and the unilateral ability of the copyright > holder to control what is done with the copyrighted material. The GPL is a contract in which the licensor agrees to license his copyrights and the licensee agrees to publish his derivatives, not sue the licensee for liable, and etc. The GPL says: "Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; ...". That's not true (see the warrantee and liability clauses for just two pieces of evidence), but even if it was true, this only means that the things being licensed are copyrights and nothing else. (Many licenses cover things like the right to execute and the actual copies.) But it also says "We ... offer you this license ...", and "nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License." and "by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so" and, finally, it's well known that it requires you to license back your valuable intellectual property in any derivative and not sue the licensee (also a valuable consideration). There you have Offer, Indication of Acceptance, and Consideration (if that's even necessary); all that's needed to qualify it as a contract. And in any case, when a licensee (even, and most importantly, without a contract) has a vested interest in the thing licensed (eg, he has built it into his system), the copyright owner looses his unilateral ability to control his material to the licensee to some degree. Eg, the license may not be withdrawn without compensation of the licensee. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 19:26:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A3AC37B41A for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 76104 invoked by uid 100); 28 Feb 2002 03:26:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.41806.266171.794325@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:26:06 -0600 To: GB Clark Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020227201020.4cb07c8f.gclarkii@vsservices.com> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <15485.30010.11477.928616@guru.mired.org> <20020227201020.4cb07c8f.gclarkii@vsservices.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org GB Clark types: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:09:30 -0600 > "Mike Meyer" wrote: > > So should we root for the GPL to be found void as a contract, meaning > > that users don't have to abide by it? After all, that would provide a > > precedent for making all software licenses invalid as contracts. I > > wonder which side of this one MicroSoft would take. It would wound > > UCITA, possibly mortally. > Thats the LAST thing you want! If the GPL is found invalid, all code presently under it > reverts to standard copyright and you would have NO rights to do anything with it! No, you would have all rights provided as fair use and via the doctrine of first sale. Creating a translation for your own private use is perfectly legal. You could include excerpts of GPL'ed code into your own code without having to worry about it being infected by the GPL. You could be sued for copyright violation, but not be forced to open-source your own code, because that's not one of the legal remedies available for copyright violation. IANAL, and I haven't checked in a long time, but last time I checked, unless something was actually registered with the appropriate US agency, the only remedy allowed for copyright violation was damages. For books and the like, that means the profit on every copy illegally sold. But for software that you're willing to let other people have for nothing - well, clearly you haven't suffered any damages. > We would have to replace ALL GPL software in the tree, hard but not > impossible. I think Linux would die... The former has been advocated by others. It's not clear the latter would be a bad thing. I think more likely would be that the licensing would change in some way. The interesting things is what would happen to *commercial* software. You now have a precedent for the mutant offspring of copyright and contract law that most software comes bundled being unenforceable. This clearly makes UCITA useless anywhere except the smallest room in the house. It has interesting implications on the SSSCA as well. Basically, the entire software-as-a-commodity industry is based on being able to use copyright law to enforce a contract on the end user. The commercial content industry - basically, publishers of things you play that are now becoming available digitally - is using that as a basis for protecting their revenue streams, and trying to get laws passed that violate a number of amendments in order to keep people from talking - or even looking into - violating those licenses. Yanking the foundation out from underneath this structure makes it very shaky. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 20:47:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192A937B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD57BD34; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08351; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:47:51 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g1S4nqB08902; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:49:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 27 Feb 2002 20:49:52 -0800 In-Reply-To: <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Lines: 47 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > The UCSD P-code system was licensed under a Berkeley style > license, and rights to use it were revoked from all but > Apple Computer, Inc., who had negotiated a non-revokable > license, in return for consideration. > > Similarly, the revocation of the Net/2 code release by UCB > following the settlement agreement with USL as a result of > the USL vs. UCB lawsuit was only possible because the > licensees had not provided consideration in return for > their license. Such outcomes are often more a result of a party being unwilling or unable to pay for better lawyering than another party, and not a result of an unsupportable legal position. (Interesting cases, tho. Thanks.) But many will agree, or at least greatly fear that others will agree, that BSD type licenses are not the basis of a contract. That was one reason the nice Python license was replaced by a monstrosity (which still lacks obvious consideration). It does mention an "ACCEPT button". > Please consult "Black's Law" for more information on Torte > law in the U.S.. Well, there's a law on almost every thing else, why not on "a kind of rich layer cake made with many eggs and little flour and usually containing chopped nuts"? Ya learn somethin' every day. Unless that was a typo for Tort Law, law about "Any wrongful act, damage, or injury done willfully, negligently, or in circumstances involving strict liability, but not involving breach of contract, for which a civil suit can be brought" (ie, under Contract Law). I think the concept is that you'll damage me if you withdraw your non-contract license from me after I've become dependent on it and/or invested lots of money or effort based on having the license. Black's costs $. How about this from "Bouvier 1856"? A bare license ... being without consideration, may be revoked at pleasure, as long as it remains executory; 39 Hen. VI. M. 12, page 7; but when carried into effect, either partially or altogether, it can only be rescinded, if in its nature it will admit of revocation, by placing the other side in the same situation in which he stood before he entered on its execution. 8 East, R. 308; Palm. 71; S. C. Poph. 151; S. C. 2 Roll. Rep. 143, 152." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 20:50:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.zer0.org (klapaucius.zer0.org [204.152.186.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A28D037B400; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail1.zer0.org (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 404E4239A0D; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:50:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:50:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Mit Rowe Cc: Buliwyf McGraw , freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Changing Passwords through the web Message-ID: <20020228045028.GC55856@klapaucius.zer0.org> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, gsutter@zer0.org Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/e2eDi0V/xtL+Mc8" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Organization: Zer0 X-Purpose: For great justice! Mail-Copies-To: poster Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Please-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-For-The-Love-of-Peace-Please-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Screw-You-If-You-Don't-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --/e2eDi0V/xtL+Mc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ moving to -chat; please followup there ] On 2002-02-27 20:15 -0500, Mit Rowe wrote: > a poppasswd interface is pretty easy... the IMP port uses one for an exam= ple > implementation. Are there any general-purpose web-based password management systems? I'm looking for one that can take a user-input password (over https) and keep it in an encrypted file/database, so the administrator can at any time export: - DES crypted version of password - MD5 crypted version of password - SHA crypted version of password - unencrypted password (optional) - etc. Greg --=20 Gregory S. Sutter Good judgement comes from experience. mailto:gsutter@zer0.org Experience comes from bad judgement. http://www.zer0.org/~gsutter/ hkp://wwwkeys.pgp.net/0x845DFEDD --/e2eDi0V/xtL+Mc8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: '' iD8DBQE8fbcUIBUx1YRd/t0RAt4fAJ4iKE30KprkowDAWDwjLtdptA7t/ACfdN4+ zk6CXLL4L0276adIC7bK5HY= =ozOg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/e2eDi0V/xtL+Mc8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 22:47:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-10.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1EB37B400 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 22:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-10.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gKLM-0000Ry-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:47:08 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 0BEC913040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:47:05 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 9DDAF225C2; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:47:00 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:47:00 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 4.5 ISO Not consitant. I must press the issue. Message-ID: <20020228064700.GH3311@raggedclown.net> References: <200202261646.LAA01711@alpha.vaxxine.com> <02022612592103.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020226201632.GA2128@raggedclown.net> <02022615420605.00300@proxy.pt.com> <20020227191043.GH2129@raggedclown.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 06:14:12PM -0800, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > Cliff Sarginson writes: > > > Actually my personal interests lie elsewhere, for example I regard the > > whole init/rc implementation used in FreeBSD as way past it's sell-by > > date and would like to see that re-thought out..but that is another > > topic. > > In case you're not aware of the rumors "that FreeBSD is going to > integrate the NetBSD init dependency rc system": > > http://slashdot.org/bsd/02/01/29/1913220.shtml > > which also says: "From the JKH interview: > > [23:39] I think the NetBSD startup stuff, for example, is pretty cool > [23:39] we're just trying to find enough bodies to finish that > [23:39] (the merge)" I just became aware of that .. and expressed an interest, I gather it is in a doldrum at the moment though. I have been sent a pointer to a discussion list on it which I shall look into later. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 23: 2:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-10.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0855C37B405 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-10.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gKaN-0003Et-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:02:39 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id B899313040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:02:37 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 8FBE2225C1; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:02:37 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:02:37 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:08:58PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Adrian Wontroba types: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 11:01:54AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > > Makes me feel ancient at 30 years old. > > > Would it help if I talked about exchanging 9-track tapes of MVS > > > software with my colleagues? > > I'll up the ante - 7 track tapes (8-), or the DECUS library paper tapes. > > Hey, I remember those. I'm still trying to find someone who's got a > working Dectape (the open real kind, not the later ones) so I can see > if there's anything interesting on the last backup of my v6 directory. > Wow, memory lane time ? I learnt "C" on a "C" compiler found on a Decus tape for RSX11M. It had no code tables for floating point operations ... but apart from that... What was the topic again :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 27 23:16:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5166D37B402 for ; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10646 invoked by uid 100); 28 Feb 2002 07:16:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15485.55616.947697.70199@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:16:16 -0600 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson types: > Wow, memory lane time ? > I learnt "C" on a "C" compiler found on a Decus tape for RSX11M. > It had no code tables for floating point operations ... but apart from > that... Wimp. I learned C reading the v6 kernel, and using the photo7 C compiler just to make life interesting. > What was the topic again :) This is -chat, so .... http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 0:15:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net (deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8147E37B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:15:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50] helo=avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by deathrow.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gLOU-0005NN-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:54:26 -0800 Received: from pool0203.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.203] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gLOQ-0004y8-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:54:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7DE19C.1A3CE594@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:51:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Gary W. Swearingen" wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: > But many will agree, or at least greatly fear that others will agree, > that BSD type licenses are not the basis of a contract. That was one > reason the nice Python license was replaced by a monstrosity (which > still lacks obvious consideration). It does mention an "ACCEPT button". You have to wonder if the "hold harmless" constitutes consideration... [ Torte/tort ] > Well, there's a law on almost every thing else, why not on "a kind of > rich layer cake made with many eggs and little flour and usually > containing chopped nuts"? Ya learn somethin' every day. Yeah, yeah, I'm dyslexic and have problems with silent "e" when I'm typing fast. You should see it when I use whole wrong words. > Unless that was a typo for Tort Law, law about "Any wrongful act, > damage, or injury done willfully, negligently, or in circumstances > involving strict liability, but not involving breach of contract, for > which a civil suit can be brought" (ie, under Contract Law). > > I think the concept is that you'll damage me if you withdraw your > non-contract license from me after I've become dependent on it and/or > invested lots of money or effort based on having the license. I love that Intellectual Property is being treated more and more as if it were real property. Gives people a nice chance to establish a proscriptive lien through adverse use by copying a CDROM, and the company not coming to their home and enforcing against the adverse use, after which the people have "established an interest". Like when I park in front of your house for 20 years, and you have to let me park in front of your house forever after. > Black's costs $. How about this from "Bouvier 1856"? > > A bare license ... being without consideration, may be revoked at > pleasure, as long as it remains executory; 39 Hen. VI. M. 12, page > 7; but when carried into effect, either partially or altogether, it > can only be rescinded, if in its nature it will admit of revocation, > by placing the other side in the same situation in which he stood > before he entered on its execution. 8 East, R. 308; Palm. 71; > S. C. Poph. 151; S. C. 2 Roll. Rep. 143, 152." This is interesting. This could be interpreted as saying that revocation was not possible after the preparation of derivative works. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 0:35:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from badboy.mail.pas.earthlink.net (badboy.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1671F37B400; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net ([207.217.120.50] helo=avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) by badboy.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gLDF-00049R-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:42:49 -0800 Received: from pool0203.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.203] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gLCr-0006Lb-00; Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:42:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7DDED0.3350488D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:40:00 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Crist J. Clark" Cc: Rich Morin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <3C7D1454.6957B09E@mindspring.com> <3C7D8014.A5502797@mindspring.com> <3C7D8332.78BCA304@mindspring.com> <20020227191410.D66092@blossom.cjclark.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 05:09:06PM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote: > [snip] > > > Among these projects is MySQL, *all* FSF projects (gcc, > > gdb, etc.), Kaffe, and so on. > > IIRC, the point was belabored in the original article to start this > thread that MySQL is not FSF code. The FSF is only involved to provide > "expert testimony." I think you missed the comma after "MySQL"? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 6:22:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6732337B400 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16gRSO-000J6D-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:22:52 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id F30F113040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:51 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id EE681225C1; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:49 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:22:49 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228142249.GB1805@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> <15485.55616.947697.70199@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15485.55616.947697.70199@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 01:16:16AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Cliff Sarginson types: > > Wow, memory lane time ? > > I learnt "C" on a "C" compiler found on a Decus tape for RSX11M. > > It had no code tables for floating point operations ... but apart from > > that... > > Wimp. I learned C reading the v6 kernel, and using the photo7 C > compiler just to make life interesting. > On the other hand the first language I learnt was Fortran 4 on a CDC 7600, at the time the most powerful computer in the world (designed by Mr Cray no less, before he left CDC to go on to .. well you know those big things that don't have operating systems). It was there that I learnt all I know about hardware engineering. The 7600 was built on banks of removable "modules"..when a faulty one was found it was extracted with a special tool and replaced. To find a faulty module when the diagnostics were vague the engineers resorted to a technique known as "shock testing". This involved hitting the module with a small hammer to see if the diagnostic information would become more helpful. I have often thought of applying this technique to the various bosses I have had in my life to see if I can get them to make sense. Unfortunately I discovered there was usually no module to extract. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 6:43:10 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01D5437B405 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:43:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15653 invoked by uid 100); 28 Feb 2002 14:43:05 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15486.16889.146502.143165@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:43:05 -0600 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020228142249.GB1805@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> <15485.55616.947697.70199@guru.mired.org> <20020228142249.GB1805@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson types: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 01:16:16AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Wimp. I learned C reading the v6 kernel, and using the photo7 C > > compiler just to make life interesting. > On the other hand the first language I learnt was Fortran 4 on a CDC > 7600, at the time the most powerful computer in the world (designed by > Mr Cray no less, before he left CDC to go on to .. well you know > those big things that don't have operating systems) Hey, our big thing from that company had an operating system. It was called UniCOS, and looked like Unix System III, IIRC. > It was there that I learnt all I know about hardware > engineering. The 7600 was built on banks of removable > "modules"..when a faulty one was found it was extracted with a > special tool and replaced. To find a faulty module when the > diagnostics were vague the engineers resorted to a technique known > as "shock testing". This involved hitting the module with a small > hammer to see if the diagnostic information would become more > helpful. Ah, I learned this as the "magic wand" test for intermittent faults. You wave the magic want vigorously through the component in question, and the fault generally stopped being intermittent. > I have often thought of applying this technique to the various bosses I > have had in my life to see if I can get them to make sense. > Unfortunately I discovered there was usually no module to extract. Not a problem for the magic want test - but it's still not recommended. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 6:56:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C2F37B41E for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:56:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gRzI-0003ik-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:56:52 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 044DA13040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:56:52 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 43BC6225C3; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:56:47 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:56:47 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228145647.GB2061@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020228070237.GI3311@raggedclown.net> <15485.55616.947697.70199@guru.mired.org> <20020228142249.GB1805@raggedclown.net> <15486.16889.146502.143165@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15486.16889.146502.143165@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 08:43:05AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Cliff Sarginson types: > > On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 01:16:16AM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Wimp. I learned C reading the v6 kernel, and using the photo7 C > > > compiler just to make life interesting. > > On the other hand the first language I learnt was Fortran 4 on a CDC > > 7600, at the time the most powerful computer in the world (designed by > > Mr Cray no less, before he left CDC to go on to .. well you know > > those big things that don't have operating systems) > > Hey, our big thing from that company had an operating system. It was > called UniCOS, and looked like Unix System III, IIRC. > Ah yes, you are right. But I thought there was a school of thought in the massively parallel processor world that you don't need an O/S, and that languages like Occam avoid the need for one (I am reaching the penumbra of my knowledge here I will be the first to admit). > > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 7:16:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8B237B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:16:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 16gSIN-0005Pr-00; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:16:35 +0000 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.11.6/8.11.1) id g1SFGZY75127; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:16:35 GMT (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:16:35 +0000 From: j mckitrick To: Benjamin Krueger , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228151635.A74693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net>; from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 03:00:39PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *16gSIN-0005Pr-00*3UWN1szJf4g* (Manchester Computing, University of Manchester) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | FWIW he has never said you can't make profit selling GPL'ed software, | you can charge as much as you want for it, but I've never seen any | company making money on that, except a few Linux distribution vendors, | which anyway use code created by other people, so that doesn't really | count. I've been racking my brain for an example of something that technically *could* be done but for practical reasons *isn't* done in business. I can't think of any, but if I do, I'll post it. Maybe politics would be better, like in totalitarian countries where they say 'Of course any other party is free to run for office' but no one does, or has any chance of winning. RMS doesn't have to say you can't sell software, but he's essentially made it all but impossible from a business point of view. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 7:47: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9334B37B41C for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gSll-0006BX-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:46:57 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 443B513040 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:46:57 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 23478225C4; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:46:53 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:46:53 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court Message-ID: <20020228154653.GA2699@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227122820.A64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227142005.A16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020227132417.B64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227052928.L12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227150039.B16555@energyhq.homeip.net> <20020228151635.A74693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020228151635.A74693@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 03:16:35PM +0000, j mckitrick wrote: > | FWIW he has never said you can't make profit selling GPL'ed software, > | you can charge as much as you want for it, but I've never seen any > | company making money on that, except a few Linux distribution vendors, > | which anyway use code created by other people, so that doesn't really > | count. > > I've been racking my brain for an example of something that technically > *could* be done but for practical reasons *isn't* done in business. I > can't think of any, but if I do, I'll post it. Maybe politics would be > better, like in totalitarian countries where they say 'Of course any > other party is free to run for office' but no one does, or has any > chance of winning. > > RMS doesn't have to say you can't sell software, but he's essentially > made it all but impossible from a business point of view. > Mmm. I believe "Smoothwall" have solved this conundrum, I am not exactly sure how they have done it, but they release a "GPL" version of their firewall for free, but also have home and commercial versions (which I gather they make quite a good living out of). I believe the guy who runs it is or has been in long discussions with FSF about this and seems to have resolved any issues. The firewall is based on a very stripped version of Redhat using ipchains, squid etc...plus a web management interface. There used to be (maybe still is) a link from GNU to some outfit trying to start a commercial company based on GPL software. I joined the list for a while, just as a lurker. I would say 90% of the mail I read concerned discussions about how much everyone should get paid, whether the programmers should get paid the same as the salesmen, that kind of thing. I didn't see anything about *what* they would sell. It apparently had the FSF's blessing though. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 14:56:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDC4D37B435 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g1SMtn801961 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:55:49 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:55:34 +0100 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: Recovering Lotus Notes e-mail archive? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, I know that this is a somewhat strange question to ask on this list, but I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with Lotus Notes? It seems that my wife has been religiously archiving off her old mail, but what she didn't know was that when the archive database was created, it was given an expiration date. That date has now passed, and all the archived data appears to be gone. So far as we can tell, the data is actually still there (the database file is still 955MB in size and hasn't gone down in size), it's just that Notes refuses to show it. Is there any way you know of to recover this data, and then copy it to another database that doesn't have an expiration date? I've advised her that the first thing to do is to copy the database file to a backup, and make sure that backup is secure. Unfortunately, the database file has been accessed multiple times since she first discovered the problem, but so far as I know, no further messages have been "deleted", and the database certainly hasn't been compacted. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 15:38:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC5437B41B for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0128.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.42.128] helo=mindspring.com) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16ga81-0004Ao-00; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:38:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7EBF61.1452B32@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:38:09 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Recovering Lotus Notes e-mail archive? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > So far as we can tell, the data is actually still there (the > database file is still 955MB in size and hasn't gone down in size), > it's just that Notes refuses to show it. Is there any way you know > of to recover this data, and then copy it to another database that > doesn't have an expiration date? Well, the obvious might work: 1) Change the date on the machine so it's no longer past the expiration date 2) Ask Lotus; it's probably a FAQ on their web site -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 16:47:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A43B37B41A for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from attbi.com ([12.254.218.32]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020301004724.IGUJ2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@attbi.com>; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:47:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3C7ECF99.D583D5CB@attbi.com> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:47:22 -0700 From: Joe Warner Organization: nunyabiz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.2 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Recovering Lotus Notes e-mail archive? References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B6F5C8441930C7B897104E80" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --------------B6F5C8441930C7B897104E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad, If you give me a little time, I can run your problem by our Lotus Notes administrator where I work and have an answer or possible solution for you tomorrow. Thanks Joe Brad Knowles wrote: > Folks, > > I know that this is a somewhat strange question to ask on this > list, but I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with Lotus Notes? > > It seems that my wife has been religiously archiving off her old > mail, but what she didn't know was that when the archive database was > created, it was given an expiration date. That date has now passed, > and all the archived data appears to be gone. > > So far as we can tell, the data is actually still there (the > database file is still 955MB in size and hasn't gone down in size), > it's just that Notes refuses to show it. Is there any way you know > of to recover this data, and then copy it to another database that > doesn't have an expiration date? > > I've advised her that the first thing to do is to copy the > database file to a backup, and make sure that backup is secure. > Unfortunately, the database file has been accessed multiple times > since she first discovered the problem, but so far as I know, no > further messages have been "deleted", and the database certainly > hasn't been compacted. > > Thanks! > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook > page at and see how much fun you can have. > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Joe Warner Daemon News Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com --------------B6F5C8441930C7B897104E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad,

If you give me a little time, I can run your problem by our
Lotus Notes administrator where I work and have an answer
or possible solution for you tomorrow.

Thanks

Joe
 
 
 
 

Brad Knowles wrote:

Folks,

        I know that this is a somewhat strange question to ask on this
list, but I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with Lotus Notes?

        It seems that my wife has been religiously archiving off her old
mail, but what she didn't know was that when the archive database was
created, it was given an expiration date.  That date has now passed,
and all the archived data appears to be gone.

        So far as we can tell, the data is actually still there (the
database file is still 955MB in size and hasn't gone down in size),
it's just that Notes refuses to show it.  Is there any way you know
of to recover this data, and then copy it to another database that
doesn't have an expiration date?

        I've advised her that the first thing to do is to copy the
database file to a backup, and make sure that backup is secure.
Unfortunately, the database file has been accessed multiple times
since she first discovered the problem, but so far as I know, no
further messages have been "deleted", and the database certainly
hasn't been compacted.

        Thanks!

--
Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>

Do you hate Microsoft?  Do you hate Outlook?  Then visit the Anti-Outlook
page at <http://www.rodos.net/outlook/> and see how much fun you can have.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
     -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message

-- 
Joe Warner
Daemon News
Daemon News E-Zine http://www.daemonnews.org
Print Magazine http://magazine.daemonnews.org/
BSDMall http://www.bsdmall.com
  --------------B6F5C8441930C7B897104E80-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 17:16:49 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3443F37B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g211Gc809681; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 02:16:39 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C7EBF61.1452B32@mindspring.com> References: <3C7EBF61.1452B32@mindspring.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 02:15:20 +0100 To: Terry Lambert , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Recovering Lotus Notes e-mail archive? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:38 PM -0800 2002/02/28, Terry Lambert wrote: > Well, the obvious might work: > > 1) Change the date on the machine so it's no longer > past the expiration date I've recommended that as one thing to try, once the database file is copied and secured. > 2) Ask Lotus; it's probably a FAQ on their web site I've gone through the IBM/Lotus web site seven ways from Sunday, and although I've found some pages that have some partially relevant material, there doesn't seem to be anything that directly addresses this issue. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 17:16:51 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FCF37B405 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.18] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g211Ge809715; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 02:16:40 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C7ECF99.D583D5CB@attbi.com> References: <3C7ECF99.D583D5CB@attbi.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 02:16:03 +0100 To: Joe Warner , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Recovering Lotus Notes e-mail archive? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 5:47 PM -0700 2002/02/28, Joe Warner wrote: > If you give me a little time, I can run your problem by our > Lotus Notes administrator where I work and have an answer > or possible solution for you tomorrow. That would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 19:31:32 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C4637B405 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 19:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA50724; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:31:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:31:24 -0600 (CST) From: Chris Dillon To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: Subject: Re: First test of GPL in court In-Reply-To: <20020228142249.GB1805@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On the other hand the first language I learnt was Fortran 4 on a > CDC 7600, at the time the most powerful computer in the world > (designed by Mr Cray no less, before he left CDC to go on to .. > well you know those big things that don't have operating systems). > It was there that I learnt all I know about hardware engineering. > The 7600 was built on banks of removable "modules"..when a faulty > one was found it was extracted with a special tool and replaced. > To find a faulty module when the diagnostics were vague the > engineers resorted to a technique known as "shock testing". This > involved hitting the module with a small hammer to see if the > diagnostic information would become more helpful. > > I have often thought of applying this technique to the various > bosses I have had in my life to see if I can get them to make > sense. Unfortunately I discovered there was usually no module to > extract. ROFL... now that's a fortune candidate if I've ever seen one... :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet - Available for IA32 (Intel x86) and Alpha architectures - IA64, PowerPC, UltraSPARC, and ARM architectures under development - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 20: 1: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFCD37B417 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164] helo=access2.hanley.stade.co.uk) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 16geED-000PGC-0B for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 04:01:05 +0000 Received: from titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (titus [192.168.1.5]) by access2.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g2140uI04425 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:00:56 GMT (envelope-from aw1@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.hanley.stade.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g213ua822143 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:56:36 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 03:56:36 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Dectapes (was Re: First test of GPL in court) Message-ID: <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: Adrian Wontroba , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org>; from mwm-dated-1015297738.0e4ea3@mired.org on Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:08:58PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 1782 207338 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:08:58PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Hey, I remember those. I'm still trying to find someone who's got a > working Dectape (the open real kind, not the later ones) so I can see > if there's anything interesting on the last backup of my v6 directory. Sorry, I've not seen a Dectape since the mid 70s. They were an interesting concept - a block addressable tape device, on which you could do random access, and thus use it like a s.l.o.w. disk. I had a lot of fun with PS8 and Dectapes on a PDP8. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 20:17: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDC937B417 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA15891 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:21:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203010421.XAA15891@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: just a question Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:17:01 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org for those of you that run ftp servers, what ftp deamon do you use and why? i'm setting up a small server for some friends, no more that 4-5 users. i'm considering either proftpd or the ftpd deamon that is part of freebsd. basically i just want to know what it is that you guys use, and if there's something about one in paticular that makes you like it better nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 20:21:18 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9117837B41B for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1264 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 04:20:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.405.365982.645106@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:20:37 -0600 To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dectapes (was Re: First test of GPL in court) In-Reply-To: <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> References: <20020227133748.C64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227054428.M12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba types: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:08:58PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Hey, I remember those. I'm still trying to find someone who's got a > > working Dectape (the open real kind, not the later ones) so I can see > > if there's anything interesting on the last backup of my v6 directory. > Sorry, I've not seen a Dectape since the mid 70s. I actually know someone who claims to have one working, and is trying to get a PDP-11 close enough to it to use. > They were an interesting concept - a block addressable tape device, on > which you could do random access, and thus use it like a s.l.o.w. disk. Yup. They were bootable, too, so you could put / on them. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 20:28:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ocis.net (mailserver.ocis.net [209.52.173.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A399C37B405 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from host64.wireless.kamloops.net ([64.114.144.93] helo=phoenix) by mail.ocis.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16geeb-00007r-00; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:28:21 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: Nathan Mace Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:25:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: just a question Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3C7E922F.13293.8F9757@localhost> In-reply-to: <200203010421.XAA15891@uce55.uchaswv.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org begin Somewhere around 23:17 on February 28, 2002, Nathan wrote: > for those of you that run ftp servers, what ftp deamon do you use and > why? i'm setting up a small server for some friends, no more that 4-5 > users. i'm considering either proftpd or the ftpd deamon that is part > of freebsd. basically i just want to know what it is that you guys > use, and if there's something about one in paticular that makes you > like it better I'm using ProFTPd on 11 servers around the local school district. It's got a very nice, easy-to-understand config syntax, and allows me to do funky things with file ownership/usernames/and virtual users. :) I've used WU-FTPd on RedHat Linux before, and it was horrible. I've also used NcFTPd, which was very nice, but has a max-user-limit of 3 users in the free version. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 21:32:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF7E37B405 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:32:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ppp57.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.57]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA17582 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:32:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Paul C. Boyle" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: GUI question. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 00:33:40 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. Myself I prefer KDE. I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. That was also my first crack at #nix's. This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. There is only a NEWBIE list so I am posting here. Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat screen monitor on just a black and white console. I mean if you have the hardware, use it. I do use windows to play a few games now and then but if FreeBSD could do that I'd be a happy man. I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. Not that I would want a corporate stering committe, that could compromise quality for deadlines. What do you think? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 21:50:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CB637B41C for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gfw8-000O4d-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 05:50:32 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 7DB8213040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:50:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id E51E1225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:50:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:50:26 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dectapes (was Re: First test of GPL in court) Message-ID: <20020301055026.GB2196@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15487.405.365982.645106@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15487.405.365982.645106@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:20:37PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Adrian Wontroba types: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 09:08:58PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > > Hey, I remember those. I'm still trying to find someone who's got a > > > working Dectape (the open real kind, not the later ones) so I can see > > > if there's anything interesting on the last backup of my v6 directory. > > Sorry, I've not seen a Dectape since the mid 70s. > > I actually know someone who claims to have one working, and is trying > to get a PDP-11 close enough to it to use. > > > They were an interesting concept - a block addressable tape device, on > > which you could do random access, and thus use it like a s.l.o.w. disk. > > Yup. They were bootable, too, so you could put / on them. > Hee hee, yes I remember doing that as well :) A moderately entertaining exercise. I also remember booting PDP 11/44's in which you had to type into the console some magic octal numbers to get it to read the boot block. There was a single digit difference between the incantation to "read" the block and to "write" it :). Kids today, they're spoilt. In my day there was none of this new-fangled fsck nonsense; we were real system manager in those days, "clri" was our friend. And then that wonderful moment when after repairing the root file system for 30 minutes you typed "sync" before rebooting - and you got the wonderful learning opportunity of doing it all over again :) I do remember the early versions of fsck, one day we let it rip and auto-repair one of the file-systems, it took a long time. We had a beautifully clean system at the end of it though, it had systematically removed every single file on the system. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 21:51:26 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ocis.net (mailserver.ocis.net [209.52.173.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F087737B427 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from host64.wireless.kamloops.net ([64.114.144.93] helo=phoenix) by mail.ocis.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16gfwi-0003j6-00; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:51:08 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: "Paul C. Boyle" Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:48:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GUI question. Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <3C7EA591.32350.DB4D82@localhost> In-reply-to: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org begin Somewhere around 0:33 on March 01, 2002, Paul wrote: > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. > Myself I prefer KDE. I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. > That was also my first crack at #nix's. > This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. > There is only a NEWBIE list so I am posting here. > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean > windows. Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? At home, I only have a piddly little P-166 laptop running Windows 98SE. Has done everything I need it to do for the past 3 years, and hasn't failed me yet. I've tried various Linux and BSD releases on it, but couldn't find a driver for my Winmodem and Trident vid card (at the time, all I had was dial-up). At work, I haven't used a Windows desktop for close to two years. My main workstation is FreeBSD (started at 4.2, now running 4.5) running XFree 3.x. I started with GNOME but it didn't look or feel right to me. Didn't feel complete for some reason. Moved to KDE when 2.0 was released and stayed with it until 2.2.x. Then I found IceWM. Provides everything I need in a window manager, which is a nice taskbar, an application menu, and lots of keyboard control. I'm currently experimentting with BlackBox. I really like the apps that come with KDE 2, and use those in IceWM. Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 21:55:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C72D37B417 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16gg1G-0004bi-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 05:55:51 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 2776113040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:55:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 289BA225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:55:45 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 06:55:45 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: just a question Message-ID: <20020301055545.GC2196@raggedclown.net> References: <200203010421.XAA15891@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203010421.XAA15891@uce55.uchaswv.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:17:01PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > for those of you that run ftp servers, what ftp deamon do you use and why? > i'm setting up a small server for some friends, no more that 4-5 users. i'm > considering either proftpd or the ftpd deamon that is part of freebsd. > basically i just want to know what it is that you guys use, and if there's > something about one in paticular that makes you like it better > Use "sftpd", the secure shell ftp facility for max. security. And there is a gratis ssh/scp/sftp client available for windows..google for "putty".. that works a treat. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 22:28:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8255E37B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16ggWx-0004pk-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:28:35 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 9220013040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:28:34 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 8B34E225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:28:32 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:28:32 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. Message-ID: <20020301062832.GD2196@raggedclown.net> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:33:40AM -0500, Paul C. Boyle wrote: > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. > Myself I prefer KDE. > I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. > That was also my first crack at #nix's. > A lot of people do not use any kind of GUI. Depends on what kinds of things you do of course. Despite attempts to put system managerial apps into KDE etc I think they are all a waste of time. On the other hand I use KDE when I want to do browsing, I have a whole bunch of links to things I am interested in, or to reference material etc. The problem is most of the browsers all suck one way or another; not one of them does everything properly. I like Opera, but it is so buggy I look forward to a stable version. Lynx in the console is ok for pure text and from sites who try to use "proper" html in their pages. I don't like any of the X11 mail applications, so I use Mutt, which is a brilliant piece of work. I don't read newsgroups much, but when I do I use knode, since there is no really nice console news app (well slrn maybe, but it's over-rated). I write documents using Star Office. But the rest of the time I am in the console(s). > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Well, you can't run Outlook :) > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. Elegant to look at, jeez it is a nightmare behind the scenes, and is still riddled with bugs. > > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. Linux will/is going corporate. It is the story of Unix all over again. No commonality in the management/support area. Look along the shelves of books in your bookstore, there are books on Redhat Linux, on SuSE linux, on Debian Linux....just as their are books on HP Unix, on Solaris Sunos..etc. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. Because FreeBSD is controlled by a bunch of 60's burnouts living in caravans and feeding chickens. Probably all vegetarian communists as well... :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 22:30:53 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23CB037B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:30:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16ggYy-0000LC-00; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:30:40 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:30:40 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Nathan Mace Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: just a question In-Reply-To: <20020301055545.GC2196@raggedclown.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 11:17:01PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > > for those of you that run ftp servers, what ftp deamon do you use and why? > > i'm setting up a small server for some friends, no more that 4-5 users. i'm > > considering either proftpd or the ftpd deamon that is part of freebsd. > > basically i just want to know what it is that you guys use, and if there's > > something about one in paticular that makes you like it better Just use the ftpd that comes by default. It is small and works. I also use lukemftpd; it is also small but provides lots of interesting features. > Use "sftpd", the secure shell ftp facility for max. security. > And there is a gratis ssh/scp/sftp client available for windows..google > for "putty".. that works a treat. I reviewed some GUI clients last year: File transfer options -- Part I: Secure iXplorer http://www.apachetoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-01-12-003-06-OS-LF-AD File transfer options -- Part 2: WinSCP http://www.apachetoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-03-14-001-06-OS-LF-AD (I think these programs have been updated and improved since I last installed them.) Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 28 23:39: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71EE737B402 for ; Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:38:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 2139EFC2; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 01:38:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 01:38:53 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. Message-ID: <20020301013853.B3880@over-yonder.net> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com>; from paulcb_mcse@yahoo.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:33:40AM -0500 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:33:40AM -0500 I heard the voice of Paul C. Boyle, and lo! it spake thus: > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. I *heart* my ctwm. I don't like any of the KDE's or Gnomes or whatever; I want my window manager to manage my windows, and otherwise get the heck out of my way. Now, mind you, I don't use many GUI apps. I use xmms for mp3's, occasionally a Realplayer (Gotta catch Car Talk!), web browsers... and basically just a *WHOLE* lot of xterms. Normally, I stabilize on somewhere between 48 and 55, across 6 virtual desktops. Add 20-30 Netscape windows (before it crashes, of course), etc. I don't use it for the GUI apps, so much as just to have enough *ROOM* for the xterms; can't fit 50 login sessions on the console as easily. Here's a screenshot from last month (about 150k) http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/misc/screen-20020127.png > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. Definately. Try getting Windows to work with 70+ windows open; the UI just doesn't scale. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Within the capabilities of the hardware, at least. > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat screen *shiver* Well, to each his own; that's why we have a choice of WM's. > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. They didn't. They go where the money is; that's why they're still in business. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 1:11:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515A137B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 01:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ppp42.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.42]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA15990 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:11:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203010911.EAA15990@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Paul C. Boyle" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Man is this FreeBSD addictive. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:12:23 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's 4 in the morning and all I can do play with this massive toy. By the way I saw this line on a t-shirt being sold on ebay. chmod +x a /bin/laden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 4:48:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp017.mail.yahoo.com (smtp017.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C8C437B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 04:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mimerki (AUTH poptime) at adsl-20-121-81.chs.bellsouth.net (HELO Rozinante) (66.20.121.81) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 2002 12:47:14 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Marcia Barrett Nice To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:46:59 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <02030107465904.24952@Rozinante> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I use FreeBSD both on a desktop machine and on a firewall box for our home LAN. I started out with Gnome but had ill-luck with it and switched to KDE for my desktop machine. For what I want (web browsing, e-mail, etc) KDE works fine. As a technical writer, I use StarOffice, because people want documents in MSWord format and made to look "pretty". I still occassionally run Windows for games, though if I can ever get Quake III for Linux to run under FBSD that may come to a sudden halt. For the firewall box, command line. X isn't even installed. Now if only I could find an old amber-tone monitor to go with it, I'd be truly happy... Marci On Friday 01 March 2002 12:33 am, Paul C. Boyle wrote GUI question.: | I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. | Myself I prefer KDE. | I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. | That was also my first crack at #nix's. | | This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. | There is only a NEWBIE list so I am posting here. | Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. | Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? | Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat | screen monitor on just a black and white console. | I mean if you have the hardware, use it. | I do use windows to play a few games now and then but if FreeBSD could do | that I'd be a happy man. | | I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. | Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. | Not that I would want a corporate stering committe, that could compromise | quality for deadlines. | | What do you think? | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org | with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- So why, pray, sign anything as long as every word, letter, penstroke, paperspace is a perfect signature of its own? - James Joyce, Finnegans Wake _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 5: 9: 5 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A759E37B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id BBF9D3FC2E; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:08:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:08:41 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. Message-ID: <20020301140841.A29441@energyhq.homeip.net> Mail-Followup-To: "Paul C. Boyle" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com>; from paulcb_mcse@yahoo.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:33:40AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 12:33:40AM -0500, Paul C. Boyle wrote: Hi Paul, > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. > Myself I prefer KDE. > I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. > That was also my first crack at #nix's. When I started I used to run fvwm at first and then switched to windowmaker (We are talking like since 1998 or so here). I love WMaker, and I kept using it until a new version came out the depended on the Hermes library. Sure, I could keep running 0.64, but when I upgraded to 0.70 I noticed that Hermes doesn't like to run on a setup where the X server has different endianess that the box it runs off. To make it short, I decided I could try something different and tried almost every wm in ports, from pwm (minimalistic setup) to Gnome and KDE. I found Gnome extremely slow for networked sessions and pretty crash prone, and found KDE really good. I hadn't tried KDE since the first version came out some time ago, and I have to admint that I was really impressed by it. > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? It definitely does, FreeBSD does a pretty good job for me as a desktop. > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat sc= reen=20 > monitor on just a black and white console. > I mean if you have the hardware, use it.=20 Agreed, I think the KDE have done an excellent work for the 2.x series and the upcoming 3.0 version. > I do use windows to play a few games now and then but if FreeBSD could do= =20 > that I'd be a happy man. =20 My gaming is usually restricted to nethack, some xmame and freeciv, all of them working prefectly on FreeBSD, but I don't really play much. =20 > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. Linux is fashionable, you mention Linux and a lot of people have heard about it. It's more of a PR thing than otherwise methinks. And pretty beneficial for those companies. I mean, IBM can use Linux and suddenly they have an OS developed for free, no more R&D investment needed. Sure you could do that with FreeBSD but Linux is something people know about. I really doubt it was chosen by it's technical excellence, specially not after seeing the 2.4 fiasco. Cheers, --=20 Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk FreeBSD - The power to serve! --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8f31YnLctrNyFFPERAhJrAKCAnOlpZdQzEEzk9ehLJNW3LV325wCfQ9Uo 63MqViyK+MMmCMt8dE1k2e0= =M6bj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --r5Pyd7+fXNt84Ff3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 5:21:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D44C37B405 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:21:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21DLZK29955; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:21:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24881; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:21:35 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7F805A.EE69D394@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:21:30 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok.. I'll join in too. :) "Paul C. Boyle" wrote: > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. I use FreeBSD for everything. I have workstations at home and at work running it, plus my notebook. I also run it on VPN's and firewalls. I use BlackBox and AfterStep (I like BlackBox more tho - superfast, and simple). > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Yes, except for video editing. There isn't any software for any free OS that does good video editing. (that I know of?) > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat screen > monitor on just a black and white console. KDE looks like windows. It is familiar to everyone. But, like windows, it is a hog of every resource, and slows you down. It seems to get in the way more than be useful as a tool (which is what a computer is). My $0.02. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 5:23:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBDA37B405 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21DNiK00051 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:23:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24901 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:23:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 07:23:40 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: DVD+RW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone played with one under FreeBSD yet? I don't see much in the way of support for it under any free OS yet, except for a little bit under linux. Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 7: 7:48 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E4637B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 07:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.26] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g21F7Y814741; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:07:35 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:06:50 +0100 To: "Paul C. Boyle" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: GUI question. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 AM -0500 2002/03/01, Paul C. Boyle wrote: > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. Aqua under MacOS X. ;-) > Myself I prefer KDE. For *BSD (including FreeBSD), I would generally prefer no GUI -- I use these types of OSes mainly as servers, which almost never need anything like X, etc.... For those cases where I might actually need an X server and a window manager, I'd probably prefer something fairly light, most likely fvwm or something similar. > This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. I got my start with BSD 2.9 on a PDP 11/70 in 1989. Do I count? ;-) > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. I try to keep my life as Microsoft-free as possible. On servers, I prefer to use FreeBSD (on x86 hardware), OpenBSD (on most everything else, other than SPARC64), and Solaris (on SPARC64). For firewalls, I much prefer OpenBSD on pretty much whatever. On desktops, I prefer Macintosh. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? That's hard for me to judge. I simply never use it for this role. > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat screen > monitor on just a black and white console. For a B&W console, I'd stick an old 15" freebie (or near-freebie) monitor on the thing and be done with it. Better yet, connect it to a KVM switch. > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. Linux has the market mindshare. It is also a sufficiently ill-defined quantity and the Linux-side players are sufficiently ignorant of most business/marketing/propaganda issues that they can be relatively easily subverted. The companies are well aware of the fact that *BSD was born via trial-by-fire here in the US between the hacker and business communities (and all the ultra-nasty lawsuits, etc...). The business types know that there are still plenty of players on the other side of the fence that are still around and have very long memories and a great deal of distrust that has been built up over the years, and they know that they're not going to be too successful in twisting *BSD to suit their whim. Therefore, it's a lot easier for IBM, HP, etc... to play the Microsoft-like "embrace-and-extend" philosophy with Linux than it is to try to do that with *BSD. The Linux community has never really been so seduced by the dark side, and therefore they make relatively easy prey. Not so the *BSD types -- we may not be as well known in the market, but we have earned our scars in battle and wear them as badges of honor. > Not that I would want a corporate stering committe, that could compromise > quality for deadlines. > > What do you think? Some would claim that it's a licensing issue (GPL vs. BSD), and that the companies don't want to put their corporate family jewels in a true open source environment, but I don't think that this is the real problem at all. I think that the real problem is that they want to be more Microsoftian than Microsoft, and they know that they've already burned the *BSD community, so they figure that you can't play that trick twice on the same people. Since they have not yet had these kinds of problems with the Linux folks, they can embrace them very tightly -- as you would a sheep, just before slaughtering it. You gotta watch really closely to see what the heck that thing is in their other hand. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 8:11:30 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0857C37B41A for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6505 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 16:11:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.43041.865740.420691@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:11:13 -0600 To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. In-Reply-To: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul C. Boyle types: > This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. I started with v6, back in the early 80s. Before anyone was seriously considering marketing GUIs.g > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. I've never used either DOS or FreeBSD as a desktop workstation. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Basically, yes. There are some thing I'd like to play with that I can't because of lack of hardware support, but that's just play. Anything that looks even vaguely like real work can be handled by FreeBSD. Even in cases where that "vaguely" is very so, like checking VCD's I've made to mail to friends, the FreeBSD apps do better than the common Windows apps - which surprised me. > Personaly I think KDE is elegant. And I can't see waisting a 17" flat screen > monitor on just a black and white console. Personally, I think KDE and Gnome are elephans, and can't see wastiing most of a 21" monitor on decoration that dosn't add functionality. > I mean if you have the hardware, use it. But only if it's appropriate. Window management is too important to be left to such a low-bandwidth device as a mouse. -- Jim Mackraz I use a window manager that lets me use a higher-bandwidth device than the mouse. Give that, the only decoration a window needs is a border that changes color to indicate the active window. My borders are 5 pixels wide. GIven all that, I'm not sure you'd call it a GUI. I run X, and have gkrellm and a mixer with sliders, and use some applications that do the folders/files requestor. FWIW, it's the plpwm example in the x11-wm/plwm port. > I do use windows to play a few games now and then but if FreeBSD could do > that I'd be a happy man. After 20+ years of working on computers 8 hours a day, I don't play games on them. Well, except my Palm. The playstation is for playing games on. Besides which, a controller in an easy chair is much more comfortable than a keyboard at a desk. > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. > Not that I would want a corporate stering committe, that could compromise > quality for deadlines. > What do you think? HP is a hardware shop, and will use whatever software they can to sell their hardware. Right now, Linux has the name recognition, and so they'll sell more boxes. IBM has done a number of different Unix systems - ranging from PC/IX to Unix under VM on 3xxxx hardware. They've had - at best - mediocre performance in the market. I think they're trying a Unix-like OS instead of real Unix to see if they get better success. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 8:14:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D07D37B41A for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6551 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 16:14:17 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.43224.708711.796419@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:14:16 -0600 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dectapes (was Re: First test of GPL in court) In-Reply-To: <20020301055026.GB2196@raggedclown.net> References: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15487.405.365982.645106@guru.mired.org> <20020301055026.GB2196@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson types: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2002 at 10:20:37PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Adrian Wontroba types: > I also remember booting PDP 11/44's in which you had to type into the > console some magic octal numbers to get it to read the boot block. There > was a single digit difference between the incantation to "read" the > block and to "write" it :). > > Kids today, they're spoilt. Keyboard? We used an 11/70, and you had to toggle the hex digits into the front panel, as binary. > I do remember the early versions of fsck, one day we let it rip and > auto-repair one of the file-systems, it took a long time. We had a > beautifully clean system at the end of it though, it had systematically > removed every single file on the system. I like the behavior of so many tools in the beta releases of BSD after they added symlinks to the file system. Many of the tools didn't know how to handle them, so if you created a directory loop with a symlink, it would dump it as such. Unless there were a lot of big files between the two ends, tar usually ran out of pathname space before you ran out of tape. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 8:46:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B9837B41A for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0251.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.251] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gqB7-0000ty-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:46:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7FB044.9A64DABC@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:45:56 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul C. Boyle" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Paul C. Boyle" wrote: > I just want to get an idea of what people are using for a desktop GUI. > Myself I prefer KDE. > I have had it since the beta came with SUSE 5.2. > That was also my first crack at #nix's. > > This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. I use KDE. I used to use Fvwm95, so that my UI didn't change too much when I had to switch around. Before that, fwvm, before that, something I wrote, and before that DECWindows (Motif), and before that twm, and to start with on X, uwm. I've used OpenLook at work on Sun and UnixWare. A GUI is a GUI. Other than CASE tools, I mostly use it for stacking and moving around xterms, anyway. > There is only a NEWBIE list so I am posting here. > Do you use FreeBSD as a desktop workstation or do you still clean windows. I use Windows because of the Winmodem support, but I usually VNC onto a FreeBSD box from it. > Does FreeBSD do everything you need for a workstation? Everything but support Winmodems. > I see in the news that IBM is supporting LInux and maybe HP is as well. > Why do you suppose they overlooked FreeBSD. Linux has better PR value. It is being used solely for it's PR value. If FreeBSD was better in this department than Linux, they'd be abusing that bandwagon instead. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 8:51:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4063A37B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0251.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.251] helo=mindspring.com) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gqFi-0007Ym-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:51:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7FB160.1D153773@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 08:50:40 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dectapes (was Re: First test of GPL in court) References: <20020227135103.E64839@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20020227061336.N12253@rain.macguire.net> <20020227142303.A65635@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15484.63760.663944.125557@guru.mired.org> <20020227163501.A66574@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <15485.4354.561280.729573@guru.mired.org> <20020228020025.B65094@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15485.40778.433515.165006@guru.mired.org> <20020301035636.C20774@titus.hanley.stade.co.uk> <15487.405.365982.645106@guru.mired.org> <20020301055026.GB2196@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson wrote: [ ... Dectapes ... ] > > > They were an interesting concept - a block addressable tape device, on > > > which you could do random access, and thus use it like a s.l.o.w. disk. > > > > Yup. They were bootable, too, so you could put / on them. > > > Hee hee, yes I remember doing that as well :) > A moderately entertaining exercise. Oh God. Ultrix when you booted off of TK50 didn't want to install on hard drives that weren't exactly the same size as DEC hard drives. You had to boot the tape, break out of the script, and then use "dd" to edit the script to include the hard drive size, and the drive table to match, so that you could install on third party hard drives. What an experience... > I also remember booting PDP 11/44's in which you had to type into the > console some magic octal numbers to get it to read the boot block. There > was a single digit difference between the incantation to "read" the > block and to "write" it :). Heh. I can probably still toggle in the front panel bootstrap on a SWTP 6800 to get it to read the paper tape reader to boot the rest of the way up... the sequence is stored in my spine somewhere. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 8:52:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5042437B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 10795 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 16:52:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.45514.154511.764947@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:52:26 -0600 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. In-Reply-To: <3C7FB044.9A64DABC@mindspring.com> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <3C7FB044.9A64DABC@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert types: > "Paul C. Boyle" wrote: > A GUI is a GUI. Other than CASE tools, I mostly use it > for stacking and moving around xterms, anyway. You might want to consider either ratpoison, or the plpwm example bundled into plwm, both of which are *much* saner solutions for stacking and moving xterms than anything else I've seen. Having to actually touch the rodent just to activate a different xterm? What a waste! http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 9:21:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA5B37B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:21:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0251.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.251] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16gqiI-0004TE-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 09:20:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3C7FB847.EC3B9AD0@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 09:20:07 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: "Paul C. Boyle" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <15487.43041.865740.420691@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > > This posting is mainly directed to the OLDIES. > > I started with v6, back in the early 80s. Before anyone was seriously > considering marketing GUIs.g Heh. I used a GUI on UNIX back then. Oh yeah, forgot the AT&T UNIX PC (3B1). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 9:28: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFFD37B41D for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16gqp6-000Mgp-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:28:00 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id D95E013040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:27:59 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 8E6AE225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:27:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:27:57 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW Message-ID: <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:23:40AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > Anyone played with one under FreeBSD yet? I don't see much in the way of > support for it under any free OS yet, except for a little bit under linux. > When the cost of them approaches sanity levels I am sure someone will start writing support software for them...but it is helpful if you can afford to buy one if you are going to write a driver for it :) Anyway this is where the copy-protection worm is *really* going to start to turn...depending on which zone you live in I guess. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 9:47: 9 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ACFED37B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11376 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 17:47:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:46:59 -0600 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW In-Reply-To: <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Sarginson types: > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:23:40AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Anyone played with one under FreeBSD yet? I don't see much in the way of > > support for it under any free OS yet, except for a little bit under linux. > When the cost of them approaches sanity levels I am sure someone will > start writing support software for them...but it is helpful if you can > afford to buy one if you are going to write a driver for it :) There's just a little bit for FreeBSD as well. cdrecord - and I believe burncd - can write data to them. Until support for the UDF file system is available, they're basically just big CD-RW's. > Anyway this is where the copy-protection worm is *really* going to start > to turn...depending on which zone you live in I guess. That worm is already turning. Take a look at SSSCA, which exists because the DMCA isn't sufficient. If that becomes law, it could be illegal to buy a Windows PC and install FreeBSD on it. It might also be illegal to buy a PC without a pre-installed OS on it. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 9:56:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42D537B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16grGF-0000l4-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 09:56:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW In-Reply-To: <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:23:40AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > > Anyone played with one under FreeBSD yet? I don't see much in the way of > > > support for it under any free OS yet, except for a little bit under linux. Steven M. Schultz of the bsdi-users list has been doing a lot with DVDs under BSD/OS the last 9(?) months. In January, he posted that he wrote a program using raw SCSI commands (instead of hacking the kernel) and successfully formatted and wrote a DVD+RW disc using a Hewlett-Packard DVD Writer 100. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:29:13 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C635B37B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21JT7K08949; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:29:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03793; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:29:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7FD67E.F3812F58@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:29:02 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cliff Sarginson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think $400 is insane.. but, everyone has their own limits.. Eric Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 07:23:40AM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > Anyone played with one under FreeBSD yet? I don't see much in the way of > > support for it under any free OS yet, except for a little bit under linux. > > > When the cost of them approaches sanity levels I am sure someone will > start writing support software for them...but it is helpful if you can > afford to buy one if you are going to write a driver for it :) > > Anyway this is where the copy-protection worm is *really* going to start > to turn...depending on which zone you live in I guess. > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson -- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:31:29 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1818137B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21JVPK08972; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:31:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03820; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:31:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7FD708.3DE9B7AD@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:31:20 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: Cliff Sarginson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer wrote: > There's just a little bit for FreeBSD as well. cdrecord - and I > believe burncd - can write data to them. Until support for the UDF > file system is available, they're basically just big CD-RW's. > Cool.. I didn't realize that.. I'll have to play with that sometime.. > > That worm is already turning. Take a look at SSSCA, which exists > because the DMCA isn't sufficient. If that becomes law, it could be > illegal to buy a Windows PC and install FreeBSD on it. It might also > be illegal to buy a PC without a pre-installed OS on it. EEK! that sounds horrible.. I can't imagine that going anywhere tho. Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:42:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8D137B41C; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21JgYK09311; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:42:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04153; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:42:33 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7FD9A5.DC70E24E@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 13:42:29 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: fdisk / disklabel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ok, I'm about to crack my head open.. how the heck to I do the equivalent of the sysinstall fdisk/disklabel for a new disk? I have a small (64mb) compact flash card I need to set up as a bootable freebsd partition, and can't get it going for the life of me.. No, it isn't the compact flash, I have done tons of these before, and struggled with each one, but for some reason, I can't remember the steps I took to do it. Does anyone have a cookbook or anything that could help? I've been reading disklabel and fdisk man pages all day, and googling for hints too.. HELP! Eric -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:54:55 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from volcano.planet.it (volcano.planet.it [212.110.160.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EFB37B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from olgeni.olgeni (ppp-30.dial1.ctonet.it [212.110.176.30]) by volcano.planet.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id A409211F908 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:54:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by olgeni.olgeni (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21Js9n04533 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:54:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olgeni@uli.it) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:54:09 +0100 (CET) From: Jimmy Olgeni X-X-Sender: olgeni@olgeni.olgeni To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Open Source Software Study Message-ID: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello there. Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ -- jimmy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 11:55:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CE437B41B for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16gt7X-0001N8-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 19:55:11 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 60BE313040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:55:11 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 3D6DB225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:55:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:55:06 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW Message-ID: <20020301195506.GC2147@raggedclown.net> References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <3C7FD67E.F3812F58@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3C7FD67E.F3812F58@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 01:29:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > I don't think $400 is insane.. but, everyone has their own limits.. > Mmm, you must remember that all things computer related are much much cheaper in the States than in Europe. In Holland where I live most things have 19% Tax on them..what I think is called sales-tax in the States. The EU are even now discussing proposals to put such a tax on things bought on the Internet. I purchased online a copy of Partition Magic Version 7.0 from the States, and it cost less than 50% of what it costs in a shop here...they want to stop that (I am not exactly sure how they can do that...but they will try). Unfortunately you cannot do that with harware because it has to go through customs controls. The change to the Euro currency in a large part of Europe has also caused magical price increases. A laptop I bought in December, has magically gone up in price by about 10% since January, at a time when I read PC sales are almost at an all time low worldwide. Doing a rough dollar conversion in my head I think the cheapest DVD writer I have seen was around $900, but that was some months ago. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 12:15:56 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uce55.uchaswv.edu (uce55.uchaswv.edu [12.4.161.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666E337B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:15:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from there ([172.16.32.103]) by uce55.uchaswv.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_22672)/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA14268 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:19:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Nathan Mace To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:15:52 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2] References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I try to keep my life as Microsoft-free as possible. On servers, > I prefer to use FreeBSD (on x86 hardware), OpenBSD (on most > everything else, other than SPARC64), and Solaris (on SPARC64). For > firewalls, I much prefer OpenBSD on pretty much whatever. On > desktops, I prefer Macintosh. for years i swore i'd never own a Mac, but since Os-X came out, i've been wanting a mac more and more. can anyone tell me how OS-X is from a unix type mindset? i know that somethings will be different, such as directories and naming conventions. thats to be expected. but how well is it as a unix desktop? although i havn't used it, i think it would be great. unified widgets, great look and feel, in most cases commerical quality apps, as well as OSS apps. any downsides that i should be aware of before buying one? and would you recommend a low end powermac or or high end imac? i'm not into graphic's related work, i imagine that since i currently use freebsd as my desktop that i won't be doing anything resource intensive except compiling various OSS pieces of software. also, whats your take on the higher pricing of the hardware? i know it costs more, but i've been told that it last longer. as in a 5 year old mac is still usable with current apps, where as a 5 year old PC is pretty slow using the same current apps. does anyone know if this is true? and lastly, can you recommend OS-X to a unix desktop user? opensource licensing issues aside. Nathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 12:20:20 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A98DF37B41D for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14099 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 20:20:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.57977.914606.803767@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:20:09 -0600 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SSSCA (Was: DVD+RW) In-Reply-To: <3C7FD708.3DE9B7AD@centtech.com> References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> <3C7FD708.3DE9B7AD@centtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.46 (Python 2.2; freebsd-4.5-STABLE-i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson types: > Mike Meyer wrote: > > That worm is already turning. Take a look at SSSCA, which exists > > because the DMCA isn't sufficient. If that becomes law, it could be > > illegal to buy a Windows PC and install FreeBSD on it. It might also > > be illegal to buy a PC without a pre-installed OS on it. > EEK! that sounds horrible.. I can't imagine that going anywhere tho. Well, I couldn't imagine DMCA going anywhere, either. But this comes from the same people who gave us the DMCA, with the same gigabuck funds, and basically gives it more teeth. If you haven't read it, it makes it illegal to sell any device that can display, store or copy digital content that doesn't include some kind of copyright protection scheme (*); to modify such a device so as to defeat said scheme; to tell someone how to make such modificiations; or to do research on copy protection schemes in general. *) It's not retroactive; any device manufactured before some date that is later than the signing can be legally sold whether or not it has such a copyright protection scheme I've heard it claimed that this is the *minimum* needed to prevent the wholesale theft of any digital content. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 12:22: 6 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A6037B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21KM0K10164 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:22:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05109 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:22:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7FE2E4.854A2F57@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:21:56 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DVD+RW References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <3C7FD67E.F3812F58@centtech.com> <20020301195506.GC2147@raggedclown.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ahh.. well, that makes all the difference. I didn't know you were not in the US. There are people trying to tax internet sales here too, but I think it will flop - too hard to manage and control. Eric Cliff Sarginson wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 01:29:02PM -0600, Eric Anderson wrote: > > I don't think $400 is insane.. but, everyone has their own limits.. > > > Mmm, you must remember that all things computer related are > much much cheaper in the States than in Europe. In Holland where I live > most things have 19% Tax on them..what I think is called sales-tax > in the States. The EU are even now discussing proposals to put such a > tax on things bought on the Internet. I purchased online a copy of > Partition Magic Version 7.0 from the States, and it cost less than 50% > of what it costs in a shop here...they want to stop that (I am not > exactly sure how they can do that...but they will try). Unfortunately > you cannot do that with harware because it has to go through customs > controls. > The change to the Euro currency in a large part of Europe has also > caused magical price increases. A laptop I bought in December, has > magically gone up in price by about 10% since January, at a time when > I read PC sales are almost at an all time low worldwide. > > Doing a rough dollar conversion in my head I think the cheapest DVD > writer I have seen was around $900, but that was some months ago. > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson -- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 12:26:19 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from proxy.centtech.com (moat.centtech.com [206.196.95.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A68737B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:26:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sprint.centtech.com (sprint.centtech.com [10.177.173.31]) by proxy.centtech.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g21KQAK10294; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:26:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from centtech.com (proton [10.177.173.77]) by sprint.centtech.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05175; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:26:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3C7FE3DD.B06CE8F6@centtech.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:26:05 -0600 From: Eric Anderson Reply-To: anderson@centtech.com Organization: Centaur Technology X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Meyer Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA (Was: DVD+RW) References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> <3C7FD708.3DE9B7AD@centtech.com> <15487.57977.914606.803767@guru.mired.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would guess that keeping prices reasonable would keep most people from copying it. I mean really, if a CD was $3, you probably would buy more of them, and pirate less.. Maybe these companies should invest in companies who make blank media? Eric Mike Meyer wrote: > > Eric Anderson types: > > Mike Meyer wrote: > > > That worm is already turning. Take a look at SSSCA, which exists > > > because the DMCA isn't sufficient. If that becomes law, it could be > > > illegal to buy a Windows PC and install FreeBSD on it. It might also > > > be illegal to buy a PC without a pre-installed OS on it. > > EEK! that sounds horrible.. I can't imagine that going anywhere tho. > > Well, I couldn't imagine DMCA going anywhere, either. But this comes > from the same people who gave us the DMCA, with the same gigabuck > funds, and basically gives it more teeth. If you haven't read it, it > makes it illegal to sell any device that can display, store or copy > digital content that doesn't include some kind of copyright protection > scheme (*); to modify such a device so as to defeat said scheme; to > tell someone how to make such modificiations; or to do research on > copy protection schemes in general. > > *) It's not retroactive; any device manufactured before some date that > is later than the signing can be legally sold whether or not it has > such a copyright protection scheme > > I've heard it claimed that this is the *minimum* needed to prevent the > wholesale theft of any digital content. > > -- > Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ > Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric Anderson Systems Administrator Centaur Technology If at first you don't succeed, sky diving is probably not for you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 12:33:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C5637B417 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16gtiV-0001i7-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 20:33:23 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id CF27213040 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:33:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 7B573225C1; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:33:19 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:33:19 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Message-ID: <20020301203319.GA17617@raggedclown.net> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 03:15:52PM -0500, Nathan Mace wrote: > > I try to keep my life as Microsoft-free as possible. On servers, > > I prefer to use FreeBSD (on x86 hardware), OpenBSD (on most > > everything else, other than SPARC64), and Solaris (on SPARC64). For > > firewalls, I much prefer OpenBSD on pretty much whatever. On > > desktops, I prefer Macintosh. > > for years i swore i'd never own a Mac, but since Os-X came out, i've been > wanting a mac more and more. can anyone tell me how OS-X is from a unix type > mindset? i know that somethings will be different, such as directories and > naming conventions. thats to be expected. but how well is it as a unix > desktop? although i havn't used it, i think it would be great. unified > widgets, great look and feel, in most cases commerical quality apps, as well > as OSS apps. any downsides that i should be aware of before buying one? and > would you recommend a low end powermac or or high end imac? i'm not into > graphic's related work, i imagine that since i currently use freebsd as my > desktop that i won't be doing anything resource intensive except compiling > various OSS pieces of software. > > also, whats your take on the higher pricing of the hardware? i know it costs > more, but i've been told that it last longer. as in a 5 year old mac is > still usable with current apps, where as a 5 year old PC is pretty slow using > the same current apps. does anyone know if this is true? > > and lastly, can you recommend OS-X to a unix desktop user? opensource > licensing issues aside. > If I had the money I would buy one. Apple technology was from day 1 superior to Intel based systems. It is my view, (am I allowed to say this), if it hadn't been for the greed and plain eccentricity of the founders of Apple most of us would have Apples on our desktops, not Intel/AMD based PC's. They have come so near the edge with their pricing I can hardly believe thay have never fell off. They have survived I believe largely because of this noose they have around Microsoft's neck concerning desktop applications for Apples. As for questions about MacosX, I hear good things, but the person I know who is most keen on them is a freelance Graphics Designer with a 24" Flat Screen and a network of Apples and God knows what that makes me think I chose the wrong career. His system probably cost what I earn in a year. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 13:16:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F3F537B41A for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 13:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17071 invoked by uid 100); 1 Mar 2002 21:16:44 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15487.61372.124944.431363@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:16:44 -0600 To: anderson@centtech.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SSSCA (Was: DVD+RW) In-Reply-To: <3C7FE3DD.B06CE8F6@centtech.com> References: <3C7F80DC.B63138D8@centtech.com> <20020301172757.GA421@raggedclown.net> <15487.48787.947758.22079@guru.mired.org> <3C7FD708.3DE9B7AD@centtech.com> <15487.57977.914606.803767@guru.mired.org> <3C7FE3DD.B06CE8F6@centtech.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.47 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric Anderson types: > I would guess that keeping prices reasonable would keep most people from copying > it. I mean really, if a CD was $3, you probably would buy more of them, and > pirate less.. Maybe these companies should invest in companies who make blank > media? Why should they do that? They've already got the US government collecting taxes on a lot of that blank media for them. Besides, that would mean they'd have to go from a 1000% markup to a 300% one. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 14:17:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ECF537B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.26] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g21MGg827882; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:16:43 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 23:12:28 +0100 To: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:15 PM -0500 2002/03/01, Nathan Mace wrote: > for years i swore i'd never own a Mac, but since Os-X came out, i've been > wanting a mac more and more. Ever since 1989 (when I first encountered the power of Unix on BSD 2.9 on a PDP 11/70 with 128KB of RAM), I have been waiting for someone to deliver an OS with the incredible ease of use of the Macintosh (I was converted to the one true faith in 1984) with the power of Unix. I remember A/UX. I remember what a joke it was. I also remember MachTen. Close, but no cigar. I remember when NeXT first came out, and realized then that this was probably as close as I would ever get. Ever since, I lived in hope that we could get NeXTstep or at least OpenStep ported to the Macintosh. I remember the promise of Rhapsody, which was never delivered (I've got a couple of books on it, but at least it was never delivered to the masses). I remember when MacOS X Server came out, and how much I wanted the desktop version. I remember the problems that people had with the early betas of MacOS X 10, and I remember when MacOS X 10.1 came out. I am now on MacOS X 10.1.3, and am fairly happy. There are still some things that aren't working correctly yet, but I am very encouraged. > can anyone tell me how OS-X is from a unix type > mindset? It is 95% of the way there from the Mac perspective. However, it does not ship with an X server, and getting one to work on MacOS X is not trivial. It's much more difficult to get it working and fully integrated with the MacOS X desktop (i.e., in rootless mode). Most any of the command-line stuff you want is probably either already there (among other things, they've integrated OpenSSH), or should relatively easily compile and install. > i know that somethings will be different, such as directories and > naming conventions. thats to be expected. Note that MacOS X doesn't work well on UFS filesystems -- whatever they did, they screwed up the support for UFS in the process of adding support for Macintosh HFS and HFS+ filesystems. Note that HFS and HFS+ don't differentiate between upper and lowercase, although it will preserve the case when it displays the filename. Unix-style symlinks work (somehow), but they don't work the same way as aliases under HFS/HFS+ (in part, because HFS/HFS+ have a concept of assigning each file on the filesystem a unique id, and the alias references this unique id as opposed to the inode). This affects Unix programs that try to reference files through aliases -- because aliases are almost universally alien to Unix programs, whereas symlinks are dealt with correctly. > but how well is it as a unix > desktop? although i havn't used it, i think it would be great. unified > widgets, great look and feel, in most cases commerical quality apps, as well > as OSS apps. I can say that I definitely prefer it! ;-) Seriously, if you use the X-on-X version of X11R6 in rootless mode, you really should have the best of both worlds. Just be careful! Keep in mind that MacOS X requires quite a lot of hardware -- the old G3 class machines are being dumped, so make sure that you get a G4. Indeed, I'd recommend a fast G4, with lots of memory. I have 1GB of RAM on my PowerBook G3 "Pismo" with a 48GB IBM Travelstar 5400 RPM drive, and it can be a little slow on my machine. Speedwise, I'd really prefer to have a PowerBook G4 Titanium (even if it was just 400Mhz, the same clock speed as my PowerBook G3), although I do prefer the modular battery/drive bays and the plastic case instead of the troublesome ultra-thin titanium case (which is difficult to remove and then put back on without bending). > any downsides that i should be aware of before buying one? and > would you recommend a low end powermac or or high end imac? i'm not into > graphic's related work, i imagine that since i currently use freebsd as my > desktop that i won't be doing anything resource intensive except compiling > various OSS pieces of software. Myself, I'd prefer a lower-end PowerMac, which gives you expansion options and monitor options that you don't have with the iMac. However, before you buy a machine, I suggest that you go down to an Apple store and look at the various systems, so that you can make up your own mind. Personally, I can't stand the new iMac -- it looks like a basketball cut in half, with a silver stick inserted. The monitor is nice -- it really does move very easily, and it really does stay where you put it. It's cool being able to move it up and down and twist it up or down, to get the perfect position. But if that's the price to be paid to have the new iMac, I'll pass. > also, whats your take on the higher pricing of the hardware? i know it costs > more, but i've been told that it last longer. as in a 5 year old mac is > still usable with current apps, where as a 5 year old PC is pretty slow using > the same current apps. does anyone know if this is true? Well, the machine I use as my daily system (the PowerBook G3 mentioned above) is considered a 2000 model, and I bought the very last one that was available in Belgium before the PowerBook G4 became available (slightly over a year ago). The hard drive is user-upgradeable (if you're careful), the memory is user-upgradeable (I did it myself), and it has one battery compartment as well as a modular battery/drive bay. You can get DVD-RW units that can be installed in the drive bay, and a company has come out with a FireWire attached modular bay that is compatible with the same modules. Except for the processor not being upgradeable (yet), I would say that this is probably still the best portable machine that Apple has produced. Because it has an ATI Rage 128 Mobility chip, it is still capable of running MacOS X, and is probably about the oldest machine capable of doing so. The older "Lombard" machine actually does have an upgradeable processor, but because it has the older ATI Rage Mobility chip, it can't run MacOS X. I also have a PCI PowerMac 7200/90 downstairs that I hope to replace the logic board on (swapping for a 7300 series), so that I can upgrade the processor to a G4 model, and then using the "Unsupported" patches, I should be able to get it running MacOS X as well (although I'm actually planning on running NetBSD or OpenBSD on it). I bought this machine in something like 1992, and if I had instead bought a slightly more expensive 7300 series model (which was also available at the same time), I wouldn't have to do the logic board upgrade -- all I'd need to do is replace the CPU daughtercard. Comparison-wise, I don't find Macs to be any more expensive than comparably equipped name-brand machines from companies like IBM or Compaq, and they certainly have a much lower total-cost-of-ownership over their lifetime than any PC you will ever find. Even when you compare against no-name clones, Macs still have a lower total-cost-of-ownership over their lifetime (although the entry price is higher). IMO, Macs win, hands-down. > and lastly, can you recommend OS-X to a unix desktop user? opensource > licensing issues aside. I would recommend it, yes. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 14:41:41 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF09937B41B for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:41:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16gviV-0000xY-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 14:41:31 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:41:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Brad Knowles wrote: > BSD 2.9 on a PDP 11/70 with 128KB of RAM), I have been waiting for > someone to deliver an OS with the incredible ease of use of the > Macintosh (I was converted to the one true faith in 1984) with the "Ease of use" is subjective. Can you (or others) share some examples of features or common steps/tasks that represent ease of use on a Macintosh? (And maybe the differences between it and doing it under X11 with a bloated window manager?) I know the new Mac OS looks pretty -- but what type of features makes it easier to use? (Not counting the ability to use standard Unix tools.) I am curious, because I've been using Macs off-and-on since 1985(?) including a couple years in journalism school. I haven't really noticed anything that makes it (Mac OS) easier for me. In fact, the GUI-itself seems little more difficult than Windows 98. Of course, Quark Express on the Macintosh is awesome! Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 15:16:35 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D9B37B41D for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.26] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g21NGP812540; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:16:25 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:16:15 +0100 To: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 3:15 PM -0500 2002/03/01, Nathan Mace wrote: > and lastly, can you recommend OS-X to a unix desktop user? opensource > licensing issues aside. Just found a really interesting site, thanks to /. See for the lowdown: "Andrew Plotkin (aka Zarf), award-winning interactive fiction author and Mac and Unix programmer, has not-so-recently posted a secret diary of his experiences installing and using Mac oh ess ex." -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 15:28:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E773737B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99AF1BD17 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29886 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:28:55 -0800 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id g21NVxn02605; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GUI question. References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <3C7FB044.9A64DABC@mindspring.com> <15487.45514.154511.764947@guru.mired.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 01 Mar 2002 15:31:57 -0800 In-Reply-To: <15487.45514.154511.764947@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: <9b8z9brhjm.z9b@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 24 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Mike Meyer" writes: > You might want to consider either ratpoison, or the plpwm example > bundled into plwm, both of which are *much* saner solutions for > stacking and moving xterms than anything else I've seen. > > Having to actually touch the rodent just to activate a different > xterm? What a waste! Good old fvwm2 gives pretty good control of windows (and their containers, pages, and their containers, desktops) with keys. Cycle up, down, iconize, goto a particular ones (favorites, though not dynamically, by name), other things I've not tried. I keep most windows stacked in the upper left corner (with 2 pixel space for easy access of background mouse menus), most filling screen except one inch right border which has (from top down) round clock, day/date/time, xload, xosview (CPU,mem,swap,paging), button bar (1/4" x 1" buttons stacking down which may be used to de/iconize or raise+fucus windows), and at bottom, a two-desktop, four-page pager (one desktop with red background to warn of the root xterms there). The config file allows key/menu/button/etc. definitions And best of all: no icons anywhere. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 15:43:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388A037B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:43:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a072.otenet.gr [212.205.215.72]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g21NhjfA005735; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 01:43:46 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g21Nhhq01720; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 01:43:43 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 01:43:43 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jimmy Olgeni Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study Message-ID: <20020301234342.GA1134@hades.hell.gr> References: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2002-03-01 20:54, Jimmy Olgeni wrote: > > Hello there. > > Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You > get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ And yes, bloody yes, I did :) I got this link last night, from a Greek channel. Only got to fill the form today, and I had a draft in my ~/mail/DRAFTS that was meant to be posted here, but then.. one can never be too fast, with other BSD users, can he? Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 16:16:25 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B85337B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 23577 invoked by uid 100); 2 Mar 2002 00:16:03 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15488.6595.64678.429591@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:16:03 -0600 To: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GUI question. In-Reply-To: <9b8z9brhjm.z9b@localhost.localdomain> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <3C7FB044.9A64DABC@mindspring.com> <15487.45514.154511.764947@guru.mired.org> <9b8z9brhjm.z9b@localhost.localdomain> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen types: > "Mike Meyer" writes: > > You might want to consider either ratpoison, or the plpwm example > > bundled into plwm, both of which are *much* saner solutions for > > stacking and moving xterms than anything else I've seen. > > > > Having to actually touch the rodent just to activate a different > > xterm? What a waste! > Good old fvwm2 gives pretty good control of windows (and their > containers, pages, and their containers, desktops) with keys. Cycle up, > down, iconize, goto a particular ones (favorites, though not > dynamically, by name), other things I've not tried. I don't know that I ever tried fvwm2. I used fvwm, just long enough to get disgusted with it. I think I used ctwm after that, but forget the details. I used lwm, then my own hacked version with CORBA bindings for the objects in it. > I keep most windows stacked in the upper left corner (with 2 pixel space > for easy access of background mouse menus), most filling screen except > one inch right border which has (from top down) round clock, > day/date/time, xload, xosview (CPU,mem,swap,paging), button bar > (1/4" x 1" buttons stacking down which may be used to de/iconize or > raise+fucus windows), and at bottom, a two-desktop, four-page pager > (one desktop with red background to warn of the root xterms there). > The config file allows key/menu/button/etc. definitions Ok, the right half of mine is an xemacs. That bottom 1/2" of the entier left half is an xconsole. The left 1" about that is gkrellm running on various systems, which give me most of the information you have over there, with the last 3/4" at the top being a mixer control for the three things I listen to most, plus global volume (that could be put into the gkrellm as well. The area surrounded by this U is either three or four xterms, depending on what I'm doing. There are usually a stack under at least one, if not all four, of those xterm spaces. > And best of all: no icons anywhere. Yup. Now, consider being able to bind an arbitrary X Keysym to any arbitrary action, or sequence of actions. That's what plpwm gives me. So I can switch to a specific visible window with a Control-. Alt- starts specific applications, or gets their window stacked in the area I'm currently working in - except for emacs, which always winds up in the right half of the screen. There are similar keystrokes to create windows, accept shell commands, etc. If I want to do something rare or exotic, there's an Alt-X prefix. So if I want to inspect the window managers data structures, it's Alt-x Alt-i. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 16:22:27 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2D237B405 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.26] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g220Lx809211; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 01:21:59 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 01:18:45 +0100 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:41 PM -0800 2002/03/01, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > "Ease of use" is subjective. Can you (or others) share some examples of > features or common steps/tasks that represent ease of use on a Macintosh? > (And maybe the differences between it and doing it under X11 with a > bloated window manager?) Sorry, I don't use bloated window managers under X11, and I don't use Microsoft OSes. As I said before, I was converted to the "one true faith" in 1984, so I may not be the best person to compare the various interfaces. > I know the new Mac OS looks pretty -- but what type of features makes it > easier to use? (Not counting the ability to use standard Unix tools.) I'd say the Apple-enforced consistency is probably one of the most important things. This is enhanced by the Apple-provided libraries that you are largely forced to use. On Microsoft OSes, A lot of programs will ape the way that Microsoft does things, but they end up having to reverse-engineer the private custom APIs built into the OS & applications, and then when these private custom APIs are summarily changed, they are in serious trouble -- remember "Windows ain't done 'til Lotus don't run"? Well, this kind of thing is so very real. Just wait until your favourite program is the next Lotus. With the magic of Google, I have turned up some interesting links: http://slencyclopedia.berlios.de/gui.html http://eupedia.org/gui.html http://www.rahul.net/kenton/xsites.html > I am curious, because I've been using Macs off-and-on since 1985(?) > including a couple years in journalism school. I haven't really noticed > anything that makes it (Mac OS) easier for me. In fact, the GUI-itself > seems little more difficult than Windows 98. That's because Microsoft has copied virtually everything they have from Apple, the only problem is that they've taken all these bits, thrown them in a blender, and then randomly pulled out the parts they liked. The problem is that they also threw away the hardest and most important part of all the work Apple did -- their strict Human Interface Guidelines. Withough the Macintosh HIG, everything else is pretty meaningless. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 16:41:37 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6776C37B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16gxaf-00011j-00; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:41:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 16:41:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? Whenever I load a huge page or a page with many tables, netscape slows down and usually makes my X unusable for a time (sometimes for several minutes and longer). I don't use Java and this happens with or without javascript. I have tried changing the scheduling priority to different amounts. Anyone use a memory file system for the .netscape files? Any other ideas? (I end up using links to browse huge pages. And konqueror is less reliable than netscape for me.) Thanks, Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 17: 4:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED1137B41E for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from there (ppp31.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.31]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28506; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:03:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200203020103.UAA28506@alpha.vaxxine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: "Paul C. Boyle" To: Paul Robinson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Man is this FreeBSD addictive. Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:05:03 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3] References: <200203010911.EAA15990@alpha.vaxxine.com> <20020301141907.E32897@iconoplex.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20020301141907.E32897@iconoplex.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On March 1, 2002 09:19 am, you wrote: > On Mar 1, "Paul C. Boyle" wrote: > > It's 4 in the morning and all I can do play with this massive toy. > > *cough*,*splutter* > > Pardon? Toy? TOY??!!!?!?! :-) Anyway, you can't be getting *really* into it > if you're aware of the time. Real hackers and Unix-uber-wizards install > ntpd because it's "neat" or "cool", not because they want to know the > correct time. My KDE clock is always in fuzzy mode. > You mean you don't read time in HEX? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 17: 5: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178DB37B420 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:04:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g220eS090458; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:40:28 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:40:28 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brad Knowles Cc: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Message-ID: <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="17pEHd4RhPHOinZp" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:12:28PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:12:28PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > It is 95% of the way there from the Mac perspective. However, it=20 > does not ship with an X server, and getting one to work on MacOS X is=20 > not trivial. It's much more difficult to get it working and fully=20 > integrated with the MacOS X desktop (i.e., in rootless mode). =20 That is no longer true. The latest version of XFree86 runs very nicely on my Powerbook, in rootless and rooted mode. Installation is a snap. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyAH3wACgkQk6gHZCw343UaiwCfWrmAzluRfn+lQcgWroSDRue/ G1EAn1w1LuDQ83DbZg4Dj3ga10P2gk1d =3AEU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --17pEHd4RhPHOinZp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 17:32:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ocis.net (mailserver.ocis.net [209.52.173.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3694937B41B for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from host64.wireless.kamloops.net ([64.114.144.93] helo=phoenix) by mail.ocis.net with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1) id 16gyNm-0004Lz-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:32:18 -0800 From: "Freddie Cash" Organization: PhoenixTek Consulting To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:24:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Message-ID: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v4.01) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-description: Mail message body Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org begin Somewhere around 16:41 on March 01, 2002, Jeremy wrote: > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control > netscape? pkg_deinstall netscape pkg_add -r linux-opera :) Haven't had a browser-related problem in close to a year now. :) Even have Java running now. Okay, okay, so it doesn't "solve" your problem, but it certainly does prevent it. :) Cheers, Freddie PhoenixTek Consulting fcash@bigfoot.com Unix / Networking Services (250) 314-4029 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 17:51:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from excalibur.skynet.be (excalibur.skynet.be [195.238.3.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A664137B41A; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:51:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by excalibur.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g221pC821350; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:51:13 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:36:24 +0100 To: Nik Clayton , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Cc: Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:40 AM +0000 2002/03/02, Nik Clayton wrote: > That is no longer true. The latest version of XFree86 runs very nicely > on my Powerbook, in rootless and rooted mode. Installation is a snap. Cool. Does it just install by the book, or are there any special instructions? I think I'll have to try this out.... -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 17:53: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail19b.rapidsite.net (mail19b.rapidsite.net [161.58.134.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A513937B41C for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 17:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 198.104.176.109 (198.104.176.109) by mail19b.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.60s) with SMTP id 0117503925 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:57:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C802FBC.9B300DF2@pythonemproject.com> Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:49:48 -0800 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.5-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GUI question. References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <15487.43041.865740.420691@guru.mired.org> <3C7FB847.EC3B9AD0@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I use Windowmaker. Two reasons: it starts up real fast, and it has handy graphical config utils Here is a list of all that use a GUI for: 1. Netscape 2. Xmms 3. Nedit for FORTRAN and Python 4. Idle for Python 5. Pan for newsgroups 6. Xosview, I like to see what the cpu is up to :) 7. and of course Xterm, since this is a Sony laptop and I can only get VESA sized console -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.pythonemproject.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 18:13:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8782737B400 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 1CC94FC2; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:13:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:13:18 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Freddie Cash Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020301201318.C3880@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost>; from fcash@bigfoot.com on Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:24:38PM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 05:24:38PM -0800 I heard the voice of Freddie Cash, and lo! it spake thus: > begin Somewhere around 16:41 on March 01, 2002, Jeremy wrote: > > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control > > netscape? This is one reason I have a SMP workstation :P There's no real file I/O happening (unless you're really short on RAM and thrashing the swap), it's just being painfully slow about calculating out the table. > pkg_deinstall netscape > pkg_add -r linux-opera Ugh. Y'know.... It sure would be swell if somebody would come out with a webbrowser that doesn't suck. Nutscrape 4.x is a festering pile of donkey turds. It's also still my normal browser, because it does some things that no other browser will DO. Opera is nifty. Pretty clean, reasonably efficient. The stupid all-windows-in-one UI must die a fiery death though. It works great if you've got 2 or 3 open. It's useless when you get more than 5 or 6, both because it becomes impossible to find the one you want quickly, and because Opera gets draggingly slow as you open more. Opera 6.x is even SLOWER, and non-trivially buggier, so I'm stuck on 5. Mozilla is awesome and I REALLY wish they'd get it sorted out right so I could switch to it. It's bloated, it's slow, but it's THOROUGH. It's not *THAT* much more bloated, after all, than NS 4, in the final analysis, especially considering how much better the rendering et al is. It's a lot slower rendering big tables (like 10 vs. 30 minutes, for some *BIG* tables I've passed through 'em), and isn't near as snappy overall, but I'm sure part of that it just the result of my no-longer-quite-as-spiffy-as-it-once-was dual PPro-200/512k. But the single biggest thing keeping me with NS4? PROGRESS INDICATOR. Earth to browser developers; this is *NOT* a flashy whiz-bang feature that takes years of development and debugging! "X% of ABC{bytes,kb,mb} at D k/sec (E seconds remaining". Opera's got that nice loaded:total indicator, which I'd like (actually, I'd like it in 3-parts, not 2). Opera DOES have, at least, an indicator of the size loaded and the rate it's coming down, but they only work less than half the time, and often just freeze themselves partway through a download (plus they aren't that useful if it doesn't give you at least a total size expected, to say nothing of a quick off-the-cuff estimate). Mozilla just has a gray bar that doesn't tell you much of anything. Konqueror and friends just don't cut it at all; they're neat, sure, but they don't render as well as Opera/Mozilla, they're not really any faster, they're buggier, and they STILL don't have a progress indicator. *phew* -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 18:34:38 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (pc-62-31-42-140-hy.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.42.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420BD37B405; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:34:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g222OWW91348; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:24:32 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:24:32 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Brad Knowles Cc: Nik Clayton , Nathan Mace , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Message-ID: <20020302022432.B90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="K8nIJk4ghYZn606h" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:36:24AM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --K8nIJk4ghYZn606h Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 02:36:24AM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 12:40 AM +0000 2002/03/02, Nik Clayton wrote: >=20 > > That is no longer true. The latest version of XFree86 runs very nicely > > on my Powerbook, in rootless and rooted mode. Installation is a snap. >=20 > Cool. Does it just install by the book, or are there any special=20 > instructions? I think I'll have to try this out.... Download the package. Run it. You get a nice OS X standard installer that walks you through a few screens. It even throws an icon in the dock if you ask it to. Then just customise your .xinitrc as necessary to kick off your preferred window manager. N --=20 FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ (__) FreeBSD Documentation Project http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/ \\\'',) \/ \= ^ --- 15B8 3FFC DDB4 34B0 AA5F 94B7 93A8 0764 2C37 E375 --- .\._/= _) --K8nIJk4ghYZn606h Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjyAN+AACgkQk6gHZCw343VjewCghX5+qPDGoCeWPixBzGKrQ+vS 75oAn3FGW09AyWayef7UTnx9Bjta0gYt =9Ho5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --K8nIJk4ghYZn606h-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 19: 7: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89F1F37B402 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 19:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 60686 invoked by uid 100); 2 Mar 2002 03:06:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15488.16843.420527.534348@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:06:51 -0600 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeremy C. Reed types: > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? > > Whenever I load a huge page or a page with many tables, netscape slows > down and usually makes my X unusable for a time (sometimes for several > minutes and longer). rm -rf works very nicely for me. Actually, I keep it around so I have an "unadulterated" browser for pages that are *really* badly written. I rm -rf ~/.netscape every time I run it, though. > I don't use Java and this happens with or without javascript. > > I have tried changing the scheduling priority to different amounts. > > Anyone use a memory file system for the .netscape files? Netscape has been oinking every since 2.0. Run something else. Seriously. Especially since you don't seem to have Java and JavaScript as a priority. > Any other ideas? I use w3m. When I hit a page that bobby would disapprove of most highly, I hit 2M and skipstone opens on that page. If it sucks so badly that the Mozilla rendering engine configured the way I like it doesn't make it readable and I really need to read it, I hit 3M and up pops Netscape. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 19:12: 4 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C826037B417; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 19:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a072.otenet.gr [212.205.215.72]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g223BnfA009669; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:11:51 +0200 (EET) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g223BjJ22112; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:11:46 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:11:42 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Eric Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: fdisk / disklabel Message-ID: <20020302031141.GA21959@hades.hell.gr> References: <3C7FD9A5.DC70E24E@centtech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; x-action=sign; format=text Content-Disposition: inline; filename="msg.pgp" In-Reply-To: <3C7FD9A5.DC70E24E@centtech.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2002-03-01 13:42, Eric Anderson wrote: > ok, I'm about to crack my head open.. how the heck to I do the equivalent of the > sysinstall fdisk/disklabel for a new disk? I have a small (64mb) compact flash > card I need to set up as a bootable freebsd partition, and can't get it going > for the life of me.. No, it isn't the compact flash, I have done tons of these > before, and struggled with each one, but for some reason, I can't remember the > steps I took to do it. Does anyone have a cookbook or anything that could > help? I've been reading disklabel and fdisk man pages all day, and googling for > hints too.. > HELP! There is a "cookbook" online :) Find it at: http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/formatting-media/ I hope this helps. Giorgos Keramidas FreeBSD Documentation Project keramida@{freebsd.org,ceid.upatras.gr} http://www.FreeBSD.org/docproj/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE8gELt1g+UGjGGA7YRAt/XAJ9dVsqRryo3EvMOCeclxLKXw7TOdACgxK7d Spw9dO2soaL2kDh5650ZFdU= =+Qn0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 19:14:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35D1637B417 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 19:14:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 60800 invoked by uid 100); 2 Mar 2002 03:14:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:14:35 -0600 To: Nik Clayton , Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) In-Reply-To: <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton types: > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 11:12:28PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > > It is 95% of the way there from the Mac perspective. However, it > > does not ship with an X server, and getting one to work on MacOS X is > > not trivial. It's much more difficult to get it working and fully > > integrated with the MacOS X desktop (i.e., in rootless mode). > That is no longer true. The latest version of XFree86 runs very nicely > on my Powerbook, in rootless and rooted mode. Installation is a snap. How well does it integrate apps that expect to run on Aqua, or whatever apple's UI is called? Can I still use them if I'm running X11? Do they expect part of their interface to be provided by the environment, which caused problems for Motif-specific applications on non-Motif window managers? Brad Knowles types: > At 2:41 PM -0800 2002/03/01, Jeremy C. Reed wrote: > I'd say the Apple-enforced consistency is probably one of the > most important things. This is enhanced by the Apple-provided > libraries that you are largely forced to use. I agree with that. It's also one of the worst things about the Mac. To paraphrase, you can have it in any flaver you like, just so long as you like apple. Part of the problem is that the basic design was done using studies of casual users, who didn't use the system often enough to remember things like keystoke shortcuts, or which button selects and which button pops up a menu. I'd have to go digging the numbers up, but a GOMS-level analysis of the X11 bloated window managers vs. my not-bloated widow manager shows that the expected time to complete a window management task is well under 50% for my version. The Mac wouldn't fair as well as X11 does under the same analysis. Thanx, http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 20:26:22 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from durendal.skynet.be (durendal.skynet.be [195.238.3.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC16237B400; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (ip-27.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.27] (may be forged)) by durendal.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.16) with ESMTP id g224Q0g02007; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:26:00 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> X-Grok: +++ath X-WebTV-Stationery: Standard; BGColor=black; TextColor=black Reply-By: Wed, 1 Jan 1984 12:34:56 +0100 X-Message-Flag: Outlook : A program to spread viri via e-mail. Try Eudora (http://www.eudora.com/), mutt (http://www.mutt.org/), or pine (http://www.washington.edu/pine/). But please, get something other than Outlook. Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:23:59 +0100 To: "Mike Meyer" , Nik Clayton , Brad Knowles From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:14 PM -0600 2002/03/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > How well does it integrate apps that expect to run on Aqua, or > whatever apple's UI is called? Can I still use them if I'm running > X11? Do they expect part of their interface to be provided by the > environment, which caused problems for Motif-specific applications on > non-Motif window managers? Well, I've never used it myself, but it should let you use both at the same time -- Aqua apps use Aqua and display on the screen, and X11 apps use X11 and display on the same screen. > I agree with that. It's also one of the worst things about the Mac. To > paraphrase, you can have it in any flaver you like, just so long as > you like apple. There are always exceptions to the rule, but the Macintosh HIG work pretty well for the vast majority of the time. Violate these rules on the Mac at your own extreme peril -- damn, damn few apps have ever done so and managed to actually make an improvement. > Part of the problem is that the basic design was done using studies of > casual users, who didn't use the system often enough to remember > things like keystoke shortcuts, or which button selects and which > button pops up a menu. True. > I'd have to go digging the numbers up, but a GOMS-level analysis of > the X11 bloated window managers vs. my not-bloated widow manager shows > that the expected time to complete a window management task is well > under 50% for my version. The Mac wouldn't fair as well as X11 does > under the same analysis. I'd be interested in seeing those results. -- Brad Knowles, Do you hate Microsoft? Do you hate Outlook? Then visit the Anti-Outlook page at and see how much fun you can have. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 20:42:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mired.org (dsl-64-192-6-133.telocity.com [64.192.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E82C737B419 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 61455 invoked by uid 100); 2 Mar 2002 04:42:10 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15488.22561.561401.514625@guru.mired.org> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:42:09 -0600 To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: OS-X question(WAS:GUI question.) In-Reply-To: References: <200203010532.AAA17582@alpha.vaxxine.com> <200203012019.PAA14268@uce55.uchaswv.edu> <20020302004028.A90395@clan.nothing-going-on.org> <15488.17307.182886.938736@guru.mired.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ From: "Mike Meyer" X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.48 (Python 2.2 on freebsd4) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > At 9:14 PM -0600 2002/03/01, Mike Meyer wrote: > > How well does it integrate apps that expect to run on Aqua, or > > whatever apple's UI is called? Can I still use them if I'm running > > X11? Do they expect part of their interface to be provided by the > > environment, which caused problems for Motif-specific applications on > > non-Motif window managers? > Well, I've never used it myself, but it should let you use both > at the same time -- Aqua apps use Aqua and display on the screen, and > X11 apps use X11 and display on the same screen. Yes, but. I remember the first SunView/NeWS multiprotocol GUI. SunView windows floated on top of all NeWS windows. Always. They eventually fixed that, but it sure was a pain at the time. SO the next question is where does the X window manager fit into the picture? If I try to use it's resize, lower, etc. functions on an aqau app, what happens? I don't know enough about Aqua to know if the converse question even applies. > > I agree with that. It's also one of the worst things about the Mac. To > > paraphrase, you can have it in any flaver you like, just so long as > > you like apple. > There are always exceptions to the rule, but the Macintosh HIG > work pretty well for the vast majority of the time. Violate these > rules on the Mac at your own extreme peril -- damn, damn few apps > have ever done so and managed to actually make an improvement. I think the key words were "of the time". The way people use computers has changed drastically since the early 80s. I hadn't seen any changes in Apple's UI philosphy between then and '98 that took that into account. Lots of new sizzle, but it was still the same steak - and people are becoming vegetarians. > > I'd have to go digging the numbers up, but a GOMS-level analysis of > > the X11 bloated window managers vs. my not-bloated widow manager shows > > that the expected time to complete a window management task is well > > under 50% for my version. The Mac wouldn't fair as well as X11 does > > under the same analysis. > I'd be interested in seeing those results. I'll try to find them. If worst comes to worst, it wouldn't take more than an evening or two to rerun the calculations. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 20:45:45 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-11.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F72A37B416 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 20:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-11.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16h1Ou-000D81-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 04:45:40 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id E63F913040 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:45:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 7FA4622593; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:45:36 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 05:45:36 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> References: <15488.16843.420527.534348@guru.mired.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <15488.16843.420527.534348@guru.mired.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 09:06:51PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > Jeremy C. Reed types: > > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? > > Netscape is about 12 million lines of code, it is a gorilla. There is no known platform on which it runs without dying on you..I would say on my work Solaris system, which involves practically constant use of Netscape googling and the repulsive Netscape mail it dies 1-2 a day. It just disappears. I have an alias set for "rm ~/.netscape/lock". But do you mean netscape 4.7x ? Or Mozilla, or netscape-mozilla, or Linux-netscape-mozilla, or netscape-6-mozilla, or stawberry ice-cream ? Opera, buggy as it is, beats the pants off any other browser I have used. When it gets stabilised I will be very happy. It tends to take up too much real-estate is my only complaint, but at least I can make it readable, which can be quite a challenge in netscape. Oh there is one thing worse than netscape, and that is konqueror. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 1 21:28:59 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.inter7.com (ns1.inter7.com [209.218.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1E97137B41A for ; Fri, 1 Mar 2002 21:28:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20209 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2002 05:28:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO NITEDOG) (12.245.3.129) by evanston.inter7.com with SMTP; 2 Mar 2002 05:28:59 -0000 Message-ID: <000f01c1c1ab$3297c4a0$0301a8c0@NITEDOG> From: "Randall Hamilton" To: "Cliff Sarginson" , References: <15488.16843.420527.534348@guru.mired.org> <20020302044536.GA1321@raggedclown.net> Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 00:29:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, Mar 01, 2002 at 09:06:51PM -0600, Mike Meyer wrote: > > Jeremy C. Reed types: > > > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? > > > > Netscape is about 12 million lines of code, it is a gorilla. > There is no known platform on which it runs without dying on you..I > would say on my work Solaris system, which involves practically constant > use of Netscape googling and the repulsive Netscape mail it dies 1-2 a > day. It just disappears. I have an alias set for "rm ~/.netscape/lock". > > But do you mean netscape 4.7x ? Or Mozilla, or netscape-mozilla, or > Linux-netscape-mozilla, or netscape-6-mozilla, or stawberry ice-cream ? > > Opera, buggy as it is, beats the pants off any other browser I have > used. When it gets stabilised I will be very happy. It tends to take up > too much real-estate is my only complaint, but at least I can make it > readable, which can be quite a challenge in netscape. > > Oh there is one thing worse than netscape, and that is konqueror. > > -- > Regards > Cliff Sarginson -- i have found the best way to keep netscape rock solid and efficent is to not install it....EVER...on any machine. That way..you can listen to how everyone else says its great, and can achieve stability from ignorance. sorta like windows in that respect really.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 2:47:24 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.atkielski.com (ASt-Lambert-101-2-1-14.abo.wanadoo.fr [193.251.59.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B864737B400 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 02:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from contactdish ([10.0.0.10]) by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id g22Akvr42424; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:46:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from anthony@freebie.atkielski.com) Message-ID: <016001c1c1d7$93ce1310$0a00000a@atkielski.com> From: "Anthony Atkielski" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 11:46:56 +0100 Organization: Anthony's Home Page (development site) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why not change browsers? Opera has several UNIX versions of their browser, and if the UNIX versions are anything like the Windows version, it should be very solid and reliable--about 100 times more solid and reliable than Netscape, which has got to be one of the worst browsers around. -- Anthony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 01:41 Subject: Taming Netscape Navigator? > Can anyone share some experiences or advice on how to control netscape? > > Whenever I load a huge page or a page with many tables, netscape slows > down and usually makes my X unusable for a time (sometimes for several > minutes and longer). > > I don't use Java and this happens with or without javascript. > > I have tried changing the scheduling priority to different amounts. > > Anyone use a memory file system for the .netscape files? > > Any other ideas? > > (I end up using links to browse huge pages. And konqueror is less reliable > than netscape for me.) > > Thanks, > > Jeremy C. Reed > http://www.reedmedia.net/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 3:30:11 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F52337B417 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 03:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16h7iK-000ATS-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 11:30:08 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 1EFCE13040 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:30:08 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id 80B5C22593; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:30:05 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:30:05 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020302113005.GD2634@raggedclown.net> References: <016001c1c1d7$93ce1310$0a00000a@atkielski.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <016001c1c1d7$93ce1310$0a00000a@atkielski.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think the message here is, if you can, change browsers. I have to use it for my work. Fortunately I don't have to use it for my pleasure :) -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 7:10:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E4737B402 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 07:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by flood.ping.uio.no (Postfix, from userid 2602) id 7A9A35341; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:10:41 +0100 (CET) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jimmy Olgeni Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study References: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Mar 2002 16:10:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/21.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jimmy Olgeni writes: > Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You > get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ It is hopelessly biased towards Linux... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 8: 8:14 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.nl.demon.net (post-20.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF3E37B405 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [212.238.194.207] (helo=mailhost.raggedclown.net) by post-20.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #2) id 16hC3O-000EDm-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 16:08:10 +0000 Received: from angel.raggedclown.net (angel.raggedclown.intra [192.168.1.7]) by mailhost.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Mail Gateway [buffy]) with ESMTP id 81AE613040 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:08:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by angel.raggedclown.net (Ragged Clown Host [angel], from userid 1005) id CC82F22593; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:08:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:08:08 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study Message-ID: <20020302160808.GA398@raggedclown.net> References: <20020301205020.H4498-100000@olgeni.olgeni> <20020301234342.GA1134@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020301234342.GA1134@hades.hell.gr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.27i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 01:43:43AM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On 2002-03-01 20:54, Jimmy Olgeni wrote: > > > > Hello there. > > > > Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You > > get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) > > > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ > > And yes, bloody yes, I did :) > > I got this link last night, from a Greek channel. > Only got to fill the form today, and I had a draft in my ~/mail/DRAFTS that > was meant to be posted here, but then.. one can never be too fast, with > other BSD users, can he? > Hee hee. The online results so far are interesting, favourite system: HP-UX = 0 Yup, that's just about the maximum points any person would give it (and I have made a living largely out of knowing about it) Debian = Highest score (yup..that figures) You can always tell a Debian user, but never very much. -- Regards Cliff Sarginson -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 8:49: 1 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0227137B400 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16hCgj-0001VG-00; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:48:49 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:48:49 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Mar 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Jimmy Olgeni writes: > > Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You > > get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) > > > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ > > It is hopelessly biased towards Linux... Why "hopelessly biased"? How would you improve it? It was interesting to view the results; and I will be interested when to see the findings when the survey is completed. I see it should have had a few non-Linux names in the "people" question. Jeremy C. Reed http://bsd.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 8:57:57 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478A837B417 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:57:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0060.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.198.60] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16hCpC-0005YD-00; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:57:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C810470.78510E86@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 08:57:20 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On 2 Mar 2002, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Jimmy Olgeni writes: > > > Just in case anybody is interested in answering lots of questions. You > > > get a chance to vote FreeBSD in the poll too :o) > > > > > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ > > > > It is hopelessly biased towards Linux... > > Why "hopelessly biased"? I think it's because you can read the results in the questions without having to wait for the survey to be completed. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 9:23:33 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66B2337B419 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16hDE9-0001WC-00; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:23:21 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:23:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? In-Reply-To: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for all the feedback. My responses are below to to different postings. Plus I have some more comments and questions at the bottom. On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Freddie Cash wrote: > begin Somewhere around 16:41 on March 01, 2002, Jeremy wrote: I don't use Outlook :) > pkg_deinstall netscape > pkg_add -r linux-opera It's probably been over a year since I last used Opera. It was quite unstable and unusable. > Haven't had a browser-related problem in close to a year now. :) Even > have Java running now. I'll have to try it again. On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > There's no real file I/O happening (unless you're really short on RAM and > thrashing the swap), it's just being painfully slow about calculating out > the table. It is also slow for me to just look at long 100KB webpages that have very little formatting (and no tables). > It's a lot slower rendering big tables (like 10 vs. 30 minutes, for some > *BIG* tables I've passed through 'em), and isn't near as snappy overall, You are patient. After a couple minutes, I log on remotely to kill all the netscapes. On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Mike Meyer wrote: > written. I rm -rf ~/.netscape every time I run it, though. I'll have to try that (after I backup my bookmarks to a different directory). > I use w3m. When I hit a page that bobby would disapprove of most > highly, I hit 2M and skipstone opens on that page. If it sucks so > badly that the Mozilla rendering engine configured the way I like it > doesn't make it readable and I really need to read it, I hit 3M and up > pops Netscape. I use links as my browser of choice -- probably around 85% of my browsing. I'll have to see if it has those try-another-browser features. It has been almost 20 months since I have last used w3m. In http://www.bsdtoday.com/2000/May/Features167.html, I said "w3m may become my web browser of choice." I need to try it again. (Thanks for the reminder!) (As for those "2M" and "3M" shortcuts, I also have a shortcut: I have a little app where I first copy/select a URL and then click on this application; left click=lynx, right-click=links, and middle is netscape.) On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > day. It just disappears. I have an alias set for "rm ~/.netscape/lock". I have a script to kill all netscapes|navigators and remove the lock too. > But do you mean netscape 4.7x ? Or Mozilla, or netscape-mozilla, or > Linux-netscape-mozilla, or netscape-6-mozilla, or stawberry ice-cream ? I didn't get into specifics about netscape, because all versions seem to behave the same under different BSD and Linux operating systems. > Opera, buggy as it is, beats the pants off any other browser I have > used. When it gets stabilised I will be very happy. It tends to take up Opera was fast last I used it, but the old versions I used crashed multiple times a day. Netscape is usable for me; usually it only crashes once a week (even when it is used probably over 100 pages per day and sometimes over 25 windows open at a time). I just don't like netscape getting so sluggish that I can't work on anything else (because my window manager, blackbox, becomes unusable.) On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Why not change browsers? Opera has several UNIX versions of their browser, > and if the UNIX versions are anything like the Windows version, it should be > very solid and reliable--about 100 times more solid and reliable than > Netscape, which has got to be one of the worst browsers around. "Should be". I haven't used any full-feature, graphical browser that is more reliable than navigator. On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Cliff Sarginson wrote: > I think the message here is, if you can, change browsers. > I have to use it for my work. > Fortunately I don't have to use it for my pleasure :) Well, I'll try opera again and maybe also skipstone (and other "lite" mozillas). Also, I need to try "dillo" again. It is partially based on gzilla, but has had some sporatic, but active development. But it is lacking many features -- so only an in-between-links-and-netscape option. But what about "controlling" netscape? How or why does it make my X and/or window manager unusable? Has anyone ran netscape as a different user and set different limits/priorities for it? Thanks again for the feedback. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 9:25:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [209.166.74.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D483A37B400 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 16hDGC-0001WH-00; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:25:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:25:28 -0800 (PST) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study In-Reply-To: <3C810470.78510E86@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ > > > > > > It is hopelessly biased towards Linux... > > > > Why "hopelessly biased"? > > I think it's because you can read the results in the questions > without having to wait for the survey to be completed. I never noticed that. I don't recall seeing the results until I chose to after I completed the five pages. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 10:15:47 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (glatton.cnchost.com [207.155.248.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EBC37B400 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by glatton.cnchost.com id NAA13631; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:15:20 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200203021815.NAA13631@glatton.cnchost.com> To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Mar 2002 09:23:21 PST." Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:15:20 -0800 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Opera was fast last I used it, but the old versions I used crashed > multiple times a day. Netscape is usable for me; usually it only crashes I use opera for browsing and netscape for reading news. Opera hangs once a day (I am running tp2) but I still prefer it since it keeps all my open windows open on restart and is much faster and has no annoying freezes. Netscape just for reading news is fine and usually stays up for weeks. Netscape because I have multiple newsgroup windows open at the same time. > But what about "controlling" netscape? > > How or why does it make my X and/or window manager unusable? > > Has anyone ran netscape as a different user and set different > limits/priorities for it? I suspect (but have no proof) that netscape uses some sort of stop-and-copy garbage collector and during the GC phase it is blind to any mouse/keyboard actions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 12:22: 2 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server.highperformance.net (ip30.gte4.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [209.20.215.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A3637B419 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (jcw@localhost) by server.highperformance.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g22KLvi08261 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@highperformance.net) X-Authentication-Warning: server.highperformance.net: jcw owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:21:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@server.highperformance.net To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Intel ISP 1100 Work Well? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone had any problems with an Intel ISP 1100 rackmount running FreeBSD 4-stable? Thanks, Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 12:25:23 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4174037B400 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 12:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from pool0084.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.84] helo=mindspring.com) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 16hG4D-0007ZQ-00; Sat, 02 Mar 2002 12:25:18 -0800 Message-ID: <3C81351F.C63F3687@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 12:25:03 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Software Study References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jeremy C. Reed" wrote: > On Sat, 2 Mar 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > http://floss1.infonomics.nl/announce/ > > > > > > > > It is hopelessly biased towards Linux... > > > > > > Why "hopelessly biased"? > > > > I think it's because you can read the results in the questions > > without having to wait for the survey to be completed. > > I never noticed that. I don't recall seeing the results until I chose to > after I completed the five pages. You misunderstand. I can read the results by reading the questions, without having to read the results themselves. In other words, the survey will get the results it was designed to get, rather than results that tell them anything. Soft scientists seem to be unfamiliar with the term "double blind". Most UI "testing" seems to be designed to get the answers the "researchers" want as well. It's real easy to design a survey to prove conclusions which you already hold to be true. This is not a scientific survey; despite the claim that partial results are not statistically significant, I'd have to say that full results are also not going to be statistically significant. If you want me to take apart the bias question by question, I can do so. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 16:18:52 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from draco.over-yonder.net (draco.over-yonder.net [198.78.58.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98D8437B416 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by draco.over-yonder.net (Postfix, from userid 100) id 3D2D1FC4; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:18:48 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 18:18:48 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jeremy C. Reed" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Taming Netscape Navigator? Message-ID: <20020302181848.D3880@over-yonder.net> References: <3C7FB956.18428.510B414@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5-fullermd.1i In-Reply-To: ; from reed@reedmedia.net on Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:23:21AM -0800 X-Editor: vi X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 02, 2002 at 09:23:21AM -0800 I heard the voice of Jeremy C. Reed, and lo! it spake thus: > > > There's no real file I/O happening (unless you're really short on RAM and > > thrashing the swap), it's just being painfully slow about calculating out > > the table. > > It is also slow for me to just look at long 100KB webpages that have very > little formatting (and no tables). It's not instantaneous, but I haven't noticed any big delays on pages that size (certainly not relative to what ever other graphical browser has). > > It's a lot slower rendering big tables (like 10 vs. 30 minutes, for some > > *BIG* tables I've passed through 'em), and isn't near as snappy overall, > > You are patient. After a couple minutes, I log on remotely to kill all the > netscapes. No, it was a meg and a half (of very compact HTML) of one big table that I *HAD* to get information out of. Patience is irrelevant when necessity comes into the equation :) Why log on remotely? I just kill it locally if I have to (which isn't too often... it rarely locks up unless it's doing something I want done, which it will eventually finish, and the rest of the time crashes close it neatly :) > But what about "controlling" netscape? > > How or why does it make my X and/or window manager unusable? Because it nails the CPU up to the wall. I nice it to +10, which makes a slight difference. Using a dual-CPU workstations makes a heck of a lot more, since I can nail it up to the wall and keep playing mp3's, and still have the majority of a CPU available for interactive response. I fully intend to never use a single-CPU system for a workstation ever again. I like the safety net. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 2 17:16:34 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E84337B417 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 2002 17:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt6-216-180-5-84.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.84]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF8B50284; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:16:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id AC92C3346; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:16:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7955E4C48; Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:16:15 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:16:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Cc: Subject: Fortune Canidate Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum Inc. X-Disclaimer: My opinions are not those of my employer(s). X-Driving-The-Information-Superhighway-Joke: Asleep at the wheel. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "I create art through my destruction." -- Steve Straits (original) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | IM: KrisBSD | HSV, AL. ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message